"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244e2f40c1a2e45e48c8a672df76a36cc\u0022\u003EWednesday, 16 February 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b045bbd1bc7e4d54ba8343f92049c441\u0022\u003EWednesday, 16 February 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259b6c50ce7c64fdb80722539123f87b4\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bd2b1c257064cad9064d8407f38b9ba\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002235d96316dc9944e6a8a258ed5e9fefa1\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Problem Notification\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d56bd91e464538a7fe8428e58f15b5\u0022\u003E1. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What are the details, if any, she first received, including the date and from whom, regarding the problems with NCEA, and what directions did she give at that time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b39e00b7adeb461486a0c1785505bb09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b39e00b7adeb461486a0c1785505bb09\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I have not had advice about the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA), but in respect of scholarship I was first alerted by the Minister of Education to concerns about the overall pass rates for scholarship on the weekend of 15 and 16 January. I was first alerted to the likelihood of the variability of results across subjects, on the evening of 25 January by the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, with further information arriving the following evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f621bb03bbd4882ab310f9c176a85d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Prime Minister have such a huge amount of time between 15 and 16 January and the later date she gave, when, in fact, by the 17th, via an email to the Minister\u2019s office, the issue of the subject results with the huge variability was before the Minister of Education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227402eafd9dd6425185e4fea751cee0c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority did indeed send an email to the Minister\u2019s and Associate Minister\u2019s offices on 17 January. I am absolutely satisfied, from the investigation I have made, that the Minister of Education and the Associate Minister did not have their attention drawn to that email until late on 25 January. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f73e0dee7948969f07fbc8bb5fe1bc\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Prime Minister care to reconsider her answers, when any rational person would have seen problems with NCEA 7 years ago, when it was first put up by the National Party and opposed by the ACT party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220305817b388c487c9f68fdcccfe6e688\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important not to confuse NCEA with scholarship. We are dealing with quite different issues here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e761d43c10444e5bb7da8930e5623f9\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm her statement to the House just now that the Minister of Education advised her about pass rates in scholarship on the weekend of 15 and 16 January; and how does she square that with the statement she has just made that on 17 January an email to the Minister\u2019s office from the New Zealand Qualifications Authority contained no alert that there were problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f81b1bf767594a6e8366d256aaa0e814\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What I was alerted to by the Minister was that the overall number of passes in scholarship was fewer than had been expected. What I advised the House just now was that on 17 January the New Zealand Qualifications Authority emailed staff in the Minister\u2019s office. The Minister did not have that drawn to his attention until late on the 25th. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229811c707e5ef465e98152483d3f4f53a\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Did anyone\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ecc9aa922f4f21b9f0f7cbe694f2f7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the one warning I am giving today. The member had already started his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6512c3c4aeb458f94d3b44c72f34793\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Did anyone inform the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022806d8ea518bf41569c969d069dbfec94\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I take some exception to your lecturing of this side of the House in that fashion. There was no interjection on the speaker. There may have been some conversation between two bench colleagues, but that is not unreasonable. The fact is that the Prime Minister\u2019s answers so far are laughable, and were laughed at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022521eb09783154a6ea93803f3be9e02f9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member is now trifling with me and the Chair. I tell him that he will not do that again today. I heard the interjection, as did a lot of other members. The member himself knows who made it. I am not going to identify him, but he knows who it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240b71a04feff4a92baaeba2669d250f9\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I, too, heard the comment, but I take exception to the fact that there was a suggestion it was an interjection. It was a comment made by a member, not an interjection. I take exception to the fact that you are suggesting it was. It was not an interjection on the Prime Minister, who had just resumed her seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bdc73413bac45708f8d9ea4cffc649a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was an interjection, after the member had started his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022395718f717654d579391e0404fb2561f\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Did anyone inform the Prime Minister during the period in question that it was not necessary to have students\u2019 scripts returned in order to moderate the scholarship marks statistically; and is it not true that such a recommendation was rejected because it would have meant taking scholarships off some students who had already been awarded them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bda3b7110044bf5a3f516a0e6f5fcbc\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have not dealt with the issue in that detail. My first thought when I was given the figures, as to the range of passes subject by subject, was whether the papers should be called back in, re-marked, and moderated. I was told that that could not be done, because they had already gone out to the students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c22c1c16e784b46bfd1e0d88096c267\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government blaming the New Zealand Qualifications Authority for not alerting the Minister to problems with scholarship on 17 January, when she has just told the House that the Minister of Education advised her on the weekend of 15 and 16 January\u2014the day before the Qualifications Authority is meant to have let the Minister down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284abefcd26104bc99410319fb3bc4746\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There are two points at issue. The first is the overall low rate in scholarship, which the Minister alerted me to, as I have said, on 15 and 16 January, because he wished to bring a paper to Cabinet about that. The other issue is the variability of results across subjects, which both he and I\u2014[Interruption] No, I am sorry but members have obviously studied it very little if they think it is the same thing\u2014became aware of on 25 January. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a997659b8a4137945d6db7c83eda55\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why would the Prime Minister\u2019s Minister of Education\u2014having been given the provisional picture from the provisional results on 14 January and having alerted her on 15 or 16 January, as she said\u2014take all the way to 25 January to understand just how serious the issue was?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a557ff92654922b84aee2eaeb57e43\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister was advised that there were fewer scholarships awarded overall than were expected. That is why he asked to bring a paper to Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a59166f701184b9d815628c53b55a051\u0022\u003EStudent Allowances\u2014Parental Income\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb24b14d756a4760adec865af75bae59\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Is he satisfied that it is fair to base eligibility for student allowances for students under 25 on their parents\u2019 income, even if the students are married or have been supporting themselves for two years; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002208b0c0bbfdff4da789792c0d3547c761\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208b0c0bbfdff4da789792c0d3547c761\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The changes to student allowances apply the parental income test in a manner consistent for all students who do not have dependent children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c936faaa11c84551b6503c2ae5384385\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Government claim that it has removed one form of discrimination, on the basis of employment status, by treating students who have supported themselves financially as if they are now dependent on their parents, when the biggest form of discrimination, on the basis of employment status, still remains\u2014students under 25 are deemed to be financially dependent on their parents, but young people on the dole are not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dbbb799a1bb481fa07856c97cea47df\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of issues that sit in there. To do an equalisation, I am advised, would cost about $3.5 billion over 4 years, and that is not this Government\u2019s priority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f2e72b1b25a4711b7e2f373ebadeba8\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: How many students have benefited from the changes to student allowance eligibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d19eafc29a5463394ae096dd9519b8f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that an estimated 36,000 students will benefit from the changes to student allowances announced in the 2004 Budget. Over half of all full-time students can now receive an allowance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220541d59f09964528a6feef14a012e13b\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not correct that the requirements of the human rights legislation, which were the excuse for these changes in policy, could have just as readily been met by simply establishing a universal allowance; if so, why did the Government not take that course of action\u2014or has the Minister already answered that question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f235fdfb9245218969c26e964315d0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think I have answered that particular question when responding to Mr Ogilvy. To have a universal allowance at about the level of the unemployment benefit would cost $3.5 billion over 4 years, and that is not the highest priority for this Government at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c69e18f7ed454e8e9f7c7e3fda98b097\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, had been lecturing at Auckland University for 2 years before her 25th birthday, and is he saying that he believes she was a child dependent on her parents during that time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f204897cb8d94701b2619531b55b66bd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I know the Prime Minister\u2019s parents are wonderful and generous people, but I should say that at that stage she probably was not heavily reliant on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022227d00e6e5a240809abf02d1494dec64\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Government justify treating married students as if they are financially dependent on their parents, when Cabinet papers prepared by the Minister\u2019s own officials point out: \u201CThere is a cultural and legal assumption that on marriage, a person\u2019s primary emotional and financial dependence transfers from one\u2019s parents to one\u2019s spouse.\u201D; and that this is reflected in other laws that remove guardianship rights and responsibilities upon marriage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225108fee1862648c986632cf246deb05a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen that bit of advice but I can inform the member that my experience is that children tend to be dependent on their parents before, during, and after their marriage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c13c0d83ef343c1a07178d9aace7516\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that although the cost of broadening student allowance thresholds is $157 million over 3 years, by forcing married students, and those who have supported themselves, to have their allowance based on their parents\u2019 income, the Government is actually saving $82 million over those 3 years, which means that the net increase in spending on allowances is more like $75 million\u2014less than the amount the Government is cutting from the scheme; and is that not akin to tertiary highway robbery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234c8399719054cc5a88ebcd6be6833a1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm the figures, and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b8cee28312e4535b6321c8879bd2b2f\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Scholarship Examination\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298ccfc5649374d8cbf4f06f6367207e6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Did he make the decision that the New Zealand Scholarship award would be implemented in 2004 in the form it finally took; if so, what form did that decision take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcef5cac653f4adf8248c11b4cc0cdec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcef5cac653f4adf8248c11b4cc0cdec\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The decision that that scholarship would be standards based and that there would be no intersubject scaling was a Cabinet decision. It was made by that member and his colleagues in 1998. As the member is aware, I deferred the implementation by 1 year soon after coming into Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f4dd0086464c60b1dce6f525507b21\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that he announced a change in policy when he issued a press release on 26 January 2005, and that that press release included a statement: \u201CAs this is the first time the new Scholarship system has been run, there is particular interest in the pattern of results and achievement of students.\u201D; how much did he know about the scholarship results when he issued that press release?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8c908fe073545d28d3f88bd5ad89e5d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I knew that there were eight who had three outstanding scholarships, when the expectation we had taken to Cabinet and had published was that there should have been 50. I thought it was unfair that, as a result of the scholarship exam being harder than we thought it was going to be, four people got outstanding passes and other kids who had done really well missed out on the money that had been allocated. I therefore moved, with Cabinet permission, to a Cabinet decision in order to get that money allocated to kids. If Opposition members think that kids who did really well at really hard exams should not get the money, they should stand up and say so now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228530daaa00644656bf82730f46b7d8ed\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why the Associate Minister told the House yesterday that the level 4 National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) qualification was created as a standards-based assessment system by the October 1998 Cabinet paper when the paper does not do anything like that at all, and what were the contents of the subsequent Cabinet papers on scholarship that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority chief executive officer referred to today at the select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022081a01616f904c1a8da0f7230bc58929\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The subsequent papers went to the question of reward and, I think, probably timing, rather than to the substance of the qualification. The decision in 1998 stated, as part of the paper, in paragraph 29: \u201CThere will be no intersubject scaling of the external assessment. This has been a source of dissatisfaction because of the distortions that have occurred between raw and final marks.\u201D I have been advised that as recently as 2003 we had science subjects where no one passed before scaling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022700263718da84a56ae0836345d91f2b3\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: How does he feel about his decision to implement scholarship, in light of Nobel Prize - winner Alan MacDiarmid\u2019s comment last weekend that: \u201CNCEA scholarship is a disaster for New Zealand science.\u201D, adding: \u201CIt\u2019s done a great disservice to the country because New Zealand needs, for its national security in the future, to encourage science education, and this is going to put kids off\u201D; or does the Minister know better than a Nobel laureate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022128a93d3728b40e18e7a160f5452dff2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Professor MacDiarmid and I have had some pretty intense discussions, not on this subject but on the subject of Waiwhetu School. He is an expert in an area of science. He admits, I am sure, that he is not an educational expert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b402049be02a4698abad698cd0796b8e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that when the Minister issued his press release on 26 January he knew about all the problems with scholarship results because he was emailed the results on 14 January, he advised the Prime Minister about problems on 15 or 16 January, he was emailed again on 17 January, and on 18 January his most senior officials started meetings on the issue, yet he issued a press release on 26 January that made no reference to the variability in results, which the Cabinet later decided was so bad it had to step in; and why did he cover that up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef823939085a4f7f9057d4570d54eca3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: At no stage did I cover it up. I want to make it clear that on the evening of the Cabinet meeting that made the decisions as to the extension, I was briefed and I received a piece of paper. The next day I discovered for the first time that unlike NCEA levels 1, 2, and 3, the scholarship standards had not been subject to intersubject moderation. That was something I discovered then. That, of course, was a result of that member\u2019s decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e719e2b535b24056998ca8e54ab10c56\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister possibly expect the House or the public to believe that over a period of 2 weeks between 14 January and 26 January he had no knowledge of pass rates in scholarship, when the analysis is as simple as one table with four columns on one page; and how can he expect us to believe that Cabinet made a decision to extend scholarship without paying attention to that analysis of the scholarship results, which can be done in 5 minutes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e91740d1160645dc986e0bb1c0ac3d78\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb021d6f324478ba885653e41d589d1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Minister take from the NCEA results from 2002 and 2003, which showed that 5,000 maths students were graded \u201Cexcellent\u201D in level 2 in 2002 but that that dropped drastically to 70\u2014down from 5,000\u2014in level 3 in 2003, when the cohort had not changed; and why did he and his colleagues ignore that varying and disturbing statistic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223db11511de524fde846dec9e4b311daf\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Off the top of my head, I do not have the results for 2002 and 2003 and the analysis of those results that was done at the time. If the member puts a question on that in writing, I am quite willing to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a111163cb382404ab298477f8522b3a5\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister only knew about the number of students who had passed scholarship, then why did he know enough detail to be able to make this statement in his press release of 26 January: \u201CProvisional results indicate that some students did exceptionally well in Scholarship, but didn\u2019t necessarily sit three subjects.\u201D, when finding that out would have required detailed knowledge of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2019s analysis, because it is nowhere available in the public arena?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022477e4880c2cb4cc1a13df886d7577f4d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Very, very simply, it is because eight people had passed three subjects with \u201Coutstanding\u201D when we expected 50 to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ca78caba6b942f0a96737d83a98aa44\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: But you don\u2019t know which ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbcba623e7034258ba3b491862ca8bac\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not. I now know which schools they were from; I still do not know the subjects those eight people passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220641e79ad004497fa8a70c34bbdfc79d\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a paper by Warwick Elley, Facts and Fallacies about Standards-based Assessment, which includes the statistics the Rt Hon Winston Peters just talked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a9bcbfee2794ae196833e4ba6bfebed\u0022\u003EKyoto Protocol\u2014Australia\u2019s Non-ratification\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fdae8ee52db456abc19f69ae85f989c\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Will she be raising Australia\u2019s ongoing refusal to ratify the Kyoto Protocol with Australian Prime Minister John Howard during his forthcoming visit to New Zealand; if so, what exact message will she be conveying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022160109d9d03a496fb729a9a741b5b0b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022160109d9d03a496fb729a9a741b5b0b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E No. The positions of our respective Governments on this issue are well known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5f377d0bb94c7b9fada00ed440b632\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that Australia\u2019s Kyoto Protocol target is the slackest in the OECD and allows a 7 percent increase in net emissions; if so, how does she expect to strengthen Australia and New Zealand Closer Economic Relations in the future if Australia will not accept even those international obligations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224180176bba0d45348d72e001959512c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: To the best of my knowledge, the Australia and New Zealand Closer Economic Relations Trade Agreement does not cover the Kyoto Protocol targets. What the Australian Government does in that respect is entirely up to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b2baa52f08041bdaab60c2b509e36bf\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister acknowledge that both Australia and the US are making significant progress in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, despite not having signed up to the Kyoto Protocol; if so, does she accept that it is just as effective to have an internal carbon-trading regime, rather than being tied to a bureaucratic and uncertain international one like the Kyoto Protocol that does not yet involve the developing world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022214de39975c44a8a9910aa880587baea\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am not responsible for the policies of those Governments, but I would say that New Zealand, as a very strong supporter of multilateralism across the board, likes to be moving with the broad mainstream of international opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214edcc8ea3f449aeba8b0669c23e9942\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister be pointing out to Prime Minister John Howard that some New Zealand businesses expect to gain a competitive advantage from the Kyoto Protocol, as reported in today\u2019s Dominion Post, or will she allow that advantage to be undercut by Australian businesses that are not playing the game?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ec0fd713ccf41f3b050f88d40af2c8a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I would think that businesses in the United States and in Australia will be looking very carefully at how they might be disadvantaged by not being part of the international trading system that comes out of the Kyoto Protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f603fe9bc185436b9d336514c1cc3562\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with the statement made by the Hon Pete Hodgson yesterday in the House: \u201CCars and cows are where our greenhouse gases largely come from \u2026\u201D; if so, what plans does her Government have to phase out inefficient, polluting vehicles\u2014ironically, many of which have \u201CGE Free\u201D or \u201CSave the Planet\u201D stickers on them\u2014and replace them with new, technologically advanced, more environmentally friendly vehicles that offer greater hope of reducing overall carbon dioxide emissions than all the Greens\u2019 policies combined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b75d711fd104bdca3ed4408e2f16bf9\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: One is tempted to quip that it might be easier to phase out inefficient, polluting cars than inefficient, polluting cows. However, having resisted that temptation, I will say that of course the Government in its overall policy is addressing the issue of emissions from cars, but the reality is, with regard to electricity generation, that only 8 to 9 percent of our greenhouse gases come from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd37f511c2a4886aece9d26f1e6e331\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister remind Mr Howard that commitments from China, India, and other developing countries are dependent on the OECD taking action first, and that the refusal of Australia and the US to ratify might give developing countries an excuse to remain outside the Kyoto Protocol for even longer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a8c810be64443c915dd5974374b471\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I am not responsible for what excuses others might use for not coming into an international trading system. What I am satisfied of is that New Zealand has done the right thing in agreeing to be part of this very important multilateral initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227708656724824a9c8a054d935164dc73\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Government Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221279152179de4cf7bca4dd456a81f458\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Has he received any recent reports on Government initiatives which will contribute to lifting economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u00228db10df8f2da47599bbf06e1b3a60caf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228db10df8f2da47599bbf06e1b3a60caf\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Surprisingly, yes. Just yesterday I co-chaired the inaugural meeting of the Food and Beverage Sector Taskforce, which covers the most significant sector in our economy. It contributed over $14,000 million of export earnings last year. The task force will develop strategies to increase the value of our food and beverage sector, identify obstacles to growth, and ultimately take action to boost growth in the sector. As with other sector initiatives, we are working in partnership with that key sector of the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a880156bfba54899abed2c46cbc92125\u0022\u003EHon Matt Robson\u003C/span\u003E: What specific outcomes does the Government expect from the work of the Food and Beverage Sector Taskforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe65714988c467aa185b93d3b696799\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The task force will establish a strategic plan for the development of the food and beverage sector, and will work towards the implementation of policies that will improve sector growth. It will coordinate links and networks between the Government and business to further that goal. Specifically, among a wide range of objectives, it will develop industry knowledge and capacity, broaden product range, expand market penetration and market share, and increase skills and capabilities in the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f62df5682ec04c17a5e0e337cf37e384\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the food and beverage sector been chosen for additional economic development work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022550db7eba17c410394298a73ee2c4bda\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: We have targeted the food and beverage sector because almost two-thirds of our export earnings are from primary production. Building on that area of competitive advantage is an obvious place to start in order to boost the living standards of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002250af7817caa44b068ab2210ec8cf8cb2\u0022\u003E111 System\u2014Police Resources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40ffcfe4d9640d29507de0f6bb9bbf9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Has he taken any action to increase police resources dealing with 111 calls, since his press release endorsing the commissioner\u2019s review of the system in October; if so, what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u002227ef7897c91d4d7ab87a5a263dd003d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227ef7897c91d4d7ab87a5a263dd003d2\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I have advised the Commissioner of Police and this House that if the independent review of communication centres discloses a need for additional resources to be allocated to the centres, then those resources will be provided. I also support the commissioner\u2019s directive that all staff be fully aware that with priority one calls the nearest staff member should respond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297d9ecf02e384a67ab59345310e49631\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister explain these two contradictory statements made by him yesterday: \u201CIf the commissioner needs more resources, we will make sure that he gets them.\u201D and \u201CThe police always ask for more than they are going to get.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d985fceef94d018a666fcaa9bd825e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Easily. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956d80ae0a3a4fcf81f374e1a0c7615b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is an answer to the question. [Interruption] Order! The member knows that he cannot interject. He will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022332b8b6f590a4e59a2f3ab783a59cd1f\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Obviously, the rule is different this week from last week. Last week, on an interjection, you ruled that the member had not started speaking, so it was OK to have an interjection. This week the member had not started speaking, but the rule is different. All I seek is clarification. Can we just have the same rule for a couple of weeks in a row?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222255212363ac4458a9d3a8b9be9cbd3c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, I made a mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229de4bea85dc14ac1bf4bb5a5350c7909\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister can explain these contradictory statements so easily, would he do so now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d87e5066d9d4fa8be0a27f6868ec390\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is obvious that when we do Budget rounds, the police come with a big shopping basket. However, the police have the resources they need, and the commissioner can shift resources around if he needs to. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284b539fee5b94bdc97ef0d2b2d3e50dc\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Minister publicly stated, and reinforced just now, that it is up to the commissioner how extra resources for police are used, when in a 2002 report from the commissioner to the Minister, on Auckland policing issues, the commissioner stated: \u201C\u2026 staff funded from Government initiatives have been ring-fenced for specific areas. \u2026 the task-specific nature of these allocations has been eroding the flexibility historically available to me and to District Commanders to distribute resources across emerging problem areas in a timely or responsive manner.\u201D; explain that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb527c32cd7b4589999b20568d33602e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, the commissioner was always looking for more resources. But I can tell the House that since we became the Government we have provided over 1,000 extra staff. In Auckland, we have provided 370 extra staff in that time. Of course, some of those things are ring-fenced; with others there is flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a953c4cd746b4132ace8de307414abc2\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Consistently in this House we have trouble getting, first, answers to written questions to this Minister on time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef881045a0840318b4871adfa9099de\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please come to the point of order about this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741ab39de4b949bf9db8681a25808ce6\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is that I specifically asked about the ring-fencing of police resources, and the commissioner\u2019s own statement to the Minister that that was impeding the police\u2019s ability to utilise them. The Minister did not address the area of Government ring-fencing, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a86d7164451c4165bddbdfd4bbc6d40e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The Minister started out by not doing that, but in the last part of his answer he most certainly did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224052b4aef653477c800e127306b7a25c\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister fail in the last Budget to get the extra $8 million, at most, needed for the extra 111 operators, to fix that service for all New Zealanders, when Mr Maharey managed to get from his Cabinet colleagues $239 million to pour all over Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa, which is 29 times what the police needed, and what does he now feel about Labour\u2019s priorities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe9c6da27b204e53afd9ce15649fcc25\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The commissioner was asking for 22 additional staff there. He got 18, but, of course, he does have the power to shift more there if he needs to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d94678a868ac4808aebd2bde181744e3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If, as the Minister has told the House today, the police have all the resources they need, how does he explain the circumstances of Iraena Asher, the Bentley family, the young woman in the Waikato, and the lack of public confidence in the 111 system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e02ea7808f44ca8c4827d26fb29129\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The police have had nearly 1,000 extra staff since we became the Government. National was going to take 540 away. But this matter is subject to the review, and I want to wait for the outcome of that review, and that is what is happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b62002dd50494d25b80d2417042bbd43\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister will now come to the question actually asked. Please re-ask it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ddfdc7323e34951a5f691c88770e4eb\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If, as the Minister has told the country today, the police have all the resources they need, how does he explain the never-ending series of calamities with the 111 system, and the public\u2019s lack of confidence in it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022220de1acf407420e855017dc094bea22\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The police\u2014as does every other department\u2014go through Budget rounds. They are annual. They will ask for more money, I am sure. But I am prepared to wait for the outcome of the review, which is exactly what should happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f214ddc869aa4ad197869e845f0186cd\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be8f96d311b342d28add78f23c086c27\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Minister did address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bda161e6ef84bb2b8af7b394a550426\u0022\u003ELabour Market\u2014Youth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3246409445940698a4c7609b0228d36\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Youth Affairs: What reports has he received on young people and the labour market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022da19b642770f4473af48fefe39ac2bfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da19b642770f4473af48fefe39ac2bfa\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Data from the household labour force survey released last Friday shows that the annual average unemployment rate for 15 to 24-year-olds in 2004 had fallen to 9.4 percent, which is the lowest rate since 1988, and 10 percentage points below the all-time high reached in 1992. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe number of young New Zealanders in employment has grown by 44,000 since this Labour-Progressive Government was elected. The number of young people on the unemployment benefit dropped by an astonishing 62 percent between 1999 and 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a99a1efd80e4364aa0e6591a31398df\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What have been the Government\u2019s key initiatives for getting the youth unemployment rate down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109035359aa84e6684c7cf898f43ff2b\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has invested in a range of programmes to create greater opportunities for young New Zealanders. These include creating more than 7,000 Modern Apprenticeships; the Gateway programme, which addresses the needs of senior secondary school students; expanding careers advice; the huge expansion in industry training; and Work and Income placing special emphasis on placing young people into jobs. The results are quite astounding, and that is why we will carry on investing in that very important area of policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7f0a99c5cfe496392bdb30f42079757\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: What will the Minister do about the OECD report of January 2005, which indicates that New Zealanders are now categorised as low, middle-income earners, along with two former Communist countries; and a report that average student debt has increased from $11,664 in 1999 to $14,242 in 2004, giving working and young New Zealanders a bleak outlook under this Labour Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022484acd7daec34afb9c3276a5169c55fb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, with unemployment at a record 3.6 percent we are certainly looking to issues like skills training, productivity, exporting, adding value to commodities, the list goes on and on, to provide higher wages to New Zealanders, to join that higher group in the OECD. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EOn the issue of student debt, the member might like to know, for example, that the Swedish Prime Minister, who has just been through this country, would be telling him that young Swedish people do pay for their education. They pay for it after they have finished their degree. They pay for it through a very high level of tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ee14ed743e4f00b8b32a7a9c2e3e5d\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in the year to October 2004, 2,342 young people received the independent youth benefit and that 1,804 of them\u2014or a full 77 percent\u2014graduated on to other benefits; and what specific steps does he intend to take to stop the independent youth benefit from becoming the \u201Cdole with training wheels\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80bf15f05c64e6da650db6f923218fc\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I was just flicking through my notes, because I am sure the member will be delighted to know that under this Government the number of people who were on the independent youth benefit, but have moved off it to do other things such as education and jobs, has dropped dramatically. Unfortunately, I cannot quite find that number but, when the member asks me afterwards, I will pass it on to him. He will be very pleased with the news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e8afa5fc63e4c6b9f251d799113a634\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was quite specific with regard to 77 percent of those on the independent youth benefit having graduated to other benefits. How the Minister can suggest there was a self-congratulatory fall in the numbers is beyond the imagination of anybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703ac1bf6371493e9f6f0359f75c0c44\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That may well be so, but the Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac2f72275ae34474b8ccddfeddff56c7\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to assist young people during that crucial period in the transition from school to work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d79b3031ec714fc1a89908400423b992\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is doing a great deal. It has introduced, in particular, the Youth Transitions Service, which focuses on those young people who are at risk of falling through the cracks, once they leave school. The first five youth transitions services, which have been developed in consultation with their communities, have started in Whangarei, Waitakere, Rotorua, New Plymouth, and Porirua. Last month I announced the next five locations where the Youth Transitions Service will be established\u2014namely, Manukau, Hamilton, Gisborne, Upper Hutt, and the far north. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe service will be available in 14 regions by 2007, covering one in two people in that target group. The pace at which the service is becoming a reality is evidence of this Government\u2019s serious commitment to young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d4365609e5542a1be07fbfb75a92ffb\u0022\u003ETe W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233daf19c5a9142a5bccb9b47608ad17a\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: How much Government funding was provided to Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa in the 1998-99 financial year, and on what date did he or the then Associate Minister first have doubts that the taxpayer was getting value for money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce9a534265104e2289771aa555e279ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce9a534265104e2289771aa555e279ed\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The then Associate Minister of Education and I consistently had concerns about a range of issues in relation to this institution, including excessive growth, uneven levels of quality assurance, and management and governance capability. Funding to tertiary education institutions such as the w\u0101nanga, under rules adopted in 1998, is based on how many equivalent full-time students are enrolled. In 2003 this Government introduced a managing growth cap on all institutions. In 1999 Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa enrolled 861 equivalent full-time students, compared with 34,282 in 2003. Funding in 1998-99 was $3.9 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253cc537f680e49f9869e6b1c23d48c24\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This question was down on notice, and it specifically asked the Minister on what date he had doubts. Now the Minister has had a few hours, and it is quite important. He never answered the question, on what date he first had doubts about the taxpayer funding. When we put a question on notice, members of the Opposition have given up expecting answers to supplementary questions, but we thought we would at least get an answer to a primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b313525c174d5b9fbc16c5abaf7c2f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister certainly answered the first part of the question. As far as the question \u201Con what date\u201D, could I have an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227090bfccf1b442bdb274a0933a015d3b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is fair to say that my doubts pre-date my responsibilities as Minister of Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a4b873efb8460f9a9edd0046a4d0be\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u201COn what date\u201D does not mean \u201CIt was some time before I took over the job.\u201D It specifically asks \u201Con what date\u201D. The Minister has had several hours\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3cbd6264206439d8fc5285ad37d38aa\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Five years!