"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba052851726249cbbded65c544b17112\u0022\u003EThursday, 26 August 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022246d21219cf14b7c860f67e2d9fbda13\u0022\u003EThursday, 26 August 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a985b73720cb4c9a8e5b75ae8b28a927\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022855842256c524ef089339abca33ccf8a\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00222f6e81075582461298cdaf9cf435e4a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f6e81075582461298cdaf9cf435e4a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House, priority will be given to the first reading of the Ngati Awa Claims Settlement Bill and the remaining stages of the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 3), the Maori Fisheries Bill, and the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3012ceee06e442aaaa6d984495c82a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3012ceee06e442aaaa6d984495c82a1\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Could the Leader of the House indicate whether, during the remaining 3 weeks of this 4-week session, he intends to attempt to move the House into urgency for any matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c90c6925044c47e3815bb3c9fad8d3dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c90c6925044c47e3815bb3c9fad8d3dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E No. The member\u2019s leader is free to carry on normally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002231f213174bc64efbaacaddc510c3cd8a\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022261aff2cdb8543f9a4e7f29ffdf20c8e\u0022\u003EFisheries Amendment Bill (No 3)\u2014Referral of Supplementary Order Paper 246\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4d9b64b8720422391e44ebfcef95e39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4d9b64b8720422391e44ebfcef95e39\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to move member\u2019s notice of motion No. 3, in my name, without debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c9a098d02247ee8f789b76e0f94680\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f29dbea815104aa4a9ebbe0f11721e2e\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022117ef2ce9e9449e2907f631e5a7fe34e\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222efa5eb3e39c4147be9deb0633d30321\u0022\u003ERoading\u2014Transport Congestion\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239740d2e20b14c40bb284778bedea653\u0022\u003E1. JEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: When he said yesterday, in relation to reducing roading congestion, that \u201Cwe can\u2019t simply motorway our way out of trouble\u201D, what did he mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022f24486de76db401da07d7fd8a5e1b813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f24486de76db401da07d7fd8a5e1b813\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I meant that we need a balanced approach, one in which better roading sits alongside better public transport and demand management. Motorways alone will not work, and that is why this Government is spending record sums on public transport and traffic demand management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d5dd3b47046477a89a9c43b6dc98143\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How convincing does he find the Allen report to the Automobile Association, given its failure to take into account the economic effects of oil depletion and rising fuel prices and its use of an economic model that assumes that, if necessary, people can fill up their cars with coal, electricity, or gas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222453960e14934bc195426f03ec567d64\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday the Government welcomed that report as a useful contribution to the debate. It does have a number of contestable issues in it, and the member has alerted the House to some of them. My reading of the report is that it has, in fact, done two useful things. One of them is that it has identified precisely the years in which the infrastructure deficit arose as being those years when the National Party was in Government. I might say that, in respect of a funding response, the report probably underestimated the level of expenditure because it probably underplayed the role of public transport and rail freight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201060bd3d215411086203e4beed48b3e\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House, when he said that \u201Cwe can\u2019t simply motorway our way out of trouble\u201D, how we got into trouble in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229584352aee3e47ccae633cf89c986d89\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is, of course, the National Party. Yesterday\u2019s report precisely identifies and quantifies the years during the 1990s when we stopped investing adequately in infrastructure. That is what got us into trouble; this Government is getting us out of trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221429875524de4a689daa44842778e59e\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that our roading infrastructure is seriously lagging behind what is required from the point of view of traffic movement, which in turn leads to major economic disadvantage, safety problems, and, further, slow-moving vehicles causing environmental problems; and, if he does recognise that, will he adopt the Allen report solutions so that the huge benefits of an adequate roading infrastructure will flow through our economy to the advantage of us all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a4e64e738584893b683a6375077875a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I acknowledge a land transport infrastructure deficit, including, but not limited to, roads. I think that the Allen report, as I said in response to a question from Jeanette Fitzsimons, has probably underestimated the level of expenditure that is needed. It has certainly underestimated the level of expenditure that this Government intends. I might say that we would be in even worse trouble had the New Zealand First Party, when it was briefly in coalition with National, not shifted 3.2c from the consolidated account into roading, which is something that the National leader subsequently decided he would try to take credit for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e23ddd91743d41dea9664e1dc0ed51a0\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept the finding of the Allen Consulting Group report that the construction of rural passing lanes has a cost-benefit ratio of 4:1; if he does, will he advocate that they be prioritised for construction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022494a660e70f04a8d96b62e212068a803\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: As is often the case with reports of that ilk, they overlook what is already happening. Transit New Zealand has announced a 10-year plan for State highway development. In the year we currently find ourselves, Transit is building passing lanes\u2014and I speak from memory here\u2014at the rate of approximately one every 9 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ded41de6d854f6fb2958c6136a9de4e\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with this statement from the Allen report: \u201CIt is difficult to overstate the economic and social importance of New Zealand\u2019s road network. It plays a significantly bigger role than other transport modes, and connects them all. It permeates all aspects of economic and social activity.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068796eaaab34db0bd123b449f8fead5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, more or less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eee366c7f564fd0a0f3aecfc49b6f1f\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: What contribution to New Zealand\u2019s transport future, and to congestion relief in Auckland, was made by the 1993 National Party decision to sell rail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278ab81eec1294fadb92d77413c5e6997\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may answer, in so far as the question relates to his portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ce6515bcc24af1947a768dfcd86eeb\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly does, Mr Speaker. It was a particularly negative contribution, a particularly silly privatisation, and a particularly thoughtless, incomprehensible privatisation that should never have happened. This Government got up and got the track back for a dollar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208459fb5a4214009b8de4ee0fde79a25\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I ask for clarification: is the Minister aware of any other area of investment for Government funding that will produce superior returns to those outlined in the Allen report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8f9d4760364ef7847a1ef1a588b2ae\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The question ranges way outside the variety of portfolios I happen to hold. I wonder how education would fit alongside transport, but I am afraid I am not able to give an opinion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b48919a54c4569a09d105f4d20fb72\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Allen report where it clearly demonstrates that tax spent on road construction is an investment with significant returns for the economy; if he does, will he seek to reduce the amount diverted from the National Land Transport Fund to the Crown account, as advocated constantly by United Future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228969a203f9c543bdb5df11d46f481f98\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not be aware, so I remind him and the House, that this year expenditure on land transport has gone up by 18 percent. Not only that but we have said what the expenditure will be out to the years 2013 and 2014, by which time we will be spending approximately $2.8 billion a year on land transport infrastructure\u2014much more than twice the level of expenditure when we came to office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e5f26a5837482cbec650ceb5a11a19\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not think that the Minister really addressed the part of the question that related to the diversion of funds from excise duty into the Crown account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225c0e3e1feae4bf59d35f1965c058127\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister might like to comment briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284cfd2a38d324e05976cc3c8466cb380\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is a matter of fact that when the Government increased petrol tax in, I think, April 2002, all that money\u2014every cent\u2014went into roading. When legislation comes before this House again to raise petrol tax by 5c effective from 1 April next year, every cent of that will go into roading. I think the real question is whether the National Party will vote for that legislation, because those members said yesterday that it was time to stop talking and start doing something, but I bet they will vote against that tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4b9606f2b9b4643b23580ca9b23dc73\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the approach of Allen Consultants that the large environmental costs of a huge motorway programme should not be counted because one cannot put a dollar value on them, and do environmental costs not also cause economic costs down the track?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e0dbc790c84508a9f6c9e67d31c007\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot remember quite how the issue was phrased but, no, I do not agree with that part of the report; and, yes, I do agree with the member. I go on to say that the Allen report\u2019s analysis of carbon dioxide emissions was fairly faulty, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cf96b7b17ac46bb9a22d0ea35cfd1d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister whether the motherhood and apple pie, 1\u00BD page agreement between United Future and the Government has even one word on road transport funding; if not, why is the Government refusing to designate the harbour link to the biggest and most profitable port in this country, Tauranga, as a State or national road and designate the money collected until this point in time by road users for that purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e0359b33d15421496d7c5f01611d853\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am very recently advised that the document does refer to alternative mechanisms of funding for land transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229036df169d5543f391a829e36105f994\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked the Minister how it was that the harbour link to the biggest and most profitable port in this country, which is a vital economic infrastructural investment in this country, is not funded\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b110a9140e8445289480d8f82d3180e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e673bc9f553a4dbabe2e28fde323a87b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is that I want an answer, and if Mr English would keep quiet, I will make my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c03dc89dbcbf42b9bfd734a3db3480a7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will have his point of order heard in silence. There are two people who have offended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d8bc00d357742dcb46ae2c0c3ce6b5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I asked a question with regard to the funding of the harbour link to the Port of Tauranga. It was very clear what I asked, which was why the money collected for the purpose of the New Zealand road user was not spent on such roads. I want an answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228897616beec5424da0dff78edf4bdbe2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member did not ask that question. He asked whether there was any comment in the 1\u00BD page United Future - Labour agreement from the coalition about transport. I heard him quite clearly ask that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f432e9dbfcf46648e85f54a82eed16e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Hansard will show you clearly did not. I asked whether there was any reference to road transport funding from taxation with regard to the United Future document, and, if not, what was he supposed to do in respect of the harbour link to the Port of Tauranga. So it is very clear what the Hansard will show, and I want an answer to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e46ffbb1943c4850a15fdd55a4793c0b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members can ask one question. If there are two limbs, Ministers are not obliged to respond to both limbs. That is a risk members run in asking multiple questions. The Minister certainly replied to the first half of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb90b788bab41d2b703d5f98a5255de\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am very happy to abide by that as being the new ruling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c35bd84d7dbc43b9b9a03ca35ec8605b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a new rule. It has existed since at least 1966.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034a9bce445f4d75abb0c85637e00ba9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am very happy to abide by its new application, because I have heard members ask up to three questions. You have usually ruled out the last one, but not the first two, where they are related. I suggest to you that if this is to be the rule, then frankly it will be very, very tough on Opposition members in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224565cafa2bec408ea3c5469ce9deeeed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not, because the Minister chose to give an answer. He did address the question. That is the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df24e6a1fdaa4664b9db97dd6b665f20\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the modified Auckland eastern highway plan announced yesterday offers the worst of all worlds, in that it has no public transport component and will create big traffic jams when cars coming into the city merge into one lane as they enter Hobson Bay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279362a0029e04ee187e696a03adfeb4b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not make personal comments on individual projects, and neither have Ministers of Transport before me; nor will, I am sure, Ministers of Transport yet to be born.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c638fbd185e64264913a4a9b22f2f7bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when the Government is taking $1 for the consolidated account from every $2 collected for the purpose of road construction, maintenance, repair, and road safety, is the Government not moving to ensure that the harbour link to the Port of Tauranga\u2014the biggest port in New Zealand\u2014is a State or national road funded from those same funds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022074e9debb3394a2299b4407a0a8532d6\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The fact of the matter is that since the Government came into office, an increasing proportion\u2014and it is about to increase further\u2014of all petrol excise duties has been made over to land transport infrastructure; more than ever was the case prior.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eaf7259aaea45a4b76ae2544ff8cbbc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked the Minister about Tauranga specifically. I think he can answer that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022048a238df680460f8c877e31da94b6f1\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not intend to comment on individual projects. Ministers of Transport before me have not; neither, I suggest, will Ministers of Transport yet to be born.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3718721d2d047f9bad4e6ffa4381aea\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is not the main failing of the Allen report the lack of any comparison between the economic return from new roads and the long-term economic return from travel demand management, public transport, and rail development? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c574c25877a454183cd02d6960a6868\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I hope that by now I have left the member with the view that I consider the Allen report to be a useful contribution to the land transport debate. I think it is. It is not, however, a document with a level of sophistication that I think is sufficient for investment decisions to be made, and I suspect that the land transport agencies, such as Transfund, would agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229de11fa07463410d9338d443610c2e1d\u0022\u003ERefugees\u2014Immigration, Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e70220e50047bc913f7c938552f30b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Immigration\u2019s handling of the refugee issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd6d58da8f34d36ab600363c9b0c4dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd6d58da8f34d36ab600363c9b0c4dc\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c5733eec81d4f9a9a05bdba3b2c5c23\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Prime Minister\u2014whilst the Minister wipes his brow\u2014what regard, if any at all, has been paid by the Minister to the briefing paper given in August 2002 on the issue of immigration and refugees, and their dislocation and non-placement in our economy; if he has not paid regard to it, how come he still has the job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022837408b03b18440e824b1020906d49c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a lot of regard is being given to exactly those issues in this term of Parliament. The Minister was able to announce, in connection with this year\u2019s Budget, a package of $62 million over 4 years to deal with migrant settlement issues, and in the previous year the Minister for Social Development and Employment had another $21 billion put into his department over 4 years to deal precisely with specialist services providing migrants and refugees with placement in employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c37bd2be7a40abad33b909ae3320db\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister satisfied that, under her watch, 90 percent of refugees welcomed to this country are still on a benefit after 2 years, and that, after 5 long years of the Labour Government, 80 percent of refugees are still on a benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205fb302948b54485837d0f6ef2ea5658\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am satisfied that we are putting in place services to deal with those problems that have never been in place before. I am also satisfied that among the refugee community are simply outstanding examples of people who want to get ahead. For example, a young Kurdish man who came here as a refugee was this week reported in the New Zealand Herald as having been awarded the Simpson Grierson employment law prize for topping his class. There are plenty of other such stories.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225541ba594c4b4fcf9ca10946d4e88bf0\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: How is New Zealand\u2019s international reputation affected by two parties scrapping over which can be the most mean-spirited to the world\u2019s most desperate people, and rather than taking\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e9cd4cef8b54ccfb55a89a6174b305e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have said every member has the right to ask his or her question in silence. People might not agree with it, but this is a democracy, and everyone has that right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217c712da9dcb42129fa4d91901a142bb\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: How is New Zealand\u2019s international reputation affected by two parties scrapping over which can be the most mean-spirited towards the world\u2019s most desperate people; and, rather than taking fewer refugees, as National and New Zealand First propose, should we not be taking\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d29351e3a864ee18adac1e600e3eda0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Roger Sowry will leave the Chamber. I will judge that; of course there is no responsibility, and I am going to rule in that way, but I told him not to interject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ac6fe4a6314fe99d8103e77a92f95c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Our Standing Orders require that any questions made to Ministers not include any arguments, references, imputations, epithets, or ironic expressions that may be negative to other members of the House. Quite clearly, that question breached that Standing Order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b327cf975bdd44a3a8c0ddabe4b810a1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was about to rule in that way, and I was going to rule the question out of order. I have not yet heard one word that was in order\u2014and the member has had two goes. I am moving on to the next supplementary question. [Interruption] No, the member has had two goes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022496e21a391d448fd99da47862de1ab43\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was interrupted a couple of times in presenting my question. Surely I should have the courtesy of at least finishing it, because I do have a direct question to the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f87f95fd92a4bfdbc51352b6e2bddbe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, the member is too late. I gave him a second opportunity and tried to say to him that he should make the question in order. I am very generous indeed in this area, and I gave him a second go. Of course, I asked a member to leave the Chamber because of his interjections while the member was asking his question. But the question is not yet in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d8f178616c42e2b09ce26e5ac467dd\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You may have made a reference to a member over on that side of the Chamber about the content of Mr Locke\u2019s question, but you never actually directly said to him that you were unsatisfied with it. So, before you have even given him the chance to rephrase it, you have ruled him out from asking the question. I think you should let him have a chance to ask a question that is within the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a689a2924b594238be0ca99e9ec4b72b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was very generous earlier this week to another party. I will let Mr Locke have a final go, but he must ask a question that is only in relation to the Prime Minister\u2019s responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9adf5eff0ad47b1ac4cc65b9a3a5776\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Should we not be increasing the number of refugees, rather than reducing them, particularly in view of the fact that the total number of refugees we accepted last year\u2014that is, the quota refugees plus the asylum seekers\u2014was only 821?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a1aa9df83a45a4ab3238f04a5c2f04\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I think we would want to see better results than we are getting at the moment, and have had for many years, in terms of settlement, before we increased the numbers. But I note that the previous Leader of the Opposition made exactly that point a year or so ago, when he said that he would be prepared to consider the quota being raised if resources were in place\u2014a very different line from that taken by his front-bench colleague Mr Ryall this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0652b69e6ad4f23bfa4144feba94040\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister received reports suggesting that when New Zealand First warned of the failure of this refugee and immigration policy it was accused by the National Party of xenophobia; and has she received any further report that might suggest we could look forward to the day when \u201CNew Zealand Second\u201D stops stealing New Zealand First\u2019s policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022849fc33cbf504d9faac4f9f6d4634303\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first part of the question is in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022432d98a793dc4505b10a910c4a1b315f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That would be like asking to take the politics out of politics. But I do agree with the member that there appears to have been a marked change in the National Party\u2019s attitude. I personally found its previous leader\u2019s attitude on refugee issues much more enlightened than the drivel that came from Mr Ryall last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caa6d9a79c104da398305a8e248c6e09\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have, as you are entitled to do, shown great leniency to Mr Locke in relation to his supplementary question. In the circumstances, I invite you to consider showing a similar spirit of generosity to Mr Sowry and inviting him to rejoin us in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e79e083020349e38c1b6af98e9e40a3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is Thursday I think that is a fair comment. I will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde63324c1cc4d249d1470e71d8f4684\u0022\u003EGovernment Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228619053be7e14911b27776e4ba165303\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That does not mean that others will not be asked to leave. I go only so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022544e1ea25b4e4b4f99b5d97bc24912d9\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Cambridge High School\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b19aca30bc3b462a8dd50fef2b1c01a0\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he agree with the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2019s statement that with regard to NCEA assessment practices at Cambridge High School, \u201CThere is no evidence that the issues identified at the school by NZQA are happening at other schools.