"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002216f3887215434356957005f13904c978\u0022\u003ETuesday, 19 October 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cf43dc853ee499281da342d883412de\u0022\u003ETuesday, 19 October 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002227e9ef9187124c0ca38aae956ef0b905\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffb73485aeb54fee9e14091062ea77ce\u0022\u003EPapua New Guinea\u2014Minister for Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002203196d3371524a1a88fce261700f18f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203196d3371524a1a88fce261700f18f6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing honourable members that Sir Rabbie Namaliu, Minister for Foreign Affairs, Papua New Guinea, is within the precincts of this Chamber. I am sure that members would wish that he be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003ESir Rabbie Namaliu, accompanied by the Hon Phil Goff, entered the Chamber and took a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276866b5659c048df84a8e51d64d2aee2\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fddad1f69f964ffe901a97913cf0f875\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c9519cb9e99741c79ba513b1e5754a69\u0022\u003EMember for Tamaki Makaurau\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a3650866ec640ccbee4d4158c46e3e2\u0022\u003E1. Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Hon John Tamihere; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00223b4efa13114145f7bb888b40fb40c8d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b4efa13114145f7bb888b40fb40c8d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E A number of allegations have been made against Mr Tamihere. An inquiry has been set up to consider those allegations. I hope that the outcome will enable me to reaffirm my confidence in Mr Tamihere as a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9309e342edb48659415ed7697d76c8a\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that she has been given a written guarantee by Mr Tamihere that he has done nothing that would embarrass her, and can she tell the House why she is not embarrassed that Mr Tamihere has accepted a $200,000 golden handshake after giving an unequivocal assurance to the public that he would not do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e94805dcba374c9aa694c2d65a8aeba5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot answer the first part. I am aware that Mr Tamihere certainly has given a verbal assurance to the Prime Minister, who, of course, is in India at the present time. On the second issue, the issue that was in play in 1998-99 was the extraordinary tendency of the National Government to keep paying people large sums of money to go away when they were no longer wanted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225713a796d47048a5b85951a12b0709d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister recall these comments on radio on 29 July 1999 from Mr Tamihere, on the question of a golden handshake: \u201COh, it\u2019s never happened before, so I want to make a number of points clear. As of last night there won\u2019t be any severance pay. No, there won\u2019t be. I don\u2019t mind. Well, it hurts me, and, obviously, if my bank manager is listening, it\u2019s going to hurt him.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f10c1dce120b4856a0a09d43465773b9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have been reminded of those comments on a number of occasions in recent days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227289ec2f3e44920bd9d8cbd3d618493\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister tell the House why she finds it acceptable for Mr Tamihere to mislead the country by stating he would not accept a golden handshake, and then accept a payment of almost $200,000, when she had earlier stated that Ms Dalziel was required to resign for misleading the public, and can she tell the House the reason for her acceptance of two different standards of ministerial behaviour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f66c6ccfa4a453892f9b80c19bd3a32\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I will ignore the implication in the last part of that question, which, I am sure he is aware, is clear to most members on this side of the House. In terms of the first part of the question, I suggest the member waits for the outcome of the inquiry when the nature of the payment, hopefully, will be made clear. On this side of the House we prefer to see the evidence in full before arriving at judgment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c09025a85ea4a878c74cdba45b5a8e8\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister believe John Tamihere when he said he would not accept a golden handshake; if so, does she believe him now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a7ada639a6445792d84bafe244fd0f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: This question places me in difficulties because it is addressed to what the Prime Minister believes, and she is in India. I am the Acting Prime Minister. [Interruption] I believe the statement made by Mr Tamihere in 1999. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0cfee211f624a738612cd70fd160bd9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6dfb63ec3d445e8b72718b4ecf5af7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member hear the Minister\u2019s full reply? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f65f903477d462a803b610789de7b02\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aad6340312d479e8eb8224cadf255bf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder whether the Minister could repeat the last part of the sentence. The member can raise a point of order when it is complete. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222120c0ffd1d84841af66f6f8e35344a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I was saying on my own behalf, as Acting Prime Minister, that, yes, I did believe Mr Tamihere\u2019s comment made in 1999. We shall await the outcome of the inquiry to see the nature of the payment made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b6e9c9db1f5419583a4e1b7ae920c56\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. These questions are not asked of the Acting Prime Minister. Mr Speaker, you have made it very clear when in the past we have questioned the ability of Ministers to answer, that Ministers answer as if they were the Minister. Surely, today, Dr Cullen answers as if he were the Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd6c132bfad6461db01561f053d96ac8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: To be more precise, for the purpose of question time I am the Prime Minister. I have the authority of Cabinet to be the Acting Prime Minister. Strictly speaking, the question should therefore not be addressed to \u201Cshe\u201D but to \u201Che\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bfb45516113418e9fc69cdf144b8d6b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is perfectly correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1fc6af50b5402ba8bd5cc298a0fec3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister recall these comments made on radio on 29 July, when Mr Tamihere said: \u201CAnd as I have indicated to you this morning, as of this morning, it\u2019s no longer an issue for wh\u0101nau Waipareira or John Tamihere\u201D, alongside the letter he received, dated 3 May 1999, from the secretary for that trust, setting out the golden handshake he was about to receive; if so, what did she as Prime Minister do with that information, either then or later?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f06fc5a4a77b4a65b6fcf92f97cdba41\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The information the member referred to has just been released, so the Prime Minister did nothing with it in July 1999; and that payment was not received at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022544168c4cee543bd8d4899c488fb1e6b\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: If the Prime Minister does not believe that misleading the public, failing to pay tax on $200,000 of income, providing an inaccurate return on electoral expenses, failing to declare the gift of a motor vehicle, and failing to declare the gift of a $2,000 insurance premium are sufficient grounds for removing a ministerial warrant, what more will Mr Tamihere have to do to justify the Prime Minister\u2019s action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a944354b9444e9b0a633b28923bda6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, an inquiry is under way into these allegations. Depending on the outcome of the inquiry, action will be taken as appropriate, whereas the member who asked the question, when one of his colleagues was convicted by a court, left him on the front bench of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022567eb81c95c4474084aa20cf91ca26c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister take any notice of the proceedings in Hansard of 27 July 1999 when she was warned by New Zealand First of this, and when the then Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley, said: \u201CIf it is as alleged, and if the Waipareira Trust does not receive any income, other than from Government-funded sources, it may well be a significant issue. But I would not want to conclude that until I have knowledge as to whether the trust has sources of income other than Government contracts.\u201D; if so, what did the Prime Minister, or for that matter the previous Prime Minister, do with this very serious information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f6238eae01406eb301c0d034c05a01\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am certainly not responsible for what the previous Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley, may have done with that information. All I can say is that the issue of the nature of the payment, and the timing of that payment, and who insisted on that payment being made, is properly a matter for the inquiry; and I suggest members wait for the outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a258858a10254fe9911c8d0e6a85f991\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a document setting out seven golden handshakes, six of which are smaller than John Tamihere\u2019s payout, headed \u201CA decade of shame\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229269a0485ce04b839b290081851e577d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has had quite long enough to discuss what is in the document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226661205590cd4ae8a31b1c8d4f4d41d5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Acting Prime Minister\u2019s comments that the information about John Tamihere\u2019s golden handshake came to light only in recent days, I seek leave to table comments made on Friday by Mr Tamihere stating that information about the golden handshake was known in 2000 when he was investigated by the five organisations, including the Prime Minister\u2019s own department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263702607700b499eaf25097e29943938\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b379941f8674f7696974817e965047c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a statement by the Rt Hon Helen Clark on 5 February 1997 in which she said: \u201CAotearoa Television is a private television company, sustained almost entirely by taxpayers\u2019 money. The manner in which that company spends that money is a matter of great public interest and should be of great interest to the Government.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224524f479fe641909c26144a0c65d957\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that statement. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b7becb6cb78439d9cc85cfca309fd27\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter dated 3 May 1999 from the secretary for the Te Wh\u0101nau o Waipareira Trust to John Tamihere, setting out the circumstances of the payments that he was going to receive at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a84ad0c9e4a4b69a2c15b0f2c66ed1e\u0022\u003ENon-governmental Organisations\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b73a887ca4f455da8dd805aa73fec44\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Is all Government funding that is allocated to non-governmental organisations, including trusts, conditional upon audited accounts being produced by the recipient; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00224656f206f5074adb9fc60b48c911b3ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224656f206f5074adb9fc60b48c911b3ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Government agencies are expected to ensure accountability for public money, and Government contracts are monitored for proof that public money is used properly. That information comes from a range of sources, which is not limited to audited accounts. Payment can be withheld until information required under the terms of contracts is provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2dc68b07b734d5589cfd7cdf0e5c2ca\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that until the capacity to monitor Government funding arrangements with non-governmental organisations is vastly improved, then Pipi Foundation and Waipareira Trust - type scandals will become a recurring and painful nightmare, and the people who are supposed to benefit from such public funds will continue to be ripped off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf99532377134402bdb27f23fffd9781\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept that. I do not accept necessarily that that will always follow. I do accept the member\u2019s underlying assertion that it is useful to revisit some of the issues surrounding what evidence is provided, but I am sure he and I would both agree, in the context of other legislation before a select committee, that one must also be aware of not overloading voluntary organisations with compliance costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227431367cd9134840ba58aa6015b68ba2\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the Auditor-General stated as far back as February 2003 that there are \u201Creal problems\u201D in the capacity of agencies to monitor Government funding arrangements with the non-governmental organisation sector and that that would be treated by him as a high priority; if so, why has that gaping hole in best-practice procedures not yet been plugged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1b20634ea4f462fbdca33ecd7276135\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for reminding me of that, but I do repeat, again, that it is important not to overreact to particular circumstances and end up with an excessive range of compliance costs on voluntary organisations whereby they spend all their time meeting Government requirements for information, as opposed to actually doing their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbaadaaa771544809f604f65bcba6d97\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister agree that the audit processes on organisations like the Waipareira Trust have been wanting, especially since John Tamihere was able to say on Friday that the information about the golden handshake was known in 2000 when he was investigated by five organisations, including the Prime Minister\u2019s own department; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239767f4137d341a3a35864627865ba72\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: On the last point, I think there is some confusion. An offer was made to Mr Tamihere in 1999. He did not accept that offer at that point. That has been made clear in recent times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022004dab1fd2164f798299126d9ade3149\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The comment from Mr Tamihere was that the golden handshake was known about in 2000, not 1999. It was known about at the time that the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet was itself investigating some activities relating to Mr Tamihere and the Waipareira Trust. I think that is a very salient point that the Acting Prime Minister should not try to dodge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228342ab9e8fde4f248c586d4755f8cb26\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The principal part of the question was about the auditing requirements. I would point out that even in the great United States of America, massive corporates have had troubles with auditing in recent years, not just small voluntary organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022483f21a45e8c4be08a24deb1b1af5a5e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Prime Minister aware that in past times the Waipareira Trust has declared an unrealised profit on a development as being present income, which is something that is totally illegal, and, bearing that in mind, what are we to make of the inquiries that she instituted, including a Serious Fraud Office inquiry, and, more particularly, of its competence in doing the job it was asked to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbb1a3cd4b254c80be0e32ab6f07751d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I was not aware of that first point. Matters relating to the trust were investigated very thoroughly in 2000. If one cares to reread those reports, one sees they can scarcely be regarded as a whitewash, given some of the criticisms that were made of the management of the trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb080c82497d47f2b8b3c0edf990720a\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when applicants are unable to access grants from the Lottery Grants Board unless they provide audited accounts and agree to provide detailed information on how grants are spent, do non-governmental organisations continue to receive funds from the Government without those essential safeguards, and when will such folly come to an end?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b7c39e3803445d8b32144bd3f27aef2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member raises a useful point, which should be looked at. But again, the purpose from the Government perspective is to make sure the money provided for a particular purpose is spent on that purpose. The other aspects of the accounts may not be relevant to the Government\u2019s concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679365c56c344704a854e155b6bedfa0\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a series of documents: firstly, my letter to the Controller and Auditor-General of 24 February, raising an issue about accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224790fe2aa264437e82d5a7064f2a3212\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Secondly, the Controller and Auditor-General\u2019s reply to me on 28 February 2003, stating that there are real problems in this area and that it is a high priority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cf26b04a6344f5966c552feed9e4e0\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: And thirdly, an extract from the annual plan of the Auditor-General for 2004-05, stating that this issue remains a matter of concern to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad09babb16f545ce9b0b4665bc72272d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e6c3b9d78cb4789b7a7cf0d9656b075\u0022\u003EMember for Tamaki Makaurau\u2014Waipareira Trust\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a351001a1cd47be8edab1397e213ab4\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What is the nature of the inquiry into allegations surrounding the Hon John Tamihere and the Waipareira Trust established yesterday by the Government, and can she assure the House that all relevant matters will be fully inquired into?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022094aea10a89f442d85e6e460f416100b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022094aea10a89f442d85e6e460f416100b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E It is to be an independent inquiry by Mr Douglas White, a respected Queen\u2019s Counsel with expertise in tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233d015d7104040e38e20262673f4ee9d\u0022\u003EOpposition Member\u003C/span\u003E: It sounds like a whitewash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022523e090e4da14752b45cebd46caf4531\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to accuse Douglas White of that outside this House; he may find himself a lot poorer as a consequence. If the Opposition member seriously thinks that Mr Douglas White is connected to this Government, he should ask some of his friends about those matters. It is the intention that all relevant matters will be inquired into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203691c476a144980a141e3007e0be8f5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with the comments of Sir Geoffrey Palmer, who stated: \u201CI think it is also important to say that this is not a commission of inquiry. This is not a body that will hold public hearings. It does not have the power to compel evidence and to cross-examine people. It relies on the voluntary cooperation of the people about whom the inquiry is being launched.\u201D; if she does, how can the public be confident that Mr Tamihere will cooperate voluntarily, when he has shown himself capable of saying one thing and doing the opposite in secret?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e57a6b16e134f5a9c94f280cc56a7d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: On that particular matter, I think it is important to remind ourselves that this inquiry is being carried out by a respected Queen\u2019s Counsel, that the two essential groups involved\u2014that is, Mr Tamihere and the trust\u2014have both indicated very clearly that they will cooperate fully with the inquiry, and that Mr Tamihere has every vested interest in cooperating fully in order to defend himself. I would, of course, like to refer to Mr Douglas White QC a number of matters relating to tax avoidance promotion by people like Mr Rodney Hide, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8d2a9a6b2be462cacc97b3854898bb3\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Prime Minister expect the Inland Revenue Department to investigate a case of alleged non-payment of tax on a payment of the magnitude of that made by the Waipareira Trust to her Minister, the Hon John Tamihere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df5c2a7c93d4162add4416e2c24a042\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is familiar with the Tax Administration Act, he will know that as well as being the Acting Prime Minister I am also the Minister of Revenue. Ministers are in no position to direct the Inland Revenue Department about what inquiries are undertaken. It will therefore be a matter for the commissioner to monitor what is happening in this particular instance. In this instance the issue is: did Mr Tamihere have good reason to believe the tax was paid at source? I would suggest the member waits for the evidence before jumping to a conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dade768d91774cceaa22e09d3215a27d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Acting Prime Minister did not answer the question. The question was not whether the Minister of Finance would instruct the department. The issue was: did the Prime Minister expect the Inland Revenue Department to investigate an allegation of that magnitude?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229648840df55148e0ad8886f68dd8882c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was the question that was asked. The Minister addressed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1dc689e5f14e3b831ff134fb9f6964\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How can the public, or this House, have any confidence in the inquiry when Douglas White QC has no statutory authority, has no ability to subpoena witnesses, documents, or files, has no ability to cross-examine witnesses, and cannot look into any matter without the express permission of those being inquired into; and does that not lead us to assume it is a powerless, toothless, Clayton\u2019s inquiry designed to whitewash the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287dda4ccbd2644f790a2f74b20a592cc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No. Of course, I am sure that if the inquiry comes out arguing that the allegations are correct that will be warmly welcomed by the Opposition members, who will suddenly decide that Mr Douglas White acted fully independently, as I am sure he will. As I said, both the trust and Mr Tamihere have promised full cooperation on these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f720607187a45c39c9e5fa6ac49bd81\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister if, whether or not tax was paid on the golden handshake at source, it is not a fact that Mr Tamihere would have been required to declare the income that he received because it would have affected his overall tax rate with respect to his primary source of income? Yes, it is!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257f31d76cbbc41629ad81b45c724f9a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not. I have excellent outside advice on that matter. Income incurred during the year 1999-2000 did not require a declaration to be made as long as the person who received the income had reason to believe that it was taxed at source. [Interruption] There is the sound of glass houses cracking all over the place. There will be a vast number of members in this House who have not made a tax return for a number of years as a result of the law changes brought in in 1998 by Bill Birch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022542f543d0aba48dbb1e5e19562f2b906\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the tax on this golden handshake was paid at source without knowledge of the overall taxation of this one income earner, would it not affect the taxation rate if it was not declared?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c079e36d3c774500945f6c3f4cb88972\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The income was incurred during the tax year 1999-2000. The top marginal tax rate was 33 percent on income above $38,000. Therefore, if there was reason to believe that tax was deducted at that marginal rate, then no further tax liability would have been incurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbbc43bcaa9546e1bf6098acfb47eb48\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will the independent inquiry investigate the material concerning the six payments made by the trust when Mr Tamihere was the chief executive officer to five bogus companies, matters concerning the vehicle made available to Mr Tamihere, and aspects of his requirements to file accurate information on his ministerial interest return; and to whom will the inquiry report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241aee65cd27e4a17a375c735c2156bf1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The first two matters are the ones, of course, that are of significant issue. My view is that the terms already cover those particular matters, but if Mr White is uncertain whether that is the case\u2014and I will make sure that the officials contact him about this\u2014then the final terms of reference makes it possible for the Prime Minister to refer those matters off, and that would certainly be done. The report of the inquiry comes back to the Prime Minister, and it will certainly be made public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278349f0e64b54010801554d9086254e6\u0022\u003EPapua New Guinea\u2014Regional Security\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a51ef8897545cbbc6b7001daf7db8b\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade: Will the Foreign Minister consultations with Papua New Guinea today address threats to regional security; if so, what are the priority areas for consideration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022cde3bda61ece43c4ba76a150c10196e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cde3bda61ece43c4ba76a150c10196e5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Discussions will encompass broad issues involving regional security, including counter-terrorism measures, transnational crime, regional interventions dealing with the Bougainville peace process and the regional assistance mission to the Solomon Islands, and other threats such as HIV/AIDS.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e09970c77e53440abdbe0ba9ef7f90f3\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made in areas that particularly affect Papua New Guinea, such as the Bougainville peace process and HIV/AIDS?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220de94dd40c8c45389ad2718ee162003c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Very good progress has been made in Bougainville\u2014in particular, with regard to weapons destruction, with over 90 percent of weapons now having been destroyed. The law and order situation there has also improved, and New Zealand is providing support with five community police officers on Bougainville. Following final agreement on the Bougainville constitution, provincial elections are expected to be held sometime after March next year. On HIV/AIDS, estimates vary but the World Health Organization has estimated that between 1 to 2 percent of the population in Papua New Guinea could be HIV-positive, and the threat of a serious epidemic is real and present. The Papua New Guinea Government is showing leadership in that area, and is working with international organisations on preventive measures. New Zealand is providing support for that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bec1c1e785764bc996669d3418381e78\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be talking about the threat to regional security posed by Indonesia\u2019s occupation of West Papua, and will he be trying to enlist Papua New Guinea\u2019s support for the UN\u2019s review of the bogus 1969 Act of Free Choice, by which West Papua was incorporated into Indonesia; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecd0eea7a890475799ccd40285e1c234\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: West Papua has been part of Indonesia since 1969, albeit through a process that left many people around the world less than satisfied about its legitimacy. That is not a formal topic on the agenda, but we will be encompassing a range of issues that deal with the wider region. Obviously, Indonesia is a significant country in the region, bordering Papua New Guinea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d7e17473f85419dac5856f8b2939a12\u0022\u003EMeningococcal Disease\u2014Vaccination\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c420c53dced4dc08dd49614ed8b7d98\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: When was she informed of the heightened concern among the New Zealand public regarding meningococcal disease, and is she confident that the vaccine for meningococcal disease now being prescribed by the Ministry of Health is safe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022e225220dda5e4d66bbcbd0112ef63eb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e225220dda5e4d66bbcbd0112ef63eb7\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I became aware of the epidemic in the 1990s. The disease rates had doubled from 1991 to 1992, and again from 1994 to 1995. By that time it was obvious that the disease had reached epidemic proportions. Yes, I am confident that the vaccine is safe. That confidence is based on the independent safety monitoring board\u2019s report on the vaccine, released on 15 October, which found there were no issues of concern regarding the vaccine\u2019s safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a679aa8948054a70a7bddb0450741e32\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: On the question of safety of this vaccine, is it not a fact that 80 percent of trial \u201Cvictims\u201D had a reaction to the vaccine, and that no placebo tests were done\u2014without which there is no credibility in any drug trial?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf519874886c41e4a67e6e935b734a09\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The clinical trials carried out on this test were up to international standards. There is no doubt about that. The reactions from the vaccine have all been predicted. No reactions that have been reported to the reaction centre are outside what was expected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022259a84121a6a4f1ba6432d2e233aa17d\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports claiming that the epidemic has peaked, and that there is no longer any need for a vaccine; if so, what is her response to that claim?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fee86c5ae594571a0c857c0bcc0ce1b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware, and a number of people have claimed this, but it is not a view I share. There were around 50 confirmed or suspected cases in 1990, before the epidemic began; today there are over 500. We would have to wonder at people who believe it has finished. At this stage I am certainly not convinced, and neither are the people responsible for the roll-out of this vaccine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060cf2d14e434e458d8cd82266e212f5\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the efforts of the Northland District Health Board, to stop general practitioners displaying a vaccine poster because it had a slightly cropped picture of a woman\u2019s head were correct; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022770a463bb18d4f9e931d517e8455afb1\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a matter of whether I think it is correct. There are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffface356cca443f835e95b89dc31b0b\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t you have an opinion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd025f14cf1042469898f86e64fc857a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member would like to wait for me to finish the answer before she starts screeching, I will give it to her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34b8c95b98347d3afa795b21a2af43c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I never heard you say a thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f48765fb09a1467d916af3b34babad7d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard an interjection. I heard a reply\u2014a response to the interjection. The response went a little far. If a person interjects, then the Minister can reply to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c96c4a31d33a4eb78e4b077693b1c7ec\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. It is not for me to decide which poster will be used. There are a number of posters that can be used, and I do not mind which one they use. I am more interested in getting maximum coverage for the immunisation programme. However, I have to agree with my colleague Dover Samuels, who said: \u201CThere is not need to do a haka over the poster\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c732d5cc9d604d40b24dca5f7f515ec2\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister say in July of this year that the meningococcal epidemic \u201Chas shown no signs of abating\u201D, when answers to written questions show that the number of meningococcal cases has been declining since 2001 and that as of week 38 of this year, there has been a 73 percent decrease in the number of deaths, compared to 2001?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d5c6187ac1d4c22800e89fe724b8f57\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be aware, from the answers to that question\u2014and she was also provided with this graph, which shows it\u2014that we peaked at the same amount in 1997 as we did in 2001. It dropped down, and then spiked up again. To say that we are not going to continue that trend means that she knows a lot more than the experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225631d68fe7754420ae37dd375a3bc0ae\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the comments of the Ministry of Health Meningococcal Vaccine Strategy Director, Dr Jane O\u2019Hallahan, that: \u201CAmateur interpretation of complex scientific data is dangerous.\u201D, and that people in the public eye and media should not resort to emotive claims which could result in vulnerable children missing out on this much-needed vaccine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297aad2751dff40d88ccef11e466a2c52\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d03c7b2282d490a8ab564ab23f6cce2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Again on the question of this vaccine\u2019s safety, why is the ministry referring to the extensive trials conducted in Norway where the parent vaccine, similar to MeNZB, was trialled, which was tested on 180,000 adolescents, yet never refers to the fact that the Norwegian Government decided against the use of this vaccine, after research concluded that it was not effective enough to justify a national campaign; why did that happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b8cd3a65259431cb5bd246a0c361d09\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Norway, unfortunately, had the experience of suffering meningococcal-B for 25 years. When the Norwegian Government trialled a vaccine on 180,000 people, with 360,000 doses, it was in the 19th year of that epidemic. A decision was taken by then, based on the evidence they had, that it did not stack up in terms of cost-benefit, so they did not continue with it. If we have had it for 13 years, on the basis of what happened in Norway we would need to have another 10 years of this epidemic with all of the consequences that come from it, including 220 deaths to date, and over 5,400 New Zealanders affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c18c0e7fadf47df92eece71afe52918\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table an email from the Northland District Health Board instructing general practitioners not to display the poster because it might be considered \u201Cculturally unsafe\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed054da5d224b8d9791e3740b8eadf5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022355e8e1763d646239b95f12600d7661f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a press release from Mr Heatley wanting to have the vaccine in Northland as fast as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1fcb5a0ab1d47c78302568628874a27\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the so-called culturally unsafe poster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220212e85c1ff5428a8a03608be8004eee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the poster. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1056bcd2b104153b1d6c3e427e45ed0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a 7 October 2004 press statement from the UK in respect of Chiron\u2019s manufacturing site licence suspension in the UK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c7ec5b688a14e54911508edebc8ec44\u0022\u003EMember for Tamaki Makaurau\u2014Taxation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e36f0f71eb24b59a5da75a672afee78\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Is it Government policy to require all taxpayers to declare all income to the Inland Revenue Department, and has she or her deputy asked the Hon John Tamihere whether he declared his reported \u201Cgolden handshake\u201D from the Waipareira Trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00222528b2f786f045de9f4cfbf6bee1f2f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222528b2f786f045de9f4cfbf6bee1f2f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E No, because the law changed in 1998 in that respect. As to the latter part of the question, I invite the member to look at the press statement from the Waipareira Trust today about the nature of the payment made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65828d32e8140eba541287b6928fbef\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister telling the House that in the year in which John Tamihere received the golden handshake he filed no tax return?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a70d066fe2394e35831ea7b556bfcecc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has no knowledge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a366332ef01e4d4d9661a8213b28d995\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Ah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227823c8b8c3eb4762b2f97428261cb590\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member would like to make it that the Minister of Revenue can look at all of the tax returns of members of Parliament, I suggest he asks a question along those lines. I would be quite interested to do that in some cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f426342672b049a1a564b618b113507f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022461ec378fb94463b894e2d998deee5d2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the one and only warning today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e8929d9465b4e5b90024dd3ae055f00\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The Acting Prime Minister never addressed the question. If John Tamihere had no obligation to declare his income, then clearly he must have filed no tax return. My question was straightforward and I think it should be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0dd6aa193674961923ccc8da7e147d1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister is not responsible for any member of Parliament filing a tax return. The person is responsible for following the law. The law is actually quite clear and not what Mr Hide has been trying to pretend it is on radio over the last few days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6bad53615944da798a7d0988ee8237a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister read Mr Tamihere\u2019s recent autobiography in which on page 3 he states that at university he \u201Cconcentrated on commerce, company, and tax law\u201D; and does she expect the House and the New Zealand public to believe that Mr Tamihere, a legally trained fellow with chief executive officer experience, did not have the knowledge to know that tax should have been paid on his golden handshake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278fc187fd0a7400792209180e69875be\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, the issue around the nature of the payment is, of course, one for the inquiry. Secondly, the issue is not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be9c9a35f2c44dfab4bcb60d5dedf9d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, fudge it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022057b5fe8eafa44fabcbec8de9e4fc806\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Since that member got convicted he seems to have got even chirpier than he used to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239843846a93d475db3fb875cfc2d4086\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225617eb2a07c44f47abc856dc37306398\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a290a96e6cee4572a05c931151d96a83\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It needs to be a matter of public record that I was never convicted. In fact, if I had been, your ruling would be quite different. It was a finding, which is not a criminal matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a134f199e6c24a1095e435e4235123d1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the member\u2019s word on this occasion as I must and I will. Could the member repeat his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ea18219fba44a990f1d8382566bea8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister read Mr Tamihere\u2019s recent autobiography, in which he states that at university he concentrated on commerce, company law, and tax law, and does she expect the House and the New Zealand public to believe that Mr Tamihere, with that background and his experience as a chief executive officer, did not know that he had to pay tax on his golden handshake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426c0606e9944d848def037a64227522\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: What I would expect Mr Tamihere to know is that, firstly, if income is incurred during a tax year in which there was no other income and he had good reason to believe that tax was deducted at source, he had no reason under law to make a tax declaration. [Interruption] That is the law as passed by this Parliament and as proposed by Mr Birch, the outgoing National Party Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ccc01e99d34ab1b0e07626e08c5e3d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022797fa458a1d14afb8856ac9a8f11d2ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is this a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a4762a1be074739b5180936edac8c32\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is a point of order. These are important questions, and I think the Acting Prime Minister should treat them as serious questions, and answer them that way. Everyone in this House knows that John Tamihere received income as a member of Parliament in the year that he received the golden handshake. It is a simple question for the Acting Prime Minister to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022285397cb5a4e42bf974d5b098a2b41bd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The second time the Minister answered the question he most certainly addressed it, and addressed it seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102922b660784ffbb2994f47f5e941a7\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister therefore saying that in Mr Tamihere\u2019s mind the $195,000 was net of tax, making this secret golden handshake, which the public had been told Mr Tamihere would never take, a gross amount of $320,000 at the 39c rate, meaning that Mr Tamihere\u2019s secret golden handshake from the Waipareira Trust would be No. 2 in Helen Clark\u2019s \u201Cdecade of shame\u201D that she campaigned on against the National Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022299c52eaa28f40168ec1530b22e4a1d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Opposition has to make up its mind whether these facts were known in 2000, and whether the deal was a secret one. But let us at least get some consistency in the attack coming through in this respect. No, the member is wrong again on the tax law. If the income was derived during 1999-2000, the top tax rate was 33c, and the member is grossing up by the wrong amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cd16ddfd2d943b3a934806ed6375434\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Does that mean that the Acting Prime Minister is saying that the payout was received in 1999-2000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db7f749821e41d2a0099e2adfb31cf6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, what is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f73f781c854b3ba0c7abae2e860ac2\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it makes a difference in this way. If we are going to have this character stand up, attack Nick Smith for his convictions, and try to correct us, he should have to justify what he is saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e264fbfa7001467688fa75aee207ae02\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister gave an answer and he has to stand by it in this House, and he does. There are ways of dealing with that if members are not satisfied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9ec5ffe90fe40879cb1507c5e53d40f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Acting Prime Minister explain to the House, if the payment was received in the year 2001, is it taxed according to the rules in 2001, or is it taxed according to the rules when the payment was first mooted; if that is the case, can others forward-project their income to avoid higher tax rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2aea464ee324619a0b467b7c4aa1e7a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to disappoint the member showing his natural Tory instincts, but no. This is a matter in relation to when the income is derived, not when the income is received. If members are going to ask technical tax questions they had better bone up on the tax law first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225654fd431824cffb051ce5b8e9c4825\u0022\u003EWaipareira Trust\u2014Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab16199185f047f5af9e1553e6240f6f\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: What is the total amount of funding made available by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri to Te Wh\u0101nau o Waipareira Trust since 1 January 1998, and what was the purpose of this funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u002223ed3dbb58c9430c8af30a9e91d2d01a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223ed3dbb58c9430c8af30a9e91d2d01a\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the total amount of funding paid to Te Wh\u0101nau o Waipareira Trust since 1 January 1998 is $1,040,571. The funding has been provided for a range of purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022646a7a75e4d74584b49823b63dedf494\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that the Waipareira Trust putting a couple of hundred thousand dollars into Mr Tamihere\u2019s back pocket is an acceptable way to distribute some of the millions of dollars it has received from that Government agency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022943dcd58d4e14c2b80d368956ca1a4ab\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Most certainly not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf3447715b849b5bcb67ea82ad9074f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the Waipareira Trust has provided value in respect of the funding that has been provided to it by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022983d4c9eb77e411cb14b4d62d4a9ed9c\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. For example, in relation to the direct resourcing project, the trust continues to develop and test an integrated wh\u0101nau managed-care pilot. I am advised by officials that the strategy is proving very successful and is of considerable benefit to families in high need in west Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c215c65663944648485a0b68c839c5f\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister find it acceptable for a Government-funded M\u0101ori trust to finance a Labour political campaign; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f14d217fa6d49d6ac1546d585532de0\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bbc29a42a63460dac7243c77719d65f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What did he have in mind when he stated: \u201CThere\u2019s always those possibilities.