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237f66865516b40639bcdcf137c85236f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, 5 years, but several hours to get an answer to this question. I think it is trifling with the House\u2014[Interruption] Mr Cunliffe might care to interject\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f855f0fd9a1a4560b23fa4707a3ce3f1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cunliffe will leave the Chamber. [Interruption] Did Mr Cunliffe interject?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0322efe3a642f793302f392c85d31a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: No, I had an involuntary yawn and it was purely physiological.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb3614d77ae43ba94e5ce69d5d52a5e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cunliffe will leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5257b928a864ebc939753ea6edc35ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I suggest to you that when members ask questions as vague as in terms of what might have happened at some distant point in the past, they can scarcely expect a precise answer. One could equally ask the member on what date did he come across this conversion that tax deductions were the answer to all problems. I doubt he could name a specific date; it is probably embedded in his genes somewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229551b92a986f47abbaf772bac5cba397\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the Minister addressed the question perfectly satisfactorily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d0577ffe7be4ab581fbc6771edbae3d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You may well have thought the Minister addressed the question perfectly satisfactorily, but I wonder whether you might like to think about what he actually said. He indicated to the House that he was concerned when the w\u0101nanga was picking up $4 million, yet did not do anything as the figure climbed to $239 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a481b828d3b4fd3b134ead0de4ca354\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. That was a comment, and the member knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c0f9f720b084435b10ee75bf688a917\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have removed Mr Cunliffe from the Chamber, and I understand the reason for that. However, it raises a point about interjections during points of order. An earlier interjection was made by a member in the ACT party that Mr Hide acknowledged in the comment he made. That should also result in a member leaving the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751acc0096334197b47c72611485207b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will make those decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d2381e08d3b4c1296380c5c9c340a5f\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that the cap imposed by this Government saw the funding expand from $8 million to $239 million, can the Minister tell us what is his response to the fact that Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa runs a corporate fleet of over 350 staff cars, including LTD limos?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e835ecbb8064770a3dfe5dc8858200e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware that Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa runs a fleet of limos. I am aware, however, of a supportive statement stating that M\u0101ori should be able to set up their own universities and that we should move past the colonial view that the Government knows what is best for M\u0101ori. That separatist statement came from Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a61ee177e2e4f9d8f6e122973a09917\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I have some clarification from Mr Mallard about a statement of self-determination being separatist?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca6a12625eb3413b905f338f3e3734f3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, because that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d969b55292ef4ad08df462ea86d2af53\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What measures have been put in place over the last 5 years in response to ministerial concerns about Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a258c5c61184d28be03f665ec6d1326\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have quite a long list. In 2001 there was a settlement around expectations on retention, completion, and staircasing. The w\u0101nanga was also subject to\u2014[Interruption] Well, Mr Brownlee and staircases and pensioners are probably an interesting point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8e3a478b6454c3ba4a3cc7e09a8575d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister, of course, can be advised by his whips as to how long he would like question time to go on for. He is ensuring that it proceeds very much more lengthily than it would. Would he please answer the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9060aad945045e381e3b9247475aa97\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: In 2001 there was an unscheduled audit from the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, and the Government put in restrictions on the offering of inducements. In 2002 Mr McNally was appointed to advise, following concerns over the rapid growth in enrolments. In 2003 the w\u0101nanga was subject to a special audit, and the Government introduced the managing-growth policy across all institutions. In 2004 the Auditor-General was asked to look into the issue of potential conflicts of interest. The New Zealand Qualifications Authority undertook a further audit, and there was a funding review of levels 1 and 2 courses. Earlier this year I wrote to the chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250a1d39b7d674b09a10e9e87b7a3cb3e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That answer is far too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4f1df43c8b46a6b7e88b0c8de3c05a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I was asked what we have done. There were allegations that I had done nothing; now people are saying that I have done too much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cca4c65240f4eb895f9bc062e988adf\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Should hard-working taxpayers be concerned that the Ministry of Education\u2019s Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit has said that it has no particular concerns about the contract arrangements between Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa and a number of contractors with family links to w\u0101nanga administrators; if so, can the Minister confirm that it is the same Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit that had no problems with the COOL IT arrangements at Christchurch Polytechnic that ripped off millions of taxpayer dollars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc1d8a7cd564014988b74f2b0a78922\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have concerns about that. My former Associate Minister, Steve Maharey, indicated that he had concerns about it. That is why the Auditor-General is looking into it. I think the Auditor-General is the appropriate person to look into conflicts of interest in tertiary institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e32582278544e13a85aaa96d1e498b2\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the ground-breaking work being done by te w\u0101nanga on second-chance education and adult literacy programmes, and what value does he put on those?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229020f9a59efc44608b113dae4b3a3cd9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I know that some very interesting work is being done by Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa. I know that it has put into tertiary education people who previously had not been able to get there. Whether those low-level courses in literacy are appropriate for a tertiary institution, I have some doubts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ead975108c241a7a8827903843d3e7d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s response when I advise him that the enormous fleet of corporate w\u0101nanga cars are groomed around the country by a single car-grooming company that is apparently on a contract that never goes out to tender?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220edc62d502964e788af15532557ab53d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Given the concerns that have been indicated to me about governance and management issues at the w\u0101nanga, I am not very surprised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd58cd31dba04f15b5e4b2edfaff6dbd\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s response to the situation whereby the large corporate fleet of w\u0101nanga cars is exclusively groomed by a company called Gazza\u2019s Groomers, which is owned and operated by Gary Wood, who just happens to be the partner of the w\u0101nanga\u2019s deputy chief executive, Min Marshall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255743fb96fc34957a1e592daba1e21b9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think that we have another thing to add to our list of things that the Auditor-General is looking at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec391ac285304c28ad9accce7bb4cf20\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm advice that I have received today from a senior education administrator that if one were to take all the staff cars owned by every university, polytech, secondary school, and primary school in New Zealand, the figure would not reach 350; if that is so, is that not yet another example that under the Minister\u2019s administration there are two laws\u2014one for the w\u0101nanga and one for the rest of the education sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d05e0d721e4e19aa7792e24d1f2cfa\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I had thought that the ACT party was the party that supported innovators and that paid people more according to their skills. These people have been very innovative, but probably not in a way I approve of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022407f5f1ce56c4728a2fda6c78f728e03\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is, I suppose, complimentary to be told by the Minister that I am in an innovative party. But we are actually asking questions about his portfolio, and I would like to know from his knowledge of the education sector whether it is right that the whole of the education sector, put together, would not have 350 staff cars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b986c03254d944e1a11f397054fab7f2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think that the member is right. Group Special Education as part of the ministry has a fleet of cars, because they go around seeing children all over the place. But in relation to the tertiary part, I think he is probably right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210fc535619ad425faca343ef01325979\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility does the Minister take for overseeing the taxpayer input into the w\u0101nanga\u2014going from $3.9 million a year up to $239 million a year\u2014which has seen millions of dollars siphoned off into shelf companies to line the pockets of Dr Rongo W\u0113tere and his family members, and those of his seconds in command and their family members, or is he content just to say he did not know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cda18d180649407b824c70c683420d72\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There were three questions there; two can be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220377b3eaf7bc4ac5b976fde0c5b4ca4b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think that what the member does know is that I am exceptionally concerned about it. Because of my concerns and those of Mr Maharey, the Auditor-General is investigating it. The promise I make is that if there have been inappropriate payments made to Rongo W\u0113tere\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ebb955f8144fa5977eb32b5816237d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t this the man who got upset about Tuku\u2019s underwear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af6227c03964dbabe1c76a4da45d93b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that member\u2019s underwear is always too tight. That is why he squeaks all the time. If money has gone out inappropriately, then every endeavour will be made to have it returned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d06b5feee5054876aaf0585148e1b0e9\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to sound like a broken record over this, but my specific question was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feaed805279b4c83a5c437c797acff07\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When is he senior to me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a3cb6356994b3aa74f44b14544650b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked a question. He had a point of order that, I presume, was about his question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223168a2e99a694a9f910a53ac259d4804\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The member does not understand. He should get used to getting second\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022798bb275bb02421bab0cf41bae96d027\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please come to the point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222209d7b2c6e34ca7a9ea5bc3856e7a3d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: My question asked what responsibility the Minister took, but he answered that he was concerned. We also know from an earlier question that he has had concerns for 5 years, so does his being concerned mean an acceptance of no responsibility? The question was: what responsibility does he accept? It was not: is he concerned?\u2014because he has been concerned for 5 years, over the very time all this happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022476790713f9645568f25d1219777a1bd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The Minister addressed the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002236c6d37c73e64255a3e14b6584605f69\u0022\u003ESecurity\u2014Money-laundering and Financing of Terrorism\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b66af6027ef64225935319d54617ba48\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is he satisfied that New Zealand laws sufficiently protect this country against money-laundering and financing of terrorism?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022a00da6e38fbc44058d1b4e2ef7174d89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a00da6e38fbc44058d1b4e2ef7174d89\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Not entirely. New Zealand has in place laws that deal with money-laundering and financing of terrorism. Indeed, it is not clear that New Zealand is being targeted by international groups involved in these activities. However, because of our largely deregulated financial system, there are potential loopholes in our laws, which require closing if we are to meet strict international requirements and to deal with local groups that may be seeking to launder money. The Government has therefore announced today a number of proposals that will tighten the laws in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c773706dc4504824a59e6a56bb167563\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: What action is the Minister taking to tighten these anti-terrorism laws?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256215a3cd5d849dea53611060594433c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The action taken is with regard to both money-laundering and the potential financing of terrorism. We are drawing up legislative and other measures that will put in place a monitoring framework to ensure that all financial institutions comply with standards to counter money-laundering and terrorist financing. These will include a registration regime for people providing money-transfer or currency-change services; statutory requirements for internal anti - money-laundering systems and procedures; and requirements to verify and retain information concerning the identity of originators of wire transfers of finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022693d2f7990bb47549268f23a6119d655\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: When does the Minister expect these measures to be in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8114a12ca6f405f86c0f1f9f4447d8d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: In regard to money-laundering, there is an inter-agency working-group that is being chaired by the Ministry of Justice, and it will shortly undertake consultation with the financial sector on anti - money-laundering compliance monitoring frameworks and a registration regime. It will report back to the Government by the end of April. In regard to terrorism, members will be aware that the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill, which broadens and tightens the laws against terrorist financing, was introduced in the House last week and is currently before a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f23791cae2944a7b840159f51354704\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Levels 1 to 3, 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266ffe17bf56c43f8b5f97cfa229b280d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education: Has the Ministry of Education reported to him on anomalies or problems in the 2004 NCEA examinations for levels 1 to 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00220b6b6649909a4046968a8732c27587bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b6b6649909a4046968a8732c27587bf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad16d955c844d5aaccbb32114f9a179\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen a report that a retired professor of chemistry and former chief examiner for the bursary exam could not complete the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) level 3 chemistry exam in the 3 hours allotted, and reports of comments made by the chair of the Canterbury Science Teachers Association that: \u201CLevel 3 students will be very disadvantaged, because they will get much lower marks than they really deserve.\u201D, estimating that 2,000 to 3,000 students would be affected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022847398003f464ac3827d20f80c1d225c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen either of those reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292fede3dde5e418ba5357be6367b79b1\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What information has the Minister received from the New Zealand Qualifications Authority about the NCEA results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229849b5c7d1464bbdb73e03bda8fc32f2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I asked for information from the Qualifications Authority, and the key information about the 2004 university entrance pass rates is that they show that in 2004, 47.2 percent of year 13 students gained university entrance, compared with 51.9 percent in 2003 and 51 percent in 2002. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d88e2530900746d28bd9eb3b4837db34\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that students who do not attempt certain external standards are marked as \u201CNot achieved\u201D; if so, might this account for the increasing number of failures in certain subjects, in light of anecdotal evidence that students are increasingly attempting only those standards that they need in order to pass the required number of credits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d40e3a6dfa18441c94bde8c9c7405006\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can. I think the factor the questioner identifies is a major one in the apparently large failure rate that is showing up. This matter will be clarified, as the full analysis of the final results is carried out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022216aaa44ebf44f5c92df1c534cd69bb0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm his earlier response that he has not seen any of these reports, and that that means he is sitting in his office and asking the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to give him reports about the bits of the NCEA that did work, so he can put those in press releases, but is ignoring the raft of stories that are coming out of the woodwork, right across the country, from students, teachers, examiners, markers, and parents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eee069bb17164ca5bfbd9b0cb68c2f10\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I did not say that I had not seen any of those reports. I referred specifically to the two reports that Mr English raised. I can assure him that I do give my attention extensively to the material that comes to me. I study it and ask for specific comment, where appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d7dd125eb5341ff979fa1e6a35ce385\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise the House what reports he has seen about NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe73808b304e41e884b06ad6cb33bc9e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can. For example, I received a report from a meeting of the secondary school representatives on the Schools Consultative Committee, which met on Monday, 14 February. I quote from that report: \u201CGenerally the sector has confidence in the NCEA. It was recognised there were still rough edges but this was inevitable, with such a major change. Again, from their perspective what was important was that there was confidence, in that as problems and issues arose, the sector and the agencies concerned worked together to address them in a credible and transparent way.\u201D That attitude is exactly the attitude the Government is taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e872a7e3224f455096bef6d469a570fa\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister interested only in good-news reports about the NCEA, and will he be interested in a paper that will be published in a New Zealand chemistry magazine, in which the author\u2014the same professor who could not finish the exam in 3 hours\u2014will say that he wonders whether the NCEA pattern of writing achievement standards in small sections is not producing an over-complex system containing too much meaningless gobbledygook, and that the length of the 2003 chemistry exam was inexcusable and a disaster for students; if so, what will the Minister do about that, or will he just ignore it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7ffa7131ae4a0ba884f85eee61bf98\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the questioner and the House that I am interested in all reports, positive and negative, about the NCEA, and I am happy to investigate any particular instances that raise concerns with the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe1dcf9db4d4582a2f4eebc95d20dc8\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What reassurance can he give an estimated 2,000 to 3,000 students who may have been disadvantaged by a shonky examination paper; what message can he give them today to reassure them that they have been not been cheated out of results they should have got, as a result of their hard work and the hard work of their teachers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236500d484ac34f20b9c5c259d776d1a4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is prepared to provide me with any substance of such allegations, I will have them investigated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac8460b8258e49688a05da6c5c258d9e\u0022\u003EPolice\u2014Auckland Staffing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022232f0baef4e44553b215fcf943e0bd01\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Can he confirm that a Budget bid was made on 14 November 2002 by the police commissioner for an extra 100 fulltime-equivalent staff in Auckland for the specific purpose of improving response times, particularly emergency response times; if so, what was his response to that request?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u002221466aee4ee64019a9a8e2b01c28fefa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221466aee4ee64019a9a8e2b01c28fefa\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E A bid was made for 100 extra staff to be deployed over 3 years. Initial bids are almost always scaled during the Budget process. The commissioner did get an extra 50 staff over 2 years. The commissioner has been given over 1,000 additional staff and $200 million extra in his budgets by this Government since 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223576263cfb8c4925bb238af0ea2a3dee\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister reconsidered his original position, given that the Government was warned by the commissioner more than 2 years ago that the response rate to emergency calls in Auckland was substandard, and if he has not, how can he continue to pass the blame on to individual police and the commissioner, when it was clearly him and this Government that failed to act and that failed the Bentley and Asher families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253bea6cb6e8b472ca770099d266a1094\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Chief executives always put up Budget bids, knowing that they will not get all that they ask for. However, I have to say that the response rates in the Auckland area generally have improved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227723b9268d344f5c84123ebdefb7c8c1\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the more than 1,000 extra police staff provided by this Government since 1999 have been deployed in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149e77ba4b0645e8b9058fbd40df3f26\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of the 1,000-plus additional police staff appointed since the Labour-led Government was elected in 1999, 370 have been deployed to Auckland. That is why the crime rate is the lowest it has been for the last 21 years, and that is why the road toll is the second-lowest since the 1960s. And more good news is on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f20c063f2c3d43c281088cda75a60e26\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If, as the Minister told the country today, the police have all the staff they need, does that mean they have enough staff to provide a 111 service that can minimise the risk to the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb6bdd03b0d34305874338d59beb1731\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The police are well provided for, but they can always do with more, and that is why we have Budget rounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210763641909b442a83926b84ec375746\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that the reason he refused to give the police the numbers they asked for in terms of their emergency response was that this Government\u2019s focus is on traffic policing, which is evidenced by the fact that 76 percent of all newly funded sworn staff since 2002 were \u201Cring-fenced for road policing\u201D, as stated in a report from the commissioner to the Minister dated 21 November 2002?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff0671c039a4b6bba5e004daec00d9a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No. I seek leave to table two documents. The first one sets straight the record of the Southern Communications Centre response to 111 calls made in the House last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8271129f763472996a3f511c4a64b1a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The other document concerns the policy not to pull detectives off serious investigations. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c87a92ff3af243c5bc4ce79804ad2db2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a press release?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2fb76a8c224059b0f03e2698b46844\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a press release from the office of the commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9e4194027a642df8d1394827fea1151\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164ec36cbeeb48ccaf14e6ebb16fd8e4\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a report from the Commissioner of Police to the Minister of Police on issues relating to policing in the Auckland area, dated 21 November 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2531f12f0fb45b8a82ce263a65cad4a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b069590e866a4a9b8186106749511b85\u0022\u003EAsbestos\u2014Compensation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229562e33fd1e349088d7f97a8aa170c01\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Has she received any advice as to the number of people who have qualified for lump-sum compensation for asbestos-related illnesses under the agreement between James Hardie Industries and former union employees that she tabled on 10 February 2004; if so, how many people have qualified?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e52f221d191e4c39bcefd2d0089a66d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e52f221d191e4c39bcefd2d0089a66d7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022756c1a246c284a83808d12ad311ae088\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, did she emphasise the 1974 agreement between former union employees and James Hardie Industries in her answer to questions from Sue Kedgley on 10 February last week, as if this agreement was a panacea, when in fact it actually has not helped a single victim as far as we can identify?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed18c5de9e5d4ce4b94ea81e6829b7ea\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because the primary question from our colleague Sue Kedgley actually related to the comparable document that is an agreement between James Hardie Industries and employees in Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dff526d34d6546f786d4265dba521902\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister tell the House again what assistance the Government gives to people with work-related asbestos-related illnesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022050e03364073472abf15a0d8c40592ba\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Claimants may receive a weekly independence allowance, which can be capitalised. They may also be entitled to earnings-related compensation; home help; childcare; treatment costs; specialist medical treatment; personal care; non-emergency transport; medical products; aids and appliances; housing modifications; and pharmaceutical medications. Their estates may be entitled to funeral grants, and any dependants may be entitled to survivor grants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1465bf031c04ca5a24a2312863cb665\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: If James Hardie Industries accepted liability for New Zealand employees who worked in its south Auckland asbestos factory on 1 April 1974, why, then, is the Minister not putting on the company the sort of pressure that the Australian Government applied to it in Australia to get it to accept liability for sufferers of asbestos-related illnesses who worked in its factories there after 1 April 1974?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42444811eb74b6b897c3a60c8d53dbb\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have had no formal approach from either former or current employees of James Hardie Industries about my entering into that sort of negotiation with the company. I would consider it if such an approach were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd9caed72080496498697e7800523c06\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with Dr Pam Smartt, who was reported in this morning\u2019s New Zealand Herald as saying that the Accident Compensation Corporation needs to adopt \u201Ca more lenient and positive approach\u201D to those who are entitled to claim in respect of asbestos-related diseases; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b779386b49e4fd8b796c433ca7ac6f6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Accident Compensation Corporation is required to administer the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222e9538846b04544963d26aaa63448cb\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that it is unfair and inequitable that a person who is diagnosed with an asbestos-related illness after 1 April 2002 is entitled to lump-sum compensation, but someone diagnosed a few months earlier is not; and why is a Labour Government with a tradition of treating workers fairly not ensuring that all people afflicted with these terrible diseases are entitled to the same compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b9978ce7bee4f808baff7b748101e41\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The determination of deemed date of injury is a matter that is currently before the courts, and I do not wish to comment on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f52fc66bad749fb9d744d9ac8f1c982\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022014b39e6eea44981805339827278cccb\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Scholarship\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00223cf3eb5c183e407b8bfe5d0ec9fca89d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cf3eb5c183e407b8bfe5d0ec9fca89d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Deborah Coddington seeking to debate under Standing Order 373 the announcement by the Associate Minister of Education of the assembly of an expert group to look into deficiencies in the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) scholarship system. The assembly of the group is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility. However, it does not meet the requirements for the immediate attention of the House, for two reasons. Firstly, the setting up of an inquiry will rarely justify an urgent debate. Even when an inquiry reports, it is only in an exceptional case that the report will justify a debate\u2014see Speaker\u2019s ruling 155/6. Secondly, the House held an urgent debate on the problems with the NCEA only last week. There can be no justification for another debate today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5a549188ec9414286d697d71e2281d8\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022971827fb51a347b4a99436e0aa38982a\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00226aa698ea3230446c906907d9bfd07f1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aa698ea3230446c906907d9bfd07f1f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. The big story of this week is Dr Don Brash. Do members remember Dr Don Brash? He was the first-term MP who elbowed his way to the top of the National Party by saying that he would set the policy agenda. That was his strength, we were told. He was no good in the House, and that is proven by the fact that he has asked four questions this year, so far\u2014one primary question and three supplementary questions. We know he cannot get the other good questions, because other members of his party will not give them to him as he is no good at asking them. He is no good at public speaking, we were told. He is no good at campaigning, he cannot get elected directly, he is no good on television, and he is not much of a team player\u2014but he does do policy well, we were told.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003ELast year we got the infamous speech at \u014Crewa, but we got no policy. What we got was a speech that ended in the sacking of Georgina te Heuheu. That is what we got from that speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWe moved on to law and order, but the rhetoric got even thicker. We learnt that we would get 10 more prisons, but no money to pay for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThis year the souffl\u00E9 tried to rise for the third time. At \u014Crewa we got the welfare debate, the adopting out of babies, and the forcible immunisation of children\u2014all the kinds of rhetoric we have heard before\u2014but no real policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe only lasting result was that Katherine Rich disappeared from the front bench. I said at the time that Katherine Rich was not moving because she was forced to; she went because she wanted to go. She was very, very wise to reposition herself, because the National Party leader is being repositioned as we speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EHe is no longer the focus of strategy. Policy is no longer what the National Party is about. Clue one: where is Murray McCully? Murray McCully used to be a limpet on the side of Don Brash\u2014the consigliere to the Don. The consigliere to the Don is not seen any more; he is gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWhat we have in his place is the slow rise of Bill English\u2014not so much souffl\u00E9 as refried beans\u2014who is appearing on the front bench of the National Party. Mr English is the one who is now being noticed by his colleagues. I predict that Mr English is about to begin to make that move. But how interesting can it get? The National Party could not be unified behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b43dcca88f734423840d3df90a0dfac2\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Five years!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc26d832eb0b47dda01d251d442f7297\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Maurice Williamson, who is calling out now, hates Bill English. Bill English hates Maurice Williamson. Gerry Brownlee wants to be the leader, but John Key is the hair\u2014and I mean \u201Chair\u201D\u2014apparent at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThis is the big story: the Brash experiment has not worked. He has no policy to inspire the troops or the nation. He is quietly being abandoned by the people around him. He is not even speaking now. He sits like a lonely cloud in the House with no one noticing, even when he leaves. He is a forgotten man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EOn 14 February 2005 it was reported that the National Party was closing the poll gap on Labour. The picture was of Don Brash, but the face was that of Tony Ryall. Tony Ryall wants to be Don Brash, at present. There is no doubt that following the next election Don Brash will be replaced as leader but there are strong signs now that the troops simply cannot wait. The damage is too great. The momentum is too weak. He does not lead; he does not even follow; he just sits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI do not know whether members have seen the film Dead Man Walking. It is a film about death-row prisoners. As those prisoners walk to their execution, people call out: \u201CDead man walking!\u201D. I will give members a break. They do not have to go to see the film, to hire the video, or to borrow the money. All they need to do is to watch Don Brash. Whenever he gets up, the House is watching Dead Man Walking. I say \u201CGoodbye!\u201D to Dr Brash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002238b16b61e7a846fa9b2419745b44e62c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238b16b61e7a846fa9b2419745b44e62c\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I think the House and the country at large is concerned at the lack of accountability that has been exposed in Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa. The Government\u2019s representative on the governing board, Mr McNally, has described a culture of executive extravagance. Yet we have also learnt this week that, under this Labour Government, funding for the w\u0101nanga went from $8 million per year to $239 million last year. That is over a quarter of a billion dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at some of the governance issues. I say at the outset that the ACT party applauds entrepreneurial spirit. We do not mind people getting rich or becoming prosperous, provided it is based on quality service provision and provided they are not rorting the taxpayer. They are the two key criteria, and I very much doubt that this organisation meets them. It is clear that a group of people in this organisation are getting very, very rich, at the taxpayers\u2019 expense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the governance situation there are a number of issues. The key question is: why has the Government not moved to address these problems? One thing we do know is that one of the major programmes, the Mahi Ora programme, was developed by a staff member and sold to the w\u0101nanga for $7 million. That was $7 million of taxpayers\u2019 money. The course was developed and sold to them by a woman called Susan Cullen\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527d0b187c814cb88f0c909cdfdabbf0\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: How much did she make?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e936547f2f334ad59375b6641cad95e6\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed! She happens to be the daughter of the chief executive officer Rongo W\u0113tere. That just happens to be a coincidence. That is the pattern of governance and, I believe, what could well be rorts in this organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe have heard today about the car-grooming business. There are dozens of these shelf companies. If we look at the ownership structure of these companies\u2014the shareholders and the directors\u2014they are all cross-pollinated. It would seem that all the same people are cross-pollinating these companies, clipping the taxpayers\u2019 ticket, and rorting the taxpayers of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI will talk about the Oma Investments shelf company, which supplies all the apparel and the resource kits. Let us be quite clear\u2014there are 27,000 students at this university. It is an enormous organisation, and the inducements that are paid\u2014using taxpayers\u2019 money, of course\u2014to get students enrolled include free T-shirts, free sweatshirts, free briefcases, and free laptops, which students are told they can keep at the end of the course. Why? Because every time the w\u0101nanga enrols someone, it gets funding for another equivalent full-time student\u2014another $5,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money. We learnt last year that it even enrolled members of Parliament. Members of Parliament were staggered to find that they had been enrolled in a w\u0101nanga course. One needs only to stand in a queue for a hamburger, particularly if one looks M\u0101ori, and the next thing one knows one is enrolled and getting the kit with the apparel and all the rest of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003ESo Oma Investments supplies all this equipment. Guess who the shareholders are? The shareholders are the w\u0101nanga chief executive officer Rongo W\u0113tere, the campus manager from Te K\u016Biti, the ex-chairman of the council, three other council members, and the directors. It is made up of Rongo W\u0113tere, two of his sons, the chairman of the council, and so on. This is an absolutely endemic pattern. That structure was revealed in the parliamentary select committee inquiry that was tabled in the House, yet the Government has continued to pump in nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in one financial year into this organisation. The quality of some of the courses provided is such that I have information to say that students do not even need to finish a course, they need only to enrol. The w\u0101nanga is not interested after a student enrols; it has its $5,000. There are no quality checks. It even seems that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is giving out certificates to students who are now complaining because they pulled out of their courses, yet they got their full kit\u2014their T-shirts, their sweatshirts, and their computers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7634015b40c40e3917848b8eee0730c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7634015b40c40e3917848b8eee0730c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E The 9-year experiment of the ACT party is almost over. Its founders have deserted it. Roger Douglas has given up. The members hate each other. There are eight people in the party and six of them think they should be leader, but only 1.6 percent of the country thinks that ACT should have anything to do with governing, or that it should be in Parliament. We will see the last of that party in September of this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut the public is asking another question, and that is the question I want to focus on today. That question is: where is Dr Brash? This is the third week of the parliamentary session. Dr Brash asked a question on the first day, and he has not been heard of since. Maybe he is following the advice that it is better to remain silent and be thought inadequate than to open one\u2019s mouth and prove it. Time and again in this House Don Brash has opened his mouth and proven his inadequacy to lead the National Party. Bill English knows that. Bill English sees that. Bill English remembers that he was stabbed in the back by that newcomer to Parliament. Bill English will show the same loyalty to Don Brash as Don Brash showed to him, and he cannot wait. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EDr Brash is as silent now as he was during that great catastrophe, the tsunami. I remember that Dr Brash left the country 3 days after the tsunami to take a holiday in Hawaii. He said nothing before he went. He lay on the beach for 10 days and said nothing. Then he came back and criticised his fellow New Zealanders for doing too little about the catastrophe. Don Brash has learnt nothing. This House remembers when Don Brash made a comment in the Australian newspaper about this country being just another small Pacific Island State on the path to failure. There is the man who wants to be Prime Minister of New Zealand but runs down his own country. And he got the reaction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222568a5e7b5f34b22981bf25251b1f63a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dce92b053fe4d26b038870e69708394\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That member knows the record. The article was written, and that is what it said. Well, I am proud to be a citizen in this small Pacific Island country. I am proud to be a citizen in a country that since the year 2000 has created more than a quarter of a million jobs. I am proud to be a member of a Government that has seen unemployment in the last year alone fall by 19 percent to the lowest level in more than 21 years. I am proud to be a member of a Government that is currently seeing 126,000 people in job training, with over 8,000 of those on the Modern Apprenticeships scheme. I am proud to be the Minister of Justice in a Government that has seen crime fall by 18 percent to the lowest level in 21 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut I go back to my original question. Why has Dr Brash been rendered mute in this country? I believe that it is a crisis in confidence, because of his appalling mismanagement of the Katherine Rich affair. I want to finish by quoting this question, asked by Linda Clark to Dr Brash: \u201CDo you have a problem with women?