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad3a25ac9ac542e8b34131908a3dafac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad3a25ac9ac542e8b34131908a3dafac\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Acting Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because that is the advice I have received from the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. This was an extreme case, and it showed a distinct lack of professionalism. I am confident that the vast majority of New Zealand teachers operate in a very professional manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2a38389d3f4635ad4d15ad8fea211c\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why can the Minister rely on statements made by the New Zealand Qualifications Authority when media reports today demonstrate that the authority was investigating evidence of exactly the same sorts of practices as those shown at Cambridge High School at another school, probably at the time that the authority made that statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226056be4a84d5463c9c8832d259d4bfa1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that\u2014and I imagine the member is referring to a particular school reported in the New Zealand Herald, which named it as Hauraki Plains College\u2014the situation at the school, as reported in the New Zealand Herald, is an example of how schools should deal with the problems. As soon as the school became aware of the potentially inadequate assessment activities it put student results on hold, it identified problems with its policy and modified the policy, and it asked the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to evaluate and confirm the changes made in the policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249bae15f9e1c421d9df2a690fd032402\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the National Certificate of Educational Achievement NCEA) a better system for the student?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e087a8e8a2f44236857e55ec7bd82338\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The NCEA gives students, teachers, and employers a very detailed picture of how students are performing in each subject, unlike the old School Certificate system, which automatically consigned 50 percent of the students to failure and 50 percent to success, regardless of their actual standard of work. When students achieve in an area of learning we will now know exactly what skills they possess, not just that they did better or worse than the average. For instance, a builder looking for an apprentice will see whether a student can actually do geometry. That level of detail was not possible under School Certificate, which just gave an overall mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbdf3c752f98403e8c4be65a77f48239\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is not the issue with regard to current NCEA practices one that was created after 1999 by the Ministry of Education amalgamating achievement and unit standards\u2014two totally different historical achievement strands in secondary education\u2014and when will the Minister move to reform the practices that are inherent in the current NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b332949c2774ae9a25a76bfafc36f8f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member who asked that question is an expert in this area and knows the history. He has correctly described some of what has gone on. However, I say to that member that today we have a standards-based system that is a distinct improvement on a mere ranking system, and as the principals themselves say, the system meets their needs and provides better motivation for academic success than in the past. As with the implementation of any system of this size, there will be bedding-down problems. Those problems will be sorted out, and we will be left with a better system. The issue is about improving the system, not changing it entirely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b5af892b84e4325a9957140f3e8c318\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister conduct a nationwide review of NCEA procedures and policies, as requested more than 2 months ago by more than 20 State school principals who were so desperate and so concerned that they took out a newspaper advertisement about the NCEA\u2019s credibility; if not, why is he just arrogantly ignoring the very people who are responsible for educating young New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423e384d90ca4d90923d2d73244cf01b\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can really do better than to take the words of the Principals Council, which recently noted that\u2014and I will paraphrase what it had to say\u2014although there will be problems, we should always be on the look-out for situations and deal with them when they arise, but, rather than throw the baby out with the bath water, we should use examples like Cambridge High School to allow us to get proper processes in all schools. That is the best approach\u2014to look at the system when issues like that arise, to learn from them, and to move on in a good system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c4c0b5d1c94d96a6ce7b7f5ebbe83d\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister at all disturbed that it took a letter from a student to an education magazine to raise concerns about Cambridge High School\u2019s assessment practices, when the school has produced artificially high results over the last 2 years; if so, will he finally ask some hard questions of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2014an organisation that has bungled the implementation of the NCEA from the very beginning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277970a92ef2c4e9598a57847d5232404\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the member that the Minister of Education always asks hard questions of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. However, we are dealing here with a situation where a school is regularly reviewed. In the case of Cambridge High School, it appears that that school hid some of the activities that were going on in the school. As soon as those activities became apparent to the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2014not through a letter, but through other means\u2014it went back to the school, which is now under the control of two statutory managers. It cannot be more controlled than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a5a0fed9528449d900b7a15b3ad735a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell me how the New Zealand Qualifications Authority could have investigated assessment practices at Hauraki Plains College when the activity workbooks and assessment workbooks in question are in the box I have here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022782649a1af37494c820d95508f4eb762\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As a former university lecturer I always approve of people using visual aids to illustrate their point, so I thank the member for that. [Interruption] It is an aspect that the member himself states has disappeared. All I can say to the member is that I am assured by the New Zealand Qualifications Authority that this matter was dealt with appropriately. The authority was invited into the school, and has dealt with the matter in the appropriate fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc04dedad8ca4ee0af2efc0263250abd\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister go back to the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and ask it how it investigated assessment practices at Hauraki Plains College, when the scripts that I have here show many students gave exactly the same answers to questions, show 6th form students earned 3 credits in a matter of 3 or 4 days, and show students probably signed each other\u2019s assessments, rather than teachers doing that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c69eca593a944916bc480c503e46dae1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I assure the member that, of course, every claim made by him and with evidence to support it will be investigated thoroughly by myself, and I will ensure that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority follows up on those issues thoroughly. But I say the system of a standards-based assessment is vastly better than a ranking system such as School Certificate, which allowed so many National Party people to get through their qualifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b58083c367854594a35822f2b674b262\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What are the thousands of students, parents, and teachers to make of statements by the New Zealand Qualifications Authority in the New Zealand Herald today that it has investigated the problems at Hauraki Plains College, when the authority could not have seen the evidence of bad assessment practice because that was not available to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242edfe7b2c2c40329171192a718ebe1c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I take the claims of the member seriously. I am sure he is an honourable member. If he has those claims to make and evidence to back them up, then I am always willing to look at the issues raised by him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f126e93ca98a4998a3a754c96d9c3452\u0022\u003EInternational Reputation\u2014Criticism in Australia\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221756f1094f264d5baba2efe744c5983d\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade: What are the risks to New Zealand\u2019s international reputation of any criticisms of New Zealand in Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00223cfbf14c56634b10934201bcdd9c63e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cfbf14c56634b10934201bcdd9c63e7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E There was a risk that New Zealand\u2019s reputation might have been damaged, and investor confidence diminished, by Dr Brash bagging his own country to the business community in Australia last week. However, as business reporter Bob Edlin wrote in the Independent this week: \u201CThe more Brash says, the more likely he is to expose his humbug, and the more humbug he exposes, the less likely he is to displace the Clark government.\u201D In that sense the risk and the damage done was more to the National Party in New Zealand than it was to New Zealand\u2019s reputation overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61e204f3599474b80595b55e16ccf7c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Was New Zealand\u2019s reputation with the Australian business community damaged by the argument that our labour laws, and the proposal for 4 weeks\u2019 minimum annual leave, made New Zealand unable to compete with Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b20704ee41f5441482af72bdb5c48307\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Australian business community must have regarded Dr Brash\u2019s attempt to undermine his own country in that regard as simply farcical. They would know, as apparently Dr Brash does not, that Australia has had 4 weeks\u2019 minimum annual leave for 30 years, and that the World Bank has put New Zealand ahead of Australia in terms of the flexibility of its labour laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226edea866ec2d464a9e06fb71fe74dfd8\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What effects does he think references to a paralysis in the process of New Zealand government, warnings of social distress, and gloomy predictions of fear and insecurity have on foreign business groups that might consider investing in New Zealand, and has he received any reports on the ongoing effects on New Zealand\u2019s international reputation of those statements made by Helen Clark, the then Leader of the Opposition, in Hong Kong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397c5e8808714a7db48de78c765c362c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, those comments accurately described New Zealand\u2019s plight in the 1990s. Clearly, the international community has seen that this country has done better than practically any other OECD country under 5 years of extremely good Labour Government \u2013 led policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022151cf36767f94b31b59f20ac767a1ec3\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence is there of New Zealand about to decline into becoming just another Pacific Island State?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206b10e6e2c704440b652e6234b7418b5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There is, of course, no evidence to support Dr Brash\u2019s attempt to belittle New Zealand in that way. As John Armstrong wrote in the Otago Daily Times, this \u201Cnot only bordered on the ridiculous, it was silly politics to boot.\u201D The National Bank regional trend survey recently issued shows our annualised June economic growth at 4.3 percent, which is one of the best in the OECD. The unemployment rate at 4 percent is the second-best rate in the OECD, and Transparency International has consistently found that in terms of good governance and lack of corruption New Zealand is one of the top three countries in the world. Nothing that Don Brash has said to bag New Zealand denies those facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1a347511e9549239d17243cafd47224\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a speech by the Rt Hon. Helen Clark to the New Zealand Hong Kong Business Association in 1994 bagging New Zealand off shore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f8e39148ad486db700be7e8c1c7752\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Go and have a literacy test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234283c66c99c406fb09889ef249fb811\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Go and get a speech lesson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251d2c3b6afc8412189597eedfca57ca8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is in direct reference to me. The member will now stand, withdraw, and apologise. She is a senior whip and should know better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022973baa173b5a4a179340c525a8119116\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I do apologise, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002250d8cd6c8c274465bdad26ffaf82fdce\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Cambridge High School\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b420d21-23ae-4857-b5ab-8cff62b532d1\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff46110cf1d4ef69e3322c520077d02\u0022\u003EDONNA AWATERE HUATA (Independent)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Was it his intention that any school would achieve a 100 percent pass rate in NCEA; if not, why did the New Zealand Qualifications Authority not investigate this at Cambridge High School until credit-cramming practices were reported in the media?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022743b95f5366d412c92f4e6e5f8d6ac7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022743b95f5366d412c92f4e6e5f8d6ac7d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Acting Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E There is no set pass rate, and students are expected to achieve at the level they are capable of. The New Zealand Qualifications Authority regularly visits schools, and visited Cambridge High School in 2003, but the school did not disclose the existence of its achievement recovery room, as the authority would have expected from a school that was operating professionally and with integrity. As soon as the New Zealand Qualifications Authority became aware of the issues at the school around the same time as the media, it moved to investigate, and subsequently issued a compliance notice telling the school to stop the use of its achievement recovery room. Two statutory managers are now working in the school alongside the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b420d21-23ae-4857-b5ab-8cff62b532d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65a61a2641b4ddfbcfe17a137ad18d4\u0022\u003EDonna Awatere Huata\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister recall the Minister of Education assuring this House and the select committee that systems he had in place, including moderation, a higher level of external exams, and visiting inspectors, would ensure that the kinds of practices now being revealed could not happen, and does the minister now regret foisting on New Zealand an untried and untested exam system that has been rejected by overseas countries and rejected by 80 percent of Post Primary Teachers Association teachers; if not, can he explain himself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022369da28a84174ba0900618746b709f83\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I assume that the Minister still assumes that giving that advice was the right thing to do. The National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) exam is something that he does not regret introducing. It is a system that ensures we gain information about the real learning of students. We know what they achieve and to what level, and that will serve this country in the 21st century a whole lot better than an exam system that allowed 50 percent though and 50 percent to fail and meant that we never knew what they knew, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d52f8f598a4044b4604779da63951d\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister clarify for the benefit of members of the House how schools are monitored for the quality of NCEA results and reporting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd9f443357e14bc0b3343f0ea4f82e25\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Schools are visited regularly by school relationship managers, who work closely with the schools to ensure consistency of standards. There is also regular moderation of internal assessment. Moderation means that results in one school are checked with other schools\u2019 results so that a consistent national standard is maintained. This new approach means there is actually more national consistency of standards than there was under the old School Certificate, Sixth Form Certificate, and bursary system. The quality of the NCEA system is backed by the Principals Council chairperson, Don McLeod, who said: \u201CNCEA can provide far richer diagnostic assessment information than the old School Certificate system could, and still mark the level of achievement of any given student so that employers can see what they have in front of them in a job application.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254c30e00c41b4203b7c7ddc737d5ee07\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority report into Cambridge High School says that the credit recovery room had been operating for 2 years, and is he aware that during that time the school would have received probably over a dozen visits from various educational agencies, and what does that say about their competence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225926dad6853f473e815e7f4d4db4b4a8\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am afraid, answering on behalf of the Minister, I cannot confirm the exact details of the number of visits but I do know there were visits and I do know that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has made it clear that this particular activity within the school was actively hidden from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022562152666113472ea1047f86994ea209\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that under a standards-based assessment system it is theoretically possible and ideally desirable for all schools to have 100 percent pass rates and that the issue is not about percentage pass rates but about the number of breaches of the law that had to occur to enable Bill English to have those scripts in this House today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b3af0e874ad4181b29d5176fdb38e2a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm the first part. A standards-based system is, of course, one where we would hope that people achieve standards, and if they get to 100 percent, then that would be a sign of the system working as well as any other sign within the system. On the second part of the question, yes I am looking forward to Mr English bringing his evidence to me. He makes a lot of claims here, and I am looking forward to seeing that evidence so I can find out how it was gained, what it says, and whether he has acted in a right and proper fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc12678f65c5466a8ded0fe384b9933c\u0022\u003EPolice\u2014Staffing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022951d2ae8793244c3b36175b17664c946\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does he consider the current resources and staffing levels of both sworn and non-sworn police to be adequate; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec6aa78ea1f443b2af540f4346bb7dc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec6aa78ea1f443b2af540f4346bb7dc1\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Generally, yes. We are funding over a billion dollars a year into policing, we are providing more staff and more and better resources, and the results say it all. Today the police commissioner announced the crime figures for the year ended June 2004. He said: \u201CThe drop in recorded crime this year equates to a decline in the crime rate of 6.5 percent per 10,000 head of population.\u201D He also said: \u201CThe continuing increase in the rate of resolved crime is also most encouraging, with the highest resolution rate\u201445.1 percent\u2014in 20 years.\u201D If we compare that result with what happened under National, which put money into a computer that did not work, cut staff numbers, and cut the police budget, we see we are doing a helluva lot better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b317972e3eaf4ada8d4ab6c39047a790\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Has there been a turn-round in the rate of crime in the most populated area of the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d184cef8a24416089995a6883925cda\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I again quote from the police commissioner: \u201CThe three Auckland districts\u2019 results reflect a major turn-around in the battle against crime in the most populated region of the country, and reflect good work in the past year. It also reflects the effort of making changes over the last 5 years.\u201D For example, in Counties-Manukau the crime rate has dropped 16.5 percent\u2014the biggest drop in the country\u2014in Auckland City the crime rate has dropped 11.8 percent, and in North Shore - Waitakere the crime rate has fallen 5.3 percent. That is good news from a good Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af0ef3d40a24c8da1977a24cb27ac96\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that if the Minister actually read the statistics that the police commissioner tabled today, he would know that petty crime has fallen because New Zealanders know the police do not respond to their concerns in that respect, and that under his stewardship of 5 years there has been, in fact, more crime, more violence, and more drug crimes than at any other time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6894e06e83046e4b303963a23629d26\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: One of the reasons why National never got on top of crime was that it had that sort of attitude. This Government is driving the rate of crime down. We are the most successful Government in a long while. The rate of crime is down to the level it was at the beginning of the 1980s\u2014way back to 1983. It has never been lower since that time. That member knows it, and I think he is a bit jealous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270fb3b76ab3848199fe8115395671f78\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to the claims made in the latest Police News that police numbers in Auckland have increased by only 1 percent over the last 4 years, while the population has grown by 9 percent, and that \u201CSworn police numbers are failing to keep pace with the city\u2019s growth.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed792999c804d49b9539967bc03907a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The results show it all. Those comments are not correct, and I think the Police Association intends correcting the matter in the next issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efd7cb8534394000a313a78320975745\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it is a good thing or a bad thing that methamphetamine convictions have increased because the police are de-emphasising cannabis offences, as suggested by the crime statistics released by the police today; and does he agree that the police are taking a sensible lead on this issue while this Parliament does nothing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233368e8b698046999861b620f2b48730\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very unusual interpretation of what the crime statistics say. I do not know why the member thinks that. I think the fewer people smoking marijuana and the fewer using methamphetamine, the better. The police are really getting on top of it because they are being well resourced and, of course, supported by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f005c305ef84c01ba5528bf1d7b4033\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why will this Government not tell the people of New Zealand that in the past year, under this Minister\u2019s stewardship, there has been an almost 30 percent increase in methamphetamine-related crime, which has gone hand in glove with increases in grievous assaults and serious assaults?