"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276ab7ac2f2654960a1d9f812e34e4d56\u0022\u003EWednesday, 3 November 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad23dbb8e9e34c78a0f30cc572fd4c11\u0022\u003EWednesday, 3 November 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a91e2e89b0564a649a193727b99910f4\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022091b7cf9463a402cbcc69dbc1e8d645a\u0022\u003EMember for Tamaki Makaurau\u2014Response to Allegations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u002221aa4ac97c074365ba502153226082c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221aa4ac97c074365ba502153226082c5\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE (Labour\u2014Tamaki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E I respectfully seek the leave of the House to make a personal statement under Standing Order 343 with regard to a range of allegations that have been made against me in this House over the course of the last 2 weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6413c87ae094a788a59b922fb5977dc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is not. This will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4419a2f91d844b2b5551532c26d3fee\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just need to get some clarification from you with regard to the status of comments made in this statement by Mr Tamihere. What limitations will those comments put upon, firstly, questions that have been legitimately placed on the sheet today, and, secondly, any consequential debate that is likely to result later in the day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222adaddc565164905a9732b85e70ec2ce\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Comments can be only of a personal nature; they have no effect on anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec812d4fe8a48f49bf313ee3e5b2dbf\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: My point was that the National Party would strongly object to this personal statement being made if it were to mean that matters relating to Mr Tamihere that are still of significant public interest were disbarred from discussion in this House. I need your clarification on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af85cafeb97a432bb2c357402c0980ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, this is a personal statement about personal matters. It does not debar any further comments, questions, or any other issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220db1d332ee6b4f57a5208c4bbe53ed62\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Over recent weeks a number of false but serious allegations have been made about me. This morning I met with Mr Douglas White QC. On the basis of information I have made available to him, I am confident his inquiry will find that I have done nothing wrong. I wish to take this opportunity to deal with the range of false allegations, in order to set the record straight for the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe first allegation is that I did not pay tax on a payment I received from the Waipareira Trust. This allegation is groundless. The payment was made net of tax. This has been accepted by the trust. I am advised that I have met all my obligations to the Inland Revenue Department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe second allegation related to election expenses. I confirm that I provided a written declaration as to my election expenses in 1999, and that in all respects they were correct. The allegations to the contrary have no substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThere was another allegation, about the register of Ministers\u2019 interests. I confirm that my ministerial declarations are absolutely correct. With regard to an interest in M\u0101ori land, the fact is I have not succeeded to any interest, and will not succeed to my father\u2019s interest, because it will be vested in a wh\u0101nau trust. Allegations were made that I should have declared an interest in two titles in the west Auckland area. I have no beneficial interest in those properties; I am only a trustee for my nieces and nephews. My declaration is correct, and the Cabinet Office has confirmed that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EAllegations have been made against me about a second-hand Toyota vehicle that was provided to me as a director of Westland Ltd. I always believed that I dealt with that issue according to my arrangements with the company and with the trust. I had no knowledge of the payment of insurance. I had no knowledge of the insurance company. This is a matter that will be clarified by the White inquiry, and, again, I am confident that he will find I have done nothing wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI come now to the Paragon Risk report. The media and Opposition members have made much ado about that report. I confirm to the House that on 29 October 2004\u2014last Friday\u2014I contacted the Serious Fraud Office and handed a full copy of the Paragon Risk report across to it, asking it to investigate the matter urgently and expeditiously. It was me who referred the report to the Serious Fraud Office, as I wanted the matter addressed properly and correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EIt is correct that as the chief executive officer of Te Wh\u0101nau o Waipareira Trust, I signed cheque requisition forms for hundreds of thousands of dollars at various times. That was part of my job. I state to this House that I have never signed forms authorising cash payments, which is what led to the payments identified in the Paragon Risk report. I state to the House that I was not aware of any invalid invoices, and I was not a recipient of any of the payments referred to in the Paragon Risk report. I have absolutely nothing to hide, which is why I instigated and welcome the Serious Fraud Office inquiry and the White inquiry, and I will continue to cooperate fully with those inquiries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI come now to the final matter\u2014the so-called golden handshake. The Rt Hon Winston Peters raised this matter in the House on 27 July 1999 by way of questions in the House. A large part of the so-called $195,000 package consisted of salary and performance bonuses for previous years. Some of that had already been paid. The balance was an ex gratia payment for my overall contributions to the trust over 8 years as chief executive. I decided not to accept the ex gratia payment, and said so publicly at the time. I was again contacted by senior members of the trust, including our kuia, Auntie June M\u0101riu\u2014the chairperson\u2014and the trust secretary, Mr Reg R\u0101tahi. I did change my mind, and I decided to accept the ex gratia component of the payment, following the election in 1999. It is correct that I did not advise the Prime Minister that I had accepted this component of the package, and that I deeply regret.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EOf course I was aware that we had campaigned with regard to golden handshakes. It was clear in my mind that what we were talking about was not that kind of payment. During my years as the chief executive officer of the Waipareira Trust its staff grew from 12 to 240, and its assets grew from $1 million to $12 million. Contrary to some claims, most of that increase in assets came from wise investment and management. The trust made its ex gratia payment to me because it was grateful to me. I have broken no law, and I am confident that Mr White\u2019s inquiry will find no improper behaviour on my part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI have resigned from Cabinet today because I did change my mind and accept a golden handshake, and I did not tell my Prime Minister. Some see that as hypocrisy, and I will do my time. I came to Wellington not just to serve as a Minister but to work for my constituents. I could not in all good conscience continue to take a Cabinet salary while awaiting the outcome 3 weeks from now of an inquiry. There are some significant ranges of work, and I have come down here to represent my constituents in Tamaki Makaurau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002276571a6470a144e7ae9b6a8a18b442cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276571a6470a144e7ae9b6a8a18b442cc\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to ask Mr John Tamihere two questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a5fa1319d6b4688b1d0fce9d88d06d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bef767936e374815acfcefbf53dc3040\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3d2f78df7e145c5b04de106a896a479\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d58b8a8d974c4f2a948e513d579177a2\u0022\u003ETertiary Education\u2014Quality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260410116bed242e9a1fbd700227bd3dc\u0022\u003E1. HELEN DUNCAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education): What initiatives is he putting in place to encourage tertiary education institutions to become more focused on the quality of teaching and learning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00227bfed503486e4a40bc05d26a2724e873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bfed503486e4a40bc05d26a2724e873\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)):\u003C/span\u003E Last Friday the Government announced a new student component performance measure to help improve the quality of teaching in the sector by highlighting student retention, looking at completion rates and establishing a nationwide student survey. This will shift the focus of providers away from simply enrolling students towards helping them succeed and ensuring they are enrolled in courses that meet their needs. The performance measure emphasises teaching excellence, just as the Performance-based Research Fund emphasises excellence in research. Providers with the weakest performance will receive additional assistance and attention from the Tertiary Education Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f686719705465bb2f7748b2479142a\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives are in place to encourage excellence in teaching and learning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9c740b256ab4feeab5aea6c3dedfa0b\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: For the past 3 years we have been running the very successful Tertiary Teacher Excellence Awards to recognise the top examples of teaching practice from across the tertiary sector. Before the end of the year I intend to announce a new package of initiatives to support professional development for tertiary teachers, and that will be implemented in the following year. All in all, we are looking at a very good environment for emphasising the quality of tertiary teaching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9075ce8e73418cafa296fdf63619f0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why would anyone in tertiary education take the Minister seriously on this, when he has exercised no accountability whatsoever for tens of millions of dollars spent on low-quality, low-grade courses such as Christchurch Polytechnic\u2019s Cool IT, which cost the taxpayer $15 million; 13,000 enrolled students did not do the course, and no-one has taken responsibility for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227878e732a81244d187ffd4777c103b0a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: People in tertiary education will take the Government seriously because they have already seen the success of the Performance-based Research Fund, which they were directly involved in, and they have also been directly involved in all of the teaching excellence measures that I announced Friday and today. That is why they will take it seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c08c47a24443518105290e239058a6\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Associate Minister consider an initiative to create a new class of tertiary institution, namely, a university of technology, to enable Unitec to focus on learning and teaching rather than on chasing university status, as it has since 1996? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022306813fca164488a83bcabf5ff33b1a5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s question gives me the opportunity to say that I have been approached by the member representing the New Zealand First Party to raise the issue of universities of technology, and I have agreed that we will explore that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267aa9f1328df4408b1d797870e7182a4\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Will student evaluations of teaching and learning be made publicly available, in light of the fact that resources such as Kiwi Quals website give prospective students little information about the quality of different courses, when the dubious quality of some of those courses has been a major concern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220917098751294bf98a32d510ccb26ad6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the point of the nationwide student survey is to provide comparable public information, so that students have a better basis on which to make up their minds when choosing the institution they want to go to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c48cfe0d4f664bd2a78cf66b6668acb5\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What other indicators, other than those mentioned in the answer to the primary question, were considered for the performance measure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44c7127e13049978684ec5be0e6f579\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: We considered the ability to sustain public interest, the strong engagement with community and industry organisations, and the ability to establish a coherent programme\u2014exactly the kind of indicators that, for example, the National Party has failed to comply with over the last little while, but which we expect our institutions to comply with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c070a76be37a4c40abdc37cb03bb66ac\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Another lie from him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022698631ccb4e84503a735788ae60b9e41\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard that comment\u2014the member knows he made it. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise, or he leaves the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267e9bea25f0646b58623d7669c310aa9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I will leave the House, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022493c826f6e064f09812bf486254d5aa4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a long-time habit of that particular Minister, at the end of every single question, to go outside the Standing Orders and make references to matters for which he has no responsibility. These are not only incorrect but are simply outside of his ministerial responsibility and are in breach of the Standing Orders. We on this side of the House simply seek for you to require Ministers to comply with the Standing Orders and not allow them to make statements that are incorrect and outside of what the answer requires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227279f04908d2434ea881440678701cf8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On that particular point of order I can say that I was about to say exactly that to the Minister, because he did go outside the Standing Orders. However, a comment was made that cannot be accepted in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405a5ca519f34d7c92ef70849de07e69\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that university lecturers are not required to undertake any sort of training in teaching practices, and does he view the introduction of a performance-based element to the student component as a catalyst for providers to ensure that their teaching staff do have this kind of training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d8843be4184387aa9e02d02c6f0668\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that tertiary teachers are not required to have a teaching credential, but it is certainly my opinion that we are moving now into an era when they will be required to do so. What we are going to be funding in the near future is the basis for professional development across the tertiary sector, which I personally hope will lead to them being credentialed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed933bce23c94f4e9cbb211b0127fd64\u0022\u003EMember for Tamaki Makaurau\u2014Assurances\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb1ed59f438d40a9be7c8a237db119ab\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she accept the Hon John Tamihere at his word, given that he took a golden handshake that he said he would not take; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00220d270a06bbe845bfafd3307dfd230323\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d270a06bbe845bfafd3307dfd230323\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E In Mr Tamihere\u2019s statement to the House today he has said that he accepted an ex gratia payment when he said he would not accept one. He further said he regretted not advising me of that, and I regret that too, as my advice would have been not to accept it. Mr Tamihere has resigned from Cabinet today, and I accept that as an honourable course of action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287da73b13ee54780a7de405ea18b6609\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Prime Minister\u2019s response, what has changed since yesterday, when she promised this House due process for Mr Tamihere, and today, when she accepted his resignation? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5c68009da6480e8cc30173eb32c501\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not going to warn people about interjecting or making noises while questions are being asked. Questions are entitled to be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c0a1f56e8ed49b98dddc68929a7acc1\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I told the House yesterday there is a process in train\u2014and it still is in train\u2014to have a report on a range of allegations, many of them mounted by the member, concerning Mr Tamihere. That process is going on. Mr Tamihere meantime has decided he will resign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2b93663f715479fb143faf005b1b881\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Why would anybody accept Mr Tamihere at his word, given the revelation that he took a golden handshake when he said he would not take one, and his admission on page 28 of his book that one thing he was good at was \u201Ctelling stories, some of them less than truthful.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3877bb839b84f3ba1ba5e233c173a2f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: A member\u2019s word in this House is accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dece717a2e184b2aa5d907d4f79df0fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does she intend to ask Mr Tamihere to apologise for saying that my allegation that a golden handshake and a vehicle were going to be settled upon him was a lie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fee6947089f7449eaf455bf24dd9d6a6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Apart from what I have said today, I intend to wait for Mr White to determine the full facts around the payment. At that point it is a matter for Mr Tamihere to judge how he will react.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022880f93f32d1940659e067dc8100d16b7\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Prime Minister\u2019s answer to the primary question, at what time did she receive John Tamihere\u2019s resignation, and at what time did she accept it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce9d9f919b5b419cab17b8df18b70b2b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am not travelling with a stopwatch. I received the resignation sometime around 11.30 this morning and I accepted it to pass on to the Governor-General, who of course must be the person who acts on my advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e63d0cb47242b6858ffda0369a1557\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that Mr John Tamihere should apologise to the people of New Zealand for saying he would not take a golden handshake, and then taking one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd8a5d86a57e492fbce9e1986c35d69e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That is for Mr Tamihere, but I myself would have thought that the honour with which he acted today would be seen as precisely an apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166726e61f124be5b04309cad7c4ee17\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has she sought from Mr John Tamihere a full explanation of all the allegations against him and full disclosure; if she has not done that, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7309cff533466895b1b72247f7c718\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Establishing that is the entire point of the White inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4241d61cabc4a7b86108a5fd688bdaa\u0022\u003EWorking for Families Package\u2014Budget\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022816c5627cb854b8791c53d6bca4c79ca\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Is the Government proposing any changes to the Working for Families package in the next Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022172609d212414713ac9b3675bb0018bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022172609d212414713ac9b3675bb0018bb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E At this stage, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca32b867372949e0bc1b1c85642e3dc9\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What reaction does the Minister have to last week\u2019s OECD report, which pointed to particular problems with second income earners in families, and is the Government prepared to consider ways of boosting the income of second income earners through tax reforms such as income splitting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022118d0f2a13084dbcbe4772bb7c4d26c1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Income splitting is an interesting idea, and I will give a few examples of how it would work. If a couple both earned $30,000 a year, there would be a net gain of zero from income splitting. But with one income of $60,000 a year, there would be a net gain of somewhere around $100 a week or more. It is hard to see why that would be seen as equitable when, in fact, it is more expensive for two people to go out to work than for one person to go out to work in most cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7c2b748b9c54e198b97745c9aeda510\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister supportive of the accommodation supplements contained in his Working for Families package; if he is, how does he reconcile that support with the following statement: \u201CThe accommodation supplement or voucher for housing has harmed, not helped, housing provision for poor New Zealanders, including many M\u0101ori and Pacific Islanders.\u201D, which was from Helen Clark in June 1994?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe76dadcc8ce49c4a90a329b97196109\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The introduction of the accommodation supplement system, which went along with the removal of income-related rents and the introduction of market-related rents in State housing, led to a significant increase in the cost of housing for low-income earners. It is only with a strong programme of income-related rents and State house acquisition that the accommodation supplement system makes any sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d09ed002c5948948c222dca07233be8\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister concede that in a progressive income tax system, if the brackets are not adjusted following significant movement in the consumer price index, as they will be for the Working for Families package, the taxes are being increased in real terms; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d47d353449a04b3aad3a3ab2432c5011\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but the largest reason for the gain in taxation over the last 2 or 3 years has, in fact, been the growth in employment rather than any fiscal drag effects through bracket creep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ec05088eb145efb8bd2936eeb059f5\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise the House, in light of the reality that in a progressive income tax system taxes are being increased in real terms unless the brackets are adjusted for the movement in the consumer price index, how large such an increase would need to be before he would adjust the tax brackets to give some much-needed relief to New Zealand families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac572bd7b9c451e9f14bbc3f0df6cdc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have a particular set against any changes at any point in the future. But if I plucked a sum out of the air of, say, $500 million\u2014which is probably the rough cost of income splitting, or something rather north of that\u2014if that sum was delivered, say, through bracket indexation arrangements, the vast majority of workers would get very little, or around $4 to $5 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0dec38ebc104bf79862b8219341f68f\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister understand that in indexing the tax collected on tobacco, alcohol, and petrol, whilst refusing to index tax reductions by using the same methodology, the families of New Zealand may perceive that the Government is applying a double standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb3c2378bfb74f798e67daf2b4855023\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they may, but in response to that let me say that the reason for the excise duties on tobacco is not simply to raise money but is to discourage tobacco consumption. If there is no indexation, then the impact of that negative signal actually reduces over time. Secondly, in terms of the excise duties on petrol, as the member is well aware, the real income from petrol excise duty reduces without indexation, so we cannot afford more roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ee6e55229a49e69262011cab82acbf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: With what rigour did the United Future party approach him and his leader during the time of negotiations in respect of their guarantee of support for supply\u2014or did its members just plain lie over, as they usually do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b54716fe884d469dd7b92303653482\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, the United Future party did not turn the other cheek in any shape or form during the negotiations with the Government. But it was interested in making sure MMP works, with stable Government. This is the first Government that has produced stable Government under MMP, unlike the attempts when that member was a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f700fa54c0b4499cb0d7979d3007979d\u0022\u003EMember for Tamaki Makaurau\u2014Decision Making\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b3b74ce9cbc444e92a63fa5cfda8071\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What new information does she need in order to decide whether Hon John Tamihere has misled the New Zealand public over his acceptance of a golden handshake, and to remove his ministerial warrant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc86a702a0f8475eac1f7902d0cf4e33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc86a702a0f8475eac1f7902d0cf4e33\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E John Tamihere no longer holds a ministerial warrant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8a00f3df0dc440692a83cc042ae6e26\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Hon John Tamihere mislead her and the New Zealand public when he took a golden handshake from the Waipareira Trust despite earlier assurances that he would not; if so, why has she left his ministerial portfolios open, when it is clear that he should have been sacked anyway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b71bdae2b5f4fb29a94b719626fd5dc\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I said earlier, Mr Tamihere advised the House today that he had accepted the ex gratia payment although he had said that he would not. He said that he regretted not advising me, and I have said that I regret that, as well. I consider his resignation today as an honourable course of action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bb033b3a2543839cc9e782cbd7d57b\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the Prime Minister unable to make a political decision that John Tamihere should no longer have a seat at her Cabinet table, given the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e3f959a681b4a1caa013c74b3affe20\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ddb159a48c4a76bb9ea69afd7f2961\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know the point the member is going to make. [Interruption] The member very nearly was asked to leave; I am on my feet and there will be no comments at all. I always give a warning, and I gave a warning to his own side earlier on. I am warning members that there will be no comments during questions, or members will be leaving. Members have a right to ask their questions in silence. This is a democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8273dfb0aad4149831dbb4e6d48c8fd\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Are the warnings now one per side? It used to be that there was a warning, and the next time the recipient was kicked out, or asked by you to leave the Chamber\u2014I think that is the appropriate way to express it. When you have given a warning to the other side, the warning has been to the whole House. It now appears that once you have warned the Opposition, the Government gets another run at it, and then it gets a different warning. Is that the new rule?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b8c6f06d0e34c26aa3171983b8a53e2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not. I apologise because I did not do the right thing on this occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ede743ff5afd41b8bffb941f7f7e72a7\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the Prime Minister unable to make a political decision that the Hon John Tamihere should lose his seat at her Cabinet table, given the undisputed fact that he took a golden handshake after he had told her and the New Zealand public that he would not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a61388e66e446a18c560e60fc025640\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Like all fair-minded New Zealanders, I suspended judgment pending a full examination of the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6d8218362594e33b07f3144d65003e9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Having regard to her frequent use of the word \u201Chonour\u201D, and the clear understanding of most people that Mr Tamihere jumped before he was pushed, how does honour come into it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de53b7fe115e4aa8a8c6a3265081a834\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Honour comes into it in that in the statement set out today Mr Tamihere has expressed regret, and he has resigned from Cabinet. We now await full establishment of the facts by Douglas White QC, and I expect the Serious Fraud Office report to go on for some time after that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90f24b7b3ad4b778307032c75c93d3b\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not clear that, while there are a number of things still in debate and contention that the Douglas White QC report will investigate, there is no doubt at all that Mr Tamihere said he would not accept an ex gratia payment, but did so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221716729f7eb84d269e869e31acc39161\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That is what he has told the House today, and he has resigned his portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bbba931a65e4f59af2636bf9d6381a8\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Prime Minister think would be the appropriate course for Mr John Tamihere to follow, if his personal statement today was found to be substantially incorrect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1dd95381d2494396bb6d6940393b7d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that members take great care when they draft ministerial statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253039af6399443bca150863e56e9ad08\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How many of her colleagues on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee informed her of the evidence of a former lawyer for the Waipareira Trust, who made allegations before the select committee about 32 forged cheques involving the Waipareira Trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da943b8f31da4d548683f687878ee2c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any awareness of the matter the member is just raising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b01498c8a9eb41babbbc829387e4fde9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Would she expect that members of her Government on the select committee would, if they heard such a serious allegation being made by a person of that level of knowledge\u2014being a lawyer for the Waipareira Trust\u2014come and tell her what they had heard at the select committee that day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66b6db677b9415992c16767f99872ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is very rarely that any members come to tell me what was said at a select committee. Who knows what they thought of what was said. I can only listen to what the member is saying, but it is the first time I have heard it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b0ca2bfb11d4e5c9cb357a8457d11ae\u0022\u003EFuel Efficiency\u2014Government Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daba7933da644c4e848724d3978f0e32\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour\u2014Napier)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy: What is the Government doing to promote vehicle fuel efficiency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002219da187a32a145659e7f4710e6752f95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219da187a32a145659e7f4710e6752f95\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E The Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority is, this week, promoting vehicle fuel efficiency through its EnergyWise Rally. Some of our top rally drivers are competing, to illustrate how driving techniques can save a lot of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290821e06ff734e7d9fd6ec1e1e9e667c\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: How much is \u201Ca lot\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd32dfac07c74af88eab5c811ba241ff\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Around 20 percent, at little or no cost, through things like tyre pressure or engine tuning, as well as driving style. But, on top of that, a bunch of new technologies are on trial\u2014biofuelled cars, hybrids, and high-efficiency turbo diesels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd21575fdb845878b6207e94d4f1bd6\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that his Government at one time promoted greater use of compressed natural gas (CNG) as a fuel that favoured fuel efficiency and environmental friendliness; if so, can he tell us what he personally is doing to encourage its use, my noting that garages selling it are closing down, and that in Tauranga there are none where people can buy it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8f52c479ef5412e91744378e147141c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: CNG was promoted primarily during the Muldoon Government. It did not seem to work very well. Its use has been on the decline for 20 years. On the other hand, the use of liquefied petroleum gas is on the increase, as is the use of a range of other fuels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ba54a6f92994141a738a3f577461b18\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: What other steps is the Government, in partnership with the Greens, taking to improve fuel efficiency and reduce vehicle emissions, and when does he expect the first programmes to be introduced? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274439589d49741c1b00a675e4a89e997\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows he cannot do that. Because I previously was generous, I will be generous on this occasion. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise for making an interjection when he should not have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcced4d2ae264243930b9c51c47cf015\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e29c28211b4727ad9f7304d0f2eeff\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, vehicle emissions testing began in September this year, managed by my colleague the Hon Judith Tizard. The member may also know of moves to phase in the introduction of substantially cleaner fuels between this year and 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bca260e5bcd482daea54952b27da738\u0022\u003EMember for Tamaki Makaurau\u2014Ministerial Duties\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d37b13c63b6d498790e4836999e15ce9\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What ministerial duties and responsibilities are currently being undertaken by the Hon John Tamihere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002205233813d05c40439a15255947f8756e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205233813d05c40439a15255947f8756e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E None.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208724e88d763441caf5090572ef968a5\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she fail to sack Mr Tamihere when it has been clear from the beginning that he has misled the New Zealand public by accepting a golden handshake that he said he would not take, and why was Mr Tamihere left to make the decision that she should have taken herself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224584309688cf4c9e8ddc664a238b6ad5\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said in answer to previous questions, like all fair-minded New Zealanders\u2014and I think that came out at something like 82 percent\u2014I suspended judgment pending a full examination of the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207cd3db2ad3546fb93de4352afa56860\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Why was Mr Tamihere still receiving his full ministerial salary until he decided he should resign today, and why was his treatment very different from that meted out to Marian Hobbs and Phillida Bunkle, who were both required to resign their ministerial posts while their actions were being investigated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8c1b3a9eb674c72853013de84750e94\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: On the latter point\u2014and I know the member was not here\u2014both members tendered their resignations to me. As I have said endlessly, the Minister stood aside. He was still a Minister, but there were Acting Ministers appointed. That is why he was receiving the salary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e832f093c742e09c569f546d25a19e\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: How can anyone seriously believe that John Tamihere\u2019s resignation is anything but a sham when his ministerial portfolios have been left open for his return, after he has clearly misled the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214623b45b2ca4352ba4175bdf930fe2a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The portfolios are not open; they have Acting Ministers. I have decided not to appoint a new member of Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2e3d253eee04286be1b1aa09eecc7e0\u0022\u003EFarming\u2014Sustainability\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac0710fb22d14c118ef35294afac0aaa\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Has he received any recent advice on the sustainability of New Zealand farming practices; if so, what action is he taking as a result?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u002245d187b77f18488483da0f89746dabd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245d187b77f18488483da0f89746dabd5\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has published a report called Growing for Good: Intensive farming, sustainability and New Zealand\u2019s environment. The Government has already implemented many policies in the areas he discusses, under our focus on sustainable development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d86cbf0bef4d2f8f501c22d4ff3bb8\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned at the finding of the report that, across all farming sectors, nitrogen fertiliser use has increased by 160 percent in just 6 years; and what impact does he expect this to have on water quality in lowland streams and central North Island lakes, given the advice from the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research that they are already seriously polluted from agricultural runoff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d178a622534669983f911afe321d8f\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that that is a startling increase, and is partly brought about by the increasing prevalence of the clover weevil, which means that natural clover cannot fix as much nitrogen as before. I look at it in the context of the situation that 99 percent of dairy suppliers who require resource consents obtain them, and 17 percent\u2014and very rapidly increasing\u2014of dairy farmers utilise input-output nutrient management systems. I appreciate that farmers can mitigate the effects of increased artificial nitrogen use, and increasingly and vigorously are doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296fa4b6d04ed4f76a8850d7472551659\u0022\u003EJanet Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister describe any particular programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dead1e082b148a59a21cf30ba8f9ddd\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I could, at length, but I will just say that this Government facilitated an agreement between the dairy industry, local government, and central government\u2014the Dairying and Clean Streams Accord\u2014which addresses issues of intensive dairy farming. The Sustainable Farming Fund has funded 101 specific projects that address the issues that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has raised in his report, and the Government\u2019s Water Programme of Action is studying better ways to allocate water resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c64dea156484eb0a7c041d039a2b878\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that New Zealand\u2019s soil loss to the oceans through erosion occurs at a rate 10 times faster than the world average, and has been accelerated by land clearance and stocking rates on steep country; and how will he manage this issue to prevent a recurrence of the disastrous floods in deforested catchments that hit New Zealand again earlier this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df69fd2f970e4c6d8fcc0caeadefd03b\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Members should recall that New Zealand is a geologically young country and, at the same time as we are being thrust from the oceans by the movements of tectonic plates, the top is being washed off and is flowing back into the oceans. I would, however, say that there is erosion that has been accelerated by what is almost certainly unsustainable patterns of land use in many places, and I have officials devising policies to address those problems in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b95c866c73e43e08a7ee92c1456a9c9\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister ever asked his officials, the Minister of Police, or the Minister of Justice to calculate the cost of crime and the fear of crime to New Zealand farming families, or the loss of sustainability of valuable stock on land that thieves and thugs now treat as public access land; and what is the Minister doing to persuade Mr Goff that the criminal law is not working to protect rural New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95b26ebca3d452bb763ece2818563f2\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can certainly say that one thing I will not be doing is supporting the member\u2019s initiative to make it legal for farmers to shoot trespassers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b80dc3cf52f4af9b5701c88f37f1bd0\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: What strategies does the Minister have to ensure that New Zealand farming survives further increases in energy prices as world oil production peaks, given the heavy reliance on fertilisers and pesticides made from fossil fuels, an increase of 30 percent in direct energy inputs to farming in just a decade, large electricity demands to pump irrigation, and high fuel use to transport bulk agricultural exports to market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb5a3510855e4a2a80b7c608cff64e03\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I will certainly encourage the adoption of irrigation technologies that rely on gravity to distribute water, rather than on unnecessary pumping. There are good answers to all the member\u2019s other questions, but I cannot really go through them all in the short time allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e99f78d5d34511858c6086f714e94b\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister accept the recommendations of the commissioner to lead in the development and implementation of indicators of sustainable farming?