\u201D. Dr Brash replied: \u201CI don\u2019t believe so.\u201D Linda Clark said: \u201CWell, Georgina te Heuheu; Lynda Scott is not standing again, or seems to feel marginalised by you in some way; and Katherine Rich. No female on the front bench.\u201D, and Dr Brash said: \u201CThere are a number of reasons why Lynda Scott is leaving.\u201D, and \u201CGeorgina certainly is a woman; Katherine is as well.\u201D What perception and insight! He said: \u201CI\u2019ve explained why both of these people couldn\u2019t continue in their portfolios.\u201D Linda Clark also said: \u201CBut you\u2019ve got to be able to work with women.\u201D, and Dr Brash replied: \u201CEr, absolutely\u2014and I can.\u201D Yeah right! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe problem with Dr Brash is not that he cannot work with women but that he cannot work with any of his caucus. There are now more former front-bench members of the National caucus than there are people currently sitting on the front bench. Dr Brash has brought a management style from the corporate sector to his caucus, and it has failed. More than one of them has a grin on their face right now, anticipating the day Dr Brash will be knifed in the back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00224a1ee1f8001748a68f02aea34e209847\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a1ee1f8001748a68f02aea34e209847\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I suppose it is to be expected that Labour would be worried about Dr Brash\u2019s relentless rise in the polls, but the real crisis of confidence is one that Labour still cannot understand, and that is the crisis of confidence of 150,000 young New Zealanders in the school qualifications for which they study so hard. Why did the Government not mention that today? The other crisis of confidence is between Helen Clark and her main \u201CMr Fix-it\u201D Ministers: Trevor Mallard, Steve Maharey, and David Benson-Pope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope and Trevor Mallard remind me of one of those pantomime horses we see when the kids are doing a show. They both are fighting to be the back end! Neither of them wants to be responsible for stories like the one today, where the head of the chemistry teachers association\u2014a man whom I have never met, and who probably has no partisan bent\u2014tells us that 2,000 to 3,000 students were disadvantaged by a shonky exam. A professor of chemistry who used to set and mark exams could not pass that exam in the time allotted. That is why the Prime Minister has panicked, and today she has dumped the Minister of Education right in the middle of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt turns out that he knew about the shonky New Zealand Scholarship results, because he told the Prime Minister about them on 15 or 16 January. He knew then, because the New Zealand Qualifications Authority had told him the day before. We are not talking about some large, complicated analysis of the millions of papers, which they keep referring to; we are talking about a single-page table that shows the number of people who entered, and the number of people who passed. How could he know that fewer people were passing scholarship than expected without his having seen the table that showed the subjects? Was he given just the little bit at the bottom\u2014the rest being covered up\u2014and told: \u201CTrevor, you\u2019re allowed to see only the one number at the bottom.\u201D? Was he given a big, square sheet of paper with one number on it, and the rest was withheld under the Official Information Act, because it was not in the public interest? How ridiculous!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EHe was told on 14 January. He told the Prime Minister on 15 January. He was told again on 17 January. On 18 January his most senior officials, Karen van Rooyen and Howard Fancy, convened an officials group to work on the problem. On 26 January he put out a press release. Was it not wonderful? In it he said: \u201CAs this is the first time the new Scholarship system has been run, there is particular interest in the patterns of results \u2026\u201D. Except that today he told the House he never looked at the pattern of results. He is particularly interested\u2014so particularly interested that he never even looked at it. Who believes that? The Minister also stated: \u201CProvisional results indicate that some students did exceptionally well in Scholarship, but didn\u2019t necessarily\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238db07b84bc24213aa10ba996c5be4e5\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I thought you might have intervened at that point. A member\u2019s word has been given in this House, and it cannot be doubted in this House, as it was then by the Hon Bill English. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242c461a2d2e94c5f8d8e34fb74f65bdd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I heard it and I think it was borderline. In fact, that is the way I accepted it\u2014as being very borderline. But I did hear it. It was hypothetical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223050e709ec534c618b1a734bd4d2c994\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: So there is particular interest, and there is detail about the provisional results\u2014so detailed that, apparently, he knows how many students sat three subjects, and others that are not publicly available. But, apparently, he did not know anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis press release was an attempt to cover up shonky results in New Zealand Scholarship, which came to public attention only because concerned teachers and parents brought them to public attention. What we now know, from what the Prime Minister and the Minister have said, is that we would never have heard about that from those people. They set so much more store by the aspirations of young New Zealanders, but they did not do what they should have done\u2014that is, tell the public. We would never have known\u2014never. It would not have happened. It would have stayed covered up by the 26 January press release.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn the real scrap going on now between the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Minister, whose head will roll\u2014Karen van Rooyen\u2019s or the Minister\u2019s? I say it will be the Minister\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002298c93de7d7994ea28a0c8720b63c27e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298c93de7d7994ea28a0c8720b63c27e3\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The whiff of the election has finally penetrated the previously blocked nostrils of the Opposition. The comatose members opposite have come out of their stupor and their sloth, and they are setting out to convince New Zealanders that they are fit for the purpose of governing the country. Well, for 2\u00BD years they have been backbiting, back-stabbing, divided, and demoralised\u2014and that is just within the National Party caucus. Now they want Kiwis to believe they are united, they are brimming with ideas and policies, and they are eager to take the country boldly forward. Yeah, right! It is all a bit rich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ELet us examine their warrant of fitness for the job. Do they pass the test? Are there too many broken bits, too many worn out bits? Are they riddled with corrosion and rust? Are their indicators on the blink? Has the previously sleek limo\u2014only affordable by the rich\u2014turned into a clapped-out hunk of junk? Where is the key to their future? Is he sitting two seats along from their leader? And who is in the driving seat, anyway? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWell, New Zealanders could be forgiven for thinking it is supposed to be Don Brash, but everyone knows that it is the invisible man, Murray McCully, who is often described as National\u2019s powerful strategy and tactics man. He is a shadowy figure. He certainly does not represent the East Coast Bays in this Parliament. We never see him. When did he last speak in this Parliament? When did he ask a question? When did he last sit on a select committee? He is not even a permanent member of a select committee. Everybody else has to carry his load. He reminds me of a mole. Moles work underground, they cannot see 10 centimetres ahead of them, and their main purpose is to dig holes for everybody else to fall in. Even Molesworth \u0026amp; Featherston, in its latest edition, thinks Murray McCully has lost the plot. This is the man who called the scrupulously neutral and honest commentator Colin James a leftist, and who said this week that the use of condoms is an official endorsement of homosexuality. He should say that to the thousands of hot-blooded heterosexual males.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDon Brash is the puppet and Murray McCully is the puppeteer. He has turned Don Brash into the metamorphosis man\u2014the man who is constantly changing his principles and constantly changing his policies. Dr Brash reminds me of one of those plasticine stick men that we can bend and twist in any direction we want to put them in at any one time. In fact, he is able to portray two different positions at the same time. He was for and against the seabed and foreshore legislation. He was against 4 weeks\u2019 holiday and now he is for 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. He was for civil unions; now he is against civil unions. He was against the superannuation fund; now he is for the superannuation fund. He was for Simon Power; now he is against him. He was for Katherine Rich; now he is against her. He was for Georgina te Heuheu; now he is against her. He was for Lynda Scott; now he is against her. He was against Nick Smith; now he is for him. He is both for and against Gerry Brownlee, and he is still making up his mind about John Key. He is for blokes, but he is against women\u2014although, to be fair, he has been heard to say he has great respect for women. I am sure that even some of his best friends are women. He even recognises that Georgina te Heuheu and Katherine Rich are women. That is amazing. It took him 2 weeks to find a woman who was willing to talk about him in a positive light after he made the National Party front bench a woman-free zone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI think my local paper, the Cook Strait News, got it right in its editorial last week when it wrote this about Don Brash: \u201CDon Brash is starting to show his age \u2026 the good doctor is edging towards a twilight of shuffling around the kiwifruit orchard in slippers, making unsolicited and long-winded small talk with passing strangers \u2026 He\u2019s started up with schemes that were disastrous in the middle of last century, but now have a certain nostalgic appeal to anyone who was young then.\u201D I would say that that paper has it about right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWhat about policy? To get an insight into National\u2019s policy, we have to buy the Independent and pay $550 for a table, to be able to find out what National Party policy is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbb802054b8048eaa044ca7a83a55700\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbb802054b8048eaa044ca7a83a55700\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I bring to the attention of the House an area of great concern to Aucklanders, and that is the forthcoming rates increases that the various councils are beginning to speak about. It is often said that it is the straw that, indeed, breaks the camel\u2019s back. United Future has campaigned hard for a long time in this parliamentary term for a zero rating of rates for GST purposes. Now, when we begin to see again that the rates increases in Auckland City are running at double and triple the current rate of inflation, I believe that this issue needs to be brought to the forefront and to our attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EEarlier this year our member Gordon Copeland brought in a member\u2019s bill that would have achieved the zero rating of GST on rates. Many in the House chose not to support that measure, yet the cost would have been only $160 million. With the Budget in surplus and debt tracking down, $160 million is almost petty cash territory in relation to total Government expenditure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ELook at the interesting scenario we have in Parliament right now. The current Minister of Finance was an opponent of GST being applied to rates when he was a Labour Party senior whip. The Leader of the Opposition, whom we have heard much about in this debate, Dr Don Brash, was the co-chair of the committee that recommended that GST be applied to rates. He is the same leader\u2014Don Brash\u2014of the National Party whom I heard badgering in this House yesterday against United Future because we wanted, and supported, an increase in fuel tax so that we can get the gridlock and the roads unlocked in the fine city of Auckland. That same leader was on the committee that put a tax upon a tax. Every fair-minded New Zealander knows that GST on rates is just a tax on a tax. One of the things that concerns me as a mere tradesperson who went into business\u2014[Interruption] I do understand GST far better than Chris Carter, for example, who offered to have me briefed by the Inland Revenue Department on zero rating of rates for GST purposes, only to be told that our understanding was correct and his understanding was not correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ERemoval of GST will not alter the revenue intake by local authorities. Both Australia and Canada do not have GST on their rates, because they consider it a tax on a tax. Yet when we try to deal with that issue for the public of New Zealand we get a press release from the chairman of the Local Government Forum, Simon Carlaw, stating that United Future\u2019s campaign to get rid of GST on rates would raise costs for everyone. Clearly, and unfortunately, those people in local government do not understand the issue that we are dealing with. Let us be clear. The removal of GST on rates will not alter the revenue of councils or the net revenue of businesses. It will, however, mean that the 12.5 percent GST impost will no longer be added to the bills of 1.7 million New Zealand ratepayers. The ratepayers need a break. Councils will increase rates from time to time, but let us give them a fair go. They know that 9 percent of a rates bill goes to the Government coffers as a tax on a tax. United Future says that it is time to remove GST from rates. That would provide a 12.5 percent leeway so that over the next few years the hard-working New Zealand ratepayers\u2014the homeowners of this country\u2014will at least get a break and the camel\u2019s back will not have to be broken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ERemoval of GST will positively affect the cash-flow position of ratepayers. They will have more dollars in their hand. I have never seen a Government that is such an expert at collecting tax as this Labour Government has been. The surplus is incredible. If the Government genuinely wants people to save, if it genuinely wants people to become homeowners, let us not put another negative on that by thumping the poor old ratepayer once again. Let us give them a break. Let us remove the GST from rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c08d62df8a924496a171c35b0ce91a41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c08d62df8a924496a171c35b0ce91a41\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This morning I had the joy of cycling from Wainuiomata, a lovely little town just outside of Wellington, with three parliamentary colleagues. It was a delightful thing to do, a most appropriate thing to do, because it is Bike Wise week. Bike Wise week is a week devoted to encouraging people to get off their backsides to use their own means of getting around on a bicycle. One might say that it is a sort of frivolous thing to do, but unless we encourage our younger people to adopt different lifestyles the reality is that a lot of people will get sicker as a consequence of having too little exercise in their lives. Type 2 diabetes is the most striking manifestation of this, probably, at $200 million a year annual cost to our health budget. It is something that is likely to blow out sometime in the next 20 years to over $1 billion\u2014$1 billion that we could quite easily avoid from an input of relatively modest sums of money to encourage lifestyle changes at this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EIs biking difficult? Is getting out and getting exercise difficult? Well, it is in a society that has been designed around the motorcar. If people want to ride a bike, they take their life in their own hands to do so. For the uncertain it can be a scary prospect. In fact, this city has made some attempt to make it, slightly easier. It has taken some of the grit and the gravel off the cycleway, but none the less it is not the kind of thing that most people would do willingly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EFor the rest of the country\u2014well, could I say that the land transport roading programme last year devoted something like $100,000 to each community for cycling initiatives. Most local authorities have not actually budgeted to spend that money. They have nothing in their particular roading programmes or in their regional land transport strategies to spend that money on. None the less the money is there to do it. It is a move by the Government in the right direction. What we have to do now is make sure that those local authorities take it seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe other reason Bike Wise is important this week is that it is an important part of changing the culture of high energy demands that our lifestyles require. Climbing into motorcars to travel to places that we should have been much closer to in the first place is not only extraordinarily expensive, it is extraordinarily risky. Some time in this century the carbon dioxide levels are likely to double. They have increased by only 90 parts per million in the last 240-odd years. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says that, in fact, they are likely to increase this century by 550 parts per million from 370-odd parts per million. In fact, since it made that prediction, there have been announcements of 3 and 4 parts per million increase in carbon dioxide per year, which gives a doubling to something like 775 parts per million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ENow a 90 parts per million increase in carbon dioxide levels over the space of a mere 240 years gives rise to 1 degree of warming\u2014large parts of northern China and large parts of Inner Mongolia turning to desert, and extreme weather events. What can we look forward to, if, in fact, carbon dioxide levels double this century? It is not the kind of thing about which we can simply say: \u201CWell, it may not happen, the technicians will come up with a fix.\u201D It is something that all of us have to take seriously, and nothing less than a substantial culture change will do it. The reality is that the Kyoto Protocol is a requirement of all of us. This country has given an example, accepted the responsibility, and it now has to measure up to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EAs I said, nothing less than a substantial culture shift will meet that responsibility. So what is this culture shift? Well, it is sourcing our needs closer to home. It is choosing to live closer to the places we need to be so we do not spend half our lives getting there and the other half of our lives earning the money to pay for it. It is actually supporting Buy Local. It is actually going into our supermarkets and looking around for the products that are made here and that do not have an ecological footprint of thousands of miles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI find it absurd, in a food-producing nation, that something over 60 percent of the product on the shelves in this country are imported. In a food-producing nation, that is absurd. It is also something we can no longer afford to continue; carbon dioxide and sanity decide otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212030c096d25456795a62fe6d5d63d8f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call\u2014[Interruption] Does Jill Pettis wish to take the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b09e84c40e474f90931568e797e9a26b\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: No, not us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022afb443fd15544462930c9edd9f94756f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afb443fd15544462930c9edd9f94756f\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is fortunate. We move up into the slots, due to other people\u2019s disorganisation, but no doubt they will get their act together. I do not mind that they do not, because we are in election year. But\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ba8b98e51f4436ab96de147ef8d1ba9\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: It is not our call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299fb3259e68c4ab39938a51f54fd997e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is somewhat unusual, and I want to try to traverse it a little bit carefully in order not to breach Speakers\u2019 rulings and a tradition in this matter. It is my understanding that there is a party with only one member, the M\u0101ori Party, that does not have a whip to keep it up to date. I wonder whether a messenger could be sent to Ms Turia\u2019s room to let her know that she has twice now missed her call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f00f40ff24474bbd81ab78a9dc54d8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising that. It is a simple issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022454b66f8f8894a0aaa17ae760af0b3d8\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b85f1797d6e8471b9bb171b7f89a234c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, having said it was a simple issue I will take some more advice on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b37e914d314ac3874fc7b4b719476b\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: When the member did not take the call, because the member is not here, I sought the call before my colleague in New Zealand First. On the schedule National is in the 10th spot. I am here, and I did seek the call. But you did give the call to Mr Mark. He also sought the call, but I think I was on my feet earlier. You might not have noticed, but I did go for the call. But he is No. 12 on the list. So I seek your indulgence as to who should actually get the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e336ee645d7470ca1c977b15dca2e14\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I have actually given the call. But\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eaa83d60c024794ac3a35f5adc2cc1b\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022984cd596f2844edab1404cbab0633982\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any more assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c7354d3ffd347d9a59647cb14f506e5\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: It is a different point of order altogether.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d491f7b996cf4e2a8eeaf84d29b774b7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want to deal with the previous point of order, and the member may then raise his point of order. We have a list here, which I am following very closely. If members had taken the hint, we would not have got into this. They did not take the hint. I gave the call to not the only person on his feet seeking it, but the one in my clear vision, and I apologise to Mr Tisch for that. But I have given the call to Ron Mark on that one, and we are not about to use any resources of the House or any messengers to whip the M\u0101ori Party member. So that is where that lies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c129e5a7c4c74a009b952d0c4e64f633\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Our Standing Orders are quite clear that a member may not refer to the absence of another member. It is quite wrong and, indeed, a serious breach of our Standing Orders for Mr Mallard to try to do that under the guise of a point of order. That was very unruly, certainly a clear breach of our Standing Orders, and very unfair on the member who may not be here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff2fce50ea34fd9a17a753ecc1439ef\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the absence of a member was referred to. I took it as the member trying to be helpful in the situation, but I thank the Hon Ken Shirley for raising it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c47c29f96c674ef68efe6fb41e8334b4\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. For your information, and to clarify and assist the House, I can inform the House that New Zealand First has just had communication with the member concerned, and the member has expressed that she will not be speaking in this debate, so I leave it to you and the whips to sort this out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e3b4dbfc214d43a87563316b2149ea\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228619e4131cd247d3aa06f17b964ca9bd\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I recall, in 1996, when I came to this House as a member of the New Zealand First caucus, seeing members on the Opposition benches frothing at the mouth, foaming about, and telling the Government of the day what they were going to do about crime and law and order. In fact, one of the key speakers in that Opposition team was the man now known and referred to as the Hon George Hawkins. Mr Hawkins in those days lambasted the Government for the lack of resources for the police and, in fact, in one particularly famous speech he accused the Government of under-resourcing the police because they were not able to paint out the scratches on their vehicles. Indeed, he said they were having to use Twink to cover the scratches on their vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWell, a lot of water goes under the bridge, and eventually a man who spent 9 years planning to be in Government, to be the Minister, to implement a National Crime Authority\u2014something that he just dismissed as a possibility yesterday, when it was called for by one of the other Opposition members\u2014is now the Minister, is now totally in control of resourcing for the police, is now the one person the police go to for resources and to get the priorities, and what are we seeing? Today we see a crisis of confidence in the police from the public. Today we have a situation where members of the public now know that if they have an emergency they can dial 111 and get a taxi. They were then told that if they dial 111 and people do not listen to them, they should scream louder down the phone. Then they were told that if they dial 111 they would be told where the nearest police station was and they could walk to get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat is at the heart of all of this? The heart of all of this is the priorities and the resources this Government gives to the police. We have known for quite a long time that there has been dissension and division in the police ranks, with general duties officers calling the other lot \u201Csnakes\u201D\u2014the \u201Csnakes\u201D are out there issuing their quota tickets. The Government sits by and plays Pontius Pilate and says that it is a police issue and the police determine the priorities. From reading the 2003-04 supplementary questionnaire to the examination of the estimates, in the baseline update reports and the comments, we now see there are specific requests in there from the Commissioner of Police asking this Government for specific resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat did he say? He said that the Auckland area was failing in its ability to respond to emergency calls, with 45 to 55 percent reaching the standard of 10 minutes. He asked for 100 extra officers just to deal with responses to emergencies. What did he get? He got one-third of that figure over 3 years. Yet this Minister has the audacity to sit here and tell the House that he has no control over the police resources or where they go and what they do. We now know that that is not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIn a report written for the Minister we now know that the police have said as far back as 2002 that their ability to deploy the resources to meet the emerging threats to law and order are now being heavily interdicted by the Government, which ring-fenced resources for specific tasks only. We also now know from that same report that the Government has put the primary focus not on providing general duties officers to fight crime, and promote law and order, but the Government has put the focus on providing traffic cops. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EHow do we know that? We know that because this report stated at that time that of the 375 newly funded sworn staff allocated by strategic priority, the main beneficiaries had been road policing\u2014285 positions. That says it all. That says that the Minister is manipulating how the police operate, the Government is dictating where the resources go, and the Government is emphasising a policy of road safety over and above all else. Today we get a bizarre statement from a police officer saying that no detectives are being pulled from serious investigations. The Government should tell that to a woman who has had her house invaded and burgled. Does this Government not have any idea of how personal a burglary is and how serious it is to people? Clearly not!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022db5c7c8fab9847dd9840e56d082de7ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db5c7c8fab9847dd9840e56d082de7ab\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The Prime Minister opened the parliamentary session with one of the more uplifting speeches that I have heard in some time. I well remember the contribution made by the leader of New Zealand First, Winston Peters, when he said of the National Party that it now has three factions. I went back home and sought to put the names and addresses of each member of the National caucus into one of those three factions, and I could not. I took Winston Peters\u2019 speech seriously and tried to fit the National members into one of three factions, but I could not. The reason is that I have six factions. Normally, one does not get six factions in a political party; normally there are just two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae4a764c75c4f27b2c9f25cefacb77c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What about ACT?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257473c08cd03419b9ed92c2407a3d2c4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: ACT has four factions. It had four people running for the leadership, and therefore the ACT members split themselves four ways. For example, New Zealand First had just two factions: those who went off with the Government of the day, and those who did not. Certainly, the Labour Party has had its splits and divisions in its history. I am sorry to say that we had a fair bit to do with the starting of the ACT party and of United Future. I guess we got ourselves up to three, but not to six, factions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s factions are not firm factions; they move daily. But they do have a certain pattern to them, and they are often determined around behaviour, gender, or geography. It is worth taking a look at how those factions come to be. The first faction is the group of National MPs who will speak freely about what is going on in the National Party caucus, as compared with those who do not. So it may be an issue of discipline, it may be an issue of disaffection with the leader, or it may be a little bit of each. When we look at the members who speak out and have something to say about the good Dr Brash, generally speaking we find that they are people whom one expects will not vote for the good Dr Brash when he comes up for re-election after his failure at the next general election. Lynda Scott is an obvious example of that, and Brian Connell is another. We can see\u2014and I will be careful not to mention some names\u2014that a number of National Party caucus members are quite happy to speak out, including off the record, but they find themselves reported as: \u201CNational MP says \u2026\u201D. We have a list of their names. As I said, they include some unfortunate examples, and I will not read that list out. However, there is certainly a faction that will speak out versus those members who will not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe second faction, of course, is based on gender. The leader of the National Party has six women members in his caucus, but none of them are on the front bench. One of them has decided to retire, one of them got the biff earlier this year, and one of them got the biff earlier last year. That is three out of six women who are disaffected, and, of course, they are supported by the other three. So there is certainly a gender faction within the National Party; there is no doubt about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe other group of MPs who are offside with Dr Don Brash are South Islanders. I do not know why, but it just so happens that his predecessor, Bill English, is from the South Island. The aforementioned Katherine Rich is from the South Island, as is the woman who is retiring, Lynda Scott, and also Nick Smith, who was to be the deputy and then he was not, and, of course, the member for Rakaia, Brian Connell, a member of the National caucus who publicly said about his own leader: \u201CI am very disappointed. I think it\u2019s a stupid decision.\u201D He comes from the South Island. There are only two MPs from the South Island who are not on that list. One of them is Gerry Brownlee, and I will come to him in a minute, and the other one is who? Who have I missed out? Which South Island MP have I missed out? That is right; nobody can remember. David Carter is from the South Island. He sits there as the one South Island MP who is probably still onside with the leader. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThen there is the brat pack. One of them is retiring, one of them was the leader, one of them was going to be the deputy leader, and one of them is Tony Ryall. The members of the brat pack are not the friends of Dr Brash because one of the brat pack is Dr Brash\u2019s predecessor, and that faction sits there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThen there are the young and the restless. At the moment the young and the restless really have only three true, paid-up members. They are Katherine Rich, John Key, and \u201CSimon Says\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f89a2dc60f40f189f0bc36c4b2c6be\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235de89f2b77040c287e2f15534233426\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; Simon Power. Let me tell the House something about the young and the restless. They had a to-do just last week, when Simon Power had to tell Katherine Rich not to resign from politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c24c9b0b618641799f1e8956183d50d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c24c9b0b618641799f1e8956183d50d5\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E There is a major issue brewing in rural areas that affects the lives and security of many, many people. A cloud is starting to develop that this Government will have to take responsibility for. I refer to the news of the last few days about the cut-back in fire appliances and fire trucks in regional areas. Here we have a headline \u201CBrigades fear trucks could go in shakeup\u201D. The Minister then comes out and says: \u201CBurton denies plans to cut fire engines.\u201D In the same article the Fire Service national operations director, Steve Turek, said on Monday that it was possible some fire stations may lose fire engines. So who is right? The Minister said that there will be no cuts or reductions, yet the operations manager said that there will possibly be some cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI have asked some parliamentary questions about this issue. One question was: \u201CDoes the Fire Service intend to reduce the number of Fire Trucks \u2026?\u201D. The answer came back from the Minister: \u201CI am advised that it does not.\u201D In another question I asked: \u201CIf there is a reduction in the number of Fire Trucks \u2026 how many will be involved and at what locations?\u201D. The Minister said I should refer back to what he had stated previously. I have a document about the fleet strategy, which I intend to table after this debate. The New Zealand Fire Service\u2019s fleet strategy states: \u201CThe initial application of this strategy shows that over the first five years, 54 new appliances will be introduced. This will stimulate the relocation of 250 appliances and a condition report for 136 appliances.\u201D That document states that there will be a relocation of appliances, and the Minister has said that there will not be one\u2014which is right? Is the Fire Service right in saying that it will relocate fire appliances, or is the Minister sticking to his denial, as he did in the newspaper today, of any cut in the number of fire engines? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis is a serious matter. The Fire Service fleet strategy report further states: \u201CAppliance relocations and disposals will be inevitable as we work to get the actual fleet allocation aligned with the authorised fleet establishment.\u201D It is quite clearly the intention of the Fire Service to reduce the number of fire appliances. In fact, I am told that that figure could be as high as 143 fire appliances. Where will they come from? They will come from the small rural brigades that are at the forefront of fighting fires and looking after our interests. They are the first to arrive at the site of accidents, yet this Government has no respect for the commitment and contribution that volunteer firefighters make to New Zealand. There are 11,000 of those people. They give up their time. They are at the forefront. This Government is sticking it to them and saying that their contribution is not recognised and not worthy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis draft report on the fleet strategy also states, under the heading \u201CBarriers to overcome\u201D: \u201CBarriers that need to be addressed as part of this strategy include: The existing fleet allocation needs to be reshuffled in the best interests of our service and the people we protect. This will require management commitment, tact, and diplomacy.\u201D There it is. The Fire Service is saying it will do that, yet the Minister said in answer to my written questions that there would be no reduction in or relocation of appliances, and in the paper today also said that there would be no relocations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI have here the Transalpine fleet strategy, dated 16 July 2004. That presentation, made by fire managers, identifies exactly where the machines are placed in the Transalpine fleet area and what will happen to them. I will table it, because it clearly articulates and shows that the Government will move to reduce them. People\u2019s lives are at stake, and the Government will be held accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table two documents. The first is the New Zealand Fire Service\u2019s fleet strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022477e955dd1f44b66a55d7bec9925763b\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The second document is the Transalpine fleet strategy report of 16 July 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022 data-id=\u00227637753b255642afb43e4b8e0cf2dd95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227637753b255642afb43e4b8e0cf2dd95\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E Recently I spoke with parliamentarians in another jurisdiction, and they asked me why this Parliament operates by insult. I thought that was a good question to ask. On listening today to question time and to many of the speeches, particularly to the speech made by the Hon Bill English, I think it is time to reflect on whether we should actually look at issues and at the way we can move the country ahead, rather than continuing to operate by insult. National, ACT, and New Zealand First lead the pack, but many of us are tainted by it. It was good to have the Swedish Prime Minister in New Zealand this week. His Government is the successor of a string of socialist Governments that have concentrated for over 6 decades, with rarely a break in Government, on public investment in infrastructure, on building security for their people, and on having a planned economy. In contrast, New Zealand started off in the 1930s, at the same time as Sweden did, with a Government committed to using public resources to build the economy and social infrastructure in a planned and rational way. But, unfortunately, there have been very long periods of right-wing Government, which have interrupted the progress that would otherwise have been made for the benefit of all people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EOver the past 5\u00BD years, however, we have had, in a coalition Government, a progressive administration that for the first time in three generations\u2014the first time in almost 60 years\u2014has a realistic chance of winning a third consecutive election. The Government has learnt from the Swedish model. The fact that pundits judge that there is the chance of a third term shows that achievement. It has been made possible because this progressive Government has had a clear strategy of partnership, of sensible intervention in the economy, of social development, and of investing sensibly in our infrastructure. A reflection of that success is the unemployment rate, which is the very lowest in the entire OECD group of wealthy nations. It has been reflected in the breaking of all records on job creation, in the extending by 33 percent of workers\u2019 annual holiday entitlement to 4 weeks\u2019 leave, and in the introduction and extension of paid parental leave for working parents. It has been further reflected in putting investment into regional and industry sectors that have delivered economic development better than Australia\u2019s over the past 5 years, so reversing the previous 30-year record of failure. Those achievements have come about because attention has been given to the key issues. We have seen an increase in the investment in public health and education, to the benefit of all New Zealanders. The list of achievements is extraordinarily long because the work behind it has been extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003ESweden\u2019s Government has kept winning elections for decade after decade because it has stood four-square for strong investment in public education and health services, combined with intelligent, pragmatic economic and social policies conducive to ensuring that Sweden is able to sell to the world. Just last week that country, with some of the highest and most progressive income taxes in Europe, announced that it will, over the next decade, increase them further in order to further bolster its already world-class public services, which are the envy of the world. The Swedes enjoy free, high-quality school and university education, generous unemployment benefits if people fall out of work, State-funded maternity and paternity leave, guaranteed childcare, and much more. But Sweden has a pragmatic approach to its economy. For example, alongside its progressive taxation system it has a headline business tax rate of 28 percent, so that it can compete with its European Union partners. There is no contradiction for a successful social democratic party in raising income by a progressive taxation system, while simultaneously reducing the corporate headline tax rate and promoting planned economic development with flexible policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EI started off by talking about the policies of insult, and I have a warning for ACT. ACT is presently throwing accusation after accusation against Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa. The Progressives do not advocate that there be a turning away from the allegations that have been raised\u2014there have been some serious allegations\u2014but that the process of investigation be fair and not be conducted in the atmosphere of a kangaroo court. It does no good in New Zealand, when we have a successful institution that has developed successful literacy programmes to tackle the 530,000 adult New Zealanders who are illiterate or functionally illiterate, to have ACT, in a scramble to get above 5 percent in the polls, intoxicated by the politics of insult. I believe, and the Progressive Party believes, that a country moves ahead if it looks seriously at its problems but does so in an atmosphere of analysis and informed debate, and not in one of the politics of insult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022cebb0a6d0a944ccfb6619e4872d56c43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cebb0a6d0a944ccfb6619e4872d56c43\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to join the debate today, because some very interesting dynamics have gone on in the House this afternoon. Mr English was the first speaker for the National Party today, and it was very interesting to watch the little joy club that assembled around him as he got up to make his contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558e9a77d7244f049136ca7fd5994ef9\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s doing the numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e89696686045a3b9d346f6d6ceeaed\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: He is doing the numbers. I tell those who did not bother to stay that there were quite a few members down here in the House. Quite a few National members were here supporting Mr English and clapping enthusiastically. So I tell those National Party members\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a8a2adb9814ffc8cd470efe92c60c7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Don will be gone by Sunday lunchtime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae9403c896c34cb98790d440a9fc7659\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Don Brash will be gone by Sunday lunchtime, let alone by any other lunchtime after the next general election. I tell those members of the National Party who did not come down to the House that the numbers are gathering. So, although we know that the National Party is riven with factionalism, we can see that one faction is gaining momentum. I even saw one National member go over and, very humbly, fill the member\u2019s glass with water. My grandmother would have said: \u201CDon\u2019t be a crawler.