"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002235ea5c8c15a74b74a101b6217fa281d7\u0022\u003EWednesday, 25 February 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a8361ab53d24758b1dc2da06defb55d\u0022\u003EWednesday, 25 February 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec913a58d1a74b19b9655f37b404b7b7\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022057e70decc4b4591840ed5dd018c2f42\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224080720cf62e402e8c8446e97596a6ec\u0022\u003ELow-wage Earners\u2014Conditions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc33430ae8334cde82f97c0389140f58\u0022\u003E1. HELEN DUNCAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What progress has the Government made in improving the conditions of low-wage earners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002246e6413b66fc49979d4108fe435b1593\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246e6413b66fc49979d4108fe435b1593\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Excellent progress. This Government has increased the adult minimum wage from $7 an hour in 1999 to $9 an hour in 2004. This is in addition to the lowest unemployment rate in decades, 4 weeks\u2019 annual holiday, and 12 weeks\u2019 paid parental leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221432affe5ecc46bf8500f2376bc40b66\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports on the effects of employment relations reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a880b32e92e4706b516f1764c21fe9a\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. As Treasury advice on the reforms reflects, although wide ranging, they are unlikely to have a big impact. This is in marked contrast to the comments made by Dr Brash, who believes we should remove all minimum employment standards, including a minimum wage, minimum holiday entitlements, parental leave, and equal pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d138bedd83c94125ab889e89f3e49ca7\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Government make the decision to raise the minimum wage before or after it saw the Herald-DigiPoll on Monday; and, if we are to believe it was before, would she describe the timing of the announcement as desperate or coincidental?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0571cf7ae074ab3a43f25279de0c264\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I am sure the honourable member is aware, there is a process that takes place for a determination in this matter that started sometime last year. Therefore, the timing of it was, of course, appropriate. It was time to be announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268656722d83943d494a88dcfd64006bd\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has the Government made in its 4 years of office in improving the lot for people employed casually\u2014working people who would like a permanent job but are forced to take casual employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd73eb572f8b498d8fca438a32b9ee58\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member raises an excellent point, and that is why in all the reforms we have not made the distinction between full-time and casual employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226554807276ba44d983c1a023d5e043c1\u0022\u003EHaparangi A4\u2014Settlement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e8806d45c164e0caf12a886f22611c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: In respect of the reported $1.6 million Haparangi A4 settlement, what is the total amount to be paid to the proprietors and is he happy with all the details?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u002286cafb3c9f604779a7cf15e68d8ad841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286cafb3c9f604779a7cf15e68d8ad841\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the Haparangi A4, the total settlement was based on the cash payment of $1.6 million plus the return of Crown shares in the property. I am happy that it has been settled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc496756b4a146fea9de85c46191c078\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I take it that the Minister is happy because he is unaware of the background details, which include the proprietors of Haparangi A4 being given a request for an account that totals $825,585\u2014well over half of the receipts to the Haparangi A4 proprietors\u2014and when will he do something about the Treaty of Waitangi industry, and all the teat-suckers who are on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ceac7f53b9b475099af3318c6b7a159\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Any costs associated with taking this action are a matter for the claimant and his or her legal advisers. There are a whole lot of teat-suckers who have more than their snouts in the trough\u2014 they have their whole heads in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209b36ea847494634ae30b53baeed13c8\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government settle with the owners of the Haparangi A4 trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b952ffcc0ba4fc99bb3ebdbff4abb00\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori owners and descendants of former owners of Haparangi A4 took action in the High Court against the Crown in 1996 on a number of causes of action relating to the Crown\u2019s administration of the block since 1933. Officials recommended that settlement should be completed on the commercial aspects of settling the High Court action without specific admission of legal liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022142aa2d5175b48e094afb6217a8a97fd\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does this new tough talk from the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs about treaty teat-suckers not only having their snouts in the trough but their whole heads, reflect a total buy-in on his part to the U-turn that Helen Clark has announced on the Government\u2019s attitude to Treaty of Waitangi and other race matters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1e68365bdd46668e0010686b249977\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Like my trim, slim new look, I have always said that, and I am trying hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e1e4c649cb42fb9813f5236f933225\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister takes that attitude, then what steps did he or any of his colleagues take to find out the facts behind the preparation of this claim, and what steps did he take to ensure that the details were brought before the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, or his office as the presiding Minister, or is this sort of practice to go on with the people, the taxpayers, and Parliament being totally ignored as what is right and fair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e3bbe347ce24557a5e42a5c628d60cd\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: The settlement is totally kosher, and it is fair. Any business after the settlement related to the cost is between the people we settle with and those who are creditors to those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0ec29841d4c4401a85c83580ba3025e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister not understand his own responsibility in allowing the proprietors to be forced to go through a process controlled by one group of people, namely, Sir Graham Latimer and the Crown Forestry Rental Trust, where $825,000 is claimed of a $1.6 million settlement to 21 operations, of which 15 are in some way associated with the law\u2014and why we need 15 different law firms or practitioners, I do not know\u2014and six others are also to be paid out before the owners get anything at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251d75915919f409f9f7433737e267ecc\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that 23 need to be paid out, and, certainly, there is a long history of people who have sucked off this industry. We are doing a lot better than people did in 1996 and 1998, when they paid out in relation to the kiwifruit settlements in Tauranga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265cbc8e6866741b98beb9f37480c6fa5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Haparangi A4 creditors demand that sets out the $825,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229101099d58554c0b99c1be77c4138cf6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the $92 million-dollar settlement for the M\u0101ori owners of the kiwifruit industry, who were owed a duty of care by Treasury and the former Government and never got settlement until I arrived on the scene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a37fed5a62af4c4db049d866c6bc87d8\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Network Reviews, Invercargill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b375e54d8b30485e888dd2d83208ca37\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Will he cancel the current round of school reviews following the report in the Southland Times that a meeting of Invercargill representatives of primary and secondary schools, education unions, and the city council \u201Cfelt it was inappropriate to proceed with anything assisting with the review, such as making submissions or collecting data.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022933932eb8fae4f289ae1e7a2bc18ece3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022933932eb8fae4f289ae1e7a2bc18ece3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E No. The Invercargill community has gone through the process, and many people in the area are now seriously looking ahead to grasp the opportunities they will get when the changes are implemented. I have said I will look very closely and carefully at submissions before I make my final decisions. If people choose not to give me additional submissions, then they will be at some disadvantage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022246651b44de74d9d86f5b6952be408d1\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister concede that his decision to suspend future school reviews has galvanised opposition to the current round of closures, and does he now agree that it would be more sensible to extend the moratorium to the 11 districts currently under review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228777875c34f141ccbda910f9f3ff88d9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c127f5125284b8388a9a55b59f6c1a1\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: What are the potential benefits of completing the school reviews in Invercargill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619c7dae700744a8bf2c599308fbb36a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Currently, there are over 3,500 spare spaces for students in Invercargill schools. The sum of $33 million will be freed up if those proposals proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298a59496b494d8fb8466f48d061434f\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Why should Invercargill parents and kids be disadvantaged just because their school reviews fell on the wrong side of two bad polls for his Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb1ed4bd3a27420d854b5add622b35c9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Invercargill parents will be advantaged by having a higher quality of education through funding that is currently being wasted on maintaining empty buildings and unused grounds being made available for extra teachers, computers, teacher-aides, and other things that will enhance education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d91e1f9a4d4933a77e2c40443e41e3\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Notwithstanding the Minister\u2019s response to the reviews being conducted in the Invercargill area, will the Minister consider reviewing the position with regard to the Kawakawa-Moerewa area, in order to meet the aspirations of the Ng\u0101ti Hine people to have an educational institution of which they can have a sense of ownership; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b78908596e40bf92e392eb3853ba7d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, when I responded to that question, both that member and the member sitting in front of him, who knows the issues very well, were supportive of the direction I was taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e822623a369146959b7b660cec3f8a86\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the view of Business and Economic Research Ltd that the current round of school reviews \u201Cappear to have little relationship to the economic development strategy of the appropriate region\u201D; if not, can he confirm that at no stage during the review process was he briefed by officials from the Ministry of Economic Development, as stated by Jim Anderton in a response to a written question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f7cc864c32d46c6a9e0e33de85dab86\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have had discussions with people from Business and Economic Research Ltd. I have had a look at economic impact reports. I have seen indicators for South Canterbury, for example, which 2 years ago had 4 percent growth in domestic product, but a 4 percent drop in the number of school-age kids. There is a relationship, and I think the relationship is that strong schools mean that people want to go to areas, and schools that are tipping over mean that they want to leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022367d7e0964ac4bf489381fca1d913f08\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: In the face of threatened legal action and civil disobedience from school boards, teachers, and civic leaders to his plans to close 71 schools, would it not be less stressful on all concerned if he extended the moratorium?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203d82aaf4a71488b8f495f300a75bfb5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot protect people from self-inflicted stress from their taking legal action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b71e6bd976cd4ae8b2073e89ac6f34ff\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Finally, does he not agree that it would be better to cancel the current round of reviews and focus the available resources on ensuring a smooth transition for those schools that do want to close, in the light of his statement yesterday that it will be impossible to get the builders necessary to do all the work to have the schools open for January next year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8ed2967c7e94c2aa1d31e2a021075f1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member should take a lot of care in generalising from a very specific comment about an affected area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ab20d7391254e63bcdc10d0aebcb942\u0022\u003EReducing Inequalities Policies\u2014Reported Comments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220add58196e8f4826aaf6def48f7b7005\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her reported claim that to advocate that New Zealanders should be dealt with on the basis of need not race is \u201Cdivisive\u201D and \u201Ca desperate campaign by a beleaguered party\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00221e03206cc7ba411db1a77f1b38b7bc96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e03206cc7ba411db1a77f1b38b7bc96\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by my view that the Orewa speech set out to divide New Zealanders against each other. Media coverage since would suggest it has, and that is not something the National Party should be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c647e0c40f944b7190176f31dd4353ac\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Given her Government\u2019s spectacular U-turn on these issues, does she stick by her statement made in the House on 17 February, that: \u201CI have no second thoughts about a policy approach designed to pit white against brown, and rich against poor, in New Zealand. I will fight that to my last breath.\u201D; if so, does she now admit that her Government\u2019s policies have been designed to pit white against brown, or is this U-turn just a desperate move by her desperate and beleaguered Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65198b8985349a8a322ca72d19e4107\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly will fight to the death against those policies of privilege preached by the Opposition, because I happen to have a vision of society where people work together and do not set out\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a233f78e8da64b028601110843912ac0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not mind the odd interjection, but there are far too many. The Prime Minister is quite entitled to have an answer I can hear\u2014some interjection, yes, but that sort of interjection, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221490d974db3e446682c52569f86ddd98\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I happen to have a vision for a society where we go forward together and do not see policies based on privilege for the rich, leaving a large, marginalised, brown underclass in their wake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e77e4e31724ad393842649d9190e84\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister have any reports that suggest that before the Orewa speech, regardless of its content, Dr Brash had ever raised anything to do with the Treaty of Waitangi or those issues in his maiden speech, or at any subsequent time before the Orewa speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022453c6dad1b0340e38a93e5ebd3c65e59\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have been around politics a long time, and I can certainly remember no such previous interest by Dr Brash\u2014ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d98f033b84d04cf08fa074ab722a2606\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with the statement made by Jonathan Milne in the Sunday Star-Times that one of the justifications for special assistance is \u201Cthat M\u0101ori have never recovered from having their entire economic base taken in the 19th century\u201D; if so, does she agree that the current National Party campaign relies on the denial of colonisation and dispossession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228128de25e56a421a81fc6441285ce3cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: On many occasions I have found myself not in agreement with Mr Milne, but I would agree that dispossession of the poor is something the National Party is very interested in continuing, while it redistributes towards the rich in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223119d7aa38f44cd59d58dbfb480c355d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Was she sincere when she said that to advocate that New Zealanders should be dealt with on the basis of need not race, to quote her, is \u201Cdivisive\u201D and \u201Ca desperate campaign of a beleaguered party\u201D\u2014was she sincere when she made those comments some weeks back; if not, why has she changed her mind?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f66c5feafe14fb2ad8588c7829ce0e7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I said from the outset, when that speech was leaked to the Government, that it set out to be divisive. It has been divisive, and anyone looking at our media in the last month can see what it has done and the bruised and hurt feelings of M\u0101ori throughout this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a41b1bacd63847899e1a48befe7e981b\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the comments referred to in the original question, and also the Prime Minister\u2019s comments yesterday that the consensus relating to treatment of issues concerning M\u0101ori had been shattered, what steps does the Prime Minister now think ought to be taken to re-establish a national consensus on that issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f5ffa045d974cbf87e233ba2d91f8ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the member says, I have indeed referred to the shattering of what has been a consensus between Governments for many years on how these kinds of issues are approached, and I have referred to the need to find a new balance. I think there is a time now for voices of reason and moderation, and I look forward to working with the member on that, because I know that is where he stakes his place in politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d37e0aa3f9c24edf919e7f9feba01a82\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister admit that her new position on divisive legislation is motivated by polling information, or will she tell the House that she has agreed all along with Dr Brash and her new Coordinating Minister, Race Relations, who told the Dominion Post: \u201CThe treaty is in quite a few Acts and there are principles sitting there quite inconsistently and in some cases incoherently\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c9ba68a075f4019b302494213713212\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have seldom found myself in agreement with Dr Brash on anything, because he brings a lot of baggage to this job across privatisation, pension cuts, and many other things that are abhorrent to me. So the last thing I would find myself in agreement with him on is his setting out to divide Kiwis on this basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229995d6f9172444e0843cae29af58e11d\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: What principle has driven the U-turn by her Government from race to needs-based, and why does she not accept that she and her Government were completely out of step with 90 percent of New Zealanders and, indeed, with the centre-right of this nation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d4119859eb4475bb088240fa042b53c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I pride myself on being out of step with the right 100 percent of the time. That whole question has a false assumption, which is that this Government and Governments before it have set out to divide on the grounds of race. That is not so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8431aa3966a43539bca2e477cfed40d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will she concede that it is her Government\u2019s policies, in particular her policies around the seabed and foreshore, which are proving to be an absolute debacle, that have led to the huge buy-in to the issues raised by Dr Brash, to such an extent that she has tried to change this debate into a racial issue, going to the extreme extent of appointing Mr Mallard, of all people, as the Coordinating Minister, Race Relations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b3b32e89eb449f48580a9896c37c325\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The questioner could not possibly have said those words with a straight face, and he did not. I have said throughout on foreshore and seabed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd997ca3ed7469cb785e6044b0d13dc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I said them with a straight face, and I seek leave to say them again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c105c57421a446cafdf24b3f4a89457\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is overdoing it a little bit. The member has sought leave. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f01128bacb9d477f8164452d12029069\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s face was as straight as it was when he went around south Auckland and would not admit to a single M\u0101ori group that he would cut its funding, which we saw on 20/20. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a83dfa40157b4626b6613e0a92786178\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e05ee5b7d01d4c72bb027abb19986e8f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThat\u2019s right.\u201D, he says\u2014and that is where we get specific. There is not a single thing he would change. That is the truth. Addressing the issue of the foreshore and seabed, I have gone the length and breadth of the country over the past 8 to 9 months saying that this Government will not settle for exclusive possession going into the hands of any group but that we will also respect customary rights\u2014and I heard Mr Brownlee on Morning Report this morning say there are customary rights that should be respected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a79bba4547441184f2d5df747866a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister as to whether\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238edc53dc9c949b9a248b5f7de956e6e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Grasping at straws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205d9326b410449268989bfe7c7b34beb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is very, very lucky indeed. I said the next person who interjected during a question being asked was going to leave. He is very lucky indeed, and that is his final warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291c1c5dbbb584826af46e61ef8633fee\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister as to whether before Orewa, and that Damascus experience, there was anything of any substance different between the National Party\u2019s policy and Labour\u2019s, as best evidenced by the fact that Doug Graham got a knighthood for what he was doing and is now adviser to Dr Brash?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a07fc879ac445ab2aff3582854187a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have not been able to find differences of substance. I would say that this Government has been more generous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5aa318ef254af5899664020d5e94f1\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two documents. The first one is the text of my speech in the general debate, the first one after I became the leader of the National Party, in which I expressed grave concern about the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d44f9df74379496fbd0fcebcbdccd1af\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is. [Interruption] I am sorry, Dr Brash. There is to be no comment during points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e12b127183d649b1901927022d8e7a5e\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the preliminary results of a survey conducted in the Northland electorate of M\u0101ori members on the roll, which showed that 88.75 percent of those M\u0101ori supported the idea that the treaty should not be used as a basis for creating greater civil, political, or democratic rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ff09524b5a84c99969a4ded6afde24e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc7328966d84672b563acd9f99aa73e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table Mr Brownlee\u2019s words recognising that there are customary rights that should exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d92e018ecd34064813555d76e2fb966\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is it her understanding that customary rights, in these circumstances, can be given only to M\u0101ori, not to P\u0101keh\u0101?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1a8181c9b9e45a38a963e1f50e1d8b0\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: In the way in which they have developed under the common law, which is not unique to New Zealand\u2014that is my understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0efdfcd45d24499940601c3eeca5b4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a very well-known speech by the then leader of the National Party, Jim Bolger, in 1990, promising to settle everything to do with Waitangi in 10 years, which we will receive today with a sense of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a4af2b92c4d45089469d0b35fc56e91\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Corporation\u2014Performance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0f96e1eb2eb4442999cd55ecef1647b\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Has she received any reports containing recent assessments of ACC\u2019s performance internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002259b7c836e0c6421da6e23aa7119d653e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259b7c836e0c6421da6e23aa7119d653e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. An Australian report on workers\u2019 compensation comparison shows that, although 6 years ago Accident Compensation Corporation and Australian levies were similar, New Zealand rates are now on average 65 percent less than those of Australia. This gives New Zealand a clear competitive advantage in most industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b227ba84497c4deb854acbebd17e7f48\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why the Accident Compensation Corporation\u2019s levy rates are now so much lower than those in Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022279fcec2c2be4b66a942be77b9b9aeed\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of reasons. As the Accident Compensation Corporation has focused more on injury prevention and rehabilitation\u2014in line with legislation that this Government introduced in 2001\u2014we have kept our workplace injury rates down, compared with Australia, and have provided much more effective rehabilitation. The corporation\u2019s administration costs are about one-third of Australian schemes. We have far fewer disputes, and that is, in part, due to the corporation\u2019s no-fault principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b018f9d76284b37ad0e59da6631ec3c\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any reports or letters that indicate the concerns that physiotherapists have with the endorsed provider network scheme, particularly in Auckland; and if she is aware of those concerns, can she give the House an assurance that she will address them positively?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225ae5d88c76f449cbc70e1c66ec995aa\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am very aware of concerns that some physiotherapists, both in Wellington and in Auckland, have with the Government\u2019s proposed roll-out of the endorsed provider network scheme. Their primary concern is the agreement, which the Government reached during the piloting of that, for there to be no co-payment in response to an increased subsidy to the health provider\u2014in this case, the physiotherapist. That group of physiotherapists believe that it is their right to continue to charge. I cannot, therefore, guarantee that that issue will be satisfactorily resolved, but I am happy to continue to work with them on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5be8987b72143e39127853457783a1a\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: How is our scheme generally viewed overseas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5c062e61ecc48febba4eea6c9ec4916\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Frankly, with envy. As well as the levy achievements that I have just outlined, the accident compensation scheme has cushioned New Zealanders against the impact of substantial worldwide hikes in private insurance premiums. Many observers around the world will be wondering why on earth National\u2014if it ever gets the chance\u2014plans to privatise the Accident Compensation Corporation and expose New Zealanders to similar costs, inefficiencies, and uncertainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022473ba2f2214f42edb4dc7856a0bb64e2\u0022\u003EPrimary Health Organisations\u2014Funding, M\u0101ori \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918ef468a8164d50824a1e4e0c04ef51\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What methodology was followed to produce 20 percent extra primary health organisation funding for each enrolled M\u0101ori, for all deprivation and age levels, and what specific needs does this extra 20 percent funding address?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cf9ed305a2743fda37dec01c09d5248\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I ask the Minister to answer the question, I inform members that she did contact me earlier and advise that the specific answer to the question was seven pages in length. Of course, she cannot give all that out in the answer that she is giving now, but I have told her that she can have a little longer time than usual. At the end of the question she will seek leave to table the full answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00225302eae768f74544b6cc1fb68a6c07b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225302eae768f74544b6cc1fb68a6c07b1\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The methodology has been on the Ministry of Health\u2019s website since 2002, and what follows is an indication of the methodology used. Step 1: (a) assemble historical utilisation rates by age and gender; (b) multiply (a) by $35 per consultation for under-sixes, and by $25 per consultation for all others; (c) weight the product of (a) x (b) by anticipated increased demand and additional needs\u2014children only; (d) add the historical practice nurse subsidy; and (e) add $1.78 per person for health promotion. Step 2: using the above rates, apply weightings for ethnicity and deprivation of 20 percent. Step 3: add high users, and so on. The 20 percent weightings for ethnicity and deprivation are applied to the primary health organisation to provide services to improve access for the most needy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1fb2a84c5440798b06e81b64e6267d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How long does this go on for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1f382916ebf47588cdcc499f5dfec16\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, you gave me permission to make my answer a little longer than usual; I do not think Mr Brownlee heard you say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d283d9535794cf8b3dc423f7293ad31\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought that the Minister stuck within the ruling that I made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b0006bdf10450d824eb5616d8820a9\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Ministry of Health\u2019s head of clinical services, Colin Feek, correct about the 20 percent ethnic weighting for primary health organisations when he stated: \u201CI\u2019ll be quite honest\u2014that\u2019s a slightly arbitrary figure\u201D, and that: \u201CWe just felt that 20 percent weighting was enough to shift the balance. We don\u2019t have any science behind it.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a622d06388ce4ed7837fa5f5d328a19f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Feek was correct, in that the weighting applies not just to ethnicity. The Ministry of Health decided on a 20 percent weighting by looking at previous services that had worked, and used that figure as a weighting in the formula. There is no exact science behind it\u2014it is very difficult to get exact science. It is important to know that the weighting is not just for ethnicity, which is the only thing ACT concentrates on. There are also weightings for age, gender, and deprivation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228202ec973d3a40feb1222dec8764f682\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: Of the factors that attract funding for any public health organisation, which category attracts the highest level of funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdec77e760ae487d8ff0d7a705a50cb3\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The highest level is derived from having a high use health card\u2014for people with the highest need. If people have a high use health card, regardless of whether they are black, white, brindle, rich, poor, young, or old, they attract the highest amount of funding. It is obviously a needs-based policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284fd117750df42c29269ff1d1ec9d5c0\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Is the way that Dr Colin Feek has described the ethnicity weighting the usual way to determine how to spend a huge amount of taxpayer money\u2014that is, there was no science behind it; it was just plucked out of the air as an arbitrary figure\u2014and when will the Minister admit that the implementation of primary health organisations has been a disaster for patients who have high health needs but are denied cheaper health-care because they are not of the right race or do not live in the right location?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdee823cfe3e430a92505d06e462775a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not agree, because people with the highest health needs, as I have just outlined, are those who have a high use health card. They attract the highest level of funding, regardless of whether they are rich or poor, no matter what colour they are, and regardless of whether they live in Kaitaia or Invercargill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228885723d9a254805abf10da295e00e4f\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the Decades of Disparity: Ethnic mortality trends in New Zealand 1980-1999 report, which provides compelling evidence that one reason that M\u0101ori health is poorer, and is in need of targeted assistance, is the new-right reforms of the 1980s and 1990s; and, given that evidence, what does she think would be the likely impact of another term of a new-right Government on M\u0101ori health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e383d8272246d6b88974707f0b1a49\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member may comment on the first part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711ec9ff8d844e33b25c66685f3f6488\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I think any move to new-right politics would be disastrous on the health of the poor, the needy, and those who are relying on a Government like this to ensure they get better health-care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230265fb1b2b54bfab78aa550c6a5b341\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s claim in question time last week that in addition to the 20 percent M\u0101ori funding allowance, primary health organisations also get \u201C20 percent more if they have a majority of people who are elderly or young\u201D, will she table the formula that shows that 20 percent allowance for age, and, if she cannot, will she admit she was wrong and apologise for misleading the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989c964e45a048848e3869fe1cffecb9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The formula is available to the member. I think she needs to listen to what I said. The funding is built on a basic formula, and then has add-ons to it. I am happy to give it to the member if she has not been able to get it off the Ministry of Health\u2019s website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022076116d20705472189fae8ed3557e095\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: When will she admit that the implementation of primary health organisations has been a disaster for patients who are denied cheaper health-care because they are not of the right race or do not live in the right location, for doctors, only 9 percent of whom think primary health organisations will improve patient care, and for district health boards, which are picking up the pieces\u2014for example, by Middlemore Hospital in relation to the primary health organisation that has gone into liquidation\u2014and stop this experiment that is doing irreparable harm to primary care in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a72b59b912404c82b9619d0c02806568\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: More has been done for primary health-care, in terms of the investment of money and concentrating on the needs of New Zealanders, under this Government than we have seen in many decades. I take heart from my meeting this week with the Independent Practitioners Association Council, the organisation that represents the doctors who are in the primary health organisations, which came to me and said those doctors believe the primary health organisations are the way of the future and they want to work constructively with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf6a5bff2a7461b9a8414dcd39f398e\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: If the primary health organisation funding was really needs-based instead of race-based, would the formula not have true causative factors like obesity and smoking alongside age and gender as measures of health needs, instead of race; is she not just guilty of stereotyping?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a11efb692641cbb31b1616b62a38a9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to put in obesity and other issues like that, I would say she would be guilty of stereotyping. What we have in any formula are some key components. Some of the key components that are recognised, not just in the health funding formula but in the formula that was devised for decile funding in schools by, I think, Dr Lockwood Smith, include such things as ethnicity, lower socio-economic status, and so on. That has been accepted in New Zealand for many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b19a41c0cf4145f29c38461c0c796b96\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister considers that it is not race stereotyping to have a race loading because she hides it amongst four or five other factors, what is it that generates the race loading?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213bab918550f45058baa5aa61d93bef2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I find it remarkable that that member does not know that the health status of M\u0101ori and Pacific people in New Zealand, particularly, is worse than that of other New Zealanders. That is not stereotyping; it is a fact. They die 9 years earlier than other New Zealanders, they have more cancers in every category except skin cancer, and in almost every health statistic that is available, M\u0101ori, Pacific, and low-income New Zealanders are worse off than other New Zealanders. Do we not want to address those issues? Yes, we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc14712760cd4a5b8567243f5b744e69\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the funding formula, which shows the 20 percent funding allowance is based on race, not age.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b302e0b5451d4534b16f4a7854c61f12\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister want to table her answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288c02688fce746908b51e92d995c9e0e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is on the website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac3e9f263f2468388674a2e52f4da28\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister advise the House whether M\u0101ori get their fair share of superannuation, and whether they get their fair share of rest home entitlements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288eac486aa6247e08432dbab41b93465\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question, because in terms of paying taxes, M\u0101ori pay taxes too\u2014but 0.57 percent of M\u0101ori are alive after the age of 65 years, in comparison with around 14 percent of the population that is over the age of 65. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022878d1d391dad4a709db35d0daa1586d2\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe that the Minister should be given an opportunity to avoid misleading the House. She appears to be saying that a stereotype is not a stereotype when it is statistically true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc7b694e95d2499bb99a0ef30cbbf219\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. That is a debating point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edf86bef5fcd457980b6a4c1f6d66719\u0022\u003EHector\u0027s Dolphins\u2014Tagging\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226982bd3130dc482caa3e897ac3660e9b\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Will he urgently review the proposed tagging of endangered Hector\u2019s dolphins with satellite-linked transmitters; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00224e5440b3d98b4cafb5602263ca115dc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e5440b3d98b4cafb5602263ca115dc5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E No. I have looked into this matter and given careful consideration to the criticisms that have been raised. I am satisfied that the trial using ultra-light tags on just three Hector\u2019s dolphins is well designed, with meticulous attention being paid to the welfare of the dolphins. Satellite tagging is used routinely on marine mammals overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea8d448cc0764bcb93f701e3368c29d6\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister acknowledge that tagging dolphins is an invasive procedure, which involves capturing them by their tails, dragging them into a boat, drilling three or four holes through their dorsal fins, and bolting the tag in place, and that as well as causing these exquisite creatures to suffer, it may put their lives at risk\u2014therefore, why would the Department of Conservation not use other, safer techniques that give better information about dolphin distribution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f23a3b143943c0a4f9be1c0851461b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Handling any endangered species carries risk, but my department is interested in the conservation of those species. We have great experience in using electronic tracking devices. I remind that member that but for tracking devices we would not have been able to save the k\u0101k\u0101p\u014D, which is a far more endangered species. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264a06d81cfea41f8be350e3002c208c1\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why is more information needed on Maui\u2019s dolphin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022844f2dbdfb964b318e8568b79d96ded1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There may be 150 or fewer of these dolphins left. Time is not on our side. Trying to find these dolphins in thousands of square kilometres of ocean is like looking for needles in a haystack. Aerial surveys are helpful, but we urgently need to know more about their daily and seasonal movements. Satellite tagging could give us those answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221605721ccd8f4abcbeea7d674e104e6e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister explain why the Government is prepared to spend more on a sophisticated monitoring system for dolphins than it is for people on home detention and repeat sexual offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e72fb53daba4f2e872225291ff0305f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have the privilege of being responsible for endangered native species. That question might be better directed towards another colleague. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221845ec87d464fbc910ddfb1beb0711c\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that any discomfort and small risk to the dolphins is preferable to their ending up in a can of tuna; and does he also agree that the Department of Conservation is having a bad day indeed when even its old allies, the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society and the Greens, are opposing their efforts to save an endangered species?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022961bc9204e504bf397c8691b6212ee0d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Department of Conservation, and indeed myself, have a real sense of urgency about saving Maui\u2019s dolphins. There may be fewer than 200 of these creatures left, and we have to take every means we can to try to save them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3bf8e980bc849d2be5e402e0008349b\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister acknowledge that the information that could be obtained by the use of transmitters and satellite tagging is unlikely to be robust enough to support, for example, further restriction on fishing methods, and therefore is unlikely to contribute much to the long-term protection of the species?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6ac657bf08409ba7f86a8904e9a024\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I must stress to the House that the activities that the Department of Conservation will be involved in during the next few days on this issue are just a trial. Just three specimens will be involved. If the trial is successful and provides us with opportunities for further conservation action, then we will certainly look at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec434fbc17b49cd99f9cf5467ccd971\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Department of Conservation go against the advice of its own scientists, as well as conservation and animal welfare groups; and is not the almost unanimous outcry over the proposed trial from groups and individuals who are usually highly supportive of the department\u2019s efforts on species conservation good reason for the Minister to put the proposals on hold, at least to allow further investigations into their validity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267d4f9448fe849e8a48b4f8edd31347c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I would concede that there is debate over these techniques. That is why we are involving ourselves in a trial involving just three specimens. If the trial shows that there are conservation actions we can take, we will certainly take them because we are determined to try to save Maui\u2019s dolphin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225d96eb9797b4cf68c7a6d4dcf95a6b8\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Law Reform Bill\u2014Unions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220623cc485f84bf6adfa4b0ac9e40e57\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: Does she stand by her statement relating to the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill: \u201Cevery employee remains totally free to choose whether they wish to join a union. Employees have a right to make a genuine choice, and protecting choice is a stated aim of the Act.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022b308e8c513ae49a29d82c77ef59392e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b308e8c513ae49a29d82c77ef59392e1\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because the choice is protected by Part 3 of the Employment Relations Act and its amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022816a905e7ca143e0ac30053eb0cb985b\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the incoming Minister of Labour, Paul Swain, along with Cabinet colleagues John Tamihere and Jim Anderton, were all opposed to her changes to the Employment Relations Act because they recognised that that was nothing more than compulsory unionism by stealth, and does she believe that that was the reason she was mercilessly shoved to one side by the Prime Minister; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a791e0b0f14a4988257e2f0240ea9e\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but I cannot confirm that for the honourable member. We always have vigorous discussion, and all points of view are put in our policy making, unlike the National Party, where there is only one voice and no discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022823f154303294a9793cba20eed074077\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Employment Relations Act and its amendment meet all of our international obligations to protect freedom of choice for employees and employers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ba2457b84574de5a9b7e4f4c56aa14b\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Employment Relations Act complies with the principles underlying ILO Convention 87, and also Convention 98.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285b1716e310649a6874ed5b4b47f96eb\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the emphasis in the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill on facilitating collective agreements arising from a genuine bargaining process, is there any guarantee that those workers who want an individual agreement instead can get one if a company decides to offer only collective agreements in order to save on negotiating costs; if not, do employees really have the right to make a genuine choice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ace7f955bbe4f5e8ddd7702a3af172e\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the employees do have a right to negotiate an individual contract with their employer, and if the employer declines to give them that choice, that would bring into question whether the employer was complying with the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226937553593b44b178e994b49a1b03ecc\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that her sacking as Minister of Labour is in any way linked to the fact that she has foisted a set of labour laws on New Zealand business that are unbalanced and anti - freedom of choice; and now, in the face of plummeting poll ratings, how long does she think it will take the incoming Minister, Paul Swain, to reverse completely her amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222044691265874eb8b851c5a00d5c3d0e\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to stand by my record in terms of the employment relations framework. As has been indicated, we have the lowest strike record we have had in years. We have had increased productivity, we have had low employment, and we now have a framework in which the vast majority of disputes are settled, without disagreement, through the Mediation Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002217930a5c647d4283b7603239f123fa1d\u0022\u003EPainted Apple Moth\u2014Spraying, West Auckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741b598eb9fd43d08cd74ad03e033f12\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Biosecurity: Is the goal of the aerial spraying programme in west Auckland to eradicate the painted apple moth; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00221f3e9bec407d493cbe7a74e290564a1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f3e9bec407d493cbe7a74e290564a1a\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Associate Minister for Biosecurity)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for Biosecurity: Yes, the goal is eradication. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry estimates the potential economic impacts to planted forest, horticulture, and amenity values associated with the spread of the painted apple moth to range from $58 million to $356 million over the next 20 years. There are also possible impacts on market access and the conservation estate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc294359d39430696e542c7480a1b12\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister reconcile that answer with spray programme project director Ian Gear\u2019s comment, made when he announced a halt to the spraying in Hobsonville and Meola Creek, that the battle is being won as there has been a reduction in moth numbers; and does this mean that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry is in fact having to admit defeat in the battle for eradication and that the ultimate goal is now one of \u201Cspray to reduce\u201D, rather than \u201Cspray to eradicate\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e40e77470ccf4f6e9d5532dfe767c7d9\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is the reverse, in fact; it is actually a victory. The scientific experts advising the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry have recommended a reduction in aerial treatments, as no sign of moths has been discovered in certain areas for some time. Apart from one moth found in the week ended 18 January, no moth has been caught since May last year, so we are confident that we are winning the battle against the moth. But we cannot afford to take any chances. The reduction will be on an area-by-area basis, and the discovery of any remnant moth colonies may trigger further aerial operations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6b37512e262427abe309bb0be149f69\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What is to stop there being further moth incursions into New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238fc0917d9554d7c8ab2ea4be8c56753\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Continuous improvement in biosecurity. This Government has spent more than $50 million a year more in baseline biosecurity funding than previous Governments, and we have ensured that 100 percent of inward aircrew and passengers, as well as sea containers, are checked. More risk material, such as giant African snails, is being stopped at the border now because we are looking harder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe36e726890c4cb3b2df9756e3545d34\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister assure the people of west Auckland that the department has in place sufficient monitoring controls to prevent the resurgence of the moth, a return to spraying, and all the subsequent inconvenience and possible health risks associated with it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239198a8522664acead7010e6423b8c9c\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The department, obviously from an economic basis, is absolutely sure that it will continue with the surveillance and with the stopping of passage of vegetation to ensure that we do not have a re-incursion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be51879878e74bed97ff3c7012c44c54\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister also assure the people of west Auckland that, when the programme is all done and dusted and the show has left town, the department will continue to have measures in place to advise or treat health problems not immediately apparent at the time of spraying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae9fc96ccb440bda863b93ae48696be\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e9cef6697a44bdba0e9f4e31084ea80\u0022\u003ETreaty of Waitangi\u2014Ministerial Responsibility\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc4aacf47e3422999cf8ed3d33c5043\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Coordinating Minister, Race Relations: Can he explain what is meant by the Prime Minister\u2019s reported comments \u201CMr Mallard will also take responsibility for general issues concerning the Treaty of Waitangi, such as the place of references to the treaty in legislation. There has been no clear ministerial responsibility in this area at all.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220a6482ad53ad4914a557fa9c57c18915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a6482ad53ad4914a557fa9c57c18915\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Coordinating Minister, Race Relations):\u003C/span\u003E My understanding of the Prime Minister\u2019s comment is that while there was some responsibility within the M\u0101ori affairs portfolio for the treaty issues from a M\u0101ori perspective, and there was responsibility for settlement of historical grievances with the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, there was no Minister with clear overall ministerial responsibility in respect of the place of the treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdd2c93d32e403f87922f50059cee4d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Will he accept the offer\u2014given the absolute mess that Labour and National have created in this area\u2014of New Zealand First to apprise him of the questions that we have asked in this House on countless occasions over many years, and the offer to sort out the legislation now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9cea62ae54e4e7da818c31890d8a8b1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: This Minister is always happy to have all reasonable assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e1d30d4351149979339b004ad4779e1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister said that Mr Mallard\u2019s responsibility would be for general issues concerning the Treaty of Waitangi, such as the place of reference to the Treaty of Waitangi in legislation, did she tell him that she had previously delegated that specific role to the Hon Tariana Turia, and I quote from the previous delegations under the name of Tariana Turia: \u201CResponsibility for treaty clauses in legislation\u201D; did she also tell him why Tariana Turia was being replaced, and can the Minister confirm that that was for a degree of incompetence in that role?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9f84011bdf412794f89de59d5c469e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of questions there. I think the key point I want to make is that Ms Turia\u2019s delegation was from a M\u0101ori affairs perspective as a delegation from the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. I think the Prime Minister described my view as an overview\u2014a helicopter view. Anyone who thinks that Ms Turia is not good at putting her point of view is just very, very foolish. But it does not surprise me that Gerry Brownlee thinks that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b46bef509dc437eb8690f451e4a8bf6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, are you going to let that go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022343db57951854d69bd8357c3cd467e4a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Since the member has taken offence, I will ask the Minister to withdraw that very last comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c9267fddfb940a2ae5adfcb2ea25932\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a89e7cb0626744afbfaff308f4a2712b\u0022\u003EWork and Income Service\u2014Placements, Auckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e318ea9d52b4b849425979cc01ea15e\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment: What is the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s Work and Income Service doing in the Auckland region to assist professionally qualified migrants find suitable work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00224cbee5b1675f4ceb9da807511064c094\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cbee5b1675f4ceb9da807511064c094\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Work and Income has a number of programmes to assist migrants into work. One of these is a partnership between Work and Income and the Auckland Chamber of Commerce. This has been very successful. Already, almost 200 people have participated in the programme, with over half getting permanent work in their relevant professions. I would like to record my appreciation for the contribution by the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and its members who have made the programme a success, and I look forward to seeing it grow in success over the years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022293b307486a14ce8b32e24c8ffcb5203\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: How does this work experience programme assist migrants to find work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f6a8f85f9ec4fa7bf04ad68296e82a9\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Because the Chamber of Commerce takes a lead role in the programme, it opens up opportunities for migrants to gain work experience in the New Zealand context. The prospective employer gets a better understanding of migrants\u2019 abilities, and creates a situation more likely for a successful employment outcome. The programme is so good that in the last week the Chamber of Commerce has been approached by 40 new employers interested in the scheme. I look forward to the chamber having continued success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f4eb9bc78d74ea6a91ca8888f51829d\u0022\u003EBill Gudgeon\u003C/span\u003E: If Work and Income is making an effort to assist professionally qualified migrants to find suitable work, would the Minister give a categorical assurance to this House that this will not be done at the expense of our own citizens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a440c86c014e2e83fc0210783b7de7\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Some of these migrants are citizens of New Zealand, but I want to give that member an unqualified assurance that it is not at the expense of any other group. In fact, this Government and Work and Income have been outrageously successful. We now have the lowest unemployment record in New Zealand for 16 years, and we should all congratulate the service on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002221fea68a6966444099e9b12660a64a0b\u0022\u003ELocal Government\u2014Maori\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226da67cb1963e4cff8b0aa7c10851a3cc\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs (Social Development): Does she stand by her comment on National Radio yesterday that: \u201CIt\u2019s very difficult for M\u0101ori people to get into local government because of the so-called democracy of one person, one vote.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9e34ee5e40a4ff687d82c4ee664a936\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9e34ee5e40a4ff687d82c4ee664a936\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Associate Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs (Social Development)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, that is the view that I hold, and if I am mistaken perhaps the member could help me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022540ff5d66ec94738a7bdd71bb102b8a4\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister raised her concerns about \u201Cso-called democracy of one person, one vote\u201D with the Prime Minister and Cabinet, and what kind of democracy would she like to see operating here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260755d15462f4122974ee2f29fd2b2e1\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: The kind of democracy that I would like to see operating in New Zealand is the politics of inclusion, not exclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d276db552ae462abe95524d26cb6cc8\u0022\u003EMita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any information that relates to M\u0101ori representation in local government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236cdfde152f5428da65fd4ef2bdf893d\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: The local government website shows that only 5.5 percent of M\u0101ori people are represented. That does not compare favourably with our representation in this House, which is 16.6 percent under MMP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253387d50d5174a52b926a6dfbe1c074d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister now accept that she made an incorrect statement on the Nine to Noon radio programme yesterday when she claimed that M\u0101ori were not guaranteed a certain number of seats at council tables under legislation passed by her Government; if she does not accept that, then how does she explain the provisions of the Local Government Act that were passed by her Government that provide for separate, race-based electoral rolls and separate, guaranteed, race-based seats at council tables\u2014how does she explain that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223244715f61f24b7780b2eea0f1c3cb7a\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that the legislation provides that local government can make its own decisions about how voting will take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218e394a152794f3fb475c6acd94e457c\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Following her comments about inclusion, does she stand by her comments in that same interview that M\u0101ori deserve special rights because \u201CWe can\u2019t go anywhere else. We\u2019ve got nowhere else to go home to. We can only be here.\u201D, and where does she think seventh-generation non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders can go, because the doors to Scotland certainly are not open anymore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abd6b7413e44b1c8a951ecb97326c48\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly believe that tangata whenua, as the indigenous peoples of this land, have rights as guaranteed under article 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi. I think it would be best if that member put that question to seventh-generation New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807f7889abca4d9e84687b9c90e98827\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 Rulings provide for the Speaker to grant extra questions when questions are simply not answered. It appears to me that a number of questions have simply not been answered; the Minister has just parroted slogans. Is this an occasion when you might grant a few extra supplementary questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f2a54941f424f0494a217dde460164c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228094fd227208485d975e2fcdea51e746\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In my previous question I used a question word, \u201Cwhere\u201D. When one uses that word one expects an answer to include a location of some sort. I asked where the Minister expected seventh-generation New Zealanders who are not M\u0101ori to go, and I did not get an answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223087a65dc2e34d869ec05a3eda3f56f6\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want me to answer the question, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c96a4325f214b4c9204e47a1cfe4eb3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5d6edae49d44720be5559c95cae9a40\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have never ever said to any New Zealander, whether first, second, third, or seventh generation, that he or she needs to leave this land, so I am unsure of why the question has come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229846cbb51f184d7c8497d6df2ec2aeab\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the Minister runs the risk of misleading House. When we see headlines like \u201CTuria suggests Pakeha can go home\u201D, the implication is that if we do not like special treatment for M\u0101ori, we have some other place to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c27a753b6d7455cbc9bbab56fb0f56c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I thought any member of this Parliament could write the headlines in the New Zealand Herald, I would be very keen to apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f8c7b9c3df456f940ebc556731a644\u0022\u003EMita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any local level initiatives to promote M\u0101ori participation in local government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb6d7d90f96483db76ebe6b80cc8e21\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: We are all aware in this House of the good work done by Environment BOP to ensure the inclusion of M\u0101ori people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e60af69fd84d04ae5300ad29de51c3\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: I shall ask the same question again. If the Minister has made comments that M\u0101ori deserve special rights because \u201CWe can\u2019t go anywhere else. We\u2019ve got nowhere else to go home to. We can only be here.\u201D, where does she think seventh-generation non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders can go if they disagree with this Government\u2019s special treatment of M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbc1ae272a3345f4b18e1e2cf3329256\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: I have already answered that question. With regard to the newspaper report that the member was floating in front of us, I think she should put that question to the New Zealand Press Association reporter who misquoted me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d581af2e884255bffdd0c1d47beea6\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a transcription of the Nine to Noon radio programme yesterday that clearly shows that the Minister made an incorrect and misleading statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce67649ae4847ceb2f770aef73bfe1e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that transcript. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209d2004fd1614e5480657cfe0c479051\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table details in respect of Environment BOP that demonstrate M\u0101ori will go from being three of 14 members to two of 11\u2014and how that increases the ratio, I do not understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002225d1b1035cda429cbdaca6e0e5263086\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022145972850c9d4efa8487737de6d3a5bd\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc8ce4b992aa4d4995375f3c134a93d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc8ce4b992aa4d4995375f3c134a93d1\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. What an extraordinary range of opportunities the Government has served up to the Opposition to discuss in the general debate today. We could talk about the amazing back-down on school closures throughout this country. The tough education Minister, Trevor Mallard, went up and down the country and fronted up to audiences and was absolutely resolute\u2014and remains so\u2014about the need to shut down schools. But after the results of two polls, Helen Clark panicked and the policy is dead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe could talk about the equally spectacular turn-round, the back-down, on the seabed and foreshore legislation. The only problem is that on Morning Report today the Prime Minister said she did not know what Trevor Mallard had told the caucus, although a few of the members had contacted her overnight. She said that she was more scared of them than any poll, and she said that nothing had changed. So everything is back to where it was last December. The people whom Katherine Rich spoke about\u2014whether first, second, seventh, eighth, ninth, or 10th generation non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders\u2014are dispossessed of any interest in the seabed and foreshore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI could talk about the sidelining of Margaret Wilson, the hapless labour relations Minister. She is out of that role because of her extreme leftist views or extreme pro-union views. In her place we have the friendly face of the Labour Government\u2014namely, small Paul Swain, who will attempt to inveigle his way into the hearts of business people by telling them that the Government is not going to do this. He will say: \u201CPut in your submissions, and we\u2019ll listen.\u201D But at the last minute those people will be slam dunked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe could talk about the slap in the face for the M\u0101ori caucus\u2014the absolute slap in the face for every M\u0101ori member in the Labour Party in being told, in effect, they are too incompetent in their ministries, their select committee involvements, and their interactions in the caucus to hold such an important portfolio as race relations. Because race relations is such a sensitive area, the Prime Minister has chosen the \u201Cgenteel\u201D Trevor Mallard to take on the role of smoothing the waters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThese are all issues that should be debated and talked about. However, the big issue of the week is the despicable and disgraceful involvement of the Prime Minister in the release of a document from her office; a document privileged between her, as the member of Parliament, and the person who gave that document to the office\u2014if, in fact, it was legitimately acquired\u2014and not only putting that document out into the public arena but being involved in the crime of using that document in respect of someone who had gone to her asking for help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E We need to look very clinically at this issue. I will be followed later in this debate by my colleague Judith Collins, who has a great deal of further information to lay on the Table. It is inconceivable that a Prime Minister who concerns herself with every detail of the Government\u2019s activities\u2014apart from the seabed and foreshore, because, apparently, no one tells her what is going on, although she has a reputation for dealing with the minutiae of Government activity\u2014would not have known what documents were coming out of her electorate office. I think most people in this House, faced with a staff member releasing a document from a constituent\u2019s file, without the constituent\u2019s permission, or the member\u2019s permission, would be sent down the road\u2014immediately. This Prime Minister, who is so fastidious about all matters, says that she was happy to leave the judgment on this issue up to her electorate office staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI do not accept that. I have a strong view that the Prime Minister, last Monday, knew that the document concerned had been given to Lianne Dalziel by a staff member in the Prime Minister\u2019s office, without the permission of the person mentioned in the document, and without the permission of the Prime Minister herself. The other explanation is not believable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfa2bf1409ab412c9a3c6410d08e3bde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfa2bf1409ab412c9a3c6410d08e3bde\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I will ask the National Party members, through this debate, one question. What will they do about people like Lily Fraser? For the people who did not see 20/20, Lily Fraser was the M\u0101ori doctor in south Auckland who met Gerry Brownlee. He was asked the question: \u201CWould this woman, who met all the standards to become a doctor, who passed the exams without anyone knowing she was a M\u0101ori\u2014because there was a number on the bit of paper\u2014be allowed to be a doctor under a National Government?\u201D. That was the question. What did Gerry Brownlee say? Gerry Brownlee said: \u201CWell, that\u2019s not our call. In fact, it never would be under a National Government.\u201D But what did Don Brash say? Don Brash said that not only would she not be allowed to be a doctor but also that he would cut the university funding. That is what he said. He said that if the University of Auckland continued with that approach, then they would have their funding chopped. They would go out of the system. It is their choice. Gerry Brownlee says that Auckland University is faced with a choice. It can either have Government funding\u2014millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars a year\u2014or it can have Lily Fraser. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225468ca7d817c448387c048866aea9403\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Their choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1341cebaabd4ba4a31412b61679aaf9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: That is the call that Auckland University has to make. Who really thinks it is the university\u2019s choice, in that case\u2014whether they are going to have their entire Government funding stopped by the National Party for encouraging competent M\u0101ori doctors. That is the call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350717b907614e86a8c4ba0369bbc481\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s close to blackmail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c46c260b9f473ca88504f3b4e49599\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the approach. Let us look at one or two other issues. [Interruption] No. At one stage we have Gerry Brownlee saying: \u201CYes, she can become a doctor.\u201D; Dr Brash says: \u201CNo, she cannot.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to ask some other questions of this dithering Leader of the Opposition. When asked whether he would appoint a Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, what did he say? He said: \u201CI haven\u2019t crossed that bridge yet.\u201D He has thought about this issue, deeply considered it for years\u2014but he had not crossed that bridge yet. Would he axe M\u0101ori television? \u201CI\u2019m not sure.\u201D says Dr Brash. That is a decisive approach on the part of the Leader of the Opposition! Would he abolish M\u0101ori scholarships? \u201COh! I\u2019d like to think about that.\u201D, says Dr Brash. It is all very well to swagger up to Orewa and make a speech, but what I think is important is when Dr Brash jumps into an area about which he knows very little\u2014other than his one experience in the area, as Governor of the Reserve Bank, when he set up scholarships for M\u0101ori. Those scholarships were so successful that he doubled the number of them. If he were still the Governor of the Reserve Bank I could call him a hypocrite, but he is not, so I cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWhat we have is someone who says one thing out there, and has one set of practices. He makes a speech, and he has some strong views in that speech, but in the end, when the hard questions come, he says he will cut the funding from the university. I understand he has apologised at the moment to all the M\u0101ori doctors for suggesting that their exam standards were lower, because he knew that would be untrue. Why he made it up and told lies out there\u2014I know he cannot lie in here\u2014I do not understand. But what I really do not understand is why, now, he cannot answer some of these fundamental questions. Why would he cut the university funding? Would he appoint a Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs? If National members really want someone who has thought about these issues, they should appoint Winston Peters as their leader!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022762ba7d254f24c6a921f11dde33632b8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member on my right knows that the word \u201Clie\u201D cannot be used in this House. I ask him to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022737974d1b42c4c5f9f7b6102734a07e9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e8762a9c6c47cd841d72833e49f193\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: There was no apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265bb77d20f64808adff766459d6480d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9f8a7f057c9409a8ef17a2386851736\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, there wasn\u2019t. He did not apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c526a2bb707d4d79a5888fc85412008d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member withdraw and apologise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f49bf9c3d3d64723af7ca052bc86e2d4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022340e362021f74d82adef7c1b673faab2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Do I take it that the inference around that statement is now struck out of the Hansard record?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9fb2dc644146259c4e68537e5a9453\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has withdrawn and apologised, and I think that is the main thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f00db84f2ba4da4895b2a870352548b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: So he is able to use the floor of Parliament to accuse an honest man of lying, and then have it put in the record of the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9d296d7870f4887a85578b4b9d2458c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The issue has been dealt with, and it is up to the individual member and the Hansard Office as to how it is actually dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7c52561cd4d43319f8f0ef8f698510d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was aware, of course, that one could not use that word in relation to comments that members have made in the House. I wonder whether you could rule on what redress members have when someone says outside the House, as Dr Brash did, something that was untrue; something they knew to be untrue and later apologised for. What redress do we have in this House, and how can we draw attention to those sorts of inconsistencies of approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237499d36d304698a4f923e03faf8ba6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226edfbe4c12de45648d5860f5bda43171\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The party that is under attack should be able to contribute to that point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d128ae9f184422b9998287fef6ef131\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to rule on it, and if the member is not satisfied, he can come back to me. No matter what is said, it is a personal reflection upon another member. It is covered under Standing Order 116, and members know full well under Speaker\u2019s ruling 40/3 that calling a member a liar is an offence against the dignity of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1d72877daa44315941dc84ef6a95cd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1d72877daa44315941dc84ef6a95cd5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Today New Zealand First offered Labour a way out of the tangle it is in over the foreshore and seabed. We offered Labour New Zealand First\u2019s 13 votes to place the foreshore and seabed in Crown ownership to hold in trust for all New Zealanders. All we ask in return is for the Crown to have legal title that will eventually be extended to other parts of the environment. Traditional rights can be of use and can still be protected, but they must not be described as a property title. A property title means ownership, and I believe that simply will not be accepted by the mass majority of New Zealanders, of all backgrounds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe present mess, worrying hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders, is the result of years of treaty madness. Labour and National have been equally insane and they have their fingerprints, their DNA, and their blood all over their hands. The record proves it. No amount of Damascus-type experience will change that in 2004. The essence of sound politics is to be consistent\u2014to say what one means and to mean what one says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ba25f74fedc456b9bf08f63ec6f7497\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b844bdbc4834463aa7d539e532dc91d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: National members find that rather comical, because it has come as an absolute surprise to them. But who was it that threw me out of the darned caucus the day after I opposed the Sealord\u2019s deal? It was that party over there, the party that seems now to say: \u201CWe\u2019ve had no part in this mess.\u201D Who was it that gave Doug Graham a knighthood for his Treaty of Waitangi mess and waste in enormous areas of M\u0101ori development in New Zealand? It was the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has always held to the principle of being consistent, and we will help the Government to get rid of the vague treaty principles that have been infecting legislation since the 1980s. Whilst I am at it, where is this man who is a lion in front of the Rotary clubs and a lamb in Parliament? Where is this new orator I keep hearing about from the New Zealand media? They say this man has struck some great chord. Do they not understand that it will fade away very shortly? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8ad4752ec4245eba7ed4df8d321605c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f970e304936f4b51b5615f7954852a8a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, they will laugh, but they will not be laughing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225563a1576e0541adb7b9c97439c2350e\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What did he say today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220833cec3f6ef4c748caab1178f0d6f12\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Where is the person who is meant to be out there leading the charge on this issue? Well, unfortunately, he has listened to Gerry Brownlee, and it will not be long before it will be a jerrycan of issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand First Party was formed on issues like this. In our founding principles we say we believe in one law for everybody. Can that be found in National\u2019s policy? No, it cannot. Can it be found in Labour\u2019s policy? No, it cannot. We are talking about destiny, and to those people in National who think they will win the next election, I tell them to stop dreaming; it is not going to happen. It is simply not going to happen. No amount of ACT party support, with its 1 percent in the polls, will be of any merit whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAt the last election we campaigned on fixing three things in 3 years. One was the Waitangi industry and separatist development in New Zealand. That was our campaign theme: to get rid of the treaty gravy train and separate development in this once-great country. Now is the time for action. Now is the time for putting aside the past and doing something concrete with regard to New Zealand\u2019s future. It is not a time for political correctness. It is not a time for the political tyre kickers, the bandwagoners, and the political poltroons in the National Party, who, as I said, have their DNA all over this issue. They might have had a bright, shining light in respect of this issue, but it is one on which they have no belief and commitment. As Mr Mallard rightly points out, every time Don Brash is asked what his policy entails, he does not know the answer. When he is asked: \u201CWill you do this?