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b90e7bfad164ecc86d3e27d781bf721\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That member must realise that when one focuses on methamphetamine, when one puts more pressure on, the better the results and the greater the number of people caught. National would interpret the figures as meaning that the less one does, the better the result. We do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220df9e77b170442e492e97e3cd43f7116\u0022\u003EPrimary Health Organisations\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670e09d6cb3544e6b873bc08a5624489\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: When she stated to the House on 24 August 2004, in relation to interim-funded primary health organisations, that: \u201CAfter all, the Government has not put any additional money in for them,\u201D what did she mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2a18d57f31947ca96d071a967fb6167\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2a18d57f31947ca96d071a967fb6167\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E My comment referred to the fact that for interim-funded primary health organisations, additional funding to reduce fees is being phased in over time. Currently, interim primary health organisations are funded for children under 18 and people aged 65 and over. As yet, no additional funding is provided for the remaining age groups enrolled in interim-funded primary health organisations. This means that people from the ages of 18 to 64 who are enrolled in an interim-funded primary health organisation pay the full fee charged by their general practitioner, unless they have acommunity services card, a high use health card, or are part of Care Plus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299e9afeb06b84a75899ea051fb76cac8\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister refers to \u201Cadditional funding\u201D is that funding in addition to the $4 million allocated to establish primary health organisations in preference to family general practitioners, is it in addition to the additional funding she trumpeted, on 1 October 2003, that interim primary health organisations would receive, or is it in addition to her $2 million advertising spree on the virtues of primary health organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f57f6e8aa16416abccb7551e61fdb10\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked three questions. The Minister may respond to two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c81b23c50e8450ab1fbf478fdc471e3\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member is wrong. We have not spent $411 million establishing primary health organisations. We have put money in that goes to the patient\u2014very little of it is used to establish primary health organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ed5d8833dfb463398c2b9015c165a1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I made this point at the very beginning of question time today when you gave the ruling. You just said, with regard to the last questioner, that she had asked three questions and the Minister can answer two. You see my point, do you not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b385b5c6aa74a54b838f6501399557e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may answer. I did not say she must answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba67396cf154562a85dd0b7a96899e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221170a088dd9e472099f88aa323f95b80\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to clarify something with the Minister. Did she say $410 million? Because I said $4 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d49c889f06c746beb3f2eaef704efffd\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the member said $411 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a9eb5dcb1a3459c92815136af1133a1\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: No, I said $4 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed1289046b84d5ca41f2006a154a40d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps she would like to repeat the question because I heard $411 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f2d05b62cda452993496636d0688608\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I heard the question from the member and she definitely said $4 million. Perhaps the Minister might like to comment on the fact that the figure was $4 million, because I heard that figure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fef77df80d94965b0d8c0c5787838ec\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The extra additional money has not yet gone in for people who are in interim primary health organisations. That money has gone in for only the over-65s and that figure was $47 million. There has been no additional money for interim primary health organisations in the age groups that are not yet funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7ca4151deab476f9cf058f90c512442\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any comments that allege a 20 percent fee increase in the primary health organisation in Feilding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022392e6f37cef44b60bb1947e98b6ae3d2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Judith Collins made allegations in the House 2 days ago. She has failed to produce the evidence that there has been a 20 percent increase in the primary health organisation in Feilding, because there is no primary health organisation in Feilding. She can be excused for being confused. After all, very recently she called primary health organisations \u201Cpublic health organisations\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6a0afd437b411688e79b3b24e55174\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Government\u2019s stated intention that primary health organisations would comprise \u201Cmultidisciplinary teams of health professionals working together to deliver a range of health services\u201D, will the Government encourage primary health organisations to include registered complementary health practitioners in their multidisciplinary teams; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f3607b99c3648a6a0becf7235e33113\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There is absolutely nothing to stop registered complementary health practitioners from being part of primary health organisations. I have no doubt that over time we will see the integration of many more health providers in primary health organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a59857931df648dcb492a6f7ac39dae7\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: If, as the Minister says, the Government has not put additional money into interim public health organisations, and given that doctors around the country are reporting that half the primary health organisation administration money is being used to run their new governance boards, can she deny that she has forced doctors to increase fees in order to produce the same service, thus imposing more expensive doctors\u2019 visits on the millions of Kiwis enrolled in interim primary health organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250b5005eb54140da8c2e550c2917e5b4\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No. In fact, over 2 million New Zealanders have cheaper health care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae38dc92e9f4d19b78686d5985d8a28\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that ordinary New Zealanders might find her use of the term \u201Cno additional funding\u201D confusing, when she previously stated in a press release on 1 October 2003 that additional funding was available to interim primary health organisations for certain services that most New Zealanders would consider standard medical practice, like the promotion of health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb0eb14384c44e585290289ebd1ea02\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Every primary health organisation, whether access or interim, receives a very small amount of money for health promotion and disease prevention\u2014a very small amount. There has been no additional money put into interim primary health organisations for the age groups between 18 and 64. However, help is on the way, because this Government between now and 2007 will be putting in additional funding to ensure that every New Zealander will have affordable primary health care. Let me compare that with the fact that subsidised primary health care was removed by the National Party in 1991.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bac1a246a66a4ac5b7118715558f33a9\u0022\u003EElectricity\u2014Foreign Ownership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c81a92719eea41fb94f42874f65f5f8b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he have any concerns regarding foreign ownership of New Zealand\u2019s electricity distribution and provision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d620338527794db0b17064d0f936af7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d620338527794db0b17064d0f936af7f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E My primary concern is any lack of investment in electricity distribution and provision, rather than the ownership thereof being outside the Government sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ab8e62887d4248a44b9b8171fb00cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can the sale of key New Zealand electricity infrastructure possibly be in the national interest, when we have State-owned Meridian Energy calling for urgency in the upgrade of transmission and distribution lines at the same time as line companies are being sold off to foreigners\u2014whose concern, as we all well know from experience, is profit and not New Zealand\u2019s long-term energy needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa171302a84469292d34ee76debdbdc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The aim of any company in the New Zealand electricity business is to make a profit. Indeed, I think that would be a requirement of it under the Companies Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022130153949e024a108872d2c269b437c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Minister\u2019s view that it is sound economics for a company like Powerco, which has gone from a profit of $2 million a year to almost $20 million a year, to be taken from the ownership of the people of Taranaki and put in the hands of Australians; and what possible benefit can that have for the people of New Zealand, particularly the people of Tauranga, who have just had two power cuts while Powerco was very busy trying to sell itself rather than running a proper business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224218b7a47449468991add2040735f6bb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, the matter of any change in ownership of Powerco is likely to come before me for approval, under the Overseas Investment Act. Therefore, I am not prepared to comment further at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022180a83a2cb974eeeb1cd32c92560fad4\u0022\u003EPrisoners\u2014Human Rights\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6c87ba66b1e40efacfcefc900bb6192\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he agree that imprisonment, and further disciplinary action that occurs within prison, is a justified limitation on human rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed0f9db35d2415ea9e65f87d719a0a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed0f9db35d2415ea9e65f87d719a0a0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Imprisonment, by its very nature, is a limitation on the rights ordinarily enjoyed by citizens. It is justifiable both as a protection for the safety of society and a punishment for serious offences committed by offenders against others. The nature of imprisonment and disciplinary action must, however, be lawful and meet the standards set out in the legislation passed by this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272963d5bed9f47c9b2a0221c61f7e387\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the law allow a prison inmate like Christopher Taunoa to be compensated by a $240,000 payout because his human rights were supposedly temporarily breached in prison, when he permanently severed the human rights of his victim with an ear-to-ear, foot-long cut to his victim\u2019s throat\u2014so deep it went through to his spinal cord?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218fc8bf512944205ba657643aad5ba69\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: As the judge has not ruled on claims for compensation, it is premature, and in any case inappropriate, to speculate on his likely decision. However, I can quote from the Dominion Post this morning, which reported the judge himself as suggesting that: \u201C\u2026 an earlier court declaration that the prisoners\u2019 rights under the Bill of Rights Act had been breached was enough in itself.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad4a96c63f140c6ad830881600f2092\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: In the case taken to the High Court against the detention of inmates on the behaviour modification regime, did the judge find that the regime involved a serious breach of human rights involving torture and severe mental suffering, as had been alleged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f987b7b5cb44426aa090c0a37383bb2d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That certainly had been alleged by the inmates themselves and their counsel, but Justice Young rejected any breach of section 9 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act as having occurred. He did not uphold any specific allegations that the conditions amounted to psychological torture or cruel, degrading, or disproportionately severe treatment. He said there had been no credible evidence of severe mental suffering, but he did find that there had been lesser breaches under section 23(5) of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad5fd04c759042c9985f00a49309360d\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that, aside from the actual denial of liberty, prisons need to have additional sanctions open to them to discipline prisoners such as Christopher Taunoa, who was described by guards as being the most difficult and disruptive inmate they had ever encountered, and that such alleged breaches of human rights are sometimes necessary if prisons are to maintain any sense of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022334bbf46eff3401893fba9299164980e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I most certainly do agree that there needs to be forms of discipline in prisons against recalcitrant prisoners, and the person mentioned by the member was certainly one of those prisoners. However, those sanctions and that discipline obviously need to be within the rules set by this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b206feec59f4e13979a1382e27d7947\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Will the court\u2019s decision of 7 April this year on the Crown\u2019s liability arising out of the behaviour modification regime be appealed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224350f492636c485aba34af934eac355c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. In fact, an appeal has already been filed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223123a302df104262a2cedf1470ee23fb\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned by the potential flood of hundreds of cases, if those four violent prisoners are compensated for time spent in solitary confinement; and does he agree that this sets a ridiculous precedent, whereby inmates may engage in violent and disruptive behaviour on purpose just so they can be rewarded with six-figure payouts later on; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3854504cb7f4a699e8f5d3d22977556\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not believe that a precedent will be set\u2014and it will most certainly not be set if the forms of discipline and sanctions imposed within the prison regime are within the Penal Institutions Act of 1954, which was used in this particular case. Another reason why inmates will not be inclined to do this\u2014as there will be no financial incentive for them to do so\u2014is if this House reforms the law so that the first call on any damages given to any prisoner who is wronged goes to the victims the offender has wronged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8e0117013a049ff959dc3b19cabeb4c\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that if prisons are not able to impose further disciplinary actions on inmates, then such an absence of boundaries will have a detrimental effect on their potential rehabilitation, particularly in the case of those who are not willing to take responsibility for their actions in the first place, like Christopher Taunoa, who protests his innocence on all counts and claims he is not a violent person, despite evidence to the contrary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221647740ce67148d480358c961256e681\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There is most certainly evidence to the contrary of that inmate\u2019s wrong claims. There are sanctions within prisons; there is also discipline within prisons, but it has to be applied within the rules that are there and are of long standing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac3bb4b52dee4e8d91b6ac79844be408\u0022\u003EWorking for Families Package\u2014Eligibility\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8bde401a7a14980aa86f953351e68c4\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his answer to written question No. 8943(2004), which indicates that by 2007, 50 percent of people receiving the accommodation supplement as a result of the Government\u2019s Working for Families package will be single people with no dependent children; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022975931760fa94562bc06b5ee4952d789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022975931760fa94562bc06b5ee4952d789\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E As the member knows because I have already sent him a revised answer to the question, the answer is no. Officials had not included in their original answer the effects of changes to eligibility as a result of the Working for Families package, and had not indicated that fact to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022048ad8444d0044ab885c11b8c8c7f383\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What reasons would lead the Minister to believe that it is fair and logical that in 2007, 150 single people with no dependent children, and earning between and $40,000 and $80,000 a year, will receive the accommodation supplement under the Government\u2019s Working for Families package, while at the same time 88 percent of the families earning between $25,000 and $45,000 a year will receive not 1c towards their accommodation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe785caadc04741923e19c6c70eed6d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Of the number of families that the member refers to, my calculation is that roughly one half of 1 percent\u2014no, less than that; a good deal less than that\u2014of those are receiving the accommodation supplement. No doubt they are people with extremely high accommodation costs, presumably primarily in the central Auckland area. The accommodation supplement is based on the system brought into place by the previous National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bec2b32b3bf48bab77129a2fcab6927\u0022\u003EJanet Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Who benefits from the Working for Families package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5f341bb6eb84cd1951bf315a5474fad\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Working for Families package puts more money in the pockets of nearly 300,000 low and middle income families, and that will total about $1.1 billion a year at its full implementation. The accommodation assistance part of that package is a little under one-seventh of the total.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226259f9b1b68447248df60ce34f9f5ae3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of benefits, can the Minister confirm that there are 900,000 New Zealanders in total on welfare benefits, superannuation, accident compensation, and student allowances, and that there will be 150,000 working families getting family credits, which makes over a million New Zealanders who are hooked into full or partial Government support, and does he think it is a good outcome to have one in three adults dependent on the State for their income?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221debdd0a6b9b4276a6cc098d96655300\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member himself noted, nearly half of that total number are superannuitants. Perhaps it is ACT\u2019s policy to have incentives for work for those who are 85 or 95 years old, but it is not the policy of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9fa7dee9ec047018e65d5a91bc208fa\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What are the exact criteria that allow the 150 single people with no dependent children, who earn between $40,000 and $80,000 a year, to get an accommodation supplement under the Government\u2019s Working for Families package, while thousands of low-income families in New Zealand will miss out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3fefa715ab461386910a255894c5fe\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Like all targeted mechanisms, they are based on need. The primary criteria for the accommodation supplement were developed under the National Government in the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5ae503a4ca46aabda03e5362cb3efc\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government\u2019s Working for Families fact sheet No. 3 state that 15,000 extra people will get the accommodation supplement, when, in fact, the Minister\u2019s own answers to my office state that around one-third of that number will get it; and why will half of the $478 million that will be spent on the Working for Families package accommodation supplement in the next 3 and a bit years be given to people with no children, who are single, and who earn up to $80,000 per year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a90e2ff29414885b9c26156cf308ace\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That was a very long question, and I will try to give a short answer. As the member said, only 150 families come into that new group of \u201Csuper-rich\u201D\u2014as he outlined in National Party terms\u2014earning about $40,000 or $50,000 a year. I note that that income is well under that of the top tax rate, which we are usually told is being imposed on people with very modest incomes. The vast bulk of people receiving the supplement are people on very low incomes, but to qualify for that supplement they must have a very high level of rental. The single people he refers to include a wide range of people, including single superannuitants. If the member wants to attack little old ladies, let him go and do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb74b01a44d4750be4c3baa85f112f0\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What is the right answer, in terms of the percentage of the Working for Families package that will go to those New Zealanders who are on benefits, as opposed to those who are working: the 33 percent number that the Minister talked about around Budget day, the 40-odd percent number that the Minister actually rolled out some days after he was challenged on that, or the numbers that look as though they could be in excess of that from all the answers he has sent to my office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabdcca87d754dfaa20419d68c40d3a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The accurate answer is around 40 percent. I also tell the member that of the 21,600 families and people who will be eligible for accommodation\u2014[Interruption] I tell Dr Smith that I have already answered that, if he had bothered to listen. Of the additional 21,600 people who will be eligible for the accommodation supplement as a result of the eligibility changes, 14,900 are families with children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002283990460efdb490e93c92a19e4461a80\u0022\u003EBurglaries\u2014Counties-Manukau, Resolution\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6fb2648d827458c8cae4e150b28b612\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What has been the average time taken to attend burglary complaints in Counties-Manukau in the 6 months to June 2004, and what was the longest time taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00227e23045be00d4095ba0dde98d5d059a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e23045be00d4095ba0dde98d5d059a5\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the average response time is 20 hours and 51 minutes. Because of the way the information relating to the other part of the question is stored, I am not able to supply that at the moment, but I will give a copy to the member as soon as it is available. I remind the House that burglary responses are often arranged at the convenience of the victim. Burglaries in the Counties-Manukau district have dropped from 9,069 in 2002-03 to only 8,006 this year, a drop of 1,063 burglaries. That is pretty good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225547b43d5aec43ff8739a5ab5da25f47\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question had two parts to it: the average time and longest time. I do not think the Minister answered the second part about the longest time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a47061688c904f518f458e8a4a2af9ca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do. The Minister said he would give the member some more information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd7b536bd13478c8bb952b2ed095058\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Is the slowing of the response time to burglaries over the last 3 years in nine out of the 12 police districts around New Zealand due to the fact that experienced senior police officers have been forced away from investigating crime in order to issue traffic tickets, or is it because the police have been tied up in dealing with the 14 percent rise in violent crime since he has been Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d82aee15f08472ca6667c8783e836dc\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Neither.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eae16105a60475abaf1baa63846ee69\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What other information does the Minister have on crime in Counties-Manukau since the 2001-02 fiscal year, and does the Minister have any comment on police work in general?