"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022311b638f4da7462999a8d2203ab04d1c\u0022\u003EThursday, 17 March 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0c1d486495e4230b9f510ceae4bf822\u0022\u003EThursday, 17 March 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002255ff87309b0045c4b7c7a04a4ecf1619\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2ac84dd53d8442991fc9648dfc6f55d\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb3dc20ff41244c7b28cce0127c92cef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb3dc20ff41244c7b28cce0127c92cef\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week the House will go into a 1-week adjournment. When the House resumes on 29 March, priority will be given to the Committee stage of the Appropriation (2003/04 Financial Review) Bill, a 4-hour debate, and the remaining stages of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. Priority will also be given to any first readings on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002283f2ad0fd58840229068277cc662e514\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f2ad0fd58840229068277cc662e514\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National): \u003C/span\u003EI wonder whether the Leader of the House might tell us how many third readings he currently has on the Order Paper and intends to complete in the next short while, and also whether the much-promised Resource Management Act bill will see the light of day on the Order Paper before the House rises for an event later this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022787ed04cb094450e9e83c406ff99600e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022787ed04cb094450e9e83c406ff99600e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I have one third reading on the Order Paper, and I hope to finish it by roughly 5 o\u2019clock today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022856dab43f8cc4aad81deea11fa938305\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271bff59eb65a4a608132eb39cb23a0d4\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad25a67ce5324b119034fbd4659809b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad25a67ce5324b119034fbd4659809b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the House to meet on the ringing of the bell on Tuesday, 29 March and Thursday, 31 March, when there are State luncheons for the Prime Ministers of Bahrain and Malaysia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6cf87e2351a4734a08155fe028df381\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There being no objection, that course will be followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276bd0acf4d1541ebaf0464129ad08585\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002257dec6be1975449990a8014835a9b80e\u0022\u003EChamber\u2014Television Cameras\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2ec51c7f3024abe84b6b26395b8b6f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2ec51c7f3024abe84b6b26395b8b6f5\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Under the Rt Hon Jonathan Hunt, cameras were not allowed to take pictures of Ministers or MPs asleep. I am interested in whether you, as the new Speaker, will be enforcing that rule, or whether that is no longer the rule. Could you please inform the House what the rule on cameras taking pictures of Ministers asleep is and, indeed, what action you have taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241c86a0478594cf9a19f25619a1d6653\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have the matter under consideration. Once I have made a decision, then I shall, of course, inform the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce0d3da5cd54beaae710223dd631c96\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, my question to you was quite simple. We have a rule. Is it still the rule? Is the Speaker enforcing it\u2014yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022495dc75c33bf4134a2003601f479ca18\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The rules have not changed, but I have the specific matter under consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223dca9cee7527441696c7d5860efaa4ed\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5 to Minister, 16 March\u2014Minister\u2019s Replies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00220bb4bf58860846c48b3d210d7536edcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bb4bf58860846c48b3d210d7536edcf\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This is a new matter. I am sorry, but this will undoubtedly save time at question time. I want to raise with you something that happened at question time yesterday and a difficulty we on this side of the House have at question time. I want to take the House back to a supplementary question Heather Roy asked the Minister of Health yesterday. She asked\u2014and I have the Hansard\u2014\u201CHow many patients will die of the flu this winter because of this dodgy vaccine?\u201D. It was very clear to the House that she asked how many would die of the flu. The Minister answered that no patients would die because of this dodgy vaccine. Then I asked whether the Minister would stand by that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E The Minister then said, with regard to me rewriting the question, that she had said it was not a dodgy vaccine. The Minister had actually said that it was. There was a series of points of order, then the Leader of the House, Michael Cullen, stood up and suggested that we were somehow trying to rewrite Heather Roy\u2019s question, when the question was entirely about people dying of the flu. That meant we had to use another two questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOn the third question that the ACT party asked, I asked: \u201CHow many people will die of the flu this winter because this vaccine does not vaccinate them against all three strains as promised?