"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a3f4ee32bff43a385bc92d075ee5381\u0022\u003EWednesday, 3 March 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3374f65f2654a1d8fda2dd7a6400cfc\u0022\u003EWednesday, 3 March 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f569c2dd90954bca9e450f143f0c27e8\u0022\u003ECommittees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1c4b34d104845928b89767f566e7b7e\u0022\u003EBusiness of Select Committees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259e1cc804a84483db5c236d1bd2d36d6\u0022\u003EMeetings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022da1ac55e237944d9906c95b72d83b31f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da1ac55e237944d9906c95b72d83b31f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Law and Order Committee to meet in Australia from 7 to 13 March, and to adopt such procedures and practices as are considered suitable for the conduct of its business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b9417cfc3a8497787d97771bbc7781d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There appears to be not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229970aa00deb448c2b17316132481dd3d\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002235d80a53cdbf40c8854ff617a1ee56e3\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u2014Ministers\u0027 Answers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022c232c81d548b446e8948d8bd5c403f1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c232c81d548b446e8948d8bd5c403f1d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I start on questions I want to refer to two matters that I said I would rule on this week. Last week the Hon Peter Dunne asked me to reflect on points of order inviting the Speaker to rule on whether Ministers have answered questions. I have given a number of rulings on that subject during my term in office, including detailed rulings on 12 September 2001 and 1 May 2003. Summaries of those rulings are contained in the latest edition of Speakers\u2019 Rulings. I do not intend to go over them in detail today. I merely wish to emphasise that the Speaker is not the judge of whether a Minister answers a question correctly or adequately. That is a matter for political debate and criticism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EI reiterate what I said on 12 September 2001 in Hansard, Vol. 595, at page 11634: \u201CAny answer given by a Minister must address the question asked. That means that the answer must be a direct response to the question; it cannot be on an unrelated matter that it suits the Minister to introduce. But it does not mean that the answer will be satisfactory to the questioner, or that it will actually answer the question. Whether it does or not will always be a matter of opinion, and the Speaker cannot force a Minister to give a reply that is satisfactory to everyone.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aefb0f6829544c9f9336ce8e5dc9295c\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Language\u2014Interpretation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022723d77f2948d437b871b43abf216e113\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022723d77f2948d437b871b43abf216e113\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: During question No. 11 on 26 February, which was last Thursday, a number of points arose out of the interpretation of a reply by the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, and I undertook to respond to them. The Hon Roger Sowry raised the question of whether a member whose speech has been incorrectly interpreted is under an obligation to correct that interpretation. If the member gives his or her own interpretation, then the answer is yes. In the same way that any member who gives wrong information to the House is under an obligation to clear the matter up as soon as the error is appreciated\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 163/6\u2014a member who gives an incorrect interpretation must do so, too, but where the interpretation is given by an interpreter I cannot hold that any such onus falls on the member. As Speaker\u2019s ruling 34/3 makes plain, members do not own the interpretations of their speeches and are not responsible for them. I would hope, however, that members would, on a point of order, clear up any misunderstanding arising out of an interpretation of a speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EA further point was raised as to whether, when the Minister\u2019s speech was translated for inclusion in Hansard, I would come back to the House if it revealed any unparliamentary language. There was unparliamentary language used\u2014the Minister addressed another member in the second person\u2014but the Minister cleared this up himself by a personal explanation later in the day. That matter is now closed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EI wish to add some general remarks about interpretation. As Speakers\u2019 rulings 34/4 and 34/5 make clear, an interpretation, especially one given off the cuff, is always liable to be rough and ready. Members must make allowance for that. We must appreciate, too, that the process of interpretation is not merely a matter of transliterating word for word from one language into another. Especially with languages as different in their origins as English and M\u0101ori, this is not possible. I am satisfied that the interpretation given last week did convey the broad sense of what the Minister said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EThe one deficiency was a peculiarly parliamentary point\u2014the personal pronoun the Minister used was not conveyed. In most settings whether someone is speaking in the second person or the third person is unimportant; in this Chamber it can be critical. The Clerk has spoken to the interpreters about the particular parliamentary context in which an interpretation is given, and attention will be paid to that in the future. If members would like a copy of either ruling the Clerk will provide it to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9272f66fe3e4c7da82c531c2a8205a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9272f66fe3e4c7da82c531c2a8205a6\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There was also the matter raised yesterday by the Hon Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221142ff73a5a64c1a8c7f6efd87430bd0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am still coming back on that one. I had quite a bit to do on those two today. I will come back on that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00224c8e834bd8c44d67bec0c842a44d9ce6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c8e834bd8c44d67bec0c842a44d9ce6\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It relates to the ruling you have just given to the House, but also to Speaker\u2019s ruling 34/5, which I note is also a ruling of yours, made in 2002. The difficulty as I see it is this: where a member responds in M\u0101ori, as a member certainly might, particularly a Minister replying to a question, and the member breaches the Standing Orders in so doing\u2014and the rest of the House is not aware of that, and the interpreter does not make it clear in his interpretation that the Standing Orders have been breached\u2014then, as the ruling stands now, we have an obligation to take a point of order immediately. But it might be some time before we learn of the breach of the Standing Orders that was not contained in the interpreter\u2019s translation. What remedy and recourse do we have to raise that point of order at a later time when, under normal rulings, it would be regarded as out of time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f0e0b7135164517b6113058a17db8eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, in relation to that last sentence, of course a member would be able to do so at a later time, because that is an exceptional circumstance. I referred to Speaker\u2019s ruling 34/5 in my ruling; the other matter is addressed in that ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a653c079f5b6454a8c5a6248712cbe76\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u2014Minister\u2019s Answers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002242039db1c44e4186a0304c3ab21c41dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242039db1c44e4186a0304c3ab21c41dc\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a quick issue that arises from your ruling on the point of order I raised with you. I want to seek some clarification. I am grateful for your ruling, but if I look at Speaker\u2019s ruling 145/7, in your name, I see that it states: \u201CAny answer must address the question asked. The answer must be a direct response;\u201D etc., and then I contrast that with Speaker\u2019s ruling 144/3: \u201CIt is not obligatory on a Minister to answer a question.\u201D, and Speaker\u2019s ruling 144/4: \u201CThe Speaker cannot force a Minister to give an answer to a question \u2026\u201D. I want to be clear in my mind that you are saying that in addressing a question a Minister has to give a response\u2014but you, as Speaker, have no responsibility for the quality of that response\u2014and the response somehow has to address the question itself, despite the fact that those other rulings say there is no obligation on a Minister to actually answer the question. I think that that is at the heart of a lot of the current disputes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225491e7c54f3947e4bea97a429d7ac77f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member, because it is a useful point of order. Those two instances, I am advised, were when the Minister said: \u201CNo, I will not answer.\u201D It was just: \u201CNo, I will not answer.\u201D, and that was way back in 1968 and 1972, I think. The ruling I gave refers to the fact that a Minister must address the question. The answer might not be satisfactory to the person who asked the question, but that answer has to be given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002289c49510f2894909b00885da3592cf40\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002229cad3f130cf4349813f6b130f83d792\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2 to Minister, 2 March\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad28023a74094516a8c540498952df35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad28023a74094516a8c540498952df35\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E As many members are aware, yesterday in this House I was accused by the Hon Bill English of suppressing documents. I now seek to table a letter from his office to me, my reply to his office, and the documents he alleged I suppressed\u2014which are not at all related to the request he made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220c880a7b4be47a49fd664c923be303f\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6c4d03858b6431f9b596fe6af8e9cb8\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022255b857ca9ba4c0e9c8f61f63c87559c\u0022\u003ETreaty Claims\u2014Settlement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201770cdd1f5a4866a646f66d3a0b4055\u0022\u003E1. Hon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: Does he agree with the Minister for Social Development and Employment, the Hon Steve Maharey, that: \u201CIt is perhaps time to set a date when all grievances must be settled so we can all move on,\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1f87df76f164d299589b4f31138dba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1f87df76f164d299589b4f31138dba9\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The settlement process needs to be sped up, but I have not considered a deadline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab3b7959b113495fb6c3c3a379a820e1\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister advise Parliament whether this answer means that he has done a U-turn on treaty policies and the policy is now different, in which case, in what way; and, if he has made no U-turn on the settlement of treaty grievances, can we conclude that it is business as usual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a279d32b234f86b67facf5f9d4935d\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I have been consistent. As I said in a media statement on 3 April 2003: \u201CIt is in everyone\u2019s interests that a process for resolving claims happens as quickly as possible,\u201D. There is no U-turn from this Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c6570f241b4e3c9a67fd5f01f1d208\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that the treaty will still be relevant in 20 years\u2019 time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247ce64b1686f4648b4ed7f1153511c9f\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Even when all historical claims are settled, the Crown continues to have an ongoing obligation to M\u0101ori under the treaty. This is an obligation that this Government takes seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dba6338b8104d348a44f55136b651a1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister see the One News item last night, in which the Prime Minister said on this matter: \u201CI neither support nor don\u2019t support it.\u201D, and then did he see\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a34e6a6cd83f41d3b640b721014bb4c4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the one warning about interjecting while questions are being asked, and that is the only warning today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253450a3bc51e4415b917964d13ee3e58\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister see last night\u2019s One News, in which the Prime Minister was quoted on this matter as saying: \u201CI neither support nor don\u2019t support it.\u201D; then did he read this morning her changed position, when she said: \u201CI didn\u2019t get where I am today without being concerned about public opinion.\u201D, and does he think that that may, in fact, indicate that this Minister soon will be doing a U-turn?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e11b0f4838b45e5a18a7f29faaba83e\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: No, I did not see the news, because I was very busy, as a M\u0101ori Minister, doing other things, nor did I read the newspaper this morning, because I was, again, busy doing other things. I tell that member that there is no U-turn from this Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, but I am interested in what the spokesperson for M\u0101ori Affairs in that party is on about. Tell me about your policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b885d53ec743978cc93dcb76c6e677\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last sentence is out of order. It is not in order to ask a member to tell another member about his policy. That can come in the course of debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227367f6ed7494465a8907d6c3f8237e7b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand the Minister\u2019s intention. Notwithstanding the comment you just made, I therefore seek leave to indicate to the House the National Party\u2019s exact policy direction in that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7d2651035b4cd79e707eae2f515676\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to do that. Is there any objection? There is. [Interruption] That is for me to say, but I agree with the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022860a6b506d36476f99f41dda39d721af\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, the Minister erred, not because he asked Mr Brownlee a question but because he asked you about your M\u0101ori Affairs policy. I know you have one, but that party does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c023b3493db94892931d7ac65a9e55bf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am flattered to think that, after 36 years, I have had the odd comment to make about the odd thing, but I think the member was technically correct. We will now move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022005d23eec85c4c8babe2bb4327b3b849\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the treaty settlement process is about providing just resolution to our nation\u2019s historical conflicts, so should not be subject to a unilaterally imposed time limit, whether it be the totally unreasonable 2008 deadline of the ACT party, or the more generous but still unachievable 10 years opined by the Hon Steve Maharey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee95c59e548440b9abfed5b382a9b733\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: This Government will not compromise the integrity of the process, as we want settlements to be fair and durable and to be understood by the two partners in this country, brought together by the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab2d0f0f6bb2406f804332b1adb7c25e\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Would it not be preferable for all New Zealanders that the time frame spoken about be applied to the lodging of claims, rather than that mentioned by the Minister\u2019s colleague the Minister for Social Development and Employment, the Hon Steve Maharey, as that would allow for fair and enduring settlements to be negotiated unconstrained by time; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d7376be22f54430a865fbb04fb0475b\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I say to my learned friend from Ng\u0101puhi that, most certainly, it is something we need to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a4d22ecc99d4220bbef758943a6d73c\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s comments yesterday, will he be taking specific proposals to Cabinet at some point in the future to give effect to his support for a specific limit being introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a154483f350b4982a1b7f8d43bc71435\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: That is for the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations to forward. We continually have good discussions in Cabinet about the treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ac84a73640a4c1abe50074697f67446\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s comment that neither he nor his Cabinet have engaged in a U-turn, and that they are conducting business as usual, how does he reconcile the statement made by his colleague the Attorney-General, who a week and a half ago said that a time limit was impossible, with the statements made by Minister Steve Maharey, who said that we must have a time limit? How can he reconcile those two positions and call them \u201Cbusiness as usual\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e31b0c00fc4a40aa5fe73f41911dd5\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: As with leadership U-turns, Ministers can have separate opinions. That is what makes this Government strong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224d79d6488224a918b246bcc85754d7d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports on the viability of such suggestions made previously, as best evidenced by these comments: \u201CNational completely rejects the separatist policies pursued by Labour. Our goal must be, over time, to eliminate all legislation based on race.\u201D\u2014a quotation from a speech made at Orewa by Jim Bolger on 23 January 1990?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a76dba3e3e6a49148391787db19b645c\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022805821e76e4f4fcdab0906641c7b880b\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with comments made yesterday by Shane Jones and other M\u0101ori leaders that it is not just M\u0101ori but also the Crown that drags the chain on the settlement of historical wrongs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fddca7354b484dc39d8bb6378f6c4d75\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. From time to time, that is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022214a5b10b8b540bfade54660fc2b58dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister again what reports has he had on the viability of such commitments and promises, as best evidenced, in historic terms, by these comments: \u201CFrom this point on, my Government will maintain a non-racist stance by pursuing policies that deal with disadvantage solely on the basis of need, not race.\u201D, in an \u201CI have a dream\u201D speech by Jim Bolger on 23 January 1990\u2014for the New Zealand Herald\u2019s sake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022996bc43701604f369d70c05e48cd5e1a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What were the member\u2019s first words?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f34f1c4b731f4d2bb530cbea04ed39bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CHas he had any reports on the viability\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299bcf93aeca440309549390c9e339eef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members can ask that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8e5d297797943edbb83fa2b6e3732b1\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: The notion, nuances, and development of the fiscal envelope by that party are well known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c6cb611082247f1a24741f90f79637c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Is the House to take from the Minister\u2019s answers today that the Government\u2019s policy is to speed up the treaty settlement process, but to do so without an end date in mind, and so, therefore, to speed up the process and keep it going for ever and a day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e30ed0a552b42fd918849f250926d47\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: The member may wish that, but no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d803667b174b0ebb173263d931736b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the \u201CI have a dream\u201D speech made on 23 January 1990 at, of all places, Orewa, where all these things seemed to be so new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef288034d89c4a7fb0a1e1e99ec4ce25\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Is the House to conclude from the Minister\u2019s remarks that he has been working as hard as he can to make settlements as fast as he can, that he will continue to be busy, busy, and that settlements will be made no faster in the future than they were in the past?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fb6307a23e64ed1b00de4dd92cff04e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have now gone a fair way from the original question. We now have the Minister being asked a question for which he is not responsible. The Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations is responsible for treaty settlements, not the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cd3c035bd6c43babe4c326b7fcc2ded\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Of course the House knows that is not so. The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs has a significant role in the settlement process. His officials give advice and he gives advice\u2014in fact he has just told us that he might be one of the Ministers who has been dragging the chain. If he can say that about himself, why can I not ask questions about his performance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239effcd152f44a4295f2fbee3ec86205\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will settle it this way. The Minister can answer in so far as his responsibilities allow him to do so on this particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ca4e0cc638d4f7fa18f66ab3435db8a\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: As usual, the Government is making its best endeavours, and we act in the collective here. There is no U-turn about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bf1fd708ad14185a54bc639c0335e6d\u0022\u003ECrimes Act\u2014Gangs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210753bf991f2448199464ee6ee900f7c\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is he confident that section 98A of the Crimes Act 1961 concerning participation in a criminal gang is being utilised effectively to combat the spread of gangs and their related criminal activities; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00222c9ed2905a724517a3e14c215a2967f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c9ed2905a724517a3e14c215a2967f5\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Acting Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Since the Government made changes to section 98A in 2002, the number of prosecutions brought by the police has increased dramatically. Last year 76 prosecutions under section 98A were brought, compared with a total of 16 for the 5 years previously. So far 10 of those charges have resulted in convictions for that offence. Some of the remaining cases presumably are yet to be determined by the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3ae6fc3bc640acaa3363f05e4c9872\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022504967a73b214e12aee90de349b2e109\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member should start his question with a question word. That is not a question word. We had that issue raised, quite properly, by Mr Brownlee last week. I have ruled that supplementary questions have to begin with a question word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae7d27c50d48440fbe76af20bd90e239\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that in the last 4 years, only a pathetic 12 people have actually been convicted of participation in a criminal gang, when the Government\u2019s own figures suggest there are at least 10,000 gang members out there, and what possible confidence can the public have that the Government is doing anything to halt the rise of gangs and the gang-controlled drug industry, in particular the P epidemic, when the average period of imprisonment for those 12 people was a paltry 16\u00BD months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd3ee19b759d477d813c79110e2f02e5\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The statistics relating to convictions are a matter for the courts. In the process, I understand that although charges are frequently brought under section 98A, they are normally brought in conjunction with other charges. That is why there are fewer convictions. Presumably during the period, charges are sometimes withdrawn or not proceeded with, when convictions are already received for other offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3574e6d5209426dab58f945535f8eb9\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: What was the nature of the changes made by the Government in 2002 to section 98A of the Crimes Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e1d657c7d4941adab9aba898d3e6753\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The changes made to section 98A simplified the legal test for what constituted an organised criminal group. It broadened the scope of who could be considered to be a member of that group, and it increased the maximum penalty for participation in a criminal gang from 3 to 5 years\u2019 imprisonment. Police noted that the changes made by the Government to that section made the law \u201Cmore relevant to the gang situation within New Zealand\u201D and anticipated an increase in the use of this charge, as the statistics show.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc68cc1ccf24253a4f61dde35d7525b\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Government not get serious about organised crime and breaking up the criminal gangs, rather than saying\u2014as it has been since 31 July 2003\u2014that it is still reviewing the Proceeds of Crime Act; when does dithering stop, and action begin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284a9bbcea1554d20890138f63c34287b\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has been considering this matter, and it hopes a bill will be introduced by the middle of the year. This Government has a policy of consultation and not imposing its will on others without consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8bd720c803146058f3602e01da99564\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that in November 1997, the New Zealand First - National coalition Government passed the Harassment and Criminal Associations Bill, which significantly increased the powers of the police and the courts so that society could better deal with gangs and organised crime, and is it further not the case that the only reason section 98A of the Crimes Act has not been enforced is that, as indicated by the Minister\u2019s own figures, the police have no confidence in many of the trendy, liberal-minded judges who are more concerned about civil liberties than they are about the safety of the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220de40a09889140d68c3a7c8be500ea66\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Criticism of the judiciary is to be regarded very carefully, but the first part of the question is certainly in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fea64036fce4fb9898da7c57762c419\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: I understand there are a variety of reasons as to why in fact prosecutions do not lead to conviction, and that frequently depends upon the nature of the trial and the types of offences that are brought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4939e9e235e498db5440a9409eead65\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that 5 years is a sufficient maximum penalty for gang members, when, in one particular case, a convicted offender received no sentence of imprisonment at all; if so, what is the point of legislation when it provides such completely ineffectual results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cba17ee7e2145cd9364e082f99275aa\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Under our system of criminal justice, it is for the courts to hear the facts in the particular case and to determine it according to those circumstances, not for Parliament to make a predetermination on the basis of facts unknown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289295242d2bf413ebbf34212af660b0f\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister considered any proposals to remedy the obvious failures of the current law dealing with gangs, such as a tougher property confiscation regime that removes the profit incentive from gang-related criminal activity, along the lines of the Western Australian model, as proposed by United Future; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e7f34773744869ae0096219c6508bf\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: We are aware of United Future\u2019s support for the Western Australian scheme, and that has been one of the proposals looked at. The bill will be introduced, we hope, by the middle of this year, or certainly shortly thereafter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022432ef49fdcba4b91a9d8567095ffe5e2\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Closures, Invercargill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221579a483113141b18ab434255c628271\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What will be the difference between the process followed by the ministry facilitator and the process to be followed by the mediator with respect to the proposed closure of 13 Invercargill schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022154d1517804241d2bd318a10086ea1e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022154d1517804241d2bd318a10086ea1e4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased that the member asked me this question. During the two previous education reviews, while he was in Government, whenever there was a meeting in Invercargill that member used to head for Auckland\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a86539b0a046079717e92c9c493657\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now the Minister will answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a196ae94bf548e0b3c2c4276cbce451\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: As the member is aware\u2014because he attended the meeting\u2014the facilitator consulted with the community and developed possible models for future schooling provision. The ministry then used this information to form recommendations to me, and I made decisions that became the proposals announced in January. The mediator will review those proposals, any alternative proposals lodged as part of the submissions, and community views, then make a recommendation. I do welcome the member\u2019s interest, at last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022933f611e667848628a1f6e9aa02b9ee1\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: If the facilitator has already consulted with the community, as the ministry\u2019s website says he will, has developed alternatives, has presented data and information, and passes that on, ultimately, to the Minister for decision, why should schools engage with a mediator for whom there are no terms of reference and who can follow only the same process of consultation and presentation of alternative models?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9125681be64f19beda062b4cd13254\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Because I think that they think, and communities around the country are thinking, that they will get better results. There are alternatives. Simon Power is aware, for example, that that member\u2019s policy could be applied to Taihape, and of the 10 schools there, one of which will be merged, there will be one fewer school according to my approach; according to Bill English\u2019s approach, there will be nine fewer schools. They will be down to one school in Taihape under his policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bf4f09874e0410392decfb6551f93ee\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to raise two points. The first is that, in response to the primary question, the member was out of order. He does that habitually, and I suggest that there needs to be some sanction on him from the Chair; otherwise, he will just keep doing it. The second point is that in respect of the matter the Minister raises, he is consistently misrepresenting material that he has read somewhere. He continues to do it each question time. I have the right, as a member of this Parliament, to have my word accepted; how he represents it is simply wrong, and he should not be allowed to continue to do so\u2014and, in any case, it is not his responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244cfc9958d044cdf881b5fd9faba432a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to say to the member that, as far as I am concerned, if a member states something, then his word is accepted, and I accept the member\u2019s word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6dacac998a74173977845e136827a8a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two documents. The first document outlines the Bill English position on education development initiatives, which has been published. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a310effaf8f1492d914ae5b78d2b54cd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is sought to be tabled. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231e82335850b489e82e5b193af0d1b19\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The second document is an application of that policy to the current education development initiative areas that shows that significantly more schools would close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022997768b6e2474f4aae2cf30e3ba13b0d\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What alternative approaches to reviews has he seen, and does he intend to adopt them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276e757109f134bdea1560821ff5fde0e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a number of approaches to reviews. The one that is loudest, the one that is most coherent, and the one that has some elements of logic behind it is that one of Bill English\u2019s, and I think it stinks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d94b1c9f28ba47cda467db6f748d37ad\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What do they think of yours? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241dccd2037724b3e9d5e8627ad2499a6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the riposte was a suitable response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba95aab059614782b5c827e8e2bd8336\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that, with the benefit of hindsight, he could have avoided the current school review shambles by adopting a whole-of-Government approach that took account of the economic and social costs of possible closures on the wider community, and will he guarantee that those costs will now be treated seriously in the reviews that he is still determined to proceed with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219bf4db5e8e141449a071b78a798fb5d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The very firm feedback I have had from a number of areas is that weak and failing schools are a major reason for population decline. I want to avoid that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8b06ffb28e44668530cebb84009c38\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of a Budget paper headed \u201CProposal: Network Reviews\u201D, dated 19 June 2003, which sets out in great detail his plans to review, over 5 years, 500 schools and close 200 of them; and does he now still stand by his statement that he had not kept his Cabinet colleagues apprised of his actions; and does he agree that the Prime Minister can say she never knew what was proposed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a2673ae8c14ab9a0c6d53f0eb0e89b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Our Prime Minister knows quite a lot. She does not know the detail of all the discussions between Dr Cullen and me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc80732fbf0c4ffaa2355dcbcdead0d7\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the true position is that he had informed his colleagues, that they did know\u2014including the Prime Minister\u2014that he planned to review 500 schools and close up to 200 of them, and that the Prime Minister and he have both made misleading public statements to cover up a very messy back-down where they have both been defeated by public opinion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203da245dda4947cfaa93477593809a6e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not accept that, because it is incorrect. I would remind the member that the number he suggested is less than the number that were closed in the 1990s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e7307b8e694ed49f5743926e060023\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document headed \u201CVote: Education\u201D and \u201CProposal: Network Reviews\u201D\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224aa31d73e4d473180569d42b28f43f9\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was going to raise this matter at the end of this question, but I am pleased that, in fact, we have had the situation where Mr English sought to table a paper. Earlier on during this particular question the Minister of Education, Mr Mallard, sought to table two papers. He was allowed, without interruption from you, to say all that he wanted to say, and then you asked whether there was any objection. In the case of Mr English, he was part-way through and you interrupted. It seems that often when we are looking to table papers we are interrupted, but the Minister or Ministers are not. I wonder whether we can have a situation where someone who seeks leave gives purely just the title of the document, or else the person can finish his or her request to table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b563ae690ffd4042b210a99e730e47ee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the document has been referred to by way of a supplementary question, and everyone is well aware of the document concerned, as I think I was and everyone else was, then I do not need to have its description entirely repeated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ce110c3932349478c4248aaf01b1a01\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are going to have to go a bit further than that. Before question time the Minister of Education got up and asked for leave to table some documents, and in the process of simply asking for leave, before any question had been asked, made a debating point about the content of those documents. You ignored it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022170d01b27cda411db0ac3e2d020ba239\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I made a mistake, and I apologise to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252faf38a1b694bb3932ee312ad54804a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Do we therefore have your assurance that, in the case of Mr Mallard, he will be treated in the same way as the rest of the House in respect of requesting leave to table documents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f504c0e7dd6b4ba6abd7909296a8aedc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e2f43b4dff6408e8bfe8fe9283ab11d\u0022\u003ERegulations\u2014Complaints\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae5de7742d634fccbadc6d0832731b92\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Has he received any reports recording complaints about the level of regulation in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaa2997cb40b4562a81ee606ec149660\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaa2997cb40b4562a81ee606ec149660\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Indeed, I get a lot of such reports, particularly from the National Party, from ACT, from the Business Roundtable, and from Business New Zealand, complaining continually that the Government is choking off growth in the economy by excessive regulation. They do that despite the strong economic performance of recent years, despite record levels of employment, and despite the effect their comments may have on deterring foreign investment in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd977f87bf814e19a9d72e32cb16d4a8\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any independent commentary on New Zealand as a place to do business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fdda8b72bc24ff68a236ae79d7a93b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, just by chance I have. There is, indeed, a new independent report out that compares countries with each other, as opposed to taking an absolutist view, and it has been carried out by the World Bank, which I think Dr Brash used to work for at one point. In a survey covering more than 130 countries, New Zealand was rated as the least regulated economy and as one of the easiest places to start a new business. That assessment is in line with recent reports from Moody\u2019s and Standard and Poor\u2019s, and I tell the Opposition to wait a bit longer for an IMF report that is coming out soon, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e994cef4583c4d939eafdc4b2aff21bc\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister acknowledge that the current Government\u2019s policies in relation to holidays and employment law will, in the future, lead to a deterioration in New Zealand\u2019s performance as measured by the World Bank today; and, if growth is important to this Government, can he tell the House why on earth the Government has appointed Margaret Wilson as Minister of Commerce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224389cdd011404a2cb24d635e6805b8c7\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt, but when a member on the Opposition side of the House called out during a question, you said very firmly that that would be the last time that would be happening in the House. We have had the entire Government front bench calling out, and all you did was to call out \u201COrder!\u201D. I suggest that we need some consistency between the Opposition benches and the Government benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e9ad7d5ea184b839423893c6a8cbab6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think I do my very best to maintain consistency. Occasionally during an answer a somewhat witty comment is made, and one cannot rule out a little bit of laughter. I thought the member was asking a very good question, and he was making his point extremely well. The Minister is not responsible for the appointment of Ministers; that is the Prime Minister\u2019s job. [Interruption] The first part of the question is in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c580b43efb494088acc4ae93e6245fde\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I can quote from the World Bank report: \u201CGood regulation does not mean zero regulation.\u201D This Government is committed to needs-based regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf8f02690a94eb8959fbec3b4e3e306\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the legion of small and medium sized business owners who, despite not having the facility to produce a glossy report, are none the less wholly discontent with the current suffocating regime of regulations, compliance with which demands considerable time that otherwise could be spent on growing their businesses; if so, what does he plan to do to ease their strain?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f055e850044d4b81bf2c85f51f05f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I refer to another press statement reported in this morning\u2019s New Zealand Herald from my excellent colleague Mr David Cunliffe. We have announced, obviously, that we are having a 6.7 percent discount for the early payment of provisional tax in the first year. Work is proceeding in areas in relation to aligning GST with provisional tax payments, and on a number of other moves to simplify taxation for small business. This is needs-based deregulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd35fbf8ca7041efaa4e9a49d25b9c93\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002281de4e2587de44b2b8d1fcff18e06c95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281de4e2587de44b2b8d1fcff18e06c95\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have now had the opportunity to review the document that was tabled by Mr English, and I now want to invite him to correct the statement that he made when he told the House a lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022b622bbb450fd40fdaa0c6df9311f1c38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b622bbb450fd40fdaa0c6df9311f1c38\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That point of order is out of order. It is a debating point. We are to have a Budget Policy Statement debate shortly, and I suggest that that is the time to raise that particular matter, or by letter to me for another particular offence that  is not mentioned in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229ecd97dbff784b149b8f6837e9c98db4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ecd97dbff784b149b8f6837e9c98db4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I ask you to ask the member for Clutha-Southland whether he intends to table the document that he described, because he has not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002267194a893bfe49549e7908d3b827f277\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267194a893bfe49549e7908d3b827f277\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Bill English sought to table a document, he was given leave, and he tabled it. [Interruption] I will not be interrupted while I am on my feet. I do not care who the person is. As far as I am concerned I accept that the member asked for the document to be tabled. He has tabled it, and that is the end of the matter. There are other ways of dealing with this matter, as the Minister well knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e88ea4f419d044fca8047c92f134f485\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re off to the Privileges Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdfff202672f423eba746bd0e0fef802\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I now ask the Minister to leave the Chamber. I will not have any more interjections like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00225410e2b301ac46228e346e169a7740c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225410e2b301ac46228e346e169a7740c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think there is some difficulty with your answer, in that we are no wiser as to what the course of action should be for a member to take. In this circumstance if, for example, someone says that he or she intends to table Shakespeare, and tables something entirely different from the document that was described, what is the course of action that the House should take in respect of that member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae00afeea17449e08f4cfe0b6bf9098b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae00afeea17449e08f4cfe0b6bf9098b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/4 states that members must sufficiently describe the document they intend to table. If they deliberately mislead the House that is dealt with in a different way, and that is by writing to me. However, I judged that the member asked to table a document, it was accepted in good faith, and I accept that he tabled what he asked to table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00223df2f008801a462a9be12ca1b4e0c500\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223df2f008801a462a9be12ca1b4e0c500\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I take it from that last comment that you are not prejudging any letter you may receive, because I see you have not seen the document that was tabled, and therefore cannot make a judgment that it was in fact the document that was sought to be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00228de55b5baea9457f9ec4c5f8c6d41291\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228de55b5baea9457f9ec4c5f8c6d41291\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! I have not seen the document, and if I have any further business in this I will most certainly read it very, very carefully. It has been handed only to the Clerk; it has not been handed to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002291047e0fe23a429390a71c344b3fa37e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291047e0fe23a429390a71c344b3fa37e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I remind you that our senior whip, John Carter, in fact took the issue up with you in relation to how well the document in question was described. I am sure that you will take into account the Hansard description as far as it was able to be given by Mr English. It could well be that Mr Mallard understood that a different document was being tabled from the one that was actually being requested for tabling, given that that full request was not heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa08b38249a44862b8e6c836bdcf8501\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa08b38249a44862b8e6c836bdcf8501\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is hypothetical, and I will deal with the situation if I have to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00228fad0a67135242a185346862079a5553\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fad0a67135242a185346862079a5553\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I will not ask you to have Mr Mallard back, but perhaps you might decide that you do want to have him back. On dealing with matters of disorder, especially when a member makes an allegation across the House, that, by innuendo, implies that a member has misled or lied to the House, Speakers have required that allegation to be withdrawn and apologised for. In this case there is no doubt about that. When a member calls out \u201CYou\u2019re off to the Privileges Committee.