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282628fccba5842f88a41699fadad9b2b\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government will certainly be taking a lead in the facilitation of sustainable farming practices. As to whether the Government itself will develop the indicators the member seeks, that is something we are still considering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac0b5f590c541deb50123e0fea1de4f\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: If New Zealand faces trade barriers because of unsustainable farm practices, as the commissioner suggests, will the Minister manage that risk by making New Zealand farming more sustainable, or will he just try to use World Trade Organization rules to force customers to accept environmentally damaging products?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faedf3e505a847d6adb3631bacbb09c4\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is my firm belief that New Zealand is second to no nation when it comes to sustainable farm management practices. Everything this Government does encourages further progress to be made in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002279632a228c874dcea1ef53789f0fda59\u0022\u003EFamily Court\u2014Mediators\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795200dbfd2f468dac571d0ca3f17aab\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Courts: Is he satisfied that the new $1.5 million trial of mediators in the Family Court is sufficient reform to improve outcomes for children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf548a4816c64676af5b4767a4cf9beb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf548a4816c64676af5b4767a4cf9beb\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E The $1.5 million will fund the cost of pilots in four courts, offering families involved in custody, guardianship, and access disputes the opportunity for non - judge led mediation, as recommended by the Law Commission. Evaluation of the pilot will determine whether there have been improved outcomes for children, and this will have a lot of influence on future policy-making decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226efe392e3e554958a493c50e72dd4e3e\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that research indicates that children are at risk of significant lifelong negative outcomes from ongoing conflict during parental separation, which can be greatly reduced when parents receive training on how to protect children and support them during Family Court cases; if so, does he agree that initiatives to develop mandatory parent education programmes should be given priority if we are to give real effect to promoting the best interests of the child?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022292083c731d742daa262429f60713c4a\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is well aware of those issues and takes very seriously its responsibilities as a leader in these issues to help parents make good decisions. We will help parents with more counselling, more information, and more advice so that they can better undertake their responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b356e620b864c6792584c6776c69c36\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister acclaiming this pilot programme when there have already been three pilots of non - judge led mediation in different parts of the country\u2014this is nothing new?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fef323fe06fc499ab0dfaa8d67db1f74\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: My advice is that it is new. Secondly, this will have a very clear and serious evaluation process and it is following the recommendation of the Law Commission in its report into the Family Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022726392947fa54c07b108e4a2a6e3b671\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister outline the Government initiatives that aim to improve the Family Court processes for children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0687b0d467d48ab94985c54753840a8\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The interests of children are central to the Government\u2019s improvements in relation to the Family Court. For example, the new Family Court website has a special section designed for children that makes the court processes easier for them to understand. The family mediation pilot will enable children to be involved in the discussions about their family\u2019s future, which will make it less scary for the children. This pilot will hopefully lead to quicker processes to resolve a family\u2019s issues, and families making decisions by themselves. If the families make their own decisions, they will be durable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c37d951f5745979358cb41551546d6\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister intend to make this mediation proposal compulsory in all custody and access cases or only in those cases where a likelihood of successful mediation is possible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a0aeb158574f42a2038220e78b15d7\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The mediation can never be compulsory, because mediation is about the parties negotiating and discussing outcomes for themselves. The compulsion part is when the matter is referred to the judge for a decision. That is the compulsion part. We are trying to get better processes in place before that so that families themselves come to their own decisions about their futures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d063927f760f497cb0bf66964bdcdec5\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister extend his commitment to making Family Court processes more child and family-friendly to funding a national roll-out of the Children in the Middle parent education programme that is already piloted on the North Shore by the Family Court Association; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022130d324fbb494e76b28b1f517c096389\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not familiar with all the details around that pilot, but after the member\u2019s question I will certainly go and investigate the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1e3af62597045c4bdd2275da1d8c277\u0022\u003EDisability Strategy\u2014Implementation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffeeb24a0a3f458fa8b44776b258eb87\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Disability Issues: What reports has she received on the implementation of the disability strategy by Government agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00222dd2dc04d13e4df4a2909cc7e516cb40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dd2dc04d13e4df4a2909cc7e516cb40\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I recently tabled in Parliament the progress report on the implementation of the New Zealand Disability Strategy for 2003-04. That report shows that a record number of Government agencies are now making a commitment to address the issues facing disabled people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dccb6f13ad94f38b6f80d399fcf273b\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What initiatives have been introduced over the last year to promote the aims of the disability strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de379faacf1e4cec9264ec0e32a1263f\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: There is a very long list, which includes: the introduction of a bill to recognise the language of deaf New Zealanders; a bill to ensure disabled people have the same employment rights as other New Zealanders; changes to the invalids benefit system that removed barriers to employment; and an additional $23 million that has gone into supporting high-needs children and disabled students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287778f90548246f19e29c0b9d5a2fed4\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: How does freezing the funding for some home-support contracts, when the average hourly rate is about $10.50 an hour, fit with the disability strategy objective to \u201CDevelop a highly skilled workforce to support disabled people\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f8bbed2c22411cba0ac3f0074c926e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The question emanated from a report that was in the Dominion Post this morning. Fortunately, that report is now out of date. I will briefly quote from a letter that the Ministry of Health recently sent to home-based support providers, which stated: \u201CI am committed to working collaboratively with your association in the immediate term to find a way through the issues and concerns facing the sector.\u201D It goes on to state: \u201CI wish to reassure you that the letter you received does not necessarily mean that there will be no price increases for 2 years.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1ceadc942dc4acf81f21a7448109379\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have a similarly reassuring message for the many disability non-governmental organisations that have been holding meetings all around New Zealand about the cuts and cut-offs in disability support funding over a whole range of services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb2e4d6ca3145d5a082fe8c5a3a4080\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: There have not been cuts or a freeze in disability support services. The issues facing the current budget are challenging, but I am committed to continuing to work with the providers and with disabled people to find a satisfactory outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f54f8573a3d4797a2db29f1baeb2441\u0022\u003EImmigration Fraud\u2014China\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f815aed92c140d6bdb824b9bec685d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: With regard to reported comments: \u201CImmigration fraud from China has fuelled a thriving black market on the streets of Christchurch, and authorities have struggled to come to terms with the fraud.\u201D, how widespread does he believe this problem to be, and what plans, if any, does he have to deal with the problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00223f4d5d6d5a844b9388f3030beba91a43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f4d5d6d5a844b9388f3030beba91a43\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is concerned about immigration fraud. The size of the problem is, however, hard to estimate. The Government has allocated an additional $20 million over 4 years to deal with the issue. It has increased the number of immigration fraud investigators, established an intelligence unit, strengthened the relationship between the police and the Immigration Service, and is moving to regulate the immigration advice industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221733750072434b2cbccdd472b2e8f060\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that in August 2004 a Christchurch newspaper by the name of i-Ball\u2014\u201CBridging the Cultures\u201D is on its title\u2014has a front-page and third-page article outlining that international students, mainly from China, can buy camouflage passports from the Internet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277d7421d7c84c549fef4c211e4d9250\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously there have been lots of allegations of matters around people getting access to fraudulent documents. That is unacceptable. As a result, the Government has increased money in order to be able to deal with that very, very major problem of fraudulent documents. That is why the number of convictions and prosecutions is rising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d692778e1c024377826e2feda91fe2b8\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: What success has the Immigration Service had in tracking down and dealing with immigration fraud?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220af3b68f0c49404eab5f1c35306be6f5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is, as I said, a big issue. However, we are making some progress. For example, last year the number of charges laid and successful prosecutions was up significantly on the year before, and already this year the number of successful prosecutions has exceeded those for the whole of last year. The message going out to the crooks and the fraudsters is that this Government takes immigration fraud seriously, and that the behaviour will not be tolerated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd8ac8aee3a34a5e9c053c6cfe2e8536\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What steps has the Minister taken to ensure that international students have not been able to come here on a false passport and further abuse our laws by using fake identification in New Zealand; and has he been advised of that occurrence, as outlined in the newspaper by his colleague Lianne Dalziel, who appears on page 2 talking about crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a9a830a58454d488515af5403d04a94\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I was not particularly aware that Lianne Dalziel was on page 2, but I am sure\u2014[Interruption] Was she on page 3? If there is a photo, I am sure it is a very nice photo. Probably the member was saying good sense, as she always does. However, the idea of fraudulent documents is a problem. The new advance warning systems will help, but the fact is that fraud is not just an issue for New Zealand\u2014it is about a $24 billion industry internationally. We are doing a lot about it. We are putting more money into it and having more success as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002287905c5108574c05beadea98dda2df13\u0022\u003EEducation Service\u2014Remuneration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022861d673a835a4c7b8187fd82da44c826\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of State Services: Who is responsible for the remuneration packages of chief executives in the education service, and does this responsibility include approving entitlements to golden handshakes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229b4b9212fd744e1ab35f25fd7b87c44f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b4b9212fd744e1ab35f25fd7b87c44f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E In the education service the governing body of each agency is the employer of the chief executive. Councils of tertiary education institutions are required under the State Sector Act to obtain the concurrence of the State Services Commissioner to the proposed terms and conditions of employment for the chief executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722904bc040647d0b4a492a74d9cefe5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, speak up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284409ae44ae941f0953d06ebc238761a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can hear perfectly well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022356d4a3ac3d14f86b1a276565d49ed92\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: That is the member who gets bounced all over the place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3e19e8fede426f8c318b3d927196b0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please continue with the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225664fe66fa64435781c9135717416533\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: For schools and kindergartens the commissioner is responsible for negotiating the terms and conditions of employment, but has delegated those to the Secretary for Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f34619f7d899438b908860aa180341ae\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I fully accept that, as close as you are to the Minister, you can no doubt hear. I have my speaker set on high\u2014I can hear mumbling, but I cannot discern or understand what it is he is saying, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295acb42718924d49aaa9571931c57548\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member has made a fair point. I ask the Minister to speak into the microphone and to repeat his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd1e0787522f4584af795429273877b6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Once an individual agreement is signed by the employing council, it is responsible for managing the employment relationship. That includes, for example, exercising the termination provisions in case of sickness, redundancy, or misconduct. I am advised that non-contractual ex gratia payments are the prerogative of the institution concerned and do not, under the current legislation, require concurrence. That is why, in my opinion, an unfortunate payment was made to the former vice-chancellor of Lincoln University.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd72d8bae5548599a13572f6557d381\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What kind of Government policy is it that says the Government is opposed to golden handshakes being paid, that it approves contracts to make sure golden handshakes are not being paid, but that it is OK if the governing body of Lincoln University then decides to pay one\u2014as long as they do not ask?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5c4773875824725af9269c6e4feae6f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think they were kind enough to inform that they had, and received my displeasure at that time, and publicly since. I think the effect for Government representatives on councils that defy Government policy will be clear when they come up for renewal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e49f287d56be41769a5a44803d83bd1b\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister taken action to ensure that when contracts are drawn up for vice-chancellors of universities, there is no possibility that golden handshakes can be paid; and where it has occurred in contravention of Government policy, has he done any more than just look a little bit displeased about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7fc58fa5d2b4caa80c434b36b8561fa\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think that if one discusses the matter with people like the chancellor of the university, one will know that looking a little displeased is not my reaction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff9842ca3e043e58d2b97ad6ee4f8fa\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister know when he approved the contract that universities were legally able to make ex gratia payments; and did he allow for that possibility because he realised that his own policy was probably impractical?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4f4951713ef49dbae6206cf7af224fb\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have never approved a vice-chancellor\u2019s contract. That would be an absolute breach of the State Sector Act. I should say that for a former Minister to allege that, shows his ignorance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230e6f6a5d5ee4792baf73bc2c31b8460\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister intend to change the legislation in order that it expresses Government policy that no golden handshakes be paid, or is he just going to allow this practice to continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234672e94fd344d0788bb115562018e5d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: One of the problems of having institutions with some autonomy is that they are left with autonomy to do things outside contractual arrangements. This is exactly what happened at Lincoln, and this case has drawn to the attention of the Government the problem around the width of the contracts. I do want to consider whether it is appropriate to remove their autonomy in these matters, but I should say that it would be a finely balanced decision and there would be many people in the House who would not think that that was a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1cab87a32154a65ae53fc29066bd3f5\u0022\u003EHome Invasion\u2014111 Call\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea41b78a3e644a39b5e92cec94c51de\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Will he stake his ministerial reputation on the accuracy of reported police statements that they handled the Bentley home invasion 111 call in \u201Ctextbook\u201D fashion, and that \u201CThis is one of the times we should be patting ourselves on the back and saying well done,\u201D; if not, does he consider the Prime Minister should keep him in office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00223e0c6bbc5ad94078a9c120b73d99f2a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e0c6bbc5ad94078a9c120b73d99f2a9\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E No. As I told the House yesterday, I take responsibility for policy issues and the Commissioner of Police has responsibility for operational issues. This case is one that will be looked at in the review of the communications centres. As a hard-working and conscientious Minister, I expect to be in office for some time to come, and I believe the party that Mr Ryall belongs to will be in Opposition for a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b98cabf8044b37a1153632ed72c16a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The only point to this point of order is to put on record Mr Power\u2019s comment that the Commissioner of Police should resign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250fb5e38d1c847f39076ded05ce045d6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8ed6d707a8a481a8ebaf03933c170ff\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What action, if any, will he take as Minister of Police, in light of the so-called textbook procedure in the Bentley 111 home invasion, when it is now reported that the emergency services were not advised that firearms were involved, that a lone police officer from Rotorua apparently had to backtrack in order to arm himself as the incident was upgraded, and that another police officer got lost; and in which textbook is that approach recommended?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221985533b85c54590be5e6355c8256d4c\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I would tell the member that this is one of the cases that will be looked at in the review of the communications centres. I think that relying on newspaper reports is not always very good. I do not believe every newspaper reporter gets right all that he or she tells.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200af160a05854cac93fd57d042ae1018\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What effect has this Government\u2019s policies had on police performance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d60fa6eae438407fa3d60b4b9b9fdaac\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Under this Government the police are doing better than they ever have. The crime rate is at its lowest for decades, crime resolution rates are at their highest, road deaths for the last month are at the lowest level since records have been taken, police budgets are at the highest level they have ever been at, and police numbers have never been higher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022789357eae44449bdbb947c87bdba4b91\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any failure over which he thinks it would be appropriate to resign, or does he think he should be the Minister, no matter what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeb1b003e7364a55aca8285dea387122\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the police are doing a good job. As Minister, I have nothing to say other than that they are doing very well, and there is no need for me to consider any other action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d5221373e24365894ea14f36c0cc57\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If the inquiry into the police 111 system shows a need for increased staffing, training, or other resources, will the Minister accept that he has failed in his basic responsibility as Minister, which is to ensure the resources are provided for a safe 111 system in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acdb1e311b364868af1081a4e8e3adcb\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: First, I must say the communications centre operation was brought in by the previous Government. We have continued to make improvements to it, and we will continue to make improvements if the review states that that is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022117caf1117744440bbf32cc1ae849bc1\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was a very clear question, and it was not answered. Will the Minister accept responsibility and resign in the case of the 111 review requiring additional resources, staffing, or training? He did not answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022381fa8af61aa4c578bdd7cd5303b259d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is one word that can answer that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64559db359f45eba318545310caa107\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ea079c9fdc0474fbd9f755be127c4e6\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229662fd01945c42ad9f3abb541d84238a\u0022\u003EFinance and Expenditure Committee\u2014Inquiry into FraudulentInvestment Schemes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223086191e22f144bfae2e136fda954e35\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee: What witnesses have appeared in the committee\u2019s \u201CInquiry into the revenue effects of fraudulent investment schemes\u201D, and on what dates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00223d120b032cb2404ba05e49a634269e47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d120b032cb2404ba05e49a634269e47\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E The previous Finance and Expenditure Committee heard evidence from the Securities Commission and the Serious Fraud Office on 15 May 2002, from the Securities Commission and the Commerce Commission on 22 May 2002, and from the Serious Fraud Office on 29 May 2002. The current Finance and Expenditure Committee heard evidence from Mr David Henderson on 11 December 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7bcd0fed73e442589ccaea77c5e8ec2\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has the committee given any thought to inviting John Tamihere along as a witness, given his expression as being a tax expert in his book Black and White; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931fa2b13bf04eb18ce395ac2f784314\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: No, we have not. That would be a matter for the committee. I simply ask this of the member: why does he not open his books and tell us what he received in Fiji, in the scam?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022783648a2bb6a49848eff1f38a89b4ec9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b50d6ae5642486fbfd6356b7d1e2242\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the committee propose to call Rodney Hide as an expert witness, in particular in respect of his international experience?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ed9187a1baf4991a6984f7d0bce3f34\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member may answer only in so far as the question relates to the actual job of the chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250bc217e9147480bbbc4cf76adde4e08\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: No As I am sure the member will know, the committee is prevented under Standing Order 199 from inquiring into allegations concerning identifiable individuals. However, the committee has received compelling evidence in respect of Mr Hide\u2019s participation in a Fiji scam conference, including an affidavit. As to the interpretation of that evidence, that is a matter for the committee to determine, taking account of the appropriate Standing Order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c58bb7f5dc3e41e3b41d4a9138c45be5\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0cfa15c96a048cb9d53612188a5b5f2\u0022\u003EMinisterial Resignation\u2014Member for Tamaki Makaurau\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00226d32c8b0882447d1be1529be591f8836\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d32c8b0882447d1be1529be591f8836\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received letters from the Leader of the Opposition and Mr Rodney Hide seeking to debate under Standing Order 373 the resignation of John Tamihere. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility. I did permit an urgent debate on 19 October when Mr Tamihere stood down from his ministerial portfolios and an inquiry was set up. I have therefore had to consider very carefully whether a further debate on this matter is justified given that recent debate having been held, particularly as not every ministerial resignation leads to an urgent debate being accepted. I have decided to err on the side of allowing this debate, given the interest in the matter, but I point out that the fact that two urgent debates have now been allowed on it will weigh very heavily in the balance with any future application on this subject. The Leader of the Opposition\u2019s application was the first one I received, and therefore I call on him to move the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022 data-id=\u002275e4ff3eb89d403aa1ac8b9b1156e19e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275e4ff3eb89d403aa1ac8b9b1156e19e\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance. Finally it has happened. John Tamihere has walked the plank. But the decision should not have been Mr Tamihere\u2019s. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d322b627b589457093de5674d59b5bdb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There has been far too much interjection in the first minute or two of this debate. This is a serious matter that the House is debating and I want it to be heard in relative silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192fa82759294e2fb09de95f73a141d8\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH\u003C/span\u003E: The decision should not have been Mr Tamihere\u2019s. The Prime Minister acted on other occasions. On this occasion she abdicated her responsibilities and has shown she is prepared to adopt a double ministerial standard. It is nothing short of an outrage that the Prime Minister has left it open to Mr Tamihere to return to Cabinet. She is trying to have a dollar each way by trying not to upset urban M\u0101ori or the right-wing faction of her own caucus. This is deal-making on an extraordinary scale, but we all know why. She is playing for time. She desperately needed, and still needs, Mr Tamihere\u2019s loyalty. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4fa9fcfc7a34b05b2bc6f4937653d6e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have now had enough. The rest of the speech will be heard in relative silence. I am not having any more interjections, particularly as a lot of them have been in the second person. The member is only lengthening the time that it takes, because of course the point of order does not come out of his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c45e701044da4398a0c3d1ba96df82d6\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister needs Mr Tamihere to convince the public they have nothing to fear from the secret deals being done with M\u0101ori to hand over ownership of beaches and lakes. She needs him to woo the hard-working urban New Zealanders whom her PC Government has been offending over the last 5 years. She needed him to keep an increasingly angry M\u0101ori caucus onside. But most important, she needed him not to call a by-election and upset her tenuous grip on power. So instead of sacking John Tamihere immediately, as she did Lianne Dalziel, she allowed him to stay on full pay because it suited her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister made much of the fact in answering questions earlier today that there were some matters that needed to be sorted out and debated in an inquiry. She referred to the Douglas White inquiry. But on one thing there is no debate. There is no question, it is not in contention, that Mr Tamihere did accept a golden handshake, having said that he would not accept one. That is not in debate; it is clearly understood. She should have sacked Mr Tamihere immediately, as she did Lianne Dalziel, but she allowed him to stay on full pay until today, when he resigned. It was a cynical stalling for time while Labour\u2019s pollsters judged the mood of the public. I could have told her 3 weeks ago that the public do not like it when Ministers tell them one thing and secretly do another. They do not like it when the Prime Minister is prepared to tolerate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226665ed7ce36d46aba5fd07f4660e8d07\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that when Mr Speaker was in the Chair he asked that this debate be heard in silence. He did say \u201Cthe rest of the service\u201D but I think he meant speech, not funeral service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b19532b448b45ba8dd48e78c84b0d43\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to allow that to happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255c1746aaa904f6faf946783e7e7f710\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. The member will be seated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f309a9c08af42a38cb0246d91a71531\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I have not finished my point of order. The substance of my point is whether the silence applies to members of the member\u2019s own party interjecting to give him assistance during this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022200a8328063d470fad9f0af49a6c839f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not accept that. I just say to members that frivolous interjections and points of order designed to break up speeches are out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0d4ded829d44e70894ad7701f157073\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH\u003C/span\u003E: The public do not like it when Ministers say one thing and do another. They do not like it when the Prime Minister is prepared to tolerate double standards. They do not like it when a Minister takes a golden handshake and calls it koha. And they do not like it when the Minister accepting koha is the very person the Government has trotted out to try to con the public into believing that this Government has changed its attitude towards M\u0101ori issues. This is the same Minister who is trying to con the public into believing there is no double standard applying to M\u0101ori in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThis whole episode has made a total mockery of the Government\u2019s hollow promises to end the so-called \u201Cculture of extravagance\u201D, and has made the pledge to put a stop to golden handshakes look totally farcical. This is a tired Government. The Prime Minister lies awake at night, counting\u2014not sheep, but Labour\u2019s votes in the House. It is not hard to see why the Prime Minister took no action. She needed John Tamihere\u2019s vote in the House for this Government to survive. She has been forced to take the pressure because she needs Mr Tamihere\u2019s vote. She had to make a deal because the Government\u2019s majority is at stake; so is the Government\u2019s vote on the seabed and foreshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E There is more to it than this. John Tamihere has already opened his books to the Prime Minister. Why did she not find anything? Was she looking the other way? Was she following the same policy that she adopted during the earlier inquiry into the Waipareira Trust? That found nothing. Was that because of the narrow terms of reference, or was the Prime Minister again looking the other way? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EBut let us contrast this affair with the treatment Helen Clark meted out to Marian Hobbs and Phillida Bunkle. Both lost their warrants and their ministerial pay while investigations into their electoral enrolments and their out-of-town allowances were carried out. Once Marian Hobbs was cleared she was allowed back. But Mr Tamihere will not be cleared. He is guilty of taking a golden handshake that he said he would not take. There is debate about his tax affairs and debate about electoral expenses, and that has been explained today in the House, but there is no debate about the fact that he took a substantial golden handshake after he said he would not take it. There is no doubt about that issue at all. Although he called it koha, and although he said it would be insensitive to refuse it, what sort of PC nonsense is that from a man whom Labour puts up as a good Kiwi bloke? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EHow does Lianne Dalziel feel about all this? She is not saying much because she is doing a deal with the Prime Minister also. She has served her time on the outer and the rumours are that she will soon be back. Helen Clark counts on us all having very short memories. She is counting on us particularly forgetting the things that she said when she was in Opposition. Let us just remind ourselves of some of the things she said. First: \u201CWe are calling for higher standards of ministerial accountability and behaviour.\u201D Another quote: \u201C\u2018Responsible\u2019 I interpret as being morally accountable for one\u2019s actions.\u201D \u201CIt is better to be told the truth before the election than after it.\u201D, said Helen Clark. She said: \u201CI want Labour in Government to usher in a new era of political accountability and responsibility.\u201D \u201CI want honesty\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f22e2029dcd495994c9f2966e714616\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I could not quite hear\u2014was that the bell or was it an alarm clock going off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246bb1b18b43046c08554578abbc9f73d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has been here a long time and he knows that that is a frivolous interjection. He also knows that that sort of thing leads to disorder. What I want is what everyone in this House wants, and that is order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3adc7d280ba416caabfd4ddadc8665c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. So what are you going to do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bcc03face91476b98683a6d0cfc95d5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have cautioned the member. He has his first yellow card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220be200735e0e4f1ebe272abde3ca3699\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The very good speech from the Leader of the Opposition has been interrupted twice\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9f38c151e3047e7bb02a423a4f4cd33\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We have a point of order, and that is to be heard in silence\u2014Standing Order 84(3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022777382dda2504867902f5029a5fd4010\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: He has been twice interrupted by what you yourself have ruled to be frivolous objections. Now if we are going to have that kind of conduct in the House, then National can play the game just as well. During the next speech by a Government speaker we will have a line-up of 27 of us who will all take a frivolous point of order, and you will do the same thing, and the House will be brought into disrepute. We simply ask that you take some action. It was absolutely blatantly obvious that the points of order from Mr Mallard and Mr Peters were totally out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254de60b9cac54f829b68173a41b9cf38\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Both members have been warned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d72610c72ad4471c80549e24a9600990\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256e6712febba46a3910654037f26d3bf\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. [Interruption] Someone will be going out very shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896c3aa950924c08bfaaae98bb890b8c\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH\u003C/span\u003E: I was quoting some of the comments that Helen Clark made when she was in Opposition. She said: \u201CI want Labour in Government to usher in a new era of political accountability and responsibility.\u201D \u201CI want honesty in politics. I want politicians to say what they mean and mean what they say.\u201D She said: \u201CThere will be a new era of moderation, frugality, and integrity in the public sector. We don\u2019t ask for a blank cheque from the public, we are making commitments on which we will deliver. We are accountable to you.\u201D The public is demanding that the Prime Minister deliver on that accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister has failed to act, and she was prepared to accept a new low standard of ministerial behaviour. For the sake of political expediency the Prime Minister was prepared to leave it up to John Tamihere to resign rather than doing the right thing earlier than today. But even now the Prime Minister is prepared to offer him a secret deal that will allow him to return to Cabinet. So much for accountability. So much for integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EWhat has changed in the past 3 weeks? She has known about this payment, which the Minister denied receiving, for 3 weeks. Why did she allow him to sit on a ministerial salary of $4,000 a week over the last 3 weeks, and why is the door still open to him to come back? Sure, Mr Tamihere played his part in the defence by offering up the koha argument. Ms Clark\u2019s role has been no less damaging. Helen Clark has tolerated two standards of ministerial behaviour for cynical, electoral expediency. It is indeed a very sad day for this House and for New Zealand democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a03572c5d1b64932b88e77ee67ee2416\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a03572c5d1b64932b88e77ee67ee2416\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, that speech was not a leadership bid! I was looking for the fast-forward button, actually. The reports of the count in the American election were somewhat more exciting; I thank the Labour junior whip for continually forwarding them to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003ETruly, that speech was an embarrassment, and one scanned the Opposition ranks to see who looked the most embarrassed. Was it Bill English? At least Bill English would have put some energy into it. Was it John Key who looked the most embarrassed? John Key is thinking that if Don Brash can get the leadership of the National Party in 1 year, maybe he can do it in 2. I think he has hope. Was it Murray McCully who looked the most embarrassed? No one could see Murray McCully, because he was crouching behind with the knife.