"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e2f1a13c82f452eb0d9efdfba3f22ce\u0022\u003EThursday, 5 August 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229770d3149789486095e5f330cd37e9c2\u0022\u003EThursday, 5 August 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2ff290b24504a2586a46a56c5cf7a57\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb94b5ec874f40e1a9bbcd9b7238d824\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002218a2c4b90929468886a50ec39fdf0a89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218a2c4b90929468886a50ec39fdf0a89\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House, priority will be given to the completion of the remaining stages of the Building Bill, the Education (Export Education Levy) Amendment Bill, and the Electricity and Gas Industries Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223f3c40b8a1a04f308dee8635700044d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f3c40b8a1a04f308dee8635700044d0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Having noticed the extraordinarily large number of second readings and Committee stages on the Order Paper, and having seen the number of bills at select committees that are due back in the House very, very shortly, I ask whether he expects that in the next 3-week block of Parliament there will be extended hours so that the Government might advance its business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002277fe5c964a5a4feea1382a232990b7a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277fe5c964a5a4feea1382a232990b7a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E At the moment I regard the Order Paper as manageable, but I am always open to offers for extended hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac15fab4c12b4352a56807c0fb5c9bf8\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b45c195a338c4d399714fc9443f3ffa8\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e32e189d1d64326b58f40d76f44f7da\u0022\u003EChristchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology\u2014Community Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5eca69e18ba436bb51769814e181d41\u0022\u003E1. Hon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education): Does he have any concerns about the way community education funding has been used by Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002218fefb8ae90840ba8d3b4ea813131ef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218fefb8ae90840ba8d3b4ea813131ef0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)):\u003C/span\u003E I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1899fc8b9524276ac0f8fbdad44aa8e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Minister\u2019s press release today virtually endorsed a situation where the Government paid $795 for a $5 CD; where the Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology set out to deliberately exploit funding loopholes before they were closed; where only 3 percent of the 18,000 enrolled students are known to have completed the course; where, of the 18,000 enrolments, 13,000 did not fit the Government criteria and nothing was done; and where senior polytechnic and ministry officials knew about all this and did nothing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022340d6b7c2e15438cb39861a85c005a0a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: My press release today points to the fact that the Tertiary Education Commission has responsibility to deal with this issue, but I certainly applaud, as did the member, that it has regained the $83,000 that was improperly used by the Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology. In fact, that was the amount of money asked for by that member in a press release. He asked me a question explicitly about that amount of money, so he has got what he wanted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI have also endorsed the fact that the commission will now be evaluating those enrolments, and I hope we arrive at a situation where the polytechnic does pay more money back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b20e4d0ce114ad6b752d01a9c6a3b8f\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What expectations does he have of organisations that receive public money for tertiary education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eade8e2dcac24731bfab04cd0828cbe1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I expect that all organisations that receive public money, especially public institutions, act ethically, responsibly, and accountably in their use of public money. We are now entering a phase where we are moving from a demand-led to a more strategic approach to tertiary spending. That is where I expect us to go. I believe that is a much better approach than the approach offered by Bill English, in which he would sit behind his desk and decide what people learn in institutions in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291b2f81925440c6a5eb3b129119a837\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: How can taxpayers have any confidence in the Labour Government\u2019s spending, given that the Minister told the House on 27 November 2001, in response to another funding scam revealed by ACT, that he gave an absolute assurance there were no other incidents of this scale?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8626443d23847fb9530638e6a359f79\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The entire question was abstract. I do not have the faintest idea what the member is talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229843cb15301d4636b7398d09643c1dc9\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc0b7de472d4379bddcde7b39f6047c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Hide. That is the one warning today. There will be no interjections during points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c60bf604ae346f0b52c66e2dc5c415f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The question asked how taxpayers could have any confidence in the Minister. His answer was that he did not understand the question. We are quite happy to put it again, but if the Minister cannot explain why taxpayers should have confidence in him as Minister, I think the answer is self-evident to the House. I am sure he has to reply to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290d833e09c6243b4ae45d8950b1fd18c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am certain he does, too. The Minister will please respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d15d88a26d154395aae921a139479b0a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: They can have confidence because, of course, we do hold accountable, at every turn, people who spend public money. That is what this Government is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f009395dc11e47129450e3d9b55287f0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister turning a blind eye to a $15 million scam, whereby the management of Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology ruthlessly exploited his rules, senior Government officials let it happen, no one acted ethically or responsibly, and the Minister is not exercising any accountability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225020450901224eefad8a15fa702d423f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I assure the member that I am not turning a blind eye. Today I applaud the fact that we are seeing the return of money used to induce students into the course inappropriately, and I applaud the fact that the Tertiary Education Commission and the polytechnic will now evaluate all the enrolments. I am looking forward to seeing more money paid back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a2b1fcbf50e4eb49d3cc00d491baf71\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Who will be held accountable for the bureaucratic shambles, the dishonest behaviour, and the lack of professionalism; will it be him and his weak enforcement of his stupid policy, his officials who let it happen, or the people in Christchurch who did it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c851110107d544f3ab433e9831f13f50\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the member\u2019s question concerning who is accountable, he will know that the Tertiary Education Commission makes funding decisions under section 159J(4) of the Education Act 1989, so it will be accountable, and that the polytech itself has a responsibility to spend taxpayers\u2019 money wisely, so it will be accountable, and I will make sure they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570a556dfbdc4e0f80dee3d778d5ab8e\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Which of the following personal achievements in the Minister\u2019s blameless life of excellence does he consider the greatest: the potential misuse of thousands of dollars, if not millions, at Christchurch polytech; the millions lost on computers supplied to non-existent students at the Practical Education Training Centre in Taranaki in 2001; wasted thousands that went to social entrepreneurs, including hip-hop; the tens of thousands\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287fc45dd84f340bdb5e9b282de75acc9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come to the point. I have just about had enough of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ea3e58fa8344698eba2546319686a2\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and when will he ever accept responsibility for some of the most inept ministerial stewardship in this country\u2019s history?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236f4d975cef144949e7cba5f785a5ba3\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member is a new member, so clearly her memory is very short. I think the thing I like most in the education area is the 7,000 Modern Apprenticeships that are out there today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8f5aa8219b3439ebe14c8ec2ae7867e\u0022\u003EFloods\u2014Financial Assistance, Eastern Bay of Plenty\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a247e00ee01542f68779f71a024b58d1\u0022\u003EMITA RIRINUI (Labour\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What is being done to assist families affected by the recent flooding in the Eastern Bay of Plenty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a120d9421fc74de28546b88c7615fd61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a120d9421fc74de28546b88c7615fd61\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Apart from the excellent work done by that member, yesterday I met with the mayors of Whakat\u0101ne and \u014Cp\u014Dtiki District Councils to discuss the Government\u2019s relief measures for flood and earthquake affected areas in Eastern Bay of Plenty. The relief measures, at an estimated $30 million, have been developed in close cooperation with local councils, farmers, and voluntary and business groups. Having seen the impact of the flooding and met some of the people working on the ground to assist with recovery, I have to say I have absolutely nothing but praise for the efforts of people in this region. I take the opportunity today to put on record my thanks to staff in my areas of responsibility\u2014the Ministry of Social Development, Work and Income, and the Housing New Zealand Corporation. They have done an amazing job on behalf of those communities in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1320bab8a364717a11b124dd1358188\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances can the Minister give that Government support will be forthcoming for the rebuilding of the pivotal stopbanks that protect not only the farming community but also the people of the townships of Edgecumbe and Whakat\u0101ne?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225436587e2e634836ae6110bd6bde38f0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will know, central government meets 100 percent of some of those costs, such as assisting displaced people. In areas like stopbank repair, there is in place the same scheme as in the Manawat\u016B-Rangit\u012Bkei area, which is the 60:40 split that exists between the two levels of government in paying for these changes. I also understand that this split-cost arrangement has been in place for a number of years. It was put in place in about 1987, from memory, and although Governments have varied it a bit, that is the pattern that has been followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f379fbbb01994ccb8978b2ffab999a42\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister inform the House about the sort of contingency plan the Government has to respond to the current survey that the recovery centre in Whakat\u0101ne is conducting to ascertain the damage to uninsured and underinsured households and businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b56b9e82c4b547ea85ec34b912b8560a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I met yesterday with the group that will receive that survey, and those people convinced me that they are in good shape, right across both Government and non-Government organisations, to receive that report and rapidly put into action the needed assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffff809fc2044d268aa3cd3b003ab84c\u0022\u003EImmigration\u2014Fraud\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0253cf207a54f74ac32f73c20fd8108\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Immigration: Why did he say, with respect to immigration fraud, \u201CHe [Rt Hon Winston Peters] has raised points many times over the years, but provided little evidence.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00224ff7194eb8604cc8b2cf82f5f4b4b055\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ff7194eb8604cc8b2cf82f5f4b4b055\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Because it is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e95381614e246cfa7f752c4480b7203\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that the Minister and his colleagues know that this party has given evidence time and time again in this House and outside of it in relation to cases like those of Ekatarina Ross and Mohammed Saidi, who lied his way into this country on a false claim of refugee status, of English-language scams that ended up on the Assignment programme, and in relation to a long list of other cases, but that the answer has always been, when we have sought to follow those cases up, to quote from his former colleague, \u201CThe Privacy Act prevents these cases from being discussed.\u201D; why does he not admit the fact that he has been found out, and so has his party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e4ea1f966684b79ac1388a7ea8b01a5\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I think that I and the House are very aware of many allegations made by that member. However, allegations do not equate to evidence. Every one of those allegations has been followed up, but without evidence being provided by the member most of them have been proven to be untrue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8291cccfcfe46489e001a45e8245485\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to combat immigration fraud?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e75b659250f4922b7f4e4dd37f422ee\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: In the 2003-04 Budget over $19 million of extra funding was provided to the Department of Labour\u2019s Immigration Service. That is spread over 4 years for a range of compliance-related activities, including increased capability in the areas of intelligence work, fraud investigation, and removals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c90b8fe885404f47adcc7598ea0c3161\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister doing about the culture of fraud, as revealed by the \u201Clying in unison\u201D report, that exists within the New Zealand Immigration Service itself, given 30 investigations involving staff fraud for the year ended 30 June this year, and three new investigations last month alone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221673c779e05641f6bf5aa072fc10df12\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I completely refute any claims of a culture of fraud, at all. With a service such as the New Zealand Immigration Service it is inevitable that of the many hundreds of thousands of people who apply to come into this country, some who are disappointed because they are turned down will make malicious claims against individual staff. Whenever those claims are made, they are investigated as being very serious claims. Thankfully, most of them are proved to be untrue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226366797aff64375be65446ffdeed51d\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that neither he nor the Minister of Immigration has ever received any policy proposals or suggestions from the Rt Hon Winston Peters on the subject of immigration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d4523c46728407b99d7cbfd8be15168\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order is blatantly obvious. Three election campaigns, numerous manifesto statements\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227364ad7e846a476b9004a037659f554a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order. proposals or suggestions from the Rt Hon Winston Peters on the subject of immigration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b75ed3a0afe487991872953cdc7e5f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on; I am getting to it. More important, we are now being asked to have the Minister interpret what that means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254b9e367351a4207a6659d22b52efb8e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member has not raised a point of order. He has raised a political point, and he has made his point. The Minister will now answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbbf313c159548df834a502a1c77e298\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I have certainly not received any policy ideas from the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and I am not sure whether my colleague the Hon Paul Swain has, either. I doubt it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3e4d1e5c9043958a0c9a70920ea6af\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister prepared to put his career on the line today, and to come to this House with any evidence that we have raised any matter to do with fraud and not sent the substantial evidence to go with it, such as, for example, evidence regarding Saied Ghanbari the very person leaving tomorrow because we found him, not the Minister or his ministry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255687623435a40e89215de4445aec951\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of many, many allegations made in this House by that member about immigration matters. That member very rarely provides any evidence to back up those claims. I stand by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022697a72894a3e49e99b53dbf20bfd6538\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister again whether he will put his career on the line and back up two answers he has given today to the effect that we in New Zealand First have failed to provide him or his colleagues with information to back up questions in this House on fraud; and if it is true that he has been provided with the information, will he resign from Parliament for having misled it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c55fae415f14f2b9db9914de0da73f7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: There are numerous\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228bb9221f52445fcb01a921b67f34841\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Tempting though that may be, could we hear the answer from the Minister. [Interruption] I know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262330c4881be4492a9eaeb3e5d6f051e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I have this answer heard in some degree of silence. Mr Prebble yelled out in the first person, and that is totally outside the Standing Orders. Unlike him, yes, I would resign, but I will not be fired for it, like he was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ab492027e114f30bee1103a48e7005a\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member is quite right. I did call out in the first person; that is completely correct. But I do think this is a very serious matter. Mr Peters is telling this House and the country that if he has not backed up every single allegation that he has made in this House, he will resign. As this is his last day in the House, I think we should pay our respects to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213068815607844e79dcf455954ac1488\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will make only one comment, which is that the interjection was made in the second person, not the first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224305f3c7c7f64c099b012404dbb29248\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, many allegations are made. Sometimes I am aware of letters being passed on to the service, putting down those allegations. However, that does not mean that there is any evidence whatsoever to back up those allegations. When investigated by the New Zealand Immigration Service, they have proved to lack any substantive claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e044e2588e0a42348c3df47354478171\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the outcome of the increased focus on verification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca3ef0d6b3e4ea395ec0b0adae8beef\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: There have been very, very good outcomes. The increased focus on verification has meant that we have many more fraudulent job offers being exposed. We have many more investor applications being declined, and we have the establishment of a new fraud and investigations unit that specialises in that area. We are making huge progress in that area, in an international world that sees increasing levels of fraudulent activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bc8bbc994db4abc8d2cc2c5eb2e23b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister prepared to apologise to this House and to New Zealand First for the claims that Labour made in the 2002 election that everything we said was either racist or worse and was not true, when just yesterday he made it very clear that every claim that was made was true and that that is why there are extra resources\u2014except that we now have thousands of fraudsters here, and you have no idea who they are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b09b4f38a5ea418f9a217918c22fe24e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not to be brought into the debate, but the Minister can answer for himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5bd3d706cc49ecb5225af9b5fb7bfc\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022debb4f72c261467eb6c299b7327558c1\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter from the Hon Paul Swain that confirms that since taking up the labour and immigration portfolios in February 2004 he has not received any correspondence from any of the aforementioned spokespersons on the issue of policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a93e3018ea7c419a9542c6b085d7ea74\u0022\u003EEnergy\u2014Renewable Energy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c55cfcaaf5f44734a661f991884be034\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Tainui)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy: What progress is being made in developing renewable energy in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022c56c5ea885e34e509991dc5225bbed77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c56c5ea885e34e509991dc5225bbed77\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E Very good progress. Wind power is set to grow fourfold by the end of this year\u2014the year ending in December. All of that remarkable increase has been driven by carbon credits arising from this Governments climate change policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f53cf54bfce4c0097b750dcb41f3df5\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: When can New Zealanders expect to see the results of this policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c96260974f804c90a94d7069d20dee50\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: They are already seeing it, of course, but the member\u2019s question is a good one because this Government intends to continue the way we started. In the next month or two we will put 6 million tonnes of carbon credits out to tender, and are confident we will receive from our very innovative economy many bids to reduce pollution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8eb100fbf0492b8121b0229d0c14f1\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Would the strong growth in electricity generation from wind power have occurred without the Government\u2019s climate change policy and the legislation that was supported by the Green Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d322048bf0249febfe8bd952ed82502\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it would not have. The large developments in wind power this year, which by the end of this year will give us the largest and the second-largest wind farms in the Southern Hemisphere, would not have proceeded without carbon credits. Under our policy, not only will polluters pay but non-polluters will be paid. Under National\u2019s policy, which is still not on its website, none of that sort of thing can happen, because it is a dog.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc075c3596c4917a0ce070a4c9556ee\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister convinced that renewable energy is coming on stream in sufficient quantities to truly have a competitive market, which would put downward pressure on prices, or is it just a case of keeping pace with demand, which will enable retailers to sell everything at any price they so desire?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245fcb45a51fd4d28882a132c2d8b1ed4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: That member will be aware of a number of generation projects recently under way, and might be aware of a number of others that are soon to be announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240529b5a18d54064b5573ee324378f72\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister tell the House approximately how many windmills across our landscape would be required to produce, say, 20 percent of our base electricity demand, and can he confirm that they would need to be backed up with thermal generation, because of the intermittent and unpredictable nature of wind blow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f071921f4f3240c6b964ce4eca8faa1b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand will always need thermal generation; most renewable energy systems do. The only exceptions are where there is remarkable storage, as there is in Norway. In New Zealand we can have, certainly, 20 percent of our energy come from wind. How many turbines would depend on the size of each turbine, but I have been to a wind farm\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9145f95250c495586509e8a88c4e9eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Cheap comments like that do not help Parliament at all. That member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c75a0d16b7d45d6999313dec39380e7\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d3b0bbf6203469d847d38e6b1021f2c\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think there is a long-held understanding that interjections that are particularly witty are acceptable; describing the Minister as a wind farm was very witty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222013368eeabf4595bb9a69c9a60fb67e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member might think that; I certainly did not\u2014not even half that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c291e5ee3c42778a1e6291cceefbbb\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have been to a wind farm with 7,200 turbines, and if each of those produced a megawatt, that would be as much electricity as we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a362de51bf864f6287ef4900d441623e\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: What other steps is the Government taking to encourage wind power, such as funding the identification of suitable wind farm sites, which would help to match the assistance the Government is already giving to the drilling industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b397b70542ef492cbe279fbfb4095109\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think there is any necessity for further assistance in identifying sites. There is now quite a large body of knowledge about the wind potential in New Zealand. The main thing that is needed for wind power to progress further is a very favourable planning system, for which the Greens have offered their assistance, and, indeed, carbon credits, which is the sort of thing that could not happen under a National Party Government, because it does not have the imagination to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc823728fad140bea6222cb67ac76049\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228caa997205394406a5c93dce4c426b7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228caa997205394406a5c93dce4c426b7a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for this question to be held over until the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs would be in a better position to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a4084ce17304eac8574e25c39125f42\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is. Please ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c2f800bf9bc4d0bb95de3b95882f967\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Language Commission\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022794d2449062d44b2a253688a1136e42d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: Does he have confidence in the board of the M\u0101ori Language Commission; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00229b2ac6b920494821bdcb6a15e0a3fc25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b2ac6b920494821bdcb6a15e0a3fc25\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Associate Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc6fac77ab24c15b6641144710c7308\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be asking Dr James Buwalda, Chief Executive Officer of the Department of Labour, to give advice to Dr H\u014Dhepa on how best to get rid of a staff member who has annoyed the Government; if not, will he call upon his own considerable experience as a senior State servant and seller of Labour Party raffle tickets to bring