\u201D, there is a clear understanding that he is saying that a member has misled the House. That is a most grossly disorderly statement. In fact, what should have happened is that the Minister should have been required to rise, withdraw, and apologise, been given an appropriate warning, and then sent out. I just say to you that we are now in a position where Mr Mallard has been able to make a grossly disorderly comment and it has been allowed to stand on the record. He has not been required to withdraw and apologise. I regard that as a very unsatisfactory situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00225df948a0498844d19f06e9dbaafda77d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225df948a0498844d19f06e9dbaafda77d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Prebble has covered the innuendo raised by Mr Mallard about my tabling of a document. I raise the additional point that Mr Mallard called me a liar, certainly within your earshot, as he sat in his chair. That further compounds the problem raised by Mr Prebble. It is not my intention to allow Trevor Mallard to bully me into submission, or this side of the House. I am sure he will continue to use those tactics; however, we will need your intervention as Speaker sometimes to ensure that he is required to comply with the conventions of this House. One convention is that if a member labels another member a liar, that has to be withdrawn, and there has to be an apology. He then also has to withdraw and apologise for the matter raised by Mr Prebble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b56d199029604ceda159fac8b3f019f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b56d199029604ceda159fac8b3f019f4\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not think that we want to see Mr Mallard at the moment. I think the proper answer is for you to rule that before Mr Mallard can resume his seat he must raise a point of order and withdraw and apologise. I did not realise that he started to call the right honourable gentleman a liar. However, if that is the case, it most certainly cannot stand, and he most certainly should withdraw and apologise to the whole House for making those two statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022542c1a50ff6d4b7ebe9a91b1ce63ed42\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not hear him use that word. If I had, I would have required him to withdraw and apologise immediately and then he would have been sent out. The member is perfectly correct. When the Minister comes into the Chamber next he will be asked to withdraw and apologise for that comment. He will be asked whether he made that statement. If he says that he did make that statement, then he will have to withdraw and apologise for it. I will not call him back until he comes back. At that point he will have to do something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1b2f68ede7f405aab0f0a782d4cf854\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8a869aa45274651ae796898fc1c3a40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8a869aa45274651ae796898fc1c3a40\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I thank you for your forbearance. It is something totally different, and I am just taking the opportunity during this pause. At the end of my supplementary question to question No. 2, you cautioned me, quite appropriately, as to the appropriateness and the acceptability of my breaching conventions by criticising the judiciary. I fully accept that. With that in mind, I seek the leave of the House to table the sentencing notes by Judge Durie on the trial and conviction of Warwick Whare Reuben Kershaw, the man who murdered that wee 3-year-old girl Anahera.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212723a6fdc844513afc3b3791f0fc793\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been asked to table those. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00221d54c0c21dd44e56a90a2f4644a27813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d54c0c21dd44e56a90a2f4644a27813\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We must object to that. The member, by implication, is saying that he is correct to criticise the judiciary. He most certainly cannot use the House to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251f8f569da0a40ecbf8b55255c7590b0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave. Any member can object. Objection is raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b4656538ca5412cb7cece72410ec3bc\u0022\u003EEconomic Development\u2014Limited Employment Locations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05e8220b5454e93bd955db316e907c7\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Is he confident that all 265 towns named by Work and Income as limited employment locations offer no job prospects and no potential for local economic development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f319f0b44edc4e3685ca96906c906091\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f319f0b44edc4e3685ca96906c906091\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The 259 localities released today\u2014and for the most part they are not towns\u2014were selected having considered the following: the number of local people already looking for work; the number of job placements made in the area over the last year; the local employment opportunities, and the availability of local transport to travel to work. The alert list is a live list that will be regularly reviewed. If new opportunities are created in a locality\u2014and with the Government\u2019s regional development policies, I am sure they will be\u2014that locality will be removed from the list forthwith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c664bdce32e340cdbc17e72e3f76bb51\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in the light of the announcement today that, should it have been a real situation, Pikea\u2019s father in Whale Rider would not have been able to return to Whangara, which has been placed firmly on the no-go list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e502d9be2dbe49d9b6cc6e9e1edf425a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: There are, of course, no no-go lists or dead-zone lists, or whatever words the member wants to call them. It would depend on whether he or she could pass the job seeker requirements. I do not know why anybody in this House would want a benefit paid to somebody who is an active job seeker if they have said that they have no way of meeting the job seeker test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022627ac71a99524f02bfffa9e347cba2cf\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Before we pursue this much further, the member should be asked to authenticate those statements. I saw the movie, and there was no sign that he was on an unemployment benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f27b240eccc24c1096f5758cac727a0a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member talking about the Minister or the member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae6e431d5c1467aa193af7ca6f17b04\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: The member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9085861411a417487a9dfed80195bb3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member, in her supplementary question, does not have to authenticate in the way she has to for the original question \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d49df14c6741b595b70fec7d70729f\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s limited employment locations policy assist unemployed people seeking work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b07a75a4421420eb15d4f1828101b10\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: We have a very low unemployment rate in this country, and we want to ensure that everybody gets a job. The policy is designed to encourage people to seek work in locations where there are good work opportunities, discourage people from moving to locations where there are few or no opportunities, and ensure that local people already seeking work are not further disadvantaged by having other job seekers move to that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab63ca56fc34cbd8bc3bf7df41a23dd\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why should this House believe that Work and Income New Zealand will apply this policy, when not one person who has moved to a remote area within the past 5 years has failed any work-test requirement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282b0ceb1782c49ce8b369b945ac223e8\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member might like to know that Work and Income New Zealand changed its name to Work and Income some years ago. It is worth keeping up. [Interruption] I am just saying\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250134209ffd04394b9c3f3e7d1855e54\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224b5e9af6a98434c969bc22cefb17702\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think we can have a great deal of faith in Work and Income ensuring that people get jobs. It has been participating in reducing the unemployment rate to the fifth lowest in the developed world, and it will carry on doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f72301ad4ea343ddaf800100a089aa50\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government is not prepared to pay the dole to people who want to move to blacklisted communities where there are no jobs, can the Minister explain to the House exactly why it is that the Labour Government is prepared to pay the dole to a fit and healthy 18-year-old who already lives in such a community, and who plans to stay there until he retires?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91fbf2d1ea4477aa0e212e3a1abd9fb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I should repeat that there are no blacklisted areas of the country. The member raises a hypothetical question about a young, fit, and healthy person. I say that young, fit, and healthy person will probably be visited in the very near future by one of the mobile units from Work and Income, taking the service to his or her doorstep. That person will get a job, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227328c536b7564029923674fe96d4fc0d\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that this policy has been misrepresented to imply that those who already live in limited employment locations will lose their benefit, when, in reality, it will only sanction beneficiaries who move into these areas without a job lined up first; if so, does he not think it better that these areas do not foster a reputation as a haven for hardened lifestyle dole recipients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e09c65ce95e24ff49110fe07d43cf4bf\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that this policy has been misrepresented. I just stress that once again we are trying with this policy to ensure that people get jobs. That is the point of it. We are in a situation in this country where employers are calling out for labour, and in some cases cannot find people to work in their businesses. We are trying to make sure that people are in the right place to get the right job at the right time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e74d8e6661641189d162a5f5be178f9\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that the Jobs Jolt announcement today makes it clear that tangata whenua returning to papak\u0101inga areas will be treated no differently from anyone else, and why is the Government reverting to the pre-1985 remote areas policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022742fa01adb5c454f8b4a3fc1eac9bf92\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: This is not the remote areas policy at all, which, for example, said that the whole of the West Coast was an area that people could not move to. This is a policy based on case by case analysis of whether people can meet the job seeker requirements that they should be meeting. That is what the policy is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b848dfdd180446fb3134c90333b60df\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: If it is a case by case situation, why on earth are 259 limited employment locations being created?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204465accee3548dc8760a55b4873e2e8\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I read out the criteria at the beginning\u2014and I will not do it again\u2014which set out the notion that people are moving to an area where there are jobs. I said to the member that our outstanding regional development policies, spearheaded by my colleague Mr Jim Anderton, would undoubtedly see many of these areas grow and move off that list in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e75079ca7684d8c8848d217bdf8e378\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why is Blackball on the list of limited employment locations, when it happens to have a thriving community that has just saved its local school from closure and is within commuting distance of Greymouth? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5008cd8f142493c8afbd367d09a8976\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have cautioned members about interjecting during questions. That member is very lucky indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0c2fb3c931640ebb85440495a6813a2\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I read out the criteria before, and they will apply to Blackball, but can I also reassure the House that every locality on this list is there as a result of consultation. It has taken place over the last 3 months with people in local areas, and that is why they support this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022339a0306d98e4ece950480dca2be268e\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister planning to go ahead with this scheme, despite the concerns of mayors like John Forbes in Opotiki and Graham Ramsay in Kaipara, who are worried that labelling parts of their districts as economically unviable will have a detrimental impact on their great efforts towards local and regional development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b30409a719c4d0ba28975701f590071\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I imagine that those mayors find it extremely unhelpful to have Sue Bradford label them that way. The Government has not. Our regional development policies are ones that are valued by those very mayors, and will carry on making their districts even more vibrant in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200d7d4cba9a24884bac7daf63555d6f1\u0022\u003ECrown Forestry Rental Trust\u2014Costs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7fdca3f7837441a98291cc81106161f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What are the total costs including legal, disbursements or consultants\u2019 fees since 1 January 1998 paid by the Crown Forestry Rental Trust in association with the Volcanic Interior Plateau Project Taumata, and to what matters do those costs refer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00229f18fdc0f1904e2dac35e60c10c8f126\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f18fdc0f1904e2dac35e60c10c8f126\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E My role in the trust is limited to the appointment of three Crown trustees. I have no power over or direction capacity in relation to the trust, an organisation independent of Government control. As a consequence neither my office nor Treasury holds the information the member seeks. I can refer the member to the trust\u2019s latest report, which shows it disbursed $10.581 million to the Volcanic Interior Plateau Project between 1990 and 31 March 2003, roughly half of which was in the last 2 years of that period. It is not possible to determine from the report how the disbursements have been applied or whether other expenditure by the trust has directly or indirectly benefited the project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d6b965c9ccf40ca9071e7bd84d4ac13\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that it is in any way remotely reasonable for the beneficiaries or potential beneficiaries of this trust to be given no accounting whatsoever as to the detail of their expenditure, even to the extent that certain claimants as proprietors have never been informed of what portion of their claim in terms of itemised costs is against their account, and how can that be fair in respect of the M\u0101ori people or, for that matter, the taxpayers of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e08f69387c94db08986ad161fe8df03\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The taxpayers do not provide funding now to the trust and have not done so for a long time. Its income comes off the old Crown forest and the rentals thereon. There have been a number of questions surrounding the operations of the trust, and the select committee did an excellent inquiry into that. There have, as I am sure the member is aware, been some recent significant changes in the operations of the trust. External governance advice has been brought in, and certainly I will be maintaining closer contact with the Crown-appointed trustees over the next year to ensure that those reforms continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224677d0557fd94a69ae5120d6e0d3df09\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Law Reform Bill\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e07b6472dbcc4dcfaffec4a29910cc0b\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: Has he received any reports that the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill will create more jobs; if so, who were those reports from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00229d1014329bb641a5b7baebcb76611443\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d1014329bb641a5b7baebcb76611443\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The purpose of the Employment Relations Act and the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill is to build productive employment relationships in the workplace. I have had a report from the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions stating that good work relationships can have a positive effect on economic and job growth. However, I have also seen a report from the New Zealand Business Roundtable stating that there is likely to be a negative impact on jobs as a result of the reform bill. I have also received reports stating that since the Employment Relations Act was introduced in 2001, New Zealand has had the lowest unemployment figures for almost 16 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f29f39b75743178c3e0d29bef86a66\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister also agree with the Treasury statement on the transfer clauses in the bill, which states: \u201CThe imposition of this requirement will not just affect the price paid for businesses or contracts, but will impact on firms\u2019 investment or expansion decisions.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233edbfb973f04168a806715f57274111\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen the comments of Treasury around that matter, and the member will know that it is a big issue that, I imagine, the select committee will consider. However, I do note that Treasury did state that overall, the impact of the proposed changes to the collective bargaining provisions is assessed as modest. Treasury probably stated similar things in 2001, but the facts did not bear out some of the concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022171b72ee135e4637b814c0ea0980063d\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall claims being made that the Employment Relations Act would increase labour costs, industrial action, and unemployment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb51506d030463299f27d8f99b414dc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. The fact is that none of those claims have been proved to be correct. As I have said, New Zealand has its lowest unemployment rate for almost 16 years. In addition, work stoppage figures are steadily declining, and it has been confirmed, as the Minister of Finance has said, that New Zealand is one of the easiest places in the world to start up a new business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d12af72f1422458f97df72b8fe7912e8\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: If nothing else changes and the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill passes as it is, does the Minister believe that there will be greater incentive or less incentive for employers to engage people permanently or casually\u2014or does he not know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267cf3ff4559c4e46a6e3c3972dba0b14\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is too early to say that there will be no changes to the bill. That is what the select committee is doing. I think the member is a member of the committee; he will hear the arguments. Ultimately, the committee\u2019s report will come back to Parliament about the views that have been expressed by the people who came to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a93780aec0404ecb8ccae87fdc01dbdc\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Treasury paper of 21 March 2003 on the transfer clauses, which states: \u201CIncreasing the cost of workforce adjustment will lead to a greater reluctance to hire workers.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022753fb229973741dca2344b15f88bb2ee\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen many of those Treasury reports over the years. I imagine that they stated similar things a couple of years ago, and, of course, the reality of what has happened is that we have high employment growth at the moment in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e6358afd1f948e9b596d6213e58ffe6\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have any evidence that the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill will increase employment, or is he just choosing not to agree with the Treasury paper because it is from Treasury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225ced0a8ccb2458fa2c33c2ed1c8e997\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, evidence around things that may happen in the future is not possible to get, but the reality is that those claims were made in 2001, as the member has stated, and what has happened is that employment growth is high and unemployment is at its lowest level in 16 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d28bfbc4e5204770b8f638554258795e\u0022\u003EWorld Trade Organization\u2014Multilateral Negotiations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4a138e1d63a469b8ec50f2fcd3a1f8e\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade Negotiations: What progress can he report on multilateral negotiations at the World Trade Organization?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022817007b488c543de94c7e39e8b34bc8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022817007b488c543de94c7e39e8b34bc8a\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I have recently returned from an excellent Cairns group meeting in Costa Rica. Group members are determined to reinvigorate the World Trade Organization negotiations in order to secure a substantial agricultural reform. Additionally, we are committed to a coordinated work programme with the G20 group, with whom we share many objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249f50043fffe4d93acd7f7fea197fb99\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Why is that important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc53da09da3472881a18540b9884309\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The multilateral negotiations offer us the best opportunities as a trading nation. It is the only arena in which we can effectively combat export subsidies, for example\u2014the most pernicious barrier to our trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a21a273ea9294f5f8a48bff9a5ad1460\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What progress can the Minister report on reinvigorating New Zealand\u2019s free-trade agreement negotiations with the US, following his recent talks with US Trade Representative Robert Zoellick, or did he come home empty-handed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb9cdc553bac4321af561420d3eda6be\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I suppose that is connected in some way with the World Trade Organization negotiations, which was the subject of the primary question. I can inform the member that I had another successful meeting with Mr Zoellick\u2014at which we spent a lot of time discussing the World Trade Organization round, as a matter of fact\u2014and I certainly did not come home empty-handed. New Zealand made further headway in developing our constituency in Washington, DC\u2014on the hill, and in the US business community\u2014in support of bilateral negotiation with New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cceee1c6e8844a0f9534445566d79302\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What action will the Minister be taking, following the World Trade Organization\u2019s report that New Zealand apples are not a pathway for transmission of fire blight; and when can New Zealand apple growers expect to see the minority Labour Government Minister for Trade Negotiations doing something personally to end the devious Australian trade practice of prohibiting New Zealand apple exports to Australia, or will he just keep on swanning around the world, empty-handed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225d26ecc29c6443e922256f6e86659f9\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: There are some members here who recall that I have done a great deal personally, starting in 1990 when I was Minister of Agriculture. I was dismayed to find in 1999, when I came back into office, that a great deal of progress made previously had gone backwards under the National Government. Nevertheless, we are now heading forward again. The Australian Government the other day produced a new import health standard\u2014which is out for a 6-week consultation, as required by Australian law\u2014and I am confident that we will move this matter forward, despite it being election year in Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002212b8940a34cf43cd91e5ad0b2bb3557d\u0022\u003EDisputes Tribunal\u2014Referee Unavailability\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213856d27f97544c6b709203536d0709f\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Courts: How many cases have been deferred by the disputes tribunal over the past week because of referee unavailability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00220583e6283e444fcc963f5204aac5b056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220583e6283e444fcc963f5204aac5b056\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Figures made available to me by the Ministry of Justice indicate that 92 cases have been deferred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d51252a61ecd427aaa4cc2ae0d5c4bb4\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that, through the general manager of the courts, he has ordered court officials not to tell those applicants to the disputes tribunal the true reason for the deferment of their dispute cases, which is that the referees are on strike because he is refusing, in bad faith, to meet with them to discuss their concerns; and is that not just another case of a Government department \u201Cdenying in unison\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a69e74280c4b5ba32a0a0ff0018578\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely deny that. That is completely and utterly untrue, and that member knows it. No such order has ever been given by me or anybody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ebd5681d6e2431db46600955250749d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot say that it is untrue and that the member knows it. He will withdraw and apologise for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222186f6fbe7844437b39eb083ed9bc45e\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265a585e1aa5b44e485587c46d0f1c57b\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. When the Minister says that something is utterly untrue, I think he is under an obligation to let us know what is untrue. Is he saying that the referees are not on strike, or that he has not told anyone that they are not on strike, or that the court has not told anyone that they are not on strike? Just saying that it is untrue leaves the House completely confused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3131997057042a7ab10c3d9dfdba548\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The Minister addressed the question. He was asked a question, and his answer was that that was untrue. He is entitled to give that as an answer, but it can lead to further supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e1e93982cd840898011110e0894e2a8\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: What steps has the Minister taken in relation to the daily rate of disputes tribunal referees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c3af5f28b5b434084e629e17c08d322\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have taken a number of steps. A paper has been to Cabinet that addresses the two main issues of concern raised by the referees\u2014the first being the level of the daily fee, and the second being the frequency of fee review. The referees\u2019 executive association, which represents a number of the referees, was given the opportunity for a face-to-face meeting with me. Regrettably, it declined that opportunity. I find it somewhat frustrating in trying to resolve this matter, because one party to the issue declines an opportunity to meet and discuss the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc9feccd650439ea70cbe395ffe91fe\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What action is the Minister undertaking to ensure that more applicants to the disputes tribunals will not be turned away for up to 3 months before their cases can be heard; and do any of these actions involve his keeping his word and undertaking to negotiate in good faith with these judicial officers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022762e77ec2a8a46c993ad8fac39b29ee7\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I always keep my word, and I act in good faith. I resent any implication by any member of this House to the contrary. I undertook to the referees to go to Cabinet with a paper. I have done so. I have a result. I rang and asked the referees for a meeting, in response to their letter, and so far they have declined to meet. I cannot force people into my office. I would dearly like to meet them to resolve this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0cb180aee7b4dd8a540e471cf9ff982\u0022\u003EMurray Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in May 2002 the referees\u2019 association was told by the general manager of special jurisdictions within the Department for Courts that a fee review would commence in late June 2002, and be completed by 30 September 2002, and that that has been a major factor in the huge frustration among referees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022415cf85985a149909b8e913c7bb5bb34\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In general terms, I think that is correct, although I cannot be absolutely certain about the specifics. I understand, and have heard, the extreme frustration of the disputes tribunals referees, and I am doing my very best to respond to that. I would like to sit down and discuss the matter with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f18fd877d14566a6f5178e0f897c55\u0022\u003EMurray Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter to the general manager from the chairperson of the disputes tribunals\u2019 referees association, dated 2 April 2003, expressing the referees\u2019 concern and frustration in terms of getting a final recommendation made in terms of fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252aabb6e47474d608a16fb8a92a8194a\u0022\u003ETourism\u2014International Media Profile\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a596ebcdbaa24d6f82cc0a792c5144e1\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Tourism: What reports has he received about New Zealand\u2019s international media profile as a premier visitor destination?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00220797cb41521d4877bba311fa6fc80490\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220797cb41521d4877bba311fa6fc80490\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Tourism New Zealand has already won several prestigious international awards this year for the successful \u201C100 Percent Pure New Zealand\u201D campaign. This Government\u2019s $15 million tactical investment in extending the campaign in North America has been money that was well spent. That is particularly the case given the ongoing leveraging work on the hugely successful The Lord of the Rings project. Tourism New Zealand has continued its leveraging with full-page \u201C100 Percent Pure New Zealand\u201D advertisements\u2014I have a couple of copies of them here\u2014in the Los Angeles Times and the New York Times. Once again, this Government\u2019s partnership with industry has promoted success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e9ad2310b34699a77be7a3beeb166e\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What is the current state of the tourism market in New Zealand\u2014in particular, with reference to visitor arrivals and foreign exchange earnings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c7becc6a40c4dd1924267540ab7d42a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I have received reports showing that Tourism New Zealand\u2019s highly successful targeting of the interactive traveller has more than proved its worth. Two thousand and three was another record year for tourism, with over 2.1 million international visitor arrivals\u20143 percent up on 2002\u2019s all-time high of 2 million visitor arrivals. That ended a year marked by Sars, terrorism, and international conflict in positive growth mode, and it is yet another illustration that the Government\u2019s strong partnership with the sector is working. Although the serious weather events of recent weeks are likely to have some negative effect, the trend is obviously increasing in 2004, with an amazing 11 percent increase in visitor arrivals in January 2004 compared with January of last year. That is worth an additional $60 million in foreign exchange earnings to the Minister of Finance, just for that one month. As my colleague the Minister of Finance noted\u2014[Interruption] But there is so much more, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9478b363cad460b897e58c1ae1a8b30\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5951fbfa49c4904abfad4b8b046ad63\u0022\u003EResource Management Act\u2014M\u0101ori Participation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270665ee18dbc43d292c0330162546fae\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Justice: Why is the Government establishing 16 working-groups with local authorities and wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B and iwi, to \u201Cenhance participation opportunities \u2026 in decision making processes affecting the coastal marine area\u201D, given her statement on 18 February that M\u0101ori will only have \u201Cthe methods of communication that are already provided for in the Resource Management Act\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002216457ee2c44046809b801c2f8d9da80a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216457ee2c44046809b801c2f8d9da80a\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is currently reviewing a number of options to improve decision making under the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229109a58ac2c44bcaaa6ebc4ef4bf7d6\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister state that M\u0101ori will have no more consultation rights than they already have, when paragraph 97 of the December proposals specifically refers to the establishing of the 16 working-groups to \u201Cenhance participation opportunities\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229a281be5f7647e0a6de330bff8c74d6\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: That statement referred to existing obligations to consult with tangata whenua and to making them more effective, which is what is being required by everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209cde940bc4e499f94b4176aedc9375c\u0022\u003EMita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: What are the current requirements of the Resource Management Act in relation to consultation with tangata whenua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f8592f263549879d911dd38f04d600\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 3(d) of the first schedule states that during the preparation of a proposed policy statement or plan the local authority shall consult, amongst others, the tangata whenua of the area who may be so affected, through iwi authorities and tribal r\u016Bnanga. I do note that that legislation was passed in 1991.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7bb8e8e753941d5af0c6e3d59591a0c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: In the interests of consistency, would the Minister tell the House whether there is any difference in principle or substance between the Government\u2019s policy in this area and the Mahi a Iwi policy, which \u201Cinvolves working in partnership with iwi or tribal groups\u201D, as enunciated by the National Party in 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d44bd7c04f8e460a9d590e143f17dd48\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member just repeat the question so that I can see that it is in order and that the Minister has responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9fd52dab1a42ceadde6bc5d0847c3e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am asking the Minister whether there is any difference in principle or substance between the Government\u2019s policy as enunciated here and the Mahi a Iwi policy, involving \u201Cworking in partnership with iwi or tribal groups\u201D, as established by the National Government in 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a6e97cb207e42d2a4bd7bb8634d2a34\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. In principle, it is the same policy, which is why I am surprised at the Opposition\u2019s questioning. The only explanation I can give is that we do want to improve it and the Opposition wants mediocrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6c6fef867794ad09409cad121439d5a\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Will P\u0101keh\u0101 marine farmers and private jetty owners\u2014for example, families who own baches in the Marlborough Sounds\u2014be included in these working-groups, now that the Government is telling us that it has abandoned race distinctions and is looking only at need; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b222a195354f3fadda7c60f40cd53d\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Under the current legislation, upon which the Government\u2019s proposals are based, a local authority can consult anyone, and does, and that is best practice. Precisely how local authorities do that varies from council to council, and that is why central government is endeavouring to assist the councils to improve consultation for everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f61f1712d74aaaa08a7ee4586c83ce\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Government maintain this fiction that all it is doing is improving the Resource Management Act, when in fact it is establishing M\u0101ori customary title over virtually the entire coastline?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf42b24103e418c8d3f63100905db6a\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: M\u0101ori already have customary title over the whole coastline. The member is again confusing customary title with customary rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb0362ae91f4597a557ab57736f0375\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Under what authority or court decision does the Minister decide that M\u0101ori already have customary title over most or all of the coastline, and if that is now going to be written into further legislation, when will the Government move to remove the race discrimination in the Resource Management Act or any other legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253479d2f300c49b18ceeed579e6f0c2f\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: According to M\u0101ori customary rights, they have a connection with particular areas of the coastline. In that sense, it does not need legislation from their perspective. [Interruption] Well, it does not. [Interruption] Good, exactly. However, we have been endeavouring to give an opportunity to clarify that, so that we can improve their participation in decision making relating to the management of it. It is as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022026895a9dfef46789adbd4aef30b8426\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister now explain, then, why the Government is even proposing legislation, as it appears from her previous answer that M\u0101ori say they already have customary title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229282701c35ca4e529782d43941b4cc38\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is because the whole issue is about customary rights, not customary title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daeb8fea631647dc8c8cddba2ef8e725\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: In the interests of exposing the DNA behind this policy, I seek leave to table National\u2019s 1999 action plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f514315637cd4b9282e5f9c95c071170\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: On the basis that Margaret Wilson, the Attorney-General, has today told the House that the Government believes that M\u0101ori currently have customary title to the seabed and foreshore\u2014a revelation that I am sure comes as news to most people in this House and, indeed, to most of those who have been commentating on this issue since the outset\u2014I seek leave for there to be an urgent debate on this matter immediately following question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d4c9255f39847b0990d2e3ed0f1b89c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002234488d2a12954c158cc66479776e32fb\u0022\u003EFilms, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill\u2014Reclassification\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdb012faa204410ab8617a12e2ebc1fe\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Is he supportive of proposals to reclassify the use of urine or excrement in association with degrading or dehumanising or sexual conduct as being no longer \u201Cobjectionable\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfa2c40ce9ff42a3849575a755e7ba80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfa2c40ce9ff42a3849575a755e7ba80\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Internal Affairs: Unlike all the other matters listed in section 3(2)) of the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act, which are automatically deemed to be objectionable, the use of urine or excrement in association with sexual conduct is not itself a serious criminal offence. In the light of the increases in the maximum penalties proposed in the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill for the supply of section 3(2) material to a maximum of 10 years\u2019 imprisonment, retaining section 3(2)(d), covering the matters referred to, could be seen as potentially excessive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e205dac9c2794b048e33a4afb9785d66\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is he telling the House that it is Government policy that films or videos that depict the use of urine or excrement in association with degrading or dehumanising or sexual conduct are not objectionable in themselves; has Cabinet signed up to this, and have his coalition partners and support parties signed up to it also?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022909e3bdc2ba34f94bec771a27f42e436\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Such material can still be classified as objectionable. Indeed, this particular matter has been transferred to section 3(3)(a) of the principal Act. It is not removed from the principal Act but removed from section 3(2) to section 3(3)(a). No doubt the select\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290c92c0484084da2a4cf1b05432c53a0\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014you\u2019ve got it wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4798426c5e2454ba972ee0dd98a8a42\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, yes\u2014I am sorry, but that is true. The member will have to read the bill more carefully. No doubt the select committee will give careful consideration to this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201d18e45abe34c9cb9b3f4531109194c\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Who does the Minister believe will benefit from this type of legislation? Who will be rubbing their hands with glee\u2014the weirdos or wonder boys, or the average New Zealander? Does the Minister agree that the average New Zealander will be appalled by this amendment to the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228def652e53994591a58b0f4dde328a3f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think this is one of those issues where we simply have to talk through carefully what is proposed. To retain this material in section 3(2), as opposed to section 3(3), could involve somebody who is actually transferring such a video to another person\u2014and a maximum penalty of 10 years\u2014when, unlike all the other material in section 3(2), the use of urine and excrement in association with sexual conduct is not itself a serious criminal offence. If the member wants to introduce a member\u2019s bill to do that, then that is a different matter. I have no doubt that the vast majority of people\u2014and, I assume, the vast majority of members of this House\u2014would find such association objectionable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022914ce8e887ea423b8cef394e3552f165\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b131afa5f3854db89709d333b1481e10\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Law Reform Bill\u2014Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3029eed37a3454ca06cc339d03d5c2e\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee: How many submissions have been received by the committee on the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u00227ec9efdfd4dd4906a918c73814ca651c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ec9efdfd4dd4906a918c73814ca651c\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee):\u003C/span\u003E At the end of the closing date for submissions, which was Friday, 27 February, 241 submissions had been received. A number of further submissions are being processed, and it is estimated that the final total will be about 320.