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf8d31af9ca42a4a7bff0c0b05ba4fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I note that this is a special debate on the resignation of John Tamihere as a Minister of the Crown. I have been listening to the somewhat boring speech from the Prime Minister for 2\u00BD minutes, and the subject has not been mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228745bae86d48417583b07748dd71bf15\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order and the member knows it. Please be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a4219b4bdcf452a982be46384c8a250\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The verdict on this side is to sack the speechwriter, but we also recommend considering sacking the Leader of the Opposition. We are so happy that this urgent debate was accepted today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EEarlier today I received a letter of resignation from John Tamihere, and I have advised the Governor-General to accept the resignation. Almost 3 weeks ago a process was put in place by me and the Acting Prime Minister, Dr Cullen, and I believe that that approach has been widely supported by all fair-minded people. That approach saw the Minister asked to stand aside from portfolios, and saw an inquiry set up to look at a wide range of allegations that had been made, so that we could get to the bottom of them. Fair-minded people accepted that as due process. In the meantime I, like fair-minded people\u2014and there are fair-minded people in many parts of this House, but not directly opposite\u2014suspended judgment on a range of allegations, because I like to know the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EI would expect Douglas White QC to report reasonably expeditiously, but I do know that the Serious Fraud Office tends to report in slower time. I say that not as a criticism of the Serious Fraud Office; it is important that it does its work properly and deliberately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228370681f298c41cea16579ff173b48a4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It took 18 months for McCully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9dae93b1a564d17888abef627108e87\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Eighteen months for one member was mentioned; another member of this House from an Opposition party is currently before the courts, where rather a long time was taken\u2014I will not dwell on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EIt has become clear to John Tamihere, as it is clear to any observer, that, obviously, if the Serious Fraud Office is to investigate a matter, then Mr White QC\u2019s report cannot settle the matter definitively. I might say that John Tamihere himself last Friday took the step of forwarding the Paragon Risk report to the Serious Fraud Office, and I commend him for that. Mr Tamihere\u2019s position is that he does not want to sit in limbo-land while a long process of inquiry goes on, because there is work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EAnd is there ever work to do! This Government has a very strong story to tell in M\u0101oridom\u2014a very strong story. I expect that Mr Tamihere, now released from ministerial duties, will be out there pointing out that when this Government came into office M\u0101ori unemployment was 18.8 percent, and in the June quarter this year it was 8.8 percent. That is a success, and he can take credit for that, being part of the Government, and that will be one of many reasons why he is out on the stump, campaigning for the return of a Labour Government. He will have many other things to say. Not only will he point to the fact that more than 40,000 more M\u0101ori are in work than when this Government came into office; he will point to the number of M\u0101ori succeeding in business. He will talk about 17 percent of our industry trainees being M\u0101ori\u2014getting back to the kaupapa of the M\u0101ori Battalion and the schemes put in place after the war. He will talk about language strategies, M\u0101ori Television, health initiatives, housing, success in education, the numbers of M\u0101ori in tertiary education, and the numbers coming into early childhood education. He has a great story to tell. Now that he is released from ministerial duties while those inquiries go on, he can go out and campaign fully for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EI have said that the course Mr Tamihere took today is a very honourable course. I repeat to the House what I told the media conference\u2014that I have always seen great potential in John Tamihere, and I continue to see great potential in John Tamihere. I know, because I worked with him as closely as with any colleague, how much hard work he put into those portfolios, how much energy he put in, and it is my hope that he will be able to contribute at ministerial level again. I am not making a new appointment to Cabinet at this time. There is an old saying: \u201CTo err is human, to forgive divine.\u201D Mr Tamihere is human. I am certainly not divine, but I believe that, notwithstanding that he is human, he has a big contribution to make to New Zealand politics, and he will continue to make that contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EIn Mr Tamihere\u2019s statement today he said he had accepted an ex gratia payment although he had said he would not. He said he regretted not advising me of that, and, as I have told the House today, I regret that, too, because my advice would have been not to take that payment. Indeed, I can go further and say my requirement would have been not to take it, because I do believe in saying one thing before an election and saying the same thing afterwards. I accept the action he has taken today as an honourable one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EI would say that there is only one crowd that is disappointed by what has happened today\u2014and it is the Opposition. When those members sat in Government they had Ministers sit here and deny they had done anything wrong, at all. I am trying to think when I saw an honourable resignation from a Minister in a National Government. I am trying to think of such an example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b85c29154a7e41f2bab898f5b0234e6c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Winston.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b667272c3d84ea4a87f2d0a67fded31\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is true; I cannot remember whether he resigned or was sacked, but there was an issue of principle involved, and I acknowledge that Mr Peters, as Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, with Ka Awatea actually was endeavouring to do something for his people in that portfolio. I acknowledge that\u2014absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EBut I sat in this House and watched a Minister of Conservation in the National Government never take responsibility. I saw all sorts of allegations fly around about Ministers and flak-jacket contracts, and I saw no proper inquiries made and no one taking responsibility. I saw over three-quarters of a million dollars paid out to get rid of people from the Tourism Board because Mr McCully had fallen out with them. I never saw a resignation. We could go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EThe same party now wants an execution before an investigation has been made. The same party\u2019s deputy leader was found by a court in this country to have used excessive and unnecessary force against a man\u2014a pensioner\u2014who said he had feared for his life. That deputy leader of the National Party was fined $8,500. Another member, still sitting on that front bench courtesy of Don Brash, was fined for contempt of court. So let us not have it said that there is no honour on this side of the House. There is a great deal of honour on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EEarlier today, in question time, Dr Brash asked me a question about Mr Tamihere, and he quoted from Mr Tamihere\u2019s book\u2014I am so pleased he stays awake at night reading it. He asked whether I had taken any notice of a part in the book where Mr Tamihere said: \u201COne thing I was good at was telling stories, some of them less than truthful.\u201D What Dr Brash did not tell the House was that this was something Mr Tamihere said of the time when he was 5 years old. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b6bf3dfaddd4b37860fe912107685d0\u0022\u003EGovernment Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220312d0d711ad420e91857769688b5241\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Five years old! Who of us wants to be convicted in our mid-40s, as Mr Tamihere is, of something we thought when we were 5 years old? That kind of pathetic bleating is what we are used to from that Opposition. I say that today Mr Tamihere acted with honour, and that I have sat, in the past, on Opposition benches and I have seen one Minister after another of a National Government act with dishonour. I rest my case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00229652f904fee44a00aefdb40f397c9b30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229652f904fee44a00aefdb40f397c9b30\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Sometimes in politics one makes a serious mistake and gets overconfident, and the ramifications last for a long, long time. Back in 1999 Mr Tamihere constructed a cardboard cut-out of myself, put Sellotape over the top of my mouth, and went around telling people that I would not debate with him\u2014even though he had never ever asked me to, at any point in time. I just want to quote from a newspaper article of 16 November 1999: \u201CA \u2018paper war\u2019 has erupted between Labour candidate John Tamihere and New Zealand First leader Winston Peters over their respective track records.\u201D John Tamihere is quoted as saying: \u201CHe [Peters] says he will meet me anywhere, anytime, but I can\u2019t get him to come to the table.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWell, we have all seen the ramifications of that in the last few weeks, because what happened was that Mr Tamihere was challenging a member of Parliament in respect of his record, so we laid it out before the public and the media in 1999. What I do not understand is why it has taken 5 long years for it to become public knowledge. I just want to say to Helen Clark that in 1999 she was given all the warning a leader would need that something was amiss here. She was given all the notice a leader would need that something was wrong\u2014bearing in mind that we in New Zealand First all dramatically remember the attack she led against Tuku Morgan. She called it sleaze. She gave it every description possible. She said it was absolutely abominable that someone might walk out of his office at half-past 3 on a Friday afternoon, having been paid to do the job that he was doing, then spend his money on something that looked to be expensive\u2014even though it was his money. Even though a schoolteacher might leave school at half-past 3 on a Friday afternoon and go out to a restaurant, she still regarded that as being public property. Four full inquiries later into the affairs of Tuku Morgan and Aotearoa Television found nothing wrong, whatsoever. But that did not stop the mob in the press gallery from going on about it for 10 long months, and following Helen Clark\u2019s every word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EToday she gets up in this House and she uses the word \u201Chonour\u201D. Honour! The reality is that John Tamihere said, back in 1999 when he was challenged, that he would not take a golden handshake and that there was no car involved. Today we have his admission that those statements were false. How the Prime Minister can say now that she did not know is beyond me. It is simply beyond me. Her colleagues go to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee; there, a former lawyer for the Waipareira Trust outlined his concerns, where he is the star witness, of 32 cheques being forged, and, apparently, not one of her colleagues left that select committee and went and told her. Do members believe that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022696aaa09ec93439483a7ab0f929df037\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bd9d57f4bd74c1d8415ea0bf1274e31\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am having the greatest difficulty understanding how that information would not have been instantly relayed to the leader. But if we go back to the Tuku Morgan affair, who led the charge? Mr Mallard and Helen Clark\u2014day in, day out. And the media put in every darn word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f3c60e585d493b9045070ab8f3b80f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Why is Tuku chicken to go to court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022236b8499f11b4f5fbb8ea0163102fb4f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: About what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d0c7946543476988e3e405cac1eade\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He is suing me, but he won\u2019t go to court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e00335c873b1404aaeee80fb87165f5c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe he cannot afford it. But if I were in that case, I would be going to court with that member, because he falsely used a tape-recording, and he knows it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a5159a8eeb48d682c903d944e31646\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228cffa91bc7f4bbf9670229e0d63100f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He took a tape-recording and misused it, and that would be tampering with evidence. That is what Mr Mallard did, and he knows that is true. But, more important, all those allegations were made by that member, but four full-scale inquiries\u2014the commerce department, the Companies Office, the Serious Fraud Office, and one other\u2014found nothing. But the mob was out. Some might call it just being plain anti-M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee327c4b121d4195be827561a50c9f5d\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014there is a woman scorned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6f61c0c3c49484cbb87e661ce0d3780\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014I remember that attack. And today we are asked to accept that all is above board, and this is a matter of honour. Well, there is no honour in it, whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d248a9ee19244faeb1b158ffa4d65387\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a goner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240504ad2af04407c88db809898d414be\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, and we are getting h\u014Dh\u0101 about that koha, because it was not koha; it was $280,000, and there was a car involved. And there were, for example, loans involved\u2014loans written off. Here is what John Tamihere said about his house loan. When I accused him of getting a house loan and being charged 5 percent, when the current mortgage rate was 12.8 percent, he said he recalled getting a home loan from the trust in 1991 but could not remember the details. What lawyer cannot remember the details of his own house loan? What lawyer cannot remember those sorts of details?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EHere is the second matter. Members will remember that Mr Tamihere said, when he got up in the House, that he was not convicted of any crime such as forging and uttering. The reason for that was that he had confessed! Do members see the delicate use of words that might mislead people as to what the truth is? I am sad to say there is just too much of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EUp in the press gallery, of course, its members say that John Tamihere is a M\u0101ori leader. What they would know about M\u0101oridom is beyond me, but they keep on writing that. They say he is a M\u0101ori leader. They know nothing about M\u0101oridom. They know nothing about the standards that enduring M\u0101ori leadership requires. They know nothing about how M\u0101ori feel when they see that their money is going to someone who should not be getting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EA golden handshake of $280,000 is huge, and one cannot say: \u201CTake off the tax component.\u201D\u2014we all have to pay tax. But it was not just that; there was a four-wheel drive as well\u2014and if that is not good enough, there are plenty of other things as well. And here come the Labour Party and Mr Tamihere today, saying: \u201COh, it\u2019s a back payment for this and that and this and that over 10 years.\u201D Well, I am sorry but, as some people in this House know, I have always believed that this issue of the golden handshake would be his undoing\u2014as well as other things. Labour members can put any spin on it they like, but I am afraid it will not wash. I recall during the 1999 campaign the numerous times Helen Clark rose with her colleagues to criticise the golden handshake mentality. Oh, they were imperious then! Were they not as pure as the driven snow back then! But all of a sudden we know that there are different standards when they get into office and have power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ESo I am sad to say that M\u0101oridom has been let down again, and grievously so. They were told by the media that a new rising star had just risen in the east. That is what they were told\u2014or, in this case, the west.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022150a16e8cd934ef79dfed13e2554c7db\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: And the Three Wise Men were on their way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb99d0fa7a344d09aed4f1b27b0c16b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: And the Three Wise Men were on their way, but what was being borne as gifts did not necessarily amount to legal transfer of property, or things of value, or treasure. So, sadly, M\u0101oridom has been let down again, and I think the inevitable outcome, if the inquiry is properly performed, is that the Prime Minister will be seen to have acted very, very rashly, and to have ignored facts and warnings that she must have had for years. It is sad, but she has acted rashly on this matter. She has been caught and hoist by her own words in respect of these issues, and there is no honour involved, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u00221b0349adb9e2499dbd9328e8da337821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b0349adb9e2499dbd9328e8da337821\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E During the last urgent debate on John Tamihere on 19 October I said that whatever the outcome of the formal investigation, Mr Tamihere has to live with having made a categorical public statement that he would not accept a golden handshake before the election, and then proceeding to accept one after the election. I went on to say that ultimately he would be judged on the morality rather than the legality of his behaviour, and that he should reflect on that as he made a political decision about his future. Mr Tamihere has reflected, and I believe he has taken the honourable course of action. But he has taken it at least 2 weeks too late to rescue his political career. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EAs I also said during that last urgent debate, John Tamihere has been a role model to many people, both M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101. He has let them down, he has let himself down, and, clearly, we now know that he has let down the Prime Minister. He should not have taken that payment. He should have consulted with the Prime Minister at the time\u2014as we were clearly told today, she would have advised him not to take that payment\u2014and in the last 2 weeks he should not have disguised through various ruses the fact that the part of the payment that does not connect in any way with particular expenses, salaries, or bonuses was, in fact, a golden handshake. I believe he will now be judged harshly for his belated honesty, and he has to live with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI do not want to prolong Mr Tamihere\u2019s agony any further, except to say that whatever the outcome of the formal investigation I still think it is unacceptable for a member of Parliament to channel his or her election expenses through an organisation that he or she has worked for, especially one that is significantly Government-funded and exists to help those who are very much the disadvantaged and poor in our community. I know that I would have found it immoral and unacceptable to do that myself when I was working at Trade Aid, which is in many respects a similar organisation to the Waipareira Trust, in that it relies on a degree of Government funding and also exists primarily to help those who are in the greatest need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15b357aa22147118328500e1deb493e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Like the Green superannuation fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df04caa6b5f84b6a8277e2d83080b56e\u0022\u003EROD DONALD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Green superannuation fund is a totally separate matter, but I am happy to talk about it at any time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIn fact, now that Mr Peters has interrupted me, I will move to the second to last point I was going to make. Mr Richard Prebble, on 16 October last year, in his vociferous speech opposing the Members of Parliament (Pecuniary Interests) Bill, which will, in the interests of public accountably and transparency, require all non-Ministers to make similar declarations to those that Ministers make, said: \u201CIt is over to those who are promoting this bill to show why members of Parliament should make those declarations.\u201D I think that today we have a very clear demonstration of why all members of Parliament should make those declarations. [Interruption] It was before he was a Minister, I say to Mr Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0afb85ffc104d8eba2f187cc736f75a\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Why would it make a difference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df6f24fdbb434955a324c444e50cb741\u0022\u003EROD DONALD\u003C/span\u003E: Because he should have made the declaration, before he became a Minister, that he had received that golden handshake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIn closing, I say that this is a very sad day for this Parliament, because our word is meant to be our honour and one of our members has admitted that he has not kept to his word. It is a very sad day for the Government, because it has waited 2 weeks for Mr Tamihere to do the honourable thing, which he should have done on at least 19 October, and I would suggest some time prior to that\u2014perhaps as far back as when Mr Winston Peters first raised the issue. Ultimately, it is a very sad day for John Tamihere, because I think this marks the end of his political career.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf9fefd26be14a17bc83a1291af20b76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf9fefd26be14a17bc83a1291af20b76\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E What a difference a day makes to Helen Clark! Do members remember what occurred yesterday in the House? How many times did Helen Clark get up and say the Government was going to have due process and would not make a decision until all the facts were in? She was not going to decide anything, she said, until she had consulted with senior people, and until the Doug White report came in. And then what happened? Helen Clark had a day from hell, answering questions about John Tamihere. She put distance between herself and him, and the next day she accepted his resignation. She did not have to accept his resignation. What about due process? What about getting the facts in? What about the Doug White report? Helen Clark sacrificed John Tamihere; she accepted his resignation. She said very carefully that she had had nothing to do with his putting in his resignation, but we know that her people were talking to him. They told him that the deal was that if he resigned, sat quietly on the back bench like a good M\u0101ori Labour MP, and voted for the Foreshore and Seabed Bill he may be back as a Minister. We know one thing: John Tamihere will not be back. I do not believe that he can even stand as a candidate for the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet us see what Helen Clark has been saying. She called it honour; she called it setting standards. What do we know about Mr John Tamihere, thus far? I am not worried about what he did when he was 5; I am interested in what he did when he was 35. When John Tamihere was 35 he forged two signatures and then, as a lawyer, witnessed them as being accurate. Why? He did it to obtain $160,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money for a trust that he was running. There is no question about it. He turned up at the Auckland District Court, pleaded guilty to that, and then got a section 17 discharge and full name suppression. Bob Harvey and Dr Pita Sharples were there, saying what a great guy he was. Forgery and uttering did not matter. Helen Clark has told Parliament she knew about that in 1995, but it was OK to be a forger and an utterer and to be a candidate for the Labour Party and a Cabinet Minister. We can see why that is: because the Prime Minister forged a painting. I did not see her stand down while that matter was investigated, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ENow we know something else about the standards of the Labour Party. We know that it is OK for a member to say when campaigning that he is not going to take a golden handshake\u2014that he has been offered it, but that he is not going to take it\u2014to win support for that, and then, when elected, to rush around and knock on the back door of the Waipareira Trust to ask for the money. That is what happened. The Waipareira Trust, which receives taxpayers\u2019 money for the poor and downtrodden\u2014whom Labour members like David Cunliffe pretend they represent\u2014had to sell $115,000 worth of assets in order to pay John Tamihere his golden handshake. He took $195,000 and then said he had no idea that there may be some tax to pay on it. What is the tax going to be? It will be socked to the Waipareira Trust, too, and it will probably sink the trust. We know that the amount was $195,000 net and $320,000 gross. The difference has to be paid, plus the penalties and the interest, so we are looking at over $200,000 in tax. Does Labour care about that? No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThen we found out that John Tamihere was using the Waipareira Trust to pay for his campaign and did not put that on his electoral return. Why? If people had known that, they would have been appalled and outraged, so John Tamihere did not put on his electoral return the fact that the Waipareira Trust had spent $18,000 on getting him elected. He hid that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213b5684be6734a2c8013c87174d58cab\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That is required by law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aaaec041d8e4b9399f5913a5943368e\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: It is required by law, as Mr Peters called out. Indeed, I asked the Serious Fraud Office whether it would be fraud if there was a false electoral return, and David Bradshaw said it would be. How did that happen? What did Helen Clark say? She said it was OK; there were new standards, and it was a matter of honour\u2014\u201CTo err is human, to forgive divine.\u201D So Mr Tamihere is human and Helen Clark is divine, floating above us all and deciding on justice. We have learnt that it is OK to be a fraudster, OK to forge documents, OK to utter documents in order to obtain taxpayers\u2019 money, OK to tell the public one thing and do the other, OK not to pay one\u2019s tax, and OK not to fill in one\u2019s electoral return as required by the law. That is the standard this Government has set. I hope the public of New Zealand sees through Helen Clark and the falsities that she has put around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe have heard from John Tamihere. The Waipareira Trust did not just pay his electoral expenses; it paid for him while he campaigned for Labour. When he was questioned about that, what did he say? He said that someone had to pay his mortgage and feed his kids. That is the standard of Helen Clark: taxpayers\u2019 money went into the Waipareira Trust to help the poor and downtrodden, and that money was diverted into funding John Tamihere\u2019s campaign and paying him while he campaigned. John Tamihere knew that was wrong. How do we know that? We know that because he did not put it on his electoral return. It starts to add up. What did he come out with then? What did that great blokes\u2019 bloke, that red-blooded male, that non-PC M\u0101ori MP for the Labour Party\u2014the man who would not stand up for cultural excuses\u2014come up with as his excuse? He said it was koha. He said the Waipareira Trust had offered him the $195,000 as a cultural gift, and it would have been culturally offensive for him to turn it down. And Helen Clark finds nothing the matter with that! The truth is that John Tamihere was rattling every cage at the Waipareira Trust to get his $195,000. That is what we know. That man, who had pleaded guilty to forging and uttering, filled out his electoral return wrongly, took money that he said he would not take, and filled in his ministerial return as being nil. He was wandering around west Auckland with $195,000 in his pocket, and nothing to show for it. But Helen Clark says that that is OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EPeople have asked about the contrast between John Tamihere and Lianne Dalziel, who got the bullet immediately. The Prime Minister talked about standards. Standards mean that one does what is right, no matter what the consequences are. There is a big difference between Lianne Dalziel and John Tamihere: Helen Clark cannot afford a by-election in a M\u0101ori seat. As the leader of the Labour Party, she lost all the M\u0101ori seats once before, and she is about to lose them all again. So she has gone to John Tamihere and told him that if he behaves himself, is a good Labour MP, forgets about his M\u0101ori constituents, and thinks about the Labour Party, he will be all right. How can any party have as a candidate someone who does not pay taxes? How can any party have someone who said before the election that he or she would not do something, and who then did it? How can any party have a person who has pleaded guilty in a criminal court to a criminal charge of forgery and uttering? I am afraid those are the standards of Helen Clark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022154d10c74e2141f98e6cecc99e0aad24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022154d10c74e2141f98e6cecc99e0aad24\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E There is an old proverb that says \u201CO what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive\u201D. Today John Tamihere has become the latest victim of that proverb. It is certainly true, as events have unfolded over the last few weeks, that his position as a Minister of the Crown became increasingly untenable. I do not believe that the matters relating to the taxation treatment of the payment that he received were ultimately his downfall. I think that Mr Tamihere\u2019s downfall was brought about by his somewhat less than straightforward statements about whether he had received the payment in the first place\u2014a point that he acknowledged in his statement this afternoon. I think it is a sobering reminder to every single one of us in this House and to the wider community that when we are put into a position where strong questions are asked of us, we must give answers in a clear, an accurate, and a truthful way. People have seldom been hanged for what they do not do; they are frequently hanged for what they do. I think Mr Tamihere\u2019s situation was a case in point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMr Tamihere is not the only person to have woven a tangled web over this saga. When the House debated this matter 2 weeks ago, all the calls then were for Mr Tamihere\u2019s instant removal from office. The Douglas White inquiry was argued to be irrelevant, a sham, a cover-up, and an excuse simply to give the Government space. Now that Mr Tamihere has resigned, those same people say that because the process of the Douglas White inquiry has been put in train it should be allowed to run its course and make its recommendations and rulings. \u201CO what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think that the issue that arises from all that was touched on by one of the earlier speakers, and it relates to standards. Standards come at a number of levels. There are the standards of behaviour required of Ministers of the Crown in terms of their demeanour, their general behaviour, and the statutory declarations that they make regarding financial matters. It is arguable that Mr Tamihere failed on probably all those counts in the end. Then there are the standards that apply to all members of Parliament. For the life of me, I cannot see why we maintain a distinction between the two. I think that the pecuniary interests legislation that is before the Standing Orders Committee at the moment is entirely appropriate, and that these events have made it even more so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI will make the point that the history of New Zealand politics in the last 60 or 70 years is not littered with very many examples of ministerial resignations. When resignations have occurred it has either been because someone was at death\u2019s door or because an arm was twisted so strongly up someone\u2019s back that it became impossible to do otherwise. An ultimatum was delivered, as in the Derek Quigley case in 1982.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f27aacda1747a496937750eb808997\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It was held in the safe, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e62bbced8e384e39bc4b1104340e01bf\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: It may well have been held in the safe; it had the same impact as twisting an arm. The only three instances that I am aware of in which a Minister has genuinely resigned on what could be argued to be a matter of principle were Downie Stewart in 1933 over exchange rate policy, Apirana Ngata in 1934 over financial irregularities in the then Native Department\u2014both of which were accepted\u2014and Roger Douglas in 1987 or 1988 over the pre-leaking of some aspects of the Budget that year. His resignation was not accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2db36e912d426d9908c58484e8f05d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: They were left in the corridor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247c44203421c4ffc9b7abf89a5f94cd8\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not care where they were left. The point I am making\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022370af7ff57fb4894ba5449e33a5b7571\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That was a jack-up, as with Koro Wetere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af4b65b50fc842acbe7f297aea8146ab\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is missing the point. The point I am making is that there is not a very strong history in this country of Ministers accepting responsibility for their actions. In fact, Bob Semple\u2019s famous words over the Fordell dam collapse illustrated that: \u201CI am responsible but not to blame\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d987de89039495eaed0dcc0a6f4f889\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242df1ce42aad44979111f2b54af6b47b\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member whose area that was based in will know what I am referring to. I think that John Tamihere, by standing in the House this afternoon and making the statement that he has made\u2014whatever construction members choose to place upon it\u2014has shown a sense of honour. It was very courageous to come here in the midst of all the accusations that have been swirling around, face this Chamber, and make that statement in the way that he did. Members will have their own view about its content and context, but they cannot detract from the fact that in this instance John Tamihere did front up. That is a refreshing thing in this political environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e9093e83ca44fb485609ddfe878f824\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Two weeks late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022622cc0f3133a451aa3a8e0459d824794\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member says that it was 2 weeks late. Two weeks ago Mr Tamihere\u2019s opponents were saying that an inquiry would be a sham, that it should not be so limited, and that it should be a full commission of inquiry. Now, when John Tamihere has reacted by resigning, they say that it was 2 weeks late. They cannot have it both ways, and that is the point of this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhat has happened here is regrettable. It has certainly destroyed a man\u2019s career, and has cast a slur on this Parliament. It has created a situation whereby a lot of New Zealanders\u2014and I am sure the member who is seated opposite me will agree with what I am about to say\u2014who have started off with a prejudice anyway, will say yet again that when M\u0101ori are let near money they let us down. I think that is a reprehensible sentiment, but it is one that is being said and heard in the wake of this incident. That is something we all have to confront. I regret very much that Mr Tamihere\u2019s actions have placed us all, as a nation, in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhere do we go to from here? The Douglas White inquiry will presumably be completed, and will either confirm or contradict the statement that Mr Tamihere has made this afternoon. That will cause its own set of consequences. We do need to address the issue of standards, because already as this debate has unfolded, and in question time this afternoon and on other occasions, all sorts of allegations have swirled around about other members, about overseas commissions, and about trips to all sorts of faraway places\u2014that people were paid for performing duties. While we do not have clear sets of ethical guidelines and standards those allegations will continue to be made, and will continue to swirl unproven, to the detriment of the reputation of every single one of us. That is the first point that needs to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe second point is the one that I referred to a moment or two ago. We cannot continue in this country as a multi-ethnic culture that stresses its bicultural links if, in fact, we continue with the notion that putting M\u0101ori near money will cause unacceptable consequences. I put Mr Peters\u2019 earlier colleague Mr Morgan into the same category of that debate. We think of the Tainui corporate box saga, and of so many other things. The point I am making is that, unfortunately, for many people this incident will be seen as further proof of that notion. The real challenge for this House, and for the members who are parading unctuously here in favour of accountability, will be the extent to which they are now prepared to commit themselves to working towards better standards and dealing with that fundamental perception. In that situation John Tamihere is largely irrelevant. His circumstances mean that I think he is politically tarnished. But the message that arises from this matter cannot be lost sight of, because if we do that we will simply be condemned to repeat the saga at some point in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002277a7de73940b4d06a962832f484abd99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277a7de73940b4d06a962832f484abd99\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has just lost its second Minister in 6 months, for misleading the public. It is now time to ask what it is about the culture of the Labour Government that has meant that two of its rising stars, two of its more capable Ministers, have ended up losing their jobs. I say that it starts at the top. Even the way Helen Clark has handled this particular set of circumstances shows just how finely polished are the tools of deception in this Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe deception starts with small things, like Ministers completely ignoring the Official Information Act. A couple of weeks ago in this House, David Benson-Pope, a junior Minister, was shown to have completely breached the Official Information Act. He shamelessly got off, apparently because, according to Dr Cullen, of some synonym in the letter he wrote. That is just one example. I deal regularly with the two education Ministers. Do they answer parliamentary questions on time? Never\u2014not when it matters. Do they keep back information they should release? Every single time. Do they keep to the deadlines? Almost never. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt starts with Helen Clark. This is a Prime Minister of New Zealand who, in the course of an investigation over a forgery allegation, refused to answer questions that the police asked her. She just refused to answer them. This is someone who attacked me when I suggested that our New Zealand troops should come back from Afghanistan, when she had already decided to bring them back. She had already decided back in October 2002. She had decided 3 months before, but said on the public record what a disgraceful idea it was. That is Helen Clark. That is how John Tamihere has found her over these last few weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI read in the Trans-Tasman, which used to be a venerable commentator\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f284a7fb8fb542cfbc4a5dc1f6024dd1\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It used to be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022903ae78d67bf4512a4107041117df3ec\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014it used to be good\u2014on Parliament, about this Government\u2019s high ethical standards. There is only one ethical standard in this Government: do not get caught. That is why John Tamihere\u2019s resignation is without honour. He has known for 5 years that he took a golden handshake that he had said he would not take. He has known for that long. Actually, I believe the Prime Minister has known for that long. Why did that man resign today? Was it because he owned up? No. Was it because Helen Clark found out and did something? No. In fact, when she found out, she did nothing\u2014absolutely nothing. It was because he got caught. That is the only reason he resigned today. I challenge the next Government speaker to give any other reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIf this matter had not appeared in the media, would John Tamihere have resigned? No. He would still be collecting his ministerial salary, as he did up until today. He would still know he had taken a golden handshake, in the knowledge that the Government had campaigned vigorously against such golden handshakes. The only standard in this Government is to not get caught. Every time, Helen Clark will go as far as she can to get away with it. As Rodney Hide said, what a difference a day makes. What happened was not that John Tamihere came to his senses and decided his position was untenable\u2014that was evident to him, or should have been, the day it appeared in the media. What happened was that Helen Clark decided her position was untenable. She decided 3 weeks later that she could no longer get away with it. She had to cut and run. That is why he resigned today. If John Tamihere had any honour, he would have fronted up to the facts 3 weeks ago. If Helen Clark had any standards, she would have done exactly the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThere are broader issues involved in this than just compliance. I remember as the Minister of Health going to the Waipareira Trust. I remember talking to the people in the waiting room at the medical clinic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229593af1507f423194c467b2d776935e\u0022\u003EHon Jim Sutton\u003C/span\u003E: That made them all vote National!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c964cab1104ba7acc4776aa92cd498\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member should listen to this. Those people believed that the Waipareira Trust was there for them. They believed that the money the Government\u2014and as a Minister I was representing that Government\u2014was providing to the Waipareira Trust was to lift the health status of M\u0101ori. They believed that that money, used properly, would save lives that would otherwise be lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229047da56cfd64a8ab98b29bbf605feac\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: We know what the National Party does, don\u2019t we.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a5f2f881df487e94c9c73c5e26e613\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That is the problem with that Minister\u2014he does not understand the morality of this. Those people believed that something good was being done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI do not care whether John Tamihere accurately filled out his electorate expense return. What I do know is that he took public money to pay himself to campaign as a candidate. I see candidates at every election who have to resign their jobs and live off their savings, like I did, to get elected into Parliament. He took money that we gave to that trust to save children who have asthma, meningitis, and whooping cough. He took it. He took money off that trust, for a house and a car. It might be in a trust and might not have to be on his ministerial return, but he took it. He took not a few thousand dollars, but hundreds of thousands of dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat damages the confidence not just of M\u0101ori who supported John Tamihere, but of people like me who thought it all looked credible, and who believed the rhetoric about independence, enterprise, and self-reliance. That is what is so deeply dishonourable about what has happened. It is not just that he upset the Labour Party\u2019s political plan about golden handshakes; it is that if that party thinks that $89 on a set of underpants was a grievous thing, how much is it when one takes hundreds of thousands of dollars from the treatment of sick children and disadvantaged youth to line one\u2019s own pocket? Let Helen Clark tell us what is so honourable about that. Whether or not John Tamihere is now in Cabinet does not matter. What matters is whether he will be able to hold his head up and stand in this Parliament, knowing that hundreds of thousands of dollars meant for the most disadvantaged people in New Zealand, with the best intentions of everyone involved, went to lining his pocket. Mr Mallard should get up, because he made the most fuss about the $89 underpants. What do I hear? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party will never understand this, because it never thinks it can be wrong with public money. Really, it believes the money belongs to it. That is what Labour has dragged M\u0101oridom to, as well\u2014a whole culture of dependence and a moralism about public money. I do not think the Labour Party believes yet that a Labour Cabinet Minister could do wrong with public money. John Tamihere did. He has had to face the music. It was not honourable. Helen Clark has one standard: \u201CCan you get away with it?\u201D\u2014and this time, John Tamihere did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002275960fdbc1d84dbea3855ab42df15881\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275960fdbc1d84dbea3855ab42df15881\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E At least there was a bit of life in that speech, unlike the one that started off the debate from the Leader of the Opposition. Mr English was a bit like Joe Cocker\u2014at least, Joe Cocker alive\u2014whereas the Leader of the Opposition was like Frank Sinatra dead, as far as I could make out, in terms of that performance. It was like he was crooning away from the grave, as far as one could see. The real essence of what we have just been told is the really fascinating view of life that Tories always have: if one is working on behalf of the poor, one should be poor; if one is working on behalf of the rich, one should be rich. That, of course, is the motto Mr Rodney Hide lives by as he takes his outside payments\u2014as he is still taking\u2014in order to be a member of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis is a sad day. It is sad day for Mr Tamihere. He has been an able and energetic Minister who has represented a new wave of urban M\u0101ori in this House. He has represented their interests\u2014and their interests are not those of wanting to be dependent upon the State, as the member has just tried to argue, but of wishing to advance themselves. Mr Tamihere has represented those people throughout his career, both before he came to Parliament and while he has been in Parliament. Today he has engaged in an honourable action by standing down and no longer being a Minister. When did a member of the National Party ever do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022004c7035ef4b4ba7a07b8e0d528bb82f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Never!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb5314be23ea4a10841dd26ec730361d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No. It was once, but then the member stopped being a member of the National Party sometime after that. That was when Mr Peters left the National Party over his treatment as Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. But what else did we see? Did we ever see Mr Murray McCully, who was a kind of walking video of accusations and muck during his ministerial career, suggest that he should stand aside\u2014a man who was found, in fact, to have acted unwisely in terms of his relationships with the Tourism Board? No, not at all. There was Denis Marshall, who never resigned over the fact that people died because of incompetence within the Department of Conservation\u2014[Interruption] And what about the man who is now interjecting\u2014as I knew he would not be able to stop himself from doing\u2014who was found guilty of contempt of court, and proud of it, because the judge found he did not believe what Dr Smith told the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f5f030ff4e4f03ac9d715394b2f5f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211bcdda77bdb4163b94185c7486b8559\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. That is exactly what the judge said in the judgment\u2014that he did not find the statements made by the member credible. And what happened? He got advanced to the front bench, despite the fact that his 10 minutes as deputy leader of the party caused such extreme stress, depression, and exhaustion on his part that he had to take 3 weeks\u2019 paid break on full parliamentary salary. Being No. 2 to Don Brash in a bad year was too much for him to cope with. Then he came back, and now he sits on the front bench. He is the only one in this House who has been found guilty of contempt of court, as far as I can remember. It is the most serious offence I can remember a front-bench member in this House ever being found guilty of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022449f17b70ddc43628d7d1f5a7853558c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Proud of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5725d34fb864f1e88e38af61469100c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E\u2014and he is proud of it. He is proud that he tried to bully somebody by misleading that person about the nature of what Parliament was, and he thought it was clever to do that. He thought he was very clever, and he still sits there, grinning inanely away at this House. Well, we would not open up the books for Dr Smith, because all the books that Dr Smith has are pop-up ones. Little cardboard things come up from their middles if anyone tries to open them. That is about his level of understanding of life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhat about Mr Rodney Hide, that great exposer of things that go wrong in life? He is the man who went off to Fiji to tell people how to evade their taxes, the man who has been receiving payments from an outside businessman\u2014I suspect from an expatriate New Zealand businessman\u2014and he has been receiving those payments since he was an MP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278853b84bf2f40e780f129c68cb93a05\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9ac08006724dd0b3dabbbd50ecfdcd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I say to Mr Hide that we would like to know how much. He might like to tell us. But it is funny that he will not tell anybody whom he has been getting the money from, and how much it is. Why will he not tell us? Why will every member of the ACT party oppose the Members of Parliament (Pecuniary Interests) Bill? Why is every member of the ACT party saying that if that bill is passed, they will not disclose their personal interests to the House? Why will they not do that? They sit there and try to look all smarmy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing about this debate is that it has shifted away from the grounds of 3 weeks ago. At that time all the accusations were around tax, various payments, and whatever, but I have noticed that the more sensible members have pretty much avoided all those charges now, because they know that they will not fly\u2014that they will be found to be false. So what they are back to now is the fact that Mr Tamihere accepted an ex gratia payment\u2014something, of course, totally unknown to any of those members! I am sure that Mr Key got no such ex gratia payment when he left his position as a senior financial person for a major international financial organisation. I am sure he never got any sort of payment of that variety. But, of course, if he did, that is OK. Why? Because he is a rich man and he was working for an organisation on behalf of rich people. So it is perfectly all right to get a payment in those circumstances. Mr Tamihere\u2019s sin is that he took an ex gratia payment for doing well by the poor, and, from a National Party perspective, that is doubly unforgivable. He did good things for poor people and got rewarded financially for them. We can understand why the National Party and the ACT party regard that as such a heinous crime. Well, I look forward to the investigations. I look forward to Mr Douglas White, who is a highly distinguished QC\u2014even Mr Stephen Franks had to admit that to his highly non-distinguished non-QC, in legal terms\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c454a4734c248449ba2fa77bb66714e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why isn\u2019t there a commission of inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299bcd8f5be0244fb81400e07d622fd99\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the member want to have millions of dollars spent, and to spend on an inquiry more money than the amount of money the accusation was about? That is what the member is basically proposing. That is a classic National Party approach to the Government\u2019s finances, I have to say. Let us have thousands of lawyers at ten paces firing away in depositions, and all the rest of it\u2014all about what we are talking about in this particular respect! No, we are not going to have that. The Douglas White inquiry is around those issues that have been raised, and I am confident that Mr Tamihere has adequate explanations for all those charges that have been made. I say bluntly that I am certain that people will find he is not guilty in terms of non-payment of tax. I am quite certain about that, and I look forward to the inquiry being undertaken in that respect. Then we will have the inquiry undertaken by the Serious Fraud Office, at Mr Tamihere\u2019s request. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f41941bc0584983a9065017106dfc56\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ff43c4541642fba1b345d5061546de\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah right. That is what happened last Friday. Mr Tamihere has no reason to hide anything about the Waipareira Trust, but a few other people might get a bit worried around that over the coming few months as the investigation is undertaken by the Serious Fraud Office, and we look forward to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI state bluntly what I said to the media today: I hope that my friend John Tamihere is cleared by the inquiries, and I hope that when he is cleared, the way will be clear for him to return to Cabinet at some point in the future. Mr Hide will sit there on the Opposition benches getting grumpier and older as the years go by, and getting paid by his overseas mates\u2014expatriate New Zealand businessmen\u2014year by year. Dr Smith will continue to bleat away as he vaguely remembers he was once a Minister of the Crown but could not hack it as deputy leader of the National Party in Opposition. They will carry on there for year after year, and Mr Tamihere will do some good for the people he came here to represent. I look forward to that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222515b89869ba4015a50b864793676c50\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah. Take their money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243aa8cf648b648fe9f424147b68d4c7e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Dr Smith is taking a lot of money at the present time, from the taxpayer, and I do not see any value to the taxpayer coming out of the money he is being paid at the present time. At least the other parties manage to put up people who speak with some degree of conviction. Dr Smith could have spoken with a very high degree of conviction\u2014we all know that. At least the other parties do that, but what did Dr Brash do? I am still trying to work out whether he was sleepwalking, or whether he had anything to say that was new. I say that Mr Tamihere is worth ten Dr Smiths, any day of the week. I look forward to those inquiries and I recognise that he\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022140603062aa84c00a83b7840c40bb2d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he resigned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235dbc86c81c34ab099f857c11d5218c1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: He has resigned because that is the honourable thing to do while these accusations carry on, and so that he can defend himself. The question, \u201CWhy has he resigned?\u201D, is a Tory question, because no Tory ever resigned from anything. The pants have to be completely down around the ankles, the shirt pulled up around the shoulders, and the camera working away before any Tory would resign for anything in politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d30b68c2a474148863fa7479149e4fe\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c03724fd7b84d67811342145503117f\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022aef60c76b12540f0a0e01608c5adc384\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aef60c76b12540f0a0e01608c5adc384\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. It has been said that teams play as well as they have to, and it has also been said that Governments are only as good as their Oppositions oblige them to be. I sincerely hope for the sake of the people of New Zealand that that is not the case. I have every confidence that we can perform much better\u2014and we do perform much better\u2014as a Government than we are obliged to by the pathetic efforts of our Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E I want to look back over the year of Dr Don Brash, the Leader of the Opposition. He has had a busy and productive year. We would like to highlight Dr Brash\u2019s significant achievements in the areas of policy announcements. In January Dr Brash said this: \u201COver the next few months I plan to give a major speech in each of my five main priorities\u2014race relations, education, welfare dependency, security, and the economy\u201D\u2014at least he had those written down. That is the sort of speech that a retiring speechwriter might write: \u201COver the next 5 months I plan to give major speeches on each of my five main priorities. They are\u2014\u201D and then he looks at the next page and it reads: \u201CYou\u2019re on your own, you sod.\u201D , but in this case, they did not need to write it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EIn July Dr Brash said: \u201CThe thing\u201D\u2014we can see he had been thinking about it between January and July\u2014\u201Cyou\u2019ll see increasingly is major policies being rolled out.\u201D In September he said: \u201CThe likelihood is that we won\u2019t do any other major speeches on things like social welfare reform, education, and so on until the beginning of next year.\u201D Later on in September he said: \u201CWe\u2019ll hold fire until next year.\u201D In October, we hear this\u2014and he is backtracking, of course, following a series of bad polls for National\u2014\u201CIt is now reported that Dr Brash may bring forward a key speech on reforming welfare.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022824c6a560a324260b9cd5c4efb2bc56a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Stop reading it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246ee9ce3fb3d475e9513edd966227c4c\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am quoting. \u201CDespite deciding to hold fire on policy, Dr Brash announced National\u2019s policy on Kyoto a few weeks ago.\u201D Their policy, he said, would be to follow the United States and Australia. He said: \u201CI can\u2019t be more specific than that. What will determine it is whether we think there is any advantage in that, and at the moment that is still not firmly resolved.\u201D National\u2019s policy on the Kyoto Protocol is not the only one still not firmly resolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EOn the issue of New Zealand being nuclear-free, in April 1987 Dr Brash said this: \u201CI have always taken the view that there is not a great deal to be said for New Zealand being an active participant in a nuclear alliance.\u201D He was a nuclear-free warrior in those days. He told the Dominion Post that even when he was a National Party candidate, he favoured a ban on visits by nuclear warships. But by October 2003 he said this: \u201CWell, I have got some views on that issue but I won\u2019t tell you about them at this point because Wyatt Creech is doing a report on that issue, and it is due out. So until it comes out I think I\u2019ll hold my counsel.\u201D Well, talk about decisive leadership! The presenter asked him: \u201CSo you think that is what Bill English should have done?\u201D. Dr Brash said: \u201CErr, well, let\u2019s say he got himself into some trouble by adding a degree of confusion about the National Party\u2019s policy. I think he was probably unwise to have expressed views on that.\u201D By January 2004 Dr Brash is still undecided, but much more decisively undecided than previously. He said: \u201CIf the report suggests that we should change our position, we will look at it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7a02a5b69e24464b59225a936ace78e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7a02a5b69e24464b59225a936ace78e\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E This afternoon a wake-up call was tabled in the House, and 10 years from now, when people have forgotten \u201CJohn Who? Resigned when? About what?\u201D, and they have forgotten the misdemeanours of \u201CWhat was that name of the leader of the National Party back in 2004?\u201D, they will, however, still be coping with the consequences of the fact that the underpinnings of our prosperity from farming in this country are seriously at risk. The report tabled this afternoon from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment states that our farming is currently unsustainable, that our prosperity, our standard of living, depends on farming, and that farming cannot continue to go on the way it is at the moment, without major change. I would suggest that that issue ought to be occupying rather more of the attention of the House than it is getting today. If farming is to be become sustainable it must be rethought on the basis of ecological systems, not just on the basis of short-term economics. It cannot be economic if it is destroying its resource base, and if it destroying the natural capital on which our future depends. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ECurrent farming practices are degrading water quality, they are overusing water quantity, they are losing soil into the sea at a 10-times faster rate than the rest of the world, and dependence on non-renewable energy is growing by the year, they are a major source of greenhouse gases, and they are changing the very climate on which our farming depends. There has got to be change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe all know that lakes Rotorua and Taup\u014D are seriously degenerating, with algal blooms in some places and water quality that is unfit for human contact. We have a report from the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research Ltd that our lowland streams are, on the whole, not fit to swim in any longer. Fish and Game New Zealand has been carrying out a campaign on dirty dairying, because of the impacts of the dairy industry on lowland water quality. The reason for all of this is agricultural runoff, particularly of nitrogen and phosphorus. We know there is a 40-year delay from when this is applied to the land, before it even gets into Lake Taup\u014D, so it will get worse even if we stop applying fertiliser. And we learn in this report tabled today that nitrogen fertiliser has increased by 160 percent across our farming system in just 6 years. We need radical action now, and even then things will get worse long before they can get better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe area that is reliant on irrigation has been expanding at 55 percent every decade. That takes more energy to pump the irrigation water; that leaves less water in our rivers to dilute the runoff when it comes, and fosters more intensive agriculture with more runoff, and our aquifers are falling. The direct use of energy on farms has gone up 30 percent in the last decade, and we can add to that that our fertilisers and pesticides are wholly reliant on non-renewable fossil fuels. We can add to that the dependence on oil-based transport to get our farm products to market. Oil is now $55 a barrel, and that will keep rising. There is no going back to $19 a barrel, or even $30 a barrel, because we have got to the stage where the world\u2019s oilfields cannot produce very much more than what they are producing now, and demand is still rising. The greenhouse gases from farming are up 15 percent since 1990, and that cannot keep growing, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThis is not an indictment of the present-day farmers, or of the present-day Minister, or of the present Government, any more than it is of the farmers, the Government, and Ministers of the past. It has been going on for decades, but it is a challenge to present-day farmers, and the Minister and the Government. In question time today the Minister acknowledged the issue, but did he pick up the challenge? He is a bit short on solutions so far. He said: \u201CThe sustainable farming fund is addressing these issues.\u201D The sustainable farming fund has spent $33 million over 4 years on some good initiatives, but it is a drop in the bucket compared with what is needed to turn our farming in a sustainable direction. We need more science invested in sustainable land management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u00227cab671e640a44c98492f3a763f1eb6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cab671e640a44c98492f3a763f1eb6d\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E In my short term in Parliament it seems to me that October is an amazing month for parties. Twelve months ago National had a clear choice: a young man with a future to lead the party, or an elderly man to take them back to the 1990s. They took the latter course, to move back to the 1990s. If we watch the Leader of the Opposition move around the country, he is recruiting 1990s men to advocate 1990s policies to further drive the knife into the poor and dispossessed of this country. And that is the irony of today\u2019s debate. It is a year later that the Hon John Tamihere, whose commitment to working for the underprivileged, the marginalised, and the disadvantaged, at huge personal expense, has been demonstrated by the manner in which he has been excoriated by flippant, right-wing individuals of this House. It is easy to make slurs under privilege, it is easy to make accusations under privilege, it is easy to rake through the coals of someone\u2019s past and raise matters that are half-truths, but it is much harder to come up with real substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe real pity about that, of course, is that at a time when this country might need some leadership the House lowers itself to the level of the worst members of the Opposition. I do not want to go into that behaviour. I do not want to go into the flip-flops of the man who helped others down the stairs and paid the court $8,500 for the privilege. I do not want to go into the story of the man who could not tell the truth under oath\u2014at least that is what the High Court judge understood it to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7078e36c8c0424b82dde618bda2eed4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: No, he didn\u2019t say that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9660e01a83f491c95f083abe716b935\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: He disbelieved his evidence on oath, which is the same as not telling the truth on oath. I did not mention that man but he spoke up in response, so clearly it touched a key point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EIn the last 12 months we have seen a history of uninformed comments, of not understanding what is really happening in this country, of trying to grab headlines on the back of people who try to do well in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276265e76b5b444e8b7fb63c3fce3e056\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Didn\u2019t this man defend a child murderer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc73049eadb14c979d78b6bcb449887c\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Ron Mark would have to understand that people who are accused of crimes are entitled to a good defence. I would have thought he would be the last person to throw any stones in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003ELook at the current issue before this country, which is the attack upon the Parliament by the Chief Justice, and members opposite make no comment or raise no issue in the House on what really is a major constitutional issue. Our Chief Justice claims not to have thought she would be reported at an international conference, and makes a criticism of the Prime Minister over issues apparently about the Budget. That is an issue that Parliament should debate. It is an issue that has been ignored in this House over the last week, as people hunt around for scandals to ride to achieve 5 minutes of notoriety and perhaps a little bit of fame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EInterestingly, those who throw mud pay the price. We need to look at the polls. Who is the person throwing the mud? It is the leader of the \u201C1 percent party\u201D. Who are they throwing the mud at? At the person who has 86 percent support in this country\u2014John Tamihere. Every poll indicates that he is a man who has achieved something, a man with a future, and a man who deserves a fair go. These people who throw mud in this House, the \u201C1 percent\u201D and those on the way out, ignore the harm on the family of someone who comes to this House\u2014the young children and the wife who spend their time at home. They listen and are not able to defend themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b852fe3c664937a7eda8240ab58d49\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about Tuku\u2019s underpants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225441fc0404f7448b8ec6a4282bff9118\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is comparing $89 underpants with the accusation that Mr Tamihere is facing, he should go and change his. We have the politics of bitterness, the politics where we ignore the issues of the day to try to pull down an individual for some short-term personal achievement. I am proud to stand here as a member of the Labour Party at a time when John Tamihere is on the ropes. He is a man who, whatever he has done wrong, if anything, has given more to this country than those who are yapping on the Opposition benches. He has worked harder for people who need to be represented than those who foot-dance around policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002280de899045a84722a2928603deb940c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280de899045a84722a2928603deb940c7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E It does not matter what sort of gloss they might want to put on it, this is a very dark day for the Labour Party. We know that is the case because the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister came into the Chamber, together with several of their front-bench members, and resorted to very nasty personal attacks on members on this side of the House. They wanted somehow to say that John Tamihere, the great hope for the future of the Labour Party, putting his hand in the till and ripping the cash off some of the poorest New Zealanders, is OK. Three weeks after the issue was raised, 3 weeks after the question was asked, he scurried up to the Prime Minister\u2019s office and said: \u201CI can\u2019t get myself out of this. I have to admit that I did it, I took it.\u201D, and the Prime Minister came into the House and said that he is an honourable man for resigning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EHe has resigned only because he has been caught. He has finally handed in his warrants only because he knew that if he waited the Prime Minister would take them from him. Anyone who says that this is someone who has acted honourably has his or her head stuck in the sand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAs for the personal barbs that have been sent my way, let me make it very clear that I have never, for one minute, hidden the fact that I faced up to a civil court, not a criminal court, gave the other party a day in court, and paid the price. I never tried to hide that. But Mr Tamihere, even in his personal statement today, is still trying to hide it. He simply cannot get away with that sort of behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Ministers and members over there who shake their heads know that it is the beginning of the end for this Labour Government. John Tamihere can never again stand before an audience and say: \u201CI\u2019m on your side. Look at my record.\u201D, because that record will be forever besmirched by the fact that he said: \u201CI cannot take a payment off you.\u201D, and then spent time making sure he got it. But these are not wealthy people, these are not people with an endless amount of resource, they are some of the poorest New Zealanders. To say that they were grateful to him for everything he did for them, and therefore they insisted he take this considerable payment, just will not wash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EPeople will be nice to him, people will consider his family\u2014something the Labour Party does not often do\u2014and they will accept his word in this House. But he will not be back in Cabinet, he will not be at the helm of the Labour Party, and he will not be out on the marae, selling the Labour Party message in any way that gets listened to or in any way that gets accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI do not doubt that the Labour Party will send him on some sort of a reconciliation tour around the marae of this country. I do not doubt that his whanaunga in those places will embrace him, as families do, but they will not forgive him, because they have been betrayed by him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to make a couple of other comments about the indication Dr Cullen gave today, that Mr White has virtually no choice, it would seem, other than to vindicate the position that John Tamihere put to the House today. That is very, very worrying. What it means is that, given Dr Cullen\u2019s speech in the House today, this investigation is now a sham. Further, I have to say this quite publicly to the Serious Fraud Office: we in the National Opposition had our confidence in that office seriously shaken by the performance at the select committee this morning. We will be watching very closely the progress of this inquiry. Whatever happens, it is evident that Dr Cullen and the Prime Minister want this swept under the carpet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7e9aa0671264ff89e6a5da509e6e82f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7e9aa0671264ff89e6a5da509e6e82f\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E At least that was a better speech than Don Brash\u2019s. Dr Brash did not know that the situation had changed, so he stuck to the script and could not even alter his supplementary questions. Then Mr Hide\u2019s twin, Mr Brownlee, got up. All I will say to Mr Brownlee is that John Tamihere stood in this House and admitted what he had done wrong. I recall that member in a glass house throwing stones\u2014or in Mr Brownlee\u2019s case, he should not throw people down stairs. I remember that member defending the case. I would have thought it would be pretty cut and dried when one biffs a senior citizen down the stairs, and puts the boot in. One just fronts up and says: \u201CHey, mea culpa, I did it.\u201D But oh no, he spent a few bits of brass defending that case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287271ba2ae9742a292bbf94b74963ba8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to point out to the House that Mr Clayton Cosgrove has just shown himself to be extremely reckless with the truth. I would accuse him of being a liar, but I cannot. My point of order is this. I made a personal statement about this matter\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224be991e801bb4c3c8c238f31855e0fb9\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, challenge it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d3f74e42064476ba6662a5e2f7ecad1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cosgrove is running close to leaving the Chamber, but I will leave him there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ccc1a875334a07a822b1f738ce3cf3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I presented the absolute facts to the House. I understood that when a member does present the facts, those points that are included in that personal statement almost set the bounds for how that matter is referred to in the future. I want to tell Mr Cosgrove and his colleagues, that if they want to open up Mr Tamihere to a bit more allegation, he should carry on with his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022316acf0047ad4ee59cc860dee02cd517\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I would ask you, despite the slightly inflammatory end to that point of order, to give it careful consideration. Because a succession of Chairs in this Chamber have allowed that member to continue to refer to events about which Mr Hide made a personal explanation in terms that directly contradict his explanation, and I do think it is time that the man in question was ordered out next time he does it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022654365af8a3b46eba05cb8a121171ab1\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I simply refer both members, and other members of the House, to the content of the speeches that they themselves have made today in relation to the personal statement made in this House today, before yet again casting stones in a glass house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e904f0ea08414590aff82141547de8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any more assistance. A member\u2019s word will be taken in this House. I have been conscious of a number of members referring to John Tamihere. But I think most of them were very careful not to show in any way that they do not accept what he said. In this case Mr Cosgrove was doubting and embellishing matters relating to Gerry Brownlee. No more of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d667196d696e4f3db68a830d7d7c0ab7\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I want to talk about credibility and integrity, and I want to make some comparisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d3fa7be0fa44b3f9f39c707a7c1826e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e3ac238c1549218e047bf0676192d0\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: If I were Mr Smith I would not start. I want to talk about credibility, morals, and commitment. Let us line up Mr Tamihere, who stood in the House and for the first time had the opportunity to present some facts here. Now the evidence is out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EDr Brash made a very interesting statement in his contribution to the snap debate. He said that the Government was out of step with ordinary New Zealanders, in the way it had dealt with the issue. Well, there is a real problem with the people who have thrown mud, as Dr Brash and Mr Hide have. The people have spoken, and 82 percent have said that these are very, very serious allegations, and they should be examined. The Government has met that request with a high-level inquiry. Let us not forget that it was Mr Tamihere who referred some days ago\u2014before the trust did\u2014the allegations on the Paragon report so wildly thrown around this Chamber, and he himself referred them to the Serious Fraud Office. Eighty-two percent of New Zealanders have said: \u201CLet\u2019s examine it. We want a high-level inquiry, but we are holding judgment.\u201D I tell Dr Brash, Mr Brownlee, Mr Smith over there, and Mr Hide, that the problem they have is they want to execute a person before the facts are examined. The problem with that, of course, is that those Opposition parties are out of step with 82 percent of New Zealanders. I tell members that I will stand by John Tamihere, and I would be proud to have him in my electorate before I would stand in that huge shadow cast by Mr Brownlee and his twin, Mr Hide. Because if one looks at the commitments and achievements in business with the trust\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229053fe8992ce4211bf34edb6156dd47c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d68000c5f147daa2d08992cb0bee6c\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: It is OK, let him go, I love it. I relish it because he makes a fool of himself\u2014bring him on! I say this: look at the achievements of John Tamihere in that trust\u201412 employees, half a million bucks turnover; he took that to 200 staff and 12 million bucks turnover a year. Name me a couple of members, or the two in the front row, especially the deputy leader of the Opposition, or Mr Hide for that matter\u2014we know from his track record in gilt-edged securities he could not put a deal together if he tried\u2014name me their achievements. One should line up those achievements and Mr Tamihere\u2019s record with legislation in this place, against Mr Hide whom a newspaper referred to as the \u201Chuman wrecking-ball\u201D. Mr Hide\u2019s achievements, of course, are to tear down, smear, and throw mud. But he does not like it, of course, when members raise issues about him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have never ever, and I will not, challenge the member\u2019s word. That would be out of order. I have spoken about matters concerning the Fiji scam without challenging his statement. I have simply asked him to come clean on questions that, of course, he refuses to answer. To this day he refuses to answer why it was he\u2014the perk-buster\u2014who did nothing when he came back from that scam conference to go after the people who ripped off millions of dollars from hundreds of New Zealanders. He will not answer who paid his airfares, who set up the invitation, even after the Serious Fraud Office and the Securities Commission made him very much aware that it was a scam. But of course the perk-buster calls for accountability everywhere except in his own personal circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I say to Mr Hide: enjoy the media. I say to Mr Brownlee: enjoy the roll on this one. I believe that Mr Tamihere will come through this, and then Mr Hide will reap the whirlwind from the people, because the people are fair-minded. It says a lot about Kiwis when they say: \u201CWe will give you a fair go; we want this examined, this is serious, but we won\u2019t judge you until after the inquiry.\u201D I say to Mr Hide: \u201CYou enjoy the roll.\u201D\u2014if anybody could roll, he could\u2014\u201CYou enjoy the roll, and you reap the whirlwind.\u201D Then it will become an issue of Mr Hide\u2019s leadership, Mr Hide\u2019s integrity, and where Mr Hide goes from here. I relish that debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022df434ba176434f28a3b37fcc7486f3b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df434ba176434f28a3b37fcc7486f3b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Members can imagine our astonishment last week when on the front page of the Dominion Post we saw an image that highlighted what New Zealand First has been saying about our flawed refugee policy better than anything we could have said ourselves. Pictured there was a woman refugee, Asha Ali Abdille, a sickness beneficiary, who was upset because we wanted to improve our health screening services and that was preventing her from bringing in 14 additional family members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022904a7d7722844ec99d3fed724c823d01\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224020809b0b5848a581a8b9853065fa3d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Fourteen additional family members. Now, we have said for years that our system needs to be tightened so that one refugee equals one refugee, not 14 refugees who slide in through the back-door and on to our welfare system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut this story just gets worse. I wonder whether the journalists involved really knew just who it was they were putting on the front page of the Dominion Post. It turns out that the so-called sympathy case for bleeding-heart liberals has a background that Al Capone would have been proud of. She has, first, several convictions for violence and intimidation; second, a charge of conspiracy to kill, which did not proceed because the prosecution witnesses refused to testify; third, evidence of already bringing in several family members, some of whom were allegedly not true family members, which checks failed to identify; fourth, regular movement between the Somali communities of Hamilton, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Christchurch, and Lower Hutt, using intimidatory tactics to get her way; and, fifth, a well-known reputation for carrying weapons and spitting in people\u2019s faces, and then for telling them she has AIDS\u2014clearly a true role model for our refugee programme. This story has a disturbing undercurrent that our soft policies allow to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2b176d41b714b58966be0aebac1cc17\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: When did she come?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a020365d94d64c739ae4cff100dcecc6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Ten years ago\u2014when I was not in power. National and Labour are equally guilty on this matter. National was in power, but if the Dominion Post wants the real story it will be about the lax laws and weak system used to allow these people to come in, and then straight away to exploit the New Zealand taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis morning at the select committee we were told by the Immigration Service that three of the MV Tampa boys have brought in 11 people already\u2014each, not together; three of them have brought in 11 each. That is a disgrace and an abomination to this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe are now discovering that Chinese immigration to Christchurch has underpinned a thriving black market that local authorities, on their own admission, are not capable of containing. They estimate, from what they actually know, that there is a multimillion dollar black market operating in Christchurch, but they really do not know how big it is. The basis of the black market is the corruption-riddled immigration consultant business that this Government has done nothing to combat, and that continues to see scam after scam go undetected and unpunished. This black market operation is aided by lax laws surrounding student visas, work permits, and other easily exported visas and permits. The result of that, when an investigation by the Immigration Service happens, is that nearly half of all marriage claims and over 80 percent of all job claims in that region turn out to be fake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIf we were in power this is what would happen: a person would tell one lie\u2014and be on the next plane. That does not happen with those people in the Labour Government. Under the Labour Government anybody and everybody can exploit the New Zealand taxpayer. Once here, these groups set about ripping off the system, and 90 percent of refugees have never been off benefits. Nine out of 10 are still on benefits. Once here, these groups set out to rip off the system and work in the shady world of the black market, often escaping penalties because of the soft policies surrounding these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt is a rort, and it has to stop. It is costing taxpayers millions of dollars and has resulted in a new brand of criminal underworld that we are not, in any way, equipped to deal with, but which requires urgent attention. Every time I hear the Minister give assurances, I know full well that he has no idea what on earth he is talking about. He has no idea about what is going on out there. He is just making lousy excuses, as the previous Minister did. Fifty thousand people are coming here, and refugees\u2014[Interruption] Well, if a country is entitled to have 14 each, and that will be 20. We are not talking about 750 refugees a year; we are talking about 20,000 people coming here on a UN requirement for 750.