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d226c176e8411bb6810833cb4cdb43\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first part of the question can be answered, and the second part may be briefly commented on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab0e856433d8423989416bc7ba984acd\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There has been a huge drop in the number of burglaries, a drop in theft from 13,400 cases to 11,495, a drop in violent crime from 6,167 cases to 5,337, and a drop in overall dishonesty from 29,885 cases to 27,295. The police in New Zealand are doing a good job, and I think all members should congratulate them on the work they are doing, rather than give them the bagging that has gone on over the last 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2f4605a2cf4310b776e02021186779\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s response to the complaint from the Commissioner of Police that his strategy of directing the majority of newly funded sworn staff into traffic policing has eroded the flexibility historically available to the commissioner to sort out problem areas as they emerge; and has that not resulted in delays in the police investigating burglaries in nine out of the 12 police districts while the number of traffic tickets issued has trebled, outperforming all the police\u2019s performance targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225076d5908ed54dcc8cadcfdeb6e5809a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The commissioner sets the policy of where he will send new staff; I have nothing to do with that. I think the member should look at the facts. Road policing is being well done, and today\u2019s crime stats show that policing is being done well across the country. General crime is down, and our roads are generally safer. That member should thank the police, rather than bag them as she always does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ea3787d38f84bd495dbbe67b726b3b6\u0022\u003ETourism Strategy 2010\u2014Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bea95f4e28a4195b7e0c936cda8158c\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Tourism: What announcements has he made this week concerning the implementation of the New Zealand Tourism Strategy 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2fc2632b4364beb9cade41c5d4d7820\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2fc2632b4364beb9cade41c5d4d7820\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E This week, at the New Zealand Tourism Conference, I announced a number of initiatives developed out of recommendations of the strategy. These included a postgraduate tourism research scholarship fund; $1.4 million over 3 years towards a major tourism yield research programme, in partnership with the Tourism Industry Association and Lincoln University; and funding towards the promotion and utilisation of the Tourism Planning Toolkit, in partnership with Local Government New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221251143ba19c4f9abc4497734e940bf2\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What have been the key factors contributing to the successful implementation of the strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb51669646ab4b648d70eb896fb61998\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As with the development of the strategy itself, the success of its implementation has reflected the extent to which this Government has worked with key sector interests, including the Tourism Industry Association, Local Government New Zealand, Tourism New Zealand, education and training providers, and key operators such as the Hotel Council and the Inbound Tour Operators Council of New Zealand, to effect positive working relationships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1b07714be5348f2b6afbcb802690856\u0022\u003EAquaculture Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f50f2d950ef4ef5a7671a2fbd6584a1\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022f91152fa65f44041a229f30eef23a2f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f91152fa65f44041a229f30eef23a2f0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Aquaculture Reform Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I will move that the bill be referred to the Primary Production Committee with an instruction that the committee present its final report on or before 29 November 2004, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and to meet outside Wellington during a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 191, 193(a), and 194(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe Aquaculture Reform Bill amends the Resource Management Act, and the Fisheries Acts of 1983 and 1996, to secure a sustainable future for New Zealand\u2019s aquaculture industry. It addresses shortcomings in the poorly integrated coastal planning, aquaculture, and fisheries management regimes. The bill balances economic development, environmental sustainability, treaty obligations, and community concerns. The Government recognised that the current dual regimes under the Resource Management Act and the Fisheries Acts were producing an overload of marine farming applications, leading to higher processing costs, delays, and poor environmental results. Prior to the aquaculture moratorium, people could apply for space in almost any part of the coastal marine area, and there was no limit on the amount of space that they could apply for. In the late 1990s, demand for space increased fivefold. That placed enormous pressure on councils and communities to cope with the volume of applications. The bill will enable councils to look at all the sustainability issues related to aquaculture, and therefore they will be better able to deal with all of its effects on the environment and to assist the aquaculture industry to develop in a sustainable way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EUnder the reforms, new aquaculture can take place only in aquaculture management areas, which regional councils will implement through their coastal plans. Councils will be able to manage demand for space in a controlled way. The bill introduces greater flexibility in creating aquaculture management areas. In addition to the normal council planning process, the industry may initiate and fund a facilitated private plan change, and, if successful, it will have preferential allocation of that space. As aquaculture management areas will be created by the plan change process, affected parties and the public will continue to have a say about where aquaculture should be allowed to take place. The bill also gives regional councils the ability to manage the allocation of coastal space, rather than having to process all applications on a \u201Cfirst come, first served\u201D basis. Unoccupied space in aquaculture management areas will be tendered unless the regional coastal plan provides otherwise. Tender income will be shared between the Crown and the relevant regional council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides iwi with, where possible, the allocation of an area equivalent to 20 percent of the total marine farming space allocated since 1992, and of 20 percent of any new marine farming space within a particular region. That would include 20 percent of any new space generated through an industry-initiated private plan change. That proposal represents a sound basis for M\u0101ori and the marine farming sector to move forward. We have aligned the aquaculture settlement with the 1992 fisheries deed of settlement\u2014aquaculture being clearly the unfinished business of that 1992 settlement. This proposal is a full and final settlement of M\u0101ori claims to commercial marine farming space post - September 1992. That is an important step. Settling contemporary commercial claims removes a major impediment to progress and certainty. It will also allow M\u0101ori to continue to be a major contributor to the development of the aquaculture industry. In order to obtain space equivalent to 20 percent of the space already allocated since 1992, the Crown will look to achieve the goal by providing new space if it is available. The Crown may purchase space currently being used for marine farming on a \u201Cwilling buyer, willing seller\u201D basis. If that is not possible, the financial equivalent may be provided to M\u0101ori. In addition, any marine farming space provided to iwi would be subject to all general Resource Management Act requirements. Initially, the marine farming space allocated to M\u0101ori would be provided to Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd, to hold for direct allocation to iwi\u2014those same iwi that were entitled to receive an allocation of inshore fisheries quota under the 1992 deed of settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe aquaculture industry needs to know what the bill will mean for it. Existing farms already under a Resource Management Act regime will continue for the life of their coastal permits. The bill contains transitional provisions to move the existing marine farming authorisations granted under the Fisheries Acts or the Marine Farming Act into the new regime. Marine Farming Act farms will have Resource Management Act consents for 20 years with one right of extension at the end, provided the farm remains in an aquaculture management area. Marine farms with existing coastal permits to occupy space will be deemed to be aquaculture management areas for the types of aquaculture activities authorised by the permit, unless that area is identified in the plan or proposed plan as being unsuitable for aquaculture. Marine farmers will no longer require a marine farming permit under the Fisheries Act 1983. They will simply be required to be registered as fish farmers under the Fisheries Act 1996 for the purposes of record-keeping and product-tracking, and their activity will be managed through the coastal permit issued under the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe industry has told us that the current \u201Cfirst come, first served\u201D approach for allocating aquaculture space is not the best option when a resource consent expires. Now when a marine farm resource consent expires, provided it is still within an aquaculture management area and the proposed marine-farming operation will be substantially the same, the incumbent\u2019s application will be considered first, if he or she meets specified criteria. Those criteria include complying with the regional coastal plan, showing a good track record in meeting consent conditions, and whether the marine farm demonstrates current industry good practice. That mechanism appropriately recognises a reasonable expectation of commercial certainty for operators, but for the avoidance of any possible doubt I state clearly that the procedure in no way confers occupation rights in perpetuity over public space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThis bill provides for the sustainable growth of the aquaculture industry in our country. Once this bill is passed, the temporary national aquaculture moratorium and the local moratoria in Tasman Bay, Southland, and the Firth of Thames that have been in place since 1984 can be lifted. The bill needs to be passed no later than the last sitting day of 2004, so that the legislation is in force before those moratoria expire. In the last few months we have made extraordinary progress in getting to this point, and that is in no small way thanks to the efforts of my predecessor, the Hon Pete Hodgson, the work done under great pressure by staff from the Ministry of Fisheries and the Ministry for the Environment, and the advice, cooperation, and goodwill from representatives of the industry and of local government. I am confident that that pattern of behaviour will continue for the benefit of all New Zealanders, and that the latent potential of the aquaculture industries will be available to our communities. It is with a considerable degree of pleasure that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00227f91466898054689a7639ea9bfe946e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f91466898054689a7639ea9bfe946e3\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E It will be no surprise to the House that National will oppose this bill, simply because of all the foolishness that we have seen over the last 3 years. In fact, the National Party believes that the aquaculture industry is the most polite and patient sector in this country. We in the National Party cannot believe the amount of garbage that the sector has had to put up with in the last 3 years. Firstly, it accepted a moratorium extension upon a moratorium extension, and kindly said that it guessed the process would take a long time, but that it hoped the Government would get things right. My concern, and I know this is the private concern of the sector, is that this Government sees moratoriums as a solution, not as a means to an end. That is why the Government put one in, why it extended it, and why the Minister is panicking about not getting this bill through the House by the end of this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe second reason we believe that the aquaculturists are the most polite and patient sector in the country is that they are standing back and getting kicked around while the Government passes off 20 percent of the aquaculture space to M\u0101ori, in order to do a deal over the seabed and foreshore issue. If the Labour Government does not believe that M\u0101ori own the seabed and foreshore, why is it giving them 20 percent of that space? If Labour believes that M\u0101ori own the seabed and foreshore, why does it not give them 100 percent of the aquaculture space? The Minister should come clean on his deal to try to keep the Labour Party\u2019s fractious relationship with M\u0101ori sweet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe third issue that aquaculturists have taken on the chin is the Minister\u2019s intention to put mussel spat into the quota management system, regardless of the bureaucracy and the absurdity of having it in that system. Even though when mussel spat washes up on Ninety Mile Beach it dies, this Minister is to put it into the quota management system. The poor old aquaculturists will then have to deal with a bureaucracy and a monopoly just to deal with mussel spat, let alone with their mussel farms and the regulations that relate to marketing and selling overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe fourth issue that aquaculturists have had to put up with in the last few years is that they have had to wait patiently, and then watch and wait some more, while applications that are going through the permitting process take years upon years, even though the Minister claims he has given increased resources for that process. This new Minister of Fisheries does not realise that in the business environment, marketing decisions often have to be made in weeks, not months, and that expansion plans have to be executed in months, not years. For the Minister to have over 200 permit applications build up in the permitting process over the last few years is absolutely appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational knows that the issue of perpetuity is of particular concern to the aquaculture industry. It wants certainty and sanctity of property rights. When aquaculturists put in a marine farm they want to know that when the consent comes up for renewal in 35 years, if the area is still to be one that has aquaculture they will be the people who farm that area, and a new fly-by-nighter cannot come in and take their place. This Government is running roughshod over that whole concept. National absolutely supports a first right of refusal. We do not support a right of renewal, or a right in perpetuity\u2014not at all\u2014but we support a first right of refusal. An incumbent should have priority over a newcomer, due to his or her pre-existing investment. That is usual in business, as it provides certainty. A marine farmer who is already established and who is a good tenant should not have to have his or her space taken over by a fly-by-nighter because there is no right of refusal. We are very suspicious about the Minister\u2019s clauses in this bill that state that at the expiry of a consent, an incumbent\u2019s application will be considered first if he or she meets certain criteria. What does that mean? What are the criteria? Well, I can tell members that right now hundreds of bureaucrats are dreaming up the criteria that aquaculturists will have to face just to remain as incumbents in an area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational says this: incumbents should have the first right of refusal and should get the space if they are good tenants. If they have been good tenants on a marine farm and their consent comes up for renewal, they should get the space. If they have been bad tenants there should be a question mark over that. But this Minister says that Labour will consider a right of first refusal as long as incumbents meet certain criteria, which the bureaucrats are dreaming up at this moment, as we speak. There will be lists, and one of the criteria will be whether someone is M\u0101ori. The issue will be the iwi the person belongs to, and whether the person can trace his or her ancestry back somehow to M\u0101ui. That is what the criteria will be, because this Government wants to throw aquaculture space at M\u0101ori in order to do a deal over the foreshore and seabed issue. That is absolutely appalling. When it comes to the first right of refusal, National says that an incumbent should have that right, and should get the space if he or she has been a good tenant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe have been quite perplexed\u2014and I know this has perplexed aquaculturists around the country and New Zealand in general\u2014as to why M\u0101ori should get 20 percent of the marine space for free, as of right. I have the deed of settlement here for the claim by Ng\u0101ti Tama. It is interesting that that deed of settlement states that should tendering for coastal space occur, Ng\u0101ti Tama will have the preferential right to apply for 10 percent of the area.\u201D So Ng\u0101ti Tama will get 20 percent, and will have the preferential right to get another 10 percent. Here is the deed of settlement for Ng\u0101ti Awa, which includes a provision that the Minister will give Ng\u0101ti Awa a preferential right to purchase up to 5 percent of the marine space. So Ng\u0101ti Awa will get 20 percent for free and will be allowed a preferential right to another 5 percent. Ng\u0101ti Ruanui in the Taranaki will get a preferential right to tender for an unspecified part of the aquacultural space, without that being defined. It is open-ended, so Ng\u0101ti Ruanui will get 20 percent and however much more it wants. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277d089645e94ae4ba57172d23f15f38\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but I just say to Government members that interjections should be rare, reasonable, and relevant. The Speaker will not allow a speaker to be drowned out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228691dffaf8b4410391cdc474d590960b\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour Minister was asking who negotiated those settlements, and he was accusing National of having done that. Well, here is one that was done in 2000; it is the Ng\u0101 Rauru K\u012Btahi settlement. Ng\u0101ti Ruanui was done in 2001, so that was under the Labour Government. Labour gave 5 percent of the marine space in 2000 to Ng\u0101ti Awa and another 20 percent today. And, of course, the Ng\u0101ti Tama deed of settlement was finished off by the Labour Government, because it was post-1999. Ng\u0101ti Tama got 10 percent of the marine space, and is getting another 20 percent today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori already have 43 percent of the aquaculture space throughout the industry. So when M\u0101ori go to Labour and say they own the foreshore and seabed, they are just about dead right. They do own it, because they have close to 50 percent of the aquaculture space across this country as it is, before the Minister gives them another 20 percent for free, in order to do a deal over the foreshore and seabed issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f18e2055b1454c13a03d67af3c047804\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f18e2055b1454c13a03d67af3c047804\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Associate Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I want to give the member who just resumed his seat a limited history lesson, because those members on that side of the House suffer from either selective dementia or amnesia\u2014or both. The member who resumed his seat\u2014I cannot recall his name, but I do believe that he represents the area of Whangarei\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52660f47e00453699bc68621bc10306\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Very well!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c80c268a21d341a1a28940e8b47a7d8f\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he is really appreciated up there. He has a new name; he is called \u201CWes\u201D. They say \u201CWes the member?\u201D. Here is the history lesson for that member. There was once a Minister of Justice and Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations called Douglas Montrose Graham. He was a senior member in the Cabinet of a National Government. That particular Minister of a National Government set in place the precedents that we have enshrined in this House in a range of agreements with M\u0101ori people over settlement processes. When this House of great honour sets in place constitutional engagements by way of documents settled in the name of the Crown, as with those with M\u0101ori, we do not destroy them lightly and we do not walk away from them lightly. I tell that member to recall very quickly who set those precedents in place. Who set those parameters in place? Who set those constitutional conventions\u2014not just conventions but statutes\u2014in place? It was a National Government that set those parameters in place. They are the bedrock of our constitution, as any property right is. We do not, in any circumstances, err from those precedents. The Clerk of the House, time after time, has given select committees a clear steer that we do not change those agreements, which have been contracted for, and negotiated by, the executive. Those agreements are, in fact, a lot like international arrangements. Rather than my putting words into the mouth of the Clerk of the House, I would opine that they go very close to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EOnce, in 1992, in the dead of the night\u2014for the benefit of that member from Whangarei\u2014a number of M\u0101ori, without consultation and without mandate, were called into the parliamentary offices of the Prime Minister, Jim Bolger, and the Hon Douglas Montrose Graham, and they signed the \u201CTreaty of Wellington\u201D, also known as the Sealord\u2019s deal. This history lesson needs to be carefully engraved in the minds and the memory of those on the other side of the House who suffer from selective dementia and/or amnesia. The reality is that in 1992, when M\u0101ori won at the Court of Appeal the right to uphold their property rights, and injuncted the roll-out of a world-leading quota management system, they were set to negotiate with the Crown. Under a National Party Government, the Crown set in place the following precedents. In light of M\u0101ori giving up their rights to customary commercial fishing rights, the Sealord\u2019s deal was settled, without negotiation, consultation, or mandate\u2014no h\u012Bkoi, no mandate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe member should reflect on the fact that the issue of aquaculture was raised in those negotiations. Douglas Montrose Graham and the Prime Minister of the country at that time indicated that they would not settle in terms of aquaculture, for the reason that it was not even in a policy scope at that particular point in time. It was not even able to be addressed or negotiated, because it was still in the germane, early stage. As usual with the National Party, when the going gets tough it kicks for touch. When the going got tough, whether on Securities Commission law, telecommunications law, electricity, or transport, it stuffs it up, and on this particular issue it did not finish the job. Once again, a Labour Government has had to finish unfinished business. The precedents are in place. The parameters have been driven into the bedrock of our constitution, and members opposite did that. They were in the executive and were part of a caucus that signed off on them. I am sick and tired of M\u0101ori people being the meat in the sandwich, and being the fodder of the National Party at the moment. The member for Whangarei is missing in his constituency, his leader is missing from here day after day, and we have to wear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EWith this legislation we are giving the aquaculture industry certainty for a time. We are giving the industry stability and direction. No doubt the Primary Production Committee will look at the legislation. The Primary Production Committee is a fine committee\u2014for the most part; I do not want to mislead the House. Apart from the National Party members, who do not really contribute, its members are a wonderful bunch of people from whom we will get a right result. We look forward to this legislation being engaged with by the communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI conclude by stating quite carefully and clearly that Douglas Montrose Graham set the parameter at 20 percent of new quota stock. Douglas Montrose Graham, Jim Bolger, and all his mates in that National Party Government set those parameters. We are merely concluding unfinished business in terms of the deal, and this measure is the best form of closure. It gives great solidity and sustainability. I commend the bill to the select committee and to the communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI finally conclude by noting and stating quite carefully and clearly that I am grateful for the work the officials put into the very tiresome and onerous task of bringing certainty and closure to this issue. I also acknowledge the work of two very fine Cabinet Ministers and colleagues. They are Ministers Pete Hodgson and David Benson-Pope, who herald from the great Mainland, from the area of Dunedin. With that, I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b117e36378774c27a7ca8e421ffee984\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b117e36378774c27a7ca8e421ffee984\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will be supporting the Aquaculture Reform Bill, and in doing so we welcome the pending end of the moratorium. I agree with Mr Phil Heatley in one regard and that is that the aquaculture industry has been extremely patient. A moratorium has been imposed on it over past years, and that has been extremely frustrating. We know that the industry is grumpy about it. We also know and are concerned about the fact that the industry has been losing market share in markets\u2014particularly for green-lipped mussels\u2014that it had forged at great cost to itself. New Zealand First supports in all its forms an export-led economy. We believe that the aquaculture industry is perfect for New Zealand. We support the ability for the industry to get on with the job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe all know in our heart of hearts, although we do not say too much about it in this House, that our seas and oceans are being overfished. We know that from the evidence that comes before us. We know that from the multitude of overseas speakers who come to our land to speak about it. We know that many of the seas in the Northern Hemisphere are producing far, far less than they have done in times past. For the first time in our history we have the technology and the capacity to make species in our ocean extinct. While we can admire the efficiencies of the technology, and while the technology drives down food prices, there is no question that we are, to use a crude term, raping our oceans. Admittedly, the aquaculture industry is a small start, but it is a start to farming the foreshore\u2014a widely heard term nowadays\u2014in anticipation of our moving further afield and farming our oceans. The technology is not here to farm our oceans at this point, but we certainly have the technology to farm in the form of aquaculture, and we are doing that. I and New Zealand First believe that New Zealand is uniquely suited to this industry, because of our huge shoreline per capita of population. We will uniquely gain large benefit from the aquaculture industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EAs I said at the beginning, we welcome the fact that this legislation will end the moratorium on the moratorium. We look forward to this industry being able to march forward with more certainty. It is simply not fair that a stop has been put on an expanding industry. This industry has expected and has planned to extend its exports\u2014and I do not apologise for talking a lot about exports\u2014from the current level of approximately $300 million per year to in excess of $1 billion by the year 2020. That is the target the industry has laid out publicly, and we have no reason to believe that it will not achieve it. Unfortunately, with the moratorium one would have to say that that plan has been put back 3 years, but my faith in this industry is such that I believe that it will make that time up and will in fact achieve that target. That is good not just for the participants in this industry but for our whole country, and it is something that I believe, quite frankly, is good for our oceans, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EUnlike the National Party, we welcome the participation of M\u0101ori in this industry. I am not talking about the 20 percent quota necessarily; I am talking about the high percentage of M\u0101ori who are already, though their own endeavours and their own businesses, participating in this industry. We praise them for their foresight, and we praise their effort and their enterprise. So we are certainly not going to go around knocking the participation of M\u0101ori. In fact, New Zealand First does not believe that we should be in the business of differentiating between M\u0101ori and anybody else in New Zealand. Everybody should be helped to contribute to our wealth and our exports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EMy colleague Jim Peters will speak on a large aspect of this bill that touches on the Resource Management Act and local government. It is regional government that will be allocating public space for this industry to take place in, and he will be speaking about that. But I say to the House that we have had the moratorium for a reason, and that was to allow local government to get up to speed, to put in place aquaculture management areas, to do the planning, and to get ready for what was called, when the moratorium was put in place, a gold rush for those people who want to involve themselves in this industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is perhaps sad but true that everybody wants this industry but nobody wants it outside his or her kitchen window. To use an extreme example, I suggest to members that if space were allocated in Oriental Bay here in Wellington, outside the million-dollar apartments, there would be huge controversy, and it would not be, in the main, controversy caused by M\u0101ori. Aquaculture would be an inappropriate use of that particular part of our foreshore. So it is important, and it will be an ongoing concern of local government, to make sure that this industry is extended and proceeds in sympathy with our environment. We are for growth, but we are not for growth that ruins the environment, either in the way of despoiling the shoreline or in the way of visual pollution. As I said, aquaculture is certainly not something people want to see outside their kitchen window, in their favourite little bay. But we do not believe that that needs to be the case. We believe there are plenty of areas around our country for this activity. We are blessed with a large shoreline. We believe there are plenty of places where this activity can take place for the benefit of us all and to the detriment of virtually nobody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe look to the regional councils doing that sympathetically. It