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287013ba386d249d682d15c7da2cf7297\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Will the chair ensure that submissions are not heard in the same way as those on the original Employment Relations Bill, when business was heard late at night and unions were heard in media-friendly time zones during the day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce6361e73f44a1bbd634996db929842\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: The committee will hear submissions in the way in which the clerks organise them. Just to give the member an assurance, tomorrow Business New Zealand will be at the committee, along with one union, between 11 a.m. and 12 midday. That shows that this committee is switched on and knows how to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f2b3e93924049d38a7bf16d2c69d1dc\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022165aa2f76af1488f8364d218ba2a1ae0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00223d5729df38a94c4aa4f846f478ece616\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d5729df38a94c4aa4f846f478ece616\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this afternoon my colleague Ron Mark was stopped from tabling a document. During that time Mr Prebble raised an objection to comments made in respect of the judiciary. I fear that members are not having regard to Standing Order 113, which states: \u201CA member may not use offensive words against the House or against any member of the judiciary.\u201D, and to Speaker\u2019s ruling 31/6. There is a world of difference between saying something that is derogatory of the judiciary and saying that a judge has got it wrong, has made a mistake, or in fact has misdirected himself on the matters before him. I think my colleague is entitled to say what he said. That being the case, his comments not being in my view\u2014on the Speaker\u2019s ruling and the Standing Order I cited\u2014out of order, we seek leave to table the document, which is the sentencing judgment of Durie J in the Warwick Whare Reuben Kershaw case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022d380777441174de19ecd3807c8e9ccbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d380777441174de19ecd3807c8e9ccbd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It does not matter what Mr Prebble\u2019s reasons were, he is entitled to deny leave. Any member in this House can deny leave. The member has now asked for leave to be granted to table a further document. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00223fe8b1498fae4c14bd4b6b47fd0337c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fe8b1498fae4c14bd4b6b47fd0337c0\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I object to being put in this position, because, as a general rule, I do not object to members tabling documents. Indeed, if you look through Speakers\u2019 Rulings, you will find that reading from a court judgment is not out of order. Tabling a court judgment, by itself, is not out of order. What is out of order is making a reflection against the judiciary. The point I asked you to look at, which I do not think you did, was to do with what I believed I heard Mr Ron Mark say when he was raising his original question. I thought he was making a reflection against the judiciary. The words I thought he said were \u201Csoft sentencing by judges\u201D\u2014or reflections of that sort\u2014which you ruled out of order. Subsequently, he wanted to table a document, which I took to be a direct challenge to you, Mr Speaker, that was, in fact, showing that here was a judge who was behaving in a way that this House should reprimand. You then said that by leave he could do that. I put it to you that that is not so. The House cannot give leave to criticise a judge. It is actually prohibited from doing that in the Standing Orders. We would have to suspend the Standing Orders to be able to do that. But if you are ruling that he is not criticising a judge, then at that point I will have no objection to the member tabling a judgment; but, if he is, then it is your duty not to allow him to do so\u2014and he cannot do it by innuendo, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022d15db2f375f64c8190564ad46bf4b81c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d15db2f375f64c8190564ad46bf4b81c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As usual, the member has raised a very valid point of order, and what he said is perfectly correct. The House is not concerned with a member\u2019s reason for objecting to leave to table a document\u2014members should not give reasons, they should merely object. As far as I am concerned, I do not know what is in the judgment, nor could I be expected to know what is in the judgment. Leave was sought to table a particular judgment. I did not take that as a reflection on my ruling. I took it as a member wanting to table a document. A member is perfectly entitled to seek the leave of the House, not to do virtually anything, but to do things that are within the Standing Orders of this House. I wonder whether the member wanted to make any further comment on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00227492f605a8b34cc2a2d5b62860df4580\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227492f605a8b34cc2a2d5b62860df4580\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Provided that I get an assurance from the right honourable gentleman that New Zealand First is not making a reflection on the judiciary, then I have no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002221a0afd9580744a084d101bb2e693763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221a0afd9580744a084d101bb2e693763\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to give that assurance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002209aaad3a4cec43b7ba07e635f05fa4dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209aaad3a4cec43b7ba07e635f05fa4dc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, regardless of what you just heard, the fact is that they are two totally separate and different events. Seeking leave to table a judgment of the court that is perhaps, though public, not known by members is a totally separate matter from one\u2019s view of a decision a judge might have made. It is up to members to distinguish between offensive behaviour in respect of a judge and criticising a judgment. They are two different things. My fear was that Mr Prebble had, unknowingly, misled the House as to the import of what Mr Ron Mark had said when he sought leave at that time, and nothing in seeking leave relates to what he said at a prior time. It is a different exercise in his rights as a member of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00226d8d808fe8a9418d84a7e87c57641c77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d8d808fe8a9418d84a7e87c57641c77\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the best way to solve this is to ask for leave to table the particular judgment that the member wanted to table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00221c7a7790475e4f08bb97ba5396abacbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c7a7790475e4f08bb97ba5396abacbe\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I am afraid that will not do. If the member is prepared to give an assurance to the House that he is not seeking to make a reflection on the judiciary, then I have no objection, but his failure to do so does, I think, raise a real suspicion in our minds, and we do have a duty in this House to uphold the rule of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002241c0f8d492824aafa9cc4d6795a1317b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241c0f8d492824aafa9cc4d6795a1317b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, and I support that rule, but I have no way of knowing myself what is in the judgment. If the member does not give the assurance, then anybody is perfectly at liberty to deny leave to table it. I think that the best thing, as I said before, is to ask whether there is any objection. If Mr Mark does not want to make any further comment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002219f8c6b082bb4fbead21d1b88a08a226\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219f8c6b082bb4fbead21d1b88a08a226\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Again I seek leave to table this judgment by Judge Durie in the Kershaw case and, although it is totally unprecedented, in tabling the judgment we in New Zealand First make no comment at this time on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00221b3394058c4945b0b4d54b51eff9b6d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b3394058c4945b0b4d54b51eff9b6d2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the judgement. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224bd3d7739e2e4308974e9a340c67436e\u0022\u003EDebate on Budget Policy Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bc5271243424f55bf5432fd33d28485\u0022\u003EDebate on Budget Policy Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00229509daaef81b44a892bbba9d3fff5378\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229509daaef81b44a892bbba9d3fff5378\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are twelve 10-minute speeches. I still have one issue to resolve about one call. There will be one split speech between New Zealand First and National, towards the end of the debate. I have ruled that that is in order. I will give a bell at the end of 5 minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022d337d57f5f5e49d1808d9785a848c661\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d337d57f5f5e49d1808d9785a848c661\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of the Budget Policy Statement and the report on it of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Firstly, I want to commend the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their robust review of the Budget Policy Statement for 2004. The committee examined 14 submissions. A couple were from what my colleague John Tamihere has described as the \u201Cbig end of town\u201D\u2014that is, the Business Roundtable and Business New Zealand. But also\u2014and I think this is very positive\u2014there were a large number from the social organisations that are at the coalface of trying to deal with and assist people in need in our community. They had many positive things to say about the direction of this Government, and the direction of the upcoming Budget, as signalled in the Budget Policy Statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ETo quote from the statement: \u201CThe Budget Policy Statement sets out the overarching fiscal parameters that will guide Budget 2004 and outlines the Government\u2019s policy focus.\u201D That focus is unchanged. It is about providing for those on low and middle incomes who are in need. It is about providing stability and providing the necessary ingredients to continue the growth we have seen in this economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe are here to focus on the Budget Policy Statement, and also on the issues that are foreshadowed within it for the upcoming Budget. This is an economic debate. It gives us the opportunity also to look at the economic progress and social progress of our country. But I have to ask, given that this debate is an economic debate, why it is that the National Party, since our return to the House this year, has failed, and has refused even, to engage in debate on economic policy. There is a simple answer to that. When it comes to economic policy, Dr Brash and his team look at the statistics and they are outflanked. They are completely outflanked in terms of economic growth, in terms of employment statistics, and in terms of growth in the numbers in apprenticeships and training. They are outflanked directly on economic policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at some of the good news. Since this Government came to office, 170,000 new jobs have been created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edfe4ec55bec404189708bb8c62cb3f3\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member\u2019s speech, but obviously he has not been paying attention during a number of speeches I have given in the House on the economy, including the speech I made during the Address in Reply debate. I am happy to table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6fa6c9dfbe1425b91b63b854c2c9146\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is interrupting the debate. It is a debating point, and it can be used as a debating point when the time comes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f9f8b76fa864b039e88e24910ca1bd2\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ceaa95b9829468fb2e8f34c35fcbb63\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave to table a document. This is not the appropriate time to seek leave. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022254744cad1f744be88568eaeee0467c8\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you for your protection, but when it comes to that member I have no requirement for it. That little act simply illustrates for the people of New Zealand the reason that those members are outflanked. Some junior member from somewhere no one has heard about, who lives in Auckland and commutes to his seat now and again, stands up and makes those sorts of statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think this is a serious debate. It is a debate about the economy, which members on that side will not engage in. They will not engage in it because they are beaten at every turn. Since we came into office, 170,000 new jobs have been created. \u201CBeat that!\u201D I say to the Opposition. If we look at our growth rate, we can see that annual growth rates on average for the past 3 years have been 3.4 percent, compared with an OECD average growth rate of 1 percent. What do we get out of that? It means we are well ahead. The member can laugh, but we are well ahead on the OECD rankings, and we are doing well internationally as a country, despite the difficult international conditions that we face and will face in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo the National Party will not engage in debate, and the question we have to ask is, why? Here they are, Dr Brash, the self-confessed economic expert, and John Key, another self-confessed economic expert, but they will not engage in debate on economic policy because they have no economic policy, because they are outflanked, and because they cannot compete with the good news and the positive achievements that this Government has provided in terms of the economy. That party is all about privilege. The only policy\u2014[Interruption] They have a couple of policies. Apart from the spurious race debate that they have tried to ignite\u2014and that is unethical\u2014they have given us two policies. Dr Brash\u2019s tax policy will give somebody on his salary 168 bucks a week, and I think the figure is about 9c a week for the average working person. If that is not based on privilege, I do not know what is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe other policy that people are now starting to switch on to and listen to is his pledge on superannuation. He will hike the age of eligibility and cut the pension. We on this side of the House are happy to engage in the economic arguments, because those members get skewered every time they put them up. I hope they start articulating their economic policy, and then we will show them up for what they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIf we look at the Budget Policy Statement, the fifth that this Government will deliver, we can see that it shows a commitment to leadership and partnership and growth, innovation, fairness, and security for all our people. What we are about is assisting those in need. The centrepiece of this Budget, as outlined by the Minister of Finance, will be the Future Directions policy. Its measures are about, for instance, assisting those in need to gain affordable housing. I refer to single parents and low-income families. We are going to give incentives, obviously, to move those people from welfare into employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIf we look at the health budget, we see that the health funding pathway continues to be rolled out through the primary health organisations and in further investments in our district health boards. Here is one that I would love the Opposition spokesperson on health to engage in. We have increased Vote Health steadily since we have been in office: from $6.9 billion in 1999-2000 to $9.9 billion in the current financial year. That is an effective increase of 43 percent over 5 years. But do we hear any policy on health from Lynda Scott, the National Party part-time spokesperson on health? Do we hear a health policy\u2014a starter for 10? There is none. I ask Lynda Scott to stand up, take a call, and let us have a debate on the $9.9 billion in health funding in the current financial year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI want also to refer to the point that Dr Cullen made in answer to a question today. We hear from the Opposition that we are over-regulated, there is too much compliance cost, and everything is negative. Then we read the World Bank survey, which covers more than 130 countries, that rated New Zealand the least-regulated economy and one of the easiest places to start a new business. Based on that, I ask the Opposition what is its small-business policy. What is its compliance cost policy? Let us engage in that debate. Let us leave all the spurious race relations, provocative stuff  to one side\u2014the naked grab for a vote\u2014and let us talk about the economic fundamentals that Dr Brash and John Key say they are such experts on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ELet us look at education. Operating and capital expenditure on education will increase, as foreshadowed in the Budget Policy Statement. The focus, of course, will be on progressing the early childhood education strategy and improving quality teaching. If we go back and look at the finances, the debt track as outlined in the Budget Policy Statement is well under the Government\u2019s 30 percent of gross domestic product (GDP). The operating balance excluding revaluations and accounting changes is forecast at $5.2 billion, or 3.8 percent of GDP in the current year, rising to $6.3 billion, or 4.4 percent of GDP in the years 2004 and 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Government, in economic terms, is continuing to focus on achieving higher sustainable rates of long-term growth. I do not apologise for Dr Cullen being a bit tight on the purse strings. If we asked people around the country, and some people in this Chamber, the $5.6 billion surplus would be spent three hundred or four hundred times over. But we have to ascertain whether those surpluses are locked in or whether they are cyclical. Dr Cullen has to look across the water, see what is happening internationally, and ensure that we have insulation to protect our people, especially those on low incomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI want to look also at what Mr Ralph Waters, Chief Executive Officer of Fletcher Building, said when he made a comparison, as the National Party always does, between New Zealand\u2019s taxation rates and those of Australia. Because that is the other big pitch that Dr Brash puts in. He says that we are overtaxed compared to Australia. But if we actually look at it and do a comparison between our company tax rates and those of Australia, and there is an accurate representation, they stack up very badly against New Zealand. I have lived there and paid taxes there. When someone rolls into the Australian tax system there are other taxes, such as capital gains tax, payroll tax, etc. What did Mr Ralph Waters say? He said that Australia\u2019s company tax rate advantage is a myth. Do not believe me, and I do not expect the Opposition to believe me, but believe one of the big guns in one of our big companies when he says that Australia\u2019s company tax advantage is a myth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI want to conclude by challenging the Opposition today to put up or shut up. I challenge Opposition members today\u2014Mr Key will obviously be the next speaker, and I challenge Dr Brash to take a call\u2014to put up their policy alternatives to match the statistics I have outlined, and let us have a real debate on economic policy. I predict that they will not do that, because they know they will lose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ee00398943546b8bd8cedfa881ebf7b\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af95e717901d41409a815b36a8a0c2ae\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u2014Comment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00228c663ab9d5fb4978a729f930e3a0e915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c663ab9d5fb4978a729f930e3a0e915\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to share with the House a slight dilemma that I have. I heard your comment, after I left the Chamber, that you did not hear me making a particular comment. I have checked with the junior Government whip. I have listened to the tape, which has a number of my interjections quite clearly on it, but not the one complained of. My problem is that it is the view of both Mr English and Dr Cullen that I made a remark. I have no recollection of that; if I did, I withdraw and apologise. I think it is also worth saying that I was probably unfair on Mr English in some of my comments and I apologise for that, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fe5113a690f41f583db18b15741fc5b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member, and there that matter rests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022906b9e13883847529cd4cc586544c206\u0022\u003EDebate on Budget Policy Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002285308943c42e47b1b1329a20ba4a148f\u0022\u003EDebate on Budget Policy Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000315\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00222bc7352a1997448dad7fedc12ee9781f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bc7352a1997448dad7fedc12ee9781f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E That was one of the poorer and more confused speeches I have ever heard from the member for Waimakariri, and quite frankly I was pretty disappointed. I had higher hopes for the member. I see him in action on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but I was very disappointed indeed in that speech. I think when he goes back and reads his Hansard tonight\u2014because he will be the only person in New Zealand reading it\u2014he will reflect on my comments and probably ring me in my office later on this evening with a personal apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EMr Cosgrove spent the entire time telling us, firstly, that National did not have policies; then he told us that National did have policies but that he did not like them. He went on to tell us that New Zealand is doing pretty well in the OECD. Well, I do not want to point out to the member that we are 20th in the world in the OECD\u201420th out of 30 places. We have gone up one place\u2014we have gone past Spain, by a few thousand dollars. We are 20th and the Minister of Finance, Dr Michael Cullen himself, told the Finance and Expenditure Committee that we would have to go a long way before we ever went up from that number again\u2014a long, long way. He said the void was so great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThen the member rolled out Ralph Waters, the Chief Executive Officer of Fletcher Building, and his comments about corporate taxation. Ralph Waters is a very respected chief executive officer in New Zealand, and I think he has done a wonderful job with Fletcher Building, but I simply point out that if that is the best the member can roll out, then I suggest I should deliver to Mr Cosgrove\u2019s office the OECD reports on New Zealand, the IMF reports on New Zealand, and about 3 miles of Treasury reports on New Zealand that counter all the comments he made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe 2004 Budget will be an absolute disgrace for anyone caring about New Zealand, and for anyone wanting higher living standards for New Zealand, because it will deliver one thing, and one thing alone\u2014that is, the tax-and-spend policies of the Labour Parties of old, because this is a desperate Government that is going to spend up big. It is in free fall in the polls. The Minister outlined the Government\u2019s $2.1 billion of new spending. Will it be going to pro-growth initiatives? Will it be going on things to drive productivity in New Zealand? The Government itself admits that productivity is so poor it intends to set up a productivity commission, but the only reason it has not announced the commission is that no one can be found in the private sector who wants to stump up and go on it. That is how hopeless this Government has been. Government members are quiet because they know that that is the truth\u2014I tell Mr Mallard that that is absolutely the truth\u2014and they should go and have a look at why the productivity commission has not been rolled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis Government is going to spend a lot of money, that is for sure; but it will spend it on beneficiaries. This Government should be ashamed that, despite the economic growth that has taken place in this country, we have 300,000 New Zealanders out of work and on a benefit\u2014in spite of the best conditions and in spite of themselves. That is how woeful it has been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe are not going to see pro-growth policies on infrastructure. We are not going to see spending on infrastructure. What we did see was the Minister of Finance jacking up tax rates by 5c in the litre to pay for new roads in Auckland, because the Government wants to spend the money on dishing out more to beneficiaries. That is what the Future Directions package will deliver, and that member knows it very well. The financial markets are so worried that the Bank of New Zealand\u2019s economist came out just 2 days ago and told the Minister in no uncertain terms what is likely to happen\u2014that the Minister\u2019s own over-spending to save this Government in free fall in the polls will be reflected in an increase in interest rates. That is what the financial markets think of this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to point for a moment to the issue of growth. The Government introduced the Budget Policy Statement by giving us some pro-growth statement we were meant to buy into. Let us look at the facts for just one moment. Growth in New Zealand between 1993 and 2003 on a per capita basis was at a rate of 2.4 percent. For every man, woman, and child, this country grew by 2.4 percent. Treasury\u2019s forecast for the next 10 years is an average of less than 2 percent, and by year 10 it is 1.4 percent. Clayton Cosgrove had the audacity to come down here and tell us: \u201CWe are going to do better and be in the top half of the OECD.\u201D, when his own Government has stopped printing the propaganda it used to print. His own Minister is banned from making promises about when we will get there, because he knows, as I know, that to get back into the top half of the OECD any time in the next 10 years will take a growth rate of 4.1 percent per capita. With policies like those of this Government, it does not have a hope in Hades of producing it\u2014not a hope in hell of getting us back into the top half of the OECD, with those growth rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt is not just about the area of tax. Let us look at that area, and speak about it for a moment. The budget for the operating balance excluding revaluations and accounting changes will be around $6 billion\u2014that is, 4 percent of GDP. But have we seen any comment at all about a tax refund for hard-working New Zealanders? No, there has not been a single one. Why should New Zealand families be worried about their tax bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1d3ba0088ea422896525b5d405e56ef\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Give us a quarter of a policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296d38de950cc4915969d9e62f83a2dfe\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Let me point out to the member a little fact that may have eluded him, because he is so tied up in the Labour spin machine. Since 1999, in the 4 years this Government has been in power, every family in New Zealand has spent $2,600 a year more on tax. Every family is worse off because of the policies of this Government, so its members should not tell us they are doing a lot for hard-working families in New Zealand. This Government is doing nothing for those families. It is taking money from the working and productive sector, and buying votes to try to stay in power. That will not work, because the people of New Zealand have seen through the Government\u2019s race-based policies and now they will see through its economic policies. It simply will not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EFor a moment I want to touch on the issue of the exchange rate, because it has been rising against the US dollar. It has caused concern for our exporters, and it was a major part of the Budget Policy Statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ecff130e4b04645a3e6565819597769\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What would that member do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dda265ca0bc4288878da15f61e154d2\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: We would not intervene. Let me tell members about the confused thinking the Minister of Finance, Dr Michael Cullen, has had. He came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee in November and told us he was not without options. The Minister of Finance signalled about five different positions during the course of the next 3 months, but last week came his cr\u00E8me de la cr\u00E8me statement: he told the country through the media that he would intervene through the exchange rate, and that he would do it with a policy similar to that of Australia. Clayton Cosgrove smiles. He knows how ridiculous that is, because he was there when Michael Cullen, while telling the select committee about the Budget Policy Statement, said that it was a hopeless policy, that it did not stop and change the direction, and that it would not do anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to point out just a small fact, because it may have missed the Minister\u2019s attention. At the start of 2003\u2014this relates to the very policy from Australia he wants to follow\u2014Australia\u2019s cash foreign exchange reserves were $30 billion. By the end of last year, in 12 months, they had risen to $40 billion. Australia stole $10 billion, smoothing and intervening\u2014[Interruption] If Mr Peters wants to know why we would not get involved, it is because the mark-to-market loss for Australia was $3.7 billion last year. If New Zealand had had the same policy and the same amount of reserves we would have lost three-quarters of a billion dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215cf522c0d7244f7b92abbde8b5d8b55\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Which country does nothing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073a3afa057940c2b7be3bd4e9e2cf41\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I know that Winston Peters is a lot smarter than that. He can find ways to spend three-quarters of a billion dollars on hard-working New Zealanders in ways that would be better than giving it to the rich guys at the top end of town in foreign exchange markets. That is what the Government wants to do; it would be one of the most retrograde steps our country could see\u2014when Michael Cullen thinks he is the next George Soros. He should focus on building a pro-growth economy for New Zealand, on lowering tax rates, on fixing the Resource Management Act, on fixing occupational health and safety legislation, on keeping Margaret Wilson out of anything that has to do with business, and on scrapping the Employment Relations Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt will be a very disappointing Budget, and a very expensive Budget, for New Zealand. When we look back\u2014just as we were disappointed with Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s speech\u2014we will see that the people of New Zealand were very disappointed with Budget 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022db95c7befc11408b8ff0cc6234b146cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db95c7befc11408b8ff0cc6234b146cc\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E If John Keys, the National spokesperson on finance, said that Mr Cosgrove\u2019s speech was uninteresting, I would think the people of New Zealand who listened to that, if any did, would hear that the National Party\u2019s response to the Budget Policy Statement and the state of the economy is just a joke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f8eaf83312d4361b3f3b23d291a9e31\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7cebb616484ab3ad59a9dc4cba9e9c\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Here is one reason why. He said that this Government would find it hard to get New Zealand\u2019s economy into the top 10 of the OECD. That is absolutely true, but here is the important fact that the National Party has to stare in the mirror about. This Government has had to stop the economy that we inherited from the National Party falling off the OECD tables. We were slipping down, and at least the member had the reasonableness to say that we had moved New Zealand\u2019s economy up. We had to stop New Zealand\u2019s economy falling off the edge of the world. That was the reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIn the context of this Budget Policy Statement\u2014which is, as the introduction states, to advance the Government\u2019s policy programme in a whole range of areas; that is, health, education, growth, innovation, and so on, while maintaining appropriate levels of capital investment\u2014in that context, what is the reality about the New Zealand economy now? Let us look at a few facts, and let them get in the way of our prejudice. Last year New Zealand was one of the best-performing and fastest-growing economies in the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022186a6397dab046129b387b9ec822d3fa\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a8e609e3e14df79ee371ca2d53dad1\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member asks: \u201CWhy?\u201D; he does not deny it, yet we have just heard his speech that said how terrible we all are, when in fact last year the economy of New Zealand was one of the fastest growing in the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4c615d7ab74498aa2cdbba869904241\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79285bc678749b783cda38af2167199\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The first reason is that we have a Government that is interested in economic development. This Government is interested in economic development; the former National Government was interested in economic deconstruction. That is what actually happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI would hate to put the facts in the way of anyone\u2019s prejudice, here, but the second thing is that when that annual growth rate is measured in each quarter for every single region of New Zealand, it shows that every region in New Zealand has registered positive growth for 18 consecutive quarters. There must be a really terrible Government to actually get every region in New Zealand growing for the whole time that it has been in Government, quarter on quarter, on quarter! Is that an accident? Did we just get lucky? We were lucky for 18 consecutive quarters. Gee whiz, does that mean that for 27 consecutive quarters the National Government was unlucky? It was unlucky for 27 quarters on end, and we got real lucky when we were here for 18 consecutive quarters. It does not make sense; nor does the member\u2019s speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe unofficial unemployment rate\u2014just to give the House some more good news\u2014was 4.6 percent in the December 2003 quarter. That was up from 4.4 percent in the previous quarter, but it was still very favourable in terms of every other OECD economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI know we have been celebrating The Lord of the Rings, and I have to say that there is a bit of an irony in that. The front page of the Christchurch Press had a big celebratory thing in relation to the Oscars and The Lord of the Rings. It failed to mention, of course, in all of this celebratory stuff, that successive Governments and the people of New Zealand have paid a fortune for this\u2014and that is fair enough; one could say one could write it off against all the image for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc6cf062095841aaab1f3cd727fd8e6e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Subsidy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237c0b28f89dc4b2fa4c1d28dcb750f36\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! Everyone is celebrating it. But on the front page of the Christchurch Press, right alongside all of what has cost hundreds of millions of dollars, there is a column attacking the $20,000 that was spent on Navman for an investment of $50 million\u2014not a subsidy, but an investment. I had to run that past me again, because over here we are celebrating in full page after full page the hundreds of millions of New Zealand dollars going into a film\u2014and that is good, and we are all celebrating the 11 Oscars; good on us. But $20,000 of investment in Navman to get a $50 million investment; I do not know\u2014wake me up and smell the coffee! I cannot quite see or understand that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIn Christchurch last night I was at the premiere of the musical\u2014and maybe members may eat their hearts out, but I was representing the Prime Minister\u2014Once were Warriors. I tell members quite seriously that I will write a letter\u2014and I was one who was probably pretty sceptical about how what I thought was a pretty violent film, which was a reflection of some elements in New Zealand society could be turned\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a4d34624a04ee7b3374223bee2f076\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a documentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b4144a56068480692f6909d1bc41156\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: But nevertheless, it was pretty harrowing. I found it pretty harrowing. I wondered how on earth a musical could be made out of that. I tell the House that that musical is the most impressive musical I have seen since I saw West Side Story as a kid. It is a West Side Story of New Zealand, written by New Zealanders. The music is written by New Zealanders, the whole thing is by New Zealanders, including its choreography, lyrics, and everything else. Apart from Tina Cross, who is magnificent, the musical is performed by at-risk street kids, M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 together. While the theme is about a very dysfunctional family, and all the rest of it, the thing that comes out of it is the incredible optimism of that story for the future\u2014the cooperation, partnership, caring, and honesty of those kids and everything around them and what they did for New Zealand. I think that it almost should be a commitment on every parliamentarian in this House to see that show. I cannot believe that any member of Parliament could see that show and then talk about division between M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 in this country, or use any kind of racial division to gain some cheap political points. In that musical we have the best of New Zealand, and the worst, warts and all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0707abdc8f2448da4ee44b6d780e1f7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s it on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215cebca64f4401f95beabb0b7c1756c\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is in Christchurch. It is coming to Wellington and it is going to Auckland and Dunedin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215beb91e819f413b9416347fa3e50a5e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister might circulate the dates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a886e13f3d4088be833d20099aeac9\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I will circulate the dates and I will write to every member of Parliament. Last night I spoke for a few minutes on behalf of the Prime Minister and said I would say in Parliament today that I would invite every member of the New Zealand Parliament to see that musical. They would not fail to be moved or extraordinarily proud. I was more proud\u2014and I have to say this, and Peter Jackson can eat his heart out; he will not care anyway; it does not matter to him what I think\u2014however, of that production last night than the Lord of the Rings. Fundamentally, that musical is about New Zealand. It is written by New Zealanders and is about us. It was written magnificently in the first instance, but the musical is tremendous. Jim Moriarty is a hero in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EHere is the thing. I was giving that speech and in the middle of it the kids\u2014and there were dozens of them\u2014suddenly turned around and did the haka. I thought: \u201CWhat have I said?\u201D, but actually Jim Moriarty had just walked up the stairs and was coming in and they were paying tribute to him. He is an icon New Zealander. He is someone who has turned those kids around, and their heads are up. One of the VIP drivers said to me that he had been in with one of the Ministers to see the musical in rehearsal, and the kids were shaking hands with him and their heads were down. They could not look him in the eye. At the time the musical started, the kids had their heads up and when they shook people\u2019s hands they were looking them in the eye. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI say that, because in a sense the Budget and all the stuff around it is about economics, fiscal balances, and everything else; however, the real New Zealand was in Christchurch last night. Those kids were the real New Zealand. They are the future of our country and I think that everything we do here should be done to empower those kids. Fundamentally, they are the future of New Zealand. By the year 2050, 40 percent of our workforce will be of M\u0101ori and Pacific Island extraction. If those kids fail, we fail. That is it. Last night they were getting education credits for their future as they went through that production. I recommend the musical to this House. I interpolate it in a speech in the Budget debate to remind members of the real New Zealand out there and how we have hope and optimism, and we have reason to be hopeful and optimistic after I saw what I saw last night. I hope that members can experience that too in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0c9d957ec234ec3b3ad4d664e35aba0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0c9d957ec234ec3b3ad4d664e35aba0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E If there was ever a time for leadership and vision to unite this country, it is now. Common cause is sought now. This is a budget policy debate about the forgotten people of New Zealand\u2014the ordinary New Zealanders, and I will describe who they are. They are people trying to raise and educate their families in a hostile environment; they are people trying to survive in a low-wage economy as against the First World; they are people trying to survive old age on a low pension in a rising tide of prices, particularly in the urban sector. People in this country are trying to get cancer operations, cataract or hip operations, and they cannot. People are trying to grow exports that are desperately needed in this country\u2019s economy, in a hostile environment of indifference, neglect, and misunderstanding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EUnfortunately this, too, is a case of a Government of sectional interests. It is not a Government for real New Zealanders or all New Zealand. This is a Government made up of people who believe that fiscal drag is a fashion statement and that fiscal updates were legalised along with prostitution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EToday members heard nothing whatsoever from the National Party. Mr Key made it very clear that National would do nothing whatsoever, and repeat the huge mistakes of Ruth Richardson between 1990 and 1993, when she took a party with the biggest majority in this country\u2019s history to a hung Parliament on election night 3 years later. Mr Key has outlined the fact that National has learnt nothing, knows nothing, and will do nothing in an environment where every other First World economy would have Ministers of Finance and Opposition spokespeople who would understand the need for action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe are concerned that there is nothing in the statement before the House today, and that fiscal updates have nothing in respect of an economic vision, or any plan for this country\u2019s future. We are on a slide to the Third World and every member of this Parliament knows that. Any economist who knows anything about the international stage knows it as well. There is nothing here to arrest our slide into the Third World, because we are spending more overseas than we earn. The answer is not to be found in a mixture of massive immigration\u2014that is National\u2019s policy as well\u2014it is not to be found in social engineering, and it is not to be found in political correctness. Through those disastrous policies, the Government has created a consumer-driven economy, and a consumptive economy, not a productive one, based on rising house prices, and a retail shopping frenzy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe real economy is being strangled by a high dollar. I want to show members a graph of how things have been since 1986 until 2004. The graph shows the figures under National, all the way until New Zealand First got control of the Treasury benches back in 1996. There is the huge drop. That is why New Zealand had a massive economic recovery. It is all in the graphs. Labour gets back in power in 2001, and the graph is going through the roof again. The absolute tragedy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4bad539fdb94ff48c5bb938076456f9\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What did you do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200485edc4fea4ecf8917c1612a3c8a13\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I shall tell Mr Key what I did. We changed the Budget Policy Statement in October 1996, and the dramatic turn-round began shortly after. The graph shows members what happened. However, there is Labour, supported by National, on an indifferent, apathetic policy that sees our dollar now going through the roof. The charts are all there. There are the alarm bells. It is 2003, and even then we could see the dollar going past 54c, and Labour did, and will do, nothing. For 14 long years, when Don Brash was in charge of that sort of policy at the Reserve Bank, he did absolutely nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EOf course, Don Brash is famous. All the problems of this country are based on M\u0101ori indulgence and demand upon the public purse! I shall ask members a question. Do they remember when the Bank of New Zealand was in a terrible mess and we bailed it out twice with billions of dollars? Don Brash was in charge of prudential supervision of the Reserve Bank in respect of the Bank of New Zealand. What did he do against those cheats and fraudsters? He did not even raise a finger, and he was in charge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt is easy to blame M\u0101ori, but what about those friends of his, and financial backers of the National Party? That is his track record, and by his record, members will know him. Exporters are in meltdown. They are going to the wall. The floods of this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ecbb8939f5a433b8efd51a4f56964af\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I apologise to the member for interrupting. However, I have noted that the senior Opposition whip was on the phone, and other experienced members are not present. I think there is a clear implication in the member\u2019s speech that there were financial reasons for the National Party not intervening in the Reserve Bank. That is a very serious accusation for the member to make\u2014that, effectively, the National Party was taking money not to intervene as appropriate. I think that that should not be allowed to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254606f89fc5f4f92a7e1d76fe6b79e78\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I think the point of order being raised by Mr Mallard ranks as about the worst a member could do. Mr Peters had made no such statements\u2014a National Party person would have raised it if he had. Instead, we have a bogus point of order. The statements made by Mr Mallard are completely out of order. He has stood up, pretending to be supporting the National Party, then accusing the National Party of financial impropriety over the collapse of the BNZ. That is ludicrous because the BNZ collapsed under the Labour Government when Mr Mallard was in charge. I will certainly not reply by suggesting innuendos against that Labour Government, because I was a member of it, too. [Interruption] No. I am saying this very seriously. I am raising a very serious point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbc5986a21424d66981d940339f7cacf\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fac5e82f61b446e98e42660b22d3450\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will not be seated. I have not finished my point of order, and I am entitled to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e292e23c0c4b36bc3b18ebcf78a3c2\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard Mr Prebble\u2019s point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bc703ced14b498f808e22bb84c41597\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: No, you have not heard my point of order, Madam Speaker. I wish to be heard upon it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241e08488e30b40ad870c022ca55628d7\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a03acb511cf4aca8b1d9b4079f870ce\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: No. This is outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ec2810da05f43c285c3936e85621935\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I have heard your point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233aa90cf60fc490a96f13200f71ad12c\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: You have not heard my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002251b6c66036cb4be5ae4f870509e51e98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251b6c66036cb4be5ae4f870509e51e98\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Prebble that I will warn him once only. I am on my feet and the member does not interrupt while I am speaking. I have heard the member\u2019s point of order. I accept his point of order. I am ruling in that way. I believe that there was not a point of order, and I agree with the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5a7d32468e748dcb2874194fb65f1a2\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292bc6b60b63a449e8f7a8c5cafd4277f\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226059e452ddc44421841e4fa3fe915cfc\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on this point of order. That is the finish of the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af8f7e39b7c64afba6711fa281e2976b\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I am raising a new point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d77ac6902d6488ea3894b62cf1b3af8\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is raising a new point of order, he may raise the new point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227593aba1bb31472fbeab7c9d5c734a0a\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Who is getting the call? It should be my turn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d5831279f240ad82028ea11bc9f047\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Richard Prebble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204bfefaca8f643ef955a9620c976a466\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: My new point of order is that a member who breaks up a speech of this sort in that way not only should be asked to withdraw and apologise, but I believe should be again sent from the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76c170a33d249eabda34daf0d7a14de\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly what I was going to say. As a member for New Zealand First, listening very carefully to what Mr Peters has to say, I believe there was nothing in the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2019 speech that came close to the comment being made by Mr Mallard. He has already been ejected from the House once today. I suggest that you eject him again, and for the rest of the day, after he has withdrawn and apologised. He is a disgrace to this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022171fdc75ed7f495796c49f059f8a5fe2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Notwithstanding the lack of orders to that effect, I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6f3075f4b654925916a1905c357220d\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e45c0af528d47b9a92dbcdfd9b6a105\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We have dealt with this point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f80df92a01b462f9f4da046a5ce5ca4\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: This is a new point of order. The fact is that other than you saying that you would rule in that way, a request has been made now by Mr Prebble, and stated more specifically by Mr Jones, that this is one of the most disgraceful points of order, particularly coming from a senior Cabinet Minister, that this House can have. All that has happened now is, having made the statement and denigrated the National Party, put it on record, the member now has just had a quiet \u201CI withdraw and apologise.\u201D That is not good enough. This needs to be dealt with quite severely, and the request and suggestion has been made to you that he be asked to leave the Chamber for the rest of the day, and I urge you to do so; otherwise this whole thing will lead to disorder. It is not appropriate and not acceptable in this Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca47ca1a4fa84b098d770ce843be5359\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has withdrawn and apologised. The matter is dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253ae6d881be345a48366d19be2817c22\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, the future of this country and its people cannot be left to international currency speculators\u2014those people worshipped and adored by the National Party and its bankers. Mr Key said he would do nothing. Mr Brash said he would do nothing. We, thoroughly exposed to currency fluctuations, have a Reserve Bank obsessed with Auckland house prices and inflation; and all of the rest of the economy in provincial New Zealand is paying for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270cea46ca7bc42688c97a5ce41637ed5\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Name me one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef466ba05a4424fbde00067193f46d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Key that the official cash rate in America is today 1 percent. What is ours? Why, it is 5 percent. Let me tell the Government that New Zealand First would support any move to shelter the Kiwi dollar at a lower level, and still leave room for serious investment here. Most economies act against the highs and the lows of currency fluctuations. Look at this investigation by the Finance and Expenditure Committee of the Minister of Finance. Read the questions there from other members and see how inert and hopeless it is in the face of an exporters\u2019 crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022873f02b896594054a7abd332ff2d0fc1\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Name one country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aaa117106634fc7bc4774b6bfabb1c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Every country, except one\u2014New Zealand. New Zealand is the unique one. [Interruption] I tell Mr Keys to get it right. Mr Keys said to name one country; I said every country does\u2014but New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec85b82ca834b48820e19f84ab3d5d5\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Name one that works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc8d77caf61245388e169763012b203e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Now he changes the subject. Now he says to name one that works. Ireland, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia\u2014there is a recovery, if ever I saw one. Mr Soros was shut out. I tell Mr Keys not to come back to New Zealand from the halcyon markets of other people\u2019s money, and tell us who have run an economy how to run an economy. I tell members this: one half of the B team sneaked into Tauranga today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224138789eb01845888825522a6e70fcbd\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Who was that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5bf447f851b4ca791afc70c520a030a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot say. He had a telephone-booth meeting, and tried to emulate the incumbent\u2019s meeting in the Tauranga Red Square. The head economic puritan is not even speaking in this debate today. The B-team has swung back to the mad monetarism that nearly destroyed us in the 1980s and early 1990s. One half of the B team sneaked into Tauranga today, and had a telephone-booth meeting, so the B team is minus a B. I guess that makes them B-. They will be minus a whole lot of Bs before the next election is over. After listening to Labour and National today, it is obvious that there is only one party that is prepared to take a stand on behalf of all New Zealanders, and not just its narrow group of supporters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI tell Mr Key that Mr Brash can go to the Rotary Club, he can bore New Zealanders witless, he can go around stirring up apathy\u2014but make no bones, we know all about politics in this party, and within 6 months their charts and polls will be humbug. We all know that. This man cannot sustain that sort of inertia and boredom. The people of Tauranga deserve better\u2014not someone who is an example\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235eb3ad9ae8c4faf86d82b1a616ff318\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very true statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202ef1f167589449abf8438bdbe577686\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: All right. Here is my challenge to Mr Key and his colleagues. Mr Brash says National will put up a high-profile candidate in Tauranga. I tell them to go ahead and put Don Brash up. We will have a showdown. Come on\u2014bring on Don Brash and we will see what the people of Tauranga think of Don Brash and his policies on age care, on 70 years for the retirement age, on reducing retirement funding payments, on privatising hospitals, on privatising schools, on user-pays in roading, and every mad monetarist ACT policy. The president of the ACT party described him\u2014not my words\u2014as the ninth ACT party member. The ACT party call him the ninth ACT party member. Great news! My challenge to the National Party is to send Don Brash along to Tauranga and see what happens. I tell members this: if I cannot beat a man whom Gary Knapp beat twice, I will resign. If I cannot beat a man whom Gary Knapp beat twice, I will give up\u2014and rightly so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELet me ask the question of National: is Don Brash coming to contest Tauranga? No. I say to stop bluffing the National supporters. As for the press gallery people, I tell them to stop wasting everybody\u2019s time, because in 6 months\u2019 time those of us who see politics like an instamatic picture know that as the picture emerges, National will be in the doldrums again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u002225f6dae038ed47e89840e6779f7256e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225f6dae038ed47e89840e6779f7256e6\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to begin by thanking all those organisations that made submissions to the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Labour Government\u2019s Budget Policy Statement. My gratitude even extends to Business New Zealand because, by and large, its submission serves to remind me that, given half a chance, it would take New Zealand in exactly the wrong direction in terms of where it should be going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EFor example, Business New Zealand pointed out its opposition to four pieces of legislation passed in this term: the Local Government Act, ratification of the Kyoto Protocol, the Supreme Court Act, and the Land Transport Act. These were all supported by the Greens, and in two cases were passed only because of our votes. Business New Zealand\u2019s call for a cut in the corporate tax rate to 20 percent fails to acknowledge both the obligation that the business community has to society, and the extensive services that the Government provides the business community with in return. It also conveniently ignores the corporate welfare that businesses receive through the support that the Government is obliged to provide low and middle income workers through, for example, the accommodation supplement, tax credits, family support, and childcare subsidies, because too many businesses do not pay their workers enough to live on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThere are even some things where the Greens and Business New Zealand share a common view. One in particular is our joint opposition to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. We also broadly agree on the need for the Government to reduce its debt levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EHowever, the Greens share a lot more in common with a number of other submitters. In particular I mention the Public Health Association, Barnardos, Caritas, the Save the Children Fund, Unicef, Action for Children and Youth Aotearoa, the Refugee and Migrant Service, the New Zealand University Students Association, the Downtown Community Ministry, and the National Council of Women. There was a consistent message coming through from those frontline organisations, which have to bear the brunt of the negative impacts of harsh Government policies. I am grateful that for several years they have balanced the pro - free market submissions of the business lobby, and have helped to pressure the Government to properly address child poverty in New Zealand. Like the Greens, they have high hopes that the Government has finally listened to their pleas, with Dr Cullen\u2019s announcement that the centrepiece of this year\u2019s Budget will be a Future Directions package that will, in his own words, \u201Cgive priority to low- and middle-income families, enhancing their living standards and their ability to give their children real opportunity and security.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ETime and time again, we have said that a Budget surplus is not real if it is built on the backs of children living in poverty. It is an indictment on all of us, but particularly on Labour members, who, despite their history of standing up for the poor and the downtrodden, have taken 4 years to decide that the time is right to tackle seriously the fact that 30 percent of New Zealand\u2019s children are living in poverty. It may be financially prudent to do as the Minister says and wait for good economic and fiscal conditions before increasing income support and incentives to move into paid work, as well as making housing more affordable, but it is socially irresponsible to have waited as long as this. It is also socially irresponsible and downright discriminatory to penalise children because of the income source of their parents or caregivers. Yet, despite the strong submissions from all the social service and welfare organisations that the child tax credit be available to all families below the appropriate income threshold, Dr Cullen remains determined to penalise the children of beneficiaries and superannuitants. That earned a rare unanimous rebuke from the multiparty Finance and Expenditure Committee. Not known for our unanimity, we all agreed that while we do support incentives to move people from welfare to employment, the Future Directions package should ensure that \u201C\u2026 appropriate assistance is also made available to children who are dependent on a sole parent, superannuitant, or beneficiary,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThe Greens are adamant that the Government must remove the discriminatory aspects of the family assistance packages. If Helen Clark were serious about funding services on a basis of need, then the one in four children in New Zealand whose parents or caregivers rely on a benefit or superannuation would no longer be excluded from the child tax credit. Michael Cullen repeated today that this Government is committed to needs-based regulation; this is his chance to make his rhetoric a reality. Although the payment is only a maximum of $15 a week per child, it could make a real difference to the quality of life and material well-being of those children. It would also lift the morale of those families who are dependent on the State. At the moment the message they get is that the Government thinks it is sufficient for single parents with one child to live on $231.53 a week, or $14,500 a year before tax, but if parents are in paid employment, it is OK for them to earn $30,000 and receive that tax credit\u2014a tax credit that single parents on the benefit are not eligible for. We believe it is unconscionable that the Government deems that one child deserves a better start in life than another child, especially when we are talking about a quarter of this country\u2019s children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIt also raises the concern that the Government will increase its targeting mechanisms in the Future Directions package. Make no mistake: the Greens are all for reducing the poverty trap so that beneficiaries do not face a drop in income when they enter or return to the workforce, but there are real problems with the targeted system currently in place. The evidence shows that the move to targeting has not increased the welfare of the poorest in our society but has instead enabled successive Governments to keep tax rates low for the well-off. Targeting mechanisms are costly to administer, as well, and they are often so complicated that many families in need do not apply. The current family support package has serious problems, with families incurring large debts because they underestimate their annual family income and, therefore, receive too much assistance. This estimation of income is particularly difficult for low-income parents who may work several jobs in a year because they are forced to undertake casual work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThat is why we are promoting a universal child benefit, and why we are looking for support from members in the House for Sue Bradford\u2019s member\u2019s bill, which is currently on the Order Paper. This universal benefit is similar to the old family benefit, which would have provided many of the MPs in this House with a real start to life by, in many cases, enabling their parents to buy their first family home. Several other countries have maintained universal benefits throughout the new-right period\u2014even the United Kingdom. Its child benefit is worth approximately $47 per week for the first child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EAs well as calling for the end to discrimination against children, the submission of the Public Health Association highlighted that about one-third of all hospital admissions could be avoided if more funding was specifically invested in health\u2014that is, in preventing illness. We agree. We also support the concern of the association that avoidable hospital admissions of M\u0101ori are 60 percent higher than those of other New Zealanders, and that those of Pacific people are 70 percent higher. I asked the submitters whether those rates could be reduced if the health system adopted Dr Brash\u2019s colour-blind approach. In a very thoughtful answer, Dr Gay Keating said that while focusing solely on socio-economic factors would have a significant impact on reducing admission rates, there was also an indisputable ethnic factor. In other words, M\u0101ori of the same socio-economic status as P\u0101keh\u0101 are more likely to be admitted to hospital for illnesses that could be avoided. That puts paid to the rubbish coming from the National Opposition that ethnicity should not be a factor when addressing needs. If we are serious about ensuring equal opportunity, then whatever criteria that work must be applied to ensure that outcomes are fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI am glad that the Labour Government continues to recognise this reality, but I am surprised to have just listened to the Minister for Economic Development, Jim Anderton, refuse to acknowledge some home truths about the New Zealand economy. The Government\u2019s accounts may look good, but the rest of the economy is struggling. Dr Cullen may feel like the king in his counting house, counting all his money\u2014whether in cash or on paper\u2014but, outside, people are feeling the squeeze. Workers, bosses, and farmers are all struggling, largely because of the high dollar. Jim Anderton, when he was in Opposition, used to highlight important economic indicators like the trade deficit, the current account deficit, and the national debt, but today there was not a word about those. I would like to offer a reality check to this House. This country\u2019s national debt is now over $102 billion. Our current account deficit is forecast to rise to $7.3 billion this year, $8.5 billion next year, and $8.6 billion for the 3 years after that. The January trade deficit was $571 million\u201428 percent of exports. The trade deficit for the year was $3,622 million, the largest since records began in 1961.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand economy is sick. The New Zealand economy is unsustainable. A cynical view is that the Future Directions package is more about trying to pump up a sagging economy and shore up Labour\u2019s core support in the lead-up to the election, than a heartfelt commitment to helping the less well-off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022084313bd72df41d8a8783ffcb965bb53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022084313bd72df41d8a8783ffcb965bb53\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Budget Policy Statement for this year. It is a statement that is presented by the Government, looked at by a select committee, then debated. It is a matter of regret that we have stopped having debates in this House. What we get instead is a series of statements that are nothing to do with what was held before, and people do not even have the decency to at least debate what has been put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI would like briefly to debate all the comments made in this debate. Mr Rod Donald from the Green Party put forward the proposition that we should take the $6 billion surplus and spend it all on children and, in particular, on benefits. He said that we should do that because\u2014and he is quite right\u2014there is a growing number of children who are in benefit families. It is a great shame that the Green Party does not take any interest in economics. If it did, its members would realise that people\u2014even their supporters\u2014respond to incentives. If we were to follow his advice, we would have more people in benefit-led families. As he just eloquently told us, those people who are on benefits do not enjoy a good standard of living; they actually end up in dependency. If the Greens ever do end up in power\u2014and at the moment the Labour Party\u2019s only prospect of being in Government is to be with that extreme-left group\u2014we will have a New Zealand in which more and more New Zealanders are on benefits. Somehow, he tells us, that would be a sounder economy. It is a shame he does not know any of the history of the last 50 years. The countries that have followed the advice he suggests are in terrible shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen we had Mr Peters making a vitriolic attack on Mr Brash. We discovered why: apparently, Mr Brash visited Tauranga. Well, so what? But then Mr Peters put forward a rather novel notion. He said that when he was Treasurer, he drove down the dollar. I thought to myself, I wonder who the Governor of the Reserve Bank was when the dollar reached 39c, and did that governor intervene? We all know that Don Brash was the governor at that point. When Mr Peters\u2014who now tells us that Don Brash was a 14-year failure\u2014was Treasurer, did he replace the Governor of the Reserve Bank? Did he make any changes to Reserve Bank policy? Of course he did not. That had to be one of the sillier speeches made by Mr Peters. The other statements that he put together showed that what might have had an influence on economic policy was his being economically  illiterate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWe had a contribution from Mr Anderton, who told us that we should go to a musical\u2014Once Were Warriors. No doubt, it is a moving musical. Of course, Mr Anderton apparently can watch the whole of that musical without realising that it was written by a Mr Alan Duff, and without realising that Mr Duff is making a protest against the sort of social welfarism that Mr Anderton and Mr Rod Donald put forward, and is pointing out that it has put M\u0101ori into a terrible poverty trap. Mr Anderton watched the whole musical and missed the entire point of the musical, the book, and the film! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffe2c0dc11f6446b8b7d9b9642446a93\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: That was the real New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229591721a151947a596058aebe3f3c3a5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: And that was real New Zealand! Then we had contributions by Mr Key and by Clayton Cosgrove, who argued about the country\u2019s economy. Let me try to make a contribution there. Mr Cosgrove said that the economy grew well last year\u2014which is true\u2014and took total credit for it. Then Mr Key said that perhaps there might be some other reasons, and pointed out something that Mr Cosgrove did not get around to mentioning\u2014that one of the things the Budget Policy Statement does is project what growth there will be. I make the point to the whole House that the growth that the Government gets has been inherited. Where do those policies come from? If we look at the OECD, an independent source, we find that in December last year the OECD said that the economic growth in New Zealand at the moment goes all the way back to the reforms that happened in the 1980s and early 1990s\u2014under Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson. That was what the OECD stated, and I invite the member to read that report. I ask the same member whether he accepts the policy projections that are in that document. [Interruption] He does? That is progress. If he decides to read it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924edf3ccbb54b36a0a104e5bc5b16cf\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Growth to 1.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252559da5456143f097673cc9844ee971\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Key is absolutely right. Treasury predicts that economic growth will fall, and states that it will actually fall, under the policies introduced by this Government, to 1.5 percent. The Government cannot be happy with that. [Interruption] Well, I do not think the Minister has actually read the policy statement, because growth is the priority of his own Government. It sees its most important task as building the conditions for increasing New Zealand\u2019s long-term sustainable rate of economic growth. The Government is failing in its own target of lifting economic growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHow can that be? I suspect that it is because the policies this Government is introducing do not assist growth. Let us have a look at some of the policy statements. The most recent, a decision that is clearly productivity reducing, is to give everyone another week\u2019s leave. Even Mr Cunliffe can work out that if we were to do that, it would affect productivity by 2 percent. That is a measure done by this Government. But lower production will also lower the utilisation of capital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen there is the question of tax rates. We have had a bit of debate about that. Our Minister of Finance likes to point out that the tax cuts under National did not result in an increase in productivity. Therefore, he says, tax cuts do not work. There might be another answer, might there not? Those two tax cuts made by National were targeted at lower-income families, something this Government says it will do, again. Given what we now know, tax cuts having been done twice, does anybody in the House think that such a tax cut, when the Government does it in the Budget, will improve productivity? Well, does it matter? This Government says that its No. 1 economic goal is to increase economic growth, yet it will introduce a tax cut that\u2014as the Government itself knows\u2014is the politics of redistribution, not the politics of growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIt is worth asking the House why growth and prosperity are important. It is simply that\u2014and it is something that even Mr Peters grasps\u2014one cannot have a first-class education system or health system without a first-class economy. It is also worth noting that the $6 billion surplus\u2014a huge amount of money\u2014came from taxpayers. The vast majority of taxes in this country are paid by middle-income New Zealanders. If this Government really wants to get the economy going and to have some fairness, we should have a tax cut aimed at middle-income New Zealanders. I say to National that a tax of 30c in the dollar is a good move, but it will not cut it. We should look at what the McLeod report stated. The Government paid $1 million for it, and I understand that Dr Cullen threw it at the wall, asking why he had paid $1 million to get a report that he could have got free from the ACT party. That report told him that if he wants to improve the economy, he has to cut the taxes of the people who invest in and grow the economy, and a flat rate of tax is best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say to the Government that if it is serious about wanting to improve growth and productivity\u2014and it knows it ought to\u2014it should give that $6 billion of taxpayers\u2019 money back to the people who own it, and they are the taxpayers. If one finds a purse full of dollars in the middle of the road, one gives it back to the owner. This Government finds itself with Treasury\u2019s purse bursting with money. Why do we not give it back to the owners? The great advantage of that is we would get economic growth and prosperity, and the sort of New Zealand that most members of this House actually want to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00223e858a2653d94b63a9d054c2ec113182\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e858a2653d94b63a9d054c2ec113182\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted that the Budget Policy Statement signals that financial assistance for low and middle-income families, to enhance their living standards and improve opportunities and security for their children, will be the centrepiece of this year\u2019s Budget. I was both surprised and delighted that when presenting evidence to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, the Minister of Finance, Dr Cullen, advised that once it is fully rolled out and implemented, this assistance would total more than $1 billion per annum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAssistance at that level, if skilfully delivered, has the potential to make an enormously positive contribution to the income, and therefore to the welfare, of hundreds of thousands of New Zealand families. United Future is 1,000 percent behind the initiative. We cannot afford as a nation to continue blindly down a pathway that sees an estimated 20 to 25 percent of our children living in relative poverty. In my view, it should remain a central goal of our nation to put our children first. We need to ensure that each and every child in this country\u2014regardless of ethnicity, the level of parental income, or even the source of that income\u2014is provided with the opportunity to receive world-class health-care and educational opportunities during the transition from infancy to adulthood. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThat goal should be at the top of the list, because it represents the cumulative aspiration of all of those who have come to New Zealand over the centuries\u2014namely, that of a brighter future for their children. I see no reason why the total elimination of child poverty should not be achievable in New Zealand, and the Future Directions package will hopefully have that outcome. In addition to the benefits to children themselves, the package also represents an investment in the future of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe Future Directions package may appear in the Budget as Government expenditure, but in reality it is a social and economic investment. I am hopeful that the package will take into account the number of children who are dependent on each family\u2019s income, provide clear incentives to favour paid employment over welfare, and iron out the appalling mess that we inherited from the 1991 benefit cuts, in relation to effective marginal tax rates arising from a very badly-thought-through abatements regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe 1991 benefit cuts adopted a slash-and-burn approach, which has produced some woefully perverse outcomes. For example, in some circumstances, the optimal income point for a family arises when the breadwinner works 20 hours a week. A worker is not a single cent better off until he or she works 50 hours a week. Likewise, people re-entering the workforce find that in net terms\u2014particularly when account is taken of costs arising from transport and clothing, etc.\u2014they are worse off than if they had stayed on the benefit. Such anomalies and disincentives must not be allowed to continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI hope also that the package will include those people who are caring for children, but who are not, for one reason or another, actively involved in the paid workforce. For example, a group that has hitherto been neglected is grandparents raising grandchildren. If they are superannuitants, then even though they have taken on that responsibility for the sake of their grandchildren, they are ineligible for support from the Government. That needs to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to make a statement about why I believe it is important that we look at this Future Directions package and give additional support to low and middle-income families in this country. The package is based on a fundamental principle of social justice\u2014that people should be able to fittingly support themselves and their dependants from the wages they earn. That is a goal of social justice. We all know that people are paid as individuals\u2014and that is right, because they are paid for the work they do. But it is also true that having earned a pay packet, some people look after just themselves, while others are faced with the necessity of supporting perhaps a spouse and one or more dependent children. Therefore, it is very important that we look at ways and means of ensuring that they also can achieve that goal of care for their dependants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThere was a speech earlier from the Hon Richard Prebble\u2014and I think John Key mentioned it, too\u2014about the need to cut income tax rates. Consistent with the principle I have outlined, I would like once again to commend to the House United Future\u2019s policy concerning income splitting for families. That would reduce tax rates dramatically for people in the middle and higher-income brackets of New Zealand, but would do so based on the criterion they are in a partnership with another human being\u2014a man and a woman raising children, which is the most important job that we can do on this earth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s exporting capacity has now reached a most critical point. Our trade deficit for 2003 was three times higher than in 2002. Our trade deficit for January was the highest monthly total since 1986. The Budget Policy Statement forecasts an increase in the current account deficit from 3.9 percent of gross domestic product in 2003 to 6 percent by 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EA lot of print and airwave space has been so far taken up in discussing the rapid appreciation of the New Zealand dollar against the US dollar, and there has been an almost ad nauseam debate about whether there is anything either the Minister of Finance or the Governor of the Reserve Bank can do about it. A lot of this represents huff and puff. The reality is that the value of the US dollar reflects events in the USA, and any action the Government takes is unlikely to alter that reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWhy do we not all accept that and concentrate on doing something constructive to rescue our perilous exporting situation? I believe there are a number of things that the Government can, and therefore should, do as a matter of urgency. These include abandoning the idea of recovering some $12 million in border security costs from exporters, providing accelerated depreciation allowances for tax purposes on all plant and machinery that is used principally to produce exports, and using a Buy New Zealand Made campaign to reduce imports. I am amazed that New Zealanders buy imported pet food, biscuits, barbeque fuel, cheese, coal, and even timber. Let us appeal to their patriotism and ask them to buy New Zealand made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe need to continue our efforts to add value prior to export, particularly in products such as timber; to upskill and train people in international marketing; to end policy blockages that are unnecessarily forcing up the cost of electricity\u2014and I particularly refer to the urgent need to overhaul the Conservation Act so that hydroelectricity schemes can go ahead\u2014and to widen the scope of infrastructure bonds to fund such initiatives as irrigation on the Canterbury plains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe Government also needs to continue to pursue vigorously the Doha round of trade liberalisation negotiations in agricultural products, and to conclude free-trade agreements with China, the USA, and others, as quickly as possible. Dr Michael Cullen has signalled that the Budget will address a number of these, and similar, issues. I urge the Government to make that a matter of priority. We must never overlook the fact that the continuance of our essential health and educational services\u2014a point the Hon Richard Prebble has also made\u2014is dependent on strong, productive, vigorous, and growing farming and business communities, and especially on the private sector\u2019s exporting capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EFinally, I will say a few words about general taxation. United Future continues, in complete harmony with the business sector of this country, to argue for a reduction in the company tax rate from the present 33 percent to 30 percent\u2014the rate that presently applies in Australia. Comparability with Australia is, however, only part of the equation. A more important goal, in my mind, is to encourage capital investment in productive enterprises within New Zealand. Our nation\u2019s savings, such as they are, are still concentrated in owner-occupied and rental housing. People do need somewhere to live, but we have gone a long way beyond that basic requirement in New Zealand and have made housing a preferred investment for many New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHowever, priority needs to be given to the productive part of our economy, and a reduction in the corporate tax rate would, I believe, attract more investment and capital accumulation into our all-important productive sector. It would immediately lower the cost of capital for our companies by raising the after-tax return to investors. I continue to hope that the Government might yet begin to listen to United Future\u2019s advocacy in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002246ee6001fa614e80beb2eb3e5d9a0e75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246ee6001fa614e80beb2eb3e5d9a0e75\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I should say to Mr Copeland as he takes his seat that the Government always listens very closely to all the good ideas that come from United Future. We are working on one together at the present time, in the form of the Families Commission. We are a listening Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283251b173dcb424cabe8b956c435e681\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but I remind members that running commentaries are out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b823e8e0a57c4a578c0d71c48241f5d6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The report card for this Government that comes through from the Budget Policy Statement is very good. It tells us we have growth in the economy. We have companies doing things they could not do in the 1990s\u2014that is, grow and employ people in their firms. On the social side we are able to report that in almost every measure we are better housed, better educated, healthier\u2014one after another, we can tick off the social progress we are making, and it is reflected in this Budget Policy Statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EPrior to this Government coming to power in 1999\u2014I refer back to the period that people like Rodney Hide, a supposed economist, would tell us was the heyday of the kinds of policies he stands for\u2014we were performing as an economy below the OECD average. We are often told this was just bad luck. It went on year after year after year, but the National Government was the unluckiest Government. Right through the 1990s, year after year, its luck just did not change. It seemed to not be able to get above that OECD average. With all the good things it was doing, nothing seemed to change. In 1999, National tells us, luck changed. National says that we were an extraordinarily lucky Government, and that if we really want to say why things have been so good, we should say that the 1980s and 1990s policies of Rogernomics, Ruthonomics, etc. were the policies that really laid the foundation for the growth. I have to say that that is just absolute nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EIn 1999, the thing that changed was the Government, and the changes were the changes in the policies the country followed. Instead of just running the kind of free-market, neo-liberal policies that someone like John Key wants to run, we had an interventionist Government that maintained an open trading market economy, but was prepared to do the things to make that economy profitable\u2014employing people, growing firms, and growing the economy. That was the change. It was not luck, but a change to the kinds of policies that people on this side of the House had been arguing for, frankly, right through the 1980s Rogernomics era and through the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThere is one last statistic worth leaving with the House. People who argue against these policies say they want to return us to the top half of the OECD and that we would do it by returning to those very policies we have left behind. The fact of life is that the last time we were in the top half of the OECD was 1985. We introduced the kinds of policies these people wanted. We dropped below the OECD average and stayed there until we changed them again, and then we went above it. When we approach this kind of debate, let us talk about what works, not what is supposed to work. People like Mr Key are the kinds of theorists and academics who like to say: \u201CBy God, the model would work if we would just go further.\u201D We should go a little further, says the academic Mr John Key, who is out of touch with the real world. He says: \u201CIf you just go a little further, you would get this kind of growth.\u201D I am saying to him that he should stay in his cloistered, academic gown, hopelessly out of touch with the real economy. He should carry on doing that, and on this side of the House we will spend our time on policy that really works. We are in touch with reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we were left with in 1999, as a result of the failed policies of people like Mr John Key, was a social deficit. One of the things that that National Government would not do was invest in social issues, because it said we should get the economy right first, and then all the social investment could take place. It was a case of \u201CDrive the engine\u201D\u2014unfortunately the Government could not get out of first gear\u2014\u201Cand once we have got up to full speed, we will start paying for health and education, and all those social investments.