\u201D\u2014but never mind. I have a friendly warning for National Party: I would keep my eyes and ears open, because the network is building. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EI want to comment briefly on Lindsay Tisch\u2019s statement, which was almost pyromanic in its content, in relation to rural fire engines. I have to disabuse Mr Tisch of any idea he has that rural fire stations will be downgraded. Talk about ambulance-chasing! He is not ambulance-chasing, but he is like habitual pyromaniacs who follow fire engines around the country and just get in the way. I urge Mr Tisch not to get in the way. This matter is about reviewing the equipment that rural fire stations require. I have a number of rural fire stations in my electorate, and we are making sure that they have the best equipment possible. So the member should stop ambulance-chasing and shroud-waving, because that is all it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EI assume that Mr Brash is listening to the wireless and is very aware that the debate this afternoon is about his performance in the House, or lack of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b3b7efeb57d427c996e6b451ec2091a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s hiding behind the bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d08d81cb5c34be7aed020b280c144bc\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure he is hiding behind the bench. He is a mere shadow of his former self. He is not exhibiting the characteristics of a leader. A leader is \u201Cup there at \u2018em\u201D, is in the front firing on all cylinders, and has the caucus behind him or her. Well, I tell Mr Brash that he should not have the caucus behind him too much or, if he does, to put on a flak jacket, because the need for it is growing. Mr Brash\u2019s performance since the House resumed this year has been absolutely abysmal. He has asked only one primary question, and that is not the sign of a leader who is on the way, who is strong and masterful, and who is exhibiting the characteristics of leadership. It shows us what a paucity of support there is for the National Party out there in the wider electorate, in that the party had to go as far as Switzerland to get somebody to speak positively about Mr Brash in his former employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227471145a6f7644e29345ce1dd63d3b25\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s probably staying in John Key\u2019s holiday home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f708e45b9d6d4a00889fa84fdfc53e21\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, she is probably staying in John Key\u2019s holiday home\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253c1a926453a4e3b905ed775451cad65\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de173f0f83d145bb8c15588b5798ffc2\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: In the Alps. Fancy having to go all the way to Switzerland to get somebody to speak publicly in favour of, or supportively about, Don Brash! That speaks volumes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EI have to tell other speakers today about the statistics with regard to our police personnel numbers. Those numbers are the highest they have been in living memory. More than 1,000 additional staff have been allocated since this Government came to power in 1999, and an extra $200 million has been allocated to the police budget. That is absolutely unprecedented, and it is why the crime rate is at the lowest it has been in the last 21 years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2d976674f964aa59ff1d40204ee5141\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d08983825d401ca39db52cf8df5776\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: For 21 years. And the road toll is the lowest since the 1960s. Significant attitudinal and behavioural changes are taking place in this country, and things that were previously socially acceptable are now no longer so. Drink-driving and driving at excessive and dangerous speeds on the roads are now no longer socially acceptable. People want the police on our roads in order to keep us safe. Our police force is multi-talented and multi-functional, and that is why the crime rate is so low. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e13b5d4d0a64df0a682c805f1e0ad99\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227697a599afaf4c0d908b439b499c7e2c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d40dfa25de4d4244bd044b0f93ece52c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d40dfa25de4d4244bd044b0f93ece52c\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Customs and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. Today the Labour-led Government is securing investment in the land transport infrastructure for New Zealanders, in order to keep the economy moving. Over the last few days there have been headlines, following the December household labour force survey, showing how the unemployment rate is at a record low of 3.6 percent. That is the lowest in the OECD. Living standards have improved, and business is expanding. To keep that momentum going, which is what we all want, it is imperative that extra money goes into building better transport systems over the next 10 years. High productivity and the avoidance of delays are the key to keeping New Zealand moving in the 21st century, and money for that is needed now. Money will be collected in two ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe bill contains two amendments to the Customs and Excise Act. It brings an amendment to increase the amount of duty paid on petrol by 5c per litre, excluding GST. It also provides for excise and excise-equivalent duty allocated to the National Land Transport Fund to be indexed to inflation. That remains unchanged. Indexation will be annual and will come into effect on 1 April 2006. At expected average rates of inflation, each annual increase will be approximately 0.5c per litre of petrol. That is necessary, because the cost of land transport initiatives and the actual cost of improving our infrastructure keep going up. The Government will determine when it is appropriate to start the increase in duty, taking into account the international price of oil. The Government is not raising the duty without careful consideration of the effect the extra cost will have on households and businesses, but it has weighed up the advantages to New Zealand of doing the urgent work, and it is confident that this is the best way to get our transport system working quickly. The duty will begin sooner rather than later, at a time the Government decides, and the passing of this bill allows for that duty to begin on 1 April, should the Government decide that that date is suitable. I point out that any delay is not desirable, and that contractors and workers are ready to start work and are standing by now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWhat will the money\u2014that 5c per litre of petrol increase being introduced through this bill\u2014be spent on? The total amount raised by this bill will go towards regional transport funding. This was first signalled last December as a means of addressing urgent infrastructure constraints, as a key element of the Government\u2019s growth and innovation framework. This unprecedented investment package in New Zealand\u2019s transport infrastructure is central to maintaining a healthy economy. For the first time in years it provides the certainty that contractors and the wider business community need to make investment decisions. Over the next 10 years every cent of this extra money will be spent across the regions on a per population basis. That is good for local communities, as it means the money will be there for the local projects that Transfund and Transit have planned in their areas for the next 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAll regions of New Zealand will gain extra transport project work from this funding: Hawke\u2019s Bay will gain an extra $70 million; the Canterbury region will receive $252 million; Wellington will receive 219 million; further north, Northland will receive $73 million; and Auckland will receive $716 million and another $9 million from the consolidated account. I reinforce the Minister of Transport\u2019s view that effective land transport that meets the needs of industry helps attract investment into areas with potential growth. This extra money adds to the Government\u2019s $227 million from the \u201CMoving Forward\u201D package of 2002. The increase in petrol excise and road-user charges will generate approximately $207 million annually, excluding GST. This Government is committing a massive $18 billion to land transport over the next 10 years to rebuild the country\u2019s neglected infrastructure. I restate to this House and to members of the public that all the additional funds from this tax will be dedicated to land transport and allocated under the National Land Transport Programme. Its provision, it is promised, will improve land transport, roads, and local networks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI say to those on the Opposition benches who are considering voting against getting New Zealand moving that they are risking the New Zealand economy and frustrating New Zealanders. National says that the money should come from slashing other areas of Government spending where money raised from fuel duty is currently spent. Two of the biggest areas funded by the Crown are health and education. Those members should try telling the public: \u201COh, sorry! There\u2019s going to be less money for nurses, less money for doctors, and less money for treatments.\u201D Is that what the public wants? Try telling people: \u201CThere will be no more money for computers in schools and there will be a cut-back in public services and tertiary education.\u201D That is the prescription of the National Party. Or does the National Party want to plunder the balance sheets of State-owned enterprises and the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, or the committed capital expenditure programmes for hospitals and prisons, which are a major constituent part of what is referred to as a surplus? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWhat New Zealander would vote for those cut-backs? New Zealanders do not want a Government that would vote to strangle public services. By failing to support this transport funding package, National is saying loudly and clearly that it will not invest in making our roads safer. It will do nothing to reduce congestion or help business to undertake its work by decongesting our roads. Ordinary Kiwis trying to get their kids to school on time in a car need decent roads to get through the traffic flows. The National Party is saying that it will do nothing to help those ordinary families in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E This Government, by contrast, says \u201CYes\u201D to safer, better roads and better infrastructure. However, good transport systems cost money, and this bill ensures that there is money now and in the future to make improvements to land transport. Companies complain that domestic freight is stuck in traffic, as the roads are clogged. People running businesses are sitting in traffic. This is bad for productivity, and this Government is determined to turn that round and keep New Zealand competitive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAs I conclude, I would like to quote the National Party leader, who said: \u201CThere is no doubt that our roads are under huge pressure.\u201D He also said: \u201CThe real solution to Auckland\u2019s traffic congestion lies in building more roads, and doing so without delay.\u201D The failure of National and New Zealand First to support this bill is another flip-flop: flip\u2014something needs to be done; flop\u2014failing to commit to what needs to be done. No one wants to be sitting in traffic. It makes sense, rather than burning petrol in thin air and getting nowhere, to put some extra money into fuel, thus getting traffic flow going and safer, better roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Customs and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill is designed to provide a more secure funding base for improvements in land transport. It is only with a dedicated revenue stream indexed to inflation that we can be confident that all our land transport will receive the ongoing improvements it needs. This Labour-led Government is bold enough to make the tough decisions that will get New Zealand moving. Responsible and progressive members will vote in favour of this bill. I recommend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf33e67ad3fc4d1e81453b67ec6a277b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf33e67ad3fc4d1e81453b67ec6a277b\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E The great tragedy about the speech from the Hon Rick Barker we just heard is that he actually believes it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022325720b41fcf41b88a504e0e5682e9c7\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224973a5fde10d4821b532c996938698eb\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but I say to Mr Brown that the Minister actually believes it. That is the tragedy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI have two pieces of very pertinent advice for the Minister: firstly, he should get a new speech writer and, secondly, before he comes down to the House to give a speech he should read it first. Then he will be able to work out the bits he should delete so that he does not make a fool of himself in the House, as he just did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ENational believes in fixing New Zealand\u2019s roads. In fact, National members have been out front talking about this issue, and about its impact on the infrastructure and the growth of our economy, for months and months. So I will put a few facts on the table correctly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe first of them is that that was a speech by a Minister whose Government brought to the House the Land Transport Management Bill. What was that legislation? Oh, that is right: it was a coalition agreement between the Green Party and the Government. It was all about cycleways, walkways, and ways to make sure that the private sector cannot be involved in building one single road in New Zealand. Lo and behold, it has been an Act for a number of years now and we have not seen a private-sector road built\u2014and nor will we. That is how much the Government really cares. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThere should not be any confusion on this issue, at all. National believes in building roads; we believe in building lots of roads. I do not think one could find a New Zealander, who has met me or who knows me, who would criticise me for saying that I do not believe in building roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d22fe2d081e49baa39bb934288b5ca9\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232cfad1a050f42c696fe4809a795fa59\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: They will not accuse me of saying that I do not believe in building roads, I say to Mr Hughes. We believe in building roads, and in building them effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBut what we do not believe in is the Customs and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill we are debating in the House today. We do not believe in it for some very, very sound reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to run through what the bill, for a large part, will do. The first thing it will do is add a 5.6c a litre petrol tax to the current motor spirits excise that is levied on people as they fill up their cars at the service station. The amount is not 5c; it is 5.6c, because it is 5c plus GST\u2014a tax on top of yet another tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis is happening at a time when the Government is running the biggest surplus in New Zealand\u2019s history. According to Michael Cullen, the Government is out of cash and unable to do anything. On the other hand, it is running the largest surplus in New Zealand\u2019s history. Dr Cullen has been very quick in the House to berate journalists up and down the country about the fact that they do not understand accrual accounting\u2014that they cannot understand that a $7.4 billion surplus is not a cash surplus. I actually agree with Dr Cullen. It is not a cash surplus, and the Crown will have a borrowing requirement going forward at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBut what I also know about accrual accounting is that if the Government wants to go out and spend $200 million on roads\u2014the equivalent of what will happen through this petrol tax, if it ever comes in\u2014it could do that by borrowing the money and making an investment in our economy. That would cost approximately $12 million a year, as a hit on the operating balance and the financing costs of those borrowings. Or it could take the $500 million that it puts into the Reserve Bank\u2014in my view, another capital item that it does not need for an intervention programme that will never take place\u2014and put that money into New Zealand\u2019s roads. Or it could look at a number of other capital items it is making and put those into our roads. That is the first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe second point is that, lo and behold, last year the Minister told the House that he would not introduce the petrol tax right at that moment, although this bill allowed him to do that, because he was concerned about the price of oil. When I asked him what the price was in New Zealand dollars that he as the Minister was targeting\u2014because we have to consider the actual, underlying oil price and the exchange rate\u2014he could not give me an answer. He did not have an answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWell, of course he has an answer. It is not an economic answer but an election-date answer, because he knows, as I know and as the other 4 million New Zealanders know, that when a party goes to the polls having increased a petrol tax while running the biggest surplus in New Zealand\u2019s history, that party is not very popular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022357aaf1f68354b10bb46c3a14fed3f62\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all cash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5c9dc1ceb76467f89eaee28260b20bc\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Hughes that, no, it is not all cash, and I wish he would wake up from that sleepy little hollow that he is obviously occupying and listen to my speech. The Minister could well and truly finance roading out of capital requirements, and it would cost $12 million a year. A $200 million petrol tax would not be needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204913088a96a4b9c9d399a0b54683912\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: To build all the roads the member wants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297e6787cdf6a46ef85e8d3040ff9795d\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely\u2014it would build all that the Government will fund. I suggest that Mr Hughes should wake up from that sleepy little hollow and pull out an economics book\u2014or go and ask the Minister of Finance, when he next sits behind the Minister, to explain accrual accounting to him. The Minister would do that in a breeze; he understands it very well, so that would work well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe do not know when the petrol tax will be introduced. The only sort of fly in the ointment came in a story last week in the Dominion Post. It stated that contractors were very worried because they had geared up on the back of the new roads to be built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBut, of course, when the increase in the petrol tax does not come because the oil price is too high, those roads will not be built. How do we know that? How do we know that the roads will not be built? We know that because at the Finance and Expenditure Committee the very diligent National spokesperson on finance\u2014my good self\u2014asked the Minister whether the roads would be built if the tax were not introduced, and he said \u201CNo.\u201D That is right. It might come as a shock to Labour members, but he said \u201CNo.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4487d436fcc4001acf4bbe7d648c47a\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: But we are putting the tax on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb2560e194c434fa99bcf5456f2e46f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Labour will impose the tax\u2014after the election, if it wins. I know that that is a very big \u201Cif\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, legislation has been introduced to the House that gives any future Minister of Finance carte blanche to impose that tax any time he or she wants. And we do not actually know what rate will be targeted. Michael Cullen does not know, because a rate is not something that can be measured within 31 days of a calendar event. That is not the way one looks at oil prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo I think the Minister of Finance owes it to the country to be honest with us. He should tell us the truth; we are all grown-ups. He should come and tell us that he does not want to impose the tax because it is really unpopular, because he is running a whopping huge surplus, and because he knows that if he does impose it he might not get re-elected. He should say that he really cares about being elected, so that he is not going to impose it until after the election\u2014if his party wins. That would be the honest answer. At least we could all live with it, and at least we would know we were being treated like grown-ups. I, for one, would thank the Minister of Finance for his honesty in coming to me and telling me exactly the way it is. But instead, we have to weasel our way through the information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to touch on is the issue of indexation. This is a very interesting Government. Not only does it not quite understand accrual accounting but, equally, it thinks it is absolutely fine to index its revenue stream. The Government has no problem at all with applying indexation to the excise on motor spirits, tobacco, and cigarettes, and no problem at all in saying that the cost of inflation is having an impact, therefore it needs to inflation-proof its income stream. But when it comes to the income of New Zealanders, when it comes to the workers out there and their earnings being inflation-proofed, this Government does not want a bar of it. We have had 5 years of the biggest surpluses and of inflation gnawing away at people\u2019s after-tax earnings, but there is not one skerrick of movement towards inflation-proofing incomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EPeter Costello did that for the Australian people but Michael Cullen did not do it, and when his own support partner, the United Future party, came to the House with a Supplementary Order Paper on a tax bill and said it wanted to suggest the indexation of income bands, the Minister of Finance vetoed the suggestion. So it is OK, according to the Minister of Finance, to veto inflation-proofing when it is somebody else\u2019s money, but when it is the Government\u2019s money coming in the Government has its hand out and is very happy to index it. That is the message from the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that, frankly, I do not think has its head at all around the issue of roading. I do not think it has a plan. It does not want to see the private sector involved. For all the numbers that Government members quote, like the $18 billion, the real truth is that real spending on new roading as a percentage of GDP has been falling over the last 20 or 30 years, not rising, and that the private sector has no involvement in New Zealand roading. This is a very, very unfortunate piece of legislation that National is very proud to oppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022915bcffeb3b24ad6bf1a0c269e2f149b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022915bcffeb3b24ad6bf1a0c269e2f149b\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I am not sure what is the most interesting part about following John Key in a debate. I am not sure whether the part when he conceded that the National Party cannot win the next election and that Labour will be returned to office, and he is concerned about our transport programme following that, was the most revealing part because we have not yet worked out what faction he is in. I am not sure whether the most revealing part was the kind of typical National Party voodoo economics that we see right throughout our electorates at the present time. The National Party keeps saying that this country is overtaxed and we need to slash tax rates to try to get more people to move to New Zealand while, at the same time, with every piece of Government expenditure they see, they want to spend more. Whatever it is, the National Party\u2019s answer is: \u201CLet\u2019s spend more on it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI have not seen a single thing that National members do not want to spend more on. They want to spend more on education and on health. Lindsay Tisch made a very animated speech about fire trucks. They want more money for that. John Key says they want more money spent on roads. The National Party has been whingeing up-hill and down-dale about roads and about the need to improve transport. Guess what? The Labour-led Government agrees. I want to see more roads built to get to my electorate on the Kapiti Coast. I am very, very keen to see that happen because it is necessary for the economic development of our region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EBut I will finish the rest of the argument, which is: how are we going to pay for it? The Government has brought to Parliament a bill that sets out very clearly and carefully how we want to fund the extra money for roading, through the National Land Transport Fund. The parties whose members stand up in the House and say: \u201CWoe is me, we need more roads.\u201D, also walk through the Noes lobby and say they do not want to pay for them. They cannot have it both ways. The Government has been very upfront with the people of this country, and people appreciate that kind of honesty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003ELet me ask the Opposition spokesperson on finance a question. If, by some dreadful chance, National became the Government at the next election, would it repeal this petrol tax? He does not have so much to say now. Would the National Party in office repeal this petrol tax? They do not want to say a thing\u2014there is silence. So they will oppose it today. They will walk out of this Parliament and demand more roads, but they do not want to pay for them, and they will not say what they would do if they had the chance to repeal this legislation. That says a lot about the rudderless National Party of the present. I am voting for the bill because it will bring more roads to our region, and I think that will be good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8eef4423b9247d7be4cbb6c32aacb7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8eef4423b9247d7be4cbb6c32aacb7e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very sad day for New Zealanders. The Government is about to pass legislation that will add 5.6c per litre to our fuel bills. I think today is the day that the Kyoto Protocol will be ratified, and I think we can expect a carbon tax to go on our coal-fired power stations, which represents\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bca0f429a46f4c94be6f5eb8dac6452f\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Hooray!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c554c125e7d4a46bc414a1da4312374\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014listen to the Greens\u20146 or 7 percent of the power generated in this country, and, probably, from shortly thereafter, if not today, they will be paying a carbon tax. Mr Howard is coming here very shortly from Australia, where, I think, 76 percent of electricity is generated from coal. He is not going to put on a carbon tax because, basically, the Australian Government thinks of its people, first and foremost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI heard Jeanette Fitzsimons say on the radio the other day that this Government has lost its heart. It has\u2014it has lost its heart. It has lost its concern for the average working person, and indeed the Greens have coupled themselves alongside it. It is an absolute disgrace to put 5.6c on a litre of petrol. It is unnecessary, and I think everybody knows that. I heard the Minister say he wants to do this to keep the economy moving. I will come back to that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff9f75a103314542b0424e697971fbb2\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: A clanger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba726ac83d954ee49b0e76e5d3a50a95\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is a clanger, an absolute clanger, and I will come back to it. But he made another statement. He said that this is the best way to address the issue. I ask any Government member, and United Future, what alternative they have examined. When the Government says it thinks this is the best way, that implies it had some other option. But it has not considered anything, at all. The Government is simply saying that it wants more money so it will tax the poor old motorist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241083de0cc02416181c4a837fd13ee83\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the alternative, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022682560136a5c4f8f8455120d2c11e302\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I will answer that. I ask the member to sit there because he might learn something. I will tell the member another thing he should learn, and it is that I come from a party that means what it says. We do not go along with the philosophy\u2014and this is a debating point, so the member need not raise a point of order\u2014whereby we say we want changes to tax rates and so on, but when the Government says it wants confidence and supply, we roll over. We are not into that league, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere are many ways of advancing New Zealand, and one of the most important ways is to build more roads promptly. The report that the Government should at least read\u2014and Mr Copeland should take note of this\u2014is the Allen report. It identifies four areas of concern in this country. There are only four areas\u2014and I have the report here. Those areas are called the Passing Lanes package, the Auckland Western Ring Route package, the Tauranga Strategic Roading Network package, and the Wellington Regional Land Transport package. The report identifies the benefits, and I will read them for the benefit of the Government, because I know they are too tired to read this booklet on their own: \u201CThe total benefits comprise a net increase in GDP of around $1 billion, a benefit of $65.9 million attributable to the value of lives saved and permanent disability, and the benefit of $511 million from travel time savings related to non-work activities.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt goes on to summarise those benefits: \u201CThis implies that for every dollar invested in the proposed packages, New Zealand will receive benefits worth approximately $4.75, and these are economic benefits only. For every dollar invested New Zealand will be better off by $4.75.\u201D That varies from package to package, but it is the overall average. Further, it states: \u201CRegardless of whether the packages are undertaken individually or in aggregate, the expected gains tower over the initial investment costs required to finance the proposed infrastructure.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis document alone states that we should be borrowing to advance our roading if we cannot afford to do it from the current revenue stream. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ELet us examine the current revenue stream, in the National Land Transport Programme for this year. Government members might like to look this up to see that I am not talking fiction. The estimate over the next 10-year period, including this tax and the indexation, is $18.7 billion. If we take out this tax, and take out the indexation, we are at around $16 billion. That is a lot of money in anybody\u2019s language. If we look at what the Government takes from the petrol motorist over the same 10-year period, it is a further $7 billion. So over a 10-year period we are talking about the Government collecting from the motorist, through road-user charges, registration, petrol tax, and everything else, something like $23 billion. I suggest to members that if they drive down any street in this country that is occupied they will see a number of buildings, and most of those buildings are mortgaged, or have been mortgaged. They will see cars or trucks, and most of those cars and most of those trucks are either leased or paid for on hire purchase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn other words, the average New Zealander uses the opportunity to borrow against future income for his or her house, building, business, farm, or whatever\u2014and for his or her vehicle. Yet for the roads we stick to this antiquated \u201Cpay as you go\u201D philosophy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de5d1bb21f304e1f8ae5ef51eb3d7f08\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I hate to break it to you, but the Government has a mortgage, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d912abc7ea642c3a79a4aee9d54968d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Prebble will get his time in due course. Basically, roading in this country is on a \u201Cpay as you go\u201D system, and it is old hat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eb0df01d934498ca756c29410d68c2f\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022854155c1fb3b437c82f812a636951034\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Prebble obviously has not read the literature available to him. I suggest that he does, because this Government spends what it gets, and collects next year for the motorists. Last year it underspent by something like $230 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ERoads have not kept pace with vehicle traffic and user demand. We know that, and we know that that is principally because past Governments have taken from the motorists and used the money here, there, and everywhere. That is absolutely wrong. National wants to correct the situation. I listened to John Key with considerable interest. National wants to correct the situation by allowing private enterprise into the system. We say that that is not necessary. We say that that is equally wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere are three things we in this country should be doing. Firstly, we should be identifying the specific roading we need for long-term use and getting it absolutely correct. Secondly, we should be building those roads on an as-required basis. In other words, if we want a bridge that will accommodate 100,000 vehicles a day in 10 years\u2019 time, we should build it in such a way as to achieve that without adding a great deal to the design and construction costs. Thirdly, we should be putting in place a continuous and sustainable funding stream. The only way to do that fairly, given what the motorist currently pays, is to use the money that is taken from the motorist at present through fuel taxes, road-user charges, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf that is not enough\u2014and I suggest that it will not be enough, because the system has been robbed blind for so many years, and we need to do so much\u2014we will need to get into borrowing mode. I believe that sufficient income will come in to justify that. The gains outlined in the Allen report support our getting on with the job and doing it now. We must move away from the \u201Cpay as you go\u201D regime, and towards a 21st century type of regime. There is not a person running a business of any size who would finance expansion in the way we finance the expansion of roading in this country. It is a sad day indeed when the Government is sticking to this antiquated thinking and is imposing on the motorist a further increase in fuel taxes\u2014and, worse still, indexing the whole darn lot to inflation. New Zealand First will be opposing this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00221b13d93f1fa840beba7cccfba038a033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b13d93f1fa840beba7cccfba038a033\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future): \u003C/span\u003EI seek leave to table the 1996 coalition agreement between New Zealand First and the National Party, in which both parties gave their word that they would form a coalition Government for the 3 years through to 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022539fe11157404185982e2a0b8a20f5a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022539fe11157404185982e2a0b8a20f5a3\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I thank my colleague Richard Prebble for allowing me to swap places on the speaking list so that I can get to another appointment. I appreciate it, especially as what I am about to say is probably rather different from what he is about to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Greens support this bill, because it will help us move to a transport system that uses less fuel in order to get us to where we are going. There are two very important reasons why we need to do that. One is the question of climate change. We have been celebrating the coming into force today of the Kyoto Protocol, but if we are going to stop the climate change that threatens our agriculture, our economies, our health, and our way of life it is absolutely vital that we start burning less fossil fuel\u2014and transport is one of the chief offenders. The other reason is that we are now getting quite close to the time when it will not be possible to meet the rising demand for oil simply by pumping more out of the oilfields. We are getting close to what is known as peak oil. When that happens, prices will rise quite alarmingly, and availability will steadily reduce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThis bill helps to reduce energy use in transport in two ways. Firstly, it allows more money to be raised to invest in the infrastructure we urgently need in order to adapt to rising oil prices, and by that I mean the rail systems, the public transport systems, the travel-demand management systems, and the cycling facilities, which will be funded along with some roading improvements. Secondly, the petrol levy rise signals the long-term oil price rise in time for people to start adapting to it in their own lives. As petrol starts to cost more, people will start to see the reason for making sure that the next car they buy can do a minimum of 50 miles to the gallon, the reason for making sure that the next time they move house they try to live closer to their work, and the reason for trying to make sure that they can do short trips on a bicycle or on foot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EMost people still have not caught on to the fact that the oil price rises we have seen over the last year are not temporary and are not the result of the war in Iraq. Although a number of short-term fluctuations are caused by those supply features, the long-term trend is that oil prices are going steadily up. New Zealand needs to prepare for that. We need to prepare for it with more efficient vehicles. If we had vehicle standards, we could get twice as much out of every litre of fuel as we do now. We need to prepare for it with more public transport, more rail, and by becoming less dependent on long-distance overseas trade for low-value commodities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI am not convinced that the diesel increase that is foreshadowed in the bill, but will happen through Order in Council, should be only for vehicles under 5 tonnes. I am not convinced that the heavy vehicles are actually paying their full way in terms of paying for roads, given the very much greater damage they do because of their axle weight. We cannot afford to feather-bed the trucking industry if we want a fair, level playing field for rail, which is more energy efficient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI am concerned that the decision of the Minister and the select committee to defer the coming into effect of this increase means that it may never happen. We are not being given any particular oil price at which the Minister feels he will be able to trigger the coming into force of this rise. The futures market tells us that the price of oil will not drop below $40 again. Treasury places a lot of faith in the futures market when it does its oil price forecasting. We are still, however, operating under a Government Budget that has an assumption that by now oil prices would be back down to $19 a barrel and will stay there indefinitely. Prices will, of course, go much higher than $40 a barrel, and if the high New Zealand dollar starts to drop, we will feel that increase as a double whammy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI note that the new money raised in this way must still be allocated under the National Land Transport Programme and must be spent in accordance with the Land Transport Management Act. I think that this has escaped the notice of a number of regional land transport committees and local councils, many of whom have not yet got to grips with the new Act. It is not just a roading binge that will be accelerated by this extra 5c a litre, but a balanced range of transport options\u2014road, rail, public transport, cycling, walking, and travel-demand management. If those bodies put forward proposals only for roads, they may find that the funding does not actually reach their bank accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI particularly note that the proposals of the Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Land Transport Committee\u2014the Minister lives in that region, and he might like to look into this\u2014for spending the new funding are 100 percent for new roads for trucks, particularly for getting freight to the port. It makes no rail, public transport, or demand management proposals, and it makes no proposals to consult with the community. I hope the Minister will meet with his regional council staff and tell them to read the Act, or they might get a nasty surprise and find that the funding will not follow their grand plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EFinally, I return to the question of climate change, as this is the day on which we are celebrating the Kyoto Protocol. I particularly commend the four Greenpeace activists who are on top of the Marsden B power station at the moment with a big banner that states: \u201CSave the climate\u2014stop coal\u201D. This is a proposal that will massively increase our greenhouse emissions. The Marsden B power station is a very old, inefficient, dirty station that will convert coal very, very inefficiently into electricity. It will shower the people of Whangarei with sulphur dioxide, dioxins, and fine particulates that cause cancer, and it will dump mercury and other heavy toxic metals into the harbour. It will import millions of tonnes of coal from Indonesia and stockpile it near the wharf in a leaky stockpile. The local residents are appalled at this proposal, and I commend the young people who have got themselves on top of the building. The company refuses to go down and meet them, so it looks as if they might be there for quite a while. I say, good on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00227e467587f87c421fbb35941f031284fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e467587f87c421fbb35941f031284fe\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Customs and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill. I follow the Green MP Jeanette Fitzsimons and I am appalled that she should use her time to applaud a group of people who are trespassers and who are breaking the law. The Green Party\u2019s idea, which it promoted again today, is that it is perfectly OK for the Green Party to break the law but for no one else to do so. Those people on Marsden B power station are not activists, they are criminals. I hope that when they come down from the private property on which they are trespassing they are arrested and that the courts finally decide to get tough on people who claim that their principles enable them to break the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI will make another comment for the Green member about the Kyoto Protocol. One of the reasons that the ACT party has always opposed the Kyoto Protocol is, firstly, it will not solve the greenhouse problem. If we were to look 50 years into the future it will have made almost no difference. Secondly, it is fundamentally unfair to New Zealand because of the appalling way that successive Governments negotiated our position. The member should understand that the targets for each country are different. I will give one simple example. A friend of mine who owns a reasonable-sized farm did a purge on possums and was staggered to discover that he took off 8,000 possums. He had a look into this and found that 20,000 tonnes of green matter is eaten by possums every day. He asked why the Government did not just get rid of possums and thereby meet our greenhouse target easily. Getting rid of possums would meet the target, but the Government will not do it because the Green Party said that getting rid of possums should not count, and it will not. So even if we do get rid of possums it will not count. Of course, all the forests in Russia count, but New Zealand\u2019s forests do not. That is because of the way that the Green Party, the Labour Party, and the National Party negotiated the Kyoto Protocol, which is very unfair on New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhat is proposed under this excise tax is to increase fuel tax by 5c per litre. The ACT party is opposed to this measure. Are we opposed to more roads? No, we are not. In fact, if members were to go back and look at the parliamentary record, they would see that the first party in Parliament that stood up and consistently argued that we have under-invested in roads and that we need more of them, especially in Auckland, was the ACT party. The parliamentary record shows that. Is there a shortage of money to build roads in New Zealand? Of course there is not. There is no possible argument for any Government to say that we should increase taxes when it is running a record surplus. Currently there is a tax of 18c per litre, plus GST, on fuel. Half of that money goes into the Government\u2019s own accounts, so there is no justification for an increase in taxation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI will raise for the House an even more serious issue, and it is a constitutional one. By indexing fuel taxes to inflation, the executive is removing the necessity for the executive to come to Parliament and ask for permission for tax rises. Those who have studied history will know that the reason we have parliamentary control over the Crown, and the little control Parliament has over the excesses of the executive, is that every Government, no matter what colour its stripes, has to come to this House and justify an increase in taxation. But this bill means that the Government does not have to come back to Parliament again to increase fuel taxes. The Government might say that there is a precedent for that move because alcohol and cigarette taxes are now inflation-adjusted. Indeed, I was part of the Government that did that. I think it is wrong. The more I think about it, the more strongly I think that it is wrong and that no real Parliament should ever agree to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe Westminster system means that whatever party is in Government, it must ask for approval from the House to increase taxes. But this tax is even worse, because with this bill the Government has said that it wants the ability to increase tax from 1 April, but it then wants the ability to decide whether it will. We all know how the Government will decide; it will have a look at the public opinion polls to see how it is rating. If it thinks that it is polling high enough to introduce an unpopular fuel tax, it will introduce the tax on 1 April. If it thinks that the polls are not that good, it will put it off until after the election. Then we will have the constitutional monstrosity of a tax going up under the new Parliament that is elected at the next election. That breaks the rule that states that one Parliament should not pass laws that bind the next Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWe all know that that is the constitutional position. I find it appalling that our officials, such as Crown Law and the like who are supposed to advise us on these matters, did not put in a document to oppose this bill and to point out that it is a constitutional outrage to have a measure whereby this will be the last time, possibly, that we will ever debate fuel tax increases. Because, after this, the Government will say that the tax should go up according to a change in the consumer price index. Where is the evidence that the consumer price index is the right principle to use to increase a tax that the Government says is for roading? It is not very difficult for members to realise that it is quite possible for the consumer price index to have increased but for the cost of roading to have gone down. That has been the situation a number of times in my parliamentary career. The Government has only put forward this fixed formula to avoid parliamentary scrutiny, to avoid having to debate its roading programme, and to avoid having to discuss transport. They are the only reasons that this bill has been put together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI point out to the House that when the Government inflation-proofs its revenue, and it is now doing it on petrol, alcohol, and cigarettes, it means that the Government does not care about inflation. In fact, the more inflation we have, the more money it gets. But the Government will not inflation-proof income tax. We all know that because income tax has stayed the same despite wage rises, the average New Zealand household, after tax, is no better off than it was 5 years ago. The economy may have grown, but, after tax\u2014because income tax rates have not been inflation-proofed and because things like cigarettes, alcohol, and now fuel are going up\u2014the average household is no better off. That is yet another reason why the ACT party says that this is a bill that no Parliament worth its name should ever allow. I am appalled to see that this bill is able to be got through because of the Green Party. It is so ideologically blind in its views about energy that it is not prepared also to realise that as parliamentarians we should never agree to a bill of this sort. It just gives the Government revenue, without any accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebe466c30e1e433583c660051df66934\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebe466c30e1e433583c660051df66934\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to cover a few points that have been raised in the House on the Customs and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill, particularly during the Committee stage, just to confirm United Future\u2019s final position on the bill itself. First of all, we will be voting for this bill. We do so because, like the great majority of New Zealanders, we are appalled and alarmed that for a long time now successive Governments have consistently underspent on New Zealand\u2019s roads, with the resultant congestion that we have on a daily basis. This is particularly so in Auckland, where this congestion is simply unacceptable, and has been for many, many years, but also in places like Tauranga, Wellington, and parts of Christchurch, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EOf course, the funds raised through this excise duty of 5c a litre on petrol will go towards providing those roads, and we simply need to get on with it. We can debate here in the House for some time whether it is the right strategy, but at the end of the day the people of this country are saying: \u201CLook, just get on and do it, please, because we are sick and tired of spending hours each day trying to get from A to B.