\u201D. I am sure the House can appreciate that that was the same question. The Minister replied: \u201CI do not have that information\u201D. That meant that she did not know. My point is that that is what takes up a lot of time at question time and a great many points of order. The Minister could have said on the very first question that she did not have the information. It was not helpful that the Leader of the House tried to reinterpret the question. I ask you not to let the Government get away with trying to reinterpret Opposition questions, or forcing Opposition parties that have very little chance to question the Government to burn up their questions as they try to seek clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022330fc8ca96694c218b84121682087ca3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is effectively debating the Minister\u2019s answers yesterday. It is not a matter that the Speaker can resolve. There are occasions available to do that like the general debate, where that matter could be raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c830c4d13084eb5b8314c2cbdd04408\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022725e072dbdf246059909c69340a3db6f\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab7fef5bc6af494cb990ffd9412e5700\u0022\u003EHigh-country Land\u2014Tenure Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b06dc042ffcc4128a8b50ccf7ded2802\u0022\u003E1. LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Land Information: What recent reports has he received on tenure review in the South Island high country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00220ede226133e84372b9d295f792df595c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ede226133e84372b9d295f792df595c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E I have received three reports in the last day: a report from Dr Don Brash stating that tenure review is a deliberate land grab; a second report, also from Dr Don Brash, conceding that the Government could not grab land that it already owned; and a third report this morning repeating the fact that it is a deliberate land grab. The gentleman is bewildered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291240cb345be4cd687ed05fe173263e0\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has the Minister seen on how much land is being freeholded or added to the conservation estate from the tenure review process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e027bdf138e454e93c2dad6f9c0d6a1\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen one report from the aforementioned Dr Don Brash, which quoted a figure of at least 60 percent of land that is going into the conservation estate. He is wrong. The figure to date is not 60 percent, but about 35 percent. When advised of his error, he blamed runholders for giving him the wrong figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c90a83b7e66c40939fafdbe1aa7ed218\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any further reports, including a copy of the Department of Conservation\u2019s last annual report indicating that the department failed to meet 21 out of 35 self-imposed performance targets in the area of the management of natural heritage, and does he think the department should concentrate on its core business of meeting those targets, rather than managing the South Island high country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223398ec8942164c4eb833b5e9c0073233\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not receive those reports, because I am not the Minister of Conservation. However, it is my view that the Department of Conservation has a mandate far broader than just making sure that we do not lose endangered species. I would say to the member that improving access to the high country for the trampers and walkers of our nation is a good idea, not a bad one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289f99ebdf17448aba1f336b7c967585e\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the submission made by the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society to the Finance and Expenditure Committee yesterday that the sale of Crown-owned pastoral leases to overseas interests should be prohibited, and that at the very least the tenure review process should be completed before any sale to overseas interests proceeds; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245d148280758452f89a428b6141e52b5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be aware that the Overseas Investment Bill, currently before a select committee, proposes a somewhat more effective regime in this regard. I trust that the member will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88b136b4220432f853e720500664f10\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen comments made yesterday by Dr Hugh Barr for the Council of Outdoor Recreation Associations on the subject of the principal question; if so, what is his reaction to those comments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220734f41d0d694a3a90d0b3b18a7602ef\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, in fact I have. The Council of Outdoor Recreation Associations has said: \u201CDon Brash is way off target with his criticism of pastoral tenure review.\u201D The Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society said: \u201CBrash has an agenda to privatise the high country, and restrict access to it to a privileged few.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229923a84de24d4050bb11d94d876768dd\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on attempts to restrict the role of the Department of Conservation, in light of the answer that he gave to an earlier supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220225774c54dc45d19542e463598f039e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: One report from Dr Don Brash, who would restrict the Department of Conservation to protecting flora and endangered species, curtail its advocacy role, and give it a new mission statement that would shut out the Department of Conservation from promoting public access to, and enjoyment of, not only the high country, but also our world-renowned network of tracks and huts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045e93fae3bc40bbbf56917b64df0258\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the reports that the ACT party has not flip-flopped on its policies, that it does consider the land tenure review to be a land-grab, and indeed, right at this moment, Mr Gerrard Eckhoff is out campaigning against this Government\u2019s land-grab along the country\u2019s rivers and waterways, and our members will oppose it, just as we will oppose all the socialism of this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af973b447e75456e98b91756cc287443\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted to observe that at least on one issue there is now agreement between the National Party and ACT, even if they are both wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EQuestion time interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022735d613cca2c465a870b54de6d7aed4c\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e25c653fe3d49658a845e887cc93e02\u0022\u003EChamber\u2014Absence of Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002217a48172babc40b1b7b37ed00992376b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217a48172babc40b1b7b37ed00992376b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder whether you could advise the House of either one of two things: first, whether the Government fulfilled its quorum requirements for the House today\u2014I notice the very empty Labour back benches; and, secondly, is there some fire alarm that we have not been told about, or perhaps some caucus alarm that we also have not been told about? It is rather extraordinary that more than half of them are absent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208c8f2e6f2841e5a249e0664d4cd9aa\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00222b6e8b4fd8e14894a8f027294d73de3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b6e8b4fd8e14894a8f027294d73de3f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I assure Mr Gerry Brownlee that it is not a fire alarm; it is called a general election, and those M\u0101ori MPs are busy trying to get back some votes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a169b510b44608ab6618a491fed120\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call question No. 