is their responsibility. They have the local knowledge. They are the closest to the people. They are the people who are on the job, and we look forward to their doing that. I would have liked to see all regional councils in a position to have aquaculture management areas in place and clearly defined. I think it is unfortunate that that is not yet the case. I guess there is some sympathy for the fact that they have been unwilling to move, in many cases, for fear of litigation. But we would like to have seen them have these aquaculture management areas in place before the moratorium was lifted. I hope, on behalf of New Zealand First, that as this bill goes through the select committee process the councils will see some finality for the moratorium, and that that will encourage them to stop mucking around and to get the job on the road, because this industry needs certainty so that it can get on with doing what it does best, and that is exporting and earning money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2ae2ce5e82a407e93580a9165560842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2ae2ce5e82a407e93580a9165560842\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens welcome and support the Aquaculture Reform Bill, but I have to say that we have grave concerns about the very short time period of 3 months allowed for the select committee to do its job. This is a big bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924097e10f9441bf8a66ee208c89a2d4\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 2 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b8c77911894212b9b0b6a608256d3d\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: 29 November? This is August; September, October, November\u20143 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d662d4849c654d4b9199fe0ec0af2541\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: And you have to call for submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e6bcf14f4564eaeb657d07083ba2e8c\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is part of it. This is a big bill with big issues and many stakeholders. There are complex issues of interface with the Resource Management Act. It is also a burden for small parties with few members who each have to cover a much wider range of issues than the large parties do, and where the inability of one member to be in the House for several weeks because he or she is hearing submissions at the select committee does place a real burden on the rest of the caucus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIf it were not for the fact that the moratorium is about to expire and we have to have legislation in place, I would be voting against the referral motion. The Government was well aware that the moratorium was going to expire and that the bill should have been in the House earlier than it has been, but given that it is not, I do not think we have much choice but to try to do it in those 3 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E Parliament has been waiting a long time for this legislation. When I first came here, at the end of 1996, the select committee I joined had previously considered a bill to try to deal with the complex issues of the interface between the Fisheries Act, the Marine Farming Act, and the Resource Management Act. The bill had been reported back to Parliament, and Parliament did not proceed with it. The committee I found myself on, then proceeded to consider it again, with some changes, and we reported back to Parliament; and again Parliament did not proceed. Now, finally, after many years we have a bill that deals with aquaculture properly, and I guess we all think that that is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt creates a single consent process under the Resource Management Act instead of the complex, overlapping permit systems under three different pieces of legislation. As well as streamlining the process for marine farmers, the bill also gives the opportunity for better environmental controls, by putting it clearly under regional councils. The environmental impacts of marine farming range from \u201Cnegligible\u201D for things like mussel farms, which simply catch the nutrients in the water that washes past them, to \u201Cquite significant\u201D for some forms of fin-fish marine farms, which have to be fed with 10 times their weight, caught from the wild fishery, and which are, in no sense, a substitute for depleting wild fisheries. But the impacts of each of those types of farming need to be dealt with properly under the Resource Management Act, and under Part 2 of the Resource Management Act, which makes it very clear that this legislation is about sustainable management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAquaculture is about a right to space, not about a right to fish. So it should be managed like rights to space on land, rather than like the Fisheries Act and the quota management system. So this is the right place to put aquaculture. As with land, consents are limited to 35 years, which is actually a long time; it is virtually a person\u2019s whole working-life. We cannot foresee the sorts of conditions that might pertain at the end of that period, and it is entirely appropriate that consents should expire at that time, and that renewal should be possible if it is still appropriate, and if the fisher has behaved according to the rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe have to keep in mind the fact that, unlike farming on land, marine farmers are using public space for private purposes. That is fine, because they are also contributing economic wealth and jobs to the community. But they should never think they have the same rights to that space, as a farmer who owns land; and they do owe the community appropriate behaviour and good management of that space, and concern for the activities of other users of coastal space with which they might come into conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Greens supported the imposition of the aquaculture moratorium because we were seeing a gold rush for marine space, with no proper controls. Regional councils had created some quite stupid inconsistencies in their coastal plans, and there was a need to get that sorted out before we allowed more applications to proceed. One particular inconsistency in my neck of the woods was the Hauraki Gulf in the Firth of Thames, where we have a line down the middle of the firth that separates Auckland region on the west side, from Waikato region on the Coromandel side. On the Coromandel side, Environment Waikato had set two very specific areas, saying: \u201CYou may have aquaculture within these two areas, but not elsewhere. You may have this large a farm, you may have this many of them, and here are the conditions.\u201D Just across the water on the other side, Auckland had said: \u201CYou can apply anywhere you like and we\u2019ll consider it on a case by case basis.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe have two major concerns about the legislation. Some councils still have no aquaculture management areas. The moratorium has been there all that time, and they have not stirred themselves and put the necessary plans in place. It is too much trouble or it is too expensive. So the Government has decided to allow them to be lazy, to allow them to not do their job, and to allow marine farmers to introduce private plan changes, which transfer the cost of the planning process away from the council and on to the marine farmer. Well, if the only people involved were the council and the applicants, that would be fine\u2014that is, the people who benefit from the decision picking up the cost, and it saves ratepayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EBut what about the third party to the hearing\u2014that is, the public? What about the people who have very strong feelings themselves about where, on their stretch of coast, in their favourite bay, it is appropriate to put marine farming structures, and where it is not? Instead of participating in a single process, whereby the council sets out a plan for its whole region and says: \u201CHere, here, and here, but not there.\u201D, they are now potentially going to have to take part in a series of processes whenever a marine farmer pops up and says: \u201CWe want this area designated as an aquaculture management area.\u201D They will have to go through a whole plan-change process, and then, a couple of months later, another farmer pops up and says: \u201CBy the way, we want this bit over here designated as an aquaculture management area.\u201D I can just see some of my friends out there, who have a real concern about their local environment, being run ragged trying to deal with all these different applications, and that is not fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe support strongly the 20 percent given to M\u0101ori. It is a logical sequence of the M\u0101ori fisheries settlement of 1992, but we are not in favour of allocation being left to Te Ohu Kai Moana. It is actually a cop-out. This is a very onerous task, as is evident if we look at how long it took in the initial fisheries allocation. This proposal could have been considered by the select committee that was considering the Maori Fisheries Bill. The committee could have put some allocation proposals in place before the bill continued, but that opportunity was denied to it. We do not think it is the function of Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd to do this work. It does not want to do it. The Government should establish an allocation process and take responsibility for its implementation. Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee does not believe that it is the Government\u2019s general dogsbody for managing the issues that are too hard. Nevertheless, we support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u00227791a3523ea542389d4fa27f93a830a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227791a3523ea542389d4fa27f93a830a4\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I hope it comes as no surprise to members of this House when I say that the ACT party will not be supporting this bill. I believe that people listening to Parliament will recognise that the Aquaculture Reform Bill is hugely important to New Zealand. But it comes down to the fact that this bill is more valuable to one section of our community as it is all about delivering to M\u0101ori. It is all about the cargo cult that has developed in this country under this Labour Government. It is a cult that says to one important section of our society that those people are more privileged than anybody else. It says: \u201CWe will constantly deliver to you those things that we will not deliver to the other 80 percent of the population of this country, but we will continue with this largesse and deliver whatever you want.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThat, really, was the reason the moratorium was imposed. We have had all sorts of red herrings from the Green Party, which said that the regional councils could not cope. I have plenty of documents to show that my regional council in Otago, for example, was almost begging the Government to let aquaculture go ahead. It had the coastal plans in place, it was right up with the game, and it has waited year after year for this to occur. It had to wait for the Government to do its negotiations and get this\u2014and I have to call it this\u2014racism in the form of this bill prepared. It is a bill that we will oppose because we oppose privilege. The ACT party opposes privilege to one or another section of our society. We oppose racism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b29c776c40848eabccb80755046a480\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s nose is growing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022940fd54349334eee8decbd474ed3d01e\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: It is quite interesting that the \u201Cmember for Billingsgate\u201D is speaking on this fisheries matter. It is quite appropriate for the fishwife.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebbc4ec79a7948c58fd343cc9b8ce869\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a personal reflection. The member will please carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224296ee1f2de44fb3b4b4d0fab86e310a\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: We oppose tribalism in the 21st century. Tribalism has devolved nothing to any community anywhere in the world, yet this bill perpetuates the myth of tribalism. That will not benefit M\u0101ori one iota. I challenge the Minister of Fisheries to stand in this House and tell me how a street kid in M\u0101ngere will benefit from this bill. He or she will not benefit in any way. If it did benefit any of those children who are living on the streets\u2014and sadly too many of them are M\u0101ori\u2014I would probably say that it is not a bad idea. But it will not. The M\u0101ori elite will benefit from this bill, not the street kids. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWe will oppose this bill on a constant basis because that Minister, David Benson-Pope, who has been in the job for long enough now, has put forward to this House bills that can only be described as dogs\u2019 breakfasts. We have had a 16-page Supplementary Order Paper on the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 3) because that Minister and his ministry get it so wrong. He does not know his job, and that is a great shame. I would predict confidently that the Primary Production Committee will do exactly the same with this Aquaculture Reform Bill as it did with the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 3), because this bill will not deliver to those people who want to get involved in this very vital, vibrant, and progressive industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI have heard figures quoted of up to $6 billion, potentially, in terms of wealth generation for this country from aquaculture. I am sure that the majority of people\u2014excepting the Greens, who would turn the whole of our coastal waters into some sort of glorified marine reserve if they could possibly get their way\u2014want to see this industry thrive. There is little doubt that the feral fishery throughout the world is in decline. The real future lies in aquaculture. That means ascribing guaranteed property rights to those who are engaged in this industry because of the need for very substantial sums of capital to be tied up in this. The concept of having secure rights to these coastal waters is absolutely vital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBut there is another aspect that causes me huge angst\u2014and I am sure the members of the select committee feel the same way\u2014and that is the involvement of the Department of Conservation in this bill. It appears, from my reading of it, that the new section 165O enables the Minister of Conservation to override a regional authority. It states: \u201CThe Governor-General may, by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the Minister, direct a regional council\u2014(a) not to proceed with a proposed allocation of space in a coastal marine area; or (b) in proceeding with a proposed allocation of space in a coastal marine area, to give effect to the matters specified in the Order in Council.\u201D That effectively gives the Minister of Conservation the power of veto. This House, and I am sure the public, knows full well that the Department of Conservation\u2014driven by the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society\u2014wants to have up to 20 percent of our coastal waters set aside as marine reserves. So when marine farmers want to get involved, they will face the same problems that those of us who are involved in land-based activities face on a constant basis\u2014appeal after appeal after appeal by the Department of Conservation. That is why it is absolutely vital that the Department of Conservation, and its advocacy role especially, is removed from the statute book. Its job is the management of its resource on behalf of the public; it is not to fight marine farmers or members of the farming community on land, on a constant basis and in using up vast resources of public money to fight the wealth creators of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022612f40ba86bf47f4b7eda689d8f0c5ac\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: To fill the coffers of the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220592045eaa034e60b221ab63b9ceefe0\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. The regional councils, as I said some time ago\u2014what was it; 3 years ago?\u2014said that they wanted to get on with the job. They had identified their aquaculture marine areas in which they wanted to get this industry up and running. So the opportunity cost to that industry\u2014and to the country\u2014is huge because, as I said earlier, this Government wants to pander yet again to M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThere was an excellent article in the Independent\u2014I think in Wednesday\u2019s edition. Tim Donoghue wrote an excellent article about how \u201CM\u0101ori strike gold in marine farms\u201D. Members will note that it is not about everybody striking gold, or about everybody being involved in that gold rush. The strike is specific, and that cargo cult, as I mentioned earlier, will be perpetuated yet again. That is of huge concern, I am sure, to many, many M\u0101ori as well, not just to those of us who do not agree with the concept of special privilege based on race. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBut I am also totally concerned about another issue, and I will read from Mr Donoghue\u2019s article: \u201CAlready there is a rift in Maoridom between local hapu, on the one side, and the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission (TOKM) on the other, about the allocation of future aquaculture marine areas \u2026\u201D. What will we see into the future? Will there be 20 years, as we have had, on the allocation of fish stocks by the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission? I cannot see that this bill will assist M\u0101ori, even when they get that 20 percent. The arguments will go on and on. It would have been far better to allocate areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EFor example, down in my neck of the woods, there are well-established M\u0101ori communities\u2014say, at Moeraki, at Karitane, and Waikouaiti. Those are areas, few would dispute, where M\u0101ori have natural assimilation or affiliation to the land, and they are perfectly entitled to those areas. But what we have in this bill is something of another natural disaster from an incompetent Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00223b8d573fd829483c9f9d6559a2e7fdb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b8d573fd829483c9f9d6559a2e7fdb6\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak on the first reading of this Aquaculture Reform Bill. United Future welcomes this bill being debated here for the first time in the House today. It is long overdue in being able to provide a way forward for the aquaculture industry. Earlier this year when United Future gave support for the extension of the moratorium, we made it absolutely clear that there had to be a bill in the House this year in order for provision to be made for the growth of the aquaculture industry before the expiration date of the moratorium, which is now set at December of this year. What is going on in the aquaculture industry is truly amazing, as is the way in which we are able to farm fish\u2014that is, both fin fish and shellfish: mussels, kina, p\u0101ua, and so on. As the honourable Gerald Eckhoff, the speaker before me, said, it really does offer us hope for the future in this valuable food resource, because we know that natural fish stocks are being depleted internationally. So it is important that New Zealand is able to take its place in developing its own aquaculture industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EVarious figures have been stated as to the worth of the industry and the speed at which it will grow. It is estimated in some cases that there will be up to $1 billion of export earnings in the next 10 years, which would be an amazing feat if it were accomplished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThis bill transfers from the Ministry of Fisheries the responsibility for marine farming permits under the Fisheries Act to regional councils, which will be able to manage aquaculture space under the Resource Management Act. For this reason, I would have preferred to see the bill go to the Local Government and Environment Committee, where we are soon to be engaged in handling the reform of the Resource Management Act. Because a lot of this bill is about that legislation, it would have been useful if we could have handled those two bills in tandem, and been able to make sure that the way in which they would work together was synchronised. But we have left this bill in the good hands of the Primary Production Committee, and we trust that its members will not do to it what they did to the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 3) when they came to a few sticky points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EHowever, marine farmers will no longer require a marine farming permit under the Fisheries Act 1983, and I think that that is good news. It is important that they can develop this industry under the Resource Management Act and under regional council control, rather than under Ministry of Fisheries control\u2014given some of the problems that have occurred in the last 10 or 15 years. They will simply have to register as a fish farmer, and we trust that that will expedite the progress of the development of the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI particularly welcome the provisions in the bill for existing marine farming activities to be given priority when marine farmers apply for that activity to continue on the expiration of their permits. In fact, the explanatory note on the bill makes it very clear that they will have that priority over their space, unless of course the council has established an aquaculture marine area in a different area and has decided that that space will no longer be used in the marine area for aquaculture\u2014in which case it will not apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E But, otherwise, recognition is given to those who have begun aquaculture marine farming, and they will not have to queue up like everybody else to get a renewal of their permits, and I think that very important step is being addressed in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIt is important, though, to note some of the other comments in the explanatory note, and for the benefit of the House, I quote from it: \u201CThe Bill provides mechanisms to reconcile any conflicts between aquaculture and commercial fishing.\u201D\u2014because there will be conflicts in that regard\u2014\u201CUnder the new legislation, the Ministry of Fisheries will assess whether an AMA proposed by a regional council will have an undue adverse effect\u201D, not just on commercial fishing, but also on customary and recreational fishing. This is very important, and I believe there will be many submissions to the committee on it, so that a balance is found in those competing priorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIt is a concern amongst the recreational fishing community that suddenly marine farms will be cropping up everywhere and large areas will be dedicated to being aquaculture management areas. It would be another exclusionary zone where they will not be able to exercise their rights as New Zealanders to fish in this wonderful piece of paradise that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E So I am sure the committee will be listening intently to those submitters who come and seek to address their concerns about that balance between recreational fishing, customary fishing, commercial fishing, and now marine farming activities, and I trust that the committee will be able to find that balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWith regard to the 20 percent allocation to M\u0101ori, United Future accepts that it is a continuation and completion of the settlement of 1992 negotiated by the National Government. Given that it is simply an allocation of space, it seems a perfectly reasonable compromise to enable the industry to move forward without being hamstrung by further litigation over the interpretation of that 1992 settlement. Otherwise, we might be here in 10 years\u2019 time, still trying to see this industry develop. We accept that it is a pragmatic solution, and we welcome the fact that M\u0101ori have accepted it so that all parties can move forward. It will offer M\u0101ori opportunities to engage in this very lucrative industry, and we welcome that because they ought to have that right to participate in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe also support the handling of the allocation through the mechanisms established for allocating the assets from the settlement that will be debated next week, I believe, in the second reading of the Maori Fisheries Bill, and all the structures that have been set up by that legislation, because it does fit well. Although it may, as the co-leader for the Greens said, be another imposition upon Te Ohu Kai Moana, it is the right place, I believe, for it to be handled, and we look forward to all those assets ultimately being released into the hands of iwi throughout the country, so that they may develop economically and make even greater contributions to the nation\u2019s economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces a new form of private plan change. I do not think this is ideal. It would have been much better if the regional councils had used the 3 years they have had during the moratorium to establish aquaculture management areas. I think there will be some complications in going forward in such a piecemeal fashion, where individual commercial interests have to undertake the plan change themselves. Therefore, the committee will have to put its mind to how to allocate the 20 percent to M\u0101ori when the aquaculture management area is not established right from the beginning, but done in this fashion instead, and there may be some other complications that arise with that piecemeal way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EBut nevertheless, it is good to see that we will go forward with this. I hope to see some submissions come in, and from discussions I have had, I believe there will be some that suggest the aquaculture management area concept should be expanded to being an aquaculture marine park. This would include not just the sea environment, but also the adjacent land, because often there is a need for land-based activities to support marine farming. It would make sense, I believe, if the consent process could be handled under one set of rules that would be managed by the regional council. So we will see whether the committee will accept submissions on that through the committee stage. But I thank you, Mr Speaker, for this opportunity to give United Future\u2019s support to the first reading of the bill, and we wish the committee well in its deliberations through the submissions stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8f72d0a5d964ff4ab600cb7fdb7467a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8f72d0a5d964ff4ab600cb7fdb7467a\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak only very briefly to this bill, because\u2014[Interruption] Gosh, those members are a card! This is an important bill, and it is most important for the industry and all those who are associated with it that we assist in passing this bill through the House as quickly as we can. One of the aspects of this bill that I find particularly pleasing is that at long last we have a Government that is providing leadership on important issues. Combined with providing that leadership, we also have protections in place to protect our natural environment, and that is particularly important. This is a good bill and I look forward to it passing through the House as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002246886b09e9424908aa729c7d251c3af3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246886b09e9424908aa729c7d251c3af3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E For those who are now unsure what legislation we are talking about after that contribution from the junior Government whip, it is the Aquaculture Reform Bill, which National will oppose, and oppose vigorously. It has to be the most incompetent piece of fisheries legislation that I have ever seen introduced into this House\u2014the most incompetent piece of fisheries legislation ever introduced into this House. The other aspect of it to which I am opposed is that it is the most racially biased legislation we have yet seen delivered by this Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe reform of legislation around aquaculture is long overdue\u2014of that there can be no doubt. I think it is worthy to recall Labour\u2019s first response. Jill Pettis now says she is pleased with the leadership and the speedy moves to resolution. Labour\u2019s first response to this issue was to impose a moratorium back on 28 November 2001. That moratorium\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253de570a14754c598d901df1f92286f4\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the moratorium was their second response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022259a8d3a606e47edb1b0ce9a75e6cbc4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The next response, which I will talk about shortly, was a further moratorium. The Government imposed the first moratorium and said that it would use that time to sort out its position. To be fair to the bungling David Benson-Pope, the current Minister of Fisheries, that legislation was advanced by Pete Hodgson, who, after a disastrous performance, was finally sacked by the Prime Minister because he could not make progress on that effort. The Government gave itself 3 years to prepare that legislation. Towards the end of its self-imposed deadline on the first moratorium\u2014namely, 25 March 2004\u2014what was its response but to rush back into the House and pass another piece of legislation, which was the second moratorium for that particular important industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThat was after poor old Mr Hodgson had gone up and down the country promising the industry that his response to the first moratorium would not be to impose a second moratorium. Because of Mr Hodgson\u2019s disastrous leadership in that industry, he was finally replaced by Mr David Benson-Pope, who has produced what I think will prove to be some of the worst, and certainly the most poorly drafted, legislation we have seen presented to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second point I make is that while this industry has been constrained by legislation, it has not been able to make the contribution it could have to the wealth of this nation. The industry is currently worth $340 million, exporting close to 70 percent of that amount. Industry spokespeople are on record as saying that by 2020, providing they are given the opportunity, it could be a billion-dollar industry. What has the Government done to reap that potential? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis legislation was presented to the House 2 days ago, on 24 August, and then, surprisingly, when the Minister made his contribution to the first reading, he effectively gave the select committee 2 months to work on it. The committee has to bring it back to the House by 29 November 2004. That date is closely connected to the seabed and foreshore legislation; this legislation is nothing but a blatant bribe and an attempt to buy M\u0101ori support on that issue. Of the 3 months given to the committee, 1 month will be lost to advertising for submissioners and giving them the opportunity to prepare their submissions. We will receive hundreds of submissions, and the select committee will not have the opportunity to give them due consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope is shaking his head. He could not care less, because he knows that he has given the select committee an impossible task in consulting with the industry. He has every intention of simply ignoring the work done by the select committee, including by members of his own party, as he has done with the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 3). That bill came back into the House with the recommendation that it not be passed, and the incompetent, bungling David Benson-Pope pushed on regardless. The Minister should ask why he is sending it to the select committee if the whole process will be just a sham because of the timetable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe most controversial part of this legislation is the Government\u2019s move to give 20 percent of current space to M\u0101ori and 20 percent of future space to M\u0101ori. I listened with huge interest to the contribution from John Tamihere, who obviously got the Prime Minister\u2019s permission to make a contribution today. His history of the deed of settlement signed in 1992 is simply not fact. He talked about the involvement of Doug Graham. I spoke to Doug Graham personally and asked him for the history around the 1992 deed of settlement. The House has to realise that that deal was cobbled together in a matter of weeks, because suddenly an opportunity developed with Brierley Investments Ltd selling out of Sealord\u2019s. There was no mention of aquaculture, despite the contribution from John Tamihere earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227669c15c11104fc6868e91a2ef2da48e\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Doug Kidd took it off the table, that\u2019s why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d08ee87364134f1199ee97d4a703fbc9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It was not mentioned in the agreement, and if David Benson-Pope manages to get off his chuff and read the deed of settlement, he will note that aquaculture is not included. It refers to giving M\u0101ori 20 percent of species that come into the quota management system. Today, this legislation is an attempt to extend the deed of settlement well past the quota management system. We are not about to bring aquaculture into the quota management system. This is about space for aquaculture, and it was never mentioned in the deed of settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to talk about one particular clause in the 1992 deed of settlement. I refer David Benson-Pope to clause 5.1. M\u0101ori signed that, and this is what it states: \u201CM\u0101ori agree that this Settlement Deed, and the settlement it evidences, shall satisfy all claims, current and future,\u201D. This Government is today driving yet another division into race relations in New Zealand by giving M\u0101ori the opportunity to reopen the debate. M\u0101ori signed the deed of settlement in 1992 as full and final, but because the Government is totally embarrassed over the seabed and foreshore legislation, it has done this crafty deal by giving M\u0101ori far more than they expected and giving them 20 percent of space. I say to David Benson-Pope that it is a race for space, and that he should be ashamed of himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E National will vigorously oppose this legislation. Hundreds of submissions will not be given a reasonable hearing at the select committee, because David Benson-Pope has done a deal with the M\u0101ori caucus on this legislation\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2284485566495abf304b491765443e\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: That member should stand aside. He is clearly prejudiced. He is the chair of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd61e7e11ed4dcf8e93b8cc4f05734c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Now the Minister calls me prejudiced because I raised the issue. That is just so typical of the Labour Party. We had Jill Pettis interjecting earlier, when another member raised this issue, and she referred to him as a racist. It is time the Government was prepared to debate the issues, based on the facts. Government members should read the deed of settlement signed by everybody, including the Rt Hon. Doug Graham, but they should not attempt to rewrite history to get themselves out of an embarrassing position over the seabed and foreshore, because that is what they are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI tell David Benson-Pope that it is not me who is prejudiced. It is the honourable member himself, if he is prepared to support this sort of legislation. What it will do is just continue to divide race relations in this country, and to suggest that I am the one who is prejudiced is the most insulting remark, and probably the most inane remark, that that Minister has ever passed across this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that the future of the fishing industry is in aquaculture. The Government needs to find a way of moving it forward without rancour and prejudice. That is not what this legislation achieves. I oppose the legislation vigorously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002254c9cda1d0a64284bfdff793cf259628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254c9cda1d0a64284bfdff793cf259628\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very interesting contribution from that member, the chair of the Primary Production Committee, who said, no doubt as chair, that those hundreds of submissions \u201Cwould not get a fair hearing\u201D. What an interesting comment from the person mandated by this Parliament with guaranteeing the integrity of that process. That was a very sad statement indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut that chairman\u2019s credibility had been shot long before, viz. this point: he called the Hon David Benson-Pope a lazy Minister and said he should get off his chuff. We can count the number of weeks that that Minister has been in his job by the number of fisheries amendment bills there have been. There seems to have been about one a week. I have never seen a Minister produce so much legislation. One cannot call that lacking in productivity; I would call it \u201Cprimary production\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut if David Carter has trouble with numbers, obviously his colleague Mr Heatley has worse trouble, because he said that M\u0101ori already control 45 percent of aquaculture, and that as the bill says they will control 20 percent going forward, that percentage will go up. I am sorry but the average of 45 and 20 is less than 45.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe main point about this bill is that it provides certainty, and if any member of the National caucus other than the future finance Minister, Mr Connell, had ever been in business, that member would know that business likes certainty. This bill gives certainty. Aquaculture can, and will, grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u0022595d76f87ed84cc090f0db6e810f5106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022595d76f87ed84cc090f0db6e810f5106\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First has maintained a very firm position since 2002 that it is very unfortunate that this bill, the Marine Reserves Bill, and the Foreshore and Seabed Bill have come to the House without New Zealand\u2019s oceans policy first being completed. This disconnected approach to our marine space is most regrettable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this bill going to the Primary Production Committee for one major reason, and that is that anyone who has an understanding of the industry\u2019s needs and demands at the present time would know that the last thing we can afford in this country is to have yet further delay. This party vigorously opposed the first moratorium and the second moratorium, and we certainly would not wish further delay on the industry and on those regional councils that went ahead, took Minister Hodgson at his word, and developed aquaculture management areas to a point where action is taking place, and could take place tomorrow. Further delay is the last thing we would want, so to that degree New Zealand First is prepared to support the bill going to the Primary Production Committee. We await with interest the considerations that will come from those who are interested in the bill, and we will see what comes out of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EI would hope that, in so doing, the chairperson of that committee exercises an impartial and objective viewpoint throughout the whole of those hearings. What I have heard in the House just recently suggests a prejudiced mind about some issues in the bill before the hearings commence. On behalf of New Zealand First I caution that we are looking for an open, objective debate about the issues that pertain to the bill, and not a debate about prejudice past and present.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is pleased that the bill clarifies the issue\u2014as has been clarified in other places, in the seabed and foreshore debate\u2014of whether under New Zealand common law the foreshore and seabed are generally held to be under the Crown. In practice we know that the coastal marine area is generally perceived as public space with private occupation. At this time I assert again on behalf of New Zealand First, as has already been stated by a previous member of the House, that that use is a privilege rather than a right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I point out that we are very pleased to see that the Minister has taken into account the industry\u2019s concerns with regard to existing use, in that this bill recognises that the coastal marine area has obviously been used and developed not just in recent years but over hundreds of years. When we start to look at the M\u0101ori component of this bill, as we in New Zealand First have done carefully, we see that the hundreds of years of use of our marine space is a highly relevant matter to consider, and I hope the submitters come with that in mind. Last Saturday I was at a meeting at \u014D\u0101kura with regard to a proposed marine reserve, and there was a very large gathering of coastal folk. One of the elders went back into the history of that district\u2014not just this century, not just last century, but over several centuries\u2014and detailed carefully, for people who wished to hear, how M\u0101ori had used that coast. In that proposal, the Department of Conservation has very rapacious hands with regard to the proposed marine reserve. The point I want to leave with the House is that there are people who, for generations past, have used this marine space and have knowledge of it. To say that there should be no recognition of that in the bill is a step that the select committee will have to think about very, very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E We are pleased to see that the bill recognises the industry\u2019s recognition of this phase-in period. The bill recognises that to the end of the present permit there is certainty. It also recognises that, provided the present permit-holder seeking a new consent is able to show\u2014and I hope that the committee makes this very firm\u2014compliance with the conditions of the permit, and provided that sound, current industry-good practice is being observed by the permit-holder, that person is given a prior right to occupy that space for a future consent term. As we know, most of these consents are for 35 years, and I hope that issue will be advanced as the consent term. Our party believes that if there is near-security for the present permit-holders, provided that they have complied with a new consent, then that is about all that even a 50-hectare consent-owner can reasonably expect as a right. I go back to my first principle, which is that the use of this space is a privilege not a right. We are very pleased to see that the bill has recognised that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ESecondly, we are very pleased to see recognition of the fact that this industry has a chequered legislative history that goes back in time to the early days of the 1960s, up to the Marine Farming Act of 1971. As the Minister of Fisheries is here I want to address one problem to him that is not so obvious in the bill. All of the earlier permit-holders were granted permits by, first of all, the Ministry of Transport in some prehistoric day, then by the Minister of Fisheries, and in many of our regions there is a state of devastation and ill-care with regard to many of those consents. It is of very grave concern to us in the regions as to who will now be responsible for the clean-up of what were Government-directed consents or permits. I do not see any provision for that in the bill. While we in New Zealand First are very pleased to see that the ratepayer will not be burdened by extensive, costly, and lengthy plan changes, and that there is provision for the industry or for individual would-be consent-holders to pursue their own plan changes at their own cost\u2014and we in Northland are very pleased to see that\u2014there should also be some recognition that if the regional councils, in particular, implement those final plan changes, they will do so at some cost. As many of the regions have completed or are near the end of producing their coastal plans, that will be an added impost upon the ratepayer, for little personal benefit. Therefore, I come to the issue\u2014which is also in the bill\u2014of some of the benefits, with regard to the tendering and allocation of space. It may be that some further thought should be given to a more generous distribution initially, to meet the cost of clean-up and the cost of the period of transition. That is not directly addressed in the bill, and I hope the Minister has some awareness of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EMy having said that, we all know the importance of marine farming to our economy. Northland has the longest coastline of any region in this country, and we are very much aware of the value of, and the potential for, marine farming. We have been very concerned about dual issues in the past. We are very concerned that, with relatively large areas of coastal space now required for modern, economic marine farming, there is a consequent need to have those farms located, constructed, and managed so as to avoid and remedy any of the adverse environmental impacts that can, and do, occur. We are concerned that the bill provide for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ELast of all, we in New Zealand First, having observed many M\u0101ori marine farmers from the North Cape to the Bluff manage by their own efforts over several decades, and at great personal cost to themselves and their families, to put together viable farming enterprises, do not believe that for some strange reason some group in Wellington\u2014I think it is called Te Ohu Kai Moana\u2014which is the inheritor of the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission traditions, should now have the allocation of M\u0101ori space, should the bill deem that to be so. We strongly resent there being the same sort of process that M\u0101ori fisheries has had to undergo over the last 11 years. We very much hope the select committee will ensure that that Wellington-placed body, which has neither the knowledge nor the ability successfully to implement this allocation as from 1 January 2005, does not have that role. Therefore, to that degree, we see that particular part of the bill as being one requiring change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWe thank the Minister for getting the bill to this stage. We believe that the industry is ready to go. I know that some regions are ready to go. For that reason, not to proceed with the bill would be an economic injustice. We support this bill going to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u002202257bcfe0fb4b91ba678f002f553f45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202257bcfe0fb4b91ba678f002f553f45\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to support the progress of the Aquaculture Reform Bill, and note particularly that greater powers will be given to the regional councils. I also particularly note that there is one word that is very, very important\u2014that is, the word \u201Csustainability\u201D\u2014and that the regional councils will be the agencies responsible for environmental effects. I look forward to greater involvement of not only my own regional council but all regional councils around New Zealand, in this regard. I remind people that elections for regional councils are coming up. In those regions that have considerable coastlines, people might like to take into account whether those they are voting for have some knowledge in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221c1d6fc4d2774eaea26445e1bec88b3b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Aquaculture Reform Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 83\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 37\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002204d71363d412494794b872147446b1e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204d71363d412494794b872147446b1e8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Aquaculture Reform Bill be referred to the Primary Production Committee for consideration, that the committee present its final report on or before 29 November 2004, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time during a sitting of the House, except during questions for oral answer, during an evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and to meet outside Wellington during a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 191, 193(a), and 194(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022efbddc4d09cf46758cf7d6c72f4ae30e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d72551532bb4faaac217759eef2b8dd\u0022\u003EFisheries Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022966338e7485840bbabedc1a9bc1f32fd\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00226220cdb1762a4a3fa60a6028946c63e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226220cdb1762a4a3fa60a6028946c63e5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 3) that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b34b5fac4c1b47de8b3287582db5caf1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002253583c33ed774048b4e1cf2a61aa4f28\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002295aaa16a809048e5bbc64ee0f22f35be\u0022\u003EPart 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022637dba8aea0f4d7eabff83e257b6ec8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022637dba8aea0f4d7eabff83e257b6ec8e\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I must say that two things came as a surprise to the National Party. One was that the vote on this bill was actually lost at the Primary Production Committee. That means that the Government, which has the majority in Parliament and can win at any stage through the voting process, actually managed to drop the ball at the select committee, and lost the vote. How did it do that? The Government has 51 members. It has the Greens and the United Future lapdogs, who are barking and panting around it. How could the Government have lost the vote on the bill at the select committee? The second point that intrigues National is that Supplementary Order Paper 246\u2014and I know that Nick Smith will be interested in this, so I tell him that the bill itself is 32 pages long, without including the schedules\u2014which corrects the mistakes the Government has made is 17 pages long. The Supplementary Order Paper with the amendments to the bill is half as long again as the original bill. Is it any wonder that the National Party, the ACT party, the Green Party, and the New Zealand First party reluctantly held hands and voted against the Labour Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EOne major issue that we had, and I would like the Minister to address it, is the idea that he is to put highly migratory species such as tuna, skipjack tuna, and all the other highly migratory species into the quota management system. Those species swim all around the world, and are hammered by other nations. We only catch somewhere between 1 and 10 percent of them. They spend very little time in New Zealand waters, yet the Minister wants to put them into the quota management system. I have a publication by his own officials called The Bite, which is a good title because that publication will bite the Minister\u2019s backside right now. The publication states: \u201COne country can\u2019t sit out on its own pretending to manage a stock that spends only a small portion of its life in its fisheries waters.