in new guidelines for politically active civil servants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224b550d8939a4ba588ef48c9f85bfda2\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: No. To bring the House up to date, I have been advised that the board has acknowledged, by way of writing to the Minister, that an error of judgment has been made by its chief executive. He has been censured by the board. The board is working with the State Services Commission and Te Puni K\u014Dkiri to make sure that there are clear guidelines in place for the M\u0101ori Language Commission\u2019s staff in terms of appropriate conduct. Finally, the board will take these matters into account when the chief executive officer\u2019s employment contract comes up for review in May of 2005. The Minister is extraordinarily comfortable with that result from the commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a01b918a8af4726a1cc8b4877e3d335\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister please advise the House what are the key achievements of the M\u0101ori Language Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e85fcc325e44ff0a13b20eabfa82553\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: This is another reason why we have confidence in the board. Highlights, to name four very quickly, include a leading-edge joint initiative entered into between the commission and Microsoft with regard to the promotion of the language; it has won the prestigious 2004 Computerworld award for the M\u0101t\u0101puna Dictionary Database System; it promotes the M\u0101ori language internationally through the International Polynesian Language Forum and brings New Zealand into a great vista in that regard; and, finally, it leads the promotion of te reo through the M\u0101ori Language Week in partnership with the Human Rights Commission. This Government has significantly increased its investment in the promotion of the language, and the commission is doing a fine job in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d74a1d919642a4aed033e354aff59b\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain to the House the difference between an employee of a Crown agency and an employee of a Crown entity, and does an employee of a Crown entity participate in the Crown policy process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229438f81360ee495f9d94f16c5e562efa\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: All employees who source their dollar values from the Queen\u2019s shilling have a range of conducts to live up to. M\u0101ori civil servants, in particular, do not have standards that are lesser than others, which that member might well want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202fab1e6b0814da18a2510e34ce80352\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister did not answer my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd3214c6791a49d6ae58008980049816\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister might not have answered it to the member\u2019s satisfaction, but I thought he addressed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f52b144110504976b42801de5fd759ea\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can we take it from the Minister\u2019s previous answer that Mr Piripi is not going to be required to resign, that he has simply been slapped with a wet bus ticket, and that the new standard is that State servants can attack the Government, Parliament, and the Leader of the Opposition and suffer very little consequence for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228948d863d67b42878a145ae818fcf70b\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Censure and discipline are a matter between the employing commission and the chief executive officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fa6d61a0c304e2a814b9eb3f5d03145\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Is the real reason the Minister feels obliged to express confidence in the M\u0101ori Language Commission because virtually every M\u0101ori in New Zealand thinks that the Government\u2019s foreshore legislation is confiscation; if that is not so, would the Minister care to name any person who is qualified to be on the M\u0101ori Language Commission who ought to be its chief executive\u2014apart from his Labour M\u0101ori colleagues\u2014who can speak M\u0101ori and who does not believe that the Government\u2019s legislation is confiscation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251cf95646eb94cf9941cff8881ed4ce4\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I will come back to the member on the second part of his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022150ff293772f449f85481ef29595b69e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government received reports on a most curious circumstance\u2014Mr Prebble\u2019s almost 100 percent M\u0101ori thinking it is confiscation, and Mr Brash and the National Party saying that M\u0101ori got all they wanted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227860b18637e24326828dab2c79bd13bb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not in relation to this Minister\u2019s portfolio or this particular question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a758fd2cfd51495f9c8503f60b4c6d67\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would not ordinarily raise the point, but Mr Prebble put it in contention, you did not rule it out, and therefore I think it is now in as an appropriate issue about which I can ask a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d720718f51ae4849907c87981c9cefd8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mr Prebble asked him about the chair of the commission and the people concerned. He directly related it to the original question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cdf2eeff55c47b2983aa938c189f6be\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Noting his previous answers, can the Minister tell the House specifically what penalty Haami Piripi has paid for his indiscretions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d40c638c27134f9188e96ba52fcd862d\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: The matters that I alerted the member to, with regard to the commission\u2019s response to its chief executive officer, are the only details I have at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b1f0befaa33494094c9405e423003bd\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to consider that answer. Are we to accept that the Minister knows only what is in a press release, and that there is no communication between the Minister\u2019s office and the M\u0101ori Language Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddae293c6add48dd8ec6872fd84ad6b2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot ask me that question. It is not my job as Speaker. I do not have knowledge of every detail of every question; nor should I. I have to agree as to whether the question was addressed, and it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b565af92c9d646f39c9a2ee6c47e2517\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order is that while you do not have to know the details of activity, you do have to determine whether a question is addressed. I am asking you whether it is acceptable for a Minister to come into the House and, firstly, give an answer to a question that relates to information he is supposed to have in front of him, and then later concede that the information is only by way of press release, and expect the House to believe there has been no communication between him and the agency he is responsible for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc231eb773b24a208f05e0cb82abcc5c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any assistance. I ruled that was a proper response, and it was. [Interruption] The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise for that comment because it was directed at me. It was in the second person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef5c940bdd04f88bd629eb0060b4df8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. It was not directed at you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bcd42b2a6764cd293ce22cddcace3a0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If that is the case, I accept the member\u2019s word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620e9f93e96747c3a3941aa70c536790\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the widespread concern that there is a witch-hunt under way against M\u0101ori civil servants who have a view different from the Government, can the Minister shed any light on the involvement of his colleague the Hon John Tamihere in the resignation of a senior Department of Labour employee; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221268699f51e64c8f9e773634c276c566\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can answer as Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222738258d85c341ac9fdf503a0c9dbf11\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has consulted Mr Tamihere, and as part of that consultation process the reality is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d8bca12824d409c8f2caa4a6c87bc7c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the House does deserve a little bit of clarification. Is the Minister\u2019s answer that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs has consulted with the Hon John Tamihere, and, as a consequence of that consultation, the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, like the rest of the country, is no further ahead in understanding quite what John Tamihere was up to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6a595703cdd4176b41b223cc484e512\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister gave an absolutely direct answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e59acfb40db240f69bc1579c9db2a493\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a piece of correspondence forwarded to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs by the M\u0101ori Language Commission, identifying the range of issues it is going to clarify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bebf74123ba343aea35d6d46bc3ca478\u0022\u003ETaitokerau Forests Ltd\u2014Government Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef11370fc79e457d855577c91717b188\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he believe that bailing out embattled Taitokerau Forests Ltd is a prudent use of public funds; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022013b1663e34c45a0bb280083d29c0634\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022013b1663e34c45a0bb280083d29c0634\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E On balance, yes. Without providing this incremental financing, the Crown faced the very real possibility that it would have little, if any, hope of recovering its $50 million in advances and capitalised interest to date since 1986.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a8ed451bd834058bf5dd8ab103689d5\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister explain to taxpayers why they should involuntarily bear the ongoing financial burden of Taitokerau Forests Ltd, a company that, as he has just mentioned, has already racked up a debt of $50 million, has been turned away by a multitude of commercial lenders, and is now seeking a further $3.6 million from the public purse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3f4f997e7934a8ca9a61334f4d08489\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The sum of $3.6 million has already been voted; it is not being sought. The answer to the first part of the question is that the $50 million would have been at serious risk. The Crown, of course, had the alternative of allowing the company to fall over, but then it would have had to take on the ownership risk and the management of the forest. On balance, it was thought better to take on some increased debt risk, which, in the end, is secured for the underlying value of the forest itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228134d45c3e2c46b489631819b2572c9d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government have any idea of what the problem is with the particular forest management, and can he assure the House that this will not be an ongoing problem that the Government regularly has to tip money into in order to bail out organisations like this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7e726dfeeb54b079ff388cfce88e765\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Dealing with the second part, which I think is the more important, I can say that harvesting will occur from 2009, so a cash flow will begin to be generated from that point. In retrospect, I think it was probably a most unwise decision by the then Minister of Finance, Roger Douglas, to have entered into this initial arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200995539443d426ca17da2df5d06bd11\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm, firstly, that in 1996 the Government re-examined this and decided that it would continue to fund, as the equity in the trees was such as to advance this situation; secondly, that the Crown has a first mortgage secured over the trees; and, thirdly, that all was signed off by the then Minister of Finance, Bill Birch, in 1996?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022920cac5a47bb49b188264f77911dad7f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that in 1996 the review was undertaken on those grounds and that the then Minister of Finance, Bill Birch, approved the process. An attempt has been made to raise private financing. That was not possible. It does suggest, obviously, some difficulties, but the problem for the Crown was that it already had $50 million at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223551140c929f4ca390fdbf867ee6de79\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that there is a first mortgage over the company\u2019s assets; if so, why did the Crown not choose to exercise its rights in that regard, instead of putting some more money into the show?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d1efe24f0c4e049e2ad1b8dc3b1344\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Crown then thought it was better to leave arrangements as they were. It is confident that when we reach the point of 2009 the cash flow being generated will be sufficient for repayment to occur of the debt owed to the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edc1903800604f84b75158928f9bc8e2\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Nevertheless, given the track record of the management of the company, is the public not left with a perception that the Government is acting as a kind of political sugar daddy to this company, playing favourites with a floundering management style at the expense of the taxpayer; if not, why not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231ebde747d754b35adabc0d606d1d1e8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think I can say that, on reflection and in retrospect, had the then Minister of Finance\u2014the foundation leader of the ACT party\u2014not entered into the arrangement, things might have been better. But they were entered into. This Government inherited a large amount of money at risk, and it was better in fact to loan a further $3.6 million than risk the $50 million going under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5db4d801c3749a08e1081f2538d281b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the two appropriate documents that demonstrate Mr Dunne supported the initial decision in 1986 of Roger Douglas, and the decision of Bill Birch and Jim Bolger in 1996 when Mr Dunne was a Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d523444349d54f3a99c35318baee2011\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EDocuments not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab2c464ab01e4fa88ae20415c56c69d5\u0022\u003EAlcohol and Drug Abuse\u2014Youth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e1bc2e49754bf19679a7fddadbcae3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Is he satisfied that the Government has employed appropriate measures to protect New Zealand children from the misuse of alcohol and illicit drugs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f98f84e03d624ad6873211c254e04477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f98f84e03d624ad6873211c254e04477\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Of course central government has a vital role to play in equipping families, communities, and agencies of the State to combat the problem of drug and alcohol abuse. I cannot say that we can ever be satisfied\u2014\u201Cwe\u201D being the collective Parliament or any individual Government\u2014that we have done enough, but the National Drug Policy aims to improve the health and well-being of New Zealanders by encouraging the development of strategies and programmes that prevent and reduce drug-related harm. It is a very wide-ranging and comprehensive programme, as its website shows, that includes $66 million committed over the last 2 years alone, plus a drink culture change programme announced in June this year funded by a levy on alcohol sales. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223114bbd927cc4b708ffd02e2bc2362a5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister talked to any of his Cabinet colleagues or coalition colleagues about the misuse of a very serious issue under the guise of his latest glossy publication to be sent around this country\u2014under his name and using taxpayers\u2019 dollars\u2014to seek political advantage for a very small party, to do with an issue that should cross party lines, and is far more important, surely, than petty party politics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0278806b3e54c74ae4c773e5aecdc2a\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am very proud of the work that the Government is doing on drug and alcohol abuse prevention. That brochure was funded by my ministerial budget and authorised by the Auditor-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229df14186e554c018b1efbb6ebac6311\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government failed to do anything effective about the significant damage caused to thousands of newborn New Zealanders by alcohol consumption during pregnancy, despite the fact that during the last 2 years there have been two petitions on the subject, and his officials have recognised that: \u201CIt\u2019s a real problem and it\u2019s under-reported.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d9bd6de83f435bb71c4fa8585158f0\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised by the Ministry of Health that it has been preparing an application to the Australia New Zealand Food Authority for this provision to be agreed to on a trans-Tasman basis. I will be very interested in the outcome of that application. I believe that, obviously, if New Zealand children are under any threat, then New Zealand as a sovereign nation will have the ability to deal with that matter, if it has to, on its own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265607fbb4fe483eabd714ed1b8f1b05\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Auckland Regional Community Action Project on Alcohol study, which showed that over half the retailers visited sold alcohol to under-18-year-olds without asking for identification, focused entirely on off-licence premises; and in the light of other studies that suggest it is the volume of alcohol consumed by young people that has increased, rather than the frequency of drinking, does he agree that off-licence premises are more likely to generate binge drinking because they sell alcohol at cheaper prices and without the supervision that licensed premises offer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9f2a8d9e8bc4f5faabf730686a90aa6\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The sale or provision of alcohol to those who are under the legal age is a serious matter no matter where or how it is done. There is plenty of evidence that a number of outlets are doing that\u2014at the grocery level, less at the supermarket level, and more at the off-licence level. Unfortunately, one has to say that there is also evidence that something like 50 percent of the alcohol given to young people is given to them by their parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b68338e84b0a41c79ad72e79b52deab1\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the 2003 study by Saffer and Dave of the US National Bureau of Economic Research, which indicated that a complete ban on all alcohol advertising could reduce adolescent monthly alcohol participation by about 24 percent and binge participation by about 42 percent; and, my knowing of his support for this issue, will he make a commitment today to do all he can to persuade the ministerial committee on drug policy to support at its next meeting a ban on alcohol advertising?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e07a9d5725147f691245722555e73b2\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a lot of statistics about the effects of advertising and promotion of alcohol, and I have a conservative view in terms of the way it is promoted. I have to say, however, that the most significant piece of evidence I have had from a lot of jurisdictions is that the single most effective step that this Parliament could take would be to raise the age of entitlement to purchase alcohol to 20 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f48f3ec984f438486255024a47abc78\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister take any advice or receive any reports that said that by putting his name to the brochure that has come out he would add to the cause of defeating this scourge, or would mitigate against people joining the cause in the way that other people suspect; depending on his answer, why would he do that when the issue is so serious?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d905becf2664ccf8252928d93db0d71\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I think the issue is serious. That is why I took the step, in terms of financial propriety, of getting advice from the Auditor-General. I also thought very carefully about the wording of that brochure. I tell the member that we have had a positive response from the something like 600 schools the brochure was mailed to, with 25 percent wanting more of those leaflets and more information about the programmes the Government is running. I think that is a very positive effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229186c98233b34510b2cfa7a50c25c72d\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s answer to my previous question, in which he acknowledged the risks to youth in their purchasing alcohol at off-licence premises, would he therefore support the common-sense solution offered by Paul Adams in his member\u2019s bill of increasing the age at which alcohol can be purchased at off-licences to 20 years, while keeping the age at which alcohol can be purchased at on-licence premises at 18 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfab4cd2ce4a4969a264acd61736db51\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am all for simplicity and low compliance costs in legislation, and if we give a mixed message like that, it makes the situation even more complex than it is now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222b39a88f841419ca30d58c15bfbdcd4\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a report that demonstrates the gross under-reporting of foetal alcohol syndrome under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2b7abf4448445fab12e3b0c0c1c27ed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e228e4eb354f788b8d646b1fbe93b5\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a study called Alcohol Advertising and Alcohol Consumption by Adolescents, by Saffer and Dave, published in 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3edafc6fede4902a3e3b40b0b669504\u0022\u003EPrisons\u2014Management\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d52695f527ca45008b73cc4a8675f09e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he stand by his statement to the House of 18 November 2003: \u201CIf we look at the public prison system in New Zealand and compare its management of remand prisons with private prisons, we see that the public prison service is, on average, $7,000 cheaper than the private prison.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002261d8b8e0a27d45c2ac747a859861aeb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261d8b8e0a27d45c2ac747a859861aeb6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because it was based on costings provided to me by my department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c589ad9a6af4dc6a5fa92a608bf17a1\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government can apparently run the Auckland Central Remand Prison cheaper than the private sector, why is it budgeting to spend an extra $8.5 million running that prison when it takes it over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d89d9010b5f484a93a6789323e0f8a3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I am extraordinarily pleased that the member asked that question, because the answer is simply that the previous National Government funded the Auckland Central Remand Prison up until the end of the contract. It did not fund it beyond that. This money would be required whether or not the prison was in private hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad76f45135484179b349b5fc8532ab8c\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: How does the overall performance of New Zealand prisons compare internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292dc80e3573e45d6bde089f43c36afd1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It compares very favourably. As I previously reported to the House, New Zealand prisons have a lower cost per day than those in Australia, England, Wales, and Canada. New Zealand also has the lowest rates of suicide and assault, compared with comparable jurisdictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d317183929814768885d74fe43dcb21b\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that for the Government to pursue a policy of privatising prisons and drastically increasing the prison population, as advocated by the leader of the National Party, would lead to a dangerous Americanisation of our justice system, and what effect does he think that would have on the integrity of our justice system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab3b7267447a43e2972c7ad7754dc446\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Except for the parenthesis comment about that being advocated by a party, the rest of the question is in order, and that part of it will be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022198c6d855a564d9ab0a7c34c11f471b7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Except for the part in parenthesis, yes, I agree. The fact is that in the United States, the private prison lobby is now a very well-entrenched lobby. It lobbies Governments to get tougher on law and order, thereby meaning more people are put in prisons, leading to more profit by private prisons. That is precisely the issue that has been raised by the National Party in its attempt to try to court votes. The point is that the only person who should be taking away people\u2019s liberty is the State; it should not be done by the private sector for private profit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221c69fa21a694eaca3a5d15bdcd2d494\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister not realise that his statements make no sense when he tells the House that the public prison service can operate the private prison for $7,000 an inmate less, but his own official departmental documents show that it will cost $28,000 an inmate more once the Government takes the prison over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec0986be1c3241fc9202e096f80506dc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The problem with the member is that he does not read the papers properly. The other problem is that he opposes having prisons in his electorate, but supports Don Brash building 10 more prisons\u2014and that party wants to take away the right under the Resource Management Act to appeal against that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeee262a5f5c48c890d6eba57804d0c0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now the member will come to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022562b007248d24579a100e1a31450af5a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry; I apologise. The fact is that the Auckland Central Remand Prison in public ownership will have to be funded, just like it would have to be funded if it were under private ownership. The previous National Government did not provide funding for it past the contract ending in 2005, and that is why the $8 million has to be provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e347f8caf9f34eb7bb523e46e03cb725\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister choose to ignore reports like the one in the New Zealand Herald on 10 September 2003, which said that since Australian Correctional Management had taken over the Auckland Central Remand Prison: \u201CThere has been a revolution in prison management. A new approach has set standards previously thought impossible across every area of the prison.\u201D, and that despite handling some of New Zealand\u2019s most dangerous and high-risk inmates, it remains the safest prison in the country for both staff and inmates alike?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022331ae21778784759bc56bbfd729c41c8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Because I do not believe everything I read in the New Zealand Herald.