\u201D in response to a question asking whether it was possible that John Tamihere had done some things that \u201Care not so honest\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7bd95ccaa94423cba68f934f7985918\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member repeat the question. I cannot quite understand it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022559489875f6444c0aaddfb20007b82b0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please repeat the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5525b8c67f2409a941583be24ad6118\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, we could not understand his response\u2014that is why we asked the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265be45bc19cd4628983c007d4405b765\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member was asked to repeat the question. That is not unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223079c72187a4b30833cd7141cb2ee22\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Minister have in mind when he stated in a recent interview \u201CThere\u2019s always those possibilities.\u201D, which was his response to a question asking whether it was possible that John Tamihere had done some things that are not so honest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227055df2f92d44221ba905b3853e80052\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I need to see the whole script and recall what that member is trying to drop in; it is just part of an interview, apparently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d14e573a7a394eb4aa413bcdc51c23da\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a transcript of a Nine to Noon interview between the interviewer and Parekura Horomia\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3dba42719b4a93830b9b8b874e3aa1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022982f2ea1a59f48fd8717ecf3d9dd0fd4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b076f8a46f74fe19a3da83959b6bd0e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that interview. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bccad3d014ce4f6ca7c97cca45cf4705\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Then I will withdraw the seeking of leave\u2014it could have been for any old interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e5e401c4b44c2b8f561f1d47c9e913\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member indicated the actual programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df27d14541f4bba807e640295adec9d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014but what day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d76e8dc3cecc42e2bde541270574c399\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Carry on, briefly\u2014the date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613253db51ee437fb3bc8c4fd126c230\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It was conducted between the Radio New Zealand Nine to Noon host and Mr Parekura Horomia, and in it he was asked: \u201CIs it possible that John Tamihere has done some things that are not so honest?\u201D, and he responded by saying: \u201CThere\u2019s always those possibilities.\u201D The question was what did he have in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4312adf548e46c1aa1ae9bf3346c366\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: With the Waipareira Trust helping those families in high need in west Auckland, does that include Mr John Tamihere and his family when he is out campaigning for the Labour Party, because \u201Csomeone has to pay for his mortgage and feed his kids\u201D; and when did this Minister first learn that the Waipareira Trust had paid for Mr John Tamihere\u2019s election campaign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d251ba0d79441eba35b16f1bcea2d66\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: No. I think it is despicable that that member should wax lyrical on members who are under duress, and bring into account in this House their family members. It is disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe4acbbc9bc44a3b9c2ac85bd299cd8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think Mr Hide, whether or not it is accidental, is asking a very, very sound question and a very reasonable one. That response from the Minister cannot, surely, be acceptable. There was no attempt to attack anyone\u2019s family, at all. He is being asked, as Minister, whether he is happy, as the head of a Government department, with money going from the taxpayer towards paying for someone\u2019s campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276178baeb4e14c0daf47c2cb1005541f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first word the Minister said was \u201CNo.\u201D I thought that addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022948d01e85db54c34ab8512b3732b6b3d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That is my point. He said \u201CNo.\u201D, and if he had left it at that it would have been fine, but then he launched into a tirade against Mr Hide for even asking the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd47bb6521e44c2497962dc637c5c272\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that part of the tirade was irrelevant, and in fact it was probably out of order. But as far as the question is concerned, it was addressed and a direct answer was given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f97fbd90c154f4faa25b46ce0ab83d1\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There was also a second part of my question, which I am sure the House is interested to know the answer to, and it was when did Mr Parekura Horomia first learn that the Waipareira Trust was funding John Tamihere\u2019s campaign, when he was campaigning on behalf of the Labour Party in 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022510fad06728b4449a81114f368b80097\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked a series of questions. The member addressed one of them, and that is quite satisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d2a7c71b084a2dbd6e421ac1ee859f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. So you are saying to this House that it is acceptable that the Minister answered \u201CNo.\u201D, and that as the Minister, because of embarrassment, did not answer the second limb of the question, the Opposition has to burn another question asking it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296496b953b7042d68951bc5cc8584e7c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not saying that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220631ee20bdd5451e9f793087b30bcedd\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: That member is making an assumption. Those matters are currently the subject of a ministerial inquiry, the terms of reference of which were announced yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8feac5ce9694e2fbb85f325287be9a2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Hide\u2019s question was when did the Minister learn, and is he happy with what he learnt. It is that simple. He has answered one part of it, but he will not answer the first part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225327d8e60dcf4f9ca579be5377ab94ae\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As far as I am concerned, the Minister has now expanded on his answer. He has given two answers to that particular question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e664fed0ad3e44b1bb4e751e305ab2c1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Do we assume, then, if you accept that answer, that the Minister is saying he will wait for the inquiry to tell him when he first knew about the election expenses being paid by the Waipareira Trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ccf68ac35db4f09bc02b23452bd7f6c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. It is part of debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3a43c85b3824eacb677ade958ea5bea\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You might recall that during the Watergate inquiry there was a headline \u201CWhat didn\u2019t the President know, and when did he know it?\u201D. This is identical here. The Minister has been asked when did he know and first learn about this. At no part have I heard any date or an answer that states: \u201CWell, I didn\u2019t know until later, or yesterday, or last month.\u201D That would be acceptable, but the Minister has said nothing at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022018350a6bcb64afd801adfa3d14b73cf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If that had been the question, then I would have expected the Minister to address it. The Minister answered the first part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f34f32ce8b6e4281a203790b196e1b34\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept full responsibility for Mr Tamihere\u2019s actions as Associate Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8cfa24f5da240b89a39c6d65031e62d\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Within his portfolio, yes. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c90ca5a3ce4ebaba301f4b8212a050\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: There they go. Someone yells out, but it does not seem to matter to you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022196e3024f6fd493d9326be679c34c666\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please sit down. I will discipline the House, not the member. I first heard an interjection from this side of the House, then heard one from that side of the House. I decided to ignore both. That is my prerogative. Please ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e9de790e328478395fc39ab96c21f5b\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Minister first learn that the Waipareira Trust had paid for John Tamihere to campaign for the Labour Party, and pay for his election expenses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d7461956551440994b953e7be8db97a\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: The member is assuming that it paid for those. It is yet to be proved. On the other matter, I learnt as much as he did, at about the same time as a whole lot of other people in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca941476c35b4b09a41c6cc42bd17778\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is one piece of progress here, and it is this: clearly, Parekura Horomia does not accept John Tamihere\u2019s word, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227125855a1c204eb782fbf0e66d11fd1c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. I am getting tired of the member raising points of order that are not points of order. That most certainly was not one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228254615c3b3d4d438448ae53d50ebdf8\u0022\u003ESustainable Farming Fund\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2e054a459794184aa8c234c5de96c74\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What reports, if any, has he received on the success of the Sustainable Farming Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022751e52bb5b7c4ed79626a8ea92318543\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022751e52bb5b7c4ed79626a8ea92318543\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I have received an assessment of the benefits arising from the Sustainable Farming Fund projects undertaken by Business and Economic Research Ltd. It has found the actual and potential benefits to be between $300 million and $500 million per annum from a sample of projects. This makes the Government\u2019s investment of about $10 million a year more than worthwhile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1fd473b795f4421bc1727ec83d74273\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: How likely is it that those potential benefits will be achieved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d29487ba73d4a88ae52a3ab2412f4bb\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Business and Economic Research Ltd assesses the likelihood of that as high, because of the high regard in which the fund is held, and the way it works\u2014that is, by requiring significant community and stakeholder involvement, which is increasing producer and community capability and cohesion. The fund was established because of a Labour Party election promise, and demonstrates the Government\u2019s commitment to fostering growth and opportunities in our rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a41b2907666b4c15b40151808609e9b4\u0022\u003EIan Ewen-Street\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Sustainable Farming Fund used to encourage the fencing and planting of the riparian margins of streams passing through farmland, in order to decrease the impact of effluent and fertiliser runoff on water quality; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0770cf9ce0f4a47bb97b88c702b8e95\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot say\u2014because over 300 projects have been funded\u2014whether there have been projects on that specific topic, but I think it quite likely that there have been. Certainly, applications covering all such areas could be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221efacee75aae4e75be632f3c860dcabf\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd03814f90f3469a8936d9620f7df59d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd03814f90f3469a8936d9620f7df59d\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table the Waipareira Trust\u2019s expenditure on Mr John Tamihere\u2019s election campaign, including payment for a speeding ticket he got when racing to a meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ab30e83ac8449789412102aed39fb0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bccdf71dcff843b4a1eadd6d0d843de7\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table Mr John Tamihere\u2019s electoral return, which makes no mention of the expenditures that the Waipareira Trust made on his behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e13c5c3fe94569abdc4cba5c994ed6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that return. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223be6e0fe3fc04ae38bce961b4f8053c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223be6e0fe3fc04ae38bce961b4f8053c1\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are probably going to rule that this is not a strict point of order, but it is certainly a matter of keeping order in the House, inasmuch as Parliament should be a place where integrity is on display. The Acting Prime Minister has been out in recent days saying to people: \u201CIf you\u2019ve got allegations about John Tamihere, if you\u2019ve got information about John Tamihere, then lay it on the table. Give it to those who are investigating this matter.\u201D Yet Rodney Hide has just tried to lay information on the Table\u2014not some trumped up bit of stuff he has made up, but actual information relevant to this investigation\u2014and Mr Mallard wants to say that the House cannot see it. Is that open government? Is that an honest position for the Acting Prime Minister to be taking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00221dad30d1fb5b4b5e8fef19bccfc8ba44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dad30d1fb5b4b5e8fef19bccfc8ba44\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E It would be very helpful if it were simply pointed out that the material being sought to be tabled is Mr Tamihere\u2019s election return. That is already available in the public arena, and this side of the House refuses leave automatically for matters that are already in the public arena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d4ed2cdea74e949a20abab726cdc7a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No member is obliged to agree to a document being tabled, and Mr Brownlee should know that. [Interruption] That interjection is out of order. The member is lucky; I am generous, having heard his good contribution last evening!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022174ce5fd56d7481cb6e4b320da5679b0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6eafc4cb9e84a789ecf05295d051733\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6eafc4cb9e84a789ecf05295d051733\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a point of order. It is not a speech but it will take a little bit of your time, and I ask your indulgence to hear me out before I ask my question. It relates to Standing Order 366. On 14 October I wrote to you seeking your assistance and advice regarding the failure of the Minister of Police to answer five specific written questions on time in accordance with Standing Order 366. I now seek further assistance from you in respect of parliamentary question No. 13998, which was referred to in that letter, which was lodged on 21 September and answered on 6 October. That question related to current response times to 111 calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e67816b6ea64d9595b3c6b7828112c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222800acb823394f86b9fc8fcd9ddf9906\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I asked your indulgence, Mr Speaker. In the Minister\u2019s answer, which was late, he told me that the information could be found in the yet-to-be-released 2004 annual report\u2014which, as it turned out, was not made available until 14 October. There are two points of concern: firstly, that report does not give the current response times; it gives last year\u2019s. Secondly, I would like your ruling on the practice of deferring answers in such a manner. This sets a precedent, whereby I, as a future Minister, might be able to tell that member in answer to a parliamentary question that the answer he seeks will be given in a report yet to be released, in 11 months\u2019 time. I am seeking your assistance to ensure that Ministers do not show such cavalier disregard for the procedures of this House, and that Opposition members are protected from such delaying tactics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226679f18ec864ccd9700e295ef3758a2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A part of that was a point of order, and I will certainly have a look at that matter, and if necessary come back to the member. Members can criticise Minister\u2019s practice in debate. There is nothing wrong with that. But I will have a look at the matter that the member has asked me to have a look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022801388a75700485bb6ee61b9568460b4\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u2014Fay Richwhite\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00227a45e4dda5cc440aa26ddc594653dcbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a45e4dda5cc440aa26ddc594653dcbf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In the interests of fairness and disclosure of documents, I seek leave to table three press statements: one from the Labour Party, one from the New Zealand National Party, and one from the ACT party attacking Fay Richwhite\u2019s dealings with Tranz Rail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022080d89fe103c4be886d1797104fe71af\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those three documents. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b51cf18cc3f147858a4a5bbb1c74b602\u0022\u003EPolice, Commissioner\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248172199033b45c7a165e84c6c5a974b\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does he have confidence in the police commissioner; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u002283172dd7bb674aeebfdf32ffadca34ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283172dd7bb674aeebfdf32ffadca34ac\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because under this Commissioner of Police, New Zealand\u2019s crime rate is the lowest since 1983, and high resolution rates have been achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022484194d9854548debed0434ff1ca116f\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does the basis for the Minister\u2019s confidence in the commissioner lie also in the fact that in the last fiscal year, only 76 percent of 111 calls were answered within the stipulated 10 seconds, and only 71 percent of priority one calls were attended within the 10-minute deadline; does that justify the $70,000 pay hike the commissioner received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221096bc3a22184316926079a88bcce0c7\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There were 495,989 111 calls nationally and, of course, there were also other calls. The police have been improving their performance. They are not satisfied with it as yet, nor am I.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edf7b488a85c49c49e1ba3c943f4158a\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Under whose instruction did the Commissioner of Police approach Dr Pita Sharples, who had served the New Zealand Police for 32 years as a cultural adviser, and ask him to stand down from that position; and what was the reason?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e893569d52b947118662008a11e5b02a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is wide of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022547dfb6b2d2e4d35b4c52da73c93e8a5\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the details of the reason but I suspect that it was because of his political role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022621942ee39bc45c1bd87287944ca8eac\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What confidence can the public have in a commissioner who allows traffic patrols to silently sit idle, not responding to priority one calls; and is that not one reason why one-third of all people who have had contact with the New Zealand Police said they are not satisfied with the service, as reported in the Minister\u2019s own report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5865fd4335489d95c4d6636e073bd7\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Police have been improving dramatically under this Government. The results are better. When one has a look at where crime was, one sees that it is now down to the same rate as it was in 1983. That member should be congratulating the New Zealand Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230466e55d6794f3a864c25e70e01b2f7\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: How long has it been Government policy that people having political involvement are asked to stand down from their positions more than a year out from an election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d4138db247f404e9c5c09ae2e4219fd\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that information, but I think the New Zealand Police acted correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ebc08abd4e3476590ba380976bbf675\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek some guidance from you. The Minister said that the New Zealand Police\u2019s performance has improved. These two pages show they have not met last year\u2019s targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d838d891d2e44fa087e3e6842596a900\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226083de4235e8420b815b8710f735639b\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is that he is misleading the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022391ca3b25e89476aab1549a02ccbdcac\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. That is a matter the member can raise with me by letter if he wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5d51cf678044c37b94cfbf8303dd8aa\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table pages 44 and 45, which completely contradict everything the Minister just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bfa3feb078f4bd98dce25c696b00c7c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those pages. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e161cb4b71bb49449cea3405d89e3886\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Corporation\u2014Family Violence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022621743abe77b415ca842a587053e7a0d\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Does she stand by her statement in the House on 13 October 2004 that Mr Steve Longford \u201Cappealed to ACC because of his outstanding work in the area of family violence injury prevention\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00220b8338a4cfc24a84bc48f33b46618585\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b8338a4cfc24a84bc48f33b46618585\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I am advised that one of Mr Longford\u2019s areas of expertise is in assisting practitioners to identify and investigate child safety issues through the use of behavioural intelligence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ca4cfa26a0747538209c95017a8f752\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that Mr Longford\u2019s profile on both the Bold Perspectives Shared Objectives website of the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) and the website of Mr Longford\u2019s own company makes no mention of his expertise in family violence prevention; if so, what information does the ACC have that verifies his expertise in that area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea8159ff1e624abf893123d5a809cbfa\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: That information was drawn to my attention by the member\u2019s contribution in the general debate last week. Until then I had not checked Mr Longford\u2019s personal website. One of the ways I can confirm his expertise, or relieve the member\u2019s anxiety, is by assuring her of the validity of the advice that I received and reported to the House last week, and also by advising the House that Mr Longford has been engaged by Government agencies in Australia in the area of child safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294257774ad7b4c5ab58828c62a8f0943\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s response to yesterday\u2019s editorial in the Dominion Post on the matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293ab5790562c47ce950b623416c35cc6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the editorial\u2019s statement that detecting fraud is part of the ACC\u2019s job, and I strongly support that role. What the editor failed to reflect in the editorial is that I was advised, and reported to the House, that fraud detection is not the purpose of Mr Longford\u2019s visit. This does not undermine my commitment to the detection and prevention of fraud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c591857305d4a74876b68c9d5c839da\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that Mr Longford\u2019s speech at the Australian Rehabilitation Providers Association conference in March this year was entitled \u201CDetecting deception through behavioural intelligence\u201D, and can she assure the House that that will not be the primary focus of his speech to the Bold Perspectives, Shared Objectives conference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022302045bbbccc4dbd893a66e99f5ed524\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b4cd430fdd42aa8854efd15c1ccbf4\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: How does it help accident victims\u2019 rehabilitation from injury if they are living in fear that their case managers are more concerned to profile them as potential criminals or malingerers than to support them in their rehabilitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e908ae32552349a294d6147b7d4d566e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: They may do well to reflect on the changes in the legislation, which ensure that rehabilitation is legislatively defined and does not meet the outcomes that member is alluding to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224152e488cd5642b0b8a6666901aa5b4c\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Does the ACC have any commercial relationship with Mr Steve Longford or with any company with which he is associated, other than arrangements around the conference that is coming up; if so, what is that relationship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022644f190f6fb542e08b476aa1b1abeb7d\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the ACC does not have any commercial arrangement with Mr Longford. The only engagement it has with him is the invitation to the conference as a speaker next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226436c55b211c488c96f81c13e2a9d227\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Information Technology\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c90cd5d9ac34b9896a056c5d90ce19e\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What steps is he taking to improve the use of information communications technology in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022499ade2027e44986a39ab06dbd695ae9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022499ade2027e44986a39ab06dbd695ae9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E From the middle of next year, every school in New Zealand will have access to high-speed broadband Internet through Project Probe. With the final Probe contract signed, the Government has invested $48.3 million in the project. This investment will boost education and economic development across New Zealand, and is an important part of our strategy to grow a more innovative economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b88dacc32d4f38a69fdcabab2a8758\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: How will he ensure that teachers are given the opportunity to improve their information and communications technology skills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ef6460a50734a699aacb2d8d2f74969\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Through a variety of methods. Next year we will fund 10 E-Learning fellows. The teachers will be released from their teaching duties for a year to undertake research and to explore new and innovative ways of meeting students\u2019 needs. We are also investing almost $10 million per year in information and communications technology professional development cluster programmes, and around 21,500 laptops have been distributed to teachers and principals through the laptop for teachers scheme. I should say that all those initiatives are in the group that the National Party has said it would scrap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a698cf5a0391414bbc7b324477de6b25\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister asked his colleague the Minister for Information Technology to brief him on the potential benefits of non-proprietary software in terms of saving for his ministry and accessibility for schoolchildren, if New Zealand were to follow the lead of a number of other countries and move schools over to Linux operating systems; if not, will he do so in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0e4de0184dc493cba9cea784abaa00d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think I have briefed that member on that issue on a number of occasions. I am well aware of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebe3ca57409f45208e7e4d33da285de3\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Is reducing the cost of information and communications technology not the biggest step to improve the use of information and communications technology in schools; if so, what is his response to the letter he received on Friday from Mr John Needham, board chair, and Mr John Inger, principal of Morrinsville College, stating that: \u201CThe reality is that we simply cannot afford to replace or lease existing computers, let alone add more to our networks, without moving further into debt.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc69fe793f54a5687dd43f511a97cae\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think that it is fair to say that I have not got to that letter yet, but probably my response will be that they are substantially better off under this Government, by about 10 percent real operations grant funding per student.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6b1a8e956c047eeaab89fec4f9ae5c7\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that I should have raised it immediately that the Minister answered, but I was just digesting his answer. I ask for clarification of his answer, because I was not clear whether he was saying that he had briefed me, which I do not think he has done, or whether he has briefed the Minister for Information Technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e4ad526ffab41ca9660271d0dd8441f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member that the member referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a952336ac4947c198e4fd9e11c2367b\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Do any of the programs supplied to schools have spellcheckers, and how are they to be used?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8ae0cd94c6547208d34c6afdf045102\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they do. I know that at least one of the programs does. They are relatively easy to use. I would recommend them to members of the House, especially the Opposition education spokesperson, who sent out a press statement last week with not one, but two, spelling mistakes in it\u2014that is the party of high education standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfbb3e81c8834d99aed26bc2748301da\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that an important step to improve the use of information and communications technology in schools is to improve the safety of information and communications technology; if so, when will he support the installation of firewalls on school computers, especially in light of a recent school computer audit that revealed that one-quarter of all such computers contained inappropriate material?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207d80fce10064d848b52bd3e0f952aa3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to accept by implication the allegations of fact in the member\u2019s question, but the question of Internet safety is something that this Government is dealing with as a matter of priority, as far as schools are concerned. We have put extensive funding into the Internet safety group, which is regarded as a world leader in this area, and I think that some of the people who are chipping should not throw stones too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7013b2deea049ec9da6b2f308416b28\u0022\u003ELocal Government\u2014Election Results\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241b708fc0e334237b5f60890ec31a011\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: What advice has he received about when seven councils and 18 district health boards will get results for the local body elections that took place 10 days ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddfd07e32fe645f8b1d0715ff0d8cfba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddfd07e32fe645f8b1d0715ff0d8cfba\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The advice I have received is that the software problem seems to have been addressed and that KPMG and the office of the Auditor-General are now auditing the processes. Electoral officers will subsequently declare the final results. The first of those results is expected very shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efce6ceebced4e5f98e37e4461452d8e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister not believe that the hundreds of candidates affected and the millions of people who are waiting to know the results deserve better from the Minister of Local Government than a statement that the results may be out soon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022947ef6c9ce934c98bd7826e29001b037\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Like all New Zealanders, I am keen to see the results come out. But, as with the results in Australia, assessing the results is a complicated process. The Australians are still waiting for their results, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79c690be466452594acca98028b321e\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: How many local authorities have completed their elections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022893d53b1a5e344cca7bdf8c02af48607\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Seventy-nine of the 86 local authorities have declared or are about to declare their final results. The 79 local authorities include three that have successfully used single transferable voting (STV).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d244046fa9408cb1c776525a834ccf\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Were the recent district health board elections, which were required to use the STV option by Government direction, meant to be a local, democratic process; if so, why were so many rural districts almost completely disenfranchised, and why have over 100,000 New Zealanders had their votes disallowed and binned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f2dea28a1da4324ad045c8f4927ee2d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government believed, and still believes, that STV will produce representation in district health boards that is comprehensive for the whole community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c15385917bd4fcaa17b8fa011d953b2\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: When those results do finally come out, will the Minister conduct an inquiry to see whether the STV system has delivered some of the objectives that were promised of it; if not, will he then consider scrapping that crazy system for future elections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f036df3ff5c4d5985a27e66f4350ade\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I will wait with keen interest the report of the Justice and Electoral Committee, which will look at those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd4b822ae1824583ab8fe7aa7e237be6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What is the reason for the further delay, when David Allen, chief executive officer of New Zealand Post, said that the stuff-up by Datamail was corrected last Wednesday; is it that Datamail has further failed, or is there now a problem with Electionz.com?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d90444b5147848c3b4236c0b32fe1732\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my primary answer, Datamail has assured me that it has corrected the electronic problem. There is now a process whereby the Auditor-General\u2019s office is checking the integrity of the process. It is very important that all people have confidence that the counting of this vote is an accurate one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291932646da742abbbdf105971b7680a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility does the Minister bear for the worst-ever local body election in New Zealand\u2019s history when this is the first election run under the new Local Electoral Act, which was trumpeted by Labour and passed in 2001?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc7b8753f3744e7c8c087c1ea84c19b3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am confident that we will learn from the mistakes that have been made this time and ensure that a better process takes place next time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226695356f3e244486a9848a247d766f13\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the statement by New Zealand Post that the results would have been available last weekend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d84b1d3ec89749e1914aa44a022094e1\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022978ed5b8a11f49f58305e008c57e6769\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u2014Local Government Elections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb086aea8d374692af1dfbd0f2437d6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb086aea8d374692af1dfbd0f2437d6b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My colleague, Jim Peters, put in a letter twice last week on this very issue. I am seeking your guidance. If he puts in a letter tomorrow, is there any chance of a debate\u2014noting the Minister\u2019s answers in question time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c64f17703699427aa3c34a25a20f77e2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022050bd410af244485a82211333e401dad\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022daf4c812cdb744608796c685800ec986\u0022\u003EMember for Tamaki Makaurau\u2014Standing Down as Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022314e25070a784f00861eb21b5b2c57c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022314e25070a784f00861eb21b5b2c57c1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received two letters from Rodney Hide seeking debates under Standing Order 373. The first relates to the standing down of the Hon John Tamihere as a Minister. The second relates to the inquiry into allegations surrounding Mr Tamihere and the Waipareira Trust. Both letters relate to particular matters of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility and I would have been inclined to accept either one. In these circumstances the application first received by me is the one that will take priority. However, as the two cases are interrelated, members will be able to refer to the inquiry in debating the standing down of the Minister. I therefore accept the application relating to the standing down of the Hon John Tamihere. I call on the member to move the appropriate motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00226fb472ab8183460d9be91f25b2de5afd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fb472ab8183460d9be91f25b2de5afd\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance. Helen Clark, Prime Minister of New Zealand\u2014remember the promise; see the result. This is what Helen Clark said in 1999: \u201CThe Labour Government will set new standards\u201D. That is what Helen Clark promised\u2014she promised new standards, and we have seen new standards. Then she said that the Labour Government would set new standards \u201Cboth in terms of behaviour and performance\u201D. It has. We have seen a whole new level of performance and behaviour from this Government. Then the Prime Minister Helen Clark went on to say, \u201Cso that we govern for the people and are accountable to them.\u201D That was the promise. Look at the result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHere is another Helen Clark promise from Hansard of 8 February 2000, in her address as Prime Minister:\u201CThis Government wants to abandon the culture of golden handshakes negotiated in secrecy, and\u201D\u2014members will love this one\u2014\u201Cto abandon the culture of paying people for doing nothing.\u201D That was the promise. Yet John Tamihere was paid $195,000 by the Waipareira Trust, which, it is said, was net\u2014after tax. John Tamihere thought that the Waipareira Trust was paying the tax. So at the 39c tax rate, that would make the gross amount of that golden handshake $320,000. Members should remember that this is not a large Government department or some big corporate; this is a little trust, which the Labour Party pretends to represent, that helps the poor and downtrodden of west Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMichael Cullen says that it might have been paid before he put up the tax rate, in which case the tax rate was 33c. That would make the payment $291,000 gross. Is that OK? Is that what Helen Clark is now saying? Because that is what she is telling the New Zealand people. I want to remind the New Zealand people of something else that Helen Clark put out: \u201CA decade of shame\u2014today\u2019s reason why National must go.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHere are the golden handshakes: Bryan Mogridge $200,000; Michael Wall $140,000; Douglas Blackmur from the New Zealand Qualifications Authority $160,000; Roger Estall $68,000\u2014that was terrible; Jean Martin $30,000 to $50,000\u2014how bad was that? Then there was Ian Collinson from Solid Energy $200,000. Now there is another name to add to the list\u2014John Tamihere, with a golden handshake of $320,000 from a trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut it gets worse for Helen Clark. She thinks it is OK to have a Minister who campaigned in 1999 on saying that he would not take this golden handshake. I warmed to the guy; the people of New Zealand warmed to this guy. Here was a politician who would set new standards, along with Helen Clark. He was turning down a golden handshake, and the people flocked to the Labour Party because it was a party of standards. We had heard from Helen Clark that there would be no more golden handshakes. We had heard it from John Tamihere, who said he would not take one, even if it was offered to him. He would turn it down, as he was a man of great integrity. What do we now know happened? John Tamihere went around the back and started hassling for his golden handshake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt gets worse for Helen Clark. She said that it was OK. That is not contested. None of that is contested. Everyone knows that John Tamihere got the golden handshake. They have accepted that. They are only worried about whether he thought the tax had been paid and whether the amount he received was a net amount. But they all know that he had said he would not take it. So it is OK now, in this Government, to say one thing and do another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut it gets worse. We heard from Minister Parekura Horomia. He said that the Waipareira Trust should not have been spending money on John Tamihere while he campaigned for office. We heard from that Minister, who said that he did not think the trust should have been paying for John Tamihere\u2019s election expenses, on behalf of the Labour Party. Well, that Minister is exactly right about what happened there because, as John Tamihere asked, if the Waipareira Trust was not paying for him, who would be paying his mortgage? Who would be feeding his kids? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat does Helen Clark say about all that? What does the Acting Prime Minister, Michael Cullen, say about all that? They say that it is OK. They will keep him on the pay and perks of a Minister, but remove all his responsibilities. They told him to go and hide in Henderson for a while, and to bury his head\u2014because Labour is a Government that says one thing and does another. Helen Clark said that this Government was going to close the gaps. That is why it poured money into things like the Waipareira Trust. Well\u2014close the gaps! She has opened the gaps: John Tamihere got a $320,000 golden handshake. But wait, there is more. They gave him a car\u2014oh, it is tough being a Labour MP\u2014and, because he was struggling, paid for the insurance on his car. When we look at that Labour Party, we might say \u201CSurely not!