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022a033be6cc5d143d6a25f758e1fa953b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a033be6cc5d143d6a25f758e1fa953b0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Listening to the exchanges that have just been going on between Mr Peters and Ms Dalziel I am reminded of the proverb \u201CAbsence makes the heart grow fonder\u201D. I want to talk this afternoon about the report that was released by the OECD last week, which has been widely reported for one element of what it said but largely ignored for another. I refer to the report about the state of families in New Zealand, and particularly to some of the comments that were made by Dr Adema, the author, with regard to the domestic purposes benefit and getting people back into the workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAlthough that report provoked a predictable chorus from those who say it is time to cut the domestic purposes benefit, the real point it was making was that in our system at the moment there is significant disincentive for the second earner in a family to get back into the workforce. If one takes a long-term view about the structure of both families and our tax system, and also about the structure of our workforce, then addressing that issue relating to the second income earner becomes critically important, and is far more important than whether we reduce the domestic purposes benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EUnited Future has campaigned for some time for the policy known as income-splitting. In many senses, that policy goes to the heart of the concern expressed in that OECD report. The problem we have at the moment is the anomalous situation where if a couple are involved in running a business\u2014be it a farm, a corner dairy, or something more expansive\u2014they can assign their income to each other and be taxed accordingly. But where they are running a household as equal partners, even though one might be the sole income earner, or one might be a substantial income earner and the other a small part-time income earner, they are unable to make that assignment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EEarlier this year a lot was made of the Gilbert family in Waih\u012B\u2014a family earning around $55,000 a year and complaining quite legitimately of middle-class squeeze. Under the income-splitting policy that we propose, if that $55,000 were being earned as a single income and assigned between the two partners, then that family would be a minimum of $45 a week better off, given current tax rates. If the tax rates changed or reduced, then that benefit would increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMany people, and I have talked to a large number, mainly women, in this category of being the second-income earner, are desperately keen to get back into the workforce, but are nobbled by the high cost of childcare. So they go to work to pay the childcare, to go to work, to pay the childcare, and it becomes a vicious circle they do not break out of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet us assume that that family, in a few years\u2019 time, has had a net salary increase in terms of either the part-time work or the full-time work of up to around $65,000 a year\u2014getting close to what is actually the current average household income. The benefit to them from an income-splitting policy is in the order of $75,000\u2014I mean $75 a week. I wish it were the former, but that is somewhat a slip of the tongue. Earlier in the House this afternoon, in attempting to debunk that argument, the Minister said the problem was that if they were earning the same amount, there would be no benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EYes, he is absolutely right, but that misses the point of the policy. The Treasury review in 2000 also missed the point. Where there is an equality of income there is not a problem. The tax is the tax, is the tax! It is where there is that inequality, or where that single income is being spread over a household, that the problem arises. If one talks to people about the concern and the incentive that they have to get back into the workforce, that is the area of concern and that is why income-splitting is a fair policy. It does recognise the equal contribution that both parents make to the household, whether one is working in the workforce and the other is working in the home. It is a practical policy that can be implemented at a time when the Government is taking $4.5 billion more in tax than it ever budgeted to. A policy that costs $500 million a year is very practical and very much in the interest of New Zealand families, and we promote it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002287b64e5f2cd34e1da2a736e8a72ee1f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287b64e5f2cd34e1da2a736e8a72ee1f6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E For a Prime Minister to lose one Minister is careless, but to lose six Ministers, including Lianne Dalziel for being dishonest, shows that this Government is rotten to the core in its culture. We have to ask the question: what is it about the culture of this Helen Clark Government that Ministers believe that they can say one thing and do another? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe have had all sorts of speeches from Government members today about the word \u201Chonour\u201D in relation to the announcement from John Tamihere and his resignation. It is anything but. Let us not get cute. The reason the announcement was made this afternoon was to hide the disgraceful conduct of Mr John Tamihere under the news wave of the US presidential election. What has changed? Lianne Dalziel chuckles away. Is she a member we would believe? As a Minister she was fired for being dishonest. Ruth Dyson can throw her name into the hat. She is a member with criminal convictions who had to resign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe US presidential election was the reason this has been announced today, not 4 weeks ago when John Tamihere knew he had taken a $195,000 golden handshake when he said he would not take it, and not 4 years ago when he knew that he had taken $195,000 when he said he would not take it. There is absolutely no honour in that whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMark Burton pretends, as do other Labour members, that John Tamihere has done nothing wrong. That is how low the Labour Party sets the standard. They say that it is OK to do one thing opposite to what they have said. The tone has been set by the Prime Minister. Let us remember that this is the Prime Minister who signed a painting that she did not paint. She committed an act of fraud and she set the example of dishonesty that goes on within this Government. This is also the Prime Minister who was dishonest in telling the people of New Zealand that all the \u201Ccorngate\u201D documents were released at the last election, when that was blatantly dishonest and not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister set a standard and six Ministers have had to resign because of their disgraceful conduct. I ask the House to compare that behaviour with the last 9 years of the National Government, when not one Minister was found to be dishonest\u2014not one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to know how we can believe anything that Labour Government Ministers say. In this example, John Tamihere was caught out. How many times did we hear members opposite say, when questions were asked about the Waipareira Trust, that we were being grossly unfair, we were muckraking, and that anything that had happened was completely kosher. Now we find out that $195,000 of public money, intended to help our most disadvantaged citizens, was taken to line the pockets of a Labour Minister, who was drawing a salary of nearly $250,000 a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225109b58debb344b6a97a697267c7c3ea\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dcd40c7ef804dbfa06bcb1c78dabb32\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Nearly $250,000 a year was being drawn as salary, and John Tamihere and this Government think it is OK for him to take $195,000 in a golden handshake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do ask the question as to what is the standard that is acceptable to this Government. In the speeches we have heard this afternoon one Government member after another has defended\u2014believe it or not\u2014the \u201Cintegrity\u201D of John Tamihere, given what he has now admitted, and knowing that he was caught out for saying one thing and doing quite the opposite. Whether it is Official Information Act requests, the dishonesty of Lianne Dalziel\u2014who, it is a matter of fact, lied to the public and had to resign her portfolio\u2014now John Tamihere, and, after Dover Samuels and so many other Ministers, how can we believe anything this Government says?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u002237f5ae7f70fd4669b36131912953aabb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237f5ae7f70fd4669b36131912953aabb\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Tainui):\u003C/span\u003E Having heard the previous speaker it is clear the Opposition is doing the numbers now; looking for another new leader. The Opposition got its wake-up call today, when we witnessed something quite incredible on the Opposition benches. Members opposite were nervous, anxious, jittery; then there was silence. The Leader of the Opposition made a cameo appearance and spoke in this House. Ten minutes later, in a silence so deafening that a member on the other side thought he heard an alarm clock, the National Party got its wake-up call. Those members know there is no leadership in their party and no inspiration about where things are going. What they have is \u201Cflashback Brash\u201D or \u201Cback-in-a-flash Brash\u201D. No matter what way we say it, they know they are doomed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe polls are looking good for this Government. We have made some changes in communities\u2014real communities. But what is National\u2019s track record under the leadership of Don Brash? In January this year Dr Brash said: \u201COver the next few months I plan to give a major speech on each of my five main priorities\u2014race relations, education, welfare dependency, security, and the economy.\u201D What has the public heard? Nothing. In July this year Dr Brash said: \u201CThe thing you will see increasingly is major policies being rolled out.\u201D What has the public of New Zealand heard from the National Party? Nothing. Then in September this year Dr Brash said: \u201CThe likelihood is that we will not do any other major speeches on things like social welfare reform, education, health, and so on, until the beginning of next year.\u201D So what we have from the other side is leadership under \u201Cflashback Brash\u201D or \u201Cback-in-a-flash Brash\u201D of a say nothing, do nothing party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022745bfd9d80d94c3887cb21af198fd3b8\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am reluctant to interrupt the member\u2019s speech but as was pointed out during the snap debate earlier this afternoon, it is appropriate if members are referred to by their correct title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a0689f55e934c768bb3d6bf1f1e1f93\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that. I was just about to remind the speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d811d6ea7144735b4388ed310bb9491\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: All we have heard from National is: \u201CWait and see. We\u2019ll tell you in time\u201D. But what have the New Zealand public heard from the National Party? Nothing. In September Dr Brash and his advisers said they were holding fire. It certainly looks like they are holding fire, because they have no bullets in their gun to shoot. It is a very sad track record. What we have seen throughout the whole of this year under Dr Brash\u2019s leadership is backtracking and flip-flopping. They do not know where they are going. They lack inspiration and have no direction. We really do not know what they are on about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EHowever, this Government has made many improvements since 1999. M\u0101ori unemployment is down from 18 percent to under 9 percent. More M\u0101ori are in training and employment in our communities. We have made real changes. More M\u0101ori are pursuing development aspirations. More M\u0101ori are in better housing. More M\u0101ori are receiving better health-care. More M\u0101ori have better employment opportunities. These improvements do not relate just to M\u0101ori but to Pacific Island people and low-income people. We see that as achieving real outcomes in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWhat do we hear from members opposite? We hear only criticism. They have no vision, no ideas, just silence. They are silent, because everybody is supposed to wait until next year for the Opposition to say what a National Government would do. The Opposition cannot put forward one good idea of what it proposes and how it proposes to benefit the public of New Zealand. That is a sad track record, especially so late into this term under the leadership of Dr Brash. In fact, one of the most innovative changes for M\u0101ori has been the emergence of M\u0101ori Television. That is one of the most positive things that has happened, but the Opposition says that a National Government would scrap it. The Opposition does not even want to see it continue. That is a sad indictment on Opposition members. They have no direction for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00221278410503d54c9ba9990b8710172e1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221278410503d54c9ba9990b8710172e1a\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E From time to time I ask myself what I am doing here as a member of Parliament, what I ought to be doing, and what we in New Zealand First as an Opposition should be telling the Government it should be doing. One of the obvious examples that we have at the moment is the failure of this Government to do anything about this refugee, Ahmed Zaoui. I will read from the decision of the Court of Appeal and Justice Glazebrook, who refers to this person. I quote from paragraph 165, where she refers to: \u201C \u2026 Mr Zaoui\u2019s Algerian convictions, the decisions declining him refugee status in Belgium, the Belgian and French convictions, the deportation from Switzerland, non-classified information provided by the SIS, newspaper reports linking Mr Zaoui to the GIA in Algeria and other armed groups, and an alleged admission as to membership by Mr Zaoui on arrival in New Zealand.\u201D One wonders why this person is in New Zealand. Those comments are from Justice Glazebrook in talking about this person who is regarded as a refugee in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a84b36751d24c36a952445c23ad84fa\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not telling the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022992fe3c5a03f4fd8a0ba7a354f777b7d\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] That member is lying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d68241820448bdac98c4c72e79d6d8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c38c9f35796941c78c3bb5aa818de096\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I am speaking the truth. I am quoting from the judge\u2019s decision. I ask that the member be asked to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f88a0fe02a14b9eb2aa04a3608cf49c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to please be seated\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63460ec25114e5698972e327c4457f8\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I am asking him to withdraw and apologise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289941fd7fa35411d854bbee2426b6c25\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to ask the member to do something\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8da433b360744f5ba651a0e0d1ac1e0\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a4e15ddbb5448cc9448b128b4221250\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I am speaking the truth. I am quoting from Justice Glazebrook\u2019s decision. The Greens just cannot take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205509538271c40879f50919d0d504223\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc703f9c61334fe685222d1bad0d13d3\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The justice upheld the Refugee Appeals\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2e88dfb75ab44b4ba47d6f6a84cee9c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will sit down when I am standing up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb300a1bcdb14d44889e084c8943262a\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e7c9254407f49238b6471684f6c5043\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I should say so. The next time the member wants to speak, he should make a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee75dccec954c06ae5be68fda9f15e6\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member said I was not speaking the truth. I am quoting the words of Justice Glazebrook. She referred to this person as having \u201C\u2026 Algerian convictions \u2026 Belgian and French convictions \u2026 deportation from Switzerland \u2026\u201D I am quoting from the judgment. I ask that the member withdraw and apologise, because I am telling the truth and he said I was not. He is not entitled to say that I am not telling the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e12995bccd4369b1d18fda7907e8c4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. We will dispose of that. I did not hear what Mr Locke said, but if the speaker on his feet thought that that is what was said, then I ask the member to withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221251956b6fdd43c3b4037bdd2ee4c9dd\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976375c69b4245ae90ed349fbf4ae685\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I ask the member whether he said that to Mr Jones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229db891383cb4495297a5656fd219edbb\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: My interjection\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747785d7de024033b5777fe06a47e58c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d37996b005c4f6bbce9c35b5ae406cd\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Not on its own, I said he was not telling the truth\u2014no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221788a29d2f1e4892a55f0118d85eeeca\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member use those words, at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222052065a5893444ba855b64cd32a13cd\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot remember the exact words I said. If I said words that were reflecting on his honesty\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3371cb1e323451cbf808e171a4c8bd7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member withdraw and apologise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243bf174594384452992a7396d18fa8a9\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I withdraw and apologise, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d75d9e39fb34c819ec35cec363e4597\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I was quoting from Justice Glazebrook\u2019s decision, page 165, if that member would care to read it. The Greens, of course, are not interested in the truth of these matters in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOf course, the important thing about Justice Glazebrook\u2019s decision is that she came down to the situation where I believe we are seeing incompetence on the part of the Labour Party. To put it in simple terms, Justice Glazebrook has said that if Zaoui is a threat to the national security of countries overseas, he might be able to stay in New Zealand. What the inspector-general has to establish is whether Zaoui is a threat to the national security of New Zealand. That is an extraordinary situation to be in. Mr Locke now agrees with me\u2014which is the point I was coming to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EHere we have a person, Ahmed Zaoui, whose risks to this country have been listed by Justice Glazebrook, but we have to establish that Mr Zaoui is a risk, perhaps, to Australia, to Fiji, to New Caledonia or to Tahiti before\u2014according to current law and according to Justice Glazebrook\u2019s present interpretation\u2014he can be deported. If I were an Australian, a Fijian or a Tahitian, and I knew that Mr Zaoui was living in my country, that he was the leader of the Armed Islamic Group (GIA), that he was charged in and expelled from Switzerland because of a massacre of Swiss tourists in North Africa, and that he left South-east Asia shortly after the Bali bombings\u2014which is when he came to New Zealand to find another spot to live in\u2014I would try to eliminate him. There is no doubt about the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhy have someone who is a terrorist living safely in New Zealand? The courts of New Zealand say that he is not a threat to our security, even though he might be a threat to the security of Australia, Fiji, or somewhere else\u2014and that, in my view, makes him a threat to the national security of New Zealand. But if there is any doubt about it, I say to the Labour Party that we should have legislation before us tomorrow to tidy up this loophole. Instead of the Labour Party bringing in civil union bills and spending time on prostitution reform bills, and instead of it being sidetracked on John Tamihere, it should be making sure that we are safe in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis Ahmed Zaoui is a man whose political party in Algeria was funded by Saudi Arabia. The Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) was supported by a Saudi Arabian multimillionaire\u2014there is one of those in Afghanistan whom they are looking for right now\u2014and the FIS is the party to which Zaoui belongs. He is a person about whom ArabicNews.com says: \u201CAhmed Zaoui, a leader of the Armed Islamic Group (GIA) which is largely blamed for massacres of civilians in Algeria, has slipped into Switzerland and requested asylum.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b0ff55f4b8f4cb7ae1ab5a7355ccbfe\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s saying that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8178071bd99449b994fe941823e7fde\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It says \u201CArabicNews.com\u201D. He is a well-known terrorist, an absolutely well-known terrorist, and he was thrown out of Switzerland because of the massacre of Swiss citizens in North Africa and, of course, we know how that was funded. Now, if Zaoui was a good bloke, he could have gone back to Algeria, because the leaders of the FIS, Mr Madani and Mr Belhadj have been released. They did not commit massacres, but clearly Zaoui after he left Algeria was involved with massacres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI say to the Labour Party that it has to bring in legislation urgently to deal with this bloke, because otherwise there is a serious possibility that the inspector-general\u2019s certificate will be challenged, and we have had a clear warning from the Court of Appeal of the problems that could ensue. Would any member here want to live next door to someone who might be taken out by some other person from another country? I certainly do not, so that is our responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00226475df9dcd1d492b80847514f7af3b7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226475df9dcd1d492b80847514f7af3b7d\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E As the member for Hamilton West, I want to place on record the great sense of privilege I have to work with someone of the calibre of \u201CJT\u201D\u2014John Tamihere. He is, in my view, a great example of a decent bloke who has cared for this country, and I believe he has much to contribute to our nation in the future. Unlike the people in the Opposition, he is not a hater and he is not a wrecker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI listened very closely to the previous speaker, Dail Jones, who, as we all know, had a previous incarnation in this Parliament, in a different era in our country\u2019s history. I looked at his body language during the contribution made earlier this afternoon by Dr Brash. I also looked at Winston Peter\u2019s body language, and that of other New Zealand First MPs. I know that Dail and I obviously do not agree on a heck of a lot, but Dail could not have enjoyed the experience of seeing the leader of a once broad-based and proud party\u2014a party he was once a member of\u2014go through the motions that we witnessed this afternoon. Dail Jones\u2019s body language was not the only body language that spoke volumes. He is a member of a different party from National, obviously, but one could sense that sense of pity and concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258e81e7241774282a9434eef4158f6ad\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is hard for me to take exception on my own behalf, so I take exception on behalf of Mr Dail Jones to the greasy familiarity that the member on his feet is using in relation to Mr Jones. The member keeps talking about looking across the Chamber and observing Mr Jones\u2019s demeanour. Well, I can see Mr Jones looking absolutely mortified at being brought into the member\u2019s speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b6ba1b68dec4172b5c366890ac57ee3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That matter should not have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb367bdca994960a29ac42a88789589\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand that it is a convention in this House that the Speaker intervenes when other members are referred to by their first names, or in a familiar fashion that is not invited. I believe that Mr Jones did not invite that reference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88a0bfcdb5a44a5949a81fcdafcdd8e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that the full name should have been used. There was at least one instance when Mr Gallagher used Mr Jones\u2019s Christian name only, and he should not have done so. Please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76e042a305e4b31b4d82af31c01fd2f\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, obviously I do not agree with a number of Mr Jones\u2019s views\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b87ee79487b41f3a885b5fc6d3d8394\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of all this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c6b4212809b4dcc9e5033ac2c97bfbf\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that he was once a member of a great, proud party, formerly led by Keith Holyoake, Jack Marshall, and Sid Holland, and we can see what it has become now. That is the point. In terms of democracy in this country, it is sad to see one of our broad-based, former mainstream parties go down the tubes because of incompetent, diffident leadership. I was an admirer of Keith Holyoake as a young chap growing up in Hamilton, and to see that gives even me grief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe Opposition should make Winston Peters an offer he cannot refuse and put him out of his misery. But, more important, the Opposition should put Dr Brash out of his misery. If ever there was an embarrassment, and if ever we were cringing, then today was that day. I was looking at the body language of the Opposition members, and I just knew that they were cringing. Even Ron Mark, who is no friend of the National Party at the best of times, wanted to get out the smelling salts. Even he wanted to offer humanitarian assistance, because even he had a sense of embarrassment. Why have I been accused of being familiar as far as Dail Jones is concerned? Because I respect history. I actually respect someone who has significant parliamentary experience and who actually sat in this House during a different era, and I know what Dail Jones must be thinking in his heart of hearts. Actually, it confirms to me why he moved on to New Zealand First, and in that sense I respect him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI will quote from my own local newspaper, the Waikato Times, which is a middle-of-the-road paper. It is certainly no friend of the Government, but it is no friend of the Opposition, either\u2014it plays it very much down the middle. It had a very interesting editorial on 28 September about Don Brash\u2019s decision to shelve a planned series of king hit speeches. The editor of the Waikato Times, one of our major daily papers in New Zealand, with a major circulation, stated: \u201CIs it clever politicking or simply a lack of guts? Whatever way Don Brash\u2019s decision to shelve a planned series of \u2018king-hit\u2019 speeches this year is viewed, it is clear he has taken a huge gamble. By canning the speeches\u2014that were to focus on major policies such as welfare, the foreshore and seabed and employment relations\u2014the National Party leader now risks having his abilities judged solely on his performance in the House\u2014the very area in which he is weakest.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022faf80879778c4a11ad1174310b751b42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faf80879778c4a11ad1174310b751b42\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. As someone who is utterly passionate about health, I am a bit concerned. We should get the medics in to see to that poor member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002211ffcf241aad48b79f023f17ddaf48a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211ffcf241aad48b79f023f17ddaf48a7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. It should not have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab975de47e714f67b7c41666d06283f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab975de47e714f67b7c41666d06283f7\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E This debate is customarily used for rebuttal. It is one of the few genuine debates we get in the House when people take up points that have been raised previously. I want to deal with something that was raised in the House earlier today but not in this debate. The Minister of Agriculture answered a question about the costs of crime to the rural community, the costs of the precautions rural families have to take, and the change in the culture and climate of rural areas, which have gone from being one of the proudest exhibits of Godzone\u2014we thought we had the best way of living in the world\u2014to being an area that people are now moving from. The Minister of Agriculture\u2019s answer to a genuine question\u2014whether he had an idea of those costs and whether he had inquired about the sustainability of farming in areas where stock is now treated as a public asset for marauders to prey on\u2014was: \u201CI do not support the member\u2019s bill to allow the shooting of trespassers.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EMy bill does not authorise the shooting of trespassers. It is a careful bill, designed to restore a state of law that this country enjoyed until only 25 years ago. It is designed to restore the effect of a defence that every New Zealander thought until 1980 was automatic common sense. In fact, pretty much every New Zealander still thinks it is automatic common sense; it is the justice establishment, and the politically correct Ministers of this Government who think it is laughable, ludicrous, or outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EMy bill would tell people that what 80 percent of them are already doing is OK. Eighty percent of law-abiding, decent, hard-working farmers say they would use a weapon to defend themselves and their property if necessary. The bill says that what ordinary, decent people think should happen should be the law. What we have in our rural areas now is an international anomaly. In no other country surveyed by the International Crime Victim Surveys is crime dramatically higher in provincial and rural areas than it is in the centre of the big cities. New Zealand is alone in having more crime in its provinces than in its cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere is a simple reason for that. We now expect lawful defenders of their own homes and property to dither, to carefully calibrate their proportionate response, to wonder what a court might hold later, and to wonder whether they are going to be bankrupted or lose their entire livelihood and their families, instead of acting on the simple, intuitive, and rational response of threatening unreasonable force. One simple thing that every code on defence and every military treatise says about defence is that it is not a matter of slowly and in a very carefully calibrated way elevating the hostilities. The best method of defence is to threaten an unreasonable response so that the only sensible thing for the aggressor to do is run away, stop what he or she is doing, and get out of it. That is the one thing our law says they cannot do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe one thing our law now says is that\u2014just get a load of this\u2014people may use force but may not strike or harm a trespasser stealing their property. What kind of force is the law talking about? The only way we can find out is by going to court. That is exactly what the Attorney-General insists happens time after time. Common-sense juries discharge these poor victims. Common-sense juries acquit in more than eight out of 10 cases. Our justice system should take a message from that. Precedents should apply. One would think that the police would be allowed not to prosecute when they lose eight out of 10 cases, but the Crown Law Office sends to court the poor devils who have already been traumatised. In McIntyre\u2019s case, 2 years later he is going through a second trial. The cost to him is enormous. He will not get out of this for under $300,000 or $400,000 in costs. No one will compensate him when he is finally acquitted; there will be no reimbursement to Mr McIntyre. The real victims are the defenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278b56f988f3248338320252e1f7ee987\u0022\u003EParental Leave and Employment ProtectionAmendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022194c1418e05d41d9a1acc3d0659d564c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00221d24d0a3103f4d2189e41535a178dd85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d24d0a3103f4d2189e41535a178dd85\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill be now read a third time. I am pleased to begin the bill\u2019s final process for passage. This Government is conscious that balancing work and family life is a critical issue for many New Zealanders. The Government is committed to ensuring that working people who have families are able to participate in paid employment to their full potential. Thousands of families have already benefited from the paid parental leave scheme introduced in 2002. The scheme has already made a difference to many working families by supporting them with leave and job protection, by encouraging greater female workplace attachment, and by supporting the health and well-being of new mothers and their babies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIn 2003 the evaluation of the implementation and effectiveness of the paid parental leave scheme showed that the scheme had been very well received. The research showed that the scheme\u2019s impact on business had been predominantly positive or neutral and that almost all mothers who accessed the scheme took the full 12 weeks\u2019 paid leave. A number of people who participated in the evaluation made suggestions about how the scheme could be improved. Some of the key suggestions formed the basis of the bill before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill enhances the existing Act to ensure that the benefits of paid parental leave can now be accessed by more people. It lowers the eligibility threshold by providing that to be eligible for paid parental leave a woman need only have worked for the same employer for the 6 months immediately preceding the expected date of delivery or adoption of a child, rather than 12 months as at present. This change makes it easier for more New Zealand women to access the scheme, particularly those who work in less standard employment arrangements. The bill also extends the duration of leave, from 12 weeks to 14 weeks progressively by 1 December 2005. This will enable better compliance with international human rights instruments relating to the duration of paid maternity leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill continues to recognise the diversity of New Zealand families. While paid parental leave is predominantly taken by women, paid parental leave may also be transferred to a partner provided he or she also meets the eligibility criteria. The bill makes it clear that, for the purposes of entitlement to the paid parental leave scheme, teachers employed by boards of trustees at more than one State or integrated school are to be treated as having one employer. This ensures that teachers who work concurrently in more than one school or move from one school to another have continuous employment in the public education service recognised for the purpose of accessing paid parental leave. The bill also ensures that the unique situation affecting some junior doctors who currently risk missing out on parental leave entitlements because they are required to change employers as part of their compulsory training will be addressed. A new provision will recognise continuous service between different district health boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESome submitters made suggestions as part of the evaluation of the paid parental leave scheme and to the Social Services Committee that the scheme be extended to self-employed women. Further work on the feasibility of extended paid leave to the self-employed is currently being undertaken. As part of this process, officials are considering the overall framework, the design, the eligibility criteria, and the payment structure that could apply to self-employed people. Policy development relating to the self-employed is a very high priority for me, and I am committed to progressing this issue further in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E The bill strikes a fair balance between employers and employees. This balance will allow new parents time to raise a newborn or adopted child without fear of losing substantial amounts of income or resigning from their jobs, while also ensuring that the rapid growth of the New Zealand economy continues. By extending paid parental leave from 12 to 14 weeks, expanding the eligibility criteria for those wishing to access paid parental leave, and allowing new mothers to transfer their paid parental leave entitlement to their partners our Government is ensuring that New Zealand working parents who wish to have children have the best opportunity to do so while continuing to participate in paid employment to their full potential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I thank the Social Services Committee for its diligence and hard work on the bill. I also commend very highly the officials, particularly those from the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs and the Department of Labour, for their hard work and commitment to this area. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002274e4ade5ec6b4779ac62db43a61af953\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274e4ade5ec6b4779ac62db43a61af953\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from the Minister, the Hon Ruth Dyson, I say firstly that it is nice to have a Minister who thanks the committee because it takes a tremendous amount of work by a committee for these bills to come through. Even when not supporting a particular bill, we in the National Party find that we do our best to try to help the bill along in the best possible way that we can, and when there are some amendments that we can help to make. Speaking from experience, which, of course, most of the Labour Party do not have, it is very helpful to them so we do our best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is the sort of bill concerning which the Labour Party should bring itself to understand that self-employed people are not the enemy. Self-employed people work, have babies, and pay taxes and they also need work-life balance or, as the Minister has called it, family work-life balance. Yet these people are being excluded, and that is why we cannot support this bill. The Labour Party and United Future, which is supporting Labour, had the opportunity to give self-employed people a bit of a go\u2014to give them a chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216ef97199c1e44d8bbc9f987670673d4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd860fab08714ec2bb758f07a04ca297\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand First, along with National, would have been happy to help out in that way. But instead, Labour chose to extend the period of paid parental leave from 12 to 14 weeks. It chose to reduce the amount of time that someone needed to be in the same employment before he or she could get parental leave, and it did that in preference to providing for the people who own their own businesses in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is a country of small businesses, the numbers of which are getting smaller. New Zealand is a country where lots and lots of women and men own their own businesses or set up their own practices. Physiotherapists, nurse practitioners, people who work in areas such as the trades, people who have panel-beating shops\u2014all these people have families too. If we are to give to one section of the community, why are we not also giving to them? Paid parental leave is not based on income. It is not something that only those on a limited income can access. This is something that some of the highest-paid people in the country, who happen to be employed\u2014people, for instance, like the chief executive of Telecom\u2014can access. Yet poor old Joe and Janet Bloggs, who are on $30,000 a year, having set up a plumbing business, will not be able to access this benefit because they have decided to be independent, work for themselves, try to build their own business, and work all the hours that God has given them. They will pay for the luxury of very highly paid people getting this benefit. That is what it is\u2014a benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe are all for some fairness in this issue. Most of us on this side of the House have some experience of working and being mothers or fathers at the same time. The two should not be mutually exclusive. We think that people who have families will obviously add tremendously to their work experience because they bring a bit of reality to their work. They understand what it is like to bring up families, and often under quite severe financial difficulties. It takes an awful lot to do this. It is very, very interesting that this is one bill where the Greens, ACT, New Zealand First, and National are all on the same side. That is because of one issue, which is that this bill is discriminatory. Obviously, bills that are concerned with benefits need to discriminate in some way, otherwise we would not be giving out anything in terms of taxpayer money for people to have children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe think that children are really good in this country. We want more babies. We particularly want anyone other than me to have more babies. The reason that we need people to have more babies is that we need to have our home-grown babies first and foremost. We cannot do that if we consistently take more and more money off people by way of taxes\u2014money that they cannot afford\u2014and then punish them because they happen to look after their own children and stay with the person who is also the other parent. That is what they see happening to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThere is nothing in this bill for people who have set up their own businesses. There is nothing for the plumbers, the electricians, or for the people who have mortgaged their homes and thrown caution to the wind. They are the people in this country who make a huge difference. There is nothing in this bill for farmers. That is important because, despite all the rhetoric from some of the Ministers about high-tech\u2014and it is true that high-tech is very important\u2014high-tech in this country started with the farmers. We need only to look at the work that places like the Ruakura Research Centre have done over the years and that Fonterra is now continuing to do\u2014and will do more of it overseas because of the funny rules we have here about GE\u2014to see that these industries have been at the forefront of science in this country. The farmers have been the people who have paid for it. They are again being asked to go about their business, keep on working\u2014both women and men\u2014have children, look after their kids, get them to school, be in charge, and pay for the pleasure of someone else being able to have some time off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis would be a nice opportunity for the Government, instead of extending the 12-week period to 14 weeks\u2014and what sort of difference does that make anyway except to the pay packet\u2014to extend a little bit of taxpayers\u2019 largesse to self-employed people. We understand that it is good for self-employed working people to be able to have families as well. They are getting squeezed by this Government. It taxes them to beggary. We have only to look at the November issue of  North and South to see that in this country now there is no point bothering to earn $60,000. One might as well earn $38,000, because under the Government\u2019s scheme that is what one is paying for. It is all going out in taxes. It is totally unfair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is the opportunity that the Government has. I do not understand why United Future did not help in this matter. I do not understand why, given its ability to bring a bit of common sense into this bill, it did not use that opportunity. United Future had the Government in the position of having to look to them, to us, or to somebody else to help out with this bill. United Future had the opportunity, and it let it go. That is the great tragedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Government knew that it could not go to the Greens on this legislation. It knew it could not go to ACT and it could not come to National, unless it would allow self-employed people to get a little bit of a fair go. Unfortunately, United Future buckled. It buckled on this bill and let down the people of this country who have common sense, it let down small business, and it did it because it wanted to say to the Government: \u201CWe\u2019ll roll over and you can tickle our tummy.