"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa458b50407a4ae280142a9d3de85a48\u0022\u003EThursday, 16 September 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022929930ae744144dc9cb75bf99a0e66ff\u0022\u003EThursday, 16 September 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ae513ca3efc420a88198cfc0fa382fc\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225d9f0841617421ebfeec71bbd917d3e\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e42ffa9abaf044f9bb178bb8ca397686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e42ffa9abaf044f9bb178bb8ca397686\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week the House will go into a 2-week adjournment period. When the House resumes on Tuesday, 5 October priority will be given to the remaining stages of the Electricity and Gas Industries Bill, to the second readings of the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill, the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill, and the Holidays Amendment Bill, and to the first readings of the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 3), and the Social Security (Social Assistance) Amendment Bill. Members\u2019 days will be in the first and third weeks of the next session. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002244ba6a1f740a47378f07ce4b1a5517ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244ba6a1f740a47378f07ce4b1a5517ac\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Is it still the intention of the Government to pass the seabed and foreshore legislation prior to Christmas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002254f28fec0af4424ebeaf3221533783ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254f28fec0af4424ebeaf3221533783ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba2bc7ebdb9e4dd181712bae6db78f1b\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f571f95b54440fe90c52d442b60db5d\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2014No Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8ac774ce749433a9b391939e34951d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8ac774ce749433a9b391939e34951d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to move without notice a motion of no confidence in the Speaker, and to ask that he vacate the Chair whilst we discuss a number of unfortunate events that have occurred in the House recently, in which Ministers have elected to frustrate members seeking answers to questions during question time, and the Speaker has shown a willingness to allow that to happen\u2014when necessary, by the unjustified removal of members from the House in order to further shut down a line of questioning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022159955621fa8400f9c39afe2def99ea4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221de78939e7dd49a29e94d78fefe06cfa\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dca3d5278f1a4394a2861cbe1b3f461b\u0022\u003EReplies to Written Questions\u2014Adequacy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022a02efc1254d74a7493a83afdf8d6fa90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a02efc1254d74a7493a83afdf8d6fa90\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I raise it with you in relation to questions for written answer No. 12723, and Nos. 12732 to 12805 inclusive. In all those cases I have asked written questions of Ministers, to indicate the number of employees in each Crown entity, State-owned enterprise, and department of State for which they hold ministerial responsibility. In each case I have received an identical response\u2014now 29 in number\u2014that indicates I should go to the organisation\u2019s annual report, seek the information through its financial review process, or wait for the State Services Commission\u2019s human resources survey that will come out later in the year. In relation to each of the processes nominated in the answer there is the delay of at least weeks, and potentially of months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI put it to you that if that standard of answer is acceptable in response to a question that simply seeks, without any great difficulty, a factual answer as to the number of employees in each entity for which those Ministers hold accountability, then we will have a very poor time in holding Ministers accountable in this House. There was one answer only with a direct response in terms of the number of employees in each entity for which ministerial or similar responsibility was held. That was the answer you gave as Speaker, and therefore as the person responsible for the Parliamentary Service Commission, the Office of the Ombudsmen, and one or two other entities. I would like you to look at the adequacy of the other answers, and to give your serious consideration to whether the Ministers concerned should be directed to give more fulsome and helpful responses than has been the case. In essence, I ask you to direct Ministers of the Crown to meet the exemplary standards set by your good self in responding to questions from members of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a8361b3971b41648f2e9a40d0b83398\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, I answer on my behalf, and not on anyone else\u2019s. The member has written to me. I am still looking at the matter, and he will get his response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d17cc68b8e4d4b259cae7ecdf85c1608\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d67333b4a66849aaaf2d66123a894478\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2014No Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022acc84f6672514180810cb3df776a4c74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acc84f6672514180810cb3df776a4c74\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek a point of clarification, which concerns the notice of motion that I sought, under leave, to put to the House. If that is the standard in this House\u2014to vote without hearing the argument from the other side\u2014then on a voice vote no such motion can be put. Pray tell me how one can put such a motion, given the fact that we have looked at the Standing Orders and at precedents going back a long way in this country\u2019s history. I want to know how someone who believes the House should have lost confidence\u2014and members have lost confidence\u2014in the Speaker can have such a motion put and voted on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00225b1f52c0a940478796e1c3fd6ef863cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b1f52c0a940478796e1c3fd6ef863cc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member can put down a notice of motion, and there are no special rules for notices of motion lodged by the leader of New Zealand First. Notices are lodged between 9 a.m. and 10 a.m. on any sitting day; I refer to Standing Order 94(1). The member\u2019s notice was lodged between those times this morning. If the notice is in order, it is placed on the Table when the House meets\u2014as this one has been. It is then set down as a Government or member\u2019s order of the day, in accordance with Standing Order 95. This notice, as it comes from a member who is not a Minister, will be set down as a member\u2019s order of the day for the next day on which the House sits, which is Tuesday, 5 October, and it will appear on the Order Paper for that day. It will be deleted from the Order Paper 1 week after its first appearance\u2014that is, it will appear on the Order Papers for 5, 6, and 7 October, and will be omitted from the Order Paper for Tuesday, 12 October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5e44b9d0c534e948628039e9b37e638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5e44b9d0c534e948628039e9b37e638\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. As a matter of clarification, that is my very point. If the motion has not been debated within a certain time, it goes off the Order Paper. Given that I believe this is a matter of urgency, I want to know how it can be debated in this democracy in which we live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002274c0b7ad78c14bb59182a10e8bad30c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274c0b7ad78c14bb59182a10e8bad30c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs leave from the House. The member has sought that, and it has been declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002270aa917b3e1b45d59ae586ee41fbbc9a\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299607f8028344719856155b973261d78\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022265314a886dc413b9a1b283b1d43737b\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Career Guidance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1569348c7e408a900aba1ad76b064b\u0022\u003E1. H V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What steps is he taking to improve career information and guidance in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00223c40433817334ebcaaaa7122eb7faa29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c40433817334ebcaaaa7122eb7faa29\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Seventy-five schools throughout New Zealand will take part in a new pilot programme aimed at helping young people plan their move from school to further education or work. The $5.5 million Designing Careers pilot will reach more than 15,000 students in those schools. It will arm them with the information and skills necessary to make good choices about where to go next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5951640d5584114891a090fa2401f07\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House why providing career-planning advice is important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022fea7219aa4ef29cf45888e3cf8a7d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Ensuring that we get the right people with the right skills into the right jobs is very important for New Zealand. All people have their strengths, and we want to match them with the right careers. For example, some people are really good at presenting information, some people are good leaders, and some people follow through on what they say. Getting those people into the right roles is important, and it has not always been done well in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd46359a78f04ee89e0e8cd9bef94ada\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Given that parents and communities are raising almost half a billion dollars a year to keep schools operating, when will the Minister stop putting small amounts of money into tiny, contestable pools and start funding properly the operations of schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbea2ff87cb6449183d7e91f9298087e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important, in addressing that question, that the member makes it clear that a significant proportion of the half-billion dollars that he describes as coming from communities comes from Chinese communities. He includes overseas student funding as local fund-raising, which is just nonsense. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5befe16c4494ceabf2b6442c397bcf0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not to be involved in this. The member knows that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002240c9736d295b49c1b4eea98ba10d6512\u0022\u003EIraq\u2014Defence Force Deployment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f774cd676824437ab7f64e92c8ec6d85\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Defence: Is New Zealand ending the involvement of our troops in Iraq; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddf99c8e81d247b0a6c9b87c8a0f9b77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddf99c8e81d247b0a6c9b87c8a0f9b77\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Our engineer deployment will return to New Zealand this month having concluded the two planned 6-month deployments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022745a19ec0ddd4912bf1f3b4dda51479a\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: On what date was a decision made by our Government not to replace our detachment in Iraq, and was Australian Prime Minister John Howard consulted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238db4c7f914041199ab01da01535a60c\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government made a series of decisions that go back to 2003. The original announcement was made\u2014I do not have the precise date in front of me\u2014in about, I think, August 2003. The first deployment of 6 months took place in late September 2003, at which time both the Prime Minister and I made it clear that a second 6-month deployment may happen, and it did. Cabinet made that decision and announcement quite early on, and in March this year that second deployment took place. So the full 12 months has come to a conclusion, and our deployment will come home this month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273bc4212af74497ebf445abc6c73cfc3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was another part to the question about Mr Howard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d790e0b05a594a179067cbccdfaee67a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: We are not part of the occupying force. There was absolutely no way in which we would consult Mr Howard. We are there under a UN resolution in support of the aid and reconstruction effort, not as part of the occupying force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccc583523d3e4e0e908d45bf70f92ca2\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: What have our engineers been doing in Iraq over the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f452a83e123f41deb1807ac76e2210f3\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Our New Zealand Defence Force personnel have undertaken the vital task of helping to restore core infrastructure. That has included the NZAID-funded refurbishment of St Mary\u2019s School in Basra, the construction of reverse osmosis plants, and refurbishment work on the Basra teaching hospital. There has been a large number of other projects, including the construction of water tanks and hardstand water pipes at several small schools, ongoing maintenance on two Bailey bridges, and school refurbishment. All in all, more than 40 projects have been completed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ddf290f3c8140718fb8ebd02cf2571d\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise whether one of the reasons there is to be a removal of personnel from Iraq is due to the serious shortage of troops and the gaping holes in current training regimes, as identified in the New Zealand Defence Force annual report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c3de8aefaba4f5f9fb65560cc5b46a9\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: No. I can confirm that the second 6-month deployment, which the Government flagged may take place and did, is coming to a conclusion. That is why this deployment is coming to its natural conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075f4682ecb346149f24f787324cd3cd\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the UN Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, that the invasion of Iraq was illegal; and will the Government breathe a sigh of relief that, with the withdrawal of our army people from Iraq, there will not be a claim by the United States that we are part of the coalition force, as shown by the official US website that includes us as a coalition force and as part of the occupying coalition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234cc90041b80414bb44cb50d7ba93a8d\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I have not had the opportunity to read the announcement from the Secretary-General, but it is clear to everyone in this House\u2014and I am sure to everyone in New Zealand\u2014that New Zealand went, following a UN resolution and in response to it, to help with the aid and reconstruction work in Iraq. We have not been there as part of the occupying force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d88bf711732a4302ac7dbe01d8d08d68\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Does the decision to end the current engagement, in line with the original agreement, mean that New Zealand is ruling out any potential future involvements, subject to a UN request or a request from the Government of Iraq; if not, can the Minister indicate what the processes would be for considering any further request?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3b1235e45624d819768d701923165eb\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member asks a hypothetical question. There has not been, to the best of my knowledge, any request from the UN. Obviously, any request from the UN this Government would always consider and take seriously. I would anticipate\u2014and other colleagues have commented on\u2014other possible future assistance through NZAID, for instance, as part of the ongoing work in support of the reconstruction of Iraq.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bfd26c9adbe43bdaf00503b487ee2ac\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has the position of our engineers in Iraq changed in any way, especially since Prime Minister Helen Clark repeated her commitment to Iraq just in April this year, when she said: \u201COur position hasn\u2019t changed. As long as our engineers can get out and do good work with the local communities we\u2019ll be staying there.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c47d0ab02ae49f8a611e221bf198487\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Our position has not changed. As the member knows, during the course of the 12 months there have been periods during which the engineers have been able to move freely, and other periods that have been more restrictive, including the last few weeks. I can tell the member, because I know he is interested, that during that time they have been able to conclude some of the project work. They have had a series of meetings with local people who will be continuing on some of the projects, such as the work on the hospital that they have been involved in. And, of course, because it is nearing the end of the planned period anyway, there is the preparation for exiting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3273d54fe704124b041fc2e6be85357\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to the fact that in the past week we have seen Australia stand up to terrorists and refuse to be intimated, but our Government does exactly what terrorists want, by withdrawing our troops?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d94c93b02224b419e97a53702b97db3\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I regard that as an affront to the courageous men and women of the New Zealand Defence Force. They have worked for 12 months in a very dangerous situation. They are coming home because it is time for them to come home. I think that member insults the men and women of the New Zealand Defence Force. He should be ashamed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f7d030825b2400082115a3076b838a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister was not asked whether it was a decision of the Defence Force or any member of it; he was asked a question to do with his political responsibility\u2014and he knows it. Nothing in that answer remotely addressed the question. Whether or not we have sympathy with what he is saying, is a different matter. But in terms of parliamentary accountability he failed to answer the question in any way, shape, or form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a8fdc940994abe983abf515ea7e74d\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I did address the question. The member asked, by implication, whether New Zealand was withdrawing, and the answer is no. We are not withdrawing in an inappropriate way. Our personnel are coming home at the end of a planned deployment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226051f675568140f8a6a64c448dd400e3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The question was: what is the response of this Government? Here we have a pinko pacifist standing up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d70914f58394d489c73e1307e4f0712\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee3ab356d634c5bbb05cfeb7805169c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3c82e3569a04ef894b3c0ca4b39eea1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there is no point of order on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c40b8d05b3ce48c1ac99123d6284df5b\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b65a955d490e460394717a89eb8e22df\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This had better be a new one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022875b9984ed6642a5b539f9cd4173d9c5\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am quite happy to stand up and apologise to that member, but I think that he should be apologising to me, to this House, and, indeed, to all New Zealanders. To suggest that my question in any way insulted the men and women who serve in our defence forces is an affront, and you, Mr Speaker, allowed it. That was a legitimate question to this Government. It in no way implied an insult to our defence personnel. In fact, if anyone should be apologising to our defence personnel, it is that Minister who is in charge. That was not the point of the question, Mr Speaker, and if you allow that to stand, I am afraid I will be joining Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd8c1bea6214a36b3ebf5e6d98562a9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member may well be doing that. I say to the member that, as far as I am concerned, the Minister gave a strong reply. It is a debatable matter. I am not here to judge whether it is good or bad; I am here to judge whether it addressed the question. I thought he started out by saying virtually \u201CNo\u201D to the member, then he made some political comments afterwards. That is not unknown in this House. This is no reflection on the member of course, as a strong ACT member. The member made his point, and I think he made his point very well in the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc8e32e2f7a49429d3bd6505b5ae882\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have to say that I seriously disagree with you. For the Minister to suggest that I am not patriotic or supportive of our servicemen and servicewomen, is very deeply offensive to me. I would have thought he would take the label that I put to him as a badge of honour, because it was true. But to stand up and say an untruth and somehow imply that I am denigrating our defence forces, I find deeply offensive. I suggest, Mr Speaker, that you ask him to withdraw and apologise. Otherwise, what are we here for? There are two standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8211934db424ff7947beb5a9bdc5b96\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As far as I am concerned, the member has now raised the point that he himself has taken personal offence to a comment made. That is a slightly different point from the original point of order. In that regard, I ask that the Minister withdraw that part of his comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237378a404026480bbf0499dff6cf657d\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw that part of my comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dadd0e083a544b39a5ec0e9acc513c9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. During the member\u2019s last statement he repeated the allegation that he previously had to withdraw, and said it was true. He also accused the Minister of stating an untruth. Both of those are contrary to the Standing Orders. I ask that you now require him to withdraw and apologise again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffb0d5807bd44bc7a4aab9c519e7ea94\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now stand and withdraw the comment about an untruth, because that, of course, is out of order in this House. The member will withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9b263f16bcb4a5aa46c907a150f431c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f7a94a33c3d4c29b5d45e041bf3621a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance here because I am reflecting on the comments that were made to the Minister that were considered unparliamentary. We have a member of this House, namely the Minister himself, who has proudly told the country, in many press releases, that he was a founding member of a Taup\u014D peace and disarmament movement. Many people in the country would naturally refer to that as a \u201Cpeacenik\u201D organisation. The Minister has also been proud to be associated with the left side of the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295832e3456a74d3b8912ef5cf9c25a5c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is the member\u2019s point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022666f7186a48a4bcea17503392c26778d\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: The point is this, Mr Speaker. My question to you is whether it is right to censure the member for using the term that aptly describes the Minister and bears out what he himself has put out in his own press releases as being a normal statement in referring to him in this way, as a \u201Clefty pinko peacenik\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002271b9a48784a14edc80417e285d0a1807\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271b9a48784a14edc80417e285d0a1807\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has now repeated the comment. He will leave the Chamber. I am not having my ruling questioned. I say to members that as far as I am concerned, I dealt with the subject. When comments are made that are quite clearly unparliamentary, they have to be withdrawn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003ERon Mark withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229643b6d7fcb7459391a91cc4cd6807d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What happened here today happens so frequently in this House. A very clear question was put by Mr Hide that asked what the Government\u2019s position was. Everyone heard the question. No reference was made whatsoever to any decision being made by the military, or any member of it. Instead the Minister launched into a tirade, an attack, an accusation of blatant disloyalty on the part of Mr Hide, and at no time did you raise a mutter, a murmur, or a finger. Now you have kicked one of my colleagues out of the House because he, like Mr Hide, was validly raising a point of order that should have been dealt with, and an apology should have come from the Minister. It should have been asked for from the moment he said it. Now we have a member out of the House, and if you think that is fair treatment, I do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c6fc226dfc43a79b4a75eee9a69b50\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do, and I am not having any further comments from the member. I will not have my judgment questioned in that way. The member will now stand, withdraw, and apologise for those comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c85356e59cad415595617b27555acbb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809119a7efd340b2853a8629278e2744\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the front page of the coalition joint task force Operation Iraqi Freedom website listing New Zealand as one of the coalition partners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292f558fecfc24a098dad7097da6ccb65\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879d9cf7874248318021797bf9d66f2c\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have dealt, as you are entitled to do, very firmly with two members in the course of this exchange. However, having ruled that a member had taken offence, you asked the Minister to withdraw the comments that had caused the offence but did not ask him to apologise for the offence. I put it to you that in the spirit of the exchange, that would be called for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf46ba067d044889dd12b9e8acf82d5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is fair enough. I ask the Minister also to apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7552f8304904d70a8dc431ec1fa3fe2\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: And apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3b659147d6349f8a55fe43e040f4404\u0022\u003EGenetically Modified Sweetcorn\u2014Monsanto Contract\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a86db64ef84029af966c6c7355a88b\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Food Safety: Did Monsanto sign a statutory declaration, as part of its application to Food Standards Australia New Zealand for approval of GM corn MON 863, declaring that it had not withheld any information that might prejudice its application; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u00224c1f6477981e4bf18fe12e2187abd189\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c1f6477981e4bf18fe12e2187abd189\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for Food Safety: I am advised that Monsanto both provided and honoured the terms of the statutory declaration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da35784f235c43758e75c92f3044ca86\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: In its application to Food Standards Australia New Zealand, did Monsanto withhold a study that suggested that genetically modified corn MON 863 had caused abnormalities in rats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d812e99a519c48eabb90584602d34800\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The study to which the member refers was a 90-day feeding study considering nutritional aspects. It was not a toxicity study, and therefore was not a food safety concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec8a0d642414278a148f365a483d212\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that a study showing that a genetically engineered corn had caused abnormalities in rats is exactly the sort of prejudicial evidence that signing the Food Standards Australia New Zealand statutory declaration makes it illegal to withhold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587ee01121034da2ae6397053e99c3d1\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I have previously advised the House, when the study to which the member refers was published, the whole matter was examined by the country of jurisdiction\u2014France. The French food safety authority found that the corn was perfectly safe to consume.