\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264004e1dc1ea48908633713b74aa154b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Who wrote that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dd6823f027c4880952021e3d7f1bb5d\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Ministry of Fisheries. The Minister should know that New Zealand has the ability to have regional and international agreements on the management of tuna species around the world, and in the Pacific and the South Pacific. He should get together with the Australians, the Koreans, and every other fishing nation to try to manage that fishery. He should not try to stop New Zealand fishers either from fishing in New Zealand waters or from fishing on the high seas or in other countries\u2019 waters, by capping them and giving them a handicap\u2014so to speak\u2014against other fishing companies. He should not try to manage the issue in that way. It is absolutely absurd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe want to hear from the Minister as to how he will fix that particular problem. Why is the Minister creating the potential to put highly migratory species into the quota management system? Why is he proposing a trigger clause, when he should not even put those species into the quota management system at all? Why does he not just get together with other South Pacific nations and manage the stock of those species sensibly? We ask the Minister those questions, and we invite the Minister to tell the Committee how he proposes to address that particular problem. His own ministry states in its publication The Bite, which is a glossy, taxpayer-funded publication, that that is an absurd thing to do. I am surprised that the publication does not have a lovely photo of the Minister in it. That publication states that it is absolutely absurd to pretend to manage a stock that spends only a small portion of its life in New Zealand\u2019s fisheries waters. Would the Minister please address that particular problem, tell us about the deal he has done, and tell us where in Supplementary Order Paper 246 he has addressed that particular issue and fixed the problem. That is what we want to hear from the Minister. After that, we would like him to address other issues, particularly concerning new schedule 4C, to be inserted in the principal Act by schedule 1 of the bill, where he has dreamed up a list of other fish species that he wants to put into the quota management system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00229993052dd02244b0b25eb3bf9e0d58cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229993052dd02244b0b25eb3bf9e0d58cb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As this legislation goes through the Committee stage members need to understand that in the last few days a substantial Supplementary Order Paper, No. 246, was tabled in the House, and that effectively, it guts one of the most controversial parts of the legislation. Today in the House I moved that that particular Supplementary Order Paper go back to the Primary Production Committee, in order for that committee to examine it quickly and report back to the House within a couple of weeks. That would not have delayed the passing of the legislation significantly, at all. The Minister\u2014David Benson-Pope\u2014and Michael Cullen, the Minister of Finance, denied leave of the House for that Supplementary Order Paper to go back to the select committee. We wanted to have a chance to examine the content of one of the most substantial Supplementary Order Papers that have ever been tabled in this House, and that was denied by the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Finance because they did not want it to be scrutinised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThose Ministers know that Supplementary Order Paper 246 is about as big a mess as the original bill was. They know that if this legislation is scrutinised they will go through the same embarrassment they went through at the select committee, when the select committee worked on a Government bill in very good faith, to try to tidy it up, and, as Doug Woolerton said, did its bit very, very well. We were bogged down because the legislation was such a mess, and I personally asked the Minister for the committee to be given another week, as we might then have been able to make something out of that very messy legislation. He denied us the opportunity to have a week\u2019s extension and the legislation went back to the House, but only after it had been lost at the select committee. The Government was done over with regard to its own legislation in the select committee, because it was such a mess. What was then amazing was that when the legislation went back into the House, the Green member Ian Ewen-Street appeared to have a change of heart. I think that was because the Supplementary Order Paper has a clause that, effectively, would undo the whole issue about the highly migratory species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E What the National Party argued was this: why should we put fish that are caught outside New Zealand territorial limits into the quota management system, when there is no need to do so? The Minister argued that in the future the Government may negotiate a regional fisheries management plan, which may be the solution for the sustainability of those species. We were told it would be 5 to 10, or maybe 15, years before that happens, and that is why the National Party opposed the bill. The sneaky Supplementary Order Paper effectively achieves that. It passes the legislation in substantive order\u2014it gives the ability to put those species into the quota management system\u2014and then curtails the Minister\u2019s ability to do that because there are no regional fisheries management plans in existence as we speak, so the species cannot come in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhy is that important? The reason it is important, of course, is that here is another opportunity for M\u0101ori to claim 20 percent of the quota for highly migratory species caught by New Zealand operators off the coast of Fiji. That is what Larry Baldock, the United Future spokesperson, will be supporting if he votes for this legislation, and that is what Ian Ewen-Street, as a member of the Green Party, will be supporting if the Greens vote for it. We have had various interpretations of the 1992 deed of settlement, but I just refer members to clause 4.2, which quite specifically states that M\u0101ori endorse the quota management system and acknowledge it is a lawful and an appropriate regime for the sustainable management of commercial fishing in New Zealand\u2014in New Zealand. The quota management system was always for New Zealand territorial waters\u2014the 200-mile limit. It was never envisaged that the quota management system would be extended by the Ministry of Fisheries to international waters and, more significantly, if that was to occur, that M\u0101ori would suddenly have a claim extending well past New Zealand\u2019s economic zone and into the waters of foreign countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis legislation is an absolute outrage. The Supplementary Order Paper is an outrage, and the Minister should either stand and take the opportunity to answer the questions that are raised or allow the Supplementary Order Paper to go back to the select committee, so that it can be adequately examined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00221e8d311e0923485f8a1070edf049d3c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e8d311e0923485f8a1070edf049d3c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Let me just tell the National Party why it is that the House is having an argument on the issue of M\u0101ori obtaining quota in the international zone beyond the 200-mile limit. That is not a policy that I believe in, and it is not a policy that New Zealand First supports, but I want to remind the National Party who was responsible for this debacle coming about, so that if there should be a discovery in the Ross Sea Dependency, in respect of a fishing resource, then, automatically, the National Government would have conveyed and transported to the M\u0101ori people the right of 20 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb7c0f95f2d8445a95848366c6648c42\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ffefa7511c41d5914124ec53fb22b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not rubbish and I will tell the member why. I was here at the time, and I can recall that it was October\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf04d5a4b9e4b4c90ce1211c4475959\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: You voted for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0736d71b8954a919a60f43fedacbb04\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I did not vote for it. There we go! There is the National Party at its worst. They do not know anything about history. They refuse to face the facts. They have their blood and DNA and fingerprints all over the issue, as culpable and as guilty as one can get, and they stand around saying: \u201CBut it wasn\u2019t me!\u201D Who was it that came into the House when Doug Graham was the Minister in charge of Waitangi settlements in October of 1992 and passed the Sealord\u2019s deal? It was all these gentlemen behind me here, all these National Party guys\u2014and if they were not here they were electorate chairmen saying: \u201CGood on you, Doug. Go for it.\u201D [Interruption] We can tell from the voluminous noise that they are as guilty as sin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b72c451b2a488a9864103f3ea416eb\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: You were in the National Party then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e8ccec85bc4dac8b2882f6079c3a93\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no! They cannot blame Winston Peters, and they cannot blame New Zealand First, because, unlike every other member of Parliament, Labour and National, one member refused to support it, and that is the member who is speaking right now. And what happened the next day? Well, having pointed out the fallacy of having no mandate to do what they were doing, either on the M\u0101ori or the European side, having no consultation, no proper process, they went ahead regardless, and the next day they expelled me from the National Party caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223069a65af5004ee9b759ad119df1f960\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c37708257f204c938deececb80b5fc89\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: See what I mean? Here sit these people; they get up and they make all these speeches on things like the Waitangi Tribunal, the Waitangi industry, law and order, and immigration, and now on fishing, of all things, and, having written the whole criteria, they stand here and make these empty, hollow, shallow, baseless speeches and expect good honest New Zealanders to believe them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI have been in politics a while\u2014not long enough, obviously\u2014but I have been in politics a while and I have seen some examples of impertinence, cheek, and gall, but that last speech beats them all. That speech made by Mr Heatley before that beats all, does it not? Mind you, I heard him telling the people up in Whangarei that he believed that kahawai should go into the quota management system. That is what he said. This morning I found he has done a somersault. Even though he sent out 5,000 letters saying where he stood, apparently with the National Party we cannot be certain. It all depends on what time of the month it is, or what month it is. This was only 6 weeks ago. I was there. I could not believe what he said. But, anyway, he has done a somersault. But I go back to my point. New Zealand First will not be supporting this bill. Unlike other parties, our consistent position is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e60a89083f4ba2b89a9d26d18d6b31\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is this the scampi man\u2014more scampi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022984fef7daedd4001b8761e7c1075dc4f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I say this to the member: \u201CGo outside and say it and I\u2019ll sue you, too, sunshine.\u201D Oh, yes! He can go outside and join his mates David Carter and Ken Shirley. I am very happy\u2014I do not care how many smart alecs I have to face. We will do them all. [Interruption] He is always in court but he never wins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d4120ad01404601b1ae94d516563841\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the 300 grand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022206d08fec382454f9c4371fe1f10beac\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: David Carter is not going to win. I tell the member that if he wins I will resign. But he will not. He will be screaming out for mercy and so will his lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb207af886a4491b9827991b2517a0c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come back to the part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8862e6806284b13abee1f056674bc54\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Where did Ross put the money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d27e584675f84782a78cc17a20829173\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: When did Ross put a paper bag over the member\u2019s head? I do not know, but he should have kept it there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd608101bec4d9588ee69cd8b3db770\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us where Ross put the money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9084f94d934add9b2b0c4b6ff4db4b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is amazing is it not? Those members make accusations inside the House, and in the same way, I can remember them all saying: \u201CWinston, what if it all works out? What are you going to say, Winston, when it all works out?\u201D. What I am saying today is what I said back then. It will not work out, and it is not working out, and we do not support it today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022c74f1862387d4e35881bb33e9c523622\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c74f1862387d4e35881bb33e9c523622\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker blew his credibility, on any issue to do with fishing, over the fiasco with scampi. I cannot believe the gall of the man\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed9c27c33674463b178dabeec55379b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could you do me a favour and tell that very naive, inexperienced, and green member that the matter is now sub judice and if he wants to join the action, then he should go outside and open his mouth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ee203594f947418c0a2deb0208bbb6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising that point. I ask members to confine themselves to Part 1 and matters related.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271e986d7302546c1aab89d0f446f32be\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I want to respond to the pretty pathetic contribution we had from the member for Tauranga, and simply suggest that the member read page 18 where it refers to the deed of settlement in respect of fisheries, and in which the words are very clear that it is for the sustainable management of commercial fishing in New Zealand. The words \u201CNew Zealand\u201D are there in black and white. The comments of that member are typical of him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the Government\u2019s record, and to say that Part 1 shows everything that is bad about this Government\u2014firstly, its disrespect for Parliament and parliamentary process, and arrogance in its legislative agenda; and, secondly, its political correctness over both M\u0101ori issues and environmental issues. It is a constitutional disgrace that the Minister has tabled in this Chamber a 13-page Supplementary Order Paper that affects the property rights of people who are involved in one of the most important industries for New Zealand, without any opportunity for them to be able to comment. David Carter quite properly tabled a motion to refer the Supplementary Order Paper to a select committee, but this Minister does not even have the courage of his convictions to speak to the Supplementary Order Paper, refer it to a select committee, and let democracy take its course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI must say this issue involved one of the most appalling incidents I have seen, whereby a Government\u2019s own bill was defeated by a select committee. I cannot recall, in my 14 years in the House, a new Minister face the humbling of a select committee that says: \u201CMinister you\u2019ve got it all wrong. You\u2019ve stuffed it all up.\u201D If I were the Minister I would have thrown in my warrant from day one. He need embarrass himself no further. In fact, I know of nothing this Minister has done in his role, since he has had his warrant, that he has not managed to stuff up\u2014whether in respect of kahawai, this bill, the scampi issue, or the mess he is making of the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we come to the provisions in Part 1 dealing with highly migratory species. What sort of naive Minister do we have that he is going to stop good fishing companies from my electorate of Nelson being able to participate in those industries, when there is not an international agreement? Members on this side of the Chamber agree that New Zealand should sustainably manage those fisheries and work with those countries to get agreement, but it is just a nonsense to tie the hands of our fishermen, while we allow others to rape those particular highly migratory species. It is the sort of expectations we would have of the Green Party, not a Labour Party. Such is the incompetence that we have from this Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we go into another dose of dripping political correctness in respect of M\u0101ori issues. How can it be that this Minister somehow believes that under the Treaty of Waitangi there is a right for M\u0101ori to 20 percent of quota for fisheries outside New Zealand\u2019s exclusive economic zone? That truly is naive. Whatever there might be, we are the Parliament of New Zealand. We should ensure in the legislation that we provide for no such nonsense, whether it is the Ross Sea of Antarctica or the fisheries to the north of New Zealand. Only a Labour Party that has gone to incredible extremes to placate M\u0101ori would possibly provide them with quota outside those areas. It is a nonsense. The provision should be removed from the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EEven the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper does not provide for changes in that respect, and that is a nonsense. It is a double dose of what we have seen with the Aquaculture Reform Bill, in which this Government is tossing huge wealth, away from ordinary New Zealanders, to M\u0101ori on the basis of ethnicity. That is one of the reasons this Government will be thrown out at the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u0022c27cdcc866574493ac99eb11f3e18847\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c27cdcc866574493ac99eb11f3e18847\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Fundamentally this bill is about bringing new species into the quota management system, but so far I have not heard anybody query whether that is a good idea. I have heard Phil Heatley say that it is the best system, and maybe he is right, but certainly it is not the only system. I agree it is a useful tool, but it is just a tool in a tool-box. Why, for instance, do we give people the right in perpetuity\u2014and I say \u201Cgive\u201D intentionally\u2014to fish stocks that are worth, sometimes, tens of millions of dollars? The answer I often get when I ask the question about why we use that system, is that it gives, firstly, security to fishermen. But what about the fish? Secondly, it is said we can control what is caught. But what about security for the fish? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f0d60805f1e4e5da8b3c4fb9912b930\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Bet he kisses the pregnant ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214b96f1dc0744265a4a7ec4bc239eaca\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What about houses for fish? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c71ee854cd249e7abac00a4e2dacd6e\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Land rights for gay whales! The idea that the quota management system actually gives security for the ministry to control the number of fish caught, is a fallacy. Indeed, the system is wide open to be rorted. The mechanism by which it could be rorted is that if fishermen want to catch fish\u2014for example, a valuable species like orange roughy\u2014they do not need a quota. But they do need a fisheries permit, and they can get a permit if they have a quota for 5 tonnes of any species. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E So if I wanted to rort the system, I would get a fishing permit for sea snails, or something equally valuable, and charter a boat from overseas somewhere. I would come into New Zealand, trawl for sea snails, and accidentally catch 20 tonnes of orange roughy, scampi, or whatever it is that happens to be valuable. I would come into a New Zealand port, having done everything legally\u2014I would have my fisheries permit\u2014and I would have unfortunate by-catch. Pardon the pun. I have my permit, I land all of my fish, I get paid for them in the market, and now all I have to do is pay deemed value for the fish that I landed. So while the ministry is calculating the deemed value, I am in Baluchistan, or somewhere else. I have given my charter boat back and left the country. I have the money from selling my 20 tonnes of orange roughy, or whatever it is, and I have scarpered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EWhat sort of security does the quota management system give the fishery? It is not very good at all. I think the idea of giving people rights in perpetuity has been shown up in the land tenure debate we are having at the moment. In the past, Governments gave South Island high-country run holders the rights in perpetuity to lease Government land. Now we are having to buy it back. It is a system that did not work, and I maintain that the quota management system is a system that will have to be revisited in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EOne of the debates we had in the select committee about this bill was about highly migratory species and taking fish from outside of New Zealand territorial waters. Most members seem to overlook the fact that high-seas fishing is the most energy intensive form of food production in the world. When fuel prices go up, the deep-sea fishers will be the first to go out of business. Yet we are trying to give these people quota on the basis of them rushing out into the high seas and catching as many fish as they possibly can now\u2014to basically rape the fishery in order to get quota from outside our territorial waters. It is simply unsustainable. The quota management system is fine as a tool in a tool-box, but not as a mechanism on its own. I think we should look at the sustainability of the fishery over and above the administrative convenience of the officials of the ministry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u00228409d21ce3cf441f98ee54ced0edaf30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228409d21ce3cf441f98ee54ced0edaf30\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I will just take a quick moment to address a couple of small points brought up by Mr Ewen-Street about how bad the quota management system and rights in perpetuity are. I guess we should tell Mr Ewen-Street and his family that they should not have their freehold property in Christchurch\u2014or wherever it is\u2014in perpetuity. They should just lease it and give it back to the public every 20 or 30 years. We know what happens throughout the world when the security of property rights is ignored or constantly threatened by Governments. They dissolve, people do not care about them, and they do not look after them. The same applies to a property right under the quota management system. The fishers who have a property right under the quota management system are far more likely\u2014it does not guarantee it; there are no guarantees for anything\u2014to care for and ensure sustainability in the industry in which they have a major stake. It has been recognised worldwide\u2014and I do not know how many times I have to say this\u2014as the best system for ensuring sustainability. It is not about sustainability of the fishermen\u2014or the fishers as the politically correct people like to call them\u2014it is about sustaining the fish stock. That is the important point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EIs it perfect? No, of course, it is not perfect, but it is sure better than anything else. Until Mr Ewen-Street and the Greens come up with something better, it will continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI want to get on to the Committee stage of the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 3). It is, without question, the job of a select committee to tidy up a bill when it comes from the Minister and his ministry. I say again, as I have said many times, the Primary Production Committee is well known for working collaboratively to make sure that there is a sensible outcome. It took about 2 minutes, or even less, to look at this bill and realise that it was yet another dog\u2019s breakfast from this ministry. It was an absolute disaster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003ESo the bill was essentially lost at sea. It was a case of \u201Cbill overboard\u201D\u2014the bill, and the nonsense of 20 percent of migratory species going to M\u0101ori, was tossed overboard into the South China Sea where it belongs. How on earth could the select committee countenance such abject nonsense that came from this Government? We have just debated the Aquaculture Reform Bill, where 20 percent of the resource is going to M\u0101ori. That is bad. It was wrong to do that. But this is just arrant nonsense. I suspect that Trevor Mallard had something to do with this. Has he not been appointed the Minister who ensures that things that might embarrass the Government do not get through? I suspect he had a little hand in this and said \u201CNod, nod, wink, wink, toss it overboard. Get rid of it as it will say to the public of this country that we are pandering to M\u0101ori again. It is the cargo cult again, so we will stop it.\u201D So out it went. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBut when the Supplementary Order Paper came in that effectively cancelled the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 3), the Primary Production Committee members had about 10 minutes to absorb it. It is a technical adjustment, but it is 17 pages long. Other members have talked about this already. It is a Supplementary Order Paper of 17 pages, when the entire bill was about 38 pages. Along with my colleague the chairman of the committee, David Carter, I sought leave of this House to send the Supplementary Order Paper back to the committee. That leave was denied\u2014surprise, surprise. The Labour Government does not want to do the job properly. It just wants to flick it through, get it on the way, and never mind proper public consultation\u2014just get it out of the way. Well, we are having to go through the Committee stage of this bill now, and I suspect that the bill will end up as yet another embarrassment for the Government. There will be more amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u002276ea7870ca5a4dc3b1274607d50277fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276ea7870ca5a4dc3b1274607d50277fd\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to direct my comments to two Supplementary Order Papers on the Table that relate to Part 1. First, I will comment briefly on the Minister of Fisheries\u2019 Supplementary Order Paper 246, which is largely the result of some of the discussions I have had with him and with ministry officials since I was asked to try to sort out the mess left after the Primary Production Committee had had enough and had recommended that the bill be discharged. I agree with some of the comments that have been made by committee members that it is a large Supplementary Order Paper. It is something we ought to have the time to go through, particularly as it was tabled just this week. I hope the Minister will stand and take a call to answer some of the questions that have been put specifically about issues, because it is important that this is done correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe other Supplementary Order Paper on the Table is mine. It seeks to withdraw kahawai from the quota management system for this year to give time for the ministry to do a better job of giving advice to the Minister regarding the total allowable catch and total allowable commercial catch levels that it has recommended occur on 1 October, which the Minister has accepted. This bill has always been about things the ministry has not done properly, right back from the time of the scampi issues and on through a myriad of others, where one thing has led to another and where people have been disenfranchised from their rights or kept out of their opportunities to gain rights. It was always said that once something had been done it was too late to fix it, so things just kept going on in the way they were. Today we have an opportunity to support my Supplementary Order Paper 247, and at least to pause with kahawai, so that we do this job right. The Supplementary Order Paper affects up to 300,000 recreational fishermen in the country, who are very concerned and who have made their concerns known through an email campaign of 1,900 emails, which I am sure other members in Parliament have also received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIt is clear from the advice that officials have given in their paper that they are not doing their job properly, yet again. Let me refer members to some of what they have said regarding the kahawai stock assessment: \u201CWhile a stock assessment indicated that by 1996 the biomass of kahawai had declined to around 50 percent of its original level, it is unknown whether stocks are currently above or below the biomass that will support the maximum sustainable yield.\u201D They admit they know nothing about the science in this situation. They are having a guess, yet they confidently step up and try to assure the Minister that a 15 percent reduction in the commercial catch will be sufficient to protect this fishery, which is of importance to recreational fishermen all across the country. They go on to say: \u201CIn gauging the required change in catch levels necessary to achieve any particular target level, the matter of a stock size is largely academic.