"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022274883896d8d4808beaee87f2bf31c61\u0022\u003EWednesday, 6 October 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f1a593f04334286b45e8625aeea8506\u0022\u003EWednesday, 6 October 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222971abc0ad65457b84179aee833c33af\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ac739bcbd0848518d59ecb9f362aba5\u0022\u003ELeader of the Opposition\u2014Attendance in House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002240c86a2c626141169c5df1cf3dacb011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c86a2c626141169c5df1cf3dacb011\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to move a non-controversial motion. In doing so, I gift to you, Mr Speaker, this visitors book, and move that you record in it those very rare and infrequent occasions upon which the leader of the National Party attends the House, perhaps starting today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208d90240a46f4694a2074b73f3dff86b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest the member might well be going out to listen to the vice-presidential debate on CNN.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214bdd89f0d484b59b4d469e9df653975\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002273e064f345d049eea7606817d71f7c92\u0022\u003EReplies to Written Questions\u2014Adequacy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00229e2fec5aba6b444a9dad87d9502b4b91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e2fec5aba6b444a9dad87d9502b4b91\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Members have raised this issue before, but I believe it is worthy of taking some of the time of the House. It relates to the difficulty the Opposition parties are having in getting answers from Ministers to parliamentary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIn particular, ACT has been trying for some months, with dozens of parliamentary questions to the Minister of Health, Annette King, to find out about what simply used to be the health waiting list. The health waiting list has been divided into three different queues. ACT and the National Party have been asking questions about that, and we have received answers from the Minister of Health referring us to the Ministry of Health\u2019s website. That is OK\u2014we are computer literate\u2014but when we have gone to the Ministry of Health\u2019s website, we have not found the answers to our questions, at all. We have continued, from last year through to this year, to ask questions about the numbers in the new category called GP Care\u2014those people who have been taken off the list and sent back to their doctor. The Minister could not answer those questions because she was away or she was sick. Finally, we got an answer that said the information was publicly available from the department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWell, we tried to get it from the department. We went to the Ministry of Health\u2019s website and we could not find it. We went off to the Parliamentary Library\u2014Annette King is nodding her head because I think she knows about this problem\u2014and staff members there looked on the website. They could not find it, either, so they approached the department. The department said that, no, that information is not publicly available and is not on the website \u2014Annette King is agreeing with me on this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022470e337b99e54058a7839239229ced8f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207cd4a9aa3764d5d981457eeeec3319e\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: She is not!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f16eac820eb45598a774e86ae6ca783\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please come to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d38de1add164aeb8a43e22440c61e3a\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I would\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd76cffb9cdc4839b3f854deb0b22007\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please come to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292199636599149da9bebdbf8cbb943b6\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: It is this: the Parliamentary Library, following Annette King\u2019s answers to us in Parliament, went to the Ministry of Health, which gave back the most extraordinary answer. It said that, yes, it had the information, but that it needed the Minister\u2019s permission to release it. That was at the end of months of trying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt is not just a case of my writing to you, Mr Speaker, or to the Minister of Health; it is a systemic problem that we have with this Government when we ask simple questions. First, the Government takes a long time to answer; second, when it gives the answer it is not an answer; third, when we follow up on an answer that tells us to go to a particular web page, we find that the information is not there; and, fourth, the Government tells us that the information is publicly available, but, finally, the department responds and says that, no, it is not publicly available. This is a trashing of Parliament and a trashing of accountability. I will be writing to you, Mr Speaker, about this, but I want you to appreciate how frustrating it is for our Parliament, and how much it brings it into disgrace, if simple answers cannot be given to simple questions. Instead, we get nothing but the run-around. I know that every party in this Parliament, outside the Government, feels the same way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002243ed68daaafd4ccf974786ed8c9706c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243ed68daaafd4ccf974786ed8c9706c1\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The member raises a matter that can, and should, be dealt with in a more appropriate manner. If he has a specific complaint, he should write to the Minister concerned, or to you, Mr Speaker, in terms of the process of written questions through the House. This is simply not the right place or time to bring this up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc8b3f859f13487c92ba50b6ef1463b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc8b3f859f13487c92ba50b6ef1463b7\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I would contend that this is the proper place to bring this issue up, in accordance with Speaker\u2019s ruling 149/4(1). To add to Mr Hide\u2019s concerns, can I say that I know that three senior members of the National Party have raised in recent weeks issues around answers to written questions. Answers include such examples as: \u201CThe department does not hold this information in the form requested.\u201D, \u201CData matching would provide only a snapshot.\u201D, \u201CInformation is available from annual reports.\u201D, and \u201CCollating information would require a significant resource and management of data, which I am unwilling to make.\u201D To support Mr Hide, I say that the question is really that those are not isolated, one-off examples. What avenues, beyond a letter to you on specific examples, are available to parties on this side of the House to deal with this wider trend?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f982f54406d46238631fdc04da389c6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Whenever I have been approached by any member, in writing, I have taken the matter up immediately. I think members who have done so will recognise that. Mr Hide says that he will write to me. I will wait for his letter. What the library was told by a department is not a matter for me. I point out that there are over 20,000 written questions per year. I can remember that, when I first came to the House, there were about 500 or 600\u2014[Interruption] Order! Not while I am on my feet! Neither interjection was appropriate. Since the score was one all, I will ignore them. It is inevitable that not all questions will be satisfactorily answered, but I say to members that if they write to me, I guarantee to look at the matter immediately, because I believe that answers should be given, where appropriate, in the proper form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022573139c4222f4fb7be864e0877f42dd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022573139c4222f4fb7be864e0877f42dd5\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member who raised the most recent point of order quoted Speaker\u2019s ruling 149/4(1). I draw his attention to 149/4(2), which states that \u201Cthe member should discuss the matter initially with the Minister to try to correct the answer\u201D, and so on. Again, that does not appear to have been done. So this is not the time or place to raise this matter; this matter should be raised with the appropriate Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5bc2c920fde4d62b2cb173d1fa563ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5bc2c920fde4d62b2cb173d1fa563ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, in addition to your writing or talking to a Minister about this problem, has it ever occurred to you, as Speaker, that it would be appropriate to advise the Prime Minister of the problems that we are confronting here? Because, frankly, if a Minister cannot do his or her job, that Minister should be fired. One of the regulating mechanisms that operates in any decent democracy is that if a Minister is seen to be found wanting, and if that Minister is found wanting in this House, then usually that Minister goes\u2014excepting in our Parliament, in 2004, they stay here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295ce33e327c546fa89e9aacefa13ec23\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All I can say to the member is that when I feel the need to approach the leader of the Government on an issue, of course I will do so, because it may be appropriate to do so. It is not always the case, but I use my judgment in this matter. But I can assure members that whenever anyone has written to me, or come to see me, I have endeavoured to act on it immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5e07cc2344c47208c56bad5da3d94fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5e07cc2344c47208c56bad5da3d94fe\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like you to confirm one of your own rulings, which you might find easy to do. Speaker\u2019s ruling 148/2 states: \u201CAnyone giving inaccurate information in a written reply should clear up the error as soon as he or she realises it has occurred.\u201D I say to you that if the situation is that\u2014and I am sure it is, as that is how it has been given by my leader\u2014an answer has been given by the Minister of Health saying that information is publicly available, but, in fact, the Ministry of Health says that, yes, the information does exist but it is not publicly available, then the answer was an error. That would be a matter that can be cleared up only by the Minister of Health rising in this House and apologising for having given such an answer. It is my understanding that a series of answers to written questions have been given by Ministers saying that information is readily available in annual reports. Many of those annual reports have not even been presented. Those answers are an error, and those Ministers should all rise and apologise, under your own ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002228a88a9f93b94946a6131d86807c521a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228a88a9f93b94946a6131d86807c521a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I confirm my previous ruling. I read it just then, and it was one of those occasions when I thought I had made quite a good ruling\u2014and, certainly, it was very appropriate to the situation. It is for a Minister to judge whether he or she got the answer wrong, and then to take the appropriate steps. I am not the quizmaster; I am merely the referee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e51cdf1803654bdf80aa5d41227ec510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e51cdf1803654bdf80aa5d41227ec510\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to respond very briefly to the Hon Mark Burton\u2019s point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262b3c3280b6649b8a44c241d24b029c0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a point of order, or a response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d56afeb8e94c7ca60d5d79d9b15d56\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df24f16c932e40598f34e97586d8cd61\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930e511d62534052a70d34a5c69b07f2\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is this. I agree with the Hon Mark Burton that, in the normal course of events, one would write straight to the Minister. But the difficulty that we have is that we have had a whole, systemic series of answers that are half-answers. It is a pattern that exists. It is not one particular question that has not been answered; it is a pattern. One gets an answer that says to go to the web page, and one spends time looking at that; that is the pattern we are having, and it is a pattern of sort of duplicity and evasiveness in these answers that I am drawing to your attention\u2014not a particular question. You know yourself, Mr Speaker, that whenever I have had problems with particular questions I have gone to the Minister, and I have dealt with that in that way. What I am telling you now is that this is something quite different: it is systemic \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022034c658d953d4eb894d7940b1d482fad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022034c658d953d4eb894d7940b1d482fad\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member that I have been here 38 years, as he knows. I myself lodged many hundreds of questions as an Opposition MP. I doubt whether I was ever entirely satisfied with the answer. I will, however, judge any issue that is brought to me as Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002294ef09603b59437d8137bffbd35cedb4\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e84100b355c45cd81fd800e489a7389\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6e761adde9546e8a05916e06e54f32a\u0022\u003ECannabis\u2014Legal Status\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4cc35ad4d8946848f26986d985db8ae\u0022\u003E1. MARC ALEXANDER (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Can he confirm that it is the Government\u2019s policy not to change the legal status of cannabis; if so, is he confident that other policies implemented by his ministerial colleagues are consistent with this commitment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00228fab5c5f88c94ab3b5f0cdbaae1d252f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fab5c5f88c94ab3b5f0cdbaae1d252f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has no plans to change the current legal status of cannabis. Ministers act in accordance with this commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285b9d9a08d124920b8a0c8cb3905d356\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that teaching children how to use drugs safely is in direct conflict with the law for which the Minister has responsibility; if so, why has he condoned the distribution of a Ministry of Youth Development drug education handbook to schools this month, given that it takes this kind of harm minimisation approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bd3360b20774854b1d0ac8886e27398\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That booklet is not at all about teaching children how to use drugs safely. The thrust of the drug education programme is to stop children and young people from using drugs. But it is a bit like alcohol. We say that young people should not use alcohol, but we say particularly strongly that they should not use alcohol and drive a car. The same approach should be taken with cannabis\u2014that is, one should not use cannabis, but, most particularly, one should not use cannabis and drive a car. That is a sensible approach to take in this education programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c6af5fb4a14ba8a5117e4a7b41c53d\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: How does the National Drug Policy seek to deal with the problem of drug abuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ed48de8b74411486e204acb64858f7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The National Drug Policy adopts a three-pronged approach. The first is to try to control the supply of drugs by law enforcement; the second is to reduce the demand for drugs, which is done through drug education; and the third is to apply treatment for those suffering harm from drug and alcohol abuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e255b35276f42cb8a7dabd21ff11cbc\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of the spiralling use of methamphetamine and other drugs, why is the Government chopping the number of residential or inpatient treatment beds for drug addiction so that there are now about 110 fewer; and would it not be responsible to increase the number of beds rather than axe them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6208135df854c7a8d519a3676e0a9b0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague the Associate Minister of Health did just that, as Mr Worth might be aware. He has opened a new residential drug treatment facility for the central region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf7200305a1c4ff6aded00f02f0817be\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister indicate what steps, if any, he is taking to persuade other parties, with whom his Government has a cooperation arrangement, that legalising cannabis, freeing up access to drugs for young people, and generally softening up current drug laws is undesirable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6b85c3607f3418ca65d76ff19f37cca\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: It is not my role to write drug or any other policy for any other party in this House, but my advice to anyone is that we want to see less use of illicit drugs and less abuse of alcohol, and all parties should take that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc7b5925daa0431998869792f6d1b5bf\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister support the development of a consistent and integrated framework for regulating all drugs\u2014one that is based on expert evidence of the best way to reduce harm to society and individuals from drug use; and does he think we might be able to see such a common-sense approach implemented after the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215718926cd674abd927ce7f35b32b46b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is asking me to endorse his recently announced drug policy, I will decline to do that. I believe that all drug and alcohol policy should be evidence based.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e24e2b07a44e8a8073a9e7778a1cea\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister satisfied with the situation whereby one arm of the Government is attempting to uphold the prohibition on drug use but another promotes educational programmes that do not have drug avoidance as their primary goal, and in fact, seek to avoid promoting abstinence in case it\u2014and I quote from page 7 of the drug education handbook\u2014\u201Cstigmatises experimentation with drugs as deviant behaviour\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b9dd9aa0b4d40788f1b0912da16b9ff\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There is in fact consistency in the approach of all Government departments and all Ministers in this matter, and the advice we take on drug education is to follow international best-practice. That drug handbook does just that for schools. It tells schools the most effective way of communicating to students in a way that will get an improvement by way of drug reduction, and, hopefully, drug elimination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b307e13c1d4f948638ecf874023c48\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government received any other letters or reports on the question of abstinence; if so, from whom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c0d38d1150f4c5da9cf53784f5fcc9f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That is an invitation on a different matter, and I decline to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260aab4a2dcc0448eb65596c4df87d9de\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister finally read the Ministry of Youth Development drug education handbook, given that he stated in the House on 19 May that he had not at that point, and has he expressed any concerns to the Minister of Youth Affairs or the Associate Minister of Health that their Green-Party approach to drug education is inconsistent with the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223755d248ebda4920a05b6ecdc2677830\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: To the best of my knowledge the drug education handbook for schools on the best practice for eliminating and reducing drug use is not the policy that has been announced by the Greens, though there may be some parallels. If the member looks at the work that has been done, for example, by Roger Sowry as an Associate Minister of Health under National, he will see that Mr Sowry talked a lot about harm minimisation. World Heath Organization guidelines have been followed by successive Governments in this country. We look at following best-practice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286c0e018754f418ca89b2cd99e0034c0\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, spare us!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ddfe653ddb4d019c3ef6ca64f7c1c8\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I can table it if the member likes. Would he like me to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u002231779c5e0fed46b3ba93000166be5b75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231779c5e0fed46b3ba93000166be5b75\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Is the Minister aware of research undertaken by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research and the National Drug Research Institute in Australia showing that the prohibition of cannabis does work in limiting the amount consumed by heavy users, and does he agree that this evidence justifies retaining the current legal status of cannabis in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220636249e33284abea0dff0bf4fcb5e12\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I have not looked at the particular document the member has mentioned. He might like to pass it to me. But I am aware that a number of states in Australia are trying different methods of dealing with the drug problem. I think we should take an evidence-based approach and see which is the most effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1fddac20240498b9e53ffe43be36fb1\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen new research released this week that shows that one in ten 18 to 29-year-olds used P in the last year, that the drug is now very easy to obtain, has an established link with violent offending, and leads to serious psychological harm; if so, does he agree that the only message our young people should hear on this drug is: \u201CDo not use it.\u201D\u2014a message in line with the law, but seemingly not with the Government\u2019s drug education policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c674acb2904b06be53556ea4c9b2b1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That claim most certainly is not correct. This Government put, I think, $53.6 million into the Budget this year, predominantly aimed at reducing the supply of P. We have before this House at the moment the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3), which again cracks down and takes a tough approach. We have consistently increased police resources and Institute of Environmental Science and Research resources to try to stop the scourge that methamphetamine represents for this country. I do not think the Government can be faulted on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b52cdc8208e4a8b8c1c1b5ca47c55df\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that an approach of demonising cannabis, and opposing even moderate law reform, combined with unquestioning support for the alcohol industry, even to the extent of implacably opposing any restrictions on alcohol advertising\u2014a position followed by at least one party in this House\u2014is a common-sense approach to the problem of drug abuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435cc9f8ee3b4161bc9d692772dc1934\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Phil Goff can comment in relation to his portfolio, but not other people\u2019s policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022893a668302944a86a4df8dbf1d46b99c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: It is very important that drug education is factually correct and that it does not exaggerate, otherwise it is counterproductive. The efforts that we are making are to ensure that young people get evidence both about alcohol abuse\u2014that is, the most abused drug in New Zealand\u2014and marijuana use, because from respective studies we know that marijuana has very harmful effects on those who are mentally ill, those who are quite young, and those who use it frequently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f445c2e2f54abcb26155ef2ef49a22\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received reports on which parties in this Parliament support the view generally enunciated by Mr Alexander, and which parties support the rope-head view expressed by a certain member of this Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dbb60d41bda4357870e14fbc951f663\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, the Minister cannot answer that question unless it is linked with his portfolio. Perhaps the member could rephrase the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b553b8d5f44782a15f64b3c960a7d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I could say it this way; and I thought I did. Has the Minister received any reports of which parties support the view generally enunciated by Mr Alexander, and which parties are out there supporting the rope-heads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250034b7afb884ece92e949e1ae066283\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think it is appropriate to use derogatory terms about any member in this House. I do not intend to comment on that. Although I cannot speak for other parties, and the House is aware of that, I can say that the Labour Party takes a very strong approach to the elimination and reduction of drug abuse, and alcohol abuse. We are consistent across the board on that. As that member knows, alcohol abuse can be very harmful as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265da37b4232445c0a002347b2e117ca2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Are you going to let the Minister get away with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac58dcbdb264f71ab25d1b2ce6087fe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not. I ask the Minister to withdraw that last comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bce0eb23d8463f91497c8ccce83246\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: He should wash his mouth out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aef37c99f174e35842a62a8cdaefff6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am ruling now, no one else. The last comment the Minister made I thought could be taken in two ways, and I want him to withdraw any suggestion that there was a personal reflection on any member of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287b457cc38054604b587ec7edf14a7e8\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: If requested, I withdraw, but I can assure you there was no personal reflection in that answer. Every member in this House knows that alcohol abuse can be harmful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be68af0d0b7c419788728019c124c1e4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister will now stand and withdraw, and say nothing else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eff1a880852b42348b6d9c6b211c7b76\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In your initial comment you asked me whether I intended any derogatory comment in my answer, and as you asked me that question, I answered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a35c78387694435ea769077d89f8496b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I was probably wrong in asking it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b0f03b714cb4bdfbba906704d151761\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think in the spirit of the occasion you should ask Mr Winston Peters to withdraw, if his comment was intended to be derogatory. His question was clearly framed in such a manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc10602182024b838f276fb80496a5eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member was referring to any member of this House in a derogatory manner, I ask him to withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227355ff4e8ae345aab6b92d11ee8f6ad3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I asked the Minister as to which parties are out there supporting rope-heads, which clearly suggests that they are not in this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234a38c5d990240a3b9f0d5dd4d2c8c48\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is perfectly OK. If it is not in this Parliament, then that is it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3e3c43f95b54d2a954cc72780297ff9\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister willing to confirm that the real reason why the Labour Government is not proposing a decriminalisation of marijuana is that under his Government the police have stopped arresting people for mere possession, and if he is not willing to make such a statement to the House, is it a fact that if he did confirm there has been a de facto decriminalisation of marijuana, which is something we all know, then that would expose United Future\u2019s claim\u2014that it is supporting the Labour Government to stop the decriminalisation of marijuana\u2014as a complete sham?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022289e01c834c9403e8d8f272901f1569c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The reason why this party in Government is opposing the decriminalisation of marijuana is severalfold. Firstly, we have had health reports that show that marijuana can be dangerous in particular circumstances. That is well documented. Secondly, we have entered into an electoral commitment not to decriminalise marijuana. Thirdly, in relation to whether the police make arrests for possession, that is an operational matter. As that member told the House just a couple of weeks ago, Ministers cannot have anything to do with operational matters relating to the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221308d52cbbb046fcab448a53653d5f9d\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an example of a consistent, integrated, and evidence-based framework for the regulation of all drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227051330734264a31889d30a726ad59e8\u0022\u003EAoraki Polytechnic\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a55dbdbc1d44f7aa760d6803d3b2a0d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education): Was he advised earlier this year that \u201CAn issue arose this year at Aoraki Polytechnic in relation to the validation of student enrolments, the majority of which pertained to 5.1.\u201D, and was this issue related to Government funding for Aoraki Polytechnic\u2019s \u201Cjoint education programmes\u201D, where it offers courses through existing community groups?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022567e45da711343e1a120c2387dcdfcf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022567e45da711343e1a120c2387dcdfcf0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)):\u003C/span\u003E The answer to the first question is yes. The answer to the second question is that the issue was a general one about the collection of administrative information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc4403908c2e429aa5626ccb668f7cad\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister endorse Aoraki Polytechnic\u2019s practice of boosting enrolments by using community groups like the South Canterbury ADHD Support Group, the Alzheimer\u2019s Society Ashburton District, and the Timaru Breastfeeding Interest Group as a way to boost enrolments, and will he investigate whether mothers and carers who attend those groups are being enrolled in Aoraki Polytechnic as students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8025b4c84004c01b048bde3c2dc5492\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I would be concerned about any misuse of funds, as I always am. However, I would only investigate any particular complaint if it was made by somebody else other than the member, because I can never trust anything he says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1aabd6ef3bf4fa5b999632be28025fb\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Have other issues been raised about courses at Aoraki Polytechnic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e83b17e569c482d8fba51b922a4393c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I saw a claim yesterday that: \u201CPeople who attended a business lunch in Timaru earlier this year were told that they could stay and hear Mr Mark Tamaki speak if they filled out a form enrolling them at this course at Aoraki Polytechnic.\u201D However, it turns out that the lunch was organised by the Aoraki Development Trust, and that both the polytechnic and the trust agree that the polytechnic had nothing to do with the event. The polytechnic\u2019s chief executive is now seeking a retraction from Mr English. I have to agree with the Aoraki Development Trust general manager, who said: \u201CI would suggest Mr English should do his research, because at the end of the day it is his credibility that is now in question.\u201D Mr English should apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210dfac85433540599a282a83c2cbdf18\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Associate Minister stand by his associate ministerial colleague\u2019s comment at a recent New Zealand Association of Private Education Providers function to the effect that if we want to find real rorts in the tertiary system, we need to look no further than the polytechnic sector, or does he believe that John Tamihere does not know what he is talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3192970be04fa596754424f061fa79\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, I was not at the speech, but I have found John Tamihere to be an insightful person. I would need to check that out with him though, to know exactly what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268fe6114d7c44c7e93c975daa19a1a03\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the programme for the New Zealand Council of Homeopaths conference to be held in New Plymouth this year, which lists Aoraki Polytechnic as the platinum sponsor, has he seen the list of community groups that provide their courses as including the New Zealand Council of Homeopaths national conference, and will he investigate whether people who enrol to attend that conference are in fact enrolling at Aoraki Polytechnic, as occurred last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237f0aad463394314a2a36d1a5bb1ad89\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, I will investigate any concern that is raised about the irregular use of public funding. However, I will always have to separately verify any claims from that member, because he systematically gets it wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b64d655b393c4385a5a1ff079412afc0\u0022\u003EHon Jim Sutton\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that Aoraki Polytechnic is proactive in its liaison and working with community and commercial groups in the South Canterbury area that it serves, and that it has the full confidence of that community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227322d99ca3c44de48ba799c66795bd96\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member, of course, is a representative of that community, and is expressing his confidence by asking that question. But I can confirm that Aoraki Polytechnic does have clear evidence that its community supports it fully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a5ece62342449299710fe7555ccf09\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Are his comments that Mr Tamihere was both insightful and expert in these matters\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b193f15ea7d045eeaa1754fd167430b1\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: I just said \u201Cinsightful\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206401fbf06f14a4fb512d38d697fbdd5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, insightful in these matters\u2014because when John Tamihere was running the Waipareira Trust the application in respect of trainees did not match the application for grants; hence the huge discrepancy at the end of the year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022983b408fcbc8419c82c4b98d06db38d6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, of course, I am not responsible for what happened with regard to members before they entered Parliament. I am not responsible for what the member himself did before he entered Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dce871b53fb4fd9af0d2b56f761803a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is on top of this issue, why has he been unable to answer 20 parliamentary questions that I have submitted since March, asking for a list of Aoraki Polytechnic\u2019s community education courses, enrolments, and public funding payments for the 2003 year, which finished 9 months ago, and why cannot a $45 million Tertiary Education Commission produce that information for one polytech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a7de75ced6d4f868a897fc9f90e54c3\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s questions will always be answered, but as he knows, because he asked this particular question, the issue of validation of course enrolments across the entire polytechnic was at question. It has taken an effort to go back over those enrolments, which have now been validated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a30e7bcd8694d2b92b9758309a2b819\u0022\u003EBenefit Reforms\u2014Domestic Purposes and Widows Benefits\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227f0493ae8224526a557650a227ea0f1\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports has he received on outcomes from the 2002 domestic purposes and widows benefit reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00220a9fe4f574244eb2b9246e5bb9653804\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a9fe4f574244eb2b9246e5bb9653804\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Since enhanced case management and the annual development of employment plans were introduced in 2002, we have seen the following: more domestic purposes beneficiaries and widows beneficiaries are exiting the benefit each month; domestic purposes beneficiaries and widows beneficiaries who do exit are less likely to return; more domestic purposes women-alone and widows beneficiaries are engaged in part-time work; the proportion of domestic purposes benefit recipients leaving the benefit because they have secured work has increased; and the number of people on the domestic purposes benefit and widows benefit has declined, despite New Zealand having higher numbers of women of childbearing age. All of these findings say that these reforms have been valuable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4855083481f48d2bcb37bf48b45cf8b\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he received on the 2002 domestic purposes, widows, and benefit reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2755485a4ff4c15adc490339ea454de\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard claims that the changes would increase the number of people on the domestic purposes benefit to 120,000. I heard claims that thousands more would go on to the benefit each year. I heard claims that fewer would leave the benefit. I heard claims that fewer would get a job. Every one of those claims came from National and ACT members of Parliament, and they have been proven utterly wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cffaa3310594371a2dafdf8d609e026\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister read the recent reports on the outcomes of the Wisconsin welfare reforms, which show that only 25 percent of participants are in a genuine job and that there is not the slightest improvement in poverty rates over the last 10 years; if so, can he give that information to the National and ACT parties, which continue to promote aspects of the Wisconsin programme, despite it being outdated and ineffective?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244163631e2b04d1a891fe4b445eee34d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have read that research, and, yes, I can make it available to members of the ACT and National parties. However, they might like simply to purchase a copy of this week\u2019s Listener where they will see that these programmes are working, whereas the Wisconsin ones do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207772631275a4edd9987ca949e538f7d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00220cd4b895f66a4da485ae3bfd4d4bf172\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cd4b895f66a4da485ae3bfd4d4bf172\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the programme for the New Zealand Council of Homeopaths national conference 2004, which shows Aoraki Polytechnic as a platinum sponsor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab955f5cd74143e68ba26333ad6cd5ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab955f5cd74143e68ba26333ad6cd5ca\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the list of joint education programmes provided by Aoraki Polytechnic, including the breastfeeding interest group and Alzheimer\u2019s New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002271d2b094d0984992a86cbd33092c4acc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271d2b094d0984992a86cbd33092c4acc\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a submission from the Tertiary Education Commission to the Minister pointing out enrolment irregularities at Aoraki Polytechnic, which are still unresolved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002236748b8bb75d48aa87e2dc19d756f25e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236748b8bb75d48aa87e2dc19d756f25e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table 20 written parliamentary questions asking for information from 2003 about these courses, which have not yet been provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b63fb1f6e24197aae924a84f1e9161\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those questions. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a035b1e5cbd14c7396d1c1746210f783\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a035b1e5cbd14c7396d1c1746210f783\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a report from Fast News: \u201CTech boss fuming over allegations by Mr English\u201D, and demanding an apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ae48bfe3aa64edbb70b6c93ad263c45\u0022\u003ESurgery\u2014Transfers to General Practitioners\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c8557e88f60486dabc654d5bab0b732\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Following her answer to written question No. 12986 (2004) in relation to elective surgery, how many people in the booking system were transferred to the category of GP Care in the year ended June 2004?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022b26b1a6cb44449728139ed57950df9b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b26b1a6cb44449728139ed57950df9b9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As I advised the member in my written answer to question No. 12986 (2004), the information can be obtained publicly through the national booking reporting system administered by the New Zealand Health Information Service. According to the New Zealand Health Information Service, 5,103 patients were referred to their general practitioners in the year ended June 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288cdd9406c33408f99da08bd6ab01f2e\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Given that there were 62,581 persons on all residual lists in June 1999, given that the Minister has already admitted that there were well over 56,000 patients in the Booked / Given Certainty, and Active Review categories alone in June 2004, and given that she has now admitted that another 5,103 exited to the final category, GP Care, when will she admit that the equivalent waiting lists have gone up under her stewardship\u2014yes or no, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228982ac3aebea4f179efc4894333d5742\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member cannot add up. Even if one were to add all those figures together, the total comes to something like 61,000. She has the latest figure\u2014June 1999\u2014for how many were on the waiting list, but she chose to use something else. I gave her December figures; she chose to use June figures, which show something like 72,000. When one adds them up one finds there are still fewer. However, in the past we did not count those patients who went back to their general practitioners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff6e04334dc4c1cad5c1e1ed44d340f\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Did the waiting lists of the 1990s\u2014which sat at 72,318 in December 1999, when we became the Government\u2014include people who were returned to their general practitioners; if so, was this information publicly available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202fb3c323e6041168fe5f1ed176e5940\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, it did not include those people, and the public had no idea whatsoever as to how many people were sent back to their general practitioners. This information has been collected since 2001 only, under this Government, and we are determined to make the true figures available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ffa92340b3488da26c56b3fc2cb23a\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement: \u201CThe buck stops with me.\u201D; if so, what responsibility does she take for the 346 patients under the Counties Manukau District Health Board who were removed from the waiting list for orthopaedic surgery and returned to their general practitioners in the 2003-04 financial year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211310cdd04d4749b74781373ee9adf6\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The buck certainly stops with me; $10 billion worth of bucks have stopped with this Minister. Since I have been Minister, $10 billion has gone into the health sector, up from $6 billion under a National Government. I tell that member that it is this Government that has undertaken to double the number of hip and knee replacement operations in New Zealand. Under a National Government, we were doing 1.2 operations per 1,000 head of population. We will soon be doing 2.4\u2014$70 million worth of expenditure. That is what we have done about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217d233c2acf544a2bb49774bb75a523b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the 1999-2000 publicly funded operations figure is 160,000 and the 2002-03 figure is 157,000, which is down 1.2 percent, why should we believe any of the flimflam we have just heard from the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239f8c121bce44a5a86c738b81ea3dd08\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to table in the House the latest figures for operations in New Zealand, which show an increase over 2002-03. I will table those when the question finishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262bdf905dce945a78dc9caf3541b9472\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile her answers to my written questions, the first of which told me that the information is publicly available, when it clearly is not, and the second of which, in response to a question about what statistics are kept, stated that there is no national data collection; when will she stop evading my questions and tell New Zealanders the real story about waiting lists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1fa885e9125408daacce982f16530a6\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: This Government tells the real story about waiting lists every day of the week. I cannot be held responsible for a member who not only cannot read figures but also constantly makes mistakes. The information is publicly available, but I cannot\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224673de698d544211a5d8e6ccd74bcadb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When the member asks a question, she cannot shout out the whole time the answer is being given. The member should at least allow the Minister to answer; the member can then come in at that point. I do not want to stop interjections altogether, but the member was not being reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995e666d6ba94472bfdd5e31eeb62f49\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The next point I would like to make is that this Minister and the Ministry of Health are not responsible for being the ACT research unit, when the information is publicly available. ACT members want the Ministry of Health\u2014they want to use the bureaucracy\u2014to hunt out information they can get publicly. I say to them that they should use Peter McCardle, because he is there to do that. He picks up two salaries\u2014one from the district health board, and one from ACT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab502ea47b0c4cbfab458aa900912727\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Government was hoping that there would be an intelligent supplementary question on this issue. I indicate to the House that if Dr Hutchison wanted leave to ask a supplementary question, we would not oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d143b25837fe4e3e9660ca0db8a3dcb6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is being too cute for his own comfort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280475c5a4eb04c48b4fda58eaeb42ef0\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a letter from the Counties Manukau District Health Board stating the numbers of people removed from the surgery waiting list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d54d5d7337545699fa00343b16480a9\u0022\u003E Heather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a copy of web pages from the New Zealand Health Information Service website, which the Minister referred me to and which, eventually, took me back to the elective services part of the Ministry of Health website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224621fbe6ccbb4af69f5fac5cba9d0ba3\u0022\u003EPrimary Health Organisations\u2014Enrolments of Over 65s\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b57c506caee46849bce9c75ebba6812\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Tainui)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has she received any recent reports regarding enrolments in primary health organisations for the over-65-year-old age group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1103c586cea44a4a274c83465310fdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1103c586cea44a4a274c83465310fdd\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The latest report on enrolment shows that over 90 percent of all New Zealanders who are over 65 years of age are enrolled in primary health organisations. In other words, 441,408 people over 65 are receiving additional subsidies to reduce the cost of primary health care. This is an amazing achievement in such a short time, and it demonstrates that older New Zealanders have grabbed this opportunity to safeguard their health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022644d3d849ba04339810c1e4ac8be8bd2\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister clarify in what areas some of the highest enrolments of over-65-year-olds are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d5bc79a6d3c48559539471e484ea493\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: As this Government said when it introduced the policy, primary health organisation funding would initially target those areas with the greatest need, before rolling the programme out to all New Zealanders. I am happy to report that in areas such as Counties Manukau, Tair\u0101whiti, Northland, and South Canterbury, over 96 percent of the over-65-year-olds are enrolled in primary health organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a18ef8030de460aa4820033ab28910b\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many over-65-year-olds could have had cataract surgery with the $2 million being spent by her Government on advertising and singing the praises of primary health organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe7074ed81d846e7b1ffc99f1dbf6880\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No doubt, one could spend some of that money on cataracts. However, I think it is just as important, if not more important, that people can afford to go to the doctor\u2014something that has happened under this Government\u2014and I wonder why so many older New Zealanders want to be enrolled in primary health organisations. The answer is that it is cheaper to go, and they want to go to their doctors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c445e72d6240b2b430e14a996000b9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister was asked how many cataract operations could have been financed with that $2 million propaganda exercise she engaged in. She made no attempt to answer that question. She surmised that some of it could have been spent that way. If she does not know the answer, she should say so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0044b5ea8a6449ba66414c57b115848\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard the Minister say that it is true that there could be some cataract operations. I heard the Minister say that. That was addressing that part of the question. She did not give a specific figure; that is true. But she did say that at the very start of the answer she gave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca1d5b7225a749ca9dfd66a1d84b0f11\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give details of how primary health organisations are contributing toward better health for all New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b79543a6add04aaebff476d57b837bba\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There are hundreds of examples, but perhaps I could use\u2014[Interruption] Oh, Mr Peters said he would be happy to have one. Well, let us go to the primary health organisation in west Auckland, where there are 110 doctors for a population of 150,000, and it is now carrying out all sorts of procedures. But one procedure the member might be interested in is that it is increasing its immunisation rate to a level of 97 percent\u2014a level it has not seen before. It happened under a primary health organisation, according to the primary health organisation itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3cab27b464446859025d040e73308d1\u0022\u003EHealth\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1542820a6f146839cf60922cd5d700e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is she satisfied that health funding is being spent effectively; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022a29d4f170576442486d212208f77cea1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a29d4f170576442486d212208f77cea1\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E For the most part, yes, because health outcomes are improving. At least half of New Zealanders are now paying less for their doctors\u2019 visits, and most now pick up their prescriptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022496a54bd48cb41758db5fc3b812925f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why the 21 district health boards now have incorporated into each of their statements of intent a commitment to acknowledging the treaty principles\u2014all different, and costing millions to the taxpayer\u2014and what are those principles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb19991439654212b6124217b391377f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The principles of the treaty, as required to be implemented within the health sector, are outlined in the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Act, and they relate to the relationships the district health boards are required to form with the M\u0101ori community. They are based on relationships that were formed under the previous Government, when it set up things called M\u0101ori provider organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238796e2bb2ef4974bf520da3e10fbba3\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228449c33db4434d18bad3a7e5c3a44922\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Those members do not like this one. They were built on the relationships that were formed under the previous Government called M\u0101ori provider organisations, and those relationships are about what principles they are required to implement under the Act for health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989337066ffe4be0a52f298acefa990d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for the Minister to be given an extension of time, so that she can outline what those principles that I asked her about are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a98be2e039f4e6a9456e0aba2c9cd5c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is not. If the Minister wants to add to\u2014[Interruption] There is objection. [Interruption] This is the members\u2019 own private day, so they are in their own time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a60be1f5a29447efa9cfc4ed233ce48d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I sought leave for the Minister to be given an extension of time so that she could enunciate with clarity for the whole country and for this House what the Treaty of Waitangi principles that the 21 district health boards are following are, and leave was granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254f16270f22f40cca5139d8f3ceee8ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I made a mistake. Leave can be sought by a person only on his or her own behalf. One cannot seek it on behalf of anybody else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223fbad97c1ae4a16a9dee197d8b547cd\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of effective health funding and use of the health dollar, has the Minister received the final number for operations in the last financial year, and how does that compare with the year preceding that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248100988ccfc483b862079e0c9fbcfad\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question. I happen to have the figures here, which I am happy to share with Judith Collins, because she obviously does not know them. The actual figures for 2002-03 show that 267,374 operations were undertaken. In 2003-04 there were 272,881 operations, an increase of 5,501 over the previous year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed7be97d715428a82e55d57de08c900\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain how inserting the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi into legislation\u2014something she cannot explain\u2014and policy has created better health outcomes for M\u0101ori, when health spending has increased under her by 29 percent in the last 4 years, yet the number of operations has fallen by 1.2 percent in the same period; and is it not a fact that much of that extra funding is being wasted on meaningless activities, the identification of which she cannot give us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db4abceefb18484180fce5b7933ea389\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member did not listen to my original answer. I said the treaty section within the Act\u2014and I direct him to the treaty section within the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Act\u2014relates to the relationships that district health boards are to form with M\u0101ori. It is around partnership and participation, in particular. The member is also wrong in that the number of operations has not fallen. I have just given the latest figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c9872bdfb714c1da890a407a131084c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why, if there is clarity in what the Minister says the district health boards should be following, does each different health board have a different explanation for the treaty principles; and second, given that the M\u0101ori purchasing organisations do not cover anywhere south of the Waikato, does the Treaty of Waitangi now not apply to the rest of the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294ca097737c943048d4997dbacc02330\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question. The formation of relationships with M\u0101ori differ around New Zealand. For example, the member is correct that in the north, around the Auckland area, and down into Waikato, the formation of M\u0101ori purchasing organisations under the previous Government was the way to form a relationship. In other parts of New Zealand the development of M\u0101ori development organisations became the forum and the way to form relationships. So they are different in different parts of New Zealand, based on the way the iwi and local people want to have relationships with those organisations. I think they existed when the member was in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c95f50535a45a5b38d5e634bf1dc2a\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister satisfied that health dollars are not being compromised by a lack of security in hospital pharmacies, particularly in relation to ephedrine; if so, what does she know of reports that there has been at least one recent incident of large-scale theft from such a hospital pharmacy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0cb9f7f5370477ba79921de86ae8b1f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: What I know is that within hospitals, staff take great care to ensure that the drugs under their control are safe. I have heard of few, if any, problems in terms of hospital drugs within a hospital setting. That is not to say that, at some point, some person who can get access would not take advantage of that. One cannot protect totally, but I have confidence in the health professionals who are responsible for ensuring there is restricted access to such drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dafe27d0a1642aaa2bb8d9e93447b33\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could the Minister just clarify that she has not heard any reports of large-scale thefts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f151a4b47a147b6a765ae4b74ec7ff0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the Minister addressed the question perfectly satisfactorily. [Interruption] She did. Please do not interrupt me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9d6470b845340be888a3774b679966e\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister commit to urgent action to address the funding crisis faced by after-hours clinics around the country, or is she content to send those patients to already overloaded emergency departments that struggle to meet their triage times?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383101d1804448babae25d4f89a5db8e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can give that assurance to the member. A lot of work is being done by the Ministry of Health, the Independent Practitioners Association Council, and the primary health organisations to ensure after-hours coverage. I suppose that one of the successes of the primary health organisations is that patients are now going to their general practitioners during working hours because it is now affordable, and fewer are going for after-hours service when it is much more expensive. So that means the funding that clinics used to get by charging more to patients seen after hours is not there, but urgent work is being done on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022615a0d2b6bfd4f739b9d72947f7b883e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister had any representations from the ACT party as to the adjustment of the health spend; if so, would she like to elaborate on those?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277ee4c2d13e24748bb4b979c10808b93\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Like the Minister of Justice, I think I will decline to elaborate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7e7b34662c74129b739a98db07e1b53\u0022\u003ESocial Entrepreneur Fund\u2014Non-M\u0101ori Organisations and Individuals\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202972b7ab4954f2ebec72702058021ea\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: How many non-M\u0101ori organisations and individuals have come under review in connection with activities funded from the Social Entrepreneur Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d40034a2c01a4b998a6e8bd40e422d19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d40034a2c01a4b998a6e8bd40e422d19\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Data on the ethnicity of the Social Entrepreneur Fund recipients was never recorded as the programme was not targeted to focus on particular ethnic groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200d7cfceca8347d09e4bb9626a116552\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Were the problems with accountability and reconciliation created by a policy that allowed senior managers and the Minister to be one side of the responsibility to ensure that it worked; and why, then, did the social entrepreneur scheme fail, given the highly successful Community Employment Group programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208689347509d4afe980e95d16120786e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: My answer to the first question is no. As I said yesterday, the changes in the Community Employment Group have come about because of change in the employment-unemployment environment, which did lead to some struggling around programmes within that particular organisation. But it is now off, I think, in a very good direction\u2014partly going to the Ministry of Social Development, partly staying in the Department of Labour, and partly moving to Te Puni K\u014Dkiri. I imagine that the member will find, as she moves around the country, that there has been a lot of support for these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230bc870440ff48e3a5ef6d617e6604a4\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Will the reallocated Social Entrepreneur Fund still be available to communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d846dc1f5e40138860ad86542888f5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is yes. The funding has been transferred to the Ministry of Social Development and will be made available to both M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori communities. More details will be announced later this month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec2f007ccf3a4281a9350b3da28f740b\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister described the social entrepreneur scheme as a \u201Cground-breaking initiative to support community champions, movers and shakers, and stunning examples of human innovation\u201D, did he agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s comments that some aspects of his scheme were \u201Cloopy\u201D and \u201Csilliness\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1de12de05c54876a2b63ed9729c52d0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As I noted yesterday, the idea of a social entrepreneur is widely used in jurisdictions all around the world. The US President, for example, recently pointed to his social entrepreneur scheme. I think the first round of grants contained a lot of quite stunning examples. I have listed one, which was the grant to Mr Geoff Chapple, who has been creating the walking path from one end of the country to the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205dfc37d37644301b11680b5820d0505\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question asked whether the Minister agreed with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement. That was not addressed in that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a725db407e4369aebadb1e7b153add\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first part of the question was addressed. If the member\u2019s question has two parts, the Minister can choose which part to answer. But if the Minister wants to add more, he can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022498cd9f6c0ee4532b69067fa4c974921\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; I thought that all members in the House took it for granted that we always agree with the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79ead23eea8425fb58d1c5c2762d6a7\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have re-read my question and there were not two parts to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298beeb1a8d4c4762b28c7a416e059305\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister took the opportunity to answer the question. If I was in error, I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228654489658994308b3d0b07e6680a351\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Precisely how does the Minister define a non-M\u0101ori organisation or community, and can he confirm that the reason that so many M\u0101ori organisations have come under review is that under his Government\u2019s race-based funding policy more M\u0101ori organisations receive funding in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221134787a873486f9473ea5d725c3c70\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The question is completely irrelevant. As I pointed out in the beginning, the Social Entrepreneur Fund recipients have not had their ethnicity recorded, because ethnicity was not part of the funding model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e246bba48b448e0a961219b8c98387a\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by the statements he made at the 2001 social entrepreneur conference that the success of the social entrepreneur scheme was about promoting the concept, particularly by wearing a kea lapel pin\u2014the kea being the symbol of the social entrepreneur scheme\u2014and does he recall saying: \u201CI am going to wear this lapel pin as often as I can in the hope that people will say \u2018What\u2019s the story with the bird, Steve?\u2019, and I am going to tell them.\u201D; if so, what does he say now that the social entrepreneur scheme is as dead as a dodo?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223013b943bbac46ce8d53869854a452ce\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for repeating my speech. Could she repeat more of them? I quite like to hear the early ones come back again. I can tell the member that the kea badge is proudly displayed on my fridge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb3305bd933b40be93d159c358873804\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Social Entrepreneur Fund become driven by this Minister, rather than responding to the needs in the community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022312c1de3735849d39c70ad9fc153db76\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: This policy was driven, of course, and implemented by the members of the Community Employment Group\u2014that is how policies get implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224620963abb744b339b071fffe7244ce0\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The primary question that Tariana Turia asked would have had to go to the Clerk to be approved. The question, interestingly, asked: \u201CHow many non-M\u0101ori organisations\u201D. The Minister said that was irrelevant, because ethnicity is not an issue for those organisations. When I think about it, I do not know whether\u2014aside from the National Front\u2014there are any non-M\u0101ori organisations in New Zealand. I do not think there are. The Clerk, clearly, must be thinking that there are non-M\u0101ori organisations, to have approved such a question. I do not think the Minister agrees\u2014[Interruption] If people want to interrupt\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66d95cf237e4a11a9459b27973c391e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member come to his point of order. I have not heard what it is yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1784b885bf54b808a6bf61001457fbe\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Clerk in this Parliament believe that, aside from the National Front, there is such a thing as non-M\u0101ori organisations in New Zealand\u2014yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6c79d0603e944debaf66f8fefb9e541\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a question that can be asked. The facts can be enunciated. There was nothing wrong with the question as lodged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f24cebce014e446293022d71aab32808\u0022\u003EFinance, Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022873a962765654ef7980af5b5d5d60919\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Finance; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffa4ff043e6a4c9fbd6ade0d77b2cb90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffa4ff043e6a4c9fbd6ade0d77b2cb90\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae8516957fd84cd9ae8f939294d3d07c\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it is appropriate for the Minister of Finance once again to pre-empt the Governor of the Reserve Bank by stating to Dow Jones analysts in New York this week: \u201CThe bank has indicated with near certainty one more move, and then one or two more after that.\u201D, when neither the Reserve Bank nor the markets, in fact, stated that; and does she agree with the Minister of Finance that interest rates may go up three more times this year, taking floating mortgage rates to over 9 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c388daaa8840589a371837093b8e96\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen anything in the Minister\u2019s comments that suggest he was pre-empting anyone. I myself do not intend to voice a view about the future of the official cash rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4e481ae6e274ca9b14b4668e17cb624\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting her glowing comments that she has such confidence in her Minister of Finance, can she advise the House whether he has reconsidered his support for imposing further increases in fuel prices, as proposed in the Customs and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill, in the light that fuel prices have risen dramatically since the bill\u2019s inception, and are now having an adverse effect on New Zealand\u2019s economic and social well-being; if he has not reconsidered that support, does she believe that is the action of a competent Minister who is on top of his job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e528c0d34b1488ab19d9c1022095e1c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not aware that he has reconsidered his support, and I can only say that the impacts cannot be too adverse when we have the lowest unemployment rate in more than 17 years, and had 4.4 percent growth in the year ended June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022729ad117cdfc42aeb947c0a99e60306e\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does she regard it as fair that, even after her Minister of Finance has publicly acknowledged that he has $520 million in cash \u201Cleft\u201D, he still refuses to adjust the tax brackets to take into account the effects of inflation; and when will hard-working New Zealanders receive some long-overdue tax relief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3aa14bc27a746188b5fbd6a92d12b19\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, starting on 1 April next year there will be extensive, targeted tax cuts for hard-working Kiwi families with children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e7adf023194cc69db0dfe9195b9366\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Prime Minister\u2019s confidence in her Minister of Finance, so much so that she is happy to swan off from Parliament to the Progressive Governance Summit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261526c5d5958418887b69e59cf916a2d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is out of order. Would the member come to the question, and not add that irrelevant extra to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212b8408304d84e20819443fc02ed9f11\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It is not out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea814c01da694f398a6a8810aa575420\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is out of order. I know what can be asked and what cannot be asked. A supplementary question has to relate to the primary question, and it does not need to contain any extraneous matter such as that. Please ask the supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dd19966cee7463ea80367509011b409\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In light of her confidence in the Minister extending to her going overseas when Parliament is sitting and leaving Parliament in the control of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220228922741434cb1b55beda1917034c5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want the member to ask the Prime Minister a question. He can ask a supplementary question, but he has not yet asked one to my satisfaction. He gets one more chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b480020f38437ea960f8e7fb52316e\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In light of her confidence in her deputy, the Minister of Finance, would she consider staying over in Hungary and making the de facto Prime Minister of New Zealand the actual Prime Minister of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784f57d9c70344498a1a96026df01556\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, no more so than I would consider a holiday with Alan Gibbs in Spain such as that member just had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b36783aff6cc4f4d88977eaeeec65e25\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not think she was invited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022667a6bd5d55b42eb9b201b0541f2ee1b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is about the seventh time today that the member has raised a point of order that is not one. Could I recommend a course in reading Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288559a25da1e4aaab13de4fcd2fb5130\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it is appropriate for the Minister of Finance to go offshore and state that one of the major risks to the New Zealand economy is the interest rate management techniques of the independent Governor of the Reserve Bank; and can she confirm that she has confidence in the Governor of the Reserve Bank even if her Minister of Finance does not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e026f26a8c294cccb379e8d7a5135c52\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: My reading of the interview given with Dow Jones was that the Minister of Finance did not state that was a major risk. He said there is a danger that we will get someone who overshoots with monetary policy correction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a99f2778624bf683a94332f4819308\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can she have confidence in the Minister of Finance when we have a worsening balance of payments crisis, when we have one-seventh of the per capita exports of, say, Singapore or Ireland, when our per capita income now has us ranked 37th in the world and falling, when we have the highest interest rates in the Western World, and when we now have a huge leap in the number of sickness beneficiaries; how can she have confidence in the Minister of Finance when we have those sorts of comparative figures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241aaf0ce6ebb48d0a7ca26fb1ad995d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, I understand that the numbers of working-age beneficiaries are down 16 percent under this Government. Secondly, I understand that our growth rates continue to be at the top of the OECD. Thirdly, I understand that our unemployment rate is not only the lowest in more than 17 years but the second-lowest in the OECD. Fourthly, I understand that our AA\u002B credit rating was very recently confirmed, and, further, I understand that the Standard and Poor\u2019s agency said it was unlikely to change downwards any time soon, because of, in particular, the very prudent way in which the Government\u2019s finances are managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c08c90fcaa4821848ed82461809af6\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is she as perplexed as the people of New Zealand are by the regular comments from the Minister of Finance that the $7 billion operating surplus is only an accounting illusion, when, miraculously, this week in New York he claimed to actually have, to quote him, a spending war chest of banked surpluses to be wheeled out in election year; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250d7d3a01c9a4ec2bd9c3748dbbe62d1\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That would be a distortion of what the Minister said, too. He referred to automatic fiscal stabilisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b81cd2ef425a47619b20267eb2598a21\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an article from the New Zealand Herald in which Dr Cullen says he has $520 million of cash stashed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff74869f0df34e37a4818c43692db8fe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that article. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280804a8954824cf798a021e3cd233c92\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two documents. The first is a Dow Jones publication in which the Minister of Finance outlines the risks to the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220573895e434d4e80b59801d474cbf0fa\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: The second is the daily commentary by Deutsche Bank, which clearly points out that the Minister of Finance is nothing but confused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ddf1d695d7429aac8e465946e71761\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ef50d05fd66425c9052ad46cc35f6f0\u0022\u003EDioxin\u2014Exposure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284323b86bd8a4ecdae4bf2e1f88f0af3\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Is he aware of any other groups of New Zealanders suffering health effects from dioxin exposure similar to the exposure that the Health Committee recognises was experienced by Vietnam veterans; if so, what action is he taking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00229c9a883796ff4d3d976a70b83f8e3206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c9a883796ff4d3d976a70b83f8e3206\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am not aware of any groups of New Zealanders suffering health effects from dioxin exposure similar to the exposure that the Health Committee recognises was experienced by Vietnam veterans. New Zealand research is presently under way to investigate any health effects from different types of exposure in industrial workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ced571fcca453d87052721f6db3f28\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that people who lived near to the Dow factory in New Plymouth in the late 1960s and early 1970s were exposed to a similarly toxic environment to that which the Vietnam veterans were exposed to, and therefore deserve the same free medical treatment and services for dioxin-related illnesses as Vietnam veterans receive; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022078afc200158475ab20b3d16b5437d3d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Indications from an interim result from a study currently being conducted around Paritutu are that people may have been exposed to higher levels of dioxin emissions from the plant and that half those people have higher than usual levels of dioxin in their blood, but until we have the conclusion of that study we cannot reach any definite and definitive results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292d4d93613904059b654fbb4b94b3191\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing generally about dioxins and other organochlorines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aded4087e014bfd8817cfa4e95a5310\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: This Government recently ratified the Stockholm convention, which commits us to reducing and eliminating organochlorines. We have agreed to fund new research into the heath of former timber workers who were exposed to pentachlorophenol, and the Institute of Environmental Science and Research is completing its study into dioxin exposure at Paritutu. Those are just some examples of this Government\u2019s comprehensive and active approach to reducing both the exposure to and the potential health effects from dioxins and other organochlorines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe90e52ef4d6448fbbe632457e3b9b63\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the ill health and the trauma that many of our soldiers and their families go through as a result of their service in Vietnam and having been subjected to Agent Orange, and if he is aware of that will he start with an apology, resume a special committee set up to address their plight, and end with meaningful compensation; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223247badb99d64f97a6fdd8644ca8ca48\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I and this Government are very aware of the claims made over 30 years around that issue. The report released today clearly identifies and accepts that New Zealand veterans were exposed in Vietnam to pentachlorophenol and to Agent Orange. The health effects from that have yet to be fully clarified. This Government will be making every effort to respond comprehensively and in a caring way to this report as tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220304571b2741443f936f8be744bc4c8d\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Professor Al Rowland, who is carrying out a genetic study of nuclear test veterans, that there is a wealth of evidence that proves genetic damage from dioxins, and will he therefore support a genetic study of Vietnam veterans and residents who lived near Paritutu at the peak of exposure, to see whether they or their offspring have suffered any long-term damage as a result of their exposure to dioxin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daa85824ccfc48e88fd48f0f52ac7238\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: While not necessarily accepting the claims of that person, this Government will look very carefully at all the issues raised in this report. The issue of Paritutu is separate from that of the Vietnam veterans. This Government has shown consistently since coming into power in 1999 that there are issues around organochlorines in this country, and we have made every effort to work through those very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab71fed7ec84a76b050bb06ef29bd65\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does he acknowledge that sawmill workers at Whakat\u0101ne who worked daily with pentachlorophenol containing dioxin suffer high rates of cancer, skin diseases, blood disorders, depression, and early deaths, and that their wives have had twice the national rate of miscarriages, and that their children have higher than usual rates of hearing, sight, and birth defects and learning problems, and does he accept that that is an occupational illness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6f45fc2a9cc4529b155c8c69ddac468\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept the assertions made by the member. However, the Government is aware of the concerns raised over many years by those workers at Whakat\u0101ne. That is why I, as Minister, went to Whakat\u0101ne and met with them, and that is why we have funded research paid for by the Occupational Safety and Health Service to examine the potential health effects of exposure to pentachlorophenol. We have directed the Bay of Plenty District Health Board to work with the former workers, and, like every New Zealander, anyone who has health problems has access to the public health system and to the health care that he or she needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff9ceaaf0284dcf9dd7781ee6b52eae\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister doing to follow up his promise to the Whakat\u0101ne sawmill workers reported in April to support a free mobile clinic to help sawmill workers and their families with illnesses that could be related to dioxin exposure, and can he guarantee that they will not have to wait as long as the Vietnam veterans for recognition and help, given that their exposure predates even Vietnam?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f378d2041ae742198898cbe7bc5873ab\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We are working actively on that issue. There was some debate with those people about the effectiveness of a mobile clinic. The Ministry of Health is working as we speak to implement a mobile health clinic for those people, so that they have access to health care and checks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f22fb009f3064c58ab5fb9f4c79462c1\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government acknowledge any responsibility for the fact that those workers were required to immerse their hands frequently in pentachlorophenol, to breathe the fumes, and to wear contaminated clothing that was taken home and washed with the family laundry, were not advised to wear protective clothing, and were repeatedly told that pentachlorophenol was safe by the Government\u2019s Forest Service, which promoted the use of pentachlorophenol by the industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c180c4156b34e5da3e9758594b7e63d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Those are the very claims in terms of situations and occupational hazards that will be investigated by the research currently being undertaken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022953571681e6843038b37a1cd54ec71d5\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Motorcade\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f610cc45b6664a3fbe76266879019768\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her reported statement in respect of her speeding motorcade that she \u201Cwas not aware of what speed they were doing\u201D and does that mean she was not aware that her motorcade was breaking the speed limit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d339741b22ab4849b753562ae5f0e816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d339741b22ab4849b753562ae5f0e816\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E As I have advised the member before, Ministers are not commenting on matters currently before a police investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221348e614182f410bb315d133b16c1d71\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Prime Minister refusing to be interviewed by the police when she forged a painting, can she confirm to this House that she is prepared to be interviewed by the police on this matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89a819c539a4a9d8b7ed3e8612c3cf9\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I have advised the member, Ministers will not be commenting on any matters currently before a police investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224155d2e742e34e68861a32a4c57450b4\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is one of the interesting things that we have in the House where the Prime Minister is quite happy to tell the press that she was not aware of the speed at which the motorcade was travelling. She is quite happy to do that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d4cb183aa644d9a1a05d2c5c382b52\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c338977ea2e4bb380565cff8a94e333\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is that the Prime Minister was quite happy to tell the press outside this House, but is not happy to confirm the statement in the House. The implication is that the statement outside the House was not correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227aa3994728e4c7492b259de1b738a13\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a062fb5f8b524279a2096b983586cbcd\u0022\u003EPhysical Activity\u2014Primary School Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269285b8fab12462cb87381c30ee84369\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What steps is he taking to encourage primary school children to be more active?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220bd92ac4b25e408dac55d74447056fb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bd92ac4b25e408dac55d74447056fb8\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Education regulations will be changed to make physical activity a priority for schools. As a result of this change, each child will be required to participate in at least 1 hour of meaningful and high-quality physical activity a week, facilitated by a physical activity education specialist or a teacher with extra training. That will be in addition to the regular health and physical education curriculum requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d10c186935ba4e47b323fa90d9b5ba1b\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What research has the Minister seen on the importance of physical activity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022985b2b85376548f38b141b5da77daa1a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: This is one area where it is not appropriate to promote abstinence. Research also indicates that physical activity enhances brain function, the learning process, and kids\u2019 academic performance across all curriculum areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bff22d52590f456cbe8799b04848ff3f\u0022\u003ESocial Entrepreneur Fund\u2014Termination\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225376d96fabbb408ca3cbd3c254a78eb2\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Can he confirm his statement yesterday that the Social Entrepreneur Fund was his initiative; if so, why did he decide to terminate the fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002204515ad3e5b947b69a407788316f893f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204515ad3e5b947b69a407788316f893f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I did put it into the Labour manifesto. It is an idea, of course, that is commonly applied in many jurisdictions around the world. A decision was made to terminate the Social Entrepreneur Fund for two broad reasons. Firstly, it was not consistent with the Department of Labour\u0027s new strategic direction that is focused on labour market information and regulation, and, secondly, the Community Employment Group was clearly struggling with some aspects of the programme in the current low unemployment environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244beb11fdec74d098d83ad28e6ba7e21\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his 2001 speech about his now defunct social entrepreneur scheme where he boasted: \u201CSocial entrepreneurship does suggest a healthy disregard for rules for the sake of rules and a disregard for illegitimate authority\u201D, and that social entrepreneurs sometimes had a \u201Cbreathtaking disregard for authority\u201D, and, finally, does he still stand by his statement that Losa T\u0101mati was a \u201Ctruly exciting social entrepreneur\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fda134ff88a64a2cabe51f265ec09b3d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly stand by the need for some new ideas, and I would love to hear one from that member. I certainly stand by the notion that we will move away from a traditional welfare State to something new, and I would love to see that member come up with a single idea. Yes, I do stand by many of the people who were in this programme. This programme has changed because circumstances have changed, and because the organisation administering the programme was clearly struggling trying to apply that money when we had been so successful in lowering the level of unemployment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de36814ef914a39bfeba02ae268bf8a\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s answers that social entrepreneur schemes are common and successful throughout the world, including in countries with low unemployment rates, exactly why is it that his scheme under his stewardship has failed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f7d9d0329ad4aaf9f68a8d3ba1ce9e9\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think the concept of being a social entrepreneur will stay on in this country. Many people do it under many different guises. This particular scheme, administered in this particular way, was no longer relevant to the Department of Labour, but is relevant as a general concept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022286c54871360438a927212352ecc6cae\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that Losa T\u0101mati was a truly exciting social entrepreneur?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232f3d496ccd54c24b1bd585214d02216\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of recent developments, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022267d111d4e4d4ca9b07fc3adc597815c\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Did he agree with the Prime Minister when she said that some aspects of the scheme were \u201Cloopy and silliness\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225070f91516994eff9418ab2402b2edce\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, the House can take it for granted that we always agree with the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220244cc7fed664e848eb414cf89b0d57f\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5ad2c32dcf84ebb96dd96ea552d43b6\u0022\u003EFisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee\u2014Member\u0027s Submission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022280cf552060240d0bfd79e50b8660343\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee: Who decided that Nanaia Mahuta\u2019s submission \u201Creceived outside the parameters set by the committee\u201D would be heard and what process was followed in making that decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u00229f77bc9e604e47f4bdbb0433ecd38de6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f77bc9e604e47f4bdbb0433ecd38de6\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Chairperson of the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee):\u003C/span\u003E The committee\u2019s independent specialist adviser made that decision. The process he followed was to select submitters who could bring additional, new, or fresh, perspective to the committee\u2019s deliberation and issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224edf7707212d4d29b6a52807e48a008a\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Was it an independent adviser who made the decision to hear Nanaia Mahuta, not the committee itself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220145ca7c5f104b8fa719ccfc63c01797\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: The committee resolved\u2014an ACT member being present\u2014to ask the independent adviser to assemble a list of suggested extra submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca02d82418f41b88346a5a181f09a51\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Did the specialist adviser consult with the chair of the committee when selecting the extra submitters, including Nanaia Mahuta; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efe287ac27b6438f8b6ee6191fc01eb8\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: As much as he consulted with Dr Wayne Mapp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15ba359c5f546ffbd0dc710c576309c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will have a direct answer, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022752fb95d22b6414782f3018aea95867a\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a910c39f0e43519f3c900c869ddd3e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Was it not a fact that he and his colleagues in the Labour Party were running scared at the time of a h\u012Bkoi being organised by Nanaia Mahuta, and therefore decided to lean over backwards and accommodate her, even though her submission was right outside the parameters, as he himself said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227365a4f8abc841349a92f26880869a0b\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d363460d2d64c30a28b87ac909df439\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad7c4ea9732544aeabb5e0248a113b10\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b196707a30b64fa9b81b5d319d76fdf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b196707a30b64fa9b81b5d319d76fdf8\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. This House is meeting as the New Zealand justice system is crumbling around the head of this Government. This Government cannot deliver justice, but it is happy to write cheques for the worst criminals in this country. This Government has people locked up in prison, court cells, and police cells who are innocent. Prisoners can lodge claims against the Government, and the Government says that they should get payments from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis Government has a shortage of judges and police, but we have a Prime Minister who is prepared to justify payouts to the worst prisoners in New Zealand. That is a no-brainer. Why is the Government defending the payment of tens of thousands of dollars to the worst prisoners in this country? Those payments should be blocked, stopped, and wiped, and the Prime Minister should be doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe listened in the House a few weeks ago to the Deputy Prime Minister, on behalf of the Prime Minister, who warned against removing the right of compensation to prisoners. We have heard Mr Goff say in this House that compensation can be justified. So why are they not making any effort to fix the crumbling justice system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI want to tell the House about the indictment on Labour confidence from Mr Phil Goff, the Minister who wanted to decriminalise sexual behaviour of children aged between 12 and 16, and the Minister who told Cabinet that the country would accept decriminalisation of sexual activity between 12-year-olds. Let us see the concept and the indictment of incompetence under Mr Goff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe have a huge inmate muster crisis, with 200 prisoners being kept in court and prison cells around the country. We have a prison officer recruitment crisis, where the Government admits that it is several hundred short of the necessary number of prison officers in our country. We have huge delays in the court system. In Whangarei, Manukau, and Auckland, lawyers are warning that guilty people may walk free because of delays in the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has a big shortage of judges. This Government says that it is all right to send our judges to Pitcairn, but New Zealand Kiwi victims will have to wait to have their case dealt with. That is what this Government says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThere is a huge shortage of police. Burglary response times all around the country are appalling. There is non-reporting of crime; people have given up. Rotorua has the worst crime rate of any city in New Zealand, and the MP for Rotorua says: \u201CWell, the police commander tells me it\u2019s all right, so I\u2019m not worried.\u201D That is what she says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe have huge delays in methamphetamine testing, where serious criminals are not having their case dealt with because this Government is not properly resourcing the Institute of Environmental Science and Research. Now we find that it can take 2 years to get a person\u2019s case dealt with by the Police Complaints Authority, because this Government is not resourcing the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E They are not resourcing the justice system, but they are happy to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in prisoner compensation. And the Government hides behind saying that it cannot do anything that is retrospective. But Mr Goff has brought in legislation for the extended supervision of child sex offenders\u2014retrospectively. What does the Government think the seabed and foreshore legislation is? It is retrospective legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ENow we hear from Mr Goff that international protocols mean that this Government has to pay compensation to criminals. He was in a Cabinet that put a reservation on that undertaking\u2014that said only the Attorney-General should have the discretion to pay compensation to prisoners\u2014but he was happy to stand up in the New Zealand Parliament and say that we have to do it. Where was he in that Cabinet meeting? This Government is guilty as charged of criminal incompetence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb9225804d9040a2b766574fc50d7aaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb9225804d9040a2b766574fc50d7aaf\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that with spring in the air, with the start of daylight saving, and with long summer nights ahead, New Zealanders are feeling pretty good about themselves and New Zealand\u2014at least the ones who are represented by people on this side of the House are. They are feeling like that because Labour is looking at opinion polls that are just breaking out all over the country, like those spring flowers. The opinion polls say that Labour is 4 to 8 percent solidly in front of the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWe are busy little bees on this side of the House, because we are overseeing a booming economy. We are overseeing the lowest unemployment rate in 17 years. We are overseeing regional growth. We are overseeing more New Zealanders employed than ever before in our history. We are overseeing the drop in the number of people on working-age benefits. We are overseeing the redistribution of $2.75 billion to low to modest income households. We are giving out money for Modern Apprenticeships, and that is applauded by industry. Tomorrow, for example, we will be giving money towards the new, wonderful Gateway programme. It feels like spring on this side of the House. It just gets better. It makes one proud to be a Kiwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EBut on the other side of the House, I have to say that it is all gloom. It is as if winter has not yet finished on the National side of the House. It is as though a weather bomb has just hit on the National side of the House. I say to Mr Donnelly that we do not regard him as being on the National side of the House. The sunshine is creeping across his doorstep as we speak. However, the weather bomb has smacked into exactly where the National Party is sitting. We know this because nothing is happening. National members are indoors. They are beside the fire. They do not want to come out, because they are failing to get their message across. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash told people in his \u014Crewa speech and thereafter that the National Party was on its way to victory. He told them after \u014Crewa that it was health, it was education, it was economics, it was welfare, and it was law and order. We were going to hear about all these speeches that would set the scene and the agenda, and how the National Party would rise again to take over the country. That is what he said. Well, he did not actually say that, because that was far too exciting. He would not have done it that way, at all. He would not have dared to be exciting like that and, of course, he has not given those speeches. We have not heard any policy on race. We have heard no policy on law and order. We have heard no policy on welfare. We have heard no policy on education. National members have even told us that they do not expect to fight the next election on the economy, because it is too good. They will have to move elsewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWhat National Party members have decided to do is listen. They have gone all the way to Invercargill. Dr Brash was there the other night, with all the Rotary groups. They said he came to listen, not to speak, and that is exactly what he did. He listened. Today he was back in the House for the whole of question time\u2014an hour and a half\u2014with many opportunities to ask questions of all the Ministers on this side of the House, but he listened closely to what was going on, because, of course, National Party members have nothing to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EIt could be hibernation, but I think there are internal arguments. Mrs Rich cannot agree with Dr Don Brash on things like welfare. We know that not only can they not agree, but now they do not have any ideas. If we read the Listener article, we see Mrs Rich hanging on the phone for a whole 20 seconds while she comes up with the fact that their policy is going to be\u2014proactive. They cannot get more active than us. Mr Goff and I are even called workaholics by people in the media. We are always working. Mrs King is so thin now, after all the hard work she does, that if she stands side-on, we cannot see her. That is how active we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EMrs Rich wants to tell the country that she will get\u2014proactive. That is a killer of a policy. I can see that going across on the hustings, as they ask: \u201CWhat are you going to do?\u201D, and National Party members say: \u201CGet proactive.\u201D That party dumped Mrs Shipley, it dumped Mr English, and if we look at the way the polls are changing, it is about to dump Dr Brash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228ccf7c9515784009a86eae0c270f78cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ccf7c9515784009a86eae0c270f78cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Every time I look at Australia\u2019s economy and see how much more it has grown in real terms in the last 20 years, I realise what a political failure this Government\u2014its economic and social policies, and its ideology\u2014is. There is an affront to our democracy occurring in New Zealand and in this House. For a democracy to thrive, there must be a free media and a strong and effective Opposition in Parliament. Unfortunately, the leadership of the National Party is so weak and ineffectual that it does not have the capacity to oppose a failed, arrogant Government of control freaks and social engineers. The so-called leadership of the National Party is in hiding, I am told, until next year, because it is too timid to discuss policy in case, it says, someone should steal it. I cannot imagine anybody being dumb enough to do that, but, as they say, the lion of \u014Crewa has become a lamb in this Parliament when it has come to the crunch. This is the first time in history that a chicken has been seen leading a bunch of turkeys. Why will Don Brash not debate treaty policy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022590011d9869d402486199952f73a6df6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that National Party members are reluctant to defend their leader, but that cannot continue. The member cannot call Dr Brash a chicken in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac068e740304b50b74d262b1671de89\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order I want to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae917875e0c41d9af8aa4115ce3e907\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Why will Don Brash not debate treaty policy with New Zealand First? The answer is simple. It is because he cannot. Last week I challenged him, having received criticism from him. He had the effrontery to say, when we released our policy in respect of Treaty of Waitangi principles: \u201CNew Zealand First needs to disengage with Labour\u201D\u2014that is new; I never knew we were engaged with Labour\u2014\u201Cwhich is taking New Zealand in a quite different direction.\u201D I say to Don Brash: \u201CPrecisely!\u201D. That is why we have repeated our policy, which we have now had for maybe 16 years. He said further: \u201CIf it does, it might begin to look credible on this issue.\u201D What a damn cheek! Having stolen our speech in respect of \u014Crewa, he then had the effrontery to say it was his. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWhy will he not debate economic policy? He said the other day in the Dominion Post\u2014and I could not believe this; this is obviously a man of immense political experience\u2014\u201CIn my view the economy will not be the major issue at the next election.\u201D In the whole of the Western World we never, ever hear, particularly in the economic climate in which we live, any respectable Opposition leader making that stance\u2014yet he has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis is a country with a balance of payments crisis. This is a country where per capita incomes now rank 37th in the world. This is a country where we have under 8,000 exports per person and Ireland has 55,000. This is a country that is failing in every way. I do not care what those journalists write about the consumptive economy that is about to burst. The reality is that when we compare our economy with any other sound one, it fails miserably, and the leader of the National Party does not want to debate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee3240c7ec83417d9c8f8f56910e8e83\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The great debater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022876a96e714c74425a5384b7c895531bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He was described by Toastmasters as \u201Cthe great communicator\u201D. The great what? Where is \u201Cthe great communicator\u201D today? He did say that he would debate only with the Prime Minister. That will be like taking candy from a baby. The Prime Minister is not great in debates. I know that because I have been through a number of campaigns, and she has never won one yet. But she will win hands down if the leader of the National Party is left to the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E I have a warning for National Party members: if they cannot do the job then they should get out of the way. They should stop taking up parliamentary time in question time and in debate, and let the party that can take on the Government do the job. Why should Don Brash pick up the salary of the Leader of the Opposition, which is much higher than mine, and never be here to do the job? What is going on here? Where in the Western World would we see that in any self-respecting political party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e0fe8e90bdc42b3b0c0bc3ddc128306\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Nowhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d157ea3f00947b1baa6c39aa31b0c5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course we would not. I say to National Party members that they can hide him now, they can keep him out of the House now, and they can keep him away from the public now, but they cannot hide him in an election campaign. That is one time he cannot hide. If National members think he is bad in the House now, they should wait until the election campaign starts in 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e974543257241f6ac164dd13fb0e9d2\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c32c911c98ed4563829df0f3dbd8e4ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot wait, either. One thing I know is that in the last campaign Labour lost 14 points in the polls in the space of just under 5 weeks. They are as flaky as hell in their support. On this side of the House I see a party in decline, and in that respect that means there is an enormous opportunity for the one Opposition party that knows what it is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf7fdfaf4f0b4f52ace947e30b48492b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf7fdfaf4f0b4f52ace947e30b48492b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is fair to say that we on this side of the House find ourselves in agreement with a large part of the focus of the speech made by the member for Tauranga. I think there is an amount of fraud going on in this House. Someone is collecting the salary for the Leader of the Opposition, and providing none. He turns up every now and again for an hour. He trembles at the knees on the odd occasion that he asks a question\u2014the papers shake in his hands. He learns from that, and so does everyone else. We get reports from all over the place on that. We get headlines like \u201CHome or away, Brash is losing it\u201D, and nothing could be more right than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b746e6d0c194eb8a33b9faca648b27b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Third division NPC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201fb4608022e47f7887d000a90f7af4b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: From a position where every reasonable political commentator thought Dr Brash could be in the game at the end of the year, he has let it just slip-slide away. He promised five speeches, but gave one and a half. Did he follow up the half? No, he did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWe have seen headlines like \u201CBumbling Brash loses plot\u201D\u2014again, that is a really good summary. That is a reason why Winston Peters should be getting the salary of the Leader of the Opposition. I was previously of the opinion that at some stage National Party members would come to their senses and go on bended knees to Mr Peters to ask him to lead them. Given the situation they are in now, and the trend in the polls as far as they are concerned, I have to ask, if they did, why Winston Peters would say yes. It will head in his direction anyway, as the National Party slip-slides away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn a headline Dr Brash stated: \u201CI\u2019ll quit as leader if we lose next election\u201D. We all know when that will happen. What I am asking is why they are delaying it so much in this particular way. Another headline read: \u201CDo-nothing National delays peak\u201D. Well, there are a few other people suggesting a few peaks should be delayed, as well. I think there has been a recommendation of abstinence from some parts of the House, around which I am sure there will be further discussion. [Interruption] Does Mr Williamson know the story? It is a great story. I will share it with the member, but probably not in the House at this particular point in time. I am sure that when I share the story with Mr Williamson, my secret will be safe with him and with the Labour caucus. I think the secret will get around, and that member will love it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWhat does one do when one is in trouble in politics? One does not hide, and that is exactly what Don Brash is doing. He runs from the House part way through question time to hide. He went to Stewart Island, spent most of the day there, and said nothing. He hid on Stewart Island. I spent quite a lot of time during the latest adjournment reading headlines from provincial newspapers to try to see whether he was there, somewhere. There was almost nothing. I am told he went to Southland for a day. We could read that in the paper. We could not see anything else about where Dr Brash went. I made some statements about studentships and some other relatively controversial topics in an area that Dr Brash had been addressing, and the media went looking for him for comment. They could not find him. One of the things one has to learn to do if one is to succeed in politics\u2014and I say this to the two potential leaders of the National Party sitting opposite me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d4c0c9c8734583b071c1725f67e9dc\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Georgina and Maurice!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223104090b6cfa4dad95901df8df9d23a7\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think Georgina is going to be sensible and not run again. I was talking to Simon Power and John Key, who will be contesting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f432c3b8b2424b58ac43311b6fc71d80\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The key to power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d44f89b9bc67425cbf03e7e5be61a343\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The power to the key, or the key to the power\u2014it is a little bit hard to tell. They will be the two who will compete for the National Party leadership after the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad73b66a4ad0409983e07534f3a5e6e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad73b66a4ad0409983e07534f3a5e6e0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Is it not great to hear the Labour Party saying that a person should front up? Do members remember the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, saying: \u201CHere I am\u2014I\u2019m going to be a different sort of leader. I\u2019m going to be the sort of leader who fronts up on the tough issues, and my word is my word.\u201D? Do they remember that? Then she launched \u201Cclosing the gaps\u201D. M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori would be brought together and everything would be happy, but the public said it did not like that. The use of the phrase was banned\u2014verboten! That was what the Prime Minister said; it was a goner and not allowed. Here is a Prime Minister bringing M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 together. Tariana Turia was turfed out. She went, and now she is despised and hated by the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHere is a Prime Minister who said: \u201COh, I\u2019m prepared to be upfront. I\u2019m a Prime Minister who is blunt. I\u2019m a Prime Minister who says it like it is.\u201D She was asked: \u201CTell me, Prime Minister, did you know that you were speeding?\u201D She said: \u201CI didn\u2019t know how fast we were going.\u201D Well, when some person was doing 145 kilometres per hour and the peasants were scattering out of the way through Waimate as if that person were some South American potentate passing through with sirens going\u2014the Prime Minister said, I think, that she did not know how fast she was going; it could have been 150 kilometres per hour, or it could have been 151 kilometres per hour\u2014the person would sure as heck know that that was speeding. And this is a Prime Minister!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe police are investigating whether she was speeding. How long, really, do we think that will take? The ministerial driver, who is under the control of the Prime Minister as Minister responsible for Ministerial Services, has to write an incident report\u2014and he did. It is a very serious thing when one goes through Waimate like the clappers, scattering all and sundry, to get the Prime Minister to a rugby game when she would rather be reading a book at home. She was asked whether he had written a report. The Prime Minister could not say. When asked in this House she did not know or could not say. She was quite happy to tell the press that she did not know how fast she was going. So, when the Prime Minister\u2014and remember that this is a Prime Minister who is upfront and to the point\u2014was asked in the House whether she stood by that statement, she answered that she was not prepared to. Here is a Prime Minister who is prepared to tell stories to the press and not confirm them in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBy the way, do members remember that this is a Prime Minister who forged paintings and then could not remember whether she had. She said that she was not about to be interviewed by the police\u2014\u201CI\u2019m the Prime Minister of New Zealand.\u201D Well, I ask Trevor Mallard why he will not give the lesson that he has just given to Opposition members to his own Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat will happen now? She will swan off to Hungary and Budapest to be with her lefty mates at the Progressive Governance Summit. She is so happy to go to that. Do members remember that the other time she went to it was 9/11? She got off the plane and learned about the twin towers attack going on. She got back on the plane, flew to Italy\u2014and they were all horrified. They said they were lefties, but they had cancelled the conference. They did not even want to be seen with her, because they wanted to go back and support the United States of America in its hour of need. But Helen Clark had just hopped on the plane, so anxious was she to be amongst them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022058dad51dd1b4c229f54c4e10806c0cb\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: She came home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222956e3fb4c7047739ff7331c3ef0fd7f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E:. She came home after she got to Italy and realised that no one else had come\u2014and that they were appalled she had turned up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes throws his hands up. Why? He is like Steve Maharey. He is required by law in New Zealand to believe that everything Helen Clark says is true. That is what the law of New Zealand for the Labour caucus is\u2014everything Helen Clark says is true. I ask Darren Hughes whether Helen Clark forged a painting. He is going all red in the face. That is quite humorous, is it not? We should have the Darren Hughes barometer, so that when one questions the Prime Minister\u2019s integrity or her word, we can see Labour Party members getting excited and Darren Hughes going red. That is the reddest he has ever been. I must have been the closest to the truth we have been on this issue. I say to Darren Hughes that that lesson should be for the Prime Minister of New Zealand. Helen Clark is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022369edd6cba5d4931bdae0a8473597c4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022369edd6cba5d4931bdae0a8473597c4e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Did Rodney Hide not get excited today? He was worried about Darren Hughes\u2019 red face. All I can say to the member is that at least Darren Hughes\u2019 hair has not fallen out. Rodney Hide was to be the man who would be a different leader when he got control of ACT; he was to be a statesman. Well, that did not last very long. Today we have seen him fluff and flounce; he has been full of verbal flatulence all day. That is Rodney Hide, the new leader. That is the leader of a party that talks about \u201CDo what I say, not what I do.\u201D ACT is a party that preaches abstinence but whose leader took ACT from the dizzy heights to 1 percent. ACT is a party that is on the way out. I say ACT should bring back Richard Prebble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EHowever, I have to say that at times we are too harsh on each other in the House during a Wednesday debate. Today, as Minister of Health, I want to share some good advice with the House from a lovely little book that I have been given. I have some advice for members out of this dear little book, which is called The Little Book of Calm. I have a homily for a few people. The first one is for the National Party. It is a little bit of wisdom that states: \u201CSelect your company well.\u201D I say to Maurice Williamson that he has selected his company well, but there are many people in the National Party who are worrying about the factions that they have ended up in. So that is the first piece of wisdom for the National Party. What about the second piece? The book states: \u201CPause between changes.