\u201D, because John Tamihere would fill all that out in his ministerial return\u2014would he not? Prime Minister Helen Clark would demand that, would she not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284cc2acc268b4513935771c8e0597f38\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: It is in the Cabinet Manual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a639fee00d425e8786b6b8ca4283dc\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: But if we pick up the Cabinet Manual for that year, what does it have for John Tamihere? A nil return. He put in nothing. So what is this Government saying to the people of New Zealand? It is saying that that is OK. And we learn that when it came to paying tax, Mr John Tamihere was confused. He thought that the $195,000 was a net amount. He must have been confused also when he filled out his election return. He did not realise that as a taxpayer it is absolutely the taxpayer\u2019s responsibility to ensure that he or she pays income tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo Helen Clark is saying that when small-business people in New Zealand get paid, they should just say: \u201COh, I thought that that was the net amount.\u201D It worked for John Tamihere; he did not even lose his job over it. We cannot say that John Tamihere should not understand these things, because he is a lawyer, for goodness\u2019 sake! He was the chief executive officer of an organisation receiving $8 million a year, and he is the Minister for Small Business, for Helen Clark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI have no faith in Helen Clark\u2019s inquiry, because, in her own words, she has already done several inquiries. Mike Williams, the president of the Labour Party, said that this was old ground and that it had all been done over before\u2014as though the Labour Party knew all this. Well, here is something about Helen Clark. Mr Winston Peters asked her whether Mr Tamihere had disclosed to her that he had pleaded guilty to two charges of forgery and two charges of uttering, and he also asked when she learnt of that information. Here is the answer. On 26 July 2000 Helen Clark told Parliament: \u201CApproximately 5 years ago Mr Tamihere\u2019s counsel, at Mr Tamihere\u2019s request, briefed me fully on the general matters the member is alluding to, and I saw the full statement of defence.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWell, I am pleased to report\u2014happily\u2014that I have the full statement of defence. I also have the captioned summary for the charge that the police laid against John Tamihere. It is headed: \u201CForgery, as per attached information x 2\u2014penalty, 10 years\u2019 imprisonment; uttering, forged documents x 2\u2014penalty, 10 years\u2019 imprisonment\u2014heard in the Auckland District Court on 13 September 1994.\u201D It states: \u201CPrior to August 1989 the defendant, Mr John Tamihere, on behalf of the trustees, applied to the Housing Corporation for a loan and grants to a total of $160,000, to enable three retirement units to be built on a reservation on part of the land farmed by the Mataroa Incorporation.\u201D I think that Mr Speaker was Minister of Housing at the time, having just taken over from Helen Clark. It then goes on to state that on 21 May 1990 the documents\u2014namely, the licence to occupy and the deed of agreement, acknowledgment of debt\u2014were forwarded to the Housing Corporation. The documents purported at that time to have been signed by the trustees as required. It was subsequently established that at least two of the signatures on each of the two documents had been forged. The signatures concerned are those of Mr Tony Paparangi and Mr Ernest Hauraki. The signatures were forged by the defendant, who also signed the documents as having witnessed the signatures. At the time of the signing, the defendant had no lawful authority to sign on their behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHe signed two documents to obtain $160,000. He pleaded guilty to that, and the Prime Minister said she knew all about it in 1995, because she said she had the full statement of defence in her hand. But then again, Prime Minister Helen Clark is hardly one who can make too much of a song and dance about forging documents, is she. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo now we know the standard of this Government: it is OK to forge documents and become a Cabinet Minister; it is OK to say one thing to the public of New Zealand\u2014\u201CI will not accept a golden handshake.\u201D\u2014it is OK to take money from the Waipareira Trust and use it to campaign for the Labour Party; and it is OK to say that one was confused about one\u2019s tax and never paid it. What will Helen Clark do? She will say to go and hide out in Henderson for a while, but keep the parliamentary pay, keep the ministerial pay, and keep the perks. That is the standard of Helen Clark in this Government. I say that we on this side of the House have no faith in any Government inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d4c838acb02409cacf6d05d151c80fd\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Tuku Morgan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291218eab2ee340c4b8c2d64e7bfcacb3\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is calling out about Tuku Morgan. Compared to this, Tuku went shopping at The Warehouse. That is what this can be compared to. Tuku Morgan was stingy, compared to John Tamihere\u2019s having to cover his mortgage and feed his kids. Tuku Morgan was a shopper at The Warehouse\u2014and did we not hear Helen Clark complain about that! All the accounts of Aotearoa Television had to be made public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E Well, I say this: Tuku paid his tax; John Tamihere did not. I say to Helen Clark that this is her responsibility. It is the standard that she has set in Government. I do not have faith in any inquiry that is not totally independent of Helen Clark, and why do I say that? Because as the Prime Minister said: \u201CThere have been many inquiries under me, as Prime Minister, and they found nothing.\u201D I say that if we do not go looking, we will not find it. I suggest to the Government that it sack John Tamihere today, and send a very strong signal about the standard for any Government of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMy second point is that the Government should instruct for a judicial inquiry into this matter, because, to date, the inquiries that Helen Clark has set up have totally failed in their undertakings. Helen Clark should send a simple signal. She is the one who campaigned for new standards. Are they new standards below anything we have ever seen in the history of New Zealand, or are they standards of some note? When one of her Ministers promises the electorate: \u201CI would not take that money\u201D, and wins votes accordingly, that is held to account. Every time a Minister stands up and answers a question in this House, or tells the media something, are we to assume that that is the truth, or is it an answer like the one John Tamihere gave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022722eb6ee83a34d02b2871c3eeb4a8a3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022722eb6ee83a34d02b2871c3eeb4a8a3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E As the member rightly said: \u201CIf you don\u2019t go looking, you won\u2019t find anything.\u201D, and I think that one or two of my colleagues might be starting to take that advice just a bit seriously about one or two other people in the House. There might be some interesting issues around a few million shares that somebody happened to have only a short time after leaving Parliament, having been here for many years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI do not anticipate taking my full 15 minutes today, but I do want to say that if that was the best that counsel for the prosecution can do, acting on behalf of the ACT party, in cohorts with the M\u0101ori Party, then I do not think John Tamihere has an awful lot to be afraid of, arising out of this particular affair. That was one of the weakest attacks I have ever seen in these kinds of circumstances. Even Dr Brash could have done better than that, and that is about as low as one can go in that regard. He rested almost his entire case, apart from dredging up ancient history and reading it out in great amounts, on misrepresenting almost everything said by the Prime Minister, or me, or the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. What we did learn was that the statesman role has been cast aside\u2014well and truly. The ACT party is 2 percent in the polls. It is clear that there is only one way up\u2014and this is the way to go because there are certain kinds of animals that go up only in that particular way. What we certainly do know is that Dr Jekyll has disappeared and the real Mr Hide has reappeared as of this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis Government did indeed set new standards, and that is why Mr Tamihere has stood aside. Can members imagine this happening under the National Government\u2014Minister after Minister after Minister, guilty of serious offences and serious breaches of public faith, not standing aside but carrying on with every excuse made about their actions? Serious allegations have been made against Mr Tamihere, and they are serious allegations taken seriously by the Government, but it behoves\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f02dca755f1c4433ba0ceb18904e4fa1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Aw!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4f2920bddc4391bf6a23f562484ea5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I will come back to that member in a minute, because unfortunately I now have the documentation on him. I will come to him a little later on. The allegations are taken seriously by the Government and it has therefore set up an inquiry. The first move by the Opposition was to try to slander Douglas White QC. I am looking at the face of the once-hopeful leader of the ACT party. He knows Mr Douglas White very well. Any notion that Mr Douglas White is in the pocket of a Labour-led Government is really so farcical as to be absolutely absurd. I just wish those members would say that kind of thing outside the House, but of course they will not do that because they lack the unparliamentary word to make that possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThere are issues in front of the inquiry. First: what was the nature of the payment? Members are loving the term \u201Cgolden handshake\u201D. Well, they should read the Waipareira Trust press statement today. It came from Mr Eynon Delamere, and he is not a stooge of the Labour Party. He is part of the other group within the Waipareira Trust, and he has no love for Mr John Tamihere. He does not say it was a golden handshake. He does not say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9236c10a230488e9b7b130231d3aebf\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: It was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a802e5ea73d49889cfd823267d30604\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! It was, because Mr English knows better. That is why he is sitting where he is instead of over there. The second issue is: what was the responsibility for the payment of tax? That is as much a technical issue as any other. It is obvious that members opposite do not understand what the law is. They do not understand what derivation of income is, and what year it applies to. They do not understand any of those issues. That is why we have a QC conducting the inquiry, not one of the members opposite. There is the issue of the vehicle and the insurance thereon, and when the payment ended in that particular respect. There is the issue of the election return. I did notice with amusement that TV3 said that the law on election returns was very clear. That could be said only by somebody who has never done one in the past. There is also the issue of payments being made by Mr Tolich and what those payments went to. Mr Tamihere assures me that he has answers on those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f38bdfbf71cc47659537d7c7739faa21\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you trust him? Where is he then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222833c25fd2b24c3a91ebd6a54b7f8d6f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I would not trust the member further than I could throw him\u2014and despite the fact that I go to the gym five times a week, I could not throw him very far. In fact, when the member was speaking, and I had this vision of him in boxer shorts, I was inclined to leave the House and not try to speak at all in the debate. Our view is that these accusations are not to be dismissed lightly, and are not to be taken as proven before all the evidence and the explanations are to hand. The Tory parties do not take that view on natural justice, because there is nothing natural and nothing just about either the National Party or the ACT party. All matters will be fully considered\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ae5fa348fb4462a89d95c097177e7d9\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: What about Tuku Morgan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228c85482df094cbeadc8842ce8140076\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that member managed to lose her mother a job. All matters will be fully considered and independently reported on, and that report will be published. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhat I hear, in this House and outside, is the sound of crackling glasshouses all over the place. Which party has deeply opposed the Members of Parliament (Pecuniary Interests) Bill, which would require MPs to make a declaration of their other assets and income? The ACT party. Why? We know why its members do not want to declare their pecuniary interests\u2014they have far too many of them, and they do not want people to look at them. Look at Mr Hide. He was asked a straight question today and gave a curly answer. He was asked whether he had received payments from businessmen outside Parliament, and he said in response: \u201CTo do anything in Parliament?\u201D\u2014a little innocent qualification to the question. Once the qualification was in, he said: \u201CNo, I haven\u2019t.\u201D Of course that leads to the obvious answer that he has received payment from businessmen outside Parliament. He had payments from business people outside this House while he was an MP\u2014and this is the counsel for the prosecution! He should be the expert witness for the prosecution on these sorts of matters, because that is about where he is in that regard. And would Mr Shirley care to assure us that nobody in the forest industry has given him any kind of remuneration, benefit, interest, or anything since he has become a member of Parliament? What a stunning silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167b1382ea6a43309fbe0513678a44ae\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022623d479e87c343cc8de729eacda65cc5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I remind members that points of order will be heard in silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220979be028e7f40b9855853bb5b489c90\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I draw your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 119/4, which was given by Speaker Hunt in 2000: \u201CAs long as the member who made a personal statement remains a member of the House, the member\u2019s personal explanation may not be debated or otherwise challenged, even where it was given in a previous Parliament.\u201D I have given a personal statement, and stated categorically to this House that I have received no remuneration for the work I did for the international forestry sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232e19aeb7f2441f7b00c2a05ce723d07\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That statement will be respected because the member gave that in this House. I stand by my previous ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273991b62d87f4dac8d33fba419296e92\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, I respect that statement that no payments were made by the international forestry sector. I ask again: did he receive any payments, any remuneration, or any interest from any aspect of the forestry industry since he became a member of Parliament? And he is silent on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe then had Mr Hide on tax. Mr Hide\u2019s allegation against Mr Tamihere is that he avoided tax. This man went to Fiji to instruct people on how to avoid tax. He made a crusade of defending one of the biggest and nastiest tax evaders in this country, Mr David Henderson\u2014\u201CHendo\u201D to the leader of the ACT party; one of his closest mates\u2014who ran the sex industry in Christchurch and avoided tax thereon, although I am sure he got no freebies out of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThen we had the issue of Dr Nick Smith. It is so terrible when people do things that get them into trouble with the law. What did happen to Dr Nick Smith? He was found to have committed contempt of court. That means that the court did not believe what he told the court. The court found that Dr Smith had not told the court what were, shall we say, the facts. That was the reality. Did he get pushed off the front bench? Did he move anywhere? Was he stood down? No, he was praised by the leader and the rest of the National Party for his actions. There really are two rules in this country for the National Party\u2014one rule for National Party members and one rule for the rest of the country. If people in the rest of the country are guilty they get punished, but if they are in the National Party they get praised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EHow has this all come about? Mr Hide has been working for some months trawling through the records of the trust and working with individuals within it who are closely connected with the M\u0101ori Party, working on behalf of the interests of those who are seeking to replace Mr Tamihere with a M\u0101ori Party MP in his electorate at the next election. The ACT party is working on the principle that \u201Cthe enemy of my enemy is my friend\u201D in this particular case. So what are the realities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221575079cc4724231b9a7154a3c4dc932\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What about public accountability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a76cac2c3efe4a3b85f99913727344ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Nick Smith asks about public accountability. He is the man who was found to have committed contempt of court and who was not believed by the court. He asks where the accountability is, from the luxury of the Opposition front bench. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EFinally, I make one gentle point to every member of this House. Before everyone in this House waxes so eloquent about severance payments, whatever they may be, I invite members to look at their own salary\u2019s determination, because even Dr Nick Smith, should he go down at the next election\u2014pray God that he does\u2014will collect 3 months\u2019 salary for doing nothing, but, then, he has been collecting a salary for doing nothing for the last couple of years, in any case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea138e45f57c4a1b92bd6a887ca896f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea138e45f57c4a1b92bd6a887ca896f1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E In the interests of openness and transparency, I seek leave to table the police caption sheet against John Tamihere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00220859d6c357844db8a30842d9031d91aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220859d6c357844db8a30842d9031d91aa\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table a copy of the document that the Prime Minister said she had seen, which is the defence of John Tamihere in the District Court at Howick in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022 data-id=\u00220b80e4a10eaa4bd0a32ba32ad57a5a64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b80e4a10eaa4bd0a32ba32ad57a5a64\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E We are debating a very serious issue today and a series of very serious allegations. The first one is that Mr John Tamihere flagrantly misled the public. That is accusation No. 1. He had said that he would not take a golden handshake, but at the same time he accepted a golden handshake that was at least $195,000 and may have been closer to $300,000. It was a blatant misleading of the public. That, in itself, should be sufficient to have this man resign from Cabinet and, indeed, resign from Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThe second accusation is that he may not have paid tax on this very substantial amount\u2014an amount that, if it was a gross pre-tax figure, was about five times the average wage, and, if it was a net figure after tax, it was about six or seven times the average wage. That is a huge amount of money on which he may not have paid tax. This is a very serious matter that in itself would suggest that Mr Tamihere should be out of Cabinet and probably out of Parliament. Then, thirdly, it is alleged that he failed to correctly file his electoral expenses return. If that is the case, and if it is established that he has spent more than his statutory limit, his election to the House is invalid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EEach one of these three accusations is sufficient to have Mr Tamihere resign from Cabinet and, indeed, resign from Parliament. So, first, we have three very serious allegations made against a Minister of this Government. Then we have the matter of quite different standards being applied by the Prime Minister. This Prime Minister is someone who required Lianne Dalziel to resign from a ministerial position immediately it was established that she had misled the public. The Prime Minister said: \u201COff with her head!\u201D. Now we have a Minister who, on the face of it, has transgressed in three serious matters, and the Prime Minister seems to be saying that that is OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EIt is the most flagrant example of this Government applying different standards to M\u0101ori Ministers than to non-M\u0101ori Ministers. That is a serious matter that I think this House should reflect on very carefully. Lianne Dalziel was out on her ear because she misled the public. John Tamihere has been asked to stand down, while continuing to draw a salary, and just to lie low for a time, despite the fact that he may have misled the public, may have failed to pay tax on a very large lump-sum amount, and may have falsified his electoral expenses return. Those are very serious accusations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThis is also the same Prime Minister who in 1999 said\u2014when she was in Opposition, of course\u2014that Labour, if in Government, would apply new standards to the performance of Government and the performance of bureaucracy. Well, we have new standards all right\u2014a new low standard that exceeds anything that we saw in the previous decade. Indeed, I cannot think of any case that is more serious than the one we are currently facing. It is a very serious accusation, even leaving aside the fact that he may have been paid this money for doing things when he was in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThe chairman of the Waipareira Trust has suggested that that was a misunderstanding and he was not really being paid to do things in the House, and, for the moment at least, I accept that comment. But even without that comment there are three things, any one of which would require him to resign if the Prime Minister had any sense of what was decent and appropriate for a Minister in a New Zealand Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThe next issue that worries me greatly is the nature of the inquiry established. I am not going to call into question the integrity of Douglas White QC, but he has been asked to undertake an inquiry with very limited powers. Indeed, we have the words of Sir Geoffrey Palmer, a former Labour Prime Minister, to confirm that. He said this morning on television: \u201CI think it is also important to say that this is not a commission of inquiry. This is not a body that will hold public hearings. It does not have the power to compel evidence and to cross-examine people; it relies on the voluntary cooperation of the people about whom the inquiry has been launched.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EWhat kind of inquiry is that? What kind of confidence can we have in the conclusions of that inquiry? Mr Douglas White QC has absolutely no statutory authority. He has absolutely no ability to subpoena witnesses or to subpoena documents or files; he has absolutely no ability to cross-examine witnesses; and he cannot look into any matter without the express permission of those being inquired into. Who does he report to? He reports to the Prime Minister, and only to the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E The inquiry is effectively powerless, and it is toothless. These allegations are so serious that we should have a proper commission of inquiry with the power to subpoena witnesses, subpoena documents, and subpoena files. This is a very serious matter. We run the risk that in 6 weeks\u2019 time, by late November, we will have the results of this so-called inquiry, and unfortunately we can have no confidence in the results of that inquiry at all. We need a proper commission of inquiry, which has the appropriate authority to look into this very serious accusation. [Interruption] Mr Mallard may not regard this as a serious matter, but it is one of the most serious accusations ever made against any Minister in this House. We have a QC who has no powers to investigate and no powers to subpoena. All he does is look at things that witnesses are willing to contribute; he has no power to subpoena at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EMy final point is this. In response to a question I asked in the House earlier this afternoon about Mr Tamihere providing a written guarantee to the Prime Minister, the Acting Prime Minister said that there had not been a written guarantee, it was simply an oral guarantee that the Minister had given to the Prime Minister a few days ago. Let me quote from page 147 of Mr Tamihere\u2019s own recently published autobiography. He states: \u201CI gave the Prime Minister a written guarantee that I had done nothing at Waipareira that would embarrass her, the party, and most importantly, my family. I gave her my Wanganui computer printout showing her my police record, and gave her written authority to access any of my financial or employment records.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThat is a written guarantee in anyone\u2019s language, and either Mr Tamihere was not quite fully accurate in his autobiography, or the Acting Prime Minister was not quite accurate in his response to my question. On the face of it Mr Tamihere has given the Prime Minister a written guarantee that he has done nothing to embarrass the Government, and it looks as if that is nothing like the truth. The public expects the Prime Minister to be consistent in her treatment of seriously offending Ministers, and so far the public is seriously disappointed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed66ef5bed6f4a2cb7d99080289d2ea4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed66ef5bed6f4a2cb7d99080289d2ea4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That photographer up there has a most important photograph. He just got Don Brash talking in the House. It will be an exclusive, and its value will be immense. But this is a terribly sad day for the M\u0101ori people in this country, an awfully sad day for New Zealand, and an even sadder day for John Tamihere. I can recall the Tuku Morgan affair and an $89 pair of underpants that he bought with his pay, after having left work one night. Helen Clark said anything and everything about that, as did Mr Mallard. There were four full-scale inquiries, and at the end there was no sin or crime found, at all. There were four full-scale inquires, and no crime at all. It is actually quite amusing, in a very sad way, but I was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs once, and I was sacked for trying to expose corruption. I said that the Quality Inn deal was a fraud, and I was fired for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e8977cebb5d4828a91c58ad1a8384b9\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: By whom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c705a2613f1c4167adc7541442ea490e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: By Jim Bolger of the National Party. It is really a matter of great interest to me that I have not heard one word from the National Party, or from ACT, about Fay Richwhite\u2019s latest deal\u2014not a murmur, not a mutter, not a syllable, and not a sound. Back in the days of the wine-box inquiry, Fay Richwhite was doing its best to shut it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAlong has come a member of Parliament who is clearly, in my view, a goner\u2014and I am sad to say that, because I have a certain view. But facts are facts, and I want to go through them. We would not be having this discussion today were it not for the fact that some time ago, in July 1999, the media of this country were alerted to the facts, and decided \u201Cbecause they wanted their party in Government\u201D that they would do nothing at all about them. They all know that. These allegations were made in this House on 27 July 1999, and that was followed up by further radio programmes outside Parliament, in which no attempt was made by me to say things in a privileged environment. I have to ask myself about the spinelessness that overcomes the New Zealand media when it does not even report what is privileged in the House, let alone what is said outside it. Let me tell members this. Back then, on 27 July 1999, I alleged that there would be a golden handshake. Two days later John Tamihere said, when he was asked whether that was usual for the Waipareira Trust and whether it was normal practice: \u201COh, it\u2019s never happened before, so I want to make a number of points clear. As of last night there won\u2019t be any severance pay.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022268387b5a5844aed82d9c4000ca6d081\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c40c29d1109b4a24bd713875c3d5d399\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: John Tamihere said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfe2b2d4d9d34ed290bcf43f0a16677c\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: When?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226423cc521d28484988f70027a0d7a9cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: On 29 July 1999. He went on to say: \u201CAs I have indicated to you this morning, as of this morning it\u2019s no longer an issue for the wh\u0101nau, Waipareira Trust, or John Tamihere.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThen John Tamihere went on to say this, when he was asked whether he would mind the real world of politics, of being a candidate, and all that: \u201CI don\u2019t mind that, but if you are going to accept these standards of so-called party politics, you\u2019ve got to get out of the gutter sooner or later. I don\u2019t really want to debase myself by running around in a sewer with Winston Peters.\u201D That is what he said. Then John Tamihere went on to say a whole lot of other things, and they were believed, of course, by the media\u2014beloved as he was by them. I remember telling Angela Gregory, a New Zealand Herald correspondent, about all that, but she thought she knew better than me. Five years later we know just how irresponsible she was when she was given all the facts\u2014the whole facts, and all the facts. Mr Tamihere knew it was not true, because there was a meeting at Taipa up in the far north on 17 April when the first proposal of $50,000 was turned down. The later proposal was for $280,000, and for a range of other issues as well. I am quoting from Hansard. He also knew it was not true, on 27 and 29 July, because on 3 May 1999, 2 months earlier in the same year, he had received this letter from the trust: \u201CT\u0113n\u0101 koa, John, re your pending resignation.\u201D It is all here; it is all out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENow let us examine what has happened today. Mr Cullen got up and acted very much like Jenny Shipley did back in July of 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea8eeef3d124fe59e6a5dc6c08ec722\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Who did that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225912919924c94e96a085dd4a78073411\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Jenny Shipley, the former National Prime Minister, did not want to know. She was asked about Government expenditure; she did not want to know. Today Mr Cullen said that there are four issues involved. He asked whether it was a golden handshake. The answer to that is, of course it was. That is why, back then, Mr Tamihere was denying it. The second issue was about tax law\u2014was it infringed? Of course it was. That is why the Government has Rob McLeod doing the work. That self-pronounced expert\u2014John Tamihere\u2014has got Rob McLeod on the case. The third issue concerns vehicle insurance, and of course that is an undeclared benefit. The fourth issue that Dr Cullen raised was about election returns. Now that is serious, because it is an incomplete return and it takes him way over the expenditure limit, for a start. That, as the Reg Boorman case of 1987 will tell members, is a corrupt practice. That is it; good night. One cent over the top, and one is gone. Now there is a funny thing about that, because back in 1987, when Roger McClay, myself, and a man called Brian Henry were handling the Wyatt Creech case, we alleged a corrupt practice on the part of Mr Boorman. Members will not believe this, but we got a phone call that night from the National Party, which was paranoid that we had brought that allegation. We asked why that was, when it was part of our pleadings. National said Labour and National had members who were over the top, and National did not want us to complicate the matter for it. That is what the National Party told me\u2014that it did not want us to complicate that matter for it. We said National could go and get stuffed. We said it was not helping Wyatt Creech and did not even believe in the case, and that we would be carrying on, regardless. That is a fact members do not know, but I am telling them now\u2014and it is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4e123eec7c446a8b8b9681d7c27f18e\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the best sort of fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f2a7bfbf0d4c1eb1204cfd1aa386d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fair sort of fact, yeah. But talk about people throwing stones, or throwing pipi in a whare\u2014this is it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThere is the issue of the payments by Mr Tolich and where they went. I think I have a clear eye as to where they went, and it will not be above board in respect of the Waipareira Trust. There are all sorts of other things, like scholarships to universities\u2014to the Auckland University of Technology, and what have you. It is all there. But I want to ask this question: why did Dr Cullen not raise the question of the falsification of application numbers to tax-paying bodies involved in training and health? So the trust overstates its application numbers and it underspends, and that is why it has all the profits for the Westgate investment. It is as clear as daylight. The second issue is this: here is an outfit that declared an unrealised sale profit, before the sale occurred, as present income. That is illegal. It was over $800,000, and it took the books from the red to the black. That is serious. Then, of course, there are the over 30 forged cheques, which the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee heard all about in the year 2000 and did nothing about\u2014and the committee heard about it from the former Waipareira Trust lawyer. It heard about the forging of cheques and the falsification of accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAll I want to say is that this is a very sad for John Tamihere, and I believe for the Labour Party and for the M\u0101ori people in particular. But those are the facts\u2014except that I would like, sometime, for the people on the Opposition side of the House to have the same keen interest when people who are not brown commit those sorts of sins. When they do it, the sin is magnified a million times over, and I sit here and I hear not a sound, not a syllable. I have to ask myself\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa45e66661cf4241b4e6be2095142e3a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fff554c76074429a15340a725c35b3e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is true, and I more than anybody else know it. [Interruption] I know it for a fact. That member has a colleague over there who was prepared to defame me, yet last Friday in the High Court in Auckland he said that whatever he had said about Winston Peters was not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThat is what he said, but that member did not raise a finger about all the other serious offences that go on in the name of this country and this Parliament. If there is going to be one law for everybody, then let us make sure that there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022bafefec52af44cbd8ccba53b91ff6a60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bafefec52af44cbd8ccba53b91ff6a60\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E A significant number of very serious accusations have been made in relation to John Tamihere\u2019s actions, both before and since he left the Waipareira Trust. It is appropriate that those be dealt with by way of a thorough investigation by someone with the appropriate expertise. The Government is therefore to be congratulated on moving swiftly to set up an inquiry, on ensuring that the terms of reference cover all known and likely accusations, and on the relatively tight time frame within which Douglas White QC must report. But let us face it\u2014the Government had no alternative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIf any of the accusations are true, then they will be of great concern not only to this Parliament but to all the people of New Zealand, and especially to taxpayers and recipients of the services provided by the Waipareira Trust. I know myself that it would have been immoral and totally unacceptable for me to have used my employer at the time, Trade Aid, to bankroll my first election campaign, especially as that organisation was in receipt of Government grants to support its work with the poor and disadvantaged. But it is not for this Parliament to act as a kangaroo court on these matters. As Dr Cullen said, we do not live in \u201CAlice in Wonderland\u201D, and therefore the sequence of events should be evidence, a verdict, and then, if appropriate, sentencing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWhatever the outcome of the formal investigation, John Tamihere has to live with having made a categorical public statement that he would not accept a golden handshake before the election, and then proceeding to accept one after the election. John Tamihere has been a role model to many people, both M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101. He has let them down, and he has let himself down. Ultimately, the public will judge Mr Tamihere on the morality, rather than the legality, of his behaviour. He should reflect on that as he makes a political decision about his future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4f90da87bb14b078b70f0c1ed0cafc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4f90da87bb14b078b70f0c1ed0cafc9\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E As the allegations about John Tamihere have unfolded over recent days I have tried to listen to them with a degree of dispassion. That has become increasingly difficult to do, because of the way that so much of the fact as it appears has been mixed with the innuendo that is fuelling a lot of the allegations that are floating around. In the time I have available to me this afternoon, I want to try to separate out some of the issues, if I can, and then to look at the likely consequences of the actions that relate to them. I want to do that against a background of making this observation: John Tamihere may well be a big loser from this whole saga, but I suspect that an even bigger loser in terms of credibility, confidence, and certainty is this Parliament. Yet again we will have shown\u2014and already this debate this afternoon has shown traces of it\u2014that when faced with a situation of the magnitude and seriousness of this one, we do not debate the issue, but, rather, we very quickly descend into a \u201CWho said what, who did what,\u201D tit for tat, back and forward \u201CIf you\u2019ve got an allegation, I\u2019ve got a better one to top it.\u201D sort of a debate. The people of New Zealand, who want to get some answers and want to get to the truth, simply say: \u201CThere they go again! I\u2019m sick of the lot of them. Why don\u2019t they all go away?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet us get back to the issues here. I think they come into two broad categories. There are the issues that relate to Mr Tamihere, and there are the issues in a wider sense that relate to the Waipareira Trust. If we take the issues that relate to Mr Tamihere, we find there are about three broad headings. There is the question of whether he accepted a golden handshake, having said he would not do so. There is the issue of the tax status of that payment. There is the question of any subsequent expenses paid to him or expectations made of him in respect of any payment advanced. The issue of the golden handshake is in some senses the least important of the three. That comes down to whether he stuck by his word\u2014and the implications of that are serious enough if he is shown not to have done so, but it is actually not a criminal offence to change one\u2019s mind. On the issue of taxation, it is a much more clear-cut case: was there a tax liability, and, if so, how was it met and what steps did Mr Tamihere take in respect of his responsibilities in that regard? The third question, the question of expenses and the associated matter revealed on television last night\u2014that any payments made to him were less of a severance or a redundancy and more of a recognition of services he was going to continue to provide to the trust while a member of Parliament\u2014is, I think, the most serious allegation of the lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe latter two questions and the question of the golden handshake deserve the full attention of an independent commission of inquiry, such as the White inquiry, because if there is an allegation arising from that that criminality is involved, then that is a matter for the courts to proceed with separately. I think what is happening here, and what concerns me not just in this particular case but as a general point of principle, is that members seem to be expecting an inquiry of some description to be the judge, jury, and executioner. What an inquiry of the nature of the one that has been established will do is to determine whether there is a basis for any further action, whether criminal or otherwise. It is very important in these types of instances not to put carts before horses but to move one step at a time, in the interests of clarity, in the interests of public decency and decorum, and in the interests of Mr Tamihere. While Mr Tamihere may well be down at the moment and quite possibly out, he has certain rights to represent himself, to have his side of the story heard, and to have his explanations proffered, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAlongside those issues, which the White inquiry will deal with, is a set of wider matters that relate to the Waipareira Trust, some of which have been rehearsed in the House this afternoon\u2014allegations such as those made on TV3 last night and those repeated by Mr Peters just a few short moments ago. I concede that it is very difficult in the heat of the moment to separate some of those things out from the particular circumstances that affect Mr Tamihere. Indeed, it may well be impossible to do so, because there may be such a close link. However, I think the point that my colleague Gordon Copeland attempted to allude to during question time today is also relevant here. Various accounting and auditing standards have not been well applied in relation to bodies of the type of the Waipareira Trust, and many others\u2014and we are not talking solely about M\u0101ori organisations here, either. The Government has been aware of deficiencies in those bodies with regard to auditing practice for many years, and the Audit Office has drawn attention to them as requiring to be rectified as a matter of some urgency. But they have not been yet addressed. I think that many of the circumstances in the second set of issues\u2014those relating to the Waipareira Trust\u2014come down to the adequacy of our control procedures and the need to move swiftly to rectify them. Any organisation that receives any form of public funding has to accept a measure of accountability. Our standards have been variable and lax in that respect for far too long. This will not be the last such case of its type to arouse the attention of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe issue that we then need to address is what all of that does for the integrity not just of Mr Tamihere\u2014that is a matter he has to wrestle with and reach his own decisions on in due course\u2014but for the wider integrity of our system of Government and for the role of this Parliament. People have a right to expect that the people who serve as members of Cabinet or as members of Parliament are, to the greatest extent possible, honourable and honest. That is a charge we value and protect very strongly in this House. One cannot impugn a member\u2019s integrity, and that is as it should be, but it carries with it the expectation that a member\u2019s integrity is straightforward, completely honest, and without blemish. When we engage in a debate in this House that, if we are brutally honest, is far less about John Tamihere and the rights and wrongs of his actions, or his case, and is much more about the respective political advantage to those who may be throwing rocks one way or the other, we demean ourselves totally. I do not know about other members, but since this case has been in the media a number of allegations have been made to me about a number of other members in this Chamber, and all sorts of things that they may, or may not, have got up to. All sorts of people have said to me \u201CThis is absolutely, fundamentally true. It cannot be denied.\u201D. What it actually invites, if we carry on down this path, is for all those accusations, however unsubstantiated they are, to be tossed around here under the protection of parliamentary privilege, in the hope that somewhere along the way just a little bit of the mud sticks and does damage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI am not saying that John Tamihere should not be held to account for his actions. He should be. I am not saying that there should not be a full and proper inquiry. There ought to be. I am not saying that if matters arise from that inquiry that require further action, they should not be followed up. But I am saying to members of this House that we should deal with the issue here. Let us focus on what this issue is about. This is not an opportunity for all the dirty washing and all the dirty linen, and the muck that people feel somehow compelled to throw, to be tossed around. If we are really talking about integrity, trust, and honour, then let us think of the trust and the honour of this place. It will suffer, and with it will suffer the individual integrity of every member and the credibility of any Government\u2014this Government, or any succeeding one\u2014to be able to act in the public interest. That is not a responsibility I want to have on my shoulders. I want to see this place work well and constructively, and I think that most members do likewise. I simply make the plea that as we go through the process of the Tamihere case, we recall the wider circumstances and do our best for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229e160ab671aa437ea9bce8e43ec855c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e160ab671aa437ea9bce8e43ec855c7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed his seat, Peter Dunne, is a person whom I have some respect for. Normally, he is a man who offers this House very sensible suggestions about how we should progress issues, but I think he has lost his way a little bit on this one. He is right to say that Mr Tamihere has the right to put his case and to have his side of the story heard. Mr Tamihere, as a member of this House, also has the right to come here, the highest court in the land, to tell this House what the facts are. Where is he? He is hiding in Henderson, having been sent there by his own caucus because it knows that this is a huge embarrassment not only to it, not only to him, but also to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis man cannot return to Cabinet. He will be skating on thin ice if he ever comes back to this House, because it is not credible and it lacks integrity for a member to say to the public in this country: \u201CI will take this course of action with regard to my personal circumstances.