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8dd38c299974561809c245ea70b6007\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister did not answer my question. My question was whether that was the sort of study that it would be prejudicial to withhold, given that it was information that might prejudice Monsanto\u2019s application. The Minister did not answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979397568e844c7c93e345a97aaee935\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister wishes to comment, he can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a369c7cf11f4d7dadc2ce4e842d32f3\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: In my reply to the first supplementary question I pointed out that the study to which the member refers was a nutritional study, and was nothing to do with food safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a58e6ae1017e49f3b0e960dbc10087b7\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that the Government considers it acceptable for a corporation to withhold a study that showed abnormalities in rats when seeking approval for that food for human consumption?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4d6b88a076f428a9b7d2cee76bd1004\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The study was obviously not conducted by Monsanto, and it has been discredited by the proper food safety authority of the country in which it was conducted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b94c27660072419683462bd73cabb55e\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked the Minister whether he thought it was acceptable for Monsanto to withhold a nutritional feeding study as part of an application for approval into the food supply. The Minister has not answered my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276208cd02673401fa622fbc64595b6d6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister did address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267fd6a412bd540ae828cbd478e1e3cf5\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Has Food Standards Australia New Zealand received the original study and the original data from Monsanto that it sought more than 10 days ago, after the Green Party had informed it that the study had been withheld?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd55d2f1acd24714a12730d7adb0af08\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I have no advice on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278caaac0762a48b9b96518bf955cc06e\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister say he has had no advice on that when I spoke to the head of our office of Food Safety Australia New Zealand on The Terrace, who said it had not received the study; how can it possibly be the case that the Minister did not? And why should New Zealanders have any confidence in the Food Safety Australia New Zealand approval process for genetically modified food if corporations are allowed to make fraudulent statutory declarations and withhold studies that may prejudice their applications, and Food Safety Australia New Zealand fails to act on those serious matters of concern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fddc8b0df01426b8c6d0408315eb0eb\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, in relation to first part of the member\u2019s question, she has already obtained a response directly from the department, so she has no need for elaboration by me. But I must say in respect of the rest of her question that it is notable that sometimes when people want to ignore the results of a study, they find a way. For example, I am advised that there are high concentrations of carcinogens in the tar content that comes from cannabis, and lots of people still campaign to legalise the stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd8606796dc94eb99a4975f5aecdbc37\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I fail to see the relevance of that response to the question that was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220042c456364c46018976775b1800f054\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am just a little disturbed about these points of order. I will judge whether a question has been addressed. That reply certainly did address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b780d0649cf34d52a46f36cf1a408a8d\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Will Food Safety Australia New Zealand be seeking a formal review of MON 863 now that it has come to light that Monsanto withheld a study showing abnormalities in rats; in the light of that new information will it be undertaking a formal review of that application?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd53f113ed674dc78039974f79d57d3d\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly is the practice of Food Safety Australia New Zealand to review its decisions and its data when credible new data are received. In this case, however, I am bound to point out that I am advised that so far not a single case has been discovered of anyone coming to harm from eating food that contained an ingredient derived from a genetically modified organism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae0b3393161b4343870b304ea1220d08\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Law Reform Bill\u2014Non-union Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e5103f0f8044034a706db574e945a5d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What consultation was carried out with the nearly 1.7 million non-union workers in New Zealand during the development of the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3bf1e91f70d482f95bbf0dda8f06df9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3bf1e91f70d482f95bbf0dda8f06df9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E There was extensive opportunity for non-union employees to have input into the development of the bill. For example, during the 9 months that the bill was being considered by the select committee, which advertised for submissions, it received 354 substantive submissions, over 7,000 form submissions, and heard 202 submissions over some 62 hours of sitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c36b3cfd113642688a3ab85d740e61f2\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not ask any questions about the select committee process. Frankly, the Minister has no responsibility for it. I asked him what consultation was undertaken by his department in the formation of the bill known as the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill. If the answer is no, then he should just say so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022094f414024c4461c8eb5f4a8e199ef20\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not the question that the member asked. If the member reads the question he will see that it stated: \u201CWhat consultation was carried out with the nearly 1.7 million non-union workers in New Zealand during the development of the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill?\u201D. Part of that is obviously part of the select committee process in terms of the question asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df4e04bc2f824f21a732bd589e01fc78\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We would not have asked this question in this way if we were uncertain about what the Minister\u2019s responsibilities were. The Minister is not responsible for a select committee process. He is not responsible for bus timetables, either, but it would seem that if he wants to stand up and give us some information off a bus timetable, then that would stand as an answer in this House. This is a specific question about what consultation his department took with non-union workers\u20141.7 million of them\u2014prior to that bill coming into the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f65c945794a4c63a6227623b39f2825\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: One thing the Minister is not responsible for is whether the question is poorly framed. The question asked: \u201C\u2026 during the development of the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill?\u201D. The fact is that a bill develops at all stages up to its third reading passage. The Minister is perfectly entitled to refer to the consultation process by a select committee, which is a process this Parliament ought to be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d62646dac41f46ea9902c8af9d1efce4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will say again\u2014and my word will be accepted on this\u2014that I have judged this question and the answer. The answer did address the actual question asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d170824f92114fa8b95eeda4e220b9f8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Are you ruling that from this point on, Ministers have some responsibility for the select committee process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e087a6e842947f795ba04e655a47796\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not. The Minister is not responsible for select committees, but he is the Minister in charge of the bill and can be asked about its process through the House. That is one of the points he was answering when the question was asked. The question did not ask what the member thought it asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd2507fbe28442f9fbad556c82e7314\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister\u2019s department any figures on how much extra revenue will be raised by the union movement from the imposition of a bargaining fee arrangement of 1.7 million New Zealanders who will be forced to pay union dues, and, as a consequence, fund the Labour Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc7f592aff6044a7998351926b112fcf\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is enormously difficult to answer that question, given that it is so ridiculous. The reality is that the member has implied that somehow 1.7 million people will pay union fees. He knows that to be not true. The fact of the matter is that bargaining-fee arrangements, which will be tabled shortly, have to meet three tests\u2014firstly, agreement between union and employer; secondly, there has to be a ballot of all the workforce; and, thirdly, anyone who does not want to pay a bargaining fee does not have to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979c44c688e34acaba31b426da05f840\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I listened very carefully to the question asked by Mr Gerry Brownlee. It asked what information the Minister\u2019s department had given him. He has not addressed that question. He was specifically asked whether his department had done any work, etc. The Minister did not address that question. That was a very specific question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd263f5ab3a74dccb6cc9bf16e326b22\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can briefly answer that particular specific question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6cf8ef155a143eab0788db4775317ac\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the question was not correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2ea6f7ce6a743cb9609e426eab4bd2b\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In the course of responding to the supplementary question asked by Mr Brownlee, the Minister\u2019s first statement was to describe the supplementary question as \u201Cridiculous\u201D. I ask you whether that is an acceptable way of a Minister commencing an answer to a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022967f99e95d6f433fb5bfb3becd8d5b84\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If that was all that was said, it would not be, and I would have stepped in. Comments like that are quite often made by way of interjection and by way of comment about questions. Certainly, if that was the only thing that was said, it would have been completely out of order. I have told the Minister to get on and address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022607594d8024e485ea69b42f25f82bd87\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen about the ability of employers to pay union and non-union staff the same rates of pay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f71d0d3d4d5b411fad906e7393ea345a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report that states that the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill means that non-union staff cannot be paid the same amount as union staff. I have seen another report that dismisses such a claim. The first report is from Don Brash, Leader of the Opposition, and the second report is from associate professor Gordon Anderson, an employment law expert. I know whom I would believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9234e8a37de4de3b6c5ed38e44cd2dd\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s earlier answer about a payment and a bargaining fee, will he give this House an assurance that it will be a breach of good faith and treated very, very severely if any non-union person, or employer, is compelled in any way, shape, or form to pay a bargaining fee against his or her will?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237486bf3e60e47f5be01766a21572b93\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f83cd9f0e2594da19b5f53232a05a4be\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What consultation was carried out with the vast majority of employees who work in the private sector, who are five times less likely to belong to a union than those in the public sector, yet make a bigger contribution to the national economy, when they are the very workers who will be disadvantaged by the bill because they will be discriminated against for not belonging to a union?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d999af746c354a48b645d1dd666e4a67\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, there is quite a lot of opportunity for consultation. However, I say to the member that 90 percent of workers in the private sector are not covered by collective agreements and are not union members. The impact of that bill will be very, very small, indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb99de046e34e6e8517b55e319f1faf\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm to the House that associate professor Gordon Anderson, whom he has just quoted, is a left-wing activist who drafted part of the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions submission and has a considerable vested interest in not letting people know the full effect of the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d78c620a32946f39551f93198b1d426\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot comment on his pedigree, but I can say that he speaks real sense on this bill, compared with the leader of the National Opposition, Don Brash, who speaks absolute nonsense. I recommend that the member read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc3d7b050ee45798bba5e1ab8be5caa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first part of the member\u2019s question was in order and then started to stray. He certainly addressed it at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022457ce3be8d8042a0aafb4d08c780ab8c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to ask the Minister to give an answer to the question that was asked of him. How can he stand up here and so elo\u2014so fulsomely\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a42d7d46ea64523897030264ae11a5f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I saw the Hon Chris Carter start that set of interjections. I will ask him to leave the Chamber, and he will do it quietly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c28d1fb06e5d4cb0976e0cc86e3cd746\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was quite uncalled for during a point of order. I have made mistakes in diction, and so has just about every other person in this House. As far as I am concerned, Mr Brownlee did on this occasion, but he corrected it. I cannot see what is wrong with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e9e8391a2494c7699c01ea0be7143ad\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That is very true. I meant to say \u201Celegantly\u201D, and of course, I was referring to his tie! He talked so glowingly about associate professor Gordon Anderson, who is touted to be an expert of some note, and then told us that he did not know what his qualifications were. That is not congruous with that answer. He should correct himself, or add more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022028d83e180ec4130bc18195e18678d87\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. He was asked whether he was a left-wing activist. He could have well been asked whether he was a right-wing inactivist, but that was the point at which the Minister did not have an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224190379b39384f4696fe4fcd88a81781\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b9c8c30ea3c481fa7f11551593d1143\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, please be seated. The question was addressed, but there were comments at the end of the answer that were unnecessary. The Minister should have been more terse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc52baf087384e658f3c9deabc00b798\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What he did not tell us was\u2014and given that it would seem that he is an expert on the select committee process and he was relying on that process to advise him so much\u2014did associate professor Anderson write the Council of Trade Unions submission, or part of it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd5a8f2290b486b987c9198de2231b3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is not responsible for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a5adb927f74465eb28f98f693aeffb2\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2140a2b2c5f4c12a5142a9b358a53c0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This had better be an actual point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65c89afd6cb4abd9fc0b5dc1b037b62\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly is, because it could lead to disorder if we do not get the matter sorted out. The Minister has said that this gentleman is an expert of some note. I would like to know\u2014and this is the nub of my question\u2014whether he knows that by virtue of the fact that this professor wrote a substantial part of the Council of Trade Unions submission he has quite a vested interest in making sure that people do not fully understand the effects of this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d00f91202c40c1b40b2738028b7cc9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As far as I am concerned, the question was asked about this particular gentleman. The Minister is not responsible for this gentleman\u2019s submission\u2014he can give an opinion on it, but he is not responsible for the actual submission itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b5ed9cf6b243eb9ab0fef861dfe582\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give the House some estimate of how many non-union members will be forced to pay a bargaining fee under this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254fe27e40b0f45ca999e219f28c5f7cb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No. Very few.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002292c22b3f9cce4cdbba6d6cc1666b1830\u0022\u003EClimate Change\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000148\u0022\u003EResolutions\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214e72cfcd37740cb8f366e93efe1dfe3\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago)\u003C/span\u003E to the Convenor, Ministerial Group on Climate Change: What reports has he received on the need to take action on climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac83dd27ffc241a189965a40777f32e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac83dd27ffc241a189965a40777f32e4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Convenor, Ministerial Group on Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen a number of reports. Both the Opposition leader and the Prime Minister of the UK say that climate change will have catastrophic consequences. Both of them back the science and both realise that tackling climate change is good for business. However, another report doubts the science and states that taking action would be bad for business. Who is out of step with prevailing world opinion, yet again? The National Party of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff9156de882d483b820e9e4ad8d2c21a\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen on the validity of climate change science and the impacts on business of addressing climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f64f90eb466e4dd89f0df0a188725333\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen two reports on that. One states that the problem is enormous and eventually will \u201Cstuff life on Earth\u201D. The other states that there is huge uncertainty about this. Whose statements are as erratic as the climate? Why, those of Nick Smith and the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229881a24a3f694313a1a900cd08aefb3e\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government\u2019s proposal to levy a carbon charge on fossil fuels in order to incorporate the costs of the climate change they cause dependent on President Putin\u2019s decision to ratify the Kyoto Protocol; and does he think that if Putin does not ratify, the problem of climate change will go away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022945fe35e3b964f38a298c21d5235c331\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to the first question is so that the Government can approximate the likely international cost of carbon. The second answer is, no, I do not think it will go away\u2014I am sure it will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224aa63d8c4e634acba81d28c685b7cfed\u0022\u003EPolice, Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0a40d551de246639ed60c30d6b22f96\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she still have confidence in the Minister of Police; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c091b2a9c6ea4c4ca250d12c89c41612\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c091b2a9c6ea4c4ca250d12c89c41612\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes, because he remains a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e8c5ba35aeb4a1997d33fb5b90211cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister why the jury was not told that Edwards knew McNee well before the night in question that led to the loss of McNee\u2019s life; and why is the Minister not interested in that information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215a04cd08a52428d9d7010c8cb3938eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Because the decision about the introduction of that evidence was taken solely by prosecuting counsel, as it should have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c126754e2e542609c57dfd390bf1620\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If that is true, could I ask the Prime Minister why the police are holding a press conference at 3.30 today to explain the position, when last week they said there was no need to have any review with regard to McNee\u2019s killing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281d49e37ee424c1f979c960e43192cf5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that, I think, an undertaking was given some time before, as to the police\u2019s release of the file subsequent to sentencing. Sentencing, I understand, occurred this morning. That is a matter for the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb830d70da394c79b9439ed30261e928\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why did every member of that jury agree that there was something missing in this trial in respect of the charge of murder, and believe that the police were holding something back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e7b73d1054c434caa1ee52af14ee902\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not responsible for what the jury have concluded. As I say, the decision about what evidence was attempted to be introduced was a matter for Crown counsel, but I have been advised that, in fact, the judgment was that the evidence would not have been allowed to be introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc14d44f3944e67b505f2b7025100ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the jury not told that McNee had taken a mixture of Viagra and amyl nitrite, which is a cocktail known to be a shared drug; and why was the jury not told that it was shared by Edwards on the night in question, and that experts know that it leads to psychotic behaviour\u2014a critical piece of evidence that the jury never heard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd34fdbe430f4b0db023fe94e943f686\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that the nature of the evidence that is introduced is a matter for prosecuting counsel. I would deplore any attempt to suggest that a politician should be responsible for the conduct, one way or the other, of trials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56354f2d96b46fdbd90fc793bce00fe\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given that a man will be out of prison within 4\u00BD years for what was clearly a murder\u2014if the evidence had been produced\u2014why did the judge tell the jury that nothing in Edwards\u2019 prior criminal record suggested he would commit murder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212bef43376f34901b1eea3a7d41a306e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is not responsible for the instructions that judges give to jurors. Once judges are appointed, they are independent. I would deplore any attempt to suggest that politicians should influence what judges say to jurors. As to when the person involved will be released from jail, that is a matter for the Parole Board, which might well take into account 56 previous convictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a7b30592baf46cab20be4de3f125856\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why would the Parole Board take into account 56 previous convictions, when Edwards\u2019 serious criminal activity did not come out during the trial, a trial in which the police alleged murder but failed to produce the evidence to sustain it; is the Minister not interested in justice, for someone who is a murderer will be out on our streets within 4\u00BD years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eca1cad5fe9a40b1b5d74a47977d771a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am certainly interested in justice. Part of justice, in a democratic system, is that Governments do not instruct judges, Governments do not instruct prosecuting counsel, and Governments do not instruct jurors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2342f68fc844f93b1f3296bd04d793a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Prime Minister whether there is a different standard of law when a homosexual is involved, to the extent that were this case in any way a \u201Cnormal\u201D case, there would surely have been a reaction, particularly from her Government, given its social policy stance; why is McNee\u2019s case different?