\u201D That is a very good piece of advice. There is always a temptation to lump all one\u2019s changes into one big masochistic event. Well, that is what happened to the National Party. It put all its changes into one big event. It dumped one leader after the next leader after the next leader. I say that National Party members should take a little advice out of this book, and wait a little longer before they change Don Brash. They should get themselves really down in the doldrums before they change him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EHere is a little bit of advice from The Little Book of Calm for Tony Ryall. It states here: \u201CPretend you\u2019re human.\u201D I think that is very good advice. The book states: \u201CBe content with what you are.\u201D I say to Tony Ryall that he should be content with what he is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EBut I am not just giving advice to the National Party. I have a bit of advice from this book for a couple of other parties. Here is some good advice for the Green Party: \u201CGrow your own.\u201D It is very calming to grow one\u2019s own. For the ACT party, I thought this was very apt: \u201CKnow when to withdraw.\u201D It is very important, when one is preaching abstinence, to know when to withdraw. The time is right for the ACT party to withdraw. It is a spent force, and life is over for it. Spring is in the air. The people of New Zealand are looking forward to the summer. The sun is shining, and they are feeling good about themselves. Certainly, older New Zealanders are feeling good about themselves. They know, if they go to the doctor, that they will pay less to go to that doctor today through a primary health organisation than they paid previously. As I have gone around all the bowling clubs in my electorate, the RSA, and so on, I have found it is the older folk who are thanking the Labour Government for what it has done for them. They now can afford to go to the doctor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E I feel very sorry for the National Party, and I think that I can give it another little bit of advice from The Little Book of Calm: \u201CRun for your life.\u201D If I were a National Party member, I would run for my life, because when one looks at the headlines one sees that that party has received, in about 3 short months\u2014[Interruption] Yes, \u201CSkinny\u201D Robinson gave Mr Power that advice today, and I hope he will take some of it. \u201CBumbling Brash loses plot\u201D\u2014how is that for a headline? \u201CHome or away, Brash is losing it\u201D. Well, he is very seldom at home, if home is this House. We seldom see him around here. I do not know about losing it when he is away, but we know he has lost it in here. When Don Brash is away, I gather that he is too busy listening to actually tell people anything. Now everyone is asking whether he has a tongue. He sits there like a stunned mullet, saying absolutely nothing. This headline is one of my favourites: \u201CBrash attack: his boomerang did come back\u201D. That is fantastic. It tells us what the National Party is like today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f55300a82a1e4ef98fbf795427b1d58a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f55300a82a1e4ef98fbf795427b1d58a\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I am not surprised to learn that the Minister of Health has in her no doubt extensive library The Little Book of Calm. No doubt she will not be able to share it with most of the members of the Labour Party, because it did not look as though it had a lot of pictures of it. I suggest that she leaves it on her desk for the vein-popping Minister, Phil Goff, to read the next time he is having a cardiac arrest when he is answering a relatively simple question in the House about why he supports New Zealanders as young as 12 being allowed to have sex, or why he thinks it is OK to pay compensation to some of the worst criminals in the country. Maybe that is why he needs a book of calm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhat is going wrong in the Minister of Finance\u2019s office? What is actually going on in the Minister of Finance\u2019s office? The Minister of Finance is a man who is used to doing the work of 10 men. He is used to being the Prime Minister in disguise. He is used to being the \u201CMinister of Fix-it\u201D. He is used to doing 10 jobs for the Labour Party, and to holding up the failing Government. What is going wrong in the Minister of Finance\u2019s mind? The Minister of Finance is now tremendously confused about whether he is also the Governor of the Reserve Bank. He thinks he is the Governor of the Reserve Bank; he is tremendously confused about his job. A few weeks ago we saw him get up in the House and commit what can only be described as a \u201Cbase rate blooper\u201D: he announced to the country that interest rates were to go up. Oops! He did that just 24 hours before the Reserve Bank governor was meant to do it. I think the Minister of Finance is quite jealous of Dr Brash. He looked across and saw that being Governor of the Reserve Bank was a pretty good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo much did the Minister of Finance enjoy the domestic strategy of putting up interest rates that he has now rolled that out into a global strategy. That is right. He went off to New York and chipped away about how interest rates are to go up two or three times, or as many times as he has fingers on his hand. He was out there parroting away. What did the Minister of Finance tell people? He gave a very interesting interview, chipping away like a little chihuahua up there in New York, and told the Dow Jones analysts that not only will he spend like a drunken sailor, given half the chance, but also that he will talk like a drunken sailor as well. They must have been wondering where on earth the Minister of Finance had come from. They would have thought the Reserve Bank of New Zealand was independent. They would have flicked through the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act and seen the word \u201Cindependent\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI am surprised that Annette King\u2019s little book is not a dictionary. She should give it to the Minister of Finance, who thinks he is the Reserve Bank governor, and get him to define what \u201Cindependent\u201D means. There he was in New York, chipping away to the international media about how interests rates are to go up to 9 percent in New Zealand. It was very nice of him to tell mortgage-belt New Zealand that its interest rates are going up to 9 percent. He does not want to go up and down the country in New Zealand and tell people that interest rates are going up to 9 percent. He would rather tell that to people in New York, because he does not think we will find that out back here in our cosy little enclave down in the South Pacific. He would rather let people know the good news there in New York. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E I suppose that the only question I really have for the Minister of Finance is whether he has actually told Dr Bollard that. Dr Bollard came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but he did not say that interest rates were going up three times. He did not say that floating mortgage rates were going up to 9 percent. He said that there may be one more hike. So one can imagine the shock and dismay of international investors when they found out that news. We have to ask ourselves where it leaves us when our so-called independent Governor of the Reserve Bank is bagged by the Minister of Finance, who has gone offshore and said that the governor is not doing his job properly. There is a word I cannot use in this Parliament, but some members on the Government side of the House were very quick to put the boot in when they were previously on the Opposition side of the House. But now we have had the Minister of Finance go to New York and bag the Governor of the Reserve Bank. That is what he has done\u2014what a vote of no confidence that is! I hope the governor has an iron-tight contract. Alan Bollard will be sitting over there on The Terrace and absolutely trembling, because his boss is in New York, slating him. He is absolutely slating him! The No. 1 risk to the New Zealand economy is his interest rate management\u2014what a shocker that is! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EOld Michael Cullen is on a bit of a roll. I do not know whether he was suffering from air sickness or a bit of turbulence, or what was going on. Not only was he happy to tell the world that interest rates are going up three times but, lo and behold, he said not to tell anyone that, because it was a secret. He said he had been running a thing called the \u201COBERAC\u201D\u2014the operating balance excluding revaluations and accounting changes, or the operating surplus\u2014and telling everyone that there was no money, but now he was going to spend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0c3b300cb224099b4adf2cb90a0fdb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0c3b300cb224099b4adf2cb90a0fdb4\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E There we go\u2014that was the temporary member for Helensville. He knows absolutely that he is the temporary member and that he has another 12 months to serve. People in West Harbour, K\u016Bmeu, and Whenuapai do like him, but they do not like the party he represents. They do not like National\u2019s leader, and that is why Mr Key will be the shortest term MP that Helensville has ever had. Having said that, I wanted to talk a bit to the House today about the \u201Cp\u201D letter, in terms of Parliament, of performance, and of a whole range of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EIn the last 12 days, we have seen one of the most bizarre and perverse coming-outs in the political history of this country, and it has been bizarre. There is a connection between ACT and the National Party, and what is that connection? It is the Business Roundtable. The person who writes the policy\u2014the bridge, the link\u2014for both the National Party and the ACT party is Roger Kerr. That link between those two parties has now been absolutely destroyed. When the Business Roundtable rocks up anywhere to make a submission, and when Roger Kerr rocks up anywhere to say anything on anything to anyone, what will we now think? No longer will we see integrity, and no longer will he have credibility. It is quite clear that the m\u00E9nage \u00E0 trois between Don Brash, Roger Kerr, and the leader of the ACT party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd4bfaca357e41419c2f366f1ce20c43\u0022\u003EGovernment Member\u003C/span\u003E: Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be165155d1994746ab5435a62a7108d9\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right, Rodney Hide\u2014\u201CMr 1 Percent\u201D. That member used to always be known out in the private sector as \u201C20 Percent Rodney\u201D, but in this Chamber he is \u201CMr 1 Percent\u201D. So Kiwis are starting to wake up and acknowledge very quickly and very clearly that members on the Opposition side of the House are gone. The speakers who have risen on that side today have acknowledged that. Normally, Mr Key\u2019s contribution is full of passion, vim, and vigour, and it has some spark about it. We know that those members have gone, that they are gutted, and that Don Brash no longer has the spark and the sparkle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe Opposition members are supposed to make five speeches and to lead the policy debate. They had a go at the H\u014Dris\u2014end of story. Secondly, what did they do? They had a go at the prisoners, or the crims\u2014end of story. They were half shots and no shots. We are waiting for the other three big ones, and they will not say anything. Why? We will\u2014the \u201Cp\u201D word\u2014pinch the policy. We are on the policy front foot. There is no need to look across the House to the Opposition side. That side is absolutely bankrupt in regard to the way that its policy advisers, led out of the Business Roundtable by Roger Kerr and co., link with the old policies of the old, failed era that Don Brash is so very much the symbol of. It must be terrible to rock up to the National Party caucus on a Tuesday. When those members walk in there for their cream scones and teas, the difficulty is palpable. We can sense it pervading through Parliament\u2014that \u201Cp\u201D word is a wonderful word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI wanted to spend a bit of time on the ACT party, because it is really important, when a party is under stress and difficulty, to see how it responds. How did ACT respond? Well, where was Rodney Hide? He was in Spain\u2014sunning it in Majorca, or whatever they call it, with his mate Alan Gibbs. He was over there saying: \u201CGibbs me more, Gibbs me more money, because it\u2019s dried up onshore. We\u2019re down to 1 percent. Give us another couple of million. Gibbs me more, Gibbs me more.\u201D That is what Rodney Hide does. The beauty about Rodney is that it is a bit like Pavlov\u2019s dogs, which sit there and salivate. I have seen him. As soon as anybody with a chequebook walks around this Parliament as a lobbyist, one sees Rodney Hide panting\u2014absolutely panting behind that person. I find that \u201Cp\u201D word absolutely disgraceful, as well. There is no doubt that Rodney Hide, Deborah Coddington, and the rest of the ACT party caucus have passion. That party, which was to be the opportunity for the National Party to maybe get near the Treasury benches, is imploding. What a great day it is when members on the Government side can see a party that merely comes into this House and talks about rack and ruin. It is no longer on the policy front foot and no longer has any ideas. ACT is the party of no ideas\u2014apart from being in touch with its masculine side and, by the sound of it, quite a bit of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00227543289582104cd4bab3f23c9a01f403\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227543289582104cd4bab3f23c9a01f403\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E In my second speech in this House, I accused a member of being drunk in charge of the country. That was not a revelation, but it was received with outrage by most members of this House, who thought that such things should not be spoken. I still get a whiff of alcohol in this Chamber at times. It is not common, but it happens. I am not opposed to people having a drink, but I do oppose the hypocrisy that says: \u201CDrinking alcohol on parliamentary business is OK, but I\u2019m tough on other people\u2019s drugs.\u201D All drugs can cause harm. Some, such as methamphetamine, seriously damage most users. Some, such as cannabis, can cause real harm\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deca0a7162e2465cbb79e99f5b17fdf0\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt the member\u2019s speech, but I think that it reflects badly on the 120 members of Parliament if a member comes down here to the Chamber and make accusations that there are whiffs of alcohol in this Parliament. I personally take offence at that. I think that if the member wants to name somebody under the parliamentary privilege that he has, he should go ahead. If he is talking about Winston Peters, the leader of New Zealand First\u2014which clearly he was, because he was talking about the time that he was Treasurer of the country\u2014he should say so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228712ba47905c4636b01ea497221024e6\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: I take very strong offence at the comment that Mr John Key has just made. He has used the opportunity of a point of order to make reference to the leader of the party I belong to as being the very member that Mr Tanczos was talking about, when clearly there is quite a distance between those individuals. So I would ask that you ask Mr Key to withdraw that reference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225442547cdcd04d4685966ffd1a4f35db\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, that was the only specific reference that was made. It was not direct, but I know the implication of it. I, on behalf of the House, did not take offence at what Mr Tanczos was saying. It was broad enough and, goodness me, enough references have been made to that member on a number of things. So members should not be so touchy. Let us get back to where we were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6dd8c2365a4616b2435faf2f4033c4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: With all due respect, I would ask you\u2014and I know it is probably inappropriate for me to do so\u2014to reconsider, probably, both parts of your ruling. Certainly, I think there was a reflection on all members from the member from the Green Party, but I do want to make the specific point that a suggestion that a particular member of this House is intoxicated is inappropriate. It should not be made, and I think it should be withdrawn and apologised for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022437ec0ef837f41f0b00d88ff4492be91\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have ruled on that matter, and I will not take any more advice on it. I took us back to the beginning. There were two slight transgressions there, and I am willing to go back to the beginning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223da0c7f3deec45b4b8441f58b28e14a3\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: All drugs can cause harm. Some, such as methamphetamine, seriously damage most users. Some, such as cannabis, can cause real problems when abused, especially by young people. But the consensus among the professionals is that the major problem drug is alcohol. In order to genuinely reduce the harm caused by drugs in this country, we need to focus on the seriousness of the harm itself, and not just on the legal or illegal status of the drug that causes it. We must focus on the harm caused by all drugs, and we need to get our priorities straight. All drugs can cause harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EInconsistent legislation only causes more harm. We need legislation in this country that is consistent, integrated, and evidence based. I welcome the statement by the Hon Phil Goff this afternoon that the Government will be guided by the evidence on this matter. It is a pity that the United Future party will not make the same commitment as the Government has made. United Future consistently refuses to accept or look at the evidence, and it still refuses to publicly debate the issue, even though Mr Dunne and other members of the party have been invited to do so numerous times. We need legislation that can regulate all drugs, integrate drug education and drug treatments into the framework, and begin to take the politics out of the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe Greens have a proposal. It is the beginning of a discussion, not the end of it. We believe we can develop a controlled drugs framework that sends a message that all drugs carry the risk of harm if abused, and that allows each drug to be regulated according to the evidence on how to reduce harm from that particular drug. We have proposed a framework that would have a class A, with a high level of restriction. The possession and sale of drugs in that class would be illegal, except for therapeutic use and research purposes. For example, methamphetamine would be in that schedule. We suggest a class B, with a medium level of restriction. The sale of class B drugs would be illegal except for therapeutic purposes, but R18 possession would be legal. As an example, we would put codeine and cannabis in that class. In class C we would suggest a low level of restriction. The sale and possession of class C drugs would be permitted for general use, with a range of restrictions, such as an R18 restriction. The framework would address whether sales must be from licensed premises or could be from more general premises. It would ensure there were advertising restrictions, and that there were warnings on the containers of all drugs on sale. In that class we would include alcohol, tobacco, benzylpiperazine, and things like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe believe that the use of illegal drugs, or under-age use, should be dealt with by giving honest information on the consequences of drug use. There should be a compulsory assessment, and if there is evidence of a drug dependency, then treatment should be provided. All members of this House know that despite the extra money put in by this Government, the treatment services are still underfunded. They have been consistently underfunded for decades under previous Governments, and it is time to put some real funding into that area. That approach was reiterated by Joe Walsh during his anti-P performance today in the Beehive, when he made a plea for addiction to be seen as an illness rather than as a criminal matter, and for treatment to be made available to people. The Greens believe we need legislation that will lead to fewer drugs in schools and fewer drugs problems, and that will tackle drugs across the board\u2014from alcohol, to nicotine, to cannabis, and to other drugs. We believe we need a consistent, an integrated, and an evidence-based policy framework to deal with drugs in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00227998ffb9fb7e46889b1123aabf89e581\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227998ffb9fb7e46889b1123aabf89e581\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E If members tune into TV3 tonight they will see a new Kiwi comedy that is taking the country by storm. It is called bro\u2019Town, and it is a good example of Kiwi ingenuity and comedy. But another TV programme will be hitting our screens sometime in the next 12 months. It will have fanciful cartoon characters that are equally as unbelievable, and it will be called \u201CDr Flip-Flop\u201D. It will be a cartoon show that will feature an elderly main star with a PhD surrounded by a hapless band of bandits as they go around trying to convince the people in their neighbourhoods that they have ideas. It will be a disaster of a show. It will get no ratings. New Zealand On Air will not touch it. But it will make great viewing for people interested in politics and Parliament, because those on \u201CDr Flip-Flop\u201D are about to be exposed on television as the kinds of characters they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EIt is almost 1 year since the National Party list MP Don Brash, a first-term member of Parliament\u2014not that there is anything wrong with that\u2014became the Leader of the Opposition. Since that time, we could only describe the National Party as being a riderless horse in this Parliament. There is no better example than in recent times\u2014being yesterday and today. As members know, we have had a 2-week adjournment\u2014a chance for members to fan out across the country. I noticed that the leader of New Zealand First was very busy over the adjournment. Labour and Progressive members were very busy with party caucuses and talks with constituents. They were out around the country getting a contest of ideas that they could bring back to Parliament so we can debate the things we believe in. But what has happened in the last 2 days within the re-energized and refreshed National Party? We have seen the same tired old style and strategy that it has had in the year since we have been subjected to Don Brash as the Leader of the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what has happened so far this year in the opinion polls, we see that the National Party, under Dr Brash\u2019s strong and solid leadership, has shaved off a quarter of its support. I predict that by the time Dr Brash gets to his first anniversary as leader, he will be polling exactly the same as when he took over from Mr English. The National Party will have been on this extraordinary 1-year journey with its leader\u2014a list MP and first-term member\u2014and it will have arrived back at exactly the point it left with Mr English. That has me thinking that the Labour Party will have to do some thinking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI say to my colleagues that I am not convinced we will be facing Dr Brash on the hustings in the next general election campaign. I think the \u201Cpossum in the headlights\u201D approach he has been taking shows that this man is rattled. The \u201Cgreat debater\u201D is nowhere to be seen and nowhere to be heard. I know we have adjusted for daylight saving time, but we can still work out that Parliament starts at 2 o\u2019clock and that members should get their questions in to the Clerk by some time in the morning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c3fc059f5d242e9a882da40d80ec61b\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: By 10.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9439ba3eafc43ffa3726de4d34bf06f\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: By 10.30, I am told. Members get their questions in by 10.30 and they have a chance to get up in Parliament and ask questions of the Prime Minister and other Ministers. When the general debate starts, at just after 3 o\u2019clock, members have the chance take the first slot in the debate and take it to the Government\u2014like a Leader of the Opposition is meant to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI think Gerry Brownlee is getting ready to lurch up and take the job. How do I know that? Mindless speculation? Oh, no! I watch Murray McCully on these matters. Murray McCully is the great ace strategist of the National Party. I know that because Simon Power says it. If Simon Power says it, it must be right. Where George Bush goes, Simon Power goes. Where Murray McCully goes, Simon Power is not too far after him. Murray McCully has given advice to Jim Bolger, to Jenny Shipley, to Bill English, and now to Don Brash. We know that Murray McCully has stopped paying for Don Brash\u2019s lemon, lime, and bitters at the end of the day. He is now funding Gerry Brownlee\u2019s cheeseburgers. I would be very worried. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EDon Brash was going to be the man available 24/7 to defeat the Government. But now when we ask him a question, what does he say? \u201CI am uncomfortable with the National Party policy position. I have yet to reread our 2002 manifesto, and although I am not unsympathetic to the point that is made, I am not sure I can announce my policy at this time.\u201D If one is going be available 24/7 to defeat the Government, that is hardly the way to do it. He said he would work with the Devil to defeat the Labour Party. At the time, I thought that was a very rough analogy to draw with the ACT party but, as it turns out, sinning is the done thing in that party. There were going to be five speeches. Only two of them have been given. That is a 40-percent work rate, which, I guess, is not too bad for a part-time worker. That is not too bad for Dr Brash. Forty percent is not bad. He is a bit tired after giving 40 percent of the work he promised to give. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dafef82ae5ee41ce819ce532034336d6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Two speeches in a year!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bda8f22a5d7640b1879066617e6c39e4\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Two speeches out of five have been given, and the other three will not be made. In 1 year he will give only two. He turned up in the tea party hat in Ratana, and he gave a speech to the Sensible Sentencing Trust about being tough on crime. He was going to be the big prison warden. It reminded me of Hogan\u2019s Heroes, with Dr Brash as Colonel Klink and Gerry Brownlee as Sergeant Schultz. It was an absolute joke, but it was much better than the normal Monty Burns and Homer Simpson routine they do. That party is a joke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00220278da4d085b40a1a95a78412b67351a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220278da4d085b40a1a95a78412b67351a\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to congratulate the Hon Trevor Mallard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f24af7f2a01040e29ad1a7963ff773a1\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Steady!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a73b352b76214e22b3a57c232c33508b\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: I do. I want to congratulate him on having the gumption to stand up and say that we need to look at the length and frequency of p\u014Dwhiri in our schools. What he said is justified. He did not say we should not have such ceremonies at our schools\u2014although, by the way, there is a mismatch with the secular clause in the Act. He said that the length and the frequency need to be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ETrevor Mallard is talking about adaptation, and I have to say I have also witnessed children sitting for long periods of time\u2014up to an hour in one case\u2014on concrete or asphalt, sometimes in the rain, listening to what are, in effect, meaningless whakapapa. A formulaic protocol devised for a marae situation\u2014an adult situation\u2014is being thoughtlessly forced upon our children. So I praise Trevor Mallard for standing up and saying something about it. But where is the support of his colleagues? They know that what he is saying is true. Where are the other members of the Labour caucus? Where is the support of his ministerial colleagues for the statements he is making? Where are the Labour members who are prepared to stand up and say that some of the practices carried out in the name of meeting the demands of the Treaty of Waitangi verge on child abuse? In no other context would we tolerate this nonsense. I say we have lost the plot, somewhat. Trevor Mallard said we have lost the plot, somewhat, and his colleagues have left him hanging out to dry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWhere are the Labour members who are prepared to stand up and say New Zealand First is correct when it suggests that any reference to the principles of the treaty should be expunged from legislation? Labour members have come to conclude that the existence of such principles within legislation is in fact a load of nonsense. When Geoffrey Palmer first put them in there it seemed like a good idea, but the reality and the practice has not been the same. At select committees now it is argued that the principles of the treaty are too vague to be included and that they create too many problems. The treaty principles can be everything to everybody, and they create a form of temporary insanity within our bureaucrats. Labour Ministers know this, and they do not include such clauses in legislation nowadays. Margaret Wilson knows this. Where is the reference to the principles of the treaty in the Ng\u0101ti Awa legislation? It is in the explanatory note and nowhere else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EOfficials advise us that including the principles of the treaty in legislation is no longer considered to be the brightest thing to do because of the chaos it causes, but what Labour MP or Minister has come out and said that New Zealand First and Winston Peters have got it right in moving to expunge that unfortunate phrase from legislation? No one. In fact, they have said nothing. There has been not a sound, a syllable, a murmur, or a mutter. They are not allowed to say anything about it. The reason nothing is being said\u2014normally we would get a humungous attack on such a policy as was announced last week\u2014is that Labour members know that what New Zealand First is saying is right and correct and will take this nation forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWhat other announced treaty policy from New Zealand First has received deadly silence from Labour? It is New Zealand First\u2019s policy that refines the process of addressing historical grievances in order to enable these to be brought to resolution in an expeditious way. If members were to ask 100 New Zealanders, 99 would answer that they recognise there have been injustices and that these need to be settled and that then we can get on as a nation. However, there is real frustration with the seeming endlessness of the process and the frivolous claims elicited by the nebulous principles-of-the-treaty clauses in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe Government knows that there is an inherent conflict of interest when an activist and M\u0101ori Land Court judge acts as chairman of the tribunal. How many times must Margaret Wilson have thought: \u201CWho will rid me of this troublesome judge?\u201D. But she will not come out and say it. She would risk putting herself in the politically correct firing line. So she says nothing, and in saying and doing nothing she endorses the very policies that New Zealand First has been putting forward. The Government knows that restructuring the mechanisms for reconciliation is critical to the expeditious resolution of grievances, yet it will do nothing on its own initiative. We have to ask why the Government is so quiet on all these matters. Even the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade is saying that its relationships with foreign countries are formed with regard to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Hello! The Government is quiet because it knows that New Zealand First is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4516991957f4fb2824d60fbcbc74bbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4516991957f4fb2824d60fbcbc74bbd\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand as the final speaker in the general debate today to celebrate our Government\u2019s achievements and success. It is a good stable Government, and we have a good stable economy. It is a Government that has shown, and continues to show, leadership and one that tackles the hard issues. This Government is absolutely committed to improving the health and wealth of ordinary New Zealanders, and it is working. We know that it is working. Compare this with the Opposition. Judith Collins and Simon Power are sitting there, looking so glum and forlorn as they wallow in the demise of their party. What an Opposition, members might say, and they would be right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EDon Brash is the doom and gloom merchant. He sees, and we all see, that National is now languishing in the polls. Its only possible coalition partner\u2014its members are also gloomy, wherever they are\u2014is polling so low that it is not worth a mention. It is actually polling below the margin of error. What a mess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI missed a very big event last night. Don Brash spoke, and I was very sad to have missed it. I understand that he named a few unionists in the Labour Party, including \u201CMr Red Flag\u201D himself\u2014David Cunliffe, the man who put the \u201Cfizz\u201D into fiscal management\u2014and our young \u201Cwhippersnapper\u201D, Darren Hughes. It is his first job, but who is he, according to Mr Brash? He is the extremist from the Public Service Association. We acknowledge that they are certainly to the left of Mr Brash, but there is an awful lot of room to the left of Mr Brash. We all know that Mr Brash has no time whatsoever for unions or workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003ELet us look back at some of his memorable quotes, and I would say that these are genuine quotes. Firstly, he said: \u201CCould we, for example, drop all benefits to the able-bodied and scrap the statutory minimum wage, so that pay rates could fall to the point where the labour market fully clears \u2026?\u201D. Our answer to Mr Brash is that we now have unemployment at 4 percent and it was achieved by raising the minimum wage; not by dropping it. He then wants to gradually raise the age at which people become eligible for New Zealand superannuation. For his part, he does not care who owns the schools in our country. National would repeal the 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave provision. The most appalling of all his quotes is: \u201CLegal requirements that provide safe workplaces are a barrier to growth.\u201D That is a genuine quote. Can you believe that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022702c5aa7e13f48d2afbfa95fe5f7e7bd\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Stop saying \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c0219efad2d4914a56d6762f8554c1b\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Can anybody believe that? I thank Mr Power. Can anybody believe that anyone in his or her right mind would say that legal requirements that provide safe workplaces are a barrier to growth? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003ENational and Don Brash have now cottoned on. Every time Mr Brash opens his mouth he puts his foot in it, but National members have a very, very clever strategy now. They know exactly how to deal with this. They have the answer. They will say nothing, they will go nowhere, and they will lay low. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI wonder whether members remember that brave, new, dynamic leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffdbf43e1de049f089a5931919fb7a37\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd9312ff9c64a2e85c23b7534075a15\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brash, that is who. I know we have not seen or heard much of him over the last few months, but we remember when he planned to give a major speech on each of the five main priorities: race relations, education, welfare dependency, security, and the economy. He roared in, stirred up race relations, and falsely claimed that M\u0101ori get more bereavement leave than anyone else. He thought that he was on to a winner, so he moved on to law and order next. That was a bad move. Crime statistics are now at a 15-year low, so that was a fizzer. We have not seen or heard anything more of Mr Brash since.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3115f668eb640a4bb21c6cc9563ce38\u0022\u003EHuman Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002240f5ddfe04074f88bf3603e11763bffd\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5d6c3d418a4489c95ef2debdb18a2d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5d6c3d418a4489c95ef2debdb18a2d7\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Human Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002299dd63d5d126422482a179b115952dc8\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022277855be6af84797ba182a59fa66d366\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00227db79500ca844fbb875f90df52256594\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227db79500ca844fbb875f90df52256594\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It is with great pleasure that I speak on Part 1, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D, of this Human Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill, which deals particularly with the purposes, the principles, and the areas of procedures or treatments that can be declared to be established procedures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EUndoubtedly, we have seen a revolution of treatment in this reproductive field, particularly since 1978 when the first test-tube baby was born. But what has to be realised is that there is a whole spectrum of treatments available to a modern society, which may go from very simple treatments, such as ovulation induction or sperm production improvement, to the more complex technologies. I think it is important that it is clearly spelt out in the purposes clause that the bill is to secure the benefits of assisted reproductive procedures, and established procedures, for mainstream society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI have noted from various groups who have opposed this bill, such as some individual Roman Catholics or even some M\u0101ori, that they find it difficult to accept some of the modern technologies that are available. But in reality as a former practising clinician in this field, I have found no group who has not wanted for one reason or another to take advantage of those assisted reproductive technologies. Undoubtedly, there is the reality of a need among all groups in society that I know of to take advantage of their benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhat clearly is contentious are some of the complex technologies to do with cloning, hybridisation, and further possibilities that might be associated with stem cells. Part 1, through the schedules, makes clear provision to prohibit unacceptable assisted reproductive procedures. Undoubtedly in schedule 1 we have a list of procedures that are unacceptable to mainstream society. That list is likely to grow, and through the provisions of this bill to change from time to time, but it is unlikely to be changed without considerable deliberation and care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of the purposes clause that I think is worth while commenting on is the establishment of a comprehensive information-keeping regime, to ensure that people born from donated embryos or donated cells can find out about their genetic origins. There is no doubt that one of the major thrusts of the submissions we had is that people do, indeed, want to find out about their backgrounds. One of the major philosophies behind this bill is the promotion of the ethos of openness, which I think is absolutely appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is also vital that clear records are kept, to ensure that morbidity and mortality are recorded so that successful procedures can be monitored. Again, there is a set of principles spelt out clearly to ensure that the health and well-being of children born as a result should be an important consideration in all decisions about procedures. At one stage of events it was to be a paramount consideration, but undoubtedly the practicality is that all people involved in procedures do have a degree of risk. It is vital that risks to men, women, and children are all taken into account as being seriously important. I do think that the Health Committee, perhaps, has become a little politically correct when it not only pointed out that the needs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee6eeecfa6e84040996003cdd7a96947\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee6eeecfa6e84040996003cdd7a96947\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E The Assisted Human Reproduction Bill, which was a Government bill introduced in 1998, and the Human Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill, which was a member\u2019s bill introduced in 1996 in the name of Dianne Yates, basically became a hybrid with a Supplementary Order Paper, which we have in the Committee tonight. The Health Committee worked very comprehensively on this bill. It is highly technical, and I think we have all agreed on the outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EUnless people have actually been through the process of knowing what it is like to not be able to have a child, when a family wants that, and when mum and dad are desperate to have a child, they do not fully understand how emotive these issues can become. To get a bill on human assisted reproductive technology that will meet the requirements of those people who are emotionally involved in the process, plus protect society from those people who would want to experiment at a level that most people would not find acceptable, is what has been the aim of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe bill itself under the purposes and principles establishes that there will be no cloning, no hybrid embryos, and no commercial surrogacy. Now surrogacy, in a non-commercial sense, is going to be acceptable under this bill, but not in a commercial sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EStem cell research, of course, in other countries of the world has been highly contentious. For those members who read the New Zealand Herald this morning, they will have seen that even in the American presidential elections it has become a huge debate where Kerry has actually blasted George Bush over health-care cuts because he wants to stop stem cell research. In this country I think we are lucky to have this bill coming before the House at this time, rather than 5 or 6 years ago, because technology, and our understanding of what can be done and what is acceptable, has moved a great deal as developments have occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhen the Health Committee went to Australia 2 years ago one of the main topics being debated at that time was about human assisted reproductive technology and stem cell research. As a doctor and a geriatrician I have to support stem cell research. It can, or may, offer huge advances for the future. It may offer huge advances for patients who may have diseases such as Parkinson\u2019s disease\u2014a disease that affects a very small part of the brain, the substantia nigra, but causes massive problems and disability, and eventually the death of the patient. Anything that for the future could stem the tide, or perhaps turn it round and effect a cure of a disease such as Parkinson\u2019s or motor neurone disease, I think, it is our obligation that we should be able to continue that research here in New Zealand and throughout the world. The purpose of this bill is to give a robust and flexible framework to regulation and guide the performances of future assisted reproductive technology. Things change markedly in this area, sometimes just by accident; someone finds a better way, or observes a better way, to actually have a positive outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E The other principal concern within this bill is that of the donor children\u2014those children who are actually created as a result of a donated egg or sperm. These children do need to have access to their genetic information, and I certainly support Dr Paul Hutchison\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, which would mean that a register of donors is kept so that children can have access. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe had a lot of debate about the age at which a child should be able to get access to the actual name of the donor, and that will remain at 18 but the genetic information will be available before that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAlso of concern for the purposes and principles of this bill was how we allow additions, perhaps, to the list of prohibited actions that is contained in schedule 1. What would be prohibited and what would be considered to be acceptable progression for reproductive purposes? How do we add something to the list and how do we take it off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f36273e669674ce996b07783d60defe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f36273e669674ce996b07783d60defe2\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I congratulate Dianne Yates on having the gumption to bring this bill to the House and on working with the Health Committee to make sure she got a bill that, I believe, the vast majority of parliamentarians here will support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe fact is that regulations of this particular nature are not going to please everybody, but at the moment the area is vastly under-regulated and there is a need for some regulation. Some parts of this bill are probably too permissive. Some parts are probably too tough. All of those sorts of things probably apply, but it is at least an attempt to do something and put some stakes in the ground as to what is and is not acceptable in the area of human assisted reproductive technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI am particularly pleased that we have a Supplementary Order Paper from Paul Hutchison in relation to the voluntary register to be maintained by the Registrar-General about the birth and donor details for children who are born from assisted reproductive technology. One of the reasons is\u2014I have said it once and I will say it again\u2014that all children deserve to know their whakapapa. It does not matter which race they are. They should know their ethnicity and where they come from. I am really pleased that we have an acknowledgment of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis register will be voluntary. Many of us would like to see it expanded to become compulsory because of the children\u2019s needs. Having said that, I accept that it would be very difficult to get that to work in an area where there is so little donation available, and it would possibly stop that small amount of donation. So I am happy to support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAlso, having looked at clause 4, \u201CPrinciples\u201D, I do have some reservations about the political correctness of the bill. I am very supportive of the provision in paragraph (g), which states: \u201Cthe different ethical, spiritual, and cultural perspectives in society should be considered and treated with respect.\u201D I think that is a very sensible provision. However, I do not understand why there needs to be a separate provision to say that the needs, values, and beliefs of M\u0101ori should be treated with respect. This implies that M\u0101ori are in some way not in fact part of society. I think that that provision is unfortunate and that it brings political correctness in the extreme into what is probably going to be, pretty much, a multiparty-supported bill. I find that somewhat silly and I think it could well be deleted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I note that the changes that have been made to the bill\u2014and they are numerous\u2014show the degree of thoroughness that the select committee was able to bring to its consideration of the bill. The bill has been around for a while, so technology has changed in that time. I do query whether we are likely to have to look at this legislation again in the near future because of further changes to technology. Perhaps the permissiveness of the bill will make that unnecessary, but I wonder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is certainly funny that we live in a country where we are very, very concerned about human assisted reproductive technology, yet we do not really value children and parenthood as much as we should. In fact, the very first and best thing we can do in society is be good parents. No matter what we do in this Parliament, none of it is of any use at all if nobody is out there being a good parent. None of it is of any use to us past this generation unless we do in fact value children, their parents, and the people who give up so much to become parents, and we very much value what happens to those children after they are born. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI am happy to go along with the purposes of the bill. I am happy to support the bill, and I will be supporting, as well, the amendments put forward by Paul Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022795ad6289af94cc6829702539a23728f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022795ad6289af94cc6829702539a23728f\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I have to state upfront that United Future will, from here on, be registering a split vote. As the member for United Future who is on the Health Committee, I have faced some issues and some struggles. There are some conscience issues that crop up in this bill that I have a personal problem with. But I have tried to separate those issues from the need to look at the regulatory framework that is being proposed here to see, regardless of whether I like which category everything has been placed in, whether the system for regulating this technology is appropriate. But at that level I again have had some problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI take some time now to thank Dianne Yates. I think there is probably no one else in this House who has shown such a commitment to getting a system to regulate this technology. The work she has done, the trips she has taken, and the research she has done have been quite phenomenal. If this bill reflected her original bill, then my position at the end of this process would be quite different. None of us wants to see medical science held back from making breakthroughs that alleviate suffering, but my concern is that we are straying into areas where the very nature of what it means to be human is put up for grabs, and we need to be very careful in the way we allow this to advance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWhat I am saying is that the means by which we achieve good outcomes in health are as important ethically as the outcomes themselves. I have some real concerns. There was a joke in the House earlier about the fact we should not worry, because the market will determine the outcomes, and that is my very real fear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2be10898d924d71b2091ee338d6ef97\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That wasn\u2019t a joke. I was serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7a7209eccde4f2e8ef3b04728b03e4f\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: Was it not? I thank Mr Power. I want to cite a story that I have read about and told members before. In the United States a drug, a growth hormone, was developed by drug companies to treat dwarfism. It was given orphan drug status by the American Government because the expected uptake of the drug was quite small. What actually happened was that the uptake was phenomenal. It was way outside expectations. It had never been expected that lots of mums and dads would rush out and procure it for their short children, to see whether they could up the ante and improve their height. In Western society where we are very consumer driven, we have to understand that technologies like the ones we are regulating here will have a demand on them that is beyond just the demand that people with critical health problems or fertility problems will require\u2014hence my feeling that the real need here is for caution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E I proposed a couple of amendments in Part 1; one is to the definition of an embryo. The current definition in the bill talks about an embryo, then excludes from the definition embryonic stem cells. I feel that in a warped sort of way this definition says that one is an embryo unless it does not suit our purposes, and then one is not an embryo. I believe that the reason for this wording is that we want to keep the door wide open for future stem cell legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI also want to make it clear that I am not against the use of stem cells or stem cell research. I do have some ethical problems with where we get stem cells from. Certainly, I have real reservations about embryonic stem cells being used, particularly when we have seen some fabulous advances and medical breakthroughs as we find the very good use we can make of adult stem cells, and that would certainly be my preference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAs we go through the bill, and in particular in Part 2, there are some areas that I have a huge concern about, and I want to leave some of my comments until then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u002285e76a59663c4f54aba2f9a39a8288ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285e76a59663c4f54aba2f9a39a8288ae\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First): \u003C/span\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Heamana. \u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e noho tahi ana i roto i te Whare i te r\u0101 nei. E t\u016B ake ana t\u0113nei ki te tautoko i ng\u0101 whakaaro o taku hoa o m\u0101tou i roto o Aotearoa Tuatahi, a Barbara Stewart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI stand in support of the contribution that my colleague Barbara Stewart has committed to this bill. I tender her apologies. To assure members that I did have some participation in this process, I tell them that this matter came before the Health Committee during my membership of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this bill and, in particular, the amendment proposed by Dr Hutchison. This is an emotive issue, and within Part 1 the purposes and principles of this bill are very clearly defined and specified. They advise on the procedures and treatments that may be declared to be established procedures. We believe that the bill adopts a cautious but balanced approach to this area of human-assisted reproductive technology. Very clearly, the bill states that one of its purposes is to prohibit unacceptable assisted reproductive procedures. It is thanks to the responsible attitudes of fertility clinics and fertility service providers to date that nothing untoward has happened in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI should say that we totally support the paragraph of the purposes clause that clarifies that the bill is intended to protect the \u201Csafety, dignity, and rights of all individuals, but particularly those of women and children, in the use of these procedures and research:\u201D. This is a very personal issue. The health risks of children born as a result of these procedures are generally higher than those of children associated with natural conception. I think it is timely that we have a bill that will bring some regulation to this whole area of reproduction. We must be very aware that all decisions made about the use of this technology, however, must reflect that children born through its use become adults, and decisions made today will impact on those children throughout their life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EIn talking in that regard, as a M\u0101ori I am very conscious of the importance of whakapapa in terms of children born under this process. That is one of the reasons why we give strong support to the Supplementary Order Paper promoted by Dr Hutchison. It will give some clarity to one\u2019s understanding of whom one is descended from. If that register is not available to offspring of this technology, then the question of whakapapa becomes diminished in terms of M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWhile I am talking about M\u0101ori, I mention that my colleague Judith Collins made reference in particular to clause 4(f), which states that \u201Cthe needs, values, and beliefs of M\u0101ori should be considered and treated with respect:\u201D. That was not the original wording promoted by the bill. I am glad that that particular paragraph is there instead of the original wording, which referred to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. But if I do have any criticism, it is that I think that clause 4(g)\u2014which states that \u201Cthe different ethical, spiritual, and cultural perspectives in society should be considered and treated with respect.\u201D\u2014could apply to everybody in New Zealand, not only non-M\u0101ori. There is an implication that it does not refer to M\u0101ori, and that M\u0101ori concerns are addressed in clause 4(f).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022674132e83ca44ea78437bfc22e80b778\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022674132e83ca44ea78437bfc22e80b778\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I thank those members who have already spoken on this bill, and thank them for their kind comments about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the importance of the principles clause, because, as Judy Turner has already mentioned, this bill to a large extent is about what it means to be human. Whatever we do in life, we are interfering with life and we are progressing life. We are now talking about technologies that are not available in nature\u2014whatever we call nature\u2014so we do have a responsibility to ensure that, whatever we do with this technology, we are responsible for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EIn relation to the principle of ensuring the health and well-being of children born from these technologies, I point out that we are particularly concerned about the safety and dignity of the present and future generations. I disagree with the Supplementary Order Paper from Paul Hutchison, who wants to do away with the stress on women in terms of these procedures, because many people are afraid of a \u201Crent-a-womb\u201D situation developing, and of commercialisation. That is not in this bill, but they are afraid that it may occur in some future time, and Judy Turner has pointed that out. I remind people that a survey in Australia pointed out that the gestational parent was very much of concern, because although we are talking about test-tube babies or in vitro babies whose conception occurs in a glass dish, there is still that wonderful thing called a mother, which in technology is now called\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8b4e14ec0944613a615d3f67b38f139\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: What about a father?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc0d8e28e3ae4509b3cbedd1cd808282\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES\u003C/span\u003E: I am just pointing that out. The gestational parent spends 9 months bringing a child into the world, and I am concerned that the research in Australia showed that there was greater emphasis on the gestational parent, as well as the father who had contributed to the genetic make-up of the child. That is why the Health Committee discussed for a very long time the inclusion of the word \u201Cwomen\u201D in this clause, and that is why I am not very keen on Dr Hutchison\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EIt is a very, very important principle that we have informed consent throughout reproductive processes, and also that, as has been pointed out by the New Zealand First speaker, children are aware of their genetic origins. I point out that the register is part of the bill. Dr Hutchison\u2019s amendment is talking about those who have donated gametes in the past. I can assure New Zealand First that the register of donors is in the substantive bill, and the member\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper refers to those who have donated in the past who may wish to volunteer information about themselves for the records.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAnther point that Dr Hutchison has put forward is to omit the reference to the beliefs of M\u0101ori. That issue, too, was discussed in great length by the select committee. The committee decided to leave it in, as well as the reference to different ethical, spiritual, and cultural perspectives. I stress to the Committee that the principles in the bill were discussed at great length by the select committee, and I think the member\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper is not really acceptable in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022968b0e3a69894d7f9cce48662044ae46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022968b0e3a69894d7f9cce48662044ae46\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I start by paying a tribute to the last speaker, Dianne Yates, for introducing this bill. I am sure that without Dianne Yates\u2019 bill we would still not be in a position to put in place legislation around this incredibly important and highly contentious area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is very sad that Dianne Yates\u2019 original bill has been gutted to the extent that it has. I am quite sure that Dianne Yates herself feels very sad about the extent to which the bill has been gutted. If anyone wonders about the extent to which it has been gutted, he or she need only look at the pages of the original bill; it would have set up an institution to oversee the whole area, and it would have had licences and very clear conditions. It was very, very explicit. Unfortunately, all of those very excellent provisions that were in Dianne Yates\u2019 original bill have, as I said, been gutted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ETragically, we are left with a bill that has very, very excellent intentions that we strongly support, but, regrettably, sets up one of the weakest, most permissive regulatory regimes for assisted human reproductive technology in the Western World. Indeed, I would argue that we could question whether the purpose of the legislation is being adhered to in the remainder of the bill. The purpose provision states that the purpose of the legislation is to regulate the use of human embryos by artificial means, and so on and so forth, but in truth there is no regulation\u2014astonishingly\u2014proposed in the bill. Instead, the whole bill relies on guidelines, which do not have the legal force of law, and which can be so vaguely worded that are very, very difficult to enforce. The guidelines will be drawn up by an unelected and unaccountable ministerial advisory committee, which will have the task of approving controversial technologies without any parliamentary scrutiny. That is extraordinary. Fortunately, there will be some consultation, but, ultimately, we are giving an unelected and unaccountable advisory committee unprecedented and virtually unlimited powers to determine policies about reproductive technologies in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIn so doing, this bill is breaching the well-established parliamentary principle that matters of policy and substance should be dealt with by Parliament. It is a well-established convention that policy should not be delegated beyond Parliament to technical committees, but here we are giving an unelected and unaccountable advisory committee the ability to set guidelines that, in effect, set policy in this most highly contentious, highly controversial area. If Parliament does not have some greater say in this sort of area, one wonders what its purpose is. As one submitter said, Dr Frankenstein would have found that the regulatory regime proposed in this bill\u2014or, rather, the lack of it\u2014gave him ample opportunity to argue for the creation of his monster. A submitter made that observation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is tragic that we have ended up with a bill without any regulation. The Greens will be putting up an amendment to give the guidelines the force of regulation. It is a mystery to me why the Government is so implacably opposed to having regulation of this important and highly contentious area. Canada has just passed some legislation that has regulations and a mechanism to enable new regulations to go through Parliament, to be debated in Parliament, and to be sent to its equivalent of our Health Committee. England has a licensing regime, and so on and so forth. It is a mystery to me why our Government and the officials are absolutely hell-bent on having no regulation whatsoever. I have never understood what the reason for that is. A previous speaker said we might have to revisit this bill. I believe that she is correct. I believe that we will revisit it because of the lack of regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5ab18aad9c2432cb462e563c131cde7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5ab18aad9c2432cb462e563c131cde7\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I was slightly reassured by the previous speaker, Sue Kedgley for the Greens, on this Human Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill by something that I am sure she did not intend, when she described the officials as having been hell-bent against regulation. That is not what I have discerned from reading the bill. I speak for myself and for a number of my colleagues. I cannot say that I speak for the ACT party, because we are divided on this bill. When I look at the bill, I see that it is a sickening exhibit of sentimentality. It is a typical example of the kind of\u2014I know that I am not allowed to use the word \u201Chypocrisy\u201D in relation to members of this House\u2014the hypocrisy that is exhibited by the establishment when it has a dreadful social problem and, instead of addressing it, decides to focus on a trivial and an almost non-existent problem as a smokescreen. What we have here is a whole lot of pious cant about the dignity and rights of individuals, about the protection of health, safety, and welfare, about the importance of knowing one\u2019s genetic origins, about the importance of regulating unacceptable behaviour, about dealing with nasty commerce and donated cells, and about informing people of their genetic origins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThat cant comes from a Parliament that not only tolerates but facilitates thousands of births every year of kids who will never know their fathers\u2014kids who have natural fathers they will never know, because our welfare system is determined to sponsor single-parent families without responsibility. This Parliament is running a welfare system that does not mind that kids are being born every day with foetal alcohol syndrome to entirely unsuitable women\u2014to people who would never have children if, in fact, the normal social sanctions were applied when they were irresponsible. This is a Parliament that has presided over introducing a legal system that means that thousands of babies are born who will never know their father. The normal social sanctions are the sorts of regimes that apply in most societies whereby people do not bear children until they can take care of them and until they know that they are able to give them education, a stable home life, and grandparents\u2014all the things that those of us who have been blessed with that kind of upbringing take for granted, and that we now, in all sincerity, have abandoned for a good chunk of our population. By taking from families that are working, and by structuring a welfare system that gives funding to children to have children, we are providing for all the things in our welfare system that this legislation suddenly states are utterly unacceptable where there is assisted reproduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI listened to the members who spoke so piously in favour of this bill talk about the importance of the embryo. They are scared of Frankenstein\u2019s monster. One would think that it is unlikely that any parent involved in an assisted reproduction process will not be very anxious. It is highly unlikely that there will be a single woman or man involved in the process who will not have the utmost anxiety about the best interests of the child that is produced. These will be the most wanted children in New Zealand. These will be children who do not need any official to look after them, these baby children around whom risks are taken. It may be that experimental procedures are invoked, but what is the risk of those kinds of experiments where the medical profession has its hands deep in them, compared with the risk to the number of children who are conceived in a drunken or drug-induced passion? Kids are being born when conception was a complete blur and the entire pregnancy has been chemically affected. What does the Government do about that? It pays for it. It says that there is no consequence as a result of doing that. There is not even a power to intervene. Yet this House, in a great rush of sickly sentiment, is saying we should spend time on supervising these births.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00225299228687444e83916b717ad6d12f38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225299228687444e83916b717ad6d12f38\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022 data-id=\u00226994b5c6168e48368b8cbb3061864a95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226994b5c6168e48368b8cbb3061864a95\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E There are groups in society who for one reason or another are not able to have children. In clause 3, among the purposes provided, it is explained that the bill is: \u201C(d) to provide a robust and flexible framework for regulating and guiding the performance of assisted reproductive procedures and the conduct of human reproductive research:\u201D. Having said that, I say that technology has moved ahead but it has to be better. It needs to be precise, especially when we are dealing with life. Technology is more stringent than it was before, and research gives an assurance of protection. There is also the direction and guidance in the bill to privacy and areas that are sensitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EThere will be areas of dissatisfaction. To various ethnic groups this technology will be a no-no, because of their beliefs and spiritual backgrounds. As mentioned by previous speakers, genealogy or whakapapa links are important, and will be a concern for M\u0101ori and Pacific Island groups. By way of explanation from a M\u0101ori perspective, I tell members that historically the perpetuation of the family and blood lines was a very important event. When a child was born the placenta was kept and buried in the area where that child came from. The pito or umbilical cord symbolically tied that child to its tribe, its wh\u0101nau, its hap\u016B, and the land it inherited. I do not know whether those concerned ever looked at that, for it is where disputes could start because of that spiritual belief\u2014the perpetuation of family and its link, in this case for M\u0101ori and I think for most Pacific Island people, to their land. That has always been historically important, and still is today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EMy presentation on this bill will be brief but I would like to ensure that those things are taken into consideration, because life to all of us in this House, and to those outside its boundaries, is sacred. It must be treated as such. If not, this technology and all the regulations and laws that go with it can go out the window. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EFirst on the priority list of this House is to consider how people look at this legislation and at the sanctity that is brought into the family. Without that sanctity and respect for life, and the sacredness in which most people hold life, the legislation cannot be considered. However, New Zealand First at this stage supports the bill but the bill has to be stringent. The protection of the child conceived, and of the parents, has to be taken care of. There is no doubt that when the child is born it will be treated as any other ordinary person, and that it will have its parents\u2019 love, kindness, respect, and care. That is paramount, and it must be. If parents are not prepared, as the previous ACT speaker said, to take care of the child, where do we go to from here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EI admire the tenacity with which Dianne Yates has presented the bill, but all these things have to be taken into consideration, as well as the Supplementary Order Paper of Dr Hutchison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00228d2561ba75c14a81a418023050799eb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d2561ba75c14a81a418023050799eb5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E The importance of this bill to the House is perhaps underestimated. I do not share the view of the ACT party that the bill is to do with the welfare system. It is to do with much more complex issues than that, in many ways. The reason why this is important is that under this structure, as set out in Part 1, it is really the only time\u2014and could be the only time for many years, actually\u2014that Parliament has an opportunity to discuss what it regards as the bottom lines that will apply to human-assisted reproductive technology. That is of some concern to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EPart 1 sets out the objectives of the bill\u2014the robust and flexible framework. One word that does not appear anywhere in there is \u201Caccountable\u201D. We have the mechanism of the advisory committees and ethics committees that are advisory to the Minister, but I just want to reflect on a number of years spent in this Parliament trying to get at such committees. In fact, members may be interested to know that it is fairly difficult for the Minister to get at such committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWhen I was Minister of Health there was a committee of some name with a similar function\u2014I cannot recall the name\u2014making decisions that in my view were ground-breaking in the science that was put to them. As the Minister who appointed the advisory committee, I was greatly anxious about what would happen if the committee made decisions that I believed were wrong\u2014were against the public interest and outside the scope of what Parliament would accept. As it turned out in those cases, the advisory committee made decisions that I believed were right. In my view they made the correct call, consistent with the public interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EBut there is no guarantee of that, and this is the only chance that I, as a member of Parliament, will have to set the bottom lines that those committees have to act within\u2014which puts an unfortunate burden on the list of banned procedures. Quite frankly, I would like the list to be an awful lot longer than it is. Unless that is the case, I will not get the chance to come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI know that the members of an advisory committee will not have to face the same scrutiny as a ministry. I know that any ministerial interference with that process will be regarded as a breach of good faith, because that is what was threatened when I sought advice about what role I might take as Minister of Health in those decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo that is where I believe there is something missing from Part 1\u2014the clarity of the accountability mechanism. The purposes and the principles in the bill are sufficiently general that committees could be able\u2014I am not saying they will be able\u2014to make decisions that from a public policy point of view a future Parliament would like to challenge. There is no direct or effective way of doing that. It may require Parliament to bring in legislation at some urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EAgain, the bill forces that process. It forces a confrontational process with Parliament, because Parliament is not able to exercise the kind of ongoing accountability and public policy guidance that those committees might need. So I think that that is a concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI have also been concerned, on looking through the principles, about the way the Health Committee has downgraded the paramountcy principle in respect of the welfare of children. This bill is not about children only. I have almost more concern now about the alleged therapeutic benefits of a lot of this research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb71cfb059be4800bc83dafaaad1aab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb71cfb059be4800bc83dafaaad1aab3\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that I agree with every utterance of the previous speaker, Bill English, and I wish that he had been sitting on the Health Committee. Regrettably, it was his colleagues sitting on our committee, along with others, who were so implacably opposed to any mechanism being introduced to make that unelected and unaccountable advisory committee have some accountability to Parliament. I would like to assure the Hon Bill English that the Green Party did try very hard to introduce some mechanism that would enable Parliament to have some scrutiny over the decisions\u2014the so-called guidelines but in fact the policy decisions\u2014of the advisory committee. We failed because of the opposition of his party and others, but we will be bringing these amendments here, and he will have an opportunity to vote for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe will be putting up two amendments. The first amendment gives the guidelines the force of regulation, so that at least they will be regulations and will have to go to the Regulations Review Committee, whereas at the moment they are just \u201Cwiffly waffly\u201D guidelines. I do not know where guidelines go\u2014perhaps to the Minister? They certainly do not have parliamentary scrutiny. Secondly, we have an amendment that would propose our doing what the Canadian system does, which is to state that the guidelines\u2014or the regulations as we hope they will become\u2014will have the mechanism to be able to go before Parliament, and to be debated and sent to the Health Committee. If the Minister chooses to ignore the recommendations of that committee, the Minister would have to give very good reason for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESo I think that Mr English has made some extremely good points, because the fact is that Parliament basically has no role in this extraordinarily important and controversial area, once we have set up this bill. All this bill does is set up a very broad umbrella. It sets up some very fine purposes and principles, but then does not even give them the force of regulation. It then essentially hands the entire thing, lock, stock, and barrel, to this unelected and unaccountable committee. It does not provide for any mechanism for Parliament to debate those bottom lines, as Mr English put it, and to look at those, or to have scrutiny over some of the ground-breaking decisions that advisory committees will no doubt be making. As Mr English has pointed out, it is extremely worrying that those committees are effectively a law unto themselves. So what we are doing in this bill is giving the ability to decide on the future of the human race, with respect to New Zealand, to that unelected, unaccountable committee that will essentially be a law unto itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe member from ACT was scornful about why we should be interfering in these things. Frankly, most of society agrees that in this bill we are debating a very profound aspect of what it is to be human. I presume the member from ACT would be happy to have cloning, and happy to have genetic engineering of humans, which is what he seemed to be implying. Well, I can assure the Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6102a58e71642c5afecd0017464f992\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e510b3bd8e244b5b07457fb45d659d0\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The trouble is, as the member from ACT may be aware, there has been a tremendous failure in efforts to clone and genetically engineer animals. There have been hundreds and hundreds of attempts, and hundreds of animals are born with severe abnormalities before scientists clone successfully. Is that the sort of thing he would advocate? I think that maybe he needs to do a bit more reading about genetic engineering and cloning in order to understand the huge risks there are in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI want to point out to Mr English and others, who fortunately share my concerns about the total lack of accountability in this bill, that there are some amendments on the Table they can support. Hopefully, Mr English might be able to persuade his colleague Dr Hutchinson and others that in fact the incredibly lax system that we have introduced does, as Simon Power said, leave it up to the market\u2014the market will decide. That is basically what this bill is doing, and I hope that that member, over the dinner break, might prevail upon some of his colleagues to support the proposal by the Green Party to introduce accountability and regulations into the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u002235cf28e61cb846a68aaf90f6fbccd075\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235cf28e61cb846a68aaf90f6fbccd075\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a brief call on Part 1 to explain my other amendment to clause 6. But in starting, I want to disagree with my colleague Sue Kedgley on one matter. I did not find the officials a brick wall. I think that any brick wall they had to stand behind was one created by Cabinet. I actually found the officials to be extremely helpful. At times I felt like a bit of a fly in the ointment to the process, but I always found them very gracious and I thank them for the way they worked with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI would also like to commend the Hon Bill English for his contribution. I think he absolutely hit the nail on the head regarding my position, in that this is the one and only chance that will be offered to us as elected representatives to have a say in the way the direction of this technology will go. I find that scary, and the fact that the word accountability, or the fact that the understanding of what it means to be accountable to this House, is lost in this process worries me a huge amount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThat is why I proposed an amendment to clause 6, so that treatments that were to be declared established procedures had final scrutiny by Parliament. Of course, once something is considered an established procedure, as long as the practitioners administering the procedure are qualified, they no longer require any further ethics committee approval because the procedure is set in place. But before we allow a procedure to hit that final category, I think it would be hugely important for this House to be re-engaged with the final recommendation. I understand that the best way for that to happen is for the Regulations Review Committee to look at what is being proposed, and so that is what my amendment seeks to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe huge difference between guidelines and regulations, I guess, is the area that worries me the most. When we read the Canadian legislation, which is strongly regulatory, we see that what is allowed and what will happen is extremely clear, clause-by-clause. There are no grey areas: one is very clear, as one reads it, what is to be expected. That is the power of regulation. I understand that regulation in some areas of life can be onerous, can shut down a positive move forward in some directions, and can slow processes down unnecessarily. But in this particular situation, regulations would give effective clarification and, certainly, the work of the Regulations Review Committee to check what is being proposed is an extremely fortuitous function of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EMy amendment, then, to clause 6 would require a check to be made by the Regulations Review Committee before Orders in Council were made on established procedures. The select committee would then report on how it found the guidelines and procedures that were being touted as established procedures, and would give us a sense of what was going on. That is the proposal I have for clause 6. I will leave it at that, but I really encourage members to consider supporting that check.