\u201D, he says: \u201CWell, I haven\u2019t thought about that yet.\u201D, or: \u201CWill you get rid of this?\u201D, he says: \u201CNo, I haven\u2019t really come to that bridge yet.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc812e0324bd4cfb93902f23f4ca0b34\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Waiting for Georgina.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255be6e5af6d04c1ba3a242839af280e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: What has happened to Georgina te Heuheu? Well, he cannot tell members that, either. It is a mess. How can he make a speech and claim to be definitive, without having any background knowledge of what he would intend to do and what his policy is? In this party called New Zealand First is the image of New Zealand the way it will be one day very shortly. Here are people of all backgrounds: European, M\u0101ori, Scots, Irish\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bae40a5e778643f097a572fedd2be183\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Chinese.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f66c961235840a7b4adc860dc95901c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014part-Chinese. But we stood on one franchise. Unlike those National people, we disowned ever going down a path of double franchise, and we are here today, as no other party is, with fair representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002275d35c47e73a47d2869c7bc4ba81376e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275d35c47e73a47d2869c7bc4ba81376e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Fairness in government\u2014and, indeed, good governance\u2014is about respecting cultural difference and not favouring one culture over another. Real leadership in our country should draw people together, not tear them apart. It is about giving people a fair go. Contrast the actions of the Prime Minister with those of the Leader of the Opposition. Helen Clark has demonstrated throughout her whole political life a commitment to engaging in a positive way with the increasing diversity that is the reality of our country. Two weeks ago I attended the Chinese Lantern Festival in Albert Park, with the Prime Minister. Last week we attended a sports event, organised by Muslim youth. Next week we will attend an event organised by the Ghanaian community in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe Leader of the Opposition seeks to divide our communities. He is not embracing the diversity that is a reality of our country and, indeed, of the whole world now. He seeks to take us back to a sort of golden age\u2014which means, of course, white and middle class. In reality, that was never the case in our country. Right from the earliest times of European settlement, we have contained racial and socio-economic diversity: Dalmatians, Chinese, Indians, joining Scots, Irish, and English, and others in the early settlement period. We had a great division of wealth. The Irish, from whom I trace my descent, were the working class in those days and were actively socially discriminated against. Indeed, from the earliest times, we put a poll tax on Chinese migrants and imposed on them legally enforced racism. Since the time of the treaty we have been a diverse and multicultural society, and that is, indeed, no bad thing. Accepting difference and embracing diversity is positive. It creates social stability and promotes a fairer community for everyone\u2014not just for European New Zealanders, not just for M\u0101ori New Zealanders, not just for Chinese New Zealanders, but for everybody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EWhat are the options if we do not do that? Let us cast our minds around the world and see what happens when people get involved in race-based policies. Everyone here grew up with the struggle against apartheid. We know what the effects of that system were on South Africa. It blighted that country\u2019s development for many generations, and it pays the cost today as it drags itself out of that system. In Northern Ireland, where some of my ancestors came from, there is today a community divided against itself. The simplistic analysis would be that it is about religion, yet religion does not divide us here in this country. The situation in Northern Ireland is compounded by history and by a sense of grievance. We too will enter that world if we embark on this dangerous path of race-based policies. If we give a minority in our country a growing sense of oppression, a growing sense of not being listened to, a growing sense that their needs in health and education are not being met, and a sense that their own cultural identity is being suppressed and is not being developed or accommodated, then we will go down the path of Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Spain with its Basque issues, or Turkey with its struggle against the Kurds. Those are the living realities. Those are political situations that the world faces today because of diversity and difference not being accommodated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EBecause of the speech at Orewa, we face a real chance that that is the path we could embark on. I say to the Leader of the Opposition that he should beware. Since 1840 this country has attempted\u2014at times less successfully than at others\u2014to embrace diversity. Successive Governments, whether they be Labour or National-led, have embraced M\u0101oridom and sought to accommodate that separateness\u2014to meld us together as one people. We are not all the same and we can probably never be all the same. We can never be all the same, but we can be equal. If we start saying now, in 2004, that we are the same, and people have a sense that we are not, trouble is ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EAgain, I remind the House of Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Spain, Turkey, and many other examples in the world today. That is the danger the Leader of the Opposition has opened up. I say to him that he should beware of the lessons of history. This country began as a partnership between peoples in 1840. Sometimes that has been an unhappy partnership, but we have kept it peaceful. We have all the recipes for violence. Let us not go down that path.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00223d4183c01ee74b7498fcde51161dd18d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d4183c01ee74b7498fcde51161dd18d\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E Why was Lianne Dalziel untruthful? She was protecting her leader. In this instance, all roads lead to Helen Clark. Lianne Dalziel was untruthful about how the media got the \u201Cguinea pig\u201D letter. She was untruthful to the New Zealand Press Association on Monday, 16 February. She was untruthful on Radio New Zealand\u2019s Morning Report on Wednesday, 17 February, and she was untruthful to Television One\u2019s Sunday programme later that same morning. In the House, later in the afternoon, she confessed. Yet Helen Clark did not sack her. Helen Clark\u2019s reaction was: \u201CWell, she has been misleading.\u201D The Prime Minister supported her because Ms Dalziel was supporting the Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOn Wednesday morning, Ms Dalziel was protecting the Prime Minister when she refused to say how the \u201Cguinea pig\u201D letter had got to her, but she did say that it was sent independent of TV3. In fact, if we can believe anything said by the Prime Minister\u2019s office or by Lianne Dalziel, the \u201Cguinea pig\u201D letter was sent, not once, but three times in one month to Ms Dalziel\u2019s parliamentary office\u2014first on 3 February, then on 13 February, and again on 16 February. Why was it sent again and again? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAre we expected to believe that Helen Clark\u2019s electorate office sent through the \u201Cguinea pig\u201D letter three times within 13 days, or is it true that the second faxing was done by the Immigration Service? We do know that the \u201Cguinea pig\u201D letter did not come from the lawyer\u2019s office. It was never in the lawyer\u2019s office. The lawyer received the decision from the Refugee Status Appeals Authority and a covering letter. She took the covering letter with her when she went to see the girl. The lawyer made some notes of legal advice and drew a guinea pig, because when she talked to the girl about different pets, the girl did not know what a guinea pig was. Did the lawyer get the girl a pet? Yes, she did, but it was not a guinea pig, it was a cat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe lawyer gave the \u201Cguinea pig\u201D letter to the girl to keep. It was kept by her bed, and the last time the lawyer saw that letter was the day the girl was bundled up, drugged, and flown out of the country on Thursday, 12 February. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E The State Services Commissioner has now published terms of reference for an inquiry into the actions of the staff of the Immigration Service and the Parliamentary Service. Will it do any good? No, it will not\u2014not a bit. The inquiry will not be able to look at a whole lot of different things, including the role of other groups in obtaining the \u201Cguinea pig\u201D letter\u2014in particular, the role of Shakti, the group that is headed by Farida Sultana, who just happened to be working out of Helen Clark\u2019s electorate office at the relevant times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt will not be able to look at the role of the Prime Minister\u2019s ministerial staff. It will not be able to look at the role of the Prime Minister in perpetrating untruths around the media, as her press secretary was doing as late as 5.30 last Thursday night. How do I know this? Because I saw her press secretary doing it. The inquiry will not be able to look at why Ms Dalziel could not tell the truth about the leaking of that document, who she was covering for, and why it took until Friday afternoon until she was sacked. Finally, it will not be able to look at why Helen Clark tried to stop the media from investigating this matter\u2014because she did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAre we expected to believe that this Prime Minister did not know about this matter? Are we expected to believe that this Prime Minister did not know what her close friend of 30 years Joan Caulfield was doing? Are we expected to believe that this Prime Minister tried to shut down media interest in the story, but did not know what her own Ministers and staff, including her press secretary, were doing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis Prime Minister is worried. She is worried enough to drop her close friend of 30 years Joan Caulfield into the mud. She is worried enough to drop her close friend Lianne Dalziel, as well. The Prime Minister is worried because she is involved, and this State Services Commission inquiry is intended to leave her untouched. It will simply be a whitewash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cffa7ccf860b4ba98094a2aa70af4b5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cffa7ccf860b4ba98094a2aa70af4b5e\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It must be admitted that Don Brash\u2019s Orewa speech, and the subsequent rise in the National Party\u2019s popularity in the polls, is sending a clear message to this Parliament. Arising from the speech itself, it seems clear to me that we are probably now in agreement on two points. The first is that the historical iwi and hap\u016B-based grievances arising from breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi need to be settled, and settled quickly. That is an issue that United Future has continually voiced support for since entering Parliament in 2002. My colleague Murray Smith has successfully appealed to the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, the Hon Margaret Wilson, for more resources in that regard. Likewise, having listened carefully to exchanges in the House over the last couple of weeks, it seems to me that all parties now agree that access to Government funding entitlements should be unambiguously based on need rather than on race\u2014although, personally, I am not yet clear where the Green Party stands on that issue. I note that Don Brash is effectively repeating the dictum made famous by Michael Joseph Savage\u2014namely, \u201Cto each according to their need\u201D. So while some things change, others tend to stay the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI draw the conclusion that Dr Brash\u2019s speech has struck a chord with New Zealanders for other reasons, as well. Many of the New Zealanders I encounter feel less than confident about their place in the world. They are seeking an answer to the overarching question: what does it mean to be a New Zealander? This is a question, interestingly enough, over which Don Brash himself stumbled during his interview with Kim Hill. In that context, I want to renew United Future\u2019s call for a national debate on the question of a written constitution. When the Prime Minister has been asked about this, I have heard her say that we already have a constitution. If that is the case, let us bring a sampling of year 10 students into the House to tell us about their understanding of the New Zealand constitution. Let us then compare what they say with the response from their equivalents in Australia, the USA, and the Netherlands\u2014all nations that have written constitutions. I believe that we would find the difference to be like night and day. We would find the young people from those other three nations confident about what it means to be American, Dutch, or Australian. They would understand their rights and privileges and the way their Government works. It would be no accident; rather, it would be the result of a deliberate educational programme in their schools, aimed at empowering and emancipating their citizens. In contrast, New Zealand has no such programmes, because we have no such constitution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWhen voices as diverse as Sir Tipene O\u2019Regan, Chris Trotter, and Peter Dunne begin to say that we need a written constitution, it is incumbent upon us to read the signs of the times and be prepared to move forward, and move forward quickly. With a written constitution\u2014I say to Dr Brash\u2014perhaps year 10 students, younger and older students at our schools, and all the rest of us, can move forward to having a new and deeper understanding of, and to being confident about, what it means to be a New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00221046bdfa02a34a2b8b07e3a9cf2653fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221046bdfa02a34a2b8b07e3a9cf2653fd\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the Green Party, I congratulate Paul Swain on his appointment as Minister of Immigration, and wish him well. A couple of important cases\u2014that of a Sri Lankan girl, and of Ahmed Zaoui\u2014were mishandled under his predecessor, and we would like the new Minister to look at them with fresh eyes. Both cases should have been approached with more compassion, recognising that two people were really hurting, and that with a little effort New Zealand could have ended their suffering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe first case is that of the 16-year-old Sri Lankan girl so heartlessly deported, along with her grandmother, on 12 February. Unfortunately, the Refugee Status Appeals Authority got it wrong. The Associate Minister of Immigration, Damien O\u2019Connor, did not correct the mistake, and deported the girl on the basis that a care plan was in place for her in Colombo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ELet us look at where the Refugee Status Appeals Authority got it wrong. It correctly judged that the girl had been subject to sexual abuse by members of her family, and that she would qualify as a refugee on these grounds, if she had a legitimate fear that she would be harmed if she were returned to Sri Lanka. However, the authority was convinced that her family could help her in Colombo, her uncle being a policeman, etc., etc. It is clear from TVNZ\u2019s Sunday programme that family members, other than her grandmother, were not willing to help the girl, and would not be available to protect her from what the authority admitted was possible revenge by one of her abusers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAssociate Minister Damien O\u2019Connor, in justifying the deportation, said that a care plan was in place, and indicated that family members were involved. It transpired that no family member was contacted about such a plan, and that the only plan\u2014arranged just before the girl\u2019s departure\u2014was temporary accommodation in a Catholic convent. It was obvious to all New Zealanders that the girl was not fit to travel to Sri Lanka, being so highly distressed, and having not eaten for some time. To make matters worse, she was illegally drugged en route. She is still very upset. The least the new Minister could do in recompense for this disgraceful episode is offer the girl and her grandmother a place in New Zealand, if they wish to take it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe second case grossly mishandled by the new Minister\u2019s predecessor was that of former Algerian MP Ahmed Zaoui, who has been imprisoned in New Zealand for over 14 months. The security risk certificate imposed on Mr Zaoui by Ms Dalziel nearly a year ago is clearly without foundation, judging by the Security Intelligence Service\u2019s summary of allegations, which were finally made public last Friday. The summary refers to a video made by Mr Zaoui, laughably called a \u201Ccasing\u201D video. As Mr Zaoui told me from prison last Sunday, he would hardly have put his own face in a casing video, or included it in his luggage when he flew to New Zealand to claim asylum under his own name. We will all now have to be careful about what we film on our holidays. The SIS absurdly stated that the videoing of a tourist bus and an Internet cafe is evidence of Mr Zaoui\u2019s terrorist aims. The fact that Mr Zaoui, a devout Muslim, visited one of the two mosques in Hanoi was deemed by the SIS to be very suspicious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe SIS summary then repeats the accusations made against Mr Zaoui during court trials in Belgium and France, and on his expulsion from Switzerland. Every last one of these accusations was thoroughly discredited and disproved in the Refugee Status Appeals Authority\u2019s determination, which came out after the security risk certificate had been imposed on Mr Zaoui. After the authority\u2019s decision came out, the then Minister of Immigration should have lifted the security risk certificate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E It should be noted that the Refugee Status Appeals Authority, which met concerning the Zaoui case, went to huge trouble to get all the relevant documentation from overseas\u2014from Europe in this case\u2014unlike the differently constituted Refugee Status Appeals Authority in the Sri Lankan girl\u2019s case, which obtained very little information from Sri Lanka. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe fact is that the Refugee Status Appeals Authority in the Zaoui case has embarrassed intelligence services in Europe, which retailed slanders from the Algerian regime against Mr Zaoui. But this does not justify us keeping Mr Zaoui in jail here. The security risk certificate against him should be lifted, and Mr Zaoui should be allowed to take his place among us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022e28d26a9ca64464f8bff8f7b4361c047\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e28d26a9ca64464f8bff8f7b4361c047\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that the Leader of the Opposition wants to have a debate about important questions. I have some important questions. But first of all, let us just recap on some of the answers the Leader of the Opposition has given in recent times. He has been asked whether he would appoint a Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. The answer was: \u201CI haven\u2019t crossed that bridge yet.\u201D Would he axe M\u0101ori TV? The decisive Mr Brash said he was not sure. Would he abolish M\u0101ori scholarships? \u201CAh, I\u2019d like to think about that.\u201D, he said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWell, I would like to ask the National Party about its policies of need. The country is asking why Dr Brash needs $160 per week more to live on. Is it because he has come down from a salary of $550,000 a year to $195,000 a year? Is that a policy of need? To compensate him for that terrible drop in income he needs $160 per week? Is that the National Party\u2019s idea of looking after need\u2014Dr Brash\u2019s need? Or maybe it is to help him wash his socks. He is well known for washing his socks. Maybe he wants to get somebody else to wash his socks for him. The amount of $160 a week would wash a lot of socks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EOf course, Dr Brash does not want poor workers to have a minimum wage of $9 an hour. No, he is opposed to that. He does not think they should get 4 weeks\u2019 holiday, sick leave, or anything. It would not cost $160 a week, so he does not need that. Or maybe Dr Brash needs to buy more Neil Diamond CDs, because, as we know, his taste in music goes in that direction. But for $160 a week he could go to The Warehouse and buy the entire collection of Neil Diamond\u2014so no, $160 a week is not to replenish his Neil Diamond CD collection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EMaybe, just maybe, it is because he needs $160 a week to save for retirement, because as we know the National Party does not think that elderly New Zealanders should get the level of superannuation they get now, and it does not believe in Dr Cullen\u2019s ideas that superannuation should be funded by a superannuation fund. So maybe Dr Brash needs $160 a week more in his pay packet to get ready for retirement in a couple of years, because we know he is not too far off retirement. Or maybe he is thinking he will shift the age of retirement to 70, because that is the other way that National Party policy has gone\u2014either cut the level of superannuation or put the age out to 70. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ESo maybe the needs-based policy of the National Party is to give Dr Brash and his colleagues $160 a week to get ready for retirement. Or maybe it is to have the lumps taken out of their throats surgically. They have spent so much time flying back into New Zealand at the taxpayer\u2019s expense, the lumps have built up. People like Judith Collins, who is well known for overseas travel, would have a lot of lumps in her throat as she came back to New Zealand and felt the guilt of who paid for those trips, along with Dr Brash, who used to travel at the taxpayer\u2019s expense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ESo we would like National Party members to tell us all about this policy of looking after people in need. I would like them to tell the people in my constituency who are on $20,000 or $30,000 a year why they get nothing and Dr Brash gets $160 a week. Why does he need that, and they do not? Why do poor people in New Zealand not deserve a tax cut of $160 a week, but Dr Brash needs $160 and therefore he should get it because the National Party believes in looking after people in need? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis Government has dealt with the needs of New Zealanders, rich or poor, black or white, brown or yellow, or whatever they may be. If there are children in our community who are not immunised and need it, we put programmes into place to make sure they are immunised. If a lot of those children are Pacific Island children, it is quite sensible to use Pacific Island nurses to do the immunisation. But that is terrible, according to the National Party. We should not do that. Well, that is what Dr Brash says. But of course when Gerry Brownlee is confronted with it on a television programme, he suddenly finds a new answer for the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhat are we to believe in this debate? In a debate, one usually debates with someone who can at least keep the answer the same for more than half an hour. But not the National Party; no. We need to know all about its policy of need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u00228a092b5a182e412a9d65256fddc47dc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a092b5a182e412a9d65256fddc47dc3\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E There has been a sea change in politics this year, and one has to say it is the centre right striking back against the damaging politically correct agenda that the Labour Government has been trying to thrust down the throats of unwilling New Zealanders. The catalyst was Don Brash\u2019s speech. It was like a lightning rod, where people have said enough is enough. They have rejected this Government\u2019s creation of racial privilege at the expense of other New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ESo what has been the reaction of the silent majority? There has been a dramatic shift in voter opinion that is unprecedented in New Zealand\u2019s history, and it has now caused National to be the leading party in this Parliament. What is the Government\u2019s response? The answer is panic: an avalanche of spin, of propaganda, and of U-turns. We have seen U-turns over M\u0101ori privilege, over school closures, and now over the foreshore and seabed legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EBut I am here today to ask the Government for another U-turn. My Family Court (Openness of Proceedings) Bill was drawn in the ballot last week, and I am asking this Government to change the way it has voted on that bill. Three years ago, the bill was drawn and the Labour Government voted it down, and I am asking this Government to send the bill, to open up the Family Court, to the Justice and Electoral Committee. That committee is dealing at present with the Care of Children Bill, which is looking at the issue of openness in the Family Court. The committee members are well versed in this issue, and I am asking this Government to allow the public of New Zealand to have a say about an issue that is extremely important to the way this democracy is run. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ESince 2001, concerns about the Family Court have grown. The Family Court in some areas is known now as a court of injustice. It tears children and families apart, taking children away from their parents and grandparents; it perpetrates false allegations; and it fails to enforce court orders. It has even reached the stage where judges are ordering the court to be open so the public of New Zealand can see what terrible things are happening right in front of our eyes\u2014except that we cannot see them because of the secrecy that generally prevails around the Family Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EPeople cannot speak out about what goes on in the Family Court, through threat of criminal prosecution. Right now one of our colleagues, the Hon Nick Smith, is across the road in the High Court. He is facing criminal prosecution, along with National Radio and one of our television channels, because they spoke out about an issue before the Family Court that a judge had spoken out about. He is not facing criminal prosecution\u2014only those others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI am calling for the Family Court to be open like our Youth Court, giving judges the power to grant name suppression and to close the court on a case by case basis. It would simply align New Zealand\u2019s Family Court with that of Australia\u2019s and other Western countries. The benefits of an open court would be significant: open justice, an increase in mediation instead of litigation, a reduction in the number of cases going before the court, and therefore a drop in the cost of legal aid to be met by the taxpayers of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E There would be a fall in the number of child abuse cases, because the two cases where judges have opened up their courts in recent years have exposed the disorganisation of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services in dealing with care and protection issues. If that department were open to public scrutiny, its performance would improve and the number of cases of child abuse in this country would go down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI warn the Government that in 3 years the tide of public opinion has changed in favour of more openness in the Family Court\u2014and that is not just public opinion; it is the opinion of the judiciary and the legal profession, as well. Openness in the Family Court is an idea whose time has come. It is such an important issue, because it is all about natural justice. I would like to see this Government support the bill going to a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u002246814cc5ceb142ec867d11a3f6e3fae9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246814cc5ceb142ec867d11a3f6e3fae9\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, talofa lava, and warm Pacific greetings. I am pleased to speak after the ACT list MP Muriel Newman. We have listened to a range of views this afternoon about \u201Cneed, not privilege\u201D. Let me pin the tail on the Government\u2019s policies that address need and not privilege. Labour\u2019s policies were outlined on a pledge card, and we have delivered and are continuing to deliver on those policies. Our country is in good economic and social heart. I would also like to add my perspective as a woman of New Zealand and a woman of the Pacific, to say how politics and representation ensure that needs, policies, and programmes go together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI came into this House in 1999 as a list member of Parliament because of the MMP system. Subsequently, I won the general seat of the Mana electorate. MMP is a system that has ensured that the voices of people previously excluded can now be heard in Parliament. There are 120 members in Parliament. In the case of women, for example, there are now significantly more women in Parliament since MMP. In 1993-94, under first past the post, 21 women were elected to Parliament, and in 2002, 34 women were elected. There are now 19 M\u0101ori members of Parliament, three Pacific Island members, and two Asian and ethnic minority members. All people have some representation in Parliament because of MMP, which has provided a fairer, wider representation. There is no quota system. Political parties have each chosen a list of prospective MPs who reflect New Zealand society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EMMP is a system that meets the need to have a fair representation in Parliament of our pluralistic society. The first-past-the-post system tended to entrench privilege; MMP has led to greater equity and greater fairness. This Government has many examples where needs have been addressed through policy or legislative change. M\u0101ori and Pacific entry to medical training and Pacific Island recruitment to early childhood teaching, are examples. As well, equal employment opportunities encourage women to aspire to middle and senior management positions. These policies and programmes encourage those groups\u2014which have been previously excluded\u2014to enter a profession. That does not lower standards, because all must pass on final exams and achieve merit to the same standard, but it ensures there is greater fairness, equity, and representation among graduates and in professions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E Evidence shows that the increase in numbers of graduates from groups in the health, education, and business sectors has led to greater participation and positive outcomes for those groups. A lot of my inspiration as a member of Parliament came from women like Sonja Davies, our Prime Minister Helen Clark, and my mother. Throughout their lives they have modelled a leadership of service, action, fairness, opportunity, dignity, and security for all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI am proud of this Government\u2019s performance in our nation\u2019s leadership. We have delivered on our policies through our pledge card. Let me give members an example. The first pledge was: \u201CWork with all sectors to create an innovative, growing economy, with more jobs\u201D\u2014and now businesses are flourishing, and the unemployment level is down to an all-time low.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI want to speak about my passion for being a member of Parliament and a member of the Labour Party in this Government. It came from a desire, expressed by many communities of New Zealand, to have Pacific women represented in New Zealand, and also to celebrate a society of diversity and representation built on those foundations of fairness, opportunity, and dignity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003ENation building is about strong, diverse, and thriving communities. I use the metaphor of \u2019ie toga in the Samoan language, where the fine mat is woven by many hands. It has many strands, weak and strong, but all are colourful. It is in our weaving together, including the weak fibres, that we give strength to our unity. Nation building requires us all to ensure that all peoples can participate in the society and governance of this nation. We all have something to contribute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThis Government has shown leadership in addressing the many needs of our different peoples. Our Government works in partnership with all communities to address their needs. We have passed our legislative programme and policies on need, not privilege, and we have demonstrated that through actions and results. Labour has provided leadership and partnership, growth and innovation, fairness and security, opportunity for all, and strong public services. We are building a strong, confident nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022614b33418db842c5bb22b5fefca37d2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022614b33418db842c5bb22b5fefca37d2d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E This morning I was in the electorate of the Hon Trevor Mallard, the Minister of Education, who is also, now, the new Coordinating Minister, Race Relations. The mother of a child whose schooling is being turned on its head by this Labour Government said to me: \u201CWe used to think she had some integrity.\u201D\u2014referring to the Prime Minister, Helen Clark. Can we blame that person for arriving at the conclusion that Helen Clark\u2019s integrity has gone, when her child\u2019s schooling is being turned on its head solely because the school network review happened to take place before a series of political polls? That is what that parent feels. She feels that her child\u2019s schooling is being turned on its head because the network review in her area\u2014which happens to be Trevor Mallard\u2019s area\u2014was carried out before the series of opinion polls that showed that the people of New Zealand have had a gutsful of what Helen Clark and her Labour Government are doing to this country. I thought that that simple, little, honest statement from a parent spoke volumes\u2014\u201CWe used to think she had some integrity.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ETom Scott\u2019s cartoon in today\u2019s Dominion Post says it all: \u201CThey said it couldn\u2019t be done, but as I pointed out to my Cabinet colleagues, if you join enough of the dots you make stripes\u2026\u201D. Of course, we all know that Helen Clark is a fairly skilled painter. We know that from her track record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAfter Don Brash\u2019s very honest speech at Orewa, in my electorate\u2014I was there\u2014Helen Clark mocked it. Do members know what she said, in that smarmy way she says things? She said: \u201CI wondered what the Orewa Rotary had done to deserve this speech.\u201D She mocked it, but now the grin is on the other side of her face, because my people in the Rotary club at Orewa were the first to feel the honesty of what Don Brash said to them. As we know, several polls later\u2014Paul Holmes had a record number of respondents to his poll; The Rock FM showed that young people felt the same way; and there were historic shifts in the Television One and New Zealand Herald polls\u2014we are seeing the U-turns. The race-based fundings, the legislative references to the Treaty of Waitangi, and the foreshore and seabed policies are all under review. All the school network reviews now have a moratorium on them\u2014except the ones that took place before the poll results. That is the principle Helen Clark displays. She has all the colour-fast principles of a chameleon\u2014a couple of poll results and the policies all change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, you will remember the last time that happened\u2014but I must not bring you into the debate. It was in 1988. Not many members of this Parliament were here then. I was, and I remember it so well. The date was 28 January 1988 when the then Prime Minister, David Lange, did the last Labour Government U-turn. He decided to have a cuppa. The only problem was that he did not tell Roger Douglas. Of course, what happened? Not long after, Roger Douglas resigned, because when Governments lose their principle\u2014when they actually lose their integrity\u2014it is the beginning of the end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E We have seen it this time around because, just as David Lange did not tell Roger Douglas that he was having a cuppa on 28 January 1988, neither, it seems, did Helen Clark tell the M\u0101ori MPs that the foreshore and seabed policy was up for review. What the newspaper tells us is that a delegation of M\u0101ori members was very angry. The members had not been told about the changes and were very angry, and they went along to the Deputy Prime Minister to have a fight about it. As we saw in 1988 when the last Labour Government did its big U-turn in policy, it is the beginning of the end\u2014back then it fell to bits. Nothing demonstrates the divisiveness of this Government more than this simple fact: over the last 18 months it has had a huge programme of hui around the country to consult on its foreshore and seabed policy. There have been 11 hui held around the country, not one involving non-M\u0101ori people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u002248e1abd7877f422087a8d8e2eb03b074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248e1abd7877f422087a8d8e2eb03b074\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E This is a debate about leadership. The last speaker should know all about leadership because those members have practised with so many leaders in this House over the last 4 years. Dr Smith was a member of the Cabinet that endorsed policies that this Government has carried forward. True leaders stop and assess where they are going if there is some challenge, and this party is doing exactly that. We can be sure that many members of the National caucus privately agree\u2014and have not disputed when it was reported in the newspaper just last Saturday\u2014that if policies were assessed on the measuring stick of need, the same people would largely continue to access the same or similar services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003ELeadership is about leading people, not confusing them. What have we had since the famous Orewa speech made by the current, albeit passing, leader of the National Party? We have had confusion in the \u201CDon and Gerry Show\u201D. We have had a member visit the south of Auckland with a television camera and be shown service after service of M\u0101ori and Pacific Island providers. When he was confronted with the reality of the dithering position of the leadership of the National Party, what response did he give on national television? He said: \u201COh no, we wouldn\u2019t change that one. Oh no, we wouldn\u2019t change that one.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThat same deputy leader\u2014the leader in waiting, the man who acknowledged he represents one of the most affluent electorates in the country, which has no concept of the difficulties of race relations in New Zealand\u2014has said that it is OK to have ethnic quota bases when employing Asian policemen to police Asian Kiwis. But is he saying that it is not OK to have quota systems for M\u0101ori doctors, or to administer to M\u0101ori patients? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe danger of this approach that we have heard in the last 3 weeks is the danger of divisiveness. Ron Mark identified that yesterday during question time when he raised a point of order, quite appropriately, during which he mentioned the attack by the leader of the National Party\u2014the attack that is always made outside this House, not in this House. Don Brash stumps out on the hustings and is very brave in front of party faithful and television cameras, but when he has to answer for it in the House he is strangely silent and absent, and the jocular face of the deputy leader takes the stand to bulldoze his way through without any finesse or accuracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EWhen Ron Mark stood and said that the effect of this divisive policy is that all M\u0101ori doctors and all M\u0101ori lawyers will be considered second class, that was the sad truth. It took the former leader of the National Party to stand and say that in his case he knew of a Pacific Island doctor who qualified on merit. Of course all M\u0101ori doctors and lawyers get their degrees on merit under the same competitive system in which all doctors and lawyers train. The only reason there is any assistance to some minority groups in entering the universities is that they do not have the same privileged background as other groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EOur education system is endeavouring to level this out so that all people come out of the education system with the same opportunities, rather than the opportunity of privilege. These days any entry to a law school or medical school is based on a quota of numbers. Any quota of numbers is therefore arbitrary as to where the cut-off point is. So we see the leader of the National Party running out and creating misunderstandings and shibboleths, which he then endeavours to knock down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EOpposition members say that the polls say they are right. Of course people who are misled by the media are going to respond with alarm, and that is exactly what we get. But when they see the accuracy of the position, we will see the turn of the tide. The Government is at present highlighting the fact that our distribution of wealth and our assistance to the needy in this country is needs-based, and when that is revealed and recognised by even those opposite\u2014those who behind their hands, behind closed doors, and in the media will speak out anonymously and say that they recognise this is needs-based, but are too scared to confront the tidal wave of popularism pushed by their leader\u2014then this country will move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264c4e294f3ab49bcb7dae21039e4c264\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271c49747c3fe4b2abea3626bfc003022\u0022\u003EBroadcasting\u2014Sound System\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u0022148b190824264f21a17485d0bb71a220\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022148b190824264f21a17485d0bb71a220\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Whip\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I realise that significant resources have gone into improving the sound system in Parliament, but I am not sure whether you are aware that there are still significant problems with the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00220ce594c359cd40f58881d71af06c7528\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ce594c359cd40f58881d71af06c7528\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am. In fact, I have asked for this to be monitored every day. This is the first 4-week session, and we will do some more testing in this area in the adjournment. If members have any thoughts or particular comments, they could pop me a note about them. I would appreciate it, and I do appreciate the member raising that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f403ce3761d640f69cba8309de950529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f403ce3761d640f69cba8309de950529\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The problem occurred only during the last two speeches. It was OK earlier on, but when Dr Smith and Russell Fairbrother spoke it was really bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b683c596723d4509b42ce4b558eafa27\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: One of the reasons is that people speak too close to the microphone. People with strong voices should not go too close to the microphone. We are going to do some testing and I will write a little memorandum for all members. I thank them for raising those points and particularly also to Mr Tisch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4f04053db334a5fa2acbf6225f63679\u0022\u003EResource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3f0260c78054111b4c54b03fb18896c\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00229729b60c90ac47a09b4c9e37190adc44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229729b60c90ac47a09b4c9e37190adc44\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation), on behalf of the Convenor, Ministerial group on Climate Change:\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Resource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e4ace7edecd4c59a1ee4f580ad44f32\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0cdd93adece4fdf90d95a78f2c1a49a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259253af3d3944d52adc39099a8fb99da\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c5eb112e2648b28c91ae3f076c97ce\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I need to draw to members\u2019 attention the fact that there was a change to the Standing Orders that affect the Committee of the whole House. Before I call the first member, I wish to remind members that recent changes to the Standing Orders have altered the way in which the Committee will consider the bill. Debate will now begin with the question that Part 1 stand part. Debate on clause 1 takes place at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2d375a8758c4540983a1c0408d555cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2d375a8758c4540983a1c0408d555cf\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party in opposition to Part 1 of this bill, and I do so for a number of reasons. The first reason is a philosophical one, and that is that this Prime Minister of this Government, who now knows her days are numbered, has travelled overseas at the taxpayers\u2019 expense all around the world, standing on stages from one country to another, and promoting herself in her next job, whatever that may be. Most likely it will involve some kind of climate change, United Nations, tree-hugging, green-type, peace-leading type structure. I do not know what it will be, but I am certain it will be something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIn Part 1 of this bill, it is all spelt out. What we have is members of a Government who went over to the other side of the world and ratified the Kyoto Protocol ahead of all of our trading partners. They then came scurrying back to New Zealand and tried to get some legislative framework around the idiotic position that they have taken, and it is in Part 1 of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhat we have here in Part 1 is a definition of renewable energy sources. The select committee agonised over this. There were bits struck out, bits put in, new unanimous bits put in, and some bits that had minority reports to them. So clearly there was a huge amount of debate around that. The end result is that we now have legislation that can only cause huge uncertainty in local authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is good to see the Minister of Local Government here, because I am sure there will be some questions for him about what various bits of this part actually mean. I am sure the Minister will be able to answer completely without any confusion at all so that all the local authorities out there understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI will start with this quote from Clause 4: \u201Crenewable energy means energy produced from solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, biomass, tidal, wave, and ocean current sources\u201D. I am sure the local authorities will know exactly what all that means. But the Minister may also be able to answer as to which one of those is renewable, and which one he believes may be questionable. There was a huge debate about geothermal, because it could be the same as coal. It could be something we are mining from the earth that one cannot replace. Then, on the other hand, it could be something that goes on and on for ever. Who actually knows? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhere were the science papers\u2014I am sure the Minister or his advisers will have them\u2014that state that that is renewable, and energy sources such as coal are not? It stands to reason, and is logical, that if one digs something out of the ground such as coal and burns it and turns it into a different form, well, then it cannot be renewable. It does not come back. But is that not what one does with geothermal power? That is the first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere are a range of other questions, and here is one that the Minister, I am sure, will be right up to speed on. Why was it that the recommendations in the Owen McShane report, when it came to reforming the Resource Management Act to bring clarity around some of these issues, were not upheld? Why was it that the Minister for the Environment looked at the Owen McShane report at the beginning of the new Labour Government and said that none of this was for them, and she would put a red pen through the whole lot? She was not going to have any of it. The Government was not going to reform the Resource Management Act so that it would take notice of some of those issues at that time. The report was put through two select committees chaired by Jeanette Fitzsimons, and came back with no recommendation to bring about those changes that were recommended all that time ago. Now that is a question I am sure the Minister should be able to answer. Nobody else in New Zealand knows the answer to that, but I am sure the Minister does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThen, of course, one gets to the crux of the whole thing, which is greenhouse gas emissions and, of course, there has been a lot of debate about that. We have had the debate about the \u201Cfart tax\u201D, which of course was supposedly a greenhouse tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd0c086617c0468f969bf93224150171\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: That was a U-turn!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b7f580aca84c3fb3c463d324c4fa34\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That was a major U-turn, unlike the ones that have been made recently, the ones on schools and the foreshore. It was a major U-turn and the beginning of the U-turns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u002299cf31511c05411f8ca84d6b3b2df3a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299cf31511c05411f8ca84d6b3b2df3a0\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E It was quite absurd, was it not, the idea of the Government taxing millions and millions of sheep, and thousands and thousands of cows in this country for flatulence. Was it not absurd! Was it not good to see the U-turn. Was it not good to see the member Shane Ardern so eloquently demonstrating the absurdity of taxing those innocent stock going about their business in this country generating export dollars for us. It was good to see the Government do a U-turn on that matter. But the bigger goal, and what Shane Ardern is taking on now, is to see the Government do a U-turn on something equally absurd, but more insidious and less obvious to the general public; of course, I am referring to the Resource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI am standing to speak on Part 1, the commencement date, the purpose of the Act, and the interpretation of the Act. What I find interesting about this is that the bill is presented to the Committee in order to more easily clarify section 7 of the Resource Management Act, which requires efficient use and development of natural and physical resources. That is because it became apparent over the last 10 years that the Resource Management Act was inadequate in dealing with the efficient use of energy, particularly from minerals. The benefits that the country, the world, and the atmosphere can gain through the use of renewable energy resources, including that from minerals, which are less often renewable, unlike solar power and geothermal and so on, were not dealt with so well by the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe National Party acknowledges the benefits of renewable energies. There is no argument about that. We are not extreme. We are not like the Greens. We are not going to suggest using renewable resources in the sense of putting plastic bags around the buttocks of various stock caged in our country, and using that energy. We are not as extreme as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e01ec8bf0645e3a476e386600e855f\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Do they say that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c448e3a26a31442cb827244e56860acd\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: They say that sort of thing. But we are saying that the use of solar power, tidal power, geothermal power, biomass, wave power, ocean current sources, and wind power, as well as hydro, is very beneficial to the country. But what seems strange, particularly in clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D, is that local authorities, in planning for businesses and industrial development for energy users, whether they be residential or commercial, are allowed to plan for the effects of climate change. In other words they are allowed to guess whether the use of renewables is going to be positive or negative, and guess whether the use of mineral energy resources will be positive or negative. But they are not allowed, as is stated in paragraph (b)(ii) of clause 3, to consider the effects on climate change of discharges into the air of greenhouse gases. They are allowed to look at the potential effects, but they are not allowed to measure them and consider the actual effects of those emissions into the atmosphere. That seems absurd to me. One can measure the effects, and one can see whether they are beneficial or not beneficial. If they harm the environment, and people know it, people should be able to use that information in their planning, and not just in the granting of resource consent, but also in the granting of an extension of resource consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Harry Duynhoven\u2014who is sporting a broken arm because I know he was arm-wrestling David Benson-Pope to get into Cabinet, and he lost\u2014why it is that councils are able to plan for the effects of climate change, but not measure it and use that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f266bd2dfafa41379477bb4323170403\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f266bd2dfafa41379477bb4323170403\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First does not support another selective amendment to the Resource Management Act. Just over a year ago this House had the opportunity to seriously review and consider the Resource Management Act, and failed to do so. We now have this amendment bill and a further one yet to come to the House that is a selective amendment of an Act that requires major review. We understand that this bill that is before us gives effect to the Government\u2019s energy and climate change policy, and the elevation of energy and climate change matters as ones of environmental and sustainable management priority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge the Government\u2019s intention. We are aware of the Act of 2000, and the strategy of 2001. However, our party did not, and does not, support New Zealand\u2019s participation as a signatory to the Kyoto Protocol, unlike the two major parties in this House. New Zealand First does not support Government and legislative bias of only renewable energy sources of power generation, as this bill envisages in Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EIn looking at Part 1, particularly with regard to the amended new clause 3, in relation to issues of efficiency, effects, and benefits, there strangely lacks one major definition\u2014that is, exactly what is meant by \u201Ceffects\u201D? In the commentary the committee has stated that this is a term that is in the principle Act and need not be defined here. My first question to the Minister in the chair is: \u201CWhy did the Government not given an adequate explanation of the term \u2018effects\u2019 \u201D? Secondly, what are the benefits? Thirdly\u2014and probably most important for those who have to administer the Act for local authorities\u2014where is the clear direction to local authorities on the real intention of Part 1? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EIn default of a national policy statement, in default of any non-statutory firm guidelines, where do local authorities go with regard to this Act in their energy policies? We are aware that some councils have energy policies, and some have anticipated some of the terms and the concepts in this bill, but very few. This bill leaves a considerable frustration in the local authority area. There is no national policy statement in view; there is no significant non-statutory guideline or guidance with regard to the bill; and, most of all, and probably most important for local authorities, they confuse absolutely the intention with regard to clause 3(b)(i) that the planning for this effect of climate change in their region will not be one involving ratepayer cost. I do not think that sufficient thought was given to the fact that plan changes will be needed, and if not plan changes, then there will certainly need to be considerable research done in order to initiate the consent process that will follow from the implementation of this bill in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe background material, the scientific information, and the guidance are just not there. I go back to the first reading where there was a Labour statement that a national policy statement was not needed, and I refute that absolutely. Without guidance at national level this bill will not be easy to administer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EHowever, worst than that, without national guidelines and a national policy statement we will have a disconnected state of administration, council by council. This is particularly so, because although in clause 4 there is an interpretation for climate change and one for renewable energy, there is none that covers the cost of administering the effects and benefits of this bill. New Zealand First finds this a very strange piece of legislation and almost indicative of the haste that the Government has in other legislation, as well, where the intention arrives here in some bill form, but the practical implementation of that is left for a further day. It is not good enough, but, most of all for most administering authorities, it will certainly cause them some considerable disquiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022df8ac62d5d3c4fc1bd67f4acafcf8d8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df8ac62d5d3c4fc1bd67f4acafcf8d8b\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party will certainly vote against this foolish legislation brought to this House by this beleaguered Labour Government. It is a result of the Labour Party\u2019s foolish adherence to the fundamentally flawed Kyoto Protocol. It is part of the Government\u2019s foolish response mechanism, and I can only predict that we will see more of this type of stupid, foolish legislation in this House from this Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EIt seems that the Government has a fixation with renewables. I do not think that it actually understands the physics of that, because no matter is created or destroyed; it is merely transformed. But, somehow, the Government is going to categorise what become renewables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI know that Mr Hodgson, the Minister of Energy in this Labour Government, has a fixation with wind. He believes that somehow by harnessing the wind we will solve our country\u2019s energy woes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cd7606d1a3143f381debc0f03168f99\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: So has Mr Benson-Pope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227900a92ee1c84deeb7ac68004b1100dd\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Benson-Pope has a fixation with wind too, but that is another matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI believe that New Zealand is on the brink of an energy crisis through inaction and lack of planning and foresight by this Labour Government. At best, a wind turbine generates 0.8 of a megawatt a year. Just to keep pace with our expanding energy demands we would need to build over 200 turbines every year. Just think what the landscape would look like if we were building 200 wind turbines across our landscape every year. Of course, wind is intermittent and variable. I was reading figures just the other week and saw that in Denmark no power is generated for something like 37 percent of the time, because the wind is not blowing. So wind power is not a reliable solution to the problem. It is certainly a contributor, and I believe that it is a valuable contributor. I am not knocking wind turbines, at all. They have a role to play, but wind power is not the solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThis Government somehow thinks that tilting the Resource Management Act in favour of windmills and condemning coal will prove to be a solution for our energy woes. It will not. We know that the Maui gasfield is at the end of its commercial life\u20142007 will be the commercial end, and it could be sooner. That is a huge problem for this country. We know there are huge deposits of lignite coal in the Southland deposits\u201450 Maui gasfield equivalents in the Southland lignite deposits alone. However, because of this Labour Government\u2019s mantras and foolish adherence to that flawed Kyoto Protocol, coal is off. We cannot talk about coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe have about 1,000 years\u2019 supply of coal deposits in this country to meet our energy demands\u2014if we are prepared to use them. I know that the Minister in the chair, Mr Duynhoven, is sympathetic to that view, but he has been railroaded by the rest of his colleagues. It is a shame he did not make it into Cabinet, because he would have been a better Minister in Cabinet than the clod\u2014who is the character the Government has just promoted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d494cda73ebf467e8dac9ed31eaa01b9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I will not allow the use of the word the member used to describe the senior Government whip. I ask the member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280f6715335084f388a286538dd721252\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: What was the word?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022509ff632fbb54440995136336c1d2d3f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows exactly what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad009c7bc864095b91477482f3b065d\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, I cannot recall what I called him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d1712fd4752460d947cb3f2f8e9838e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is aware of what he called him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282c55a8a99a8485eae94dbde2ad40b54\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: If I caused him offence, then I will certainly withdraw\u2014be that as it may.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EA select committee of this House went down to look at Project Aqua last week. In that project we have the modification of one of the few remaining rivers in this country that is unmodified\u2014the Lower Waitaki. If we are not going to use our coal resources, and if we are going to adhere to the policy of total emphasis on renewables, then the country had better be prepared that there will not be an unmodified river left in this country. That is the reality of the situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWhen I look at some of those definitions, too, I see that they are equally as confusing. Clause 4 states: \u201Crenewable energy means energy produced from solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, biomass, tidal, wave, and ocean current sources.\u201D Now, solar energy is actually nuclear energy; it is radiation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022142a903987144511855c5796ddcd2e13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022142a903987144511855c5796ddcd2e13\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E The first point I want to make is that this is not the Kyoto Protocol bill, despite the constant calls from others who have spoken in the debate before me. In fact, if members look through the legislation, they will find that the word \u201CKyoto\u201D does not even appear. It appears once in the Local Government and Environment Committee\u2019s commentary on the bill, but it does not appear in the legislation. That is why United Future is able to support Part 1, and, in fact, the bill. We have made it clear that we are opposed to the Kyoto Protocol. I do not know why we any longer waste our breath on it, because it is pretty well dead and buried. It is very unlikely that Russia will ratify it. Most people around the world are beginning to look at what they will do after the death of the Kyoto Protocol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EPart 1 makes it very clear that local authorities are required to plan for the effects of climate change. As I said earlier, it caused me some concern when I first saw that in the bill, because of the huge range of effects people estimate that climate change may have on our landscape. It is clear that the Resource Management Act already requires local councils to take note of the effects, and potential effects, of future activity upon our landscape, so this bill really only makes clear what the Resource Management Act requires councils to do. The New Zealand Climate Change Office and officials have assured us that they will give local authorities some good guidelines on what the band of climate change may be, and what the effects could be. If that does not work in terms of giving clarity to local councils, some national policy statements will follow. But these take time to produce, and we have accepted a reasonable explanation that it is time to move forward in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003ESecondly, clause 3(b)(ii) requires councils \u201Cnot to consider the effects on climate change of discharges into air of greenhouse gases\u201D. I would have thought that Mr Shirley, and others who have spoken in the debate before me, would fully support that, because that will remove any impediment to local councils being able to give consents to coal-fired plants. We in United Future rejoice in that. All we have to do right now is to change the ideology of the current Government with regard to its opposition to coal-fired generation. If that does not occur in this term, perhaps the next Government to be sworn into the House will have a different opinion and will be able to move very speedily into releasing coal-fired generation across the country\u2014because councils, as a result of this legislation, will not take into account the effects of greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere. We consider that to be a good step in the right direction. As Mr Shirley said earlier, this legislation does not condemn coal. In fact, it may well make it easier\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c5f0afbfac441a1a02ca3fd97863cb5\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not listed in the renewables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d56c4c8e61b4b008679556636db0b87\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: We will discuss the renewables in just a moment. However, we believe it is sensible to ask councils to take care of those things in clause 3(b)(i) and (ii), and that will result in good law for the Resource Management Act. It is crazy for us to put our heads in the sand and say that nothing is going on in respect of the climate around the world. There is some debate about whether the cause is greenhouse gas emissions, and also about whether it is a cyclical thing as a result of increased heat coming from the sun. However it is caused, it would be wise for councils to take into account the effects of climate change in their planning. United Future has no problem with supporting that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWhen we move to the definition of \u201Crenewable energy\u201D, we come across different terms, like \u201Csolar\u201D, \u201Cwind\u201D, \u201Chydro\u201D, \u201Cgeothermal\u201D, \u201Cbiomass\u201D, \u201Ctidal\u201D, \u201Cwave\u201D, and \u201Cocean current sources\u201D. All of those should be promoted within New Zealand to enable us to generate energy on a more sustainable and renewable basis. I agree with Mr Shirley that it is not possible for wind on its own to solve all our energy requirements. As we calculated when we were in Waitaki the other week, it would take something like 5,000 windmills to generate the power that Project Aqua will generate. So it is not a question of one of those things meeting all the requirements; it is a combination of all of them. In particular, we hope for advancing technology in respect of tidal and wave technology that may enable us to generate electricity in a very, very sustainable way. As I mentioned in my second-reading speech, this is not so much about giving a leg up, or giving an unfair advantage\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe5202018b4243279cc794617ea026fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe5202018b4243279cc794617ea026fe\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E National will certainly not be supporting the Resource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill. We will not be supporting it, because it undoubtedly is yet another contribution to the entangled mesh of bureaucracy that this beleaguered Labour Government has placed around the Resource Management Act. Indeed, this is a desperate and beleaguered Minister\u2014and we have evidence in the chair there; he certainly looks a sorry sight. He has been playing around, undoubtedly and desperately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ECertainly, if this legislation was to bring in efficiency and was evidence-based, then we would look at it. But as we go over to the purpose clause and note that it includes the requirement for local government to take notice of the effects of climate change, we then have to look at the Government\u2019s own preferred package on climate change, and this is what it says about it\u2014this is vital: \u201CThe area of climate change is uncertain. We know the world has a problem, but it is unclear exactly what will happen with the climate, to whom, and over what time frame.\u201D This is the Government that has put in one of the most prescriptive and onerous pieces of legislation in terms of domestic climate change policy, and it will affect all New Zealanders adversely, way in advance of our trading partners like Australia and America, and this is the Government that is further entangling us in this mesh of bureaucracy when it admits, in its own preferred policy package, that absolute confusion surrounds climate change. This bill is utterly inappropriate. It is absolutely premature, and it indirectly imposes all sorts of distortions on New Zealanders both at the local government level and at the national government level, and it indeed is a great folly because of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is important to spell out to the Committee the sorts of consequences that will be imposed on ordinary New Zealanders through the Government\u2019s preferred climate change policies. The Government has said\u2014and it has it on its website\u2014that petrol prices are liable to go up between 3 and 6 percent in 2008; diesel prices by 5 to 12 percent; electricity, 4 to 9 percent; gas, 3 to 8 percent; and coal, 8 to 19 percent. That is just domestic use. Ordinary New Zealanders are simply not aware of this, because the Government sort of signalled it as being in the distant future. To make it even worse, the industrial costs that will be imposed on New Zealand are, for electricity, 6 to 16 percent; gas, 9 to 24 percent; and coal, 17 to 44 percent in increased charges. That will have a huge effect on the New Zealand economy. Labour has done this whilst its own preferred policy package says that confusion surrounds the whole area. It is just arrant nonsense, and it is an example of a Government that is undoubtedly way out of control. In the fine electorate of Port Waikato I have two examples of where this bill will absolutely conflict in terms of sensible planning. One is New Zealand Steel. That company will go bust unless it has a negotiated Government agreement. That is a huge distortion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u002212c8ae3a826f44ef9d1fb2ca1307b28f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212c8ae3a826f44ef9d1fb2ca1307b28f\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u00228caa52d8e18746cd8f0ffa590f6c007f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228caa52d8e18746cd8f0ffa590f6c007f\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is not surprising, is it, that the planet is in a mess, when we look at the level of ignorance even among members of Parliament. It is not innocent ignorance, but wilful ignorance, despite the information that has been put in front of them, time and time again. We heard Shane Ardern say that we have signed the Kyoto Protocol, ahead of all our trading partners. It will be news to New Zealanders that we do not trade with Europe, Japan, and Canada any more. They do not count. People who care only about America are prepared to dismiss the rest of the world as though it does not matter. They signed the Kyoto Protocol long before us\u2014we are playing catch up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EKen Shirley thinks the answer is coal. Well, I guess if one does not really believe climate change is a problem at all, then, of course, one would say to burn coal\u2014never mind the mess it makes in every other way. The evidence for climate change is now overwhelming, even if there are some uncertainties about the rate of the changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt is clear now how the Minister has persuaded United Future to change its vote. It was against this legislation in the select committee and it is now for it. It is clear that United Future has been persuaded by being promised that in the next term of Parliament it can have coal, just as ACT, National, and New Zealand First wish, as well. That is a shame, because it is not, as Paul Hutchison said, premature to get into climate-change policy; it is probably too late. It is certainly too late to prevent some of the effects, and it may be too late to prevent even worse effects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ELocal government has been asking for this legislation. It wants to plan to avoid the sorts of floods and disasters that have been plaguing the lower North Island recently. Nobody can yet say that those floods were caused by climate change, but there is no doubt that that kind of effect is consistent with what we can expect if climate change accelerates. Local government wants the tools to plan conservatively to prevent that kind of effect, and the Ministry for the Environment has already produced substantial guidance. We do not need to wait for a national policy statement, the work has been done, it is there now, and local government is able to use it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI want to propose an amendment to clause 2, because there is a bargain at the heart of this bill that may not be kept. The bargain at the heart of this bill is that the tools that regional councils have to take greenhouse emissions into account when they are considering air emissions are to be taken away in exchange for there being a national instrument, which is a much more effective way of controlling them. That national instrument, under Government policy, will be a carbon charge in 2007. I have always been a bit concerned about the 3-year gap in-between, but I am much more concerned now that it appears possible that the Kyoto Protocol will not be ratified at all. If the Kyoto Protocol is not ratified at all, there will be no carbon charge, there will be no national instrument, and the only mechanism that exists to control greenhouse emissions will be what regional councils have been doing\u2014and in a couple of cases quite successfully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ETwo very successful agreements have been negotiated on two new power stations to mitigate their greenhouse emissions. I believe that the coming into force of clauses 6 and 7, which remove the powers of regional councils, ought to be linked in time with the coming into effect of a national instrument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff16f356bb3744a093b954fc84bb657c\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I do not like to interrupt the speaker, but we are on Part 1, and she is talking about clauses 5 and 6, which are in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4e48d92d5df469295f52ac52cd910d2\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Chairperson, I point out that my amendment is to clause 2, which is in Part 1. That is where the \u201Ccoming into force\u201D is provided for. Therefore, I need to speak to my amendment to Part 1, which is where clause 2 occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9c7e8e4c8a74325bbee7ff51ec10bd8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member. Maybe she might like to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee823f9feeb348a4937025d17e73c33a\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: It is worth noting, in view of the things that have been said about carbon charges and the higher prices that they will cause, that the money raised by a carbon charge does not go into a black hole and disappear from the economy. It is available to pay back in tax reductions elsewhere. Green Party policy is that we would lower income tax by the amount we collected from the carbon charge. We would pay a bit more for our fuel, we would pay a bit less at the bottom band of our income\u2014not at the top, as ACT would like to do\u2014by whatever we collected from the carbon charge. That money is available to go into the economy and achieve other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac8093c1bd9542149a91c1e14d754153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac8093c1bd9542149a91c1e14d754153\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002247643eeaf44247a68e10c4237d3fde89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247643eeaf44247a68e10c4237d3fde89\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I want to say very strongly that National does not support the passage of this legislation. We do not support it on a number of fronts. The first reason is that this legislation is very muddled. I believe it will bring great uncertainty into the energy sector, and, without doubt, it will impose additional costs on councils and ratepayers as they try to come to grips with what this legislation is trying to signal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThis bill requires councils to plan for climate change when there is huge uncertainty about its causes and effects. Jeanette Fitzsimons conveniently overlooks the fact\u2014and she will know this\u2014that there are 17,000 eminent scientists in America alone who say that the theories that underpin global warming are flawed at best and complete rubbish at worst. How then are we to expect councils to deal with this problem with any authority when we cannot even agree about it at national level, let alone an international level? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons went on to say that it is unlikely that this protocol will be ratified. Does that imply that the rest of the world is ignorant, just because we view this issue differently from the Greens? I do agree with Ms Fitzsimons on this basis\u2014I believe we are going through a period of global warming. What I am not convinced about, however, is to what extent this is a man-made phenomenon. Given that, why would New Zealand buy into what is a global problem and not a problem of New Zealand\u2019s making? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIt might interest this Committee to learn that New Zealand contributes 0.02 percent of all greenhouse emissions. Yet we went at it headlong to sign into this Kyoto Protocol, ahead of our major trading partners\u2014as Mr Ardern said. This Government was prepared to put the people of New Zealand at a significant disadvantage on the basis that it wanted to sign into this protocol simply for a photo opportunity. In a very cynical way, the people who were going to be asked to pay for this were the farming community of New Zealand, through the imposition of a tax on flatulence. That was the beginning of the U-turns that have characterised this Government over recent weeks. They have been the biggest U-turns since David first spied Goliath. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn Part 1 of the Resource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill, clause 3(a) deals with efficiency of the end use of energy. This, to my mind, is totally illogical. The message is that the Government does not really care how efficient one is in generating electricity, but it is concerned about how one uses it. That is why this Government is promoting Project Aqua. It is not concerned about the best use of the resource; it is simply saying that it does not care how electricity is generated or what damage it does to one of our great national resources, but, in order to support its philosophical position, it will have people sign on to Project Aqua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThere seems to be a view that water in this country is an unlimited resource. I have news for those people. The recent report from Environment Canterbury makes it very clear that on the South Island\u2019s east coast, water is over-allocated. If that is seen as a renewable resource, then I believe we are mistaken. We are going down a track that will leave New Zealand terribly exposed. I pick up Mr Shirley\u2019s point\u2014I believe we are heading towards a significant energy crisis in this country, yet we are ignoring some of our best natural resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d18ef2683c8c409b900e7cc4237a5bbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d18ef2683c8c409b900e7cc4237a5bbd\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to add my thoughts on this very important legislation. The Resource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill is legislation that National will not be supporting, because it takes us backwards. Pieces of legislation such as the Resource Management Act mean that this Government captures opportunities for development. This legislation just adds another huge compliance cost and another hindrance to development, to investment, and to the growth of our country and our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on a couple of points that were made earlier by Mr Peters about clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D. Clause 3(a) talks about provisions relating to the efficiency of end use of energy, the effects of climate change, and the benefits to be derived from the use and development of renewable energy. Of course, nowhere in this bill does it articulate what those concepts mean. I would have thought that when one talked about the effects of climate change, one would have to know what that means. We need to look at what the effects are. They have to be crystallised in an argument and articulated in such a way that when I read this bill it is very, very clear what those effects mean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIf there are effects, there will be benefits\u2014which is what the clause says. What are the benefits to be derived? If this legislation goes ahead, I want to know what the benefits of it will be. Again, nowhere does it say what those benefits are. When I look from a strategic point of view at cause and effect, cost-benefit ratios, and those sorts of analyses, those are the questions I want answered. I ask the Minister of Energy, who has not taken a call yet. This is an opportunity for the Minister to put his mind to those questions, because not only am I asking them but also they have been raised by Mr Peters from New Zealand First. They are not questions that should be glossed over; they are important questions. They form the basis of the bill, because they are found in clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want also to mention the point raised by my colleagues about coal resources. There are 800, 900, 1,000\u2014I have heard even up to 1,500\u2014years of coal resources available that we could be using to provide energy. With new technology, coal can now be burnt leaving clean air. What coal can do for us has been overlooked. In my electorate of Piako, Solid Energy New Zealand, which operates the coalmines at Huntly, cannot, because of the restrictions of the Resource Management Act, supply coal to Genesis Power, the power station right next door on the river. So what is happening? Coal is being brought in from Indonesia. It is being trucked in from the Port of Tauranga, 24 hours a day. It is coming across the Kaimai Range into Matamata, where I live, and is being stored in a quarry just out of Matamata. The unloading of that ship is a 24-hour operation, so that 48 hours later it can be on its way again. That coal comes from Indonesia, while sitting on our doorstep, in Huntly, is Solid Energy coal that could be fuelling the Genesis power station.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENot only that; there is a problem with the trucking of the coal. The neighbouring farmers up Taotaoroa Road, where the quarry that stores the coal is, have to deal with a continuous stream of vehicles, 24 hours a day. They have problems with noise and dust, and the trucking interferes with the way in which they operate and do business. The coal is taken from there during daylight hours, between 6 in the morning and 7 at night. It is transported over to Huntly during those hours, because of the requirements of the local authority resource consents, and it is dumped for storage. On Monday I had a deputation from the area where the coal is to be dumped on an open stockpile at Solid Energy, and already there are huge problems with noise and dust in the preparation of the site.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo we will oppose this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8d8d911a830433c8c8d68fdba49be57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8d8d911a830433c8c8d68fdba49be57\u0022\u003EMITA RIRINUI (Labour\u2014Wai\u0101riki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002274d6332666584c9991b6f01421f3a608\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000404\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000405\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 2 and substitute the following:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000406\u0022\u003E2\tCommencement\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000407\u0022\u003E(1)\tNew sections 70A and 104E come into force on the day that a national carbon charge, carbon trading regime or national environmental standard to control the discharge of greenhouse gases comes into force.