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0c8ff589b904cc9b33f661e91f4b187\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0c8ff589b904cc9b33f661e91f4b187\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think we have an obligation to inform the media on whether they can or cannot take pictures of the fact that the Government back-bench seats are empty. It is no good holding them up for breaking some rule next week if the rule does not apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1dfb1b78bd46b8b0ae240cd325b66d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The media understand the rules, I am sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00229d02c857b9514d4a83fe525a1b283cd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d02c857b9514d4a83fe525a1b283cd3\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c1dc5984eb1423594eb6e87f220bbb5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am ruling that the rules remain the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223746daa9d12944da933e0ce5e3915bf9\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I am somewhat behind the media and I do not know what the rules are. Please let me know what they are. Can the media take a photograph of the empty Government back benches, or can they not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022933a009768a84ce2b544c15723d623b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022933a009768a84ce2b544c15723d623b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I assume the point of order is out of order because he is referring to the absence of members. Otherwise, we would point out that ACT has only four of its nine members present and National has only 16 of its 27\u2014with 11 away. I think you will find the proportions are relatively similar around the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022183ae58fbd0f414b97723049bddd5c27\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that point has been well canvassed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0f9e4e5dcc74ce685b27b5bc4dfbe23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0f9e4e5dcc74ce685b27b5bc4dfbe23\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think the Minister might like to look at the numbers\u201429 present out of 51 or 52 goes way over the required leave allowance for the Labour Party. Even a dim light like me can see that that is the case. What about some explanation? Where are these people? If they are out there campaigning now, let us all go. If an election date has been declared, tell us what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c461d113edc64192b7474fcdc3ea2018\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please sit down, Mr Brownlee. That is not a valid point of order. We will now proceed to question No. 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00223bb961b8fa9242de94f26c8a01e02447\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bb961b8fa9242de94f26c8a01e02447\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think Mr Prebble has raised an important issue about the cameras in the House, because we can clearly see what has happened here. We know that the Labour Government wants to control the cameras in this House. It is very clear that the Government has shifted all its MPs forward so that when the cameras film what they are allowed to film, it looks like it is packed up. It is a deliberate ploy to try to trick the members and they have left all the back benches\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e22d68073542cd8a72968428bb92f2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled that this is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258ff4ff3c5794d07afbef055f5045d85\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022786c4d06048e4eaf9e97c5e4470bd3e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022786c4d06048e4eaf9e97c5e4470bd3e0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please sit down. Mr Hide, would you please leave the Chamber. You did not sit down when I rose and asked you to. Would you please leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e91e6be56324644bf98669d5f82c7fa\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: This is a serious issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022716be621bcb64b56b8de541a2e092208\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would you please leave this Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af94782899ac4871bb93c5c19f7ca83f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f65f9b057ef741e3a452bce72ec6db9b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will ask the Serjeant-at-Arms to assist you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224edcca764d0242bb82e1fdac9a20b9a0\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: This is hopeless. You will not let the cameras go, you will not say what the rules are, and you will not let anyone do their job in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f275b054642648a89b8a99d0e82e99ad\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is my job to rule on what is a point of order and to maintain order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ERodney Hide withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022095a7f94d99348db9da07d162c27cd8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022095a7f94d99348db9da07d162c27cd8e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The circumstance that has just contributed to Mr Hide being asked to leave the Chamber is, in my opinion, entirely the problem of the Government. This is question time, where there is the opportunity to question Ministers. Repeatedly over the last 3 years we have seen Ministers