\u201D My colleague Paul Adams, who lives on the North Shore, would say a big \u201CAmen!\u201D to all of that, I am sure. He tells me that it is very, very frustrating trying to get to the airport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHowever, we did make an important qualification in our minority report\u2014one that was subsequently misquoted by ACT party leader, Rodney Hide. He either did not have the energy to read down to the third paragraph, or decided he would quote it selectively in order to score some political points in the process and, in fact, to mislead people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHowever, United Future said in its minority report that the increase should be accompanied by a reduction in income taxes in New Zealand, in this year\u2019s Budget. It is very, very clear to me, even based on his evidence before the Finance and Expenditure Committee this morning, that the Minister of Finance, Dr Michael Cullen, has really just got into the habit\u2014no matter what happens to our accounts, essentially, no matter how much more money comes in over and above his original estimates\u2014whereby his knee-jerk reaction is either to bank the money or to spend it. That is all that seems to come into his mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to tell the House today that over the 4 years to 2004, the Government collected $4.5 billion more than its Budget estimates. The Budget Policy Statement issued in December reworked the forecast position out to 2008, in which time it will spend\u2014listen to this\u2014$5.7 billion more than was projected in the Budget in May, just 6 months before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ENow that is a total of $10.1 billion more revenue than the Government\u2019s own Budget estimates, the estimates on which it originally based its expenditure\u2014another $10.1 billion\u2014and it simply is not credible for the Minister of Finance to say that tax cuts are not affordable. Indeed, he admitted today that the fact that he will be reducing gross debt to 20 percent in 2008, rather than his original target of 2015\u20147 years earlier\u2014basically will be putting the Crown balance sheet in better shape at the expense of the balance sheet of New Zealand households. In my view, that is completely wrong. I do hope that if he does not address these things in the Budget, New Zealanders will note those remarks and vote accordingly in the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn United Future\u2019s view, income tax cuts are definitely affordable. There is no doubt whatsoever about that. Dr Michael Cullen says they are not affordable. He says that because he seems to assume there is something divinely ordained about the decisions he makes on expenditure. In other words, what he has decided to spend has to be spent and there is no alternative. Plainly, that is completely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ELet me just run through a few things that could be cut in terms of expenditure. First of all, there is enormous bureaucratic excess in the present Government. The number of civil servants being employed in this country has gone up alarmingly in the last 3 years, and it is simply unnecessary. We should get rid of that trend. Secondly, United Future would introduce public-private partnerships for health, corrections, and roading\u2014yes, even roading. It is in the legislation, but the Government is not doing it. Just through doing those things, we could save literally billions of dollars. We would bring to an end the corporate welfare machine, on which the Government spends several hundreds of millions of dollars per year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe would review the private training establishment funding arrangements. In the House in the last few days, the ACT party has been bringing to the attention of New Zealanders the scandal of $239 million being spent on one single private tertiary institution, which now has 34,000 students. I was interested to find out that Oxford University has 13,000 students, just to put the figure in some perspective. I really have no idea\u2014and no one does in this country\u2014whether that is money that has been properly spent. I suspect that it is obviously not\u2014that it is money wasted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe could eliminate huge waste form the health budget. A paper at the Finance and Expenditure Committee this morning from the Public Health Association reinforced this. There is a lot more that we could do in terms of preventive medical strategies through well-thought-out, well-researched initiatives, which the Government is simply not taking. So it simply does not wash with United Future that there is no room for tax cuts. There obviously is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIt seems increasingly lame to the people of New Zealand for the Minister of Finance just to repeat the same old mantra: if there is more money, we will spend more money. Today he indicated to us that there is no end in sight to that policy, even if he should remain the Minister of Finance after the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the attacks on United Future that have been mounted by New Zealand First and the National Party, and, I think the ACT party managed to get in there\u2014Ken Shirley did as well\u2014about why it is that United Future does not simply pull the plug on its supply and confidence agreement with the Government, with the demand that it has to drop the 5c a litre tax reduction. I want to go through this in some detail. I have said it ad nauseam, but it needs to be said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EFirst of all, United Future gave its word in 2002 that it would enter into a supply and confidence agreement until the next election. That is exactly what we intend to do; I say to Mr Brown that it may be OK, morally, for some parties in this House to welsh on deals, but it is not OK for us. We feel morally and contractually bound to fulfil exactly what we said we would do. That is the first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe second point is that it would be a futile gesture, because the Green Party is also voting for this 5c a litre increase\u2014OK? It seems to escape those parties, when it suits them, that the Government has alternatives to United Future. It can turn to the Greens, and if it does not want to turn to them, it can turn to New Zealand First, as it did on the foreshore and seabed legislation. I ask Mr Brown what the answer from New Zealand First members would be. I can tell the member exactly what it would be. They would say: \u201CHow soon do you want us there, guys?\u201D, because those members jumped into the foreshore and seabed legislation overnight. They were waiting for the proposal to be made, and they said yes before the words were out of Helen Clark\u2019s mouth. That is the reality of what happened on the foreshore and seabed legislation. It is simply not credible for you to keep coming along to the House and criticising us when we fulfil our word and you do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c26cef8441a5402b8a64ce87ee6f70f5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Please do not bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122ce59df9c44cc483fcd1f35abef4f8\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Speaker. I did not mean to bring you into the debate. I was, of course, referring to the New Zealand First Party, and I think the listeners would probably have picked up on that. I apologise for the slip of the tongue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ECan I also bring to the House the comment made by the OECD just before Christmas. It was quite an interesting comment. It said that New Zealanders had had 4 good economic years, and it has. They said that one of the reasons for that was the political stability in this country. Who has provided political stability for this country in the last 3 years? No, it was not the Labour Government; it was United Future, and both the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister have been gracious enough to say that. We are the ones who have provided stability, and we intend to go right on doing that through until this year\u2019s election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8ab5a6af6154e968f3935e583d3fced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8ab5a6af6154e968f3935e583d3fced\u0022\u003EJANET MACKEY (Labour\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I listened to the speech of the list member from Tauranga, Mr Peter Brown, with great interest. It was a speech that could only have been given by somebody who had nice big wide roads and a very good bridge. Because can I say that the people of the East Coast welcome this legislation. There is only one thing worse than sitting in a traffic jam in Auckland, and that is sitting in a queue at a road accident on the East Coast, or sitting behind six logging trucks on a one-lane road and watching schoolchildren getting off the local school bus and being spattered with gravel as the trucks pass them by. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EAs the only member of Parliament who has an unsealed State highway in her electorate, I say there is a very good reason why we do not make a song and dance about that. It is the road around Waikaremoana and we are very concerned that if they tar-seal it, lots of people from Auckland and Tauranga will then want to drive on it. So we are leaving it as it is for now. But can I say that the people of the East Coast welcome this increase in the price of petrol so that we can have roads that look as though they come out of the same century as the rest of New Zealand. The Automobile Association report will tell members that 10 of the worst roads in New Zealand are in my electorate. I look forward to this money being invested in decent roading for the hard-working people in Gisborne and the East Coast. I think that those members who have lots of roads and big bridges should stop whingeing about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00225d08efe8e50845d2b2be0280ba676545\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d08efe8e50845d2b2be0280ba676545\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to remind the Labour member who has just taken a call, Janet Mackey, that in the last financial year Transfund once again reported a surplus of unspent money, of $230 million. I suggest to that member that if, in all her tenure in this Parliament, she has failed to secure Transfund funding for Gisborne, it is too bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a83a842e63748f3bfb2d9e662a04ca4\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s this member\u2019s constituency going?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f775be7964e438abec4f2f46aed8eae\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: It is amazing that the junior Government whip always has a lot to yell while he is sitting on his backside, but does not take a call to explain matters to the public. He is just a doormat who says yes when Ministers wish him to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe National Party is totally opposed to this bill. The bill aims to do three things. Firstly, it will put up the price of petrol by 5.625c per litre, inclusive of GST. Secondly, the increase is to come at a time at the discretion of the Labour minority Government in an election year. Thirdly, starting from 1 January 2006 there is to be indexation of petrol price increases according to changes in the consumer price index, to avoid any future Government having to explain to Parliament why the petrol tax has to be increased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBefore I expand further on some of those three aims that we object to, I must say that I found some points that were raised by various members in this debate to be quite interesting. First, the Minister and Labour members, once again, reinforced in their speeches the Labour Party\u2019s continuing lack of any solution to problems other than its continuous motto of expanding taxation to solve them. It was almost comical to note that in the Finance and Expenditure Committee the Minister of Finance on the one hand tried to tell us on Friday that the financial statements would once again show a surplus, even a cash surplus, but on the other hand he claimed poverty and said that he would not be able to spend that surplus, because of his fiscal responsibility constraints. Yet at the same time he told the select committee that he was quite happy to spend up to $500 million to please the business community by announcing various tax incentives, such as the depreciation regime for short-term assets. Also, he announced the initiatives with regard to so-called housing ownership and the expansion of the Working for Families package, which will put more New Zealand families on welfare. So it seems to us that the minority Labour Government has a lot of money to spend, and that it can afford to spend it when it comes to buying votes in an election year. Yet when it comes to building roads and we are staring at a surplus of $230 million from Transfund, more tax increases are to be loaded on to motorists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note that the Green Party, the party that is always supportive of Labour, will support the bill. The only part it is not happy about is that the bill does not go far enough. The Greens ask what is to happen with regard to diesel users, and say they should be made to pay more in tax. The Greens always believe in punishing individuals, because they believe that people get into a car simply for the luxury of driving and not because they need to, even though we had one submission from a group that provides a volunteer service for people in hospitals, and that spoke on behalf of the Meals on Wheels volunteers, as well. The group complained that its members do not get paid for their good deed to the community, and that although they will be out of pocket they will have to face those increases. So in future the Greens are trying to force the people who provide Meals on Wheels to provide \u201CMeals on Bikes\u201D. The only problem is that we do not know how secure those \u201CMeals on Bikes\u201D will be. I say that the Green Party, instead of always believing in the worst of human nature and wanting to punish New Zealanders, needs to be sympathetic to people who have to use motor transport to do some of their work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EUnited Future\u2019s position is even more interesting. United Future did put in a minority report that gave people the impression that, indeed, it would be morally and contractually honest to its supporters by voting against this bill. United Future has always said that it is against high taxes and believes in rewarding hard-working New Zealanders. United Future\u2019s minority report states that it supports the petrol tax and everything, and that the only reason it put in a minority report is that it believes that that increase should be offset by a reduction in personal income tax. Of course, this bill itself has nothing to do with personal income tax. However, when the income tax bill to confirm high tax rates came before the House last year, although United Future says that it wants to bring down income tax, it also supported that bill. So I am not sure where that minority report leads to. United Future says that it is against high income tax, but when high-income tax legislation came before the House it also supported that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI come back to the issue of why Labour should continue to believe that every time there is a problem and every time projects have to be financed, the only solution it can think of is to introduce another tax. Interestingly, this morning the Minister of Finance shared some of his inner thoughts with the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. He said that the reason he has had to bring in the indexation of the petrol tax is that companies have invested in more environmentally friendly fuel\u2014fuel that is more efficient. The Labour Government is actually collecting less revenue, and, because of that, he said it has had to bring in indexation. This measure is more about increasing the Government\u2019s revenue than it is about really giving people the incentives to invest in measures that may produce a more environmentally friendly solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe all know that building roads benefits not just the current generation. After all, one likes to think that roading contractors do not aim for roads to last for just 5 or 10 years. Overseas countries, particularly Australia, should have provided this Labour Government with a lot of inspiration about the success of involving the private sector and also of extending a vision into the future. Because the investment in building more roads benefits not just the current generation but creates a long-term benefit, there is nothing wrong with borrowing in order to fund the building of roads. Also, there is nothing wrong with inviting the private sector to take an active partnership role in ensuring that the congestion in Auckland is solved. Just now the junior Labour whip yelled out the fact that this Government has been in place for 6 years. I cannot believe that any Aucklander in all those 6 years has seen road congestion be resolved even a little bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENational is totally opposed to the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002219f89b40e77347a6bb1aa22b898629ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219f89b40e77347a6bb1aa22b898629ee\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E That was Pansy Wong from the National Party. One does have to admire anyone from National who can speak for 10 minutes trying to explain National\u2019s position\u2014because, of course, it has so many positions\u2014and say nothing. The criticism of the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bbdf99addad44cd8befd1546dca4798\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: You did not listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2956dc05cc74b859325dc0270ae0c01\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I listened very carefully to the member, and Pansy should pay me the same courtesy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f1410a459fd4e459be22f19164725fa\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister should use the member\u2019s full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb4d1eafe744fe4b1e2fa42964cab13\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s critique, at best, seems to be that this Government, when it has something to say to people, has the gall to be upfront, look people in the face, and say: \u201CThere\u2019s something to do, and it needs to be resourced. We\u2019ve got to fund it, and here\u2019s how we\u2019re going to do it.\u201D That is the criticism\u2014as opposed to National\u2019s strategy, which is: \u201CWe\u2019re going to spend more on everything, but we\u2019re going to tax less, and we\u2019re not telling you where the money\u2019s coming from, and anyway, we\u2019d better be careful because the leader, Dr Brash, doesn\u2019t say much any more.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EDon Brash has not flip-flopped in the last week and a half because he has not said anything. He has not done anything. He has sat in the House like a vegetable. I have been here only 11 years, and you, Mr Assistant Speaker, have been here a little longer\u2014but I should not bring you into the debate, so I will not. But I have to tell my colleagues that in my 11\u00BC years in Parliament I cannot recall any Leader of the Opposition coming to the House, plonking himself in his chair, and saying nothing\u2014not a question, not a word, not even an interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3bc5b685ebf41c1bfb7d550e2dce6eb\u0022\u003EGovernment Member\u003C/span\u003E: Was he awake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a59daab3c9194586aab0f1c4423e4a27\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know whether he was awake. I presume he was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis bill is about fairness and security. It is about providing a more secure funding base for those things that we all know have to be done. I am pleased to support the progress of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022b023ba946fcf4fcb900a25903a1d16e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b023ba946fcf4fcb900a25903a1d16e7\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E As I heard that Labour member speak I had a new hope within me. I thought the Labour Party members were actually going to debate this bill. But as usual\u2014they do not take all their slots, anyway\u2014the members who got up to speak to this Customs and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill did not take even half of their allotted time. They know that they have not contributed to the debate on this bill in a satisfactory way at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228312f44f8afe4d279cb9614938688e08\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229600024bc8424314a162f7e21d4efc0c\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I have another member over here saying I am right. The hard-working New Zealanders who are driving home from work in places such as Auckland\u2014driving back from Auckland City up to the North Shore and Whangapar\u0101oa, where I am based\u2014will be listening to this. They will know that the Government members have not satisfactorily contributed to the debate on this bill. If they did not know that, I am reminding them now, but I am sure the public are very well aware of that as they are driving home at drive time, as I speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EIn speaking to this bill I must admit that, in relation to the commentary, as I read page 1, then page 2, and then page 3\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa9a20e23a6046c8858cd47a473cf601\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: You would not have been awake after that, would you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5281d52b8f4538b16e5b3b2a4d7646\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: It was hard work, but as I was reading through it I noticed the Green Party and the United Future party minority views, on page 5. Then I started reading through the actual parts of the bill. As I read through it, I came to a conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022373a20d7b37c4675912bebd99551d959\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228366e999eeda4524a52edcf5788c5e1b\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: The conclusion that I came to, I say to the member who asked me what it was, was that clearly the bill has the wrong name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b68205808327408aa74e26ae25b2d78a\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Tell me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded86d5f01684bb5a8232f15168dba24\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell the member why, because he asked. This bill has the wrong name because the actual name really does not satisfactorily represent the content. I will tell this House why. As I was reading through the commentary I noticed an excerpt that stated: \u201Cthe bill provides for the indexing of the proportion of excise and excise-equivalent duty allocated to the National Land Transport Fund to inflation,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ac00bfc9ead45518ecd3c6ba9dfcc65\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that mean to the average man?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b90f716e4fe4f17963f81830ece4219\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell the House exactly what that means in just a few minutes. Then I read another paragraph in the commentary, which stated: \u201CWe received 16 submissions.\u201D\u2014obviously, this is the Finance and Expenditure Committee speaking\u2014\u201CSubmitters generally expressed opposition to the increase in excise duty, suggesting that the funding required should be provided from the duty currently allocated as general Crown revenue,\u201D. Then I flicked over to the heading of \u201CCommencement date\u201D, under which was stated: \u201Cas oil prices are at high levels, the Minister of Customs proposed that we amend the bill to allow for the excise duty increase to come into force on a later date by Order in Council, to allow the implementation of the increase to be delayed.\u201D Then I flicked over to \u201CMinority views\u201D, and I saw that the Green Party and the United Future party had put minority views in, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdd514c602484f55a89349926daf76a7\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Who was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34d980291a341308e4eafe7d0d0b034\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: The Green Party and the United Future party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b236df616d04d54b36de825a88f62a3\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: They are not supporting an increase in tax!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f3a04e554a4d95b91896432e94d5ee\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: They are supporting an increase in motor vehicle tax. But not only that; I tell the member that they have put minority views in the commentary but they are supporting the bill. Quite frankly, I think that is\u2014well, there is a word that I know of that I am not allowed to mention in this House, and it starts with \u201Ch\u201D; I will leave it to the imagination of the members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003ESo as I was reading through the bill I realised that it had the wrong name. After reading all those aspects that I have just mentioned to the House, I realised that a more appropriate name for this bill would be the \u201CManipulation Bill.\u201D I call it the \u201CManipulation Bill\u201D because it is a direct attempt, a savage attempt, by the Government to sweep under the carpet, by indexation, the whole issue of it coming to Parliament every year to increase taxes on petrol. This Government loves taxing New Zealanders, year in, year out\u2014and I will go into that a little bit more later on in my speech. Then I thought, no, that name, \u201CManipulation Bill\u201D, does not go far enough. It actually should really be called, I believe, the \u201CDeception Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022628a801c2e6b434e99ecfc6e9608b4f1\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: That might be a bit harsh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221490d01bcaf14946a2214f9fac30e492\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is very appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246553cb73f60456c910ba97bc3aa8d24\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Fair enough!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c42662056d461db9d57c336e6cb305\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: The member says that that is fair enough, when he thinks about it. When other members of the House think about it, they too will think it is a fair enough statement. I want to explain this to the House. As I mentioned earlier, page 2 of the commentary states: \u201Cas oil prices are at high levels, the Minister of Customs proposed that we amend the bill to allow for the excise duty increase to come into force on a later date by Order in Council, to allow the implementation of the increase to be delayed.\u201D I have to ask the Minister\u2014he is not here at the moment, so I might as well ask the members who support this bill, and they are the members from United Future, the Greens, and the Labour Party\u2014whether they honestly expect the people of New Zealand, the people who, as I mentioned, are driving home from work right now, to seriously believe that rubbish, because that is what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdb5191b3ea647269cac360edf2e9100\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e1eb62cf184e9e97eb0f2ee5c40c4d\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: The member over here is right. Members of the public will not believe such rubbish. I just cannot believe what I am reading. It is a bit like a couple of years ago, when I was a new member in this House, when the sherry tax bill was introduced. I could not believe what I was reading. The Government said it would bring in the sherry tax to curb youth drinking. To be honest with you, I do not know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9e776d691e45d287f88684b7866ab1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Please do not bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dc233bcfc4f4cfeaa71fd4973d11a8a\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good point. I do not know of any member in this House\u2014young or old\u2014who honestly seriously believed that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003ETo get back to this bill, it is obviously a work in deception. That is my whole point. It should probably be named the \u201CDeception Bill\u201D. I have only one other name for this bill, because I think I have summed it up pretty well. It should be called the \u201CAnti-Democratic Bill\u201D. I cannot believe that during the Committee of the whole House yesterday the Minister had the audacity to say that to debate this bill was a democratic process, and that it was the first bill like this to come to Parliament, and it was being debated. I thought this will be the last time we debate this matter, as well; there will not be a lot of need to bring to the House the issue of petrol tax, because of the indexation clause within this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003ESo we get right back to what I was talking about earlier, right at the beginning of my speech: this bill is a deliberate attempt by the Government, the Greens, and United Future to sweep under the carpet the whole issue of taxation of petrol\u2014and they know it. The average hard-working, good New Zealander knows it, as well. Since this Government came into power in 1999 it has brought in 24 new taxes. Out of those 24 new taxes, this will be the fifth tax increase on motorists. As I said, the Government wants to index this tax so that it can maybe reduce the amount of times it actually puts it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EAs I close, I want to say that this bill is a disgrace, that the people of New Zealand will see through it come election time, and that they will vote for New Zealand First, because they know that New Zealand First can fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00228d6d3f750bbf473fa8b7ff7c1fce4063\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d6d3f750bbf473fa8b7ff7c1fce4063\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Communications):\u003C/span\u003E The country is recovering from a decade of neglect to infrastructure. Auckland is bogged down with a roading crisis, and this Government is doing what it can to solve that problem. My only reservation about this bill\u2014to the extent that I have any\u2014is that two-thirds of the money is not going to Auckland, and $1.3 billion is going to other places around the country. However, despite that, I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2b3d22c9b61465e9b177205fa46dbfc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Customs and Excise (Motor Spirits) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8e7b0f263d349dfb1ad856569334206\u0022\u003EFilms, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fc5b99fe7f4411bba45d17073d686ef\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e15ab173639d41fe9e7478f47319b341\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e15ab173639d41fe9e7478f47319b341\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill be now read a third time. The key feature of this legislation is that it implements tough sanctions against the production, trading, and possession of child pornography, and objectionable material of a nature similarly unacceptable to the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders. Electronic technology has made the transfer of images of this nature around the world much easier, and the volume of this material has multiplied over the last decade. Every image represents the actual abuse of a child, and every trader and consumer of such images creates a market that encourages more such abuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EChild pornography and extreme images such as sexual torture and snuff movies are unacceptable in our society. The sanctions against it should reflect our abhorrence and intolerance of such material and should act as a deterrent against it. Consequently, this legislation dramatically increases penalties for the production of, trade in, and possession of such objectionable material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EFor those producing, trading, and distributing these images the maximum penalty increases tenfold from 1 year\u2019s imprisonment to 10 years. This brings us into line with comparable countries such as the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia. For intentional possession of child pornography and like material the penalty increases from the status quo where there is no prison sentence, to 5 years\u2019 imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI moved a Supplementary Order Paper in Committee increasing the level of penalty to 5 years rather than the 2 years in the original bill and the 2 years recommended by the select committee. This was to recognise the desirability of consistency with like countries. Canada and the UK have had this level of penalty for several years, and states in Australia not already at this level are currently moving towards it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe deterrent effects, of course, are not only in the level of the penalty, but also in the prospect of being caught. In this respect I pay tribute to the excellent work done by the Department of Internal Affairs and its commitment, along with police and the Customs Service, to stamping out this vile trade. The Department of Internal Affairs has an effective monitoring and investigation unit that has achieved a prosecution success rate close to 100 percent. Its work is recognised by Interpol and by its counterparts in other countries as being second to none. It rejects, and I reject, allegations by an ill-informed Australian journalist in Time magazine that New Zealand could be a haven for child pornographers. That is sensationalist and inaccurate Kiwi-bashing that is simply not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAside from the major changes to the penalties that apply to objectionable material and the broadening of powers to exercise search warrants for it, a number of small changes have been made to clarify what the principal Act prohibits. By and large, no changes have been made to the scope of the material that can be found objectionable and that is therefore banned under the Act. The same gateway provisions are maintained in relation to what can be subject to censorship. Those are: \u201Cmatters such as sex, horror, crime, cruelty, or violence\u201D. The Act and the bill are not about exercising control over what people think and the opinions they wish to express, as falsely claimed by the ACT spokesperson, Stephen Franks. We live in a relatively liberal society in terms of what is accepted as an adult right to view or to hear, but there are images that are and will remain unacceptable to the vast majority of New Zealanders that we will not allow because of the damage done to individuals and society. In particular, those are images that involve child pornography, extreme violence, and sexual violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill makes explicit the decision in the second Moonen case before the Court of Appeal that sexualised images of naked children meet the gateway test for objectionable material. That does not and will not affect innocent images, but will allow the censor to deal with material currently and frequently being swapped by child pornographers. The bill also allows the censor to restrict some further matters as objectionable if shown to or viewed by children. That does not equate to an outright prohibition, but rather is a restriction to protect children. It has been accepted that some material that can be distributed to adults ought not to be put before children. Both publications and films currently have, when deemed appropriate, restrictions that do not allow access to them by those aged under 18. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ERestrictions placed in the bill relate to matters such as language that is highly offensive, suicide, infliction of pain and self-mutilation, and physical conduct of a degrading, dehumanising, or demeaning nature. Despite the arguments of the libertarian ACT party to the contrary, it is appropriate that we protect children against extreme examples of those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIt is also important to address what was in the 2002 Government Administration Committee inquiry report on the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act that is not included in this bill. Hate speech is not included, because I do not regard that as an appropriate topic to be addressed by the censor. Given the fundamental importance of freedom of speech in our society, it is a subject that needs to be approached with real caution and in a way consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. There was bipartisan agreement on the committee to hold an inquiry into hate speech. It is an appropriate subject for debate and analysis, and I look forward to hearing that debate. There is, however, no predetermination of what the outcome of that inquiry might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe other issue addressed by the select committee was covert filming. The covert filming of people without consent or knowledge in situations involving nudity or physical intimacy, where people have a reasonable expectation of privacy, frankly is unacceptable. Separate legislation will be introduced later this year, consistent with the Law Commission\u2019s report on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EFinally, I thank the select committee for the job it has done in\u2014I believe\u2014a non-partisan way, and most parties in this House for their support for what, I believe, is important and necessary legislation. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0f82690f39843d3953fdaa0cacbd3ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0f82690f39843d3953fdaa0cacbd3ee\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E National concurs with the views of the Minister\u2014not all his views, but certainly we have supported this bill through all its stages, and we will continue to do so during the third reading debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to summarise how National sees the bill. I think we need to take a step back to 1993, when the principal Act that we currently have was passed. Society has changed considerably. The emphasis then was on classifications that revolved around hard copy, but with the advent of the Internet, text messaging, and chat rooms, the scene has changed considerably. With that in mind, National has supported this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIt is also interesting to note what has happened in Australia. The Minister Phil Goff mentioned Australia. I have here a report from the Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts, released last year, headed: \u201CTough laws to target Internet child sex crime\u201D. I will read the first paragraph, because it summarises our position, as well. This is what the Australians said last year: \u201CUse of the Internet for accessing, transmitting or making available child pornography will be punishable by ten years\u2019 jail and using the Internet to procure or \u2018groom\u2019 children for sex will be punishable by up to fifteen years\u2019 jail under proposed new laws released for public comment today.