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00226526e0d039ec4ea183a77d3f2989da2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226526e0d039ec4ea183a77d3f2989da2d\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to further address Part 1 of the Human Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill. As I indicated, the ACT party will split its vote on this. We have two members who believe that the bill is defective but still worth supporting, and we have six members who believe that it is a classic example of the errors of legislating when no mischief has been identified. Usually we pass law when we find that something wrong is being done or threatened. People cannot even identify what it is they are scared of in this case. The mischief may be bad outcomes, but if people wanted to look at bad outcomes and were really worried about kids being born with genetic disadvantages, why are they not worried about kids who are born to smoking mothers? Why are they not doing something about kids born with lifelong disabilities as a result of alcohol consumption during the critical period after conception? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have just heard arguments that this is the one and only chance for Parliament to look at the issue. Parliament will look at this every year\u2014because it is sexy, because it gets headlines, and because politicians looking anxious and concerned can intervene in this area with no practical consequences. What we have here is an idea that Parliament\u2019s wisdom will exceed that of the anxious, would-be parents, the concerned doctors, and the professionals who would like to deal with disease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EA very good example of how pitiful a parliamentary attempt to deal with this issue is, is my layman\u2019s look at the definitions in Part 1. As I read them, they do not do anything about genetic engineering, even though half the speeches have been about that. It is not prohibited by this bill. The bill states that it deals with embryos and gametes at the cellular level, and with fusing cells. It does not even deal with introducing specific genes or modifying specific genes, as long as a hybrid is not created. Am I right? I would be very interested to know whether the member in the chair, Dianne Yates, can advise on this matter. I have looked at the schedules, and I think this is a classic example of a pathetic group of politicians deciding to intervene in a very big public splash and not realising that the legislation does not even address the issues they are making most of their slogans about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt does not deal with modified embryos. It does not deal with genetic experimentation. It does not deal\u2014nor should it\u2014with an attempt, for example, to introduce extra genes into the reproductive mechanism to cope with some desperate inherited disease. I just hope that by raising the pathetic inadequacy of this bill I do not find a member suddenly rushing through an amendment to try to block even that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill scratches a political itch\u2014a desire to be seen to be publicly upholding someone\u2019s cultural values. In clause 4, \u201CPrinciples\u201D, paragraph (f) directs that \u201Cthe needs, values, and beliefs of M\u0101ori should be considered and treated with respect:\u201D. Of course\u2014but what does that mean? This is slogan law. How much respect? Does it override the rights of everyone else, even if some M\u0101ori decide they do not like any kind of interference with the course of nature, however red in tooth and claw nature may be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThen I see that someone decided that that provision looked a little bit racist, so the next provision was stuck in: \u201Cthe different ethical, spiritual, and cultural perspectives in society should be considered and treated with respect.\u201D How respectfully, at the moment, are we treating the 30-odd percent of New Zealanders who are Catholic, when we openly have the Abortion Supervisory Committee admitting that we have abortion on demand? Catholics think that that is murder. I do not, but they think it is murder. The law treats abortion on demand as highly illegal, yet the House connives, year after year, at 18,000 or 20,000 embryos being destroyed, a great affront to those Catholics and in breach of the law, and we do nothing. Instead we pass drivel law like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecaf1eed4f3445b0aeb6315034323189\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecaf1eed4f3445b0aeb6315034323189\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E It does seem odd that Mr Franks might agree with the regulation of lawyers but not with the regulation of the production of humans, because that is what the bill is about. If anything, Parliament\u2019s interest in the issue is to do with the fact that a growing proportion of human assisted reproductive technology is publicly funded, and Parliament should always be interested in the ethical use of public funds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI signal some concern about the way Part 1 is structured. It does not really cover research, which will be important in our consideration of Part 2. A fair bit of the focus of the principles and purposes of the bill is to do with the benefits of assisted reproductive procedures. There is a strong focus on reproductive procedures\u2014in particular, on those of women and children\u2014and the use of those procedures in research. Of course, a growing proportion of the activity is in research for its own sake. It is for the production of human tissue for the purposes of research, not for the purposes of reproduction. Substantial numbers of embryos can be created without any intent to use them in reproduction. According to the rules here, scientists can do whatever they want to with the human tissue created in the first 10 days, fully intending to destroy or not progress the tissue beyond that 10 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI am concerned that the principles in clause 4 are laid out as if it is all about offspring and babies being born. I would be interested if the member could tell me a bit more about that, because the more I have thought about it the more I think Parliament\u2019s concern should focus on the scope and direction of research. A lot of the issues around reproduction are not new. Mr Franks might think Parliament deals with this issue regularly because it is sexy, but it has actually taken years to get to this stage. Having some legislation is certainly better than having none, but in that time, committees have dealt with a lot of the issues to do with reproduction. In my view, what lies ahead of us are much greater challenges to do with the issue of the research carried out on embryos, however one wants to define their existence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EPart 1 seems, to me, to be sadly lacking in that respect. It provides a useful framework for coming to decisions about established procedures\u2014that is, the things that have been going on\u2014and it is quite a useful device, but it is not a very useful framework for dealing with what might happen next. While some feel very confident that scientific research will follow paths that most people are happy with, others of us do not share that confidence. There is no reason to believe that that will automatically be the case. In my view, the purpose and principles are weak in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI particularly want to look at how the select committee dealt with the paramount issue, the welfare of the child. There is, I suppose, a sensible scientific view about risk. Those procedures are risky. In fact, from a natural point of view, they are hugely inefficient and wasteful procedures. An enormous amount of production goes on, and a very small number of offspring come out the other end. I know those efficiency rates are increasing somewhat. We know very little about why so many in vitro fertilisations fail. I suspect that it is because the process is much more open to genetic mistakes, and that is one reason why a lot of the gametes produced do not survive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E So it is a hugely risky process. But I do not like that sense of risk about the scientific procedure being seen as some kind of qualification on how we should see the risk to the offspring. While we know the procedures themselves are risky, I am disappointed to see that the committee came to the conclusion that the health and well-being of the children born should not be paramount, but should only be an important consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6975fb7b58e4c3c877fc3dee9a44882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6975fb7b58e4c3c877fc3dee9a44882\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of clauses to vote on in Part 1\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022821ff956cdcb4b728998219fed717e53\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Just as a point of clarification, I have checked this with the Deputy Leader of the House, but I want to make sure that from where you are sitting, the leave sought to allow votes to be split is confirmed from the second reading through to the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd2d6968a264310976c216a4244a065\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member for that, and I do have it in front of me. Leave was given, and it was agreed that, notwithstanding Standing Order 144(1)(b), the party votes cast by a party on the Human Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill include numbers cast for the Ayes and the Noes, and recorded abstentions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to clause 3 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003Eto delete from paragraph (a), after the word \u201Cindividual\u201D, the words \u201Cbut particularly those of women and children\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cwomen, men, and children\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d08c264f85d482fbdff1cbf70820d07\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 25\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 95\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 5; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000494\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to clause 4 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000495\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (f).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c00e044c703444bb985792d2154ad707\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 31\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22; ACT New Zealand 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 89\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 5; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000496\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to insert a definition of \u201CCustoms officer\u201D in clause 5 be agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000497\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000498\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 268 in the name of Judy Turner to the definition of \u201Cembryo\u201D in clause 5 be agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a99c2406cb604a09988fc3f04f01391e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 1; United Future 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 1; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000499\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 268 in the name of Judy Turner to add new subclauses (4) and (5) to clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228eb9a10f28224c4d91af775809c4aaff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 1; Green Party 9; United Future 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; Progressive 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022810d1137140a4f119a63386fde95caef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 2; United Future 3; Progressive 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 5; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d994891d1d6a4cbaaae60c9c2a613214\u0022\u003EPart 2  Prohibited and regulated activities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00224d326f49ff644bff8b131de41e93f3fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d326f49ff644bff8b131de41e93f3fe\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is that Part 2, clauses 8 to 41 and including debate on schedule 1, stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00220c4f5606549b48ab91a0d8be89a9e565\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c4f5606549b48ab91a0d8be89a9e565\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 has some of the most important aspects of this bill. Not only does it deal with the area of prohibited and regulated activities, it also deals with the very important ministerial advisory committee and the ethics committee. Mr Chairperson, might I say at this stage that it would be helpful, because of the wideness of this part, to be able to have multiple calls, if at all possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI start by once again making the point that there have been no specific regulations governing this area of reproductive technology in New Zealand, but there have been a variety of bills. Over the last 20 to 30 years the newer reproductive technologies have become much more prominent, and, at the same time, the ability to adopt children has become almost negligible in New Zealand. Consequently, there are significant numbers of men and women in New Zealand who, more and more, wish to take advantage of those technologies. To suggest there is no harm is absolutely inappropriate. But it is important to realise there is such a spectrum of procedures available. There are not just complicated ones like in vitro fertilisation. It varies from simply allowing the environment of the female genital tract to be marginally changed to allow conception to occur, to much more complicated procedures that carry with them excessive harm. We have had cases in New Zealand of mortality occurring from ovulation stimulation associated with in vitro fertilisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESo there are indeed examples in this country of mortality. If one goes through the list in schedule 1, for instance, one can see the prohibition on cloning embryos. We in this country know from animal reproduction, and from the work done with Dolly the sheep in Britain, that there are higher morbidity, mortality, and ageing problems associated with cloned animals. There is no doubt that at this stage of events it would be unwise to embark on those procedures with humans. It is right and proper that there is such a list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI also point out that clause 8 in schedule 1 includes a prohibition against implanting into a human being a genetically modified gamete, human embryo, or hybrid embryo. Undoubtedly, there are provisions throughout this bill that deal with the area of genetic modification, and that is absolutely right and proper. However, this bill does not deal with the area of stem cell research. It will be addressed through the Human Tissue Act, but, once again, it is highly contentious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe note that so many areas in the bill have a wide polarity of view about them. We are seeing right now the tremendous debate in the United States on stem cell research. On the one hand, President Bush has banned it except in very restricted circumstances, and, on the other hand, the presidential contender, Kerry, has promised $100 million of extra funding into stem cell research. There is no doubt that the spectrum of technologies involved engender with them a great polarity of view. That is why it has been so important to reach a practical balance. On the one hand, there are simple procedures for which it would be totally inappropriate to bring in amendments through Parliament every time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6bef1ea72554d10a4f02a1c90d3e1a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6bef1ea72554d10a4f02a1c90d3e1a6\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Just as a point of clarification, my colleague Dr Paul Hutchison indicated at the start of his contribution that he was keen to make more than one contribution to this part of the debate. In the first part of the Committee stage, the Government senior whip moved a closure motion. I seek your advice, Mr Chairperson, in respect of the convention. I believe that during a members\u2019 day the matter is very much in members\u2019 hands as to when a part in a debate comes to a conclusion. I would be interested in what the Deputy Leader of the House has to say. I just want to confirm with you that we will not be engaged in a time-based closure motion situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022780715af27f942cfa9f99bd106eaa0d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022780715af27f942cfa9f99bd106eaa0d1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member for drawing that to my attention. He will note that the senior whip has not put any more closure motions. In reality, the position is that it is in the hands of the chair of the Committee as to when a closure motion is accepted. He will also know that last time the speakers were given a good hearing, and I think it went very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9a264d6814247cab470c3f9d0ff2d95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9a264d6814247cab470c3f9d0ff2d95\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. In the spirit of good communication, I can assure the member that, subject to the normal ability of any member to seek a closure motion if he or she feels the debate is deteriorating and to seek the decision of the chair, I do not think Government members are in any hurry to curtail this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0678aea7ae14ad1aa4dfad98a6e6bd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0678aea7ae14ad1aa4dfad98a6e6bd2\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 and schedule 1 deal with some of the concerns I have heard people express in this Chamber. Schedule 1 clearly delineates those prohibited activities that will not be allowed to take place in New Zealand without resulting in 2 years\u2019 imprisonment or a $200,000 fine. There are quite hefty penalties for anybody who attempts to break the law in respect of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ESome of the things we are debating tonight have to do with philosophy. The issues in this bill come back to the understanding of when life begins, to the whole concept from the past of test-tube babies, and to where we go in allowing the level of human assisted reproductive technology to develop in this country. The areas in schedule 1 that are prohibited are very clearly delineated. There was discussion on what would be an accepted activity, and about how new technologies being developed would be allowed on to the accepted activity list. Concerns were expressed about how Parliament would have scrutiny over new developments that there is doubt about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EClause 10 refers to the ethics committee and states that human in vitro embryos can be kept for only 10 years. I think clause 10 gives us a really good example of how an ethics committee would work. It states that a gamete or embryo can be kept for a period of only 10 years, and that it would then be up to the ethics committee to make a decision whether to approve any longer period. Let us imagine a child of 13 who finds that she has ovarian cancer and who wants her eggs to be kept and stored. At the end of 10 years she would be only 23. That person may not have found a permanent partner in life and may not want to have a child at that time, so she would ask for ethics committee approval for the 10-year period to be extended. If she did not know about that time period, and the end of the 10-year period was coming up in a couple of months, there would have to be a fairly speedy process. We could not have a 2-year process for approval, because those eggs would be destroyed and that would be the end of her chance ever to have children. So we do need a process that can respond to such a situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022571b108384ef417db42f1a34f1ca8084\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: Before the dinner break we were talking about the role of the ethics committee as well as the role of the ministerial advisory committee, as set out in Part 2. We are also considering schedule 1\u2014\u201CProhibited Actions\u201D. There are nine points clearly set out in this schedule, which state that artificially forming for reproductive purposes a hybrid embryo, implanting a cloned embryo, implanting an animal gamete or embryo into a human, and so on, are all prohibited. This legislation will have the power to give surety in these areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAnother issue that was debated, and that will be restricted, is the sex selection of human embryos. A sex-linked genetic defect is a defence against the charge of breaking clause 11, which states the restrictions on sex selection of human embryos. So people cannot say that they want a girl or a boy and have an embryo selected on that basis. However, if there is a genetic disorder or disease that is passed on because of the sex of the child, then a child\u2019s sex can be selected for that reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThere will be only one ethics committee and that is appropriate because this is a very highly specialised area and there should be only one agency. The advisory committee, about which the Green Party has stated its concerns, will have eight to 12 members. They will be looking at the issues of donations of embryos, embryo splitting, gametes derived from dead people, informed consent, pre-implantation genetic analysis\u2014that is, examining what the genetic code of an embryo may be before it is implanted, to ensure that it does not have defects\u2014and importation and exportation of in vitro donated cells. When we start looking at some of these issues, we begin to realise the complexity of the issue that we have been debating. For example, if people who immigrate to this country have frozen embryos in another country, there has to be provision for them to be able to bring in those embryos if they want implantation at a later date. There may be a situation where a man has donated sperm and he still lives in a different country. If a woman has one child through the process of using the donated sperm and she may want to have another child with that same genetic inheritance, there has to be a way to be able to import or export in vitro donated cells. Gametes derived from someone who has died brought up a very interesting case in Britain where a woman wanted to use the sperm cells from her husband, who had been killed in an accident, to create a child. That was a hard-fought legal case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThese are all interesting ethical and procedural matters that the ministerial advisory committee will have to look at. They often arise from one specific case that may end up before the courts, and then worldwide attention is focused on that particular case to look at the moral and ethical dilemmas that are brought about by such a case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe other thing we must remember about this bill is that although it has a certain jurisdiction, we also have the hazardous substances and new organisms legislation and the Medicines Act. The legislation overlaps to some degree concerning the use of therapies, such as somatic cell gene therapy and embryonic stem cell therapy used in genetic modification. There is an overlap that is somewhat different from that of other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI turn to the status of the advisory committees. It will be an offence to go outside the guidelines. We heard the Hon Bill English\u2019s concerns about the advisory committee and the Minister. The Minister is an elected representative of the country, who has been appointed to be in charge of health. He or she will have the responsibility, as an elected official, to look at the advice given by the ministerial advisory committee. It is a committee appointed by that Minister, or maybe by a former Minister. If there are concerns, then the Minister should seek further advice, either from the public to have a debate on these issues, or from the Ministry of Health. The Minister could even ask the select committee for an inquiry, or the legislation could be changed if he or she is unhappy with what may have happened, or have been proposed. The Minister of Health will be the person who will make those changes. It will be that person\u2019s responsibility to decide what will change from being experimental to becoming a recognised procedure. Look back to the cloning of Dolly the sheep. When that occurred, around the world there was a call for legislation to try to prevent cloning, and that will happen with this legislation tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ca93d733fd148b9bf2bd18944bfb369\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Why support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd747e1a60042e8b34162c6a63716d8\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: I am supporting this bill because it gives a clear way to regulate against the sorts of things that very few people, in this country would want to see. They would not want to see cloning and they would not want to see the genetic engineering of babies\u2014they would not want to see that. But there needs to be a process whereby we can move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002235fbeaa1ee934506b37ccac006ebd6f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235fbeaa1ee934506b37ccac006ebd6f9\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I listened to that speech and thought it a very good example of the kind of well-meaning humbug we find so often when Parliament rushes to legislate in areas in which it understands nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221201f943e82c427b9b8e3f66155b2356\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: 8 long years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b7f86c43ca48cf99b49b13596e4c6f\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The rush was in introducing it. The reason it has not gone through is that parliamentarians, even though they would love to look busy in this area, realised that they do not have the faintest idea of what is happening. They do not know how to regulate this issue and do not know what the mischief is, but they still want to write rules. That is why it is a rush to legislate. The fact that they have not managed to get it through is slight evidence of a wee bit of humility, but no more\u2014a tiny bit of humility. In Part 2 of the Human Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill the establishment is saying that it really wants to make rules, although it has not got a clue why. Here we ban the commercial supply of embryos. We ban paid surrogacy. If this bill was covering\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228836ce08b5b547fd820fb18f75e1daa7\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Are you for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d06fc20ab14a44dd93c5034914169254\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I am absolutely in favour of paid surrogacy. A woman who goes through all of those months of pregnancy fully deserves to be paid for the time, the investment, the weariness, and all the other costs that relate to pregnancy. She should absolutely be paid for her surrogacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI cannot understand at all why New Zealanders should be prohibited from even seeing advertisements. What a fatuous bill! Under clause 15, the penalty will be 3 months in prison or a fine of $2,500, if someone\u2019s Internet site shows that somewhere in the world one might be paid to hold an embryo\u2014to be a mother for someone else. There have been wet nurses and nannies for generations, for centuries. In fact, the ruling classes have often wanted someone else to do all the hard work of child bearing. We now say that that is to be criminalised!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt will happen. New Zealanders will do it. They will go to the United States, China, or some Pacific Island country\u2014somewhere where someone will carry a child for them\u2014and they will pay the women handsomely. But this sanctimonious mob in this Parliament says: \u201COh no, we think that\u2019s awful. We\u2019ll ban that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI know why there is an ACT party in this Parliament: because we are not bound by political correctness. We are not too scared to say it like it is. We stand up and ask why this measure is being put through. Why is clause 11 putting a legal restriction on sex selection of human embryos? Who is to say that New Zealand people will not do that anyway? It could easily be that shortly we will know exactly what environments in the womb or the uterus favour male sperm. It could easily be that shortly this matter will be right out of the hands of the politicians, and the people will be able to decide. Then we will have the real decision\u2014the decision as to what we do if people consistently favour one gender over the other. We do not know which one it will be, but it is very likely that humans will work it out without the help of an all-wise, all-knowing, nanny Government. They will work out what to do if a sex imbalance emerges. We are watching that huge experiment happening in China right at this minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis Government says it will ban sex selection in New Zealand, but it knows that it cannot enforce that, and it knows that people will find excuses. It is interesting, as a lawyer, to consider the sorts of arguments that might be put to a court on exactly what is a genetic disorder or disease. There are many propensities that are gender related, and that people might argue they do not want their children to incur. I know, for example, that schizophrenia has a higher propensity in certain families than in others, and that it is gender related. Will that be an excuse? I suspect it will. I suspect that the unhappy, uncomfortable couple who are looking at a higher propensity to incur a certain disease will be able to walk around this restriction, in exactly the same way as people have walked around our anti-abortion law by pretending to find serious mental risk when they want to justify an abortion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis measure is an exercise in futility. It is an exercise in smugness and sanctimony.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc936e4a8c2f4f91a13ee70b834b7577\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc936e4a8c2f4f91a13ee70b834b7577\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I am not sure why Mr Franks is so exercised about this bill, because I think that\u2014[Interruption] Mr Franks is implying that this bill sets stringent regulations on these various issues. If he looks at the fine print he will find that it does no such thing\u2014that, in fact, some rather wiffly-waffly guidelines around these various things\u2014[Interruption] Mr Chairperson, I seek your protection. I am unable to hear myself think because of the shouting in my right ear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e814d6cfad214d60b264df642b983bdc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I will protect the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225613258c81404de1a08663ee4973b3c5\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that far from having strict regulation, we will have instead some wiffly-waffly guidelines that will set policy in far-reaching areas\u2014areas such as embryo splitting, and the derivation of gametes from deceased persons. We will actually have that unelected and unaccountable committee setting policy in areas that the ordinary New Zealander will have very, very strong views and feelings about. In fact, an unelected and unaccountable committee will be making those far-reaching decisions and setting guidelines\u2014guidelines that if existing guidelines are any indication, will be extremely vague. So Mr Franks need not be worried. I think that most people will find a way around those guidelines. I suspect that most of the guidelines will not even be enforceable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI want to mention that the Green Party has a couple of amendments to this part. One is to tighten up the rules around preimplantation genetic diagnosis, and to prevent it from being used to select embryos for reasons other than preventing serious genetic diseases or increasing the likelihood of implantation. We strongly support the use of embryo selection techniques, such as preimplantation genetic diagnosis, to help couples who carry genes for disorders such as Huntingdon\u2019s disease, cystic fibrosis, and so forth. But we are strongly opposed to the use of that particular technology for social or eugenic purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe problem is that in the way the bill is currently drafted, it could be used to allow people to select embryos for any other genetic characteristic except sex. Now, Mr Franks will not be worried about that, but I have an article here in which James Watson, a biologist who has been very involved in this area, stirred some controversy in the United States recently by saying that if a gene for homosexuality were discovered, a woman should be free to abort a foetus that carried it or to select such an embryo. That created something of an uproar, but the truth of the matter is that it would be left to that particular unelected and accountable committee to make far-reaching decisions such as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe National Ethics Committee on Assisted Human Reproduction put out some guidelines on preimplantation genetic diagnosis, and if anyone had concerns about the guidelines of the advisory committee, these guidelines from the ethics committee would enhance those concerns. They are not only extremely vague, but they set down few stipulations. They state: \u201CPreimplantation genetic diagnosis for conditions that are not covered here can be approved on a case-by-case basis.\u201D In other words, that committee is basically saying that it will be possible to use the technology to select desirable traits in off-spring and screen out undesirable traits, on a case-by-case basis\u2014so it leaves it wide open. With our amendment, therefore, we want to make it absolutely clear that embryo selection techniques such as those can be used only to prevent serious genetic diseases or disorders, and that they cannot be used to improve athletic performance, or whatever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI note that the United Kingdom has regulations around preimplantation genetic diagnosis, which once again, of course, are much, much tighter than ours. The UK allows only a very limited number of licensed clinics to use the technology, and then only for severe and life-threatening disorders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022 data-id=\u00224dafae2f061c4a96a4edfe9062257ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dafae2f061c4a96a4edfe9062257ebb\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First is happy to support Part 2. We especially support the list of prohibited actions in clause 8, which states in subclause (1): \u201CEvery person commits an offence who takes an action described in Schedule 1.\u201D Because of the great sensitivity here in relation to ethnic peoples, touching on the sanctity of birth and children, I speak on behalf of those people and say that this should be taken into consideration. New Zealand First is happy with the list of prohibited actions and supports it. We are pleased with the provisions that prohibit the genetic engineering of humans and the sex selection of embryos for any reason other than treating or preventing genetic disease. This is a sensitive topic. There are those of us who believe that a spirit of a person is chosen to be male or female even before it enters into this life. So we are very, very happy with the part of the bill that prohibits the genetic engineering of humans and the sex selection of embryos. This will be allowed only for treating or preventing genetic disease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E It is great to have a functions and ethics committee set out clearly. The committee will be held responsible for the activity allowed, for the laws and functions, and for the counsel and advice that might be given to the public. It holds a great responsibility towards the general public, towards humanity, and towards people who, through no fault of their own, are unable to have children of their own. They are people who are in a situation where they have to make serious decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EWe believe that the number of people on the advisory committee may be too large. Between eight and 12 members would, I think, be sufficient in terms of control and keeping track of this legislation. There should be a member of the ethics committee on the advisory committee by right. Too many lay persons on an advisory committee may have a detrimental effect, in terms of the expertise already there. It is great to have the advisory committee guidelines made public. Because of the seriousness, sensitivity, and importance of this legislation, the public and the people it affects need to be advised of what is actually happening. We welcome the strengthened provisions for public involvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EOther than that, when we look at the restrictions on sex selection of human embryos we notice that there is a penalty of up to 1 year\u2019s jail and a fine of $100,000, or both, for breaches in this area. With the seriousness of this issue, I think the penalties should be extended a bit more. There are many who may be able to afford the $100,000, or even look at spending 1 year in prison\u2014it would be all over with the flick of the fingers, and back to it again. Clause 11(2) states: \u201CEvery person commits an offence who contravenes this section and is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 1 year or a fine not exceeding $100,000, or both.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223c25d207aa34f4093968d040f2c13ae\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s the victim?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9909589c63f4b5e8843f555a9ce6b0e\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON\u003C/span\u003E: In this case, the people involved. They would not be victims because\u2014[Interruption] The member from ACT has had his say. They have made that choice. They have made the decision to be put in that situation, and they know the responsibilities that go with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022bffe1b3c857b439d86a2203b38ed2ab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bffe1b3c857b439d86a2203b38ed2ab5\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I to refer to comments made earlier by Mr Franks. He said that we do not need a framework, that society will work it out for itself, and that it will all come right in the wash. He cited the situation in China and said that although China now has a slight imbalance in its population due to sex selection, it will all clean up in the wash. When we look at the percentages in China, we see that the situation does not look too bad\u2014until we look at the real figures. In the next 10 years, I say to Mr Franks, China will have 30 million males. There will not be enough females to partner them. I do not quite know how that will come out in the wash. That is the current situation due to sex selection in China. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI want to talk about some of the amendments I have put forward to Part 2. The first is to clause 9. Clause 9 provides for the ability for an embryo to be developed for 14 days. A very interesting bit of wording that has slipped into the clause refers to the fact that in counting those 14 days we exclude any day during which the development of the embryo is suspended. I have asked officials about this, and they thought my concerns were unfounded. However, I have done the maths and I still cannot figure out how else this can work. Assuming that the technology is developed whereby we can suspend development, start it again, and then suspend it again\u2014and I am sure that at present no embryo could survive that repeated process, but we may yet develop the technology\u2014then that means an embryo could start developing for one, two, three, or four days, and then, say, on day five have its development suspended. But day five does not have to be counted, because it is the day the action was suspended. So even though the embryo is 5 days old, it is called a 4-day-old embryo. Then it can be thawed\u2014or whatever the process is\u2014and the counting started again. Its development can then be further suspended, but the day on which that occurs does not have to be counted. That means that an embryo that is officially 14 days old has actually been developed beyond 14 days because of the exclusion provision in this clause. I propose that we eliminate the bracketed words in paragraphs (a) and (b) of clause 9(4). That would mean that we count 14 real days and if development is suspended on a given day, that day is still counted as a full day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe next amendment I propose is to clause 11, \u201CRestrictions on sex selection of human embryos\u201D. It is a simple change to the heading of that clause about sex selection, so that we regulate sex selection using not just embryos but, of course, gametes, as we understand that sex selection can take place before an egg is fertilised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022772539c04c8b46c78294290bc2846e3d\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Ooh, you\u2019re on to that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e5818b905ed4594924eceb444787f1e\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: We want to make sure, if we are to have some regulation around this, that we cover the full extent of the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EClause 33 is another where I would like to see the ability for the advisory committee to include a representative from the Office of the Commissioner for Children, that representative to be on the committee specifically to make sure that the interests of offspring are fully explored on any given issue. I think it is important that children\u2019s interests are specifically attended to at that level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAlso, I would like new clause 35A, \u201CGuidelines to be referred to committee of the House of Representatives\u201D, to be inserted. This requires that guidelines from the ministerial advisory committee be referred back to Parliament for scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EDuring the debate on this part we have had some discussion on the \u201CPGD\u201D, or preimplantation genetic diagnosis, process. I want to bring up an interesting point. In New Zealand, in the middle of this debate on this legislation, it has been advertised that the Minister is calling for submissions from people who want to have their say on what sort of guidelines should be set for this process. Interested people have received letters, with some dates set as to when submissions close. The date is 12 November this year. However, it appears that the Minister has already made a decision on this matter and has announced it, I think, in the last day or so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002296663894145c4b128d44cfab21434ccb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296663894145c4b128d44cfab21434ccb\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E We have heard the arguments from Stephen Franks, who certainly would like to have no regulations and who states that there is almost no risk with these procedures. We have heard from a member at the other end of the spectrum, Sue Kedgley from the Greens, who would love to have far greater regulations and who also suggests there is an enormous degree of risk with most of these procedures. In the middle is Judy Turner, who wants the suspending of embryos to last for a microsecond within 14 days. They are all pretty impossible tasks, and they all demonstrate the need for flexibility within the mechanism we come up with to achieve a practical solution in dealing with this vast spectrum of human assisted reproductive technology. Once again I stress the fact that there is such a vast spectrum of it that it is impossible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3557eaec205469489f4539f93a42f61\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Stay out of it, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022403c17480d5746449dc024d9f0099aa2\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014to be able to generalise or make rigid rules either way. I hear Stephen Franks say we should stay out of it, but we just have to go to one specific area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E For instance, let us look at clause 13, \u201CCommercial supply of human embryos or human gametes prohibited\u201D. Undoubtedly in New Zealand there is a strong feeling that altruistic surrogacy and the altruistic supply of human embryos and gametes provide a hugely positive opportunity for those couples in need. But we know from the United States of America, where commercial surrogacy and commercial dealing in human tissues occurs, that some of the most awful distortions of human nature and results are imposed on the babies due to legal entanglements and fighting. We certainly would not want that sort of dealing to happen in New Zealand at this stage of events, or at least until we sort it out a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022117a43a36180430f8f9964db1867ad39\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220591c4e0b8e54715884db1bacfd36251\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that it would personally suit Mr Franks very well. It would keep him in business at high cost to the misery of potentially hundreds of thousands of people for a long, long time to come. There are much more important things to work out. Practically, it would be quite inappropriate, in my view, to have such dealing in a country where we do have altruistic donors who are willing, on an altruistic basis, to make it possible for people to take advantage of the technologies available. I think it was Sue Kedgley who said that there are no regulations, but here is a specific regulation that basically bans the commercial use of embryos, ovaries, and surrogacy, and, undoubtedly, that is right and proper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhen we look at clause 10, we see that human in vitro embryos and human in vitro gametes are not to be stored for more than 10 years. As my colleague Dr Lynda Scott pointed out, that is a hugely important provision. If, indeed, a young girl of 15 was diagnosed with cancer, then this may be her only opportunity to store her own gametes. She would be only 25 after 10 years\u2014much below the average age of conception these days in New Zealand\u2014but due to the flexibility of this bill, the ethics committee could allow her to have those gametes stored further. On the other hand, it is very important to have this under constant monitoring, because that same girl could have died. Who then owns the gametes, embryos, or whatever they are? Once again, we get into these enormous potential legal tangles. These are not simple matters, but it is important to work out some basic areas where we decide by consensus that there is sheer practicality for having these provisions, and I believe in clause 10 that is exactly what has happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EClause 11 talks about restrictions on sex selection of human embryos. Once again, this is an area where there is a possible defence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002242b23ea57c514e46960191487a09cdfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242b23ea57c514e46960191487a09cdfb\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The previous National Party speaker slightly mischaracterised my argument. I was not arguing that there should be no regulation; of course the normal constraints of the Hippocratic oath, \u201Cfirst do no harm\u201D, and all the other kinds of obligations on medical practitioners should apply. The idea that someone should be allowed to deliberately or quite cold-bloodedly sacrifice the interests of one patient for money is antithetical to that in any event. In this area, all the normal medical ethics would prevail. There is no reason to consider that they are excluded. However, the member talked about enormous complexities and legal problems. We simply do not know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EParliament is imagining a host of menaces and Frankenstenian monsters, and deciding in advance what powers it will confer on a group of doctors. They will kick for touch because they are already battered by legal risks. They will make sure New Zealand is not at the forefront of any of this. New Zealanders who are rich will be fine. New Zealanders with the money will be able to go off shore, just as Irish women had to go off shore to get around the Catholic Church - inspired ban on contraceptives\u2014in fact, as New Zealanders used to have to go off shore for abortions. Wealthy people will not be hurt by this. This will hurt ordinary hard-working people who cannot afford to go to countries that do not have a bunch of politicians who are quite so sanctimonious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the provisions that were mentioned, for example, clause 13, \u201CCommercial supply of human embryos or human gametes prohibited\u201D, I see there is no reason why people would cease to be altruistic simply because others might advertise and be willing to pay for the inconvenience, embarrassment, and risk, particularly now that this bill goes on to require that there be disclosure. Now we cannot have anonymous donors, although we can still have entirely anonymous fathers\u2014I think we have 15,000 of them every year through the welfare system, where there is no requirement to disclose who impregnated the beneficiary. We now have a requirement. People may want to be compensated for the risk that in 10 or 15 years\u2019 time someone will front up to them, and say: \u201CHello dad, I want you to meet your moral obligations.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is a very prissy and very anti-commercial attitude. It sounds very fine saying that there should not be commercial surrogacy, but it really means that the really public-spirited person, the person who has loved having her own kids, has found pregnancy not to be a burden, and would be quite happy to add that delight to another family, cannot be compensated. Curiously enough, the elite folk in the industry have made sure that they have exempted themselves. They are allowed to collect, store, transport, counsel surrogacy, inseminate for surrogacy purpose, do ovulation and pregnancy tests for surrogacy services, and give legal advice. They are free of any sanction. However, the woman who does all the work and who actually carries the child could be fined $100,000 by the prigs who pass this law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI ask this Parliament to think a little bit past the self-righteousness that goes in saying: \u201CWe will only have volunteers in this industry.\u201D That is all very well if there are enough volunteers. What about the thousands of New Zealanders out there at the moment who cannot find adopted children? Volunteering does not necessarily meet the demand. In an orgy of self-congratulation this Parliament is about to pass a bill that simply states that we cannot compensate someone for carrying a child for another family. I do not see anything worthy about that. I do not see anything high-moralled about that. I see that as a simple exercise\u2014one group of privileged people saying: \u201CWe will judge others.\u201D Similarly, with advertising. Then look at the committee provisions. This committee, however it is composed, will do something that our society rejected years ago. When electricity came in, when flying came in, or when motorcars came in, if a committee of experts had been available to decide whether those were utterly safe, they would never have gone anywhere. They would not have happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4ee290aa2654aacb5bb9b71c74bb8ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4ee290aa2654aacb5bb9b71c74bb8ac\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E When we look at the fine print of this bill someone like Mr Franks should be very reassured, because in the absence of any regulation, basically it is all left to some very vague guidelines that would enable almost anything to take place and that would be very, very hard to police. Dr Hutchison corrected me\u2014there are some regulations that prohibit some things, and we are very thrilled about those. Despite what Mr Franks said, they do prohibit genetic engineering, cloning, and a few other things, and we are very, very pleased about those. But although this bill has a whole set of regulations about what is prohibited, it basically has no regulations about what is permitted, and that is our problem. That is why we have a very simple amendment to insert new clause 35A, which basically states that guidelines issued by the advisory committee may be used as a basis of an ethics committee approval once they have been issued as regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI want to point out to the Committee just how weak those guidelines are. I have a number of those guidelines and one could literally drive the veritable bus through any of them. In fact, I do not see how any of them could be enforced. As an example, the guidelines on pre-implantation genetic diagnosis just released 2 days ago say basically that it is the responsibility of the providers\u2014the fertility clinics\u2014to decide whether a disorder is likely to be serious in an offspring of a particular couple. So it is up to the fertility clinics to decide. Where does one draw the line? What is a serious disorder? Is it a cleft palate? What is it? That is just an example. The guidelines state that pre-implantation genetic diagnosis for anything will be considered on a case-by-case basis. Dr Linda Scott is looking perplexed. She should look at the guidelines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAnother guideline I have here is for the disposal, storage, and use of sperm of a deceased man, and it states: \u201CA clinic should undertake an annual review \u2026 It is expected that sperm collected in the circumstances would be stored for a maximum period specified by the clinics.\u201D How will that be enforced? It is expected that they will be collected for a maximum period\u2014it is expected. It is also stated that partners of the deceased should be encouraged to inform the wider family or wh\u0101nau. How will that be reinforced? These are wiffly-waffly words\u2014\u201Cit is expected; we should have done this, or we should have done that.\u201D How will the Government try to use that as a basis for policy making, regulation, or enforcement? It will not be able to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHere is another example, and this will exercise Stephen Franks. It is \u201CGuidelines for non-commercial altruistic surrogacy using IVF as a treatment\u201D, and it states that the prospective birth mother and her partner should have completed their family, as this may reduce the likelihood they will want to keep the child. It also states that they should take measures to ensure that they do not conceive their own child during the treatment. Frankly, it is just laughable. Fortunately, the Minister is listening to this. Those are the guidelines that will regulate some of the most far-reaching things in New Zealand about how far we may go in assisted human reproduction, and where we will set the limits. Basically, Mr Franks can rest assured. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIf one was cynical, one would say that this bill is almost in the category of a regulatory facade. It sort of implies that there are clear limits, but when we dig down and look at the fine print, we see instead that we have some wiffly-waffly guidelines that, basically, will be unenforceable. That is why all we are asking is that the guidelines, as in every other Western country that has legislation, should have regulatory force. All we are asking is that they have the force of regulation that would have to be considered by the Regulations Review Committee. Also, we have amendments to the effect that the guidelines should come before Parliament and be sent to the Health Committee for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00228fd013146c554f8195aa00d0b02319e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fd013146c554f8195aa00d0b02319e2\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I take over from where my colleague Sue Kedgley left off on this issue, because I share her concerns. These guidelines are nothing short of a complete abdication of responsibility by the ministerial advisory committee. They are saying: \u201COur advice is that we give the responsibility to clinics.\u201D That is so far from what any of us in the select committee thought the guidelines would be like. We thought they would have a little more substance to them than that. Straight away, for me, alarm bells are ringing. That brings me to, I guess, what is my greatest concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIf I had to pick one issue out of this bill and say that for me it is the No. 1 scary issue, it is clause 37, which is directly linked to the issue Ms Kedgley has just been talking about and is directly linked to these proposed guidelines. Clause 37 states that the advisory committee is to provide specific advice in respect of human assisted reproductive technology, and it lists a number of things that the ministerial advisory committee has to develop guidelines on as a No. 1 priority. Some of these things were strongly recommended by submitters to be included on the prohibited activities list, but they were not included on that list. They have been put in here, and the ministerial advisory committee has, by its intention, already shown that it will abdicate its responsibility and pass it over to fertility clinics and fertility counsellors. Those clinics and counsellors will decide what should be done on issues such as donations of embryos, embryo splitting, which has a huge number of implications and even legal ramifications, gametes derived from deceased persons\u2014this is our own \u201CMrs Blood\u201D potential; we are now asking for guidelines on those to be developed, with no reference back to this House\u2014and requirements for informed consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EEven the requirements for informed consent are interesting. When we look at what ethics committees decide, we see that most of what the guidelines seem to be concerned about is whether everybody has signed the right piece of paper and whether everybody has consented, rather than some of the considerations that a lot of us have. What are we doing to society? What will be the long-term outcomes for offspring and their families as a result of allowing those procedures? We need to look at the bigger picture, not just at whether everybody who is involved today has signed the appropriate consent form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe are requiring the committee to provide guidelines on pre-implantation genetic analysis. We are asking it to provide guidelines on the importing, or exporting from New Zealand, of in vitro donated cells or in vitro donated embryos. These are hugely significant issues. Mr Franks is making light of the fact that we will have court cases out of this. I tell Mr Franks that there are already active court cases right now in New Zealand involving biological parents warring with each other over who is the legal guardian. For instance, we have cases where\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfbfc22cda0b42e097d1f398dcc48a9c\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: This doesn\u2019t resolve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b390768b49004b8a891a8f7956aebb84\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dc6813b8d7f478ea16a5611dd70ce83\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Why support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d566c88bdb546eb86891ebe8eaea3e0\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225842734e26a14dc48221b38da67914dc\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you voting for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f59c4fa5e2c44b6a2c83550e8e9b7ab\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not voting for it. This is the point I make. However, my solution is totally different from that of Mr Franks. His solution is: \u201CLet\u2019s all just take our hands off and let the market get it right.\u201D I am saying that this legislation is too loose. We need to tighten it down. We need to turn these guidelines into regulations so that we are very, very clear, issue by issue, as to what is acceptable practice and what is unacceptable practice. There has been a general scrutiny of these issues by people with a vested interest. As members of the House of Representatives, we are in what I consider to be the unenviable position of representing large numbers of voters in this matter, and to be excluded from any part of this process would be a very, very sad thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI encourage members of the Committee who have a copy of the bill in front of them to take a very close look at clause 37, which, I think, is the most dangerous clause. If I was concerned before I entered the Chamber tonight, I am now even more concerned when I see the test case of what is already recommended in the guidelines, which, as I said before, show a complete abdication of responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd217ffae79848b7a96a36be13ea1877\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd217ffae79848b7a96a36be13ea1877\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I did not finish talking about the Green\u2019s final amendment to clause 72. I would like to take a final call on this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e267734b5c8c4f76a43a9077d3301472\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re jumping ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722c24234c7e4693ad2cdf67a9f29fdb\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, the member is absolutely right. I will go back to new clause 35A. I thank the member for pointing out that I have jumped ahead of myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBasically, I want to make it absolutely clear that the Green Party is supporting this bill, but only because we believe it is slightly better than the status quo. We are not supporting this bill because we think it is marvellous and we are enthusiastic about it. What we did think was an excellent bill was Dianne Yates\u2019 original bill, before it was gutted. The original bill set up a proper licensing regime and a system based on what is used in the United Kingdom\u2014a system similar to that in Canada and other places. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe bill has been completely gutted. It must be distressing to Dianne Yates, but I am sure she takes the view of the Green Party that it is better to have something in this area than nothing. At least we have outlawed some of the worst excesses\u2014namely, genetic engineering and cloning\u2014and at least we will have a committee that will consider the issues and call for submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI am interested that some of our members were as horrified as I was to read the guidelines that have been put out. All we will have in the future are those waffly guidelines. I agree with Judy Turner. Frankly, it is shocking that the guidelines would leave it up to providers to decide on such fundamental issues as what is a serious genetic disorder and what is not. It is completely left up to the fertility clinics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022107deeef3fa44e34bee196a623935d7c\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: An excellent idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3a776f170434290ac0627734df720e9\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is not what Bill English was saying. Of course, I know that some members on that side of the Chamber have a background in fertility clinics, and from their perspective I am sure that fertility clinics would like the absolute minimum of regulation. Well, they have it in this bill. They have virtually the green light to do whatever they like. We have a bit of a regulatory facade in many respects, which makes it sound as though we have some sort of control over these areas, but, frankly, when we look at the fine print, we see that the guidelines are virtually unenforceable. What will happen if some fertility clinic goes beyond these wiffly-waffly guidelines? How will someone try to enforce them? I have read out some of these things, such as \u201Cthey should do this\u201D, and \u201Cthey should take measures for that\u201D, but frankly, the guidelines are completely unenforceable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI appeal to members to do the simple thing of putting them into regulation. The Associate Minister of Justice, David Benson-Pope, is here. I know he has taken this bill on at the last minute, and I know he is very, very busy, but I appeal to him to show a little common sense. What is the problem with following the example that has just gone through the Canadian Parliament and giving the guidelines the force of regulation? Why is the Labour Party so utterly opposed to putting regulations on these extraordinarily contentious areas? We have regulations for almost every conceivable thing. The Regulations Review Committee deals with regulations morning, noon, and night. The chairman of that committee, Richard Worth, is sitting here. Why on earth would we not have a regulation surrounding such issues as the taking of gametes from deceased persons, embryo splitting, and other such contentious issues? Why would we allow that to go to an unelected, unaccountable committee, which, as Bill English pointed out, is basically a law unto itself and not accountable to anybody? Why will we not even allow those issues to be debated and discussed in this Parliament? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI will let members know, when we come to my amendment to Dr Hutchison\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, that our amendment states specifically that if the issues are inconsequential and small, then of course the Minister can say they do not need to come to Parliament. We are saying that only on contentious issues\u2014those about which New Zealanders are likely to feel very strongly\u2014should we in this House have the ability to discuss and debate them. Let us make no mistake about it, this committee is basically setting policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u00228d9b089adca14b5ca31ab9b13ffb7461\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d9b089adca14b5ca31ab9b13ffb7461\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I have made no secret of the fact that in some areas of this bill I would prefer a regulatory system, rather than guidelines. As members know, guidelines cannot be enforced, but regulations can, and they have a checks and balances process through the Regulations Review Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003ESome areas in the bill that are internationally highly controversial are open to the guideline process\u2014such as, as we have seen, taking gametes from a deceased person. The consent process, in terms of both the technology and the patient, is also left up to guidelines. In most other countries that have this legislation the consent process is also subject to regulation and is quite clearly spelt out. That is particularly the case, as has been said already, in Canada. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThe other thing I wish to speak about is Judy Turner\u2019s amendment to clause 33. I think it is a very good amendment. Clause 33 refers to the ministerial advisory committee and who should be on it. The select committee agreed there would be one member with expertise in reproductive technology, one member with expertise in human reproductive research, one or more members with expertise in ethics, one or more M\u0101ori members with expertise in M\u0101ori custom and values, one or more members with the ability to articulate issues from a consumer perspective, and one or more members with expertise in relevant areas of law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThis amendment also states that there should be one member with the ability to articulate the interests of children, and refers to the appointee being someone from the Office of the Commissioner for Children. Taking note of the opinions of in vitro fertilisation children who submitted on the bill and of what Dr Hutchison said, I think it is an extremely good idea and a very good amendment. The paramountcy of the rights of the child have not been included in the bill, and I think it would be a very, very good idea for someone on the ministerial advisory committee to be given the responsibility to represent the rights of children and to be able to look at the future interests of those who are born from this process. It is part of the principles of the bill, and by including the clause 33 amendment in the name of Judy Turner we will have the interests of children at heart. That will also include and take into account some of the concerns Mr English has about this bill. I think it is a very good amendment, and we will be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00226d146a2796eb43e1a1ad9bfa5affdfbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d146a2796eb43e1a1ad9bfa5affdfbc\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Again I appreciate the opportunity to participate in the debate on the Human Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill. This is the bill that will regulate assisted conception and forbid cloning and hybrid embryo transfers, etc. It is not common in Parliament that we debate issues in genuine debates. I have appreciated the opportunity to hear Ms Judy Turner\u2019s contributions and to see the amendments she has put forward. She tells us that United Future will oppose this bill, and I am glad about that. But she has attempted, nevertheless, to mitigate its consequences. I am, however, really puzzled about the position of the Green Party. The member sitting beside me, Sue Kedgley, who spoke for the Green Party on this bill, has talked constantly about it being effectively not regulation at all. She has called it \u201Cwiffly waffly\u201D and not achieving any objectives. She has used a whole lot of terms to say that the bill does not do anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat I am baffled about is that Sue Kedgley was the deputy chairperson of the Health Committee, and the committee\u2019s report states: \u201CThe Green Party is pleased at the way many aspects of this bill have been strengthened by the select committee. We are particularly pleased with the new provisions that prohibit the genetic engineering of humans and that prohibit the sex selection of embryos for any reason other than treating and preventing genetic disease. We also welcome the strengthened requirements for public consultation \u2026\u201D. That does not sound very \u201Cwiffly waffly\u201D. The report goes on to state: \u201CThe bill gives the Ministerial Advisory Committee wide-ranging and virtually unlimited powers to issue guidelines and advice on any matter relating to any kind of assisted reproductive procedure \u2026\u201D. Now, it is true that at this stage guidelines could be seen as \u201Cwiffly waffly\u201D, but Ms Kedgley goes on to state in the report: \u201CThese \u2018guidelines\u2019 will not only set out policy on a wide range of assisted reproductive procedures; they will also be in reality binding legal instruments, or a form of delegated legislation \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E How is it that we can hear so many strident speeches in the Chamber about \u201Cwiffly waffly\u201D non-prohibitions that at the same time are binding legal instruments, or a form of delegated legislation? They have to be one thing or the other. I would really appreciate it if the member in the chair, Dianne Yates, who is in charge of the bill, could seek advice from the officials and give us at least their view on whether this stuff is as \u201Cwiffly waffly\u201D, inconsequential, and irrelevant as the Green member has been portraying it, or whether it is, as I fear, a straightjacket on medical research and on medical technology in this country. This is yet another incentive for our best young graduates to disappear overseas to far more interesting and vibrant scientific environments. Worse still, it is a reason, because it is binding, for ordinary New Zealanders who desperately want children to go elsewhere and spend their hard-earned money from New Zealand on doctors and other technologies in countries where people have not panicked at the first sign of a change in the status quo. That is what this issue is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill is equivalent to a bunch of politicians deciding, when the Wright brothers first took off from an airfield, that they had better appoint a bunch of experts to decide whether anyone should be allowed to fly, in case they hurt themselves. There is no difference in substance. There is no evidence of any significant risk that has materialised to anyone in this area. There are legal uncertainties, just as the Wright brothers faced legal uncertainties. I have confidence that the cases that Judy Turner has mentioned will be worked out by the courts, and that we will learn from those in a way that a bunch of sanctimonious parliamentarians can never learn by consulting their fear of the dark. What we have here, as has been admitted, is ignorance and a lack of knowledge of what could, or may, happen. We have a decision that instead of the New Zealand tradition that what is not specifically prohibited is lawful, which is the proud boast of English law, what is not specifically permitted is prohibited. That is a very bad legal principle. It follows the Continental principle. That is what despots do\u2014they do not do anything unless they have been told that they can do it. That is what this law does. That is why most of the ACT party will vote against this bill. We think it is a very proud principle of freedom that one can do anything that is not specifically prohibited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002223d18f773a7c40daaf660a811842f71a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223d18f773a7c40daaf660a811842f71a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E There were two points that I just wanted to answer. One was the repeated assertion by Stephen Franks that there is a risk-free aspect to the technologies addressed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3f37410a6b4d43bcb3ef3d2c341220\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: No risks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208e50a40613b4dfc8a05f08789faac9b\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he seems to be wavering on that. Undoubtedly there is a spectrum of risk. Although at one end it is indeed serious, at the other end it is minimal; hence the beauty of the way that this bill is constructed, in that it allows flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other point that I want to make, once again, is the value of the guidelines. Sue Kedgley from the Greens asked us what constitutes a serious congenital or genetic condition, and that of course is extremely difficult to define. Last night on National Radio we heard a discussion on the proposed guidelines for pre-genetic implantation diagnosis in New Zealand by a variety of experts in the area, including people from the disability sector. They made a very strong plea that there may be one particular condition, such as Down\u2019s syndrome, where for the parents and in the circumstances in which such a child is born, it is hugely beneficial for those around it. However, they also made the point that there may be a condition like Lesch-Nyhan syndrome, where automatically the baby will be born without any ability to have a functioning brain, will tend to be self-destructive, and will inevitably die. A parent who has had a child like that on two or three occasions would undoubtedly find it hugely traumatic to have a further similarly affected child. Pre-genetic diagnosis is a new technology that may avoid such a disastrous consequence. The point I want to make to Sue Kedgley is that the judgment of what constitutes a serious condition is extremely difficult and is variable, so it is impossible to regulate a whole list of things that we will ban, or that we will stop. Hence, that is the absolutely appropriate reason for offering guidelines that the experts can then get on with applying practically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to clause 8(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022465a571f718f4c12a4d8df5e939102e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000605\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to clause 9(4) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225a49910827014c01a306bd6ef02a6e4c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000606\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to clause 9(3) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228772fbda93774120ae0eb6545ff4dec7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000607\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 268 in the name of Judy Turner to clause 9(4)  be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002208847e8941fa4f8c949c6eaacc5d2dae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUnited Future 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 1; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000608\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 268 in the name of Judy Turner to the heading of clause 11 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227bd8944a64f240a7bedf23a72fba5742\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000609\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 269 in the name of Sue Kedgley to insert new clause 11A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226401bc6a6d3d476299d3e1dfea8295e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 1; Green Party 9; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 7; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000610\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to clause 22 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022db060bbf4c8548a1ae6becfa39e26cbc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000611\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to clause 23(b) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220bcda9878cf54972b9448989a447e127\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000612\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to the heading of clause 25 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022817b188590ee4598a9f8a8ab71ba4998\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000613\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to insert new clause 25A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227041318d37b742a0933bb594bd853a35\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000614\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to add new subclause (7A) to clause 26 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a8dc252342094ac284506a10b41c708d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022a93c2267db704c54a099b7cea7e3cff1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a93c2267db704c54a099b7cea7e3cff1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendment is to clause 33 in the name of Judy Turner. It is a typescript amendment to add a new paragraph (g) and subclause (4)(a). It replaces the amendment to clause 33 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 268.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Judy Turner to clause 33 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (4)(f) the expression \u201C; and\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new subclause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E(4)(g) 1 or more members with the ability to articulate the interests of children.; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto insert, after subclause (4), the following new subclause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E (4A) Any person appointed by virtue of subsection (4)(g) must at the time of his or her appointment hold the office of Children\u2019s Commissioner or be a representative or employee of the person who holds that office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022479bad4f791c4d06b75b5be45014719d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000622\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 268 in the name of Judy Turner to insert new clause 35A be agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e871a31cd30d45bbb6b0a4172d8da65b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 30\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 90\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000623\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 269 in the name of Sue Kedgley to insert new clause 35A be agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce845b35f76c4db38833758966cabfda\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 1; Green Party 9; United Future 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 5; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a8ca7b73551348a4a0e0f895040d230c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 2; United Future 3; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 5; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022787e3bd828bc4f1b985f89c425554aea\u0022\u003EPart 3  Information about donors of donated embryos or donated cells and donor offspring\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc3f824ea9a84c21a2b30cb3d5f36683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc3f824ea9a84c21a2b30cb3d5f36683\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E This part deals with information about donors of donated embryos or donated cells and donor offspring. I think, once again, that this part very much exemplifies the long genesis of this bill, and the thought that has gone into it from a whole variety of papers, with one in particular\u2014Assisted Human Reproduction: Navigating our Future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the themes that came through so strongly, based on the evidence that Professor Bill Daniels and others provided, was that the ethos of openness was extraordinarily important in this area of reproduction. Undoubtedly, children do want to know where they have come from and who their parents are, and the major focus of Part 3 is to ensure that there is appropriate information-gathering and the opportunity, prospectively, for donors and offspring to be able to find appropriate information at appropriate times\u2014again with a degree of flexibility and according to their wants and desires. Generally, one of the things that has changed now is that donors will be required to have openness about their identifying qualities and characteristics and, eventually, to be identifiable to their offspring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the things clause 42 does, however, is signal \u201CNo retroactive application\u201D. Clearly, that is appropriate if donors in the past\u2014and it was the situation in the 1970s and 1980s\u2014had donated anonymously and did not expect to find offspring trying to track them down. It would be quite inappropriate to overturn that. However, due to a large variety of both donor offspring and donors around New Zealand contacting me and various others, there has been a strong call for a voluntary register. Such a register works successfully in the state of Victoria in Australia, and I have put forward Supplementary Order Paper 270 to that effect, which I understand the Government will be prepared to support. I think that it will be hugely appreciated by that large number of people who in the 1970s, 1980s, and early 1990s were not given the opportunity to be able to trace donors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is remarkable to me that I had numerous emails and letters from donors, as well as from offspring, wanting this to happen. Some were extremely emotional about it, and many said: \u201CLook, although we realise it may not be possible in every case, it is really worthwhile to us and hugely meaningful for us to at least have that possibility there.