offend in the House to a point where they should have been asked to leave. The previous Speaker\u2014and I am sure it will be in the rulings that flow from his tenure\u2014has said that if Ministers are to answer a question later in the proceedings they could stay in the House for that. I ask you to consider allowing Mr Hide to come back into the House to ask question No. 6. It seems to me that where a party has only limited opportunities to ask questions it should be given the full opportunity to ask those questions. Ministers have been accorded this sort of courtesy in the past, and I ask you to consider today allowing Mr Hide to come back to ask his question, question No. 6\u2014which, of course, we know is going to cause the Government considerable embarrassment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022df5388f73bc14ae1929e5ce4bedf2e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df5388f73bc14ae1929e5ce4bedf2e7f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Clearly what happened here, and is continuing to happen, is a series of points of order designed to challenge your authority. I have never seen any situation where a member continues to refuse to obey the Speaker\u2019s ruling and does not end up being thrown out of the House. To now allow the member back in will be essentially to say that there is no real penalty for that persistent bad behaviour, and I am surprised that Mr Brownlee is associating himself with Mr Hide\u2019s behaviour in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5d05300f50a434dadd4030d0a14e551\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5d05300f50a434dadd4030d0a14e551\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Actually, what we have here is a member raising a point of order\u2014which he or she is entitled to do; members are entitled to have a point of order heard by everyone, including the Speaker\u2014and the Speaker deciding, even though the person raising it was a leader of a party, to rise in the middle of a point of order and then push the member into a position whereby the right to raise a point of order has now been deprived of an Opposition party member. That has not been done by this Speaker to any Government member. Government members have been raising bogus points of order, as was pointed out by Mr Hide yesterday, which actually deprived our party of questions that we wanted to ask. That was not interrupted by the Speaker. However, you have got up now and have created, perhaps unintentionally, the impression that the Government is going to be protected from being asked question No.\u00A06, which asks why its Ministers are seen to be asleep on the job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b382e5c1e2ea4330ae6392b8d72f1791\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b382e5c1e2ea4330ae6392b8d72f1791\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to protest on behalf of New Zealand First at the way the question time has been conducted thus far today. It has been a gross waste of time, as have the points of order, as has the reference to the absence of members. In the case of the ACT members it is very obvious why it is\u2014they are getting used to being out of the House permanently in a few months\u2019 time, and I could say it is the same for the back bench over there. It is 20 past 2, and some of us have to catch an aeroplane. We are just wasting the whole time, and I think it is totally unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002269c9db6ea9d749268da78a4f416ab10b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269c9db6ea9d749268da78a4f416ab10b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member whom I asked to withdraw had raised a point of order several times. I had ruled on that point of order and he continued to raise that point of order. I now wish to move to question No. 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002235746304191a41df871342654ffd75bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235746304191a41df871342654ffd75bf\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Thank you for that ruling, but the point is, as the whip of the ACT party, I would like to know whether Mr Hide can come back to ask his question No. 6. Could your ruling make that quite clear, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00225a8f96eeac7647f8911340e4b4959fb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a8f96eeac7647f8911340e4b4959fb1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My ruling is, no, he cannot. The member is responsible for his own behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EQuestion time resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8cbd77bbd5b4845b3d6a0edbdce6b66\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fec88deef004acdaddad9545cc17872\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5f9cfaf4c50407a84c153809fd6e361\u0022\u003EInfluenza\u2014Vaccination Programme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E2. BARBARA STEWART (NZ First), on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc3c750b35804b3da0b50eb08860dae4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First),\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence that her Minister of Health will ensure that elderly New Zealanders will not die as a consequence of the lack of a suitable supply of flu vaccine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022844f044f9d344474ae0685f3293f9bd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022844f044f9d344474ae0685f3293f9bd9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Prime Minister: I have confidence that the Minister is doing everything in her power to ensure that the health authorities obtain as much flu vaccine as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfcfdfd0f9c947e8a361bee5f10a4e90\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: At what point did Pharmac discover that the Sanofi Pasteur vaccine was only half the required strength for protection against the Wellington strain of the flu?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b34611610154a91a837b9a83130762f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have information as to when the company discovered that. All I have here is information about when it informed us. The Minister was advised of the actual problem on 7 March. Almost immediately steps were taken to secure alternative vaccine supplies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c1b7c674bf8435f8482679c8fe574c1\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Prime Minister not asked the Minister of Health to resign, given that the Prime Minister confirmed to the House that Ms King was advised \u201Cof the issues\u201D relating to the flu vaccine on 28 February, but Ms King did not make efforts to find out the nature of that vitally important public health issue, by her own admission, until 7 March?