\u201D That is not the sort of advice we should be operating on when it comes to our fish stocks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI have sought, by putting this Supplementary Order Paper on the Table, and by seeking support from other parties, that we at least pause for a year so that better science can be gathered and more negotiations entered into, in order for a better decision to be made. I appreciate the offers of support that I have had from other parties in Parliament. It is very disappointing that the ACT party is resolute in its ideology, and will not support this Supplementary Order Paper, because of what its members perceive to be the property rights of the commercial fishing sector. I think all of us want to respect those rights, but those rights have not been given yet. They are really there only as an expectation, because of the error that the Ministry of Fisheries made in allowing purse seine vessels to target schools of kahawai and plunder what is really a fish that belongs to the recreational fisherman. Any rights that commercial fishers perceive they own are taken at the expense of New Zealanders all across this country who have for many years enjoyed going out and catching kahawai. The advice that the officials have given the Minister requires not just a 15 percent reduction in the commercial catch, which in reality ends up meaning commercial fishers end up catching more this year than they did last year\u2014because the catch is averaged over 5 years\u2014but the imposition of a 15 percent reduction on the recreational fisherman. The bag limit right now for kahawai is 20 fish, and there is not a fisherman in the country who has caught 20 fish, for years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a58725b21dad421c86b05da6299252b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a58725b21dad421c86b05da6299252b6\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00221890a2a8d92f43359bf564f71eb074df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221890a2a8d92f43359bf564f71eb074df\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E The cameo performance of Winston Peters cannot go without some comment. He would have us believe\u2014so easily he would have us believe\u2014that he has spent very little time in the National Party. But when I look around at my colleagues now I see that, with the possible exception of one, Winston Peters has spent more time in the National Party than any other member presently in the Chamber. He might say his DNA is not all over some of these fisheries settlements, but he and I know better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ELet me turn my attention to the most hopeless Minister in the Cabinet, and that is Mr Benson-Pope, the one who is in the chair right at the moment. When I was coming down to the Chamber I thought I would pick up the bill and have a look at it. But then I came into the Chamber and saw his Supplementary Order Paper. It does not have just one page of changes; it does not have just two; it has 17 pages of changes, and that is absolutely outrageous. This Minister is so hopeless that he will not even get on his feet and talk about the amendments that he wants passed by this Committee. He is afraid of doing that; he will not get up and do it, because he does not understand them. He does not have the confidence of his officials\u2014but I suppose I can hardly blame him for that, given their recent record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E But it gets worse. When the second reading was given and the bill was referred to the select committee, the Minister had the support of every party in the House. When the bill came out of the select committee, that support had been lost\u2014not just the support of the National Party and the ACT members but that of the Greens as well. What does one have to do to lose the support of the Greens on this type of legislation? [Interruption] I do not know what it is, but it has to be a fair bit, as one of my colleagues has just volunteered. It is an absolute disgrace, and the Minister will not even get up, take a call, and explain what is taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ENow the Government wants us to put highly migratory species into the quota management system. Well, foreign fishers sitting out on the next wave with their gaffs in their hands must be saying: \u201CYou guys are an absolute joke. These fish might be in your waters for 5 minutes or so, but then they are out on the open freeway,\u201D\u2014so to speak\u2014\u201Cand we will take as many as we like.\u201D How stupid can the Government get? This bill penalises the fishers of this country, and this Minister knows it. That is why the support for the bill was lost in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIt gets worse. The Minister\u2019s own party members on that select committee are so embarrassed that they will not even take a call today to try to defend the measure, and this Minister is completely out of his depth and will not do it. It gets worse. National is particularly concerned that what the Government is trying to do now is entirely premature. There is no international, or even regional, convention of putting these species into some form of quota system, so why would one do it before all one\u2019s major competitors do it, unless one did not understand what was taking place? That is the issue at heart. This Minister is so hopeless that he cannot even get his head round that particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIf we are to go down this track, we might expect that some of these fish are in danger, but they are not\u2014they are absolutely not in danger, at all. Skipjack, I understand, exists in huge numbers across the globe, but this Minister, because of some feel-good reason, wants to put it into some sort of quota management system. Well, it is worse than stupid; it is just incompetent. Imagine a fishery off Chile, where fishers say: \u201CWell, I can\u2019t take this number of fish today, because it might upset the Kiwis. They have a Minister of Fisheries over there, David Benson-Pope, who said we can\u2019t take these fish because they are not in our quota management system.\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022406de4efd7bb4d499e77acfa252cf937\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022406de4efd7bb4d499e77acfa252cf937\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228ade00fc463f4534b2080285d2455d96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ade00fc463f4534b2080285d2455d96\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The reality is that this bill will be passed through Parliament unless the Green Party and United Future come to their senses. If they do come to their senses, then this bill will not proceed, and we will have time to consider its serious and dramatic flaws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI have had a chance to look at the legal opinion provided by the Minister of Fisheries to me. I was told he had two legal opinions, but he has not; he has one from the same man\u2014twice. Well, the day the courts of this country believe that the 1992 settlement was envisioned by M\u0101ori at that time to include the zone beyond the exclusive economic zone, it is high time we start changing our judges. What the Minister is saying is even if we got a contract off Chile, for example, nevertheless the M\u0101ori people\u2014whether or not they invested one cent\u2014would gain 20 percent. Surely, the M\u0101ori people are not so unfair that they think that is right. I do not know of any sane, rational, fair M\u0101ori who thinks that is fair, bearing in mind that the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission has hundreds of millions of dollars and could join our New Zealand fishing companies now, make an investment, and gain its 20 or 30 percent that way. That is the honest and fair thing to do, and why we are facilitating these sorts of demands is beyond me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMore important, why did the Minister not go and get a second or third legal opinion from some Queen\u2019s counsel down town on whose academic expertise we could more rely? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022501dae0d704249278625027e17dd69d7\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: We have got three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c952ecfeedd40b38e88ee444ac516e8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if he has three, where are they? I have only two legal opinions here, written by the same man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022905d011eb15e41959648f84fef616f43\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: They say the same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f587ee502384e63a4d8998bafc6069d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, they say the same thing. Well, if they say the same thing, why have we not seen them all. Why are we not privy to all the legal opinions that say that? But can he show me the M\u0101ori who says that 20 percent of the Ross Sea Dependency resource is owned by M\u0101ori? Many years ago I said that, in a statement I made at the time, and I got a letter from a M\u0101ori who said: \u201CWell, in our mythology one of our waka went down there.\u201D\u2014and that is a fact. It is one thing for M\u0101ori to make fair claims\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280fe304d5ff5485eb18271000a266e5a\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s his name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a9ed0c9c8f341169b0e619f4cac99bd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: What is his name? It was such a long time ago. I threw the letter in the round filing basket, as I was so disgusted with it. But it is in the name of M\u0101ori that many of these claims are being made. My message to the M\u0101ori people is to ask how it benefits them if this sort of baseless claim is allowed to be promoted by a Government that is in trouble because it does not understand the M\u0101ori people, and whose members have not been doing their work around the M\u0101ori rohe, and, as a consequence, seek to sneak this bill through Parliament and somehow ingratiate themselves with the wh\u0101nau and the brothers back home. Mr Tamihere knows full well what I am saying; the M\u0101ori people are sick and tired of members who are lions on marae and lambs in Parliament\u2014and this bill will not save them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThere is a significant injustice here. Why should a fishing company take the risk of capitalising into boats and of putting men offshore in a very, very high-risk environment if, no matter what it gains by way of quota history, 20 percent automatically goes to M\u0101ori? Let me ask the Greens this: where do they think M\u0101oridom is going, if that is a fair policy? What do they think they are doing for the M\u0101ori people if they advocate that? And what about United Future, of all parties? Where in the family doctrine of United Future does it state that it is right to treat one member of the family differently from the other? Where is that doctrine? Why do we have it in respect of this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to ask very clearly is where the Ministry of Fisheries gained the idea that green-lipped mussel spat is to be found only in the far north. Where did it get that idea from? Nine people will become the exclusive owners\u2014from now on, in perpetuity, it seems\u2014of that resource. Where on earth did it get that idea? Where is the scientific evidence? Do all those spat that I have been seeing on the beach at places like Whananaki and Whangaruru get there by some sort of mistake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed5537b20cc1405f97d52082b1f58850\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Are they yours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b76eef0304a640578e2f4afe95be041a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is what I said: are those ours, or are we to allow others to take what is a resource and develop it into something huge? I know, for a start, that if we allowed aquaculture off the coast of the Bay of Plenty, 20,000 tonnes of spat could be harvested per year and 400 people could be employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022434554fde487438ba2c703c1f3071afa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022434554fde487438ba2c703c1f3071afa\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It has been interesting to listen to the contribution from a number of members today. One thing that has been absolutely fascinating to note is that even though we have the 17-page Supplementary Order Paper 246 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope, we have not heard a single peep from the Minister. The document is so thick, in so many different ways, that that ensures it will never be read\u2014that is for sure. By virtue of the very eloquence of that Supplementary Order Paper, in terms of how thick it is and what it is trying to achieve, it will never ever be read. That is one thing we can be sure of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt has also been interesting to listen to a number of the other speakers who have made a contribution. I refer in particular to the Green member, who absolutely opposed the process right through the select committee stage in the Primary Production Committee, and who has come to the Chamber now and been bought off. I have gone through the 17 pages of Supplementary Order Paper 246 and I cannot find the bit that is so particularly good for the Green member. I hope somebody will take a call and explain why the Green member has been bought off with a 17-page Supplementary Order Paper. The reason for that is bound to be in there somewhere. The chairman of the select committee cannot find it. Someone will know where it is, but I cannot find it in that Supplementary Order Paper, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022902a4923d3fa49c5b75a31f3ab04cf13\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260f2f629d13f4836a6fbb4e1f3722b30\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that that is probably so. The Green member also touched a bit on the issue of by-catch. We know that the member himself became a victim of by-catch in the select committee, and we all hoped that that might help to eliminate the migratory species that are going up his tie and frightening most people in the Chamber. But that has not worked; even that has failed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister to take a call and answer some of the very important questions that have been put to him by a number of speakers. The last speaker, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, put a range of questions to the Minister, and not one of them has been answered. I want to know how a migratory species can be introduced into the quota management system, and how that will be managed off the coast of Brazil by a New Zealand Minister called David Benson-Pope. How will that happen? Somebody needs to explain that. The previous member spoke about how 20 percent of the quota for those species, once it has been established, can then be allocated to M\u0101ori. National wants to know how that will work. The Minister needs to answer those questions today, because a lot of other people want to know the answers to them, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI also want the Minister to answer this basic question: given that a number of people, right at this moment, are contemplating making an investment in what is an up to $1.5 billion export industry in this country, how can they make that investment with any degree of certainty, whatsoever? The Minister is basically saying to those people that they simply cannot do that. He does not consider the industry to be important enough to be given the proper amount of time, through the proper parliamentary process, so that those people can go out and risk their capital and their lives\u2014as is often the case out on the fishing boats. I suggest to the Minister of Fisheries that he should go out on a fishing boat one day, and look at the physical kind of environment that those people work in. Why can the Minister not show the decency towards those people of putting this legislation through the correct select committee process? He is just abusing the process. Many people have sought leave to send Supplementary Order Paper 246 back to the select committee, so that the very people who are involved in this industry and risking their capital can come to Parliament and tell the Minister what they find wrong with the process on this legislation. Will he do that? Not at all. It is absolutely amazing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWe have a minority Labour Government that is propped up by a few lackeys\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c094d9e97f149a1904647f3395e2e6a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c976d36b85344f06b5a91e9e71bbf82e\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014and it will not support the very people it purports to represent. It will not support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111098fe3d1a404c8c18bb76d52ae912\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. In the interests of parliamentary decorum, whilst one may call certain parties \u201Cdoormats\u201D, \u201Ccarpetbags\u201D, and what have you, I think the word \u201Clackey\u201D has been ruled out. Therefore, I think the member should choose his words carefully and not persist in that line. But to say \u201Cdoormat\u201D is OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022089f54c482c24b6c9a063b7daa950ea9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I did call for order, but the speaker did not turn back to the Chair. I ask Mr Ardern to please withdraw that comment; it is not acceptable in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225036397618a64801a1d4b33a4ccaaaff\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston Peters raises an interesting dilemma for members. If the word \u201Clackey\u201D is to be ruled out, could the Chair confirm, as Mr Peters asserts, that the word \u201Cdoormat\u201D is fine? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022702dba188a44454486ce93f191bc7b54\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: If anyone uses either \u201Clackey\u201D or \u201Cdoormat\u201D in reference to either a member or a party, I will rule it out. It depends on the context that those words are used in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313bbfe97ead45819889004cde9f2d7c\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: What about \u201Clapdog\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0f4b1cd7a814d479ce82087002bda2a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to anything like that, it will be a matter of my judgment. Mr Ardern used \u201Clackey\u201D, and he will withdraw that. I ask him to please withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f71b1ae554747faa517372dace0f86f\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. I was saying to those parties in the Chamber whose support is very cheap and can be bought without very much substance at all, that they should stop for a moment and think about what is being done to the very people they purport to represent in this Parliament. Those people will definitely not be happy with the process on this legislation, and those parties should just think about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI also say to the Government members, who are supporting this parliamentary process, that they are abusing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228c05d034f549472a9bcfcc029e9a583a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c05d034f549472a9bcfcc029e9a583a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. I know that this is the procedure during question time, but Committee time is also pretty important. The Minister, Mr Benson-Pope, has indicated that there is a third legal opinion in existence; he said that he has three legal opinions. That being the case, I seek leave to ask the Minister whether he will provide us with that legal opinion. If he has it, then we are entitled to see it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00228f8a75a1636146649c4a50f4a95a25ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f8a75a1636146649c4a50f4a95a25ff\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Any member may seek leave for anything. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed3553064561452aaa56ea1536c624b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed3553064561452aaa56ea1536c624b8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E The point raised now by the Hon Winston Peters raises in my mind a very serious constitutional issue about the way in which this Minister of Fisheries has treated the Primary Production Committee. I refer to the issue of the legality of our requiring 20 percent of the quota for species caught outside New Zealand to go to M\u0101ori. One of the first things the select committee asked for was a legal opinion. From memory, we asked the Minister, through his ministry officials, for legal opinions. We got one legal opinion dated 9 May 2003\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242c026cc0a394e719ec58e82abad186e\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: From Crown Law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c02d63d2e8b341b1afc0143ae2e53229\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister interjects, so he is still awake. The opinion is from Crown Law. It is signed by a Mr Craig Linkhorn, Crown counsel, but what Mr Peters may not be aware of, and what the Committee needs to know, is that the Minister and his officials deleted great portions throughout it. In other words, the actual legal opinion was not given to the select committee, and to this day that has not been done. That is absolutely outrageous. For the Minister then to say he is sitting on two other legal opinions that he was not prepared to give to the select committee so that it could examine the legality of the issue leaves me with only one conclusion: the other two legal opinions probably have a very contrary view to the very shallow, partially deleted legal opinion from the Crown Law Office. That is the only possible conclusion as to why the Minister and his officials clearly tried to pervert the select committee process and did not give the members the opportunity to consider legal advice as to the legality of this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e52a4c7329546bfb02b7599f0f19832\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re being kept in the dark!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f52dcad3acb34b10bf8a96278d1cc456\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. The select committee was kept in the dark. We now know from the Minister\u2019s interjection\u2014he is not prepared to take a proper call, but he chips in\u2014that there are three legal opinions in existence. Yet all that the select committee was given was one legal opinion with a number of large deletions throughout it, so we could not form an opinion as to the legality of this issue. It is an absolute outrage that the Minister suggests that Parliament pass legislation that gives M\u0101ori 20 percent of species caught outside New Zealand territorial limits by New Zealand fishers, but he is not prepared to let us have a look at the legal opinion that justifies that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269bd1dab2b264c4a909c862135706cdf\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: It says the same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a06aa1755a4d30afd5a960e9c13da1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Now he says the second and third legal opinions say the same thing. If that is so, he should give them to the select committee. Why hide them? I might add that the first opinion had so many heavy deletions in it that the select committee was unable to form a view as to what the opinion stated. The Minister should take a call and allow the Committee of the whole House to have a look at those opinions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E I can only assume he is hiding those legal opinions for one reason, and one reason only\u2014that is, he knows that this measure has no legality. It is another sop to M\u0101ori, an attempt to settle the issue around the seabed and foreshore. That is what is going on here. New Zealand fishers who catch tuna and albacore on the high seas are now being asked to pay up and front up with 20 percent of their hard work, to be given to M\u0101ori so that the Labour Government can buy favour with M\u0101ori. The Minister shakes his head and denies it. He should take a call. He should not sit there like a dork. He should take a call and answer the questions that have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to move to another point. The select committee was concerned at three specific submissions, one from Westhaven Shellfish, one from Sea-Right Investments, and one from the cockle industry. I know that Mr Ian Ewen-Street said in his contribution earlier this week that the Minister had given his word that those issues, which were of concern to the whole of the select committee, would be addressed by his Supplementary Order Paper. I say to the Minister that I cannot see where that happens in the Supplementary Order Paper, and therefore I ask the Minister to take a call and tell us how it addresses the issue of Westhaven Shellfish, which has had an argument with the ministry for years, has won in court, and claims that this bill overrides its rights. I ask the Minister to tell us how the case of Sea-Right Investments, which is in the same situation, is fixed by this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u002230d233a21ef2409db04b0613544ea0b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230d233a21ef2409db04b0613544ea0b5\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to address the amendment moved by Larry Baldock on the question of kahawhai. I agree with the substance of what he said about the kahawhai fishery. It has been Green policy for many years that kahawhai should be managed as a recreational-only species, because it has so much greater value as a recreational species than it does as bait, which is what much of the commercial catch is used for. There should, however, be just enough commercial quota to cover the inevitable by-catch so that that is properly accounted for, but kahawai should not be targeted. I have had hundreds of emails from recreational fishers, thanking me for the position that the Greens have taken on that for years. They are convinced that the stocks are declining, that they are harder to catch, and they blame the purse-seine boats that have been scooping them up. I discussed that issue with the former Minister, and I thought at the time that he agreed that that was how kahawai should be dealt with. So I was quite disturbed to find that when kahawhai went into the quota management system the quota issues were based on commercial catch history, just like any other fishery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe fact is that kawhai are not in this bill, and the amendment is not in any way related to this bill. Kawhai are already in the quota management system. I was quite intrigued to see how Larry Baldock would fix the situation through an amendment to this bill. When I saw the wording of the amendment I could not support it, because it would not actually fix the situation for the recreational fishers but it would make it worse. I also cannot support a process whereby a party withdraws support for a bill it fundamentally accepts, in order to get an amendment that has nothing to do with the bill. That kind of horse-trading does not work around this place, and we have always refused to trade between issues in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe fact is that the Minister is constrained by law. Once a species is in the quota management system, he has to make decisions that are based on scientific information that can be challenged in court. As Larry Baldock himself said, we have a great paucity of information about kahawhai stocks and about kahawhai catches. I have talked with the Minister today, and I have a personal undertaking from him that $1 million will be put into getting good information on the kahawhai fishery over 1 more year, at which stage the quota will be reassessed\u2014not after 3 to 5 years, but after 1 year\u2014and that if there has been no recovery in the stock, then the commercial quota will be reduced in order to protect the recreational catch. At this stage there is no other way that that can be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a960df495fe746ff92aecb6f9c9ecadf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a960df495fe746ff92aecb6f9c9ecadf\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b91b5bb148486db256215be8508a70\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002209e541035e6f474b8a8652115677077e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209e541035e6f474b8a8652115677077e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson): \u003C/span\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I want to draw to your attention that we have before us a Supplementary Order Paper that was tabled on Tuesday of this week, which includes 11 pages of amendments. These are not amendments that have been considered by the select committee. They are amendments that affect a large\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8ab7d4c03434762a76422d7531781ef\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that. The time has come for me to leave the Chair to report progress, and I must do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040826ddadc4b70f2946f6b2a917d0f7bf5f3b000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"