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThat is what is happening in Australia, and New Zealand is in line with that. However, I think another comment that came from a report by the Standing Committee on Social Issues is important. The chairman stated: \u201CAt the centre of this inquiry has been the tension between the right of adults to see and hear what they want\u2014a right that underpins democratic and cultural expression\u2014and the need to ensure that vulnerable people, especially children, are protected from exposure to dangerous and exploitative material. While this tension has always been apparent in classification law, it poses new problems in the rapidly developing medium of the Internet.\u201D It is interesting that while we have been debating this over the last 12 months\u2014and prior to that when we had the inquiry\u2014the issues that other countries have also been facing are apparent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe bill will not go far enough for many people. They will certainly see it as not being tough enough in the direction they want to take. For others, the bill will be seen as maybe too restrictive\u2014and we heard that view during the Committee stage of the debate. It is certainly National\u2019s view that the bill clarifies some of the important issues that have arisen since the 1993 Act was introduced. It deals with subject matter such as sex, and it enables the Office of Film and Literature Classification to consider whether such material should be prohibited, applying the same substantive rules that it does now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn relation to nude or partially nude images of children or young persons, the chief censor is likely to assess whether a publication, firstly, deals with the subject matter in such a manner that the availability of the publication is \u201Clikely to be injurious to the public good\u201D, and, secondly, \u201Cpromotes or supports, or tends to promote or support, the exploitation of children, or young persons, or both, for sexual purposes:\u201D With regard to the provision dealing with highly offensive language, there is just a small number of publications that the bill captures. It does not deal with any of the objectionable grounds such as sex, horror, crime, cruelty, or violence, but nevertheless it contains an emphasis on the quantity of highly offensive language, and age restrictions then become justifiable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENo one has talked about intimate covert filming, which the bill does cover, and I will mention that. The bill does focus on covert filming of another person, without that person\u2019s consent or knowledge, in situations involving nudity or physical intimacy where people have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and I think that that is an important position. I talked about the display of restricted publications in relation to trailers for DVDs, videos, and films. They have a classification, and a trailer should have whatever classification the film has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENo one has talked about film festivals. They are not exempt from the legislation. The legislation requires all films to be rated, classified, and labelled before they are made available to the public. That underpins two fundamental objectives that National supports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022df55b35a14ea423fb8bc909b63fec748\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df55b35a14ea423fb8bc909b63fec748\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I find myself in the position of wishing to complete Mr Tisch\u2019s call. He was speaking prior to the dinner break, and I understand he had 4 minutes to complete his contribution. It will not come as any great surprise to members of the House to learn that the National Party will support the third reading of the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill. Some reservations have been expressed by members on this side of the House regarding the penalties imposed by the bill, and the severity and extent of those penalties. I am sure that, like me, members have received a number of pieces of correspondence on the issue of penalties and their severity if, indeed, a person is found to be in breach of the provisions of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt in the minds of National Party members that in respect of this legislation, in an attempt to balance issues of freedom of expression on the one hand and then to deal with what can only be described as despicable criminal behaviour on the other hand, the issues of freedom of expression are well and truly overtaken by a greater public good\u2014which is, of course, to protect innocent children and to protect innocent members of our society who may be taken advantage of in the technological age. I do not think that any member of the House would quibble with that fact. As I say, Judith Collins, the member for Clevedon, will follow me later in the debate and give a comprehensive outline of matters relating to this bill. She, of course, was heavily involved in the bill\u2019s stages as it progressed through both the House and the select committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI will complete Lindsay Tisch\u2019s speech by simply saying that it would be a brave member of Parliament\u2014actually, it would be a foolish member\u2014who stood in this Chamber and did anything but support the intent of this bill. Members of the National Party, as I have expressed, do have some reservations about the severity of the penalties to be imposed under the offences provisions of the bill. I will leave the matter there, and I will look forward to the contributions that other members in the House will make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4ebe14ff5a34b209857b6e24e500ec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4ebe14ff5a34b209857b6e24e500ec1\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be given the opportunity to make a third reading speech. First, I would like to thank the chair of the Government Administration Committee, Dianne Yates, who nurtured this bill through, and also all the members on that committee. They took this legislation very, very seriously. It was one of the nicest bills I have ever worked on\u2014for something so contentious and difficult\u2014in that we worked in consensus on it. I thank the National Opposition members who were on the committee, Lindsay Tisch and Shane Ardern. They worked very well with the other committee members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EAlso, we were well supported by staff from the Department of Internal Affairs. They took us to see their monitoring of Internet sites, and I was incredibly impressed with the professionalism of the small unit that traces the trading and movement of Internet pornography, globally, and with how well it did it. New Zealanders can be very proud of that unit, which is run by the Department of Internal Affairs. They can feel confident that the unit is taking a real world lead in participating in and contributing to the tracking of child pornography. That was very reassuring to the whole committee. We had first considered this bill after the Ministry of Justice review of offence and enforcement provisions, but it was only after looking at some of the images when we visited the unit that we realised that perhaps the penalties regime proposed in the original bill was too light. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EAlso, it was really quite deeply disturbing to see, after a briefing by the Chief Censor of Film and Literature, the censorship challenges that members of the censor\u2019s staff have with the classification of publications\u2014whether those be moving images, books, or magazines. I personally found their work to be hugely challenging. I would be classified as being a liberal, but there was a threshold at which I found some of the images to be absolutely abhorrent, because they definitely depicted women, children, or men\u2014who were not actively participating in the filming of those images, at all\u2014being grossly exploited. There was a margin where one thought: \u201CThis is OK\u2014Whoops! This is the cut-off.\u201D So, after having been briefed so intensely by the chief censor and the classification office, as well as by the Department of Internal Affairs, we certainly took this bill incredibly seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe offence provisions and penalties in the bill are not light, and that is exactly as we intended. We intended to put out the message that reflected both this Government\u2019s and society\u2019s abhorrence of the dealing in this material. As well, people who distribute pornography do not do it lightly. It is not just a matter of those people flicking on a file; it is about their downloading material, meticulously filing it into subfolders, and then posting if off to people whom they know like the particular material in a folder. The demand for that is incredibly sophisticated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EAs a mother, I feel regretful that I did not watch my children\u2019s use of the Internet closely enough. I thought they were happily engaged. I really do urge all parents in New Zealand to monitor more what their children are quietly doing when they are on the family PC, and make sure they are not happening upon, quite innocently often, some horrific Internet pornography sites that are very, very easy to trip on to. I urge parents in New Zealand to take more of an active lead in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis bill is a very good tidy-up of outdated legislation passed in 1993. Technology has moved on quite dramatically in the last 12 years\u2014from what first were just publications, really. Films that went through the censor are now also part of the fast-changing global Internet. I believe we have got the measures in this bill right, and I would like to thank all those who contributed to it. The bill, sadly, is not supported by one Opposition party, probably because its members were not party or privy to what we saw when on the select committee. I believe that if, responsibly, they had been party to that process, they would never have held the rather peculiar views they subscribed to in their debate on the bill. I know that our community can feel that we have a pretty good grip on this now, and that those who are dealing in this material\u2014not innocently but deliberately\u2014will meet a penalty that is commensurate with penalties in the UK and Canada and that will put us on an equitable footing with the rest of the world. I was proud to be part of this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcad1a0e984444a2953b792003a1dd9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcad1a0e984444a2953b792003a1dd9d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that New Zealand First was not represented on the Government Administration Committee but we have been following the bill, as best we are able, with quite some interest. I was a little bit concerned about the select committee\u2019s report back, and the member who has just resumed her seat has highlighted that concern, even more. This bill came back to the House with a meek and mild penalty regime. It was only the Minister, in response to a letter or some urging from a Denise Ritchie of the Stop Demand Foundation, who brought in a Supplementary Order Paper that brought the penalties in line with those in Britain and Canada, which have had such penalties for some several years. Australia is currently examining its penalty regime. So New Zealand First was concerned that a bill went through the select committee process, and, clearly, the members on that committee did not take any notice or do any research into what the penalties were in other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports absolutely tougher penalties for people who want to trade in pornographic material\u2014particularly, child pornography. We are in no doubt about that. We refer to such people as \u201Cpeople\u201D, but I have another word for it, although I do not know whether it is parliamentary. It is something along the lines of \u201Cscumbags\u201D, or something like that. I like to think I am too polite to refer generally to people in that way. But I do compliment the Minister on having the fortitude to say that the penalties recommended by the select committee were not good enough and his Supplementary Order Paper would bring them in line with Canada and Britain, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003Eand with what Australia plans to do. We are talking about an international trade in pornography, and it is traded internationally; make no bones about it. Frankly, I would like to throw the book at these guys, and some of them I would not let out again, but that is just me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI want to touch on a little concern that I had about the way the debate was handled. I know that ACT will oppose the third reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209f6e6063784412290de4c4cc0620471\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: What for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8fdfd109be7406ba6412f1e719f1834\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No doubt the honourable member will hear an ACT speaker and learn why. In fairness to ACT, Stephen Franks put forward six amendments in the Committee stage last night, and I looked at them as closely as I could, and I thought he made some very good points. In fairness to ACT, which I know will oppose the bill, although I cannot understand why, I think Stephen Franks wanted to tighten up on the legislation not change it. From what I have read, he did not want to change the intention of the bill, he wanted to tighten up the powers of the chief censor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere was one issue that touched me, and I know that Stephen Franks will highlight this, or, at least, I hope he will. It relates to clause 4B(3): \u201CWithout limiting section 42(3) of the principal Act, the Chief Censor may be satisfied under that subsection that there are special circumstances justifying reconsideration of a decision made in respect of a publication if the Chief Censor considers that the decision may be altered because of the new provisions.\u201D That is giving this guy\u2014the chief censor, who I personally believe is not doing his job very well, to be honest\u2014the power to look at decisions retrospectively. A video was produced a few years ago by, I think, Living Word. I had heard so much about it that I thought I would watch the thing. It is a good cure for insomnia! I struggled to keep awake. It is as boring as can be, but shows people in the background, as I recall, expressing their concerns about homosexuality, the spread of homosexuality, and the effect it has on people. I cannot recall it in detail, and I do not want to, but it revolves around a crowd of people, mainly homosexuals, saying how they were going to change the world, sell their cause, and so on. The censor banned that video\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022190511f31a704507bb2d2380b540d44f\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209fde8b263334175999df3041ede2f13\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is. The censor banned it, only to have the decision overturned by a higher authority. Now, under clause 4B(3) I think he can ban it again. I have a genuine concern that this could lead to the banning of people expressing views, particularly on moral issues. I agree with the Hon Phil Goff that we should be able to debate such things. I am talking about hate speech. I think it is ridiculous to have legislation banning hate speech, to be honest. It is one step from banning \u201Cthink speech\u201D. Some people have nasty thoughts about other people all the time, and we cannot change the rules to deal with that. But this seems to be an insidious way to open the door on that sort of thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI sat here last night in the Committee stage and listened to every speaker. The Hon Phil Goff made some very, very good points in his contribution, and I like Phil Goff; I think he makes good sense. But I was disappointed when he turned to Stephen Franks\u2019 amendments, because he became somewhat hysterical\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb564b74551c4017940f232eea14cad2\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Emotional.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5202333fbe5456eb6b35a6cff993452\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: He became emotional and hysterical, as he sometimes does. But my admiration is so great for the man that if I had a bottle of Valium with me I would give him a pill. I would not give it to many of those members opposite, but I do admire Phil Goff and I would give him a pill to calm him down, if I possibly could. But last night I did not have any pills with me and nobody could calm him down, and, effectively, he got stuck into Stephen Franks, quite unfairly, and Stephen Franks was not given the right of reply. Although I disagree with Stephen Franks on many of his views, I think he has made some sense here and should have had the right of reply to explain what he stands for and what it is all about. Clearly, he has put a lot of work into these amendments, and, as I say, they sat comfortably with me and my New Zealand First colleagues, in the short discussion I had with them to ask them whether we would support the amendments. We did in fact support them. It disappoints me, and I say this sincerely, that if we are going to have debates where somebody can raise something and then not give the member a right of reply after he or she is attacked, then we are not doing justice to ourselves, we are not doing justice to Parliament, and certainly we are not doing justice to New Zealanders. This is a hot topic in the minds of very many people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI personally think the interpretation of the censorship legislation in this country is so loose and liberal that it is almost useless. From time to time the censor, in my view, does a good thing\u2014about once in every hundred. I have read many of his reports. I would not have the gumption, the fortitude, or whatever, to read his reports out in this House. They describe so many disgusting and degrading actions that occur in films. I have seen one of the films\u2014only one. I will never go to another. I was asked to go and have a look at it and see what it is about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f36f868ae94beb91bae9339306a465\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: This member has been on the wharves!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b871ad79e164a4b9de63c5385a7131f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen and heard things on the wharves, but they pale into insignificance compared with some of these movies that are coming through. I have not lived a sheltered life. I might look like that, but I have not lived a sheltered life. I have seen this world, the seamy side of it, in all places, but this stuff that we are allowing into this country, and the censor is allowing in, is absolutely disgusting. I am of the view that if we feed our bodies with lousy food, if we feed ourselves on hamburgers and chips every day and night, we all know that our bodies will suffer. I say to the honourable members that if we feed this sort of garbage that is going through the censor\u2019s office, day after day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022811a0d05c1cc48aa977178288e079cf0\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: Have you given this advice to Gerry Brownlee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022712a26ca73aa49eb9c3c97254769eb82\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I give advice to anybody I can, but whether they listen, I do not know. It is not for lack of trying. If young people are subjected to this sort of garbage they turn out worse for wear. I have sincere regrets that Stephen Franks did not get the opportunity to talk to his amendments last night, which is only fair and democratic. As a result they were defeated. But I think he probably could have made a point whereby members opposite could have said they were worthwhile. They listened to Denise Ritchie. They could have listened to Stephen Franks with some sincerity, and I think this bill would have been better for it. Nevertheless, New Zealand First is going to support this bill because, in large part, it covers a very, very serious issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022d577b663e86742ba9c1d4cbbceaa8295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d577b663e86742ba9c1d4cbbceaa8295\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise for the ACT party in the third reading and last debate on this amendment to our censorship legislation. I have very much appreciated the comments made by Mr Peter Brown of New Zealand First, whom last night I noticed was following the debate. There were 15 calls, including three from Lindsay Tisch and from other members who sat on the Government Administration Committee. Peter Brown followed the debate very closely, because he was genuinely using it for a purpose for which it is not often used in this Chamber. He used the debate in the Committee stage to try to decide how to vote on a matter that is quite thorny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ECensorship is a thorny issue. We can all feel horror at the perversions that are made to seem normal or attractive. We can all wish that pornographers were much more heavily sanctioned socially, or that there was a way in which the community\u2019s disgust could be converted into making life much harder for them. I remember years ago when my firm was working on the upgrading of the new trans-Pacific telephone cable. We had to go into the financing of that and do a whole lot of the background technical work. In the end we called the team of lawyers who worked on the funding of that billion-dollar project \u201Cteam pornography\u201D, because we found that the traffic that was expected to pay for the cable was typical of the traffic on the Internet. The experts told us that at that stage about 60 percent of the data load would be porn, which is very sad when we think of that flowering of human capacity and the enormous talent that is being crystallised on the Internet\u2014and what it was being used for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI thought we would be approaching this bill as a no-brainer, that in fact there would be a few ritual speeches and we would all vote for it, because it was updating our censorship law to take account of the Internet and to increase penalties in areas where we have found we needed them\u2014for example, for people who may be liable for trading but not for possession, but who, nevertheless, have enormous quantities of that sort of material. If the law is to be there, it should be enforced. I thought we would get an explanation from the Government of just why it was passing new law, yet again, when it is not very good on enforcement. We have just had Time magazine labelling us as a \u201Cpervert\u2019s paradise\u201D. The truth is that it does not matter how many words we put into the law or what we talk about in this Chamber, if there is some kind of reluctance to enforce the law, then it is idle to be increasing penalties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EMr Goff referred to the very good work being done by the Department of Internal Affairs in trying to track down child pornographers and people who harbour pornographic material, and he referred to it with his throbbing intensity of distaste for them. However, he did not explain why it was that when a list was supplied to the Australians by US customs from a very big sting in the US, the Australians went out and arrested some 200 people, but when the list showed that New Zealand participation had apparently been pro rata much the same, nothing happened here. We understand that the police had actually assembled and planned to do a raid, but still nothing happened. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo I was a bit stunned, I say to Mr Brown, to find that I was the victim of an attack from a Minister who would not explain what had happened in that respect or answer legitimate questions as to why Australia had discovered a whole lot of those people in its midst, named from a list supplied by the US, but we had apparently found none. And, of course, how will we find them now, once they have been warned of the scale of this bust and they know where the list came from? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ETo come back to the bill, I was persuaded by Mr Goff\u2019s explanation that my proposed amendment to the meaning of the word \u201Cobjectionable\u201D was unnecessary. I was also persuaded by Mr Goff\u2019s hysterical reaction that what I had identified as \u201Cthe risks\u201D in the other part of the bill was eminently justified, because he could have been just as reasonable and detailed in his explanation on that part as he was on the first amendment. Instead, he did not even try to deal with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EMy concern is that this bill is a Trojan Horse. The Government has bracketed and tied together some very sound ideas for improving enforcement capacity and penalties with a sneaky and very, very slippery change to the censor\u2019s powers, to enable the censor to go back and take revenge for having been blocked in trying to block the Living Word videos. I read in the new sections 3A to 3D, proposed to be inserted into the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act by clause 4A of the bill, precisely the language that the censor tried to use against the Living Word videos. Mr Brown usefully summarised them as being about a pretty unpersuasive, boring group of talking heads in suits, saying why they thought homosexuality was bad for kids and bad for the country. The censor was stopped from banning those videos because the Court of Appeal correctly said that it would have been an intrusion on free speech. Whether or not we like it, people have a right to say that they do not like lifestyles and to try to persuade others not to adopt them. That is how cultures evolve. If it is offensive to some people to have their lifestyle described as despicable, degrading, dehumanised, or in all those other ways; that, too, is how societies evolve. The Catholic Church responded with rage to what it said was blasphemy when people first questioned some of its doctrines, and now those things are mainstream. It could happen only with free speech that was offensive to the majority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat do I find in the new section 3A in clause 4A of the bill? I find a power to ban \u201Chighly offensive language\u201D. Mr Goff said that it just means swearing and foul language. Well, I ask why he did not use those words. Why does the bill not say that, because it is defined in the new section 3A(3) as something that is \u201Chighly offensive to the public in general\u201D. That is precisely why we have free speech. We must tolerate people who are offensive, and we should define the term so that it does relate to swearing and foul language. The bill should clearly state that it does not relate to the content. People are not entitled to take offence purely at content. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESection 3 of the current Act covers violence, torture, horror, and exploitation of children\u2014the things that this community has decided censorship ought to cover and that we recognised and would have supported. Instead, we have this term, \u201Chighly offensive language\u201D, which the censor can use to cover anything that he does not like. Worse still, the censor will now be able to ban stuff in the hands of people of a specified age\u2014but the bill does not say what the age is\u2014if it describes, depicts, or expresses physical conduct of a \u201Cdemeaning nature\u201D. That is in the new section 3B. Demeaning? Well, that would include laughing at fat people. Is that now able to be bannable? Section 3B(3)(b)(ii) goes on to include visual images of a person\u2019s body \u201Cwith any other contents of the publication\u201D that is degrading or demeaning. Well, that could be anything. Then section 3B(4) goes further and states that the censor can do that, if the availability of the publication would cause people to be shocked or encourage them to regard themselves or others as demeaned. That is precisely what free speech is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThen I find that section 3D\u2014although the select committee reported to this House that it did not want to interfere with the Court of Appeal\u2019s decision on a gateway; in other words, the subject matter had to be about violence, torture, horror, or exploitation of children before the censor could start inflicting his own philosophy\u2014excludes and reverses the Court of Appeal\u2019s decision. This section states very clearly that the censor can apply those new tests without regard to section 3. Then, as Mr Brown pointed out, we find out further on, in clause 4B, that it is retrospective. It is retrospective, which is bad in principle. The select committee made no explanation as to why it should be able to go back, and Mr Goff made no attempt to tell us why he was so adamant that this was not intended to allow reversal of the decision on the Living Word video, or anything like it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI am extremely sorry that we cannot vote for this bill, but we have to stand up for a principle. The Government deliberately brackets together a bill that has been toughened up with our support\u2014a bill that we could have supported 80 or 90 percent of\u2014tying it together with the agenda of that nasty little cabal that controls the Labour Party and wants to tell others how to live. This is a direct assault on freedom of speech. I was delighted that National, New Zealand First, the Greens, and ACT stood for principle yesterday and voted for amendments to try to restrict this bill back to what it should be about, which is child pornography, bestiality, and other disgusting material for censoring, and I was astonished that United Future saved this little plot of the Government\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022d05a1d06154f4e2e8c141d87fceb5a07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d05a1d06154f4e2e8c141d87fceb5a07\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be voting for the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill. However, we think it could have been a much better bill. The increased penalties in the bill should have been targeted at those who are involved in child pornography\u2014that is, the sentences should have been applied to child pornographers rather than to people who might possess other types of objectionable publications. This is why the Law Society suggested\u2014and it could easily have been done\u2014that we increase the penalties for trading, exhibiting, and possessing child pornography, not for possessing or trading all other types of objectionable publications. Now everyone is subject to the maximum sentences of 10 years in jail for circulating any type of objectionable material, and 5 years in jail for possession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe public would have been confused by what they read this morning in some newspapers, which reported that the maximum penalty for possessing child pornography had been increased to 5 years\u2019 imprisonment. In fact, there was no mention whatsoever of child pornography in the amendment put to the House last night. The 5-year maximum term applies to every single type of objectionable material, which is why the Greens voted against that amendment. In explaining our vote, we said we opposed the amendment because the House had not done as the Law Society suggested and separated out the higher-end penalty specifically for child pornography. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere has been an incredible increase in the maximum penalty for possessing any type of objectionable publication. This application to all objectionable publications could be dangerous, particularly in these days of the Internet. This is where I think many New Zealanders need to get very worried. I am not talking about child pornography; I am talking specifically about all the other objectionable things that circulate on the Internet\u2014material with offensive language, pornography other than child pornography, and \u201Chow to\u201D guides to doing anything that is currently illegal. The censor has declared, for example, that having a guide to cultivating marijuana is illegal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOrdinary New Zealanders get a lot of different types of objectionable material through their email, through email attachments, accidental downloads from the Internet, or downloads by others who happen to live in the same house and use the same computer. We all know that teenagers are often overly inquisitive, and, as Steve Chadwick, the Labour promoter of this bill, has just said, it is very, very easy to trip over this sort of stuff. Under the amendment passed last night, a person can now be thrown into jail for 5 years for having that sort of material on his or her computer, whereas previously that person would have been eligible for a $2,000 fine. Admittedly, there now has to be a \u201Creasonable cause to believe\u201D that that person actually knew that the stuff was on his or her computer, but it might be hard for people to prove that they did not know. People process their emails and Internet downloads very quickly. They do not take into their brains all the contents, or catch on that some of the stuff they flick through very quickly could be defined as objectionable and thus illegal, or that they could be put in jail for 5 years because it is still sitting on their computer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWho determines whether the material on one\u2019s computer is objectionable? It is the police and the Department of Internal Affairs, in the main, particularly when dealing with what is on one\u2019s computer. It is not the censorship authority, although one could bring it in if one was defending oneself against the police in court. We cannot always trust the police to get it right, and this is the same police force that, a couple of years ago, prosecuted Aucklander Bruce Hubbard for sending an email to the American Embassy accusing the American Government of \u201Cnapalming babies\u201D in Iraq. The police were absolutely clear that those two words\u2014\u201Cnapalming babies\u201D\u2014were objectionable and justified prosecution, although under pressure they later dropped the charges. This is the same police force that tried to censor Ahmed Zaoui, saying when he arrived here that he could not be allowed access to the media in case he got support for his cause. Admittedly, the police and the censorship authorities are generally much better than they were in the past. However, when constructing legislation and bringing in harsh penalties, we have to bear in mind how those penalties could be used by a more repressive Government in the future\u2014a Government that gets the police force, the Department of Internal Affairs, and the censorship body to act more harshly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn 1989 the Department of Internal Affairs put out a book called Censored: A Short History of Censorship in New Zealand, which details a long legacy of political censorship in this country. The Labour politicians who, in this legislation, are pushing through high maximum sentences for all objectionable material, including politically objectionable material, would do well to read this book and read about way the Labour Party has suffered from political censorship in the past. In the past, publications circulated by Labour politicians were censored. Walter Nash, who became a Prime Minister, was a left-wing book seller before he became a politician, and he had a lot of trouble with censored radical books. In the 1930s, socialists were jailed for possessing banned books. All sorts of films have been banned over the years, such as Marlon Brando\u2019s The Wild One and Last Tango in Paris, and so on, and we might laugh about that today. In 1967 the censor judged the film Ulysses to be \u201Can embarrassment for mixed company to view\u201D and ordered that audiences be segregated into male and female. In 1972 Germaine Greer was convicted for using the word \u201Cbullshit\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn reality, Governments at various times like to use political scares to make people fearful, in order to get them to support the Government. There have been numerous scares in New Zealand over the years. There were scares about \u201CRed Fed\u201D unionists early last century, scares about the Labour Party destroying the country in the 1920s and 1930s, scares about socialists and communists, and, most recently, there have been scares about Islamic extremists. In all these scares, censorship has been applied to the targets. Currently in Britain the biggest case concerns an Islamic extremist called Abu Hamza al-Masri, who has been charged with possessing certain documents, videotapes, and audiotapes, and may be subject to penalties. The views he expresses in those documents, videotapes, etc. are often distasteful. Some of them are what we might call \u201Chate speech\u201D. The Minister says that hate speech will be dealt with further down the track, but the reality is that if this legislation later includes hate speech, that offence will be covered under the harsh new penalties of 5 and 10 years\u2019 imprisonment, so it is part of this debate. We could get the situation where, if Destiny New Zealand circulates certain emails to its members, hundreds of people could be subject to 5 years in jail for possessing objectionable publications. That is a possibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI put forward an amendment yesterday to try to make the definition of child pornography in the bill more consistent. Clause 4, \u201CMeaning of objectionable\u201D, specifies images of \u201Cnude or partially nude\u201D children that are \u201Creasonably capable of being regarded as sexual in nature.\u201D That is too broad for us to go along with, because it could be used against people who simply possess naked images. It is very hard, using that definition, to distinguish between what is truly child pornography and what is not. The solution I offered, which was supported by a number of parties in the House but unfortunately not by the Government, was the obvious one of just using a definition from elsewhere in the bill. The definition in new section 145A, inserted by clause 32, which talks about extraterritorial jurisdiction for child pornography offences is a much better one. It states: \u201C \u2018child pornography\u2019 means\u2014(a) representation, by any means, of a person who is or appears to be under 18 years of age engaged in real or simulated explicit sexual activities; or (b) a representation of the sexual parts of a person of that kind for primarily sexual purposes\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhy not be consistent in this respect? Why do we have to create a problem whereby we might ban Germaine Greer\u2019s book The Boy because it has a lot of images of boys? She says not only that they are artistic but also that she gains pleasure from looking at them, but she is not talking about the kind of pleasure of someone who is involved in child pornography. We do not want to get into a situation where we are overly censoring simply naked images. That is why I put forward the amendment. As I said at the beginning of my speech, the Green Party supports this bill overall, and we will be voting for its third reading. But we will continue to be concerned about, and to argue against, the censorship implications of the bill beyond the question of child pornography.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u00221ff9e8d256084cab95de914abbfc3d02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ff9e8d256084cab95de914abbfc3d02\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker mentioned that socialists had been imprisoned for what they said and thought. Although I am not an advocate for censorship, I am now starting to warm to the idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe problem of pornography and child pornography in this country is one of huge concern, and this bill addresses a number of things. The Department of Internal Affairs caught 103 men trading in child pornography between 1997 and January 2003 in Operation Landslide, but it is a long and drawn-out process and a difficult one for the department. Investigators have to go into chat rooms. When offered child pornography they can obtain a warrant to get the personal details provided to the Internet service provider. They then trace the address of the person who offered the material. The investigators then have to obtain another warrant to visit the offender\u2019s address and seize his or her computer and any other evidence that is deemed necessary. Of course, New Zealand law does not allow the police to execute search warrants on people who simply visit a website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe point is that it is a very long, drawn-out process and up until now the penalties have not been very substantial at all. On 14 January of this year it was reported that nearly half of the 185 convicted child-pornography users profiled in a study by the department had regular access to children. That is hugely worrying. Those offenders aged between 15 and 20 were the single largest demographic group and represented 25 percent of all child-pornography users. That should be a big warning sign for all of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EOn 11 March it was reported that an Auckland man was caught trading, advertising, and collecting images that included the rape of 3-year-olds, toddlers being tortured, and sex acts on babies. He did not even get a prison term. We clearly have a long way to go, and this legislation is but one of a number of steps that we have to pursue to try to stem the tide of pornography, which is an abuse on individuals, and child pornography, which is the worst of all in many ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI take issue with some of the matters raised by the ACT member. Highly offensive language is targeted in this bill. There is a distinction between highly offensive language and highly offensive ideas. They are not the same thing. A message can be conveyed without certain types of language being used and without the message necessarily being watered down. Furthermore, it is not an out and out restriction; it is simply a cap. Highly offensive language is not subject to an outright censorship, but to a restriction\u2014a curb\u2014for those under the age of 18. So that creates a very reasonable balance with the main aims and thrusts of this bill. I think that ACT\u2019s objection is a Trojan Horse that hides behind the facade of freedom of expression, at the expense of the protection of our most vulnerable. I simply do not buy it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EUnder this legislation, people producing, trading in, or distributing child pornography will face up to 10 years in jail\u2014a tenfold increase on the present penalties\u2014and that has to be welcomed. The bill also extends the offences of trading and distribution to cover all forms of distribution, whether or not commercial gain is involved. There will also be new offences of possession with knowledge, to apply where a person has reasonable cause to believe that a publication is objectionable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIt is sad that such a bill needs to be passed by the House, but it must be welcomed. It is good to see that nearly all parties in this House have put party political nonsense aside in order to be constructive and to work together. It is good to see that when matters of law and order are concerned, both National and Labour have sought to put aside their differences and put the interests of the public ahead. I also acknowledge the support of New Zealand First and the Greens. It is a tragedy that there was not a unanimous decision by all the parties of this House to pass the bill. It is a tragedy that ACT could not see beyond its own strange, odd, libertarian nonsense and put the interests of children and the most vulnerable people in our society ahead of its own nauseating, sanctimonious ideologies. United Future supports this bill and commends it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c27dc942b1d44b1299c37528b37ec6b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c27dc942b1d44b1299c37528b37ec6b9\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I am very, very pleased to take a brief call on the third reading of the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill. I must express how impressed I am with the quality of the debate that has occurred this evening and with all the various views that have been shared about these important matters regarding censorship and pornography, and the greater penalties for offences that are provided for in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EI planned to take a longer call because I could refer to my own problems with censorship in the past. I, too, was in a film once\u2014a legitimate one\u2014that ended up on television. It was censored and that delayed the programme going to air for a year, because apparently the subject matter was contrary to the public\u2019s good taste. The subject matter was about a day in the life of a transsexual and a transvestite. It took a year for the chief of television of the day\u2014and this was in the 1980s\u2014to get it to air.