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222acc78eecbf049f8ac8939125917f5ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister was advised on 28 February that there was a potential problem with the flu vaccine, but not until 7 March of the exact nature of it. That problem, of course, applies to 70 percent of the supplies in the Southern Hemisphere, which all come from the same company. The Australian Minister is in exactly the same position as our Minister, and no doubt the Australian Labor Party is going through the same performance in the Australian House this week that we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246a57735e81441a7b889bb1ff5fce410\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Did Sanofi Pasteur give a contractual guarantee that its vaccine would cover the Wellington strain of the flu?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224084f3220ecd40ef899b545f8af16b6a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not advised whether there was a guarantee. Certainly, it was contracted to provide a vaccine that would meet the Southern Hemisphere requirements, and clearly, as it accepts, this vaccine does not. Obviously, we may look to our remedies in relation to that, and I prefer, therefore, not to comment further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229de6fec8a7f1447198ec3ca36714a503\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Is it accurate to say that only 50,000 people will receive the fully effective vaccine within the next few weeks, and that the additional 100,000 doses from Commonwealth Serum Laboratories may not arrive in time to be effective against an early flu outbreak; if so, what confidence can we have in the Government\u2019s ability to deal with any outbreak of a more serious nature, such as bird flu?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0fb82ff89944cdda58c8e75d2d36ecb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, the technical advice is that a 2 to 3 week delay in the vaccine is not expected to make much difference, given the pattern of influenza in previous years. In relation to avian flu, of course, no vaccine has yet been developed against it. That matter is being taken up by the World Health Organization as a matter of some urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb925975548943a784358f1983c1c0e5\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a paper published by Pharmac, in which it states that the flu vaccine will be available in New Zealand from 1 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022655c76c5171043469854b694452a4ea2\u0022\u003EBeneficiaries\u2014Training for Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223437092219ca4c29a94679939d91f0c4\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does he accept that the provision of training is an important part of assisting people who receive invalids benefits and sickness benefits into the workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f31a12049ace40d8985de1e324b99fc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f31a12049ace40d8985de1e324b99fc6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. For instance, over 1,000 invalids benefit recipients are receiving a weekly training incentive allowance for support with their study costs. Plus, one of the most important changes that will occur with the shift to the single core benefit is that people\u2019s eligibility for programmes and services, including training, will be determined by their individual circumstances, rather than their benefit category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221095409897e84f46866474241837187c\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that a sickness or invalids beneficiary needs to have been enrolled as a job seeker for 26 weeks in order to access the training opportunities programme, and is this not a classic catch-22, because to get a sickness or invalids benefit in the first place people will most likely be too sick or too disabled to work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee60349ea5843ff80481183a4ac5d0a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware of that. It is one of the reasons, however, that we are changing to the new service model that will allow people who perhaps have a disability, but are seeking work, to access services around training much earlier when they are capable of going back to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f8856b8b302451c803ec90c8a048957\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing now to put in place a more proactive approach to helping people who receive invalids benefits and sickness benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad5ee88b2f064ac2ba69296822c84784\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to the changes I outlined in my primary answer, the new service for sickness and invalids benefits recipients piloted last year is now being rolled out across regions. This includes cutting case manager loads by more than half, addressing medical needs that stand in the way of a return to work, assistance to employers, and tailored career services and skills identification. We have seen from these pilots between a 9 to 17 percent increase so far in people moving back into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4fdb57492a94e029245b36c81ed0b47\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the statistics that show that there has been a 38 percent increase in the number of sickness and invalids beneficiaries since his Government came to power, and why does he not concentrate on fixing up that mess instead of focusing on continual administrative shuffle-ups like the \u201Cnew service delivery model\u201D he is introducing right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240557e8afba34797a37da855478e4273\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that question. I am aware that there was a 94 percent increase in these figures during the time of her Government, and, unlike that Government, we began piloting programmes last year that\u2014and I will repeat this for the member because I like the sound of the figures\u2014we have already seen from the 6-month pilot between a 9 and 17 percent increase in numbers of people going into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741a6e022096464bac66412537f4a45d\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: When will the new programme that the Minister has just been talking about actually start, and can he assure training providers and