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESo I would exhort the Committee to support that Supplementary Order Paper. I added a further amendment to it that deals with half-siblings as well as full offspring. That would mean that brothers and sisters who may not have the same donor could contact each other on a voluntary basis. Again, I am hopeful that the Committee will support that aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAnother area that is worthwhile pointing out is clause 51, \u201CProviders must keep track of donor offspring births\u201D. The clinics have just recently approached me about this issue. Of course, it is ideal and optimal that all births are clearly traced and recorded, and that there is an excellent system. However, in the reality of this world where people change their names, miscarriages occur, people go overseas, and all sorts of extraordinary things happen in that biological bell-curve spectrum we have to deal with in this area, it would be impossible in practical terms for all providers to be able to track down donor offspring births. Consequently, I have tabled a further amendment, whereby best endeavours are to be made to track donor offspring births. It is a purely practical, technical amendment that, again, I urge the Committee to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce2849765f024b5082ffd9f111e4fdda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce2849765f024b5082ffd9f111e4fdda\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the Committee to correct the vote of the ACT party on the last part. I inadvertently voted the wrong way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bde351fcf1d42d2a8ea498b13d51339\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022212b40cb702d443784a6a94d7b2c0245\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I voted eight opposed to Part 2. It should have been six opposed and two in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00223e8e8cd1dca94878aed3e3705c323294\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e8e8cd1dca94878aed3e3705c323294\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The corrected vote for Part 2 as amended is 102 for, and 18 against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022bff4e95503504f1aa5c600a339832b5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bff4e95503504f1aa5c600a339832b5a\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3, \u201CInformation about donors of donated embryos or donated cells and donor offspring\u201D concerns an area that many people in New Zealand feel very strongly about, because they are donor offspring or they have donated. I totally support Dr Paul Hutchison\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 270 to have a voluntary register established before the date provided in this bill\u2014that is, before clinics started recording names. We have had a lot of emails from people contacting us about how they feel when they cannot get access to information on their genetic inheritance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAll of us want to know where we came from, if at all possible. I remember a constituent who came to me early in my time as an MP. She had just had a little boy who had a genetic defect, and she never knew that she had been adopted. Right up to after the birth of the baby, she never knew, and the trauma she faced when she found out was enormous. It made so much of her past life a lie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThrough this bill there is encouragement for those people who have a child via donated sperm or embryo to be honest and upfront right from the beginning, and to let that child know. Up to the age of 16, the child will have access to information on the donor\u2019s genetic make-up. After the age of 18, the child can get the name and, also, a great deal more information about the donor. Between the ages of 16 and 18, a court order can be made if there are special circumstances when a child needs to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI remember watching a movie, and I think it was based on real life, where a US doctor had been the donor for many, many children within a town. The reason donors have to be willing to have their names made available to children is to stop something like that happening. If people can think of doing something, often it will happen. We need legislation to provide a way to prevent those sorts of very unfortunate circumstances from happening. In this bill there is no retroactive application about being able to know about donors, but Dr Hutchison\u2019s voluntary register will certainly go some way to helping those people born prior to the introduction of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIn the 1990s clinics started recording the names of donors, so donors had to be prepared to give their names. Often people may want to be donors because they want to be able to help, but often a donor may be known to the family. Donors may be, in some way, involved in the situation. They know the distress that is being caused by the infertility, so they are prepared to be donors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIn the select committee we heard from one person who was a donor offspring\u2014and some submitters wanted the name changed from \u201Cdonor offspring\u201D to \u201Cdonor child\u201D. That person talked about the painful experience of closed adoption in the past, when children could not find out anything about the genetic inheritance of either their mother or their father, and how that had affected them. It is rather unfortunate today that the option of adoption has reduced so much, because many adoptions were extremely successful. It is sad to see that that has become much less of an option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EPart 3 does give pretty clear directions about the age at which someone can find out about the donor, and what information can be given out. We had a lot of debate about the age, and about whether people who were not yet 18 years old could find out who the donor was. In the end we decided that although genetic information could be obtained, donor offspring had to be of a certain maturity before they could handle information about the actual name of the donor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022274fa3a9e8f64f5b8d8a8fa30175a95c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022274fa3a9e8f64f5b8d8a8fa30175a95c\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E As the debate has shown, aspects of this bill are highly contentious, so it is pleasing that one part, I think, has the support of all parties in this House. I think that all of us support this provision and all of us, I believe, will also be supporting Dr Hutchison\u2019s amendment to establish a voluntary register for people who have already been born from assisted human reproductive technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ELike others, I have been contacted by people who are offspring from human-assisted reproductive technologies and are utterly dismayed that they cannot find out who their parents are. This is what is called an unintended consequence. When people began using this new technology, obviously there was no thought that the offspring would be as desperate as anyone else to know who their parents were. So it is interesting that this aspect was ignored by the legislators of the day, but now we are trying to rectify it. For many of those people who cannot find out about their parents, it is a source of great heartache and distress, just as it was in an earlier period for adoptees who were not able to find out about their parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe only other thing I would say is that some people have said that if donors cannot be anonymous, then there may be a significant fall-off in donor numbers, and I think that that has happened overseas. In fact, I heard an interview where the participants said that in Holland there had been a significant decrease in the number of donors once they were no longer able to be anonymous. But the regulators over there said that despite the fall-off in donor numbers, they still felt that they had made the right decision in requiring donors to be identified and not be anonymous, because, ultimately, the interests of the child should prevail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHowever, there also have been some rare but high profile cases in which, for instance, someone who ran a clinic had been anonymously donating sperm to literally hundreds and thousands of people. People had not realised this, and there were neighbours down the road not realising\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd988694c5745e2b8e72e98440001d2\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: There were children who looked alike.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a4df57208e5486cbd1833f31d1248e0\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the children looked alike, and they all came from the same sperm donor. We have had cases of this even in New Zealand, where people have found that in various communities children all have the same father, as they have come from the same sperm donor. Indeed, they could be marrying each other, because the sperm donation was all anonymous. There are very, very good reasons why we cannot allow donors to hide behind anonymity. This move may result in a fall-off in the number of donors, but we will have to live with that, because ultimately\u2014as the bill states\u2014the rights of a child to know his or her parents must prevail in this instance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EMany people have been talking about how sad it is that adoption rates are falling off and infertility rates are increasing. We all tend to look at adoption and technology as being the solutions, but in fact we really ought to be looking at why we have such declining rates of fertility in this country and around the world, and why sperm counts are estimated to have declined by up to 50 percent. For those reasons, we ought to be looking at environmental causes, in particular such things as the estrogenic environment that we are creating. Ultimately, it is only when we look at the environmental causes behind the decline of fertility that we will find a solution to it. All the technology and techniques are expensive and invasive, and they will not provide a solution to the seriously declining fertility that we have in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHowever, I digress. The Green Party is very, very pleased to support Part 3 and to support Paul Hutchison\u2019s amendments to this particular section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00224edd6add1e364be2adaef68a33c937ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224edd6add1e364be2adaef68a33c937ec\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a reasonably brief call on this part, mainly because, as somebody who has to date been very critical of the first two parts of the bill, I would like to make a positive contribution on this part, which I believe has great merit. While we obviously cannot force parents to disclose to a donor offspring his or her origin, I think it will be very important\u2014and I am sure it already happens\u2014that recipients are given very good counselling about the importance of letting children know their genetic background. Historically, when sperm donations started, we did not anticipate the interest that offspring would have in that further down the track, so it is great to now take this opportunity to address that problem. I think that the moment we start to underestimate the huge importance to children of having those important pieces of the jigsaw in place that help them with their identity and sense of who they are, we really will have lost our way. Of course, this issue is particularly important when we consider that at present in New Zealand nearly 50 percent of in vitro fertilisation procedures are offered to single women and to lesbian women. That fact alone makes it extremely clear why the issue of children being able to access in later years that important information about the identity of their father will become even more substantial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAnother thing that I think is interesting is a story I heard recently. Apparently if a New Zealander who is overseas bumps into another New Zealander and the two talk together for less than 10 minutes, they are more than likely to discover somebody whom they know in common. That means that we are a bit of a village here in New Zealand, because of our population base, so the chances of accidental incest are increased. Therefore, good recording of information and the availability of that information to the people concerned are more crucial for New Zealand children than perhaps for the children of other, larger nations. We need to be very aware of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe had a previous speaker talk about a concern that has been expressed about a fall-off in donors. However, I really do believe that even at the level of being a donor it is irresponsible in this day and age, and with what we understand now to be the case, to allow somebody to be a donor who is unwilling to allow the offspring who arise as a consequence of that donation to go without the all-important information about their identity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe other thing that struck me, based on the experiences of people whom I have spoken to, is the number of people who have discovered in their later years a latent, genetically inheritable disease that they wanted to then notify offspring of, so that their offspring could make lifestyle choices that would lengthen their lives. It will be particularly important that donors are able to track back in order to let that important information be passed on to the appropriate offspring. We are supportive of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe will support Dr Paul Hutchison\u2019s amendment to have a voluntary register. I do, though, have some concerns that his other amendment would let clinics off the hook a little with regard to their responsibility for maintaining good information. I realise that there will be some difficulties, but I think that we need to keep that as tight as possible and put a huge onus on fertility clinics to keep, and to strive to keep, the very best information possible for the future use of offspring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u0022164622012b2941819b9a2bc2a713681c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022164622012b2941819b9a2bc2a713681c\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call in this debate on Part 3 of the bill. In particular, the debate has been discussing the importance of a child knowing the identity of his or her donor parent and of the details being recorded. Clause 46 states that the following details of each donor should be recorded: the donor\u2019s name, gender, and address, the donor\u2019s date, place, and country of birth, the donor\u2019s height, the colour of the donor\u2019s eyes and hair, and the donor\u2019s ethnicity and any relevant cultural affiliation. In the case of a M\u0101ori donor, his or her wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi should be recorded, to the extent to which the donor is aware of those affiliations. Finally, anything to do with the medical history of the donor or the donor\u2019s parents, grandparents, children, and siblings is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThe interesting point that I will make is that the Health Committee has obviously gone into a lot of detail about the right of children to understand their heritage, culture, lineage, and place in the world. I totally agree with that concept, but I ask the Committee why there is not the same enthusiasm to provide children with that information about their father if they happen to be born to a mother who decides not to name the father of her child on the birth certificate for some other reason, such as evading child support payments, and so on. Why has Labour not done something similar to this for the 40,000 children in New Zealand today who find themselves in that situation? I find the double standards in this Parliament quite bizarre, when we can be holier-than-thou and say how important it is for children who come under the auspices of this bill to have the right to know who their other parent is, whereas out there in New Zealand today there are 40,000 kids whom nobody seems to care about. I find it absolutely bizarre that on the one hand our New Zealand Parliament can treat the issue with such care, concern, and consideration, and on the other hand it does not give a toss. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI would like the members of the Labour Party, who all appear to be voting en masse for this bill, to actually reflect on that issue. The issue is alive for every single child out there who does not know who his or her father is, not because of the fact that his or her father is hidden away on the other side of the world and cannot be found, but simply because the State colludes with the mother to prevent that child from finding out who the father is. I think that is one of the biggest disgraces in New Zealand today, and it is aided and abetted by this Government. Just this week the Government passed a bill to a select committee that dealt with this issue, without actually even trying to address the right of those children to know their dads in the way that we see in this particular bill here. I think that it is something that this Parliament should actually be ashamed of. If anybody listened to the families and the children out there who do not have a dad, and who know that that is because somebody did not ask their mother to provide the detail on the birth certificate, they would realise what heartache there is. Also, we have heard about the future genetic problems as children who are related and do not know it intermarry, and so on. Those issues are alive and well out there, and it has been going on for the last decade, yet nothing is being done to fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E I would suggest to the member sitting in the chair, Dianne Yates, who has obviously persuaded her own party that it is an important issue that certain rights and provisions should be made for children, that maybe she needs to extend that influence to the other children who are not captured by this bill. I suspect they are out there in far greater numbers than the children this legislation will affect, so I suggest she picks that up as an issue that she can help to pass on to her colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 270 in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to clause 42 be agreed to.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u0022138fc04320ca465ca17f30224542f24e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022138fc04320ca465ca17f30224542f24e\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Can I just clarify. Is this the amendment that will bring in the voluntary register\u2014this is the beginning of that amendment? Is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a30a08032c4e0f84238466c7128849\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a30a08032c4e0f84238466c7128849\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022939c251ff4b84410a5365fbe026f83c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 6; Progressive 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000662\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to clause 51 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000663\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause and substitute the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000664\u0022\u003E51\tProviders to inform themselves about donor offspring births\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000665\u0022\u003E\tProviders must use their best endeavours to keep themselves fully informed about the births of donor offspring.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229ca08f656e2c454fa472b6f11e588b94\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 5; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000666\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to proposed new clause 61A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 270, in his name, be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000667\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (9) the following new paragraphs:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000668\u0022\u003E(d)\ta person whom the Registrar-General believes on reasonable grounds to be a person\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000669\u0022\u003E(i)\twho shares a donor with the donor offspring; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000670\u0022\u003E(ii)\twho is 18 years or older;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000671\u0022\u003E(e)\ta person whom the Registrar-General believes on reasonable grounds to be a person\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000672\u0022\u003E(i)\twho shares a donor with the donor offspring; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000673\u0022\u003E(ii)\twho is under 18 years.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227495fcefeca1447baa7b1462c7752e34\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 6; Progressive 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000674\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 270 in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to insert new clause 61A, as amended, and new clause 61B be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e061e47c735940cebc126ade4e861002\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; Progressive 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; United Future 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000675\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 270 in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to clause 62(2) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225ee9a0e63cf845e48c05a8a634e37bd9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; Progressive 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; United Future 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227f8b03afa94247e3bb56f9bea71237a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 2; United Future 6; Progressive 2; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 5; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00220f437b67088e496084acee9becfa2ad3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f437b67088e496084acee9becfa2ad3\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I have listened to the debate this afternoon and this evening with some interest. I have heard several parties give a split vote. I am formally asking your advice on how I can get to know who in those parties voted for and who voted against. I believe the public is entitled to know. This is quite shattering legislation, and I think the public want to know who put their name up to go with it and who voted against it. I know that National recently had a split vote; as did United Future, in particular, and probably some other parties. I just want your advice on how I can obtain the names of the people who voted for and voted against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc522df53ad7463cbf79221a419c25b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc522df53ad7463cbf79221a419c25b4\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E We voted a split vote at the first reading, and this House allowed a split vote to be taken at that time. That has continued today during the Committee stage. The House gave approval for a split vote, and that is why we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ed48a4161e04747ac8e8ee0df3ef94b\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I am not opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022169d44ee4f3f4bb3936198de85e91a7f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be silent while Mr Tisch is speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d9d15d0434844eb8436d83e9ca9a8f1\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I know the member is not opposing it. The procedure is as we are conducting it. I do not believe, when the House has given approval for a split vote, that an individual\u2019s vote has to be divulged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c1d32458d2d491e893ec6fa0d294818\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite correct. That is exactly the situation. There is nothing in the Standing Orders that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc1caeb68b34efd96511d1336fce6f1\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4b0b63f31f42d4a390443e7e349506\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I am just affirming Mr Tisch\u2019s analysis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad5a3e5cfb4141b991ed9efe35d4b41f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad5a3e5cfb4141b991ed9efe35d4b41f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am not wishing for this to become a personal vote. I am simply asking that the parties at least say who voted for and who voted against any particular clause. I believe that the public is entitled to know. I believe, with due respect to yourself as Chairperson, that this is a serious issue, and I do not want to go past it tonight unless I can get some assurance from the Speaker\u2014and I am prepared to call the Speaker back on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022b760e2d6d29d40fa8fdc7a613a9579da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b760e2d6d29d40fa8fdc7a613a9579da\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I understand that this issue was also traversed by the Business Committee today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f123377ce284f53b8195db27bed47ac\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f1f9434eed04fb5986faaed797d8eef\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday\u2014I am corrected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2fbd5ba1e5a4a34a05db1e405aa3626\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: No, it wasn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef8b70c50a3e4c65add3ef32c4d8065f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: It was, actually. I have seen the minute referring to it, so it should be no surprise to any party that was represented there. I suggest to the member that if he wishes to have that information he could write to the whips, who, if they chose or if party members authorised it, could make it available. But obstructing the business of the Committee around a procedural issue that has already been debated is hardly constructive or productive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb452494348143448b3daab526dc10bd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to confirm this. Mr Benson-Pope is quite correct. That is exactly what the Business Committee did agree to, and it is entirely a matter for the whips whether they divulge that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002244d3488d4147436499a4499637411235\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244d3488d4147436499a4499637411235\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I concur with your ruling. We have written proxies from our members, which I hold here. I am not prepared to divulge who voted which way. I have cast the votes with the leave of the House for a split vote, and it is certainly not my intention to divulge the information about our members\u2019 preferences. This is not a personal vote where we go out to the lobbies. This is a split vote, which the House has agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bbcb5a0be8f401585f3254963958818\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: And the House gave leave for that. Mr Lindsay Tisch is absolutely correct. That was exactly the procedure the House gave leave for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00229fba7e939fd54bf0a4adcf7d412a3441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fba7e939fd54bf0a4adcf7d412a3441\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I want to get it absolutely clear in my mind that you are accepting Mr Tisch\u2019s assertion that he can sit privately and in no way divulge who voted one way or the other. That is acceptable to the chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f6e0a95dd7401f8dd9c3e7ba0c64a5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is the leave the House gave. It has nothing to do with Mr Tisch. We are talking about the leave the House gave. That was the correct procedure, as was indicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c94d551edc34a8ebc9583bdbb92e29b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I will seek the leave of the Committee, if I have to, to divulge\u2014not necessarily now and not privately to me, but publicly, through the system\u2014who voted which way. I seek leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcde25e6c5884a3cbf81f19a1885f789\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can seek leave for that purpose; that is quite correct. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022232c9031e8e34e16b179ba378134367d\u0022\u003EPart 4  Enforcement and miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286bfae796dde4e75b24d869732620ea0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: This includes debate on schedule 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002275dffe1cda004c2cb42260084cc3eb55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275dffe1cda004c2cb42260084cc3eb55\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E People might think that Part 4 does not matter much, but, of course, it does because it is about enforcement. Enforcement will matter a lot in this bill because the structure is so loose. There are a few hurdles that a new procedure has to get over, and Part 4 puts the whole of the burden of enforcement and practical monitoring on the so-called \u201Cauthorised person\u201D. That authorised person referred to in clause 64 is defined in the interpretation clause as including the Director-General of Health or someone authorised in writing by the Director-General of Health. The first issue I want to raise is a technical one. For the first 9 months of this legislation the Director-General of Health is both the rule maker and the enforcer. I do not think that will work, and I hope officials and the Government are aware of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EClause 75 designates the Director-General of Health as the advisory committee for the first 9 months. The Director-General of Health is also the authorised person who has the powers to enter premises to label things, to take jars away, and that seems to me to be a pretty fundamental conflict of interest for the initial period of the legislation; I would be interested in the Government giving some explanation of why it thinks that that would work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E The second thing is that we are in the odd situation where the transitional provision in clause 75 looks to me to be much more desirable than the permanent one settled in Part 3, because at least a transitional provision makes the advisory committee accountable. The Director-General of Health is someone we can have in front of a select committee, he or she is subject to a purchase agreement with the Minister, and can have his or her own advisory capacity within the Ministry of Health while carrying on as the advisory committee. That matters, because in that 9 months it will not be a committee of the great and good that is potentially making very important decisions that I believe this Parliament should make; it will be the Director-General of Health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ELet us look at the kinds of decisions that the Director-General of Health will be able to make. He or she will be able to decide whether people will be able to use gametes derived from deceased persons, and to decide what the requirements are for informed consent. It is my contention that those decisions ought to be made by the Parliament, but because Parliament has voted to support Part 3 those decisions will be made by some vague, formless, and maybe well-intentioned committee\u2014decisions over embryo splitting, and the selection of embryos using pre-implantation genetic analysis; every one of them an ethical and public policy minefield and on which one does not need to be an expert to have an opinion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe transitional provisions, depending on one\u2019s point of view, either make it worse, because they put in charge a civil servant subject to political direction\u2014a civil servant subject to political direction will make those decisions; or one can decide that it is a good thing, as I think perhaps it is, because the Director-General of Health is personally accountable for the decisions in a way that the advisory committee never will be, because the Director-General of Health is subject to the accountability procedures of this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI would like to see the term of 9 months extended to 5 years, because we would then have a start-up period where the Parliament can get at the people who make the decisions\u2014in this case, the Director-General of Health. Nine months is not a long enough transitional period as far as I am concerned. I would make some recommendations to the Director-General of Health in the time that he or she will be the advisory committee\u2014that is, not to rush off making decisions about these things except to be conservative and cautious. The Director-General of Health in her capacity as the advisory committee should not allow any of these new procedures to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002241b31469aaaa42059b060a9885ec77cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241b31469aaaa42059b060a9885ec77cf\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 4 indeed does deal with enforcement and miscellaneous provisions. The Hon Bill English has once again asserted that the structure of the bill is too loose. The strength of the bill is due to the fact that it caters for the broad spectrum of conditions and techniques that are available and it allows flexibility. When he talked about transitional provisions, and clause 75, which covers the powers of the Director-General of Health, I think he should be reminded that the existing situation has worked very well for the last 20 years or so without any specific legislation. As we know, a variety of Acts influence this area, but now, for the first time, specific legislation is being applied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other point that I think should, hopefully, give Mr English some degree of security is the fact that the clinics themselves are all very much affected by the fact that they belong to the Australasian reproductive technology accreditation group. That is a requirement of their being able to register and function. That group in itself has very, very strict guidelines as to standards, quality, and information gathering, and it has really served New Zealand and New Zealanders extremely well. It is because of the fact that we\u2014unlike other countries like Canada, UK, and Australia\u2014have not had specific legislation in this area that this bill has finally come into being after 9 years of gestation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhile there is indeed under clause 75 the period of 9 months whereby the advisory committee will then come into power, in the meantime some very strong safeguards are already in existence. The Hon Bill English should be assured or reminded of the fact that there has not been any major concerns in terms of people breaking the law with the whole spectrum of activities that are available. As I said, Part 4 does indeed deal with enforcement, and there are some pretty clear enforcement requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EClause 64 states: \u201CAn authorised person who believes on reasonable grounds that any assisted reproductive procedure is performed or any human reproductive research is conducted in a place, may at any reasonable time exercise any of the powers in section 65 reasonably necessary to ascertain all or any of the following matters:\u201D\u2014and clause 65(1) lists a wide number of powers: to inspect, to make copies of extracts, and, if suspicions are great, to \u201C(d) search for and seize\u2014(i) any equipment or device \u2026 (ii) an in vitro gamete: (iii) an in vitro embryo or an in vitro foetus: (iv) a document or record \u2026\u201D. There is a long list of specific things that an authorised person can indeed do. It is right and proper that these enforcement requirements are there and that these powers are there, and there are penalties for their being used inappropriately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that the bill does have a sufficiently wide span of enforcement instruments available to it, and they include the clinics themselves, entry of dwelling houses where it might be suspected that inappropriate activity is taking place, and the ability to be able to seize equipment and look after it, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne other area is clause 72, which relates to the regulations under the heading \u201CMiscellaneous provisions\u201D. Again, a wide number of regulations can be applied by the Governor-General, by Order in Council, that include prescribing requirements for informed consent, and providing for the use or destruction of in vitro gametes or in vitro embryos.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7332f2602394df5a74f6998a46dd76e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7332f2602394df5a74f6998a46dd76e\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to discuss an amendment to clause 72 that has been proposed by the Green Party. Basically, we are providing a procedure whereby regulations would first of all have to be laid before Parliament, so that Parliament could examine the proposed regulations and provide some response. It does not require the Minister to follow the advice of Parliament, but if the Minister did not and chose to ignore Parliament, he or she would have to provide reasons. There is also a provision, which would placate Dr Hutchison, that would allow regulations to be promulgated without first being laid before Parliament if they were minor or if they protected a person\u2019s health and safety. All this is seeking to do is say that there should be some provision for regulations to be laid before Parliament before they are enacted. Basically, this clause is taken from Canadian legislation, and, as I have previously pointed out, Canada does not have the very vague guidelines that we have been talking about all night. It has very specific regulations. In Canada, all the policy surrounding this highly contentious area is in regulation, and those regulations must be discussed by both Houses of Parliament in Canada. Similarly, we know that in England there is a licensing regime and there are regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis is a last-ditch effort by the Green Party to introduce some\u2014just some\u2014minor scrutiny by Parliament and some accountability into this bill. At the moment, once the bill is passed, in the next few weeks, it will be the end of Parliament\u2019s involvement in this whole contentious area. We will have an unelected and unaccountable committee making policy in the form of rather vague guidelines in these highly contentious areas. It will make policy that is, of course, technically illegal, because our laws say that only Parliament should set policy. Committees, like the ministerial advisory committee, should only implement policy that is set by Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis legislation, as we pointed out in our minority report, is in clear breach of parliamentary procedures, which say that only Parliament should be setting policy. In fact, once this legislation comes into effect Parliament will abdicate its role and its ability to make policy in this highly significant area\u2014an area that is full of ethical minefields. If there is any area that Parliament should be able to set policy in, it is this area. But no, once this bill is passed, Parliament will be abdicating its role, and leaving it totally to an unaccountable and unelected committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAs I have previously pointed out, the guidelines issued by the ministerial advisory committee 2 days ago on a highly contentious area of pre-implantation genetic diagnosis do not even suggest that that committee make decisions in this area, but instead delegate it to the fertility clinics of New Zealand. It is quite extraordinary. So this amendment is an effort to say that we should at least have some mechanism by which reports and regulations would be laid before this Parliament. The Health Committee could then examine the contentious issues and make recommendations. The Minister would not be obliged to follow those recommendations or the advice of Parliament, but would have to provide reasons if he or she chose to ignore them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOur amendment would introduce a small degree of accountability and a small degree of scrutiny. I suspect that it will be defeated, as previous amendments we have put forward tonight will be. So we will be setting up the most permissive and the weakest regime for assisted human reproductive technology in the Western World, and we in this Parliament will be abdicating our ability to set policy in this highly contentious and controversial area. I think we all need to be absolutely clear that that is what we are doing here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022085466f84ca1460b8208248100c76085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022085466f84ca1460b8208248100c76085\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Part 4, which deals with the regulations and transitional provisions, the role of the Director-General of Health, and compliance, is different from what was originally proposed in the first two bills, because of the Health and Disability Services (Safety) Act. Previously, the two bills that were adapted by the Supplementary Order Paper had a quite considerable amount in them about licensing of the actual facilities that are performing fertility services. One member made the point that we have been boxing along quite nicely for all this time and we have not had any legislation in this area, but, of course, science is moving on and developing, and there is the possibility that cloning could occur in New Zealand. If other countries in the world stop those procedures, then people will look to a country that did not have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022867c801e1f094356bb522f57fee8b1fe\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041006096e502c4e8447dcb7129df645324a3c000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"