\u201D Coming from a farming background, I can say that I would not accept that sort of behaviour. United Future has let this opportunity go. It will now have to wait until after the next election, when we will have to look again at this whole issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f884d07a301e4ff88ac7f531bed671f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f884d07a301e4ff88ac7f531bed671f2\u0022\u003ELIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that that would be one of the most sanctimonious contributions I have heard in this House, made by somebody who likes to describe herself as a spokesperson on families. The utter inconsistency is absolutely breathtaking. On the one hand, the National Party is telling one constituency that this bill does not go far enough and, on the other hand, that it does not agree with one word of the existing legislation. So it does not support the bill, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that that is utterly inconsistent with the practice of those members in National\u2019s own party. Sure, Katherine Rich did not get paid parental leave, but she was paid her full salary while she was having her babies\u2014not once, but twice. For weeks on end she was happy to receive her pay as a member of Parliament, but she is not happy to see ordinary working women in this country, and men who provide parental support when their babies are born, with 12 weeks\u2019\u2014now 14 weeks\u2019\u2014paid leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill is a fantastic effort on the part of this Government, which is really doing something to help young families and working parents and enable them to settle in with their new babies, and then to return to the workforce. I think that this Minister, Ruth Dyson, who has been utterly and consistently determined to deliver improvements to the paid parental leave scheme, is somebody who I trust will deliver to the self-employed in the future\u2014but there has to be a new way of finding that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOne thing that the very interesting previous speaker did not mention was what National would do about people who were entitled to paid parental leave but who did not take that leave. When self-employed people have been interviewed about the subject, they have said that taking 12 or 14 weeks off work would be detrimental to their businesses, and that the negative impacts would outweigh the benefits of receiving paid parental leave. When we actually talk to individuals, we find it is very clear that a lot more work needs to be done on that, but I am confident that Ruth Dyson will deliver on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022 data-id=\u0022135a6dff3148455fb531740354b05d68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022135a6dff3148455fb531740354b05d68\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Is it not ironic that we have a bill before the House that gives some form of benefit to one sector of the community, while others are denied the same opportunity and privilege? Is it not ironic that a Supplementary Order Paper presented to the House that even the select committee did not refuse, has been reassigned to be disposed of? Is it a sign of the future that we are not given the opportunity to speak on amendments presented? That smells of disrespect\u2014or, should I say, dictatorship. We in New Zealand First have been told that we cannot speak to our amendments, so the self-employed\u2014a very hard-working sector\u2014are being denied the same opportunity as employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EThe title of this bill should be changed to the \u201CEmployee Parental Bill\u201D, because my understanding of the word \u201Cparent\u201D is that it covers all people who have fathered and mothered children, irrespective of their social status and employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EThe Social Services Committee received 11 submissions on the bill, the majority being in support of its general intention. Many of those who generally supported the bill wished to see some aspects changed. One suggested change included extending the legislation to cover self-employed women. If this Government has any future intention of including the self-employed, I ask when that will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EInitially, New Zealand First was in the frame of mind to support the bill, subject to the amendments being included. We have now had a change of heart, because of the unfairness to a very strong competitor in the economic structure of this country. New Zealand First is very disappointed with the result of the readings of this bill. However, I say to fair-minded listeners out there that the opportunity for their participation will come their way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First, in all sincerity\u2014even at this stage of this Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill\u2014exhorts this minority Government to reconsider the present position and include the self-employed in this legislation. If international human rights allow that to happen, what are the rights of our women who are self-employed? What about farmers\u2019 wives and those who are running small businesses, as has been noted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003ESelf-employed people are also family people. If United Future supported my Supplementary Order Paper, why does it support this bill as it now stands? That is something to think about. This bill provides some form of benefit. Why is that not extended to families who really contribute to the tax take of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First also recognises parents who are in the process of adopting children. That was one of the amendments we wanted to speak on but that was never taken into consideration. New Zealand First is really disappointed. We thought the Labour-led Government would look at the amendments and consider including self-employed people in this bill. When we look at mothers who struggle\u2014who already have families at the same time as they give birth to the future generations of this country\u2014we ask why they are being left out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EWho is responsible for not allowing a hearing for our amendments? I asked that question yesterday. Yes, I really did, but as of today we have not received a reply. We have all heard that this bill is for only one sector of the people\u2014maybe all those who belong to a union? I am not quite sure. If they belong to a union, is that why the Government is chasing those employees only?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First looks at the broad spectrum of families throughout the country. We have heard remarks about how beautiful this country is. What about the people who reside in this country? Are they not the ones who make it beautiful? Are they not the ones who contribute to the tax take and to the GDP of the country? Why are they not being taken into consideration? When New Zealand First, hopefully, becomes part of the Government, or becomes the Government, this policy will change to include every citizen of this country who meets the criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EI thank members for listening, and I tell those in the Government to take heed. They are denying people who have families, who work hard, and who are entitled to the same treatment as those they purport to support, from being included in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022653c88c73a0d417aa3742af9b39bb9c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022653c88c73a0d417aa3742af9b39bb9c0\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to support the third reading of this bill. We support the extension of parental leave, because it values the time that a family spends together when a child is first born. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EDespite the controversy the bill attracted before it was introduced in 2002, paid parental leave went out to 18,000 people in its first year, at a cost of over $51 million. About 3,900 people receive paid parental leave at any given time, and 98 percent of those take the full 12-week payment so that they can stay at home. An initial evaluation of the scheme by the Department of Labour found that parents considered it highly beneficial. As well as having more money to cover bills, new mothers were able to stay at home longer with their babies. It was also thought to have a positive impact on the number of mothers able to breastfeed. Paid parental leave also acknowledges that being a mother\u2014or a father, for that matter\u2014is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd5bba9c91c04765aabcb65ded95db2d\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: Before the House rose for tea, I was referring to the fact that paid parental leave acknowledges the fact that being a mother or father is important. Whereas previous generations of women fought for the right to have a career, it is getting to the point with this generation that women have to fight for the option of being a parent at the same time as having a career. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAccording to a recent study by a Waikato demographer, Janet Sceats, parents are increasingly choosing to send their kids to day care at much younger ages, because they cannot afford to stay with them at home. Whereas 22 percent of women born in the 1940s returned to work before their children were 2 years old, by the 1970s it was up to 64 percent. The concern for our population growth is that women faced with juggling work and family commitments will opt not to have children, and that is supported by our current falling fertility rates, particularly in urban areas such as central Auckland and Wellington. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EParental leave seems to play an important role in easing some of these issues, but it is by no means a silver bullet. Although this bill extends the scheme from 12 to 14 weeks, it is of fairly limited assistance for those who would like to stay at home with their children for the first few years of their lives. Our point is not that every parent should do that, or that the State should pay for it, but we are concerned that that option is no longer a real choice. Rather, I want to quote the word \u201Cluxury\u201D, which the Hon Steve Maharey labelled it on the radio earlier this year. Whether it is motivated by feminism or the need to realise all labour resources in the light of skill shortages, the Government has been focused on subsidising childcare so that both parents can return to work as soon as possible after a child is born. But the same kind of assistance is not available to those who choose to stay at home to look after their children. We are saying that we should at least level the playing field so that families face a reasonably balanced choice between whether one parent stays at home or both return to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ETo the extent that paid parental leave is only ever enough to subsidise a very temporary break from the workforce, United Future believes that income splitting would help to create a more level playing field by recognising that the main income earner is not only supporting a child but is also supporting another adult who takes the main role in caring for that child. Paid parental leave is also limited by the fact that it does not extend to the self-employed. For some time the Government has said that it is looking at extending the scheme to self-employed parents, but to date very little has been forthcoming. According to a letter that the Minister wrote to the select committee: \u201CPolicy development relating to the self-employed is a very high priority for me, and I am committed to progressing this issue further in the near future to include self-employed parents as far as practicable.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESubmitters to the select committee were also very keen to see this issue advanced. It was reported in the Sunday Star-Times in February this year that Margaret Wilson was recommending to Cabinet that the self-employed be covered by paid parental leave, and apparently Cabinet has discussed the matter but was not happy with the proposals put forward by the Minister. So the question that United Future has is: why could this bill not have waited until a solution is found for self-employed parents? Why is the Government able to levy the self-employed for accident compensation levies and assess them for tax purposes, yet is not able to come up with a way of paying them with paid parental leave? Or is the issue here the Government\u2019s unwillingness to let its policy-making be guided by anything other than the myth of a class struggle between downtrodden workers and exploitative bosses. We prefer to take the view that the common element here is the family, and that that is why the self-employed should be covered by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EHowever, our support for this bill is based on this idea: if we in this room could imagine 10 women representing a cross-section of women in New Zealand, we can assume that five of those women already qualify for paid parental leave, that after this bill three more will qualify for paid parental leave, and that the remaining two represent those women yet to receive an acknowledgment by this Government that they are also entitled to paid parental leave. My challenge to New Zealand First is: why vote against this bill because of who it excludes, rather than support it because of who it now brings in under that umbrella? United Future is happy to support the bill on that basis, but is very keen, though, to advance the cause that New Zealand First put forward its amendments on\u2014that paid parental leave be extended to self-employed women. We are very happy to see that extension at a later date, but not to support this bill when we would exclude another group of women from coming under its provisions, which is a very sad thing for parties that are posturing to care about families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EPeople opposing this bill need to be seriously questioned about that. United Future is very happy to support this bill for that reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022460ae7c515694e95ad958f97d8234d57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022460ae7c515694e95ad958f97d8234d57\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party has supported and will continue to support any moves to extend paid parental leave to more working mothers and fathers in New Zealand, and we will be voting for this bill today. We are pleased that the Government did not feel that it needed to wait until after the next election before starting to expand on the 2002 Act, and that today we are increasing entitlements up to 14 weeks, albeit gradually, and extending eligibility to employees with between 6 and 12 months\u2019 service with one employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EHowever, I have to say that like many union submitters, we do not think that this bill goes far enough towards meeting the demands and needs of working women in particular, or our theoretical obligations under ILO Convention 183 Concerning the Revision of the Maternity Protection Convention. But we accept, alas, that there are budgetary constraints under which the Minister and the department must operate. In particular, we would have liked to see more groups of precarious workers become eligible for paid parental leave, by removing the minimum weekly hours threshold, by extending eligibility to those employed by more than one employer in the previous 12 months, and by redefining continuous employment to allow breaks of employment of up to 3 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is also keen to inspire this Government\u2014eventually, anyway\u2014to implement a legislative right to breastfeeding breaks, and to do more to encourage employers to create a positive and enabling environment for breastfeeding mothers in the workplace. We would have liked to move an amendment to this bill in that direction, but unfortunately we were informed that breastfeeding is outside its scope. Personally, I can see a very direct connection between the issue of paid parental leave and the ability, or otherwise, of new mothers to return to work after a mere 12 or 14 weeks. But, alas, that is far too sensible for the system of how we create law in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ETurning to another matter, like some of my Labour colleagues I have been somewhat astonished by the ferocious input by National, ACT, and New Zealand First on the question of paid parental leave for the self-employed. Although those parties have voted\u2014so far, at least\u2014against the bill itself, I do not get that the parties of the right are saying that only the self-employed should get paid parental leave. I do not understand what sense it makes to oppose paid parental leave for employed workers, while advocating passionately for the same right for the self-employed. That is a patently ridiculous proposition. However, where I do agree with those members, and indeed with Labour members on the select committee as well, is that paid parental leave should be extended to the self-employed at the soonest possible opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAs I would have pointed out in the Committee stage of this debate yesterday afternoon, had the Chair permitted discussion on the amendments dealing with the issue, the Green Party would have voted for the Supplementary Order Paper put forward by Bill Gudgeon from New Zealand First, which rendered self-employed people eligible for paid parental leave. However, not only was a fiscal veto placed on Mr Gudgeon\u2019s amendment, but on top of that the Chair refused to allow any direct discussion of his Supplementary Order Paper\u2014which I found quite extraordinary. It is quite incredible that we cannot debate an amendment\u2014even one with a fiscal veto on it\u2014during the relevant Committee stage of a bill, especially when the matter under discussion is also referred to extensively in the commentary prepared by the select committee that a number of us here in the House tonight sat on. We all know that the question of paid parental leave for the self-employed was an integral part of our discussions on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAs I have said in this House and elsewhere since the introduction of the first bill, the Green Party believes that the self-employed should be able to access paid parental leave subject to the development of suitable eligibility criteria and a methodology that allows for a system equitable to those in paid employment. I have never quite understood why, given that the Accident Compensation Corporation has managed to find ways of providing cover for the self-employed as part of its equally convoluted mechanisms, the Government has found it so hard to do the same with paid parental leave. On top of that, the Department of Labour itself, in its own 2003 review and evaluation of the paid parental leave scheme, found that extending the scheme to the self-employed was in fact one of the three most frequently mentioned suggestions for improvement. This was backed up by a range of submissions, from groups as diverse as trade unions and farmers, to the select committee during the course of both paid parental leave bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EHowever, during our discussions on this issue during the Social Services Committee process this time round, the Government advised us that the Department of Labour had not yet had sufficient time to work out how extending paid parental leave to self-employed people could be made to work, given other legislative and policy priorities. The Green Party pressed the Government on this matter and we were heartened, as the commentary on the bill reports, to receive a letter from the Minister advising us formally that: \u201CPolicy development relating to the self-employed is a very high priority for me and I am committed to progressing this issue further in the near future to include self-employed parents as far as practicable.\u201D The statement forms part of the official commentary on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de64ee57b6346fd883708ad738eecf6\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: What is the \u201Cnear future\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a68eb0cac6049598bcdf9773f9bf708\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Brown that I believe that the task for all of us inside and outside the House who support this particular extension of paid parental leave is to ensure that we help keep the Minister to her word over the coming year. Although the Green Party would have voted for the New Zealand First amendment on the Table yesterday, if it had not been subject to a fiscal veto, we also know that in reality it will take time and a lot of work to develop the framework by designing eligibility criteria and a payment structure for applying the scheme to the self-employed, as the Minister indeed notes in her letter to the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe were also pleased to see other amendments made to the bill by the Minister yesterday, particularly those that mean paid parental leave will now be extended to doctors who work, for example, for more than one district health board over brief periods, as is common practice as part of their training. It made no sense that teachers who move schools were to be covered, while doctors who moved hospitals as, for example, surgical trainees were not. Women doctors, in particular, suffer from a huge student loan debt, which is only exacerbated when they are excluded from paid parental leave coverage simply because they are required to move from district health board to district health board as part of their professional training requirements. I am pleased that the Government has been flexible enough to acknowledge the reality and the inequity of this situation, and even though the improvements will impact on very few women in practice, they are women who deserve all the help they can get at this critical point in their careers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I would just like to thank and congratulate all of those who have taken part in writing and considering the bill, including the Minister and all the submitters, from whatever perspective they came. I am glad we are taking a few more steps towards paid parental leave today for more women, and men, even if we continue to lag well behind some other comparable countries. I will finish by noting a report released just a few weeks ago from PricewaterhouseCoopers in the UK, proposing that paid parental leave should be paid for 12 months: 6 weeks at 90 percent of earnings and the rest at the national minimum wage. On top of that they suggest a home-care allowance to be paid to parents who choose to stay at home to look after their children aged 12 to 24 months, with reduced rates for part-time workers. If only!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u0022044388b7ffba44bc8caaf9db39377e99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022044388b7ffba44bc8caaf9db39377e99\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak on the third reading of the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill. As we have done all along in this debate, we will be voting against this bill. The reason is that we believe it is unfair, it is discriminatory, and it increases the welfare burden, so to speak, on New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that in a democracy we expect people, and political parties in particular, to stand up for their principles. In this debate we have seen two parties who support the Government: the United Future party and the Green Party. Both parties have explained to the House why they disagree with a large part of this bill\u2014the fact that it discriminates against groups of workers, in particular. I have to say that members of those parties on our select committee raised those issues all the time, but it is a sad fact, I believe, that they are still supporting a bill that is very unfair. I think that the parties that have opposed this bill, even though they may see some merit in it, have done so on the grounds that they would rather not support bad law than go ahead and support bad law because of some other reason and privilege the major party may give them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThis bill is essentially about the right of a woman who is having a baby to choose to stay at home while that baby is young, to choose to leave her place of employment, to have this parental leave benefit, and then be free either to take the statutory 12 months\u2019 leave a woman is entitled to when she has a baby, or to stay at home permanently to look after that child. But I say to the Government that the better way to give that choice to working families is not through a welfare entitlement that favours a group of women in New Zealand, while discriminating against probably the majority of working women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EIn fact, the better way to do it would simply be to lower the tax burden on working families to let them keep more of what they earn, so that they can make those choices themselves as to whether they keep mum at home for 3 months, or whether they can afford to keep her home on a longer-term basis, which is obviously the way that New Zealand used to be. I think all of us can look back to our own childhoods and we can say that many of our mothers stayed at home while their kids were little, and it is a really sad indictment, I think, on New Zealand\u2019s high tax burden that so many working families no longer have that choice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255b150df0f9948eb815d92990a7a7d9f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225faf6990966947f8b41e78a7eb55c115\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member who keeps grunting over there would like to take a call, maybe he can explain to the House why that logic is wrong. Why is the logic wrong when we know that the average family now has to pay 46 percent of its income in taxes? That includes not just income tax, but the 34 stealth taxes brought in by Labour in its short reign. In 5 years it has brought in 34 additional taxes, levies, fees, and other types of tariff, which have taken the tax burden up so that almost half of the income of working families now goes in tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI say that that is too high, and I remind the member that a Treasury paper published earlier this year explained to the Government that if it simply took the surplus and gave most of it back\u2014not even the whole lot\u2014taxes in this country could be lowered to 20 cents in the dollar. We can just imagine what that would mean to working families, and it would not be touching any spending that the Government had already promised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ESo this is a debate about whether we have more welfare in this country, which means those working families will have an even greater tax burden as a result of the changes we are passing through the House today, or whether we should give those working families a break so that they can make the choice themselves and take responsibility for mum staying at home or not staying at home\u2014whatever they choose. I say that that is the better way to go, and that is essentially why the ACT party does not support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EWe have heard about the discrimination against many working women that this bill now brings into our law\u2014that it discriminates against the self-employed, and it discriminates against the casual worker whose work makes up a full-time job but with different employers. We have heard that this bill makes exceptions for teachers, who we know have a strong union to back them. We understand it does the same for doctors. What about nurses, who make up a huge proportion of our workforce? What about those nurses who have different employers because they are employed by different district health boards? What about cleaners? What about women who supplement their income by going out and doing the tough jobs but with a number of different employers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThis Government does not care about those people, yet I would say that many of their voters are in that category: unskilled workers who have a number of different employers. They make up a 40-hour week by grafting hard, and this Government does not care about giving them the right to this new welfare benefit that it is now promoting and providing through this House. I say that smacks of double standards. It smacks of the sorts of double standards that we in the Opposition have become accustomed to from Labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EA third reason why the ACT party does not support this bill is that it is yet another election bribe. We see that the next phase of the 14-week entitlement, which is the change from 13 weeks to 14 weeks, comes into force in December 2005. Is that not great? It means that anybody who wants to look forward to the 14-weeks\u2019 entitlement will realise they had better vote for Labour. I think that that is despicable, and that we will see a lot of that as time goes by. We will see Labour putting out more and more legislation that comes into force after the election. In my mind, that is not the honourable way to pass legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EWe then go on to the fact that this is anti-business legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210c6e36af0524577b7d44b297b37f886\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abcaf446d4384930b2d696805df0b655\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Labour members groan, but I can tell them that if any one of them had run a small business, they would know how difficult it is if a staff member takes either 3 months or a year off work\u2014and they do not know which it is. Any woman who has had a baby and who intends to take a year off work will end up taking the 3 months\u2019 paid parental leave, and who could say anything against her for doing so? But she will no longer signal to the employer that she will be away for a year. That will come after the 3 months is up. It puts a huge burden on to the small-business person, who does not know whether to hire somebody part-time through an agency for 3 months, or whether to go out and get a longer-term commitment from an employee to work for a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThere are unintended consequences in this legislation. What small business will hire a woman who it is thought might be pregnant? Now that we have brought the time limit for the entitlement down to 6 months, an employee can work for somebody for 6 months and then be entitled to the paid parental leave provisions. The limit used to be a year, so when an employer took somebody on, at least that employee would work for a year before the provisions came in. Now it is only 6 months. If an employer has a choice between a woman who may be pregnant and a man, the employer will take the man, so the unintended consequence is that this bill will discriminate against women of childbearing age.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI finish by asking this Government why it is so keen to keep in the workforce working mums who have had new babies, when we have over 110,000 women on the domestic purposes benefit\u201450,000 of them with children of school age\u2014who do not share that enthusiasm for getting into the workforce? I say that this legislation, to my mind, again smacks of a double standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcb54bcd77dc4ffe91797df30ba8cb97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcb54bcd77dc4ffe91797df30ba8cb97\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I am privileged to speak in the third reading of the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill. But it is so disappointing to follow the previous speaker who has just resumed her seat, Dr Muriel Newman, because she was talking down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EIn fact, this is a great night for many thousands of New Zealanders. This bill is about uplifting the family, and it is about providing benefits for many more people yet to come. I am glad to see that the parties opposite that are going to vote against this bill will be supportive of increasing the benefits in the future\u2014which the Government has given a commitment to look into\u2014for the self-employed and others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003ESo we look forward to that support, as we move forward. This is a great step tonight for New Zealanders\u2014men and women alike\u2014and we should be proud. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00222cea8a1293d24d719838bd2529e6fd06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cea8a1293d24d719838bd2529e6fd06\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E What a rant we heard from Georgina Beyer, the member for Wairarapa! National is indeed opposing this bill because it is discriminatory. It discriminates against the many thousands of self-employed working mothers. Labour and Georgina Beyer have blatantly decided that they will look after their own first, and so discriminate against a large section of New Zealand society who are often much worse off and who work much harder than\u2014and who will actually subsidise\u2014those whom the Government wishes this discriminatory bill to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI am sure there is no one in this House who does not recognise just how important it is to have optimal conditions for babies, young children, and their parents. All the evidence is totally clear that those years, months, and weeks following birth are absolutely vital. However, this bill is utterly inconsistent and inequitable. If indeed this bill had been brought in on full principles of equality, equitability, and affordability, and did not cause a degree of welfare dependency\u2014which indeed it has on one group rather than on another\u2014then maybe it could be supported. But we have the Labour Party grandly bringing in this so-called social good, particularly for its own supporters. Not only does this bill not help those self-employed mothers, it does not help full-time mothers. So many around the hustings have said so many times that of all the jobs in the world, parenting is probably the most difficult to do effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe notice from the commentary that: \u201CThe Bill implements Government policy to extend the duration of paid parental leave from 12 to 14 weeks \u2026\u201D, and on it goes. But when has the Minister ever explained why she has not included the self-employed? She has never done that in a detailed manner. Those women working in corner dairies and those women working on farms work just as hard as any other women. They often work harder and face much more difficult circumstances because of the very fact, particularly on farms, that they do not have the services available in the urban area. But the Minister has never ever explained to us why she has not been prepared to include them in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAgain, she talks grandly about the International Labour Organization conventions. In fact, again the commentary states: \u201COne of the policy objectives of the bill is to better align New Zealand policy with standards for the length of paid maternity leave contained in the International Labour Organisation Convention 183 on maternity protection.\u201D Well, I just happened to get hold of a newspaper article pointing out that supporters of this bill claim New Zealand is one of only three OECD countries\u2014the other two being Australia and the US\u2014that do not provide paid parental leave, and that we are out of step with 120 countries from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe. That was the argument the Labour Party was using 2 or 3 years ago. The International Labour Organization\u2019s list of 120 countries has it that women in Afghanistan are entitled to employer-funded paid parental leave at 100 percent of wages for 90 days, and that women in Zimbabwe have 90 days\u2019 employer-funded leave at 75 percent of wages\u2014the comment is: \u201CYeah, right!\u201D Here we have once again the Labour Party with its fanciful, do-good, State dependency-type of policy that indeed makes these grand statements, but that really cannot back them up when they go around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think Muriel Newman made the important point that philosophically perhaps, it would be much easier just to have a simplified lower tax system so that people could make their own choices, and so that there were direct incentives to take on the appropriate responsibility. But no, what this Labour Government insists on once again is income redistribution churning through the Inland Revenue Department, and an ever-burgeoning social welfare system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAfter all, in the ideal world all our children would be carefully planned. The stark fact in New Zealand, we understand, is that probably only about 20 to 30 percent of children are planned. Even then, hopefully, it takes a 9-month period from conception to birth in order to plan. We would hope that by far the majority of parents in the ideal optimal circumstances would indeed plan prior to conception, and do everything possible to plan and organise the arrangements that they themselves wanted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut here again with this legislation we see a discriminatory, inequitable bill that leaves out a large part of New Zealand society just as deserving as other parts, and we see the Labour Government cementing in that State dependency rather than incentivising individual responsibility. That is a huge concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note in the evaluation of the scheme that three things were suggested\u2014one of them, of course, being the extension of the scheme to the self-employed. Well, it takes an inquiry before the Labour Government is finally prepared to see that there is a great big hole in this bill. I note that there is a point where the Minister states: \u201CPolicy development relating to the self-employed is a very high priority for me and I am committed to progressing this issue further in the near future to include self-employed parents as far as practicable.\u201D What does she really mean by that? She has been silent on that for so long. In fact, I think this bill first had its genesis 2 or 3 years ago, and she has skilfully managed to neglect those who are self-employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAs the representative for Port Waikato, I see from time to time those rural women who are deeply offended by this bill. That was very much substantiated by the submission of Rural Women New Zealand to the select committee. I think it is worth making a note of their executive summary, where they stated: \u201CThe Government\u2019s approach to parental leave typifies the fundamental problem with the policy framework introduced over recent years that is slowly and steadily returning New Zealand to unproductive State dependency. The Government appears to believe that most people in families cannot think or fend for themselves, and is actively discouraging and penalising those who seek to be self-sufficient and those who plan and prepare for the future.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWell, that is the view of Rural Women New Zealand, and it is quintessentially the expression of those who have been left out by this discriminating Labour Government. Seventy-five percent of paid people working in the farming sector are self-employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022836c7aa78f254459baa8504890668552\u0022\u003EOpposition Member\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222867284454fa4055a47d99ace556a167\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Seventy-five percent of them. Those are the very people who do not have the services enjoyed by many living in the urban sector\u2014by many in the public service who the Government is so concerned will vote for it. I notice that rural women also say that if the bill is passed, a significant number of women and men will continue to be ineligible to receive statutory-funded paid parental leave, although they will be required to meet the cost of providing it for others\u2014there is a substantial list of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002228686671a6d04119b785bf7b971b5ab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228686671a6d04119b785bf7b971b5ab1\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I thought a Government member was going to take a call to explain why Labour members are supporting this bill, but clearly I cannot rely on them. I thought that sooner or later one of them would stand and say that he or she fully understands this bill and what it is all about. What a guilt trip United Future and the Greens have had. What a guilt trip! Those members spent at least half their speaking time apologising for not supporting the self-employed being covered in this bill. I say to United Future members, and they should take this on board, that when Judy Turner made her contribution she spoke as if this was a new bill\u2014a new concept. But this legislation came in 2 or 3 years ago. It just increases the entitlements and makes a few more people able to receive them. But the bill ignores the self-employed. We were promised 2 or 3 years ago that the case for the self-employed was a good case, and it would be addressed forthwith. How long do we have to wait? Nobody told us\u2014not one single person\u2014mentioned how soon\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0e2aa55a8da4c3f9fd46b5739350992\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: It won\u2019t happen under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4b73f08c14c28bc531acc9345d7c6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I tend to agree with the member; it will not happen under this Government. Part 2 comes in on 1 December next year. Will the self-employed be covered by then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b342ab3a1a434d6bb6ee9faa259859e5\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cbfb903197c4a95af9cee26c810a755\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think they will. Yet the Minister says the Government will give urgent priority to the case for the self-employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8de6da8c69548e48a358376e7cbdbaf\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d89fbf455dd4621a119ddfc27708bc2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, give us a time frame. We have been sitting, waiting for 3 years. New Zealand First would have supported this bill if it covered the self-employed. They pay their taxes, they work for this country, they are the backbone of this country in many, many respects, and they are entitled to be covered by this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel, during the 1 minute she spoke, or it might have been 1 minute 10 seconds\u2014I do not want to take anything away from the member\u2014said that the reason self-employed people are not covered is that some of them will want to work. Well, so do employed people. If employed people work and do not want the parental leave they do not get it. That is the same with the self-employed, I would assume. I would assume that that is fair\u2014if one works, one does not get the leave. I cannot imagine a woman on $200,000 or $300,000 a year taking paid parental leave. But she would be entitled to it, although a self-employed person on a modest wage is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESo the argument might be that the Government does not have the money. Well, let us have a look at that. In 1999 the total tax take was $33.1 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220566146393e44ee78393160604fbabde\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: Surely not!