\u201D, then do the opposite. In Mr Tamihere\u2019s case, he said that he would not take any golden handshake\u2014the Prime Minister had said that none of her people would be taking golden handshakes\u2014then, for 2 years, he sneaked around the back of that trust, putting pressure on it to come up with the funds to pay him out. We know that the trust had to sell assets, give up programmes, and scrape to the very bottom of its resources in order to make that payment to John Tamihere. No Labour Party member can go out in the next election cycle, or even the next day that he or she might visit his or her constituency, and talk about Labour\u2019s care for those at the bottom end of the social ladder in this country, as long as John Tamihere remains in Labour\u2019s caucus. Labour members know that. They know how brazen he is and what a huge problem it would be if he were to be around Parliament at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMembers should look at an article written by John Tamihere in today\u2019s Dominion Post, in which he states: \u201CWe owe it as leaders to set some new potentials and standards for our young people coming through\u2014\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241b29c06cec745a6bf7dcae965f4d839\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s actually right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49b3644cf97474e8a7bb84cd781301f\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: There is nothing wrong with that; it is quite right. He goes on: \u201Cto appeal to their promise and potential, to lead by example and not become corrupted by the iwi chequebook.\u201D Is it not extraordinary that he should make that statement just 5 days after this little allegation was laid against him in connection with an urban M\u0101ori authority, an organisation that, he has argued repeatedly, should have the same respect as iwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe know where the Labour Party is by the way in which Dr Cullen handled things in the House today. He went on the attack and had a go at just about every member in this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286169d611655403a893abad442c520d5\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: And those outside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9118fd8f1dd4ef9b4e379f3954dee16\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: And some outside. Most of us who were supposed to be cowering at the end of his words were wondering what on earth he was talking about and what planet he was on, because his allegations against others today had no connection to the situation that Mr Tamihere finds himself in. We know that the inquiry that has been set up to find out what is going on, supposedly, and to report to the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b92401a870143918ecd910cf0d15c16\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: A whitewash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc623bd8029f4bb096525417ec473a7d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014will be exactly as it has been labelled by the Opposition\u2014a whitewash. It is unfortunate that the Queen\u2019s Counsel conducting the inquiry happens to be a Mr White; no disrespect to him is intended, but this inquiry will be a whitewash. I ask myself this question: if there was not something seriously wrong here, why was Mr Tamihere stood down? If there was not something seriously wrong here, why did Mr Tamihere not front up to the highest court in the land and explain himself? If there was not a problem, why did Mr Tamihere not come out last Friday and say: \u201DHere are the tax details. It\u2019s all sorted.\u201D? Why did he not say: \u201CHere\u2019s my ministerial declaration. It\u2019s all in here\u2014not a problem.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to put this little suggestion to the House, as well, over the issue of the car that Mr Tamihere had in his possession well after he had left the Waipareira Trust. If it was a gift, it should have been included in his ministerial interests statement. It was not, if it was somehow some form of recompense or income offered to him as a director of Westland Ltd, then he should have declared it as income and paid tax on it. He should have been able to come along to the House and hold up documents to show that he had done just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut all of this is actually not the issue\u2014Mr Dunne is right in that regard. The issue is that the Prime Minister said she would set new standards and require new levels of behaviour from her Ministers. Well, this sort of thing has not been seen from a Minister in a National Government\u2014not ever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df374ab31f1b4370a0e62aadd04ff374\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb370aba1994c6eba6c5a24ead7e0a6\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It surprises us that Dr Cullen should think that he can prove otherwise. Mr Tamihere is a man who has gone about this country proclaiming his interest in the well-being of some of the poorest and least advantaged in our communities, then has shown that, at the same time, he is prepared to rip into their pockets, take what little they have, and ingratiate himself, believing himself to be better than they ever could be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d04676a02a1474881455a69e433fd23\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: And lie about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f26b0956ac6b4a0c917dd9bfe7875191\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Then he refuses to tell the truth about that fact. I want Labour members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ea0aeffc1842b396f58c82d163b5a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The comment made by the member\u2014I have forgotten his name\u2014from somewhere up north, and also the comment made by the deputy leader of the National Party are out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6f6052b59b4f79ba446f6570782664\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: They were out of order. A member cannot suggest that another member is not telling the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cba4331b129148f3bc9b3c4d769aeb79\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw that comment, and will rephrase it by saying that Mr Tamihere has refused to come to this House and put the record straight. He is happy to leave it to a Queen\u2019s Counsel, who has no statutory authority, no capacity to subpoena information, documents, files, etc., no capacity to subpoena witnesses, and no capacity to cross-examine, and who has the capacity only to investigate what Mr Tamihere himself will allow him to investigate, and who then will report to the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere is no question in my mind that after the Government first saw this happening, last Thursday, it moved swiftly on Friday to get rid of Mr Tamihere. When things went a little bit quiet over the weekend, it thought: \u201CWe can get through this. We can get him off this.\u201D It thought it could come up with some weak inquiry this week, and could paper over the cracks, and Mr Tamihere would be back by Christmas, sitting in Cabinet. Let me make this prediction: John Tamihere will never sit in Cabinet again in this country. What is more, if the proper investigations are done\u2014if all the information is made available to the public\u2014he will not survive as a member of Parliament in this country, either. I say to all those Labour members opposite who are about to leap up and defend him that they should think about what it will be like for them out on the traps, telling those people whom Labour Party members like to think they represent the best that Mr Tamihere at all times had their interests in his sights. It is absolutely clear that Mr Tamihere had his own interests in his sights, at all times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to suggest that it is unfortunate that Mr Winston Peters suggested in his contribution today that somehow the attack on John Tamihere is racially motivated. Let us be very clear: there would be no attack on John Tamihere if there were no problem. I also want to know why Lianne Dalziel was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00226015b3f3366549e2a9a59fe848080489\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226015b3f3366549e2a9a59fe848080489\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E There can be no more serious allegations than the ones raised in this House today, and that is why this Government has moved swiftly to initiate a high-level inquiry. At the same time, though, we have to acknowledge that Mr Tamihere\u2019s years at the Waipareira Trust were a great success story. Here are the facts. Mr Tamihere started with a 12-employee organisation with a turnover of half a million dollars. He finished with over 200 employees and a turnover of $8 million. That member over there, Mr Rodney Hide, has never run a business\u2014could not run bathwater\u2014in his life. With the organisation building so quickly and so strongly, were all the i\u2019s dotted and the t\u2019s crossed? The answer is no. But few organisations with such a remarkable growth record would be able to withstand the scrutiny that Mr Tamihere has been exposed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWhat we have seen in this House today, and in the last week, is a hatchet job of awesome proportions. It has brought together three vengeful groups: the trustees and staff of the Waipareira Trust; M\u0101ori Party activists\u2014Mr Sharples has started his election campaign\u2014and, of course, the leader of the ACT party, Rodney Philip Hide, the only, by his own admission, honest man in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe reason that John Tamihere has been attacked from all sides is quite simple: because it was he who called for greater accountability and transparency at the Waipareira Trust. That is something I would have thought the self-confessed great scambuster, Mr Hide, would support. For a number of years trustees and beneficiaries, including Mr Tamihere, have voiced concerns about the trust, but those concerns have never been answered by a clique of managers and trustees in that trust. The concerns included the possibility of mortgagee sale proceedings; mezzanine finances being sought to prop up the trust\u2019s trading; losses at its call centre in the order of $3 million and over; and the sale of major assets. These and other unanswered questions led to a special general meeting on 27 July this year. The meeting appointed an audit committee made up of John Tamihere; A\u012Brini T\u016Bkerangi; Ricky Houghton, the treasurer; and Mr Joseph Waru. The audit committee was tasked with instructing Deloitte to conduct an audit and review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe process adopted for this was highly unusual. Despite Mr Tamihere being elected to the audit committee, he was not allowed access to any of the work in progress. He was not questioned as part of the work. He was not given the opportunity to respond to any of the draft findings. In fact, he still has not received an official copy of the report. [Interruption] The fact is that member opposite does not have the gift of the gab; he has the \u201Cgift of the Gibbs\u201D! I think it is called Alan Gibbs and we will get to that soon. The facts are that no audit and review ever took place. The media have called it an audit. Mr Hide has called it an audit. The Waipareira Trust board has purported to release an audit and review statement. That is an absolute fabrication. Deloitte itself indicated in its opening comments on page 1: \u201CBecause the procedures enumerated within the attached report do not constitute either an audit or review, we do not express any assurance on any financial information relating to the items in the terms of reference of this engagement.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d25aaac7748e41f5ab672f8ebd58158b\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide didn\u2019t refer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa4966f546e4b43ba5f5cccec4262f9\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide never referred to that. It is also clear that no real examination took place, and I quote from the report itself: \u201CThis report was compiled on the basis of information gathered by trust employees and the contract accountant, Mr B Bryant, along with inquiry and interviews with certain people involved in the trust board\u2019s governance and management, and based on reports and documentation supplied or cited by Deloitte.\u201D The guts of Mr Tamihere\u2019s problem is that the people who were under investigation in the audit were the only people who were asked to supply information to it. No one else was questioned. No one else who raised complaints or concerns had a chance to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWhat kind of dodgy report is that? The reality is that the process was hijacked to ensure that the focus, rather than being on problems facing the trust, was on Mr Tamihere. In simple terms, that is called payback. To further ensure that no one took any notice of the real issue of malfeasance in the trust, just a few days before the report was released five trustees were sacked and three senior workers were removed\u2014all in the same week. There are some serious questions that need to be answered by Deloitte relating to its conduct in the matter. There is also a question of whether, as the auditor for the trust for the last 3 years, Deloitte was ever in a position to properly accept the job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EA gang of three was formed at the trust: the treasurer, a triple bankrupt, Ricky Houghton; the chief executive officer, Reg R\u0101tahi; and the chief financial officer, Bruce Bryant. The members of that gang of three have collaborated and colluded to ensure that they cover their tracks, and to make sure that there is no accountability at the trust. That is the calibre of person that that member over there, Mr Hide, the scambuster, relies on for his so-called evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe documentation relied on by Mr Tamihere\u2019s accusers is wrong in a number of respects, and evidence provided to the inquiry will determine that. Time does not allow me to identify all of the aspects, other than to say the following. It is a fact that the current chief executive officer, Mr R\u0101tahi, received a major bonus package of over $60,000 when he moved from being health manager at the trust. That was not disclosed. In fact, Mr R\u0101tahi\u2019s salary has never been disclosed at all, neither in the report nor to the trustees. It is a fact that the former chief executive officer for 9 months, Mr Mackintosh, was also paid a major package of at least $60,000 for leaving. That also was not disclosed. Only Mr Tamihere\u2019s details were disclosed, and, in my view, the inquiry will show that those details were wrong. There are more flaws and falsehoods, but I will stop there. There is enough evidence even for TV3 and all the rest of the media to have a look at, except that some in the media do not want to focus on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe also know that, contrary to the constitution, the current chief executive officer, Mr R\u0101tahi, provided a letter to the chair of the audit committee, Mr Joseph Waru, a trustee, giving him employment through the back door, and buying his support in the oversight of the dodgy so-called audit and review report. Members should work that one out! Again, certain members of the media did not wish to focus on that element, and that is because the report is fashioned in a remarkable, \u201CHide-ish\u201D type of way so that it provides the reader with quotable information about Mr Tamihere\u2014who was never meant to be the focus of the review\u2014while, of course, at the same time obscuring negative findings about the current management of the trust. I have to say that the smell of the political sewer reeks around the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe know that Mr Hide has been working in collusion with the gang of three since August 2 this year. When the heat was put on the gang of three, through an audit commissioned on 27 July, less than a week had gone by before the gang of three was negotiating and colluding with Mr Hide to become the gang of four. Why did those people do that? There can be only one explanation: to cover their own tracks. What started as a search for accountability and integrity at the trust has highlighted an absolute lack of them. For instance, for a chartered accountant working for an organisation it should be unthinkable to allow an outside person\u2014friend or enemy\u2014to trawl through its accounts. Yet Mr Hide has, for 2 solid months, worked his fingers to the bone with the trust on this issue. He has sat in the accounts office, working his fingers to the bone to do over Mr Tamihere. That is an unforgivable breach by that chartered accountant, the consequences of which, I believe, are yet to be visited on Mr Bryant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ELittle did the members of the gang of three realise or know what would happen when they got into bed with a creature like Rodney Philip Hide. But it is important for the people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276d2e3113d0941f8bb6fba95b27373d3\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member cannot refer to a member of Parliament in that way. He will withdraw that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4a08624c1c4f37aa70bf444c2a2c6c\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I should withdraw what, Madam Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9027d3e04c24e169c24beacc9cec029\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The remark he made about the member being a \u201Ccreature\u201D. Please withdraw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d62750d1baf4a009905da33f4a16ba8\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. But it is important for the record to be put straight, and for the people of west Auckland and of New Zealand to know that Mr Tamihere has been the subject of a well-planned and well-orchestrated witch-hunt and jack-up. I say to one of our members that people in glass houses should not throw stones. I note with interest that Michael Cullen asked Mr Hide whether he had ever had money from outside. I remember that during the pecuniary interest debate I asked Mr Hide that question. It is not an offence or a breach of the Standing Orders if somebody who wants to go into Parliament says that the salary of $120,000, or whatever, just is not enough, and somebody else says he or she will give that person $50,000 a year. It would be a breach only if the member were motivated to action as a result of that payment. We know that Mr Hide worked for Gilt-Edged Securities for 3 years, and that it was a front to set up the ACT party. We know that Mr Alan Gibbs, his sort of surrogate father, funded that and paid Mr Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae684dbf6f5d49739066a8e18a19ac21\u0022\u003EHolidays Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ced3164960fe4b5baa2e59758e3ca287\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00221619041dd6f9445581554a4bf28542c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221619041dd6f9445581554a4bf28542c2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Holidays Amendment Bill be now read a third time. There was a lot of debate about this bill during the Committee stage, and I want to make a couple of brief comments at the start before going into some of the substance of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe Holidays Amendment Bill amends the Holidays Act 2003. As I indicated earlier in the year, the bill is about making sure that the unintended consequences of the Holidays Act, which was introduced in 2003, are dealt with. It is important to say right from the start that the bill does not undermine the fundamental policy and principles of the Holidays Act. It is really important to outline what those are. There are two basic principles, by and large. The first one is a commitment from the Government side of the House, and from a number of other parties in the House, to 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave coming into force in April 2007. That is a very, very important step forward for ordinary working people in New Zealand. The fact is that Australia has had 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave for the last 30 years. But if people listened to the National Party, they would think that it was the greatest insult ever foisted upon the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e21a1e0ab9b74bff9cbedecd53061a96\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I thought they wanted living standards raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298fa54b099414d019f93c0ca6f9aa48a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the National Party does want living standards raised, and the Leader of the Opposition constantly talks about the fact that we are competing with workers from around the world. He compares us with Australia, yet when we get a chance to do something that brings us in line with Australia, in order to try to make sure that we are competitive with Australia, he turns it down. That is strange. There is a word to describe it that starts with \u201Ch\u201D that we are not allowed to use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe second point, and the most important point, is that the Leader of the Opposition has said that he will repeal the 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b96ab059f24a8199580a83fbd33986\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b53437ff7698479e8995b01dbf38b910\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he did say that. That will be difficult for him, because he worked as the Governor of the Reserve Bank, and if one goes to the Reserve Bank website, one sees that 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave is mandated as part of the conditions of those working at the Reserve Bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022345d3c26f4324b27912dbacf8aa8d604\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9a5fd1fa1c4da4ae712b4e172230a8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Four weeks. The Leader of the Opposition was quite happy to accept at least 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave when he was the Governor of the Reserve Bank, but when it comes to every other working person in the country, no, it is not good enough, and the National Party will shut the door on it because it will lead to a downfall in the New Zealand economy. There is a word for that; we are not allowed to use it here, but it starts with \u201Ch\u201D. I will not be drawn into using it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E I want someone from the National Party, in the debate over the next little while, to stand up and reconfirm that party\u2019s commitment to repealing the 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave provision in the Holidays Act. I just want somebody to say\u2014yes or no\u2014whether the National Party would repeal it. We have been asking for that. National members said it in 2002 and they said it in 2003, and I am very keen to hear what those members have to say now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe second thing that the bill does is introduce time and a half for ordinary working people who work on a public holiday, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with people getting a little extra for that. In fact, most New Zealanders think it is fair. They think it is fair that if someone who could have been home with the family on a public holiday\u2014which is what public holidays are supposed to be about\u2014is called to work to pump gas, serve a meal, or carry bags up to a hotel suite, then that person should get a little extra than those people sitting at home and enjoying the public holiday with their families. I think most people would consider that to be fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EWhat the Act was attempting to do was to address a lot of the basic rights that were taken away when the Employment Contracts Act was introduced in the year 1991. We were trying to bring a little bit back for working people in New Zealand, and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, the vast majority of people think it is fair\u2014but not those people on the Opposition benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abfdfb83da6f41458cf82fab5ac8c37d\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Ask them how many holidays they take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d22a8b4edb465cbd14ace4a671801b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: How many holidays do members of the Opposition take? Well, most people would say that life is one big holiday for them, given the effort that they put into this place. But the reality is that one of the things we will say to ordinary working people in New Zealand is that Don Brash and the National Party want to take a holiday\u2014yours. I do not mean Mr Speaker\u2019s; I mean everybody else\u2019s. As a result of that, we will have quite an interesting little bit of campaign fun as we lead in to the next election. With regard to the provision of time and a half and 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave, I will be interested to see all those members stand up and say: \u201CWe get 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave, but we\u2019re not going to give it everybody else.\u201D I am really looking forward to the speeches that I will hear from the National Party in a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThis bill is about addressing unintended consequences. When I started to see that there were a few issues, I set up a working party made up primarily of the Council of Trade Unions and Business New Zealand, but including a number of other industries, as well. I say to the Council of Trade Unions and Business New Zealand that this was a very, very good effort on their part, and I appreciate the fact that they worked constructively. I think it is fair to say that Business New Zealand had a grave number of concerns about the legislation full stop, yet it was prepared to engage constructively. It is fair to say that the Council of Trade Unions was most concerned about a number of the provisions in the bill that came forward, particularly those around medical certificates, but it worked constructively, as well. I think that that was really, really important. I want to thank them for the effort and energy that they put into this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIt is true to say that not everybody who was involved in the working party is 100 percent happy, but I support what my colleagues from United Future have said, because it is the honourable position. The position those members have taken is that this bill is an improvement and a step forward. What we hear from other parties is that they want to go back to the drawing board. My concern was to ensure that we fixed this matter prior to Labour weekend, and I want to thank United Future for supporting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe bill does a number of things. First of all, it tries to make sure that people who already get time and a half as part of an agreement, or whatever, do not get time and a half on top of that. No one thought that was fair. It was an unintended consequence. Some people said that it was clear in the legislation, and other people said that it was not. So we are making it absolutely, specifically clear that if one receives time and a half as part of an agreement, one does not get time and a half on top of that for working on a public holiday, and that is fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe second issue that came to my attention was that if someone was sick on a public holiday and took the day off, that person would receive time and a half as if he or she had worked on the public holiday. Personally, I do not think that that was intended, either\u2014that people who are sick on a public holiday would get the same rate of pay as someone who works on a public holiday. [Interruption] The member might say that, but in my view that was not the intention, and people would not have agreed to it. The reality is that if one is sick on a public holiday, one receives the normal rate of pay, and, as a result, one does not get a day in lieu. But it is certainly treated as a sick day, as it rightly should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe third issue is the fact that lots of people with composite agreements did not know whether holiday pay was included in them, or time and a half for penal pay, so we gave them a year to sort that out. People then said a year was not long enough, because a lot of the contracts go for 3 years, so we have said that we will extend it out to 2007 to give them more time to sort out that provision. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014rightly\u2014extended that to individual contracts, as well, to be consistent. I think that is a very good point, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThen there was the issue around medical certificates, which caused some controversy. My view was that within the first 3 days the employer, given reasonable grounds, should be able to ask for a medical certificate. The employer is to pay for the medical certificate, and that gives balance on either side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ESo I say that this is good legislation. I thank United Future for its support. I think it is the honourable position to take. I think that a number of other people were keen to support the bill, but were not quite so sure, and decided to vote against it. I think it is good legislation, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffbc875b80704d7c8989b36c1b297896\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffbc875b80704d7c8989b36c1b297896\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is a miserable and pathetic effort. That is why the employer organisations\u2014Business New Zealand, the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern)\u2014and right across the entire country are saying no to this legislation. When we have five problems, one of which is huge and the others are trivial, people expect us to deal with the real problem, and not to just focus on the trivial. Through the submissions process, from submitter after submitter, it was absolutely clear that there was one issue that was expected to be fixed up. There was one major problem with the Holidays Act, and the Government has completely ignored it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThese are the facts. For the 3 months since April 2004, the meat industry has seen its sick leave increase by 50 percent. Air New Zealand showed in its annual report that the Holidays Act has caused an increase in costs of $17.5 million. It said that the Act does nothing for productivity and growth. [Interruption] That member should read the annual report for 2004, and he if did that, he would learn something. But, of course, he does not. Government members are oblivious to the facts and to the owners of business, and beholden only to their union mates. The reasons are simple. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is now possible to get more money from being sick than from working. It is not the same amount of money for being sick as for a person working, but more money, and that is the concern. That has caused the explosion in the taking of sick leave, and businesses want it fixed up. Did they get a thoughtful hearing from the Government? No, they did not. In fact, they were completely and totally ignored. Now, there was an opportunity in the Committee stage to restore the position back to where it was when the Government itself\u2014the Labour Government\u2014just a little more than 12 months ago in 2003, introduced the Holidays Bill into the House. It could have just restored it back to that. Predictably, of course, Labour voted against that move. United Future had its opportunity, but it abstained, and the employers have taken note. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhat is that party\u2019s excuse for abstaining? What is its excuse for voting for this bill in the House today? We heard the member for United Future Mr Paul Adams talking about a meal of elephants. He said that this bill represented one bite from the elephant. I guess that an elephant contains thousands of bites. Is United Future really expecting the Government to make thousands of amendments to the Holidays Act so that, bite by bite, it can vote for them and finally fix them up? I guess that shows the naivety of the United Future party and the way that it is completely beholden and in thrall to the Government, because it is enabling Labour to avoid the issue\u2014that is what it is doing. It is conniving with the Government to stop the real problems being fixed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe real issue is \u201Crelevant daily pay\u201D\u2014that is the serious problem. I will talk about that issue in a bit of detail. Relevant daily pay includes ordinary pay, overtime, productivity bonuses, and incentives. It was inserted into the bill without consultation. It came as a surprise because it was not a concept that was in Labour\u2019s own bill in 2003. That is why it is now possible for workers to be sick and get more money than when they are working. We heard the very simple facts from the Meat Industry Association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EImagine this\u2014[Interruption]\u2014if Labour\u2019s junior whip, Darren Hughes, could do so. A chain in a meat plant relies on a number of people to work it and make it efficient. That is how people get the productivity bonuses and incentives\u2014by putting the throughput in. If some of those people call in sick, the chain cannot work effectively but the people who are sick get the effect of the productivity bonuses. The people who are working do not. So we have the absurd proposition that people who are sick get more money than people who are working. I know that the Speaker in the Chair is well familiar with the meat industry. He must, surely, be aware that it is an absolute absurdity and a nonsense that someone will get paid more money for being sick than their fellow employees, who are doing precisely the same job, and who are actually at work. That is nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis Government and United Future had the opportunity to fix that very problem. They were completely deaf to that. Why were they deaf? That is an important question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe know that the Government members on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee are completely beholden to unions. Every last one of them is an ex - trade unionist. We are not just talking about ordinary members of trade unions\u2014people who might be working in the public service and who happen to pay union dues. These are the people who are the activists in the trade unions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ETake the chairman of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. He was secretary of the Service and Food Workers Union. Lianne Dalziel is a well-known union lawyer\u2014that was her entire legal experience. Lynne Pillay was another well-known union organiser from out west. [Interruption] The member who is now interjecting, Helen Duncan, was the president of the New Zealand Educational Institute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EAll these people are completely deaf to the pleas of business. They do not understand business. They hate business. Business, to them, is to be raped and pillaged for the benefit of union members, and they seek each and every opportunity to do so. The Holidays Act is a classic example of that. So when the submissions were made to the select committee, those members were completely deaf to the pleas of business. Not a single amendment addressed those concerns. Those members voted against the Supplementary Order Paper when it was put to them but, of course, they were all ears for the union. They sympathised and empathised with every sad tale that was brought up because they wanted to help the unions. They asked how high they had to jump when the unions said to jump. I guess that the answer is: as high as requested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe are very clear on this issue. The Act needs reform. The single biggest issue that needs reform is relevant daily pay. The bill that was introduced into Parliament in 2003 by the Government had the solution with the concept of ordinary pay. It even included certain payments that were standard parts of the contract. It was an advance on the 1981 Act. As a reasonable proposition, last week we asked the House to return to the bill that was introduced by the Labour Government in 2003 as a reasonable adjustment and the way to deal with the concerns raised by businesses right across the country. Labour refused that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EToday we hear the Government saying that it is doing a wonderful thing by passing this bill. It says that it is passing it before Labour Day. Not a single employer will be able to implement it, because the Act is so complex and so difficult to understand in the short number of days between now and Labour Day that it will be impossible to adjust computer programmes, salary programmes, and so on to take any account of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI will close on this next point. Mr Simon Carlaw was asked a very clear question: would he prefer the real issue of relevant daily pay fixed, or this bill? He said he wanted the real issue fixed because that is how business, productivity, and wealth are advanced in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022d85019f6c5ae4ca8803bea83b7fb79cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d85019f6c5ae4ca8803bea83b7fb79cd\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is somewhat of a pleasure to speak after that member has sat down and to remind him about productivity and efficiency, because I understand that the National Party policy is to get rid of 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave. Did that member move a Supplementary Order Paper into this House to test that? Did Dr Wayne Mapp, National\u2019s latest industrial relations spokesperson, get up to impress his leader, who has promised, if National is elected next year, to get rid of 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave? Did he? No, he did not. He was probably asleep at the time and forgot. The National Party is so confused about its position on these matters that it did not even have the wherewithal to put up an amendment to this bill saying that it does not want workers to get 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave. Why did Dr Wayne Mapp not do that, if he is so productive and efficient? Why did he not follow his leader\u2019s lead and propose it as National Party policy? Maybe it is because National is not really sure that it could get away with that. It did try to take 50 percent of workers\u2019 wages off them when they went off sick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp does not portray the real situation for those freezing workers that he spoke of. We asked the Business New Zealand representative when he came before the committee whether he lost 50 percent of his wage when he went off sick. I am still waiting for the answer, because he mumbled and jumbled around and said that if Business New Zealand required him to be productive and have such an agreement, then he could expect to maybe lose that sort of money. But he was an ex - meat industry representative and he did not tell the committee that he lost 50 percent of his wages when he went off sick for a day. He proposed, and the National Party proposes, to get rid of the law that states that people who go off sick get the same amount of earnings as they would if they had been at work, which was the law in this land for as long as I was in the workforce up until National changed the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ESo it is quite rich for the National Party to say that workers are getting paid a heck of a lot more when, in fact, the evidence that I heard was that they got up to 50 percent of their normal daily pay taken off them if they should go off sick. Let us be clear about that\u2014the National Party is proposing to take the fourth week of annual leave off workers in this country, if it should ever be elected. Dr Wayne Mapp forgot to put that amendment forward last week. And it is saying that if workers go off sick under a National Government, they will lose 50 percent of their pay for the pleasure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E That is good to be able to go out and tell the workforce of New Zealand, because Dr Brash is on record as saying that we need to do things to keep New Zealand workers here instead of have them go over to Australia and create a skill shortage in this land. In Australia, of course, they have had 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave for about 30 years. Workers also get their sick pay paid to them as per what they would have earned. But the National Party solution to a skills and labour shortage in New Zealand is to make it even worse for workers. Well, on that basis there is no point in discussing the matter any further in a debate such as this, because the National Party\u2019s lunacy speaks loudly and people can understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c545e4590cbb49d9a76b53de5f6c24eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c545e4590cbb49d9a76b53de5f6c24eb\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Maybe I can answer the question the member just posed to the National Party. I am not here trying to defend the National Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229254ccb047434f1c998ae6275d6200c5\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Always sticking up for the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022791fc57d83ee4e6fbd5eb740d52105c4\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not always sticking up for the National Party, but the member raised a good point and I thought I would at least like to address it, at the start. When people work for wages and overtime, they generally get extra for working extended hours, weekends, and public holidays, and New Zealand First supports that element in this bill. But when an employee is on a salary, as the member over there referred to, that employee would not lose part or half of his or her pay for going off sick. I point out to the honourable member that an employee does not earn any more when he or she works overtime at night, at weekends, or on public holidays, and that is the balance of the whole thing. It is a different wage-type structure, which is why the employer answered accordingly at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First wanted to support this bill. We very much wanted to support it, because the 2003 legislation, in nautical language, was a stuff-up. We got it wrong. The select committee got it wrong. I will be attacked by members behind me, but we supported\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e72d752a826c49229fd56330b1cfae3b\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: So it was nautical\u2014the stuff-up\u2014was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b38c76d891d4bd890b665adc758a26e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is nautical language. We are very kind in nautical circles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240d4efb13e5d41a3926ba485039ebdac\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: I thought nautical was an aviation term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a452d537f334446b40aea4ba8f18c9b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there we are\u2014we learn something every day. But the legislation was wrong, and it needed to be corrected. This 2004 bill corrects a couple of areas. It corrects the area of sick leave, as the Minister has rightly pointed out. It puts some very limited basic controls in the system. That concerned employers and I think that that is reasonable. New Zealand First would have liked that to be a little bit tighter, but we can live with it. It is better than the 2003 legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt does not touch the issue of the 4 weeks\u2019 leave, and I want to make New Zealand First\u2019s position quite clear on that: we are totally supportive of workers getting 4 weeks\u2019 holiday a year. Indeed, that provision does not come in until the year 2007, and we would have liked to bring it in earlier. I want to make that position clear. We believe that that could have been done relatively easily. I notice that the Government has brought in the Working for Families legislation, and the provision could easily have been embraced in that legislation by using the tax system to bring it in a little earlier. But it is no big deal for it to come in, in 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First was also supportive of low-paid people getting time and a half for working on public holidays. We see no problem with that, at all, and we are quite supportive of it. But that 2003 legislation provided for people who volunteered to work on a public holiday to get time and a half on everything, as well as a day in lieu, if they were sick or for some reason could not work on the public holiday they had volunteered to work on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297339c75a0834194a949fdc87e1eb982\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: Bizarre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca791f5df2c3426596324c357ec82db5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague says that that is bizarre. It sounds like something designed by Basil Fawlty and that had to be corrected. This bill corrects that, and New Zealand First is comfortable about it. But there is a problem\u2014and I know that the Minister knows it\u2014with relevant daily pay. That has gone a little too far, and it should have been addressed. An amendment was put forward by Dr Wayne Mapp at the Committee stage that really brought the whole matter back to what Labour wanted in the initial instance. We thought that that was the way to tidy it up, but it was not to be. United Future abstained, and the legislation went through. Now, United Future has told us that it was eating the elephant, piece by piece. We are still trying to work out why it is that in legislation about holidays we are talking about eating elephants, but I am sure the member over there has a reason. The United Future position sounded to New Zealand First as if its members were kissing the elephant\u2019s rump, bit by bit, because they did have a chance to tidy this bill up, fairly and properly, in the interests of everybody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7cdfd7478884f96863d51b0fd069aee\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208d2fbd1b0d4421e8aa4d96ff0d5740c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you did. I can understand the member saying \u201CNo\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f163ff9422984568bcecd9a0bc0a3ce5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I did not\u2014the member will please not bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E This part is very important. It is the third reading. I am pointing out why United Future members said no\u2014they were not on the select committee. They were not permanent members of the select committee, did not volunteer to go on the select committee, did not turn up in the audience of the select committee, and neither did they read any of the submissions. Yet they abstained from quite a reasonable amendment, and they sit here telling us that they want to eat the elephant bite by bite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EI want to tell the member over there of another failing. United Future opposed the amendment in my name that related to this bill, which would have prohibited people on a salary\u2014I am talking about the high-flyers now\u2014from having their salary regarded as a composite agreement, as this bill allows. I trust that the National Party has done its homework. It has told us that Theresa Gattung, who is on a salary of $2.8 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eaf0cf128084137882ac74baf3138f2\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: It was a calculation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b48926792599438b912f9c57f8435dde\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It was a wrong calculation? She is on $2.8 million a year, and, under this bill, she can have her agreement pulled apart and put together again, so that if she works on a public holiday for a couple of hours, it is what\u2014$10,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c42edd799aa4145a82ca77c829328fd\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: No, she can get $15,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3668934e2c4db48dceab947395c48c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Fifteen thousand dollars! I do not know how she will struggle through. I really do not know how she struggles through. I do not know how the United Future member can sit there. I see he is smiling now. I think he must regard it as a joke. He actually voted against an amendment that would have tidied that up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e05f8d4f03cb4e45b0659795c14a3bc0\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: My amendment did the same thing. What\u2019s your excuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb1ff121aa4a4c1ba03bb97a73ea0de7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Adams that his amendment did not do the same thing. The amendment that New Zealand First put in would have addressed the Theresa Gattung problem. For the member to sit over there and say that that is all OK is to treat this whole thing like a joke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt is regrettable that New Zealand First cannot support this bill. We know that it goes part-way to addressing the situation, but we are not prepared to allow the relevant daily pay problem just to creep through the whole of society. It will have a huge adverse effect on some employment practices in this country, and I believe that many small employers will be looking twice over this sort of legislation before they decide on whether to employ somebody. This will be a balancing act for a small employer to go through before he or she puts someone on the payroll. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely ridiculous that a person on a salary\u2014particularly a high-flying salary\u2014can claim something like thousands of dollars a day for working on a public holiday. It is absolutely disgraceful. I do not want to imply for one minute that Theresa Gattung will go in and pull her salary apart and then claim it, but the fact that she can is beyond belief. I think the public of New Zealand, when they get to know these sorts of facts, will wonder what the dickens we do in this House. In two sequences we have turned a relatively untidy piece of holidays legislation\u2014the earlier Act\u2014into very complicated legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe went through this in 2003 and got it wrong by quite some. It was far worse than we in New Zealand First estimated, and I think it was far worse than many of the submitters who were concerned by the 2003 legislation thought. Now, this 2004 bill has tidied up two fairly minor parts of that legislation, but we should be dealing with the whole thing. Let us do it once and do it right. This was the opportunity. I have to say again that if United Future had paid a little bit more attention to the detail, turned up to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, actually got the submissions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228451313a2c76423c884eee59a85acf80\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I let the member go the first time, but I remind the member that it is a longstanding convention that members do not refer to the absence of members, not only from the Chamber but also from select committees. That does not stop members from criticising other members for failing to vote, failing to answer questions, or failing to take part in debate. I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/7, a ruling of Speaker Algie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5463ee8ab7c474e8f7c19e178917ec2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that you are correct, Mr Speaker, but I just point out that United Future is not on that select committee. I acknowledged that from the word go, and I am trying to point out that had they shown a little bit more interest and got themselves on the committee by leave of the House, Parliament might have been better informed and we would have better legislation out of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdc1d4fd2f18420899511827b9771ea4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdc1d4fd2f18420899511827b9771ea4\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party continues to oppose this bill, which we see as both unnecessary and, in the main, detrimental to workers\u2019 interests. The main reason given by the Government in putting this Holidays Amendment Bill forward has been that it needs to address what it calls \u201Cunintended consequences\u201D arising from last year\u2019s Holidays Act. However, we believe that this justification of unintended consequences is neither reasonable nor logical. Rather, it is clear that Labour has given in to well-applied pressure from certain employer groups that were not prepared to rest easy once the original Holidays Act was passed. It is a worry that when we come to future employment relations or other social justice - orientated legislation, the Government may be equally keen to backtrack if sufficient influence is exerted, even after the original bill becomes law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe only amendment in front of us today for which the Green Party can see any justification at all is possibly the change to make sure that workers do not get time and a half on top of time and a half in penal rates on public holidays. If there was doubt about this in the wake of the original Act, and there is some question about whether in fact such doubt exists, we acknowledge that there is a need to clarify. We are also pleased that at least following consideration in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, it has been made clear that penal rates do not include payments for other types of days, such as for the sixth and seventh day of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EHowever, the major part of this bill deals with changes around the provision of proof of sickness or injury to employers when an employer \u201Chas reasonable grounds to suspect that the sick leave being taken by the employee is not genuine.\u201D This flies in the face of the progressive reform brought forward in the original Holidays Act that allowed workers 3 days\u2019 sick leave before being required to provide medical evidence to their employer. Business representatives seem to have convinced the Government that there was a desperate unintended consequence as a result of the Holidays Act being passed, in terms of a lot more false sick leave being taken than normal. However, neither unions nor the Green Party have been able to identify substantive proof of this, and I think it is a real pity that Labour has seen fit to partially reverse its original good intentions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIt is a disgrace that the Government, which has now turned its back on those intentions, is now requiring medical certificates for short-term absences due to sick or domestic leave, even just for 1 day. What we have ended up with is, in fact, a situation worse than the old 1981 Holidays Act, which was silent on the issue of sickness certificates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis bill will now open the way for a whole lot of consequences that will potentially have adverse impacts on employees and their families. Among them is the risk that workers will have to disclose private medical information about themselves, or their dependants, to their employer. There is the risk that they, or their children, will be forced to travel to see a doctor, even when they are better off in bed, or when there is no reason for them to see a medical professional at all; and that workers will be forced to pay a high, upfront consultation fee when they have not got the money on them at the time, and with no guaranteed time frame for reimbursement. There is also no end of uncertainty about what \u201Creasonable grounds to suspect\u201D means\u2014that is, when an employer can plausibly make the demand on a staff member to provide proof of sickness or injury. There is also a total lack of clarity about what the consequences might be for workers who do not comply with an employer demand to provide such proof. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis amendment is not only retrogressive, in terms of going back on the originally progressive nature of the Holidays Act, but it also introduces a whole new layer of ambiguity in potential compliance costs for both employers and unions. As for those workers who do not have a union to represent them in cases where they are harassed for proof of injury or illness, I really fear the extent to which they might be dragged back into the dark ages by this misguided legislation. There is no need for this bill. The Green Party will be voting against it, and I just hope we do not see any more legislation like this from a Labour Government in this or any other term of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u002288994c4ed3de45798eafb58f32ec9aba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288994c4ed3de45798eafb58f32ec9aba\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to support this legislation. By the sound of some of the speakers in the House this afternoon, I should be rising to support this bill with my head held low, but I stand with my head held high to support this legislation. I stand as an employer. I stand as somebody who has employed staff for in excess of 30 years, and continues to employ staff. I am amazed at some of the misunderstanding about this bill that we are dealing with in the House today, the Holidays Amendment Bill. This is not the Holidays Bill of 2003, which United Future voted against, as I have said previously. This bill amends the Act. These are amendments that improve that Act. Many Opposition members have said that somehow United Future members had a miraculous row of choices whereby we could have chosen this or that\u2014but we did not. I tell Mr Mapp that we need to understand that the Labour Government does not want, or accept at this stage, ordinary daily pay. That is why, with Green support, the Government brought relevant daily pay into the original bill. United Future does not agree with relevant daily pay, but we are not looking at relevant daily pay in the legislation that is before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a531fc8b0a94f1b8acee8b3c4c0357b\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: You had the opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022886ff649422e4e8caa8a175b080ffef9\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: There was no opportunity for that. If we had been dealing with the issue of relevant daily pay, let me assure the House we would not have this legislation to deal with, full stop. So, therefore, United Future is supporting this bill because it does improve the legislation. The good news for my friends in Business New Zealand, and those people who are so against this legislation, is that they can give their members a choice. If they want to continue paying the rates under the Holidays Act, they are entitled to do so; they are free to. Let them go on and pay their workers the extra rates. I ask those employers who choose to do that to send me an email, because I would be very interested to see how many will pay the extra rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThis bill is an improvement. The reality is that it is good news for the many small businesses that will be able to reduce these costs because this legislation has been passed. Many amendments were brought in, and United Future did bring in an amendment to cover people on commission sales and people who were employed on a retainer basis. I was interested that no other party in the House supported that, which absolutely amazed me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe other amendment I was disappointed to see fail, because of the Green Party vote, concerned the rights of the Brethren Church. The Greens thought that their view on religion was greater than that of the others, so they chose to vote it down, and I think that was a sad day for business. Here is one of the diligent groups of employers in this country now facing huge challenges that could have been quite easily avoided. I was disappointed at that. It absolutely amazes me that Opposition parties can stand up and give United Future such a hard time for supporting this legislation that they know improves the Holidays Act. Many employer groups have rung me over this legislation, but not one of them\u2014not one of them\u2014has not agreed that this legislation is an improvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI was interested to hear my colleague Gordon Copeland, speaking the other day on other legislation, make a very relevant point, because it brought clarity to the ground that United Future has stood firmly on, and will continue to stand firmly on, and that is the middle ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E Our colleagues on our left in the Labour Party have members in their midst who have some views that we would see as extreme. Likewise, there are colleagues on my right in the National Party who have some views that United Future would consider to be extreme. When we come to legislation such as this, when one stands from a central viewpoint as we do in United Future, listening to the concerns of the members of the Labour Party on the left and understanding the philosophy that they come from, then also listening to those on the right and understanding their philosophies, we then come back to our key word, the word that they all smile about, and that is the common-sense decision on whether it is better for the direction of the country, whether it is better for employers, and whether it will help in the production costs of the nation. The answer, when we ask those questions in relation to this legislation, has to be yes. That is why United Future says yes in its support for this bill. It is because it brings the legislation into a position that is closer to where we think it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe bill is not perfect. We would have also loved to have the issue of relevant daily pay dealt with, but that was not a choice in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f389bd74c10f48e6a0496b2c3cd833fc\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f49f3cf8b36a4f26a9b8898a1eb5c0d2\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Because this legislation, as I said, would not have appeared in the House if that issue had to be dealt with at that time. So, it was not a choice. Therefore, United Future is supporting this legislation. I know there will be many, many small-business people out there who will be thankful that we have at least one party in the House that uses its common sense and will not vote on an ideological philosophy and will not say yes because the other party says no, or no because the other party says yes. We actually take the time to weigh matters up and make our decision based solely on common sense. New Zealand will be a better place as a result of this measure. Employers will have an easier time in a very challenging market because United Future has supported this legislation, and we do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022b065559f78aa48a6bcd2e0b21d64cb81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b065559f78aa48a6bcd2e0b21d64cb81\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I waited to take the call on behalf of the ACT party on this legislation so that I could listen to the contribution from United Future. I was in the Chamber in the Committee stage when a United Future member made quite a point of noting the things that United Future thought were still wrong with the law in this area, and complaining about the burden it put on employers, then, at the end of what I thought was an excellent speech, saying that they would vote for it because it was better to take a step towards a target than not to take any step at all. [Interruption] Mr Adams is pleased. He says that what I am saying is so true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat baffled me, of course, was why when United Future knew that it held the balance of power it did not simply use it to stipulate what was right, to do what was proper to achieve a law that actually helped employers. I am not talking about the big employers such as the employer of Theresa Gattung. I am not concerned about the hundreds of thousands of dollars that she could hold her employers to ransom for by showing that she has been working on the weekends. I am not even speaking for Carter Holt Harvey, which finds that it gets employees with 100 days accrued sick leave, or for the meat companies that have found that since the law was changed in April, employees now take 50 percent more sick days than they did before, and that because Monday is a convenient day for employees being off, they sometimes cannot start the chain. No, I am thinking about the ordinary backbone employers of this country, such as the electrician whose wife is doing the books and keeping the wage records at night, after she has done everything else for the family, and trying to make head or tail of a law that the Government could not make head or tail of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill amends law that was drafted by the union because the employers, business people, and even the unions were silly enough to ask a Labour Government to fix a longstanding sore in our employment law. The Holidays Act had been a problem for decades. The Holidays Act had been confusing and there were anomalies in it, so the employers\u2014foolishly, in hindsight\u2014and the business people of this country said to a Labour Government: \u201CWould you please fix it.\u201D Well, the inevitable happened. The Government turned to its union paymasters and said: \u201COh, here\u2019s an opportunity. They want this on the agenda. Tell us what we should do.\u201D So we had an amendment to the Holidays Act that included every wish list of the unions, to the extent that they ended up with a de facto double-pay arrangement when people were not even working. When asked how this happened and why it was not foreseen, the answer of parties like the ACT party was: \u201CWell\u2014it was.\u201D It is the sort of thing we said would happen when the legislation was going through, but the Government ignored it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen it became a gross embarrassment to the Government, it said: \u201COh, well, we didn\u2019t think about it.\u201D There is a simple reason for that. When one has one\u2019s hand on the pen and one is drafting legislation, it is like a crossword\u2014one can understand the implications of all of those very complex interrelationships. But if one has just picked up what the paymaster has said to put through\u2014if one is a Minister who has just taken what the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions has designed\u2014it is not understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa0cf9ebe964f5db914b6a0c09f57d8\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe that the word \u201Cpaymaster\u201D in the context in which the member used it is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46472e029384959b732b200ce18fb81\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member for that. I am not sure that it was out of order. I invite the member to continue his speech, and I will listen carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986cc5852fa043718ace3a13d944060b\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: When I was a member of the Labour Party the relationship between it and the unions was one of its boasts. The union movement considered that the members were its representatives. It is interesting to me that this modern Labour Party, having pushed through a series of bills to pay back its supporters, is now taking objection to a speech in which I am saying that in a succinct way, and it is saying that it is unparliamentary to draw the connection. I see that Mr Swain is in the House. The Corrections Bill was basically for the corrections unions. However, back to where we were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a21b70e8cc9441c8c687180ace16bf9\u0022\u003EHon Taito Phillip Field\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member is well aware that a suggestion that any members of this House are under the influence or control of those outside is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0dc1d35f1b4294ac0961b3822d8dad\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is treading on thin ice. I refer him to Speakers\u2019 rulings 47/3 and 47/4, where it is stated that it is not in order to say that a member has been dictated to, dominated, has received instructions, or been directed. I ask the member to be very careful and I bring him to order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fd52f1904144a2ab2ef5fc0436c6acd\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I have been careful to avoid saying \u201Cdirected\u201D. I think that in many arrangements such as these it is willing on both sides, but that does not take away from the fact that it is give and take and quid pro quo for favours done. I have no doubt that in this case the Labour Party would have been delighted to be able to move to a more sensible holidays law because this is a political embarrassment for it, but it could not do so because it could not withstand the reaction it would get from its union backers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis is significant for ordinary employers because it is so complex that it changes the patterns of employment. This kind of law, together with the other changes that have been made, is part of the reason why we have consultants infesting so many areas. It is part of the reason why there are middlemen now living off the complexity of employment law, why there are contractors everywhere providing labour-only services, and why people do not do a lot of their own human resource management. It has become a job for experts. It is so hard to keep on top of Holidays Act requirements, harassment law, occupational safety and health requirements, and all the multifarious other obligations that the ordinary employer, the ordinary person who decides to start a business\u2014the ordinary electrician, as I said, the person who starts a restaurant or a cafe, the person who happens to be the poor part-time accountant for a charity\u2014is starting to say: \u201CIt\u2019s not worth it. Let\u2019s just get a contractor. I can\u2019t actually keep up.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EOf course, most employers have a decent relationship with their employees and they have a tacit mutual agreement to ignore the complexities of the law. They probably do not even bother with an employment agreement, even though that is now against the law. They actually have a straightforward, common-sense relationship between two people, which has been the pattern in New Zealand for generations. But they are taking a risk. They cannot comply with the law because it is too hard, so they rely on having decency on both sides. The problem with law such as this holidays legislation is that it is exploited by people who are not in that pattern. It is exploited by people who decide that cheating is worthwhile. And it is cheating\u2014it is dishonest to take a sickie when one knows that he or she will get double pay or pay and a half. It is a form of dishonesty, and it breeds in our employment environment a culture of Spanish practices, as it used to be called in the days when one was allowed to be racist about it. But it is a culture where cheating and pulling little tricks like this becomes normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf8dabac9254336b7c84d09585074e0\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: You should not be racist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc918fbc0b64d64b2edbd34a21dfcc9\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Has Mr Swain never used the term \u201CSpanish practices\u201D? He is disowning his past now, I take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen pulling one\u2019s weight was part of being employed, one recognised that by making a sick claim or making repeated sick claims\u2014a situation that, obviously, some employers are now facing\u2014one actually cheats oneself. Many employees try to justify their sick leave claims by feeling sick. The real effect is that that kind of chiselling at the truth goes through into other things. It becomes a conniving at breaching safety regulations, and avoiding a whole lot of requirements of the employer. The original intent of the holidays provision in a bill like this\u2014which was to allow everyone a chance to refresh, recharge their batteries, have weekends, and celebrate festival days together\u2014gets lost in a morass of fine analysis of the rules to take unfair advantage. I was interested, of course, that the Greens, I think, are opposing this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b72c13f2eab64927a4dea997589d57d8\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: We are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221ebe1bd81a9408db2ebfbf6ca8f315c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, Sue Bradford\u2019s experience of employment is with the unemployed workers union. It is very hard to know why the Greens do not see the deep irony in sending down here to talk about holiday pay for workers, someone who is proud of the fact that she has devoted most of her life to people who refuse to work. Most of her experience has been with people who would not have had paid holidays because they were not in employment. What we have, of course, is the double whammy of a union hand on the pen on this, and the Greens urging that it be made more severe, and United Future deciding not to rock the boat and voting with the Government, and the employer and the employers\u2019 wage clerks paying the price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022 data-id=\u00225303f8d29805460f837142123bfaed36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225303f8d29805460f837142123bfaed36\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it was interesting to hear that member speak. He has just displayed the utter contempt he has for the working people of this country. That speech was symptomatic of the way ACT thinks about the workers of this country. I found it very difficult to listen to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003EThe Holidays Amendment Bill was introduced to clarify some areas of uncertainty that arose with the introduction of some provisions of the Holidays Act. It was not intended as a review of the Government\u2019s core policies on holidays and leave entitlements. This Government believes that workers are entitled to a fair deal in their employment, and that the conditions surrounding leave, sick leave, and holidays are an important part of their employment conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003EA couple of issues have come up, and I want to correct some of the things that have been said. The issue of relevant daily pay has been raised as though it is some terrible bogey. Actually, there would be no need for the relevant daily pay provision to be in the bill were it not for the fact that over the last decade, the 1990s, the provisions of the Employment Contracts Act meant that workers\u2019 right to a reasonable living wage was eroded to the point that anyone who was off sick could lose up to half of his or her daily pay. Some people might think that that is all right. But if a person is on a low wage and sticking to a budget that is pretty close to the bone, it is very difficult to go off sick\u2014even though that person might need that sick leave\u2014if that person knows that half of his or her pay will go. That is because basic pay was eroded to the point where it was at the minimum wage level. Everything on top of that was regarded as a productivity bonus, or there was some other way of arranging it, so that people did not get their full pay unless they met pre-arranged targets. It was hugely unfair to the workers. It might have suited the employers, but it was hugely unfair to workers, and it meant that most employees did not take the leave that they needed and were entitled to. That issue of relevant daily pay is a problem only because employers, by their sharp practices, have made it a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003EThe issue of sick leave was quite difficult for the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee to grapple with. I agree with some of what Sue Bradford said, as I do not think it is anything like the problem that the employers have made it out to be. Some of the figures that were shown at the select committee were somewhat spurious, and I saw no proof for those figures. But I have to say that all of us who have worked know that there have always been a few people who were always off on a Monday or a Friday. Some employers\u2019 figures did show a pattern with some employees, and we thought that if there is a pattern of people taking advantage, and disadvantaging their workmates as well, then we need to put in a provision that will deal with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003EI think that the committee worked very hard to put in a provision that was fair to everyone. The employer cannot just ask someone for proof of sickness. The employer has to be able to show due cause, which means there has to be a pattern, or something similar, for the employer to be able to ask for proof of sickness, and we have said that if the employer chooses to do that, then the employer has to pay. I think that makes it fair to both parties. I know that workers who work with people who take advantage of their fellow workers in that way will appreciate it, as well. It is not a common practice, but it does happen occasionally. I think that we have put together some improvements that will make sure that the holidays legislation will function even better than it has before, and will make sure that the workers of New Zealand will get a fair deal and will get their leave entitlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6f0ac90f5984a4c95f2d049b63d41d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6f0ac90f5984a4c95f2d049b63d41d8\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker, Helen Duncan from the Labour Party, was on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and spent a lot of her time sneering and spluttering away at every employer\u2019s submission\u2014a more anti-employer Labour member one could not find. She is someone who has no understanding of the risks of employment, and she was not interested during the select committee process in any of the submissions made by employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThis bill is not one that Labour wanted to bring into the House; it is a bill that it had to bring into the House after Margaret Wilson totally messed up the holidays legislation. Margaret Wilson came into the Parliament, and passed one of her ideologically pure pieces of legislation around amending the holidays legislation. The National Party said at the time that it would not work, and voted against it. It did not work. Businesses all over the country either closed on public holidays or faced horrendous extra costs. In some areas, such as bereavement leave and sickness leave, the costs and the amount of leave taken have soared. The new Minister, in an attempt to quell what was a growing amount of noise around the issue, decided that he would pass legislation to fix it by Labour weekend. So here we are, passing this bill just a few days before Labour weekend, when every employer has said it will not fix the problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThere are two groups in Parliament who are supporting this bill: the Labour Party, and the United Future party. Labour has chosen to ignore the submissions. To give the Labour members credit, I acknowledge that they sat on the select committee, read the submissions, and listened to the submitters, whereas the United Future members did not. The Labour Party made a decision to ignore the overwhelming weight of the submissions. It decided that the Retailers Association, the Hospitality Association of New Zealand, Air New Zealand, Business New Zealand, Carter Holt Harvey, the meat industry, and Heinz-Wattie Ltd, all of whom appeared before the committee\u2014not to mention all the groups that did not appear before the committee but gave written submissions\u2014were wrong, and that Labour was right. We will see whether Labour is right. We will see over the Christmas holidays whether businesses do open over the Christmas and New Year period. The information we have had\u2014and, I suspect, that the Minister has had, as well\u2014is that they will not. The hospitality industry has said that this bill solves nothing. The manufacturing sector, in particular, is worried about it. Those employers who manufacture 7 days a week are very concerned about this legislation, and many of them are saying they will reconfigure their shifts so that they do not open. This bill does not solve the problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe Government made the choice, in its arrogance, to ignore everything it was told. The United Future members have made the same choice, not out of arrogance but out of ignorance. They have not read anything, but at least they have been honest enough to tell the business community they did not read its submissions. They did not alert the business community to the way they would vote. They keep that secret throughout the process, but they did support one group of employers. United Future did decide that the Brethren Church could have what it wants, but not the Catholics, the Methodists, the Protestants, or the agnostics. It is too bad for them. They cannot get what they want, but the Brethren Church can get what it wants. So United Future voted for what the Brethren Church wanted, but not for what anybody else wanted. I am not sure of the logic behind that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI have to say that a United Future member, whose name I forget\u2014what is his name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d30772bb5da240bc932017e5b69f56ab\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CGrisly Adams\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe3fe301cd94e46be33e3432e0a5775\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Adams has at least told members of the business community that he did not read their submissions. He told them that he made his decision without having any regard to them. He has stuck to a line that basically says Labour wanted this legislation and United Future thought it would help. He has said United Future is sorry it did not talk to businesses and did not listen to the submissions, but that if the legislation does not work United Future will support businesses next time around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213fb160b8c9949f0baf5b16fee3356b2\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCome back to us!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da86689a095c48f0ab65cd52f1cfbc31\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, \u201CCome back to us!\u201D, as the ACT member said. That is about as weak as one could get. In the House Mr Adams likened this measure to taking a bite from an elephant. So the problem he likens to the size of an elephant, and the fix he likens to one bite of it, and he says not to worry because business can come back to United Future! The mess regarding holidays is not fixed by this bill, and I ask the United Future member how he can come into the House and give a speech like the one we just heard. Mr Adams said he is really, really disappointed that people did not back the Brethren Church, but is United Future prepared to back employers from other religious denominations? What is the difference? How can the member say he will vote so that members of the Brethren Church have a choice around union membership, but not members of other churches? How can he say that? I do not know how he can say that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI do not want to rain on Mr Adams\u2019 parade, but the other reason I want to ask him how he can say that is that, unfortunately for Mr Adams, the clause concerning the Brethren Church is in the next bill that we are to consider. It is not in the Holidays Amendment Bill; it is in the employment relations bill. So the amendment he was talking about, which he was disappointed people had not voted for, actually is not in the bill. He nods, and says that is a fair point. He is on to it! He is sharper than the average bear. That man did not read the submissions and did not sit on the committee, but he came to the House and bleated about people who did not support an amendment that is not even in the bill but is an amendment to a different bill that is to be considered in a different debate, at a later time. But by gosh, has he got business interests at heart! Is he not sensitive! Is he not sensitive to their needs and concerns! That is why, when businesses criticise him, he gets very irate\u2014but, by gosh, he is on to their concerns! I know that the members of the business community who are listening to the debate are saying to themselves that it was really worth the effort to lobby the United Future party, because it really listened to them! That speech made by that member really showed that up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EFinally, I say to the Minister that there are people around this country who work on public holidays because they enjoy the extra money they get over that time. The Minister nods. I am talking about students, in particular. Many of those students will now be denied the opportunity to have a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abff69702b18443bb26585897ba84b27\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271348151d14b49cb98e87524362f3c9e\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Because the hospitality industry, for example, gave us examples at the select committee whereby employers are now writing contracts that exclude public holidays. Employers are saying that they will hire people and that they can work on every day except the public holidays. I say to the Minister that that means two things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7af7b76a2a043d2ba6698acf075608f\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: This summer! This summer they will get less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227732485371b44cacb4c19de8bc666578\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: This summer\u2014that is right. Employers will either close on public holidays or, as they told the select committee, they will pay people to work on the public holidays\u2014and they will not be the regular staff or the students the employers have hired; they will be mates, and other people\u2014by way of something like a bar tab. We heard them say at the select committee that that was what the Government would force them to do. The Government is forcing businesses into closing or, if they want to open, into doing something in the black economy. Is that what the Government wants? The Government members sit in silence. Why did the Labour members on the select committee not tell the Minister that that was what people were saying? Why did Ross Wilson not explain that to the Minister when he was in the lobby? Why did he not explain it then? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EWhat we have seen with this bill is a hopeless process that was all about spin, rather than substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c70197ced25c4dd0b61be4a927c3c343\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s hurtful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eea350e8e3ca48f684778c6bf69d9bfd\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister does not care, I know, about this stuff. But I say to the Minister that this bill does not fix the problem, and he is hurting some of the very people whom he purports to be trying to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00228531ccd6189d4227b13538159af411ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228531ccd6189d4227b13538159af411ac\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Let me say to the members opposite that farmers, when they get into a bit of strife, threaten not to put the rams out, but they do put the rams out, and do members know why they put the rams out? Because their neighbours will. I have had dealings with the hospitality industry for some considerable time, and I know very well that as soon as one hotel opens they all will open\u2014on Christmas Day and on any statutory holiday. When their competitors are open they will be open, and they will employ staff, and they will pay them, and in Queenstown right now they are paying them a premium because they need them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003ESo I say to members opposite that they should stop their bleating. They are 13 points behind in the polls, and here they are having a go at poor old United Future. What is the net gain of their undermining United Future? It is 2 percent. Maurice Williamson understands numbers; he knows how dumb that is. We are the guys those members should be attacking\u2014not the United Future members. They are not National\u2019s problem. United Future will not be the Government. We are the Government, and if National members cannot take stripes off us, they will never take stripes off anybody. I find the Opposition\u2019s dealings with this particular bill to be quite extraordinary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThe only member in the House who was happy at the conclusion of Rodney Hide\u2019s speech, as Michael Cullen was speaking, was Stephen Franks. Stephen Franks had a grin all over his face when Rodney Hide was getting done, because Stephen Franks knew that his time is not up yet. He has not quite joined National yet, and he still has an opportunity to be ACT leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI want to say one thing about this bill that is really important. I was in Australia quite recently, and I talked to quite a number of members of Parliament there. I talked to Liberal members of Parliament, National Party members of Parliament, Independent members of Parliament\u2014and very few Labor members of Parliament, because they were all out door-knocking in the election campaign that was going on. I told them that a debate was going on in New Zealand on the Holidays Act. They asked what the debate was about, and I told them that we wanted to give workers 4 weeks\u2019 paid leave from 2007, and that the National Party over here was saying that was outrageous. They asked what planet those members were on. People over there have had 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave for 30 years. They asked why we punished our workers so much. Even the National Party and the Liberal Party in Australia know that one should not punish workers like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003ELeave is very important to people who work their guts out for the boss. And that is what workers do. Workers do not go to work and shirk. I worked in a pie factory on one occasion. It was great work, and hard. The people there worked hard. I worked in a supermarket, lumping sacks of spuds around. I was so fit\u2014it was great. Workers work hard, and they need time off. Even members opposite need time off. They probably need time off now to start door-knocking. [Interruption] They do get 4 weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI suppose that we should not be too surprised that National opposes this measure, because it is going back to its old philosophy, and its old philosophy is that it would sell Christmas. The National Party would sell Christmas. Don Brash will take a holiday\u2014he will take your holiday. He will not take Mr Speaker\u2019s holiday; he will take the workers\u2019 holiday. Mr Speaker will always get a holiday; we will make sure of that. National would take the workers\u2019 holidays, and that is outrageous in the extreme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThis bill is a good bill. I am a little bit sorry that, at the end of the day, the Greens could not find their way clear to support it. This bill is a good bill that tidies up some areas of concern in the legislation. I suppose that if we have come to a point where both ACT and the Greens disagree with the bill, we have got it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7ef3ecfb6cf405e9ac350436a49e8ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7ef3ecfb6cf405e9ac350436a49e8ff\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make it clear to the drive-time audience out there listening to me tonight, waiting to hear about this bill, that this bill\u2014the Holidays Amendment Bill\u2014that we are trying to do a third reading of tonight is really what is referred to out in the business world as a fix-up of the muck-up. I accept that one has to be careful how one says that, and I will not say it quickly. It is a fix-up of the muck-up. Last year this Government passed the Holidays Act, and it was told at the time that it was a muck-up. That was even mentioned in the minority report of the select committee. The Government was told. United Future, the common-sense party, even voted against it because it was such a hopeless bill. The Government was told that there would be consequences that would be enormously damaging to business. But did the Government listen? No, it did not listen. There was not a mutter, not a murmur, not a syllable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhat happened is now legendary. The disastrous results for business, in terms of the extra costs that it sustained from that legislation, had to be addressed. Margaret Wilson got the sack because the North Korean and Cuban model was not working. Then \u201CSwainy and the boys\u201D were brought in to do the fix-up of the muck-up. Well, we have to say to Paul Swain, the Minister of Labour, that this bill is a very, very bad way to fix up a huge muck-up. I shall use United Future\u2019s analogy. United Future members, bless them, said in the House today, and during the Committee stage, that they know that this bill does not fix it up properly, and that, frankly, they saw it as taking a bite out of an elephant. How does one eat an elephant? One bite at a time was United Future\u2019s answer. Well, my response to United Future members in the Committee stage was to say: \u201CHow does one swallow a dead rat? Whole!