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb659dea28d441b9c7e3678aafe4fae\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister read his own official papers that state funding is required for the ongoing operation of the Auckland Central Remand Prison in addition to the current funding of $11.1 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9d802d0d7fa4a23a5c17ed3640b0192\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. As I have explained to the member, despite the opposition from the Department of Corrections, at the time when the previous National Government funded that prison it funded the prison until the end of the contract, and not beyond that. That is what the funding is required for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b695dde63f043da87f9b65a027f3e24\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a number of documents. The first is the Budget bid of the Department of Corrections, which shows it will cost $20 million to run the prison and the department needs an extra $8.5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7339a21e5004b8883f21adb93c39792\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d78cd439894451888f39d0c1901702\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document from the Audit Office about the additional $8.5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298600b694fc2475980ba1acc7ee381e4\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an official document from the Department of Corrections about the additional $8.5 million, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb269c4c6c8e437bbfdc7467a130d2e5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd28eadeb7a245fd8da92f34681804ae\u0022\u003EVisas\u2014Pakistani Immigrants\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb40a8d666cc41df9e4b7ed9311ca7bc\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Did Senior Sergeant Mike Fulcher receive a police report in or about May this year from the South Asian liaison officer for the New Zealand Police, with photographs and fingerprints, detailing an immigration scam involving Pakistani nationals entering New Zealand through Tonga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00229dde290974f145bab82ede25ca262213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dde290974f145bab82ede25ca262213\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Police have, with the additional information provided today, been able to identify that an allegation relating to a Tongan immigration scam was reported by a south Auckland sergeant to his immediate superior, Senior Sergeant Fulcher, in April this year. The two-page report outlined an allegation that came from an informant in Auckland that Pakistani nationals had been obtaining holiday visas from the Immigration Service office in Tonga in exchange for money. As the House was told yesterday, the Immigration Service has advised that no such visas have been issued to Pakistani nationals from Tonga since 1999-2000, a fact that casts doubt on at least that part of the allegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca8f4ec15504144809a3c1b493ae1db\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday the Minister of Police denied that such a report existed. [Interruption] We get this every time, and you do nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cc303dbeac94aa394df62ba233c4a82\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have warned members about interjecting. The member will please carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1c48b85c74e47f0a3a629a9ff7ed7a3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: That was a former Minister of Immigration trying to have a go. If she wants to say that the Minister of Police did not, Hansard shows clearly that he did, and I am happy to read it out. The Minister of Police came to the House and twice denied\u2014and I look to members to agree\u2014that such a report existed. We now have the Minister of Police saying oh, yes, there is a report. The standard expectation in the House is that as soon as a Minister realises that he or she has inadvertently misled the House, he or she should correct the record. The Minister did no such thing. I ask you whether you consider that to be acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0ebd20690c543bfa250949e94442d68\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: There are a couple of points there. First of all, obviously, the Minister yesterday gave an answer based on the information made available to him by his officials that no such report had been found. Today, with more information provided\u2014it would be very useful if members would actually provide the information in the first case when they submit the question, as opposed to playing little games in their question\u2014it has been possible to find the report. Even then, it is not a police report \u201Cdetailing an immigration scam\u201D, it is an allegation made to a police officer for which no other evidence has been found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210672fd89f704da4ab54923dd4b4b53a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me say that the member raised a point of order accurately. It should have been corrected when the Minister became aware of the inaccuracy. The fact of the matter is that the Minister may not have been wrong yesterday and he may not be wrong today. There is a discrepancy there, and I say to the Minister that he should have come to the House and corrected it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d341131041084c548a9980bfda1bde22\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: How come a police officer can write a report detailing an immigration scam and providing names and dates, yet the Minister of Immigration and the Minister of Police deny any knowledge of it; how on earth can the public have any confidence in our border security?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227000049f10304c94a1df5aa35d82a02d\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Every year there are thousands of such reports written by police on various matters over a wide range of areas. If the member had chosen on at least two occasions earlier this year to give some details, then an explanation could have been provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a0a825dfc6f4cfb8f71507915234d1d\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any evidence that such a scam, if it existed, was successful at gaining entry for Pakistani nationals via Tonga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220546bf9dbd18435180eed78cf8248adc\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, there is no evidence that the scam actually existed. So far, all we have is an allegation reported from one south Auckland police officer to another. If the scam did exist, it was apparently a failure because the Immigration Service has confirmed that there have been no visitor visas issued to Pakistani nationals by the Tongan office since 1999-2000\u2014fraudulent or otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a98ddab14b46db8b7bf4c20d25c7e2\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: What investigations are the police undertaking of New Zealand Immigration Service staff, given that 29 allegations of fraud against staff were proven between 2001 and 2003, and that there are now 30 new investigations for last year, and three just in the last month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022168ac701cfb545609a9495239847337a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that information with me, but I will supply it to the member as soon as I can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c117577490c24add89ac31855e9372c5\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that this police report on form 258, identified as the source, a Mr Mohammed Shaheed, who was the organiser of this scam, and that the real reason no evidence has been found for this immigration scam is neither the police nor the Immigration Service has undertaken any investigation of it, and that we have the Minister of Police and the Minister of Immigration completely in the dark, and once again it requires Opposition parties to do their job for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022148a436a3fd0482a9a7442f511def6bb\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The person the member mentioned, Mr Shaheed, was an overstayer and he was removed from this country on 22 April 2004. Of course if we get the information, if responsible members take their complaints where they should go, rather than try to make political capital out of it, this place would be a lot better off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d2db2c2174430786f6c967fea9b40b\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister keeps demanding that we provide the evidence. The police have provided the report. We have pointed him in the direction of the report. What else do we have to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c13d66efb042df88f8fc535704b774\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order, and the member knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022864381ea85f24dff95f139cf9e2d13ad\u0022\u003EWaste Strategy\u2014Parliamentary Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022550a85f2217040f3ac7879bb145a080c\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Has she made any representation to the General Manager of the Parliamentary Service to implement the New Zealand waste strategy within Parliament; if so, what was the response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00228bf6606f465b427097bf156253259b55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bf6606f465b427097bf156253259b55\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I wrote to the Parliamentary Service on 27 July inviting it to join the Ministry for the Environment Govt3 programme, which aims to help Government agencies improve the sustainability of their actions. Ministry officials are assisting parliamentary management with ideas to minimise the environmental impact of Parliament\u2019s operations. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea9aab8ab124653bed5b3285f4c21ef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am just about to ask a member to leave, who has disobeyed my instructions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282225ef6941b4757977d7cc8784ac29d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8204e2bb2b64c3786cf4b17ccfa92c0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da4c6122798f45358d1c9113593d3956\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that it is important for the Government, as the most visible face of central government, to lead by example in terms of its resource use and waste production?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022474a7eb73b914ef2bfce89e6ce5c9093\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I would not want to focus on just one Government agency, because I believe that a school, for example, is the most evident Government agency as regards our students. But I am looking forward to the Parliamentary Service joining the Govt3 agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022682e923bb00048ab90e18bc2a820271f\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: What practical steps is the Government taking to reduce waste?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1f58a6ef2414add9e4d42a0b5f1fe62\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I can give two examples. On Tuesday I will sign a new packaging accord with industry, recyclers, and central and local government to reduce the amount of packaging that gets dumped, and the following week I will be highlighting activities of Government agencies that have signed up to the Govt3 programme to improve environmental sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022856da071933f4df197faaf2aef0fc5f8\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that Parliament is acting in accordance with the intention of the New Zealand waste strategy, and is it leading by example when it refuses to purchase recycled paper for use in its printers and photocopiers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe4eaa1efaa4039bd9b7a762ddabf78\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Under the Govt3 programme special topic groups have been set up. They cover such topics as office waste and office paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222cbe904a7cf4cbfbb05154f90f6df1a\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that Parliament is acting in accordance with the intention of the New Zealand waste strategy, and is it leading by example when it replaces glasses in select committee rooms with plastic cups, and when plastic containers in food outlets replace paper bags?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb604ff892974cb484fbe8b8a30dc5c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has very little responsibility for that. The Speaker does, and the member can always approach me. The Minister can give an opinion if she likes, but it will be a very brief one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1940f27d8cd4569ba77f88368b52a7d\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is encouraging the Parliamentary Service to work closely in the Govt3 programme with the Ministry for the Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220996dc930a984dadb4d139f0ad2ae1bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Is there is any prospect that the adoption of the waste strategy by Parliament could lead to a reduction in the unnecessary tabling of departmental reports, answers to parliamentary questions, Hansard, newspaper reports, and the photocopying of material that is already available or has already been tabled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c404f79af304ce081a3a9930b043d41\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I live in hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f7f09a3a85c4b9ebe66ee6b86aadeb2\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: What advice will the Minister provide on ongoing employer education and encouragement programmes to decrease resource use and waste production, and what will the Minister do now to see that the performance of Parliament in respect of resource use and waste generation is improved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d7a338b1ad74fd6bc957d2186e723d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Once again the Minister can give an opinion but she cannot comment on a department for which she is not responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1b6e09880e433384fab99d1b97cc29\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, I am very interested in the Parliamentary Service joining the Govt3 programme, in which Government departments work through a number of issues to do with the management of waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af04dbdc591c4e6e8388341e3351bac2\u0022\u003EDefence Force\u2014Project Protector and Multi-role Vessel\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bcfb1e440994c379457866d13332b75\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Defence: Has he been advised of the complaint relating to Project Protector and the acquisition of the multi-role vessel, made to the Office of the Ombudsmen; if so, what is the nature of the complaint?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7a59433753d401781ea0c10a238a0d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7a59433753d401781ea0c10a238a0d6\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I am not aware of any such complaint, but I am aware that agents acting for one of the interested parties that did not make the shortlist has made a complaint regarding process to the Office of the Ombudsmen. As I am not a party to that complaint, I am not aware of the details. I can only suggest that the member discuss the matter with his former law firm colleague and former fellow naval reservist, Mr Michael Stephens, who is advising the agents who laid the complaint, and who, incidentally, is also acting for one of the disappointed shortlisted companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df8d6d6789ec4376beec24ce775ff87b\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government chosen a conventional roll-on roll-off vessel that will not be able to land men and material in sea states above sea state 2, when the likely area of operation of the multi-role vessel will be an offloading requirement in the deep waters and associated swells of the Pacific\u2014conditions far different from the millpond of sea state 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225104b4ee955f452795e13b43ce9c614e\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The contract as signed with Tenix is compliant with the documents issued inviting tenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cccc36ee4a2c4e91bcb9499043b650e1\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: What is his view of the New Zealand defence officials who, in analysing the tender registration bid of Hyundai, the biggest shipyard in the world, incorrectly recorded the capital base of Hyundai as $26 million, instead of $26 billion, so that Hyundai, which, in fact, had a history of building a ship in New Zealand, missed out and was not able to enter the bid round?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff358d744f294ff8afb313bdebd8296d\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I will not in any way contravene the appropriate commercial processes in the tender process. I suggest the member talks to his former legal and reservist colleague on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252241dc89d654dd38a50bd12a7f693a8\u0022\u003ERacing Industry\u2014Promotion\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534e5a3f4fd84e829fa89d5a85f74cc8\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Racing: How has the Government contributed to ensuring the New Zealand racing industry can look forward to a prosperous future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00221ec128ef426b49ba83b319d416bfa5ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ec128ef426b49ba83b319d416bfa5ad\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E This Government has worked hard to ensure that the racing industry has a modern statutory framework that allows racing to control its own destiny. The new Racing Act has been in force for a year, and the Government has appointed a strong, capable New Zealand Racing Board that has already laid the foundations for revitalising New Zealand racing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227948a599269c462b8c3d8277411b1eb0\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What has the New Zealand Racing Board achieved in its first year in office, and what has been the industry\u2019s response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d549079959c40a386cbc783768d54a6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The board has laid the foundations for growth. It has commissioned comprehensive research that will underpin various strategies for growing the industry. The board has set itself a target of increasing its financial return to racing from $79 million to $100 million per annum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002279e58dd4dd52469587f4fe8331e06b11\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207ea6f00575546f2a002a4c94d3d555f\u0022\u003ECivil Aviation Authority\u2014Allegations of Telephone Taping\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u002244082976475e4104a1d94d420f9ef738\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244082976475e4104a1d94d420f9ef738\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal statement in relation to allegations made in this House on Tuesday by Mr Hide that I misled this House over the matter of the taping of telephone calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef5937fc0a44a96af839ea54ed67e8b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make a personal explanation. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3d9bef1bb9421fa79d746fd8e9e3b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3d9bef1bb9421fa79d746fd8e9e3b4\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a letter to the Speaker on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f0a553ff3614730af4a09fb86ab56d7\u0022\u003EFisheries Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c3ba11476db49d084ace5b4383ba9e8\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffbef1c3e32a464a83e68ff6bda8b19d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffbef1c3e32a464a83e68ff6bda8b19d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 4) be now read a third time. The bill amends the Fisheries Act 1966. It provides for the introduction of scampi into the quota management system on 1 October 2004\u2014a key recommendation of the select committee report on scampi\u2014and corrects the general problem with the current quota allocation mechanisms identified during the process of introducing North Island eels into the quota management system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EMembers have expressed some concern regarding the new quota management area 3 and area 4A boundaries for scampi. Scampi are currently managed within 10 fishery management areas that were set in the late 1980s. As part of the process to bring scampi into the quota management system, the Ministry of Fisheries sought independent scientific advice on the best future management regime for the fishery. The proposed changes are based on the strong recommendations of that advice. Scientific analysis of catch rates, by-catch, and scampi biology provide evidence that scampi on the Mernoo Bank and the north-west Chatham Rise are one stock and should be managed as such. Under the old boundaries, that stock is split in two. The benefit of the new management boundaries provided in this bill is that I can sustainably provide more quota than under the old boundaries, because I can provide for new areas to be developed. To date, fishers have taken sustainable catches of scampi mainly from one small part of the two existing management areas on the Chatham Rise. We know that the habitat and populations of scampi attend across a much wider area. The new management boundaries separate out the existing stock of scampi, to allow better management and provide development of the fishery, particularly in the waters surrounding the Chatham Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI have yet to decide on the new total allowable commercial catches in the proposed new areas 3 and 4A. The Ministry of Fisheries is currently finalising advice to me, after consulting on a proposal to increase the catch limits in the new areas 3 and 4A from their current combined total of 310 tonnes to 460 tonnes. As a result of the boundary changes, if the catch limit increases are implemented the amount of Crown quota available for tender in area 3 will more than double. There is also potential for quota to be allocated to the Chatham Islands Enterprise Trust under the new boundary arrangements. The amount, if any, of such quota will also ultimately depend on the total allowable commercial catch set for the new area 4A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIn closing, I need to comment on the personal price a number of senior staff in the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries and, later, the Ministry of Fisheries have paid in the course of this long debate. It is true that the State Services Commission investigation found no substance to the serious allegations that were made against those individuals. That is, of course, welcome. However, the personal toll on the individuals and their families of living with such accusations hanging over them must be acknowledged. I thank those staff for their professionalism and integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022846b3f6e4cf94cbdaabf19425ed1f9a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022846b3f6e4cf94cbdaabf19425ed1f9a8\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E As members will be quite aware, there is quite a history in this House with regard to the scampi debacle, if one likes. The unfortunate activities in the scampi fishery over the last decade culminated in a parliamentary select committee inquiry, whereby myself, my colleague David Carter, Janet Mackey, Clayton Cosgrove, Doug Woolerton, who was replaced by the Hon Winston Peters, and others spent considerable time looking into those issues. We became\u2014more than most, I think\u2014educated in the greater overview of what went on during that decade, both out on the water, in the different scampi management areas, and behind closed doors in the business rooms of the fishing industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E We also gained huge insight into what the Ministry of Fisheries\u2014previously the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries\u2014was up to during that time. It is interesting to note that the unfortunate incidents that unravelled in the ministry happened under a number of Governments\u2014the Labour Government in the late 1980s, the National Government in the 1990s, then a Labour Government again. Fortunately, we were able to form a select committee that did not have a political agenda, if one likes. There were members on that committee who certainly had personal agendas, but no particular party had a party political agenda. That is why that particular select committee made a whole lot of progress, and we were pleased with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAt the same time, and roughly in parallel, the State Services Commission also had an inquiry into the management of the scampi fishery. It was looking at allegations of corruption against State-employed officials, and it, too, spent a considerable amount of time looking at the management of scampi. Interestingly, the two inquiries came back with similar findings, although I would have to say that the State Services Commission inquiry was a lot harsher on Ministry of Fisheries officials than we were. The State Services Commission said that the Ministry of Fisheries officials had been unprofessional, ad hoc, and inconsistent, and had little regard for fairness. That was a sad indictment on those officials at that time. We can only hope\u2014and I am sure Mr Ewen-Street will comment on this\u2014that they have learnt something from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe also heard from a number of aggrieved fishers who had been effectively locked out of the fishery. Their names are Mr Trevor Goodship; Mr Wayne Howell and A G Cave; a third party, United Fisheries; Vautier Shelf Company No 14; Mr Milton Roderique; Mr Noel McLellan; and Sealord Group\u2014seven aggrieved fishers that we were able to identify had just cause to be in some way compensated. The committee recommended that they should receive ex gratia payments. Some members of the committee, by putting their fingers in the wind, came up with figures of $400,000 for most of them, and $900,000 for Mr Trevor Goodship. Committee members said that those payments should be a minimum payment to those particular aggrieved fishers. The Government came back and said that they would be a maximum payment to those aggrieved fishers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Sealord Group was left out of that list for two reasons. I gather that one was that the Labour Government felt it was too big a company to receive compensation, which would be just a drop in the ocean to it, so it ignored justice. Winston Peters, from New Zealand First, opposed it because the Sealord Group is half-owned by Asians, and, of course, he wanted to take a racist approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed15723b53734c139604f050fafbd75a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Would you sit that junior member down and tell him he cannot use the word \u201Cracist\u201D in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba85b0758b724247ae35bd01fe03d658\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002286166d2a9aab41d49210b16deeaca3cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286166d2a9aab41d49210b16deeaca3cd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022127cbd3ab1754f10ada1daa472e7f445\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Would that member sit down and shut up while I am talking! I am entitled to make my point of order without his jumping up and down like the inexperienced novice that he is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf11c6e5e0d4440da05142a08462c13a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That has been settled. Could we please have the member\u2019s point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022805ad0a9092b406bbb95e67a849290a4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: He cannot make those statements\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec7e2f17b4c5428ea83ec9b654a5faab\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487fd9baa1c14cbb8ade6eb063152836\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Now he has done it twice. If he does it a third time, he should be told to leave the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f22290417b54909b33b7b55ad9586ea\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I will be the judge of that. The member is encouraging that behaviour. I have the member\u2019s point of order, and I thank him for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227232fd2cec264bacaad48d61a674e469\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I have my point of order heard in silence where that member is concerned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a39c636b3844d359a61d4ea4e57c515\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! My Heatley is not to repeat that behaviour when a point of order is in progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b060c06c5c4849ee91c17d9bc0b6204e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That member cannot make allegations like that. He should get up, withdraw and apologise, and wash his mouth out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022903698eac2c3471896a4fc51ad7f03ec\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Unfortunately, Sealord Group has not seen any justice in print, and certainly will not see any justice in practice, and we are disappointed with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EHowever, the National Party will support this bill. It is our view that scampi should come into the quota management system as soon as possible, and, of course, this bill allows that to happen on 1 October of this year. It is our view that the scampi fishery not being in the quota management system is unsustainable, simply because there is a race to catch fish. There is little regard for ensuring that fishing occurs during the time of the year when scampi are mature, and there is no incentive at the moment to do so. Juvenile fish are being brought up, fishing-grounds are being targeted, and there is a fair degree of tension out on the water in the scampi fishing-grounds. So we support scampi coming into the quota management system, and will certainly vote for the bill with that in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe also note, and refer back to, our concerns over the boundary changes to quota management area No. 3 and quota management area No. 4A. Members will recall that quota management area No. 3 is off the Canterbury Bight, on the east coast of the South Island, and quota management area No. 4A is further east, around the Chatham Rise. We were concerned that that larger area, quota management areas No. 3 and No. 4A, had a dividing line within it, and that that particular dividing line was going to be shifted well to the east. We knew that would have consequences with regard to the amount of Crown quota