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0faeba3dc6941b1952bad410c54439c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is not. It is the member who is asking for the case to be different by asking the Government to take action that it would not take in any other case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022319f81baeac2452dba89ff9c9cc7fc09\u0022\u003EForeign Charter Vessels\u2014Domestic Crew\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e01334fe43745609bd5b1c4f3e41a9a\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Fisheries: How many foreign charter vessels have been operating in New Zealand waters during the past 12 months, and how many of these vessels had a majority of New Zealand citizens on their fishing crews?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00220885e263b76d4771ae2c4636343141de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220885e263b76d4771ae2c4636343141de\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised by the Ministry of Fisheries that since 1 October 2003 New Zealand companies have chartered a total of 51 foreign vessels at various times to operate in New Zealand waters. I am also advised that the ministry does not hold information on the citizenship of the crews of any vessels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dba71b99a2294add9ced7e6b951964d2\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government committed to putting New Zealand fishermen and New Zealand quota holders first, or at least on a level playing field, in the harvesting of our resources in our exclusive economic zone; if so, what plans does the Minister have to deal with the imbalance being created by the overuse of foreign charter vessels with foreign crews?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229655df5ed9c444dda460128c134fceb7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I would be reluctant to see measures taken that required a company to invest millions of dollars in buying fishing vessels when capital could be more efficiently spent on other parts of a business. I understand that charter vessels are considered by many involved in the fishing industry to be a cost-effective means of obtaining the necessary catch capacity and dealing with the very seasonal nature of some fisheries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb87e8c8eca47c2997c1ef74f5af629\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that of all the New Zealand fishing crews employed in New Zealand waters, none have their lodging, food, or board deducted from their wages; if so, why do foreign fishing crews, apparently under the same New Zealand laws, have their lodging, food, and board deducted\u2014therefore undercutting New Zealand crews?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a6d83a75c1a4c06b743dfc62c5d82e4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I think that question is properly one for my colleague the Minister of Labour, but I am aware of the undertaking that Mr Swain gave to a questioner, Mr Adams, in the House on that matter yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5f3595002554bd98a71c85e20e4dc35\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Do all those foreign charter vessels have Ministry of Fisheries observers on board; if not, is that because it is difficult to find people willing to live in the poor conditions that prevail on many of those boats, such as having to eat half-boiled squid for 6 weeks on end?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255edddeea1674c779a9b8cfae6d184d0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: The conditions on fishing vessels do vary. However, I am advised that, generally, the quality of accommodation on vessels does not preclude the placement of observers on board. I am further advised that the availability of accommodation can be a problem on both New Zealand and foreign charter vessels. In fact, it tends to be more of an issue with New Zealand vessels, which are on average smaller. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240fbfbde1ad94afb8fc19a77f79e3ef3\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: In the absence of observers, how can the New Zealand public be reassured that foreign charter vessels are operating under New Zealand rules, and that their catches are being correctly recorded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022921d78934176436d9a1711f05ef7813e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Observers are not always absent, and the ministry has the capacity, when necessary, to ensure they are on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f0e24a60ccc4ba89e6487c98675a431\u0022\u003EHuman Rights Review Tribunal\u2014Chairperson\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db6cc45694cb426ba27ab5224e931b9e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Courts: Who approved the \u201Cspecial arrangement\u201D with the chairperson of the Human Rights Review Tribunal, which saw him get paid almost $300,000 last year, and what knowledge did Ministers have of this \u201Cspecial arrangement\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00221b798bf475094896aee92a62e8a41648\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b798bf475094896aee92a62e8a41648\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E The chairperson was appointed on a part-time basis. It later became clear that the caseload required a full-time position. Cabinet approved the establishment of a full-time position in the 2004-05 Budget. Until this position is established and an appropriate remuneration set, the existing chairperson has been working greatly increased hours at a rate that covers his time and also the costs of servicing his office. That arrangement was recommended by the Department for Courts, and the Minister at the time was aware of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022118e838ac6ab4a8fb0e0335962f7c05a\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Government justify paying the part-time head of a peripheral tribunal more cash than, say, the Prime Minister of New Zealand\u2014a tribunal that thinks one of the worst killers in our country\u2019s prisons should be paid $1,200 in compensation for hurt feelings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6750a3dd7c64ee7966708f00123b2ff\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The rate that was agreed to with the head of the tribunal was slightly more than what the Crown engages Crown solicitors for. The rate is not only for the hours worked but also covers the maintenance of an office. That includes costs for staff, holiday pay, accident compensation, office rental, insurance, information technology and software systems\u2014all of those elements have to be paid by that chairperson out of the hourly rate he has. The Prime Minister\u2019s salary and judges\u2019 salaries are separate. In addition to their salaries, all the extra support services are paid for either by the Ministry of Justice in the case of judges or by Ministerial Services in the case of the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236575f53e86e4eef89f19f160ca9d713\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: What caused the department to increase the hours of work for the Human Rights Review Tribunal chairperson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef2c9e2846a349119c1e2789b745c7fb\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was concern about the build-up of cases and the need to provide a timely service to claimants. In October 2003 there was a backlog of 57 cases at the tribunal. Today, there is no backlog. I am sure the Opposition would join with me in saying that that is an excellent result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbac0557f5c14da2b0ff8a330e44c1e0\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Knowing the Prime Minister\u2019s pledge to end the culture of extravagance, why did no Cabinet Minister express any concern about paying a part-time chairman a salary that puts him above a Court of Appeal judge and makes him one of the State\u2019s top earners, and why did this Minister not express any concern at all about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022594cceba1fee4b41913fa7f45b0b4247\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That member continues to misrepresent the situation, but firstly, no Cabinet Minister expressed concern because we have taken action. The position will be a full-time, permanent position, and the remuneration for that individual will be set by the Remuneration Authority. The misrepresentation is that this payment is not just a salary; it is also a rate that incorporates the maintenance of chambers, the payment of staff, information technology systems, etc., which the basic salary for a High Court judge does not incorporate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d535f4622a6240aaa69e14846ecc3c1d\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister seriously telling the House that when the Minister approved this special arrangement, it was always his intention to make the position a full-time one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec012c0c6fe458aa2da8cc72d226c44\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly the Government\u2019s intention to make this a full-time position, and I want to make sure\u2014and I am confident\u2014that that will be concluded in November this year. But at the time that the decision was made, I was not the Minister, and I cannot say what was in the former Minister\u2019s mind. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022530d7722987b4a379eaaad97b6aa3041\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is responsible, but the Minister can say that it was a decision of the former Minister. He can answer, or say that he does not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d34047796af4e18a8bba17d535bc19b\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know what was in the mind of the former Minister, but I can tell the House that the Government\u2019s intention is to regularise this position, and it will be fixed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a1b69f3098545c0bbb59d1c03dde508\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If this Minister is so keen to justify that extraordinary level of payment, which is beyond what a Court of Appeal judge receives, why were the details of that special arrangement suppressed when the papers were released under the Official Information Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d22228ae7947148732b0a661532195\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The fact is that this is not an arrangement that sees the individual paid more in a salary than a High Court judge, because a High Court judge is paid a salary for a justice, and the costs of running the office are met separately by the Ministry of Justice. The member is not comparing apples with apples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e95a1f0f434426b7aaadc2e364aada\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now the Minister will come to the member\u2019s question: why was the information blacked out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f324ed635a54b4bae8ab71bf88f9ae9\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I presume it was because those details were relevant to the particular individual, and were of a confidential nature. If the member does not like the fact that they were blacked out, he has a right of appeal in terms of that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e607715293064d309461bd9e8f7b2a1e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a number of documents. The first is the budget proposal for the Human Rights Review Tribunal restructuring, in which the information was blacked out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDocuments not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc2fe8705f4c56a6a8621bb8d7d8a3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: The second set of documents is the answers to written questions where the Minister provided the full information that had been blacked out in the original document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610482bd8c3f41d1b1207283a40492c5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f66f435c06d346e8aa545c6c3b8b278a\u0022\u003EUnemployment\u2014Youth Statistics\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b1f23b0cf3c40c48338043af0261a0b\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Tainui)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Youth Affairs: What recent reports has he received on trends in youth unemployment in New Zealand and how do they compare internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00220ce0b43159c94f5c843494adb4a605ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ce0b43159c94f5c843494adb4a605ed\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E According to a recent ILO report, youth unemployment has skyrocketed worldwide over the past decade. At the same time, youth unemployment in New Zealand has fallen dramatically. Since this Government took office, nearly 30,000 jobs have been created for young people. Key initiatives, as announced by the Hon Steve Maharey, to continue to reduce youth unemployment include the Youth Transitions Service, which brings together central and local government; improved career guidance through schools; and the Modern Apprenticeships scheme, which are all gainfully being used to help our youth sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280729cdd03e5470a9d4c4bec74c53cf5\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: What other data has he seen about trends in youth unemployment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276dbb1f333d348b1b0e6e040f94284af\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that youth unemployment has fallen nearly 50 percent since 1998. The 1990s was one of the worst periods of youth unemployment that this country has ever seen, with the added health difficulties that this creates. What is even more galling is the party that oversaw that is the only party in this House that does not have a youth affairs spokesperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253461032fe2a4401a13887c94c36738b\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that industry training is a vital factor to reduce youth unemployment; if so, what resources will he commit to the goal of one-quarter of a million people participating in industry training by the year 2007, given the current paltry number of slightly over 12,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2410a26a1c9493cad49fe9025640885\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: That matter falls under the responsibility of the Hon Steve Maharey. Notwithstanding that, I can indicate that significant resources have been poured into the area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table a document that clearly expresses that the National Party has no concern for a youth spokesperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c091bc9c3b6548809f1e600b9345a062\u0022\u003EResource Management Act\u2014Rights\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f7d8c06deac4894b01a89a15d53fbdf\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for the Environment: Will his proposed changes to the Resource Management Act 1991 ensure that M\u0101ori New Zealanders have no extra rights than non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders with respect to the application of that Act; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac9b26b6fd084fcbb29e77b4fc51f785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac9b26b6fd084fcbb29e77b4fc51f785\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The comprehensive package of improvements to the Resource Management Act has sought to clarify the rights established by the National Party Government in the 1991 Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc34646bdb04f068b670d32cb34c795\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that by creating a direct reference to iwi co-management in legislation he is explicitly asserting that M\u0101ori do have special rights and privileges; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa09b0bfc69e412a80f0dc1781e17a6c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: The Act is silent as to how decision makers should give effect to the principles of the treaty, but the proposed changes are to improve the quality of engagement with iwi authorities at the front end of the planning process. In terms of resource consents, iwi will have the same opportunities to participate in the consent process as any other person affected by an activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1a25e8467e4b0f9ce4cef14649c4e8\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Government proposed to improve clarity on consultation obligations of local authorities, iwi, and applicants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a659d27cadc493bb5d63d5fb7aa45d7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Local authorities will be required to keep a register of iwi authorities prepared by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri. In terms of resource consents, iwi will have the same opportunities to participate as any other person affected by an activity. Local authorities will be required only to undertake reasonable endeavours to consult with iwi authorities or other parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac634ddf6034037b24774c7bae1638d\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen research by the International Global Change Institute, which found: \u201CMost district plans had very limited reference to, or content associated with, issues of importance to M\u0101ori or iwi.\u201D, and can he confirm that nothing in his proposals will improve that situation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fe23e8ae69045b7aff8c432f64584c7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not seen that document, and I would be grateful if the questioner would provide me with a copy. I can say that I am very heartened by the development, as shown in the recent report from Local Government New Zealand, of much more extensive relationships with iwi in their localities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3827c6aeb7c4948a43b55bf3adf9cd5\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that I have written a letter to him pointing out it is impossible for our courts to interpret the metaphysical, as evidenced by the Tongariro power decision, and suggesting that the Resource Management Act clarify that physical, rather than metaphysical, matters should be taken into account; and will he give that idea his consideration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a20cb2071ae749de83c36efee56930f3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not aware of that letter; I have not received it to date. I can say that I think most New Zealanders would never consider building a motorway, for example, through a cemetery without consulting affected people, nor would we allow a development to run through an ancient archaeological site. I think most New Zealanders would agree that it is appropriate to consider spiritual and metaphysical matters as part of a consent process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225071b7ec1534201b5a5b54afafe8615\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: If M\u0101ori are not getting extra rights as a result of his proposed amendments, what did he mean yesterday when he said: \u201CCouncils will involve iwi in developing policy.\u201D; and rather than solving any issues in this area, has he not just perpetuated them by putting them in statute?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e151ac5ec94d308b8f7be7befb9954\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: No, anyone can be involved in policy development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229342ccc36a1449eca8e8e06e75c2e38f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Has Te Puni K\u014Dkiri compiled the theoretical list of M\u0101ori with tangata whenua status, along with the relevant people whom councils will need to consult; if so, when will councils around New Zealand get to see that list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef0225d5cf94e6286f172139eb5efb5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have no idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f60edbd4ba0843448301b1badcc98b30\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Has Minister Mallard reviewed this policy to ascertain whether the M\u0101ori privileges relate to a need or are simply a race privilege; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222140af06e84c41f7ba47ff938360706f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a question for the Hon Trevor Mallard. I would like the member to bring his question into the responsibility of the Hon David Benson-Pope. The way that the member has asked the question is not in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df3db1d25504b02a1dd33b9cd453386\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister obtained advice from the Hon Trevor Mallard in terms of his performing his duty to review all Government programmes to ascertain whether they represent a response to a need or are simply a race privilege; if so, what is the nature of that advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a55df7259694a9981a77e0118bf2500\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: No. I do not believe such advice is necessary on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221396a893da0f46d9af2d52c1f8846deb\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table yesterday\u2019s document about improving the Resource Management Act, which quite clearly states that the difficulties in solving these issues require the identification of local M\u0101ori with tangata whenua status, and that this job will be completed by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri and given to councils in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd1ea583beaf448cbb273adc615b606f\u0022\u003EAlgerian Refugee\u2014Immigration, Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cedc4313730456288967c453e632b37\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the inquiries, if any, made by the Minister of Immigration into the alleged part played by Wahib Zaza and Rabir, alias Roberto, in Ahmed Zaoui\u2019s arrival in New Zealand; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002251b9b621b98e4050869a3fc23148d9fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251b9b621b98e4050869a3fc23148d9fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes. I am advised that the New Zealand Immigration Service has carried out inquiries, but those have not substantiated claims the member has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242756084b18b4ff7827628f2d6cc71d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister referred to the decision of the Refugee Status Appeals Authority, which states: \u201CThe appellant went into hiding. He discussed the situation with X, who counselled against going to Australia, where he would be held in detention, and recommended that he come to New Zealand. The appellant had read of the New Zealand Prime Minister\u2019s humanitarian response to the Tampa crisis, and felt encouraged to approach the New Zealand authorities.\u201D; and is X Wahib Zaza?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022456b451cd5234ad7a7146131e88d54bf\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not familiar with that document, so I cannot say who X is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ec4cb36e6494de89d9b7e9fd7e845ab\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I read further in that document from the Refugee Status Appeals Authority, at paragraph 286, which states: \u201CThe appellant no longer had his Burkino Faso passport, it having been through the wash accidentally. Accordingly, he purchased a South African passport on the black market, and after making arrangements for his family he travelled via Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, and Korea to New Zealand, arriving here on 4 December 2002.\u201D; and is it not a fact that a man called Rabir, alias Roberto\u2014alerted to the Prime Minister last week\u2014got that passport organised for Ahmed Zaoui, falsely so, too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d52bf5e3e42c46698870827607885bb0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly clear that the passport was falsely obtained. Indeed, I might say that it is a forged passport not a falsely obtained passport; there are differences between those two things. But no evidence has been found of a \u201CRabir, alias Roberto\u201D being involved in this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257cd1985a8d8496695c435ec54c917a5\u0022\u003EHon Matt Robson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that the advice given to Mr Ahmed Zaoui to come to New Zealand rather than Australia was one by Mr Samir Bennegadi, who is a nuclear physicist and Algerian citizen, and an Australian citizen as well, and who is employed at Lucas Heights, and by the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) leadership, who are lawfully in Paris, because they believed that New Zealand would provide natural justice and not detain him and treat him as unfairly as they thought Australia would?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221941b642d05e443890a6036324ab62ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure it is correct that New Zealand will provide natural justice, but this one has been drawn out for so long it is becoming somewhat unnatural.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022016bb0252aeb4b3b97ccaecb7b6e7ba3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister not deny the fact that Ahmed Zaoui came here because, as the Refugee Status Appeals Authority says in its document, he believed we would be a soft option, and now we have passed over $1 million of wasted expenditure on a man adjudged by three First World OECD countries to be a terrorist; and how is that fair to the New Zealand taxpayer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bdc03cd9ea04d3cb3567816a44f6bc6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly true that New Zealand takes a humanitarian approach, but the Government\u2019s position for a very considerable time now is that it would be better for the legal dancing to end and for the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security to be able to get on and complete his work, and then the process can be taken through to conclusion. The Government can then review the legislation passed by the National Party to work out why it has proved to be so incompetent in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5f45b45daf64dbea1e38b5dbc85364a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why has legislation to do with terrorism been invoked in the Irving case, but in the case of Ahmed Zaoui all we get is the hard-working taxpayer being screwed on a monthly basis, now to the tune of over $1 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d08a3fd724a942778356c5064c3b0562\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has every sympathy with the member\u2019s view, that the current Act is proving inadequate in its first implementation. This is the first time the current legislation has been used, and it clearly needs to be reviewed. Of course, in the case of Mr Irving, he has stated that if he manages to get on a plane and get off in New Zealand, he may consider claiming refugee status. It would be hard to see how he could be a refugee from the United Kingdom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbda1e8bd53b429cb3a38ca16c1b32c1\u0022\u003ETertiary Students\u2014M\u0101ori Participation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b420d21-23ae-4857-b5ab-8cff62b532d1\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb248d888394f49af42756e858124d3\u0022\u003EDONNA AWATERE HUATA (Independent)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education): Is he confident that M\u0101ori participation in tertiary education will continue to rise, as in the past 5 years; if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00226fa96d79b7e84dad974a034c0f3bab4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fa96d79b7e84dad974a034c0f3bab4a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)):\u003C/span\u003E I doubt whether it will be possible for participation to grow at such a phenomenal rate in the future. In the past 5 years the number of M\u0101ori involved in formal tertiary education rose by more than 175 percent, to reach 20 percent of the adult M\u0101ori population\u2014higher than for the population as a whole, for which the figure is 13.4 percent. For participation to carry on rising like that would clearly not be a possibility. I note, however, that some other encouraging trends are coming through from M\u0101ori study\u2014that is, more people are doing degree and post-graduate study\u2014and we are encouraged by the fact that the number of M\u0101ori enrolled at the degree level rose by 30 percent in the past 5 years, compared with 16 percent for the population as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b420d21-23ae-4857-b5ab-8cff62b532d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d49717a3b9c4b2997997d06c77bf3fa\u0022\u003EDonna Awatere Huata\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in the past 5 years the number of M\u0101ori participating in tertiary education doubled in the courses delivered by whare w\u0101nanga; if so, how long will he continue to cap their growth, when they have achieved an outcome in 5 years that it took New Zealand schools 120 years to achieve, especially since w\u0101nanga can demonstrate that a much higher level of M\u0101ori students who begin on community or level 1 and 2 courses has gone to diploma and degree courses than any other kind of tertiary institution can?