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000408\u0022\u003E(2)\tAll other sections come into force on the day this Act receives the Royal assent.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224f51ee9f2f2246f8894f7d8a2ffb4798\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022438f3b54617d4b869aac4d01c384e02c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b7f56f304814f459ff10f4e117f97d1\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to principal Act and transitional provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00227d80236a1e5445eaa149258101a09b7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d80236a1e5445eaa149258101a09b7e\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 2 with the same level of opposition to it as I had to Part 1, although there is something that my colleagues on the centre-right might consider: if this part were to achieve its real objective\u2014which is to find a new job for the Prime Minister off shore\u2014then we might change our vote. It might be a good decision to make! If it were to achieve that result\u2014which is what it is really intended to achieve\u2014then we might support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is good to see the real Minister of Transport, Harry Duynhoven, in the chair. Looking at that Minister, who has his arm in a sling, one can see what happens to the competition when there is a major reshuffle in the Labour caucus and the senior whip is promoted to a ministerial portfolio. Labour members know how to deal with the competition\u2014that is for sure. It is called an honourable discharge\u2014or \u201CLabour Party politics\u201D is probably a better term for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d68582ad176644b2a6c0bc61653c5c88\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Twisting their arm!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282c7c79dd8d34bb18de10e36ab922580\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It is called twisting their arms\u2014that is right. Part 2 of this bill is the part that deals with the nonsensical, silly approach that has been applied by this Government. Did anybody hear all the major contributions from Government members on the merits\u2014or not\u2014of Part 1? I did not hear them. Did anybody hear them? Nobody heard them. Not even the Minister of Energy took a call to explain the stupidity of this legislation to any members of the public who might be listening. After not having heard a single Government contribution on Part 1, we are now debating Part 2, and are hopeful that somebody will explain to us why we need this nonsensical legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at what it does. Clause 5(2) states: \u201CSection 7 of the principal Act\u201D\u2014which is the Resource Management Act\u2014\u201Cis amended by adding the following paragraphs: (i) the effects of climate change: (j) the benefits to be derived from the use and development of renewable energy.\u201D Let us explore that for a moment, and find out what the use of renewable energy might mean. The first things that happened under this Government\u2019s leadership\u2014under the leadership of both the Minister of Local Government and the Minister of Conservation\u2014was there was a proposal to build a hydro dam on the West Coast of the South Island. The Minister said: \u201CNope, we can\u2019t do that\u2014no can do. That is a very important piece of conservation land, 200 hectares of gorse\u2014we can\u2019t flood it in any circumstances.\u201D Then we had an energy crisis. The Minister said: \u201CWe\u2019ve got the answer to that. We\u2019ll burn coal.\u201D! As my colleague said, we are not even going to use our own coal, of which we have gazillions of tonnes\u20141,500 years\u2019 worth, somebody said. We are importing coal from Indonesia. We will burn that coal to get us out of an energy crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThen we come to this legislation, which states that emphasis must be given to using renewable energy. If that is not an oxymoron, somebody better take a big, deep breath and explain to me what it is that I am missing, because something seems to be missing in that equation. I know that the Minister in the chair, the Associate Minister of Energy, is passionate about this. I have heard him talk about it. I am sure he will take a call and explain to me why I am so confused over the position the Government is taking in this legislation. It states that local government must take into consideration, in its business, the concept of renewable energy, even though central government, in a power crisis, will use coal, not hydro power\u2014because we are not allowed to develop any more hydro dams, and there are no more being developed that I know of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at that. I want to challenge one or two of the notions that were put forward by the Greens, who, of course, support the Government in this nonsensical approach but who, I notice, voted against Part 1\u2014and I congratulate them on that. United Future, whose members have spent the entire time they have been in Parliament talking about this, are now voting for the bill\u2014nothing surprises me in politics any more\u2014but the Greens, to their credit, did vote against Part 1, although I suspect it was for completely different ideological reasons from the ones I have just put forward. The Greens said that they would vote against it, so I give them credit for doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d189b778113f412096005e939a89daa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d189b778113f412096005e939a89daa1\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I do not want to spend very long on Part 2, because I think that Part 1 laid out all the issues in the bill. Part 1 also laid out the problems, which are repeated in Part 2. Clause 5(1) amends section 7 of the principal Act by inserting paragraph (ba): \u201Cthe efficiency of the end use of energy:\u201D, and I have tabled an amendment to add the words \u201Cwhere this is practicable.\u201D The issue that New Zealand First has is that the limitations in Part 1 are also there throughout the whole of Part 2. The reason for my amendment is that, although the use of the term \u201Cend use\u201D is an improvement, it disregards all sources of energy. New Zealand First\u2019s problem is that, along with the present Government\u2019s haphazard, fragmented approach to power generation\u2014and there is no better evidence than what was seen by those of us who were down in Waitaki last Thursday and Friday\u2014and with a lack of coherence in practical terms, notwithstanding the fact there might be coherence in legal terms, there is no provision in Part 2 for non-renewable sources such as coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EIn fact, the issue of the use of coal throughout the bill becomes a real problem. I took into account the submissions made by the relevant submitters\u2014including Fonterra, which now uses coal as a source of fuel\u2014that modern, better technology means, for certain, there are reduced discharges of greenhouse gases into the air when coal is used. But this bill precludes that, expressly clause by clause in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe other issue I want to raise again, despite what has been said by others in the Committee, is that this bill, in its legislative form, will impose issues for councils. There is no mistake about that. It is not sufficient for us to be told that non-statutory guidelines are of help. They are not, and those who are seated behind the Minister in the chair, Harry Duynhoven, know exactly that. A national policy statement has legal impact, in effect; non-statutory guidelines have not. Therefore, I say again that unless the issue is very quickly remedied to influence the final form of this bill, councils will have problems. There will be differing interpretations, despite the excellent work done by at least two regional councils with regard to the issue of emissions in their current regional plans. Nothing in Part 2\u2014and I will be very pleased if the Minister can clarify the matter for me and tell me I am wrong\u2014makes that issue clearer for practitioners of the legislation, should it be passed, so they can work with certainty. Worse than that, if there is a lack of certainty on the part of those who have to adjudicate upon and work on resource consents, then there will certainly be an added cost for those who lodge applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ELastly, this bill, notwithstanding the comments made by the Minister in his introduction speech, will have a cost-added impact. The worst part about that, for the Minister in the chair, is that that impact is unquantifiable at the present time, because there is no policy statement. New Zealand First then does not give any support to Part 2, even though it may be seen by some as a laudable attempt on the part of the Government to address the issue of reduced emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb6b494f2b0d4456a618016dc3547a31\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Harry Duynhoven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bff5bc152be4b5faa51d941d0157235\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s alive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u002201e31f90d81c4d3882267aca60b2b999\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201e31f90d81c4d3882267aca60b2b999\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E Not only is he alive, he is also very well. I assure Mr Ardern, whom I saw on Sunday evening, that I already had a broken bone in my hand at that time, as he will recall, so it has little to do with the events of this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe key objectives of this bill\u2014and I want specifically to address Mr Jim Peters\u2019 point\u2014are to give greater weight to the value of renewable energy, and to clarify the fact that energy efficiency should be a consideration, regardless of the energy source. These are prime factors in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EOne reason the Labour Party will oppose the amendment put forward by Mr Peters is our belief that to meet the provision he proposes would add extra compliance costs for both applicants and local authorities. The test in clause 7 already incorporates an assessment equivalent, so the amendment would then be a duplication, add further complexity without any real benefit, and result, I am sure, in later court cases around those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EMs Fitzsimons put forward a motion during the debate on Part 1 to do with the timing of two clauses in Part 2. The motion referred to new sections 70A and 104E. Because councils are choosing not to apply controls on greenhouse gas emissions now, to delay the introduction of new sections 70A and 104E would result in little change. Such a delay would also result in ongoing uncertainty for councils with regard to consent applications and associated litigation costs, and would potentially result in duplication of controls when the carbon charge is implemented. The introduction of these new sections will provide certainty about the role of councils. There is no policy gap in the interim, and more climate change policy mechanisms are being implemented than just the carbon charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI come now to one of the prime criticisms of the legislation, which is that Russia has not signed the Kyoto Protocol. What happens internationally if the Kyoto Protocol falls over? New Zealand was not one of the first to sign the protocol, as is often claimed. On Monday of this week I was with Genesis Power in the Wairarapa, where we looked at the extension project to the wind farm it has there. It was really interesting. One thing discussed during that visit was that Meridian Energy had recently been engaged in negotiations with an entity from the Netherlands, with regard to carbon credits. The Dutch\u2014and I can speak with some authority on this issue\u2014are not renown for putting up money ahead of time, if they do not see a benefit. Regardless of whether the Kyoto Protocol comes into force, Europe is already progressing on that issue. Meridian Energy has been able to negotiate with, and will be in the position of being able to sell carbon credits to, the Netherlands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is in the position of being able to say: \u201CHang on a minute. Why would countries do that?\u201D They are doing it because they see that, regardless of the cause of climate change, there is climate change and a need to do something about it. That is the situation of the world we live in. We cannot prove today\u2014at least, I cannot\u2014that climate change is a result of whatever events have occurred over the last century, but we do know that climate change is definitely occurring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003ETherefore, we have an obligation\u2014and this Government recognises it\u2014to do what we can to be part of worldwide action to ameliorate and do what we can to reduce the effects of climate change. The Dutch have recognised that, and are putting their money upfront. New Zealand companies can do business with them. I am pleased to say that I sat alongside the Dutch Minister at the last International Energy Agency conference, and we discussed just these matters then. The Netherlands is very serious, as is Europe, about this issue, and I believe that the Russians will sign the protocol\u2014but let us wait and see. In the meantime, this Government is getting on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022836338fabdb0423db428343fe88db3bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022836338fabdb0423db428343fe88db3bb\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 certainly perpetuates the nonsense that we saw in Part 1. We heard the Minister say that climate change is happening, but climate change has been happening since Adam and Eve in time immemorial, as my colleague pointed out. It is of huge concern that a very intricate bureaucracy and layers of legislation are being put into the bill, when this Labour Government, in its preferred policy package, has clearly stated that confusion surrounds the issue of climate change. I think it would be useful if the Minister took a further call\u2014and I say good on him for taking one call\u2014to explain to us why, when the Government says that there is much confusion, that the area of climate change is uncertain, and that it is unclear exactly what will happen to whom and over what time frame, the Government is putting in all these extraordinary things like negotiated Government agreements, which distort the markets and give the wrong incentives. Why is the Government doing this, when it admits that there is so little knowledge about the root cause of climate change? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that in clause 5(1)(ba) the efficiency of the end use of energy is referred to. Why has the Government not started doing the sort of sensible things that are being done in Europe, in terms of making sure that we have efficient end use of our energy anyway\u2014for instance, with regard to motors? In Europe\u2014the Minister has looked at what happens there\u2014a system is in place to incentivise companies and manufacturers of motors, so that if they have highly efficient motors, then they get a gold star standard, which is graded from levels 1 to 5. There are clear incentives to make that happen. We have an example of a company in New Zealand that has invented an energy-efficient brushless motor, and is licensed to sell it in North America and all over Europe. But in New Zealand there are no incentives for companies to have that efficient end usage of energy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt seems absurd that the Labour Government has put into this bill an incredible framework of intricate, useless bureaucracy, and has not done the simple, sensible things first. Instead, it has forged ahead of our trading partners, and we have the ridiculous situation whereby in my electorate New Zealand Steel, which employs 1,200 people directly and 5,000 indirectly, may well have to close down if the Government imposes the carbon credits that it is planning to impose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E Instead, New Zealand Steel will get a negotiated Government agreement. That is fine. Then that company tells me that one of the most useful ways it could run its highly important plant\u2014highly important to New Zealand\u2014would be to use coal. The company is very prepared to use the most contemporary technology that there is, but it would have no hope of getting a resource consent to do so\u2014absolutely no hope. That is an indictment on the difficulty that this Government has put us into. On the other hand, Genesis Power is planning and applying for a wind farm. Wind farms are great\u2014absolutely great. I can see the Minister in the chair, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, with his genetic propensity\u2014being a Dutchman\u2014has great enthusiasm for windmills and wind farms. That is splendid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u00225796ab976e3c49d39aec8374612addcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225796ab976e3c49d39aec8374612addcf\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting to listen to Paul Hutchison call for incentives for less polluting motors. Every incentive that has ever been proposed\u2014whether it be a financial incentive through carbon charges, making clean fuel more cost effective, an environmental standard, or whatever else it was\u2014the National Party always opposes. So there we go; there are the incentives. That is how far we will get with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt is pretty clear from what a number of members have said\u2014and the latest is Mr Peters\u2014that the coal industry has been doing a fantastic public relations job recently. The coal industry has been around the country persuading people there is something called clean coal, and telling them it has the technology to not emit carbon dioxide. That is absolutely false. Nowhere in the world has anyone proved that coal can be burnt without ever releasing the carbon dioxide. It can be tied up for a wee while; it can be put down an oil well until it eventually bubbles out again, but in terms of the long-term effects on the climate, we do not yet have any way of burning coal without releasing all the carbon in the coal as carbon dioxide. We may have a way of doing that one day. When we do, coal can be added to the list of clean technologies. At the moment we do not, so let us forget coal and get on with what we do have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing, and quite worrying, that the Government was not prepared to vote for my amendment to link the removal of the regional council powers with a national economic instrument. That was the genesis of the idea. The whole purpose of taking away those Resource Management Act powers was that greenhouse emissions are better controlled at the national level. That shows that the Government itself is very much in doubt now as to whether it will impose a carbon charge. It is now over 10 years since that was first tried by an environment Minister, and he was knocked back in Cabinet. Simon Upton wanted to do that in the early 1990s, and he could not get it through Cabinet. It remains to be seen whether anybody will ever get a carbon tax through a Cabinet. But in removing those regional council powers and putting nothing in their place, we are left with nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt may be that councils are no longer looking at putting controls on greenhouse emissions, but the Environment Court might well have done so. We have had three really important cases in the past. The first one was when Simon Upton called in the application for the Stratford power station and imposed carbon mitigation requirements on that power station. The fact that the then Government was kind of fooled, and the requirements were written in such a way that they have not come into effect, is a secondary issue. The second important case was when Greenpeace negotiated a side agreement with Contact Energy over its new gas-fired Otahuhu power station. That station has not been built, but the consent is there. Greenpeace negotiated an agreement that it would not oppose the building of a new, relatively clean gas-fired station if a certain amount of the very old, very dirty, and very inefficient New Plymouth station was closed down. That was a fair deal, which had benefits for the climate. The third case was when the Environmental Defence Society had conditions put on the consent for the new Huntly gas-fired power station that effectively capped total emissions from the combination of the new and old Huntly stations, so that Genesis Power could not go on saying that the new station was just to replace the less efficient old one and then continue to run both of them at full steam. So we have had three cases where the Resource Management Act has been used, admittedly not as effectively as a national instrument could be used, to try to control greenhouse emissions. We are now throwing that out, and there is no commitment to put anything in its place. I think that is really unfortunate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI have seen all the arguments that the officials gave the Minister to tell the House as to why this amendment should not be supported. I saw those arguments last week, and I do not agree with them. I think we can shoot holes in all of them, but it is, of course, the Government\u2019s right not to support the amendment. I have to ask how much longer we will take as a nation before we really do something about the biggest long-term threat to the global environment. We cannot hide behind the fact that there are still some uncertainties around how fast climate change will happen and what the exact nature of the local effects will be, to avoid taking action on what is going to be a serious issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9abaac3994c4de1877889c446f8f23b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9abaac3994c4de1877889c446f8f23b\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I know that members on the other side may think I am trying to close the debate down, but I would like to make a contribution. I am supportive of the bill, because, contrary to the dinosaurs on the other side of the Chamber, I believe that we do need to look at efficient energy. The whole South Pacific region climate change is a serious issue. I doubt that members appreciate that. We know about small island States. Most of Tuvalu, a very low-lying island in the Pacific, went underwater for over an hour last week. That could be attributed to the damage to our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af830562ae694cfa9a6151c3421f7a58\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Absolute nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bdd0c10d0d44e309a2752d5bfdb0cb9\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD\u003C/span\u003E: A dinosaur like Ken Shirley wants to say \u201CNonsense\u201D, but the whole world acknowledges the effect of the burning of fossil fuels and the greenhouse effect on our climate, as well as the pollution of the environment. The sort of air we breathe as a result of the ever-increasing amount of carbon dioxide that is coming out of exhaust pipes of various kinds of traffic, including thousands of cars, is very damaging, not only to the environment but also to the health of people. These are very important issues, and this bill goes some way towards getting local authorities to acknowledge the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003EIf people want to put their heads in the sand and ignore it, they can do that all they like, but certainly in our South Pacific region these are very serious issues that people will have to confront in the near future. We could see low-lying islands in the Pacific totally disappear as a result of the effect of greenhouse gases. The points that have been made by the Minister are very valid in relation to Europe. It is acknowledging the problem and getting ahead in developing renewable energy and greater efficiency in the way energy is used, and that is a lesson we need to learn from the Europeans. I do not accept the large industrial nations\u2019 arguments that we can for ever continue to burn fossil fuel and ignore the consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00225ea2b66e58734f30a512437ca262292b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ea2b66e58734f30a512437ca262292b\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party is certainly opposed to this bill, but I would like to rebut as part of this debate the comments we have heard from the Labour member who just resumed his seat. We all hear about rising sea levels as a result of climate change. That is where the United Nations model has most failed. There is no evidence to support its model. It keeps adjusting it down and down. We have 50 years of sea level records\u2014oceanographic and tidal recordings\u2014at Tuvalu, at Honiara, at Kiribati, and all around the Pacific\u2014and in the Tuvalu case Mr Field has just mentioned, I invite him to go into the Proudman Institute\u2019s website, which shows 50 years of records, and he will see there is no measured increase in mean sea level at all. Yet, at every Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, the head of Tuvalu says his island is disappearing under water, and all the other heads of Government say it is terrible and it is because of climate change. I invite Mr Field to look at the science. It does not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E Sure, there are tidal surges. There have been tidal surges around the Pacific for ever, and small islands sometimes suffer those tidal surges. As he knows, on Niue there was a hurricane where the ocean surged 35 metres upwards and smashed the hospital\u2014which was about 200 metres inshore\u2014to pieces off the cliff face. Those are the sorts of surges we can have. But members should not say there are sea-level rises, because the evidence is not there to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI would like now to address the Minister in the chair, Harry Duynhoven, and ask him to comment on these issues. The Government did a U-turn on the \u201Cfart tax\u201D, which is related to this climate change issue\u2014a complete flip-flop on that\u2014when it came under pressure. It was going to close all the schools, and has now announced a 5-year moratorium. A big U-turn has been done on that issue this week. The Government\u2019s closing the gaps and race-based policies have had a big, big U-turn. They are now styled \u201Cneeds-based\u201D policies, even though just a few weeks ago the Prime Minister said that that was a racist thing to do. She is now quite happy to go down that path. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWhen the Government is on the trot with all those U-turns, why does it not drop the nonsense associated with this climate change legislation? It should pull out of the Kyoto Protocol. It is not too late. The mantra is foolish that the Government is pursuing on that, and it is trying to impose it on local government in this legislation. That will never work, yet the Government persists with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EFor goodness\u2019 sake, the Government should realise that it is down the wrong track and do another U-turn. After all, it is on a roll and getting pretty good at U-turns now. So why should the Minister not go back to Cabinet? Another few Ministers have joined the Minister in the chair, at Cabinet. Surely they realise that this legislation is a loser for the Government, so they should do another U-turn. The country is getting used to that. We are expecting a few more U-turns now. It is getting to the stage that there is a new U-turn every day. Well, this issue must be the next one on the Government\u2019s list of U-turns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI urge the Government to pull out of the fundamentally flawed Kyoto Protocol. We should have never ratified it in the first place, and this legislation is a consequence of that foolish adherence to that fundamentally flawed protocol. I am particularly worried about what is happening in the energy sector in this country. We should all be concerned about it. We have already heard from others in this debate about the price that is to be placed on coal\u2014and in this legislation we are having all sorts of fast-track measures put in for the so-called renewables\u2014but what concerns me most is the actual nationalisation occurring in the energy sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EOne classic nonsense, while legislation like this, which is trying to promote renewables, is brought to the House, is that the Minister of Energy recently approved\u2014and it is under construction right now\u2014a temporary generator at Whirinaki. Thrown at that was $150 million of taxpayers\u2019 money. It is a single-cycle gas turbine. It is actually a 747 jet engine that is fuelled on imported diesel. The idea is that $150 million of taxpayers\u2019 money is thrown at it, with the hope that it never has to be used\u2014so that it sits idle and rusts\u2014but if it is does ever have to be used, it is the most inefficient and clumsy generation that we could ever have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EBut the Government panicked: \u201COh, we don\u2019t want to go into election year facing an energy crisis, so let\u2019s do something. It doesn\u2019t matter what. Just grab the taxpayers\u2019 money and throw it at it.\u201D It is a dreadful waste that is appearing at Whirinaki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6b20aa4bfab404fb4e78dbd86bd8324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6b20aa4bfab404fb4e78dbd86bd8324\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT member who spoke before me loves to rail on about the Kyoto Protocol and how we need to pull out of it, but he seems to be missing what is happening around him. Normally he is very aware of what is going on in the world. Even the member sitting next to him, Jeanette Fitzsimons, admitted in her speech earlier that the Kyoto Protocol is dead. It is very, very unlikely that Russia will ratify the protocol. Therefore, even though our Government has ratified it, it is very unlikely it will come into force internationally, and many people are already rethinking, and addressing the issue of what they will do post the death of the Kyoto Protocol. I was very encouraged to hear Jeanette Fitzsimons admit that, because it has taken her a long, long time to come to terms with that reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EHowever, apart from Kyoto, it is still important for us to address the issues of the potential for climate change, as I said earlier, and also to not leave it up to individual councils to have to deal with greenhouse gas emissions when they come to issuing consents. United Future members are thrilled this bill actually removes the responsibility of regional councils to deal with that. It is much better handled centrally, and it will enable the Government\u2014when it gets the policy right on energy generation\u2014to be able to cope with it on a national level instead of leaving it up to individual councils to have different things going on in different areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons has put forward an amendment to this bill, and earlier in her speech she indicated that maybe United Future had been tricked into supporting the bill on the basis that it would ultimately become quite a pro-coal bill. But we have never had a change of mind during this process. We supported the bill in its first reading, and during the select committee stage we had some concerns, as we often do with legislation. We were then able to make some constructive changes to the legislation, so we are now able to continue to support it. That is the function we play in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EBut Jeanette Fitzsimons has put forward her amendment, and I have to say to her, and to the Government really, that if her amendment were to be agreed to, in this bill, then United Future would have to make a U-turn, because it is exactly the thing we do not want to see contained within this legislation. A requirement for a national carbon charge is the very thing we do not want to see come in, in New Zealand, because it is anti-business. It would add costs to our businesses, so United Future has always indicated that it is opposed to the imposition of any national carbon charge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIn the absence of that carbon charge\u2014and I think it is time, perhaps, that the Green member realised the wool might be getting pulled over her eyes\u2014regional councils are no longer required to take into account greenhouse gas emissions, and the field is wide open for generation of all kinds. It is true we must have generation of all kinds in New Zealand. It does not make sense for us to take one kind of generation over another. It does not make sense in this country that we import fossil fuel while we sit on a huge coal reserve that could be generating energy for us at a much cheaper cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWhat is the effect upon our balance of payments when we import fuel to generate electricity but could be using our own resources, in that regard? I have been down to the Waitaki River with the select committee recently, and seen what the impact of Project Aqua could be on that river. Part of that project is driven by the ideology that will not allow other types of generation to be developed around the country, so we tend to try to maximise every drop of water out of our rivers\u2014therefore, perhaps, potentially doing them some serious damage. It does not make sense that we will not allow the Dobson scheme to go ahead, for the sake of a small area of kahikatea at Dobson. It is a very sensible hydro scheme, which we have been pushing for ever since we came into this Chamber, and we will continue to do so in order for that scheme to deliver power for the West Coast, a region very much in need. People pay very high prices on the West Coast for their power, and transmission lines into the coast are not very reliable, so it would be much better for us to generate power there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting Part 2 of this bill, because we believe that it provides for the things that are beneficial to New Zealand in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u002265fd4bd53e744fc5bab21ab99a72e359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265fd4bd53e744fc5bab21ab99a72e359\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take the opportunity to respond to Jeanette Fitzsimons\u2019 statements regarding the need for members of Parliament to read the facts and statistics and come to their own conclusions\u2014simply because the Green Party is the worst party in the world for dressing down facts and spitting out spin. The Greens are very short on facts, and always have been. Is it not absurd that they would have us import native timber from Fiji, but not allow us to sustainably harvest our own timber from the West Coast? Is it not absurd that they would have us import coal from Indonesia, burn it, and send it into the lungs of our choking children, but not allow us to harvest 800 years\u2019 worth of coal in our own country? Is it not absurd that we are not allowed to use the renewable energy source of the Dobson Dam, but we are allowed to put up wind turbines all over the country? They will be the first to pull them down when they are not aesthetically pleasing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI was amazed by the Green Party members during question time today when they were complaining about the Minister of Conservation tagging dolphins with an electronic tag that was to be picked up by satellite. In order to save the dolphin population the Department of Conservation will put a little tag into three dolphins. Sue Kedgley, the Green spokesperson, stood up and complained about the chainsaw that would come out of the Minister of Conservation\u2019s boot. He was going to carve a hole in the dorsal fin of a dolphin and stick a 16-foot-long tag through the back of this fine mammal, and we would track them all over the southern ocean. If we could not pick them up on the satellite we would see their blood spurt everywhere! The absurdity of it all, of course, is that the dolphins were to be tagged with something smaller than the size of an earring that Nandor Tanczos would wear through his belly button. It was to be picked up through the satellite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8f7ea9fb364abe80d95405b7ba45ef\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac1275077694cf98da17eb1b3926bc6\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am coming to the point. Facts were not important for the Greens, and facts are not important for them in this bill. Wait until there is a public outcry driven by Green Party members when they find out that the Minister of Conservation is going to electronically tag plankton. There will be a public outcry from Green Party members because they are short on facts, big on fiction, and they are doing that in the debate on this bill. I say to Jeanette Fitzsimons that if she really wants to protest like the protesters of old, and if she really supports renewable energy, she should burn her bra. That is what she should do, if she really believed in it. She does not believe the spin that she puts out in this Chamber or in the community\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424e8e2365cc4d1085a78bb95ab449ec\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chairperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022876963c455074ef5bc7a5ecc14dde569\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I was just considering the same point. I think that is quite distasteful. The member can withdraw that remark, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221166511b9a8a4a0b9a2654cc1430ee22\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Protesters of old did that all the time; there was nothing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224711f52fe3a54813b4590ca045c97d97\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have asked you to withdraw that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284ea5d650de5415d8b45c2d9eb53096f\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. The point is that if Jeanette Fitzsimons and the Greens were really sincere, they would have an informed public debate. They would acknowledge the truth about global warming: the fact that much of it is immeasurable; that there is concern across all parties in this Parliament about it; and that we want an informed and practical public debate. Bringing forward legislation such as this will not fix global warming. It will not fix it in Northland, in Taranaki, on the West Coast, in New Zealand, in the South Pacific, or in the rest of the world. That is why we oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022d21703a2a0b0454ba77f78f385875c80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d21703a2a0b0454ba77f78f385875c80\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fb5f74341aa44eb9b6629c5cb9a2a6dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000468\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Jim Peters to clause 5 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000469\u0022\u003Eto amend clause 5(1)(ba) by adding the words \u201Cwhere this is practicable\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002250b2e45aa4b74d42bb44485f8d207a52\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d402e6a9390e4915af7b2a0f6dd19e09\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022079c11547e7c4226beb4d456157d28e9\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaaff1ec6b5a46f19a6369a3fd8fc481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaaff1ec6b5a46f19a6369a3fd8fc481\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be able to take part in the title debate. I was very pleased to see Taito Phillip Field take a call in the Committee. As I think about the title and whether it is appropriate, I wonder whether, for the sake of argument, we can allow that his proposition is correct that global warming is a global problem. I would then put it to him that if it is a global problem, surely it deserves a global solution. How can it be a global solution if the major countries around the world are not prepared to be a party to that solution? Why should New Zealand wade in and make global warming our problem, when we contribute only 0.2 percent of the greenhouse emissions worldwide? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI am thinking about the title. Maybe we should call this bill the \u201CResource Management (Climate Uncertainty) Bill\u201D. I am glad to see that we have a Minister in the chair, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, who is prepared to take a call, because I have a question for him. If we allow that there are benefits to be derived from the development of renewable energy, and if we really believe that the Kyoto Protocol is the solution to the problem of climate change, will the cost of fixing the problem leave New Zealand better or worse off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dce577fc0c749a996ff37e71aafe88b\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac748d722dd649a2aa04bf6088af3ed5\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister take a call and explain why he believes that? Has it been costed? Does he understand that there is a huge body of opinion that says that no matter what we do around the Kyoto Protocol\u2014even if the whole world embraced it\u2014it would not change the climate outcome one iota? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E The next issue I want to put to the Minister is this: if we allow that electricity demand is growing exponentially\u2014and it is; it is outstripping supply\u2014what will we do when the supply has been outstripped? Would the Minister care to take a call and answer that question? What will we do when the demand outstrips the supply? That really is the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c18e3404b953403ab67a1b225a9a0e0f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to speak to the title. This is the title clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041f42dbc5ef4194aab3aea3cfa1aad4\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe the title, then, should be the \u201CResource Management (Energy) Bill\u201D, because that really is the crux of the matter, or the \u201CResource Management (Kyoto) Bill\u201D, because essentially that is what we are talking about. So my question to the Minister still stands. If energy is being used at a rate that outstrips supply, what will we do then as a nation? Business in this country wants one thing above all else, and Clayton Cosgrove knows that. The one thing that business wants more than anything else is certainty. Cost is important to business, but certainty of supply is more important. That is why the title of the bill is, I think, a misnomer, because it does not really deal with the substance or nub of that question. Would the Minister care to take a call on that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMaybe we can name this bill the \u201CResource Management (Steal Carbon Credits) Amendment Bill\u201D, because the Minister took a call\u2014and I commend him for doing that\u2014and waxed lyrical about some of his Dutch interests doing deals with New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253643cc8a5d94e16b7fde32cdb7be4dd\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Not my Dutch interests\u2014Dutch interests. I am a New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253d50bcea9224d3bb45c8ab2a989d0d2\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, he talked about Dutch interests doing a deal with New Zealand. I apologise to him. That was not the point I am trying to make anyway, and I did not mean to offend the Minister. I am simply saying that there is a body of opinion in this country that believes that the carbon credits do not belong to the Government in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4960b93a4c445f2a8d50fe77a147492\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c713e2e44043bf9d6b0649bc423382\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: The forestry sector, which Mr Cosgrove represents, believes that, and the farmers that he represents believe that. Maybe Mr Cosgrove should take a call and explain to them why the title of this bill is a misnomer. That issue goes to the nub of the problem. The answer that has been suggested\u2014and again, I will relate it to the title\u2014is that maybe we should call the bill the \u201CResource Management (Wind) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa977efca76348768bebf58633fa6016\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: That member would know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffdce8e2a7bf4b63b55d1ac39dafab57\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: He probably would, too! The member over there on the Government benches suggests that I should know about that. Actually, I do not know a lot about wind generation, other than that to have a huge number of windmills dotted across the landscape of this country will not only cause huge noise pollution but will be ugly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00225f2ca082e03c45d1ad181df41d4a7498\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f2ca082e03c45d1ad181df41d4a7498\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Mr Ardern, I advise members the vote numbers were given incorrectly in the vote on Part 2. The numbers should have been Ayes 62, Noes 54. I ask that members accept that correction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1fbd819239c4cbaa3529d8e43874db6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1fbd819239c4cbaa3529d8e43874db6\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in opposition to the title of the Resource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill, because it is very misleading. The accurate title should be \u201CGet Helen a New Job Overseas Bill\u201D, or \u201CFind a Position Internationally for the Former Prime Minister of New Zealand Bill\u201D. Another title might be the \u201CMislead the Public of New Zealand Then Do a U-turn Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to note that the Minister in the chair, Harry Duynhoven, took a call. I congratulate him on it, and also the Labour member who made a contribution in the last 2\u00BD hours as we debated the bill. Both of them are learned, and both gave very sound contributions. The only problem is that nobody on this side understood what they were talking about, and that absolutely says it all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair said that through some acquaintance with some Dutch interests in energy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2dd87a9ece454fb89522c62bcfb992\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: No, through Meridian.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d61abd6ccd2d4d379706cc0a2b9533b5\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014through Meridian, and in discussions with some Dutch colleagues\u2014I guess it would be fair to say\u2014there was believed to be an opportunity for New Zealand to trade in carbon credits. I understood that is what the Minister said. The Minister is nodding, so that is what he said, but here is where I have a difficulty. I understood that the socialists on the other side of the House were going to nationalise the carbon credits and take them for themselves. Now, I am in a huge vacuum again. Maybe the title of the bill should be \u201CThe Minority Socialist Labour Government (Once it\u2019s Found a Job for Helen Overseas) Bill\u201D, and then the \u201CNationalise the Carbon Credits Bill\u201D will trade them at the expense of Meridian or any private or State-owned company in New Zealand. That would be a much more accurate description of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EPerhaps the Minister will take another call and clear this matter up for me, because, clearly, I am now a little perplexed about how one can trade carbon credits with Dutch interests after they have been nationalised\u2014[Interruption] Clearly, the State can; the Government can. There is no doubt that the State can trade those carbon credits if they exist, and if it can find a market for them. But how does that help private enterprise or private generation, or anybody at all who is interested in investing in the energy sector, other than the State? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt might help the State, but what is the State doing in the Resource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill? I will tell members what it is doing. It is building diesel-powered generation, it is building coal-powered generation, and it is prohibiting the very thing that this bill stands for\u2014renewable energy generation. If one goes down to Card Creek and looks at the Dobson Dam\u2014200 hectares of gorse\u2014a private entity that wants to invest and produce a hydro-power station in an area that is energy deficient and make it self-sufficient in energy, on a side of the island where they have regular and reliable rainfall that is completely sustainable and could go on for 500, or 1,000 years, or for ever, the same minority socialist Labour Government that is proposing this bill is saying: \u201CNo, we\u2019re not going to have a bar of that, we\u2019re not going to allow them to do that, that is not within the precincts of what we will allow as the democratically elected Government of New Zealand\u201D. But not for much longer; it is about to be changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo the title of this bill should be the \u201CStop the Development of Renewable Energy, Nationalise Carbon Credits and Find Helen a New Job Overseas Bill\u201D. That would be a much more accurate description. Another title might be: \u201CIf I Can Create Enough Opportunities on the International Stage to Talk in a Whole Lot of Wiffle-waffle, Socialist-type Platitudes About How I Can Save the World From all Sorts of Ills, Then Somebody Overseas Might Find Me a Job Bill\u201D. When it comes to the Prime Minister of New Zealand, let us hope that comes true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00225fabc8fe81924da897425dee3b41a650\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fabc8fe81924da897425dee3b41a650\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Generally, I think the title of this bill is a fairly good one, but I have a couple of suggestions that might make what this bill is about a little clearer. It probably could have been called the \u201CLevelling of the Playing Field (Energy and Climate Change) Bill\u201D, because really that is what the bill attempts to do. It is not about giving a leg-up to renewable energies, but rather levelling the playing field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIt is often more difficult to get consents for renewable energy projects, because they intend to be more obtrusive. They intend to have more impact upon the public, and therefore there can be more objectors to them\u2014for example, windmills or wind farms. If someone is able to perfect the engineering for tidal generation, it will be pretty hard to get consent for sticking something in the middle of Tauranga Harbour, for example. So this bill will help to level out the playing field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EAnother title could be \u201CIt\u2019s Definitely Not the Banning of the Coal Bill\u201D. That is one that United Future would like, because that is the truth. This bill is not about banning the opportunity for coal generation. In fact, we think it might actually give some assistance to it. It could be called the \u201CResponsible Common-sense (Energy and Climate Change) Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298982db86d404c6aa7b741691b0b5f70\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: Before the dinner break, I was just making some comments about possible alternative titles to this bill. I think I mentioned that it could have been called the \u201CNot the Banning of Coal Bill\u201D, because, clearly, this bill does not restrict the use of coal as a fuel. The final suggestion I would make is that it could have been called the \u201CCommon-sense Response to Climate Change and Not the Kyoto Amendment Bill\u201D, because it is really a common-sense response to our need to take care of issues relating to climate change without going over the top and signing up to the Kyoto Protocol, which is a bureaucratic nightmare. With those comments, I shall end my contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u002241a5bf4e50a548628c32c9d35c310856\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241a5bf4e50a548628c32c9d35c310856\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking on behalf of New Zealand First I suggest that the bill be termed the \u201CResource Management (Transitional Change) Amendment Bill\u201D. I wish to focus upon the words \u201CTransitional Change\u201D, because the bill picks up on a stage when we were accustomed to traditional energy sources\u2014when hydro, coal, and gas energy and, more recently, thermal energy were more common. In the course of recent years we have moved to more serious and concentrated thinking upon the value of wind power; we have the example of, say, Genesis Energy\u2019s biogeneration plant; we have modern gas turbine stations; and, particularly more recently, a greater amount of thinking is taking place about the possibilities of the fossil fuel coal being used again, not in its traditional sense but in a transitional way. Therefore, that is an appropriate name change for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ESurely, it is a transitional change bill when one takes into account the fact that alongside this bill there is\u2014I have perhaps laboured this point, but I will labour it again\u2014no national policy statement that gives legal guidance to those who administer the Act. Until that is there, this bill surely must be an incomplete answer to the energy issues, and therefore it truly is a transitional change. Only when this bill in its enacted form has a national policy statement to go with it will there be some real guidance to those who would wish to operate under the bill. That includes not just councils but also those who make applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EI suggest that that will be even more so because, with regard to this particular bill in its final form, there is no established body of law. Therefore, there will be uncertainty and inconsistency as to how this legislation will be applied. I strongly suggest to the Minister in the chair that until the requirements of a national policy statement are there, this bill might jeopardise the ability of the Government to give effect to its energy policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EOn behalf of New Zealand First, I say that we do not find this title helpful\u2014particularly in 2004\u2014with regard to the whole nature of this bill, which is incomplete and transitional. We suggest that the title \u201CResource Management (Transitional Change) Amendment Bill\u201D would be a far better title, and would more completely encompass the bill\u2019s premature stage of development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc2df0bd0ef64daa9111b888493285ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc2df0bd0ef64daa9111b888493285ed\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I can say, in speaking to the title, that ACT opposes the title. We opposed Part 1, we opposed Part 2, we oppose the title, and, indeed, believe it or not, we will vote against and oppose the bill in its entirety. This is thoroughly bad legislation brought to this Parliament by this minority Labour-Progressive Government. It is bad legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI will not dream up fanciful names. I think the way that Parliament spends time putting up all sorts of silly titles of bills has become a bit puerile\u2014\u201CIt\u2019s Not the Banning of Coal Bill\u201D, which we heard from United Future, and titles like that. It becomes a somewhat puerile debate, and certainly beneath the dignity of an ACT MP. So I will merely address the title, make the point that this is bad legislation, and again call upon this Government and the Minister in the chair to do another U-turn and another flip-flop. That is becoming habitual for this Government, but Mr Duynhoven would actually be doing the country a service if he were to ring up his Cabinet Ministers tonight, call a special meeting of Cabinet, and tell them: \u201CNo, folks, this is doing huge damage to the country. We\u2019re on a loser. We should pull this bill, and do a flip-flop.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EMr Duynhoven should also tell Cabinet Ministers that they should withdraw the ratification of the Kyoto Protocol\u2014that fundamentally flawed nonsense that this Labour-Progressive coalition Government has committed this country to. This bill is a consequence of that. It might be dressed up with the title \u201CResource Management (Energy and Climate Change) Amendment Bill\u201D, but it is the first of many. We will have a raft of this sort of legislation. Local government does not know what will hit it when this bill is passed into law. It is frightful legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EIt is not only the climate change aspect, as mentioned in the title; it is also the energy aspect, as also mentioned in the title. We in this country, regrettably, are facing a looming energy crisis. It is just starting to dawn on many New Zealanders. I know that the business sector is hugely alarmed at the crisis that will confront this country. Possibly as early as next year\u2014which, I remind members, is election year\u2014we could be facing one of the biggest energy crises that this country has seen. If this Government is prepared to do triple backflips and U-turns when it is enjoying great economic conditions thanks to Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson, imagine the amount of flip-flops and U-turns it will be prepared to do when a cold draught is blowing up its majority due to bad economic conditions, brownouts, pensioners not being able to keep warm in winter, and the power going off at 5 o\u2019clock every night! That is the way we are heading because of foolish legislation such as this, and this Government\u2019s foolish adherence to the fundamentally flawed Kyoto Protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe Government has already confiscated the property rights of the foresters. It has stripped them of their property rights. The Government said it wanted a trading carbon model based on the sequestration of carbon. If that were true, if the Government wanted a trading mechanism, it would have left the property right with the foresters so that they had something to trade; instead, the Government nationalised it. Everything we see from the Government on energy is all about central control and nationalisation. That is what is leading to the crisis, and it is embodied in the title of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00229e12af094dea407382ee4d6db1011485\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e12af094dea407382ee4d6db1011485\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221215dec0a67c46388bade623d3b3dc94\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f7129e96c9134a12a184db5ca9ac9e95\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000509\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002235d7af86112b4e8783b73294787cd536\u0022\u003EHealth (National Cervical Screening Programme) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f1e46685a344006b94b450f968e29d8\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000512\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 24 February.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002263d6a216d4664c909977003dbde9e263\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u002226f656ea664040d99556e2dddc809ea8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226f656ea664040d99556e2dddc809ea8\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I shall take a brief and final call in the Committee stage of this cervical screening programme legislation, because I only want to redress some accusations that were levelled last night at myself and United Future by National member Pansy Wong. If Ms Wong had been a member of the Health Committee she would know that no one on the committee, including myself, ever discussed or suggested punishing women who opt off the programme. Ms Wong\u2019s comments reflect politicking of the kind that leaves most New Zealanders highly disappointed in the parliamentary process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWhat I did was attempt to remind the House that, historically, women in New Zealand have a very good track record in working unselfishly for the benefit of others. That commitment to the common good needs to be promoted as part of this bill, because every woman who participates in the programme contributes to its overall success or failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EFor whatever reason, women who opt off the programme are not cut off from access to cervical screening. My concern was, and is, that those opting off need to understand that the programme is the poorer for that choice. United Future believes that the right of women to opt off is essential, but we would like them to make that decision when it is accompanied by all the information about the implications of their choice\u2014implications both for themselves and for others enrolled on the programme. That is all I need to say at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00224550b8696d8e4267a51ceeacff1b86b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224550b8696d8e4267a51ceeacff1b86b9\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to speak to the title phase of the bill. I note the title has changed from the Health (Screening Programmes) Amendment Bill to the Health (National Cervical Screening Programme) Amendment Bill. In fact, that is a very good change and one that I, along with many other members of the Health Committee, pushed for. Many committee members felt that not all screening programmes could be covered by the bill. They felt it was inappropriate that other screening programmes that might later come to light should be part of this legislation. Rather, they felt those programmes should have their own legislation governing them. The rules and regulations surrounding cervical screening might be, and probably are, very different from those that would be necessary in programmes for prostate screening or breast screening, for example. So the title is a good change and is very much welcomed. ACT New Zealand is supporting the bill in its entirety, and is very supportive of the change of title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIt is very important to remember that screening programmes are a public good. There were many discussions in the select committee, and we spent a long time discussing the privacy issues surrounding screening programmes. I think they have been dealt with and we have reached a consensus. Compromises have been made, but they are necessary ones if we are to save lives with programmes of this nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe cervical screening programme costs $35 million of taxpayers\u2019 funding a year. I put in a written question about the programme\u2019s cost to the Minister of Health and that was the response that came back. That is a lot of money, but it is important to remember that many lives are saved with programmes of this nature. Certainly, there is very good international experience and research to support that position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand we have seen significant improvements in the mortality rate relating to cervical cancer\u2014particularly over the last decade, and, in fact, over the last 20 or so years. Although it is difficult to specify just what exactly has brought about that change, it is thought that the National Cervical Screening Programme has had a significant part to play in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI really just wanted to take a brief call to address the title, which in this case was changed part way through the process, but for very good reason. ACT takes great pleasure in supporting this bill and we look forward to a further improvement in the mortality rate from cervical cancer in New Zealand, as a result of the very good and cooperative work achieved through the processing of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022265446627082428fa8b3190dffce594e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022265446627082428fa8b3190dffce594e\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I take delight in being able to take another call in the debate on this Health (National Cervical Screening Programme) Amendment Bill. I agree with ACT\u2019s Heather Roy in the sense that, in modern days and in the recent history of Parliament, all political parties seem to agree that the title of a bill should be more specific about, and descriptive of, its contents. To simply call the bill the Health (Screening Programmes) Amendment Bill is not in itself very enlightening, because screening programmes can cover a variety of programmes, whereas this particular amendment bill is addressing the issue of cervical screening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI reflect also that the previous title, the Health (Screening Programmes) Amendment Bill, did not, for the public who were listening to this debate, throw a lot of light on the bill\u2019s background and the very fine balance that has to be struck in its content. I think the background to the bill was due to the disastrous failure of the screening programme, which led to the Gisborne inquiry. We have learnt how a lack of quality control and auditing in the programme led to disastrous results for the women concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe debate on this bill has not been easy, even though the public may think that, because most political parties agree with the bill, its passage must be a matter of fact. But in the National caucus I certainly know of the deliberation and the consideration by our spokesperson on health, Dr Lynda Scott. She had to go to great lengths to maintain the very sensitive balance of making sure the participation rate in the cervical-screening programme was high enough for the results to be credible while, at the same time, improving that programme by introducing an auditing process whereby women have to submit their primary health records for auditing purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ETherefore, I think this bill\u2019s title should at least include words like \u201Caudit\u201D, and \u201Chalfway consent process\u201D. Why do I say \u201Chalfway consent process\u201D? Unfortunately, the Minister of Health and the United Future party rejected an amendment by my very good colleague Dr Lynda Scott, to the effect that, when letters are sent to all the women who participate in the programme, they are given the opportunity to say, whether for personal or very valid reasons, they do not want to submit their medical records for auditing\u2014and they are still allowed to stay on the programme. It was to our great disappointment that the Minister of Health and United Future rejected that amendment. I think it is very punitive to say that women should be excluded because they will not give consent for their medical records to be subject to audit. That is why I think the words \u201Chalfway consent\u201D should be included in the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENone the less, our party will support the passage of this bill, because we believe that an improvement in quality control is necessary to maintain the credibility of the programme. But we certainly want to reserve our position in order to see what impact the introduction of the auditing process has. We want to see whether the participation rate remains high, and whether a quality audit is carried out with integrity so that women participating in the programme can have the belief that their records are being respected. I am delighted to be able to take a call, but I certainly appeal to the Minister in charge of the bill to ensure that in future the title of a bill should be more descriptive of its content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc7f69aadea64fb88f23332d3e705ade\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc7f69aadea64fb88f23332d3e705ade\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4815c05d94345ec8d5a78eb5dcbcb88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4815c05d94345ec8d5a78eb5dcbcb88\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The Greens voted against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002202c3e5483dff405f9740d186c62a3a6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202c3e5483dff405f9740d186c62a3a6f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The result has already been declared. I called it, and I heard nothing else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228127592fca174007b87238284a2212c2\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d1e2e87c8e944a784814f00e614859c\u0022\u003EParty Vote\u2014Health (National Cervical Screening Programme) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00224785714e37a740cb9fd77d396bec2a7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224785714e37a740cb9fd77d396bec2a7f\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Just towards the end of the Committee stage, as the Chairman was leaving the Chair\u2014and he did so quite correctly\u2014a point of order was taken by a member of the Greens, who indicated that he had endeavoured to vote against the bill, but, for whatever reason, had not been heard, or, perhaps, did not express himself, etc. I just want to point out that any party or member at any time can seek leave to correct a vote if they wish to do so, and the member might want to take that into account at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022829a3fed07e1466f8359879cd8436531\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022829a3fed07e1466f8359879cd8436531\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I did in fact seek to register a vote against. I said \u201CThe Noes have it.\u201D but I was not heard. I sought a party vote, but I am a little new to this place. I noticed that when Mr Carter sought a point of order he was ignored, as well. So I was not heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00220866bdda6e11442ba9f6a85567599c47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220866bdda6e11442ba9f6a85567599c47\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d976d801274f88b16f2b7372b92051\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeking leave to change the vote for the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00225a98b4ea068245d3bc8e1017c6d39c9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a98b4ea068245d3bc8e1017c6d39c9f\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was no vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f2841818ac14010b8abef21260a7d43\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for a vote\u2014because I did so at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e86ef52c03bd458694574d0386f26252\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was no vote. What the member could do is seek leave to recommit the bill, and we would have to go back into Committee and take the vote in Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b15852e253fa44b2b8eb7eedc50186e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b15852e253fa44b2b8eb7eedc50186e5\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker, I know that the House, at the end of the day, can do just about anything it wants, I guess, by leave, but you may need to take advice from the Clerk. But I wondered, in the circumstances, whether it is possible to seek leave to amend the records in order to show that the Greens did want their vote recorded. That might be an easier way than recommitting the bill. I do not know that anyone would be keen to go back into Committee. But the member could seek leave. It may mean we have to suspend the Standing Orders, and I do not know that we would agree to that, necessarily. But, anyway, it is just a thought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb4c0e71285244a2a9e7b80d61a901de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb4c0e71285244a2a9e7b80d61a901de\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member could seek leave, but nobody voted. There was no vote\u2014that is what I am saying. So the member would have to seek leave for there to be a full vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00221c8c2900009542d4803a95ae4692ad38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c8c2900009542d4803a95ae4692ad38\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that that vote was on the title. It seems to me to be a total waste of time to go back to the title. The Greens will have their opportunity in due course to vote fully against the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca27a2a9bd474acba916ef798ec0f3ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca27a2a9bd474acba916ef798ec0f3ed\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That really is for the House to decide, on leave being sought. If Mr Ward wants to test that, remembering that anyone can deny leave, that is his right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257245e93a34c4c91a0d2f9a10ea23a16\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I will be denying leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b513b75233d04c598006959e6416b9b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b513b75233d04c598006959e6416b9b5\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E In view of the fact that Peter Brown has already said he will not permit it, there is no point in going ahead. So I will leave it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2e3fa53964c41c0bc38570a121c5c17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2e3fa53964c41c0bc38570a121c5c17\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a378eded4384c1abe139659f8d7278a\u0022\u003EDiplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222cbf9d942e17409e9b248291c1355337\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f10ffe1252443cac280f73c5fb0e92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f10ffe1252443cac280f73c5fb0e92\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade: I move, That the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill contains empowering provisions that will allow Orders in Council to be made under the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Act to implement two treaties. The first is the Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the International Criminal Court, which supplements obligations in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, to which New Zealand is already a party. The second is the amendment on the establishment and the privileges and immunities of delegation of the Commission of the European Community in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOrders made on the new provisions will be broadly similar to those that already exist for other bodies such as the International Court of Justice, the World Trade Organization, and the United Nations. Although the International Criminal Court is based in The Hague, much of its work will be undertaken elsewhere including, on occasions, New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENew section 10D will allow Orders in Council to confer certain privileges and immunities that are associated with the functioning of the International Criminal Court, and these fall into three categories. The first relates to the protections that the court itself needs if it sits in New Zealand. The second relates to protections for the International Criminal Court judges and staff, and the third relates to other persons involved in International Criminal Court proceedings, such as witnesses and lawyers. These protections ensure that the International Criminal Court and those involved in its proceedings can perform their particular functions or roles free of interference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAt the Committee stage, there was some concern that the bill did not make it sufficiently clear that privileges and immunities given to witnesses were limited in nature. New section 10D(2) states that the privileges and immunities that may be conferred are those \u201Crequired\u201D by specified articles of the Rome Statute and agreement. Those articles are spelt out with specific limits. Article 19(1) of the agreement, for example, provides that witnesses enjoy specified privileges and immunities \u201Cto the extent necessary for their appearance before the court and the purpose of giving evidence\u201D. This is clearly not a blanket immunity. The Order in Council to be made under new section 10D will state that the purposes for which the particular privileges and immunities will be given are as set out in the agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENew section 10E relates to the meetings of the States that are party to the Rome Statute, and implements article 13 of the privileges agreement. It is standard practice for those who are attending international meetings in other countries as part of a Government delegation to have protections similar to those of diplomats. Those protections are limited in nature and in duration. Moreover, the protections do not belong to individuals, but rather to the State or the body they represent. Like the privileges and immunities mentioned in section 10D, they can be waived. New Zealand representatives who attend meetings in other countries would be accorded such protections. We therefore need to be able to give them to others in the event that meetings are held here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe need for amendments relating to the European Community became apparent in the context of the implementation of the agreement concerning the office that the European Commission is setting up in Wellington. The commission proposes to open a new office this month, and it is keen to have the requisite privileges and immunities in place in preparation for that opening. Accordingly, I wish to record Phil Goff\u2019s appreciation of the cooperation of other parties in allowing these amendments to be dealt with as part of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe European Commission is defined as an international organisation, not a country. The present Act contains powers for the conferral of privileges and immunities on international organisations, but does not cover the establishment in New Zealand of delegations of those organisations and accompanying family members. The amendment provides a clear and explicit power to confer privileges and immunities on the members of the proposed European Commission delegation and their families. These privileges and immunities will be similar to those granted to the staff of diplomatic missions of foreign States, recognising the similar role those delegations will carry out in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAt the Committee stage, the question was raised whether there might also be a need to confer an amendment on the Consular Privileges and Immunities Act, to cover the possibility of a consular office being established by the European Commission in New Zealand at some point. This would, however, involve a substantial amendment, as that Act does not include a section encompassing international organisations. The European Commission has not indicated any wish at this point to open a consular type office in New Zealand. We consider that the present amendments appropriately focus on facilitating the opening by the European Commission of a diplomatic-type office in Wellington. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe passage of this bill will clear the way for New Zealand to implement two international agreements. Firstly, an Order in Council to be made under new sections 10D and 10E is the final stage in implementing New Zealand\u2019s obligation relating to the International Criminal Court. The ratification of the privileges agreement will reaffirm New Zealand\u2019s support both for the International Criminal Court itself and for the ideals it embodies. The order to be made under section 9AB will enable New Zealand to implement the establishment agreement with the European Commission and thereby facilitate the opening of its delegation office in New Zealand. The opening of such an office will serve to underpin and strengthen New Zealand\u2019s relationship with the commission. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba6872c50b9147d9969bf51ce93e822e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba6872c50b9147d9969bf51ce93e822e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E It is kind of sad during the second term of a Government to see a Minister stand in the House, in the third reading on a bill, and read a speech that some official somewhere has written for him. Quite clearly, the Hon Rick Barker has not a clue what this legislation is doing. He just read, parrot-fashion, a speech that some official somewhere had written for him, and that, to me, is sad. It shows the shallowness of a Government that really has no depth beyond its front bench. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Committee stage of this bill was just a tad messy, because what happened was that the Government introduced, with support from the Opposition, a Supplementary Order Paper to extend the provisions of the bill to cover not just the International Criminal Court and New Zealand\u2019s commitments under the Rome Statute, but the extension of diplomatic privileges and immunities to the delegation of the European Commission. We have no objection to that because, obviously, it is in New Zealand\u2019s interests to have the European Commission delegation present in New Zealand, but the Supplementary Order Paper 190 that was required to do it required quite a significant amount of amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat is a wee bit worrying is that I would not mind betting that not many members of the Committee of the whole House actually understood the detail of this Supplementary Order Paper, at all. We were told that the Parliamentary Counsel Office added a subclause to it at the last minute, and basically the Committee just had to accept the Government\u2019s claim that it would be all right. The Supplementary Order Paper has not been examined by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and it really is not very satisfactory when the Government does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Government should have known that the European Commission wanted to set up this delegation in New Zealand. I understand that personnel are currently in Australia ready to take up this position in New Zealand, so the Government should have known that this was required weeks ago, and it would not have been very difficult to incorporate this material in the original legislation. It shows a Government that is a bit at sixes and sevens, which I suppose is what happens once Governments start to do U-turns. They get in a mess, and that is when legislation that is less than satisfactory can slip through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe have to be honest. While we all agree with the intent of Supplementary Order Paper 190, which is now part read into the bill, I do not believe that there are too many members of this House who can absolutely assure the public of New Zealand that no clause in Supplementary Order Paper 190 will have any unexpected outcome that this House has not thought about\u2014especially when subclauses are added by the Parliamentary Counsel Office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Parliamentary Counsel Office does a wonderful job, but it just shows a somewhat messy process. When the Government wants something done, the officials and legal people at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade draft legislation, and then the Parliamentary Counsel Office has to add a bit to it just before the Supplementary Order Paper is introduced into the House. It is not a very satisfactory procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe other thing that was notable during the Committee stage was that the Green Party tried to introduce its own Supplementary Order Paper. They wanted diplomatic privileges and immunities extended to all their mates in the non-governmental organisations. Keith Locke wanted all his mates in Greenpeace to have the diplomatic privileges and immunities that the embassies and high commissions of other countries have in this country. Keith Locke wanted the Greenpeace wallahs to be able to get tax-free grog and to be immune from criminal prosecutions in this country, and all that kind of nonsense. It shows how out of touch with reality the Green Party is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI was the first one in this Parliament to say 2 or 3 years ago that it was a shame that someone who cared so much about this planet as Jeanette Fitzsimons did, did not spend a wee bit more time on it. Others have copied my comments, but I can claim that I was the first to say that in this Parliament. As for Keith Locke, I do not think he spends any time on this planet. God knows how his intellectual processes work, but I guess coming up with amendments like that, and thinking that Parliament would accept them, added a bit of humour to the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHowever, I think the public of New Zealand ought to be wary, because it is that Green Party, with its weird\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cccd86e750e54fe7862ce109c1ca00f2\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: And dangerous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce9c938548f452c996a4b4790c8eca3\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and dangerous ideas that keeps the Labour Government in office. The people of New Zealand need to know how damaging that has been for New Zealand\u2014the transport gridlock in Auckland, no progress on the Penlink toll road, and the Albany to Puhoi realignment B2 going nowhere are all Jeanette Fitzsimons\u2019 fault, and it is a weak, gutted Labour Government that lets the Greens do that to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me come to the other issue in the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill that causes me concern. I am someone who has had some experience of international treaties, having been a former Minister for International Trade and negotiated treaties on New Zealand\u2019s behalf. During the last phases of the Committee stage, I mentioned that I was a great supporter of New Zealand\u2019s constitutional arrangements, whereby the prerogative to negotiate international treaties is within the power of our executive Government. It holds the prerogative to negotiate international treaties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is not the case in every country. I guess the best-known country that has a different arrangement is the United States of America. In the United States, it is the Congress\u2014and in New Zealand it is Parliament that is the equivalent of the US Congress\u2014under the US constitution that has the prerogative to negotiate international treaties. Because it is totally unwieldy for Congress to decide on the detail of treaties, from time to time it votes to give negotiating authority to the executive. That does not happen too often. During President Clinton\u2019s entire administration\u20148 years\u2014the US Congress did not grant him negotiating authority for international treaties. For some reason or other, it did not trust President Clinton and his administration to negotiate international treaties. The Bush administration achieved what used to be called \u201Cfast-track\u201D and is now called a trade promotion authority, but the majority in Congress that voted the executive of President Bush the authority to negotiate trade treaties was not huge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EConstitutionally, that issue is quite an important one. I totally support the constitutional arrangement here in New Zealand, whereby the executive has the power to negotiate treaties. Where I have a problem with this bill is in the way it is drafted. Any future negotiation with regard to the International Criminal Court and the articles of the agreement associated with the Rome Statute that the Government enters into automatically becomes part of New Zealand law\u2014as provided for by new sections 10D and 10E. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe have always argued that it is OK for our executive to have the authority to negotiate international treaties, because anything that affects New Zealand\u2019s domestic law is the prerogative of this Parliament. Only Parliament can actually pass legislation that alters our domestic law. The way this bill is worded changes that. As I read it, any change to articles 18 to 22 of the Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the International Criminal Court that are within the area of article 48 of the Rome Statute would automatically change our domestic law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAs someone who supports the prerogative of our executive to negotiate international treaties, I believe that is a dangerous move. Only this Parliament should be able to pass legislation that alters our domestic law. This bill will enable agreements negotiated by the executive to change our domestic law, and I think that is not wise. Despite that, we will support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00220ec55f00a2df43a09c3916f768d45bd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ec55f00a2df43a09c3916f768d45bd1\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak briefly to support the third reading of the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill. Many of the reasons why this bill is being promoted have been canvassed in the debate already, and I do not intend to repeat them. Essentially, this is a mechanical piece of legislation, which gives effect to our agreement under the Rome Statute with regard to the International Criminal Court and, also, by way of Supplementary Order Paper 190, brings in the issue of representation by the European Commission in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere is one point from the Minister\u2019s speech that I want to comment on, which I do not regard as satisfactory. I was the one who raised, at various stages of the debate on this bill, the suggestion that we ought to look at the status of the Consular Privileges and Immunities Act, and I do not find acceptable the excuse that to do that would be difficult because there is not provision in that legislation\u2014which largely parallels the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Act\u2014for agreements with international organisations. It is not a difficult amendment to draft. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe point I made in the debate on the second reading and at the Committee stage was that it seemed entirely logical, given the similarity of those two Acts, to combine them into one, recognising that there will be situations where both diplomatic and consular privileges are being afforded to nation States\u2014or international organisations, in this particular instance\u2014and there will be some occasions where that is not the case. My point was that to continue a situation where two largely similar Acts operate independently in the same area did not seem to me to make a great deal of sense, and I do not think that the Minister\u2019s response\u2014admittedly, on the advice of his officials\u2014adequately represented that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI know, because I have had an interest in the area for many years, how rare amendments to both those Acts are. The circumstances that give rise to them are not common. It is not every day that we ratify an agreement to establish a body such as an International Criminal Court. It is not every day that an agency such as the European Union decides it wants to establish representation in New Zealand. Every time a situation like that arises, we have to pass an amendment to the primary legislation. That is not a problem, but my point is that we can minimise some of the difficulties, because there are some situations today where consular privileges have not been afforded to States that we give diplomatic privileges to, and they could be dealt with by dealing with this as one omnibus Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI am disappointed that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, through the Minister, seems reluctant to grasp that point. It is not a difficult issue. In fact, I recall discussing some years ago with the Minister the prospect of a member\u2019s bill to achieve just that goal. I was not told then that that would be horrendously difficult to do, so I am very disappointed in the response that the Minister gave in that respect. I hope there will be a time when the issue can be revisited. While it does not arise in respect of an agency like the International Criminal Court, which clearly will not seek to have consular offices or consular privileges, it may well arise in respect of the European Union. The fact that it is not yet on the European Union\u2019s agenda is hardly an excuse for not doing it, and we are also acting a little slowly, given that the European Union announced the name of the person who would be its representative in New Zealand at least a couple of months ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis bill is non-contentious. I am certainly happy to support its passage, as is United Future, but I do make a plea that the issues that have been raised regarding the standardisation of the legislation not be dismissed as lightly as they have been by the Minister tonight. I know that the officials do not like extra work. I am sorry about that, but I actually think that that is a logical step forward and ought to be entertained. With those words, I am happy to indicate support for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00227020723162e8492fb037a8b26797b613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227020723162e8492fb037a8b26797b613\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to support the third reading of the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill. It is a very important bill, and its extension of diplomatic privileges and immunities to representatives of the European Union will be very valuable to us in drawing closer to that important regional Parliament. We have had many delegations here. We are getting closer in all respects\u2014politically, economically, socially, and culturally\u2014to the European Union, and this bill will set us further down that track, and remove an obstacle in terms of diplomatic privileges and immunities for European Union representatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think that it is important to look at the origin of diplomatic immunity, as a background to some of the debate that took place in the second reading and Committee stage, in particular. Diplomatic immunity is provided not because diplomats are superior beings who should be beyond the law and can commit crimes with impunity, but because they are often in a country where the Government is quite hostile to their policies. Sometimes, diplomats might be representing a country that is almost on the verge of war with the host country. The idea of diplomatic immunity is to stop harassment of, or domestic hostility toward, diplomats being expressed in some sort of frame-up, or in some inadequate judicial process, which could easily take place if a Government wants to promote more hostility towards another Government. Having diplomatic immunity is very important in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EUnder this bill, immunity is extended to the particular court process of the International Criminal Court. I think that the idea is to stop the proceedings of that court from being interfered with by domestic jurisdictions, and by certain witnesses, who may be politically charged. In the discussion at the Committee stage, the name Milosevic was brought up, and the example was given that a lot of people around the world would be hostile to him if he were the star witness at an International Criminal Court hearing in New Zealand. Nobody has great sympathy for him, and nobody would want\u2014from any simple, moral basis\u2014someone like Milosevic, who has committed such crimes against humanity, to be immune were he in New Zealand at such a hearing, and had he committed some offence against our domestic law. But if we look at the broader context of universally protecting the International Criminal Court from interference, then we would give immunity even to someone like Milosevic, if he were a witness or defendant at an International Criminal Court trial in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ETo extend that line of thinking, certain nations are extending that jurisdiction in an extraterritorial manner, in terms of the court cases that have taken place\u2014or have begun\u2014around the world against people who have committed crimes, such as Pinochet and Ariel Sharon. In the Pinochet case, Spain and Britain held court proceedings as to whether he should be tried. The Spanish wanted to try Pinochet. He ended up in Britain, and there was a question over whether he should be extradited. All those proceedings occurred under the domestic jurisdictions of Spain and Britain. We could, under the procedures of the International Criminal Court, have hearings for war crimes, or other crimes, in relation to Pinochet and his colleagues\u2019 activities in Chile. It could take place in London. We would not necessarily want those court proceedings to be interfered with by claims of domestic jurisdiction from Britain, or, if the hearing were held in Spain, by claims of domestic jurisdiction from Spain. We would want the proceedings protected, even though, separate from the International Criminal Court hearing, one might support Spain or Britain moving against someone like Pinochet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Belgium Supreme Court last year said that Ariel Sharon could be put on trial in Belgium for the crime of genocide, which he allegedly committed while he was Israel\u2019s Defense Minister in 1982\u2014he is charged with being responsible for the deaths of between 1,000 and 2,000 people, in the Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon. There is legitimacy in that trial proceeding against Sharon in Belgium, but, again, we would not want that reality to interfere with an International Criminal Court proceeding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe even have the situation of overseas jurisdictions applying in the case of one of our citizens Helen Todd, who initiated proceedings in a US court against an Indonesian general for the murder, by Indonesians, of Kamil Bamadhaj in East Timor a few years ago. I think that all those cases are very legitimate, and they parallel what is happening in the International Criminal Court, in terms of trying to bring to justice people who have committed crimes against humanity. I think it is important to include the immunities and diplomatic privileges applied in this bill in the proceedings of the International Criminal Court, so that there is an integrity to International Criminal Court proceedings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWith those few words, I indicate the Green Party\u2019s support for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00225efd8118d4d24abf8405ee05880df28e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225efd8118d4d24abf8405ee05880df28e\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise for the ACT party to advise the House of the reasons why we will vote against the third reading of this bill. We will do so primarily as a way of recording, once again, our concern that New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty, and the position of New Zealand\u2019s service people on operations overseas, may one day be very sadly affected by the operation of the International Criminal Court. Offering immunities to judges, prosecutors, and other staff of the International Criminal Court is not a matter that seriously concerns us\u2014indeed, we think that it is inevitable and sensible, should the International Criminal Court ever operate in New Zealand. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, chaired by the Hon Peter Dunne, did the same kind of superficial job on this bill as was done on the bill passed in 2000\u2014which this bill expands and makes more easy to implement. ACT will therefore vote against the third reading to remind the House that bills implementing international treaties should be taken very seriously indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Hon Lockwood Smith mentioned that when we bring international treaties into our law by reference, they could have meanings that we completely fail to anticipate. The direct purpose of this bill is to extend immunities that are very longstanding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E As Mr Keith Locke for the Greens said, the immunities are an attempt to ensure that nations can be civilised with each other. Diplomacy cannot occur unless diplomatic agents can be sure they will not be taken hostage, and their presence in a foreign country will not be used as a chance to exercise pressure and use them as symbols or targets for action that is really part of international position taking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWe do not want any prospect of being seen in the company of nations like Iran, which seized the American mission people and held them for over 200 days. We do not want to be seen as the kind of country that is simply unsafe, and where diplomats can be insulted by robbery, or crime, or otherwise with impunity. So this bill should be relatively straightforward in that area, but as well as our concern to make a point about the International Criminal Court, we believe that this bill is a piece of clumsy drafting, and the select committee did not seem to take note of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe bill has added in power to exempt or give immunity to witnesses or other persons who may come in for International Criminal Court proceedings, without recording that it is perfectly appropriate for New Zealand to confine any immunities to the sorts of risks that Mr Keith Locke mentioned\u2014that is, the risk of someone using New Zealand law to try to make political points by seizing people who have come here for a court proceeding and charging them with offences essentially relating to things that have happened outside New Zealand and perhaps many years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is quite proper that New Zealand can reassure people coming here for International Criminal Court proceedings, including witnesses who may be thugs in their own country or who may have robbed their own country, taken their treasury and put it in Switzerland. Despite the foulness of their deeds, if those sorts of people are to come here for court proceedings, they need to know that they at least will not face New Zealand law in respect of that kind of matter, in case that frustrates the purposes of the International Criminal Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EBut I can see no reason whatsoever that they should be immune from the ordinary operation of New Zealand law for offences that they commit while they are here. Why should New Zealand allow yet another category of people to ignore their parking tickets, at the bottom end; or their manslaughter offences, at another stage; or even, as I understand it, their rapes? The Foreign Affairs and Trade Committee might, for example, have asked the Government just how many rapes or serious assaults have been committed by people with the benefit of diplomatic immunity in the period of the Labour Government. I would venture that it would shock people to know how often people with immunity do commit offences, and in the case of decent countries get bundled home, and in the case of other countries, stay on as an affront to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere was no reason why this bill could not have made a significant distinction between people like the judges of the criminal court who could be expected to need a very wide form of immunity and the hangers-on, some of whom we can almost certainly predict will be undesirables. Why should they, for example, be allowed to bring their liquor cabinets in without paying duty? There is nothing in this bill that tells us that will not occur. As an amusing aside, we did find out that a bunch of European Union diplomats are hanging about somewhere outside New Zealand, waiting until we pass this bill to get in. One wonders whether it is because their bags are clanking with bottles and they cannot bear the thought of paying their duty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022895124e91a3b40d88821a5c71d53eba6\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: And cigars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3a687d5aaea4853b9087fcf1d85bed5\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: And cigars. Or is it because they have children they cannot control and they know they had better not bring them here until they have immunity for the traffic offences and worse that their children are going to commit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E During the Committee stage the Minister in the chair was given a chance to explain exactly why there is such urgency, and why the European Union mission members appeared to think New Zealand is the kind of country they cannot come to until they are immune from local law. Could it have had anything to do with the abolition of the Privy Council? Do they now fear that perhaps we have kangaroo courts here and there is no right of appeal to an independent judiciary?  Perhaps the European Union has been watching what is happening and they realise that now they would be subject\u2014 [Interruption]. The former? The member thinks it is the fatted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbbed3aa20124b9986350a0463c4a22c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s the bottles in the bags.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208b61ff86de04df688b35cbfa699add7\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The bottles clinking in the bags? Whatever it is, it is puzzling to us that the Minister did not choose to explain why European mission members would be so afraid of our justice system. It does seem to me that at least the leaders of the missions might have taken the risk of being here on their very best behaviour without immunity and seen whether there was a problem while we put this legislation through at an ordinary pace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI want to come back to the principal reason why we are voting against this bill\u2014this uncritical acceptance of the International Criminal Court. This is a court that the United States has not joined and that the United States is so concerned about that it has gone round to somewhere between 60 and 80 countries\u2014we do not know exactly how many have signed up\u2014and got agreements that these countries will not subject United States personnel to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. In other words, the country that should be our chief ally has decided that this court is a risk to it, and before it will have its servicemen deployed in many countries, they must undertake not to hand its people over to this court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhatever this Government may think about international agencies, that is a very serious consideration for us. This court could be, as the US fears, a victors\u2019 tribunal. It has undefined crimes. We have put into our criminal law, in effect by proxy, crimes that no New Zealand lawyer can define. No one knows exactly what the crime of aggression is going to be, and it will be applied by judges who may share nothing of our history or our traditional respect for the rule of law\u2014for rules known in advance and for the protective rules of evidence that are designed to prevent miscarriage of justice processes that are, in effect, glorified lynch mobs. We will not control who the judges are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill should have been rejected by more in this House to make the same point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00227433ef48ec824e00933676d7f35ec74a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227433ef48ec824e00933676d7f35ec74a\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E National supports this legislation. I feel I must elaborate on this point, given the statements by the member from the ACT party. I know that ACT has very strong feelings about the degree of involvement that New Zealand should have with international institutions generally. I think it would be fair to say that ACT takes a sceptical view, not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adab0a4fe46b4620b393de9bfcb60987\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: A New Zealand first view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022972f3d386fb7428980d9123682d87af2\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: A New Zealand first view! I would say a sceptical view in the sense that it does not fully rule out engagement with international institutions. ACT members are realistic enough to know that New Zealand has to have an appropriate engagement, but at the same time they remain suspicious of what I would loosely describe as the international project, which is the broader extension of international law across the relations between States and also as it applies to individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis is something of a century-old project, and what has been attempted through the course of that project is to provide a complete framework of rules and principles that will ultimately lead to peaceful relations between States. Members might say that sounds all very noble and idealistic, and of course it is, because the ultimate ambition of such a project is to prevent the scourge of war.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E Whereas in domestic life crime and violence are always prohibited and are always, so to speak, outlawed activities, in international relations war is permissible for self defence\u2014be it immediate, imminent, or threatened. The war in Iraq was supported on the basis that there was an enormous risk from weapons of mass destruction, and that Saddam Hussein had the most flagrant breaches of international humanitarian law. Most notable were the gassing of tens of thousands of his citizens, and those of other countries, and threatening to do the same, as well. On top of that, he was in gross and continuing breach of literally dozens of United Nations resolutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESo the international law framework is quite different. The use of armed force is permissible. It is not as if it is a matter of just the isolated force we might see from a police force. It is wide scale, and it allows and accepts that innocent civilians will be killed. Broadly speaking, there may not be accountability. So the international project is to try to minimise, and ultimately eliminate, that scourge of mankind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe creation of the International Criminal Court is part of the framework to reduce the scope and breadth of war, so that it does not affect civilians to the extent it has in the past. Ultimately, the ambition must be to eliminate war and, in that sense, the International Criminal Court is part of that framework. That is why I have consistently said to the ACT party\u2014notwithstanding its concerns, which I believe, fundamentally, to be imagined rather than real\u2014that it should reverse its position. I certainly would like ACT members to acknowledge that when the House passed the substantive legislation in 2000, they would have then recognised the reality of that, and at least accede to the legislation we will be passing today. I made that statement in my first reading speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EACT members have, of course, raised various serious concerns. Mr Franks, to be fair, has done something that the select committee failed to do. That was to point out some of the deficiencies of the bill. I think everyone would acknowledge\u2014and Mr Franks himself has acknowledged\u2014it is appropriate that the judges, the prosecutors, and the registrar have immunities. But why would we extend, on the face of the legislation, that same kind of immunity to witnesses? It is worth bearing in mind whom those people are likely to be. They themselves will frequently be people who participated in the war crime itself, and in a sense they would have been offered immunity to testify against a more serious criminal. Yet in this legislation, on the face of it, we are extending to them the immunities that might be expected of judges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI know that Government members, if they chose to take calls\u2014which they have not, I note\u2014would say that the immunity is of a different kind; that article 48(4) is different. But no one reading the legislation, on the face of it, would know that. I believe that because legislation is not just for experts but has important symbolic value, accessible to the people, then the legislation on crucial issues like this\u2014this is not some passing matter\u2014ought to be plain, on the face of it, that the immunity of such people is limited only to the extent of giving evidence. They do not have some kind of general immunity. That offer was made to the Government last night. It could have agreed to the Supplementary Order Paper I submitted to it, and passed it into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s excuse\u2014and it could be seen as no more than that\u2014was that if she did that in this case, then on every international convention she would have a statute that was a foot high. Well, that is simply fatuous. The reality is that this bill deals with the International Criminal Court, and with the most serious crimes imaginable. Surely in that situation it is important that Parliament signals as clearly as possible the difference between the witness who has received immunity to testify, and the judge. I am disappointed in the Government that it did not take that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe other point I would like to refer to in passing is the extension of diplomatic immunities to the European Commission. Of itself, that provision is perfectly sensible. No one would doubt that. But one has to ask whether it is really necessary to debate a Supplementary Order Paper on the same day it is introduced\u2014that is, yesterday\u2014because of extreme public urgency. Is this a body that we have not had any association with for the last 40 years? Is it not the case that European Commissioners and their staff have visited this country numerous times, and that we extend to them all the normal courtesies? What on earth was the case for the extraordinary urgency of the Supplementary Order Paper in that instance? It is bad parliamentary practice to introduce to this House legislation that distorts the very purpose of the original bill\u2014which was about using the International Criminal Court\u2014and to use that device to extend privileges to the European Commission, as a matter of urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would implore the Government to have some respect for this Parliament and to introduce legislation in a proper and timely manner so that it can be sent to a select committee to have the issues properly considered, rather than have the extraordinary spectacle of legislation being done in haste\u2014and, I would be prepared to bet, to be amended yet again by Mr Rick Barker in one of his numerous Statutes Amendment Bills. Those bills will be circulating later this year. He will say: \u201COh, by the way, there was a minor error\u2026\u201D, or was it a major error in that Supplementary Order Paper introduced without any consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to conclude on the point that the importance of the International Criminal Court cannot be doubted. It is important that we pass this legislation\u2014but we do so with those caveats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ec2a436c13c04a86903f29f1627b2282\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb52e21723e44104a97f2e6d0318667f\u0022\u003ECivil Aviation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d51f19fb76124fbf83286656d7395a53\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe9130e0d1284470b2d15bd2aba4a681\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022299b8ee8d8134b8dbf35edbf4dd0f1d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022299b8ee8d8134b8dbf35edbf4dd0f1d8\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E The commencement and purpose clauses of the Civil Aviation Amendment Bill are fairly good indications of what is contained in the legislation. By that I mean that the purpose clause itself sets out, firstly, that the purpose of the bill is to implement the mutual recognition agreements, which we on this side of the Chamber will be exploring in some detail during the course of the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ESecondly, the purpose of the bill is to deal with certain types of unruly behaviour that may occur on an aircraft, by providing penalties for that behaviour. Members will be aware that when the House considered this matter during the second reading, I raised a number of concerns about the way in which that portion of the bill was drafted in respect of unruly behaviour, and whether an adult having control over a minor was to be included in that legislation and in those offences. We will certainly be asking the Minister in the chair, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, to take a call and answer some questions on the nature of the care and protection of a child, whether well-behaved or unruly, who is the charge of an unruly adult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill provides for \u201Ccivil liability for delay suffered by passengers during domestic carriage\u201D. My understanding of this particular portion of the bill is that currently there is provision for civil liability to be incurred by an airline in respect of delays and resultant economic loss\u2014loss of opportunity, one presumes, and the like. However, what this particular provision in the bill does is codify, in a clear and substantial way, the manner in which those particular charges and liabilities are to be dealt with, and, in fact\u2014if memory serves, and the Minister may want to correct me if I am wrong on this\u2014the remedies that flow from those liabilities being enforced against a domestic airline carrier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI believe that the provisions contained in Part 2\u2014without wanting to pre-empt the debate on that particular part, which we will get to shortly\u2014provide a large and wide-ranging scope of subjects, given the nature of those three areas that I have just outlined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAs we turn our minds and our thoughts for one moment to the commencement date, one presumes that the Minister has a grand scheme in place. It is a pretty confusing commencement date because on the one hand\u2014and I know that my colleague Brian Connell, the MP for Rakaia, is very keen to explore this particular point in a little more detail\u2014we have sections 4(1), 5, 6(1), and 7, etc. coming into force on 31 December 2003, or an earlier date as appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council. So some sections come into force on that date. I see my honourable colleague nodding frantically because, of course, his knowledge in these areas far surpasses mine. That chunk is to come into force on 31 December 2003\u2014well, that will not happen. Presumably those particular sections will come into force on the date appointed by the Governor-General. The rest of the Act comes into force on 1 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267e8dbcb87fa4eccb494118bee6a5dbd\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not that far away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae9644eb2134d7186e602357f9e13f5\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is not that far away, as the senior whip quite rightly points out in my ear. We know that there are only 28 days in this month\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e26cb38f93e4f2e9e5fc15741e61025\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: There are 29, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2ab0254c6d04dd881fc0ea06cd1cab1\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: My 5 years in this Parliament have been a blur. One would presume that the Minister has a grand plan for 1 March. This legislation will have to be moved very promptly indeed, unless the Minister has tabled an amendment. Has the Minister tabled an amendment on the commencement date? He has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d495a4a171f64d2389625ff0ca04ab6b\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m coming to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad9a8544680841a597c9bfc5275f6be8\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: He is coming to that. The Minister will take a call on an even more confusing aspect of the commencement date. We have some sections that came into force last year, presumably, making them retrospective now in the event that the Governor-General does not give her consent until after 1 March. What happens if the Governor-General does not give her consent until after 1 March? Has the Minister thought through what is clearly a confusing and difficult issue for him in the early days of the Committee stage of this bill? One would hope that he would take the opportunity to clarify these issues, because he has not got off to a good start. He has not got off to a good start at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002248e73c5b883b4a7089d7000724e1decf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248e73c5b883b4a7089d7000724e1decf\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to follow my colleague from Rangitikei, Simon Power, in exploring the matter of the commencement dates. I ask the Minister to give us a comment on this particular aspect, because I was just starting to search through the bill to see what it meant. I only got to page 7, when it started to get to the stage of being just about impossible to know exactly what commences when\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d1e275003e14ff1b3ff6e9e6b186819\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps I can help the member. There are amendments on the Table that help the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a90c6954f2814c0fb7f3427f9cf44ba7\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Could my colleague pass me the amendments? It may help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022881369439a364103b2fb4ddd5ea9ed73\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Which ones would the member like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb7f01e0ce2f409c97fbb7fe551805ed\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The ones regarding the commencement dates. I hope they are not too clear, otherwise they will take away a lot of my speech. I am looking at the amendment that states: \u201CTo omit from the heading to Part 1 the words \u201831 December 2003 or earlier\u2019, and substitute the word \u2018a\u2019.\u201D What does that mean? The second reads \u201CTo omit from the heading to Part 2 the word \u2018March\u2019, and substitute the word \u2018June\u2019.\u201D All we know now is that the rest of the Act comes into force on 1 June. Is that what the Minister is telling us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e69a79fbe37e4be2b9f52df13ffd0a7a\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd5b87f1400046699fdd8c334b6b1144\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is fine, but it does not help me with the question I was going to ask the Minister, which is: if we look at the commencement date, clause 2(1) states that \u201Csections 4(1), 5, 6(1) and (2),\u201D for example, come into force on 31 December or on \u201Can earlier date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council.\u201D I ask the Minister whether that is correct. That is what it says, is it not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213c1d6ec333d4be68ead16c11ec428cb\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re on to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2fc421a26224da29e259e8c2f60b1ab\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on to it. But it is confusing that clause 6(1) and (2) commences on 31 December, so why does clause 6(3) not commence on the same date? I am trying to understand the difference between clause 6(1) and (2), and clauses 6(3) and 7, for example. I cannot see any rational difference. There may be a good reason why those provisions are left out and will now come into force on 1 June, and the Minister might like to give some explanation about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere are many other clauses the Minister might want to explain to the Committee, and to the many people who will be listening, as to what the difference is between those parts that now commence on 1 June and the rest that will commence on a date appointed by the Governor-General\u2014because they obviously cannot come into force on 31 December 2003. Even I have clicked on to that bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to raise with the Minister is this\u2014and he might want to help me, because I am not that familiar with the bill; he might have clicked on to that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c52e903adf14784b0e54e248111f44d\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: We can tell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0aa96fdb53f4402985c30776a768137\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is OK, because I am doing my best\u2014and I bet that the bell rings before I sit down. I want to get on to the purpose of the bill, which is to implement the Australia - New Zealand aviation mutual recognition agreements. I want the Minister to clarify what that means. Does it now mean that Air New Zealand can negotiate a right, or has a right, to fly domestically in Australia? Is that where the legislation is going? Does that mean Air New Zealand can land planes in Alice Springs and take passengers from Alice Springs to Darwin? Are we expanding here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237f0f321ae46496ab923af56863fb38c\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Could well be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213878f9ca5494deb878aee0d58a1be13\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Are we on to it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a875f26fa7ee43ddad9d612eb27681a8\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re on to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c3e026c4634be299c3e1f8a98f53f9\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Really? Good grief! Very good, so does that also mean that Qantas will continue to fly in here, which it tends to do anyway, and offer competition? In other words, I ask whether what we are doing is balancing up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b588e84b4c424f198d0f51d01b5f520d\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a305ee8de165413fbf9639b2b1aa44c1\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have to say that that is a positive thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe Minister might want to comment then on what reports he has had of the implications the agreement has for Air New Zealand, its ability to compete, and its ability to fly as a successful airline in that field. Does the fact that it can expand into a population base of some 18 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea86cb9304f14292beb23063b53a5062\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: No, 19 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a276b7726f84d41a3635ec7568ffc1d\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, let us not be pedantic\u201419 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022de979f1847434f9ca5c85b55cee7e723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de979f1847434f9ca5c85b55cee7e723\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I want to bring to the notice of the Committee that this bill reflects the current chaos in the Government. I say that because here we have an amendment tabled today by the Minister, because the Government has only just realised the bill was being implemented on\u2014guess when\u201431 December 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fb345b16c77436f81f94afa0d9423d2\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: When was that amendment tabled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022056c2635f8c641d6938b1648456962fe\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Today. That is amazing, is it not? This is a Government that has the full resources of the State behind it, yet it does not realise until the very day a bill has to be debated that\u2014gosh\u2014\u201CThere is a big problem here, Minister.