available for tender or available for settlement on the aggrieved fishers. That was of concern to us, but what was of more concern, what was the most significant and paramount concern, was the fact that shifting that line may make the scampi fishery in that area less sustainable, and the fish in some respects may be pillaged and the fishing-grounds damaged. We were given assurances by the Minister of Fisheries in the House\u2014and I thank the Minister for giving those assurances\u2014that that line was shifted for sustainability and utilisation reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe now know that there are two specific fishing-grounds, in areas 3 and 4A. The line as it is now shifted in this bill\u2014and the National Party endorses this change\u2014splits those two fishing-grounds cleanly. That means that the take of fish can be increased and everybody is a winner. The fishery is a winner because it is being fished sustainably; the fishers with quota are winners because they are able to get more quota and improve their businesses; and, of course, the aggrieved fishers, or others wanting to get into the scampi fishery, are winners too, because there is excess quota for them to purchase. We are delighted about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational will be supporting this bill, with that proviso. Our prime concern, having worked through the other issues, was always those boundaries. I would like to say that working through the scampi inquiry was an arduous process. Most of us on the select committee were focused on getting a good result, and I would like to acknowledge all the members on the committee, particularly the Labour Party, National Party, and ACT members. Others certainly pursued their own agenda, but that was OK because we came out with the right result. We were not influenced in any way by others on the committee. We are delighted to see scampi going in to the quota management system this year. That accords with the wishes of the majority of those in the seafood industry, who simply want to sustainably utilise the scampi fishery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf7f829053ad4a298e91cc09b84107d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf7f829053ad4a298e91cc09b84107d7\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (Labour): \u003C/span\u003EI am pleased to have the opportunity to support this bill. The Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 4) is timely. It provides for the introduction of scampi into the quota management system, and that really needs to happen. The Primary Production Committee has done an excellent job, and we look forward to better management of our quota fisheries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022de69db063ecd4362b2c190f31f41228f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de69db063ecd4362b2c190f31f41228f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think this is the first speech I have ever made on the issue in respect of this bill. It is a fact that for about 50 percent of the meetings I replaced my colleague Doug Woolerton on the Primary Production Committee, and that was because he asked me to, and because since 1986 I have taken an interest in fishing. I was the National Party\u2019s associate spokesperson on that subject, before it foolishly expelled me from its caucus on the matter of the Sealord\u2019s deal, circa October 1992. Of course, National knew everything about fishing then, but somebody was right and somebody was wrong, and we know today who was right and who was foolishly wrong. One would not think that the National Party had handled the legislation in 1992, by the way its members talked today. But as I have always said, their blood type, their DNA, and their fingerprints are all over this issue, and their speeches display a word that begins with \u201Ch\u201D that I cannot possibly use because it is outside the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI wish to say, first of all, that the Chatham Islands Enterprise Trust entitlement in the future\u2014off shore for 450 miles\u2014is a sound idea. Those people deserve special treatment in respect of the resources that abound their lands, and we should have regard to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut I want to mention, also, the question of the affected parties\u2014Goodship and others. I want to tell them that, though they may not know it, there is one reason they are being compensated as a benchmark in fairness, and that is that there was a New Zealand First presence on that committee, and no member of that committee can deny it\u2014first, as to the principle of fair compensation, and, second, as to the amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a679d44a53e4bd68ba8de8f48fa7aef\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: The amount, maybe!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220308ae54b060422793c87e794c8d241e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: If there is no amount set, then no amount will be paid. Goodship, who is bound to get $950,000, and the rest, who get in excess of $400,000, as a benchmark, owe it to one party\u2014New Zealand First\u2014even though they do not know it. I just wish some members would go out and tell those people, disgruntled though they might be, the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI want to say this. The National Party members at all times in the select committee were. as always, all over the place. We found out today during the third reading that they support the bill. I saw their spokesperson, Mr Heatley, get up and say recently in Whangarei, at the recreational fishing conference at Onerahi, all sorts of statements in front of all those recreational fishers, who were utterly bewildered as to, first, what he did not know, and, second, what he was prepared to say. But he also said yesterday, during the Committee stage, that everywhere he goes amongst the industry, people always tell him what a great spokesperson he is. Well, name one person in the industry who thinks that boy on a man\u2019s mission is a good spokesman when it comes to fishing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cab841edd7624059b768d8eb6efd2490\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It will have to go to the Privileges Committee!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221375df7071d641c68b76d739e3bffd48\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I will get to that soon. But that is what he said. I do not know one person in the fishing industry who thinks he is a competent spokesperson, yet he had the arrogance to say at Onerahi: \u201CIf you\u2019ve got any problems, come and see me.\u201D That is what he said. I thought: \u201CBy gee, they\u2019ve become arrogant so fast and so sudden.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ab82e2f02e4d1ea276ee0bf4d95290\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What does the \u201CGreat Debater\u201D think?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f13a2aa179a43b0917e81d9dc140bf0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the \u201CGreat Debater\u201D, or the \u201CGreat Communicator\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb92ef480744218a14de318ada7cbd0\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201CGreat Pretender\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0d68fff12c248b19351b18600bc0cde\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201CGreat Pretender\u201D is never here. The \u201CGreat Debater\u201D never debates. Once a week for about 10 minutes we see this great Leader of the Opposition, and for the rest of the time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221072bdf3b0774fc096e074151e0d2fc8\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s his name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ce8c278a6e4d69afa86f7891ff07e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: What is his name? Well, the point here is where is the \u201CGreat Communicator\u201D. Well, we know where he is: dodging the House, dodging accountability, dodging being exposed, and dodging being shown not to have the capacity to do what every Leader of the Opposition must do\u2014take on the Government day in and day out and show some leadership. He wins all his fights by 100 yards, and out there we have all those journalists and reporters saying: \u201COh, he\u2019s the next Prime Minister.\u201D Stop dreaming! One has to show\u2014as overseas, in free democracies, leaders of other Opposition parties show\u2014some leadership, and the capacity to do the job that one\u2019s caucus tells one to do. Thus far all we have got is rank plagiarism of New Zealand First policies. He reads our speeches back to us, and claims that the policies are National\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe National Party members were all over the place. At three different times on three different occasions, with the knowledge of their leader, Don Brash, they alleged corruption against one of the members of the committee, and they are facing serious defamation claims as a result. We will see them through to the very end. If they have any idea that TVNZ and its money and its bank will save them, or save Mr David Carter or Mr Shirley, they can stop dreaming about it now. One thing is protection in a defamation case, and it is the protection and defence of truth. What was said was a tissue of lies\u2014most particularly, when I was not here to defend myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9d56b85c79745bab87037807a9d4a3d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am surprised you did not bring the member to heel. It is quite incorrect to refer in the House to a matter that is before the courts in the way that the member has done, particularly when he is a party to that action against another member of this House. That is grossly in breach of Standing Orders, and I ask you to call him to desist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6cb676040624e96aef837d960d80802\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I point out that Mr Shirley needs to listen and pay more attention to what is going on in the House. I said that what was said was a tissue of lies. If the glove fits then wear it. But only then, when he makes his complaint, can he possibly have any right to bring a point of order in the way he did. If he wants me to say he is one of them, then I will. But at that point of time I had not done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bfadcf733164bdf8b85e4dd12c52aad\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thought it was another matter that the member was calling a point of order on. There is no need to give any ruling in respect of what the Rt Hon Winston Peters is saying. Please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcadafc08ad04af6834ac22af8817a83\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: For the remainder of the time, the National Party was all over the place. I want to ask Mr Heatley this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9e9beb85f8e4937b52317bfc1c83ac6\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to give the old man a breather.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df61064800824079a2e035eb244c6835\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d24b1fccfa54fbcaedc1098f8afa81e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You just heard what that member said. He is about to leave the House because he cannot defend himself. Let me say that I will be around long after he has gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a8c3b1f8994e34af2f8456012d49d9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Can we move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef1a5c264d64bf8bde92b72ee3de05b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: But I want to ask the National Party and Mr Heatley this: are they prepared to tell the House today what the ownership, control, and direction of the Sealord\u2019s company is? The Japanese are not known for putting up 50 percent of the money, and giving the control, the direction, and the leadership over to someone else. Where in the world have the Japanese or any Japanese company ever done that? I tell Mr Heatley or Mr David Carter to get up and tell the House what the Sealord\u2019s ownership, control, and management is, and if they cannot do that they should sit down and shut up. If they cannot do that, they should stop making stupid complaints born of the National Party\u2019s ignorance. They should be the last people to talk about influence when it comes to politics; they should be the very last people to do that. I ask Mr David Carter to tell us who it was that Don Brash saw when he was abroad\u2014in Europe, in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c83c9e5d9374fa9aca464198921eea9\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I wouldn\u2019t have a clue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f8ce98a369744088f8c204ad9730309\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I know; he never has had a clue. But he should have a clue. He is a front-bench member of the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e366652de4db435db7fed94844614176\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: He was the numbers man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa6a61956bbc4ed88d63d2b0576015e2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He was the numbers man, so he should tell us who Don Brash saw. Were they not the very same people who were setting out to corrupt the National Party in 1988, 1989, and 1990, and who poured millions of dollars into the National Party\u2019s coffers? I was a front-bencher and I knew. That was why I got fired. I tell Mr David Carter not to tell me that those members do not know. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Shirley that being fired from the National Party Cabinet is a badge of honour. Unlike Mr Shirley, who would do anything to keep in office, we do not. We in New Zealand First believe in principles, in ethics, and in doing what is right. I know that is strange territory for the ACT party, whose members will do anything to survive in politics. But we in New Zealand First do not just talk about honour and principles; we act by them. That is why our party will massively hold the balance of political responsibility come 2005. When ACT has gone, when the Greens have gone, and when United Future and all the rest have gone, there will be one party, at least, here to keep the industry, the economy, and Parliament honest, and that party is New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6d2e35cd72c41ea81fbc7744371fa89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6d2e35cd72c41ea81fbc7744371fa89\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I believe that today is a sad day for democracy. Parliament became aware of a grave injustice in the scampi industry. I believe that almost every member of the Primary Production Committee, and perhaps of the House, has acknowledged the grave injustice that has been perpetrated, but now Parliament is proceeding to turn its back on that injustice, and I do think it is a sad day. I can only ask the Government: where do people go to receive justice in this country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThe scampi fishers were done wrong by a Government department. As a consequence, they went to the High Court and they won. The ministry ignored the outcome of that High Court decision. The fishers went to the Regulations Review Committee and they got support there, on the basis that they undertook to change their regulations if the court found that they had done wrong. The court did find that they had done wrong, but they reneged on their undertaking to the Regulations Review Committee. The scampi fishers went to the Court of Appeal, and they won a unanimous case there. The Court of Appeal found that they had been wronged. The ministry again ignored the outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThe scampi fishers succeeded in initiating two inquiries. Both of those inquiries returned scathing criticisms of the ministry. But the ministry has managed to ignore the outcome of those inquiries, to the extent that the chief executive officer put out a press release saying not that he was falling on his sword but that the ministry had been completely exonerated; that it had been vindicated. I think that all the members of the select committee were as amazed and as gobsmacked as I was when that came out. But Parliament has had the opportunity to right the wrongs that have been done to the people in the scampi industry. They have proved their case over and over again, yet this Parliament is setting that injustice in concrete. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI do not believe that this measure will put the scampi injustice issue to bed, as the Government so sincerely hopes it will. I think that the Kiwi psyche is so attuned to a sense of fair play that people know when they have been wronged, and the issue will come back to haunt this Government. I believe that some future Government, of whatever colour, will have to revisit scampi quota allocation, because such a wrong is being done to it. This is bad legislation, and I suspect that history will confirm that. The Greens oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5e0095a577c49fb88ef1b9a49dd3285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5e0095a577c49fb88ef1b9a49dd3285\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National): \u003C/span\u003EThe day the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 4) passes is the day that many people will see as the final settlement for what has been a very difficult issue. I fear that members will actually find that this is not the end of the matter, at all. The saga of the scampi fishery is a long and sad one. It has been characterised by vicious litigation, with fishers contesting the decisions of the ministry and being pitted one against the other as they contest what is obviously a very, very valuable resource. I am also saddened to note that the case has now moved to the courts, with two members of Parliament\u2014myself being one of them\u2014being sued by another member of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI became significantly involved in this issue in October 2002, when an Assignment television programme aired and repeated the allegations that had been made in this House 6 months earlier\u2014allegations of corruption amongst officials in the Ministry of Fisheries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e28640e3e5249529c41cb4a76f1a3bb\u0022\u003EIan Ewen-Street\u003C/span\u003E: Who made the allegations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2c8ec55880a4efc9200592b46ec628a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The allegations were made by none other than the Rt Hon Winston Peters. In the speech he made then, he promised to table voluminous amounts of evidence in the following weeks. To my knowledge, that evidence has not ever been tabled by the Rt Hon Winston Peters. After the Assignment programme aired in October 2002 and highlighted the fact that Mr Peters had made these allegations in Parliament, I and a number of other members of Parliament thought it was worthy of the Primary Production Committee instigating a significant inquiry to find our whether the allegations of corruption levelled by that member of Parliament had substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAs history now shows, the evidence presented to the select committee during the whole of 2003 and the conclusions of that select committee satisfied us that the allegations of corruption against ministry officials had no foundation. I acknowledge the comments that the Minister, the Hon David Benson-Pope, made earlier when he acknowledged the effect that that continual level of allegation against some ministry officials must have had on them and their families. It must have been absolutely demoralising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that in that select committee report we unanimously agreed that the sooner scampi was brought into the quota management system, the better\u2014and that is the reason the National Party is supporting this legislation. I might add that Mr Peters earlier said that the National Party had not maintained a consistent position on this. We supported the legislation in its first and second readings, and throughout its Committee stage on Tuesday. We support it now in its third reading. I am quite happy with that level of consistency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226073757f99cb49d89ea7df7685673199\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What about compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c9bc8e684154da9b5ac527318990772\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to move to the issue of compensation. One of the findings of the select committee was to identify a number of aggrieved fishers. The committee recommended that compensation be paid as a means of trying to rebalance some of the unfairness against them. When we called for submissions, not surprisingly we received some from a number of those people who had been identified as being aggrieved fishers. They were expressing extreme frustration with the process of negotiation that was occurring with the Government. It is not appropriate for me to comment on the process that those negotiations are going through, but I do take this opportunity of imploring the Government to complete this saga and negotiate in good faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI refer specifically to one submission that came before the select committee from Mrs Hazel Lanauze and Mr Tuck. This was a submission that identified information that had not been available to the select committee but that had clearly been made available to the State Services Commission inquiry. The evidence made available to the State Services Commission proved that Mrs Lanauze and Mr Tuck had very, very similar circumstances to most of the other aggrieved fishers we had identified. If the select committee had had the full amount of information at the time it deliberated, I am sure that they would have been listed as aggrieved fishers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3115ca96ad14322b800152ed1e4392e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why weren\u2019t they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ebee5bc4d2241878b2b9023d2fba194\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Because the information was not presented to us at the time. I take this opportunity to implore the Government to also recognise the submissions of Mrs Lanauze and Mr Tuck and any others that may come to light now that further information is available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E I thank the committee staff, whom I see in the gallery, for the extreme support they gave the select committee throughout the inquiry. I add, in response to an interjection from the Minister of Fisheries, David Benson-Pope, that his suggestion that this issue spans but one Government, the National Government of the 1990s, is not correct. This is a saga that began in the 1980s, continued through the 1990s, and has continued through the early part of the 2000s. It is interesting to see in the House today the Hon Ken Shirley, who was the Minister of Fisheries under the Labour Government in the 1980s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Minister ought to take note that the select committee was mindful of the fact that this saga spread over a number of Governments. There was the opportunity for the select committee members to attempt to play politics with the issue. The select committee members unanimously stood well above that. I say to Mr Benson-Pope that they did not want to play politics with this issue. They worked extremely hard over the period of the select committee hearing and through the deliberations to present a report that the Government has now accepted, and which has gone a long way towards getting the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 4) before the House and this issue towards finality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn the closing minutes I will comment on the issue regarding the boundary changes of the quota management areas. The committee was worried at the time about the boundary changes that were proposed to the committee, because we were unaware of what the ultimate effect may be on some of the fishers who had catch history, and on the headroom that may have then been available to some of those who had not had the ability to enter into the fishery. The information that was provided to the select committee by the officials was contradictory. The first information suggested that the change of boundaries would greatly lessen the amount of headroom available for the Crown. Information that became available after the select committee had completed its work and deliberations now suggests that there will be more headroom available. On that basis the National Party will now accept the boundary changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis has been a long and arduous saga of mismanagement and misjudgment by the ministry. Hopefully, by passing this legislation today we will see an end of these issues of unfairness and mismanagement. I sadly think that that will probably not be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002234af8a8210be4e079db5407e592506b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234af8a8210be4e079db5407e592506b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table two documents. The first is the Lanauze and Tuck submission made to the States Services Commission inquiry well over a full year after the select committee had conducted its inquiry. The second document is my submission to the committee on what was defined as the \u201CX Case\u201D, which Mr Carter promptly refused to investigate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214b253c7d1e0419c8b2021a132395d47\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EDocuments not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f21ae6cddcef42fcbbdc8e2f652a0e01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f21ae6cddcef42fcbbdc8e2f652a0e01\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the Hansard of April 2002, when Mr Peters raised the allegations of corruption against the Ministry of Fisheries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002273fbbaf7953d46dc969e1c87dc6c8ba4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273fbbaf7953d46dc969e1c87dc6c8ba4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not certain whether you ruled in my favour in respect of the leave I sought. The critical part of my documentation is that it provides all the evidence of corruption anyone would ever want to see, but the chairperson of the Primary Production Committee refused to investigate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efa20d9dceb74afe898392dd24cf2bfe\u0022\u003EAmended answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a8e3041442d4e74b69c8adff763bcc2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9 to Minister, 3 August\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0c07a0a1202417798e07f31d2032715\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0c07a0a1202417798e07f31d2032715\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct part of an answer that the Hon Phil Goff gave when answering a question in the House on my behalf on Tuesday, 3 August, relating to the number of young people who had completed the Specialist Youth Service Corps programme. The wrong answer was given with regard to numbers. The answer given that 86 young people had completed the programme related to the 2002-03 year, not the 2003-04 year. In addition, a further 146 young people completed the programme in 2003-04.