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0bc22a00f744ab2bfc5a1e452b6db49\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that a good deal of that growth has come from the extraordinary efforts of the w\u0101nanga, but in negotiating a limit to the enrolments with them the point was made that that kind of extraordinary growth needs to be measured with quality. That is what they agreed with, and that is what they are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227936aa2abfa842afb8128bc4c2400ec3\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: Why do M\u0101ori students have to achieve the same standards of achievement as their fellow students in order to gain a qualification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bffc88d69596455c883d4a131659a6c0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, M\u0101ori students have to achieve the same standards in order to pass the same courses. It is, therefore, unfortunate that earlier this year in, I think, an effort to gain political points, the point was made by the Leader of the Opposition, Dr Don Brash, that M\u0101ori did not have to achieve the same standards. That was utterly wrong, and I am yet to hear him apologise to those students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b1e7988d0e34772b5d34e9de951debc\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why do tertiary institutions such as the w\u0101nanga seem to be able to engage many M\u0101ori in learning, when our secondary schools fail so miserably to do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e46ea7f48a841e9a8bfc75b28df4a4d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: That is an excellent question. It is one that I think is answered by the way that w\u0101nanga have gone about reaching into communities that other institutions were not prepared to reach into. For example, I remember visiting the Huntly area prior to the w\u0101nanga gearing up, and finding about 75 students were involved in tertiary education. When I returned once they were in full swing, I found that about 700 students had been engaged, and that was simply because of the way that the w\u0101nanga had reach into communities that had otherwise not been attended to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9de8eceb764d67921a5a0fb55da112\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that he gave $500,000 for Dr Pita Sharples to develop a curriculum for a M\u0101ori university, in partnership with the Waipareira Trust, but that the curriculum has not been developed; if so, what steps is the Government taking to get the money back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208d3676893ea45f0b3b171086ddcf01f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that a small grant was given to a group of people in the west Auckland area to have a look at a university. We have been unhappy with the progress of that, and a long, long time ago that money was stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220957f20eedd240daa958b17652a1678e\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Now that the land purchased by the Waipareira Trust for that M\u0101ori university is being used for housing development, and may be sold by mortgagee sale by the Waitakere City Council, will he move to recover the $500,000 given to Dr Pita Sharples, the co-leader of the M\u0101ori Party, for the university; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f54afb8bf74462a76daef54a542191\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The amount of money mentioned by the member, from my memory, was never given to Dr Sharples. A smaller amount of money than that was made available for work that has been accounted for, but, as I said, we have stopped providing that funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022012b0d51b11f4215b8076d961fa0e644\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the money made available for curriculum development for the proposed tertiary institution is held in trust and requires the signature of a group, including a judge, before it can be released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f792521729e483fb5ec22c4c803d543\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: That was an excellent question, and I can confirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a049889ff640ed92bcced825081787\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister was able to explain to us why he believes the w\u0101nanga have succeeded in engaging many M\u0101ori in learning, can he now explain to us why he believes our secondary schools still consistently fail to engage M\u0101ori students in learning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223caeb0bfb72e4446b5e5625c4494d39d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I am afraid that as that falls outside my delegation I will have to rely on my professional background, and I say so. I think, if I can do a short treatise on that for the benefit of the member, the argument, broadly speaking, is that the learning styles of M\u0101ori have not been well suited to mainstream education. The changes that are being made now in terms of M\u0101ori teachers in the classroom, the use of M\u0101ori language, the w\u0101nanga coming on stream, and different approaches to learning styles are the way to go in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256ad74767df1429b9b4cdf3a2eefb5fc\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder whether the Minister could clarify what the situation is, as from my understanding of his answers, yes, Dr Pita Sharples has received some money, and, yes, the money has been stopped. But, in fact, as a result of an excellent question, we now know that there is some money in a trust, so therefore how about telling the House exactly how much money is in the trust and why the Government stopped the funding; and can he remove any suggestion that in fact this Government is indirectly funding the M\u0101ori Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249b9e79e68ed4b60b2862b27af41e0ed\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell the member, to begin at the back of his question, that there is no way that this Government is indirectly funding the M\u0101ori Party. I am afraid I have to say to the member that there have been times during this year when I have not been in the House, for reasons that he knows about. This is one of them. I will have to get the facts and get back to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d6d22eace647cd9896e92d90440787\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table three documents. The first is the submission from Dr Pita Sharples, supported by John Tamihere, Dover Samuels, and David Cunliffe, for a M\u0101ori university\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c277523ca9416d9fdd22605041ef1d\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: The second document is a 50-page business plan, for which Dr Pita Sharples was paid $100,000, for a M\u0101ori university\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb962b0802dc442a94e0d80bcf051455\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fc03f718f4842d9abaa8b533bb1dd17\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: The third document is the advice from the ministry to the Minister, confirming that he should supply $500,000 for curriculum development and $100,000 for the business plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3e1b6953d9342b79a0f774364af6d18\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a648a2b169bf4cd7b0cd84c29565161e\u0022\u003EMinister of Police\u2014Allegations made by New Zealand First\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022e68f36d9083a42749ba815b09dfd5c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e68f36d9083a42749ba815b09dfd5c76\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday in the House New Zealand First List MP Ron Mark accused me of misrepresentation in respect of an allegation I made that the New Zealand First Party had called on the Minister of Police to breach the longstanding constitutional convention, relating to the separation of powers between the Minister of Police and the Commissioner of Police, by calling on the Minister to intervene in matters rightly the preserve of the police by accessing and reviewing police files. Therefore, I seek leave to table transcripts from the parliamentary website that clearly show that members of the New Zealand First Party have called on the Minister of Police to intervene by accessing and reviewing police files.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226834f822480c4c12a40aad182e328db1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202b313fbd42d46aaa969a5cfc7b0a1bc\u0022\u003EMember\u0027s Bill\u2014Prisoners\u0027 Human Rights\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00222b0112181e1b415b85cb0c5df41cf0dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b0112181e1b415b85cb0c5df41cf0dc\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a bill to achieve the end of the misuse of human rights law by criminals in prison. I realise that it is an unusual step to take. I have drafted this bill, and I believe that it would get the approval of the National Party. I seek leave to dispense\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e9986ee29f44f1380dd7433e8932a22\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that bill. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002257c971937c6f4360bcc2b769c8ca47f4\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002203b2e9aba18e4f5a824cdbaad24be98e\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Troops\u2014Withdrawal from Iraq\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022a319013bb9ee48c1a1cf078a2caa2bf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a319013bb9ee48c1a1cf078a2caa2bf2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Rodney Hide seeking to debate under Standing Order 373 the reported pulling out of New Zealand troops from Iraq. Newspaper speculation on a matter is not in itself a particular case of recent occurrence that would give grounds for a debate. In this case, the Minister of Defence is reported as having said that New Zealand is at the end of a commitment to provide aid and assistance to Iraq, and I am prepared to accept that that comment is a particular case involving ministerial responsibility. However, I do not consider that the drawing to a close of a commitment is in itself of sufficient importance to require a debate to be held on the matter today. The application is therefore denied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00221153d6be71234d8f9750cef57a4b7f37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221153d6be71234d8f9750cef57a4b7f37\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to reconsider, on the grounds that there is no more serious decision a Government can make than to send servicemen and servicewomen into harm\u2019s way overseas. Likewise, whatever your view is, a decision to bring the troops home and not provide a replacement is also a very serious decision for any Government to make. This decision is going to be debated up and down New Zealand and around the world. It will become debatable, potentially, in terms of the Australian elections and, indeed, the United States presidential elections. We expect in a parliamentary democracy that the Government would come down to the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261babbe7aa224cb78fa4d8c61e197ae0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member come to his point tersely. The member is challenging my ruling. It does not need to be debated in the House today. That is my ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918b86aeefd24828915d03267393c267\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: All I am asking is: when does it get debated and under what circumstances? What we learn is from the Dominion Post newspaper. We read about it there and we do not hear about it in this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226211e3f789e94101b92cb5aa44921c8a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is often the occasion. I am saying that this matter does not need to be debated in the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ef5fa9530e94098b2ffe45ba8d14404\u0022\u003EMaori Fisheries Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ef5fa9530e94098b2ffe45ba8d14404\u0022\u003ETe Ture Whenua Maori Amendment Bill (No 2) /Maori Land Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da9f2352ac9c46a5b0a80afa47594355\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00229b2cfca3ad464959ae6e4b6960ba3bd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b2cfca3ad464959ae6e4b6960ba3bd0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Maori Fisheries Bill and the Te Ture Whenua Maori Amendment Bill (No 2) / Maori Land Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. E ng\u0101 iwi, e ng\u0101 karangatanga maha o ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E[To the tribes and the many callings of the four winds, greetings, greetings, and greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThis is indeed an historic day. The Maori Fisheries Act 2004 will repeal and replace the Maori Fisheries Act 1989 and give effect to the model that has been developed by the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission, in consultation with M\u0101ori, for allocating fisheries settlement assets to iwi for the ultimate benefit of all M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders. I acknowledge the presence in the gallery today of many of the original architects and negotiators of the settlement. I also acknowledge those who are no longer with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EWhen we look back, we see that the origins of the fisheries settlement are surely entwined with those of the quota management system in the mid-1980s. The quota management system provoked M\u0101ori objection to the actions of the Government as unfair in creating and allocating property rights in fishing, and provided the means to address the treaty grievances of M\u0101ori over fisheries resources. By allocating rights to existing fishers, the Government was seen to be alienating property. However, this new property right, individual transferable quota, provided a currency with which the Government could address the claims for redress, and by buying the already allocated rights back from existing fishers rather than just taking them, this redress was achieved without creating new inequity. Of course, this was not an initiative without risk, but it was the vision and, indeed, in a political sense, the bravery of the architects and negotiators in seeking to find a resolution to outstanding issues, and to negotiate the 1992 settlement, that brought us to where we are today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EComments by the Hon Doug Kidd in the second reading debate of the 1992 settlement bill reflect well the tenacious spirit of those who were determined to make the settlement succeed. He challenged the knockers, telling the House: \u201CThe only contribution of those doomsayers amounts to saying that because something is difficult there is really no alternative but to do nothing; that to attempt anything is to expose oneself to risk; that the only comfortable existence is an existence in which one does nothing. Those same people are prepared to stand by, for generation after generation\u2014and there have been plenty like them before\u2014and to listen to the grieving of the Maori. They are prepared to explain it away, and to carry on enjoying the fruits that they have managed to garner for themselves. I am not one of those people. \u2026 I am proud to be involved, because I think that I have done the right thing.\u201D Mr Kidd also told the House that day: \u201CThere are those, of course, who would exploit difference and grievance, because they are a platform and base for a very crude type of popularism. I reject that approach utterly.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThose messages to politicians seem as valid today as they were on 3 December 1992. I would encourage members on the other side of the House to think on what can be achieved by participating constructively, and working to include, not alienate. It is sad indeed that the National Party of today does not show the principle or the generosity of spirit of its predecessors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EOf course, it has taken many years to reach this point, and though it has not always been easy going, this point has been reached because people have in the end been willing to compromise. In many instances iwi have looked beyond what might simply be best for them, to the greater needs of M\u0101ori in general, and that is to be commended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIt is also appropriate that I today pay credit to the successive commissioners and commissions for their management of this resource endowment. They have brought the total value of the assets to approximately $750 million, more than double their original value, while distributing something in the order of $20 million per annum to iwi through the leasing and annual catch entitlement schemes. That is a remarkable record of stewardship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ELet me also thank the many groups and individuals who have worked for so long to bring us to this point. Among them, of course, are the members of the select committee, and ministry and departmental staff, who have meticulously managed the detail of this very complex bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe Maori Fisheries Bill delivers to M\u0101ori the means to long-term financial confidence. It paves the way for economic growth that will benefit all New Zealanders. The allocation of quota, cash, and income shares will empower iwi to develop their own assets and to contribute even more to the economic and employment growth so important to all of us. The Government welcomes the passage of this bill. It is the final step the Crown must take to complete the implementation of agreements made in the fisheries deed of settlement 1992 signed by the Crown and M\u0101ori. It is a singular privilege to have the opportunity, as Minister of Fisheries, to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd380da368bc415397d3d8680af6b297\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There will be one debate, but I will put each question separately at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220b54f8e3c64d4d1db513457cc9f61cb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b54f8e3c64d4d1db513457cc9f61cb7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak in the third reading debate of these two bills. Can I at the outset acknowledge the presence in the House today of the Hon Koro W\u0113tere and the Hon Doug Kidd, two gentlemen who have had much to do with the settlement of this issue to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt has been a very long road to get to the point where this legislation is before the House today. But it is not the end of the road. I have to say that while the National Party is very keen to see M\u0101ori get hold of the assets that were negotiated under a National Government in 1992, and wants M\u0101ori to get on with the business of fishing, of making a considerable contribution to the economy of New Zealand, as is happening now with these assets, we also want to see them get the benefit of the assets. We are not convinced that this legislation is going to deliver that in the way that is purported. So it is with some reluctance that we will support the legislation today\u2014reluctance, knowing that it will only be a matter of time before this issue is back before the House again and has to have a considerable amount of attention from Parliament once more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E I will tell members why we think that. It is because the assets that were given to M\u0101ori are not, as a result of this bill, going to get to them. Secondly, the inshore fishery will be given directly, but the big-money quota will not get directly to M\u0101ori. No matter what their capacity to use it, they will not get it. Iwi groups will be asked to select representatives to choose a board to set up Te Ohu Kai Moana, which will set up the trust to hold those assets. So iwi are at least three steps removed, for a start, from the body that will hold their assets. That body will not actually operate them. That body will simply appoint the directors of Aotearoa Fisheries, which in turn will organise the fishing of that quota. When it comes to the profit flow, much of it will be dependent upon the success in any given year of Sealord\u2019s\u2014an operation that we notice has been in some difficulty for some time. That profit will flow back to Aotearoa Fisheries, then back to Te Ohu Kai Moana, then perhaps, and only perhaps, back to iwi, but not directly to iwi\u2014to an organisation designed to receive that income that iwi are being forced to set up; an organisation to receive intended profits from fishing activity, but an organisation prevented from fishing itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe think that, in the case of many iwi groupings around the country, that is an utter nonsense. They are successfully operating fishing companies, and should have been given the opportunity to take their deep-sea assets and work them, as they do with other quota they currently hold. So we think it will simply be a matter of time before many people at the bottom of the pile start to work out that there is really not a lot of change in what is being proposed today, and they will come back to Parliament to ask parliamentarians to sort out the problem. That is one of the irritations we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt needs to be said that this measure is a M\u0101ori solution to the distribution of assets. The Labour Government, of course, took one look at it and its natural control-freak instincts overtook it and it said: \u201CWe love that sort of grip on people\u2019s lives, so we\u2019ll buy it.\u201D But I want people who are listening to understand that when M\u0101ori do come back to this House and ask a National Government to sort it out, we will be sorting out a M\u0101ori solution that went wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne of the big issues for the future of this country is sorting out the ongoing historical treaty grievances. Our party has made a strong commitment to that. We note that the Government this year was advised to put more resource into the Waitangi Commission to speed the process, but even with the Government\u2019s massive surpluses it decided not to do that. We do not understand that; that is something we will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe key to all of that is getting a good mandating process as to who is able to negotiate. I am a little concerned that this bill, in the case of Rongomaiwahine and Ng\u0101ti Hine, establishes those two groups as new iwi. M\u0101ori will shake their heads and say: \u201CNo, that\u2019s not happening; they\u2019ve always been like that.\u201D If that is the case, why was the select committee charged with the responsibility of making that decision? Because that is inappropriate; it should be M\u0101ori who decide who are iwi and who are not. Further, that is enhanced\u2014and my argument is supported\u2014by the fact that the select committee turned down many other, presumably, hap\u016B groups that wanted to be recognised as iwi. That is not the business of Parliament. One of the things that has to happen is M\u0101ori who want treaty settlements to be concluded quickly need to sort out the mandating process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI said we will support this bill with some reluctance and I have outlined the points on which we are reluctant, but we wish those who will try to make this legislation work all the very best. It is important that 20 percent of the country\u2019s fishing assets are fished well, it is important that the benefit of those assets flows to the whole economy, and it is important that the profits from those ventures flow to those who are the owners of them. They are the people at the bottom of the heap. We will be watching very carefully to make sure that that flow happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u002239b6bdc40aae48c0be67c6e1002bf16c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239b6bdc40aae48c0be67c6e1002bf16c\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E E tika ake an\u014D ki te mihi ake an\u014D ki a koutou o te k\u014Dmihana, i a koutou mai i te motu i tae ake an\u014D ki te rongo ake an\u014D ki te whakaotinga o t\u0113nei pire. I a k\u014Drua an\u014D e Doug me a koe Koro, e mihi kau ana i a k\u014Drua e tae kaha ake an\u014D i konei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[It is apt that I acknowledge you, the commission, and those from the land who have arrived to listen to the completion of this bill. I especially acknowledge your presence too, Doug and Koro, and your efforts to be here as well.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI give my greetings to the people from the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission and other people who have arrived here today, and especially those two old stalwarts of this House, the Hon Koro W\u0113tere and the Hon Doug Kidd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIf that member is the Opposition spokesperson on M\u0101ori Affairs, I am certainly mystified at his pontification about what is good for M\u0101ori and what is not good for M\u0101ori, after the \u014Crewa speech and three or four of the questions that were asked in this House today purporting that M\u0101ori are being over-fairly given interests. It has been a long journey, as Mr Brownlee well knows, since the treaty was signed in this country. That this process is being brought to finality today with the enactment of this bill, which this Government has pushed along after that long period of time, is certainly something M\u0101ori should celebrate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E The Maori Fisheries Bill is the final step in an extensive and very carefully considered process undertaken to transfer, then allocate, assets from the Crown to M\u0101ori in settlement of treaty claims to commercial fishing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c3bc70a3ff9463b8dc65e2c2cc29b5c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4746fd755024129ab621d5b493c0e60\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly does that. I would ask about Fonterra. M\u0101ori are chastised at times about turning assets into confetti. Fonterra seems to be well established in the fundamentals of commerciality and keeping things together\u2014and it is no different from Zespri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWe started many years ago with the Maori Fisheries Act 1989 and now we will have the Maori Fisheries Act 2004, and this Government needs to be commended for bringing that about. Our people have a saying: \u201CKa p\u016B te ruha, ka hao te rangatahi.\u201D, which is translated as: \u201CThe old net is cast aside\u201D\u2014and old politicians\u2014\u201Cand the new net goes fishing.