beneficiaries that in future sickness and invalids beneficiaries will be able to access the Training Opportunities Programme despite not having been registered as job seekers for 26 weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022539bec5f6874447e882b733ccb289b87\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The pilots started last year\u2014in other words, we started them during 2004\u2014and they are being rolled out this year, and the full new service model rolls out from May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf573cdaea2f4ce5a9c728cfcf46c904\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government dragging the chain on expanding the Providing Access to Health Solutions programme that, in his own words, offers specially tailored clinical and social support for clients experiencing anxiety, depression, stress, or similar mental health conditions to ensure a speedy return to employment, and when will all the one in five New Zealanders who could benefit from this programme have access to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247abee617e01429287aa440e3e5745fa\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: We are not dragging the chain. We need to negotiate the provision of service with providers like district health boards. Of course it takes time for them to put those services in place and we will do that as fast as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249113c2ec6514e53a716c70fbb04fae5\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister assure the House that he has no plans to introduce work capacity testing of the accident compensation variety for sickness and invalids benefits as a means of classifying them as job seekers; if not, when will he introduce the new tests?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201de1aa9aeb64e0d9e19b3344120ca18\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In the new model we intend to look at the capacity of individuals to take on part-time or full-time work. The mistake that has been made in the past was to simply categorise people as capable. That was clearly a disaster. But to look at the individual circumstances of a person and his or her capacity is something that has actually been asked for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002293c05aebe0d34313a6b11c8959264f40\u0022\u003EInfluenza\u2014Vaccination Programme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c53b42d87e7f4ef18a274507ce540167\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: If an early flu hits New Zealand this winter, can she confirm that only 50,000 New Zealanders are likely to have been successfully immunised by the fully effective vaccine, and that the additional 100,000 doses supplied by Commonwealth Serum Laboratories are possibly still months away, thereby putting lives at risk; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00224c0ac807bd7d4b06b7e61ea5a0b69dc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c0ac807bd7d4b06b7e61ea5a0b69dc7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Health: No. The 2 to 3 week delay in delivery of the vaccine is not expected to make much difference, given the pattern of influenza in previous years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bd963a3f4c4940a46c5a5996b553ff\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when so many people\u2019s lives are at risk, did she do nothing for a week but wait for a report, asking no questions, seeking no daily briefings, and demanding no urgent explanation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3a71a472dc4e9f9e168f81fe4662ff\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is a matter of record that Pharmac advised the Minister of Health on the evening of 28 February that there may be problems with the influenza vaccine. At that stage it was not clear what the situation was. The next day\u20141 March, a Tuesday\u2014Pharmac started seeking alternative supplies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25a9079fd4942d0935c485c94b7b6c6\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: Who determines the strains that are included in the vaccine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256c10457dee419a9d1545a831d938c0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Each year the World Health Organization determines the strains that are to be included in the vaccines for the Northern and Southern Hemispheres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022762c7345468a4c259a9df0e72d8f3f86\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Since yesterday\u2019s question time has the Minister found out how many New Zealanders\u2019 lives are potentially at risk because of this shonky flu vaccine, and if she has not found out, why should we conclude other than the fact that she simply does not care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cbd4baab77948f08fd8e7433cbf2b89\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: We would expect there would be no lives put at risk, but we will know that with greater clarity next week\u2014[Interruption] We will know that with greater clarity next week\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221334246296ab48688cc46ba9490da930\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would members please allow the Minister to complete his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d68e2912474ef8ad8081b774896845\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Are we not allowed to interject during a Minister\u2019s answer? Those interjections were very reasonable, and the Minister was simply putting on an act to try to get some sympathy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222617db3332f345028cf180ecaebf04f2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The odd interjection is permitted, but when they reach a level where it is difficult to hear the question or the answer, that is unacceptable. Would the Minister please repeat his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ca99fcaaec46ff992d6ab903735732\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: We would expect further information\u2014to more accurately answer the member\u2019s question\u2014next week, after the advice from the expert advisory group is through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d114fa33feca402c9bb0ba75935e900d\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile her fulsome endorsement in the House yesterday of Pharmac\u2019s sole supplier policy, with the fact that, subsequently, Pharmac has instituted an internal inquiry into the sole supplier policy, and bearing in mind that its experience with this vaccine is exactly the same as its botched experience with similar