\u201D Unfortunately, that Government not only failed to drive the economy but also left us with a social deficit in housing, health, and education. There was a lack of spending and investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe OECD said something very interesting the other day. We need to understand, it said, that if we do not have social development, we do not get economic development. In other words, it comes first, it said. We have to have a healthy, educated population. Otherwise, we do not have the foundation for the kind of modern economy we are trying to form. So what has this Government done? In the last 4 years we have begun to re-invest in social areas. We have invested in childcare, we have invested in early childhood education, and we have invested in schools, universities, and polytechs. We have invested in the health system, in housing, and in families. It has been for the last 4 years an absolute revelation for the country to finally have back a group of people who understand that investing in people is the first step towards getting the kind of future we want for this country. It has been signalled that in this Budget we will carry on with that pattern of investment in jobs, health, education, housing, families, and children. It will be another Budget for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003ESpecifically, as Mr Copeland just pointed out, one of the major features of this Budget will run under the title of Future Directions\u2014it will be called something different by the time we get there, but it is running under that title right now. The Ministry of Social Development has been leading that policy development for the last couple of years. Members will remember that during a previous term we said that in this term we would have a major focus on these kinds of issues, and we are going to do that in this particular Budget. I am delighted to hear United Future members, on the back of the discussion they had with Dr Cullen at the select committee, saying they fully support what they are hearing. They are hearing that four key things will happen in that package. One is that we will be having a look at the level of income of working families and other low-income families in this country. We are going to say to those families that it is time they got a share of what is going on in this country\u2019s growing prosperity. We want to make sure they feel better off when they go to work, that there is money in their pocket, that they feel their kids are well fed, and that there is enough money coming into the house. We will begin addressing that issue in even greater clumps in this Budget. We have done it before with income-related rents. We have increased incomes, but in this Budget we intend to go further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWe intend to have a look at affordable housing. We have said that is our second bit. We want to make sure that we do have affordable housing, particularly in areas like Auckland and Nelson, where people have found a lot of housing pressure driving up the costs of housing. We want to address that kind of issue. We want, thirdly, to make work pay. It must pay people to take that step into work. It is not an ideological thing; it is a practical thing. If people go to work and find suddenly that the cost of transport, feeding the kids, and making sure someone is around to look after them after school takes up all their wages, they begin to drift back into the benefit system. Work must pay. It must put money in people\u2019s pockets, and in this Budget we want to make sure we are doing something about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EFourthly, we have said we want to simplify the benefit system. When benefits were changed in 1991 and people\u2019s incomes were reduced by about 30 percent and they were expected to live on that and could not\u2014the food bank industry came from the cuts from Jenny Shipley and the National Party\u2014even that Government could not sustain them, and it had to introduce other tiers of the benefit system. We now have a three-tiered, complicated mess of a benefit system that we want to begin seriously changing at this Budget time and over the next 3 years, so that we finish up with essentially a single benefit system with people having additions to their benefit for their specific circumstances. So we will see those changes start then. We are targeting this assistance. The National Party and the ACT party would like tax cuts. They want trickle-up. They want to give out the money in tax cuts\u2014they want to tell people who are well off that they can have another $160 a week, and tell people who are getting an average income that they can have 19c a week. That is what we figured out Dr Brash was operating on. We are not going to do that. We are going to make sure this money is focused on low-income families so that they get the money, the kids get the money, and they get the money to go to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThat is where we are going to put our money, and I know what New Zealanders will want. How would the country pay for what Dr Brash wants\u2014tax cuts? I guess one of the things he has told us already is that it will be superannuation cuts. He has already signalled heavily to older New Zealanders that superannuation cuts are coming. He has already warned people that if they are under 50 they should get ready for these kinds of cuts. They will happen. People should not trust the National Party. They have to find money from somewhere, they are saying, to be able to pay for these tax cuts for the rich, and they will take it out of superannuation. But, by extension, it is coming out of social services\u2014the old place. People should look for it to come out of health, education, and all the other areas of large spending and investment by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWe have a clear choice now. They have demonstrated on that side of the House what they do when they are in. They create a social deficit. We have spent 4 years beginning to restore that, and we have made a very real difference. New Zealanders can look at this Budget Policy Statement and know this Government will do even more for investing in people. Dr Brash has told them his intention is to do less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00226c55ea33a7d04e8aba38b4aeb53601f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c55ea33a7d04e8aba38b4aeb53601f4\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E At least, with that single clap after that speech, we can arrive at the conclusion that not all members on the Labour benches are mad, and we can be glad about that. New Zealanders certainly know that we cannot afford this Labour Government. For a start, I think the Minister should take another call and explain to the people of Christchurch why the Canterbury District Health Board is going to close wards. New Zealanders nowadays cannot afford to get sick, because if they do they will not get treatment. I would like the next speaker from the Government side of the House to explain to the public why they should have to feel so vulnerable. I have just received an email from the spouse of a seriously ill man\u2014which I may forward to the Minister and ask her to explain\u2014who wrote to me, stating that the Auckland District Health Board has delayed her husband\u2019s surgery four times. Our cancer patients are being sent to Australia for treatment. The Canterbury health board has just announced that due to a shortage of funding, it will close wards. New Zealand\u2019s health service is very sick because of this Government\u2019s mismanagement. We were told a few weeks ago by one of the district health boards\u2014I think in Auckland\u2014that a patient suffering from gallstones had to have four attacks, suffering much pain and blacking out twice, before being able to have the gallstones removed. Those are Third World health standards. The Minister of Health should take a call and explain that to New Zealanders. They are worrying themselves sick\u2014and they had better not get sick, because this Government has mismanaged the health service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EHowever, I want to address the Budget Policy Statement. It is with some sadness that I take part in this debate, because this is the last time that the Budget Policy Statement will be presented in its current form. I am very sceptical about this Labour Government, which has introduced a public finance bill stating that in future the Budget Policy Statement will concentrate only on the priorities of the upcoming Budget. It will actually divorce the Budget Policy Statement from the fiscal strategy outlook, although they have usually been presented together. The Fiscal Strategy Report will detail high-level, long-term fiscal strategy, which means that in future the Budget Policy Statement will concentrate only on the next 12 months\u2019 spending. Now that the longer-term financial position of the Government\u2019s accounts will not be presented at the same time as the Budget Policy Statement, people will just concentrate on where the Government is going to spend the money, without having a framework of reference, in terms of a longer time-span, as to how that will affect the overall financial situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI would like to remind the public of why the Minister of Finance wants to remove the fiscal strategy outlook from the Budget Policy Statement. On page 4 of the statement that we are currently debating he states: \u201CSpending in the 2004 Budget is expected to be greater than forecast in the Fiscal Strategy Report 2003, with $2.1 billion of new operating spending committed for 2004/5, rising to $3.3 billion in future years.\u201D Basically, in future, by removing that longer-term outlook, the Government will just concentrate on and continue with its tax-and-spend philosophy. By and large, I think the public resigns itself to the fact that the Government is a tax-and-spend Government. However, this Labour Government should also be very careful if it wants to continue to tax and spend, because for a start it has to have profitable businesses and individuals in employment to derive the taxation revenue from. For the remainder of my speech, I want to concentrate on the profitability of our small-business sector, mainly because, right now, the Labour Government is on a roadshow that champions and celebrates small business in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELet me share the statistics with the public. Eighty-seven percent of businesses in New Zealand are small, which means that they employ five staff or fewer. I would like to share with the public what the Hon John Tamihere had to say about those small businesses while on the Labour\u2019s roadshow with that sector. Apparently, even the Hon John Tamihere has heard that small businesses\u2019 concerns fall into four areas: the Holidays Act, taxation, the Employment Relations Act, and compliance costs. When I explore each of those areas and how the Labour Government has performed in it, I think the public will really appreciate how out of touch this Labour Government is with business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EFor a start, small businesses say they object to the policy of 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave. John Tamihere said in his speech that the Labour Government was unable to deliver on that particular promise and would back away from introducing 4 weeks\u2019 leave, but that it would do the next-best thing: it would specify the year of its introduction. Small businesses say they do not want the 4 weeks\u2019 leave provisions, so the Labour Government says it will do the next-best thing, and tell them when 4 weeks\u2019 leave will be introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe next thing that small businesses ask for is a cut in taxation, and the Hon John Tamihere, once again, says the Government cannot deliver a cut in taxation, so it will deliver the next-best thing. Can members guess what that is? The Government proposes giving businesses a subsidy so they can have their payroll tax prepared by an agent, thereby introducing welfare into the business sector. So, instead of the Government saying it will make it simpler for businesses to pay the tax, it says no, it will subside businesses by paying them to employ somebody to do the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the small-business sector complains about is the Employment Relations Act. At least the Hon John Tamihere is honest, compared with the rest of the Labour bench. When, as Minister for Small Business, he was asked in the House what support he had received from small business for the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill, he said there had been none. But the Government is still going to go for that legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d11daa2c6d654074a5e962dde13c2dbe\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: At least he\u2019s honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac883c1a5864581ac01b0d2f53c3122\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: At least he is honest, as my very good colleague reminds us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELastly, when small businesses complain to the Government about high compliance costs, can members guess what its response to the sector is? The Government\u2019s response is to say that it will set up a tool on the website called the \u201CEmployment Agreement Builder\u201D. When small businesses complain that they do not have the time to get on with their business, the Government tells them not to worry about that because it will give them a software package they can log on to that will take them through the procedure, so they will know how to comply. That shows just how out of touch this Labour Government is with the business sector. It has absolutely no idea about how to encourage and help small businesses to grow into medium-sized business, and then into big businesses, so that they can actually pay a fair share of tax. We all know that this Government believes in a tax-and-spend philosophy, but even if we believe in that we have to make sure we have individuals who earn good money and businesses that are profitable. One does not kill the goose just to get the golden eggs in a one-off situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThere is nothing to celebrate in this Budget Policy Statement. I hope that the next Labour speaker who gets up will explain why the Government is not listening to small business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221cd68c472892463f809f663344d60043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cd68c472892463f809f663344d60043\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I will gladly deal with economic matters in this speech. It seems strange to me that National often ignores the economy and chooses to attack the Government on race issues, instead. I reflect on why that is. Why is it that the self-appointed economic guru, Dr Brash, seldom deals with matters of our economy? Why is that? It is because I know, this House knows, and most of the public know, that our economy is performing well. Dr Brash knows that our economy is prospering under the wise stewardship of this Government. I am not one of those people who say we do not face challenges. We are facing challenges as a consequence of the drop in the exchange rate of the US dollar. The US dollar has been plummeting, and that does make the situation difficult for exporters. We acknowledge that. [Interruption] The fact that it is the US dollar that is plummeting is obvious to those people, like Mr Key, who wish to take an interest in the matter. The exchange rate of the New Zealand dollar has not increased as steeply against either the euro or the British pound as it has against the US dollar. So the challenge posed by the exchange rate of our dollar is real, but it has not hurt significant parts of the economy such as inbound tourism, for example, which is one of the strongest contributors to our economy now. Inbound tourism is at record numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhy is it that Dr Brash does not focus on the economy but instead attacks the Government on race issues? It is because our economy, under the wise stewardship of Dr Cullen, has become one of the strongest in the OECD. We run a Budget surplus. We prudently collect more from taxes than we spend\u2014that is a good idea, is it not; no one could disagree with that\u2014and that is even after we put away about $2 billion per annum to fund future superannuation payments. We have even been able to reduce Government debt while doing that. Gross Government debt was 36 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) when we took over in 1999. It is now down to 28 percent of GDP, and still dropping. The Budget Policy Statement shows that it is projected to drop to close to 20 percent of GDP over the forecast period. The projection for net debt is even better, but does Dr Brash talk about that? No, he does not, because it is factual and it is good news. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat about unemployment? Does Dr Brash talk about that? Not much. Unemployment has dropped to less than 5 percent of the workforce. Does he celebrate that? Our unemployment rate is the lowest in 16 years, and is one of the best in the OECD. Does Dr Brash give us any credit for that? No, he does not. What about economic growth? In recent years, the growth rate in New Zealand has been amongst the best in the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd13ee525e8f46a68e89c4ad56ef66bf\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Relative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dc62ef8521847fdaaab2ca430698e1d\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Relative to the rest of the OECD. Is that not good enough for the member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3fa8dd1687e4025a87e290e58eb2ef8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member. While interjections are permitted, I cannot let members drown out the speaker. I can hardly hear him. I refer members to Speaker\u2019s ruling 56/1. Interjections should be rare, reasonable, and relevant. They should not be like a running commentary, and that is what we are getting at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225364a5d5dc574dad931197e59d4c3b4e\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I accept fully your ruling, but I think also that the member should be discussing the Budget Policy Statement and not speaking entirely about Dr Don Brash. I know that he and the Government are running scared, particularly in Otago, about the success of the National Party, but we are here to hear about the Budget Policy Statement, and not what a great job Don Brash is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ff720a43004da3afa880cd57eac266\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223043a722868242b1aef70b0f5c3b3b97\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is interesting that when the facts are put before Parliament, there is a harangue from the Opposition benches as those members try to drown out the simple facts recorded in the Budget Policy Statement. In terms of growth, we heard Mr Prebble tell us before that the Budget Policy Statement projected growth of 1.5 percent per annum. I say to Mr Prebble that that is wrong. I point him to table 1.1 on page 15 of the December Economic and Fiscal Update. Mr Prebble did not actually have to read very far through the document to get the right figures. He obviously did not bother to do that, and he made up a figure. He says the figure is 1.5 percent. The projection is 2.8 percent for this year, rising to 3.4 percent in 2006 and 2007, and 3 percent in 2008. The figure of 1.5 percent does not appear. I am looking at table 1.1 on page 15. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMr Prebble\u2019s making up of figures is comparable to Dr Brash\u2019s selective memory when quoting historical figures. Dr Brash keeps going on about how a gap has arisen between the fortunes of New Zealand and Australia in OECD per capita GDP figures. He has talked about the gap, and last year\u2014and I have mentioned this before\u2014around the time of the Budget he said: \u201CThe rate of growth was too slow to narrow the large gap in living standards between New Zealand and Australia that emerged during the 1970s and 1980s.\u201D Those are his words, not mine, and I am quoting from an article that he authored in the Dominion Post. The reality is that Dr Brash misses out the 1990s, which is pretty strange. When one is looking back from the year 2004, it is pretty strange to look at the 1970s and 1980s but to forget about the 1990s. The reason Dr Brash does that is that the statistics do not make out his case; they show the opposite of that. In the 1980s Australia was ranked 10th  in the OECD\u2019s per capita rankings, and New Zealand was ranked at 18. At the end of that decade, under the wise stewardship of Labour, New Zealand had gone back one place, and Australia had charged back six places. During the 1990s, the decade of Dr Brash\u2019s stewardship of the Reserve Bank and of the National Party\u2019s stewardship of the Government, Australia went forward four places, while New Zealand went back one place. It is no wonder that Dr Brash ignores the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn the Labour Party we have a different philosophy from that of National and ACT. We think that issues of income distribution and economic efficiency cannot be separated. The National and ACT members do not care whether there is a great disparity between high-income earners and low-income earners. We do care about that. That is a matter of basic philosophy where we differ from National and ACT. We do not think that the economy performs as well when there are those great income disparities. We think that social cohesiveness and equality of opportunity are important to our overall economic prosperity and to our personal security. If we share income around we all prosper. If we concentrate income and wealth, as National and ACT did in the 1990s and would do again, the top 10 percent prospers but the economy as a whole suffers. That is why we focus on need, not privilege, and why the Budget will again do that this year. It will focus on need, not privilege. What would National and ACT members on the Opposition side of the House do if they became the Government? They are saying they would have one standard of citizenship, but we all know that they really mean tax cuts for the rich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn contrast with National and ACT, Labour believes in policy that is based on needs, not privilege. If we look at what is signalled in this Budget Policy Statement, we can see we are seeing that through, because of the increased support that is signalled this year for the likes of family support. We will actually be giving an effective tax break to low to middle income families. That is where a responsible Government should apply the Budget surplus, and that is where it will be applied, because we focus on needs, not on privilege and tax cuts for the rich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will deal with another issue that Pansy Wong has just referred to, and that is the concern about compliance costs. Compliance costs have been a thorny old issue that National members have rattled on about for the last 2 or 3 years. But, again, on that issue they have been shown to overplay their hand. Survey after survey by international bodies that are independent of New Zealand and recognised for their rigour all say that New Zealand runs a very unregulated, low - compliance cost economy. The latest survey out this week is the World Bank survey. It is a survey of 130 countries\u2014not one or two. Now, where does New Zealand rank in compliance costs in those 130 countries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220703dbfb4bb74677b48b2b99f272a633\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s historical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed01fdd469694de49127410be47b94b7\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that is historical, I hear. Well, we are not getting any assistance from the Opposition benches now. Where were we ranked? No. 1. We had the lowest compliance costs of those 130 countries. Was that a one-off freak event? No, it was not. The Wall Street Journal recently commissioned a similar study. What was the answer in that study? Again, New Zealand was right up there, at the top, with one of the lowest levels of regulation and compliance costs. One would think members on the Opposition side of the House would celebrate that. No, they do not; they try to deny reality. Just as they try to ignore the reality of the 1990s, when, under their stewardship, the gap arose between Australia\u2019s and New Zealand\u2019s well-being and wealth, they now try to say that those international surveys are rubbish.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe electorate is on to National and ACT. How do I know that? I had a letter given to me recently by a concerned constituent. National had written to the person to beg for money, as usual. The letter states that National has plans to tackle areas like reducing the gap in living standards between New Zealand and Australia. The constituent sent that letter to me because that person was aware of how misleading that statement was. That gap arose under National because of National\u2019s policies, and we will fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00224360ad6089a140498c293096fc70a6d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224360ad6089a140498c293096fc70a6d2\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next member, I tell members I have been advised that the next speech is to be shared fifty-fifty. There will be 5 minutes for National and 5 minutes for New Zealand First. I will ring the bell at 4 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002281c8378bf3e541208426bfc6d2983d9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281c8378bf3e541208426bfc6d2983d9a\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E That was a most amusing speech from the soon-to-be former MP for Otago, because once Katherine Rich goes in there he will be out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis year\u2019s Budget will be known as the vote-buying Budget. Labour is in a desperate situation. Its caucus is in disarray. Its Ministers are talking about joining other parties. It has to look to its old foe, Winston Peters, to try to help it out in question time against the National Party\u2014and he is always happy to help out. Its race-based rhetoric is being thrown to the winds, its Ministers have contorted themselves inside and out through U-turn after U-turn\u2014and having listened through Mr Parker\u2019s speech, boy, we can see U-turn following U-turn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat is the Prime Minister doing? What is she going to do for ordinary New Zealanders in this Budget? This Government\u2019s Prime Minister is going to try to show that not only are she and her Government gay-friendly but now they are traditional family - friendly, as well. Not only is she atheist-friendly but now her Labour-voting bishops in the Anglican and Catholic churches are rushing to show she is also God-fearing - friendly, as well. My goodness, she is friendly! She is rushing to appease the anti-immigration vote and enlisting New Zealand First to help out\u2014and bringing in their ridiculous new policies\u2014and at the same time she is rushing to appease the migrant vote, particularly the migrant women\u2019s vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EHow has this self-proclaimed popular and competent Prime Minister tried to achieve that? I will tell members. She employed in her electorate office a person whose job is described by the Labour Party as an ethnic coordinator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298dbc35d4fd2481bbcb5afd1e22140e7\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: A what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce494917503d435d86fca4a79e78636f\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: An ethnic coordinator. I thought New Zealand First would like to hear that. That is the same electorate office that supposedly sent the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739cc640040b4726a1a22d6149135465\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. While there is a tradition that these debates are relatively wide ranging, it is quite clear that many of the matters recently raised by the member have absolutely no bearing on the Budget Policy Statement, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f591afb227241f1bd5194ce8b202d7c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a debatable matter, but I would ask the member to come to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d241f385a77c449cb917c5de1b7b3acf\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I just mention that this point is about the Budget and, of course, about the use of Parliamentary Service taxpayers\u2019 money in the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E That is the same electorate office that supposedly sent the \u201Cguinea-pig\u201D letter\u2014not once, not twice, but three times to the parliamentary office of Lianne Dalziel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe ethnic coordinator is Farida Sultana. She worked in Helen Clark\u2019s electorate office, signing up migrant women to the Labour Party. It is alleged she was setting up a migrant women\u2019s Labour Party branch at the same time as running the Shakti migrant women\u2019s centre, and merging the two. I want to know whether that sort of behaviour will be acceptable under this Budget. Has this woman, working in Helen Clark\u2019s office, been setting up a migrant women\u2019s branch of the Labour Party, and has she been paid by the taxpayer through the Parliamentary Service? This House is entitled to know. Ms Sultana has told the media they can check with the Parliamentary Service, but of course the service has refused to answer the media because of privacy issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is because of Helen Clark\u2019s own knowledge of her staff member\u2019s purpose that she has done her very best to keep her friend, Ms Sultana, out of the limelight. This is the same Ms Sultana who has now come out and said that her group was the conduit for the \u201Cguinea-pig\u201D letter\u2014that it is her organisation, with its access to the Mangere Refugee Resettlement Centre, that somehow got the letter. But Ms Sultana would have us believe that not only did she pass the letter to Helen Clark\u2019s electorate office but that somehow she got it from the girl\u2019s lawyer. Now we are expected to believe that not only do pigs fly but guinea pigs do, too. The lawyer never did have that letter. We know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe plot gets murkier. Now we have not one, not two, but three of Helen Clark\u2019s office staff involved, and all the time the Prime Minister wants us to believe she did not know what they were doing. That is not one, not two, but three people employed by the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate office\u2014three of her closest friends\u2014who are involved in this matter. Helen Clark is up to her eyeballs in it, just as she was up to her eyeballs in this Government\u2019s money-for-race schemes, just as she was up to her eyeballs in the Prostitution Reform Bill, and just as she is up to her eyeballs in plans to take taxpayers\u2019 hard-earned money and spend it up in trying to keep this Labour Government in power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI seek leave of the House to table a copy of the Labour 2003 directory showing that Ms Sultana is a member of Helen Clark\u2019s staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00222e0c381f68984f6bb57515acb2013cf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e0c381f68984f6bb57515acb2013cf1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a5a7b2de3aa407eb68e9603ddf1340c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Could I please clarify something? I am seeking clarification as to whether that document has a list of phone numbers, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e06aeea52764872ac2c0e66d572707e\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: It does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e5753ebf4c247f3b51cb69b6ebb5292\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I object to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e9b6504f1e44879d92abb653d40c02\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I will put the question again. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002298603a0da5a4462f9062e13995b8cfa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298603a0da5a4462f9062e13995b8cfa4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There has become an unfortunate tendency for Ministers of this Government to address the Speaker while sitting in their chairs and engaging in conversations across the House. That is not the proper way to do it. We saw that behaviour from the Hon Trevor Mallard during question time today, and we have just seen it from the Hon Mark Burton. The proper way to address the Chair is to stand and take a point of order\u2014not to shout out a series of questions or give advice, as we have just seen. I say that it brings the House into disrepute, because we stand here with some respect for the Speaker\u2019s Chair. You should make it quite plain to the Hon Mark Burton that if he wants to address the Speaker in the House he is to stand and take a point of order, or else move across and speak to the Speaker, not lounge around in his chair making comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a03ba6301184c35a3fe006760777dea\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has made his point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022971b1e2f462e400292835dd6b5decc42\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was seeking clarification before, but it was quite inappropriate that I did not rise to my feet. I was working on some papers on my desk and I should have put them aside, stood properly, and sought to get your attention in the appropriate manner. I apologise to you. You did not raise it with me, as is your right, rather than the right of another member from the floor, but I happily apologise to you, and indeed to the House, for not showing proper respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac64cee0d6d442819fab912290a8356c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac64cee0d6d442819fab912290a8356c\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the Budget Policy Statement, I want to make the point that Governments have a responsibility to ensure that the taxes extracted from its citizens are used wisely, efficiently, and effectively. New Zealanders do not so much mind being taxed, but they hate to see their taxes wasted and going down the gurgler for no good purpose. That is what New Zealanders hate. Therefore it is the ultimate irony that the Associate Minister of Revenue, Trevor Mallard, has joint responsibility with Michael Cullen to ensure there is no wastage in Government expenditure. It is Trevor Mallard who, in his other portfolio as Minister of Education, has squandered literally hundreds of millions of taxpayers\u2019 dollars through sheer mismanagement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ELet us just take industrial relations. In 1997 and 1998 the National - New Zealand First team had long drawn-out negotiations\u2014reasonably bitter\u2014with the Post Primary Teachers Association and the New Zealand Educational Institute, yet not one day\u2019s learning was lost through strike action relating to those negotiations. I have to ask this House: how many days were lost when Trevor Mallard negotiated with a Labour-leaning Post Primary Teachers Association? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut here is the rub. The situation was handled so badly that when those teachers went on strike, many of them still got paid. I kid you not! The Minister now has to bring special legislation forward to ensure that this will not happen again this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut what was the result? The Government ended up by paying secondary teachers a whole lot more than they were claiming in the first place, and far, far more than they were prepared to settle for. It reminds one of the ASB Goldstein advertisement where he ends up paying more than the sales girl was asking and still claiming: \u201CI\u2019m the man.\u201D Members should watch that advertisement and think: \u201CTrevor Mallard\u201D. Over the years, that fiasco will cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars, and we have ended up with an industrial mess over qualifications of monumental proportions. It is so bad that the Minister anticipates industrial action from both primary and secondary teachers in the salary rounds that take place this year\u2014hence the rush for the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWhat about his handling of the school network reviews? In order to curry favour with the unions before the 1999 elections, he offered gold-plated staffing schedules for small primary schools. In doing so, he clearly put them in the sights of Treasury because of their disproportionate per-pupil costs\u2014hence the mad rush to close down as many schools as possible in the earliest possible time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut Trevor Mallard does not do anything by halves. If he is going to stuff up, then he will stuff up big time. Not content to look at areas where there were smaller schools with unsustainable rolls, Trevor Mallard decided to hit provincial towns and cities. He wanted to consult with parents eyeball-to-eyeball, as I did in Oamaru in 1998. But when I came away from the anger that existed because parents felt predetermined decisions had been made, that anger had been quelled. In Trevor Mallard\u2019s case all he did was to stir things up wherever he went. Between 1996 and 1999, 95 schools were shut. There was not one march on Parliament, yet in these particular rounds we have already seen two marches on Parliament\u2014one from south Taranaki and one from the Upper Hutt communities\u2014on two separate occasions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ETrevor Mallard bit off more than he could chew, or the system could accommodate. It took some time for reality to sink in, but finally he realised he was going too far, too fast. I will give him credit for that. He announced he would back up a bit and slow the process down. That was the wise thing to do. Some fine-tuning of the current review decisions could have been made, but then what did he do? He announced a moratorium. What happened to all his fine speeches about eradicating wastage? Suddenly, wastage of taxpayers\u2019 money became all right because of two unfavourable polls, but, worse, he set up an expectation from schools that had been through the process that they had been given a stay of execution. After all the enormously expensive work through the network process, what has he done? He has actually set the process backwards so that most of those schools now hope for a reversal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EIf his decisions were the right ones 2 weeks ago, why are they not the right ones now? The Minister has got himself into a real mess, but\u2014and this is the unfortunate situation\u2014like the secondary schools teacher situation, he will spend whatever is necessary to extricate himself from that mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022db9272408d5746efbb6172571b296596\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db9272408d5746efbb6172571b296596\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I want to do something unusual in this debate and actually talk about the Budget Policy Statement, and the report from the select committee, of which I am a member. I would like people who bothered to read it to look at page 7, headed \u201CCorporate Taxation\u201D. The committee sought some information, which I will table at the end of this speech, about the level of subsidy that Government makes to business by way of wage subsidy\u2014and I use that term loosely, because in many respects it is a subsidy to low and medium-income earners. Seven hundred and sixty three million dollars of subsidy has been identified by Treasury as the amount of money that Government spent in the year 2002-03.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf520e19887451482c6bde810e2a9d3\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: How many million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7e59a93109c476ebd98de33f63626eb\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: Seven hundred and sixty three million dollars. That is a large amount of money, and it is important that businesses in New Zealand know it is of enormous direct benefit to them. Seven hundred and sixty three million dollars is spent on programmes such as family support, which cost $330 million in that financial year; a child tax credit of $143 million; paid parental leave costs, which at that point were $56.5 million; a family tax credit of $15.6 million, and parental-tax credits of $11.7 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThat is a total of $557 million administered by the Inland Revenue Department for low-income earners who work for New Zealand businesses. New Zealand businesses, therefore, are not met with the challenge of paying a wage that meets the costs of living for a substantial number of New Zealand workers. So when we get submissions from employer peak bodies\u2014religiously each time and identical\u2014they do not go back and consult their members, as they demand when employment relations law is before  Parliament. They trot them off the word processor and say: \u201CWe must have tax cuts, and we must have less Government spending.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EBut in that debate, do we ever hear from those employer peak organisations\u2014and I am deliberately talking about them and not the average hard-working New Zealand business person\u2014about what the Government spends in subsidising the wages of New Zealand workers? No, we never hear that from those business commentators\u2014people who do not employ anybody, but work for employer organisations. It is time we did. It is time those people were challenged when they just turn up to a select committee and chant the mantra: \u201CTax cuts and lower Government spending.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EAnother $205 million is administered by Work and Income by way of direct wage subsidies, and that is a good thing. I have been meeting small-business people in my electorate, who tell me they are very pleased with the people they have employed in the past, using those wage subsidies\u2014people who have gone on to perform magnificently in their businesses and are key and crucial members of their staff. Those people might never have got those jobs if it were not for the initial wage subsidy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EAn accommodation supplement is also paid to wage earners who cannot afford to pay the rent or the mortgage out of their wage packet. That tells us there is an enormous level of subsidy, and I am not complaining about it. It is very necessary, and it is of major assistance to New Zealand business, so I celebrate it. I very much enjoyed the opportunity to have a little discussion in the select committee about that very important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI repeat again\u2014$763 million in the financial year 2002-03. In the Budget Policy Statement, the Minister of Finance and this Government have signalled that we can expect that figure to be even larger once this Budget is put through later this year. I challenge some of those business leaders to get up and say whether that is the Government spending they want cut, and will they meet the real cost for those workers to live in New Zealand, pay the rent, and bring up their children? I think not. I do not think we will see the Business Roundtable, Business New Zealand, and that strange organisation in Auckland called the Employers and Manufacturers Association, demanding that we cut those wage subsidies that taxpayers pay.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EBut we need to hear the view of ordinary business. I know from my discussions that ordinary business greatly appreciates the fact that it can get assistance with childcare for their employees, for people with a disability who require some assistance to get into a job. Ordinary business people greatly appreciate that an employer can turn to the Government for that sort of assistance. They know there is an awful lot more money being spent by Government than the $763 million I have just isolated here. If we look into the area of industry development, promotion of New Zealand business overseas, tourism, training, and the Modern Apprenticeships scheme, we will see that all of those things are of major and direct benefit to New Zealand business. It is time we started to look at that and say: \u201CIs it a good thing or a bad thing?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI have not heard a single Opposition speaker talk about those issues. They are all into the scurrilous nonsense we heard from the likes of Judith Collins. If Don Brash is the anaesthetist, then she is in training to be the mortician, but she has none of the warmth and kindliness of the morticians I have met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EHowever, I digress. I want to get back to this very business-friendly Government and its Budget Policy Statement, and the things that are of direct benefit to business. I will say it again\u2014the $763 million is of direct benefit to business, and we are talking a couple of years ago, compared to what it will be later this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWe have to face up to some of the submitters and, as a country, be able to say that it is not right, that it is not good enough for New Zealand workers to be paid a wage that would keep them in poverty; that it is not good enough that we have businesses that actually rely on the taxpayer to prop up the wages they pay. Somewhere down the track we will have to face up to that reality, because the taxpayer is paying three-quarters of a billion dollars in direct wage subsidy. I guess that if one did the figures\u2014and we hear a lot about getting the corporate tax rate down from 33c to 30c\u2014that is probably $763 million more than businesses would get from that reduction in tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ELet us have that debate with the Opposition parties, and see which way they go. But no, Opposition members have had their chance in the last 2 hours to debate economic policy and what they believe in. We heard from the very renowned assistant spokesperson on finance, Mr Key, whom I have a lot of respect for, because he is somebody who knows about business. But we heard nothing about National Party policy. Has it got any? No, not on that stuff, not on business, and not on the economy. A bit of slagging-off goes on, but did we hear one piece of policy from the National Party? I did not hear any.