\u201D. That is what this bill is; this bill is a dead rat that we are being forced to swallow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhat I found interesting about the analogy\u2014to take it a little bit further\u2014was that a member from United Future went on about the rights of Brethren, about how disappointed he was that his amendment about that issue was not being supported, that that was an outrage, and that people should support his amendment. It turned out that that issue was not even in this bill! When United Future members took a bite out of the elephant, it was the wrong elephant! The elephant that they meant to have a bite from is wandering around blissfully unaware of anything, and there is another elephant somewhere with a huge chunk out of his bum that United Future took, and he does not know why! That is how informed United Future is on this bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ELet us get serious about what this bill actually is supposed to do. It is supposed to say to somebody that if he or she is on leave and gets sick, then he or she should not be getting the unbelievably stunningly weighted levels of payment that the Holidays Act entitles that person to. But the most insidious little element in this whole thing is something called equivalent daily pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dc5ab925eb3442788925390ed48aa53\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d52eb5d9ee8341e2992b9341ed63b0d3\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I get equivalent and relevant mixed up. The Minister is correct. I tell members and the drive-time audience listening to this what that relevant daily pay means. Not only\u2014[Interruption] They heard that I would be on; there is a big audience out there, I can tell members. Not only does a person get his or her basic pay in this relevant daily pay; the Minister says we should add on all the things that the person could be entitled to while he or she is working. I can understand why some workers get extra things. I am a big fan of bonus payments. If people turn in a staggeringly good performance of the job they are supposed to do, if they produce thousands more widgets than the manager thought they would, they should get a bonus because they achieved fantastic things for the company. I do not ever support some of the things that I used to get when I was a driver for Refrigerated Freight Lines, Wattie\u2019s, and so on. We used to get wet money, and cover money if we had to put tarpaulins on, and rope money, and all that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut this is the rub. The Government said that it would work out a person\u2019s relevant daily pay by taking that person\u2019s basic rate\u2014and that is accepted\u2014then adding on all those things that the person could get in specific circumstances. If a person was working out in the pouring rain, the Government would give him or her some relevant daily pay for it\u2014an extra bit. If a person had to put on covers and ropes, or have a trailer or other extra conditions, the Government would add it in. But here is the nonsense: a driver from that trucking company who is on holiday on the Gold Coast, who is sunning himself in sunny Queensland, could, because of all those extra calculations, be paid more than the poor old driver working back here where it is not actually raining, and he does not have to use any covers or ropes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c21de6124b43aa9157b2258b958964\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: He may get sweat money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258a75140dc2a4241a60515e184fa5f2e\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: He might have sweat money. How bizarre is that? I want to get this clear; I think I have got this right. I understand that the relevant daily pay will be calculated based on the last 4 weeks\u2019 pay. So the incentive is for someone to take vacation time straight after he or she has had a bonus payment. Bonus payments often come as a big spike, as Mr Tamihere will tell members. A person\u2019s wages just run along in a flat line, then a big spike comes when that person gets a massive bonus. I am sure that John Tamihere, as the Minister for Small Business, knows how that works in small business. So what will a person do? He or she will take his or her holidays in the 4 weeks after that big spike, so that his or her relevant daily pay has a big lump added into it\u2014so the average is fantastic. Why would a person take his or her holidays 5 weeks later, when that spike\u2019s effect has gone through? How mad is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EHere is the rub. Labour members can go on all they like in the House\u2014and they have\u2014saying National Party members do not know what they are talking about, are hopeless, and so on. Members should forget about that. What did all of the major employer groups, all the major businesses, and even some of the Government-owned businesses say? Air New Zealand, bless its little heart, is owned by the Government, because of mismanagement by Michael Cullen and so on in not allowing Singapore to lift the cap and buy in\u2014but, never mind, it is a Government-owned airline now. It said that the Act was already costing it a fortune, and that this amendment bill would not fix it. That is what it said. Heinz-Wattie, Carter Holt Harvey\u2014I cannot remember them all; there is a plethora of them\u2014said the same. I would be very happy to yield my time to the Minister so that he could tell us why he did not listen to the plethora of submissions from businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df72e93d9fdd4c30a14481224b03b5d0\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s from the unions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e64da3690b494676b1124d32025063a0\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. He comes from the North Korean model side of things. I think I heard him say at one stage that employers were all right, but he would not want his daughter to marry one\u2014I think that was his line. Perhaps he said that some of his best friends were employers\u2014although he does not like to say that too often in the Labour caucus. That is what Labour members think of employers\u2014that they are evil and are out there to drive workers into the ground. It is the old cloth-cap, Joe Hill, 1920s, North American railway worker\u2019s view. Well, that is not how it works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhat about the entertainment industry and the hospitality industry, which made it quite clear that if this bill was the fix-up of the muck-up, then they would literally not be able to open on a public holiday, or they would open through the devious means of giving special payments to somebody who was not part of the normal workforce, or, worse still, they would do what they have done up to now, which is add a premium to their charges?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f370f2d5d340f48a2a9b2bdcf1a57f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table sick leave hours and wages figures from the Alliance meatworks in Nelson, which are pertinent to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641a76c9f8544fc1ac51de45241443fc\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted to have 2 minutes and 5 seconds remaining\u2014although it will be less than that now. But I am indebted to my colleague Nick Smith for tabling those figures, because they reaffirm what we have heard from a number of various industries\u2014that the cost of the Holidays Act, which was put in place by the Government, the cost of the muck-up that the Government made, has put prices and costs for companies through the ceiling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWe wanted to see United Future putting the blowtorch to the Government, telling the Government that unless it fixed the bill properly it would not have the support of United Future. The Greens are not supporting this legislation, New Zealand First is not supporting this legislation, and National most certainly is not supporting it. The only way that the Government is getting it through is by relying on United Future. So the power lay in its hands, absolutely. Paul Adam\u2019s lame analogy of taking one bite out of an elephant really should be treated with the contempt\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bc2282a8d924e18b98a538ff6a7a323\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e9308f505854f349136096c3da8e410\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I hear one of my colleagues say \u201CWhat?\u201D. That is what Mr Adams said\u2014that the whole Holidays Act is an absolute muck-up, but this fix-up of the muck-up is the equivalent of taking a bite out of an elephant. Mr Adams then went on to give a long speech about how United Future members supported the view of the Brethren on this legislation, and so on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c1d8f61e3804eb8b9b8395e155c6615\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: He was speaking to the wrong bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022847e4d8921f94eb9892f0e67460781d4\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; so he has even taken the bite out of the wrong elephant! But it is sad that United Future did not put the blowtorch to the Government, point out that United Future is the party of common sense\u2014although that is very debatable\u2014and tell the Government that what United Future wanted it to do was to fix up the muck-up, not just tinker with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EMr Adams used another analogy, which I thought was very dangerous in military terms. He said that this bill is taking us one step closer to the target. Well, one has to be very careful when one is out on the rifle range, because often target ranges have been set up on minefields. If one takes one step forward, that may be one\u2019s last step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EAs far as I am concerned, I have no respect for a Government that was warned of the consequences\u2014and it was\u2014then comes back and says that they were unintended consequences, and that that is what we are fixing up. The bill is a disgrace and National is going to vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00228699b104a64e42bd86e90fc445394993\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228699b104a64e42bd86e90fc445394993\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229882803c195642cabca2aae2b2cb196a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Holidays Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227acefd2b9c6a4812b26687090bae884d\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227acefd2b9c6a4812b26687090bae884d\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227acefd2b9c6a4812b26687090bae884d\u0022\u003EHuman Rights Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222774947ea1c949d29d10fd92a9dd4712\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022de894a2bd9384d3d93ac73b10ebd3c2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de894a2bd9384d3d93ac73b10ebd3c2e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Employment Relations Amendment Bill (No 2), the Health and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Human Rights Amendment Bill be now read a third time. The Employment Relations Bill (No 2) amends the Employment Relations Act, which is by and large working well. How do we know that? Well, the Leader of the Opposition, Don Brash, said so. Having said once that he would repeal, or scrap, the Employment Relations Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022398ba045396d44518ac0e2a35ec0b701\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: By lunchtime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022343c9a7b52a6489c9a0ad45da8c1b332\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014probably by lunchtime. In fact, lunchtime itself will be gone by lunchtime, if one listens to what the National Party is saying. Don Brash is now saying that employers think the Employment Relations Act is a good Act, so National will keep it. Now, what he is concerned about is this legislation, and, of course, it is always one more bill that he is not happy about. But we did say at that time that we would review the Employment Relations Act, and we have. The Employment Relations Bill (No 2) and the other two bills before us are the outcome of that review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI would like to focus on a couple of issues in response to a some matters that were raised during the Committee stage. The first point concerns \u201Cfreeloading\u201D or \u201Cpassing on\u201D. If one is a union the issue is about freeloading\u2014that is, people getting the benefits of bargaining without making any contribution, or, as many of the delegates have said, it is like someone who does not pay his or her taxes and expects to get free health-care. So the unions have most concern about that, and I am hoping the member also agrees with that. On the other hand, for employers it is an issue to do with \u201Cpassing on\u201D. So it is \u201Cfreeloading\u201D if one is a union , and \u201Cpassing on\u201D if one is an employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EOne of the critical things was how we get the relationship right between those who are on collective agreements and those who are on individual contracts. It is important to say, right from the start, that employers are not prevented from providing all their employees with the same terms and conditions of employment, so long as the bargaining has been carried out in good faith. Some of the employers were worried about whether they could have employment contracts people on one rate and individual contracts people on the other. In other words, could they have collectives and individuals on the same rate. The answer is yes. We made it quite clear and specific in the legislation, that one could do that, provided good-faith bargaining occurs. There cannot be anything wrong with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe next point is about the bargaining fee arrangement. It is not compulsory. I have heard a number of ridiculous and silly comments made in this House by people who wanted to work themselves into a lather about this, found that it was not what they thought it was, but continued in a lather, all the same. I want to say that the contribution made by Peter Brown on this has been, I think, quite measured on the basis that he considered that these particular provisions were quite reasonable. The bargaining fee arrangement will happen only where there is a willing employer, a willing union, and an acceptance by affected employees. Unions cannot strike over bargaining fees, and they cannot refuse to conclude a collective agreement, just because they want the agreement to include a bargaining fee clause. The legislation is quite clear on that. Even where the employer, the union, and the majority of employees in a secret ballot agree to have bargaining fees, individual employees can still opt out. The bargaining fee provisions give employers, unions, and employees another way to address union concerns about freeloading, extend the benefits of collective bargaining, and still protect the integrity of individual choice. So let us go through the issues again. If people want to have a bargaining fee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a12444b0faf41cb8a48128c6dce4104\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: What would it be\u2014100 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f3bd1027f1d4a369be7b4e0a23b5866\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is not specific, but clearly when it comes to a ballot the amount of the bargaining fee would need to be included in the clause on which people are voting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2d02bdb5d584cee9b10b152e6902db7\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Do you agree it should be less?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f75b9317d4ff43338aa9a60c8a16d396\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I think the legislation says something like it will not be any greater than that. The point really is that, first of all, the union and the employer have to agree. Peter Brown is quite right when he says that no employer is going to be bullied on this sort of thing. [Interruption] That member does not have the same view of the employers that Peter Brown has, which is what I have. If people do not want to have this, it will not be in it. Firstly, employers and unions have to agree. Secondly, there has to be a ballot of the members who are covered potentially by that particular collective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a954be81296c47cdbf9f2f0ce2de70c8\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: In many cases the majority will be unionists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7000c9313894fe993ef5bc77f6cd60a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is potentially true. A majority could be unionists and it could expect to go through. So what did the Government do? It says that we cannot have, in this case, the tyranny of the majority. What we do say is that if some people want to opt out, they can. It is just a simple matter of saying: \u201CI don\u2019t like this arrangement; I\u2019m out of here.\u201D I am trying to ask that member what is wrong with that. People who want to get the benefits of the collective\u2014that is, the benefits that people have paid for to get the wages and conditions improved\u2014somehow say that people who do not have to pay anything should make a contribution. What is wrong with that? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But we have gone one step further and said that if people do not want to be part of the union, that is fair enough because there is free choice. People do not have to be part of the union and the collective. They can opt out. What is wrong with that? There has been some criticism that it is a bit loose. I say to the House that\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df9ee3424f6a45b29cd2db63da697449\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Union mates, I guess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae451fe7a8e84ae0a372ca8c34fd7c3f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, \u201CUnion mates\u201D\u2014this is ridiculous! We think that, by and large, this provision will be used quite rarely. It will be used in places where there is high unionism and where, in fact, a number of employers say they would quite like to have one arrangement. It will be interesting to see how the measure proceeds. It is a very gentle bargaining arrangement. Peter Brown, who has just arrived, says that it is quite reasonable, and I agree with that. It is a shame he could not bring himself to recognise the full benefits of the legislation that the Government proposed, so that he could support it in its entirety. However, I do recognise that he voted for this clause, and I thank him for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EAnother important issue is the test of justification of personal grievance cases. The test now reinforces a fair and reasonable approach. Most people, including Employment Court judges, made good submissions on it. Employers\u2019 actions and how they go about them must reflect what a fair and reasonable employer would have done in the circumstances. So that particular clause was improved by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. It has a lot more common sense, and I thank the members of the committee for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe Government supports the promotion of best practice so that employers can use the correct procedures with relative ease and avoid costly mistakes. As I stated before, I will be looking at ways to give more guidance to employers and employees around personal grievance issues, especially the procedural requirements for dismissals and disciplinary actions. Irrespective of what legislation we have, there will always be personal grievance arrangements. There were under the Employment Contracts Act. That is just the way of things. At some stage, employers will want to dismiss someone, for whatever reason, and the employee might say that it is not fair. There will always be some dispute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that, generally speaking, the provisions around all those things, whatever the legislation, are not particularly clear. One of the criticisms I hear from some of the employers is that a lot of people get caught procedurally when in fact it is the substance of the issue that is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to comment on the introduction of protections for the most at-risk employees. In sale, transfer, or contracting-out, a higher level of protection has been given to those employees who have been most vulnerable to restructuring situations in the past. Those employees will have the right to transfer to the new employer on the existing terms and conditions of employment, and are those in the cleaning and food catering industries. To accommodate future change in the labour market and in employment practices, we have built in a clear process for amending the groups of employees who will have a statutory right to transfer in restructuring situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EOther employees will be given protection though a requirement for their employment agreements to contain a provision that describes what steps the employer will take to protect employees affected by a sale, transfer, or initial contracting-out situation. The details of those provisions will be a matter for agreement between employer and employee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI acknowledge, firstly, the contribution of the Hon Margaret Wilson to the legislation. Both the Employment Relations Act and the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill reflect her commitment to an employment relations framework based on cooperation rather than confrontation, and I salute her for that. I also thank the members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. I also thank the officials for the work they have done. They got slagged a bit in the Committee stage, and I found that quite reprehensible; I thank them for the huge amount of work they have put into this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe bills represent another step forward towards building an employment relations framework encompassing fair minimum standards and promoting productive employment relationships. I commend the Employment Relations Amendment Bill (No 2), the Health and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Human Rights Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002298c948ff84224467836b7062be4a6f86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298c948ff84224467836b7062be4a6f86\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Eighty percent of all workers in our country\u20141.7 million New Zealanders\u2014have said no to unions, clearly and emphatically. That is what they said. When people have had a clear choice they have left unions in droves, and have never returned. There is one reason only for this bill, and that is to boost union power and membership. This is Labour\u2019s debt repayment to the unions. It is the price it paid for the support of the Council of Trade Unions. There is nothing in these bills to promote productivity or workplace harmony, but there is everything in them to promote unions, to boost their power, and to deny choice to New Zealanders to choose their own bargaining arrangements. Instead they are forced against their wills into unions in order to have money extracted from their wages and paid to the unions for funding the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI make a prediction tonight that the only parties to vote for the bill will be the Labour Party, the Green Party, and the M\u0101ori Party. We have heard a lot of cant from the other side about conspiracies between the M\u0101ori Party and other parties in this House, but on these kinds of issues, members know where Labour is looking to. It is looking to the M\u0101ori Party and to the Green Party, and that is the shape of the coalition it would put up to the country at the next election. New Zealanders have every reason to be afraid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis legislation is a return to the bad old days. For 50 years, from 1940 to 1990, we had compulsory unionism in this country. Those were the years of New Zealand\u2019s economic failure. We were consistently below the OECD in our growth rate. We started off in the 1950s with the third-highest living standards in the world. Forty years later, we were twentieth and sliding rapidly. Why did that happen? Frankly, it was due to union power. That is the simple truth. Unions extracted huge monopoly payments in particular areas\u2014the wharfs, the freezing works, the railways. Workforces were grossly inflated, and there was appalling productivity, and feather-bedding all round. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe reality is that even Mr Swain knows the truth of that. Any fair-minded people in this Parliament, across all the parties, would know the truth of that. I can tell members that people actually made the choice to join labouring workforces rather than go to tertiary education. Why did they do that? They did it because it paid more. The price the country paid was lower productivity, and the reality is that our country went backwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI have to acknowledge that that turned around, starting, I guess, in 1984. That party will turn the clock backwards. What it is promoting is an effective return to monopoly union power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe will see multi-employer collective contracts and a constant pattern of strikes. Frankly, we have already seen that happen. One has only to look at the first warning shots, the wharf strike at Ports of Auckland. People came from Australia and from Tauranga with the clear and total objective of getting one national award across all the ports. What followed from that was lower productivity, feather-bedding practices, and strikes at critical times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOur economy is uniquely vulnerable. We are more dependent on primary-product exports than any other developed country in the world. Everyone knows that to be true. Therefore, strategic strikes paralyse our country. They are intended to extract monopoly pricing, and feather-bedding practices, and this Government delivers precisely that to them. Why does it do that? Because its members are all unionists, including the Minister. That is the truth of it, and this is their pay-off to their old ideological allegiances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E We have six fundamental reservations about the legislation. The first is that the collective contract processes will be used to extract bargaining fees. The Minister will deny that, but the essence of voluntary unionism is such that one has to join the union. Under Labour\u2019s approach, people will now have to pull out of the union. It is a fundamental reversal of the principle of human rights whereby people join the organisations they want to join, and are not dragooned or forced into them, as this legislation will do, and then have to pull themselves out against, no doubt, antagonistic union members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe second objection is that the legislation promotes collective contracts over individual contracts. Right through the legislation there are a whole series of measures that force employers to sit down with unions in order to negotiate collective contracts. Employers do not have the right to say they object. That is prohibited, to the point of incurring a fine. That leads us to the third fundamental objection. Honest and robust negotiations are likely to lead to fines. Do members know why? Because the union will say that honest and robust negotiations are a breach of good faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f837dac009d94a1ba0e17deffe722271\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what they all say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f53d6a730b14de88eaf6c1bbd597655\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly what they will say, and unions will go to the employment authority and effect fines of $10,000. That is a chilling and dangerous precedent to set. No other Western country has that provision in its industrial law. This Government is sending us back to the sorts of practices we would expect to see in Stalinist Russia\u2014the sorts of things, frankly, that I thought we had left behind 15 or 20 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe fourth fundamental objection is that the authority will now be able to set the terms of employment contracts. The right of free will, and the ability of people to negotiate their bargains, is lost. We are going back to the old practice of national award-setting\u2014of mediation whereby the terms of the deal are not just facilitated but are actually set. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe fifth objection is that the legislation destroys value in businesses. This employment relations legislation can properly be called the \u201CBusiness Value Destruction Bill\u201D, whose effect will be particularly acute for small businesses in the service sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EFinally, there is a sixth problem. One would think it extraordinary that after a year of discussion on the issues of the treaty, what does Labour do\u2014a year after \u014Crewa? The Government is bringing into employment law the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Surely the Minister cannot actually believe in doing that, yet he is precisely promoting it. Maybe he is on instruction from Margaret Wilson, because it is the sort of thing one would expect her to put into legislation. He is pursuing an agenda that is divisive for our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022925bdf7296d948a49b05efb6b06de553\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CSwainy and the girls\u201D now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aee704dfc46c44dcbb7ad11421a34454\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CSwainy and the girls\u201D! I want to say very briefly what National will do. We will stamp out union preferences in legislation. We will fix up the personal grievance procedures. We will give young workers a real opportunity to get employment, with probation periods for 90 days, or thereabouts. Interestingly enough, Mr Tamihere supports that, but his voice is about to disappear from this Government and, I suggest, ultimately from this Parliament. This country is faced with a very clear choice: people can vote for Labour, the Greens, and the M\u0101ori Party, and what they will get is union power\u2014more and more of it, over time. The other choice is the choice of freedom, opportunity, and prosperity\u2014that is, to vote National for the freedom of workers, employers, and the people of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002280ae88c5d7534fdf91b2f8b070b78165\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280ae88c5d7534fdf91b2f8b070b78165\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E After listening to Wayne Mapp, I have to say I expected him to break into something that sounded a bit like \u201CFriends, Romans, countrymen\u201D, or something like that, because it was such a melodramatic performance. Depicting doom, gloom, despondency, and disaster was just a bit over the top and does Mr Mapp no credit, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I thank the Greens for the role they played as the legislation went through the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. They worked cooperatively to help improve the legislation, so that it creates a balance for employees and employers. That is the reality of the situation, without the dramatics we just heard from Wayne Mapp. The claims that National is making about these amendments leading towards compulsory unionism are just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b529e7e41f5a428ba4e2c2a8718bd671\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Old mantra.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c739a466d9544dd9bdb7a826f8927b8\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014as my colleague Paul Swain said, an old mantra. We have heard it all before, years ago. None of National\u2019s dire predictions came to pass, nor will any of the silly statements it has made during this debate come to pass, either. This is good legislation and it creates a balance for employees and employers. I am very pleased to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002281e48817253e458592daa387be3c3045\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281e48817253e458592daa387be3c3045\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Whilst I do not agree with the member who just resumed her seat, I have to say that I thought she took a more rational approach than my honourable colleague of a few moments ago. He was saying that this legislation will give unions strength to the degree that we will go back to the bad old days. I think he was referring to the bad old days of the 1960s, when there was a low crime rate, when we could go outside our houses and leave the doors unlocked, when there was full employment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeb82b582ee941d39da50c7ca8d25fdd\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: No productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222cdf8003b404e1c90daf2c6db757222\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I will come to the issue of productivity\u2014when there was no traffic congestion, and when we were very much an egalitarian society. My honourable colleague said there was no productivity. Let me tell him that even in those good old days of the 1960s, which I think he tried to paint as the dark old days, we would handle cargo in the Port of Tauranga faster and more efficiently than in any Western port in the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ee553ba4444527adbfff238ebca6a4\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: That is actually not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc0253169be4d62849747a012697f5a\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member that that is true\u2014even in the 1960s, particularly with log and timber-type cargoes that got the port into the realm of being well-known. Things have improved since then in terms of productivity. I have heard the reflection against the watersiders. I am not going to defend the watersiders who have taken a strike in Auckland for whatever they want. They are trying to address the issue of casualisation. I do not know whether they are wrong or right\u2014I have not studied it. But I will tell members that there are no ports in the Western World that can handle cargo faster and more efficiently than\u2014again\u2014the Port of Tauranga. I would suggest that Auckland is not too far behind, but it is behind. Some of our other ports are up with the play, also. We should be proud of our productivity when it comes to ship handling and waterfront handling. No ship comes to New Zealand and gets an inferior service. There is no place in the Western World\u2014or even in the world, I would suggest\u2014that can load ships faster and more efficiently than we can in New Zealand. So let us get a few things in perspective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis legislation, however, does concern employers, particularly small employers. Large employers will take the attitude that if they do not like the country or do not get a fair go, they will move to Australia or somewhere else. They are no longer at the beck and call of the New Zealand economy. Small employers do not have the same luxury. They will either continue or close, and this sort of bill will make it harder for the small employer to make the positive decision of employing somebody. That is a real concern. But the concern is not because we have unions. Unions, by and large, are just part of society\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b235dfec80ce4d579a1c53112af9f33a\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, steady!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229098c75aeaac43488db3db03c6c4b98a\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Unions are part of society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227578eb420854dc09e56d50ffd33cf15\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: That might be a fair comment, but what about compulsory unionism?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268079d8208314deb9074d506ddec0a87\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not talking about compulsory unionism. I would not want that any more than I would want people to join New Zealand First on a compulsory basis. But I would not be telling the truth if I did not tell members that New Zealand First believes in collective strength. I am sure the honourable member over there wants to advance his party by getting a few more people in this place. He knows he can achieve that only by getting collective strength in the public arena. Collective strength is a very important facet of political life and industrial life. I do not think we should chastise unions or put a black mark against them because they want to have a stronger power base. That is not to say that we have to agree or roll over. That is not to say anything except that they exist, they are entitled to exist, and they want to strengthen their hand in the industrial environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EMuch has been much made of the bargaining fee arrangement. I say to honourable members that, first and foremost, the employers have to agree to it. They cannot be in breach of good faith if they say no. If employers do not agree with a bargaining agent type of arrangement, then they are not in breach of good faith. I should imagine that most employers, who have a majority of employees who are not in a union, will not agree. I would expect employers with a large union workforce, and who have a few people who do not belong to a union, to think seriously about the bargaining fee arrangement. But I am not expecting employers right across the country to agree to a bargaining fee arrangement. I do not want to insult employers by saying that they will be rolled over a barrel if they do not agree. I cannot accept that for one moment. If that does occur, I will have a good career after I leave this place because there is still a little bit of steel in my backbone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI am not expecting any major catastrophes as a result of the bargaining fee arrangement. I believe that the moderate unionists who have spoken to me have a case. I know that they have spoken to some of my colleagues. They do the work, they pay the money to set up an arrangement to do the negotiations, and then they see it passed on to all and sundry. It is human nature to have some concern about that. I believe that this arrangement will help them considerably. It will help both the employers and the workforce. As I said, the bargaining fee arrangement is not compulsory for the employer or for the workforce, either. They will vote by secret ballot if they want to proceed, and anybody who still does not want to proceed will have the opportunity and the ability to opt out. It will not be the end of the world. Ideally, unions should not have the monopoly on collective contracts. New Zealanders are not inferior to Australians\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aac344b9bc67436ea91ced2f33168201\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Labour doesn\u2019t believe in that and the member knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd9abc495de6415cb61c9d9f23d1b394\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I know it does not. I am saying that this is the best option we can get because Labour does not believe in what is the very best option. But New Zealanders are not inferior to Australians. My understanding is that collective contracts are working very, very well in Australia where a group of working people can get together and appoint their own bargaining agent and have a collective contract. We are kidding ourselves if we think that is not occurring here. The members on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee will remember several submitters telling us about independent collectives or covert collectives, or some such term. In other words, there are many workforces in this country where workers are all paid, effectively, on a collective contract, although it is written into the agreement that they are on individual contracts. New Zealand First says that it is about time we were honest with our own system. We know that the Government is not prepared to officially recognise collectives outside the union movement, so this bargaining fee arrangement has some merit. I believe it will be a short-term solution. I believe that in a few years\u2019 time we will come to our collective senses and say that collective arrangements could be negotiated by whoever wants to employ a bargaining agent. I fail to understand the rationale for blocking that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed054782b13d4eee9b6b18cdc0b056b0\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll have to have a National Government for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9340a21b3464015983f33ed82e74b97\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I correct the honourable member. There need only be New Zealand First teamed either with National or with Labour, to put a little more sense into the whole thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260757f15c7d542eb91132606a4a1f338\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re dead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f587b4a3d6ee4b46a5833b6fcc6a3ac2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to debate coalition arrangements with National\u2014not right now. We will talk to them, maybe, after the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say to United Future that this is the debate where that party can really talk about the Brethren clause. I felt that the United Future member was a little bit confused during the debate on the Holidays Amendment Bill, but this is the bill where it is appropriate to talk about that clause. I draw the United Future member\u2019s attention to the fact that New Zealand First supported him 100 percent with that clause. I only wish United Future had supported New Zealand First, and my colleagues in National, on the other bill, as we would have got a lot more sense into the Holidays Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u002230dc5376aa0f49708541983284008ad3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230dc5376aa0f49708541983284008ad3\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is pleased to see the Employment Relations Amendment Bill (No 2) in the House for its third reading\u2014the original Employment Relations Law Reform Bill having been broken into three constituent bills. The bill\u2019s progress thus far has been something of a long and winding journey and I am glad the legislation will finally see the light of day. Above all, with this bill the Green Party is delighted that at last we see protections in place for some groups of particularly vulnerable workers who risk losing their jobs and built-up entitlements when the business they work for is restructured or sold out from under them. Once this bill is in place, what was known as the transfer of undertakings provision in the original Employment Relations Bill will assist in the protection of cleaners, caterers, caretakers, orderlies, and laundry workers in the State sector and in some parts of the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI commend the Government for having the fortitude to push through with this, despite the scaremongering from large employers that led Labour to retreat on this provision the first time around in 2000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe only regret from the Green Party\u2019s perspective is that Labour has not been willing to include caregivers in rest homes in the schedule that covers vulnerable workers. Most people in this country, and MPs in this House, would, I believe, recognise that such caregivers are one of the most hard-working, essential, yet exploited groups of workers in New Zealand. Their wages are often the minimum rate\u2014around $9 or $9.50 an hour. The work they do is essential to the well-being of many of our most disabled elderly, and others, who need the best care and attention possible. Yet we pay these workers a pittance for work that is often physically and mentally demanding in the extreme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThese are also workers whose workplaces are at high risk of being sold because residential care is big business in this country. When rest homes change hands the staff concerned often go through a period of extreme anxiety and distress. Workers are in danger of losing their jobs and all the long-service leave and other entitlements they may have built up. I am sorry the Government did not see fit to support a Green Party amendment that would have seen caregivers in residential homes added to the schedule of vulnerable workers. I just hope they will be the first group to be added to the schedule, as soon as is practicable, through the new process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe Green Party also put up several other amendments to the bill during the Committee stage. One of these was aimed at strengthening good-faith provisions in cases where there are serious breaches by employers. The second amendment called for the bill to be amended to allow all employees who transfer to a new employer in a \u201Ctransfer of undertakings\u201D situation, the right to bargain for redundancy entitlements. Neither of these amendments was radical or out of hand. Again, I am sorry that Labour has not seen fit to support them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI turn to an issue in the original Employment Relations Law Reform Bill, which has now disappeared altogether. Part 2, as it was first drafted, was devoted to amending equal pay legislation. But it was completely inadequate in this day and age because of its refusal to deal with pay equity\u2014that is, equal pay for work of equal value. It was highly ironic that, at a time when the Government had just done a lot of excellent work through the Pay and Employment Equity Taskforce, it should introduce legislation that covered equal pay but left pay equity out. Fortunately, the majority of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee agreed with the bulk of submitters in this area, and in the end Part 2 was deleted wholesale from the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EIt is now critical that the Government does not just use this as an excuse to abandon the equal pay and pay equity \u201Cship\u201D altogether, but rather treats as a matter of urgency the need to draft distinct new legislation that builds on all the good work that has already been done in this area. I hope we will see, as the commentary on the bill points out, the development of robust equal pay and pay equity provisions being introduced in the very near future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWith regard to the bill overall as it was returned to the House, the Green Party congratulates the Government on being willing to learn from some of the weaknesses and failings of the original Employment Relations Act. We are pleased to support measures to strengthen collective bargaining, to further define and refine what is meant by good faith, and to tidy up matters in the area of personal grievances, so that this legislation is not such a bonanza for lawyers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe are also pleased to see some minor moves to take stronger measures against the problem of freeloading, which, sadly, has become endemic in many unionised and semi-unionised workplaces. The Green Party has every sympathy with workers who feel a natural resentment when colleagues doing the same or similar work in the same workplace get all the benefits of collective bargaining that have been hard won by the union, without those colleagues having to pay a cent for the privilege. We have therefore been happy to support moves through this bill to prevent the overt passing on to the collective\u2014when it is done with the intention of undermining the bargaining position of the union\u2014with the introduction of bargaining fee arrangements, when these are freely agreed to between the employer and the union. We believe that unions and employees should have the right to include arrangements within a collective agreement that will allow for non-union members to pay a bargaining fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ETo those on the right who argue that that is a return to compulsory unionism or a replica of the closed shop system in America, I say that that is total nonsense. Those agreements can happen only when both employee and union freely agree, and non-union employees will still have the right to opt out of that arrangement and negotiate directly with their employer on their own behalf. That is neither compulsion nor anything like the closed shop system. In fact, the Green Party would have liked to see much stronger measures taken against freeloading, but we accept that the tightly argued compromise contained in this bill is probably the best that could be achieved in the current climate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I would just like to note, once again, the way in which even the mildest of industrial relations reform seems to bring out the worst in certain parts of the business community. Although some big-business and employer submitters offered calm, rational submissions, pointing out, as they have every right to do, what they saw as wrong or right with this employment relations bill, others seemed to use this legislation as an opportunity to make the wildest claims about what will happen to the economy if it goes through. Sue Bradford made the point that, having been in Parliament for 2 years, she was starting to get used to fact that some parts of the business world always cry wolf, claiming that even the smallest change to the employment relations framework will result in businesses closing down or going off shore, high unemployment, and an economic disaster in general. That manifestly did not happen as a result of the Employment Relations Act, and I certainly do not believe we will see a host of business closures or an unemployment Armageddon as a result of this bill going through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWhat amazed Sue Bradford most of all this time around was the way in which so many employer submitters calmly told the select committee that the Employment Relations Act is working fine and to please not change it\u2014when so many of them had forecast doom and destruction in 2000\u2014especially given that the industrial relations bill is very moderate amending legislation, based in large part on the contribution of working-parties, which included employer representatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ETo finish, I would once again like to thank the Government for sticking to its guns with this bill, and for not caving in to unreasonable demands from some parts of the business community. I fully expect that when the next good industrial relations bill turns up, the business community will be saying how well everything is working with this one, as it turns its sights on the latest supposed atrocity from Labour and the Greens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u002221f34e170e444d97ad5bbdc576efc59f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221f34e170e444d97ad5bbdc576efc59f\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak on this employment relations legislation, which we will not be supporting. It is interesting to think of the many things that we say will happen and the things we say will not happen. It was not that long ago\u2014probably 7, 8, or 9 years ago, or maybe a little bit longer than that\u2014that we were starting to say to people that one of the biggest challenges we were going to face in the days ahead was that we would not have enough hours to work. We were going to have the 35-hour week, then the 30-hour week, and we were beginning to think about what people would do with all that leisure time. I think the people listening tonight will be wondering whether that leisure time is even on the horizon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ESome of the speakers today have said that this legislation is very pro-union legislation, and I tend to agree; it is definitely pro-union legislation. But I would not be able to speak strongly enough to say that I do not agree with having unions. If one says that one does not agree with having unions, then, on the other hand, one has to say that one cannot agree with having an association like an employers\u2019 association. Any association that represents members has to do the very best it can for its members. This is clearly payback time for the unions, and the unions have been trying to get far more out of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI do not like the term \u201Cgood-faith bargaining\u201D. What is good-faith bargaining, and who defines it? I think those are very good questions to ask. My understanding has been that when people get into a dispute, only one group actually has to pay to get a decision, and that group is normally the employers. The dispute will, without fail, end up in some type of employment court, and employers will have to pay to get a result. As a consequence of that fact, employers will often look at the cost of fighting a dispute and decide whether it is better to pay out. I do not like that sort of trend coming into our legislation. Workers, unfortunately, will always receive different rates of pay for different types of jobs. For one thing, there are different profit margins in different things. Therefore we can never get to a situation\u2014unless we go to communism\u2014where everybody gets paid the same amount of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWe seem to be deregulating everything these days\u2014except that in this legislation we are not deregulating people. We are not giving people the free right to choose. We are finding that forces are coming\u2014whichever way we want to look at it\u2014on to employees to toe a certain line. That is why United Future does not like this. I do not think it is a good thing to have disputes that cost one side more than the other. There is no doubt that this legislation will cost employers more than before, and United Future cannot support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThere is much in this legislation about employers having to divulge information to employees when changes are coming in a company. I think that is a very challenging situation. There may be changes in a company\u2014changes that an employer or a company owner is aware of\u2014that will affect staff, but it may not be in the best interests of the staff for that information to come out into the public arena too early. Firstly, that could affect the very viability of their jobs, and, secondly, it could mean that the business could degenerate because the employer does not have all the facts together about the proposed changes. Therefore I think employers must always have the ability to keep some information that may be commercially sensitive out of the sight of their employees until they get to a stage when they have some concrete evidence or a concrete process whereby they can go to their employees and say: \u201CThis is actually what\u2019s going to happen, and these will be your various options.