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210cfaad443744e46bebc84457159f031\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Get over it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223986dc8a8f534904a791b4e8377167ea\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! Get over it. It did go to air and received five nominations for the 1987 film and television awards, including, I humbly say, one nomination for myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EHowever, I do not want to trivialise the serious nature of this bill. I congratulate the members of the House who, by majority at least, are supporting the bill. I appreciate and respect the ACT party\u2019s view. They are entitled to it. We may not agree with it, and obviously we do not on this particular matter, but nevertheless Mr Franks made himself clear. It is just that he left us seeing it as clearly as mud sometimes. I commend the bill to the House and hope that it proceeds speedily through the rest of its course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00222834ab2c774c4e358ee330653f427309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222834ab2c774c4e358ee330653f427309\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with most of the speakers most of the time this evening. That is a shock to the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad6486ae82214c558fb8703f7c77116b\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: There must be something wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e7c1f2b1b143e587251e901e1ef4f0\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a shock to the system and, as Mr Samuels said, there must be something wrong. There is not very much in the bill that I would like to object to, except for the fact that United Future should have supported the ACT amendments last night because they were sensible amendments. Everyone else would have sung United Future\u2019s praises and understood why that party is in Parliament, because we have no other idea what it is doing here. This would have been the opportunity for United Future members to stand up for a bit of common sense. But they did not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a8f115b3134f249aac2f7ad5481096\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Great! MP Judith Collins on moral issues!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265584a11f333472abf69d21318fd59be\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014and on a moral issue, too. It was absolutely a moral issue. But they did not, and it was all to do with United Future\u2019s little rules. But a lot of life is not about rules; it is about getting on, doing the job, and doing the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI was a bit shocked that I kept agreeing with Mr Locke\u2014until he got on to the censorship issue about the reds under the bed, when I thought that maybe censorship was OK, after all. But, never mind! I will not discuss that because I am generally quite opposed to censorship, except in respect of things like child pornography and images of the degradation of people, rape, and things like that. I am personally very concerned about the censorship of, let me say, impure words, because I am frankly very happy we are still allowed to say impure words. It is sometimes a lot better to swear at someone than it is to hit the person. For a lot of people, who have not gone through university and learnt fancy words, that is how people communicate, and it should be legitimate. If we cannot have a good swear in a movie, that cuts out just about any movie that is worthwhile watching\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d27daa04434944b520066e7b6e9e13\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: This is the family spokeswoman!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295ef97cbb3a24f6eb30d7ad7ef7c36ea\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014in terms of the 1970s. Yes. I tell the member that I would rather people had the freedom to say what they liked than be hamstrung by silly laws written by people who do not like what others say. That is nothing to do with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d56aca8df74d06af8e4f5ef2bdcc50\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What about Disney movies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226472435c4cf041da9d48a6ab065654e7\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I stopped watching Disney movies about 30 years ago. Maybe Mr Hughes still watches Disney movies, but I have moved on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThere is one reason why I am supporting this bill. It is not about the silly hate-speech nonsense the Government is trying to push through; it is because of the increase of penalties relating to child pornography. If there is one offence that every single person in this House, I hope, thinks is revolting, disgusting, and beyond thought, it is child pornography or child sex acts. I am sure we all agree about that. No doubt, that is why everyone in this House is shocked to see that we have under-18-year-olds prostituting themselves in central Christchurch, in Manurewa, and in other places like that, yet nothing happens about enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI take the good point that Mr Alexander made about the lack of penalties being imposed on offenders in cases of child pornography. It is all very well for us to stand up here and to praise the wonderful work of the Department of Internal Affairs in its picking up of those perverts\u2014frankly, I think: \u201CGood on the department!\u201D for doing it\u2014but such people have to be prosecuted and they have to be penalised in some way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI am particularly concerned, from what Mr Alexander said\u2014and I know it is true\u2014about the children of 15 to 17 years who are accessing this stuff. These are young people with very young minds at very impressionable ages, and what they might think of doing when they say: \u201CLet\u2019s have a look to see what it is.\u201D, can very easily become what is quite clearly an addiction like any other sort of addiction, except that it is an addiction to views of children being abused. I think that is pretty awful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhen we think back to the days when we had the first bill of this sort, back in 1993, we remember that we really did not have total access to the Internet for everybody in the house. Now many homes have more than one computer\u2014let alone just one\u2014because computers have got a lot cheaper over the years as technology has improved. There is also access through libraries, schools, and workplaces, and that is one of the problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EA concern I have in relation to this bill, of course, is that of unwitting possession, which Mr Franks dealt with again tonight: the situation where the sorts of pornography we are talking about can be put on to files that we, as people who may not be experts in computers, can download by mistake. We have often seen, and many of us will have found, the cookies that are put on to computer websites. One could end up in a particular website, and the next thing that happens is that something flashes up on-screen. Normally it is trying to sell some sort of male health-issue drug\u2014which is not something that I need, I can tell this House. That is the sort of thing that can happen, and I am very concerned that those sorts of things can end up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c192687340a944269818bcd1617d6dce\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Far too much information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55083698cfc40cabd436d8c25c88a1e\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Did Mr Burton want to make a comment about that? He wanted to know all about it. Well, I am sure that he can get someone to look at it; I know Dr Paul Hutchison, as a doctor, will be happy to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOn a more serious matter, it is of concern that the Government bowed only to the pressure brought on by Denise Ritchie and End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography, Child Sex Tourism and Trafficking in Children for Sexual Purposes\u2014and, I should hasten to add, by the work of Deborah Coddington, the ACT MP; as the House should know, I do not often give praise\u2014which brought to the Government\u2019s attention that it would be soft on this sort of crime again if it said that 2 years was enough as the maximum penalty for possession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is all very well for us to hear, after a lot of huffing and puffing from the Ministers, that we will now be tough and have the same penalties as the UK and Canada. Well, why should New Zealand not lead the world? Is this not something we could lead the world in? Could we not be a little tougher and, at the same time, could we not be a little more sensible\u2014as Mr Franks urged this House to be in relation to some of the other parts of the bill\u2014as to how we could make this work better in practice? I see Mr Alexander is impressed with those comments. There is no point in getting ourselves excited and pushing this amendment bill through, and then having to come back into the House after the first court case when we realise that in fact it has not quite worked out the way we hoped it would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EPerhaps I can just ask the House to think about the work of the censors, the Internal Affairs people, and the police\u2014the people who have to work with this child pornography. I wonder how often anyone ever looks at those people and asks how it is affecting them. Do they, in fact, get some sort of opportunity to do something about whatever goes into their heads? I am very concerned that those people are working with, living with, and looking at extremely abusive portrayals. I am really quite concerned as to what that does to them over a long period of time. Certainly, and the point has been properly made by my colleague Sandra Goudie, it can desensitise people to pornography.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThat is something we should be concerned about, because I cannot for the life of me imagine why anyone would want to be the Chief Censor\u2014unless they could not get another job!\u2014the Deputy Chief Censor, or any other position to do with this issue, unless they in fact have a passion towards stopping the sort of pornography we are talking about. I do not know if that is true in the case of the current incumbents, but I am sure it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn terms of the penalties and of what happens to the people who trade in pornography, I say that the penalties are clearly not enough; otherwise, people would not keep on doing it. Clearly, there has not been a deterrent effect; otherwise, it would stop overnight. The trade is not going to stop until people involved in it can see that the chances of getting caught are really, really high\u2014just as high as speeding, not paying taxes on time, or those sorts of things. The penalty has to be really high; it has to be public; and it has to stick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt really concerns me that certainly the Australian experiences, and the American experiences, tend to suggest that the people who trade in child pornography are from all sectors of the community\u2014the fact that they might swear has nothing to do with it, because I am sure they do not\u2014from one end of the spectrum to the other. I really believe there is more likely to be concern because of people\u2019s ease of access to those sites. The concern is about the mentality of people who think they can enjoy\u2014if there can be such a word in relation to this sort of perversion\u2014looking at a child being abused. How could anyone do that? Of course, we are talking about people who are often control freaks, people who have very secret lives, and people who are in positions of power. Those are the sorts of people who are likely not to get prosecuted, because they are often a lot cleverer than they should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u00225536c883b5664e358be1e9a573ba0700\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225536c883b5664e358be1e9a573ba0700\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take the opportunity to stand alongside my colleagues in support of the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill. In doing so, I suppose I acknowledge the most important reforms that the bill provides against the alarming growth in the trade of child pornography via the Internet. I now have some confidence that for those of us who have computers at home and who have children there are some protections against, in particular, those who distribute child pornography, in the proposed prison sentences the bill provides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003ETo that end, I also acknowledge the chairperson of the Government Administration Committee for steering its members to the conclusion of this bill. Finally, I say that I support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00224d88fe438e114bd78605107e2d0fc7d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d88fe438e114bd78605107e2d0fc7d4\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E National members are pleased to support the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Amendment Bill, because our children are our future, and it is our job to protect and support them as they grow in order to ensure that they become well-adjusted, contributing adults in our many communities. Our children should not be subjected to the abuse that produces child pornography, or vulnerable to the availability of child pornography. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIt is a tragedy that approximately 20 percent of those viewing child pornography are aged between 14 and 18 years of age, and these statistics came from the Department of Internal Affairs. End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography, Child Sex Tourism and Trafficking in Children for Sexual Purposes (ECPAT New Zealand) is also very concerned about those statistics, and it gave a substantial submission to the bill. While supporting much of the bill, ECPAT New Zealand was concerned that home detention should not have a presumption in favour of the offender. In my view, home detention is the soft option. If people do the crime, then they should do the time. In fact, I believe that home detention should be scrapped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EHowever, the strengthening of the penalties in this bill is welcomed. One can only hope that they are enough to stem the tide of an activity that we can only guess at the scale or size of. We have to recognise the changes in technology that provide for the ready availability of pornography throughout the world, and recent advances in mobile phones add to the problems\u2014even more so when mobile phones are becoming the norm not just for teenagers but also for more and more primary school children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ETelevision advertising is using children acting as adults to sell this new technology, and that means the task of protection is even more problematic. My understanding is that further legislation is to be introduced to address the issue of covert filming, and that has been exacerbated by the continual advancement of mobile phone technology. If child pornography has risen fifteenfold since 1988, with the antiquated technology of those times, it does not take much to guess that accessibility is now likely to be barely controllable, and that was illustrated by Stephen Franks. So I wonder if there has been any study on whether there is any correlation between the advancement of technology and the increase in child abuse. I ask the question, because there is a strong link between viewers of child pornography and child abusers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EMy learned colleague Richard Worth expounded on US statistics. Of the 2,000 men arrested in the US for possessing child pornography, 35 percent were also child abusers. So with greater accessibility\u2014members should do the maths. I have no problem with labelling publications with an age restriction, and while parents are the first line of defence, with this bill we are making sure that we further protect our children and that we adopt a range of methods by which we do that. We also deal to the perpetrators of crime against our children by increasing the penalties in this bill, and I applaud that. We just have to make sure that we use those penalties and we get into more enforcement. But I have no doubt that given the fine line between the protection of our children and young folk from becoming victims of pornography, and the right to freedom of expression, the definition of \u201Cobjectionable\u201D, as outlined in clause 4, will be tested in the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EAmendments to address concerns for a number of matters were lost. I have no doubt that they, too, will be tested in the courts in due course, particularly in relation to freedom of speech. Censorship is a reasonable and justified limitation on the freedom of expression, when it aims to protect children and young people from any harm inflicted by the publication and display of child pornography. However, censorship of any kind is a limitation on the right to freedom of speech. While the bill correctly attempts to address the pervasive problem of child pornography, the test established in clause 4 is both broad enough and vague enough to encompass more than just child pornography. The definition of \u201Coffensive language\u201D encompasses a range of possible usages. Offensive language could also include insulting language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ECensorship on the basis that a publication is insulting to a person, or group of persons, is very broad indeed. While the bill actively aims to strike the right balance between protection and freedom of expression, it is questionable whether that has been achieved. It just so happens that tonight was the occasion of an excellent presentation by the New Zealand Film Commission. Creative genius, with which New Zealand is greatly blessed, does, I am sure, value freedom of expression. New Zealand is a pluralistic and democratic society, and as mentioned, the freedom to express opinions and ideas is central to the conception in such a society. I shall read members an extract from Handyside v United Kingdom where the European Court of Human Rights clearly stated: \u201CFreedom of expression constitutes one of the essential foundations of such a society, one of the basic conditions for its progress and for the development of every man. Subject to\u201D\u2014some of its articles\u2014\u201Cit is applicable not only to \u2018information\u2019 or \u2018ideas\u2019 that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of difference, but also to those that offend, shock, or disturb the State or any sector of the population.\u201D That underscores and reinforces the concerns of Stephen Franks. The European Court stated further: \u201CSuch are the demands of that pluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness, without which there is no democratic society.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ESo this bill has some very serious unintended consequences and that means, amongst other things, that \u201Cevery formality, condition, restriction or penalty imposed in this sphere must be proportionate to the legitimate aim pursued.\u201D I reiterate that I can see that there will be recourse to the courts to test some of the definitions that are evidenced in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe second amendment that was proposed was designed to protect freedom of speech. These are the amendments put forward last night that were overturned. It was stated that contentious propositions are often highly offensive to the public in general. The amendment makes it plain that it is the language that must be offensive, not the argument. As I have just read, it is ideas that challenge us and help to shape and direct our societies over time. It would be a tragedy, indeed, to see any restriction on our freedom of speech or freedom of expression. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EOne amendment in particular that I would like to read is the fourth amendment. It is designed to ensure that the censor cannot use these amendments to go back and reinstate the disgraceful decision on the Living Word video, by claiming that it would upset teenagers who are wondering whether they are gay. I am concerned about the retrospectivity of the particular clause that gives the censor the unbridled power to do that. That should be a major concern to us all, and I cannot understand why that retrospectivity was continued in the bill. I did ask the Minister to take a call to give an explanation, but it was not forthcoming. So there is a concern around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThere was an amendment designed to ensure that freedom of speech for ordinary people is not put at risk in the hands of a censor with his or her own political or social agenda, claiming to protect a small, disturbed, overly sensitive group\u2014for example, those raised with rigid religious views, or indeed, minority groups such as the homosexual community. This concern has been expressed, and while we are supporting the bill and its intention, which I am sure everybody commends, there are some serious concerns. I have no doubt that those concerns will be tested over time in the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00220dda9f2264da48329bc98df2d8f1273b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dda9f2264da48329bc98df2d8f1273b\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E With the exception of the ACT party at the fringes of politics, all parties in this Parliament will be supporting this bill receiving its third reading tonight. There have been many speakers from across the political divide, which shows that we can come together on important matters like this. The bill increases penalties tenfold, improves the abilities of the Department of Internal Affairs to complete its investigations\u2014I note that it has an almost 100 percent success record\u2014and also moves the law in this area into the 21st century, particularly around issues concerning the Internet, where most images of children are, unfortunately, traded very cheaply and very quickly. The law we currently have is from 1993. Mr Goff\u2019s law brings that up to 2005 and I am pleased to support the comments that have been made by every party in Parliament, with the exception of ACT, which for some reason has not stood with the consensus on this matter and has put itself at a very peculiar fringe of New Zealand politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255efd7fba55c4ec384c479d6dda39bde\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Films, Videos and Publications Classification Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 7; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222dcfe44498ef4e7ab805378a51bca4df\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b113241707f442490394594c9a0deb1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000624\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 15 February.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f30b77dfcc7043dabc3f80cff89564a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f30b77dfcc7043dabc3f80cff89564a5\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. You will recall that the last time the Committee was to consider this particular bill, I raised the issue of getting a translation of the Minister\u2019s own Supplementary Order Paper tabled yesterday, which is to include a new recital (10A) in the M\u0101ori text of the preamble to the bill. The Minister in the chair on that evening said that a paper would be made available today to indicate exactly how all of this works. No such paper has been forthcoming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022798b1890ddb3431f9edc2a6aa8bcc41a\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes it has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cae2fc4dfa5420eb994a891586da69b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It has certainly not been sent to my office, which would seem to be a major oversight on the part of the Minister. Rather, instead, we have on the Table of the House a proposed amendment to the Supplementary Order Paper, also in the name of the Hon Margaret Wilson, which asks the Committee to consider inserting in the proposed new recital (10A) in her Supplementary Order Paper, after the word \u201CHurae\u201D, the expression \u201C2002\u201D. Now that leaves the Committee no clearer at all about what the situation is. I think it is quite disrespectful of the Minister to expect us to continue at the present time, and I move that the Committee defer this bill until the matter is cleared up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022101b75afe45a422bb742ec04183c3771\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I gave an undertaking, and I regret that the member, for whatever reason, has not located the document. It was circulated, both electronically, and manually in hard copy, to every member\u2019s office close to midday today. I gave an undertaking, and I honoured it. I have a hard copy of the paper, which the member is welcome to. I do regret that he has not located it for whatever reason, but I had it sent both by messenger and electronically. To the best of my knowledge every member should have received it, and I see at least one of the member\u2019s colleagues nodding that she has received it. So I cannot explain why the member has not got it, but I certainly did circulate the document that I am holding in my hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a9306a3b474fff8a9fb2731a2c143d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I probably have not received that for the same reason that I did not receive an invitation to the Labour Party fest, known as the Hui Taumata, to take place the week after next. It seems to be a particular style of the current Minister in charge of Treaty Negotiations; perhaps that is at play. None the less, I do not think the matter is at all clear. I think perhaps the Minister should take a few minutes before we begin the debate to explain what is in his document. Because although members may well have been circulated, quite clearly one member was left off the circulation list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e40cf57e12a449e874bf4e17d7cf226\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Brownlee. I undertook last night to have the matter looked into and some action taken. The Minister has done that. The member is welcome to a copy of the letter that was circulated\u2014I see there is one there for him. The Minister is very happy to give any explanations that may be needed as we get into the debate. I do not propose to take the matter any further. I think it has been handled well. We are now on the Ng\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill, and the question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd770ec64b24b298cf361f3ebc6d2d1\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e315ffbdd1c4129af3c12d027c3b3ac\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The previous matter was not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ecc2f7891d548c491a0d2ef5cd1a22c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not going back over that. My point of order relates to the proposed amendments by way of a Supplementary Order Paper in the name of Pita Paraone. These are interesting proposals, and I think quite serious ones. For those who are unaware of the serious nature of this, essentially if this bill were to pass in its current form, then the House would, for the second time this session, be in a position of creating either new hap\u016B or iwi by statute, something that is quite new and inappropriate. I therefore seek leave to move a motion for this bill to be sent back to the select committee in order that this particular matter might be better considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5ae91ccb15e404c9fe0f8518600c50c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5ae91ccb15e404c9fe0f8518600c50c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The matters raised by Mr Brownlee could have been dealt with when we moved through the debate on the bill. They relate to Part 2. The Committee has no power to grant leave to refer anything back to a select committee. That is a matter for the House. So we will proceed with the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002237eba57a7f68479eb2a8fedf48a89b5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237eba57a7f68479eb2a8fedf48a89b5d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This is a proper point of order\u2014I am asking for your advice here. If we were to recall the Speaker, I assume that the House would then be in session and such leave could be sought and granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022438f782e51104587b0a435c6c30edf76\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. If the member does that, then that matter could be put to the House and dealt with by the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022428d0754c6584085b36bc006a5306126\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022428d0754c6584085b36bc006a5306126\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Could I speak to that point of order before the member does that, because I may be able to help. Far from this bill creating hap\u016B, I think when we get the opportunity to have a sensible debate on what I think is a genuinely intended, but I would suggest an erroneous, Supplementary Order Paper from the member, that will be a matter for fair debate. But far from it being the case that this bill creates the hap\u016B, they actually exist in the Te Runanga o Ngati Awa Act. It is my understanding that they exist already in that Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcc1beb519c845c4bd76da6352df9eab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcc1beb519c845c4bd76da6352df9eab\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First): \u003C/span\u003EThe Minister referred to an earlier regulation, and I think that perhaps he may have been misadvised. Because that earlier regulation in no way refers to the word \u201Chap\u016B\u201D. It refers to divisions or specific sections. But it does not refer to the word \u201Chap\u016B\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b9add0f0fe64575ad3364edf133892d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: These are debatable matters, which we could have reached when we went through the bill, and very likely all members could have been satisfied. But I am in members\u2019 hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228a8bc2a86c874539b7294e3f4489d3f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a8bc2a86c874539b7294e3f4489d3f2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I think this is a more serious matter than perhaps your understanding of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290d8476cab6a4f648600e1bd6bd3520b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: All matters are serious in this Chamber, and this one probably more so than most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d9de2b743e4d839809a33ae3c4109a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e29c947776494491f8eef1dd6f378c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is why I am hearing from the member with a view to trying to accommodate the member\u2019s wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247444705ebf5409fa1f6eee173de0428\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I want to give some explanation because I do not want to sound trite in this. But you could perhaps appreciate the situation where this bill has had a haphazard approach to it from the Minister. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee was given a very short time to consider an extensive Supplementary Order Paper that was put on the table last year, early in October. As you know, the House concluded its business in December. That Supplementary Order Paper has found its way into this bill. There was quite a bit of pressure in the select committee process to get it there. The desire of the Committee, I am sure, is that all parties would want to support a settlement bill. But matters like this are not inconsiderable. It is about the mandating opportunities that the iwi concerned has. And I have already expressed some severe reservations about that process. But here we have, as Mr Pita Paraone has just made clear, a bill that creates a new, if one likes, designation for a group within the Ng\u0101ti Awa group\u2014a hap\u016B, which is a much bigger status than a group that has the affiliations that Mr Paraone just spoke of. I do want to see this taken through and the House given the opportunity to send it back to the select committee for, perhaps, another week\u2019s work. Accordingly, I move that the Speaker be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00221ed0b4d7bbbf4a9d9420762f28c0ccfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ed0b4d7bbbf4a9d9420762f28c0ccfb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am afraid that I cannot resolve the matter for the member. We have commenced the Committee stage of the Ng\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill. If the member wishes to pursue the matter of whether the bill should be withdrawn or referred back to a select committee, then that is a matter for the Speaker. If the member wants that process to commence, it is over to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225756ba7459bf4f60826f4b461905b171\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225756ba7459bf4f60826f4b461905b171\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Speaker be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00229b4b319e878a4abb996e1a16d373f777\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b4b319e878a4abb996e1a16d373f777\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I take it that the member has moved that the Committee reports progress?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ce39d798c74f72ae0cb5879722adb2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: If that is the correct procedure, I am indeed moving to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282fda29171be4ffab193ef31beaf4298\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: The member moved that we recall the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209b3c8fdfd6b42fea326f809f8b5f51d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. Reporting progress is something a Government does when it wants to suspend a bill. If we report progress we will not be able to get to the bill again today. I just want to recall the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aae57f31c5fb4795a6048e05b2ff975e\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002229f7bbff0cb24a4f9944b771c240d24e\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdde88e8cc6e458a97979921e15a3d2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdde88e8cc6e458a97979921e15a3d2b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, on the motion of Gerry Brownlee you have been recalled to facilitate, or otherwise, a request he will put to you. This matter arose at the commencement of debate on the Ng\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill. No debate has been taken directly on any of the questions. We have been dealing with the matter that Mr Brownlee raised. I leave it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222e26b554f5694330ad33624d1a50970e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e26b554f5694330ad33624d1a50970e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure the desire of the House overall is to see a bill such as this pass with a fair degree of unanimity of the whole Parliament. That is the intention with which we approach this particular matter. However, there are a couple of matters that are of concern. The first one has to do with the Supplementary Order Paper put on the Table yesterday by the Minister. We discussed the matter last night, and an undertaking was given to circulate today material relating to that Supplementary Order Paper. I understand that it was circulated to some members but, most certainly, it was not circulated to me\u2014and I was the member who raised the matter. That may be of no account in the general scheme of things, but it calls into question the reasons for the Minister\u2019s office making such an obvious error. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ELeaving that aside, we now have the issue of the Supplementary Order Paper tabled by Mr Pita Paraone. That Supplementary Order Paper calls into question the appropriateness of a settlement bill that will create two new hap\u016B through legal statute. I would have thought it quite obvious that if a group has hap\u016B status it is granted by Ng\u0101ti Awa, not by this Parliament\u2014recognised, of course, in a settlement bill if Ng\u0101ti Awa so wish, but not created as a hap\u016B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIf we look at the whole process of this bill, we will see that last October a very substantial Supplementary Order Paper was dropped on the Table by the Minister, sent to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and in a very short time completely incorporated into this bill. The concern there is not only the speed and haste of that but also the fact that we are having to take up members\u2019 days to pass a Ng\u0101ti Awa r\u016Bnanga bill\u2014a bill, we are told by the Leader of the House, that has to be passed separately from the claims bill. The claims bill itself sets up legal entities for the receipt of claims moneys in relation to the three claims, or sub-claims, that were dealt with in the October Supplementary Order Paper. It is only appropriate that the House consider whether it was appropriate for the Minister to handle this matter in that way. A process of handling settlement bills has been established, and to have that process undone so unilaterally seems to me to be quite inappropriate. So I am moving that this House recommit this bill back to the select committee for a period of 2 weeks for full consideration to be given to Mr Paraone\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper and the consequences of passing a settlement bill that establishes r\u016Bnanga authorities where, in every other case, that has been done quite separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002269d1d8de41eb47cbabc5962c8c48b55d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269d1d8de41eb47cbabc5962c8c48b55d\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to seek leave. He cannot \u201Cmove\u201D; he needs to seek leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224de7b429fae645a9b8c68e90daba6653\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to so move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002270d987f9e4e84225a71a3853a5c780bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270d987f9e4e84225a71a3853a5c780bb\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E To address the matters the member raised, in order: firstly, last evening I gave an undertaking as the Minister in the chair to circulate physical information to explain a Supplementary Order Paper. I did that. The document was reproduced in my office and distributed via the parliamentary messengers. I note that one of the member\u2019s own colleagues handed him a copy\u2014not a Labour member, a National member\u2014during the course of the earlier debate in the House. The member implied that he was left out, or for some other reason did not receive a copy. It is equally possible that the member simply did not clear his mail, or that his staff failed to do so. Whatever the explanation, I think he does himself and the House a disservice by the comment that he made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3997bf5799842a0af0c4fd5e13eacd9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be so pompous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade3923b17144c91ab3bb7fa4904c5bd\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is speaking to the point of order. There will be silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238bd84300bed497a87805b825443ec30\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: He should stick to it then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239be6344039741288dbc5aae311fa836\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was ruling on that. I ask Mr Brownlee to please stand and withdraw that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517e49cfd322495ab51ae4efdc23a69e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw the remark. I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7491b254cde4e97b8e4b5c8dbb8a4bc\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we are in the middle of a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6ccd46b6e95493c93f0d970ee65fecd\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Secondly, the matter the member raised beyond that is a matter for debate. Mr Paraone, quite legitimately, introduced it into the debate by way of Supplementary Order Paper, but it is a matter for debate. I repeat what I said to the Committee before you were recalled, Madam Speaker: the newly created urban hap\u016B were established by Parliament on the advice, and with the full agreement, of Ng\u0101ti Awa in the Te Runanga o Ngati Awa Act. The member suggested that somehow that is a new creation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI would also like to assist the member, because he made what I think is a very pertinent comment in his previous contribution: that this matter is ultimately one for Ng\u0101ti Awa. I have a communication, dated today, sent directly to me on behalf of Ng\u0101ti Awa in the name of Professor Hirini Mead, the chairman of Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Awa. He said that Ng\u0101ti Awa: \u201C\u2026 has adopted a more open and inclusive attitude towards the establishment of hap\u016B. More importantly, how Ng\u0101ti Awa determines its internal structures is a matter for it to decide. There is no one classical iwi model to follow.\u201D Professor Mead made that comment in support of the proposal in this legislation, because it constitutes part of a carefully negotiated settlement. We are being asked to respect the will of Ng\u0101ti Awa. That is what is being put in front of Parliament, and it is the will of Ng\u0101ti Awa. I agree with the member that it is for Ng\u0101ti Awa to decide. They have decided. Now the question is whether that member, and all members, will respect their wish and the negotiation that has been concluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022d03c65d96070438a84462caacde18d75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d03c65d96070438a84462caacde18d75\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard the two speakers and I am ready to proceed. The Speaker is recalled under Standing Order 178 to give a ruling on a matter of procedure. Whether or not a note was circulated is not a matter of order on which the Speaker can rule. The member has correctly sought leave that the bill be returned to a select committee. It is his right to do that. I am now putting that leave matter to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228772325366c946b285edf4ef4eeb2ee4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That is not the leave matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224624463d90124cafbe19f7baa3921d1f\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has sought leave\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229077f29abb944b9fb2937953b45b29d9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Might I say what it was? I sought leave to move a motion to send it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224746917d25004d45b8b76bfd778b97d4\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, the member has sought leave to move a motion. That is exactly what I said. I am putting that leave now. Is there any objection for the matter to be put as Mr Brownlee asked? There is. That is the end of the matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad1f3d7b9a7749c3b6aa378208723b9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad1f3d7b9a7749c3b6aa378208723b9d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I make the point that in the contribution you listened to from Mr Burton, you allowed no point of order to be raised but provided him with an opportunity to engage in the sort of debate that should have taken place had the motion been moved. I think that from that point of view, the disservice to the Opposition is quite notable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0dcccdc13aa43fdb3922c877dcb285b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0dcccdc13aa43fdb3922c877dcb285b\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Brownlee that he was heard in silence and put his point. Mr Burton was certainly entitled to be heard in silence. That is the end of the matter. That is my ruling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4e57a8a2875413caec159fd6ff04b6a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000677\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ace788709dbb48acacbf66348c766f7a\u0022\u003EPreamble\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223b5895e6a33849cc9115295ad55f4a3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b5895e6a33849cc9115295ad55f4a3e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very loathe to vote in favour of this preamble, simply because we still do not know exactly what is in it. Despite repeated requests last evening\u2014and, indeed, just now\u2014for a simple translation of no more than seven lines, the request has been denied. [Interruption] The Minister says: \u201CRubbish! We have circulated a paper.