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022577ffe2c97174cc4b55118a0c2bbf88b\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s your Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbd573c8d0d0456db16dea3a70975c7e\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolutely correct, but when a party is in Opposition, it is paid by the taxpayer to come up with alternatives. That lot over there have no alternatives. They would have trouble criticising some of this policy\u2014like the child tax credit. Did not the National Party have something to do with the introduction of that? Will it continue with it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EPansy Wong spoke about the terrible thing of allowing workers 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. Would the National Party take that off workers? Mr Key says yes\u2014National will take away the fourth week of annual holiday when it gets into power. It will do it in the first week probably. When it last had a chance back in 1990, it took away pay equity in the first week. National will not be giving people 11 weeks to submit on an industrial relations amendment bill. It did not do that with the Employment Contracts Act. It slammed that legislation through so fast that people were barely able to blink, let alone make a decent submission on it. National has a very short memory when it comes to those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI remind members in this debate that there is a very good report from the committee dealing with some important issues. Those submitters who want tax cuts and lower Government spending had better tell New Zealanders what that means in reality. It is like the National Party saying it is terrible that the Government is putting money aside for superannuation, but will it tell elderly New Zealanders that it will put the age up to 70 and cut the level of superannuation? It will not, so how will Dr Brash fund it when he cuts tax? Will he raise the age of eligibility, or will he cut the level? We do not hear any of that from the National Party, because it wants to pretend that that is not its policy, but we know it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EAs Mr Mark pointed out, National will privatise anything and everything that has not already been privatised. The National Party is devoid of policy on the economy, and does not want to debate. It sloganises and carries on, but the reality is that this Government puts an awful lot of cash into the hands of business. It does that in many, many ways and I congratulate it on doing so. It is a good way to relieve pressure on business, but it also makes sure that New Zealanders can have a decent standard of living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table a letter from Dr Michael Cullen, Minister of Finance, dated 27 February to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, outlining the figures I spoke about in my speech during the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc9679301fe54093b50352d9d7a54df7\u0022\u003EStatus of Redundancy Payments Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002218900716e80447099034296c6d540192\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022cab4e4e7538e4b749833cf803bb32bd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cab4e4e7538e4b749833cf803bb32bd5\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Status of Redundancy Payments Bill that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cd959c66c1bf47669c5a5999bf26df43\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022372d13e9b02943e29ea8060cdd8c38a0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d2707525c044661a8fa56100bd9c0aa\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Companies Act 1993\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00222872d3f7b0824ba0a12bd6a7ce2132b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222872d3f7b0824ba0a12bd6a7ce2132b8\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I want to go through Part 1 quickly, but take the opportunity at this stage to thank my colleague Rick Barker, the author of the original bill, for the work he did in the initial stages on putting this legislation together. I am sure he will be as delighted as I am that we have reached the Committee stage in the House where we can scrutinise the provisions recommended unanimously by the select committee, which we are seeking to progress today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI also take the opportunity to thank New Zealand First for the support it has given to this bill. In particular, I acknowledge the contribution of Peter Brown to the debate. Peter Brown is a well-known employer in the shipping industry in New Zealand, and he certainly does not deal lightly with industrial relations matters. He is a man for whom I have considerable respect, and I certainly want to pass on my thanks to him for the very careful way he has worked through the issues in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EPart 1 deals with the changes to the Companies Act that are required, and with some definitions in terms of the meaning of \u201Cdirector\u201D, and amends the seventh schedule of the Companies Act to bring about the changes that are necessary. When one goes through the changes that are being looked at in this particular bill, one sees it is about raising the cap on redundancy payments that can be claimed in the case of an insolvency, from $6,000 to $15,000. If one goes further, one finds that the amendments to the seventh schedule are about ensuring that that particular sum of money keeps pace with inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EEmployees face this particular problem where a company goes belly up\u2014that is, employees who have negotiated a redundancy settlement. I do make that particular point clear to the Committee now. We are dealing with a situation where employees have bargained to have a redundancy provision within a contract of employment. In the process of doing so, they have probably traded away other things. In other words, there has been consideration along the way that redundancy provisions will be included in an employment contract, in exchange for other things. Often, there can be a lesser wage increase as a result of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EBy and large, one is talking about large industries that have the capacity to be sunset industries. The freezing industry is a classic case in point. This bill picks up on the collapse of the Weddel freezing works in particular, but this matter was an issue in my own electorate with the reorganisation of the Alliance freezing works back in the 1980s, the move of Southland Frozen Meat to PPCS and, ultimately, the Alliance, and the reduction of the number of chains necessary, the change in work methods, and things of that ilk. So we are talking about industries where redundancy deals have been negotiated. This bill seeks to ensure that the sums negotiated do not lose their value over time through inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI do not want to say much more about Part 1 other than that, but again I say to the Committee that these particular changes bring this part of the law up to date, and recognise the amount of money that people need at a time like that as they try to put their lives back together. It is a sad thing that, when a company goes belly up and there are problems with the payment of compensation, workers get badly hurt in the process. This bill recognises that and ensures they are entitled to claim a rate of money over and above $6,000, which was the previous maximum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EIt is about time the House addressed this particular matter. I know that the Government is doing further work on insolvency law, and will send a bill to the House at some time in the future. I am looking forward, as the chair of the Commerce Committee, to receiving some of that work, so that our committee can get on with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI think Part 1 deals with those particular matters quite well, and I thank the members who contributed to that during the debate in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002227214d99acbc4fe3af8da1eb4798d7e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227214d99acbc4fe3af8da1eb4798d7e3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Paul Adams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002224829553353c4f9ba7007eca31c1f188\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224829553353c4f9ba7007eca31c1f188\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I would like you to explain your rationale for allocating the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d50d1d36cee4959be4a995a5e1a080b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Adams was the first member to stand up. That is what it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022413aca12a70b475bb9b138ea818f1559\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022413aca12a70b475bb9b138ea818f1559\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National): \u003C/span\u003EI raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. For the Chair to ascertain who stood up first requires her to move her head around and look. I was standing here while the member was still speaking, and I called and you just did not look.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3996fc49bdf4752ae3912a82bc09748\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3996fc49bdf4752ae3912a82bc09748\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Sowry, I did not hear you call and I apologise for that, but I have called Mr Adams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7115b48de1847ea80b34126e25b294c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7115b48de1847ea80b34126e25b294c\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E As an ex - racing driver I am always very quick off the mark. Madam Chairperson, you are correct; I was the first one on my feet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EUnited Future will not be supporting the Status of Redundancy Payments Bill. The report from the Commerce Committee is of considerable concern to me. It states: \u201CWe considered the issues raised and on reflection felt that the financial dependence of employees on their employer is greater than that of other creditors who are likely to have many sources of income.\u201D I was very concerned when I read that passage, written by members of the Commerce Committee. I believe that the statement that creditors are \u201Clikely\u201D\u2014that is a key word\u2014\u201Cto have many sources of income\u201D is a ridiculous statement to have come from the Commerce Committee, and committee members should be ashamed to have made it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ELet us talk about that issue. What is a redundant worker? A redundant worker is one who is deprived of his or her job because it is no longer necessary. In contrast, a creditor is a commercial enterprise or a person to whom money is owed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223db7e519aa4a41a6bb07979cae68ca5d\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Are you opposing the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022289ed915868b4e67bd2b69c6193b0ccd\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are. Will employees be paid for all the work they have done up to the point of redundancy? Yes, they will. Will those employees have many other sources that they are likely to be able to apply to for work and then, again, to receive payment from for work that is done? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc9dcea856c84b9baebb2dcbb0a17519\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Including welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f84758fcd4e4be3aff79224a09c2b7d\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member is correct\u2014including welfare. But what about a poor old sole trader who becomes the creditor of a failed company? I agree with Mark Peck that nobody likes to see a company fail. But here we have sole traders\u2014in other words, people who have chosen to work for themselves and take the risk of undertaking work for a company. Just as a worker expects to be paid for work that is done, a sole trader also expects, when he or she quotes for a contract, to be paid for the work that is done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227d3e7586eb04091992ebbd5788564d1\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: And is the bank sympathetic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022893e266861114a20b7036bd2ce116204\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: No, the banks are not sympathetic. Will sole traders be paid for the work they have done, when this legislation is passed? No, they will not. In most cases a small sole trader will not have many sources of other income\u2014absolutely not! What is worse is that the sole trader will possibly be so financially crippled that he or she will be unable to continue working as a sole trader and may, in fact, face financial disaster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI ask the sponsor of this bill, Mark Peck, where his mercy and compassion is\u2014I hear about that so often from this Government\u2014for those people. Any leader must maintain a good balance between two things: truth and mercy. Both of those factors are totally missing from this legislation. The qualities of being true, genuine, actual, or factual are important\u2014not wondering what one can say that people may perceive as being true. Mercy is the compassionate treatment of a person who is in our care. I believe that this legislation discriminates between a wage earner and a contractor. Both the employee and the sole trader are human beings with families to feed, and both want to work for a living. Discrimination is the unfair treatment of a person based on prejudice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E I have seen it time and time again that in the Government\u2019s eyes there are two groups of people in this country. It is discriminating against one of the groups, and I believe that must stop. Both groups are made up of New Zealanders who are trying to earn a living and trying to feed their families, but one group has made the big mistake, in this Government\u2019s eyes, of deciding to go it alone and call themselves self-employed. This Government has a totally mistaken view of what being self-employed is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7d7c5d72aed40158bd67eaead6ab972\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7d7c5d72aed40158bd67eaead6ab972\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National): \u003C/span\u003EThere is nothing like having a new president of a political party, and polling at 1 percent, to get that party suddenly to decide that it is on the wrong side of the fence. I am sure that a speech like Mr Adams\u2019 will not go unnoticed as that member tries to find his new place on the list that he is sliding down at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa6b4f043064b3ea0a2db1eda894827\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E:I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I would like to point out that we have never said we are on one side of the fence or the other. We are in the centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022126b81909d214cdf96bcf63c2fe17fcd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is not correct. It is a debatable point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243126de116394096b88f026feab25d99\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. That is the problem that United Future has. It has never been on one side of the fence or the other. It has voted with one side and talked the other way\u2014but do not worry, because the president is sorting it out. Mr Blumsky is going to fix it, and that member will be fixed along with that problem so he will not have to worry about what side of the fence he is on, in the future. He was on Inky Tulloch\u2019s side of the fence, so he is history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E This is terrible legislation. This legislation does one thing: it says to small businesses that supply large businesses that their money takes a lower priority in the case of an insolvency than the redundancy agreements of the staff who are employed in the business. To put it quite simply, when the freezing works goes broke, the staff will get their redundancy, which has been union negotiated, before the contract electrician gets the money that he is owed. So the electrician goes belly-up, but the staff will get their redundancy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fee9dadda8ea4127a46c11954ad557b4\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The Status of Redundancy Payments Bill puts payment of redundancies for workers who are working for a firm that goes bankrupt ahead of payments for other creditors. That means that the bill, and this part, which is part of the ordering process, says to somebody who has provided goods and services to a business that is insolvent that not only will the staff who have lost their jobs in that business be paid the wages and holiday leave owing to them\u2014and National has no problem with that\u2014but they will be paid redundancy. National totally opposes that ordering, because it will force many other small businesses to go under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI gave an example of this earlier in the debate, where a business that I know of went into insolvency. Under this bill, the staff would all get redundancy payments, but all the people who had been providing services\u2014the electricians and the people who had sent goods and were owed money\u2014would get nothing. In many cases, particularly where they are small firms and have a lot of money owed to them, they will now get nothing, their priority is reduced, and they will go under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003ESo employees will walk away with redundancy, but a whole lot of other people lose their employment. That does not make economic sense. Businesses do not support this legislation at all, and I do not know why this Labour Government is so hell-bent on making it as difficult as it can for business. Why is it? What is it that makes Labour politicians get up in the morning and decide: \u201CWe must do something more to put small businesses at risk. We must\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022009cabe6847e41fe8ba536a8edcb1d93\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s about worker fairness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fbde389e895484b9381fc2ebf095811\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour member says it is about worker fairness. Well, the Labour member does not understand that there is no job for the worker without people who put their money on the line and take the risk. For those sorts of businesses, this bill will stop that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of other points I will make about this later on in the debate. In fact, I will make one of them now; as it was such a good point, I could see my colleagues were very keen to hear me out on this. The other point I want to make is that this bill, like all these Labour Government bills that are anti-business, will change the way businesses behave. For example, if a supplier is supplying a company that it knows or hears from the rumour mill is going through a bit of a bad patch, the supplier will say: \u201CI will come and service your machine, but it is cash up front, otherwise I will not do it. Because if I front up and fix the machine, and then you go belly-up, your workers will all be paid redundancy and I will not get anything, and I will go belly-up.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EWinnie Laban thinks that is a good idea, and laughs about it. She thinks it is very, very funny. In her electorate there is a business that went through this process: Hills Hats. She might not know that, or have been there, but it went through this process. If this law had been in place, that business would not be there now. It went through the insolvency and came out the other end, because the creditors managed their way through it. I say to Ms Laban that this bill would have put them under. Is she aware of that? Yes, she is. She is aware of that, and happy to see it go ahead and vote for it\u2014and happy to sit there and laugh about it\u2014even though in her constituency, she knows this bill would have put the business under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EIt is the same with large firms, such as Lakeview Farms freezing works in Dannevirke, in the member for Wairarapa\u2019s electorate. What would this bill have done to it? Has she talked to the Everton family about it? No, she has not. Has she talked to the managers of Lakeview about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d2b994a6df14a06b42543593f378a00\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Have they talked to me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ddcd1866af4c598bc94ab191722161\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, they have not come to her. She says they have not talked to her, so that is fine. She will ignore it. What do members think about this? She is part of the M\u0101ori caucus. Has she talked to the new M\u0101ori owners of Lakeview in Levin? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298322d47d5734b19acea01c31ee486d5\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: No, I haven\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225738a885b2fa45e4b83305ff15df3568\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: No, she has not talked to them. I want to say to her, that if she had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b4df9b2f47749b68cf7a7bdb7fcdc38\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Why would I?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022996949531fac4bef8677dd51da1a573b\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Because if this bill had been in place, Georgina Beyer would know that Lakeview in Dannevirke would not have got through its difficulties a couple of years ago. Is she aware of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156e41eae5da49aeaf21a88c5fb26ac1\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022536c8803a70a4be0a002e363387ed794\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: She is aware of it. So she is aware that if the bill had been in place then, that business would not have got through its difficulties. So, why is she voting for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2dd1c5b9b2449d86d435a7e853968a\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Because I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022464c848623bb4ecabb5f04fbf1cbfd95\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, she is voting for it, because she supports the bill. Georgina Beyer has not talked to the owners or the managers, even though it is in her electorate. She has not talked to them about the bill at all. She knows and admits in the House that if the bill had been passed, the firm would not have got through its difficulties, but she will vote for the bill because she supports it. Well, that is fantastic logic. That is the arrogance that this Government faces. If one is Georgina Beyer MP, one does not have to get down off one\u2019s high horse and talk to some manager in Dannevirke or some owner of a freezing works that is providing a whole lot of jobs. She says that they should come to her. This is the regal approach to politics. That is the arrogance that has this Labour Government in so much trouble. She is not listening, caring, or worrying, but doing what Helen Clark has told her to do. She says: \u201CI support the bill, so I am voting for it. I do not care about the consequences.\u201D I want to say to those Labour members that when the next firm is insolvent\u2014and there will be one\u2014and it pays out its redundancy to its workers, Labour members will be responsible for other firms going broke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00226ca85f947a1d4511b12c2de4022e7153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ca85f947a1d4511b12c2de4022e7153\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Committee stage of the Status of Redundancy Payments Bill, which is a member\u2019s bill in the name of Mr Peck, who is a Labour member of Parliament. May I first say to the Committee that I think that this is an abuse of member\u2019s day, because it appears that what we are actually having is a Government bill put through on a member\u2019s day. The public and those who made submissions did not expect such a silly bill to go through, and if they had known that this was happening, I think they would have lobbied more strongly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to say to members opposite is that we are dealing with a situation of insolvency, which means there is not enough money. So somebody will miss out, and what we in Parliament are deciding is who will miss out. The argument appears to be a class argument. The people who are on wages are somehow more meritorious than those who have supplied goods. I am pinching this line from Mr John Key, but he made a point to me that I think is a very good one. If one thinks about it, creditors, who are private contractors and people who have supplied goods, have done the work. He pointed out to me that, by definition, redundancy is work that has not been done. One is being compensated for something that has not happened, and may never happen. As was pointed out by Mr Adams\u2014and he is absolutely right\u2014under the present law, workers are guaranteed the first bite of the apple, which is $6,000. For a person on the average wage, that is a couple of months\u2019 income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E People not only get that guaranteed ahead of creditors, but also, if all else fails and people are unable to find jobs, Parliament offers them another safety-net\u2014welfare. But if people are contractors or suppliers of goods, they have already paid that money out, so they are lost. Can they go along to Work and Income and say that their businesses have gone insolvent? As Mr Adams said, try putting that argument to the bank and see how sympathetic it is! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThis bill is very unfair. But in addition, it is out of date. Over a third of the population now earn income not from wages but from outputs. People are in the business themselves\u2014as owner-operators of trucks, for example. They are not in the wage and salary business, but this Government is suddenly saying to them that it is going to treat them very harshly. I say to Mr Peck that if he had gone back and done some research, and had had a look at the number of people who have gone bankrupt as the result of another bankruptcy, he would have found very few wage and salary earners. He would have found many, many small businesses\u2014second only to the Inland Revenue Department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMr Peck should have done that research, but he did not. He could have done something else. He could have looked at the Government\u2019s own research, because it did a study, the Insolvency Law Review, which was put out by the civil service. That looked at whether we should alter the priority. The Government\u2019s own civil servants told it not to make this change. I ask Mr Peck whether he bothered to go and talk to those civil servants. Did he bother to read the report? Did he bother to find out what research they had done? No. This bill is trying to save a member who is facing redundancy in Invercargill. Instead, he ought to do something about schools being made redundant. That would do something for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d8fc74239304a93a50f4300a176e6b9\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Watch out, Richard!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022032ecfbdf37d4908916f90f5ee4843f0\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: There is Mr Barker calling out. What is the member\u2019s interjection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea40c320f08f416a8f0fc3a41fa8203e\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I am just saying \u201CWatch your back.\u201D; Mr Hide is watching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223abd64c390c74f77884c969eb68e237c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide most certainly is looking after my back. He is also looking after the interests of the taxpayer. I ask Mr Barker what he will say to small businesses in Hastings that find that they will get no money from the next insolvency, because he voted for this bill so that the workers can get the money. Let me make this clear to members. When one reads the bill carefully, one sees that middle management\u2014the people who made the business bankrupt and have the worst claim, morally\u2014can make a claim under this bill, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab5d94be8a024c18b8b9c969b44536f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab5d94be8a024c18b8b9c969b44536f5\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I thank members who have contributed to the debate so far, because they have raised a number of issues that set some clear, delineated points between the parties. Again, I thank Peter Brown for the work that New Zealand First has done in coming to its position on this bill, and for supporting the bill tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI want to go through one or two of the arguments that have been put up. First of all, there were the arguments from Mr Adams about sole traders, and about the position of contractors and the conditions they face as and when difficulties arise. I say to the Committee that the Government has addressed that matter, at least in part. There may be other work still to be done that I am not privy to, but I do know that the Construction Contracts Act\u2014which recently passed through the House and, if I am not mistaken, was opposed by the Opposition\u2014dealt with the issue of what happens to subcontractors when a contract gets into trouble. Essentially, that legislation attempted to deal with that particular issue upfront, before it became an issue at the end of the day. In other words, contractors would be able\u2014[Interruption]; if the member will let me finish\u2014to be paid throughout the process, and to get progress payments for the work they were doing. That was done in response to the very real and tragic circumstances many contractors have faced when they have taken on work as subcontractors on major sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI want to come to the issue of sole traders and independent contractors. I remember when we debated the Employment Relations Bill there was huge debate on the other side of the House about including anything at all about independent contractors in the industrial relations legislation. One of the things about this legislation is that it does not attempt to address the issue of small businesses that are facing problems; it is, unashamedly, to do with employees. The current Government does support the principle of pari passu, which Richard Prebble knows well. In other words, it means that like creditors should be treated equally. In this case we are dealing with employees. We are dealing with workers who have the least ability to mitigate their losses in a situation like this. The legislation will apply only to those who, as I said earlier tonight, have negotiated redundancy agreements into their employment agreements\u2014and, in the process of doing so, have probably given something away to get that consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI would hazard a guess that most people who work in mum and dad\u2019s coffee bar, or in a business with two or three employees, do not have redundancy deals. If the business goes belly up, they take their chances like everybody does at the Work and Income office and\u2014hopefully\u2014find a new job. But we are dealing with industries in which there is the possibility of sunrise and sunset. We have talked about the freezing industry. I am pleased to tell the Committee tonight that, in my electorate, people are talking about building a new freezing works. This bill will not put them off doing that. They will go ahead with it, and so they should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI want to deal with the issue Roger Sowry brought up. In 10 minutes of debate, the only issue he brought up was that of compliance costs. I just want to remind him that today it was revealed that the World Bank survey shows New Zealand to be one of the most favourable regimes in which business can operate. Indeed, in spite of the rhetoric of the Opposition, we have a very business-friendly regime, and this legislation most certainly will not cause any employers to have sleepless nights. It is true to say that, in the submission process, we heard from the Business Roundtable and Business New Zealand, which were opposed to the bill\u2014surprise, surprise\u2014but what we did not hear was any grumbling at all from other businesses that may or may not be affected by the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI finish on one point, which was made by Peter Brown in one of his contributions the last time we debated this bill. If employers do not want a redundancy deal, they should not enter into one. But if employers enter into one, they should be prepared to pay, because that is what it is about; it is about agreements between employees and their employers. That is what it is about. It is not about a Government saying what the obligations should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThis bill deals with the unhappy situation that occurs when a business finally goes under. Nobody wants to see that, but neither does anybody want to see what happens to workers when they get thrown on the scrap heap. I know that Rick Barker and others on this side of the Chamber have had to deal with what happens to people when they lose their employment through no fault of their own, and have to try to pay the mortgage and look after their families. In addition, those workers face very long stand-downs. When I was involved with the Ocean Beach freezing works redundancy, I had to deal with tradespeople who had stand-downs of 52 weeks before they could get any income. Had they not received a redundancy package along the way\u2014which, by the way, they agreed to take in a couple of hits in order to assist the company to get out of its difficulties\u2014they would not have been able to meet their commitments, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003ENot one major business has come to see me to tell me not to go ahead with this bill. They understand the Peter Brown principle: if they are going to have a deal, they are going to honour it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002230259d2362a145dab2d9ea4997d386d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230259d2362a145dab2d9ea4997d386d7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I listened with interest to the member\u2019s speech, and I think he has very largely hit the nail on the head. I listened also to the members from the National Party and ACT. They made some valid points, and I give them some credence, but I would give them even more credence if they had had the strength of character\u2014I will not say gumption\u2014to record in the commentary of the Commerce Committee that they oppose this bill. There has been not a word of opposition to this bill from anybody. The commentary states: \u201CWe\u201D\u2014that is, the whole select committee\u2014\u201Crecommend that redundancy entitlements be included within the employee priority. We consider that such entitlements form part of a contractually negotiated package for employees, which may have included trade-offs in relation to wages or salary.\u201D It goes on to state: \u201CWe considered the issues raised and on reflection felt that the financial dependence of employees on their employer is greater than that of other creditors who are likely to have many sources of income. We also recommend the exclusion of company directors and controllers from the employee priority.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe select committee got it 100 percent right. This bill is about an employment contract in total having priority\u2014not half of it, not just wages and holiday pay, but in total. Wages, holiday pay, and any redundancy agreement that is put in a contract will have the same priority. As Mark Peck just said\u2014he echoed my thoughts from before\u2014if the employer does not want to pay redundancy in such situations, he or she should have the gumption not to put a redundancy provision in the contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have been an employer in a major industry, and I know the feelings of working people when they are laid off. It is awful. I know that many workers in many industries are prepared to take a lower wage rise, or have poorer conditions, to ensure they have a redundancy package if things go bad. I heard Roger Sowry talk about creditors, and I have some sympathy for creditors, particularly those that are adversely affected by such circumstances. But they are in the minority. Many creditors have other, ongoing business at the same time, but the working people in a particular industry lose totally. Some people who have reached a rather mature age do not get any further. They have nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cb0b67b1c70483395a0128e6336a70b\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Are you supporting it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d73eb017114e3db1353252a522dc1b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Key that, yes, I am supporting it. I will stand up for the working people of this country. If somebody from this side of the Chamber is not prepared to do that, then I think that is pretty shameful. In this country, working people work pretty damn hard. I come from a country that has suffered from the actions and inaction of people who wanted demarcation, and I am absolutely proud to be part of a country where working people are prepared to put their backs in, prepared to do things, and prepared to look after the employers\u2019 interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI heard the Hon Richard Prebble say that Mr Hide is looking after the taxpayer. If he really wants to look after the taxpayer, he will support this bill. When people get a redundancy payment, they cannot go on the dole for quite some time\u2014in some cases, Mr Peck said, for 52 weeks. There is a minimum time when people who have a redundancy package cannot get the dole. That saves taxpayers\u2019 money. This bill helps the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill is genuine, and needs to be considered properly. I suggest that the select committee did that. There is no inkling in the commentary that there was any dissent at the select committee. The National Party, in particular, was well represented on the select committee; its deputy leader and the Hon Maurice Williamson were on it, and neither of them is a slouch when it comes to having a say and expressing his concerns. The ACT party was represented by Rodney Hide\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c8513e90b034b6c9bebe4043be50e97\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: He was looking after the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022210a12451b2343eb8ab6a25962e8bde5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: He was looking after the taxpayer. Is the ACT party\u2019s support split on this? I would like to think that perhaps someone in the ACT party is thinking a little bit further about the taxpayer and about the working people of this country. This bill delivers something that I think working people are entitled to. But I repeat: if employers do not want to pay out redundancy, and are nervous about having a redundancy agreement, then they should not put it in a contract. They have a choice. Employers, believe it or not, are not a pack of fools. They know what the industry is about. They know about tough negotiating. They are not bowled over by trade unionists, or by anybody else who comes into the room\u2014they do not keel over like a feather. I know that first hand, because I was one of them. For many years I was a negotiator for waterfront employers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b368b96d7011492ca6e78c8610f99af2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b368b96d7011492ca6e78c8610f99af2\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Curiously, I did the original draft of the Status of Redundancy Payments Bill. I say to Mr Prebble that the people of Tukituki\u2014which was then the seat of Hastings\u2014know full well about this bill. I told them some time ago that I would move this bill, and I am really proud to see that my mate Mark Peck is bringing it to a conclusion\u2014something that I could not do. The very reason that this bill exists is the closure of the Tomoana Freezing Works. The Tomoana Freezing Works is a very interesting example of an insolvency. I want to correct one thing that Mr Prebble has got very wrong. The workers at the Tomoana Freezing Works were offered a wage increase one year, but they said that they did not want a wage increase and would prefer a redundancy agreement. They had some discussions with the boss, and, in the end, forewent a wage increase in return for a redundancy agreement. They paid for their redundancy agreement year after year, and they lost it because of a piece of Tory legislation written by the National Party for its mates. National wrote legislation to cut out the redundancy payment that workers could get, so that creditors\u2014the National Party\u2019s mates: big business and big banks\u2014could get more in an insolvency situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIt is a well-known fact in Hastings that the workers at the Tomoana Freezing Works lost thousands of dollars in wages, holiday pay, and all the rest that was owed to them. Yet the company that financed the freezing works, Weddel, received all its money. The banks received every cent owed to them; they lost not one cent. Mr Prebble will say that this bill is bad legislation because it would give money to workers and deny it to small, legitimate business. The truth of the matter\u2014and Mr Prebble knows this\u2014is that the people who win the most in insolvency situations are the big banks. All the major trading banks in New Zealand were owed money by Weddel, and all those banks received their money in full. The only people who did not receive their money were the workers. They were restricted because a piece of Tory legislation stated that they could be paid no more than $6,000. I think that is terribly wrong, and we will change it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI congratulate Mark Peck and the Commerce Committee on their excellent report, which states that the maximum for preferential claims now will be $15,000. I would have liked that figure to be higher than it is, because if people are owed money by way of wages, then they have made their contribution. They have cut the throats of all those sheep, have dressed them, have broken them down, have put them through the freezers, and the product has been sold. Someone has benefited from that. The people who have not benefited are the people who made it happen: the workers. In my view, they are entitled to be paid for their labours. I think it is a shameful position for anybody in this Chamber to say that people who have done the work are not entitled to be paid their wages. I will argue against that anywhere. Mr Prebble is welcome to come to Hastings on any occasion and we will have a debate about it. I will get together the 1,600 or 2,000 workers who were at the Tomoana Freezing Works, and Mr Prebble can get up and say to them that the banks deserved all the money they received and that the workers deserved nothing\u2014and, in fact, that the $6,000 the workers received was too much. That is his position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Prebble that the 2,000 workers who were at the Tomoana Freezing Works do not believe that for one moment. He is trying to visit poverty upon people like them. He does not care about their lifestyle. I saw much poverty as a result of the closure of the Tomoana Freezing Works. What happened to people\u2019s lives was shattering. Richard Prebble does not care about that, as long as the banks have their money, because the banks support the ACT party. As far as I am concerned, the Labour Party is here for ordinary New Zealanders. We are here for everybody. We want to make sure that people get a fair deal, and that is why we support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI was really pleased that Peter Brown gave the speech that he did\u2014I thought it was fantastic. It showed that he is concerned about ordinary New Zealanders, and wants to make sure that their conditions are protected. This issue is not about the vested interest of the banks. If the National Party continues on that path, then I say good luck to it. It will need the Status of Redundancy Payments Bill\u2014and so will Mr Prebble, with ACT at 1 percent in the polls and falling. Mr Prebble\u2019s main supporter, Rodney Hide, told the Chamber people should vote for National, because ACT does not need any more support\u2014it is happy to go below 1 percent. I say to ACT that it will need the Status of Redundancy Payments Bill at some time in the future. Redundancy payments in this place are around 3 months\u2019 pay\u2014that is it; members cannot get any more. I say \u201Cgood on you\u201D to the ACT party, and that it should keep to that line of argument. It shows that the ACT party is a narrow, sectional-interest party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd65b851e3c54ca29228871e210e8360\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd65b851e3c54ca29228871e210e8360\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E Is it not extraordinary to hear a party that has no understanding\u2014no comprehension at all\u2014of what makes economies and communities work? That party thinks that money just grows on trees and is there for the picking. If we do not have the risk takers, if we do not have the people who are prepared to take risks and invest their money, we do not get the growth or the jobs that this Government wants to protect the whole time. I have no difficulty in telling somebody he or she is entitled to X number of dollars. That is because that person has put the effort in and should be rewarded for those efforts. But I object to that becoming a very one-sided issue. After the investment has been made, if people are going to lose their shirts this Government says it will forget about those people, their families, and the staff they employ, because it has to look after the vulnerable worker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe have just experienced probably the biggest flood disaster we have ever known in this country. I have just come from a meeting attended by growers from the Rangitikei and the Manawatu who will have absolutely no income at all this year. The potato crops have been lost, and the pumpkin and squash crops are hanging on the fences\u2014and I have seen them there. And this bill states to those people who have made the investment and got no income\u2014and who are not likely to get any income next year either, because it will probably take them 5 years to get back to square one and recover the position they would have had if the flood had not happened\u2014that the Government is not worried about them, but that the 2,500 employees who work for them will be paid. On top of that, if there is a redundancy agreement this bill states the employees are to receive redundancy payments. And then they can go down to Work and Income New Zealand and get a benefit. We say that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIf we look at the downstream effect of that, we see it will not only be on the growers\u2014the farmers, and the other producers. We may ask about the effect on the processors and transport operators. And what about the flow-on effect on a business that may well move into liquidation? We have not yet seen the worst of what will happen in those communities. We have seen the visible effects, as we do when we have earthquakes and disasters like that\u2014in this case, floods\u2014but we have not seen the downstream effects on the business people in those small communities. If they go bung\u2014if they have to close the doors\u2014and there is a redundancy agreement, the employee does not miss out. The employee will get paid. The Inland Revenue Department will get its cop, because that is the first charge that has to be paid. After that, of course, there is any redundancy agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOn page 2 of the commentary on the bill, the committee stated: \u201CWe consider the cap should be raised to $15,000. We recognise that the removal of the cap may detrimentally affect other creditors,\u201D. That is exactly what will happen to the small operators. The 297,000 small businesses out there will be carrying the can for a Government that does not appreciate or understand what makes this community work. We have all the compliance costs that Roger Sowry talked about, and now we have this sort of legislation that states that the workers will benefit from, or get something out of, an insolvency, while the creditors and the owners of the business carry the can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn earlier days I was involved with a mortgage discounting scheme. Members may remember it. Businesses got into deep trouble. I was in the Rural Bank in those days, and we were giving farmers $40,000 to walk off their farms and buy a house in town, because their liabilities were greater than their assets. They had negative equity. Now what happened to the staff\u2014to the people who had worked on those properties? Although they did not get anything, at least they had a home to live in. But the farmer who had owned that land, had put the investment in, and had raised the money through a trading bank\u2014or, in this case, through the Rural Bank, which is why I was involved\u2014lost everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022529f509666504f0d8da2038c658645ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022529f509666504f0d8da2038c658645ff\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I must confess I was disappointed with Peter Brown, and also Rick Barker, on their definition of a worker in this nation. The whole thing seems to focus back that one is only a worker in this nation if one is on somebody\u2019s payroll. Let me assure members that there are many workers in this nation who are not on payrolls, who take the risks, who go out and work for themselves. What I dislike about this entire legislation is that, yes, there are agreements for redundancy and all those things, but it is basically paying somebody for work that is not done, before it is paying somebody for work that is done. Mr Peck should not shake his head, because that is quite correct about what is happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe self-employed small-business people in this country face many challenges, even with Accident Compensation Corporation benefits. Perhaps they have had a tough year. They are just establishing a small business, yet, if they are tired and injure themselves, what is their income from that point based on? It is based on what they have earned in the previous year. If they have not earned anything as such in the previous year, they are really starving. So they have many things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E I do not want to get into a discussion on whether a person on a wage is better off than a self-employed person, because it is not an issue about that. I employ staff, I appreciate staff, and they are the backbone of any company. They are the ones who make or break the business. So I am not getting into a debate about which is better and which is not. But let me give an illustration that may show members how the thinking changes. There is not a right or wrong on this, but let us take a seed. Let us take a pine seed. A worker may see it just as a seed, so he will eat it because he will see it as food. Yet the entrepreneurs in this country will see that same pine seed, and they will decide not to eat it, but to plant it, because they see within the seed a pine tree\u2014that can produce a pine forest, that can produce a timber company, that can employ people. So it goes on. This is where we need both types of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWe heard Mark Peck mention that the Credit Contracts Act was enacted to cover payments for these small workers. That was great, but this bill now takes away all that advantage. For those workers who have come to the last part of their contract\u2014let us go to the end so the member is happy and agrees with me\u2014maybe on this invoice they have most of their materials, which is what would happen with a lot of tradespeople, and the firm goes turkey up. Right. So they have done the work and they have bought the materials. They have invested their money, but this legislation is telling them they cannot get their money for what they have done, unless redundancy has been paid out to workers who have already been paid for all the work they have done. This is to tide them over for a period, unless they get work. As has very rightly been pointed out tonight, the moment those workers are made redundant, they are able to go down and register for the unemployment benefit. Therefore, from that day on, they get income coming into their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWhat happens to the small contractor who also has a family and children to support? What happens to him? Firstly, he is devastated emotionally, because he is now in a situation where he is likely to face bankruptcy through absolutely no fault of his own, through circumstances and situations that he had absolutely nothing to do with. We talk about agreements. We talk about a redundancy agreement that is an agreement between a worker and an employee for that which they expect in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EIf we are going to have that sort of agreement, I ask Mr Peck about the agreement where a contractor quotes for a job, puts in the tender, has to be competitive, and is fighting against many others. What about that agreement, where the contractor is saying he will do the work and the client is to pay for it? There is no rationale in the argument that one agreement may stand because someone is on a payroll, but that another agreement does not matter, because the person is not on a payroll, has taken a risk, mortgaged the house, and has taken on workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00221002773ed9f94eeea18a5b9fee2e40c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221002773ed9f94eeea18a5b9fee2e40c6\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I note that the Act is to come into force 60 days after the date on which it receives the royal assent. I say to the Committee that business people in this country will think that that day is too soon. In fact, I think they will agree that any day will be too soon. I want members of the Committee to be absolutely clear about this: this is a union-driven initiative, and Mark Peck is just the errand boy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eee44b89a2b418fb684caaab33adf66\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. The member knows it is totally out of order to suggest that any member is doing anything other than representing his or her own views in this Chamber, and to suggest that anybody else is carrying the candle for any other organisation in this place is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d0872e1d174dcc9fadb461e44e1a81\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: It is incorrect to suggest that a member is being directed by outside people. But in respect of the idea that he is carrying a message, I have seen people elected to this place saying they are coming here to deliver a message. That is not out of order, and I am surprised the member is not willing to be put up as a supporter of the trade union movement. I did not object when Mr Barker claimed that the ACT party was representing bankers. It did not seem to me to be likely and I am not aware of that connection. If Mr Peck\u2019s comment is out of order, then I wonder why Mr Barker was not pulled up for his.