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EUnder this legislation, if one is going to buy a business in some industries one has to take on the staff who work there. That may sound fair enough, but what if those very staff are the reason why the employer is having to sell the business? The poor person who takes it over will be stuck with the same problem, and therefore the business will not be able to progress. I think most business owners today always say that their staff are their strongest asset. Therefore they need to have the ability to make business decisions by weighing up all the factors involved, including the staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI have also mentioned that I understand the principle of contributing toward collective agreements, but what if an individual signing an agreement faces costs of his or her own that have arisen out of the process of putting their case to the employer? Will they be able to go the union and ask for a share of that cost? Maybe, because of that individual agreement, the whole of the collective agreement came up a level because that person had been able to convince the employer to pay them a little bit different. I do not think that person would have any chance of getting any contribution towards that cost. United Future will not be supporting this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00221e42bcd51e2040f092d2e2f1ae9d749c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e42bcd51e2040f092d2e2f1ae9d749c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise for the ACT party to debate, in this third reading, the final stage of the three bills that came out of the employment relations amendment package: the Human Rights Amendment Bill, the Health and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill (No 2), which is a very small one, and the Employment Relations Amendment Bill (No 2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EListening to debates on labour legislation is always painful because we literally have to listen to fools\u2014people who reason from their intentions and their wishes, but not from the way people actually work and from what actually happens. We have seen an explosion of lawyers in this area. When I started legal practice I do not think that the relations between employers and employees were noticeably any worse than they are now\u2014in fact, relations were possibly better than now\u2014but the notion that any lawyer could make a living out of employment law would have been just unbelievable. There might have been a couple of academics and a few people who practised before the Arbitration Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill is a guarantee of profits in boarding school fees for generations of lawyers. I think it was Dr Mapp who said that this is a Government that has been so badly burned by the vague statements in law like Te Ture Whenua Maori Act and the treaty principles, yet it would then go and stick into employment relations law\u2014which affects even more people\u2014phrases no less, probably more, stupidly vague and deliberately ambiguous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022774ce6f2dca944768f8024f16add478a\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Including treaty clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022572c8a85f6be406ba49e18adc223c191\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I have just been scanning the legislation. I have not come across it, but if the member can tell me where it is I would like to have a look at it. The equivalent of the treaty clauses is the \u201Cgood faith\u201D clauses. They sound as vague and silly as the treaty clauses that the Government has been sprinkling into legislation. As has been mentioned, the Government has decided to introduce what is effectively compulsory unionism, at least as far as the workers who object to unions\u2014because they think they are a waste of money\u2014are concerned. The bargaining fee arrangement means the union can have the best of all possible worlds for a lazy, interfering union official. They can get paid by people who do not want to join the union, and they do not have the bother of those people having votes. They can have this arrangement where they might have only 10 percent of the workforce. They can collect the fees, and they do not have to provide any service. It is a perfect outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EOf course, the Government probably likes that too, because not having to provide the service means there is more surplus left for these people to devote to their political campaigning. It would allow unions, as the Engineers Union did in the last election, to put up billboards that walk carefully around the electoral law restrictions on election spending. They use money supplied by members\u2014many of whom no doubt would find that they absolutely detest the policies of the Government, particularly in relation to its politically correct areas and treaty law. These people, whether or not they wanted to, funded the Labour Party\u2019s political campaign. The bargaining fee arrangement is plainly a thank you and a promise that enables the union movement to fund more contributions to the Labour Party for the next campaign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ENobody else in this discussion has addressed the effect of the amendment to the Human Rights Act. The Human Rights Amendment Bill that came out of the select committee process inserts new section 79A in the Human Rights Act. It provides that employees get a choice. Where they have something they can dress up as a human rights complaint, they get a choice of taking it through employment grievance procedures, or to the Human Rights Review Tribunal or to the Human Rights Commission. As far as I can see, the committee did not think that was a very significant change, but employers ought to think about just what that means. The Human Rights Review Tribunal is the body that decided that one of New Zealand\u2019s most vicious criminals deserved $1,200 for his hurt feelings when the prison service omitted to supply him with a copy of a letter from one of his victims, or a letter from the father of one of his victims, complaining about, or setting out, the damage that criminal had done to his daughter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ETaking a complaint to the Human Rights Review Tribunal will now be a choice\u2014one or the other\u2014for an employee under the Act. The employer has no right to object. The employer cannot insist that it go even to the discredited processes of employment law and to that court, that mock court\u2014the Employment Court\u2014which does not apply law but instead applies the political and ideological preferences of the judges of the day as they allocate what they consider to be the right distribution of rewards for business and for enterprise to the people they consider the subject of unequal bargaining power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ETo give employees the right to elect to go to the Human Rights Review Tribunal illustrates how unrealistic this Government is. The whole Human Rights Act jurisdiction is inflated by a body that is absolutely determined to turn every possible area of conduct that it can reach, into a matter for judges and lawyers to finally decide. It is a body that does not believe there is anywhere that the law should not touch\u2014that there are things that are just matters of good manners, of ethics, of custom, of morality, that the law should avoid. It is a body that does not understand the wisdom in saying that there cannot be a remedy for every wrong; that for many things it is simply spilt milk\u2014get over it, and go and find a better relationship. Instead, that body, assisted by this part of this bill, can now hold out the false promise to employees of a remedy for every grievance. In this case, harassment\u2014sexual harassment and racial harassment are expressly mentioned\u2014but any ground of complaint under the Human Rights Act, whether fanciful or bogus, can be taken through the Human Rights Review Tribunal process. As I mentioned, that is the body that had such deep wisdom that it thought the hurt feelings of a vicious criminal were worth ordering compensation for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe employment relations fiddling that we are seeing is characteristic of a Government comprised of people who have never paid anyone out of their own money. This is a bill that is designed\u2014allegedly by \u201CSwainy and the boys\u201D, although I think it was actually \u201CSwainy\u2019s\u201D predecessor, but he has loyally marketed it\u2014to ensure that the unions got a little closer to what they thought they got 4 years ago when the Employment Relations Bill went through. The Minister now, for example, gets a chance to gazette safety courses without having to put them in the Gazette. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThese bogus safety issues and courses are a monstrous waste of money. They are another part of the victim culture the Government is encouraging throughout New Zealand, where people do not take responsibility for their own actions or for their own conduct. They always are encouraged to feel that someone, somewhere, is always to blame if there is an accident or a problem. Of course, they are a godsend to a union when safety can be used as a trump card in negotiations where nothing else will do. The union can claim that failure to comply with the detailed requirements of safety is enough to bring a shop out, or to bring down an employer who has been a little bit recalcitrant. The principles of good-faith bargaining do not apply and can be set aside, because who will dare to go against the safety god\u2014that trump card that is so often used when people do not want to argue the merits but, instead, want to bring in an argument that is incontrovertible as far as the PC mob goes. This bill is a bad bill and ACT will be voting against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022368dbc77fa84430d956fa5cd8ec9ea6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022368dbc77fa84430d956fa5cd8ec9ea6b\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of this legislation, and in particular to make a point about freeloading. As a unionist working really hard to get a pay increase, nothing used to annoy me more than people, like members opposite, who spend their time deriding unions and running them down, and running down those of us who belonged to unions and worked very hard for a pay increase. Then, as soon as we had got the pay increase, they would have their hands out to get their share of the increase the rest of us had worked hard for. That was entirely unfair and I think this bill addresses that point very well. I totally support this move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9ee8642b90448aa93a443002999e01b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9ee8642b90448aa93a443002999e01b\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is always a pleasure to follow the member for Hamilton East, because she puts so much work into her speeches! She does an enormous amount of work on important issues before the House, and that is reflected in her contribution, which is always incisive and sometimes to the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe employment relations law reform legislation is a disgrace. It is legislation that delivers to the trade union movement all the things that the Labour Party could not deliver during the winter of discontent in the year 2000. At about the same time as Mr Tamihere was receiving his cash payout, the Labour Party was delivering, through the winter of discontent, a bill for the trade unions; and, at about the same time as Mr Tamihere got caught, it followed that up with the sequel to this issue. The Labour Party has delivered to the trade unions all the ways they can get the funding that they need to pump back into the Labour Party campaign. That is what the legislation is all about. It is effectively compulsory unionism. It is a levy. Employees who do not belong to a union have to pay a levy to the union if they want the same pay and conditions as union members, and that levy, of course, is a ticket-clicking exercise for the Labour Party to help fund its campaign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI hope that the trade union movement declares to this House how much money it is putting in the Labour Party coffers, unlike the Waipareira Trust, which put a whole heap of Government money into Mr Tamihere\u2019s campaign that was not declared during the process. I hope that we do not see the same sort of tactics used by the trade union movement with this legislation as we have seen with the Waipareira Trust and Mr Tamihere in relation to Government money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273af01715cbc490e9fff3577ece2692e\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: We will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fb1b1a2b4f24b338c319328f5d1aad0\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The prediction is that we will, and, unfortunately, I am inclined to believe that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe most insidious part of the legislation is the part that says to workers that if they do not join the union, they cannot get the same terms and conditions as staff who belong to the union. I ask the Greens in particular, as they have supported this measure, but Labour members, as well, how they say to the checkout operator in the supermarket who is a solo mum and is working part time\u2014and whose benefit starts to abate if she earns over $80 a week\u2014that unless she joins the union she will be paid a lower hourly rate. How fair is that? Why is she not able to negotiate her own rate? Good God, we trust her to raise her kids on her own and to do a whole lot of other stuff on her own, but we do not trust her to negotiate her wage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e5d7d99e26b47388afcd04bb059be73\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: She can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4730d910d914aa29401edd0512f6f06\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The Greens say that she can. But the employer cannot pay her the same, can they? The Greens will not answer that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab9d95ee621041219c96919bf3d4b5c3\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: If she pays the fee she can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecc9d6cac99148fd93ce8dc53362d6e9\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Mike Ward says that if she pays the fee she can get the same. I ask the Greens whether they stand in the organic line at the supermarket and say to the part-time solo mum on the checkout that she will now be up for a union fee otherwise she will get a lower rate than the person in the next aisle. Do they say that? Because that is the effect of it and they know it. They do not say it because they are not straight up enough to do so. Why do they not say that? Why do they not tell the staff what they already know? I say to this House that I fronted in a supermarket staffroom last week, and the question from the butchery department was: \u201CWhy would we get different rates of pay for doing the same job just because one of us belonged to a union?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c1398fa993246069c3b16f076542314\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: How did you answer that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271760f4614f8444f94c1144388d72539\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: I said: \u201CGo and ask the Government.\u201D It is no good asking the Greens. They do not eat meat. They do not know where the butchery department is. It is just not fair. The good old Labour Party is saying that it trusts a solo mum to raise her kids but no way will it trust her to negotiate a wage. It is saying: \u201CWe do not trust the man in the butchery department to negotiate his own salary and, damn it, if he does, he will be paid a lower rate than someone who is a member of the union. We\u2019re going to write and pass a law of the land that says that if you negotiate your own rate of pay for doing exactly the same job as someone in the union, you are prohibited, by law, from being paid more. The union will put a cap on top of the wage and we will say that you cannot even be paid the same.\u201D Well, how fair is that? It is very fair for the union because it will get a captive group of people who have to belong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f18c0a0e76f4e7c9535d01258f3fe4d\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t have to belong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc93f6a14a0543ca8e32ad5cd5b201bd\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: They do not have to belong if they want a lower rate of pay. That is right, is it not? The thing about this debate is that the good old socialist argument for collectivism is more important than individuals being trusted to do something for themselves. Goddam that we should ever trust people to do something for themselves. This Government hates that. It says that we must not empower people or trust them. It says that we must not encourage them to do something for themselves and that we must make sure that the union, by law, is given the best rate. Why would members opposite not support it the other way? Why would the Greens not vote the other way? Why would they not vote to say that anyone can negotiate anything, but the union must not negotiate the same as an individual and it has to be less? Why do we not vote for that? What is wrong with that? They do not say anything about that. It is OK for the collective to have the advantage, but, my gosh, we must not give an individual an advantage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThis law is crazy. This law will be breached all over the country, and some poor employers will be fined $10,000 for paying their staff the same rate. I know\u2014and other members, if they are honest, know it as well\u2014that employers have said: \u201CIn my workplace everyone will get the same, regardless.\u201D They are going to ignore the law. The Greens have come to Wellington to vote with the Government for a law that will be ignored. Only a few will get picked off by this. Someone who stands up to a bolshie union official will be picked off and fined. At the end of the day, who loses? It is actually the person who is the most vulnerable. It is the young part-timer\u2014or the young and the part-timers. Those people lose because they have to pay a union fee that in many cases is more than any increase they will get. They lose. They have to belong to an organisation they do not believe in. They lose. They have to have money taken from their wages to pay for Labour\u2019s re-election campaign just as money was taken from the Waipareira Trust\u2014from kids\u2019 vaccinations\u2014to pay for John Tamihere\u2019s election campaign. That is where the money came from. It was taken from kids\u2019 vaccinations, from reading programmes, and from welfare programmes\u2014money that was siphoned off for the Labour Party. That is what we are doing here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc2c4b015a86400386ef8f35d106507c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc2c4b015a86400386ef8f35d106507c\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E After that fairly large speech, which continued to talk about vulnerable employees, I want to express to the House why I happen to support this bill and, in particular, support vulnerable employees. It is all very well talking about butcher shops\u2014about going into the back of them and having those conversations. That actually misleads people. But in this Chamber I would like to comment on the fact that we are reintroducing protections for employees most at risk in the sale, transfer, or contracting out of business situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EMembers are aware of the cleaners who work in our hospitals, who work in this building, and whose jobs get taken out from underneath them. They are replaced, their conditions are made worse, and they work for longer hours or do even more work, just because a business has been sold. This bill gives a higher level of protection to those employees who have been the most vulnerable to restructuring situations in the past. Those employees will have the right to transfer to the new employer on their existing terms and conditions of employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003ESo even though we have had those most wonderful speeches from Opposition members going on about the rights of workers, I say that they are the same people who have trampled on cleaners, who have trampled on the most vulnerable workers in this society, and who could not give a hoot as long as they continue to line their pockets. I totally support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022405f4a3281934294903251078b1ba1c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022405f4a3281934294903251078b1ba1c2\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I am absolutely delighted to be able to take a call on this legislation. I want to tease out with this Government what I think is the most central difference between the left and the right in politics. When it comes to labour relations law, the members of the Labour Party, especially those on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014who, I repeat, were all members of trade unions\u2014were actively advocating the fact that workers should have a right to organise. OK, that sounds perfectly sensible. I do not have a dispute with that. If workers want to get together and negotiate collectively, as a group, I do not have a problem with that. But the members then went on to say that the only group that can organise and represent any group of workers in a company is a trade union. So one may have a company with 600 staff, 500 of whom are in the union and 80 of whom are not, and those 80 workers say: \u201CWell, look, rather than doing 80 individual contracts, why don\u2019t we get together and negotiate a collective of our own?\u201D. When one raises that with Labour Party members, the answer is: \u201CNo, that is absolutely outrageous.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EHang on! I thought Labour supported the idea of being able to organise collectively. Oh, yes it does, but the only way people can use a collective organisation for their negotiations is to be a member of the union. So the 80 workers cannot get together collectively and appoint an employment law specialist, or an advocate of some sort, and say: \u201CWe\u2019ve had a little club together and we\u2019d like you to negotiate on our behalf.\u201D No, the Labour Party says that that is wrong, because those employees are not part of the trade union movement. So it has nothing to do with being able to organise collectively, because if it were, Labour members would not mind a group of X number of employees getting together and negotiating their own deal. Instead, they want those employees to be members of the trade union. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ELet us tease that out. Why would Labour members want that? Well, one can see the thinking behind the little deal. My colleague in the front row is doing the twitching of the fingers, and that is what it is about\u2014it is the moolah, the payola. But let me explain even further how that works. The Government is now saying: \u201CWell, all right, you can negotiate collectively if you\u2019re in the union, and get a deal. Those of you who aren\u2019t can\u2019t have the same terms and conditions as those who are.\u201D Now let us imagine the first law case. I want to see a businessman in the dock of the High Court: \u201CThe charge against you, sir, is you treated all your workers the same.\u201D The outrage that the public would feel for some evil employer who said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cc156b433fb43258aae53cb434775f8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Would they agree about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a23046433eb4b3c8a87a7fe70a953a2\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: They will! There will be marching in the streets. These filthy employers\u2014they want to treat their workers the same! That is what the employer will be charged with. The judge will say: \u201CHow do you plead, sir? Is it true that the charge the Department of Labour has brought against you is that you want to treat all your workers the same?\u201D That will be the charge. There might be some other questions such as: \u201CDo you pay your taxes, sir?\u201D. \u201CYes, I do, I pay my taxes.\u201D, the employer will say. \u201CRight, are you a good corporate citizen?\u201D. \u201COh, sir, I am, I am, yes.\u201D, will be the reply. But the judge will say: \u201CRight, but the charge still stands. You tried to pay all your workers the same.\u201D What a crime! Yet that is what this bill will do. But, hang on! There will be another round in order to boost the trade union\u2019s coffers, and that is the bargaining fee. So the Labour Government has decided to do the tricky deal. It will say: \u201CNo, no, it\u2019s probably a bit harsh to say you can\u2019t all share. You can share the same as everybody else and all be on the same, but you will have to pay a bargaining fee.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23b975ee11e4e87b4357c4b2a4ccbdc\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: To the union?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f440d8ab1e84b75973c8baff165853e\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the first point. Who does the bargaining fee go to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c13219659d1481c8d6241a587193300\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I want to pay mine to the Waipareira Trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258df59c1737b42fba976b431f03c9829\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Good on that member! At least he will know where it is going. So the employee will have to pay a bargaining fee. Now, there are just a few questions here. Who do the employees pay that to? Well, they will have to pay it to the trade union. How much will it be? At the select committee we suggested that we should limit the bargaining fee to quite a small percentage of the union membership fee. I do not think I can live with that concept, but I can live with it more comfortably than I can live with the situation as it is now. If members on the other side are saying that the only thing a trade union does in the whole calendar year is negotiate the wage round, then I have to say that that is completely against everything the trade unions say they are there for. They say they are there for welfare, as benevolent societies, supporting education funds for the kids of the workers, and doing stunning stuff all year round. In fact, I think that some of the unions\u2014and someone could help me with this\u2014especially the teacher unions, negotiate once every 3 years, and the contract lasts for 3 years. So they negotiate\u2014and the negotiations are, say, 3 or 4 weeks\u2019 work\u2014and then 3 years of union fees are paid. They are telling people who are not in the union\u2014and who are not enjoying any of the benefits, or any of the so-called wonderful things I hear people such as Andrew Little say are the benefits of being in the union\u2014that they will pay a bargaining fee that will be the exact same amount as the whole union fee. If members of the Labour Party are saying: \u201COh, no, it won\u2019t be that much.\u201D, then why would they not accept amendments that limit the fee to no more than 20 percent or 10 percent of the union fee? Oh no, they will not have that. They have left it at 100 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ELet me make that last point clear. The people in the collective\u2014that is, the union members\u2014pay their union membership dues of, maybe, $600 a year to the union. In return for that\u2014if the rhetoric from the trade unions can be believed\u2014they get stunning services, stunning value, and unbelievable quality, and one of the small things that the union does along the way is negotiate terms and conditions. Now the Government has come along with a grubby little thing called the bargaining fee, and if one is not in the union, and one\u2019s boss says: \u201CAll I want is to do the same for you as I\u2019ve done for the rest of the workers in the collective.\u201D, he will be able to as long as he says \u201CAnd, by the way, that\u2019s 600 bucks a year bargaining fee.\u201D The workers will say: \u201CBut hang on! This took us 2 minutes.\u201D, and the employer will say: \u201CI know, but the Labour Government has put in place a law that says I now have to extract from you a bargaining fee. It will be 100 percent of what the union dues are, even though those union members supposedly get fantastic other products and services.\u201D The poor old workers will say: \u201CWhat is this but compulsory unionism by any other name?\u201D. And that is exactly what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIt was clear to see what the Government\u2019s agenda was by the presence in the precincts of this Chamber, during the Committee stage, of one Ross Wilson. I do not know whether he is a relation of Margaret Wilson but I am really getting worried. [Interruption] He could be. He could be a very close relative of Margaret Wilson. He is the head of the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions. [Interruption] No, Ross Wilson is not better than this. The member cannot say he is better than this. Ross Wilson is the head of the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, and one would expect him to have no say in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226210d2dd43cc46c9b3fa1f96a6709157\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is there an office out there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290c70bf12ebf4cff9057458126b16594\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am told that a room has been set up with Ross Wilson\u2019s name on it, and the phone extension goes through to him, because he had to be right here within the precincts of this House, advising the Minister. In any other political regime that would be seen as direct interference in the political process. If the Business Roundtable had an office in the lobby and was advising a Tory Government, we could imagine the meltdown and the marching in the street. But here was the head of the organisation that will benefit most out of it, and he was not in the gallery\u2014he was here in the precincts of the Chamber, where members are supposed to be, and he was being told he was here only to give the Minister advice. Well, if people believe that, they believe in the tooth fairy and they believe that the Waipareira Trust does things transparently\u2014neither of which I believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI have to say that this legislation represents all that the left of the Labour Party has come to believe in. They do not trust employers. They do not trust workers to negotiate their own conditions. They put nebulous definitions like \u201Cgood faith\u201D into the legislation, and\u2014listen to this\u2014even the Employment Court judges, whom I do not have a great deal of time for, came before the select committee and said that they do not know what \u201Cgood faith\u201D means. If they do not know, how are we supposed to? It is an outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002280b3a1c0731a47729c94834f6c980e73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280b3a1c0731a47729c94834f6c980e73\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E After that speech made by Maurice Williamson I am flabbergasted, and I cannot understand why he languishes amongst the most lowly back-benchers of the National Party. That was the most talented, able speech the National Party has ever put up\u2014a classic Tory anti-union line. He compares amazingly with the lacklustre, limpish, wimpish front bench National has. Maurice Williamson brought out all the old anti-union bogies possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIt was the classic right-wing line, which is to attack the union and say the union is not the appropriate thing, and then to put up another organisation led by a bargaining agent. Those are known all over the world, I say to Mr Williamson, as stooge unions, yellow unions, and bogus unions, and it is a classic right-wing tactic to attack workers\u2019 conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIt came from a member of the National Government that, when it came into power in 1990, wrote all over the country promising workers it would not attack penalty rates. Let us listen to this. They promised they would not attack penalty rates, and within months the Employment Contracts Act had been brought in and penalty rates were consigned to the dustbin of history. That is what the National Party did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIts sole object was to do the bidding of the bosses and the Business Roundtable, and to smash workers\u2019 wage rates. Through the 1990s this country\u2019s workers and their families descended into poverty. Not only did the National Party cut penalty rates and wages but it also cut benefits. Let us understand who Maurice Williamson is speaking for. He speaks for the Business Roundtable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis Government looks after ordinary New Zealanders. We are raising wages and improving the conditions of workers, and doing that at a time when unemployment is falling. So there will be better working conditions and more jobs\u2014something the National Party could never ever provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis is fantastic legislation. I want to say that the sooner the National Party promotes Maurice Williamson, the better off it will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b071d0ef97d04b949fa1ebf3d8714055\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Employment Relations Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fabe880fb3ad46aa90a727e2a4f609b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Health and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cf85f3cfbec14a6d8474f504d8996ed7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Human Rights Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d2edc58a1614d0cbbc5a45049182541\u0022\u003EParental Leave and Employment Protectionmendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022254b28894a124fcb86c719e8efae25a6\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00222db541eee6244d69a23bc5a8b3d7d0cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222db541eee6244d69a23bc5a8b3d7d0cb\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill be now read a second time. The bill furthers a number of the Government\u2019s objectives to support working parents on the birth or adoption of a child. This includes ensuring that the paid parental leave scheme is accessible to a wider number of employees, encouraging female workforce attachment, supporting families with leave and job protection, supporting the health and well-being of new mothers and babies, and improving New Zealand\u2019s compliance with international human rights instruments that provide rights to paid maternity leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill contains three key changes to the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act. First, it provides new entitlements for employees not currently eligible for parental leave entitlements under the principal Act on the birth or adoption of a child. Currently, an employee must be employed with the same employer for at least an average of 10 hours a week during the immediately preceding 12 months to be entitled to maternity leave and parental leave. The bill provides that employees with between 6 months\u2019 and 12 months\u2019 service with the same employer, for an average of 10 hours per week, will be eligible for paid parental leave for 13 weeks from 1 December this year, to be extended to 14 weeks from 1 December next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E Secondly, the bill extends the duration of parental leave payments. Currently, they are for 12 weeks, and, as I mentioned, from 1 December this year will go to 13 weeks, with an additional week from 1 December next year. Thirdly, the bill provides a new entitlement to 1 week\u2019s unpaid paternity leave for partners who have between 6 and 12 months\u2019 service with the same employer. The bill also provides that employees may transfer their entitlement to parental leave payments to their spouse or partner. If that happens, the bill provides that the spouse has extended partner\u2019s paternity leave for the period of payment in those circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill returns to the House with a relatively small number of technical amendments that relate to the commencement of the legislation. Amendments to the commencement provide that the Act comes into force on its assent in relation to a small range of circumstances. This relates to a small group of employees who may have an expected date of delivery on or after 1 December 2004, but their child is born early and therefore need to be able to access their entitlement to leave early, or need to access associated entitlements such as 10 days\u2019 special leave for reasons associated with pregnancy, or need to apply for parental leave payments before 1 December 2004. Similar issues have also arisen in relation to the commencement of the extension to the duration of paid parental leave from 13 to 14 weeks from 1 December next year, and have been addressed by technical amendments to that part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EMost submissions generally supported the bill, suggesting that the move to include a wider range of employees is positive. However, a number suggested in particular that coverage should be extended to include self-employed women, and also those in part-time work of fewer than 10 hours a week, or short-term workers who have fixed-term jobs or are not in continuous employment for 6 months or more before giving birth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EOur Government introduced paid parental leave in 2002, and thousands of working families have benefited with leave and a period of payment on the birth or adoption of a child. We are conscious, though, that some people, such as self-employed people, still miss out under this bill. The feasibility of extending paid parental leave to the self-employed is currently being considered. I consider this a high priority, and I am committed to progressing this issue in the future as far as practicable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI have already released a Supplementary Order Paper setting out further amendments that I intend to move at the Committee stage. This includes an amendment to recognise that in order to complete their training, junior doctors are required to work for more than one district health board. The amendment provides that junior doctors\u2019 employment on rotation with more than one district health board be considered continuous employment for the purposes of parental leave entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThis bill supports employers by providing them with access to support to keep a staff member when they have a baby. The bill strikes an appropriate balance by enhancing this opportunity for employers through the provision of taxpayer-funded payments and providing leave to those with between 6 and 12 months\u2019 employment. The changes contained in this bill will be reviewed 1 year from implementation. In the meantime, I welcome the select committee\u2019s report and thank all of those who took the time to make submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022312c3137eb0f4c6ab3ef800204b5945a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022312c3137eb0f4c6ab3ef800204b5945a\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from the Minister who is promoting this bill, I think that it is good for members in the House to think about the people who do not benefit from this bill\u2014those who are ineligible for these taxpayer-funded benefits. They are all self-employed women. I know that it is very difficult for Labour Party members to understand that. They do not know much about self-employed women and they do not know an awful lot about mothers. Having myself been a self-employed woman who is also a mother, I can tell members that it is a very, very tough job as a self-employed woman running a business, employing staff, to have to go without any assistance while one\u2019s staff gets the benefit of that particular assistance. That is the first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe second point is women in part-time employment who are job sharing. They will miss out. Women in casual employment, part-time or full-time, will miss out. Women who cannot find formal employment, or choose not to engage in formal employment, will miss out, including women who choose to stop work to \u201Chave a family\u201D. These are the women who are just going about being good mums. These mums and dads will miss out, but they will have the privilege of paying for someone else to have his or her particular choice to continue to work in the paid workforce. That would be fine if this bill were not so discriminatory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMore women will miss out. Women who, for many reasons, have had a new employer within a very short period of time will miss out, as will women who cannot have children, or choose not to. Those women and men who face infertility, who cannot have children, get to know that they will pay for the privilege of other people\u2014they get to pay for that\u2014and they do not get anything off their taxes for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThen there are the spouses of women who fit the above criteria, and all the spouses who do not fit the above criteria. All those spouses, all those people, miss out. The National Party is very, very pro people working, very pro women working, very pro men working, and very pro fairness. We will not support this bill because it is discriminatory against self-employed women, and all those other women and their spouses who I have just mentioned. This bill is discriminatory. [Interruption] All those women\u2014and I suggest that that member consider that he has not lived enough life to know what he is talking about in this area\u2014have the joy of paying extra taxes so that they can have the joy of having to pay for locums and replacements to come into their business to cover for them, and they get to pay the extra taxes so that their staff do not have to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis would be a great provision if it included all women in this position, but it does not. It is very, very discriminatory. It is completely pro union. It is against the self-employed person. Yet so many women in New Zealand are self-employed\u2014particularly in the rural sector. About 75 percent of people working in the rural sector are self-employed. For those of us who know something about farming and farming life, and having been brought up on one\u2014and I let Mr Hughes know that\u2014and having milked cows at the age of 9, I can tell that this particular situation will not do one thing for the farming women of New Zealand. It will not do one thing. All it will do is one bad thing, and that is to get those women and their spouses to pay extra taxes but they do not get the benefit of it, and that is so unfair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ELet us look at some of the comments that New Zealand farmers have made about this particular bill. They are direct quotes. \u201CNew Zealand couples should think carefully about the commitment required to raise a family. I do not think that paid parental leave encourages careful planning and commitment. Our society is looking more and more towards Government to solve every problem that life presents\u2014a path that is unsustainable for the taxpayer.