\u201D One can imagine the frantic phoning of officials to the Minister to ensure he got it right. It is reflective of the extraordinary U-turns, about-faces, and pragmatic approaches this Government is now taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is the little things that show the deep distress in the Government. It cannot even handle simple things like getting legislation in order. At least, tabling a Supplementary Order Paper in a timely fashion would have shown that the Government recognised it was about to implement retrospective legislation. As I say, it is something I guess we will see more of. We will see a lot more of this panicked action by Ministers under pressure and scrambling to keep ahead. There is a saying about ducks on the water: the pond is placid, the ducks are going along smoothly, but the feet are paddling furiously underneath. The problem now is that the water is no longer placid, the feathers are ruffled, and the panic is there for all to see. This kind of amendment is simply indicative of that, and we will be seeing more of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to point out a couple of other important measures in this legislation. One of them is the repeal of the Carriage by Air Act. I am sure the New Zealand First spokesperson on transport, Mr Brown, will be particularly familiar with that Act, because it is a hallowed piece of legislation, known by a generation of those who operate in the field of air carriage as containing the cardinal rules one has to know. I am sure that, as a person long experienced in the carriage of goods, Mr Brown will be lamenting the passing of that legislation\u2014now to be buried within civil aviation legislation itself. Something that generations of carriers\u2014and, indeed, law students through their lectures and practices\u2014have had will now be submersed into this broader legislation. I guess there will be aviation lawyers out there tonight who will be lamenting its passing and having to revise their documentation, and so forth, because they will no longer be able to rely on that trusty piece of legislation, the Carriage by Air Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to conclude, however, on the important trans-Tasman mutual recognition agreements. We will be speaking at length to those. They are important. They signal a united market. I guess what that also represents\u2014and this is perhaps the most significant issue\u2014is this serious intent by the Government to destroy competition in the New Zealand marketplace, which will inevitably have consumers paying more. Everyone is going to say that the trans-Tasman mutual recognition legislation around air services is a good thing\u2014it is a single market. On the face of it, I guess no one would dispute that, but contained within that legislation is an intense explosion of costs that consumers will now have to bear, because the legislation is one of the foundations of the merger between Qantas and Air New Zealand. Everyone in the country knows\u2014even the Government\u2014that the consumer will be worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022befec8e55fb649a2836e5e892142f298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022befec8e55fb649a2836e5e892142f298\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps I can help my learned friend Dr Wayne Mapp who, I believe, has some legal training. If he looks at the Supplementary Order Paper that I have just tabled this evening, the dates that he refers to as having been scandalously not changed earlier, etc. are two dates inside the bill\u2014one is buried in the schedules, and one is on page 54\u2014that were inadvertently missed during the drafting and the earlier Supplementary Order Paper that changes the dates. I want to check with Dr Mapp that he has a copy of the bill in front of him, and that he has realised that it goes right out to the fifties in page numbers. I think it is pretty important that he does look at it thoroughly. Can I just tell the member, and other members who may be interested\u2014and I think Mr Connell was going to speak at length on this issue, as I was told by his colleague\u2014that there are different commencement dates for different purposes. One of the reasons that we had different dates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227af9070b21ab417fb0d0a21a2a574ee8\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about retrospective\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bac5bf898629461b968111604565c3d5\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, not at all. This bill is not retrospective. The reason for an earlier start date originally being printed on the bill was that the Australian Government proposed to have its bill introduced and passed a lot earlier last year. Our bill was to follow. The Australian Government delayed its bill; it has not yet passed it. That is why its mutual recognition legislation and ours have to be kept relatively in step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e89e14ff9c064beda0433eeed3603da9\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why cannot we pass ours until they pass theirs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285752dd7188941e188ca08d5b8377b7f\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly the point I am coming to. Most of the provisions of this bill come into force at the royal assent, but the provisions with regard to the mutual recognition bit come into force at a date yet to be determined and to be in concert with the Australians so that we are not out of step with them. Dr Mapp asked me why I did not put that bit of paper on the Table weeks ago. Because the drafter told me only yesterday that he had inadvertently missed those two dates buried in the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221316a4717e2b468fa2f09204c07d0cad\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Blame the officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298468ffb09648ef908734d93af6eb21\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all, I am not blaming the officials. I think they have done a cracker job in sorting this bill, which has a number of provisions that are widely supported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI want to come to the comments on the issue of unruly passengers, because I think it is one of the most important parts of this bill. In addition to enabling Australian airlines to operate in New Zealand under Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority oversight, it complementarily allows New Zealand operators to operate in Australia under the New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority oversight. So that is the major feature of the bill. But the bill also deals with the security of passengers and crew on international and domestic flights in addressing the issue of unruly passengers regardless of whose airline they are on. The provisions relating to civil liability for delay, I think referred to earlier, from the old Carriage By Air Act, continue. That was a matter of some controversy, and the purpose of that is to give people redress if they are delayed in an avoidable way other than because of things like safety or weather issues. The provisions of the bill also bring the law in that area into conformity, particularly with the accident compensation scheme, and transfer various provisions from that Act to this Act. Also, the New Zealand Transport Strategy is a very important document put out by the Government in terms of our future in transport. Provisions of this bill contribute to aspects of the New Zealand Transport Strategy. I will leave it at that for now, because I am sure members would like to ask a whole bunch of questions. I would recommend that they read the commentary from the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which did a very good job in terms of the processing of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022579dd670300a4fc89f0a0bfe8140f9a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022579dd670300a4fc89f0a0bfe8140f9a2\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Committee for the invitation to make a contribution to this debate. I also thank my senior whip for giving me the opportunity, as well. He knows that I have been thirsting to do this. I also thank my learned colleague Simon Power for making the Committee aware of my expertise in this area. However, on reflection, and given that my learned colleagues and the Minister have now dealt with this issue of retrospectivity so very well, I do not think it is appropriate or necessary for me to relitigate this component, but with one small exception\u2014that is, to point out that Mr Power made a slight error. However, it has subsequently been corrected. He said that the commencement date would be March, but what he meant to say was June. I do not blame him for getting it wrong, because as the Minister has just explained, the Supplementary Order Paper was put on the Table only today. That made it very difficult for people to get across it. We are a dedicated bunch, and we read everything that is put in front of us, but on this occasion it was not there in good time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI would like to take a moment to recognise, as the Minister has already pointed out, the good work that the select committee did on putting this legislation together. I was not a member of it, but it is clear that the committee worked in a very cooperative and constructive way. The consequence is that we get good law. I really lament the fact that we cannot use this model more constructively across this House. It would be nice for the 80 percent of legislation that we all tend to agree with that we put some structure together where we could agree with that, and the 20 percent that we do not agree on we could really have quality debate and get down to a punch-up on the issues that are extremely important to us and the points that really separate the parties in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI now turn to the purpose and introduction. I agree with the Minister that it is important that we all read the commentary, and I have done that. The most important component of this bill is that it aims to remove the regulatory barriers to airlines operating under the air services arrangements with Australia by allowing progressive implementation of mutual recognition of aviation certification. This mutual recognition terminology is really just code for mutual cooperation and good sense. On that basis I commend the legislation. It is sensible legislation because it has to be good for the travelling public. It streamlines laws, and, more important, it gives them teeth. It will give the travelling public confidence that the airlines and the aviation authority are taking their safety seriously and that their safety is paramount, and that those who jeopardise that safety will be punished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThat is something that we should all reflect on\u2014punished in a way that is not punitive, but basically reflects that we now believe that behaviour and safety in and around airlines is absolutely paramount. Members of this Parliament know, as people who travel regularly, that every time we leave home we expect we will return home safely, but that is not something we can take for granted, which is why I believe that the construct of this bill has been well-thought-through, and it is very well considered. I again commend the work that the select committee has done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EAs I read through the commentary I could not help but reflect on the fact that the term for mutual recognition agreements, \u201CANZA\u201D, is very close to that of Anzac. It is a pity that we do not take more seriously our Australasian security commitments. I lament the fact that our Anzac spirit is dying, and it is something that I deeply regret. I give the undertaking that once the National Party is back in Government\u2014and that will not be very long\u2014we will put that right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d53de2d1472449dba80f74fb58c9c7d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d53de2d1472449dba80f74fb58c9c7d0\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I hope that member will be allowed another call because I would love to hear what he meant by punishing people in way that is not punitive. That is one of the best \u201COrwellians\u201D I have heard for a long time\u2014that is positive punishment! I thank the Minister for taking a call to explain some of the issues we were puzzled about. I wish more Ministers would do that in the Committee stage instead of just sitting there and ignoring the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe ACT party supports this bill. I was part of the select committee that heard the submissions and watched very dramatic videos of what happens when dangerous goods are taken on to aircraft. However, I think it is coming in far too early. We have not explored enough ways that we can actually deal with unruly passengers. For instance, if we look at some of the articles that were written after September 11\u2014and one of them was a very good one written in the Atlantic Monthly\u2014we would see that it has been pointed out that we take everything away from passengers when they get on a plane and they are not armed with anything at all, and there is absolutely no deterrent on the plane for people not to indulge in some sort of terrorist actions, and a deterrent for other unruly passengers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eefdfadd61946309b0da3924902b2f9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfebac94bfb749809e08843ae711b6e5\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: National Party members laugh, but if we take a look at El-Al, the Israeli airline\u2014how many million people in the world would like to blow that out of the sky\u2014it has air marshals; it has deterrents; it has very, very strict security, and very well trained and well-aware people who travel on that airline. If a person were on a plane and there was the chance that in every seat there was a passenger who might be armed who is a law-abiding citizen, it would perhaps deter that person from getting intoxicated and starting to attack people. If that is going to far\u2014I am just suggesting these things, and the Minister is looking pretty aghast\u2014the officials could have considered the position of arming the aircrew. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe had a classic incident on a Qantas flight last year where the aircrew were attacked with a pair of sharpened chopsticks. This poor air steward had nothing to defend himself with except his hands. That could have brought down the whole plane. That plane could have easily come down. What do we do? We continue to strip people of any form of self-defence when they go on to an aircraft. They are not even allowed a pair of tweezers any more. I would like the Minister to tell us whether any research was done on this. Maybe we could put it to democracy and ask the passengers what they think, but then this Government does not favour \u201Cone person, one vote\u201D. So we had better not risk that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E I would like the Minister to take a call to tell us what research went into this, and whether he used the officials to look outside the square and to examine other alternatives. I believe there is some merit in revisiting the situation where we actually take all forms of self-defence off people when they go on to an aeroplane. I think there is another way that we could deter people. The bill states that it is the purpose to deter certain types of unruly behaviour that might occur on aircraft. I think there are other creative ways that we could look at this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI remember just after September 11 when some passengers boarded a plane in the United States to fly somewhere and the pilot, instead of just saying: \u201CGood morning ladies and gentlemen, thank you for flying with us.\u201D, said: \u201CDon\u2019t be nervous. If anyone gets up and decides to hijack this plane, you all band together and use whatever you can to attack that person.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022b910f2e6d15b4e349d8dd8b70940a074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b910f2e6d15b4e349d8dd8b70940a074\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220a64aaf872f04aa5910c80edc2d81273\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000681\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 180 in the name of the Hon Harry Duynhoven to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000682\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f59c1978923a410c8f113ec36864b533\u0022\u003EPart 2 and Schedules 2, 3, and 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5bdaf92e994f159b7f1b4f12f009b5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: We will take Part 2 and Schedules 2, 3 and 4 together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022377ef6a661fa4c3aacb715150b4cdc1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022377ef6a661fa4c3aacb715150b4cdc1a\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I will concentrate my contribution on this part on unruly passenger offences and leave the other parts to my colleagues Dr Wayne Mapp and Brian Connell to reflect their expertise in those particular areas, if for no other reason. I shall concentrate on unruly passenger offences, because the ACT MP Deborah Coddington finished her contribution by referring to passengers sort of banding together in some type of posse-like manner to destroy anybody on an aircraft\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afa17b44eb7849a4948f46432bb33151\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Smoking in the toilets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c9a80594d542128054ecfd76754c6e\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right. We will have to give away all fun under this Government. That will be the next thing. The unruly passenger offences are worth having a look at, because during the second reading I raised a couple of concerns I had about the way in which those clauses would be interpreted. I wonder whether the Minister would be kind enough, as he has indicated to me that he would be, to run through for me a couple of examples on how those particular sections would deal with those examples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe can see that every person commits an offence who fails to comply with any commands given to him or her directly by a pilot in command, or indirectly by a pilot in command through a crew member. Are we now saying that a new rule of agency exists between a crew member purporting to carry out the instructions of a pilot in command, or are we to believe that that particular individual\u2014that is, the crew member\u2014is to identify to the passenger at the point that the instruction is given that he or she is acting on behalf of, or indirectly by a pilot in command? In other words, how is a passenger to know, when he or she is told by a crew member to follow a certain command, that that crew member is indeed acting with the authority of the pilot in command in giving that instruction? That is the first question I would like the Minister to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ESecondly, I am very interested in the issue of any person committing an offence on an aircraft who behaves in a threatening, offensive, insulting, or disorderly manner and uses threatening, offensive, or insulting words. I presume that the party who makes the initial decision as to whether that behaviour is threatening, offensive, insulting, or disorderly, or whether the words used by the individual are threatening or offensive, is the pilot in command, or, in a more complicated fashion, a crew member acting on behalf of the pilot in command. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EMy second question for the Minister is who makes the decision as to whether the behaviour is insulting, offensive, or disorderly, or whether the language is threatening, offensive, or insulting. Members can see where the difficulty lies. For example, a passenger is trying to go to the toilet on the plane, he or she is bumped by the cart, it hits his or her knee, and a word escapes from his or her mouth that otherwise would not in the normal course of events, and under this legislation one presumes that that crew member could then say that he or she was acting under the authority of the pilot in command, and would charge that individual for the use of threatening language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe need to be very clear about how those offences come about, and clear about the means of carrying out the identification and prosecution of the offence. My colleague Wayne Mapp, associate professor of international law, is whispering in my ear that that will have to be tested in court. We would like to hear from the Minister how that process would work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe other thing I raised during the second reading that I am worried about is the event where a person may, for example, be intoxicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022513e9537fd254b858383d75273b061d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022513e9537fd254b858383d75273b061d8\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E First, I congratulate the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on the excellent work it has done on this bill. I also congratulate my colleague Peter Brown on the hard work he put into the bill while on the select committee. My congratulations also go to the Minister, who has taken the opportunity to explain a number of parts of this bill that were causing some concern. I suggest that more Ministers could do that during the course of the passage of bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on the issue of unruly passengers. I note that the bill, in the tradition of all other aviation bills, continues to keep the pilot in command of the aircraft. The pilot is in complete control and command, with the assistance of his or her crew, and that is very sound. I was absolutely staggered by ACT MP Deborah Coddington\u2019s suggestion that members of the public should be able to retain the means of self-defence, and even weapons of self-defence. She pointed out that perhaps it would be all right to take on board a pair of tweezers. She then blew her argument away, by saying that a passenger had used sharpened chopsticks to try to take over an aircraft and had inflicted some very serious injuries on a member of the crew. The suggestion by that member that passengers should be able to retain the means of self-defence and the ability to gather together was staggering. Where would that stop? Would it mean passengers would be allowed to take a revolver on board as a means of self-defence? I am staggered at that suggestion. But to get back to the crew and the pilot in command being in total control of the aircraft, I say the most important part of the bill is that it has not changed that status. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI now move on to the liability of an airline in the case of a delay. We know that there are times at Wellington Airport, in particular, when it is impossible to get an aircraft off the ground, or even to bring an aircraft into Wellington\u2014not so much because of the wind, but often because, without the wind, fog or a cloud may roll in and visibility problems make it impossible to get an aircraft in or out. In that case, the airline should never be responsible for the delay. But we do have airlines that overbook aircraft. It is a tradition in the airline industry to overbook aircraft to the point where airlines judge that they will have a certain number of no-shows and people who are unable to travel, which will therefore bring passenger numbers back to very close to the capacity level. Those judgments are sometimes thrown out by the fact that everybody shows up. There is a problem then, and the airlines have to bump people off the flight. In those cases, the airlines most definitely should be held responsible for the delay in a passenger\u2019s travel, and they need to compensate the passenger in some way. Many airlines compensate affected passengers by either giving them meal vouchers or putting them up in a hotel overnight, until they can catch the next flight out. That is sound practice, and this bill makes an airline liable for those delays when it has been a deliberate case of the airline either cancelling a flight or bumping passengers off it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe cancelling of the flight is another means whereby the airlines, if there is a very light passenger loading, will for technical reasons\u2014usually a complaint of a mechanical fault\u2014cancel a flight. I know of airlines that do that on a regular basis. I am not suggesting that our national carrier does it, but I am saying that other carriers that travel in and out of New Zealand definitely do it. They cancel a flight because they do not have enough passengers, and they put them on to another flight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022144e21ab9b794c16b9f827c8039485d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022144e21ab9b794c16b9f827c8039485d8\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a very quick call to sort out one or two things that are obviously puzzling people. First, I say to Ms Coddington that I am amazed at her suggestion, and that is all I will say about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003ERegarding section 65J in the bill\u2014in new Part 5A, inserted by clause 24\u2014 in terms of crew members having the say over whether a person is unruly and whom the order comes from, it has rightly been identified that the pilot in command of the aircraft is exactly that: the person in command. He or she will have to be satisfied that there is indeed an offence. So the person in charge, the pilot, will make the decision as to whether the passenger\u2019s behaviour or language is insulting, etc. Normally a crew member\u2014usually a member of the cabin crew\u2014would report to the pilot that the crew was having trouble with a passenger in, say, seat 65J or whatever it was, say what was happening, and ask what should be done. Major aircraft these days do contain means of restraining passengers, usually by the use of the plastic cable tie type of arrangement. The crew can strap people into their seats by strapping their arms to the armrests. Those sorts of restraining devices are quite common, because obviously some people react very badly when they are under the effects of alcohol, or whatever. So the pilot in command can request that that action is taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe pilot in command has to be satisfied that there actually is an offence. In the event that the offence is serious enough the pilot in command would notify the Aviation Security Service or the police of the offence, before the aircraft comes into land. The aircraft concerned does not have to be a New Zealand aircraft; it can be any international aircraft or domestic aircraft that is landing at a New Zealand airport. The pilot in command of the aircraft, wherever it has come from and whatever its nationality, can request New Zealand\u2019s Aviation Security Service or the police to meet the aircraft, and the aircraft is regarded as still in flight even after it has landed and the door is opened, until the pilot of the aircraft\u2014the captain in charge\u2014has determined that the incident is over and that the Aviation Security Service or the police has taken whatever action is required. I hope that clarifies the situation for members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00225d2a7bee43f34bf98326502c3969770b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d2a7bee43f34bf98326502c3969770b\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is a very difficult legal area to determine where the jurisdiction of New Zealand ends and the authority of the pilot begins, particularly in dealing with unruly passengers. I think we can illustrate that with the recent case of the Sri Lankan girl who was deported. She clearly arrived at the airport in a very distressed state, from all reports\u2014television reports, and others\u2014and she was allowed on to the plane. Who was responsible for the offence of allowing that person, who could, according to a certain definition, be described as unruly\u2014in that she was definitely making a lot of noise\u2014to get on to that plane? Under this provision here in this bill, under the infringement procedure the pilot of the aircraft is supposed to inform the police about an unruly passenger. Well, in this case the police were accompanying the unruly passenger, and let that passenger on to the plane in an unruly state. The passenger\u2019s state was such that, I understand, she was sedated. Under New Zealand law, one cannot sedate someone against his or her will, so who committed an offence there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f6abbbd661d482f9b123d9a2cb9ad54\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Was she sedated before she got on the plane, or on the plane?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228454c6bfff6e41c8b3a5684bf37c0137\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: I understand it happened on the plane, but that is something that perhaps could be investigated. Possibly the investigation that is under way could be expanded to cover that particular point. That case raises a problem, and I think it shows that we have to have some consistency. If we had slightly more humanitarian immigration and asylum-seeker policies, we may not end up with that sort of situation of pushing people on planes when they are in an unruly state, of coming up against the contradictions in this legislation, and of putting undue pressure on pilots to make those sorts of decisions about how to protect the interests of other passengers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI want to get on to another question. I do not quite agree with Deborah Coddington. In fact, I do not agree at all that we should take on to planes items of self-defence and form posses, etc. But I do spring to the defence of knitters. I have had a lot of complaints from knitters who go on planes. Some people are compulsive knitters. The situation is bad enough for smokers with the provision\u2014and I support this provision\u2014stopping passengers from smoking, but I do not think we need to go further down the track against knitters. There are particularly compulsive knitters who do not have anyone to talk to, who are on their own in a seat, and who do not have a book to read. Those people want to knit, and their knitting needles are stolen\u2014and that is the only word I can use\u2014as they get on to the plane. I think that we are really extending things if we think that the terrorist threat in the world today comes from a lot of people who look very harmless. Some of them are quite aged; some of them are in their 70s and 80s. But that does not matter\u2014they get their knitting needles stolen from them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere has been a moderation in the seizure of items from people getting on to planes. When the measures first came in after September 11, I lost a couple of pairs of nail scissors. The law was then moderated a little, and people had to have nail scissors over a certain length. My nail scissors get past the screening procedures now, so that is a progressive step. I also understand, with regard to knitting needles, that there has been a certain relaxation for people with plastic, rather than steel, knitting needles. Sometimes people can creep by with plastic knitting needles. I do not know whether there is a minimum or a maximum length, but I did hear\u2014and perhaps I should not report this\u2014that a friend of mine with steel knitting needles was let through the other day. So perhaps informally the situation is loosening up. I hear supportive comments from different parties in this House. If we got together and had a push on the question of knitting needles, we may get an exception for them. We could even put forward an amendment to this legislation. I do not have the drafting skills to immediately construct an amendment, but I would support such a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022965199ca47dc4b20b4bee122dd37d1e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022965199ca47dc4b20b4bee122dd37d1e8\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E It would be worth reminding the previous speaker that a knitting needle\u2014a steel one, certainly\u2014is actually capable of being used effectively as a stiletto, and if we make an exception for little knitting needles, what else would we be making an exception for? Why would we not make an exception for nail-clipping scissors, for instance? It is really one of those situations where, given the potential risk\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd8b4844f9f14757bf4b4a83b11aed7b\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: What about sharpened glasses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c504560f08e5420eba7c177c81daee1e\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: The member has seen the film. It is simply not appropriate to make those kinds of exceptions when it comes to aviation safety. In the past, box cutters would have been seen as being something relatively harmless. We all know the consequences of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to talk specifically about the mutual recognition provisions, because these are clearly the most important part of the legislation and they are intended to create a single aviation market. By that I mean operators in Australia, notably Qantas and Virgin Blue Airlines, will be able to operate in New Zealand and Air New Zealand will be able to operate in Australia. Earlier, the Minister observed in a conversation that if this provision had existed back in 1998, one would imagine that Air New Zealand would not have purchased Ansett Australia. That purchase led to the various problems that resulted in the Government bail-out. So, clearly, this is major legislation that builds the unity of the two markets. Obviously, National will support that part, but my concern is this: do the mutual recognition provisions then lead to the lowering of competitive barriers to mergers? Clearly, it is the preference of the Government to allow a merger\u2014in fact, it desires a merger\u2014between Qantas and Air New Zealand, because the Minister, Dr Cullen, was adamantly opposed to the rescue package proposed by Singapore Airlines. The Government put every blockage in place to that, and that ultimately cost the taxpayer a billion dollars. The clear intention was not so much the rescue of Air New Zealand by the taxpayer as to merge Qantas and Air New Zealand, and I guess the Government intends to reduce its ownership through that mechanism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt has never been satisfactorily explained to the House exactly why the Government places so much importance on the Qantas - Air New Zealand merger, as opposed to, for instance, the intervention by, or involvement in, Singapore Airlines. I have often wondered whether the intent is to take the view that Australia and New Zealand\u2019s aviation companies essentially have to be merged to be a global player, and the involvement in Singapore Airlines would have cut right across that. The Government seems to be willing to use New Zealand taxpayers\u2019 money to achieve that outcome. With the mutual recognition agreements reached in November 2000, one wonders whether they are part and parcel of that overall process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI have a specific question for the Minister\u2014and I know he might take the view that this legislation is not directly material to this; nevertheless, it is an important question. Will the Government make an undertaking that there will be no legislation to override the decision of the New Zealand Commerce Commission, which, at least currently, prevents the merger of the two airlines? It is a very specific question and I believe the public deserves an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f969f500fba44298776ec441792d081\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Can I help the member? My delegation is on the safety side. Perhaps he would like to put a question down for Dr Cullen on that issue. He is the shareholding Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885938c3dd4f44b39ed5b18bab02d2a1\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: I am grateful to the Minister for that answer, but it does give rise to the implication that that is exactly what is intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca4a9bc39cfb40bd990b648d1e4f5d68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca4a9bc39cfb40bd990b648d1e4f5d68\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a13dfb2e416b453fb8d4a828814f7cea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a13dfb2e416b453fb8d4a828814f7cea\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to suggest that Keith Locke move an amendment to clause 15A, because I think that he is absolutely right\u2014people who take knitting needles on to planes should be exempt. It would be very easy to draft an amendment, and I suggest that he does, so that we have an amendment in the bill that respects the right of knitters. Also, I say to the Minister that it does not appear to me that there is a treaty clause in the bill. There is nothing in the bill that states that it must not act in a way that is inconsistent with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. I would like Mr Mallard to come down and explain why that is, because I think it is an absolute disgrace that this bill does not respect the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. I turn now to New Zealand First, which is obviously setting itself up to be the new coalition partner for Labour\u2014if it thinks that Labour will be re-elected. That is a dance of the desperate, if there ever was one. But I return to the issue of self-defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226ff65dddd7841f282ed9d83e5bbee1c\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Let me answer you on the Treaty of Waitangi. The Australians don\u2019t have the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b13a2d820e14dec8d722fabee10926a\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister. That is very wise, too. They have Mabo. When I went to Cambridge, there was an incident on the plane\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ff93022e784f17b1864b48f1403669\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Who paid for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f70e8d74684f78baac291e356ff4ac\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Qantas paid for it\u2014and everyone was told to return to their seats and do their seatbelts up. It appeared that somebody had run amok\u2014one of the passengers was threatening to kill everybody on board. The Qantas aircrew managed to restrain him and handcuff him to the seat, 2 hours out of Heathrow. If I had had a gun, I would have quite happily put a bullet between his eyes in order to save 490 people in that jumbo jet. What is more important? The lives of 490 people, or some nutter who cannot handle his alcohol on a plane and threatens to kill everybody else? To me, there is no question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ed1ef128b548e59ecc1d1c6e800720\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: What about tweezers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dabe34de46e4b789c6c4486db91baf6\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member questions not being able to take tweezers on to the plane. As Keith Locke pointed out, it is probably quite sensible that one cannot take tweezers on to a plane, because, as Keith Locke says, one could pluck people to death. The same is true of nail files\u2014one could file them to death. Those thick-skinned New Zealand First people would be fine, because one would be filing away for ever, and it would take too long to kill them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI turn now to the provisions in the bill that deal with airlines delaying passengers and having to be responsible for that. We did argue about that at the select committee, and it was pointed out to us that airlines do take their responsibilities very seriously, voluntarily, and if they muck passengers around they do, in general, help them out, put them up, and that sort of thing. What about the other way round, which the bill does not deal with? What about people who delay an aircraft? I have seen members of Parliament sitting in the Koru lounge eating and holding up a flight. There are no prizes for guessing who that was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b010c75cd80948299bf7df6fd20c2f2c\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: They should be left behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2c1ce9e0da4ae9aeef61b7296d4334\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! They should be left behind, because they disadvantage the whole airline. The whole schedule gets behind. There is no compensation for the airline in terms of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a68e4d992fe4c5e9a61a1344f576cc8\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Shoot them all!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad366a1fbda4343aba476254242859e\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand First members are agreeing with me. \u201CShoot them all,\u201D they are saying. But I think that part of the bill went a bit too far. Perhaps the Minister in the chair, Harry Duynhoven, might like to take a call and explain. He is gesticulating at me and trying to talk to me in sign language with a bandaged hand, and it is very difficult to read sign language from someone with a bandaged hand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe9565017a2c4027961a74c30d802352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe9565017a2c4027961a74c30d802352\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002233d46acc0993482db8d28d5bb060b888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233d46acc0993482db8d28d5bb060b888\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I start by thanking Deborah Coddington for the warning. She spoke briefly about New Zealand First going into coalition with Labour, and then immediately spoke about courses on self-defence. I say to the honourable member that I have taken it on board\u2014we will not get any closer than we are right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere is one unique clause in this bill\u2014probably several clauses\u2014and it is a bit unusual. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee has increased the fines for the carriage of dangerous goods, and I think that some comment must be made on that, because usually select committees are prone to reducing fines. Fundamentally, there are two types of passengers who carry dangerous goods. One is the person who innocently takes on cans of paint, or swimming-pool chlorine, or something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f070e0c83a804afc998a2cddcbe60c81\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: Or a swimming pool!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e479c470169e49d498b01af5e4d57c42\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, chlorine can be used for a number of purposes, and I say to the honourable member that the select committee was shown a series of videos about some very innocuous substances that, when blended together, give quite horrific results. So there is the type of passenger who innocently takes on some dangerous substance, not knowing that it is a dangerous substance. Then there is the second type of passenger\u2014who I think the select committee termed \u201Cthe travelling salesman\u201D\u2014who specialises in carting dangerous goods from one part of the country to another, and deliberately flouts the law. This bill hugely increases the fines for both types of passenger, and I think that that is worth recording. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOne submitter in particular made the select committee sit up and take notice. I think he was from Qantas, and I think he had flown from Singapore that day to talk to the select committee for half an hour. He explained some real concerns about dangerous and unruly passengers. He told us quite informatively, in quite some detail, about Qantas\u2019 move\u2014I hope he was from Qantas; I am either giving it a lot of credit or I should be referring to another airline, but let us say he was from Qantas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d549a6ecb91e44e0bebdec9f8efa9bb7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Just say \u201Can airline\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce29b8283b14bacaae0e94a11e949df\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: He was from an airline. He flew from Singapore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256cabac35e6c43ee9e6f2f9ba32ce0c4\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: A big one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291c4a7d40b44f509b69959847451000\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It was a big one. He spoke about the training of air marshals. I know that the Minister takes safety very seriously, but that submitter encouraged the select committee\u2014and I regret not having it put in the commentary on the bill\u2014to recommend that New Zealand get involved in the training of air marshals. That would give us the long-term choice about whether to go down that track. He recommended\u2014quite strongly, as I recall\u2014that New Zealand have about 100 air marshals at its disposal. They could come from the army, I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b912df918b46b5a5d0b5f0d6db296a\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: The army.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9c0deebf886445e83a7b6ac3d523baa\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes\u2014or the police. It is worth considering, and I regret that I did not endeavour to have that recommendation included in the report. One tends to think that those guys are just policemen or soldiers carrying guns discreetly, but there is quite a lot to it. I will not go into the details, but I was very impressed with the sincerity and the detail that that airline spokesperson gave us at the select committee. When one comes across an unruly passenger it is quite disconcerting. I have said this several times in the debate on this bill. I sympathise, though, with Keith Locke, who cannot take his knitting needles on to a plane, and knit away\u2014probably making a hat for Nandor Tanczos or something like that. I have to say to Keith Locke that he just has to leave them at the terminal. He should give them to the security guards and buy another pair when he gets to Wellington, or vice versa. Or he could have a pair in his desk here, because sometimes the Speaker allows us to knit in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b53f012135a4b62911426bab750945c\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9148ab7c16f484897e9a1e15c5bc052\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Disgraceful?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42e7e96570d4563b15216e3699c8e5e\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: You lose all the stitches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4263ec63f9a4ac5ab1bb1aa3bcb798d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I could not understand what the Minister said but I am sure that Hansard will record it and I will read it with interest afterwards. This is a good bill, and New Zealand First will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040225855abc65921744fc8d203ce7bb0d31d6000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"