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae391a6f13846f78cbfa2b855864de6\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Prebble tries to cunningly confuse the issue. He talks about Mr Peck carrying a message. That was not the accusation made; the accusation referred to the term \u201Cerrand boy\u201D. That implies a contract of service, a master-servant relationship\u2014the person is carrying an errand on behalf of someone and is being directed by him or her. Therefore, it is not about carrying a message; it is about acting under instructions. I have to say to you, Madam Chair, that an allegation of being under instructions and under the control and direction of someone in a master-servant relationship is totally out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bd5577a083c4d76b75b45747a765eb5\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e26a22168014491f8171e7448d320f6b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am going to rule on this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4b2aac2e37a46d7bfc06fa2d92c52c3\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c50183ccd33344729da85f77f0a2f5be\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: It won\u2019t be anything new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263bc9d9a0e8841c0aaf582a9a2b6ef1a\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a0833374d145cd866709a65d84441f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is not supposed to be on his feet. I have stood up and said I will rule on this. There will be silence while I am ruling. Mr Prebble is quite correct. The insinuation was not that the member was \u201Cunder the direction\u201D of someone, or that he was being \u201Cdirected\u201D by someone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc625e6a9a9447a9924f32c4c1cd12a\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f55fbb865d8e4876bce9c2a7af60f1c5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a new point of order? I have ruled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223221c57f77174c0792a8da4f3c1320d7\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: It is a new point of order. I am not going to revisit what you have said. When I was standing\u2014and I did seek a point of order before you stood up\u2014Labour\u2019s senior whip told me to sit down. I was asking for a point of order, and she interjected. Points of order are to be taken in silence, but the senior Government whip yelled out while I was standing and before you stood. I ask for your guidance and ruling on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287228e60dc2f43578bd01ed282409f3e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I take the point of order. I was on my feet, so I had asked the member to sit down, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534e9ee1c53c4d598c87a830cfa2994d\u0022\u003EHon Taito Phillip Field\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. As a member of this Committee, I take offence at another member being referred to, in a derogatory way, as being an errand boy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd88689d5d984404b5f94d005c579f39\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on this. I refer members to the rulings on page 47 of Speakers\u2019 Rulings. I have ruled on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6991524cf734c04ad416878dfc6c36f\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: We have established that Mr Peck is an errand boy, and when he took a call he dispelled any view at all that he knew something about business. He tried to defend the indefensible. He stood up and tried to say that workers were the only people in this country who were entitled to be secured creditors. The fantasy that Mr Brown tried to perpetrate in this Chamber was almost unbelievable. The theory that employers do not have to have a redundancy agreement is one thing, but if they tried to run a business in this country without offering their workers such an agreement then all Mr Peck\u2019s union buddies would come down on them like a tonne of bricks, threatening to put them out of business. That is an absolute fantasy, I say to Mr Brown, and he should hang his head. That just does not hang together, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn my opinion the Government has absolutely no right to get involved or to come between employer and employee negotiations or agreements. This legislation is the worst type of nanny State mentality I have encountered since I have been in Parliament. It demonstrates that this Government has a clear, anti-business bias and has a view that employers and businesses have deep pockets they can continually trawl through for easy money and cheap votes, regardless of whether they think it is right or wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe assumption is that all business is big business and has the capacity to pay, regardless of its financial position. That is not the reality\u2014[Interruption] If that member would shut up for a moment she would also learn that that is not the reality. The reality is that businesses employing 10 employees, or fewer, make up 92.5 percent of all businesses in this country, and those employing five employees, or fewer, make up 86 percent. To put it another way, those businesses are not the large meatworks that are meant to be the inspiration for this type of nonsense. In reality those businesses are the small businesses, the mums and dads\u2014I say to Mr Brown\u2014who have mortgaged their homes. They are the very people whom his party purports to stand up for and who have mortgaged their homes to take a risk to get into business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EWhat will this Government do to them now? When things go bad, what will it do to them? It will clobber them. That is going to win a lot of votes! Will those businesses be able to pay? Of course they will not. Mr Peck should think it through. There will be neither enough cash nor enough assets, because they are small businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ELet us use an example. A couple mortgage their house and raise $70,000\u2014and if I cannot get through this in the time I have left, I will take another call and continue. They start in business and things go OK for a while. They employ five people. Suddenly things go awry. Their biggest customer, who owes them a hundred grand, does not pay and suddenly the squeeze goes on. To cut this sad story short, they end up going belly up. It is a low-cost business and they have very few assets. The receivers move in and they find there is $35,000 in the bank, but this is owed to creditors\u2014that is, suppliers, who are the very people Mr Sowry mentioned. They are the electricians and the plumbers who have done the work and are expecting payment, unlike the employees who have not yet done the work. Let us think about what the definition of redundancy is. It is for loss of earnings; it is not for money that one has already earned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271e12512f8b649158aa9e593fdde978a\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226db27526fec4ed8a696cb9aa645ab3c\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: That is what one gets paid for, I say to Mr Barker. One goes to work and gets a fair day\u2019s pay for a fair day\u2019s work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa68200edd58478abf078987852b6497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa68200edd58478abf078987852b6497\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022901d523a08244414bce0e4dd8779371c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022901d523a08244414bce0e4dd8779371c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to make one further point in respect of the bill\u2014a point that Mr Peck has not addressed. When one looks at the bill, one discovers that the only employees who are excluded are those who are directors. So in many large companies\u2014the freezing works are the examples that have been given\u2014there would be senior managers who would be entitled to redundancy. I ask the Committee where the fairness is in that. I go even further than that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cac2a972d77643928d1bab170563e416\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: What was the point? I missed the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f62824ca12f4bdc8258987182835395\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The point is this: the only employees who are excluded are those who are directors, or relatives of a director. So the management of a company can get redundancy. I say this to Mr Peck: yes, there are examples where companies go broke when it is no one\u2019s fault; there has been a change of economic circumstance. It might even be the example just given by Mr Connell, where a major creditor fails to pay, but I also have to say to him that in my experience of insolvency, frequently it is the result of mismanagement\u2014of managers making bad decisions. I say to Mr Brown from New Zealand First that I know about the case, which he told us about, of the stevedoring company. Yes, what it did to them was wrong, but I also know that the employees in that case actually did have an opportunity to renegotiate, and they turned it down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhat about the creditor? The creditor does not have such an opportunity. The creditor is told a company is a good company, and has no way of knowing that it is actually going broke. The management may know it is going broke, but the creditor does not, and the creditor loses. I ask where the morality is in this. The very people responsible for the insolvency, who may have been totally irresponsible, are now going to get $15,000 guaranteed to them, and it will be money that is actually taken from small business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe only people excluded are directors. Well, they are frequently nowhere to be seen. That is a piece of nonsense, and when people get up and say: \u201CThe hard-working worker did a fair day\u2019s work, and worked hard. Why should he not be paid?\u201D, I say that, sure, there are many such people, but there are also just as many cases where the management by their actions put the company under, and now  this Parliament is saying that those people should be rewarded. Where is the justice in that? I ask Mr Peck where the morality is in it. Where is the business sense in it? It is clearly wrong, and the small business that supplied the goods and services was honest. It supplied the goods and services, and it had no chance. But the management that put the company broke, under this bill is going to be rewarded. Surely the House can see that that is just wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e59e9d45077e44af874c0bb6a5221f24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e59e9d45077e44af874c0bb6a5221f24\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E This has been a very interesting debate. Firstly, let me respond to one of the points made by Brian Connell. I have to say that I found his presentation very disappointing. To claim that people who are owed wages and owed holiday pay have not earned it is just ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378b72c498f94915bddde813d7dd905c\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I never said that people who were owed wages or holiday pay were not entitled to that. That is misleading the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fde6c515e537471bba2e8ce1cb4870c1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. It is a debatable point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d44782749e8459a9b5d21473db8b8d5\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to repeat the point. I listened to what Mr Connell said, and I am happy to get the Hansard out. I want to make it clear that he made it very clear to this House that people who were owed money and would benefit from this bill, had not earned it. That is what he was implying, and I say to Brian Connell that that is simply not correct. These people have earned it. It is money that they are owed, wages they have not been paid, and holiday pay they have not been paid. They have earned it, and if Brian Connell wants to stand in this Chamber and say that people who have unpaid wages and outstanding holiday pay have not earned it, well, I am happy to argue with him at any place about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAs to the point that was made by United Future as to why other people should not be paid, and why these people, the workers, should get some money\u2014which ties in, really, I guess, with the point that Richard Prebble is making\u2014the fact of the matter is that when a business goes bust it is unusual for it to have sufficient money to pay everybody. That is why we have a problem; not everybody can be paid. Richard Prebble\u2019s argument is that the line for people who are owed wages and holiday pay should be moved back as far as it can, contracted as far as it can, so it leaves more money for other people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EHe makes a case for the small-business person who is a small contractor, but I make the point to Richard Prebble that the vast majority of money that is taken out of those situations of redundancy is to the banks. I am not particularly down on banks, but I want to give him just two examples. The first one I have spoken about is Tomoana Freezing Works. The banks got every cent they were due. I have got 2,000 people in my constituency who are owed money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289266fdbe5bb4e40bd703506ef6b849c\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: Thirty-five million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc0572687744c27b6870cb855fab8c7\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: They are owed $35 million. That is what was owed to the people of Hastings, in the area of my electorate, and the banks, nearly all overseas-owned, got the lot. Richard Prebble says that is a bad thing. It is bad luck for the people of Hastings, good luck for the banks, and he supports that. He does not want to see any redress. Well, I say to Richard Prebble that I am on the side of my constituents. I want my constituents, in any future redundancy, to get their money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc397486ed7849c8a8c6170c5381a134\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: What did the banks do wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d57d51f3f0b04899a80b91595db7242e\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The banks knew exactly what was going on in the case of Weddel Tomoana. They had a person in that head office every day. They knew all its accounts. They could have put that company under, any time they wished, and they did not. They decided they could not. Instead of putting any company down, which they could have\u2014AFFCO, or otherwise\u2014they in fact decided to down Weddel, and my constituents lost $35 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ESo what we are deciding here is where the balance lies. ACT wants to cut the workers back more and more. The National Party wants to cut the workers back more and more. That is their traditional ground\u2014beating up on unions and beating up on working people. They realise; they think there are no votes for them in this, but they do not care. All they are interested in is big business. They see that if the line has shifted from $6,000 to $15,000 in the small pool of money that is outstanding, then the workers are going to get some more, and some of the banks are going to get less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWell, I have to say to them, that is just tough. We are entitled to draw the line, and the proposal to this House is to make it $15,000 rather than $6,000. As for what Paul Adams is saying about the other small-business people, well there is a difference here, Paul. These people have a contract. The contract says that in the event that they are laid off\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c42153b0df14325bf0a242bd8ed3bbe\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I understand that it is a convention in this Chamber that members are referred to by their correct names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a139d0386dbf40a59632c5e2c16f919e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is quite correct. The member will refer to members by their correct names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b32e8552f224ce990dad4908a55f7d9\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; I am sorry. The member did not take offence but I accept the chastising from the Chair. The point I want to make is that there is a contract here. The contract says\u2014and I give the member the example\u2014that the workers at Tomoana Freezing Works went without a wage increase in return for redundancy agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWhat that member is effectively saying is that there should be no sanctity of the contract. There is a contractual agreement. Other people who enter into business arrangements with them might have a different contract of agreement. They might be unsecured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279b0f6b7e6954df6a8e5d88b23be1a79\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What about the creditor\u2019s contract?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca9e8e9893746c5b0f75cc2e30d3d15\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E:  Well, if that is what they have done their business on\u2014being unsecured\u2014that is the way they have conducted the business. But in terms of the workers, they have decided to negotiate an agreement that has a redundancy clause, and I would have thought that United Future would argue in favour of the sanctity of the contract and said that where a contract exists it should be honoured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffaa1c270f114f1cbed6014992c59f4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffaa1c270f114f1cbed6014992c59f4d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take up a few of the points raised by various members. First of all, I would like to correct any impression I gave to Paul Adams that only employees are working people. I accept the point he made. I know that self-employed people are working people and that they work very hard, and I hope the member takes my correction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI would like to talk about the people affected by the flood, which was an issue that Lindsay Tisch raised. If I heard him correctly, he is saying that employees of a small business in one of the flood-stricken towns will have lower priority than a contractor who lives miles away and is not affected by the flood. The flood victim is going to lose his or her job, yet Mr Tisch says that any payments made should go to the contractor, who might live in safe surroundings quite some miles away. I find that to be an unusual argument, to say the least.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EMr Connell raised the point that all employers are subjected to heavy-handed tactics by union officials. He seemed to imply that. I think that, from memory, only about 20 percent or thereabouts of working people in this country are in a union. The vast majority of people who work for small businesses are not unionised, and in all probability they do not have a redundancy clause in their employment agreements. So I do not know how he comes to the conclusion that small businesses will be highly saddled with union officials coming in and demanding this and demanding that, when in fact no such clause will exist in most of the agreements. Nobody will come in after the event and say that the business should have had this, and because it should have had it, it has to have it, and has to pay out accordingly. I find the argument a little bit unusual, to say the least.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn terms of the larger employers who do have a unionised workforce, to suggest that the employers are weak-kneed or they cannot look after their own interests is rather insulting. I can only tell Mr Connell that if they are that bad, I had better get in amongst them, because there is still some steel in my spine. I had better get back there pretty damn fast, because if employers cannot front up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b93ebecee0e41c5984f1adda906aacd\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Intimidated!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253f2222edede48a696f80316d2a2e385\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Intimidated? I can recall employers who were so tough that they would make the lot of us here look like a bunch of juveniles. Do not go away with the impression that employers in this country are easy meat for anybody! They are hard-working, but they are also hard-nosed. So members should not think that union officials walk into the room and these guys fall over and say: \u201CWhat do you want? Where do we sign?\u201D. It is a long way from that, I can assure members. As I say, for many years I was an employer in the association of waterfront employers, and we had some right stoushes, I can tell members. I do not think the unions got terribly much that they did not have to work damn hard for. Equally, we employers achieved some quite workable agreements as a result of those stoushes. It is two-way traffic and a two-way dialogue. It is very demanding at the time, but at the end of the day virtually all agreements are like that; there might be a bit of rough and tumble in getting there, but they are agreements. I have yet to meet an employer who has had a gun put to his or her head, literally, or had his or her arm squeezed up his or her back, or anything like that, and signed an agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2905a4d4c554c259f0e5f463839abb7\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c063435ab0f64e61a5b7de32b8dab29e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member has?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b55a395a20644fe80e4625986f60873\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Most certainly, and on the waterfront, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222771a1f29f934f52bf96366127e90003\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I tell that member that the waterfront unionists used various tactics, but I have never seen them go to the extent of the physical action of putting people\u2019s arms up their back, or whatever. I tell Mr Prebble that some of the employers in the days that he is talking about were what I call phoney employers. They did not actually employ the labour; they represented the shipowner who put the ship through the port, and they bowed to pressure that they should not have bowed to. But since port reform, where I had a positive role, things have changed quite dramatically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ece7b0367a04416971eef7a1997d503\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I had a minor one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a3cfb28551945b78ad0612a377f16fe\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Prebble did have a minor one. In fact, I remember advising people on what they should say to him when he was the Minister. I was quite pleasantly surprised when they came back with the right answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u0022d47b7b4943784695bd5f5442d4b79a31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d47b7b4943784695bd5f5442d4b79a31\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I am going to make a contribution because I have been listening to this debate, and from the sound of, in particular, contributions made by Mr Sowry and a few others, one would think that this bill is in relation to something that has not been agreed to in negotiations between employers and their workers. What we are talking about here is a situation where a redundancy package has been properly negotiated to be part of the terms of employment of workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003EI want to take up, first of all, the implication made by Mr Sowry that redundancy payments would send a business belly up. Well, that is just not right. What we are talking about here is, in fact, a business that has already gone belly up and is facing closure, with the workers losing their jobs, and with the employer looking at honouring what has already been negotiated and agreed to in terms of a redundancy package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003EI want to make another point in relation to some of the comments that have been made about workers having immediate access to welfare payments after a closure. In my experience that is certainly not the case. There is a stand-down period where holiday pay has to be taken into account, and other moneys that have been paid out to workers have to be taken into account. In some cases there is quite a lengthy stand-down period for those workers before they get payment of a benefit or anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003EI can appreciate the arguments that have been put forward by some members in relation to the plight of small business. Sometimes those hard-working people have taken a risk in terms of investment. I take on board the points that have been made by Paul Adams. There are a lot of hard-working New Zealanders who make a commitment and a sacrifice in starting a business, and that needs to be acknowledged. Nobody on this side denies that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003EWhat we are talking about is the situation that prompted this bill. It has been aptly described by my colleague Rick Barker, and in the speeches made by my colleague Mark Peck, and I want to congratulate him on sponsoring the bill. It is a situation of closure where a significant workforce is made redundant, and where small communities in rural areas are affected. We have had some colleagues on the National side talk about farmers and their situation. Often these huge redundancies have affected rural towns and farmers. Some of those farmers who have been made redundant have been reliant on working in the meat industry during the killing season to supplement their earnings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003EI agree with the points made by Rick Barker in relation to the Tomoana Freezing Works closure, but I also want to identify with the Patea Freezing Works closure because that was a classic example of a whole community that was affected by redundancy. Those workers losing their livelihoods turned that town into a ghost town. The loss of jobs and loss of income affected their children and families, and also affected the whole community of Patea. Other small businesses in Patea were detrimentally affected as a result of that closure. When we talk about employers, under this bill, having to give workers priority where a redundancy provision has already been agreed to, we are taking about the survival of small communities. A lot of small businesses in a small, rural town like Patea are very much dependent on the income of workers. That is an aspect that members also have to take into account. It is not a simple question of our just viewing this matter from a small-business point of view, or from a business point of view; it is also a question of how it affects other New Zealanders\u2014ordinary, working New Zealanders. Closure not only has an effect on families and children; it has a downstream effect on communities and on other small businesses in those small towns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003EThat is where I think the issue of fairness has to come in. We cannot be one-eyed, because nobody is not going to suffer as a result of a closure of a business. I think all people in small businesses\u2014management as well as staff\u2014suffer as a result of that situation, and I think it is very, very important to have a balanced approach, to consider what is fair and what priority should be given to workers, and to consider the downstream effect that I have been talking about. I think this bill has a balanced approach and a fair approach to the issue of redundancy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291f92bc3713747c4bf2a721733f98d9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab68c2e50db74e3fa1c172c5ec8d7b20\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Insolvency Act 1967\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022eefd71c665e64cb58156f28f0ee0d8b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eefd71c665e64cb58156f28f0ee0d8b8\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 amends the Insolvency Act in a number of ways. Essentially, it deals with issues in the Insolvency Act, providing for no lien over a bankrupt\u2019s books. It deals with priorities, and makes some consequential appeals as a result of the amendments that are made, as well. The importance of this is to establish redundancy as part of the priority for employee entitlements. Prior to that, employee entitlements were basically wages, holiday pay, and other incidentals that might have been accrued during the time of employment. But, as has been discussed in the currency of this debate, many employees in the process of negotiating their redundancy deals trade away things to obtain that little bit of security at the time that a company might be going through hard times and subsequently folding up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003ERick Barker talked a lot about Tomoana Freezing Works, and I have talked about Ocean Beach freezing works. There are a myriad of freezing works in this country that have been affected. I thank Phillip Field for raising the issue of Patea. Having come from Taranaki myself, I know that the Patea community was absolutely rent asunder when that particular freezing works closed. Nobody wishes that on anybody or on any community, and nobody wishes redundancy on anybody, either. Nobody wants to see a firm fail and go under, but that is the cut-throat nature of business, and, as I mentioned earlier in a contribution, in my electorate there is talk about building another freezing works. I have to say that that concerns the Alliance freezing company, quite seriously. It has been through major reorganisation, and, having had to cut chains, to close Ocean Beach Freezing Works, and to bring in double shifts to be able to process the stock, now faces the establishment of new chains. I do not know\u2014other speakers might want to elaborate\u2014when a new chain has been built in New Zealand in the freezing industry for quite some period of time. These are the pressures that go on businesses as they face their normal business. So including the redundancy settlement as part of the employee priorities simply means that that part of the wage and salary package is protected to a maximum of $15,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003ELet us go back to the situation at Tomoana Freezing Works. We are talking about $35 million across 2,000 workers. That is a heck of a lot more than $15,000. That is a dead loss to those employees. Those particular workers were totally unable to do anything about looking after their mortgages and their families. I am sure Rick Barker can tell the Committee some of the stories. Workers are very reluctant to come forward to tell us the difficulties that they face when they are trying to look after their families on no income. It is highly personal, and highly embarrassing to them, and a little bit of decency about protecting those particular matters is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThe other thing that this particular part of the bill does is ensure that there are periodic adjustments and it provides the mechanism for the periodic adjustment to occur. That will mean that the House will not have to revisit this matter again once this particular legislation has been passed. It will mean, as a result of cost-of-living increases, that, in time, these amounts will be reviewed against that and increased by Order in Council. That will mean that this will not diminish over time and will not devalue as a result of inflation. Those workers who subsequently find themselves in a position later on in their working lives to lose income are able to pick up their redundancy payments at a rate more appropriate than perhaps the $15,000 rate. Again, I thank the select committee for the work it did, and I thank the submissioners who submitted on this part of the bill. I say to the Committee that this legislation is moving this part of our industrial law into the 21st century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea659988131544ada1c7121f0be8b19f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea659988131544ada1c7121f0be8b19f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Most members of this Committee can understand why Mr Peck has such an interest in redundancy, and even have some sympathy. Members may wonder what Mr Peck has done to deserve Trevor Mallard and his Sonny Bolstad impressions down in Invercargill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on just two points before I move into what I think is the main issue here. The first is the comment that Mr Barker made that somehow the ACT party\u2019s position was driven off the bankers supporting the ACT party. It may come as quite a shock to Mr Barker, who may not know who funds the Labour Party, but if he looks at financial contributions from financial institutions he will see quite clearly that the largest benefactors were the Labour Party and the National Party\u2014not the ACT party. He might want to check that out. [Interruption] It is a matter of public record, and if the Minister does not understand that, then he should have a look at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make concerns the issue that Mr Tisch raised regarding growers and how their losses will be suffered, and I think it is testimony to how the Labour Government sees self-employed people. The growers in the Manawatu, Rangitikei, and the Horowhenua who are losing their entire livelihoods and will not be protected by some sort of union-driven status of redundancy bill, are being offered three-quarters of the unemployment benefit by this Government. They are not even good enough to get the unemployment rate\u2014they are being offered three-quarters. That is what the Labour Government thinks of self-employed people\u2014when they are really down as a result of the flood they get three-quarters of the unemployment rate. It is a disgrace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on a point made by Mr Prebble in his speech in relation to the fairness of these redundancies and the fairness of this legislation. The logic behind this bill is so silly that one would imagine that nobody has taken a reasonable time to look at it. I want to make this first\u2014the first and most obvious point. There is nothing stopping any employee in New Zealand from having this treatment currently. Employees can negotiate the position. They are absolutely free to negotiate this position with employers today\u2014and they do not do it. Why do they not do it? They do not do it because, firstly, they do not see the value in it doing it, and, secondly, employers understand what the impact will be on the banks\u2019 capital structures. The second point I want to make in relation to fairness is that if anybody can see that a redundancy is likely to happen, if anybody can see that a collapse is likely to happen, it is the people inside the company. It is not people outside the company. We have all had experiences of going round to large employers in New Zealand, and we can recognise when the writing is on the wall. So if people need protection, then it is small businesses that operate with those, and customers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI make one final point. We have heard quite a lot of debate about the issue related to small businesses, but no mention has been made of customers who pre-pay for activities with a company that goes broke. There is a large group of New Zealanders who will be adversely affected. However, I want to speak tonight mainly about what this bill will do to the capital structure of investing in New Zealand and in companies. One of the great tragedies of this bill relates to whether New Zealand is committed to getting back into the top half of the OECD\u2014and we know that the Government does not like to talk about that. We know the Government has abandoned that proposition. Treasury tells us day after day, as it tells the Government, that the Government\u2019s policies are anti-growth, and that they will not deliver higher living standards for New Zealand any time before the 21st century\u2014unless, with the good grace of the people of New Zealand, we can put a National-ACT Government in power, which I have no doubt will occur very soon. Very importantly, we need entrepreneurial activities, and we need banks to want to invest in small businesses. The first thing this bill does is make small companies that interact with large companies more vulnerable. That is exactly what this bill does. It makes them more vulnerable and less likely to get a payout than anybody else. Banks will automatically adjust their risk profile if this legislation goes through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7a0c0bae3a4e3fbd1cf447c485127d\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230b2466f4baa4a91985ccd533ea2a187\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member says \u201CRubbish\u201D, but he has not actually spoken to the banks about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00228c083c17c6134c31a30da7c7d76bc0a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c083c17c6134c31a30da7c7d76bc0a7\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 sets out a new order of payment. I have a question for Mr Peck, if he is able to answer it. It would appear from my reading of clause 8 that one could actually sign a redundancy agreement the day before a company goes insolvent, and, as a result of that, the employee would immediately get a credit. Is that correct? If so, then we are enabling people to \u201Cdefeat the creditors\u201D, and that is regarded as very naughty. In fact, a person can go to jail for that. It appears to me that if the manager of a company realises that the firm is going broke, then, provided that person is not a director, he or she ought to negotiate a redundancy agreement with himself or herself. He or she probably can, being the manager. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ENothing I have seen in the bill stops a manager of a company, provided he or she is not a director, from negotiating with himself or herself, signing an immediate redundancy, which would be for only $15,000, then going to the liquidator and putting the company into liquidation. Is that correct, or have I misread it? It may be, on reading section 104(1)(d)(iv) in clause 8(1), that it has to be 4 months before a company is put into liquidation. However, I would like an answer to that question. Members have been telling us how carefully they have studied it, so Mr Brown could tell me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EAre we really allowing the manager of a company to do this\u2014a manager who may have made the company insolvent through his own misdeeds? Perhaps the manager gambles and drinks, and is told by his accountant that he has to put the company into liquidation. The manager may say: \u201CNick, I\u2019ve just got to do one thing first. I need to negotiate myself a $15,000 redundancy. Just wait a second while I sign the agreement, then I\u2019ll put the company into liquidation.\u201D Are we seriously doing that? If we are, I assure the Committee that what I am describing will not be a joke; it will happen. Of course it will happen. Human beings are not perfect, but they are very ingenious. If the incentive is for a manager to write himself or herself a $15,000 redundancy agreement, because he or she will get priority over everyone else\u2014and he or she will get paid\u2014then that is exactly what will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhere is the commercial logic in that? Where is the morality of it? What is the point of us having an Insolvency Act that states it is a criminal offence for a person to defeat the creditors when we then put up a measure that enables people who put a company into liquidation to give themselves $15,000 redundancy? I would like that simple question answered. Am I reading it correctly? If I am not, what is the situation? It would appear to me that a redundancy deal signed the day before a company is put into liquidation would get priority. If that is so, then there is nothing to stop a manager, if he or she has the proper authority, from signing himself or herself a $15,000 redundancy deal. How can we possibly think that is fair law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00225f5ba641c1504a8cb6f6c7e44b7bea5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f5ba641c1504a8cb6f6c7e44b7bea5a\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E Normally I start my speech in these debates by saying that I am pleased to take a call, but I am not. I feel compelled to take a call, because I think that this legislation is some of the worst that has been perpetrated in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn my last call I was speaking about insolvency and working through an example that I did not conclude, so I will take the opportunity to do that now. Members will remember that I was saying that the receivers had moved in and that there was $35,000 in the bank that was owed to creditors. Under this legislation, the employees are owed $75,000, not to mention their superannuation, holidays, and wages owing\u2014and I would have made that point more carefully had Mr Barker allowed me to. Thirty-five thousand dollars does not cover the redundancy liability, so mum, dad, and the kids have their house sold from underneath them. It is worth $150,000. The employees, who did none of the risk taking, will divide up the spoils. They will get their wages, holiday pay, etc., and now they will get $15,000 to boot. Wages, holiday pay, and redundancy sees them get $17,000 each, and on a rough calculation, a grand total of $85,000. There is a shortfall of $50,000 owed to the employees, so they will be working to sell up mum and dad, as well. It will pit Kiwi against Kiwi, and mum and dad against mum and dad. The bank takes the balance to cover the loan of $70,000, and that is fair and reasonable, because it is protecting shareholders\u2019 funds\u2014the same people, the mums and dads, who make deposits. Seventy thousand dollars, plus $50,000, for the quicker people in the House, is $120,000, a positive balance of $30,000 with regard to the value of the house. Moneys owed to other creditors amount to $35,000; therefore, mum and dad are now left penniless, if not bankrupt, and the employees have the option of either going on to the dole, or working elsewhere. That sounds really fair, does it not? It sounds very fair, indeed. Well, I do not think it does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI shall now respond to the comments made by Mr Field. I thought that his contribution was very level headed, and I commend him for it. I tell Mr Field that the workers and the mums and dads who run a business are equal. Why should we cherry pick? Why should some be more equal than others? Because mum and dad form a business or incorporate, they are just workers who are deriving their income in a slightly different way. This legislation will not encourage people to take risks. Essentially, we will end up getting a very risk-averse culture where it is just not seen as being worthwhile to put up one\u2019s house as a stake in order to raise money to get into business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMr Key raised the issue of the cost of capital. I ask Mr Peck: what will this do to the cost of capital? I would like him to take a call to answer that question. I do not think he really knows the answer, so it is probably unfair to ask him. However, I will give him the answer. This bill will increase the cost of capital, because banks will not have the same level of security\u2014and banks price for risk. The other thing the bill will do is remove capital out of the marketplace. Banks will simply say: \u201CThe deal is going to be shorter, so we\u2019ll call up money sooner, or we\u2019re just not prepared to risk, at all.