\u201D I ask the Minister whether there is a full translation in that paper. I think that this Committee is entitled to that. I am not surprised that we are dealing with this bill in such a messy way. Not only does it have the fingerprints of Margaret Wilson all over it but it has the footprints of Parekura Horomia all over it, as well. He is a Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs who is much more interested in using his ministry to promote the best interests of the Labour Party than he is in M\u0101ori interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bec23c33d7f48e997948338d35a7c57\u0022\u003EJohn Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: Get on with the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c8f680a1ae0416f927c83eee6e331af\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Tamihere, the man who, as we all know, has an enormous amount of interest in things M\u0101ori, and must be wondering today why on earth he mucked around with a community trust when he could have set up a w\u0101nanga\u2014a much more profitable enterprise than the one he was involved in\u2014is telling me to get on with the bill. We are getting on with the bill. We are talking about the preamble, the explanation, at the beginning of the bill. I simply say to Mr Tamihere and Mr Horomia that one of the treaty partners would like to know what is in this bill. I cannot see the problem with having our translator, who is with us this evening, stand up and translate this piece of paper. If the Minister had allowed that to happen last night, an awful lot of mucking around this evening would not have happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe are asked to speak about this preamble, but it is difficult when we cannot be absolutely sure what is in it. I will respond briefly to the suggestion from the Minister that we were behaving in a disrespectful manner to Ng\u0101ti Awa. That is quite untrue. Personal attacks have always been a hiding place for the guilty\u2014they personally attack the people who have questions about the procedures being used. This process has not been tidy. This is the only settlement bill that Labour has done on its own, without National holding its hand, in 5 years, and it has to be a messy process like this. The Government is creating new hap\u016B here and there by a stroke of the legislative pen, and throwing in an extra three or four claims here and there to boost the numbers, without reference to a full select committee process. [Interruption] I ask Mr Okeroa whether he calls 2 months at the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee a full process, when the committee very seldom works for more than 2 hours once a week. That is hardly a full process. Without that translation, National will have some difficulty in voting for this preamble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e9b3e66ba9b494298abc619c21e9b39\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: You were on the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280e7698ffc4b46b0933f47d17689a334\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That member is right, I was on the committee\u2014and guess what? This Supplementary Order Paper did not hit the floor of the Chamber until yesterday. The select committee process totalled 6 months, and we had 2 months on a special Supplementary Order Paper from the Minister, and then another one was laid on the Table yesterday. Further, just to make it all look really shambolic, an amendment to yesterday\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper was tabled today. All we want is a simple translation of seven lines. What is wrong with the Labour Party? Why does it not want us to know what that is all about? I suspect that the piece of text that Margaret Wilson wants to put into the bill is interminably boring, but, somehow, we cannot know what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOnce again I ask the Minister to allow the translator to take the microphone and give us a translation in order that this preamble debate may progress without the sort of interruption that those on that side of the Chamber have forced on the Committee since we commenced last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I have in front of me Supplementary Order Paper 327. Its salient point is a provision that states: \u201CI te rangi tuawaru o te marama o Hurae ka whakaretangia e te Karauna me Ng\u0101ti Awa he Whakaaetanga o Nga Whakataunga. Ka tatu i te Karauna me Ng\u0101ti Awa taua Whakaaetanga o nga Whakataunga i te 27 o nga ra o Maehe 2003, e whakatatu ana i nga take katoa e tika ana kia whakatauria tuturutia te katoa o nga kereme o nehe o te iwi o Ng\u0101ti Awa.\u201D I apologise for my stilted pronunciation of that. I simply ask that we now have a translation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022035a84ae422f4400b25ef2431c7e2d3d\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek a translation of those comments by Mr Brownlee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022181e4c1b051047b4ad6c8cf64a786679\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am not giving any direction here, or denying the member, but it appears to me that Mr Brownlee read out, from the Supplementary Order Paper, recital (10A) of the M\u0101ori text, and a translation has been provided to all members here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b9f56b1236748508d80bce3a3650093\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eb00fb79aa34413b3b045543a3cfa26\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I am just pondering a few things here, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218f4caba07a94cf1ab303ab6c3068a14\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: If the Labour senior whip is giving a message, I cannot hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee7121fd4e824e5ebb1ae8c4d7154c04\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am dealing with a point of order, and unless members want fewer people in the Chamber, they will keep quiet. Did Mr Power want to assist?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3f24f85885941bbb22dce0d3bc7944a\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to assist if I can, Mr Chairperson. Page 33 of Speakers\u2019 Rulings covers the use of the M\u0101ori language both in the House and in the Committee of the whole House. It seems to me that the third sentence of Speaker\u2019s ruling 33/3: \u201CInterpretation into English is for the benefit of members who do not understand M\u0101ori \u2026\u201D is particularly appropriate. Now that Mr Brownlee has made a contribution\u2014and whether the contribution was read or not read is something the Speakers\u2019 rulings do not seem to distinguish between\u2014we seek, in accordance with Speaker\u2019s ruling 33/3, that translation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b02557d69b4809b7e7ca6c24e1ce49\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The member gave most of a point of order in M\u0101ori, and the translation for that is in fact in the bill, as members would have found when they read it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afaadd71a5a445e5b655e2b10a7ec197\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022696443003daf4b67ac0b933bd5c6efe3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc156127a05747f7808e0e76bd26a0fa\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Where?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae47fbdd7262430a9e7e08c9a7519fe2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: On page 22.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d853631a30418eb1e22e18a6fcfaf4\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It can\u2019t be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe89d20ac731469c8cb3292e5313a0b5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am just making an observation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8c3c445597f4bc4ad5313adf159f795\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not. You have been misinformed. If it was in the bill the Minister would not have circulated the letter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258281b092647447fa77922cce5c93f73\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: If members had allowed things to move on a little, this matter would have been tabled. The M\u0101ori version of recital (10A) is in fact translated in the bill on page 22 under \u201Crecital\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e62fe628c34792969a67fef0133967\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. If you look at recital (10A) as per Supplementary Order Paper 327, I ask you to show me where those words are on \u201C( \u2026 page 7)\u201D , as the Supplementary Order Paper states. They are not on page 7. There is no translation in the explanatory note. In the rest of this bill, the preamble is first in M\u0101ori, and then it is translated into English. But there is no (10A )in the M\u0101ori version, and there is no (10A) on page 22. The recital (10A) is being proposed by Supplementary Order Paper 327, and that M\u0101ori insertion has no English translation. As a result, the Minister circulated a letter, apparently, before midday. The reason why Mr Brownlee was forced to read (10A) in the Chamber was so that the translator would then give us the English version, so that, as per Speaker\u2019s ruling 34/5, a translation appears in Hansard. I would ask you to consider that recital (10A) does not appear in the M\u0101ori version\u2014it is being inserted without an English translation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225169815c6de14d09a971e70ed8fe3352\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: On the back of the Supplementary Order Paper it states quite clearly that that M\u0101ori version is a \u201Ctranslation of recital 12 of the English text:\u201D, which is on page 22. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235be343188c34961a4bf84e7950df429\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: So why would they have different numbers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2b9855ecbb47b1a5e8decdb1cfb830\u0022\u003EJohn Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. On page 22 of the commentary on the bill it is quite clear\u2014in terms of the understanding of M\u0101ori members\u2014that from recitals (10) through to (12) inclusive the matters raised in recital (10A) are fully interpreted in English. Having said that, for the benefit of the Committee right now I am willing to express in actual detail exactly what Mr Gerry Brownlee read out in M\u0101ori, to put the matter at an end\u2014notwithstanding Speakers\u2019 rulings 33/2 through to 33/7 in terms of the M\u0101ori language. So I am prepared, with your permission, Mr Chairperson, to interpret exactly what the member Gerry Brownlee read out in terms of (10A), in order to place the matter at an end, and I would be grateful for your direction in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222faf3981ad6c456385bfe2480e83946a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa0cbfff986412b8df52959f312aa5e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any further help. The member has spoken M\u0101ori and now seeks a translation. I am going to ask the honourable John Tamihere to translate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f848a13b6d4ecf9ef241f0c5635a3c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc8bf8cb2b1c42bcaf99bf12959e1271\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022367c322da86d42de82253fbc80332337\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairperson, you have a translator here. You cannot insult us like that. You have a proper translator here. I do not want to have my words translated by the Government\u2014I am in opposition to them. That is a political insult, and the Committee should not be offering it to anybody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cfce2841ffd4766b8899d3a1c07f222\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Which is the insult?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fbec9ddb9ed4a5487fb869e4637184f\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I find it insulting that I can stand in the Chamber and speak in M\u0101ori, and then Mr Tamihere is asked to translate what I have said\u2014while the taxpayer is paying a translator to sit in on proceedings. Now, if it were not a reasonable call for people to have their speeches accurately translated by someone fluent in te reo M\u0101ori, then we would simply, right at the start of this debate and at the beginning of the last Parliament, have said: \u201CNo, we will not have a translator present. We will simply ask someone in the Chamber to interpret what was said\u201D. I cannot imagine that Mr Horomia, as a Minister, would be happy asking Mrs te Heuheu to translate his regular speeches in M\u0101ori to this House. I think it is very, very strange that I get my speech, apparently, translated by John Tamihere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea98f900b4a4cf6a830d00a58a33050\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: It is not strange. I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s rulings 34/1 and 34/2. I can make that decision. I can ask anyone in whom I have confidence to interpret, irrespective of whether there is an interpreter in the Chamber. It is a bonus that we have one. What is more, Mr Tamihere has made the offer, which I am going to accept. If the member wants to take the matter further after that, we will deal with that then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002213bbbbea03cc496cb46247d77efbbbc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213bbbbea03cc496cb46247d77efbbbc3\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259a543a4f86440a5b1ac99f87b2ec1f0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Is the point of order relevant? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb3dc805edd147798ef3bf56a342f495\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I did wish to speak to the point of order, before you ruled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224394d76d49d64ca78fbd5986c9d87246\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I will accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283e47dec1e01447780b35c91917135a2\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Although those two rulings confirm that authority in the Chair, I do suggest that even in the way they are framed they assume that the translation is non-contentious, or they assume that it is given in circumstances where there is no reason for someone to raise a question about whether the translation might not generate confidence in the House. I am perfectly happy to accept that the Minister\u2019s offer was made in good faith, and that he would, undoubtedly, simply read the English that Mr Burton has already provided to us\u2014[Interruption]\u2014sorry, the former Minister. But in a situation where we are trying to establish a principle, it would be seen as very odd not to use the official translator. When the official translator is available, it is almost inexplicable that the official translator would not be used for that purpose. I venture to suggest that those two rulings would have been given in relation to a circumstance where there would have been a delay or some other problem associated with using the official translator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022404715aaf58c49e688296b46c2870ed6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022404715aaf58c49e688296b46c2870ed6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282457a0aa09a440d997206ef3bb49fb7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I really do not need any further assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d60ed2e923cb4332970ce536e7da6421\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I rarely raise a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022461904cf6cac4cd3bced44afa9aacb59\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. I call the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb6cad4fd2be4f888c87d040b36fe13a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure whether there are Speakers\u2019 rulings on the situation, which appears to me to be one whereby a member has stood up and made a speech, and now we are seeking to have an interpretation of that speech because the member does not know what he said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00221dcb43b5ee624e0885b1fb161440d7bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dcb43b5ee624e0885b1fb161440d7bc\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8285e182caa4354ae7340e17bd28c25\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No. Mr Brownlee has asked for what he said to be interpreted. I have had an offer from Mr Tamihere to do that, and I have accepted that offer. In any case, common sense would say that what the member said is clearly set out in English in the bill itself. Reference to that is on the back of Supplementary Order Paper 327. If the members who are raising this issue had bothered to trace it through, they would have seen that. It may be convoluted, but it is in the bill. [Interruption] I am still talking, albeit I am sitting down. The translation that is on the paper that was sent around was made by M\u0101ori translators licensed via the M\u0101ori Language Commission, etc. I think we are getting a bit silly here. Either members want to hear a translation, which I am prepared to accept\u2014in fact, I am calling the Hon John Tamihere to please translate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2d6e5231d844bfe97128b81bff6a52b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2d6e5231d844bfe97128b81bff6a52b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Because you have ruled, this is now a procedural matter. I move, That the Speaker be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to, and House resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5babefbef42490abbf9730e98b7e07b\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee32558e95c411c96f7bbbfb0d9bb3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee32558e95c411c96f7bbbfb0d9bb3a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, at the request of Mr Brownlee you have been recalled to the Chamber to rule on a matter that I have dealt with in the Committee. As part of a point of order raised by Mr Brownlee he spoke what we have referred to as recital (10A). He gave a very good rendition of that recital as it is, in M\u0101ori, and then requested that it be translated. The Hon John Tamihere offered to translate. I have confidence that he is able to do that, and I have asked him to translate it. But, besides that, the matter that Mr Brownlee has presented the Committee with is, in fact, translated in the bill itself, and there is a translation on a paper circulated by the Minister, which is actually a certified copy\u2014that is, the English version of the M\u0101ori. Mr Brownlee sought to recall you to deal with the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022649d426d9e73484b973cf5e5b8fea5cf\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I have heard the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd059f22ae149e3bc6d09b68110e4f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd059f22ae149e3bc6d09b68110e4f8\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The difficulty that we are in is because of Supplementary Order Paper 327 put on the Table by the Hon Margaret Wilson, which asks the House to consider placing a new recital (10A) in the preamble to the bill. There is also a proposed amendment to that Supplementary Order Paper on the Table, in the name of the Hon Margaret Wilson to insert a further expression in the bill, that expression being \u201C2002\u201D. The bill itself refers to activities that took place in 2003. The question is further made complex by the fact that the M\u0101ori text is to be numbered (10A) and we are told that the translation for that is (12) in the English version. The question that comes to mind is that if those recitals are translated one by one, why do the numbers get out of order? We are just keen to understand that what is written in the letter that was circulated today is what is in the bill. That is not unreasonable, and given that the insertion is going in because of a mistake and there is a mistake in the insertion itself, I think it not unreasonable that we ask for the translation, extraordinarily of just seven lines of text. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI refer you in the matter of interpretation to Speaker\u2019s rulings 34/1 and 34/2, because although Mr Tamihere has generously volunteered to interpret my contribution to the Committee, he has done so while the Committee has its own interpreter here. You will see that Speaker\u2019s ruling 34/3 states: \u201CThe interpreter is responsible to the Speaker (in committee, the chairperson). If members do not like the way the interpreter is rendering their speeches into English, they are at liberty to give their own interpretation. Members do not \u2018own\u2019 the interpreter\u2019s contribution; it is controlled by the Speaker on behalf of the House. Members can seek to correct the subsequent Hansard translation in the normal way.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI will not have access to Mr Tamihere\u2019s translation in Hansard before it is published, so the question arises of why we have an interpreter in the House responsible to the Speaker, where members are able to reasonably consider how well that interpretation has been given, if we are to have the Chairperson of the Committee determine that we will not use the interpreter provided to the House. Rather, the Chairperson has said we will use a member in political opposition to the person who has spoken to interpret that member\u2019s words, thereby denying the member who has spoken in M\u0101ori the opportunity to check that the Hansard record is correct or to take issue with any aspect of the interpretation that a political opponent may like to put upon the originally stated words. In other words, the situation would be a little like Parekura Horomia, as Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, coming to the House to make a ministerial statement, choosing to do so in his chosen language, te reo M\u0101ori, someone on the Opposition side of the House being asked to interpret what he has said, and the House leaving him with no opportunity to question whether that interpretation was totally accurate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI would like your view on whether, if we proceed with this particular course of action, we will create a new Speaker\u2019s ruling that will do away with Speaker\u2019s ruling 34/3, which was given to the House in 1999, at about the time the interpreter\u2019s services were required in the House on each and every sitting day. So the real question is why my rights as a member to have my speech interpreted by the official interpreter are being usurped in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022062af62fddb54bf98a13791381715fff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022062af62fddb54bf98a13791381715fff\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am ready to rule on the point of order. I heard the debate. There are three things that I want to say. It is the Chairperson\u2019s absolute right to call on a member to interpret. He or she is perfectly entitled to do that, and a member\u2019s word in the House is to be taken. But the most important thing about this matter is that there is no translator in the House. There is an interpreter. The interpreter is here to interpret words used by members in the course of a debate, not to give definitive translations of the texts of bills. If members are not satisfied with the words in a Minister\u2019s amendments, they should vote against them. The interpreter is an official of this House, not a person to be brought into the debate. Where a Minister has an amendment, questions about the amendment should be addressed to the Minister. What I would say, though, is that in future it would be helpful if Ministers, in moving an amendment on a Supplementary Order Paper, included the translation in the explanatory note of the Supplementary Order Paper. Had that been done, I do not think that this issue would have arisen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222167cffddc9a49b6a1d527b53b94efde\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000738\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9451e0e65564ef6b9f4fd2be7bbb617\u0022\u003EPreamble (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfa5cdaf9c094dac9aacff2aee48229d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfa5cdaf9c094dac9aacff2aee48229d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: We were discussing the preamble, and following from that we come to a translation to be given by John Tamihere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u002225988b9e4d044421a1e65138c6257426\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225988b9e4d044421a1e65138c6257426\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE (Labour\u2014Tamaki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E Supplementary Order Paper 327 has been read in large part by Mr Gerry Brownlee. The interpretation is as follows, and can be followed by all members in recital (12) of the preamble to the bill: \u201CThe Crown and Te Runanga o Ngati Awa initialled a deed on 8 July 2002. Ng\u0101ti Awa ratified the Crown\u2019s settlement offer and entered into a deed of settlement on 27 March 2003 recording matters to give effect to a full and final settlement of all Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2019s historical claims.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225063e39288234a859e1d76f941661930\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225063e39288234a859e1d76f941661930\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. As it now seems that Mr John Tamihere is the pre-eminent M\u0101ori speaker and interpreter in the Chamber, I wonder whether he could prevent us from getting further into a bind by letting us know what the effect would be of the amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 327 in the name of the Hon Margaret Wilson to insert recital (10A).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u00223eac7973466c47e29133de99594be1d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eac7973466c47e29133de99594be1d6\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I hope that the member could perhaps answer my question, as well. I freely admit that my knowledge of M\u0101ori is extremely limited, but in recital (10A) I can clearly see the numbers 27 and 2003 and I would, therefore, expect 27 and 2003 to be in the English version in recital (12) of the preamble. Furthermore, I cannot for the life of me see 8, 2002, or the M\u0101ori word for July in recital (10A). I am somewhat confused that recital (10A) clearly makes reference to 27 March 2003, but that it does not have any reference to 8 July 2002. Therefore, I ask whether recital (12) in English is an accurate translation of recital (10A) in M\u0101ori. Perhaps the member, another M\u0101ori member, or our interpreter could clarify that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00223e2bfaa24a57472d899261f73e410a2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e2bfaa24a57472d899261f73e410a2f\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I believe that this is one of the difficulties that was highlighted by Mr Brownlee when he questioned the appropriateness of another member in the Chamber making the interpretation. In the actual words that were read out by Mr Brownlee in M\u0101ori\u2014notwithstanding that I had some difficulty understanding the M\u0101ori; I am not a teacher of M\u0101ori, as he is\u2014no mention was made of the year 2002. Yet the interpretation that the honourable member Mr Tamihere read out referred to the year 2002. So one could essentially argue the technical point as to the accuracy of his interpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002232954a3e3f8d4d3096a595f8099c13d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232954a3e3f8d4d3096a595f8099c13d6\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Associate Minister in Charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I think the point has been made several times that there is a difference between giving a word-by-word translation and delivering the clear intent. The intent is clear, and that is precisely what Mr Tamihere delivered to the Committee, as I think the member would honestly agree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022270dca92185845dea79962092e214bd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022270dca92185845dea79962092e214bd9\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I just wish to clarify. There is no mention, as Mr Paraone has said, in the M\u0101ori text of a particular date. I suspect I am right in saying that the amendment is supposed to do that. But although it amends the text to include the year, it does not include the date. So we are still left with the situation whereby the text in M\u0101ori is not the same as the text in English. That, incidentally, was my point last night. It could have been cleared up some hours ago, but some people in this Chamber are just too clever for their own good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3e2ba46ac5c4637abf611c4fd7d2870\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3e2ba46ac5c4637abf611c4fd7d2870\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we need to move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2150336d6f24740b2efd5b65ed422a4\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairman, we will have to come back to it if we do not clear it up now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f536b403905f4f6188765b916d3f94c5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: All right. I will just say on the last matter that the amendment of the Hon Margaret Wilson and the version included in Mr Brownlee\u2019s speech were what were interpreted by Mr Tamihere. We could run around in circles\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022047e749554074d28a5d2da89f997b512\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: We will have to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebc16c69f3bb4a69b6d6e7a05a4168ed\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, we will not. My understanding of what was said is pretty clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022de5b97858c1e4f6fae0ee2c68a591572\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de5b97858c1e4f6fae0ee2c68a591572\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This may be a similar point that can be readily clarified, and I would accept the interpreter\u2019s assurance on it without reservation. Again, being cast to it, I see no reference to the r\u016Bnanga in the M\u0101ori text. That may be because there is a longer way of describing it or because something is summarised in the term \u201Cr\u016Bnanga\u201D, but I would have assumed that \u201Cr\u016Bnanga\u201D is a M\u0101ori word and would not need to be retranslated into M\u0101ori text. If the neutral interpreter had given us that statement, I guess we would not be asking these questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00225d23430d30e44af388d03adc78968a20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d23430d30e44af388d03adc78968a20\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: All of the matters raised are matters of debate. The matters raised will no doubt provide material for the debate as we go on with it. That process should be followed. If members do not agree with it, they can vote against it. I do not see any sense in further points of order on this. It is very clear to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d26ab901aa7454da0daa9983808f56f\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: How can we debate translation matters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe465498fac3418d9755f2ac44510283\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The points being raised by members are incorrect as to specific words, and I am told that the month and the day are in the text.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022b449d20c74bc43b8bcd431af2a9c02b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b449d20c74bc43b8bcd431af2a9c02b5\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I do not want to have a debate on that. The Greens support the bill. I just want somebody to explain to me where in recital (10A) of the M\u0101ori text are the M\u0101ori words for 8 July 2002, which are in the English text.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e99d7330b649e284243186810c26ff\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants someone to explain that to him, I will ask the Minister to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226963347cb1174d84bbe6070149830916\u0022\u003EROD DONALD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because it just does not seem to be there. If I may ask a second question, then I will not say anything more in this debate. Why can the numbers in M\u0101ori not connect with the numbers in English, which would help to reduce the public\u2019s confusion when this bill is finally passed, so that people could look at one number and text in English\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00224a60374a660f40d08c4779a44f56c44e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a60374a660f40d08c4779a44f56c44e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand. Mr Donald has asked for someone to attempt to explain that, and I have asked the Minister to make that attempt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00229508f7ca6fef4688a0bf9f8842a714da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229508f7ca6fef4688a0bf9f8842a714da\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Associate Minister in Charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E In the M\u0101ori translation, the fourth word on the first line, \u201Ctuawaru\u201D, means \u201Cthe eighth\u201D. It is written as a word rather than a number and is therefore less obvious to members, but that is the translation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d34281c88785438fac07cd917950907e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d34281c88785438fac07cd917950907e\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I think that the point of order raised by Mr Franks was a valid one in terms of talking about Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Awa, as opposed to Ng\u0101ti Awa. M\u0101ori members of the Committee will know that when we talk about te r\u016Bnanga we are talking about a governance body, whereas in the translation, where the term \u201Cte r\u016Bnanga\u201D has been omitted, we are talking about the whole tribe. The point Mr Franks raised is, I believe, a valid one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis is one of the first bills during my time here for which the M\u0101ori interpretation has been provided, and I am saddened that there is a fear\u2014particularly for me, as a M\u0101ori member\u2014that in future our opportunity to promote our language may be lost because, unfortunately, on a technicality, people are unable to understand clearly the translation, or the interpretation; whatever word members want to use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1f837abe05049478c7a5de9993e4cfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1f837abe05049478c7a5de9993e4cfc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think we need anything more on this. As we go on through, it will be entirely up to members to move an amendment if they think a word is out of place or is not understood. I think the Committee has made its best attempt to resolve the issue. There was a translation made for most purposes, and I accept it. It may not be acceptable to all members, but we could go on all night. All 119 other members in this Chamber could give their version, and no one need accept it. We will now move on to the preamble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022d60365aff0834cd49588ae1b66e17357\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d60365aff0834cd49588ae1b66e17357\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I asked for a ruling on the role of the interpreter in this Chamber and what he is here for if not to avoid just this kind of dispute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e4944ecd1534dc692ed0f89b87dc72b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Franks. That ruling on the role of the interpreter was given by the Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dc6d0a54f7442a7b38b478eda01c3c8\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker gave a ruling on that particular matter. I am now asking why we cannot ask the interpreter in order to stop us from looking as if we are arguing between ourselves on a matter of translation, when we are not. We are simply asking to know that the words being used in each provision mean the same thing. I believe that we would all accept the interpreter\u2019s comment, but you, Mr Chairperson, said that we have to accept the Minister\u2019s explanation and that of Mr Tamihere. I asked for a ruling about why we have an interpreter in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8d624d75d9f45dd825aa072603e4eec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8d624d75d9f45dd825aa072603e4eec\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is all the member was asking. I did not ask members to accept the Minister\u2019s ruling. It was another member who asked for anyone to assist with the matter. That is why the Minister was asked. I am not asking members to accept Mr Tamihere\u2019s translation of the text. It is all pretty obvious because it is there in the English text, which has been gone through by a translator who has a M\u0101ori translator\u2019s licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5c48c8f7c0407c87c7ed5ad52fb225\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: There is no \u201Cr\u016Bnanga\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224988c6e4e8aa4edabb7d061d10a5a3c1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee02c93591664dc7bb65d9904235f64a\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: That is in the Minister\u2019s statement, not in our man\u2019s statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022521b4ea519c041d4b4fa518cc9a23e13\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s question is about why we have an interpreter. It is a good question. The Speaker explained the role of the interpreter and the choice that the Chairperson has. I cannot tell members any more than that. I guess that we have an interpreter in order to enable members to gain a reasonable understanding of what was said in the debate. We do that, and we will continue to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022d57a2a579cc34bdc855e6a97f407be4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d57a2a579cc34bdc855e6a97f407be4f\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The Speaker gave us a ruling that confirmed the authority of the Chair to invite someone to interpret, but the Speaker did not give us a statement on the role of the interpreter. We are now on a separate matter from that. We are now asking why there is what appears to be such a significant difference as the omission of \u201Cte r\u016Bnanga\u201D, which refers to the governing body as opposed to the whole tribe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22ec0f52d0e46e4a7458be32371c84e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: These are matters of debate that members can raise later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f5635eece245e2b0f20d937fc0f3be\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: No, they are matters of interpretation. I do not want to argue; I just want to understand. We have an interpreter in the Chamber who sits here night after night and is never called on, and now we want an explanation and he will not be called on. No one can tell me why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed0e7f9316b742e996af78b8b8f07766\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed0e7f9316b742e996af78b8b8f07766\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that the Speaker covered that precise point. That is exactly what the Speaker covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf68ad7e2baa4f9fb115f0791bfbe4a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf68ad7e2baa4f9fb115f0791bfbe4a0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. When the Deputy Speaker came back to the Chamber she quite rightly said that the role of the interpreter is to interpret, not to translate. The House accepted that, and Mr Tamihere translated. We are now saying that it is a concern to a number of people in the Committee that the translation was not correct. It comes down to the question of whether \u201Cte r\u016Bnanga\u201D is mentioned in the M\u0101ori text. I cannot see it there, but there could well be a translation available that would state that the expressions convey that sentiment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt strikes me as strange that we have had in this country 160-plus years of argument over what was actually said and meant in the Treaty of Waitangi, and here we are, 160 years later, trying to sort out grievances that apparently have arisen from the beliefs and understandings of obligations that were given, conferred, and accepted in that treaty. We ask for a simple interpretation from an interpreter who is provided to the Parliament, so that we can find out what is in this text. We are going round and round in circles, because you have told us that it is a debating matter. The last debate over a translation issue took 160 years. We would like to get on with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022dee923e207724b4ba4947758479d0282\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dee923e207724b4ba4947758479d0282\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. That is what I was suggesting quite some time ago, and I realise that we are going to get on with it. I say to Mr Franks that the interpreter is there to give an oral version, in English, of words that have been uttered orally in M\u0101ori. Members may well say that that is exactly what Mr Brownlee did, but that is not what he did. Mr Brownlee read out\u2014very well\u2014what he had in front of him, and there is a distinction there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EMembers are effectively asking the interpreter to give evidence to the Committee. He cannot do so, any more than the Clerk can. If members do not like the M\u0101ori text, they can move amendments to it, but they cannot ask the interpreter to second-guess a member\u2019s statement. There will always be variations when we are dealing with that sort of thing. Can we move on now, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022877d5377e99a4bdda490803924fc66a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022877d5377e99a4bdda490803924fc66a2\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Can I take from your ruling that we can actually move an amendment? Speaker\u2019s ruling 102/4 states that we cannot amend what has been agreed by the parties, and I understood that this recital fell into that category. If it does not, then we can make a number of amendments\u2014which I think New Zealand First members have felt unable to make\u2014where the recital wrongly refers to the so-called principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. I have assumed that New Zealand First wrote its Supplementary Order Paper, which does not try to correct that, on the basis that that was part of the agreement. If, in fact, we can now move amendments to the recitals, then we will do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002298e0e3060fea4f1ba68e715166814d2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298e0e3060fea4f1ba68e715166814d2a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right. There was an agreement on clauses 7, 8, 9, and 10. Members can put in as many amendments to the preamble as they wish\u2014from zero to many hundreds, if they want to. There is no limit on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022936c47084ff04d4d96950daefe64a4f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022936c47084ff04d4d96950daefe64a4f3\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. K\u0101ore ng\u0101 kupu, \u201Cte r\u016Bnanga\u201D, i roto i t\u0113nei pire m\u014D ng\u0101 kupu o te Minita. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E[In respect of the Minister\u2019s statement, the words \u201Cte r\u016Bnanga\u201D are not in this bill.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289aa5f38c8594c1a82663fc5cf6e5cf0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member, for my benefit and that of the Committee, please give the English interpretation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022460e7a197ddb4e0c90d0f04ae0570f34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022460e7a197ddb4e0c90d0f04ae0570f34\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE (Labour\u2014Tamaki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Standing Order 104 and the Speakers\u2019 rulings relating to speeches in M\u0101ori make it very clear that the trifling that has gone on with the Chair tonight is not just frustrating to members here but is absolutely disrespectful to the Ng\u0101ti Awa chiefs who are here tonight. I feel obliged to stand up to say that. The stunt that was just pulled in M\u0101ori is just another abomination this evening. My point of order is that Standing Order 104 does not state that the M\u0101ori language must be transliterated to the extent that other members like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdfd00571e58427ba1add672410417fe\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb7aeabfe86a4112b10764d866b46895\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Franks does not and Mr Brownlee does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dcda1f8c1344566be08e5c9d373c73b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: It has gone past Mr Franks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289a597a2e21a48339ca24caf32a8a39f\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: The point we have to get at is quite simply this. In the event that we express ourselves as Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Awa, or Ng\u0101ti Awa, we are using movable terminologies that are dependent on the context of the expressions being used. Members opposite might not understand that, but that is the reality. The point I make is that we have now spent 30 minutes on a very special bill and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c63acebf5a4f36a868acf893c68af2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: And none of them have been points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002254a791a2638d47b8a1f77c4806c3b549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254a791a2638d47b8a1f77c4806c3b549\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0cc1a3201f4465aa9bc17d944e3738\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please sit down. I have let this go on\u2014I know what it is\u2014because I have tended, in many ways, to let members run their course. The judgment on whether they have been misusing this Committee or trifling with the Chair is for other members to make, and I have no doubt that they will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050216fb166939a205493a86523becf7db4a2e000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.57 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"