\u201D Once this legislative process is completed, the casting of the new net will begin. The third reading of the Maori Fisheries Bill, along with Te Ture Whenua Maori Amendment Bill (No 2), finishes the process that most recently included major recommendations from the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee. Subsequent changes to the initial legislative proposals make them better reflect what is needed for M\u0101ori to be active and long-term participants in the fishing industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI extend my sincere appreciation to my pakeke in Parliament, Winston Peters, and his party for supporting us, and to the select committee for the energy and time it has invested in progressing this important legislation. Its work has not been an easy task. I especially thank the chairman, Russell Fairbrother, and also Peter Paraone and Georgina te Heuheu, and especially my hard-working colleagues the Hon Dover Samuels, Mahara Okeroa, and Nanaia Mahuta. They have been beset with challenges, but they have stood strong and they have got to this point. They have read and listened to various submissions from industry players, and have considered advice and submissions from several ministries and interested parties, including Te Ohu Kai Moana, in order to get us here today. That the committee took its task very seriously is demonstrated by the number of significant amendments that it recommended be made by this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe new legislation will really help propel M\u0101ori forward into the fishing sector. There will be allocation of significant fishery assets to iwi organisations in the form of settlement quota, income shares, and cash. Other fisheries\u2019 assets will be managed centrally on behalf of iwi and, ultimately, all M\u0101ori people generally. After the legislation is passed, a new trust called Te Ohu Kai Moana will be established with the accompanying Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd. It will be responsible for allocating settlement assets to iwi and for overseeing the operations of the new Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd. I will make the initial appointment of directors to that body, but then the task will be taken up in an orderly fashion by Te K\u0101wai Taumata, a group of 11 people appointed by 10 regional groupings of iwi, and one other member appointed by a group of representative M\u0101ori organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe way forward is now clear for our people to manage the fisheries\u2019 assets, which the trust will allocate on behalf of the ultimate beneficiaries. At that level, clear distinctions will be drawn between the governance and management of the assets, with mandated iwi organisations and asset-holding companies. A new company called Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd will administer major assets, including shares in companies received from the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission. That company will be under legislative instruction to distribute large chunks of the net profits to income shareholders. Two further trusts called Te Putea Whakatupu Trust and Te Wai M\u0101ori Trust will be established to assist with research and education grants and other activities. Te Putea Whakatupu Trust will promote education, training, and research on fishing matters and other activities. Te Wai M\u0101ori Trust will advance M\u0101ori interest in freshwater fisheries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWe have waited a long time for this day. Many of our kaum\u0101tua, kuia, and people who have had an input into this matter are not here today, and I want to remember them as M\u0101ori celebrate the beginning of the end of this long journey. People like the Hon Matiu Rata and Sir Robert M\u0101huta have taken the long journey back over the great ocean of Kiwa. We are still here to carry on their wishes and those of the leaders who settled the treaty-based commercial fishing claims in 1992. That was many years ago. For more than 10 years there has been much discussion and debate, mostly rigorous\u2014often very rigorous\u2014on how to move forward. The paternalism and the patronising of M\u0101ori people are something we want to move out of the road. We do not need to be told how to do it. We do not need to be told how to run things. We need to be recognised for the statesmanship that we can certainly imbue in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e112a9ab4a4460d8d5767ada27b2e95\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What about the foreshore and seabed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c738ab4da9564479bbc00b5a95458deb\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: That member promised that he would behave himself and become that, not the outdated, rabble-rousing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a2508e39e4a415fa67bba073c27326d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: You pushed me beyond the limit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c1a6ca00e9d48818ebdb672d08aa93e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am not pushing anybody beyond the limit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244e8f72ce7b1495ba28523e928034a88\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I salute the efforts of numerous commissioners\u2014people like Sir Tipene O\u2019Regan and Shane Jones, the commissioners who brought the old net into shore. Their journey has been arduous and at times frustrating. Hope and determination to see the job done are certainly why we are here today. I acknowledge the Rt Hon Jim Bolger and the Hon Doug Graham for their input along the way. Most of all, I pay due respect to my colleague the Minister of Fisheries, David Benson-Pope, for his outstanding work in getting this process done, and to Minister Pete Hodgson before him for his work. I also thank myself, along with Winston Peters, because we have got to here\u2014just in case people forget that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EBut let us be as courageous as M\u0101ori people are today. Let us, as a great nation, accept this measure, and ensure that we recognise that this legislation is good for M\u0101ori, good for this nation, and should be celebrated. Wake up!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002206fccf6bf7294c63bb74519d3d4f92f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206fccf6bf7294c63bb74519d3d4f92f0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E There is an old M\u0101ori saying that the k\u016Bmara never says how sweet it is. When one is reduced to acknowledging and thanking oneself, it brings to mind that old M\u0101ori saying: \u201CKa p\u016B te ruha, ka hao te rangatahi.\u201D, which means: \u201CWhen the old net is full of holes, the new net goes fishing.\u201D When the old net is full of holes\u2014useless and obsolete\u2014that is when the new net goes fishing. That is why New Zealand First is here today, and we will be ready in 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI noticed that the two previous speakers did not want to own up to the facts behind this long-running battle with regard to assets. Between 1984 and 1990 the first State asset sale in this country was the sale to private ownership of the fishing resource of New Zealand. It was the first sale of a state asset and today we are seeing the aftermath of it. But, of course, why would anyone want to own up to that? It is so discredited now in 2004\u2014not just here but worldwide. In 1986 the Labour Government, as its first State asset sale, sold the right to New Zealand\u2019s fishing resource into private ownership. It was inevitable that by 1988 and 1989 the M\u0101ori people would be saying: \u201CYes, but what about us?\u201D. And that is what we are talking about today. In 1989 the Labour Government set up M\u0101ori fisheries legislation, but it had one huge defect, which was palpably obvious back then\u2014it is in the Hansard, for anybody who wants to remember the facts; some of us pointed it out back then\u2014and that was that there was no distribution or disbursement policy. We also warned that it would produce the longest-running legal battle that M\u0101oridom would ever have with itself. There is nothing as antiseptic as the saying \u201CI told you so.\u201D\u2014but I did. There is nothing as antiseptic or sterile as the saying \u201CI told you so.\u201D\u2014but we did, and here we are, 15 years later, and we still have only the legislation, and have huge problems to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMy challenge to the M\u0101ori people on this issue is this: walk down the main street of Tauranga, Rotorua, or Ruat\u014Dria and ask M\u0101ori there how many of them have got a fish; go down the main street of Kaikohe, Whangarei, Wanganui, New Plymouth, H\u0101wera, or anywhere around this country where there are M\u0101ori, and ask any M\u0101ori on the street how many of them actually have got a fish. I know what will the answer be: \u201CBrother, I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re talking about.\u201D The deed of 1992 is a very interesting document. It was signed by all manner of people\u2014whether they had tribal or iwi authority, or whatever. Then, there was still no distribution mechanism. We lived in a vacuum where, for a while, the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission thought it could, without any statutory authority, take up the slack in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ESo we see in this legislation a trust called the National Urban M\u0101ori Authority. That was John Tamihere\u2019s idea. That is called postal box tribalism. If one changes one\u2019s address one changes one\u2019s tribe. What sort of ancestral, historical thing are we talking about? Where in M\u0101oridom\u2019s antecedents could one change one\u2019s address and change one\u2019s tribe? I cannot hear a mutter or a murmur from those people over there now. I cannot hear a syllable or a sound. It is just one mess after another. Where in the world of M\u0101ori, since the mythical time of Hawaiki, could one change one\u2019s postal box and change one\u2019s iwi? But there it is in this legislation\u2014one mess after another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIf that happens, I can tell members that Rongomaiwahine and Ng\u0101ti Hine have far more rights than that. Who would ever doubt who the Ng\u0101ti Hine people are? We know that Ng\u0101ti Wai came first, after all! Unless someone came from out of space or in a helicopter, the people of the coast had to be there first. It is axiomatic. But we will not stand around arguing about their rights. We know what they are, as Ng\u0101ti Hine and Rongomaiwahine know what they are, as well. The sooner we sort that out, the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut this debate has a great backdrop in the speech of the \u201CGreat Communicator\u201D at \u014Crewa. How difficult it was for the members of the National Party to have to admit that, in every respect, they were the architects of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f80553e6fac44b8aa9cc52394e8401eb\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214ed3ed7b61348578e577957d9f75541\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! They admit it now. Well, I read Don Brash\u2019s \u014Crewa speech and it was clear that someone who is soon to be a pensioner does not remember our history\u2014or, more important, does not remember how culpable his party is in this country\u2019s history when it comes to this issue. How difficult it was for Gerry Brownlee to get up, make a speech, and say that National would support this legislation. What on earth was Don Brash\u2019s speech at \u014Crewa about? It was a great speech, I am told, because, even though the year was not up, Toastmasters gave him the prize for being the \u201CGreat Communicator\u201D of 2004. This was in June. Nelson Mandela, Winston Churchill, Mark Antony, or Dr Martin Luther King could make any speech they liked now, because the prize has already been given out. I call that another little right-wing jack-up. Of course, the media swallowed it\u2014as they always do\u2014hook, line, and sinker. The media never questioned that it was only June. But, against today\u2019s debate, we have that speech made at \u014Crewa. I ask the National Party how it squares its position today with what was said at \u014Crewa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc13fdd4b1174fc59a1dbccd992ef336\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014yield.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9902c5f8288414ca531e1c42ed0b97b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to yield. I seek leave to yield briefly in order for Mr Brownlee to get up and explain how he reconciles his speech today with the \u014Crewa speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dbe0733055b4e9998ade5c6e1944078\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: A yield is confined to a brief comment or question on the subject that the member yielding was speaking on. It is not a means of transferring the call. It is to be terse and to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d0d75412da460fb45f3c4f73e3c7db\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I so seek leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280f02bbfa4ad4d1d80b9c1df98a5fc73\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member does not need leave; he can yield. It is to be a brief comment and that is all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6fad7c690b54116a4f01f147ec4b364\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order is that, even though I come from the party of great communicators, 30 seconds is not enough to give the House the explanation Mr Peters wants. I am happy to ask the House to give me 5 minutes to give that explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022506a881b4d0a4f4e9ca25a2105e42a2c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is the master of its own destiny. The member is seeking leave. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224142d9c7852c44079adbca8758528bec\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Let me make it very clear that when Dr Brash stood up at \u014Crewa and gave his speech, there were a number of people there listening who were impressed. There were tens of thousands who did not hear it, but who have simply got the flavour of what he was talking about and have applauded it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ELet me tell members why. When he spoke so openly, so clearly, and so freely at \u014Crewa, he allowed a debate to begin in this country that is long overdue\u2014not just for those who are non-M\u0101ori, but for M\u0101ori as well. I said, when I spoke in the House today, that we are not happy about this bill. We will support it, because we will not deny anybody the assets that are theirs. We are not happy about this bill, because it will not see those people in the various provincial towns of this country who have an ownership stake in the 20 percent of quota, whom Mr Peters spoke of, getting anything out of it at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe see that as a proliferation of the current arrangements. Te Ohu Kai Moana is nothing more than the Fisheries Commission in drag. Its members are the people who will determine how much money goes back to M\u0101ori. So why would we have any conflict between a position that said we should treat everybody in this country fairly and equally\u2014which was the message from \u014Crewa\u2014and expressing some disappointment about a bill that will say to people who have an asset that they can own it but they cannot touch it, and that they can have an expectation of getting something out of it only if those members over there choose to give it to them? That is why there is no conflict on the position we take on this bill, I say to Mr Peters, and the message in \u014Crewa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI say one further thing. There was nothing for any M\u0101ori in this country to fear or be concerned about in the message that Don Brash gave at \u014Crewa. There was, rather, a huge amount of hope and optimism. In that speech, he made a commitment to the preservation of te reo M\u0101ori, to a haste in the process for dealing with historic treaty settlements. We have in front of us, right here, an Official Information Act request granted to us, which shows that the Labour Government makes a big noise about settling historic treaty grievances, but when its own Office of Treaty Settlements tells it that the office does not have the resource to do that any quicker than it is doing at the moment, does the Government put some extra money in? Does it show a bit of goodwill\u2014a word its members constantly throw around the House? Does it show any goodwill towards getting that process moving along any more quickly? No, even though the Government is told it will take years and years without more resources, it will simply throw it on the table without providing the resources. There is no conflict between our position on this speech, given the great history the National Party has of dealing in a very upfront way with issues to do with M\u0101ori rights, and the message in Dr Brash\u2019s speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b8b4cae0e0400cb68220c53c7aecce\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He was asked how he reconciled the two speeches, and he could not. At \u014Crewa, Dr Brash said that M\u0101ori are not even a people or a culture, and that they do not deserve special or separate treatment. We know what the \u014Crewa speech was about. It was a case of walking out of a saloon, stealing a man\u2019s horse, and trying to ride it out of town. That is very hard to do. A man can steal a horse, but he cannot stay on it. We just heard why. The National Party\u2019s DNA\u2014its fingerprints\u2014is all over the issue in respect of separate treatment for M\u0101ori. It is no use Dr Brash coming along here. He cannot find the parliamentary toilets, yet he starts stealing my speeches and my party\u2019s policy and trying to call it his own. The ACT party cannot call it theirs, because Shirley and Prebble signed up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ea36544bcf349ceb874702dae47de05\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will use members\u2019 full names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4e13ce2bdd640be8ed41a6e97457844\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It will not work. Dr Brash was asked whether he believed in M\u0101ori Television, and he said he did not know. Does he believe in the M\u0101ori seats? No. Will National candidates be standing in the M\u0101ori seats? Yes. That is confusion. Does he believe in k\u014Dhanga reo? \u201CI\u2019ll wait and see how it\u2019s working out.\u201D It has been going for 25 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI will get back to my point. There is, today, an inevitability about this legislation, because of what people did in the past foolishly. I can recall the 1992 legislation, and many M\u0101ori can as well. It was always my argument\u2014and New Zealand First\u2019s argument, as we are saying today\u2014that what M\u0101ori need are the fundamental things that all humans need: decent housing, decent medicine, decent first-world wages, decent salaries, and great education. They want to be part of the first world, and all this paternalistic nonsense will not uplift M\u0101ori, at all. There will be the usual people arguing the teat for all they are worth, but the mass great bulk of M\u0101oridom need better policies than that. My message to them is very simple: hang on, because help is on its way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00223d790ab2dc1a43b49a4588f8e74ad06b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d790ab2dc1a43b49a4588f8e74ad06b\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I extend our greetings to Koro W\u0113tere, Doug Kidd, and others, who have come here today for the third reading of this legislation. I am presenting this speech on behalf of my colleague Metiria Turei, who cannot be here today. The Greens are pleased that the allocation of fisheries assets, a result of the 1992 Sealord\u2019s deal, is at long last being settled. Sadly, however, the Green Party is unable to support the final shape of the legislation. We had hoped for significant changes to it during its consideration at the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee, but that did not happen. Some of the key issues raised in submissions included the need for greater accountability of Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd and Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd to iwi, greater accountability of mandated iwi organisations to their iwi members, changes in the timing and procedures to review the governance structures of new entities, greater flexibility in the disposal of settlement assets, reductions in delays in the transfer of assets to mandated iwi organisations, and recognition of iwi for the purposes of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESome of those concerns were addressed but, unfortunately, little real accountability was added. One of the changes that was intended to address the issue of accountability was the provision that mandated iwi organisations would be able to table non-binding motions at general meetings of Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd, and that all reporting documents should go to Te Kawai Taumata, the electoral college, to enable it to assess better the performance of the directors it appointed. But the problem is that non-binding motions, ultimately, are really worthless. Those assets after all belong to hap\u016B and iwi, yet in the end those groups will have little control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe Government has been reluctant to interfere with the legislation, on the basis that it concerns a settlement that is primarily for hap\u016B and iwi to work out. But we believe that the Government has failed to recognise that the significant agreement in the community to move forward on the settlement allocation does not amount to significant support for details of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe intention was that these issues of concern would be sorted out in the select committee process. M\u0101ori believed that the process was democratic and that their views would be listened to and taken into account, but in many cases that has simply not happened. We continue to oppose the paramount role of Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd. The changes that have been made still do not go far enough to remedy the fundamental conflict of interest in the governance and commercial structures established by the legislation. Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd will retain the sole voting share over Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd, which is a commercial organisation in competition with fishing entities established by mandated iwi organisations for the management of their settlement assets. We proposed an amendment to ensure that mandated iwi organisations would receive voting shares, but that, unfortunately, was not passed. We strongly believe that iwi are entitled to voting shares in Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd\u2014the commercial entity that will retain 50 percent of the settlement assets originally intended to be transferred to the mandated iwi organisations. If the assets are to be retained in a centralised form, iwi should be able, at the very least, and entitled to exercise the responsibilities of shareholders, consistent with standard commercial practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe Government wanted Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd to have almost complete control over every organisation involved in the management of the settlement assets, but that amounts to an abrogation of the principle of rangatiratanga inherent in the deed of settlement. Iwi cannot control Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd, because they have only income shares, not voting shares. As far as accountability, Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd will still be subject to an operational audit only every 4 years, to determine how well directors are carrying out their duties and functions. In the 11th year an independent review will be conducted, to determine whether any changes in the Government\u2019s arrangements or asset-disposal restrictions would better serve the interests of beneficiaries. At least, that reviewer will be appointed by iwi, who will also be able to set the terms of the review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAnother amendment we proposed was to remove the power of Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd to retain constitutional oversight of mandated iwi organisations, and to be able, unilaterally, to alter the requirements they must meet. What other organisations are subjected to what amounts to a form of paternalism? The basis for that control is the premise that M\u0101ori cannot look after their own money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe Green Party believes there are too many layers between M\u0101ori and the governance of their settlement assets. There also remains a conflict of interest when Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd and Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd are set up to compete with iwi groups. There is little benefit in that for iwi who wish to manage their own destiny in the fishing industry. How will they compete against the huge company that is Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd? We are disappointed, too, that a Government amendment was passed last night that will allow a special procedure to allocate and transfer assets to an iwi that cannot complete its coastline claims because one or more neighbouring iwi does not have a mandated iwi organisation. An iwi that does not have a mandated iwi organisation will now have 3 years to establish one. If it does not, then allocations will be able to proceed, and some iwi may end up with nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThat amendment is problematic, especially for iwi such as Ng\u0101ti Hine and Rongomaiwahine, who may face problems disaggregating from the conglomerate, which may hold up the process so that a mandated iwi organisation cannot be established. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThat would be a litigation nightmare. We sincerely hope that it will not happen, but the Government\u2019s amendment provides that it might. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EFinally, although the Greens disagree with the final form of this bill, we are extremely pleased that progress has been made. The issue may be a full and final settlement, in the Government\u2019s view, but we fear that it is not a full and final settlement for hap\u016B and iwi, who will no doubt struggle with what has been put in place by this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00228f7819b80cfd4319824b88e40091a0de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f7819b80cfd4319824b88e40091a0de\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to acknowledge my former colleague the Hon Koro W\u0113tere, who was the co-Minister with me in 1990 when we nominated the first members to the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission. I would also like to acknowledge the Hon Doug Kidd, who succeeded me as Minister of Fisheries, and was the Minister at the time of the 1992 Sealord\u2019s deal. The ACT party will not be supporting this legislation, and in saying that I stress at the outset that it is not because we do not want to see M\u0101ori play a dominant, successful role in fisheries. In fact, the very nature of this bill and its inadequacies are why, on balance, the ACT party has decided that it cannot vote for it. Clearly, we know that it will be passed, and we wish all those who will be its beneficiaries every success in their enterprise. But we do want to record our opposition to it on the basis that it breaches the 1992 deed of settlement, good commercial practice, the basic principles of property rights, and the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThis issue is all about property rights. People enjoyed fishing rights based on common law, but in the 1980s the Government introduced statutory law that gave clear property rights\u2014first in 1983, and then in 1986\u2014by establishing individual transferable quota under a quota management regime. Those fishing rights became tangible, clear property rights. I do not think anybody in the Government anticipated at the time the simmering concerns of M\u0101oridom, but M\u0101ori had not been able to express their frustration at not having received sufficient acknowledgment based on their customary right. It was at the point when there were clear property rights that M\u0101ori, firstly through the Muriwhenua decision and then through subsequent Court of Appeal decisions, made it quite clear that the terms of article 2 of the treaty\u2014full, exclusive, and undisturbed possession of one\u2019s lands, forests, fisheries, and taonga\u2014certainly implied that M\u0101ori had a clear property right interest in fisheries. That interest is what the Crown has been negotiating on, right from the late 1980s through to today\u2014and, I predict, will be negotiating on beyond the present\u2014to try to come to terms with what is a very important issue for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe believe that this bill fails miserably, because it imposes all manner of restrictions on M\u0101ori that other people do not have on their property rights. It sets up multi-tiered, convoluted, patronising bureaucracies, and locks M\u0101ori into them. I believe that M\u0101ori\u2014and Ng\u0101i Tahu is a good example, but there are other examples\u2014are proving they are very good business people. And why should we be surprised at that? There is standard commercial law in this country, so why do this Parliament and this Government need to say that M\u0101ori have to have special protections, convoluted bureaucracies, and checks and balances that no other commercial business has to have? When we do that, it comes at a price: it diminishes the value of one\u2019s asset, and it diminishes the opportunity for an enterprise to be, and the probability of an enterprise being, a commercial success. It can foot-trip a business. The very patronising aspects that are done with good intent can actually foot-trip a business at the end of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe other aspect in terms of the Treaty of Waitangi is the pre-emption clause, which is included in the article 2 property right clause. It states that the chiefs and tribes can hold the asset for as long as they so choose, and that they then have the right to sell it. But this bill prevents the sale of the asset, and that diminishes its value. In other words, it establishes a dual quota. There is what one may call general quota, and then there is M\u0101ori quota, which is ring-fenced and can be sold only to a limited pool of people. That is being done with good intentions: because M\u0101ori may flog it all off. But it is actually their right to do that if they want to, under article 2 of the treaty. I do not believe they will flog it off, but that is their right. It is everybody\u2019s right to make mistakes. However, the other side of that is there may be good reasons for selling the asset. I would just like to run through some of those reasons. Fishing, in a global sense, is a hunter-gatherer operation. We underwent an agricultural revolution, arguably, 2,000 to 4,000 years ago, and changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers. The same process is happening in the world\u2019s fisheries, and aquaculture is the new dimension. It may well be that many stocks and species in various management zones may become almost extinct, commercially, so why should we lock M\u0101ori into an asset of diminishing value, when the sensible thing for them to do may be to take the value of the asset, sell it while they still can and while it has its value, and invest in aquaculture\u2014become fish farmers, instead? That opportunity should be provided to M\u0101ori, as anyone else who holds quota would have that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EIt is for those reasons that the ACT party feels rather strongly about the bill, and I certainly feel strongly about it. I chaired the first select committee over a period of about 2 years, and I was the Minister who transferred the first quota to the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission. But I have to say that this process has been horribly politicised. The point is that it was to be a property right settlement, whereas what it has become is a social welfare cheque, and that is not what it should be. The Crown may well have responsibilities with regard to the social needs of M\u0101ori in health and welfare, but it should not confuse that with a property right. That is what this bill does. It is meant to be a property right settlement, but the provisions that, I think, John Tamihere and others have brought to this bill as a compromise\u2014it is stated to be a compromise, but it is actually a politicisation of the issue\u2014breach the intent of the deed of settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI predict that this legislation will provide an avenue for this matter to be relitigated in future years. There is a recipe for ongoing disputes in this legislation, although we hope this is the end of it. We hope that 12 or 13 years after the Sealord\u2019s deal a compromise has been achieved, but I see in this legislation the seeds of ongoing disputes within M\u0101oridom. That in itself could be very divisive. We members of Parliament are already receiving letters from various hap\u016B, stating that they want to disassociate from their iwi and that they do not acknowledge them. Possibly that will go down to the wh\u0101nau level. That is the reality. With tangible assets, resources, and values of this nature, why should we be surprised at that? This bill creates a climate whereby those problems are likely to become exacerbated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EACT will not support this bill. I listened to the speech made by Gerry Brownlee from the National Party. I agree with most of the points he made, but I could not agree with his conclusion. Why on earth would one support this bill on the basis of one\u2019s own analysis? It is not robust legislation, and that is a shame. We have to make the point that we are currently working through the foreshore and seabed legislation and the aquaculture legislation. All those issues are intertwined and interrelated, with common threads between all of them. I think we could well see the unfortunate elements in this fisheries bill compounded by what I think is a totally wrong approach on the foreshore and seabed, whereby due process is being abandoned. The Government of the day has panicked and introduced legislation that cuts across due process and, in an indirect way, will exacerbate some of the problems that stem from this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5f7335c931e497bb4f2eb7c4651761f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5f7335c931e497bb4f2eb7c4651761f\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It is with a sense of gratitude that I rise on behalf of United Future with the privilege of speaking at the third reading of this legislation, which hopefully will be the end of the legislative resolution of the Treaty of Waitangi fisheries settlement negotiated in 1992. As a member of this House who is in his first term, I begin by paying my respects to those honourable members in this House and in previous Parliaments who acted with integrity, good faith, and courage in the initial negotiation and ongoing development of that settlement. I acknowledge the presence here today of Mr W\u0113tere and Mr Kidd. I also pay tribute to M\u0101ori leaders who, with good will, accepted the terms of settlement on behalf of all M\u0101ori, in the interests of the welfare and development of M\u0101ori. I know that some of those leaders of considerable mana have since passed from the world, but they are no doubt here with us in spirit today. I acknowledge the hard work done by the members, both past and present, of the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission, Te Ohu Kai Moana. I know they will welcome this day, which sees the passing of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThis legislation is different from the M\u0101ori Fisheries Bill that was referred to the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee on 4 December 2003. Despite having been cautioned not to make too many changes to that bill, the committee did, in my opinion, make a number of improvements in response to submitters\u2019 concerns, while still respecting the delicate balance achieved by Te Ohu Kai Moana\u2019s negotiations with iwi and hap\u016B across the country. It is important also to acknowledge the excellent work and support given to the committee by the support staff, the officials from the Ministry of Fisheries, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, and the independent adviser who served the committee so well. Personally, the working relationship that developed in the select committee is a positive memory that I will retain for some time. The Committee of the whole House passed further changes to the legislation, which were recommended by the Minister, and that has resulted in the final version of the legislation to be passed here today. Despite all the debate, criticism, and proposed amendments during the last phase of the passage of this legislation, it is notable that it will be passed by an overwhelming majority of the members of this House. It is encouraging that such significant legislation of benefit to all New Zealanders is being passed at the end of such a long parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIt is our earnest hope that this legislation will facilitate further growth in the economic development of M\u0101ori with iwi and hap\u016B tribal affiliations, and also of urban M\u0101ori, as well. M\u0101ori economic development and prosperity is good for all New Zealanders. The strengthening and restoring of the M\u0101ori economic base will enhance the M\u0101ori entrepreneurial opportunities that are already evident in the New Zealand economy. P\u0101keh\u0101 and other ethnic communities should welcome every aspect of that success and growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee has to date been given two bills to deal with: the Maori Fisheries Bill, and the Foreshore and Seabed Bill. I would at this point like to make a few comments about the contrast between the goodwill that is being developed by the passing of this legislation and the situation we are faced with as a committee as we hear, day in and day out, the disappointment, anger, and frustration that is expressed by M\u0101ori and others over the Foreshore and Seabed Bill. This legislation has not been without controversy. Certainly, there was considerable concern when the Treaty of Waitangi (Fisheries Claims) Settlement Act was passed in the early 1990s. Despite that, this legislation is welcomed by the majority of people, and it makes a positive contribution to the resolution of past issues. Yet in the Foreshore and Seabed Bill it is hard to recognise that it is the same Labour-led Government, which has a laudable record of listening to M\u0101ori and addressing M\u0101ori issues, that is in danger of demonstrating it seems to have forgotten all it has learnt about listening. The National Party also seems to be shying away from constructive engagement on such important issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe legislation we are passing today is the combination of work carried out in good faith by both previous Labour and National Governments. It was started by Labour in 1989, was carried on by National in 1992, and is now being concluded by the Labour Government in 2004. United Future is pleased to have been able to play some small, constructive role in the completion of this legislative process. It demonstrates some of the best attributes of how the members of an incoming Government, irrespective of the political party it is comprised of, can lay aside the mantle of having been the Queen\u2019s Opposition\u2014and therefore of challenging, disagreeing with, and criticising many of the previous Government\u2019s actions and policy\u2014and, on assuming the reigns of power, can carry on the good work that was done by their predecessors, for the benefit of all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThis bill deals with the distribution of assets to M\u0101ori, based upon the recognition of a property right in fish. Surely a consensus can be found that will recognise similar rights in the marine environment of the foreshore and seabed, where those fish live. This legislation is part of the answer. However, at this stage at least, the Foreshore and Seabed Bill, rather than being part of the answer, is in danger of contributing towards\u2014and is heading towards\u2014becoming a serious part of the problem, in my opinion. Hardly any of the submitters I heard were fully in support of that bill, whether they were M\u0101ori or P\u0101keh\u0101. Submitter after submitter has appealed to the Government to slow down the passage of that bill, and to allow more consultation to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a30f806e83724183801dccd9efa55755\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come to this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218b209149c1d4d68a62c001de54303cd\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: I am, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664df668af854ed399cafd354565cee7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is not. He is straying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d3ddb1d3ae484892de65ad80583c25\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: The Government needs to accept that the journey is often as important as the destination. Therefore, I call on the Government to accept United Future\u2019s offer of at least taking one step in the right direction, by responding to the appeals of submitters, as has been the case with regard to this legislation. The select committee should be given an extension of time, to enable it to make an interim report\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8c573a63e17444f99d3933ae75bd4f7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please be seated. He must not refer again to that bill and the proposals for it. He is to talk on the third reading of this legislation only, or his speech will be terminated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022edbe47a444f3d893d03923e0062ae\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: I believe it is time for us to have a cup of tea. We must acknowledge all the truth about our history as a nation, but not forget that that is one of the many high points that demonstrate the ability and willingness of New Zealanders to resolve seemingly irreconcilable relationship challenges. The passage of this legislation is an example of that. I am sure that Te Ohu Kai Moana\u2019s directors and staff would have many stories to tell about the process that has been gone through. This legislation is the end of 12 to 15 years of work, and it is the beginning of another 12 years of work, as well. Although many people have lamented the length of time that has passed, the money spent on litigation, and the hours of discussion and hui, none of it is wasted if we really believe that the journey can be as important as the destination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIn closing, on behalf of New Zealand First I not only convey our support for this legislation but also express our support to those who will take up the responsibilities outlined within it, as well. To the kaum\u0101tua and rangatira o ng\u0101 iwi o Aotearoa who have been elected or will be elected to Te K\u0101wai Taumata, with the responsibility to appoint the members of Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd, who will carry much of the burden for the next phase of the journey, to those who will become directors of Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd, to the many kaum\u0101tua and rangatira who will be given the responsibilities of trust in the mandated iwi organisations, and to other leaders who will assume responsibilities, I say: whakapainga e koutou te ingoa o te Atua. Kia kaha, kia toa, kia manawa nui. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E[You must praise the name of God, and be strong, brave, and stout of heart. So, greetings to you and to all of you.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u002229e4dbe940074030968901076a0c60f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229e4dbe940074030968901076a0c60f3\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Associate Minister of Maori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E E te Kaihaut\u016B, te kaiwhakaruruhau i a m\u0101tou Jonathan, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe. E ng\u0101 rangatira, m\u0101tua, Koro r\u0101ua ko Doug, \u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 k\u014Drua, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 k\u014Drua, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 k\u014Drua. N\u014D reira, e ng\u0101 rau rangatira rongonui o te k\u014Dmihana, e ng\u0101 iwi huri noa, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. \u0100, kei te tautoko, kei te whakamiha ki a r\u0101tou ng\u0101 t\u012Bpuna. E te rangatira a Pari, e r\u0101tou m\u0101 ng\u0101 t\u012Bpuna, haere, haere, haere ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E[And, greetings indeed to you Mr Speaker, Jonathan, the one who shelters us. To you two chiefs and father figures, Koro and Doug, greetings, greetings, and greetings to you two. And so to the well-known chiefs of the commission, as well as the people gathered about, greetings, greetings, and greetings to you all. I endorse and acknowledge the ancestors who have departed, especially Pari. Depart the ancestors, farewell, travel on.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure and a privilege to stand to bring the saga of this legislation to closure. It had its genesis at the time of the settlement. It had its genesis in this House, where M\u0101ori rights with regard to the fishing assets were always protected. We bring closure to the issue today in relation to legislation that, in large part, went through a long, tortuous process\u2014a litigatory process. We have arrived. As one of the combatants in part of the process, it is great to stand up in this House and to know that we have brought inclusion and closure, so that our people out on the street can now start to participate more fully and fulsomely in a wonderful asset. The only regrettable thing about that is the time line it will take before the rubber starts to hit the road out in our communities. The acid test is now on M\u0101ori leadership, full stop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge a number of the leaders who have brought this legislation to conclusion, and without picking anyone out separately or individually, I do acknowledge the fine work of the Hon Matiu Rata, who was one of the forefathers in the Labour Party and one of its statesmen. I acknowledge also, as I already have, the Hon Koro W\u0113tere. I acknowledge the work of National Party members when the National Party actually stood for nationhood building. The members concerned were the Hon Doug Kidd, the Rt Hon Jim Bolger, and the Rt Hon Douglas Montrose Graham. But those days are gone, and I regret that the National Party does not have statesmen of their ilk any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI now want to turn and acknowledge others, as I should\u2014I want my kids to read this. The reality is that I have stepped on many toes, and a number of the chiefs and a number of the tribes who may well be here in the gallery or listening to the radio broadcast of this debate would acknowledge that. But at least they should give me some Brownie points for being consistent. I want to say of the great chief Sir Robert M\u0101huta that it was a joy and a pleasure for me as a younger M\u0101ori merely to have had the opportunity to watch him operate. It is regrettable that he is no longer here to see this legislation come to closure. He was a chief who was always light years ahead of his people. He was always putting things into place for them, in terms of expectations. The fact that they could not see that then but know it now is regrettable. So I want to acknowledge the superb work and effort that Sir Robert put in. I am pleased that his daughter will take the opportunity to stand up in the debate as part of this closure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge Sir Graham Latimer. Now, I have said some naughty things about Sir Graham, but, as our other speakers have said, as the young net goes fishing certain things like that do occur. That is just how things work. But I want to acknowledge here today the work of Sir Graham and Auntie Emily\u2014an auntie of mine from the Whakat\u014Dhea people. They championed these issues whilst we were always sitting on the fence and throwing all sorts of naughty things at them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to acknowledge Sir T\u012Bpene O\u2019Regan. Although at times I have thought that he has been ill considered and that I probably would have taken a different approach from his, I think that chief will go down in history as one of the greatest chiefs that M\u0101oridom has produced in the last 50 years, regardless of the tribe. So although I am from Ng\u0101ti Porou, Whakat\u014Dhea, and Hauraki wh\u0101nui, I want to salute that Ng\u0101i Tahu chief who, through force of personality, significant intellect, and the like, has placed Ng\u0101i Tahu on the map for all time. I just wanted to acknowledge those people in that particular way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI want to move on now to address three things in the legislation very quickly. The Hon Winston Peters often gets it wrong when he tries to address matters M\u0101ori. For instance, he challenged myself and Parekura Horomia over hiding under the dress of a woman, or under the apron strings of a woman. Little does he know it, but Ng\u0101ti Porou men actually rejoice in that\u2014we rejoice in it. We are born out of Ruataupare and Materoa\u2014the great chieftainesses. Our tribe is born out of great chieftainesses. We rejoice in being under the skirts of women, and so I say all power to the arm of the Prime Minister. That just carries on a great tradition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c87cd43b4ba45bc80effd07bb3c711e\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: And he married our cousin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4657997eed445a4b01d2e89ca3287e8\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. I now want to turn to three things, because in the third reading debate it is important that they are nailed, and definitely nailed. In the Committee stage, I addressed two items. The first was clause 65 of the Maori Fisheries Bill, \u201CPurpose of Te Putea Whakatupu Trust\u201D. That trust is merely set up to ensure that all the obligations of the settlement arrive at the doorstep of all M\u0101ori, and so it is a bridge. It is a bridging trust that acknowledges exactly where we are, in terms of our development and evolution. The clause has been amended so that the purpose, which is the heart and the soul of the trust, is indeed very wide in terms of the promotion of education, training, and research. It can also have an application in relation to fisheries. The final clause that I will talk to concerns the appointment of the directors of that trust. It is quite clear that consultation can be had with only one defined group of M\u0101ori over the directorship, and that is urban M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe final thing I will say is on the issue of the disaggregation model. It is up to Ng\u0101puhi, to Kahungunu, to Hauraki wh\u0101nui, and to Te Arawa Kotahitanga to honour and respect the constituent iwi that make them up. No one would disaggregate if he or she was treated with some honour and respect. The law is there to allow us to take our mana away from a new corporate entity, in the event that it does not honour and respect the iwi. Rongomaiwahine, Ng\u0101ti Hine, the 12 iwi of the Hauraki, and the eight iwi of Te Arawa will have the right to walk in their own mana, but, let us get this right: it would be better if their interests were served under one umbrella. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI acknowledge all the work of the members of the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee in bringing this matter to a conclusion, and I thank them very much. This is a great day for M\u0101ori. We will hit the street, and we will be positive. We will understand our promise and fulfil our potential\u2014and I say we should not vote for the M\u0101ori Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9b09585f5c14793ae2dde9f205b30a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9b09585f5c14793ae2dde9f205b30a2\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party wants M\u0101ori to go fishing. We want them to fish their assets, their quota, on their boats, for their people. We do not want M\u0101ori forced into the courts. We do not want M\u0101ori in constant debate with the Crown. Like M\u0101ori themselves, we just want them to go fishing. That is why the National Party supports this bill. After 13 long years, and a century for many, we just want M\u0101ori to go fishing. However, we know that this is a transitional bill, and that is what we will publicly call it. M\u0101ori will be back for changes, and we say rightly so. We expect them to be. We will not be surprised when they appeal, simply because this Government has refused some freedoms where there is limited control for M\u0101ori over their own assets\u2014not anybody else\u2019s assets; not the Government\u2019s to decide what they do with them, but their own assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn fact, the Minister did introduce a bill\u2014and we are not going to stand back from this; we will state it\u2014that was, in part, quite condescending and patronising. For instance, we were intrigued to see a low level of accountability for Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd and Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd to iwi in one aspect, yet iwi\u2014mandated iwi organisations within the bill\u2014had a huge amount of accountability that they had to fulfil to their members and to Government institutions like the Inland Revenue Department and the like. A huge amount of accountability is entailed for them, such as, audits, reporting back, going back to their members, having to get votes, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe question that Georgina te Heuheu and I asked at the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee was: \u201CHow is it that mainstream organisations, businesses, and companies do not have to meet these stringent requirements of accountability, but we are going to make M\u0101ori organisations in the fishing industry jump through all these hoops?\u201D. We say that it cuts both ways. Don Brash has been talking about the fact that there has not been a level playing field whereby in some instances in health and education M\u0101ori might be receiving more attention than others. It cuts both ways. Why should M\u0101ori, under this bill, have to jump through more hoops and be more accountable than mainstream organisations? Does the Government not trust M\u0101ori to organise their own assets and their own affairs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe bill remains condescending and patronising in other aspects. The National Party put forward some amendments that were glossed over by the Government. We asked that M\u0101ori should have more say in the directorship of New Zealand\u2019s largest fishing company, Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd. We asked that some of the layers\u2014there are about five layers of governance between M\u0101ori on the ground and the directors of the company\u2014be taken out. We suggested a way of doing that, but it was rejected. We also presented amendments to enable proven M\u0101ori organisations to withdraw all of their assets, including deep-sea quota, to put into use as they saw best. With the current arrangement M\u0101ori are able to directly control only half their quota, and we see that as a tad patronising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIwi did have some victories, though, with this bill. In the bill as introduced, some iwi like Ng\u0101i Tahu and Tainui were not recognised but had to jump through all sorts of recognition hoops. Even though they had had a Crown settlement, had been through the courts, and had structures in place to deal with settlements, they had to prove their mana again. Iwi came to the select committee and said that that was absurd, and the committee, which I am proud to have been part of, made sure that there was a significant amendment so that if such iwi organisations want, they could be given automatic recognition. That was a win. If they are formally structured and accountable to their members, if they have established an asset-holding company, and if they have already been accepted by the Crown as having a mandate for Treaty of Waitangi settlement purposes, they should be given recognition, and I applaud that change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThere were also issues around coastline agreements that were likely to hold up the allocation, whereby if there was a dispute over a part of a coastline, the allocation for the whole coastline would be held up in the courts. A change was made there. Now if a small area of coastline is under dispute, that is held and it goes through a process, but the rest of the allocation can go forward, and that is sensible and we were glad to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe did have the issue of the restriction of sale and swap of quota, because there are limitations on realising the value of fishing operations because of the requirement for iwi to sell capital items, quota, or shares only to iwi or Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd. We said to M\u0101ori that their asset and their quota will be devalued if they can sell only within M\u0101oridom. But they told us, time and time again, that although the restriction on the sale of shares and quota has the potential to affect their asset\u2019s value, it was an accepted consequence of the settlement. They understand that but they want their generation, the generations after them, and again generations to follow, to get the benefit. They support this aspect of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational supports this transitional legislation, because we want to see M\u0101ori go fishing. But we know that it is transitional legislation, because M\u0101ori will need changes to it. These issues will come up because they eventually will want full control of their asset, and that is something they should certainly have. National, though, supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022 data-id=\u00225f46a8a4c03c45b6b9dddc71bb4982b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f46a8a4c03c45b6b9dddc71bb4982b9\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Te mea tuatahi m\u0101ku, kei te mihi atu ki ng\u0101 kaum\u0101tua e noho mai r\u0101, e Koro, e Doug Kidd, e Graham. Kei te mihi atu ki a koutou katoa m\u014D t\u0113nei r\u0101 tino nui rawa atu m\u014D te iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI am just acknowledging our three kaum\u0101tua, Doug Graham, Koro W\u0113tere, and Doug Kidd. I also want to acknowledge members of the commission and another kaum\u0101tua, Sir Tipene O\u2019Regan. I think it is appropriate that these kaum\u0101tua, these gentlemen, are acknowledged in terms of the history and the origins of this legislation. It is quite interesting for me to stand here and listen to some of the contributions that have been made by my colleagues across on the other side of the floor. I think when we listen to the contribution made by the Hon Parekura Horomia and the response he got from the other side, it shows us exactly the reason why this issue has been on the boil for over 12 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI have listened to my whanaunga Winston Peters\u2014and I acknowledge his whanaungatanga in terms of Ng\u0101ti Wai\u2014talk about the new net going fishing, and how the old one has a lot of holes in it. I am going to tell the House that I am a bit of a fisherman from way back, and I certainly know about holes in nets. I think when it comes to the time when there are so many holes, it is time not only to patch up the holes or to buy a new net but perhaps for my whanaunga to buy himself a longline. Certainly some of the contributions he has made have been very enlightening to the House with regard to his whakapapa with the National Party; it is very interesting in terms of the origins of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EIt is a big day for M\u0101oridom. What I would like to advocate for our people is that this Government is delivering for M\u0101ori. It has been a long and tortuous pathway for us to get here. I can see the National Party over there frothing at the mouth and squinting and saying: \u201CWe have heard about this before.