\u201D That is a really, really good and independent attitude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E Here is another one: \u201CI do not imagine that rural wives who work unpaid on the land will find it easy to access the benefits proposed.\u201D Well, that person was right. Here is another one: \u201CWe want all taxation to be lowered and let people look after themselves, like we do.\u201D That is what the farmers are saying. Here is another one: \u201CJust another way of taxing businesses.\u201D Farmers have a way of putting it, do they not? They really do. They do not muck around, they do not use all the flowery language. They just say it as it is. Here is another one: \u201CPaid parental leave is a discriminatory provision that needs revising.\u201D That is a very fair comment. Here is another one: \u201CThe paid parental leave payment in its current form is discriminatory against all mothers who choose to stay in the home to care for their families\u201D\u2014is that not right, I ask United Future\u2014\u201Cespecially farming wives who are often needed to help in the smooth running of the farm.\u201D This could apply to all wives who are part of the self-employed business. They are being doubly penalised\u2014in that by staying in the home they are already forgoing a wage packet, and now, because they are not part of the regular workforce, they are not eligible for the paid parental leave payment either. This bill is discriminatory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat did the Social Services Committee in its majority verdict say on this bill? Of course, the National Party did not agree with this majority report. The only discrimination that this Labour-Green select committee wanted to be concerned about was possible discrimination, and I quote from page 8 of the commentary on the bill: \u201CAnother submission raised a wider issue relating to eligibility for parental leave entitlements and sought clarification on whether the legislation could be interpreted to exclude lesbian, gay or transgender workers.\u201D That is fair comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt then went on to state that because gay, lesbian, and transgender couples cannot, at the moment, adopt a child under the Adoption Act this would be something that might be discriminatory against those people. Well, it might and that is certainly an issue. But what about the greater discrimination against those mothers who seek to stay at home to look after their children when they are young? I say good on those mothers. It is certainly something that a lot of us did not really want to have to do, because it is a very tough, tough job. Being a mother is the toughest job in the world. It is certainly the one that we are not given any assistance on, except through what we have learnt from our own parents. This is an aspect where that discrimination is being carried forward in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhy is it that we cannot care about self-employed women? Because certainly the Government\u2019s response has always been: \u201COh, well, there might be some problems with their taxes, or something. They don\u2019t know how much income they earn.\u201D But my goodness, that same Minister who is promoting this bill knows how to get them for their accident compensation payments. This Government knows how much those people earn, for income tax purposes. It is income tax, because these people actually work for their money. They do not get golden handshakes from the Waipareira Trust. They do not go around signing forms illegally. They do not do those sorts of things. They are just decent, hard-working New Zealanders. They are getting the privilege of paying for this sort of discriminatory legislation, which shows that this Government does not care a scrap about these decent, ordinary New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002281d5ab49664a4001a1413333b2dfd0ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281d5ab49664a4001a1413333b2dfd0ee\u0022\u003ELIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E There is a word that describes that contribution but I understand it is not considered to be parliamentary language. When one looks up the dictionary, the word starts with the letter \u201Ch\u201D. I think the members on this side of the House know precisely what I am talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe National Party opposes paid parental leave. It voted against paid parental leave. At that time the Ayes were 66, the Noes 52. New Zealand National had 39 members. That must have been before the 2002 election, because National does not have 39 members now, and it will not have 39 members after the next election, if we listen to the contribution of Judith Collins. We heard that member say that the National Party opposes this bill because it is discriminatory against the self-employed. On that basis National would repeal paid parental leave for everyone, so that everyone misses out. Well, I want to mention that \u201Ch\u201D word again, in the context of something that might be considered to be a bit rich. Katherine Rich was perfectly happy to take her full parliamentary salary when both her children were born, yet the National Party has the gall to stand here in this House and suggest that this Government does not have at heart the interests of women in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want to quote from the report of the Social Services Committee. The Minister\u2019s comments are actually reported in the select committee report back. This is what the Minister who is responsible for this bill stated: \u201CAs part of this process officials are considering the overall framework, design, eligibility criteria and payment structure that could apply to self-employed people. Policy development relating to the self-employed is a very high priority for me and I am committed to progressing this issue further in the near future to include self-employed parents as far as practicable.\u201D I will be looking to the other side of the House for support when the Minister is able to introduce the legislation, but I know that we will just see a continuation of the absolute hypocrisy we have already seen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994ef0584b5b42f4aeea9794c323f56c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the member referring to in that last sentence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269217abe3f1b486b88c2f3deb0ef91d0\u0022\u003ELIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: To the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c8652db34e4b468e17763479697127\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d4c4b756034422ba6ceedb297e7369\u0022\u003ELIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022 data-id=\u002250c4a1676bce443cb542ea12eae7b404\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250c4a1676bce443cb542ea12eae7b404\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill. There is a Supplementary Order Paper in my name, and it amends clauses 8, 9, 11, and 12. The bill implements Government policy to extend the duration of paid parental leave from 12 to 13 weeks at the end of 2004, and to extend it to 14 weeks in 2005, so it is done progressively over a 2-year period. It provides new maternity leave, partner\u2019s/paternity leave, and paid leave entitlements to employees who have worked for the same employer for between 6 and 12 months. These employees are not currently covered by the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act. Further, the bill clarifies that for the purposes of determining entitlements under the Act, employment of a teacher at more than one State or integrated school is to be treated as one employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EMy Supplementary Order Paper amends the Parental Leave and Employment Amendment Bill. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that the provision of paid parental leave is extended to those who are self-employed. I stand to be corrected. I think I heard the Minister mention that the Government would certainly look at the self-employed being able to receive this benefit. New Zealand First, as stated earlier, supports the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill with our amendments, which would assist the self-employed, especially those who are parents and those who are in the position of having additions to their family through pregnancy or adoption, and also taking into consideration that personnel involved are positive contributors in the way of revenue increase and employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003ESo we are looking at a sector of the community who work very, very hard and contribute to the tax and employment position of our nation. The question that may be asked is this: would this be a fair and positive contribution to society and families? The situation today in many cases is that both parents are employed or self-employed. How can this Government play its part in giving assistance to those families who are in the process of adoption or natural birth? Social policies in New Zealand afford to many individuals benefits that in many cases those individuals have succumbed to or are taking advantage of. New Zealand First is taking into account the hard-working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EThere are self-employed people across the board. They are hard-working people, who pay their taxes. In many cases they can afford accident compensation levies, and in many cases they cannot afford them. But these are people who, in the view of New Zealand First, should be entitled to the same parental leave as the employee. In the case of self-employed people, who will run the business? Who will take care of and pay those whom they might have to employ in the case of maternity leave? Where will that come from? I understand that the Government has made provision to support people in those cases. New Zealand First also takes care, and is observant of the needs, of people who are in the position of being self-employed. When we take their contribution to our nation into consideration, we see that it is astronomical. They provide an economy that many, many people would look twice at it. They provide that while taking the risks of being self-employed and, in many cases, they have to supply accident compensation for those who may be injured. That has happened on a farm that we know the history of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003ESelf-employed people include farmers. They also include farmers\u2019 wives, because they too contribute to the agricultural sector of this nation. Why should they not be offered the opportunity of being paid parental leave? Where does the major export in our economy come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989a77ee0ebe492ea7615b00a39b6917\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: From farming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b346f0f41cb44d51847f0ef172b4b619\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON\u003C/span\u003E: It comes from farming. So why should self-employed people not be entitled to that same parental leave? I am sure farmers would enjoy and appreciate that very much. There are those who run their own small businesses. They have decided to do that because it is what they want to do and it is an extension of their talent and potential, so why should they not contribute, and in doing that, why should they not be offered the same blessing of being supported in the time when there is an increase in the family? So New Zealand First supports this bill on the condition that we look very, very seriously at the self-employed and the position and part they play in our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u00226fa1fb47d4b94c81b6cf0d3b1e74715c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fa1fb47d4b94c81b6cf0d3b1e74715c\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future, which will also support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8bd6b3702c048dca7e2d1d3046de77f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Family-friendly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218b2e83ee303402d94385fc808e2377d\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; we are the family-friendly party. But I must agree with Judith Collins. Motherhood is the toughest job in the world, and I cannot speak from experience, sad to say. I can speak from a father\u2019s perspective, but it is interesting. Mothers must do a fantastic job, because I have read many a survey on prisons and there are very, very few male prisoners\u2014in fact, one could count them on one hand\u2014who have a harsh word to say about their mothers. That just shows the benefit of motherhood. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EUnited Future will take the Government at its word that it is working towards provisions for the self-employed. If it is said in the House, it cannot be disputed. We welcome that. Of course, United Future has a very simple answer to that problem. That is why we are great believers in income splitting. I think we are starting to return to seeing the benefit of both motherhood and fatherhood. Goodness knows, we also need in this nation to understand the ability and the importance of fathers, because\u2014far more than we should ever be, sadly\u2014we are a nation of fatherless children. If we can come to the fact of income splitting, the family will get extra income regardless of whether it is the father or the mother who chooses to stay at home to bring up the children, because they will have the benefits of income splitting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2ca421ef47e4e289205c0686f6f15e7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa920c9e69554a25b2401a0413ac0fbc\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I said United Future has been promoting income splitting, I say to Simon Power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EComing back to the business of the self-employed, unfortunately a child does not have the right to choose the occupation of its parents. Therefore, if a child is unfortunate enough to be born to a mother who happens to be self-employed, that poor child does not get the same care and attention, over those vital weeks, as does the child whose mother is in employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022639122e01e3240ab983462f325e212de\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the Family Commission doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e4cfecab6b485a969adef0e619dce9\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question, I say to Mr Power. I will ask the commission members the next time I see them, and I will get back to the member as soon as I can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe first of the two things the bill shows up is that the Government still does not fully understand, as I just mentioned, the position of mothers who have chosen to be self-employed, and the value of motherhood as a career. Many women today feel they do not get personal self-worth or self-esteem unless they have proven themselves in a secular, employed job. But I say \u201CWell done\u201D to mothers out there who have never been in the workforce, who have laboured diligently in their homes, and who have poured themselves out into their children. They have chosen a tremendous occupation. The mere fact that they do not get paid for it is secondary to the great job they do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EIf we in this place started to recognise again the value of parenthood, which, of course, is at the core of all that United Future believes in, and started to promote motherhood and fatherhood as occupations\u2014if we want to use that word\u2014well worthy of pursuit, members would find that this nation would turn round in a lot of areas, including crime, burglaries, and all those things, far quicker than anything else we could do. We need to start to promote parenting again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EBut, as I say, this legislation is heading in the right direction, and we welcome the fact that mothers will be able to spend time in those important first few months when their baby comes home. We have seen figures indicating it has helped with mothers who choose to breastfeed in those important few months, and that is well worthy of support. United Future supports this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u0022676e3df75047467bbc120f7295037438\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022676e3df75047467bbc120f7295037438\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak on the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill. I begin by acknowledging the important role women have in New Zealand when they decide it is time to have a family. Every mother will be able to testify to the fact that bringing up children is not an easy task and to the consequences of having a child stay with her for the rest of her life. Children do not go away. So we are talking about something that is very important to New Zealand\u2014the whole business of raising our next generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EBut the ACT party opposes this legislation. The key reason is that it is just another example of Labour progressing its socialist agenda. Here we see, in a very clear way, that the Government plans to try to make more and more New Zealanders dependent on the State. In this particular instance, with this bill, it is also taking steps to penalise small business. I will come back to that. If this Government really wanted to help new parents, then the best thing it could do would be to lower taxes to give new parents more disposable income. If parents had more disposable income, they could choose whether mum or dad would stay at home and raise the child or that two incomes were needed to keep their family ticking over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E The reality is that in New Zealand today, in spite of the wonderfully booming economy we appear to have, working families are probably struggling harder than in the past. The benefits of this booming economy are not flowing through to working families. Part of the reason is that with all the regulations and compliance costs that Labour has imposed out there, a lot of the extra productivity generated is not flowing through in increased profitability, and therefore in wage growth, in the way we would hope, and it is not flowing through to give people a rise in their standard of living, which would enable them to choose to stay at home. If the Government really wanted to help young families get ahead, why does it not lower taxes? For goodness\u2019 sake, we have a $6 billion surplus! All working families could benefit from that, if this Government wanted them to. Instead, it chooses to increase the dependency of New Zealand families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI would like to quote from the Federated Farmers\u2019 submission to the select committee. Federated Farmers, which obviously represents rural New Zealand to a large extent, believes that the best long-term solution lies with empowering individuals and families to plan and prepare for the future themselves. Increasing the disposable income of working families by lowering taxes is a key mechanism available to Government to achieve that objective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219b7201b12cb4d00b2a6cb372dd70e5b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: 1 percent!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c259cd9bc1c49dc85f74621891863f9\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hughes sits there muttering and mumbling, but it would be very interesting for Opposition members if he, as junior whip and on behalf of his Government, could take a call and explain why his Government, which is overtaxing New Zealand workers to the level of $6 billion to 7 billion a year, will not even consider decreasing the tax burden, when he and every Government member knows that New Zealand is one of the most overtaxed countries in the Western World. I would really enjoy hearing a member of that Government tell families who are planning to have children why this Government will not decrease the tax burden on families so that mothers can choose to stay at home and raise their families instead of having to go out to work. That is the real question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThis bill is simply hiding the fact that this Government does not care about giving families the choices that should rightfully be theirs. Instead, we have here a scheme that essentially provides welfare benefits to families, but it penalises employers in the process. That is the problem. We have already heard in this debate how the bill does not even look after women in the workforce equally. It discriminates against self-employed women, women who are in part-time or job-sharing employment, and women who are in casual employment. Those groups of women make up a substantial part of the workforce, but Labour has simply turned its back on them. We have heard members of the Government say that they will fix it. Why on earth have they not fixed it in this bill? The only reason is that the Government has not had the political will to do so. It does not care about those groups of women, and that is a disgrace. I do not support the bill, but in particular I do not support the Government discriminating against groups of women who for some reason it has decided are not on its side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EA very important reason not to support this bill, though, is the fact that it increases compliance costs on small businesses. I refer to the submission of Business New Zealand, and the explanatory note of the bill when it first came out, which stated: \u201CThe proposals do not impose any material increment in compliance cost to business.\u201D That tells me that there must be almost nobody in the Labour Government who has actually hired people, because if any of them had any experience of being an employer, he or she would know that women deciding to take paid parental leave after having their babies, or the 52 weeks\u2019 leave available to them, creates mayhem in a small business. The situation arises where one of an employer\u2019s extremely valuable employees decides to take leave, but the employer does not know whether that leave is for just over 3 months or for a year. The difference between trying to get somebody to fill in for 3 months or to fill in for a year is huge, as any member of the House would testify. Even members who have not employed anybody will know there is a big difference between those two situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204edade695f34ff694c283ae62a184af\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That happens now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022212de14a80054987bd16341f6f82789d\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Hughes to imagine today, right now, up and down New Zealand, that businesses cannot hire staff. There are no workers\u2014no skilled workers, no unskilled workers\u2014largely because of the policies of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThis Government has not managed the workforce properly. It panicked on its immigration rules, and the result is that it has halved immigration into New Zealand. It has failed to deal with many of the worker groups that could give this Government solutions to its problems. It has failed to listen. So we have a situation where the small employer is faced with hiring somebody part-time for 3 months\u2014in which case the employer can go to a temp agency, knowing that one has to pay a premium for somebody to come in\u2014or hiring somebody for a year, in which case he or she cannot afford to go the temp agency, because it is too expensive. But the employer is not told until after 14 weeks that the employee will not be coming back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThis bill has put a huge burden of compliance cost on small business. It has made it so that many small businesses today do not want to hire women of childbearing age. That is called \u201Cunintended consequence\u201D, which this Government is great at creating. So, in its own way, it ends up discriminating against every woman of childbearing age. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022871e3bf984554f77ae58d7f035dc0579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022871e3bf984554f77ae58d7f035dc0579\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Unlike the previous speaker from ACT, the Green Party is pleased to support this bill amending the Government\u2019s paid parental leave scheme established in 2002\u2014and as for creeping socialism, I do not think that this legislation really counts. While we would have liked it to go a lot further, it is great that paid parental leave will be extended from 12 weeks to 14 weeks over the next 2 years, and that paternity and parental leave will now apply to people who have worked for the same employer for between 6 and 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI do, however, continue to have some slight concern about the position, for example, of medical staff who move between employment with different district health boards and who do not appear to be covered by this bill. I will be consulting others to see whether anything might be done about that, especially given that the bill specifically covers teachers who move between schools. It seems to me to be a very anomalous situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party would also have liked to see a further extension to paid parental leave for at least some self-employed parents, and that was a point of view supported by a number of submitters, both to this bill and to the original bill a few years back. The Department of Labour notes in its evaluation of the scheme in 2003 that one of the most frequently mentioned suggestions to improve this scheme was in the area of extending it to the self-employed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIt was heartening, therefore, to hear advice from the Minister during the select committee process that officials are currently considering the overall framework, design, eligibility criteria, and payment structure that could apply to self-employed people, and is actually committed to progressing that as a matter of priority. The Green Party will be doing its best to hold the Minister and the Government to that commitment, as we know there are many self-employed people in both the rural and urban communities of our country who cannot understand why they have so far been denied access to this scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhat I personally find hardest to understand is why it has been possible for some years now to devise systems to apply the accident compensation system to the self-employed\u2014when that situation is incredibly arcane and difficult to implement, and where there is no employer-employee relationship, either\u2014whereas with paid parental leave it appears to have been, for some reason, far more difficult. I trust that in the light of the Minister\u2019s commitments, which are recorded in the commentary on the bill, we will see real progress on that within the next 12 months and that paid parental leave will be extended to at least some self-employed people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOther issues remain too, of course, including the problem of the minimum weekly hours threshold and the fact that the level of payments still falls well short of the standards set by ILO Convention 183, which states that payments should be set at a level that ensures the woman can maintain herself and her child in proper conditions of health and with a suitable standard of living. Women are still coming up to me, as I am sure they do to many other MPs, asking how on earth they can be expected to support themselves and their child or children at the paid parental leave rate. They have often taken a cut in salary, or are on very low wages anyway, and it is especially difficult to survive when they have no partner to support them. The domestic purposes benefit becomes their only option unless they come from a remarkably well-off background, and at times people are forced back into the workforce before the 12 or 14 weeks are up, which is a real pity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAnother matter that some submitters raised during our consideration of this bill was the question of breastfeeding in the workplace. To me it seems logical that when one is considering paid parental leave, one should also be looking at what happens when a new mother goes back to work after 12, 13, or 14 weeks. If we are serious about supporting the health and well-being of mothers and babies, and serious about work-life balance, we should be doing everything we can to foster a culture\u2014particularly among larger employers\u2014that encourages and enables mothers to breastfeed at work within a secure, safe, and comfortable environment. Although we were advised by the Government that, unfortunately, taking action on that area was not within the scope of the bill, I hope that the Government will be looking at what more it can do in this area in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I would like to reiterate the Green Party\u2019s support for any measure that extends paid parental leave, and for the Government\u2019s willingness to engage in ongoing evaluation and improvements to the scheme. I look forward to the bill becoming law in the near future and the extension of its provisions to further groups of workers as soon as practicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00223209976c5bfc40b9a87ae6a3d0fba3ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223209976c5bfc40b9a87ae6a3d0fba3ae\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise and make a contribution on the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill. To start with I will make some comments on some of the things that other members have said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWe support the exact same sentiments of the ACT member who suggested that the Government give tax breaks and return taxes to families. But it is like whistling in the wind, because we are talking about a socialist Government that wants to hoard the money of taxpayers as it does not trust ordinary New Zealanders to make proper choices. That is part of Labour\u2019s philosophy. We can stand over here and wish that the Government would do the right thing\u2014and it is proper to raise the question\u2014but in the end we know that it will not. It does not fit with its philosophy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI really am baffled by the United Future member\u2019s contribution. United Future is supporting this bill, but most of the member\u2019s contribution tonight was about how we need to value parenthood, value fatherhood, and value motherhood. I do not think there is any member in this House who would not agree with that; I certainly agree with it. But if those are proper principles, if those are underlying philosophies that we should all adhere to, this bill does not do that. I do not understand why United Future would support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E My colleague Simon Power raised the issue of what the Families Commission is doing about these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1784e4cbdad426dbcd7540a3f814d98\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve got to report it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed639ee28cf1445dabe0a3a13a40be44\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: It will report. Report what? Gosh, that will be great, because what has the Families Commission done so far? I suppose it has done research\u2014who knows? Millions of dollars have gone into it, and, so many months on, those member can only stand and whittle on about our supporting motherhood, etc., and say we should vote for this bill. Voting for this bill is not a vote for motherhood, or parenthood, or fatherhood\u2014it is not. If it was, the bill would be fair. It would not be discriminatory. It would not make some in the community pay for the benefit of others. I suggest to that member that rather than support the bill, he should get on and get the Families Commission into gear\u2014whoever those people are and whatever they are doing. If there are issues around parenthood, motherhood, fatherhood, and apple pie, the commission should get cracking on them. That commission is United Future\u2019s baby. United Future is responsible for that Families Commission. We have not seen any results yet. It might have been that party\u2019s pay-off, but taxpayers are entitled to see why their money was spent in that direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI say to Lianne Dalziel that it is all very well her bringing my colleague and associate Katherine Rich into the debate, but really that is no excuse for what is going on in this bill\u2014no excuse whatsoever. If paid parental leave is a proper thing to do, then we should do it for everybody. It is all very well to stand there and read what the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF), Ruth Dyson, has said, and to state that she will do this, that, and every other thing\u2014but when? When will that be done? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022869767af60a24e37b18db5f178514783\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ab4fb7412df446f8ef365606a35850c\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Never mind whether we will support it. The ex-Minister is standing there saying that Labour will do this stuff, and we are still waiting. Until it is done, our assertions of discriminatory and unfair legislation absolutely stand to be counted, and are correct. The Federated Farmers submission says it all, I think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227716763cabda4813adec16ac903da170\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: They are outstanding people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7a74fa2dd448a0aed26d446fd30e95\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: They are outstanding people. My colleague Brian Connell should know. A number of my colleagues on this side of the House know that to be true, including David Carter, who was here earlier. Farmers and farmers\u2019 wives are paying for this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c75e4f3fcf4c188b3f29030c9635c5\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the taxpayers were paying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0eecd5ec3b94a92b4f6eb47f0f75a21\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Well, who are farmers? Who the hang does the member think they are? Are they taxpayers or not? Farmers are huge taxpayers. The rural sector is a big contributor to taxes. But does it get anything out of this? No, it does not. There are basically three glaring anomalies here: self-employed women, whose taxes are paying for this; the rural sector, whose taxes are paying for this\u2014farmers and farming families, the backbone of the country\u2014and those in casual labour, who are paying for this, too. There is a punishment here. The Government likes to laud itself for what it is doing for some in the community, but, in fact, by doing something for some it is punishing others. What sort of legislation is that? The people who are paying for this are entitled to have the support that those others are getting, because they are family-oriented, too. They are looking after their families as much as anybody else is. Why should some in the population be disadvantaged? As I say, this legislation does not have any integrity\u2014none whatsoever. Some in the community are disadvantaged. [Interruption] Who is \u201Cshe\u201D? I have a name, thank you very much. This bill is typical of Labour: it loves to be generous with other people\u2019s money, including my taxes. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227824004a88b04a7b84d2e47129d5bf4c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order, Miss Dalziel, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022828f79f3a701440f96a95ae413b2b0e6\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is OK; if it makes the member Lianne Dalziel happy to be shouting across the House, then that is fine. But she has given her contribution, and I am happy to have a little peace and quiet to make mine, because I think my contribution is very valuable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the House oppose this legislation for those very reasons. I just do not see how this Government can justify something that it places a lot of store in\u2014the principle of paid parental leave\u2014yet leave out a large part of the population. There is nothing equitable about that. There is nothing fair about that. It is totally discriminatory. If the Minister has intentions of doing something about the rest of the working population\u2014mothers, fathers\u2014I ask her when she will do it. We are waiting for it. The Government has been dealing with this paid parental leave stuff since it got into power\u20145 long years. If it is worth doing, then it is worth doing fairly, and it is worth doing it for everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EUnited Future members, the Government\u2019s lapdog helpers, see a lot of faults in this legislation. They have got their Families Commission, which costs all of us money\u2014my taxes as well. I do not know what the Families Commission has done. Those members talk about motherhood, fatherhood, and parenthood; well, the commission should get on and do something about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EMost of all, though, I think it is absolutely scandalous that this Government hoards taxpayers\u2019 money just so that, coming towards the election next year\u2014maybe at the end of this year, if there is an early election, or sometime next year\u2014it can dish more of it out, and make more New Zealanders dependent on the Government. The Government is buying votes for the election; that is how it gets its voters. It chooses the sections of the community that are more minded to vote for it and gives out money to them. That is why self-employed women are missing out. They are too individual, and they think for themselves\u2014well, no one is going to help them. But their taxes are paying for this provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe National Party opposes this legislation. It is unfair and it is discriminatory. If there was any principle in it, the Government would make sure that it went right across the board, and would not pick just those whom it wants to vote for it next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00227fcdc19303e24dbb8642a2046eefd6aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fcdc19303e24dbb8642a2046eefd6aa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd55becf6c3a43d6ad97397a6c0ac55e\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Where is the substance in that comment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00224b31edcd6719411284629e7913cc8658\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b31edcd6719411284629e7913cc8658\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is wishful thinking by the honourable member if he thinks he will get some substance out of that Minister. Tonight the Minister opened the debate on this bill with the opening sentence that the bill makes things easier, or better, for working parents. She meant some working parents; she did not mean all working parents. I am sorry to see that United Future has not taken that on board, and I am saddened to see that the Greens talk of doing something for the self-employed, but then say it is OK if it is years away. I say to members that help is on its way. My colleague has put a great deal of effort into introducing a Supplementary Order Paper that will change this bill to incorporate, and to embrace, the self-employed. The amendment will make the bill that much fairer and that much more genuine. The former Minister is smiling. She knows that this is a discriminatory bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223df2d4cac96842e4859230ce9b6882d5\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It all applies to the self-employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222032a6730937403ebe9a435bc5a193e0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is all very well reading out these nice woolly, fluffy comments that the Minister has made, but the member knows that it is not fair. The Government would rather give extra weeks\u2019 paid parental leave to those who get it already, than address the problem of the self-employed. The Government would rather give to people who have been in employment for less than a year, than give to somebody who has been self-employed for many years. Is that fair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E It is not fair in New Zealand First\u2019s view. The Government would rather give paid parental leave to high-earning people than to self-employed people. Is that fair? It is not fair in New Zealand First\u2019s book. It is a long way from fair. I say to the member from United Future sitting opposite that I listened to him intently. He supports the bill. He recognises that it does nothing for the self-employed but he will not help the situation. He is just going to put his hand up. Is this another case of another bite of the elephant? For goodness\u2019 sake, how many bites does he want of the elephant? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ea7eb09f0b246f582700971ca57ea3d\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m pretty hungry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022710dc0a2da1b4396aed1092bedf77f98\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the honourable member that there is a little old saying that New Zealand First tries to live to\u2014\u201CDo it once, do it right.\u201D [Interruption] I am sure that members do not disagree with me on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229024aa9a54674573b98bdc60721c91f4\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Can we fix it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226183257afc1245b3bb2a165045bfd685\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We can fix it. My colleague has the Supplementary Order Paper. Can we fix it? Yes, we can, and we are going to. We are going to appeal to Mr Adams\u2019 conscience. I know we have got him, as he is wriggling in his seat. He is feeling very, very uncomfortable. I know that Sue Bradford is very genuine when she says she wants to help the self-employed, but she says that it is 12 months away. I say to Sue Bradford that help is much closer than that. We can fix this in 12 days. We can get the Supplementary Order Paper through that my colleague has produced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a945d5bab546dab2f156b61b259c28\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Is it in your name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285b1412f1018452b82c6c9db26d91dc6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is in the name of my colleague Bill Gudgeon. He was on the select committee, he listened to all the submissions, and he sat down and diligently came up with a Supplementary Order Paper that tidies up the whole thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e2d1578bc174ac8ba81c11ab77acb1c\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Is it within the scope of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293097200fe5d411d995148b68a3112e7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it is within the scope of the bill. It is in the Minister\u2019s wish list. We are turning this bill into a genuine, fair article. The member cannot be serious when she asks whether it is within the scope of the bill. The second bullet point in the commentary, under the suggestions to improve the scheme, is the aim to do that, and my colleague has fixed it. I say to members opposite that if they vote against Mr Gudgeon\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper they are doing a disservice to self-employed women in particular. When did the first bill go through? Was it in 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9de9b1804d64a11b452475e78b2879f\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e13b5cbc874bfdb8b1c5e269249bfd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: In 2002, before the last election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc16af4a90c43f29a070b08a3a20083\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Just before, when National had 39 MPs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11548a0bda640f0a34ba0f1104ade3e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, I remember the member raising that point. National should take note of that. It will shrink another 50 percent if it does not. We tripled in number. I say to the honourable members opposite that this is the second attempt to get this sort of legislation correct and we believe that the self-employed have to be included in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EAnother concern we have\u2014and I do not see that this bill has addressed it\u2014is that young women take paid parental leave and then do not return to the firm that they have taken the parental leave from. I know they are paid by the taxpayer, but they leave the firm and they do not come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a75254a71114b7da0784dee077237d7\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022780ee6c8986d4a158b307d696882cb88\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that there should be a commitment to come back to the firm, or at least to tell the firm before they take off that they are not coming back. That is only reasonable and fair, is it not? Is that not what John Tamihere told Labour today\u2014that he has gone for a few weeks but he intends coming back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e6307352214e9da3cf43aa8c650453\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: He might not have a choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab774a5ce4a84cc592cde2fcb8a27867\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, he might not have a choice, but it is only reasonable that people who take paid parental leave indicate to the firm, the company, or whomever, whether they are coming back to the firm. The firm could be left in a terrible situation. A young woman may go off for 12 weeks\u2014it is going to increase to 14 weeks\u2014and then disappear without trace. That is not acceptable. It is not fair to the businesses of New Zealand and we will be putting up a Supplementary Order Paper on it. I say seriously to the House that we will not necessarily support this bill unless it addresses the full problems. We will determine that at caucus. At the moment we want the bill to proceed, but we want it to do so on the basis that it addresses the problems in relation to the self-employed. I am being deadly serious. I believe that Mr Gudgeon\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper addresses that problem comprehensively. It adds amendments to clauses 8, 9, 11, and 12 to cover the circumstances of the self-employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200410195a3c17928341445cb5217e2fba5667c9000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"