sole supplier practices in respect of gout medication and anaemia preparations, last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cababfeb7e3f42eba07704fb1f1ff4a7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted that Pharmac shows the flexibility to look at its practices. However, should it decide to go for a multi-supplier future it will, of course, have a multi-increased chance of failure of one of the products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe59619c65434adb8344f8e8fbe2531b\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Was she aware of the problem the Americans had 6 months ago with the supply of their vaccines, and what actions did she take at the time to assure herself that she could protect our nation\u2019s vulnerable with adequate supplies here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239359c410ece49c3b19cbfea5afa7a55\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I regret I do not have the information the member seeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a424ff13f79940828cad4d85da377cbf\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister clarify his answers? He said in answer to the principal question that a 2 to 3 week wait is not expected to make much difference, but he responded to the Hon Ken Shirley by saying he would know more in a few weeks\u2019 time. Can we assume that \u201Cnot much difference\u201D means that a few people might die, that some people might die, or, in the worst circumstances, that a lot of people might die?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022242c611d9fd948fc8bc2354419d8883a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The reason the answers were different was that the first question was about timing and the second was about efficacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200365474b29543f3b767da739ed42399\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Can she guarantee effective delivery of the flu vaccine given the complex problems of choosing the most vulnerable for the fully effective vaccine, the problem that many may require a double dose of the less effective vaccine, and the added pressure on practices brought about by the meningococcal programme; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdebd7591777473e920513a21fadd0d8\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what one does with that rap around the bushes but I would say to the member that the effective delivery of flu vaccine to the people of New Zealand this winter, in a timely way, is a matter that the Government is seized of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222384bdf1a13846fca25fef095423b0cd\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two reports. The first is a New Zealand Press Association item entitled \u201CGPs will face problems on flu shots\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b90e05e50c4c9e8b4ac03862dea5a2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. The document will not be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d5a28c226ce4c85b9de9af91fe35afa\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: The second report is from the New Zealand Herald, and it suggests that had the health authorities taken action sooner, they might have begun the search for an alternative supply earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e7969c54594b63a03b03bc53eb09bf\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to the tabling of that document? There is. It will not be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ca938dee210484e9a2cc58435b0e311\u0022\u003EIndustry Training\u2014Targets\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225355cb0c659c4f71a6d9f8fe827b5131\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What progress has the Government made towards its targets for industry training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002225e1b605b5ae41abb4a23eb036569af2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225e1b605b5ae41abb4a23eb036569af2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I am very, very pleased to report that as at the end of last year nearly 140,000 people were engaged in industry training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b28ec30d8a74772bd7f77e31ee16d33\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f300e40b124a7facb0a6b5cac09ec6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Nearly 140,000, thanks to my former Associate Minister Steve Maharey. We are well on track to meet the target of 150,000 by the end of the year. Funding for industry training has nearly doubled since we have been in Government, and it contrasts with the cuts made in the death throes of the former National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b3743a27394516a7d5217e3b12974e\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has the Government made towards its manifesto target of having 7,500 Modern Apprentices by June 2006?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d863bded84314e1c92ac27abc1422968\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am very, very pleased to say that not only will we meet that target but we will get there a year early. I am, however, sad to say that we are still to get an apology from the National Party, which said on the introduction of the Modern Apprenticeships scheme that: \u201C$42 million is being spent on 3,000 apprentices who will not get any work.\u201D There is a word for that, but I am not allowed to say it here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a0d14b8c666402f9255454a5703b060\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in the last 2 years the Government has spent $159 million more on Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa than it has on trades training, and that since 2000 the funding for non-formal education of the Twilight Golf and radio sing-along variety has increased at 15 times the rate of funding for trades training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5fe00aa42ef4d3a935284f723a84069\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm that, but I can confirm that the National Party said that Modern Apprenticeships were pathetic and that it will get rid of them. That is National\u2019s policy; it does not like trades people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd6d49fc817495fac1331cff5f3fafd\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister\u2019s rant about the National Party in no way addressed the specific question that I asked. I asked him to confirm the comparison of funding between the w\u0101nanga and trades training. I would ask that you ask him to answer that question or, at the very least, to address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccaad6f8fb5e4aa3a64f3e6bd069ac8c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister did address the question by saying that he did not know. If the answer had stopped there, there probably would not have been a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d57084aebdde4e158e83f4f8db55e085\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm that there would not even be a Modern Apprenticeship Training Act if it had not been for New Zealand First?