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022bb239a67f40acb31fb6ad7ee06a63\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It was $33.1 billion in 1999. Guess what it was in June this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234830c5744fd44159438cfc9ea377caa\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ed122b6c304bab88f9ecd69eccc5c4\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It was $45.9 billion. That is an increase of nearly 40 percent, but the Government cannot afford to give a little bit back to the self-employed. This is a benevolent Government? Like hell it is. I tell those members over there that they should be ashamed of themselves. Worse still, if United Future and the Greens had stuck to the principles they espoused in this House and said: \u201CIf the self-employed are not in, we\u2019re not with it.\u201D, we would have got the self-employed covered. We would have got the cover if they had come across and said: \u201CWe will not embrace this bill unless it covers the self-employed.\u201D We would have achieved that target.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c97f88eafc3489a903b2b5262c777c8\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: They are lapdogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022701c96658cf448acb67a6aeca4c0923b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As my honourable friend says, they are lapdogs. [Interruption] But that is not our only concern. Let me enlighten members a little further\u2014the members who know so much about the bill they cannot take a call to explain what they know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have a letter written to the Minister of Health, Mrs King, from a young lady doctor, and I will read a paragraph. \u201CI am a doctor. I have worked full time within the public hospital system since graduation\u20145 years. I have recently come to Wellington from Whangarei. Prior to this I was employed within the Auckland region by both the Auckland District Health Board and Counties-Manukau District Health Board. From Wellington I\u2019m being sent to Christchurch in December.\u201D If that lady gets pregnant she does not qualify for paid parental leave because she will not have served the appropriate time under one district health board. In other words every health board is regarded as a separate employer. She is sent from one health board to the other, but she does not qualify for paid parental leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIs that the way this Government operates? No, not for teachers, and it is stated in this letter:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E \u201CI understand that teachers from most public schools are employed by the Department of Education and are therefore still eligible for parental leave, even when they have chosen to change schools.\u201D The doctor who is sent from one hospital to another, from one district health board to another, does not qualify. The teacher who goes from one school of his or her own choice to another does qualify. Is that fair I ask members over there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ae27db36bd247f0a6f081084ace7eb7\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Definitely not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a653a140bb364bdb942e7c869fb06fe5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is definitely not fair. That is why New Zealand First will not be supporting this bill. We support the concept. We supported the first bill 2 or 3 years ago, and we were looking forward to supporting this bill. However, we will not be part of the discriminatory-type regime that this Government is imposing. It is playing favourites here\u2014favourites to its supposed friends, and it is leaving out other people, quite unfairly. The people I am referring to all pay tax in fair measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227302d71232254eaf9f4c9609e9623ad0\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t pay union fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c58111b1b7e40399492d13386aae9d7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member says that they do not pay union fees. I think that doctors do pay union fees. [Interruption] I cannot argue that point. I do not want to put this argument on the basis of union versus non-union. This is selective legislation by the Government. Where it thinks it will get votes, it will push it through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EUnited Future members are silly enough to vote against their principles. They know they can stand firm. Many, many times they have stood in this House and said that they support the self-employed and how important the self-employed are to this country. It is not just farming people, but the small-business person who runs a garage, runs a shop, or whatever. They are the people whom United Future said it supports. But what do United Future members do when they have to front up to a bill like this? They roll over and say: \u201CNever mind, Government. We\u2019ll take care of them in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years. Just let them keep paying taxes so that other people can benefit from it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis legislation is totally unfair. It would not be so bad if it were a first attempt. New Zealand First lived with the first attempt to exclude the self-employed. That was in 2001 or 2000. The first bill was introduced about 3 years ago. It has taken the Government 3 years, and it still cannot get there. I say, Mr Speaker, that New Zealand First can fix it. You might have heard this before, and I think you have by the smile on your face. New Zealand First can fix it, and it will. It will fix this legislation to make it fair for every New Zealander who should qualify. We are ashamed that this legislation will go through tonight in the way it is, and that is why we are voting against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf the Government had only listened to my honourable colleague Bill Gudgeon\u2019s amendment and taken it on board, it would have been a different kettle of fish. We would have been very, very supportive. However, the Government refused point-blank to give any consideration to the self-employed, and the issues concerning doctors that have been covered tonight by myself, and the complaints from nurses, raised by Muriel Newman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis is poor legislation when it comes to New Zealanders and I am ashamed that this Government is pushing it through like this. New Zealand First will not be supporting it, and I say that with a heavy heart. Basically, it is the sort of legislation that we should be providing for all New Zealanders, not just a selection of them. I rest my case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5165e4884374df6bef984b27e6ba2cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5165e4884374df6bef984b27e6ba2cd\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a very brief call in this debate. One of the things in politics is that we cannot get everything done in 5 minutes. Members have principles and things they believe in, and we are always trying to improve things for all New Zealanders. This bill is a good example of that. It extends parental leave to another 3,500 people in New Zealand. The glass on this issue is half full, not half empty. However, because we cannot do absolutely everything in this one piece of legislation, Opposition parties say \u201CLet\u2019s have none of it.\u201D They will vote down this bill even though we have extended paid parental leave to 3,500 people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EOf course the Government would like to take this further, and of course we are open to considering extending paid parental leave into the future. This is not the end of the process. This is the middle part of it. It is another good piece of legislation where we invest in strong public services, which the Labour-Progressive Government firmly supports. Don Brash would unwind paid parental leave for all Kiwis. From tonight, we are including another 3,500 mothers in this provision, and we will keep on marching, because we believe in keeping this country strong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022af961a1c790f458b85679f2898778969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af961a1c790f458b85679f2898778969\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E We have just heard from that member over there that another 3,500 people will be paid parental leave. What about the rest? What about the self-employed people who will miss out in this legislation? It is all very well that he says it is part of the process to take a little bit here and a little bit there. I am telling the Government that until the legislation affects everybody, and everybody has the benefit of it, we will vote against it. We will vote against it because it is absolutely discriminatory. Where is the equity here? We are a nation of small businesses. We have 292,000 small businesses. That is the mums and dads out there who are working hard trying to make things work. Shortly we will be looking at the taxation bill in the Committee stage, and I will have a bit to say when we get there. However, the backbone of the economy, those people who put in the hard yards, make the investments, and if they happen to be self-employed, do not qualify under this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe Government says that it has to look after small business. I am absolutely ashamed of United Future, which is meant to stand up for those people. I hope that Mr Alexander takes a call, not in this debate, but in the debate on the taxation bill, because that is important as well. A party that can support this legislation\u2014which is inequitable, which is discriminatory\u2014and wants to support the Government on it, when we could actually bring this down, is a nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhat will the Government do? The 3,500 extra people the previous member just spoke about is fine, but what about the rest of us? What about the rest of those families? I shall tell members what is happening in business. In particular, small-business people are saying that they will not employ somebody who will possibly want to start a family. That is what they are saying. So who will miss out? It is those people whom we should be trying to help. In the real world\u2014and Labour members do not know about the real world; they have never been in the real world; they have never put their money at risk, so they would not know\u2014it is about the bottom line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI can tell members that small businesses cannot afford to carry people where there is no commitment that they will come back. They could hold a job open for 12 months. This is what happens in the real world, which they do not know about. It is about survival and it is very, very difficult for small businesses with these compliance costs. All this is, is another compliance cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe bill states that a person has to work for somebody for only 6 months. It used to be 12 months. At least with 12 months there was a bit of flexibility, but when it is only 6 months that a person has to work for somebody, that person will qualify for 12 weeks now, but that person has had to work for someone for only 6 months. That is absolutely intolerable. This is another huge compliance cost with red tape that this Government is so fond of getting involved in, and it is another nail in its coffin. Not only that, the policy also applies if people are going to adopt. Many people do not realise that this will apply not only if they are having their own child but also applies to those people who adopt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIf I take someone on to work in my business, what will I do? I will not ask whether that person wishes to have a family, but I would probably look at just taking on a male. But, of course, how it works is that the wife or the partner may work in a person\u2019s business, decide that he or she will have a family, and will get paid parental leave, but does not need to take the whole period of 14 weeks, or 12 weeks as it is now. It could be that the husband or partner would work for me and would be able to pick up a couple of those weeks. Some think they are very smart, because they will not take on a woman specifically, because she might want to have a family, and what actually might happen is that I could be caught out as well if the husband also qualifies. A lot of businesses today are being caught out on that, because they do not understand how this legislation works. That is an absolute indictment on a Government that has no understanding of what makes communities work, no understanding about small business in particular, yet it wants to foist on us an extra couple of weeks of compliance costs, and reduce, of course, the time period in which a person will become eligible. If the Government had included everybody, then it might be a different ball game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E Because when we look at who is ineligible to qualify for the 14 weeks\u2019 leave, it is self-employed women and those who job-share; it is women in casual employment, either part-time or full-time; it is women who cannot find, or choose not to engage in, formal employment, including women who choose to stop work to have a family; it is women who, for many reasons, have had a new employer within the last 6 months, and women who cannot have children or choose not to have children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI repeat the point I made right at the beginning that this legislation is discriminatory. It is not equitable, because not all women qualify for 14 weeks\u2019 leave. National will oppose the bill. We have voted against these matters before. We certainly oppose the bill tonight. This Government should be looking after businesses, because they are the wealth creators in our communities. But, no, the Government says it has to look after these particular workers. The next item on the Order Paper is a taxation bill, and the same sort of arguments will be very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand relies on the productive sector and on the growth of small communities. That is where the wealth of the country comes from. It comes from those 295,000 small businesses that employ 92 percent of all employees. Those self-employed people, the ones who put their dollars in and want a return on their dollars, are being told by this Government: \u201CWe\u2019re going to sock you one with this, along with the Holidays Act, the Employment Law Reform Act, and increases in excise tax on fuel because of Kyoto.\u201D However, this legislation will prove to be the nail in the coffin for the Government, because it shows it is uncaring and does not understand what makes communities work. I must say we are disappointed that United Future is supporting the bill, because there was a chance that we could defeat it. The bill is discriminatory and inequitable, and the Government will pay for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022edfb46b2afd243619729cc5d82a3c22a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022204588113bfb4719bc85b95bcceaff03\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates, Venture Capital and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c55d94fbe0f6410ea841a7b3f8f03029\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000617\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 2 November.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b69fdc10df9f49869661219b8560ff34\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Income Tax Act 1994 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00221c4d197b97e747419df38fd74a238a2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c4d197b97e747419df38fd74a238a2b\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 is a big part of the bill, and we intend to take several calls. I start with clause 4, \u201CNon-residents\u2019 exempt income\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe Labour Government continues to trumpet about how much it understands the importance of attracting foreign investment into venture capital in New Zealand. We all know that the minority Labour Government continues to talk about an innovative framework to support high-tech industry in New Zealand, but all the high-tech industries, or start-up companies, do have high levels of risk connected with them, and usually in other types of countries venture capital funds are there for that type of investment. The Labour Government, once again, has come up with a half-baked idea, in terms of clause 4. It thinks it will make everybody feel good, even though 100 percent of the submitters to the Finance and Expenditure Committee said that clause 4 is a very, very small step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIn order to attract venture capital into New Zealand, first, there needs to be a limited liability partnership structure, and, second, the list of so-called foreign countries needs to be extended to the grey list. At the moment the list that qualifies in terms of clause 4, whereby the sale of shares would not be treated as dividends but as capital gain, is extremely limited. When we ask the officials what is happening about the limited liability partnership structure that foreign investors would want, and also about a common regime between New Zealand and Australia, they say they are still working on it. We suggest that they just finish working on the whole structure, so it would then at least show a genuine understanding of the venture capital sector, and would become really useful to attract investors. We realise that this is just a political game by the Government, in terms of announcing this legislation and selling it by saying it will attract venture capital. But there is actually no substance within this legislation. Last week in the Sunday Star-Times there was an article from the venture capital sector, stating that this taxation bill will do nothing to attract any additional foreign investment into New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI have spent a bit of time expanding on this matter in order to demonstrate that day in and day out in this Parliament, just as with the bill that we have finished debating, this Government continues to bring into this Chamber legislation that has half-baked ideas, without understanding the whole concept of getting New Zealand to become competitive in a taxation framework that is transparent, that has low taxation rates, and that is easy to comply with. Instead the Government likes to play favourites, and it keeps saying that today it is doing something to attract venture capital. But submitters to the select committee made it very clear that we have not even set up the right type of vehicle to attract that foreign investment into New Zealand. I use that example to demonstrate that Parliament is continually being presented with legislation that on the surface appears to address an issue, but that in substance does not. Submitter after submitter told us that this bill has no substance.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022afee4f4b01684397a278b02405b0ef5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afee4f4b01684397a278b02405b0ef5d\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I disagree with giving certain non-residents a tax advantage on profits from the sale of shares in unlisted New Zealand companies. That disadvantages New Zealand - resident venture capital investors. It will not attract the appropriate capital needed for the purposes for which Part 2 was created. Even the proponents of this part say that it will not attract the capital needed for the purposes it was created for. We have a Government that allows certain non-residents a tax advantage from shares. This Government is selling off Powerco. This Government is paying for hip-hop trips and spending millions of dollars on the arts. Instead of the Government giving non-residents a tax advantage on profits from the sale of shares in unlisted New Zealand companies, why does it not give the small Kiwi battler a go? That is what we in New Zealand First are asking. Why does the Government not give the small-business owner or the small exporter a go? Why not give them a tax break? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EIf we look at the example of the Republic of Ireland, we can see how it helped its exporters. The Republic of Ireland exports $48,000 per man, woman, and child, compared with New Zealand\u2019s measly $8,000, approximately, for every man, woman, and child. Singapore lacks resources when compared with a beautiful, resource-rich country like New Zealand, yet it exports about $60,000 per man, woman, and child, compared with our $8,000 per man, woman, and child. I say, and New Zealand First says, that instead of giving non-residents a tax advantage on profits from the sale of shares in unlisted New Zealand companies, we should give the Kiwi battler, the small-business owner, a go\u2014because even proponents of the bill say that it will not attract the capital that is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EThere is another issue that I want to address. I see the United Future member Gordon Copeland in the Chamber. As I said during the second reading debate on this bill, United Future has put in a minority report on this legislation. We note that United Future voted for the bill during all stages, yet it has written a minority report, as we see in the bill. New Zealand First says to the United Future members that this is their last chance. We will give them another chance to vote the bill down. This is their chance to vote against all the things they said they have a problem with, like increasing the taxation thresholds, and so on. We say that this is their last chance to do that. We say to this Government and to United Future that instead of spending $21 million on a propaganda campaign for the Working for Families package, and instead of giving non-residents a tax advantage on their profits from the sale of shares in unlisted New Zealand companies, we should be helping our exporters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EThere is another issue I want to discuss in relation to Part 2. It was brought up last night, I think, and it is the issue of the taxation of M\u0101ori authorities. When that provision was first put into legislation, New Zealand First, under my name, put forward a Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002209094fc03ca34097a5f6edb963775e12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209094fc03ca34097a5f6edb963775e12\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party opposes the Taxation (Annual Rates, Venture Capital and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. I draw to the attention of the Committee the fact that we have written a minority report in respect of this bill. It is one sentence long: \u201CThe ACT Party view is that adopting a low flat rate of tax, below those of our trading partners, would overcome much of the problems this bill seeks to solve.\u201D Of course, the reason this bill is here is that our tax code is extraordinarily complicated, because there are all sorts of different tax rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI turn my attention to the complications the Government has got itself into by introducing race into our tax system. It is extraordinary that a M\u0101ori authority pays a lower tax rate for the same activity than other New Zealanders are forced to pay, and, of course, that has led to all sorts of problems. I refer, in particular, to clauses 26, 27, and 34. One of the problems will be ascertaining who is a M\u0101ori. The Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe, should give us some guidance on that question. I understand there have been people in this House who have decided they are M\u0101ori and then have decided they are not\u2014they are not quite sure. Under clause 26 people can just feel that they are M\u0101ori, and after they look at the tax rates they can decide they will set themselves up as a M\u0101ori authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e137080236445999478310f9072b4f\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: You want to be M\u0101ori!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bddd2919f5b74074bcd561edde46e4e6\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand First member says that, and I draw to the attention of the Committee the fact that if we look at the census, we see that in the last three censuses the number of M\u0101ori in New Zealand has increased faster than is biologically possible. People may wonder why anyone would want to say he or she is M\u0101ori. The reason that people want to do so is that M\u0101ori pay lower tax. They also become eligible for a whole range of benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c137d7ea90ee4e9eb6c5726943340b93\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Not immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022100df4fc083143bdb88efa4c4dc1f230\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Not immigration, no. That is the sort of mess the Government gets itself into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI am not actually opposed to M\u0101ori authorities paying a lower rate of tax; I just want everyone else to be able to pay that same lower rate of tax. What I find interesting about this Government is that Dr Cullen has many, many reasons as to why average New Zealanders should not have the benefit of lower tax. He even has the United Future party, which supports the Government, pointing out that there has been a bit of inflation and that people are paying higher rates of tax. The United Future members cannot actually bring themselves to vote in that way, but they do make that point. In that respect\u2014flip-flopping\u2014they have got as far as that. I say to the Committee that it should look at the elections in the United States today. Has lower tax resulted in the rejection of the Bush/Cheney Government? No, it has not. We have Government members who may think that the public likes paying extra tax. The Labour Party actually has contempt for its own voters and supporters. Labour members say they are in favour of them, but what is their record? Their record is that they believe they can spend money better than the public can, and they think they have the right to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair to take a call and tell the Committee, first, who is a M\u0101ori. I ask him to tell us about all the problems of deciding whether someone is M\u0101ori. He may have some personal experiences he wants to share with the Committee. Then he can tell us how people decide whether they are a M\u0101ori authority under clause 26. That is now an important fiscal question, because if a person decides he or she is M\u0101ori, that person can pay a lower rate of tax than non-M\u0101ori. That is what the Government has put into the tax code, so it has a duty to tell us who is a M\u0101ori. I would be really interested to hear from Mr Cunliffe, who, I understand, has personally looked into that question. Members may know that the number of M\u0101ori MPs in this Parliament keeps going up and down. It was up to 20; now it is 19. Apparently members have changed their minds yet again. That is a matter of humour here in Parliament, but it is now a matter of fiscal importance in our legislation, and I think Mr Cunliffe has a duty to explain to us, as he is the Minister in the chair, how one decides whether a person qualifies as a M\u0101ori authority. Then he can tell us why M\u0101ori authorities should pay a lower rate of tax than other people, especially when some of them are amongst New Zealand\u2019s largest companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022529086fbe0184b37bffb1501a8d75ccc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022529086fbe0184b37bffb1501a8d75ccc\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to follow the Hon Richard Prebble because he makes a lot of sense. There is an old saying that is certainly appropriate to socialists. It goes like this: \u201CIf it moves tax it, if it keeps moving tax it a bit more, and if it stops moving subsidise it to get it moving again.\u201D That old clich\u00E9 has been around for a long time, but it is as relevant today, with a Government like this, as it has ever been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E I say to the Hon Richard Prebble, who has just resumed his seat, that there is one plus in having a discriminatory tax regime for M\u0101ori, and it relates to a bit of an experiment going on in this country at the moment. There has been a lot of argument about whether lower taxes would increase growth. Dr Cullen over there, with a PhD in history\u2014certainly not a PhD in tax rates\u2014has said that they would not increase growth. But let us look at what has happened since we have had two tax rates for two different ethnic groups. The M\u0101ori incorporations, with a 19 percent tax rate, have had growth that has outstripped that of any other kind of business in this country, particularly in their farming. In farming, M\u0101ori incorporations\u2014on a 19c tax rate\u2014have had incredible growth compared with the average growth of the rest of farmers, who pay up to 39c in the dollar. [Interruption] I ask that member\u2014look at the Topp Twins sitting in the whips\u2019 chairs over there, heckling away\u2014to study the facts, then come back to Parliament and tell me I am wrong. Have M\u0101ori incorporations with a lower tax rate\u2014which will, of course, be reinforced under this piece of legislation\u2014had strong growth rates exceeding those of any other corporation or entity in this country? The answer is absolutely yes, they have. That is absolute evidence that lower tax rates will create higher growth rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of other points in Part 2 that need to be touched on. One is the fact that the tax rate for horticultural investment is going to be improved. That is a plus. I say good on the people of Hawke\u2019s Bay, who, clearly, lobbied the member who lives there\u2014not their local member but the member who lives there, who happens to be Dr Michael Cullen\u2014to get a special rate. Obviously, Michael Cullen is thinking of retiring to the Hawke\u2019s Bay and this is the \u201Csmooth the way for Michael into the Hawke\u2019s Bay\u201D clause. Good on them for getting it! But why is that rate not applied to all agricultural, land-based industries? Let us look at farm machinery. We all know that when we invest in modern agricultural techniques and equipment we get stronger growth rates and higher productivity. Why are the depreciation rates for farm machinery in general not taken into account in this piece of legislation? Why was that left out? Who knows; how would we ever know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ELet us look at the depreciation rates on things like planting new pasture, and on dairy conversions\u2014a lot of which are going on in my colleague\u2019s Rakaia area. What has happened to them? The socialists have said they are not going to have people planting new grass cultivars that achieve higher levels of production. They are not going to have that; they are going to tax them. They are now going to make people depreciate that over a 15-year period instead of claiming depreciation in the first year as they have always been able to do. [Interruption] The Minister who is carping away as usual should take the call and explain to Parliament tonight how that helps the Prime Minister\u2019s mission statement in her speech from the throne: \u201CWe will be about creating higher growth rates in New Zealand.\u201D How will it help in that regard? I am curious to find that out, and I am sure anybody listening is. The answer is that it clearly will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask the Committee tonight why we do not reduce all tax rates to the level that the M\u0101ori incorporations are enjoying. It has been demonstrated overwhelmingly to Parliament that that creates stronger growth. It is there for us to see. Other farming is not growing at the same rate. So why not reduce the whole tax base to 19c in the dollar, which is what the M\u0101ori incorporations pay? Instead of doing that, one of the very first things Dr Michael Cullen did was put it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022dac4094aa7824fa2a98c8da043f19036\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dac4094aa7824fa2a98c8da043f19036\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0be24b3f77148159629ee86e3845b08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0be24b3f77148159629ee86e3845b08\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to say how disappointed I am in the Government for vetoing my amendment to Part 2. [Interruption] Is Richard Prebble disappointed as well? Good. I was looking forward to his support. I know that the ACT party is very keen on encouraging New Zealanders to save for their retirement, and would therefore, I am sure, have supported our amendment to Part 2. I would have hoped that other parties in the House would be so kind as to do so as well, so that New Zealanders, particularly those earning less than $38,000 a year, would have had an incentive to save for their retirement. In fact, even those earning up to $60,000 a year deserve an incentive to save for their retirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWhat incentive do they deserve? They deserve exactly the same incentive that all the members in this Chamber have. We are part of a very privileged group of people in New Zealand, thanks to the Labour Government. When the Labour Government brought in the 39 percent marginal tax rate on income it kept the specified superannuation contribution withholding tax rate at 33 percent, which means that all of us in this Chamber get a 6 percent tax incentive to save for our retirement. I thank the Government for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EBut I do not thank it for initially penalising all of the people earning less than $38,000 a year by taxing them at 33 percent no matter what their marginal tax rates were. After many years of pressure\u2014I call it Chinese water torture: drip, drip, drip\u2014the Government finally succumbed and removed that discriminatory regime, and it has now set the specified superannuation contribution withholding tax rate at an employee\u2019s marginal tax rate. I congratulate the Government on doing that, but it deserves a brickbat for not extending the very privileged tax status that we all have, and that all other people who enjoy an income of more than $60,000 a year have. The Government deserves a brickbat for not extending that incentive to everyone earning less than $60,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThat is why I am so disappointed that the Labour Government has refused to allow my amendment to stand. It would have been a sensible amendment, and would have been very consistent with the Government\u2019s claims that it wants to encourage people to save for their retirement. But, of course, as with many things with this Government, it says one thing and does another. The Government is refusing to help the very people who elected it. It is the workers of this country who voted for Labour\u2014particularly blue-collar workers, people who earn less than $60,000 a year\u2014but they have absolutely no incentive to save for their retirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThat is why it is not surprising that fewer than a quarter of a million New Zealanders are currently members of subsidised superannuation funds. That is an indictment not just on the Labour Government but on successive Governments. The number of New Zealanders in subsidised superannuation funds was over 300,000 in 1990, and that number has dropped by over 60,000 since then. That is not only sad but economically disastrous. It can be seen coming through in the Reserve Bank figures. Members just need to go to the bank\u2019s September Monetary Policy Statement to see that it is projecting negative savings rates of 11 percent for the 2006 year. A household savings rate of minus 11 percent is not good news for New Zealand\u2014it is very bad news\u2014and the Government could be taking a first step by backing our amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EBut let us not stop there; let us get into some serious incentives for saving. We look forward to seeing what the Stobo report has to say. We hope it will look at where the t\u2019s and the e\u2019s are in the \u201Ctaxed/taxed/exempt\u201D regime. We think it is about time the Government seriously looked at making contributions exempt so that they are deducted from gross income, and, to compensate for that, taxing the money that members of those schemes withdraw at the point of retirement. Along the way, it should make the middle \u201Ct\u201D a lower-case \u201Ct\u201D, if one likes, by taxing the earnings of superannuation funds at 21 percent, then deducting the tax paid by members from their final payout at the point of withdrawal. That is the sort of incentive we need to be making to encourage people to save for their retirement, and it would give the Government the added advantage of tax deferral, because, quite clearly, the Government does not need the money now, given the surplus that it is running, but it will need it in 20 to 50 years\u2019 time when the current crop of workers will retire and the Government will be short of income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0c21025142c44ca890f4602cc3d1bd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0c21025142c44ca890f4602cc3d1bd7\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I note that the Government is calling for closure motions. We have just started to debate Part 2. We have had five speakers on Part 2, which has 65 clauses in it. Part 5 has the highest number of clauses, with 90. I am seeking from you that we be given a fair go on this legislation, which is very important to the well-being of all New Zealanders. The Opposition has a number of members who wish to take calls on this legislation during the Committee stage, and I would ask that you take that into account before closure motions are accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228425ece37e1d47fcb7c4b339da557b96\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairperson\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202192069fcb4e82b98db84d64e6e849\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b86cf1497a411689df024017d71470\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to say that I note that the junior Opposition whip is developing a habit, when Government members seek the call, of giving his view of the world on it. It is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf61d0b0901448e91b65bedd4654062\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I will reply to Mr Tisch. Thank you for bringing that to my attention, but we have had far more speakers than you indicated. National has had five speakers. Part 1 was, in fact, a much bigger part than this one. Albeit it did not have as many clauses, it was the most important part of the bill. I am quite aware of what is needed here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00227635c790ba464a088f833ba5692d946d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227635c790ba464a088f833ba5692d946d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022570aa0df16674460ab23aec5607763dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022570aa0df16674460ab23aec5607763dc\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate getting the call, because this is a very important bill and I believe that this is a very, very important part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister in the chair a question and to see what his response is. Before I was shut off last time, I was starting to elaborate on the fact that when the Government first introduced the 19.5 percent tax rate for certain M\u0101ori authorities I had introduced a Supplementary Order Paper to make that rate available to all New Zealand organisations or outfits similar to the concept that the Government had put in the legislation. The question I will ask the Minister, and I am sure he is able to answer it, is whether, if I introduce that same Supplementary Order Paper again, it will go to the vote or be subject to the financial veto. That is a question I am hoping the Minister will answer for me because I think it is very important that the Government addresses this issue and at least fronts up to the fact that it was a very reasonable Supplementary Order Paper that I put up on behalf of New Zealand First to make this tax advantage available to all New Zealand authorities of a similar type in a similar circumstance. Instead of the Government spending taxpayers\u2019 money on a whole lot of other issues and projects like the arts, hip-hop trips, or $21 million on advertising the Government\u2019s Working for Families package, it could put more money in the pockets of New Zealand authorities that would be available to all New Zealand races, not just to M\u0101ori. We do not have a problem with M\u0101ori authorities having this tax break\u2014we are for it. But we also want to make it available to all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EAs well as allowing more money to be put indirectly into the pockets of New Zealanders by allowing my Supplementary Order Paper, the Government could also be helping couples get into their first houses. That is another issue, but it is by the by. I am just hoping the Minister will be able to answer my question. If I put up a Supplementary Order Paper making this tax concession available to all New Zealanders, will the Minister veto it with his powers of financial veto?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002270dd4c0dbab145fa9787366f1a15cc3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270dd4c0dbab145fa9787366f1a15cc3f\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u00220f60ef5e9eae4a42bd4568ea17ee7dd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f60ef5e9eae4a42bd4568ea17ee7dd2\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I take pleasure in rising on behalf of the ACT party to speak on this Taxation (Annual Rates, Venture Capital and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Because I am not on the Finance and Expenditure Committee I have a number of questions that I would like to ask the Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI am aware that the United Future party has put forward some amendments to the tax bill that go for lower taxes, I understand. I want to clarify whether United Future has put in an amendment to introduce capital gains tax, because I know that Mr Copeland has a particular interest in having a capital gains tax in New Zealand. Maybe the Minister would like to take a call to clarify that. I know he has been in contact with the Minister of Finance over this issue. Hearing from the Minister would put our minds at rest, because it would be a change for New Zealand to have a capital gains tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister also to address a second issue, which is one that the Hon Richard Prebble raised in his contribution. It is what the Government\u2019s definition of a M\u0101ori is. Clause 26, \u201CElection to become a Maori authority\u201D, states that \u201CA person who elects to become a Maori authority becomes a Maori authority\u2014\u201D, but then it does not appear to define what it is one has to do to become a M\u0101ori authority. I think many New Zealanders have real concerns about legislation based on race being in place. This bill is cementing that in place, yet there is no definition. I remember that this question of what actually a M\u0101ori is has been raised a number of times in the period that I have been in Parliament. For voting purposes, if one says that one feels like a M\u0101ori, one can go on the M\u0101ori roll.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a6c4750d39f4578bbcc32173e52859b\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister feel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224072df171217407d92a7e8f95e523869\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, how does the Minister feel about that sort of definition? Maybe the Minister would like to clarify whether, if any authority decided for the purposes of income tax that it wanted to be a M\u0101ori authority, there any rules, regulations, or provisions that it would have to abide by, or is it OK just to tick the box and say: \u201CI feel M\u0101ori, because then I can get a lower tax rate.