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThis legislation will do immense harm, and for the life of me I cannot understand why Mr Peck and his Government colleagues cannot heed these warnings. They are not coming just from me. The Status of Redundancy Payments Bill was opposed\u2014and Mr Peck says by just a few\u2014by Business New Zealand, the Financial Services Federation, the New Zealand Business Roundtable, the Joint Insolvency Committee of the New Zealand Law Society and the Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand, Federated Farmers, and I shall stop there. Does anyone in the Chamber actually support this legislation, other than unionists? Interestingly enough, the Council of Trade Unions submission was one of six in favour of the bill. Others expressing similar sentiments came from the Rail and Maritime Transport Union, from the New Zealand Nurses Organisation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022887c12166d8747c99107b849d7368023\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022887c12166d8747c99107b849d7368023\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E The point I would like to pick up on\u2014and I agree that the Hon Taito Phillip Field did make some very good and sensible points in his speech\u2014is that when a large business fails in a small community it can also bring devastating results. I agree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EFrom United Future\u2019s perspective\u2014and we are a true centrist party, so we do try to see both sides of the spectrum and try to come with a common-sense middle ground\u2014what we need to understand is that big business is great. We would agree with that, and we would support it. But a big business does not just arrive all of a sudden, except in some cases when it comes in as an overseas entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E But take, for example, Stephen Tindall and The Warehouse. That business started in a building that we once shared. He started with only one or two employees and the business gradually grew. Any sporting club that fails to cultivate the youth, and stays only with older people eventually dies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EIn this country we need to see the importance of small business. I take the Hon Richard Prebble\u2019s point that over one-third of our population earns their money from outputs now. That will only increase. Much as the Government says that we are the least regulated, it is the type of regulations that we are talking about here that is putting the brakes on small business. It is making people less likely to want to employ staff. They would rather employ contractors, because they do not want to deal with all these issues. I think that, as MPs, we have a responsibility to make a fairer level playing field that will not only support people who want to be wage earners but equally will support people who are prepared to take a risk, put their house on the line, and give it a go. Because if we fail to support those people, we will not have the Stephen Tindalls in this nation: the people who are prepared to put everything on the line to serve the population of New Zealand. A business is only there to serve its customers and it rises and falls on its merits and ability to serve its customers well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWe create difficulties when we continue to bring in legislation that will affect those entrepreneurs who want to go out and work under contract. We say to them that we will give support to the contracts that wage earners have, but the contracts that contractors may have with a business in order to get paid will be put aside. Contractors will wait in line after the Inland Revenue Department, after the banks, and after the redundancy payments. As we have heard a few times, we are not talking about workers\u2019 wages or holiday pay\u2014nobody would want to restrict those payments. But redundancy clauses can be put into many packages, and whichever way it is viewed, it is payment for work that has not been done, whereas possibly one-third of the workforce are on an outputs-based income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EUnited Future cannot in any way see the fairness or merit in paying people for work that has not been done, ahead of paying people for work that has been done. Any leader who does not base his or her efforts on truth, compassion, and mercy really is in trouble. I seriously ask Mr Peck, and those who are supporting this bill, to ask themselves whether they are showing compassion and mercy to the entrepreneurs of this country who lay everything on the line to help other people get work. All they are asking for is fair pay for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u00224d82ab859aac4c3f9a01f151b3f8f65e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d82ab859aac4c3f9a01f151b3f8f65e\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to follow the United Future party. I note the member said it is the true centrist party, and it is\u2014it controls half a percent either side of the centre, and long may it continue to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThis bill is a terrible bill. We are debating Part 2, and all of it is new. The entire part was introduced at the select committee. It did not form part of the original bill. Mr Peck said that people did not come along to the select committee and argue and make submissions, so on that basis we should put the bill through. I say to Mr Peck that the public and business sector at large did not believe that the Government would pass this bill. They did not think it would be as stupid as that. I challenge the Government to send this bill back to the select committee, adopt it as a Government bill, and tell the people out there who will be really hurt by this bill, that the Government is prepared to listen to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EBut the Government will not do that, even though it knows that lots of small-business people stand to lose the shirts off their backs. That is the reality of this bill. Any small business that has paid out for goods or services, and provided them to a large company that then becomes insolvent, will go to the wall, whilst the workers get their redundancy. That tells us what Labour\u2019s priorities are. Its priorities are not about creating wealth. Labour does not give a fig for small businesses out there that are providing services to larger businesses. This bill offers them no protection\u2014none at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecf2e7d834834e5bb9f3793c388dbfbf\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8cbbd73b09943bea9b9fdcf53b21e43\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Rick Barker says that it is not designed to. That is fine. So small businesses will go to the wall? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003ENow I come to New Zealand First. I cannot understand why that party is supporting this bill. It does not fit at all with the leader of New Zealand First who has championed small business during his time in Parliament. How does New Zealand First argue that this bill is good for a small business that is providing goods and services to a large business, when it places it at risk? I cannot see how New Zealand First, which normally claims a lot more common sense on these issues, can support a bill that puts lots of small businesses at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c5e2bb6a06a4b59892ac12e58ff4081\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e525e5aa064cb9a269a9809d6d7ddf\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: That is an intelligent interjection from the member. Let us consider a rest home that goes into receivership. It happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b733be19351433293786799d0d12a0a\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: A who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb673f64f08411f8e9eb4db3b61c1a0\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: A rest home. Is the member aware of rest homes? The staff component is about 40 percent of the wage bill. The rest home has a redundancy agreement, so that all the staff\u2014all the nurse aides\u2014walk away with a couple of thousand dollars redundancy. Who misses out? The suppliers do. The people who are owed money for supplying food, security services, checking alarm systems, and all those personal services, miss out\u2014lots of tiny companies and small businesses. No Labour members have got to their feet to say they think that workers deserve more than small businesses. Why does Mr Barker think that all the little businesses that were providing services\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8ae9b915fce48e4a8ef6ccbfbc75e41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8ae9b915fce48e4a8ef6ccbfbc75e41\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First): \u003C/span\u003EI will try to answer some of the questions that have been raised in this portion of the debate. Firstly, the Hon Richard Prebble gave the scenario of a manager who, knowing the company is about to go belly up the next day, signs up his own redundancy agreement, which is capped. This bill includes holiday pay, wages, and redundancy. The $15,000 cap does not relate just to redundancy; it relates to everything. If a manager is as desperate as that\u2014and I do not know a manager who would be inclined to do that, but I accept that the honourable member might know of somebody\u2014then I am prepared, as we are in the Committee stage, to support an amendment to this bill that will address that concern, and exclude directors and company managers who are likely to do such a thing. I am certain someone could work out a little bit of wording, and New Zealand First will support a clause preventing a manager from ripping off the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn terms of the point raised by the Hon Roger Sowry, I say to that member that we are talking in the main about employees of large companies. Not many small businesses employ unionised workforces that have redundancy agreements, but there are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4932cc564bf401d99b026db7a176003\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll wait for the next bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228500cf1424464e81b154257769fe4acb\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We will wait for the next bill, but we are talking about this bill at this point in time, and the member should not get confused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022143f759edab345b68dea401a5fd1740a\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Look ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfd0d4936a6c4353a69044d4ae3f0ccb\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member has to be kidding. Does he think ahead? That is why Don Brash this morning, or this afternoon, was in Katikati. He blocked off the road and the car-parks for a paltry little crowd. Is that thinking ahead? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65018c9357d47c9925167b9af7ad491\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: There were 600 people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225edb80f9e881422cb5a775548a8dd515\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I would not bet on that. [Interruption] I do not mind those guys chipping in, but it is a little bit disconcerting when they are seated behind me. Never mind, they want to have something to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe know that with many redundancy agreements signed up in this country, the working people, the employees, have made some sacrifice to get a redundancy agreement. In essence, it is like an insurance policy. We know that over the years things have gone wrong in many industries. I asked the library to research where there have been major redundancies. The library gave a summation of such a size it is hard to collate, including the meat industry, sharemarket industry, clothing industry, car industry, airline industry, and shipping industry, as well as stevedoring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf the National Party wants to dismiss that information so frivolously, and as Mr Connell earlier suggested that this bill was opposed by a number of submitters, then I ask those members why they did not oppose it at the Commerce Committee. I ask National Party members why they signed up to this clause in the commentary on the bill: \u201CWe recommend that redundancy entitlements be included within the employee priority.\u201D In other words, the total contract is treated as one. \u201CWe consider that such entitlements form part of a contractually negotiated package for employees, which may have included trade-offs in relation to wages or salary.\u201D That is what National Party members signed up to, at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222fa37adf4434b55a5ebc2877f77b6ff\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Were they actually there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea7ed6398900411bba32986182f2db69\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question. But the document tells me there were two National representatives on the select committee: the Hon Maurice Williamson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e3f39f6cdb64a5490169f0db3112849\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Maurice Williamson would not have been there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225affdec0146448fdb91085930d8d4be2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014he might not have been there; the member thinks not\u2014and their current deputy leader, Gerry Brownlee. He might have had other things on his mind. [Interruption] Well, if that is supposedly the Government-in-waiting, God help this country. If that is what those members do with one little bill like this\u2014sign up to it, not know what they are doing, and not turn up at the select committee\u2014then God help this country if they ever come to the forefront of it. If that is true, that is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill puts working people\u2019s contracts to the fore, and that is a fair way of handling things, in the view of New Zealand First. We support this bill and will be pleased to see it go through the House in short order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00224f17d3b1c2c34933b34ccdd3d6a5291b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f17d3b1c2c34933b34ccdd3d6a5291b\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Peter Brown had some very good advice for the National Party and the people it claims to represent. It is very simple: \u201CIf you don\u2019t like it or agree with it, don\u2019t sign up for it.\u201D It is as simple as that\u2014even Richard Prebble would agree with it. But if they sign up for it and agree with it, then they should be bound by it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThere was a very interesting presentation given recently by Mr Roger Sowry. I note Mr Sowry is the previous chair of the Commerce Committee. This bill has come back from that committee, but do I see any dissenting report on it from Mr Roger Sowry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a25522952e64eceb088fe300539f171\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It is true I am now the previous deputy chair of the Commerce Committee, and I want to thank Labour members for voting for me for that role. But in fact I was not on the committee at all when the bill was before it. I wish I had been, because National would have opposed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bb1c5bffd9f44bc8c5af2351c216ff3\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226179a667304844f69aeb80ba96d1bb3b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order and we will not get into a debate on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bba4249e2fb413a8884a018d9bd65f6\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I should be protected from spurious points of order, and that is a debatable point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAnyway, I want to make the other point. The deputy chair of the Commerce Committee was Gerry Brownlee, that outspoken, bombastic deputy leader of the National Party. He speaks out volubly on M\u0101ori affairs. He does not know anything about that area, but that does not stop him from speaking out on it. But when it comes to this very key, heartfelt issue for the National Party, what do members see from that party? Silence. I cannot find a dissenting opinion at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThat does not surprise me, because I listened to one of the presentations by Roger Sowry before, and he talked about the Lakeview Farm Fresh meat-processing plant being in Dannevirke. Well, I have news for Mr Sowry; it is in the Otaki electorate. No wonder he was not elected, but defeated, time after time. He does not know where these places are. Has Mr Sowry ever visited the electorate, or does he just put his name on the ballot paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602372ecf1d64c9485eb16bcbf41f038\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s passed through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3d454ca6154e189e08bf6e3ad9e4a5\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am reliably told that he has passed through it three times, while going to Auckland. He might have stopped for a cup of tea at Levin. Anyway, I say to Mr Sowry that Lakeview Farm Fresh is at Lake Horowhenua in the Otaki electorate; it is not in Dannevirke at all. How does that give credibility to Mr Sowry\u2019s opinion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EBut he asks a fair question: \u201CWhat about small business?\u201D. Well, what about small business? I say to members that this is not about being anti - small business, pro-this, or anti-that. What this is all about is that a long time ago, for the amount of money guaranteed for wages and holiday pay, which is owed\u2014which Brian Connell said was not worked for and not earned, but I will put that aside for the moment\u2014the bar was set much higher. It was the Tory party that cut the level back. The Tory party did that\u2014but it is nothing unusual. The Tory party cut penalty rates for workers, did it not? It had gone around before the election and said there would be no cuts to penalty rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce3328e04c4489faa06fb12c1baedda\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member he has had more than half of his time, and it would be nice if he would come to Part 2 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022909c83ba16ac47ebad353cb5dce5a0c6\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Given that your predecessor has on many occasions ruled that parties have to be called by their correct names, I would appreciate your upholding the same ruling in this Committee. The name is the National Party, and we are proud of that. The Tory party is in another part of the world, but unfortunately the member does not seem to understand that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242736f82a0cb42a7a54da0a5c2d9e48b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e80225afe242288f52598b88d2e556\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Part 2 is very interesting, because it talks about priorities and allocation. When we talk about priorities, we can see what National Party priorities are about. Those members want to maintain the boundary so that when there is a diminished amount of money left over to pay out, most of it to goes to business. They want most of it to go to banks. They do not care about the ordinary working people who have sweated and slaved over those jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E When a business goes broke people not only lose their income; they lose their livelihood. Their life\u2019s work could be put into those businesses. In the example of a rest home, which Mr Sowry talked about, a supplier like a butcher might turn up and put over a few shanks of meat, but that butcher will be serving many other rest homes. But for people working in the rest homes, their jobs are their full-time jobs and their only jobs, and their livelihoods are at stake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWe say the bar that was reduced by the previous National Government to a miserable $6,000 should be increased to $15,000. As Peter Brown put it very well: when someone has signed up for a redundancy agreement, we believe in the sanctity of that contract\u2014unlike United Future members, who say that it does not matter what has been signed. We say we must honour the sanctity of the contract; if the employer has agreed to it and signed up to it, the deal should stick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWe are very happy to say that working people should have redundancy payments, holiday pay, and annual leave protected to a maximum of $15,000. That is what the bill is about, and we are very happy with that. If the National Party wants to take more off workers, we are not surprised, because when it comes to the matter of 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave, what have those members said? They will abolish it. We have said 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave, but the Tories want to cut it to 3 weeks\u2019 annual leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00228184aebbf4274e37acaec2e8285174ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228184aebbf4274e37acaec2e8285174ee\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E There was one serious matter raised during the debate that I felt should\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b23829af8145b8aed13a3b47e54e17\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I thought I raised at least three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac09a20a3cf248a4a4fd150021c57076\u0022\u003EMARK PECK\u003C/span\u003E: I really appreciated the member\u2019s contribution to the debate, but the Hon Richard Prebble raised a serious matter concerning a redundancy agreement being negotiated just prior to bankruptcy or litigation. I am advised by the officials that the law is not clear, but it is unlikely that the payment could be challenged by the liquidator or official assignee on the basis that it was giving an unfair advantage to the employee, because the employer would not be a creditor at the time the contract was negotiated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EHowever, I draw members\u2019 attention to clause 5(7), which deals with the definition of who is an employee and who is not. It is quite clear that in any such circumstances the employee must be a genuine employee, hired by an employer \u201Cto do any work for hire or reward under a contract of service\u201D. So in the situation of it being alleged that a form of insider trading could have been entered into\u2014to assist employees and disadvantage other creditors\u2014the question would have to be asked why a company would want to do that, particularly in the light of it not having had a redundancy agreement in the past. Most particularly, it would be unable to assist anybody who had any interest in the ongoing nature of the business, especially shareholders, family members, directors, or the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225a70c883819a4636908449e0bc4cc1a5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d64e7ab49ba845b5864efef32695a7a2\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u002202df63f32d124ade8b4045a1d18db6cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202df63f32d124ade8b4045a1d18db6cb\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Under the new Standing Orders, this part of the debate is a little different. Essentially, in dealing with clauses 1 and 2, we can assume that the matters around the title and the commencement date have been traversed in the course of the debate, so it is an opportunity to sum up the debate and the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d787c4e42c9b41c28a0be18adc0d52b9\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf239f9aa144911abdfe0b797f25b5e\u0022\u003EMARK PECK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed it is. I suggest that the member reads his Standing Orders report. He will find that that is exactly what this part of the debate is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I thank members for engaging in the debate. It has been quite robust and has raised some serious issues. Indeed, Opposition issues in respect of the way business will be treated, particularly small business, are matters that this Government has been concerned with and has dealt with in other legislative ways\u2014in particular, in the Construction Contracts Act, which deals with the issue of progressive payments for small contractors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThe Joint Insolvency Committee is still doing quite a bit of work in insolvency law, and I am sure that as that committee progresses its work further announcements will be made to the House\u2014be they in the form of reports or legislation. Of course, that is a matter totally outside the ambit of my remit tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThe contents of this bill are encapsulated quite well in its title. It will raise the priority status of redundancy payments under insolvency legislation and within the terms of the Companies Act, in order to ensure that where a company goes into bankruptcy, its employees have the protection of $15,000\u2014being their wages, holiday pay, and any component of a negotiated redundancy agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI want to thank the New Zealand First members for raising two principles in the debate, the first being that a company should not enter into a redundancy agreement unless it intends to honour it\u2014and New Zealand First is prepared to support the bill on that basis. Secondly, they raised the point of the rights of workers in an industry. They outlined a number of industries in which redundancy has become a feature simply by the nature of change in the way work is done, or the incredibly competitive nature of those particular industries as they have tried to survive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EDuring the debate there has also been discussion about it being a sad thing when companies close. We all know that. We know about the disruptive effect of closures not only on employees, their families, and their communities, but also on the business community. Closures impact on business confidence, and they are something that all of us hope will never occur. Unfortunately, in the nature of business, they do happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI am pleased to say that the bill has been well debated in the Committee stage. I think it is right that the commencement clause, clause 2, provides that there is a period of grace for employers to get their heads around the new legislation. By virtue of the fact that the bill comes into effect on the 60th day after it receives the royal assent, it will allow employers and their advisers to do their homework so that they are able to implement it in the way intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u002274a8a196376a418cbe569fb0594d4947\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274a8a196376a418cbe569fb0594d4947\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I find it quite interesting that although we are supposed to be debating the title and the commencement date, Mr Mark Peck did not quite bring himself to talk about the title. I gather from his whole speech that he is exceptionally defensive and apologetic towards small business. So he should be, because this bill once again demonstrates the problem of a Labour Government that does not act out of principle, but tries to be all things to all people. In this legislation, it tries to please employees of a business that goes bankrupt who have negotiated redundancy packages, without thinking about what will happen to the employees of the creditors\u2014the suppliers\u2014of the business that do not get paid. When suppliers cannot get payments from businesses that are in trouble, what happens to their employees? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThat further demonstrates what happens when a party like Labour is in Government. It continues not to think about principles, but to act on vested interests\u2014lobbied by the unions of one particular sector\u2014and forgets about the employees of the suppliers that are creditors to those businesses in trouble. Who will protect them? I find it really difficult when a Labour Government introduces a bill that upsets very long-held principles and commercial practices without very good background and analysis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESome of my colleagues mentioned that it might be a reaction to the closure of freezing works. My, we are reaching back into history! That is the problem of this Labour Government\u2014it still operates in the 1950s and 1960s. It is still fighting the class war, when right now it is the year 2004 and employers understand that their most important business assets are their people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe National Government\u2019s Employment Contracts Act created a very flexible environment in which individuals could negotiate directly with their employers. Unfortunately, once again we face a Labour Government that operates in the 1950s and is starting to sneakin amendments and changes to legislation that no longer reflect contemporary working conditions in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E I want to briefly mention the title, and make the point, which National has been making for a long time, that it should really reflect more closely the intention of the bill. To simply call it the \u201CStatus of Redundancy Payments Bill\u201D does not tell a lot of people what the bill is all about. It seems to me that it is more appropriate to call it the \u201CChanging Status of Redundancy Payments Bill\u201D or the \u201CCreating Further Redundancy Payments Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWhen Mr Mark Peck mentioned the commencement date, I wondered why the commencement clause refers to this magical figure of the 60th day. I am not too sure what is magical about the 60th day of this legislation being in force. Does it mean that it will take that amount of time to educate employers about what the Labour Government\u2019s plan is, and to inform business of these changes? Will Mr Mark Peck tell the public whether there will be a follow-up? Will there be an assessment of the consequences of this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe Government says the bill will not change much, so why is it wasting Parliament\u2019s time changing a well-known commercial practice that has been in existence for quite a long while? The National Party will definitely vote against this legislation. It is not a party that believes in a U-turning leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4468ab942b245abb98fb5807af205e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4468ab942b245abb98fb5807af205e1\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is correctly named. I think that the title reflects what it is all about. The Status of Redundancy Payments Bill basically provides for employees who have signed a redundancy agreement with their employer to have a higher status in the pecking order if the firm wants to, needs to, or does go belly up. [Interruption] I cannot see exactly what the member is doing. I wish he would stop echoing like a sparrow at the back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOver the years, thousands of people have been made redundant in this country. I listed them before, from press cuttings I got from the library. They are people from the meatworks, the sharemarket, the clothing industry, the car industry, the airline industry, the stevedoring industry, and the shipping industry. Thousands of people have been affected, and, without exception, every one of them went home feeling quite distressed and in quite some anguish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn many cases, when these firms have gone belly up, contractors have lost some money, and some, as a result, have gone into liquidation\u2014but not always. In the main, small businesses that service large businesses survive, because they have their eggs in many baskets. When I was the manager of a stevedoring company, from time to time I was offered the chance to tender for a stevedoring contract from an organisation that was perhaps a little suspect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9501c11175e44ea8b4bcff050cf6c7b\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Dodgy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201d093c275a42898383888239925730\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014or dodgy. I would put in a tender, but then I would ask for a financial advance to lessen my risk. Nine times out of ten I would receive such. Occasionally, a company would be reluctant to give me one. I then evaluated whether the risk was greater than I first thought, and it was my choice whether I took the contract. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESmall-business people are not dumb. They know the wiles of the world, and the way things operate. I hear National Party members, in particular, talk about employers as if they do not have a clue how to do anything. I wonder whether any National Party members have had any experience in real business, operating at the coalface with people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db0e1d931c74e1f9049279993cdfce9\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292bc576e7e03449a9b366dd26d876faa\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: A lawyer says that he has had experience in real business. It is encouraging to know that a lawyer has had hands-on experience in real business, where he has been dealing with staff in sufficient numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EEmployed people are entitled to some protection. They go to work daily, and rely heavily on the employer to do things correctly, to look after them, and to offer them some security of employment. This bill moves the redundancy payment one step further, to give them that protection. Nobody wants companies to go bankrupt, nobody wants to see liquidations, nobody wants to see people made redundant, and nobody wants to see contractors lose in these sorts of circumstances, but when those events occur, there needs to be a priority order. This bill changes the current priority order in a fair-minded manner. The cap is $15,000, which embraces holiday pay, wage entitlements, and a redundancy payment. I think that is quite reasonable. I think it offers protection to working people who have signed a redundancy agreement\u2014they get no redundancy if they do not have a signed agreement. There is no gun to an employer\u2019s head to agree to a redundancy agreement. I think that this bill is appropriate, and that the title is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e1cbd8bc8936434ba30221a11b1f4062\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022913285cd583c482890c759f8e01b6643\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3ca7b71d52541cfba3f216810110909\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3ca7b71d52541cfba3f216810110909\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee divide the bill into the Companies Amendment Bill and the Insolvency Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 192.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dbcb2f4524e44fe4a9c727d282b9583d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227031b88e100b44c5a8eb1900f0691b18\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002281f03899d79a479394394d5c5b0edf9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281f03899d79a479394394d5c5b0edf9b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I report the bill so divided, I want to congratulate Mark Peck on taking a member\u2019s bill through the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227031b88e100b44c5a8eb1900f0691b18\u0022\u003EVolunteers Employment Protection Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0d2c69aeb60427ab1a30a4236bd8a00\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00223544cf3cd40f4aaeb79607747e7fd8c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223544cf3cd40f4aaeb79607747e7fd8c8\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave that all remaining stages be taken as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022815b6d5284494aa1bf2d83f3a0dbe058\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill has to go into Committee, because there are some amendments. I think the member will find it is OK. We will proceed accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022939567641006424d864c5d33810ce208\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00228bfe646fc7a542f696c5a6a5651b297a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bfe646fc7a542f696c5a6a5651b297a\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Volunteers Employment Protection Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I would like to thank Mr Tisch for his assistance there, because it is the desire, I believe, of every party in the House to have this bill passed into law as soon as possible. However, I suspect that 20 minutes today will not be quite enough time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is somewhat of a bittersweet moment, because the bill has had an extraordinarily long gestation\u2014unfortunately, so long that it is no longer able to achieve its immediate objective of protecting the jobs of the hundreds of volunteers who served in East Timor. That was the actuating reason for the bill. It is worth noting that emergencies like that in East Timor occur only every few decades, and the service people who are volunteers need the protection then. It is unfortunate, perhaps, that the bill was not passed within, say, a year of its introduction. That would have been acceptable, and at least two final deployments to East Timor would then have benefited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is, after all, worth recollecting the time line. The bill was introduced in September 2000, approximately a year after the first deployments. As it turned out, there ended up being six deployments, in total, over 3 years. If the bill had been passed within, say, 1 year, the final two deployments\u2014or at least the final one\u2014would have benefited from it. That would have been appreciated. Having said that, I want to acknowledge the assistance of the Minister and Defence Force officials. I acknowledge the Minister\u2019s office, the Defence Force, and, in particular, Brigadier Tim Brewer for the role they played in improving the bill. There is no doubt that the bill we are dealing with today is a superior bill to the one introduced nearly 4 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1eba2d9eb224d109997c6c19f9cd78c\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Four years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022590ee8a28a15421489e31adffa01e20b\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Nearly 4 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is worth remembering that when we deploy servicemen in the circumstances of East Timor, we ask a heavy commitment of all our service people, be they regular forces or territorial forces. On every occasion that occurs, there is a solemn debate in this House. That particular deployment had the support of every party. We need to recollect that we ask individual people to make major sacrifices for the common good, and this bill acknowledges that, as part of that, the employers of those people should keep their jobs open for the period of the deployment. As was pointed out to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, that of itself would then be asking something of particular employers that others were not bearing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge some of the changes in the bill since it went through the select committee. The first change is that the drafting itself has been improved. More substantively, there is now established a mechanism whereby employers will get some recompense for their particular commitment in holding the employment open for the service person. I think that is right and proper. The rest of the community has a shared commitment in that regard. The second point I want to note is the establishment of the Employers Support Council. That will be hugely important in building the acceptance and understanding of service, and the value of it\u2014not just to the individual service person, not just to the community at large, but actually to the employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the person sitting beside me tonight, Captain Richard Worth OBE, a senior member of the Royal New Zealand Navy reservists. He himself would know the importance of the training that people receive, in terms of self-confidence, capability, planning, and so forth. I think that is acknowledged by a large number of people. As the number of reservists has gone down, and as the number of employers who have had experience of military service has reduced, that understanding, frankly, is less than it used to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI note at this point that the territorial force of the Army is now down to 1,800, and probably only 800 are efficient. When I was in the Territorial Force, some years ago now, the number was 7,000, and large numbers of employers understood the value of it. The situation was different. The irony is that as the numbers of the Territorial Force reduced, the requirement for their commitment increased. I hope this bill will play some part in turning that round. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI give personal testament to all those service people who served our country in East Timor under considerable hardship and away from their families. They were serving this country and building peace for the people of East Timor\u2014and, in fact, for ourselves, not just East Timor; they were doing it for the region itself. It was an altruistic activity by New Zealand, undertaken by particular individuals; but we in the region all benefit from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EFinally, I am pleased we have got to this stage tonight. I appreciate that the bill will now be passed into law, probably, by 24 March, but better late than never. I look forward to the Committee stage, when the Supplementary Order Papers will be introduced, and then to the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00222cfef54781c54f37ad179e469166a111\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cfef54781c54f37ad179e469166a111\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E We do indeed have every reason to be immensely proud of all our service personnel for the work they are doing and for the reputation they continue to build for New Zealand and New Zealanders, and\u2014I agree with Dr Mapp\u2014nowhere more so than in East Timor. It gives me pleasure to rise in support of the second reading of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis Government has made it clear through its defence policy framework, its defence statement, and its long-term development plan, and, of course, the major acquisitions announced as a result of those three documents, that it is committed to a Defence Force that is equipped and supported to a standard that can match the high level of skill, dedication, and, indeed, courage constantly displayed by our personnel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe deployment of our Defence Force to East Timor drew into public focus the role of our personnel, in a way that has not happened for many years. It also highlighted the important role played by the men and women in the territorial forces and reserve forces, many of whom, as Dr Mapp mentioned, served in East Timor, and, indeed, continue to serve in operations today. I will use the term \u201CTerritorial Force\u201D, but it does include volunteers and reservists from all three services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E In the past, Territorial Force personnel were recruited and trained to give New Zealand the ability to expand its defence forces to meet a serious threat to national security. With increasing demands for peace support operations around the world, and the need to use defence resources in the most efficient manner possible, the Territorial Force must be able to contribute to the things the Army is most likely to do. Where extra personnel are needed, as in East Timor, the enhancement of New Zealand\u2019s ability to utilise volunteers provides a cost-effective solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EAs part of the Government\u2019s initiative to enhance the pay and conditions of service for the armed forces, there have been a number of improvements to conditions in the Territorial Force. For example, its personnel are now paid the same as regular force personnel, as indeed they should be. To ensure that the Territorial Force is able to contribute effectively to Defence Force deployments, service in the Territorial Force needs to be more attractive to volunteers and their employers. I think all parties in this House agree about that.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Volunteers Employment Protection Act of 1973 was enacted at the same time that national service was abolished. It currently protects the civil employment of the volunteer members of all three services but only when they undergo their initial or annual training. It was extended under the Defence Act of 1990 to cover the deployment of the members of the Territorial Force and reserves when called up by proclamation for an actual or imminent emergency involving overseas deployment of our forces. It has not been systematically reviewed previously, it is fair to say, and, frankly, it is quite out of step with modern employment legislation. It does not cover members of the Territorial Force who serve overseas voluntarily, and, as Dr Mapp indicated, it was the major deployment to East Timor, just such a deployment, that really drew this into sharp focus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis bill was initially a member\u2019s bill sponsored by Dr Mapp in order to protect the employment of volunteers and to provide support for employers. As he said, it was introduced in August 2000. It was then referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which heard public submissions to the effect that the bill needed to go further than its original scope. Substantial work was undertaken by committee members and myself working together, and I also acknowledge Brigadier Brewer and a number of other members of the Defence Force who put in a substantial amount of work; their support was excellent. With the full agreement of the select committee, and with leave of the House, a Government Supplementary Order Paper has been introduced for consideration by the Committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper significantly expands the scope of the protection available to volunteers in the Territorial Force for all three services, both when called up by proclamation for continuous service, whether or not in New Zealand or overseas, and when serving voluntarily for fixed periods, when that service is declared to be in the national interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EIt provides for a workable mechanism for volunteers in the Territorial Force to serve voluntarily for such fixed periods. As far as possible, it aligns the procedures and practices for volunteers\u2019 leave with those established under the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act. It brings the Volunteers Employment Protection Act up to date with present employment law. It also empowers the Governor-General in Council to make regulations to compensate employers when their Territorial Force volunteer employees serve in a situation of national interest. It provides for the appointment of a Territorial Forces Employer Support Council to promote service in those forces and to advise the Minister of Defence on matters relating to those forces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe bill was reported back from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee with the recommendation that it be passed with amendments, and I am pleased tonight to stand to support the progress of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b7e1f2b39274b15895b6f30438a217e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00225b65c2796c484bd497a58bcafa568dd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b65c2796c484bd497a58bcafa568dd9\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee to take the provisions of this stage as a single debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00224d77ac174bf04f53b4f3b85b54d0d699\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d77ac174bf04f53b4f3b85b54d0d699\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It will be taken as a single debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c58107b295b4479bbc6495fc02336d25\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 1A, Parts 1 and 2, and Schedules 1 to 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022851d4a1f3c5c48cf965a7c967c486ea8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022851d4a1f3c5c48cf965a7c967c486ea8\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I take the opportunity for a very short call to explain the additional Supplementary Order Paper and amendments in my name. The passing of the Holidays Act of 2003, which comes into effect on 1 April 2004, necessitates some minor amendments to this bill as reported back. The opportunity therefore is taken to correct a minor typographical error; divide the bill into two bills to amend the Volunteers Employment Protection Act and the Defence Act respectively; and provide that the bill will come into effect at the same time as the Holidays Act. There is a further amendment to clause 5, consequential to the renaming of the Higher Salaries Commission as the Remuneration Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9. 56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040303485a3ec2816f4b79a6ccda53f7c38cf3000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"