\u201D, but the reality is that today we are here at the end of line and we are delivering the goods. Our people will go out fishing. Not only will we challenge this industry; we own over 50 percent of it from the corporate model. We will get it. We will start cooking, and not with hangi stones but with gas. We are going to start cooking with gas. We have a corporate model here, and I look forward to Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd at the end of the day coming out with a big bottom line and saying that M\u0101oridom has made a big profit. We support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EOn the other side, there is a process to deliver the goods to our iwi through the mandated iwi organisation provisions in this legislation\u2014that is, to deliver to mandated iwi organisations that will ultimately deliver what belongs to the people at the grass roots. That gives me great encouragement, and this House should be proud of it. It is the only time in the history of this nation that legislation like this has been supported by this House, whereby the mechanisms actually deliver to the grass roots of our wh\u0101nau and our hap\u016B. Since their disenfranchisement in the late 1980s many of our people have been waiting, p\u0113nei i te k\u0101wau nei i runga i te k\u014Dhatu\u2014like a shag on the rock. I do not know, Mr Speaker, whether you have seen a shag on the rock but, usually, that bird is waiting for a fish to jump\u2014e tatari ana kia peke te takeke; waiting for the piper to jump. I say to this House that the waiting is now over. The piper has jumped, and the k\u0101wau has flown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI want to commend, to congratulate, and to acknowledge the contribution of my colleagues on the select committee, and specifically our chairperson Russell Fairbrother. He has been a good chairman and put up with a lot of argy-bargy. I do not want to say that in M\u0101ori, because somebody might ask me to interpret what I really mean. Russell Fairbrother has been a very fair chairman. I know that my colleague Phil Heatley knows more about this bill than his colleague Gerry Brownlee. I invite Gerry Brownlee to go on to one of the waka one day, go out fishing, and understand what fishing is all about. I will have to raise the Titanic, and I am sorry about that, but we do not have a waka big enough for the deputy leader of the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EThis is a big day for M\u0101oridom. I am glad to be here this evening to share this day with our kaum\u0101tua colleagues, the commission, and Sir T\u012Bpene O\u2019Regan. I hope that at the end of this session we will all be invited to a bit of a celebration, where members of this House can taste the cuisine of the M\u0101ori quota\u2014crayfish and its delicacies. N\u014D reira me mutu \u0101ku k\u014Drero. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E[So, I must end my remarks here.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI would even invite Ken Shirley. I know that the generosity of our people will invite him, even though he wants to sell everything. That is the reason why he does not support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira, t\u016B atu ana ki konei ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 whare ki te mihi wh\u0101nui atu ki a koutou katoa. Whakarongo mai te iwi M\u0101ori, ko t\u0113nei te r\u0101 whakahirahira, whakanui puta noa i t\u014D t\u0101tou motu. Huri ana, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, \u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora mai an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E[And so I stand here to acknowledge you all broadly. I want you the M\u0101ori people to take heed. This is a significant and important day for us throughout our country. So greetings and greetings to you throughout, and greetings indeed to all of us. Thank you all.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00221e7394de781f45acbbcb841751497490\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e7394de781f45acbbcb841751497490\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I am very pleased to follow my colleague the Hon Dover Samuels, and I agree with him that this is a great day for M\u0101ori, but it is also a good day for this House, as well. I do not think we should ever forget that these things come to pass because, ultimately, some people in this Parliament see the rightness of doing these sorts of things. We do not have to pat ourselves on the back, but we need to remind New Zealanders that in making these things come to pass on their behalf, we set ourselves apart in the world for dealing in a very open and honest way with issues that are quite difficult, and we have seen some of the difficulty occur in recent times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the leadership that concluded the fisheries settlement of 1992, because it is that settlement that is the basis of the legislation before us today. Obviously, I cannot name all of the leaders who were involved, but there are, first of all, two who have passed on whom I want to name\u2014Sir Robert M\u0101huta and the Hon Matiu Rata. I understand that, along with Sir T\u012Bpene O\u2019Regan, they were the leading negotiators on the M\u0101ori side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOn the political side, I think we are probably all quite chuffed to see in the House this afternoon the Hon Koro W\u0113tere, the Hon Doug Kidd, and the Hon Doug Graham. They are sitting there like the trifecta. I suppose they have reason to feel a little bit pleased, as well. I understand that politics were not an issue at the time that they were negotiating the fisheries settlement with M\u0101ori, and I kind of think that it might have been quite good to be around at that time because these days politics is the only issue is it not? I want to acknowledge those gentlemen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EClearly, political leadership on both sides of the House made sure that that M\u0101ori fisheries settlement was concluded, and it is political leadership today that makes sure that this legislation is passed through into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EDuring the Committee stage National was certainly unhappy with the legislation as it stands, but there is a good reason that we support it. My colleagues have already referred to that, and I referred to those things in my first reading speech. It is in relation to a recognition that was there in 1992. It was an issue of settling the past and re-uniting M\u0101ori with their property right in the fish. However, this asset represents a huge economic go-forward plank for M\u0101ori, and if it does that for M\u0101ori, then it does it for the country as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOne of the things we can give some credit to Te Ohu Kai Moana for is the way it has managed the assets in the meantime. We have now reached the stage where Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd, Sealord\u2019s, is a major player in the sector. It is recognised nationally and internationally. Now that the assets are to be allocated in part to their rightful owners, M\u0101ori, and the other part to a conglomerate sitting at the top in the form of a big company, Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd, then we can only hope that the economic potential that was recognised in 1992 will, indeed, be realised once this framework that the legislation sets out is put into place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EBut I cannot let this opportunity pass without expressing major disappointment that after 11 years or so of a forum finding a way to allocate these significant assets, we have a framework here that National believes is overly bureaucratic; it is convoluted to some degree, more so than is necessary, it separates the true owners, M\u0101ori, from their asset by about six layers, and my colleague Phil Heatley referred to the fact that as introduced the legislation created a huge number of hoops for M\u0101ori people to jump through, without a corresponding accountability lying in either Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd or Te Ohu kai Moana Trustee Ltd. Work in the select committee has improved that, but to my mind the bill is essentially still a disappointment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E Yes, the commission has obviously worked hard, and so have M\u0101ori. Sure, there has been a lot of litigation in 11 years. The stakes are high, but after all of that, we still come to a framework that probably resembles a framework that one would expect a Labour Party policy team to put together, rather than M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I say, the assets must go out. I am certain that that is why, in the end, M\u0101ori were willing to make the compromise they did, because they knew that those assets must go to them. It is just a pity that a significant proportion of the assets will still be tied up with this sort of central controlling body. My colleagues are right in the sense that this will probably come back to us, because M\u0101ori will want to be set free. It is a little bit of a cage that they have been put into here. It is like they have been treated as though they are witless. Clearly, they are not. There is a huge booming M\u0101ori economy out there that should suggest to the Labour Government that the kind of framework that holds M\u0101ori back to this degree is not appropriate. In any event, it is a good day in the sense that there is the potential for the creation of economic wealth and economic prosperity, and that is why we support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u002280f3613a66b6419188788d291f702930\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280f3613a66b6419188788d291f702930\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Tainui):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100, e kore e mutu ng\u0101 mihi ki a r\u0101tou m\u0101 kua huri ki tua o te \u0101rai, heke iho mai ki a t\u0101tou e huihui mai nei i t\u0113nei rangi, \u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[The acknowledgments to those who have passed on and indeed to us gathered here today will never end, so greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI rise to speak to the third reading and the passing of the Maori Fisheries Bill. This legislation puts to rest over 10 years of dispute and consultation amongst iwi and M\u0101ori. It is probably the most significant legislation to be passed into law in the last 100 years, and it heralds a new way forward. Not all M\u0101ori will be happy with the outcome, but then, not all M\u0101ori supported the settlement. None the less, all M\u0101ori should benefit from the business and activity of fishing that this legislation will effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EA moment of history was reached in 1992, but most certainly events leading to that point should be a poignant memory for all New Zealanders who saw the beginning of a real desire to just get on with it. Much of the debate today is academic. The fisheries settlement was about real people, real fish, real benefits going back to iwi, and going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI acknowledge here today the Hon Koro W\u0113tere, the Hon Doug Kidd, and the Hon Doug Graham. They have many stories to tell tonight, and I am sure we will hear a lot of them. I also acknowledge the original negotiators, some of whom have been mentioned. Those who are here today include Sir Tipene O\u2019Regan and Sir Graham Latimer. I also acknowledge those who not here today\u2014significantly, the late Hon Matiu Rata and the late Robert M\u0101huta, my father. Their efforts have not been in vain, and their vision is, as it was when it was achieved, timeless: to see a strong economic platform for M\u0101ori advancement and development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EOne of the more contentious issues in the legislation was the provision for the disaggregation of iwi and their quota. That matter was raised by submitters, and, after a great deal of consideration, the committee agreed to such measures. However, it should be noted that it will be a challenge in an already fractious political environment for M\u0101ori and iwi organisations to retain, and maintain, collective fisheries interests in larger groupings. I anticipate that much effort will go into retaining collective interests, and accountability standards will certainly go up to meet the needs of tribal members, and that is how it should be. The select committee process, in particular, was a genuine attempt to work through the issues of iwi recognition, accountability of corporate entities and mandated iwi organisations back to tribal members, and intergenerational retention of property rights, all of which are contained within the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EParticular thanks should go to the Ministry of Fisheries\u2019 advisers, led by Terry Lynch, to the clerk of the committee, to Parliamentary Counsel Office, to Briar Gordon, whose work was invaluable, and to our independent adviser, Tim Castle, who helped the committee get its head around the issues presented in the legislation. There was constructive debate across, and along, the table about some of the real contentious issues, but the desire really just to see M\u0101ori get on with it and do things for themselves, was genuine. I particularly acknowledge members of the Opposition, because, without their constructive input and support, we would not have reached a number of the conclusions that we came to\u2014namely, Phil Heatley, Georgina te Heuheu, and Pita Paraone. The genuine attempt to get to something just to kick it off could not have been achieved without that type of support. I also acknowledge Larry Baldock. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI am sure that the ebb and flow of the tide will present many challenges to Te Ohu Kai Moana in its new revamped form, its fisheries companies, and the iwi fisheries companies. And so we have it\u2014a waka ready to be launched so the new net can go fishing. In time, I look forward to when the safety ropes can be taken off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EHe iti an\u014D t\u0101ku m\u014D t\u0113nei kaupapa kei mua i a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei w\u0101, n\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[This is just my little contribution towards the bill before us today, so greetings to all of us.]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMaori Fisheries Bill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227a39a2498c1d4d6f9f60ecb6827176f0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Te Ture Whenua Maori Amendment Bill (No 2) / Maori Land Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; United Future 8; Progressive 2; Maori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; ACT New Zealand 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225261cfc6fa8a42318af0496c7b1a5813\u0022\u003EPublic Records Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002283aa2a0030804261ba9effc19a7a141f\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3d1a5a42cd74f389743d8a0a8f80dff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3d1a5a42cd74f389743d8a0a8f80dff\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister responsible for Archives New Zealand):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Public Records Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I will move that the bill be referred to the Government Administration Committee. This bill repeals the Archives Act and the document and archive provisions in Part 17 of the Local Government Act 1974. It reflects the changes in technology, legislation, and record-keeping practices that have occurred in the last half-century. Public records provide evidence of Government activities and are a key component of ensuring public accountability. They enhance democracy by informing citizens about issues, decision-making processes, and results. They also contribute to who we are as a nation by recording people\u2019s experiences with Government. The growth of email and the Internet has created a new set of challenges, including the erosion of administrative record-keeping practises and the increasing complexity of recording business transactions. The bill addresses those challenges by establishing record-keeping requirements for public offices and local authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EArchives New Zealand was established as a stand-alone Government department in 2000. The Government strengthened the role of Archives New Zealand to enable it to provide leadership, to set standards for consistent and effective record-keeping, and to enhance communication between agencies. Public records are a key component of ensuring that Governments are accountable to society for decisions made and actions taken. Public records provide essential evidence of people\u2019s rights and entitlements, the actions of Governments\u2014both positive and negative\u2014since 1840, and record a history of individuals, wh\u0101nau, communities, and society as a whole. Good record-keeping within Governments improves the accountability of Government institutions by providing reliable evidence of their decisions, actions, and interactions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EPublic archives are a tremendously rich resource of evidence about our collective past. They enhance New Zealanders\u2019 sense of national identity by enabling us to piece together the ever-changing story of who we are and how we got here. Archives New Zealand has holdings of 80,000 linear metres of textual records, 750,000 photographs, 300,000 maps and plans, 1,300 works of art, comprising the New Zealand war-art collection, and 20,000 motion picture reels. Archives New Zealand is also custodian\u2014and I notice the empty gallery\u2014of the Treaty of Waitangi and the women\u2019s suffrage petition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003ESince the Archives Act was passed in 1957, the Official Information Act and the Privacy Act have come into being. They also provide systems for accessing and managing Government information. The Public Records Bill clarifies how those other Acts interface with the archives legislation. We have also seen the establishment of State-owned enterprises and Crown-owned companies, which have resulted in ambiguity about what agencies are covered by the Archives Act. The bill addresses this. It provides a broad definition of public office, and a mechanism to encompass any future governance models. The bill creates a record-keeping framework that will ensure that public records are managed appropriately until their authorised disposal. Disposal is a technical term in this context; it means the transfer to Archives New Zealand for permanent preservation or destruction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe bill also ensures that there is broad coverage of the activities of Government and that public archives will be accessible. Transparent processes give the Government and the public confidence that the evidence of the Government\u2019s actions contained in public records is properly managed. The policy for records of local authorities is similar to the framework for central government, but will reflect their community focus and autonomy from central government. This means that local authorities are not subject to the reporting or auditing requirements of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe following are key provisions. The bill confirms the duty of the Chief Archivist to exercise leadership in record-keeping in public offices and in the management of public archives in New Zealand. The bill continues the authority of the Chief Archivist to decide which Government records may be destroyed or otherwise disposed of and confirms independence from ministerial directive in discharging this duty. The bill will apply across the broad public sector to include not only public service departments but also tertiary institutions, State schools, district health boards and other Crown entities, State-owned enterprises, and offices of Parliament\u2014amongst others. The bill provides a broad definition of records and confirms the inclusion of electronic records and non-textual media. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe bill recognises that there is a legitimate interest in decisions made about record-keeping in Government. It establishes an Archives Council, which will advise the Minister on archives and record-keeping matters. Two members of this council must have knowledge of tikanga M\u0101ori to ensure that M\u0101ori views are taken into account. There are increased consultation expectations imposed on the Chief Archivist, including a requirement for public comment to be sought on disposal recommendations. The bill continues the role of the Chief Archivist in protecting and providing access to Government records that have long-term value and that need to be kept permanently as archives. Such archives must come under the Chief Archivist\u2019s control after 25 years, but this can happen earlier by agreement. The right of the public to inspect such archives, free of charge, is confirmed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EWhere there are reasons for controlling access to public archives, such as protection of privacy, this is protected; and the public office that transferred the archives will make decisions on access according to relevant legislation, such as the Official Information Act and the Privacy Act. There will be occasions when public archives are better kept by the office that created them\u2014for example, some specialised electronic records. The bill is flexible enough to allow these arrangements, while ensuring the archives are protected according to standards set by the Chief Archivist. Disposal decisions made under the Archives Act will remain valid through a transition provision. They will also apply to access decisions and other arrangements made for the transfer of archives to Archives New Zealand, and those also continue as if they were made under the provisions of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe bill confirms that the Chief Archivist has a role in fostering archival capacity within the community and in facilitating access to archives. The bill sets a context in which the Treaty of Waitangi is to apply in public record-keeping and specifies what actions need to be undertaken in order to comply. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5607ba62e2e4d8fab0e7ca93f7b52c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5607ba62e2e4d8fab0e7ca93f7b52c4\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand to speak to the Public Records Bill. National will support the bill going to the Government Administration Committee. However, we certainly want to have a good look at it when it is before that committee. There are one or two issues we will have some questions about during that stage, and we will probably seek advice on them, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ENational agrees with the underlying principle driving the bill. The purpose, as the Minister said, is to create a record-keeping framework for Government records, and we support that. Over recent years it has become so much more important that we as New Zealanders make sure that a proper record of our history is in our archives and that we properly recognise those things that are distinct and unique to us in our identity as New Zealanders. Legislative provisions that date back to 1947, given advances in technology alone, make it necessary for us now to have a look at this very important area of activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want to raise a couple of points relating to some of National\u2019s concerns. The Minister referred to the Treaty of Waitangi clause, and I acknowledge that this seems to be a new approach to issues around the treaty. I remember that when the Government was passing its health legislation in 2001\u2014I am not quite sure about the date\u2014a general treaty clause was proposed. I asked at the time why we should not, rather than having a generic treaty clause\u2014which ultimately always seemed to lead to litigation, or which, on another view of it, may mean nothing at all\u2014judge what it is we want to protect, then specifically spell that out. It seems to me that clause 7 does that. It states: \u201CIn order to recognise and respect the Crown\u2019s responsibility to take appropriate account of the Treaty of Waitangi \u2026\u201D, then sets out what is sought to be protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EFor instance, paragraph (a) of clause 7 states that clause 11 requires the Chief Archivist to ensure that processes are in place for consulting M\u0101ori. I am not saying that we necessarily agree with that, because the issue of consultation in a range of legislation seems to have gone a bit overboard; none the less, it sets out what is considered important in respect of treaty obligations in this case. Paragraph (b) states that clause 14 requires that at least two members of the Archives Council have a knowledge of tikanga M\u0101ori, and paragraph (d) states that clause 26 recognises that an iwi-based or hap\u016B-based repository may be approved as a repository where public archives may be deposited for safe keeping. That is interesting, and I look forward to receiving some advice from the officials in the select committee as to how that is to work and about what it actually means. It is important to recognise that many hap\u016B and iwi have frameworks or processes whereby they keep things they consider to be of value, not just to themselves but to us as New Zealanders. So it is likely that that is an appropriate provision, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I say, National is particularly interested in clause 7. For myself, I am interested to see that it takes a different approach to the treaty and spells out what it is that the Government thinks ought to be protected, as against having some nebulous treaty clause, which, over the years, has come to mean not a hang of a lot, in some cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe other area is the interface between official information and public records. Under the Official Information Act, it is not an offence to destroy official information, yet the definitions of official information and public records seem to overlap. So there seems to be a gap there. If that is not the case, then we will find out soon enough. I listened to the Minister\u2019s speech, but I do not expect that an issue such as that would necessarily be traversed in a first reading speech. I just flag with her that we possibly have an issue there, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThere is one other area I would like to raise, because one of my colleagues had a group come to him with an issue that touches on the Privacy Act. Archives are a record that belongs to us all after a certain time, and the bill constantly mentions access. There are people whose lifelong work, or whose job or profession, is in archival research. In fact, a lot of what we will do in the future, and the decisions we make today for the future, are based on that as well. A concern has been raised that in this bill an attempt may be made to try to restrict access, to the point where privacy issues unnecessarily impinge upon legitimate archival research. That is an area of real concern. We would not want to see that happen, and we will be scrutinising the bill\u2019s provisions to ensure it does not. Otherwise, we certainly support the thrust of the bill. It is in the interest of all New Zealanders to make sure we have a good process for keeping records. Ostensibly, this bill appears to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u002236bc201b265c4aab908aaeee1670fa49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236bc201b265c4aab908aaeee1670fa49\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is a sign of the maturity of the country when we begin to take into account and give high regard to our past. Therefore, New Zealand First supports the Public Records Bill going to the select committee. Apparently 20 years ago, I am told, such a bill was in the House, and it may be that this bill will have a similar fate. In 1984 this very matter was being discussed, and someone called a general election. Fate intervened, and 20 years later it is back here with us. I am not necessarily saying that that will be the fate of this bill, because it deserves a much better fate than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EIn looking through the years and with the knowledge of modern technology, it may be that we can say that this bill comes in the fullness of time. We have today the ability to store and restore documents and records, and a far greater knowledge of how they can be preserved long term. We see the immense value of a systematic approach, not only for central government but also for local government, in the way these matters are taken in hand. For future researchers, would-be historians, planners, and so on, this bill in time, when it is implemented and put into practice, should be a ready source of easier access. That brings me to one of the issues we do see, which is that access is maintained and is there, with some qualifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EHowever, the issue in this bill that really intrigues me is that for the first time, as the Hon Georgina te Heuheu has just said, there is a properly constructed purpose clause about the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014at long last. New Zealand First has called for that over the years, and has talked about the Treaty of Waitangi clause being\u2014to use the old-fashioned historian\u2019s phrase\u2014\u201Chigh-sounding nothing\u201D, in Metternich\u2019s words. But at long last, a bill has arrived in the House with a treaty clause that expands and sets out with clarity what that clause means for this bill with regard to the issue of public records. We in New Zealand First are pleased to see that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EClause 7 states, in relation to the functions of the Chief Archivist and the Archives Council, what advice will guide them with regard to tikanga M\u0101ori. It also picks up the fact that there may be some unique methods of record-keeping\u2014and there are, of course. Last of all, it states that hap\u016B or iwi may have places where those records may reside. In respect of that, I would hope that the same access procedures are able to be carried out wherever those records reside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWe have worked through the provisions relating to functions and duties, and they seem to us to be eminently sensible and straightforward. I will not take the time of the House much longer, but I say that we hope those issues that are not so clear on first reading will become a matter of concern at the select committee. Specialists always find unique matters that are of particular and peculiar concern to them, and if those specialists are out there, we hope they will come readily to the select committee and help to put together what looks to be a sound bill, and a bill that will preserve for the future a more adequate knowledge of the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u0022e204f641a770439981c19743eb4e48be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e204f641a770439981c19743eb4e48be\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am presenting this speech on behalf of my colleague Keith Locke, who cannot be with us today. The Green Party will be supporting this bill. It establishes a more systematic approach to the keeping and disposal of public records, even though it still gives too much leeway to Ministers to withhold documents from the archives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003ELaudably, the bill strives to achieve collection in the archives of all appropriate public documents. The new body, Archives New Zealand, will be an independent Crown entity, and there will be an advisory Archives Council. The Chief Archivist will be independent and not subject to ministerial direction. The Chief Archivist has the power to issue mandatory guidelines covering the retention and disposal of public records, and may direct local government to preserve particular records. The Chief Archivist will also arrange for independent audits of record-keeping in Government offices. There will be more a independent, systematic, and transparent approach to archive collection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EIt is also good that the archives will be open to the public free of charge, although public users may have to pay photocopying costs. Free access is important because we want to encourage historical research, and the fact is that many of our amateur historians do not have much money. They are doing it for love, not profit. Many of them are retired and are living on a pension, but the product of their labours is often of great worth to the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EResearchers get very frustrated when key materials are not in the archives or they are shut out by restrictive access rules. This is not a new problem, but wording in the new bill gives Ministers and heads of Government departments a lot of discretion in keeping material out of the public domain. It is good that there is a general provision in clause 21 for the mandatory transfer of public records after 25 years. However, this provision is immediately qualified by clause 22, which gives Ministers, after consultation with the archives Minister, the power to defer the transfer of records for any period determined by the Minister, and then gives the Minister the power to renew that deferral at any later time for any further period. The Minister can refuse to transfer documents that might prejudice security. In reality, there is little that will prejudice security 25 years after the fact, other than the identities of still-under-Government operatives. Twenty-five years ago the cold war was still raging, and Muldoon was still in power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EAfter 25 years, Ministers may well prevent the release of material, not for real security reasons but to protect their departments from public embarrassment. For example, I have recently received, under the Official Information Act, and at the end of quite a few requests, a memo dated 28 July 1975 from one Brian Lynch, writing on behalf of the Secretary of Foreign Affairs. It reported on a meeting Mr Lynch had with the then Fretilin secretary-general, and now East Timorese Foreign Minister, Mr Jose Ramos Horta. In the memo, the secretary admits without any qualms that he lied to Mr Horta. In paragraph 4, he writes that: \u201CDespite the confidence we displayed to the contrary, we are sure that the Indonesians have not in fact dismissed the possibility of achieving integration by force if they consider the situation requires it.\u201D At the same time, Mr Lynch said to Mr Horta that: \u201CHe was sure that at senior Indonesian Government level, armed intervention had been ruled out.\u201D That is, 4 months out from the Indonesian invasion, the New Zealand Government knew that it was on the cards, yet lied about it to the East Timorese. According to the documents, the content of the Lynch/Horta discussion was then passed on to the Indonesians. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EWe are not just talking about a ministry being embarrassed for its dishonesty. Taken together with all the other East Timor documents released in recent years, they show that the invasion of East Timor and all the agony that followed may have been avoided if the New Zealand and Australian Governments had stood up and been counted in 1975. Instead, they collaborated with the Indonesian regime, and covered it up. At the end, they wanted to keep friendly relations with the Suharto Government, even if it meant sacrificing the East Timorese people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThat is where the bill is dangerous in another way, in that one of the grounds for a Minister not transferring documents is that doing so might \u201Cprejudice international relations of the Government of New Zealand\u201D. I argue that making public the documents on our disastrous past relations with the Indonesian dictatorship actually improves our relationship with the modern democratic forces in that country. Bureaucrats in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade may have the opposite view, and the Minister may well act on their advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EWhatever the outcome of that argument, the Minister can fall back on the third reason in the bill for refusing transfer of documents, which is that the transfer might \u201Cprejudice the entrusting of information\u201D to New Zealand by a foreign Government. To continue with my Indonesia illustration, it may well be argued that we cannot release the East Timor documents because there are letters and cables in them that the Indonesian Government wants to keep secret. At first sight, any undue restrictions might be countered by the Chief Archivist\u2019s right under the bill to inspect records held by a department. However, the Chief Archivist\u2019s access to any classified or restricted material can be vetoed by the head of the relevant department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003ETo give members an idea of the outrageous restrictions that can be imposed, let us look at the Security Intelligence Service, which says that information on SIS staff cannot be released until 100 years after their deaths. Technical information on SIS operations also has a 100-year time limit, and subject files, a 50-year limit. It is precisely the most embarrassing and controversial parts of our history that we can learn the most from. An error understood is an error not repeated. How can we really learn from what the SIS may have done wrong, if we have to wait 50 or 100 years, by which time all the people who could enlighten us are well in their graves? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EWe need procedures to stop unnecessary delays in transferring material to the archives. The Australian Law Reform Commission, for example, has proposed independent review bodies to stop material staying classified well beyond the normal archives deadline. It says that those reviews should continue at 5-year intervals. The commission has hit the nail on the head when it says that: \u201CInformation must not be classified for extraneous reasons\u2014for example, to conceal breaches of the law, inefficiency, or administrative error; to prevent embarrassment to a person, organisation, or agency.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EOne might argue that we have the Official Information Act process with recourse to the Ombudsman, which applies to most information still held by Government departments, and that is a useful fallback. But for historians, that is always of limited use, because it is often hard to know exactly what to ask for in documents one has never seen, and departmental officials are used to playing sophisticated games with the inquirer. In any case, someone writing an interesting history is looking for the unexpected; something that he or she did not know about, and would not think to ask for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EOpen archives are much more valuable for such research. There is one reason why we do not want many outs for the Ministers and top bureaucrats in the Public Records Bill. Hopefully, we will see several contributions from researchers, historians, and lawyers in the select committee process to address any of the bill\u2019s weaknesses in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022788063341a3b4fc481b0040a3f7f8720\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022788063341a3b4fc481b0040a3f7f8720\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise for the ACT party in this first reading of the Public Records Bill, which, as the Minister introducing it believes, shows an increasing respect or reverence for our history, in what she calls the ever-changing story of who we are and how we got here. A speech like that on a bill that most members would consider very technical, dry, and non-contentious, is a chance to reflect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have to say that I enjoy history. I love the magazine that we get from Antrim House every month or two. I even confess to enjoying Sounds Historical\u2014and I can see a lip curling on the other side of the House because Mr Hughes would consider that that was a typical fogeyish pleasure\u2014and I really do enjoy historical tourism. I can spend days in museums.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E But I worry about this bill. I worry about the preoccupation of New Zealand with its history, and I worry about the claim that that shows some form of maturity. Exploring a contentious or glorious past, examining our navels over and over again, and taking enormous care about recording our history might actually be quite irrelevant if, in fact, we are too immaterial or irrelevant a people for anyone, including our children, to even stay around. Let us think about the times one goes on foreign travels to see those mysterious and vast ruins and jungles of Asia, or artefacts in South America and so many other places where people have lived for thousands of years and transformed the landscape. But nothing is remembered, and the reason\u2014completely unlike the history of, say, the United Kingdom, Rome, or many of the countries dominant in the world today\u2014is simply that history is irrelevant if the people who think it is important are no longer relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI worry that we will put a great deal of effort into keeping archives, when we have, in fact, lost respect for the truth\u2014respect for the idea that it really does matter what we are storing. Even the casual phrase the Minister used to introduce this bill: \u201Cthe ever-changing story of who we are and how we got here\u201D, has been changing because of political correctness. It has been changing because parts of our history are inconvenient. It does not matter how good our archives are, if we think\u2014as Dr Michael Bassett recently told us the Waitangi Tribunal thinks\u2014that history should be at the service of modern politics, and that rewriting the story is OK if it serves a valuable purpose. If we can decry the efforts and good intentions of our forebears because we now hold different values, then there is not much point in having a really flash Archives Act or public records legislation, and in storing it all. If we really have become insignificant, our songs and stories will pass into dust, whatever we do to try to preserve them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI also worry about this bill because I wonder who will bother to read most of the stuff. The attention span of our audiences is about 15 seconds for most items of what is considered important news. I contrast that with, say, the Dominion of only 50 years ago, which could have had tens of column inches reporting a debate on a significant topic and properly reporting the nuances of each member\u2019s speech. We were a more serious people. Maybe the Pope is right\u2014if we are to spend our time in playing sport and being entertained, then there is not much point in keeping enormous records. [Interruption] Maybe he has a record!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWorse, we do not believe in history when we pass legislation like the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act, which was passed this year, and under which the Government instructs probably around 700,000 New Zealanders to lie about their past. What use is public records legislation and a pretended respect for history when the Government passed a bill only 6 months ago that says to 700,000 New Zealanders that when they are asked about a criminal record, they should lie and say they do not have one. It is absolutely hypocritical for us as a people to be doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is really interesting how things disappear by rewriting history in that way, simply because\u2014and here is the justification that was offered\u2014it shows compassion and it is proper to forgive. How significant is it\u2014of what worth is it\u2014to oblige local authorities all over the country to keep their records for 25 years when, if the records become inconvenient and offend someone, the ethos of the Government we have now is to wipe them, suppress them, make sure they are rewritten, pretend they do not exist, and airbrush them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThat is what happens when we show, through a Government measure, the truth that history does not matter. It may seem a bit of stretch to raise the matter of the Public Records Bill in relation to the clean slate legislation the Government forced through such a short time ago, but I believe that it shows a deep hypocrisy in the elite, ruling classes of this country when they can pretend such respect for history towards things that do not matter, then pass a law to instruct people to lie about things that do matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI also sound a note of caution that there are some pretty broad discretions in this bill, about declaring things as having to be compulsorily stored. We should remember just how hard it is now to store things. Really interesting things disappear. I am sure we have all had the experience of losing a document we have worked on for a very long time. It vanishes because electronic storage is hard for us to understand and control\u2014and that is the situation when we really want to keep a document. How accurate will our future records be\u2014of what we really thought and meant\u2014when electronic records will be so easily culled, and for good reason? People will simply not want ever to dredge through an awful lot of the material now being generated in a modern bureaucracy, including material of a modern local authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo I ask the select committee when it looks at this bill to consider and keep in mind the reality of trying to require people to guard and protect records that they do not think are important at the time, when it is quite possible that the records that really matter\u2014the records that show what was really thought and why things were really done\u2014will be ephemeral or transitory. Such records can be removed or may not even be kept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe other thing I was struck by was the Green member\u2019s contribution that the unintended consequence of trying to force more openness than the actors in an event would want, is that they simply will not keep records. In relation to the Official Information Act, we have already had something of that effect. People do not keep minutes they do not want disclosed. Even that record from 1974 of the deliberately deceptive comment to the Fretilin member in East Timor, referred to in the Green member\u2019s speech, may well not have been kept today, because it would be known that a record like that would be accessible under the Official Information Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo we should not think there are free lunches; we should not think there are costless solutions. I hope the select committee, when it looks at this bill, remembers that if it imposes any significant or too heavy obligations, the likely result will be that the record will either never be created or will mysteriously disappear. The difficulty of telling whether it is a mysterious and unintended disappearance or a deliberate disappearance will be too great for anyone to revisit. I hope the select committee will be realistic in looking at this bill, worthy though its intentions are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022 data-id=\u00222503cf12d1a94e86a5881fafb98baac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222503cf12d1a94e86a5881fafb98baac9\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a brief call in the first reading of the Public Records Bill. United Future wishes to see this bill go through to the select committee. By and large, we are quite impressed with both the content and purposes of this bill. We have been alerted to a history that has occurred over the last 47 years, and it is probably good at this stage to bring it into the 21st century with an appropriate update and empowerment in terms of record-keeping. To that end, we are very happy to see this bill progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, as others have pointed out, areas of concern have been raised. The select committee in doing its task will probably look at those, and I hope will seriously consider some of the matters that have already been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of other matters that I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister and the select committee. One has to do with clause 14, which deals with the Archives Council. The clause states what the composition of the council ought to be, and subclause (3)(b) insists that there are at least two people on it who have a knowledge of tikanga M\u0101ori. I do not think anyone should have any problem with that, but I am concerned that it may be limiting when we compare it with clause 7 that talks about the well-defined Treaty of Waitangi rights and purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EThere are other great peoples and languages in New Zealand. For instance, not too long ago we were looking at the role of the Chinese population as a wave of workers in our country, and this Parliament has made an apology to that population over some of the issues that took place. If I recall correctly, we made a clear statement to the Chinese people that we wanted to honour them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EI am sure, then, that some of the archiving of our history will require the use of other linguistic skills. Therefore, we need people on the Archives Council\u2014or at least access to such people written into that clause\u2014who can understand the languages of some of the other groups that have settled in New Zealand\u2014Yugoslavs come to mind. It may be that we should not limit that clause just to the current position; so I would like the select committee to look at who is required to be on the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EOther clauses worth looking at that I want to draw to the attention of the select committee are clauses 61 and 62\u2014in particular, clause 62, which deals with penalties. I wonder whether the amounts of the fines\u2014in the case of an individual $2,000, and in every other case a maximum of $5,000\u2014will be adequate deterrents, and whether they will help in maintaining archives in New Zealand. Certainly, I think that that value system should be looked at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EIt is on that note of referring those items to the attention of the select committee that I say on behalf of United Future that this bill is really worthwhile for our nation. I commend it to the next stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226645f251829e4ad6890b2cf05041891c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226645f251829e4ad6890b2cf05041891c\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E National also will support this bill going to the select committee. The Minister responsible for Archives New Zealand identified the purposes and objectives of the bill, and we have no difficulty with them. However, we do have some concerns about the proposition that I will flag now, and we will be looking closely at what submitters have to say when they have the opportunity to make their submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E The major issues that we contend need to be looked at more closely include the Treaty of Waitangi clause, which specifically identifies what are treaty issues rather than normal forms of the wording. We will have to pursue that further. The second point is the interface between official information and public records under the Official Information Act. It is not an offence to destroy official information, yet the definitions of \u201Cofficial information\u201D and \u201Cpublic record\u201D seem to overlap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo there are some concerns. I note the Minister is still in the House. Those two areas are of concern to us, but I also note the work that was done way back in the earlier days when submissions took place in 2000 and 2001. I have here the submissions on the draft discussion paper on the proposed bill. They date back to June 2001. A number of issues were raised at that time. I will not ask the Minister about them now, because I know the time will come during the select committee stage and the Committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to flag that a number of issues and concerns were expressed. Submitters were concerned that not enough time was spent in going through this. The No. 1 concern was that the process leading to the development and circulation of the draft discussion paper did not permit sufficient time for stakeholders to fully debate the issues raised. The ad hoc committee was convened to debate the proposition that was ultimately circulated. The result posed more questions than it answered. It is a very telling point that the result posed more questions than it answered and was short on firm proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E So I now flag to the Minister and officials that there are a number of questions we will want answers to. During the select committee stage an organisation like the Archives and Records Association of New Zealand will hopefully be a submitter, along with others. I have a list of those who made proposals to the draft proposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI am also specifically concerned about the carry-through into the bill from the existing legislation, the Archives Act. Specifically, I am looking at section 16(2) of the Act, which requires the preparation of schedules of classes of public archives that are considered to be suitable for destruction, and section 16(1), which permits the Chief Archivist to authorise the immediate destruction of any specified classes of public archives. That is an area that, along with section 17\u2014in particular, section 17(2)\u2014requires lists to be prepared of specified public archives or classes of public archives that are not worth permanent preservation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAt this stage National is happy to support this bill through to a select committee. I know there are some technical issues that will need to be worked through, and we will deal with those at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBill read a first time, and referred to the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20040916327830a7643a4ed7ac77410c47a47115000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.47 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"