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00228dfd4a84a4434103b2aa349a17b39215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dfd4a84a4434103b2aa349a17b39215\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Whip\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This issue was raised during question time today\u2014that the inaccurate answers we are consistently getting from Ministers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022901de14791b44a66a77faf50fad3b39e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member speaking to the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1620459b0c44feb192e31ca72b4e7d\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc5531b62124105a136d880469990f9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: What point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bafd231a66214e20a99b4b75497e788c\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The one raised by Mr Tamihere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef44630527de41c8aab2fab8afe06358\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That has been dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6283778f1524c428432c48055c1faac\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a new point of order. We have already had discussion today about members\u2019 concerns over Ministers giving false information, inadvertently perhaps, then coming down to the House to correct it. The expectation of members is that it is corrected at the first opportunity. My point is that, in this instance, Mr Goff was in the House during question time. He could have corrected it himself at that time, over an hour ago. But here we have the Minister coming down to the House much later, when there is not the same interest or attendance, and trying to slip it in on the quiet, as it were. I think that does need to be watched. Mr Goff should have corrected that answer during question time earlier this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00228f5012bf6ab94524a609d11b88af322e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f5012bf6ab94524a609d11b88af322e\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Goff was answering on behalf of Mr Tamihere, so the answer was Mr Tamihere\u2019s responsibility; and the Minister has just assured me that when the information came to his attention he immediately came down to the House and corrected the answer. It is quite within the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc2fd9d19b37458cae83592910547e50\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is the correct position. I do not intend for this to be pursued any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cd93dbb472e4d6d8084c401690d3b3b\u0022\u003EFisheries Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002232626d468ed14e2bb108fdc84cfd60df\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000343\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00222bf690e659004de3a8773258fa16d2e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bf690e659004de3a8773258fa16d2e4\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to this third reading debate, I can advise the House that the ACT party will be supporting this bill, which brings scampi on to the quota management system. It is with some concern that we have come to that position, and I would like to share with the House our reasoning for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe have had a very untidy situation with regard to scampi allocation and the management of it, and moving it on to quota. We fervently believe in property rights. Indeed, that is why, back in 1986, the individual transferable quota system was legislated\u2014to bring fisheries on to a quota management system whereby there was a clear property right that was transferable. We moved away from the administrative allocation model based on permitting and all the problems associated with that\u2014the politicisation, and the lobbying that goes with it. We had had decades of that, and that has been the experience of countries all around the world that base fisheries management on administrative allocations and permitting. So, in principle, the individual transferable quota system is very good, and I believe that the big picture is that it has worked very well in this country, relative to other jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe problem is that it took too long to bring scampi on to the quota management system. I well recall that when I was the Minister of Fisheries, scampi was a new fishery. It was in a discovery mode. I always envisaged that, within a very short space of time\u2014perhaps 1 or 2 years at most\u2014it would be brought on to the quota management system. In fact, a decade or more ticked by, and we have seen\u2014and, indeed, the reports on this fishery have shown\u2014the failures of the administrative allocation model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EAll the inequities and arguments around the margins are a function of this Government\u2019s trying to do this sort of thing through Government departments and administrative allocation, rather than giving a clear property right. ACT feels there have been gross injustices, and, with the effluxion of time, those injustices have been greatly exacerbated, as they always are. There is always a debate in fisheries allocation as to whether it should be done on open tender or on catch history, and, if it is done on catch history, what years should be selected as the base. There are always those at the margin, those who are disadvantaged, those who had a broken leg in the year that was retrospectively chosen to be the catch history reference point, so gross injustices occur. But I think it would be fair to say, in respect of scampi, that there was gross mismanagement\u2014though no corruption, as alleged by Mr Peters. A major investigation showed no corruption, but, rather, incompetence and mismanagement. I do not want to overstate that, because I know the enormous difficulty associated with trying, year after year, to run a permitting system. There are regional variations, inconsistent policies, and personnel changes. That is one of the inherent difficulties of doing an administrative allocation with a property right, such as the right to harvest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EHere we are finally bringing scampi into the quota management system, and ACT supports that. We argued at the Committee stage for the introduction of a mechanism that could, within the legislation, address some of the injustices inherent in the system. We regret that they really have not been provided for in an adequate way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EMr Carter made some interesting comments. He referred to the allegations of corruption made by the Rt Hon Winston Peters in this House way back in April 2002. But did he produce any evidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70a56fe248541178d24c44ceeffc271\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80fea868b3b475ca758d940145a6349\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Not a jot. He was going to bring voluminous evidence, as at the wine-box inquiry. This was to be the \u201Cfish box\u201D\u2014it was to have been bigger than the wine box. Did we see anything? No. Mr Carter rightly chaired a select committee. Parliament did the responsible thing and set up a select committee inquiry under the Hon David Carter\u2019s chairmanship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223498122cbe7d49c383729f50202013eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. A member is required to remain somewhat within the debate. I took the evidence to the select committee. I have tabled it twice today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d9475235e341cc8ea3c63f4adf75ba\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: We will continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e06a605fde14946bcfff89960a60682\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The promised fish box did not contain even a spotty. There was nothing in it, absolutely nothing. Not even one scampi or shrimp was in that great fish box of voluminous evidence that was to be brought to the select committee inquiry. The New Zealand First spokesperson on fisheries, Mr Woolerton, was that party\u2019s representative on the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8fc0bdbc0a45d687b0c7fc38c064bf\u0022\u003EEdwin Perry\u003C/span\u003E: Good man!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244e4d69439624773b137e5d1abdb931c\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he is a quiet man. I understand that he is the president of the party also. He is very quiet in that role, too. All of a sudden Mr Peters put himself on that committee because he wanted the opportunity to present that fish box of evidence. But did he do that? Not a bit of it. What did he first concentrate on? I am informed that his first efforts went into narrowing the terms of reference. He argued to get them as minimal as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224935a76bae9e48849fd74f016966777c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is not the report back from the select committee, the second reading debate, or the Committee stage of the bill; it is the third reading. The member is required to give a third reading speech, and he is inviting us to spend 10 minutes listening to his ignorance about the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bffe786c136949a7aa5d76b5ee9daef2\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising that, but Mr Shirley is dealing with the exact same issues that he did in his speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d13983fa301d44cbb569d569be45fe45\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I can certainly understand the member\u2019s discomfort on this issue. I think it is evident to all. Having narrowed the terms of reference, we still did not see the fish box of voluminous evidence. It simply was not presented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b9460b09cc144bbb639042e457b45de\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Shirley was not a member of the committee\u2014[Interruption] The member was never there. He is never at any committee. He is not even sitting down while I am making a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bae02c6627f74a959b4f908b1eb7f06d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I think these are debating matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8747225ec12479d85b22f049b90f68d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am trying to make a point of order, Mr Speaker, so I ask that you request Mr Shirley to sit down. Thank you very much. As quickly as possible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203587056a531455592701deb3f468395\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am trying to decide whether there is a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0dfa12eb7cf424a924fb7c414ba2ac9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is that no member of the select committee will allege that I narrowed down its terms of reference. It was never in my powers and it was never in my authority. The member is talking absolute drivel that has no part in a third reading debate. [Interruption].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365cb225f3ed4aa9bb4019f3e284d32a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: There is a point of order under way. There will be no cross-chat. That was not a point of order; it is a debating matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc8a8aca4ea46f89ca4b5d7b1db3e1d\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have just been corrected\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293ace6a55e19427e8c13d8ca2a041a3b\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your advice. As a member who sat on that committee, I say that it would appear that Mr Shirley may be transgressing into issues that were deliberated on and are therefore confidential to that committee. I just ask you to be mindful of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220490dfc0f8c149078fc6ecfcb980bc32\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I think even Mr Cosgrove knows that it is all out in the open now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fdcc91751a749608397c57cae5d37c0\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am grateful to Mr Heatley, who did sit on that committee and play a very active role on it, because he has just corrected me. It was not a fish box of voluminous evidence at all; it was a brown paper bag, I am told. Anyway, having made all those allegations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c45b487f007e4757ab18d12a5d00652a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Now the very objection that Mr Shirley raised in respect of a matter he said was sub judice, he has gone to the heart of, and it is the reason why I am suing him for millions. So Mr Shirley should tell the jury, and not come here and tell lies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c0782c751ac482fabc059fc40f2a767\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That also is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c917a4fff2564ca0880e22ba70d98741\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I certainly did not refer to any court case, but the member just has, and I draw your attention to Standing Order 111\u2014as I did earlier\u2014which specifically states that a member may not refer to a matter that is before a court. I drew it to your attention earlier. We have just seen an absolute breach of that Standing Order, and I certainly made no reference to any action in any court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f4b49ce3bdd462ab060085870c59673\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member may raise that, but it is for me to decide whether those issues can be raised or discussed. I am quite happy that they were discussed or raised in the way they were. I see no danger whatsoever of those words prejudicing the trial, or whatever is under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f229f04be743ada8ef050fa269dd6a\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is quite right, I did not serve on that select committee; the ACT member Gerry Eckhoff did. However, unlike the New Zealand First Party, ACT members liaise closely with each other. We caucus and tell each other what is happening at select committees. We know what the others are doing, particularly on key issues, and numerous parties have referred me to the fact Mr Peters put a lot of effort into narrowing the terms of reference of that select committee. It focused his mind. He was almost obsessed with narrowing the terms of reference. Then we learnt that he had engaged one Ross Meurant, who is a former member of Parliament and a former colleague of Mr Peters. He actually engaged him and paid for him out of the Parliamentary Service\u2019s taxpayers\u2019 money, to have him as an adviser and consultant in his office here in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca120cede8124647a15fca953c6d46f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, you\u2019re wrong there!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0f96c4cee8452e99f3945e8516fa70\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I checked on that. What we also found was that at the same time Mr Meurant was in the employ and commission of Simunovich Fisheries. Now, there is nothing wrong with that in itself, but it does start to raise various questions, does it not? We know that various other things have been alleged, such as when Mr Meurant\u2019s former partner, Yvonne Dossetter, made all sorts of allegations about brown paper bags. I am not sure whether she was referring to the voluminous evidence in the brown paper bags\u2014or perhaps something else was in the brown paper bags. Whatever was in those bags, perhaps Mr Peters is in the best position to know. Perhaps he knows what was in the brown paper bags. Was it this missing voluminous evidence that has never been brought to the House and never been before the select committee? It is an extraordinary saga, and the House wants an answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe key thing is that, finally, scampi is moving into the quota management system. It is appropriate that it does so, and the ACT party will be supporting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022 data-id=\u00224b41bf5d897a49bba697cf769eeda7a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b41bf5d897a49bba697cf769eeda7a3\u0022\u003EJANET MACKEY (Labour\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E That speech probably goes some distance to explaining why politicians have the public confidence rating they have\u2014somewhere down below that of used-car salesmen. Having talked about the importance of this valuable fishery coming into the quota management system, to then use one\u2019s speech time for petty point-scoring and a number of inaccurate recollections about a committee one never attended, seems to me to be extraordinary. Certainly, I have no recollection of some of the events Mr Shirley alluded to in his speech, and I think it is unfortunate for members to waste the House\u2019s time with personal point-scoring. It is obvious that an election is on the horizon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003ETo see scampi finally going into the quota management system is something that brings a great deal of relief to any members of this Parliament or of previous Parliaments who have engaged with the ministry or the industry over this valuable fishery. The quota system is, we all accept, an effective management tool when looking at issues of the sustainability and management of a fishery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EProbably the most important thing I would like to say at this stage is that the industry itself has an extraordinary notion about having an absolute right to own, and be paid for, every fish in the ocean. When the industry starts from the principle that it owns the fish, it will always be very, very difficult to come up with a fair and just allocation model. In consequence of that, when the quota management system was introduced to replace permitting as a preferred management model, it was understood that there would be some unfairness. As Mr Shirley pointed out, there will always be the fisher who stopped fishing just before the catch history years, the fisher who was unwell over those years, and the fisher whose wife was sick so took a year off to spend time with his children. There will always be those cases with that management model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I consider that there is, perhaps, in this scampi industry a greater number of examples of unfairness, mismanagement, and inconsistency than in any other fishery. I think that in the course of the inquiry into this scampi fishery, when allegations were flying quicker than fishhooks about every player in the industry, it became very clear that a number of people had suffered irreparable damage as a result of the failure of successive ministries to manage the fishery well and fairly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003ESome comment has been made today about the decision resulting from the inquiry to allocate some reparation to those fishers who we considered had suffered irreparable damage. I notice that Mr Peters is claiming full credit for that, and is certainly advising the industry that he was solely responsible for it. That is one of the things about Parliament, is it not? There is never much room on the moral high ground; it is always very overcrowded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E I commend all members of the Primary Production Committee. They worked quite hard to come up with some way of identifying those fishers who, at the hands of the ministry, had been deprived of what they should and would have had. We could not give them quota; we would have had to change the Act in order to do that. But in the case of Mr Goodship and a handful of others, we were able to ensure that the years they spent fishing\u2014or going into the ministry and filing permits that never got processed\u2014were not entirely wasted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EWith regard to the fishing company that we suggested had been treated unfairly but that had received no financial reparation, I say that the reason for that, on the part of some members of the committee, was not the ownership or management structure of the company but the fact that it is a very big and successful fishing company and shows absolutely no scars from its engagement in the scampi industry. It has gone on to become a very wealthy and successful company, whereas others of the smaller fishers never had the opportunity to get on their boats and go out to catch scampi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EIt is with great pleasure, therefore, that we see scampi going into the quota management system. The fishery industry is a litigious one. There will always be allegations of unfairness flying around when something worth millions of dollars is given away for nothing. People will always perceive that as being unfair. But as a New Zealander who believes that the fish in the ocean belong to New Zealanders and not to people who have been out there fishing, I say that I have some confidence, as a result of the passing of this legislation, that we will see greater fairness in the industry, and that we can entrust to the ministry some responsibility for the sustainability of what is a very valuable resource to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022400b59b1ae194e8a8dce452ab27c6fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022400b59b1ae194e8a8dce452ab27c6fe3\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I came to the House to speak on the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 4), but I am a little shell-shocked. In fact, I was not in the country when most of the discussions and controversy around the scampi fishery took place, so I find myself at somewhat of a disadvantage. I might have to confine myself to speaking about the bill\u2014which will be quite a novel experience for members, given the contributions I have heard today. The exception, of course, is Janet Mackey. I thought she gave good counsel to the House, which was that we should concentrate on the matters in hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI also have to declare that I was not a member of the Primary Production Committee, so I find myself very much at a disadvantage. But as my whips indicated that I should request the call, I will attempt to do my best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI note that the bill legislates scampi\u2014which, as I have now learnt, is Norwegian lobster\u2014into the quota management system by 1 October 2004. National supports this legislation. Notwithstanding some of the allegations that have been made, we have supported the bill right from the outset\u2014through the first and the second readings, and through the Committee stage, in which I did take an active part. I wonder now, having listened to the discussion that I see has raged for over 2 years, why we have had to rush this bill through the House at the last moment. Barely 9 sitting days ago the House was in urgency, yet it was not included in the urgency motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ENow, there is a rush to have the bill enacted by 1 October. In my judgment, that will cause some procedural problems for those fishers who, when they receive their quota, do not agree with it and want to appeal. They will have only 20 working days to do that, and given that this is 5 August and the legislation has not yet received its royal assent, it appears that the process is procedurally unsound and unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThrough the Committee stage I raised those questions with the Minister, and he seemed unwilling or unable to give me any answers. I suspect that it was probably that he was unable, given his nervous twitch and his floundering around when looking for advice from his officials\u2014who, as is their wont, left him to squiggle like a scampi out of water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThroughout the protracted negotiation and controversy that has surrounded this legislation, there has been immense pressure applied to members of the select committee. If it were not for the outstanding chairmanship of David Carter, who was ably supported by Phil Heatley, I do not think that we would have divined a path through the legislation as well as we have. To be fair, I am also told that significant contributions were made by Janet Mackey and Clayton Cosgrove, but I did not hear any positive affirmations on behalf of New Zealand First members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn fact, given the current circumstances, I reflect that it was strange that through the whole Committee stage New Zealand First members took not two, not one, but no calls, whatsoever. It appears to me that someone must have thought there would be cameras in the House today, though, because they have come to the House and preened and talked. They have made a lot of noise, but there has not appeared to be a lot of substance. I observed, Mr Assistant Speaker Simich, that during some of those discussions you were trying to draw the members\u2019 attention back to the narrow subject of the debate. I think you did an outstanding job on that basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn reflecting on my favourite subject of this fisheries Minister, I have to say that the work of the select committee was made much harder, pretty much, by his inexperience\u2014and, to be fair, by his limited commercial ability. Here is a man, who through no fault of his own\u2014he is new to the job and inexperienced\u2014is driven by his officials, who are only too willing to give him advice in order for him to try to pick up some lost ground. But again, the committee owes a great debt to Mr Carter\u2019s experience, because he saw to their divining a path through what was otherwise a very tricky process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EOne of the sticking points for National related to the boundary changes to quota management areas 3 and 4. We wanted to know what was driving that decision. I hate to harp on it again, but\u2014I am sorry\u2014I think it is probably the inexperience of the Minister that caused some of those problems. He really did not know why those changes were being suggested, and steadfastly refused to take a call in the Committee stage to answer my questions. I have to say that at one stage he did call out that the reason was that his officials had told him so, and that we should get off his back and accept that what he was being told was legitimate. But he was asking us to accept advice from a ministry that had been exposed by a State Services Commission inquiry as inadequate, inconsistent, ad hoc, and unprofessional. The best thing he could do by way of answer to my questions was to mumble under his breath that we should just listen to his officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ENow, I take no great pleasure at all in exposing this Minister\u2019s limitations, and to prove that I am not gilding the lily with regard to the Minister and his ministry\u2019s performance, I tell members that none other than a former Prime Minister of this country, Sir Geoffrey Palmer, wrote to me, expressing his concern about the ministry. Among other things\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022162f3bb161504711985f5ce8685ffb6d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I got a letter, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217c857f238064ac6916cb91809e69292\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: That is amazing. He must have sorted out a couple of people who he thought would be prepared to stand up and tell the truth, because amongst other things, he said this to me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab2b780cf8184184a28530281367c990\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He sent that letter to everyone because he gets paid per letter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223626d7551e814296bb1e550244d37c45\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: I do not believe that for a moment. I am sure he just sorted me out\u2014and Mr Shirley. Now, this is what he had to say: \u201CUnder the bill, scampi fishers will be allocated quota on the basis of how much they caught in the \u2018quota-earning years\u2019 beginning 1 October 1990 and ending 30 September 1992.\u201D There is no great difficulty with that. \u201CSince the bill was introduced, the report of the reviewers, appointed by the State Services Commission on an inquiry into the fisheries management of the scampi fishery, has been made available. The state of public affairs reported by the inquiry should be of grave concern to every MP. The State Services Commission report confirms there was mismanagement by the ministry, and there was unfair and unreasonable treatment of the fishers.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI do not want to read out all this letter, but the other pertinent point is this: \u201CThe injustice that was the subject of the report to the State Services Commissioner has also been dealt with by the courts, which found that the actions of the ministry have been unlawful, but so far there has been no disposition to re-examine the basis upon which the quota will be allocated. When it comes to injustice\u201D\u2014and this is the important part\u2014\u201Cit is the putting right that counts.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E So we are getting conflicting opinions. For example, the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research has been saying there is no justifiable reason why we should change the quota management areas off the Southland coast, or words to that effect. It stated: \u201CMoving boundaries will in fact be arbitrary.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI will allow that new information can come to hand. Thankfully, through the outstanding efforts of Phil Heatley, new information was enticed out of that tight-lipped Minister. The tragedy of it all is that had he made that advice available earlier, we would not have had to sit through a protracted select committee stage. Again, I suppose it goes back to inexperience or a lack of capability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that had it not been for that tight-lipped Minister, the select committee process would not have been protracted. We did not take any pleasure in having to drag the process out until we got the answers we all required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002243b6f9b2b2bb4b4a80d47e6fed71ac31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243b6f9b2b2bb4b4a80d47e6fed71ac31\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I suspect, after that less than lucid contribution, that all members of the Primary Production Committee\u2014including the chair, Mr David Carter, I suspect, but I will not put him on the spot to make a public admission\u2014are thankful that Mr Connell never set foot in that committee at all. I thank the Lord above that he was not a member of that committee. If he had been he would know that we are not rushing this bill through the House with undue haste. If Mr Connell could read past the large title and the large print of the bill he would know that the reason the bill has to be enacted by 1 October is simply that it is being gazetted for scampi to go into the quota management system by that due date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo instead of these sorts of crocodile tears and puffery to try to pad out a speech, as Mr Connell does, I suggest that he talk to Mr Carter. I agree with one thing that Mr Connell said: I believe that Mr Carter did make a very sound contribution as chair. I suggest that Mr Connell takes a lesson from a senior colleague and has a wee chat before he stands up and makes a complete fool\u2014I could use another word, but that word will do\u2014of himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBefore I get into the bill I will also say to Mr Shirley that one thing about this committee\u2014and I said it last week\u2014is that it is a non-partisan committee where there is a high degree of cooperation between Opposition and Government parties, and between cross-bench parties. There was a high degree of cooperation over this whole report, to the point that we were unanimous as a committee in every way except one small way, which I will come to in a moment. I acknowledge the contribution made by Mr Eckhoff. However, unlike Mr Eckhoff, Mr Shirley\u2014and one can always rely on the ACT party to do this\u2014took an opportunity to roll around in the muck like some sort of animal, and to play politics with this issue. I will give him the same advice that I gave Mr Connell\u2014and perhaps he may want to talk to his colleague Mr Eckhoff\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022186fbb048bee465c9872105a0d60c988\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is very unlike me to time this member\u2019s speeches, although they do drag on, but he is 3 minutes on and has not mentioned the bill yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b476b8e3fb54a6890e3efaed956e0e1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I shall judge relevance. I thank the member for raising that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225322ff25d6024b2a8a78d16d2a237aa3\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I think I have mentioned the bill. I tell Mr Shirley again that this very non-partisan and very important inquiry should not be trivialised. The truth about the inquiry, as it pertained to the bill, was that there were a number of sideshows. Again, I congratulate members on both sides who managed to navigate through those sideshows and through the muck to get on with the business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI endorse the bill bringing scampi into the quota management system. If we look at how it links with the scampi report, there are some very heavy-duty correlations. As has been mentioned, these events happened over 10 years ago, and I endorse Mr Carter\u2019s point when he said that we should not play politics with this issue, because it happened over a number of administrations. The question of the lack of, or level of, ministerial oversight by whoever was the Minister at the time in all those administrations does arise in respect of how the issues of mismanagement and incompetence were dealt with. The then Ministers, officials, and others were questioned over 10 years ago and they were pretty balanced in their view. However, the thing the committee did struggle with was that if the then Ministers, sitting in the chair over 10 years ago, received representations and letters, one would have thought that they would perhaps have taken a greater interest in the issue. I recall questioning the officials on that. At one point\u2014and I am sure that the transcript will verify this\u2014they said they had not gone to the then Ministers often, because it was all a bit technical. Historically, I do not think that was acceptable from the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. Any politician who keeps getting representations on issues knows that there is a problem. When politicians are told the problem is fixed and they still keep getting representations, then obviously the fixtures have not stuck. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI also say, just to correct the record, that it is true that the committee was unanimous\u2014and I acknowledge New Zealand First\u2014on its recommendation to compensate. Where the committee was not unanimous, and where New Zealand First did support the Government, was in respect of naming a dollar amount for compensation. I acknowledge the National Party\u2019s point that we were split on that. I think it was the only issue we were split on. However, I tell Mr Heatley, who made a pretty silly comment about members throwing their fingers in the air and picking dollar figures, that I acknowledge that there was some analysis done to arrive at the figures. The objective was to try to provide some safeguards and give submitters some level of comfort as they negotiated with the ministry officials. Some submitters had been there a decade ago as this happened, and some submitters acknowledged that they did not have confidence in some officials. I think the committee supported the naming of dollar amounts to try to lift that level of comfort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is critical that we get scampi into the quota management system through this bill. Had the fishery continued on in the sort of haphazard way it was operating, where fishers were just catching ad infinitum, we had scientific evidence that suggested that the fishery would be under threat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThere are some big issues that will be dealt with through this bill. As has been mentioned by members, the biggest issue is that of unfairness. I told Mr Ewen-Street last week that I did not accept his view that somehow this Parliament or the committee has continued to perpetrate, or somehow compound, an injustice. The committee deals with\u2014as Parliament does, being the highest court in the land\u2014evidence placed before it. That evidence did not substantiate allegations of corruption, either with the ministry or players within the industry. It did not substantiate that. As I said in my previous speech, I am sure that it would be accurate to say that members had various gut feelings about particular issues. Unfortunately, even though we may agree with gut feelings, decisions cannot be made based on gut feelings; they have to be made based on the evidence that is put forward to the committee. So no allegations were substantiated in respect of corruption. But it is an absolute truth that we did establish gross mismanagement, gross incompetence, and obstruction on the part of the then Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries as the scampi fishery was administered. What flowed from that was that certain fishers were advantaged and certain fishers were not. I hope that what comes out of this report is some correction to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI also say that because those unfairnesses and that mismanagement were identified, it led to erosion in the confidence the industry showed in the then ministry. If anything is to come out of this inquiry, I hope that not only those fishers who were impacted on get some help, but, secondly, that we can somehow build back the integrity and the confidence in the ministry. I quote from the report on the inquiry into the administration and management of the scampi fishery, which states: \u201CWe\u201D\u2014that is, the select committee\u2014\u201Cconsider that there are real lessons in all this for any government agency that is responsible for the management of a valuable public resource. If a government agency acts in a way that is found to be unfair or unlawful and does not redress the situation transparently and substantively, then the honesty and integrity of the organisation is called into question.\u201D I hope that what flows from that report, and, of course, the bill, is that we can now right some wrongs and some unfairnesses, and also start to build back the integrity and credibility of that ministry. After all, the Government did agree to this inquiry, and rightly so. The then Minister, Pete Hodgson, and the committee members did endorse the inquiry. The Opposition parties and Government worked together in the hope that we could clean up a decade of mess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think that this matter goes beyond politics. As I recall some of the submitters to the committee and some of the officials, to be tactful, it saddens me to say that they were less than helpful at times. I think other committee members would share that view. But I now say, as I did in my previous speech, that it is time to build back. I acknowledge Mr Carter\u2019s point about litigation in respect of players. I say to the industry that now is the time to get out of the court and back in the boat, to start to fish, and to continue to invest in and develop the fishery industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ETo conclude, I say to the ministry that now is the time to ensure it builds back the credibility that has been lost through some years of mismanagement. I endorse the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad1b5a36e5f64207a449a7d53ebda7c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad1b5a36e5f64207a449a7d53ebda7c3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate on the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 4) has at times been quite lively and comment has been made that a number of members have not spoken in a way that is relevant to the issue before the House. We know that debate should be relevant to the motion before the House, and the motion is that this bill be read a third time. In my view all speeches made by members have in some way been relevant to the motion before the House, albeit in some cases the connection was rather tenuous. I thank all members for their contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fd2cc2c7dd864a6cad9bdcfc703b4eb3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 4) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; United Future 8; Progressive 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221aa349b156c541bdbd58b1ea31d0228e\u0022\u003EInjury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc36de01e6e24e738a2deb1f00e1c7b6\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6ea4a5221884437b67e8def0df30602\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6ea4a5221884437b67e8def0df30602\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for ACC: I move, That the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a first time. At the moment I intend to move that the Health Committee consider the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EOver 3 years ago the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Bill was introduced. This became the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Act, which provides a fair and sustainable scheme for minimising both the overall incidence and the impact of injury in the community. One of the key goals of the Act is make the scheme more responsive to the needs of claimants. This amendment bill continues to progress this goal, principally through changes to the existing medical misadventure provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EFollowing the introduction of the Act, a major review of the medical misadventure provisions was undertaken. A new category of treatment injury was proposed to replace the existing medical misadventure provisions. The primary purpose of this bill is to implement those changes. The new category will remove the requirement to find fault, as is the case with some claimants for medical misadventure, or to prove that a medical injury is rare and severe, as is the case with other claims for medical misadventure, before a patient is entitled to accident compensation cover. This approach is more consistent with the no-fault nature of the scheme. As a result of these changes, more people will be eligible for cover, and outcomes for claimants will be considerably improved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes to the Accident Compensation Corporation\u2019s reporting provisions for treatment of injury. The aim of these changes is to build a partnership between the Accident Compensation Corporation and the health sector that moves away from the punitive system of finding fault in reporting medical misadventure cover decisions and encourages learning initiatives when things go wrong, while still protecting public safety. This partnership will gain the cooperation of the health sector to participate in the claims process, which will aid fairer outcomes for claimants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003ECurrently, the Accident Compensation Corporation has a legislative requirement to report medical error to the relevant professional body and to the Health and Disability Commissioner. This will no longer be required under the new provisions. Instead, the Accident Compensation Corporation will report information to the relevant professional body if it considers that there could be a risk of harm to the public. This is consistent with recent changes introduced by the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act 2003. The Accident Compensation Corporation will also be required to inform claimants of the role of the Health and Disability Commissioner in investigating complaints and the standard of care provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EIt should be noted that the new definition of \u201Ctreatment injury\u201D will not cover all medical injuries. Injuries that are an anticipated or necessary part or consequence of treatment, such as surgical incision, and those that result from a patient\u2019s underlying health condition, will not be covered; nor will there be cover just because the desired results were not achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThese changes are the result of an excellent consultation review in which the Government worked in partnership with key stakeholders and with the public. I would like to take this opportunity to thank my colleague Lianne Dalziel for her work in setting up this review. The review was a three-stage process, beginning with the discussion of the issues with stakeholder groups, then public consultation on the issues and possible solutions, followed by further consultation with stakeholder groups as a result of the feedback from submissions on the options for change. As a result, there is wide consensus held on the direction that the new provisions provide from almost all those involved in the process, including health practitioners, medico-legal experts, claimants, and others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes a number of secondary issues, operational improvements, and technical changes aimed at making the scheme more responsive to the needs of claimants. For example, the bill provides the Accident Compensation Corporation with the discretion to provide certain rehabilitation entitlements, such as for the payment of attendant care for a claimant who is overseas and requires care beyond the 28 days provided in the legislation. The bill also provides fairer methods for calculating weekly compensation for people who move into self-employment, by factoring into the calculation income from other work undertaken during the income year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill builds on the framework provided by the existing legislation, providing a fair, comprehensive, and equitable accident compensation scheme that is responsive to the needs of claimants, while maintaining a responsible approach to fiscal and levy costs. The Government is committed to providing strong public services. Creating a fair and simple accident compensation scheme that reduces the incidence and impact of personal injury is our overall goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00222ab45ac42c314c7687109884325e09e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ab45ac42c314c7687109884325e09e4\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E National will support this bill, but with considerable reservations, both regarding the substance of the bill, which is basically about medical misadventure, and regarding some of the miscellaneous additions the Minister has mustered into this amendment. National does remain deeply and legitimately concerned that under this Labour Government, the Accident Compensation Corporation is a State-run monopoly that provides little choice. By its very nature, where there is no individual risk rating, it tends to conceal real incentives and to conceal real problems. I have heard from many, many upset constituents over the last few years that they do not have the right to sue in New Zealand, apart, of course, from in the area of gross negligence, where clearly it is right and proper for that right to be retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENational has supported a no-fault system in New Zealand since 1974, largely because it recognises the huge practical problems that occurred when claims relating to accidents went through the courts. Back in 1974 it was recognised that delays would often take years, and then at the end of that time only a small proportion of claimants would, in actual fact, be compensated. Even in modern-day Boston, it is said that only 5 percent of accident claimants, at the end of a long trail, are indeed compensated. The average time taken is usually 5 years, and the compensation itself is hugely distorted by very high figures, which cause the insurance premiums to be very high in the US. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut I am concerned that the Government\u2019s review, which was carried out over 2 years, although wide, did not consult the private sector. It certainly did not consult the New Zealand Insurance Council or individual insurers such as QBE. There was, as I say, wide agreement about this review, which identified the following. Firstly, the medical mishap criteria are arbitrary, often bearing little relation to the circumstances of the patient, and resulting in claimants unfairly missing out on cover. Secondly, the medical error criteria require it to be established that an individual practitioner or organisation is at fault, which is clearly at odds with a no-fault system. There are some obvious anomalies with regard to that. For instance, in my practice, if I had snipped a ureter by mistake while carrying out a hysterectomy, and if it was regarded as a rare and severe event with an incidence of less than 1 percent, then the patient would be compensated. If, however, an individual had an unfortunate experience that occurred more than 1 percent of times, then that person would not be compensated, because it would not be deemed to be rare and severe. Clearly that is quite an anomaly, and it should be sorted out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that the review of the medical misadventure provisions noted that the accident compensation cover decision and the requirement that the Accident Compensation Corporation must report individual practitioners involved in accepted medical error claims, as well as patterns of medical mishap claims, to the relevant registration authority results in health practitioners\u2019 reluctance to participate in the claim process. That is of huge practical importance, as well. The long delays with the process, and the stress, both on the claimant and on the practitioner, is enormous and can sometimes be very negative. However, it is hugely important, if this process is to be put in place, that individual practitioners do take responsibility for their shortcomings, and that a process is in place to allow a free and frank discussion of adverse incidents\u2014of how they can be prevented in the future, and of how processes at all levels could be improved. It is absolutely necessary, both on behalf of the public and on behalf of health practitioners, to participate in continuous quality assurance programmes, to aspire to best-practice guidelines, and for provider organisations to develop accreditation programmes. Undoubtedly the reputation of professional providers depends on them fully participating in such programmes. Not to do so will earn public mistrust and disrespect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI also note that the reporting requirements similarly move the Accident Compensation Corporation from having a fault-finding role to one that captures information for the injury prevention purpose of the accident compensation scheme, and therefore aligns the role of the corporation with its orientation and expertise. If there is a determination by the Accident Compensation Corporation that there is a risk of harm to the public, the corporation will be required to report that risk and other relevant information to the person or authority with responsibility for safety in that area. That is a significant change. Again, I say it is absolutely vital that health professionals move proactively to demonstrate that their organisations take the provision of the highest-quality services extremely seriously, and that they act quickly to rectify faults when they are identified. I note that \u201Ctreatment injury\u201D itself will not cover injuries that are anticipated as part of or as a consequence of treatment, such as a surgical incision. But there will be a big grey area there. Any practising surgeon will know that all sorts of things can happen to surgical incisions, and there will be questions as to whether they were a treatment incident or whether they were a part of the normal process. There will be disputes, and that is to be predicted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is of concern that the Government has provided no impact statement in this bill. I learnt in the select committee that this legislation is likely to cost about $10 million to the public, in terms of increased levies. I think it is quite appalling that the Labour Government has failed to bring in an estimation of that cost. I believe that the one it did provide to me is likely to be unreliable. It is hugely important that the Government faces up to the reality of what this significant bill will cost the Accident Compensation Corporation. Right now, the medical misadventure account covers injuries from any unexpected outcomes of medical or surgical procedures that were properly carried out, and it is funded from the earners and the non-earners accounts. The levy costs in total about $106 million, and the claims liability is about $383 million. It is important that those figures are kept in mind. I note the way that the sponsor of this bill, the Hon Ruth Dyson, has absolutely omitted to include the financial aspects of this bill, which are all-important. The accident compensation scheme is hugely costly to New Zealand\u2014in the order of over $2 billion. Yet the Minister says that these changes will cost only $10 million. The cost of accident compensation is extremely important. It is also important to realise that 70 percent of treatments are carried out by public providers, and therefore increased levies will fall on the providers in district health boards as well as on those in private practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is also to be remembered that it is the patient who has the accident, and in a private individual situation, patients would be individually risk rated. But at the same time, the doctor could be sued through the malpractice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e527ff9b40e24fe6bb1bcd23dc110abf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e527ff9b40e24fe6bb1bcd23dc110abf\u0022\u003ELIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Nothing could make me happier than to take a very brief call in this debate, to welcome the introduction of the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 3). As a former Minister for ACC I was able to begin a process that has now ended up with the bill that is in front of the House today. The process I began was to establish a working-party to look at the issue of medical misadventure. For the brief period that I was the Minister, I was deeply concerned to try to address an anomaly that had bothered me for a number of years. Bill Birch, of course, was a significant distraction to the issues of accident compensation in the 1990s, when he set about destroying our accident compensation scheme with the 1991 amendments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ff3189b3cd4c4186201a0281a77260\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: On top of many other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287a0d1126f444610928e2195644886ee\u0022\u003ELIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: On top of many other things, as my colleague points out. But also, in addition, the previous Government decided to privatise big chunks of accident compensation. So we have had the opportunity to restore accident compensation to the public system that it was before the 1990s, and to ensure that New Zealanders would benefit, as they have, from having a public accident compensation scheme. The public scheme has protected ordinary New Zealanders from the dramatically increased cost of insurance premiums all around the world, since the events of September 11. This country has been protected from those increases because this Government has made sure that we have a public scheme that works in the interests of all people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis legislation will get rid of an anomaly that has bothered me and other members of the Labour Party for a long time. We will have a scheme in place to ensure that when an injury results from medical treatment, people are treated in the same way as they would be treated if their particular injury had occurred in any other circumstance. If the injury occurs in a hospital setting, at the general practitioner\u2019s rooms, or when people are being treated by a registered health professional, they have to prove that either the health professional was at fault\u2014and this is in a no-fault scheme\u2014or the condition or the injury that arose as a result of the medical treatment was both rare and severe. It had to meet one of the two tests\u2014either that there was fault, or that the result was rare or severe. The difficulty with that particular set of tests is that a number of people who suffered their injuries as a result of medical treatment have had to go through a very in-depth process of either showing that their medical professional was at fault, or showing that what happened to them was both rare and severe. Even if something dreadful had happened, if it was relatively common it was something that they had to carry as their own risk. Yet somebody who gets behind the wheel of a car without putting on the seatbelt is entitled to have all of his or her treatment costs met, even though that person knows the risk is that the extent of any injury will be far greater than if he or she had put on the seatbelt. Why was medical misadventure singled out in that way? I still have not heard a good enough reason for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to see this bill in the House today. I congratulate the Hon Ruth Dyson. I think she has done a tremendous job, and continues to do a tremendous job as the best Minister for ACC that this country has ever had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c00f8f73aee04b8eaa887b9c543b9151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c00f8f73aee04b8eaa887b9c543b9151\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am impressed by the former Minister\u2019s speech. I thought she gave a very good speech and covered the facts very well. But what she did not tell the House was that 5 years ago, when the Labour Party first came to power and wanted to renationalise accident compensation, New Zealand First made representations to that member, and the current Minister, at the same time, in the same room, and told them to do something about medical misadventure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aab77d1b0dae41b18d633b915571b1e7\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t the Minister then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e9f6acb5fc4f0ebb71c7c2dcc67f08\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I sat with the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022539e0047ce9e4fdca6fd47c3198ec893\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t the Minister 5 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e167676b72244fd58f56760c411e7b42\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member sat in the same room, alongside Ruth Dyson. We had a cup of coffee and I told the member how concerned New Zealand First was about not introducing medical misadventure. I tried to introduce it into the accident compensation legislation, and everybody voted it down\u2014everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e7ceb37a76e4729b79b44116099af73\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a37e403b6e44ac6abebff46bc4e7821\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member was not the Minister, but she was in the loop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt is an absolute disgrace that it has taken 5 years for this bill to get to the House. I personally am delighted with this bill, and my colleagues are very, very pleased indeed. I am delighted because I have been the New Zealand First spokesperson on accident compensation for quite some time, and I have had to listen to case after case of accident victims who have suffered at the hands of doctors, hospitals, or whatever\u2014and it makes sad listening. I am certain that Sue Bradford will agree with me that it is not pleasant to hear the stories of people who go into hospital to get something fixed and come out a damn sight worse than when they went in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI am pleased to see this legislation come to pass, but the honourable former Minister, who had that portfolio for only 6 months, said that she instigated this review 2 years ago\u2014a review that told us exactly what we knew. It told us no more than we already knew 5 years ago. Nevertheless, we are pleased that the bill has finally got to the House, although we are not overly convinced it will do everything it should. We will be fighting at the select committee to make it more all-embracing. For example, will it cover mental illness? Does anybody know? Will a person who is wrongly diagnosed with a mental illness be covered by this? Will the Accident Compensation Corporation front up to any sort of damage that results from or is caused by people with mental illness? It will not. Do members over there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d258c7b9813b405d907c15ab28e375d5\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s about medical injury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f66450b8e334f5ea9241b2f35a29ea2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is about doctors making mistakes, and if a doctor makes a mistake with a mentally ill person, will this measure cover it? It will not. Should it cover it? We think it should. Given that the Government has sat on its hands for 5 long years before starting to do anything, will the legislation be in any way retrospective? I think that the answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228668510434f24550861c8b9f45745968\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: This is about medical injury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222283d2a7e0e491494a0c242701838cd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the honourable member who is shouting out across the House in a most undignified manner that that is not good enough. There have been many cases in the last few years of medical misadventure. For those who do not quite understand it, I point out that medical misadventure embraces medical mishap and medical error.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220438e447f3a546f0a5ba185049815c6a\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It tidies those up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299feb6f93c9e4cd69776c36ceef4b4c8\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It tidies them up, but will it in any way be retrospective?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ed3fd20e38344d6abd6be6f8fe59407\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: No, never.