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI think this is a serious issue. This is the Committee stage and there is a Minister in the chair. The purpose of having the Minister in the chair is to address issues raised in the Committee stage; otherwise, this debate is a farce. So far I have not heard the Minister take a call. This is a serious issue. Either he knows the answer and is refusing to tell it to Opposition members, or else he does not know the answer. But he has his officials sitting right next to him, so I would suggest to the Minister that if he does not know\u2014it sounds like he does not\u2014he should ask his officials, seek some advice, then explain to the Committee whether an authority has to do more than simply feel that it is M\u0101ori to be able to qualify for and gain a lower tax rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E The ACT party did put in a minority report that advocated a low flat tax. I remind the Minister that Treasury produced a paper late last year, which came to light this year, that explained that if the Labour Government simply gave back to families its surplus\u2014the amount of money it overtaxes New Zealand working families\u2014we could reduce our tax rate to 20c in the dollar. Let us just imagine the incentive it would bring to New Zealand to have a 20c flat tax rate; most of the provisions of this bill we could simply chuck in the rubbish bin. Our tax laws are so complicated because the taxes that this Government has put in place have made taxation in New Zealand more complex still. The average family pays 46 percent of its wages in taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2122373f21e417c840489857f731c7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2122373f21e417c840489857f731c7c\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0d2dee9dad14be180925a299d433eb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0d2dee9dad14be180925a299d433eb6\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Whip\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Before you give the call, I point out that United Future has yet to make any contribution to this debate, at all. I would like to speak on this part, if possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb0a2e46254c4f288fd23f5a81e49c3c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Gordon Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b488929ad1dd42bc82283ccee1888882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b488929ad1dd42bc82283ccee1888882\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I was not intending to take a call on this part, but I must say I find it very, very disappointing in the extreme that Muriel Newman continues to advise members of a completely wrong bit of information\u2014I am being parliamentary here, because I know that we are not allowed to use other words in this place. I have already officially informed this House of that on another occasion, and the rule of this House is that my word must be accepted, but that does not seem to make one iota of difference to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ELet me make United Future\u2019s position clear. Not only have we never advocated a capital gains tax but we have no policy in that regard. I have never advocated a capital gains tax in this country. In fact, on the contrary, I am on the record both publicly and privately as advocating that a capital gains tax should not henceforth apply to superannuation fund earnings. Superannuation funds at the moment pay capital gains tax if shares and bonds are traded. I have made it clear that it is our policy\u2014and I have been an advocate for it in forums in which ACT members have also participated with me\u2014to remove capital gains tax from superannuation fund savings, so that they would be on a level playing field with other elements of the New Zealand tax system to which no capital gains tax applies. I put it on the record that that is the position of United Future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u0022af7edd6f93344fa1bef833d956a36875\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af7edd6f93344fa1bef833d956a36875\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table an official document relating to Mr Copeland\u2019s request, in a discussion with Dr Cullen, for a capital gains tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f2278f25b2046a1bbbf4db3deda2812\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be taken. Is there any objection? There is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022f045020df9e647eca9ba9ed5d3adc558\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f045020df9e647eca9ba9ed5d3adc558\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002266f9b33fcc6841c7a51d27090800e1f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266f9b33fcc6841c7a51d27090800e1f5\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I have not yet had an opportunity to take part in this debate, so I have come down here to the Chamber tonight and listened very carefully to the arguments that have been put forward. I have found myself agreeing with most speakers, with some notable exceptions. The contribution from Shane Ardern I found to be particularly enlightening. The taxation system that is now in place in this country is terribly complex. I would have thought that this bill would be an opportunity for the Government to do something to try to alleviate the huge taxation burden imposed on hard-working Kiwis. Mr Ardern mentioned an old saying: \u201CIf it moves, tax it.\u201D, and he had an iteration of that. Well, there is another iteration of that, which I want to share with members: \u201CIf it moves, tax it, and if it still doesn\u2019t move, kick it until it does, and then tax it.\u201D That is exactly what this Government is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMichael Cullen is held up to us as someone who is fiscally responsible, because he skites about a surplus of $7.4 billion. To anyone who has a half-reasonable understanding of fiscal matters, that is not something to brag about. In fact, Michael Cullen is being fiscally irresponsible. New Zealanders need tax relief. We have an unlikely ally on that in a member of the Government. John Tamihere believes that we should have tax relief, as does the Opposition. Strangely enough, he is a very strong proponent of the ACT policy of flatter taxation. In fact, John Tamihere has gone so far to the right now that he thinks there should be zero taxation. He will not get a lot of support for that from his colleagues, but we on the Opposition side of the Chamber think he is halfway right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand First member took a call before. I say to the young member that on the issue of venture capital, he is quite wrong. Conceptually, what has been suggested in this legislation is right. We need to attract more capital to this country, and a vehicle like this legislation will assist with that. Unfortunately\u2014and this is where I agree with the member\u2014this vehicle, in terms of the way it is constructed, simply will not do that. I also side with the member when he says that businesses in New Zealand deserve tax breaks. Small business after small business is being burdened with an ever-increasing level of taxation. That is the issue that John Tamihere, when he was a Cabinet Minister, articulated. I thought he would do something about de-layering tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a958707eca144859e4b4a9f3ff5de7f\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s leading by example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022962520893ad64839bbc4ae294deb7271\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: He is leading by example, but I was hoping he would do it in a more subtle way, rather than by just avoiding the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe, has had, by my count, four questions asked of him this evening: two of them by the New Zealand First member, one by the Green Party, and one by the ACT party. The Minister has steadfastly refused to get up and respond to those questions. I know he will not disappoint me. I know he will get to his feet and answer some of those questions, because it is essential that the people of New Zealand understand what the Minister is trying to do in constructing this legislation. I believe that questions that are fairly put need to be fairly answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe issue around M\u0101ori trusts has been debated. I understand that there were issues of double taxation\u2014and I do not for one moment suggest that what was happening was fair\u2014but one does not fix that problem by creating another one. One does not pick out some poor businesses based on race and think that that is a reasonable solution. That is not the way to deal with the issue. The Minister in the chair, who has just caught my eye, knows that I am right. He should be constructing legislation that takes up the issue with regard to all the businesses that are struggling. I ask the Minister what is wrong with helping out poor, non-M\u0101ori businesses as well as M\u0101ori authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00229711641d9b7a40cc97e35a32c281e7f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229711641d9b7a40cc97e35a32c281e7f7\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f972fe5d8eda4aca8cea9fc781859d2c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000680\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 287 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u00229c595a8ad5054ce08e8740feed4ae199\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c595a8ad5054ce08e8740feed4ae199\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could you clarify which one is Supplementary Order Paper 287? Is that the amendment to have a split vote or is that the Minister\u2019s amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6adc8049e8347d29b2a2dbe94d0f381\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: This is the amendment that has been on the Table all evening. It is the Minister\u2019s substantive amendment, not the amendment to have a split vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002257c496b7126648559ad2bdfdbeb0c0c3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022f93b3d1fc03f49e98ac45091774b122d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f93b3d1fc03f49e98ac45091774b122d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 295 in the name of Rod Donald to clause 7 and to add new clauses 61B and 67B are ruled out of order, as that Supplementary Order Paper was not lodged with 24 hours\u2019 notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002263647dda096449d8a289a639d944b70c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 8; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb95476011484c3aae206fa89aa72992\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb95476011484c3aae206fa89aa72992\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Now that the real Minister, Mr Cullen, has resumed the chair, I wonder whether he would like to take a call and address all the very serious issues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf4bcfae07941e48d0c0a3f84ed2a97\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I tell the member that that is not a matter for a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f23e5b82a43c46fdbfb148f2832a9731\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Tax Administration Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee8f76cbaced48efba2a44f602232003\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee8f76cbaced48efba2a44f602232003\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 is all to do with amendments intended to improve the working of the Inland Revenue Department and to make it more friendly to taxpayers. But can I just point out\u2014[Interruption] Yes, but even with advertisements like those stating the Inland Revenue Department is here to help, I am afraid there is still a lot of scepticism in the minds of the public. For example, one of the large number of amendments in this legislation is to do with how the department could improve the dispute resolution procedure, so I want to demonstrate to my colleagues in the Chamber how successful that attempt is. Twelve submissions were made to the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the so-called improvement of the dispute resolution procedure. Five submissions supported the improvement but considered the amendment did not go far enough, and five noted that the amendment did not address taxpayers\u2019 concerns and that the proposals were weighted heavily in favour of the Inland Revenue Department, rather than taxpayers. I think that clearly demonstrates that the majority of submitters, comprising taxation consultants and large accounting firms, still believe that this is very much one-sided legislation. The Inland Revenue Department, for example, has introduced time frames as to when taxpayers can dispute how much GST they have to pay, if they need to. Four years or 2 years is the time limit for taxpayers, yet no time limit is imposed on the Inland Revenue Department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI will take the opportunity, as Rod Donald has said, of the \u201Creal Minister\u201D being in the chair to raise an issue about how taxpayers perceive themselves as being helpless when dealing with the Inland Revenue Department. A constituent wrote to me about an issue to do with a child support payment. Through mediation, he and his ex-wife came to the arrangement that for 30 percent of the time that taxpayer would look after the children. So over 120 days of the year the children would spend time with their father and over another 200-and-something days they would spend time with their mother. My constituent was very upset though, because the Inland Revenue Department adopted the stance that unless parents spend 40 percent of the time with their children, they cannot qualify for what the department calls shared custody. I think that that father had a point when he said that, in effect, he is paying for 400-odd days of child support for his children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThen he looked through the Inland Revenue Department website, and first of all\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fbf8ee1d89648359fa022386b3309f5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: 400 days in a year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e8afaaa2b984a7caf53eaaf65a9c7db\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: Because he still paid child support when the children were with him\u2014right? For 120 days a year he looked after his children, yet he still paid 100 percent of the child support. So it was almost as though he were paying for more than 365 days. I raised that case with the commissioner, who said that, yes, the department has to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and that 40 percent sounded like a good line to draw. That is such an arbitrary rule. On the Inland Revenue Department website there is once again a message that the department is friendly, and that all people have to do is to write to the commissioner. But when my constituent wrote to the department, the standard answer was that it did have that 40 percent rule. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIn that particular case the father was, through mediation, only allowed to spend 30 percent of his time with his children, so should that not be taken into account? How friendly is the department? I do not know whether there is a process whereby that very frustrated person can bring his case. I raise that matter because it does impact on the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s working. Today we looked at the financial review of the department. We saw that child support payments of over $840,000,000 were outstanding, and more than half of that was from penalties. I accept that some people will not pay, and they should rightly have penalties imposed on them. But maybe some taxpayers simply find the system so unfair that they refuse to pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022429052474af047d4aa24746f937a158c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022429052474af047d4aa24746f937a158c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raised with the Minister, in regard to clause 113, whether the problems that we have been hearing about recently, with regard to Mr Tamihere, were wider than we previously thought. This clause is in regard to the employer and PAYE intermediaries failing to make tax deductions. Is this a wider problem than we had previously thought? Alternatively, does this mean that the Government actually knew about the Waipareira Trust situation and was changing the law, but had not got around to telling us about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b34410318ca4851a3f02f0894228988\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Retrospective!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd0c0d9e577b46ae876d42ac83186b17\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Retrospective legislation. It does seem to me that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe9076459f640c58df944d0d4d1dc65\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: We have seen it before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc6a77c1a9b5485eafd837e9997fdd2b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: We have seen it before, and I want to know from the Government what it thinks about this tax situation. Indeed, I have not actually heard from Dr Cullen with regard to that particular case. Is it typical? If it is not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b394b0b26c49b19075e74d8d0e30b1\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: They supported forging paintings, so I guess dodging tax is part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2f2c14549c843aca0b65d02512a33a2\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is being too harsh. It appears to me the Government thinks that employers should pay PAYE. Now that it understands the situation of the Waipareira Trust, has it changed its mind? If Government members think that it is a serious problem, how do they feel about having a member of their caucus who has not paid tax? Perhaps he has not paid it, perhaps it was his employer who had not paid it. How do those members feel about people who knew that their employer had not paid? This is a question we would like to know the answer to. Here we are being asked to change the law with regard to PAYE deductions, and the most famous case that we know of is the case of their colleague the honourable John Tamihere\u2014I presume he is still honourable; maybe he is not, maybe he is now Mr Tamihere; anyway, all members are honourable members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhat does the member think about that situation? Is that the sort of situation that he was concerned about? Is the John Tamihere situation common, or is it uncommon? What does he think the moral position should be? How does he feel about having a caucus member, who apparently is going to be a candidate for this Government in the next election, who gets up in this House to say: \u201CEven though no tax was paid, I am blameless.\u201D? Does the member accept that? Does he think that an employee who knew that no tax had been paid is blameless? Should he have advised the Inland Revenue Department? Should he have taken steps to advise it? What advice does he give to other John Tamiheres out in the community who may discover that their employers have not paid PAYE? Should they just sit back like his colleague did and hope that no one ever finds out, or ought they to draw it to the attention of the authorities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHere we are, as members of Parliament, being asked at 9.25 p.m. to change the law with regard to employer or PAYE intermediaries failing to make tax deductions, so presumably he thinks it is important enough to change the law. Does he think it is important enough to give us his opinion on the matter? What sort of example does he think the Labour Government is giving to employers and employees when it has in its bosom a member of Parliament who did not pay the tax, knew that his employer had not paid it, and every one of those members today clapped that member, even though they knew he had not paid his tax. What sort of standard is this Labour Government trying to set?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228104383a5a59404eb7299ec68ff9c07d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: What about a false declaration on a marital settlement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c428e0cd0354c8c9c76d24c23a6f07a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I think that would be pretty shocking, too. Is the member going to tell us what his settlement was? I have no idea. What I do know is that a false declaration on an electoral return is a shocking matter. When it is fraudulent, as the one from Mr Tamihere was, from a proven forger, I say that it is a serious matter. It seems to me\u2014I do not know\u2014that birds of a feather flock together. Here is a party that clapped a member who said that there was nothing wrong with putting in a forged return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00224fc43534ad0c4d53a4eb3ef189ed36e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fc43534ad0c4d53a4eb3ef189ed36e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Only a couple of points have been made. Ms Wong decided to refer to the Child Support Act. This bill actually amends the Tax Administration Act, and the question she raised should have been raised in a different debate. In respect of the point made by Mr Prebble\u2014I think that is his name\u2014clause 111 simply corrects a reference error in the Income Tax Act. I would point out that Mr Tamihere has made it clear that he did not know that tax was not paid\u2014nor does any other member in this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d51ef94526b49e1baf509be9c7e83c3\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What kind of fool does he think he is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c52aead88f324092bc98cac057fa2a03\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Not as big a fool as Dr Lockwood Smith\u2014that is certainly true! Not as big a fool as that member has proved to be throughout his career! I invite that member to explain to the House how he became a multimillionaire, having been an MP for most of his life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022835b7af5d348494cb81d4fc7e6675676\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022835b7af5d348494cb81d4fc7e6675676\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak to Part 3, which amends the Tax Administration Act, because I want to pick up from where the Hon Richard Prebble left off. I am not yet convinced that there is nothing in this bill designed to get John Tamihere off the hook for cheating on tax. We know this Government. When Harry Duynhoven tried to cheat on citizenship, the Government changed the law. We know that the Prime Minister forges paintings, and thinks that is acceptable. What kind of mischief is this Government prepared to get up to, to change the law to help John Tamihere who cheats on tax? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at Part 3. Let us have a look at the clauses here. Taxpayer assessment\u2014[Interruption] Listen to that member! She should think a bit before she gets into that. Let us look at clause 92. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d64d6792590846699e383c0993b815dd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to apologise for that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c275995437484bb70d266b8a892c65\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Apologise for what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227486a18d31cb4520a276f526f6aee37a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Apologise for addressing the Chair in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fd2c37f14e14c8999410977fbc46d2b\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I have been sitting here for the last 10 minutes and we have had a debate that has nothing to do with this bill. It is a continuation of the Wednesday debate, and no action has been taken to stop it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e22a6e41609f4dfd91beae4b36f88815\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I will decide what is relevant and what is not. Dr Lockwood Smith was coming to the bill. It was not easy for him, because of the noise from the Government side, and I would ask members, if they want to carry on in that way, to take a call, but not to do it again from a seated position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238d1153329bb43208cbfc6fb7a1bdb16\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: They are all huddled around because they know they risk a by-election, because they know a resignation from Cabinet is not where it stops. They know the Serious Fraud Office will have John Tamihere out, and they are worried about a by-election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to come back to these clauses. Let us have a look at clause 92, \u201CTaxpayer assessment\u201D. Is the Government going to change the law to remove the liability on taxpayers to be honest about the taxes they have to pay? Let us have a look at what they say under clause 92. Will the Government change the law to let John Tamihere off for not being honest about the tax he had to pay? I have to be fair, as I look at clause 92(4). Whatever changes the Government is making are to apply from 2004-05 onwards, so it appears not to be retrospective to let John Tamihere off the hook. That is clause 92. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me then go to clause 105, \u201CLate filing penalties\u201D, and clause 106, \u201CTax shortfalls\u201D. Is this Government up to sneaky stuff here to get John Tamihere off the hook for failing to pay his taxes? I look at clause 106, and it appears to me\u2014well let us look at late filing penalties because it seems there could be some late filing penalties, if nothing more, when one dodges one\u2019s tax and does not pay it. It seems that that applies to annual imputations, and it would not apply in the other case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAgain, Clause 106, \u201CTax shortfalls\u201D, appears to relate to matters after 1 April 2005. I accept that that clause is not designed to get John Tamihere off the hook. [Interruption] He is still a member of Parliament. People who cheat and do not pay their tax do not deserve to be members of this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe go then to clause 116, which is about write-offs by the commissioner. Is the commissioner going to write off what John Tamihere owes? He owes a bit of money. He received $200,000 as his golden koha. Even if we do not gross it up, there is $80,000 in that. But gross it up and it is a lot more that he owes. Is the commissioner going to write it off? No, I have to confess that clause 116(2) states that this will apply \u201Cafter the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent.\u201D I accept that clause 116 looks OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI turn to clause 118, \u201CRemission for reasonable cause\u201D. If the Prime Minister says we have to let John Tamihere off the hook, is that reasonable cause? Look at clause 118, \u201CRemission for reasonable cause\u201D, carefully. It states: \u201CSection 183A(1) is replaced by the following: \u2026 (f) Maori authority distribution penalty tax \u2026 \u201D. Is that a sneaky one, designed to get John Tamihere off the hook? I do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022272e9192c7394a53ad86cbeaa85fabff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022272e9192c7394a53ad86cbeaa85fabff\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E There have been some interesting contributions. Like the other speakers I am pleased that sitting in the chair is the Minister who might have some relevance to the bill, Michael Cullen. If there are some questions we might expect some answers. There has been no evidence so far that that is likely to happen, but we might expect some answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI note with a great deal of interest that this legislation has suddenly appeared on the scene, as a result of some recent political events. Given some of the assertions that have been made by senior members in the Chamber tonight, will the Minister take a call and absolutely deny that there is anything in this part that in any way would help to mitigate the problem that John Tamihere finds himself in? The Minister could easily rule that out. He could easily take a call and say: \u201CLook, you are all wrong. There is nothing in here that in any way will influence the outcome as far as John Tamihere is concerned.\u201D Have we had a single peep on that? Not a word!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that we are looking yet again at another 212 pages of regulation on what the Government should or should not do in our lives. Can I also say that when we wander around the galleries in this place we see huge rows of books of legislation. I asked the Hon Richard Prebble how many volumes of Hansard he has acquired in his time in Parliament. Just think about that\u2014a huge room full of books. The only place I have been recently where I have seen that number of books, or a number of pieces of information that would match what we see in this place, is my accountant\u2019s office. Members should go to modern accountants\u2019 offices today and have a look at the amount of legislative requirements they have to read through, have a look at the amount of tax law they have on their premises at any one time\u2014that is even allowing for digital information; for computers, which can store massive amounts of information\u2014and ask them why they go to the expense of having all that information at their fingertips.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Michael Cullen, the Minister of Finance, how this bill will help to achieve the goals set down by his Prime Minister in her Address in Reply, when she said that this Government is pro-growth. How will it help? That is an easy question for the Minister to answer. He might be able to find some obscure clause in Part 3 that may reduce costs. I do not know where it is; I cannot see where it is. But there is a simple question for the Minister: why do we have to have this level of bureaucratic nonsense dished out over and over again, when a flatter tax rate would deal with most of the problems he is trying to overcome in this bill? Why do we have to have so many layers of bureaucratic nonsense when it comes to taxation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI have a simple question for the Minister, which takes a yes or no answer: has he ever paid PAYE on behalf of an employee, in his own right as a businessman?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf68707e7594266b3e676107ad7f0ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b8ecaaca7d44c45945dd407f1fb6d35\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says yes. I am heartened by that. It must have been a mighty long time ago; I know he has been in this place for a long time. I am heartened by that, because if I had had to guess I would have said no, but maybe the Minister can clear that up. There are a large number of us in this Chamber who do pay PAYE on behalf of our employees on a regular basis, like every month. If we do not, if we get it wrong, somewhere in this part there will be a heavy hammer that comes down on us with 20-plus percent penalties, which compound from the point when we do not get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister how that helps simplify the tax system. My colleague who was on the Finance and Expenditure Committee said that the debate that took place around Part 3 was about trying to simplify the system. I cannot for the life of me see how Part 3 will simplify it. It certainly does not simplify the PAYE system. I know that my colleague the Hon Lockwood Smith certainly pays PAYE on behalf of his employees on a monthly basis and knows what a convoluted, mind-boggling process that is. Let me tell the Minister that even if one does not employ somebody for a couple of months or 3 months, one still has to fill in a PAYE IR66 form every month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022c09a8fea07774c529790e9d6561da243\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c09a8fea07774c529790e9d6561da243\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002208faa72f5b4b4f6592bc4cfa4a074cff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208faa72f5b4b4f6592bc4cfa4a074cff\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E There are three great lies in the world. One of them is: \u201CI am here from head office\u2014trust me.\u201D The second is: \u201CI\u2019m from the IRD, I\u2019m here to help\u2014trust me.\u201D The third one is: \u201CI didn\u2019t know I had to pay tax.\u201D In fact, we might be able to add a fourth one: \u201CI didn\u2019t know it was a golden handshake.\u201D\u2014no, it would be: \u201CI didn\u2019t take it.\u201D Have members tried to deal with the Inland Revenue Department when it has come to \u201Cassist\u201D them? Do members know what the experience is like? The department turns one over every which way because it has a view that one has done something wrong. That is the position the department starts from. Anyone who suggests that this legislation will try to make the department more user-friendly is engaged in a giant misconception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EBut giant misconceptions come easily to this Government, do they not? Clause 105 deals with late-filing penalties and clause 106 deals with tax shortfalls. I have heard a number of arguments mounted that those measures might be retrospective legislation to try to get John Tamihere off the hook. I have to say to those members that they have got it all wrong. They surely were not designed with that in mind, because John Tamihere simply does not pay tax. Therefore, there are no tax shortfalls. It does not apply to him. The Government is saying to New Zealanders that that is OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EHave members ever been in the position where the Inland Revenue Department says they owe it money? If a person says in return: \u201CWell, actually, no I don\u2019t. You owe me money, and by the way I want a 20 percent tax penalty on top of that.\u201D, does the department do that? Absolutely not! [Interruption] There are a few members calling out over there. I do not know which ones they are, but we could pick any one of them, and they would be all the evidence we would want to see that the moratorium on GMOs should never have been lifted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ELet us turn to clauses 112 through to 114. Those people who believe that acting as the Government\u2019s tax collector, in terms of PAYE, is a good idea should put up their hands. Not even a Government member put a hand up. Not even the Minister put his hand up. This is a person who maintains that he has been in a position of collecting PAYE before, and he simply has not done it; he is intellectually dishonest\u2014and that is being very kind to him. Those people who maintain that the collection of PAYE actually helps the productive sector have got rocks in their head. Actually, that tells us that those members have never engaged in earning a fair buck for this country in their lives. They have never been part of the productive sector. They have been on the front teat all their lives, and they want the hard workers in this country to continue to contribute on their behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIt is compliance costs and red tape costs such as those that this hugely complex piece of legislation is reinforcing that are driving business people in this country to distraction. The cost is hard to measure, but when one is spending 1 or 2 days a month acting as the Government\u2019s tax collector one knows that there is a real cost to one\u2019s business. It might be hard to quantify, but there is a real cost to one\u2019s business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe argument that has been proposed that with this bill the dispute resolution procedures are somewhat streamlined is another one of the fallacies that the Minister in the chair is trying to peddle. Anyone who has engaged with those procedures knows that that is a nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1ba06e2efc345ae8444d7b3c456f4bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1ba06e2efc345ae8444d7b3c456f4bb\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbec1eddc0b841c89a627b202a011c87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbec1eddc0b841c89a627b202a011c87\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Let me put my question to the Minister of Revenue in terms that I think he should think very seriously about. The question that was asked by myself, and then by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, was whether these clauses actually\u2014from the facts that we have seen in the newspapers and from the facts that have been given in this House\u2014result in a change in the tax position of the Waipareira Trust, and make a change to the tax position of one of his colleagues, Mr John Tamihere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243db1527f8a048d5b3f5c3bf21cc75cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221871c0921f0c499e9a6998458fbf4d22\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says \u201CNo\u201D, and I just invite him to take another look. We have clause 105, \u201CLate filing penalties\u201D. That would appear to me to be applicable. We have clause 106, \u201CTax shortfalls\u201D. In clause 108 we have section 141FB, \u201CReduction of penalties for previous behaviour\u201D. I think that might actually apply in this case. Then we go on to the clauses that I drew to his attention before: clause 113, \u201CEmployer or PAYE intermediaries failing to make tax deductions\u201D, and clause 114, \u201CUnpaid tax deductions, etc., to constitute charge on employer\u2019s or PAYE intermediary\u2019s property\u201D. Then we get to clause 116, \u201CWrite-off of tax by Commissioner\u201D, which Dr Lockwood Smith thought was not retrospective, but I think that when one reads it ones finds that it does not say that. What subclause (2) actually states is \u201CSubsection (1) applies to tax that is written off on and after the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent.\u201D So it could well be that the Commissioner of Inland Revenue is having to look at the facts we are seeing, and deciding whether to write off taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen we come clause 117, which has the interesting section 181D, \u201CRemission of late payment penalties and interest incurred due to obligation by Maori authority to pay further income tax\u201D. Well, I am not sure, but maybe the Minister knows whether the Waipareira Trust is a M\u0101ori authority. I think it is. It would appear to me that that new section might well apply. Then we get to clause 118, \u201CRemission for reasonable cause\u201D, which states: \u201CSection 183A(1) is replaced by the following: (1) This section applies to\u2014(a) a late filing penalty: (b) a non-electronic filing penalty: (c) a late payment penalty:\u201D. It appears to me that they all might possibly apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe point I am making to the Minister is this. He should understand the position he finds himself in. Here he is, a Minister of Finance, saying to the country that the Government is levying tax, and that every citizen, company, trust, and M\u0101ori authority has a duty to pay tax, yet we all witnessed earlier today his party applauding a person who, apparently, now does concede that no tax was paid. The Minister said he believes Mr Tamihere. Did he believe Mr Tamihere earlier when he failed to tell the whole country that he had, in fact, received a golden handshake? Does not the Minister\u2019s confidence at some point get shaken? Is not a more serious point that the confidence of this House and the country in the tax legislation that we are being asked to pass is questioned? When members ask whether it could be that the tax legislation we are passing today affects a member of Parliament who has had to resign as Minister, and who has a peculiar tax position\u2014I hope it is peculiar\u2014in that he has not paid it and nor has his employer, surely the Minister can see the impossibility of the position he is in. Of course, we all know that he thinks that, too, but a thing called the foreshore and seabed legislation means that he is prepared to embrace anyone, even a person who has failed to pay his tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d17d1d5fd8434cbb9297cae80e16617a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d17d1d5fd8434cbb9297cae80e16617a\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f44a2b8a7d1d476cb924cf9fb34a9fe7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ebdb5463353f40feb9ccc70efadfe80e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 7; M\u0101ori Party 1; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002284c3ef4fa98e4959b15185d91e07938f\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to other Acts and Regulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00225a5bb2bbdb8d48a8bd44d43b4cac9087\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a5bb2bbdb8d48a8bd44d43b4cac9087\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E This part is to do with the various adjustments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f6bb17fec744283bad1e0e4bc556f2e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s very small and very non-controversial. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229384d8a2b4644dc4a9ed714cedac5ad8\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: Ah! I am sure members of the public are waiting patiently, holding their breath, and I am sure the Hon Richard Prebble will make his usual forthright contribution in a very appropriate manner in terms of GST. I am not sure whether the trust has anything to do with GST, but I do point out that in Part 4\u2014[Interruption] There may be invoices, and, interestingly, I understand we are not sure whether GST was properly treated on five or six invoices that were issued by the Waipareira Trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EPart 4 relates to GST and who is supposed to account for it, and to whether there is an entitlement to a refund of any excess tax paid. New section 45 inserted by clause 134 deals with the refunding of excess tax. I find that quite interesting, because we were talking earlier about whether the Inland Revenue Department can present a friendly face to the public in terms of its handling of taxation issues. Certain provisions apply when a taxpayer is entitled to a refund of excess tax. First of all, the commissioner has to be satisfied that the amount represents an excess over the amount properly assessed for a taxable period, and that it falls within the 4-year period. But there is a catch. Under new section 45(4) the commissioner may refund an overpayment of tax after the end of the 4-year time limit if the commissioner is satisfied that the overpayment of tax is \u201Cthe result of a clear mistake or simple oversight\u201D by the person concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E Once again, in contemplating that particular section I wonder about the process the commissioner will adopt for determining whether the result is a clear mistake and how that is different from a deliberate mistake. How can the commissioner tell the difference between the two situations, and what process will the Inland Revenue Department employ to identify whether the overpayment of tax is a clear mistake or simple oversight on the part of a particular person? Also, during the determination period can the individual concerned really present his or her case clearly to the Inland Revenue Department? I certainly find the use of the term \u201Ca clear mistake or simple oversight\u201D quite interesting, because to make that assessment actually tends to be quite subjective. What does a person have to do to demonstrate that an overpayment is a clerical mistake? How can someone\u2019s intention be assessed if, for example, one gets a bit mischievous and thinks of the latest high-profile case being debated in the Chamber, involving the five famous invoices? When an overpayment of tax is involved, I wonder how the commissioner will actually assess whether there is a clear mistake or just a simple oversight\u2014the invoice might be addressed to the wrong person or the address on the invoice itself might not be a true address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20041103471f9342f90e4bc3a8ab9f0d23309ac8000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"