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022174ecdb849a5492b9e0b887d4dabc3c7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, it will start on the day it starts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022793f9f12d9da49d7a11c19e0d9b11611\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: A line in the sand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221063ed6d74bb4da9927e484c46bf0a81\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the member had more heart, more compassion. New Zealand First is a party of compassionate people. We feel for accident victims. We certainly listen to them. Can we fix this? Yes, we can, and we will endeavour to get a degree of fair retrospectivity into this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b665698c08943a99d1c247aa6cbddd9\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is your party going to use that again in the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aca41fd50bd49bfb8d36a97cbe09976\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I think we might. Clearly, it has impressed members here, so I think we might. But by the time the next election arrives, we might well have fixed everything. One never knows. This measure is a reasonable attempt to fix some concerns about accident compensation. We want to recognise that and give the Government some acknowledgment. The fact that it has taken 5 years for the bill to get here is by the by, certainly in its books. This bill goes on to address a number of other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201333a1a3761435fb16372d05d90cc8d\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: That member needs chelation therapy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278021f6ff5454e03b83884bf8c7046c0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am glad the honourable member raised it! I tell her that I have spoken to a number of people who have had chelation therapy, and not one of them speaks ill of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fee834082a4b45c0b1a6fc13e044c3ce\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Will the ACC pay for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220060c5ae330443ada4d4f143545394ba\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question. I want the Minister of Health\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022947f40b608d7459095b8996585946468\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: We could do a whip around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de651e5a3dab47ec9f53ed03f26e21e0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The members over there think it is a joke. I tell them that when people have chelation therapy for potential heart problems, or whatever, they do not think it is funny, at all. I suggest to those members that there might be more in the system\u2014more in chelation therapy\u2014than that member over there gives it credit for. I would like the Minister of Health, who is a forward-thinking Minister, to instigate some sort of trial of that system. That is all I am asking for, and I will attempt from time to time in this House to get her to recognise it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EFor a few minutes I will tell the House about a lady, a Mrs Karen Griffen, from Whakat\u0101ne, who had what one might call a very innocuous accident\u2014she ate a pineapple lump. I can see that Judy Turner knows of the case. She came to see me some time ago. Eating a pineapple lump nearly killed her. The doctors did not know how to treat her, and neither did the hospitals. They virtually said she was a head case and that she should go home. She felt she was nearly dying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E I will read some extracts from this article. Karen Griffen claims that doctors at the hospital refused to treat her when she was critically ill, dismissed her illness as psychological, and sent her home to die. Finally, a local general practitioner fixed it, after all the anguish this lady went through. But will this bill fix this situation in the future for someone else? Mrs Griffen is OK now, I am pleased to tell the House, as far as I am aware. But will this bill fix that? No, it will not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223589227c2cd348e39a43f158cbbf802d\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It was ingestion of a pineapple lump. It was not an injury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af33b894475463c9bc7a5d33ea73891\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member that if someone is nearly dying they do not care whether it is because of the ingestion of a pineapple lump or something else. The doctors did not diagnose it correctly and she suffered hugely as a result. I would tell that member, Steve Chadwick, to show a little bit more compassion. We should look at the width of this type of injury, if one likes, and see whether we can cover more people, rather than just confining it to a few. This is a good opportunity for the House to look at it in a positive manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8a4c1bae8a4e1e9304a5142719153b\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Do an amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226842c3b06b714b3d8e91734203f2a7b0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I will put forward an amendment if necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae94031c670b409fa2b01fdbc32f1523\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: A pineapple amendment!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226785e89a1ac24023a0ae2e249396e60b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That man makes a joke of it. The young fellow has a lifetime in front of him and he makes a joke of a lady who nearly died as a result of a fairly innocent type of thing. I think the member should hang his head in shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf I have one disappointment it is that this bill will go to the Health Committee. That is a disappointment because I will not be on that select committee and I have taken an interest in accident compensation for quite some time. But I have a very able colleague who will keep the Government members in line. She is a very compassionate lady, and she will ensure that this bill is modified to suit New Zealanders. Another part of me is actually pleased that the bill is going to the Health Committee because I know that that committee can handle it promptly and we can get this bill passed promptly, whereas the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014where the bill should probably go\u2014is bogged down with other work. So part of me is pleased about where this bill is going and part of me is disappointed. New Zealand First is pleased to see this bill come to the House and we will certainly support its referral to select committee. I seek leave to table the article.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee65ae80d5c424299d821def05a51cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee65ae80d5c424299d821def05a51cb\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The key component of this bill constitutes a significant and positive reform in the way the Accident Compensation Corporation deals with medical misadventure cases, and on that basis the Green Party will be voting for it to go to the select committee today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFor many years there have been huge problems for anyone trying to make a compensation claim under the medical misadventure provisions, as thousands of injured people can testify. As well as all those people whose claims are turned down, I believe there are even more who have never filed a claim because of the evident hopelessness of getting anywhere, given the stringent conditions that are applied. The present system has also created tensions and difficulties within the practice of medicine, with doctors seeing every claim as a potential threat to their personal and professional future. This has not been useful at a time when the health system is finally beginning to learn that it would be better if the sector could learn honestly from mistakes and slippages made, rather than putting the emphasis on allocating blame and protecting individuals from legal action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EBefore I go any further with medical misadventure and other aspects of this bill, however, I would like to deal with the potentially controversial subject of acupuncturists. One important aspect of the legislation in front of us this afternoon is that it amends the definition of acupuncturist in terms of who can treat people under accident compensation legislation. The proposal is to extend the definition of acupuncturists to include members of the New Zealand Acupuncture Standards Authority who have a health professional qualification and either a 1-year full-time postgraduate qualification in acupuncture or a level 7 diploma in acupuncture. At present, only members of the New Zealand Register of Acupuncturists are eligible for accident compensation treatment payments. I understand that the New Zealand Register of Acupuncturists is bringing legal action against the Government because of the Government\u2019s move to expand the pool of professional acupuncturists eligible for accident compensation payments. The Green Party intends to carry out its own further investigations into this issue, and our ongoing support for the bill is dependent on working towards a reasonable outcome in this area, which we hope will be satisfactory for all concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI turn now to the medical misadventure provisions of this legislation. The Green Party is, as I said earlier, delighted to see that at last there will be an end to the anomaly in which medical misadventure was the exception to the otherwise no-fault nature of the accident compensation scheme. Currently, cover for medical misadventure is restricted by section 32 of the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Act 2001 to what is defined as medical mishap, medical error, and the transmission of infection caused originally by medical misadventure. At the moment, medical mishap is seen as an adverse consequence of treatment that is severe and rare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe believe that this has given rise to situations of serious injustice over and over again. There are many examples, but I will give just two. In district court cases in 1998 and 2000 the court upheld decisions to decline cover for medical mishap in cases of the severe back condition arachnoiditis caused by a myelogram dye test. The Accident Compensation Corporation had relied on the incidence of arachnoiditis not being a sufficiently rare outcome of the myelogram procedure to meet the test for medical mishap, to deny claimants access to income compensation. As a result of the Accident Compensation Corporation declining cover, backed up by the court, people whose lives had been ruined by a genuine medical mishap were denied accident compensation support, and of course, on top of that, were eligible only for sickness or invalids benefits if they did not have a partner earning during the relevant period. The use of the severity and rarity criteria has meant that arbitrary and unjust decisions have been applied to many claims. The sooner we can bring an end to this parlous situation, the better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe second subset of medical misadventure is medical error. This is currently defined, roughly speaking, as personal injury resulting from the failure of a registered health professional or organisation to provide treatment at a standard of care and skill that could be reasonably expected in the circumstances. There are significant difficulties with this from the point of view of injured people. The principles behind this are totally at odds with the no-fault basis for the rest of the accident compensation scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E Health professionals are often reluctant to cooperate in determining claims, because of the possibly significant and deleterious consequences to them personally. This concept of medical error is markedly out of step with a sensible and structural approach to solving problems within the health system. On top of that, those types of claims can often involve massive delays of up to 9 months or more for the unfortunate individuals who are trying to get help at a time when they may well be suffering significant pain and incapacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe proposal in this bill to replace cover for personal injury caused by medical misadventure, by personal injury caused by treatment, from 1 February next year, will help to address most of those anomalies, and the Green Party welcomes that change. However, within that area we do have one or two concerns that we hope might be dealt with during the process of select committee consideration. First of all, there is a proposition within the bill that will exclude from cover personal injury that is solely attributable to a resource allocation decision. To give one example of what this might mean, the provision could be applied to someone who is denied accident compensation cover when the recurrence of a metastatic cancer that is caused by delays in the provision of radiation therapy for a primary cancer occurs solely because there are not enough radiation therapists or equipment to carry out the treatment in a timely manner. Unfortunately, that is a very real kind of situation in New Zealand at present, and we would like to see the bill amended to remove that exclusion, at least for injuries of such severity that they currently qualify as medical mishaps\u2014for example, those causing death, hospitalisation for more than 14 days, or significant disability for more than 28 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ESecondly, The Green Party has concerns about the time limit on making decisions on claims of medical misadventure. At the moment the maximum time limit for the corporation to make a decision on a claim is 9 months, and that is retained in the new bill. That time limit has been a major concern for claimants, who are kept in limbo, often with no support at all, for lengthy periods. The Green Party is keen to see the bill amended so that the Accident Compensation Corporation will be allowed a shorter time limit to process claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI move now to one or two other features of this bill. We welcome the amendment to provide discretion for the Accident Compensation Corporation to provide entitlements in areas where it is currently not liable to do so. Current legislative restrictions mean that the Accident Compensation Corporation is prevented from granting discretionary entitlements, even when it clearly would be beneficial to both the claimant and the corporation to do so. Examples include the 3-year limit placed on vocational rehabilitation, and the 28-day limit on the provision of attendant care while outside New Zealand. However, quite strangely, the new bill takes away with the same hand that gives, with its proposal to exclude such discretionary decisions from the review and appeal process. The Green Party will oppose any of the Accident Compensation Corporation\u2019s decisions being protected from an application for review or an appeal by a claimant. That is especially important given that there are already very limited rights of review in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFinally, there are a number of other, fairly minor, reforms to accident compensation in this bill that the Green Party does support. Those are, for example, amendments relating to cover for mental injury due to sexual abuse prior to 1 July 1992, changes to the definition of earnings as an employee, and an amendment to the definition of \u201Caccident\u201D, which corrects a rather strange anomaly resulting from certain court decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis is a bill whose overarching purpose is well overdue, and I hope the select committee process will allow members to improve it where it is not quite right. I congratulate the Minister on her persistence in bringing about long-needed changes to the way in which the Accident Compensation Corporation deals with medical misadventure, and I look forward to hearing what submitters have to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00228b11267722af4d3f878212faa79671f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b11267722af4d3f878212faa79671f3\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 3) appears to be a series of amendments tidying up Accident Compensation Corporation anomalies that exist at present. The key measure, of course, is the new regime for treatment injuries. It is interesting to have a quick look through the explanatory note, where the Government states that its aim \u201Cmoves away from the punitive system of finding medical error and reporting medical misadventure cover decisions: gains the co-operation of the health sector to participate in the claim process, to support claimants to make claims \u2026 : supports and acts as a catalyst for quality/learning initiatives in the health sector:\u201D, and \u201Chelps maintain the safety net through reporting cases \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAll of these are very worthy, and I think that not a person in this Chamber would disagree with them. In my mind, the question is, in practice, how all of those points will be achieved. It is a good start to try to deal with the difficulties around medical mishaps. The definitions, which include \u201Cerror\u201D and \u201Crare and severe\u201D criteria, will be replaced with a definition of \u201Cpersonal injury caused by treatment\u201D, or, as it is referred to throughout the bill, the newly defined \u201Ctreatment injury\u201D. That is a step in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EMadam Chair, I am just finding it a little difficult to concentrate, with the conversations happening around me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214f128e31fd840629c1332b85e1945f1\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I say to members\u2014please can the member be seated\u2014it is very difficult for members to hear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275691bbde83048168736a2aa932fd85b\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I think that given the Accident Compensation Corporation\u2019s \u201Cno fault\u201D approach to accident compensation, it is very logical to deal with these things. Some time ago, when these changes were first mooted, I made some statements. I think that for too long there has been an incentive for patients to find fault with the performance of our medical professionals\u2014I will come on to the flip side of that coin in a moment. A separation of guilt and compensation, and a fairer system of medical misadventure assessment, is long overdue. Under our current system, a claimant is expected to prove fault by a health professional, who then has to be found culpable in order for compensation to be awarded. That has provided in the past a tempting financial incentive for a patient to prove that his or her health professional has erred. That, obviously, is unacceptable, and there should be no such incentive in a fair system. Changes are definitely needed to ensure that anyone seeking medical compensation does so, but not frivolously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe Minister has said on many occasions that people who should be entitled to compensation have been missing out when it comes to medical misadventure. It is very important that there is some sort of balance in this regard. ACT has maintained for quite some time that the fairest and most efficient way to deal with this matter is to establish an insurance-based scheme that should be open to competition, including involvement from the private sector. This would ensure that while deserving patients are compensated, our health professionals are not left open to illegitimate claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EGoing back briefly to what the Government intends in this legislation, it talks about supporting and acting as a catalyst for quality learning initiatives in the health sector, and I believe that that comes back directly to protected quality assurance provisions for all health professionals. Those have been seen for many years and have developed well over the past decade amongst the medical profession, and that profession has been including other health professionals as time has gone on, and other health professionals have also developed their own good-quality quality assurance programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act, which is due to come into force in September, provided a lot of discussion around this point. At the beginning, many of us on the select committee were very unhappy with the provisions for the protection of quality assurance programmes. Those concerns have in the main been dealt with, and certainly the medical profession and many of the other health professionals\u2019 bodies have now decided that they can operate well with them. But what we want to establish is an environment where health professionals feel they are able to get together with a degree of protection and discuss mistakes that have been made in a no-blame environment, and learn from the experiences of those who have been in such positions themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EBefore I move forward much further, I would like to talk a little about the accident compensation scheme generally, and again these are points that are pertinent to this legislation, although they do cover the whole of the scheme. ACT has always been unhappy that injuries caused by accident are covered for compensation, but illness is not. Those of us who have worked in the medical profession do not have to look very far to find examples. In fact, if one wanders into any orthopaedic ward in the country, in either private hospitals or public, one will often see two patients in beds side by side. One might be somebody who is perhaps in his or her 60s who, through no fault of his or her own, has developed osteoarthritis and requires surgery for a joint replacement. It is not uncommon to find in the next bed a young person who might have had a motorbike accident\u2014frequently caused by that person\u2019s own mistake\u2014and because it was an accident, that person is covered for compensation. Those of us who have worked in that situation often observe the injustice those two separate injuries present, despite the fact that they receive similar treatment and the patients have similar health needs. New Zealanders deserve a health system that deals with those two categories requiring medical treatment in the same way. Many people seem to have given up on creating that fair kind of system, but it is achievable by using insurance-based schemes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EFor a brief period, of course, in 1999, we did have a glimmer of hope about achieving that type of system. Competition was introduced into the market, and the private sector was allowed to tender alongside the public. The choice that was presented to the employers for the employers account in this regard is something that ACT is certainly committed to achieving again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EBut if I turn back to the bill, I find it does appear logical to align \u201Ctreatment injuries\u201D\u2014as the new definition will be\u2014with the general no-fault approach to accident compensation. But ACT would like to highlight some potential problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe bill tries to define treatment injury so as to exclude the particular injury or complaint itself. Some might say that that is logical, but for others it would signal a creeping extension of the accident compensation scheme to cover sickness and ill health, and I do not think that is the intention of this legislation at all. But in trying to define it, issues do arise. The new section 32(2), proposed to be inserted into the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Act by clause 13, describes the sorts of things that are not considered personal injuries, and there is a list. They include the underlying condition. They also include anything that might arise from a logical progression of the condition or treatment, if it is an anticipated part of the treatment, and may include known side effects, as an example. But then the new section 33 defines \u201Ctreatment\u201D extremely widely. It includes treatment, diagnosis, and even the decision not to give treatment or to not provide treatment in a timely manner. Potentially any situation where a health professional fails to immediately and correctly diagnose a condition and correctly treat it could be construed as a treatment leading to a treatment injury. That could even apply perhaps to the non-treatment of the thousands of people on waiting lists for elective services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EBut going back to the new section 32(2)(c), that paragraph lets the Government off the hook, by excluding from the definition of personal injury caused by treatment or treatment injury \u201Cpersonal injury that is solely attributable to a resource allocation decision:\u201D, and this is where the waters suddenly become very murky. The lack of treatment, or failure to provide treatment, is defined as a treatment\u2014so far, so good. But what if the injury is not solely attributable to a resource allocation decision? What if that is only 90 percent of the reason for the injury? So here I think, and my concern is raised, that this opens up the grey area for lawyers and litigation that has been discussed by some other members. There is a grey area in what is a result of a resource allocation decision, and a grey area as to whether and to what extent any treatment is an anticipated part of treatment. It would seem that conflicting medical opinions will be all that is required to show that some doubt exists as to the cause of any injury. I too, like Dr Hutchison, would like to highlight that there is no regulatory impact statement with this bill, and we will be raising that at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9d27f0a35ba4df6b48a98d95bd9e954\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9d27f0a35ba4df6b48a98d95bd9e954\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to support the referral of the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 3) through to the select committee stage. As a consequence of a recent review initiated by the Government, this bill is primarily designed to change the way in which medical misadventure claims are covered by the accident compensation scheme. Such claims fall into two categories: medical error, which covers the failure of a health professional or organisation to observe a certain standard of care, and medical mishap, which covers adverse consequences of treatment. But perhaps the most significant amendment in this bill is that it removes the distinction between the two, and replaces them with a definition of \u201Cpersonal injury caused by treatment\u201D. Medical misadventure claims now cost about $47 million a year, and the changes are estimated to cost an extra $8.69 million, because the new definition of \u201Ctreatment injury\u201D does broaden the scope of claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAmongst the present criteria for a successful medical mishap claim is the requirement that the injury needs to be both rare and severe, which means that it must occur in no more than 1 percent of cases and in some cases requires at least another 14 days of treatment. Such criteria are too arbitrary, often bearing little relationship to the circumstances of patients and resulting in a significant number of claimants unfairly missing out on cover. It probably comes as little surprise to learn that since the medical misadventure system was introduced in 1992, 60 percent of claims have been declined for failing to meet the criteria. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIn terms of establishing medical error, the current criteria mean establishing that an individual practitioner or organisation is at fault. That has always been inconsistent with the no-fault ethos of the accident compensation scheme. The removal of the distinction between error and mishap under this bill, and the new focus on personal injury caused by treatment, directs the Accident Compensation Corporation to examine the injury that results, not whether someone is to blame for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIn addition, the current requirement that the corporation must establish responsibility and report individual practitioners involved in medical error claims to the relevant registration authority has resulted in reluctance to participate in the claims process on the part of health practitioners. As a result, the resolution of claims is often delayed or hindered, and it is the person who is injured who suffers as a result, whether medical error is established or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIt is expected that practitioners will be more receptive to an accident compensation claim investigation if they know that it is focused more squarely on ascertaining whether the patient is eligible for assistance, rather than determining where the fault lies. That raises the question of who has responsibility that those who make medical errors are investigated. Under the bill, the Accident Compensation Corporation will have a clear obligation to inform claimants of their ability to complain about treatment injury, and of the role of the Health and Disability Commissioner. If the corporation decides there is a risk of harm to the public as a result of information it collects in order to process claims, then it must report the information to the agency that has statutory responsibilities for addressing and determining competency issues, such as the Director-General of Health. That is entirely consistent with the corporation\u2019s injury prevention role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIt is also fair to point out that the mechanisms for dealing with practitioner competence have developed significantly since the medical misadventure scheme began. Since the establishment in 1996 of the Health and Disability Commissioner to resolve patients\u2019 complaints and accountability concerns, there has been a fourfold decrease in the number of practitioners facing disciplinary hearings. District health boards have improved systems in place to monitor and address issues arising from adverse medical events, and the passage of the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act last year created a single regulatory framework for health professionals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EPerhaps the key area of concern for United Future is that the bill may not go far enough to ensure that incidents of treatment injury are fully investigated. That is not to say that that should be the responsibility of the Accident Compensation Corporation, as we accept the position that that is not the intent of the scheme, nor is it where the corporation\u2019s expertise lies. But we do need to make absolutely sure that some other entity steps into the breach, and it needs to be aware of what is going on when it does so. This House is all too familiar with one common cause of most incidents of systemic failure: the lack of inter-agency coordination. Perhaps the examples that spring most readily to mind are those tragic instances where the agencies involved in child protection have failed to work together to ensure the safety of abused and neglected children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI am concerned that the desire to put the Accident Compensation Corporation at arm\u2019s length from investigations into staff competence could lead to a situation whereby the risk of further injuries is not adequately communicated to those who have responsibility for practitioner competence and conduct. For example, what is the threshold for action in a situation in which the Accident Compensation Corporation decides it should pass on information that it collects in the course of processing claims that suggests there is a risk of harm to the public? Does the corporation wait until it is aware of repeated instances of error, or does it act only when it considers the problems to be systemic, rather than simply accidental? And are there such things as accidents, or, on the other hand, is there a danger that the reporting requirements that remain will still lead to reluctance from health practitioners to participate in the claims process if they feel they will be reported to their professional body? Those are certainly issues that the committee will need to focus on when considering the bill. But at this stage we are very happy for it to enter the process, and we will support the first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002292cc6328303b419b9ff1276784382dac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292cc6328303b419b9ff1276784382dac\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I take a short call to say that I am delighted the bill will be referred to the Health Committee, which is a very able committee due to its membership across the parties, and which will be able to consider this bill thoroughly. The one aspect of the bill that I think is very exciting is the removal of the \u201Cfault\u201D or \u201Crare and severe\u201D test that is currently required by the Accident Compensation Corporation. It has been a stumbling block and has meant that patients have not been able to get their full entitlement for compensation quickly, because the high threshold for rare and severe conditions has had to have been tested out. There are many other aspects of this bill that are very, very positive. It is the third accident compensation bill of this Government, and I look forward to considering it in the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022830d9b5f3e864574b88dda12279510cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022830d9b5f3e864574b88dda12279510cc\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I too will take just a short call on this bill. The previous speaker for the National Party, Dr Paul Hutchison, summed up this bill very well. There are a couple of little issues I would like to highlight. The previous speaker, Steve Chadwick, has just commented on the \u201Cfault / no fault\u201D provision and the difficulty with medical misadventure. Certainly, in our electorates, we find that one of the biggest complaints of members of the public is that they do not understand why the different attitude in relation to medical misadventure exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E But, of course, that is the nature of accident compensation; it is never going to please anyone in the first place. In many ways it is trying to deal with a situation and say that there is no fault, when actually a lot of people feel that there is a certain amount of fault\u2014particularly if one happens to be the victim of a drunk driver. It is very difficult to tell that person there is no fault, and it is even more difficult to explain why somebody who hurt a knee in a driving accident in which that person happened to be drunk and caused the accident should get instant medical treatment on a knee while a World War II veteran has to linger for years and years, and is basically left to die because the veteran cannot get an operation. I would certainly be very happy to see a situation where the veterans of this country get treated with the same respect as the drunk drivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn essence we are supporting the referral of this bill to the Health Committee. We have, of course, some concerns, as Dr Hutchison has outlined, but we will try, with the Government and the other parties, to get this bill in good order. I note that it is the third accident compensation bill that this Government has put up in the last 5 years, and it does beg the question of when it is going to get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00226a2a332cc9d247c7a44668cb8896e37f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a2a332cc9d247c7a44668cb8896e37f\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I rise to support the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 3) being referred to the Health Committee. The previous speaker from New Zealand First summed it up very well. As my colleague Peter Brown said, New Zealand First has been pushing for this legislation for many years. I think he mentioned the figure of 5 years, which is a long time. We are very aware too that many people in New Zealand have been waiting for this legislation, particularly those suffering from medical misadventure. Nobody wants to go into hospital for an operation and to come out with another condition that he or she never went in with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIt is a very important bill. We are looking forward to those people who are affected by the bill having some input at the select committee stage. As my colleague Peter Brown pointed out, there are some aspects of the legislation that New Zealand First is most interested in, and we want to ensure that this bill is correct. It is a significant bill, and the issue is costly for New Zealand, so it does need to be correct. We are very aware that there are a number of anomalies in the Act. We are pleased to see too that some of the definitions have been updated in line with other legislation, particularly when it comes to the word \u201Caccident\u201D, where we see that the bill clarifies that twisting movements are now included in the definition of \u201Caccident\u201D, rather than just the purely vertical physical movements that were in the previous legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe definitely do not want to see people missing out on compensation when they should be receiving it for medical misadventure. So on behalf of New Zealand First, I say that we will be most interested to see this bill come into the select committee process and to ensure that it is correct. We will be supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EBill read a first time, and referred to the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd90b6e0524941ecaf15e4722f0895e8\u0022\u003EElectricity and Gas Industries Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222de6bbf00d7b458cbc693440f7819516\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u002274f2a9cbff2b47d686b21e4745d12240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274f2a9cbff2b47d686b21e4745d12240\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Energy)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Energy: I move, That the Electricity and Gas Industries Bill be now read a second time. This bill is a further milestone in providing New Zealand with energy in an efficient, a fair, a reliable, and an environmentally sustainable manner in the post-M\u0101ui environment. The bill contains measures to promote security of supply, consumer protection, and competition, and to improve the governance of the electricity and gas industries. It updates the Electricity Act of 1992, to take account of the establishment of the Electricity Commission. The security of the supply of electricity is clearly essential to New Zealand and to New Zealanders. The bill provides an enhanced tool-box of powers for ensuring the security of the electricity supply, including enabling the Electricity Commission to contract for reserve energy supplies for very dry years. Additional regulation-making powers are provided for use if required, covering consumer protection, the promotion of retail competition, improved information for market participants, and the development of distributed generation. Regulation-making powers are also provided under an amendment to the Crown Minerals Act to allow better disclosure of information relating to gas and oil reserves. The bill also amends the Commerce Act, to clarify the interface between the functions and powers of the Commerce Commission and of the Electricity Commission in relation to the control of electricity distribution companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe bill was referred to the Commerce Committee, which heard submissions from a wide range of interested parties. I commend the committee for the excellent work it has done in refining this bill, and I support the committee\u2019s recommendations. I take this opportunity to discuss a number of improvements made to the bill by the committee. In relation to the gas sector, the bill now provides for the establishment of an approved industry body to co-regulate the gas industry, while retaining backstop powers to establish an Energy Commission if the industry\u2019s body is not successful. A co-regulatory approach was proposed by the Gas Industry Steering Group, made up of representatives from the upstream and downstream gas industry and gas consumers. It has been designed in consultation with, and with the support of, the industry. The co-regulatory model has been developed to ensure that the incentives on the industry are aligned with the outcomes the Government seeks, and that the governance arrangements are constitutionally sound. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe bill also amends the Electricity Industry Reform Act in order to allow electricity lines companies to own any type of generation equivalent to the higher of 50 megawatts or 20 percent of the network load. The companies are, of course, already able to own unlimited amounts of new, renewable generation. The electricity lines companies asked that the provisions in that Act that restrict the ability of lines companies to invest in generation and retailing be repealed. While the lines companies made some valid points, the Government believes that risks may still exist with regard to allowing lines companies back into generation and retailing. A major change of that nature to the current industry structure would not be appropriate without full consideration and consultation on the issues involved. For that reason, instead of repealing the provisions outright, Government members decided that a further easing of the limits on how much electricity the lines companies can generate is more appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EA number of important provisions are also included in the bill to ensure good governance and process. The Electricity Commission will be required to assess alternatives, costs, and benefits prior to making recommendations for regulations or rules. That will increase transparency around the Electricity Commission\u2019s decision-making and will reduce uncertainty for the industry. The Government also expects the commission to achieve its objectives primarily through information provision and contracting, and to use the regulation-making powers provided in the bill as a last resort. It is also proposed that  the current powers of the Minister under the Electricity Act be curtailed in a number of ways, including removing the Minister\u2019s power to direct the commission, limiting the Minister\u2019s ability to amend the commission\u2019s recommendations, and precluding the Minister from promulgating regulations unless the commission has first made a regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe select committee has also amended the bill in such a way that the power to transfer jurisdiction for the targeted price control regime for lines companies from the Commerce Commission to the Electricity Commission has been delayed until 31 March 2009. That change acknowledges the view of many submitters to the select committee who validly suggested that any change in the regulatory jurisdiction for large electricity lines companies, other than Transpower, should be further deferred so as to maintain the continuity and integrity of the price control and other assessment processes already initiated by the Commerce Commission. A further important improvement made by the select committee is to strengthen the mandate of the Electricity Commission to promote electricity efficiency, by allowing the commission to fund programmes relating to cost-effective energy efficiency and conservation. That is important in order to allow more effective promotion of energy efficiency and demand side management. The committee has also made explicit provision for Transpower to contract for generation and to manage grid reliability. That is important for situations where it may be more cost effective to generate electricity closer to the demand for it than to upgrade the transmission lines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe electricity and gas sectors are critical to New Zealand\u2019s economic growth. We face continuing challenges to ensuring the security of supply in both sectors at the best possible prices. Those challenges include the depletion of the M\u0101ui gasfield, our vulnerability to dry hydro years, and the growth in demand for electricity. At the same time we aim to make continuing progress towards a sustainable energy future. This bill is a key part of the Government\u2019s response to those challenges. The Government will clearly set out its objectives for the electricity industry in the Government policy statement that will be released following the passing of this bill. The Government policy statement will continue to invite the industry to use cooperative means to deliver on those results, so that the Electricity Commission will need to use its regulation-making powers only as a last resort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00228d74c3e989b04dfba5f9171a44f0b9cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d74c3e989b04dfba5f9171a44f0b9cc\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E National strongly opposes this legislation. There is no doubt that New Zealand is facing a power crisis. Each winter, Kiwis face an uncertain future. Will there be enough electricity for hot showers, will the lights stay on, or will they go off? Will there be enough energy to run our industries? Will there be enough energy to provide certainty to industry to attract capital, either foreign or domestic, into that type of infrastructural development? However, this piece of Government-sponsored nonsense will not achieve that certainty. Will this legislation answer the most often-asked question by people overseas who are thinking about investing in this country, which is \u201CWill you guarantee a constant and competitive source of electricity?\u201D Jim Anderton bangs on and on about the wood processing strategy in the forestry industry, but when one talks to the forestry people they say there are two gigantic flaws in Mr Anderton\u2019s strategy. One is the Resource Management Act and the other is a lack of certainty with regard to the constant source of energy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ESo will this legislation deal with those questions? The answer is that it will not. This legislation typifies what is wrong with this Cabinet. I could write their collective commercial experience on the back of a 45c stamp with a carpenter\u2019s pencil. They simply do not know how to respond to this problem so they are captured by textbook solutions and some very, very willing officials. This legislation is the bureaucrat\u2019s answer to a pragmatic problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EUnlike Mr Anderton, I will not bang on and on about the complexities of this industry\u2014and I do agree that there are some complexities. However, the reality is that we do not have enough generation in this country, and no amount of Government-sponsored nonsense like this will deal with that issue. Rather than face that simple fact, this Minister invents the Electricity Commission as the panacea to all our energy problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThirty years ago we had first-class infrastructure around energy in this country. But our regional economies have boomed and our population has grown by a million. In Canterbury alone, driven by irrigation, the demand for energy is now twice as much as two Dunedin Cities combined. What do we get from this Government? The Electricity Commission, as if it is the answer! It simply is not. But it is apparent that we will get it whether we like it or not. It would have been nice to get a model that actually works, but this arrogant Minister would not listen to some of our leading industry experts. Submitter after submitter came to the select committee and told the Minister that this process simply would not work. Companies like Contact Energy, Mighty River Power, Powerco, Meridian Energy, Transpower\u2014all major electricity users groups\u2014and the list goes on and on. But would the Minister listen? Absolutely not! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe overwhelming number of submitters expressed concerns about the Electricity Commission\u2019s design. It will create an institution with advisory operational and regulatory roles that place it in serious risk of performance failure and judicial review. Under this bill the Electricity Commission is to be a policy adviser, proposer of regulation and rules, purchaser and/or provider of market operations, purchaser of reserve power, seller of electricity in dry years, adjudicator of fines and penalties, industry facilitator, promoter of energy conservation, decision maker over investment services and prices of State-owned enterprises, and Commerce Act regulator of the prices and services of distribution and transmission companies. With the best will in the world, no matter how well managed, no company can manage effectively with that range of conflicting roles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIt gets worse. The Electricity Commission will not achieve satisfactory independence while it is subject to Government policy and ministerial intervention. We were warned at the select committee that these provisions are incompatible with a regulatory institution, and are in stark contrast to the independent processes associated with the Commerce Commission, as an example. The implications for investment in the electricity industry for this country are immense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn the absence of safeguards against regulatory appropriation, businesses subject to industry-specific regulation will protect themselves by simply under-investing in this industry. What is worse is that the industries that do invest will expect a higher rate of return than they would have otherwise sought, because they have to mitigate the risk that is being imposed on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe investment that does occur will be those types of organisations that have a direct door to the Minister\u2014ministerial-friendly companies. What we will get are those organisations that are the mates of \u201CBlackout Pete\u201D applying, and no one else will. The commission will work against investment, and that is exactly what is needed if we are to avoid further crises in this country. That is why the National Party is totally in support of the removal of any limits on line companies entering generation, subject to normal Commerce Commission oversight to make sure that they are not employing any anti-competitive practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThat we need investment in lines companies is absolute, but what will happen is the greatest tragedy of all. Line companies with fat balance sheets will simply invest in other people\u2019s economies. That will be a tragedy of huge proportions for New Zealand. With what has been suggested by this Minister, that may very well happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EFinally, I want turn my attention to the gas industry. There is no doubt that investment in this industry is expensive and risky, but if observers ever wanted a bare example of this Government\u2019s naivety, directing business to share their infrastructure is it. This is not one of \u201CBlackout Pete\u2019s\u201D better ideas. This is the rationale: investment in infrastructure is expensive and risky; if company X\u2014and let us call company X \u201CShell\u201D\u2014does invest and strikes it rich, we will tell all its competitor companies to use Shell\u2019s infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231259bdb26b345dfa3052d57dab6b63d\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37af8eb8d7541eabd8082601b8b24e5\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what he is suggesting. And there is one big flaw in that suggestion, is there not? Why on earth would one invest hundreds of millions of dollars into research, development, and expansion in this country, and then be directed by the Government that one must give one\u2019s competitors a leg-up\u2014one has to share the infrastructure? What that would do for one\u2019s competitors is keep their prices down and eliminate risks for them. Does anyone, bar this Minister, think that will attract foreign investment in our electricity or gas industries in this country? If so, they are in a very, very small minority. For goodness\u2019 sake! I tell the Minister to get real, resign, or at least get something more pragmatic and sensible in place before he plunges New Zealand into a permanent state of darkness. The Minister should get real.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022afa8cda0cf174af0991c7fd049e5610b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afa8cda0cf174af0991c7fd049e5610b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed his seat has the dodgiest CV of any member of this House. He has been investigated by his own party at a high level. He still has not come clean. He says that he is a consultant, a banker, and someone who works for international conglomerates. The truth is that he owns a farm on the Canterbury Plains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ERecent history of electricity in this country is that 30 years ago, when that member said we had perfect infrastructure, we were just getting through the 1975 crisis. That was what was going on then. But within years some bright spark said that we should stick a high dam across the Clutha River near a town called Clyde, which happened to be on a fault line. We spent millions of dollars grouting the bottom of the river, and then we spent millions more deciding to put a road through to Cromwell where the road did not want to go. Then we spent millions of dollars tunnelling into the hillside, and we decided we needed to do that because if we did not de-water the escarpment, then the lake would cause it to lubricate and fall into the lake, which had just formed, and overtop the dam that had just been built. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThat was the Clyde Dam. That was part of \u201Cthink big\u201D, that was Mr Muldoon, that was Mr Birch, and that was part of the 410,000 jobs that were going to come from \u201Cthink big\u201D. Search parties have gone out looking for those 410,000 jobs. They have searched the dominion high and low, including the off-shore islands; many of them have not returned, but no jobs have been found. So that was the history of the National Party and electricity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EBut wait, there is more. The National Party decided it was going to learn from its mistakes, so it decided it would deregulate. It decided it was going to privatise. It decided it was going to go to free market, and it decided that the market and the price discovery arising from the market would result in just enough electricity\u2014not too much, not too little, at just the right price that the market would always clear, that the people would always be happy, and that the lights would always stay on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThat is what happened with the National Party. It went from one extreme to the other and so we saw the split of ECNZ and its partial privatisation\u2014we put a stop to the rest of it. We saw the so-called \u201CBradford reforms\u201D, which were based on the idea that no one who owned a line could also own an electron\u2014a remarkable bit of public policy. That saw the whole of the electricity industry turned on its ear and a whole lot of people forced to sell assets that their communities had paid for over tens of years\u2014indeed in some cases, in Dunedin, over a century. That was the \u201CBradford reforms\u201D. The market would provide; there would be no need for anything!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E And then, guess what happened? In 2001 it stopped raining. What happened then? We started to run out of electricity. Did the price go up? Yes. Were people happy about that? No. Were we going to run out of electricity? Yes. So the then Government, this Government, intervened, in the form of a very substantial conservation campaign. We got a response from the public and we got ourselves out of the mess occasioned by \u201Cno market\u201D. In 2003 it happened again. At that stage we said we had had enough. We had put legislation through the House in 2001. It was strongly opposed by the National Party. The Government said: \u201CWe will need backstop legislation to set up an Electricity Commission, if we need one.\u201D The National Party said that the legislation was draconian. They said it was outrageous. They voted against it. They made a noise even greater than the noise they are making now, and when we needed that legislation in May 2003 we put it in without a whimper, because the Tories got it wrong again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe Tories get it wrong all the time. That is why we have gone from the extremes of \u201CRob Muldoon and Bill Birch know best\u201D, through to \u201Cthe market knows best\u201D, and now we have a managed market and a regulator. Now we have something roughly the same as what the rest of the world has. This legislation completes the job. It gives the commission a few more tools. It does for the gas industry what we have already done for the electricity industry. It means that we have a future in which we can have a little more certainty than we have had before. It allows reserve generation to be built. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EGuess what? We have already built the first bit of reserve generation, and I will tell members where. It is at a place called Whirinaki, just north of Napier. I will tell members something else about that site. The reason we used it is that there used to be a power station there. Several weeks ago we opened 150 megawatts of diesel. What happened was that the site had already been used in its history for a certain amount of power generation. It was 150 megawatts of diesel. Does that sound familiar? What happened to that 150 megawatts of diesel? I will tell members what happened. The Tories went free market, and the plant was picked up by Contact Energy, which had become the owners of it under privatisation. They sold the last bit of it in March 2001, just as the rains had stopped. That is what happens when the free market is allowed to go to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680610b4c40a4a699b47655f5c7a53fc\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Why doesn\u2019t every industry expert agree with you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c561bac60c1e4338a56cf4821853bc62\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member has decided that he is in favour of the National Party policy. Who knows what it is? He is clearly the next Opposition spokesperson on energy. Until now it has been Roger Sowry, before then it was Pansy Wong, before then it was Gerry Brownlee, and before then it was Max Bradford\u2014although that is a swear word these days. It cost him his job; he has left politics. That party changes its energy spokesperson every 12 months, and none of its members get up to speed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EJust contrast that with the United Future party, New Zealand First, the Greens\u2014all of those parties know what they are talking about. The Tories do not know what they are talking about on energy, and have not known since Doug Kidd ran the show. There was a Minister who did know something about energy. We have a situation where the Tories, having a history that has failed at one extreme, failed in another extreme, and is now busily recirculating its energy spokespersons, is going to run out of caucus members. Before too long there will be not one person in the National Party who has not had the energy portfolio. And still they will not know anything about it, because they have all held it for about 8 months, or whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESo I welcome the new member into the energy portfolio. I congratulate him on his outrageously stupid beginning. I think that is exactly the same beginning that has been made by three or four predecessors. He will get better, as they did. As soon as he has worked out how to spell the word \u201Cenergy\u201D he will have the portfolio taken off him and it will be given to someone else\u2014probably Lindsay Tisch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI say to National Party members that they should be supporting this legislation, because it is sensible. But because they do not understand the policy at all, and never will, I do not expect their support. We do not need it, and just as well. This is a House of Representatives, and those representatives represent those people who choose not to understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI say to the National Party to please try to get a grip on what is happening in the energy portfolio. Please try to understand that their history is far from proud. The 410,000 jobs never arose. The free market did not work. Electricity is not baked beans. It will never be baked beans. The National Party has not worked that out. I understand that National Party members in the select committee opposed the raising of the threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200408051e905bfc27f64f98b2e965128d23d996000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"