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cac9407548a47f08725fa625c4fd938\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike the previous questioner, I am prepared to take that member\u2019s word on that. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d63e36e1b9f4ccbb324695dac92cded\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d90ddeb818b34c6d9e5a3b941abb9b1b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I do. I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228af38434da504109a7445dade484fef2\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The point is: if the member has withdrawn the statement that he made, will he actually answer the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a613950dafe040ff8bcd0beb69954fa7\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm what that honourable member said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f9d7878d69f47d5a7e75968aeb91121\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister willing to increase the target of industry training\u2019s Modern Apprenticeships to 10,000, as advocated by the Industry Training Federation, and by United Future in its Budget bids; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b5f5904bbb476797e86db3d131303f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The member will see the answer to that at the appropriate moment in the fullness of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba36b1e87fbb48019cfde7f315508f7f\u0022\u003EEducation, Associate Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E6. Hon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT), on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a325ea37dd2a4374b25cc2707e3d4c3b\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT),\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Associate Minister of Education, the Hon David Benson-Pope; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00226189234dd7cb42a69e3dd82bd8492378\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226189234dd7cb42a69e3dd82bd8492378\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes, because he is a hard-working, conscientious, and, therefore, very occasionally somnolent, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb9a155bf4d490da5b08f7a9005bc32\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister says that Mr Benson-Pope is a hard-working and conscientious Minister, can she confirm the belief that he rises at the crack of noon each day, works hard until the early hours of the afternoon, and then comes into the House to have a well-deserved sleep\u2014is that his general work pattern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bbbf8267b714381b35fe32307dd609b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member does not emulate the work habits of Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb288eb1e184cd094f42bda1a7fd3ce\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister consider that the Associate Minister of Education\u2019s attempts to cover up the scholarship debacle, his refusal to admit any problems with National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) results, and his telling parents concerned about NCEA to \u201Cget over it\u201D were all results of his napping on the job just a bit too much, and does she intend to give him any time to readdress his work-life balance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220037d0fea10b4e6a89e826599a911fdb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister and of all my colleagues, I can say that the Prime Minister is prone to ring up some of her colleagues in even the early hours of the morning, and that, I think, includes the Associate Minister of Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022833cc3d1efee4c2d939f6069866758e1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Prime Minister\u2019s nocturnal habits may be of interest to the Labour Party, but in no way do they address the question asked here about what she intends to do about giving Mr Benson-Pope the sort of rest that he clearly needs, with his having been a Minister now for at least 4 or 5 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022758deb685fda4480a3e1aa463d5e827b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the Minister certainly addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022021365a351034e3fb50ef5cb92c3715e\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that the New Zealand Teachers Council reported to the Education and Science Committee yesterday that large numbers of schools and pre-schools are not forwarding names of staff for police vetting, as they are legally required to do, and will she guarantee that the Associate Minister of Education will resolve that problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239476f7dcdb64df397401ac4e60b757d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of the first issue, but I am sure that the Associate Minister will take that up with his normal due diligence, as befits a person representing the great Dunedin South electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4d0133de28645dc8a4cc0af768f4ace\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Do Mr Benson-Pope\u2019s sleeping habits explain the NCEA mess; if not, does he do more harm when awake or asleep?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229db48c92530e4245b47601e3bcfd5898\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is working very hard on the NCEA scholarship issue. The NCEA itself is not under scrutiny in terms of the basics of that scheme. A number of issues need to be considered in relation to that. Regarding the scholarship issue, the member should tread very carefully. The main issues that emerged as a result of the recent study in relation to scholarship showed up things that have been happening for years in terms of the pass rates before scaling, in a number of science subjects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217c533a620d54d51a3afc7515812cb8d\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Can we take it from the Prime Minister\u2019s vigorous defence of Mr David Benson-Pope that he is one of her more effective Ministers, even when he is asleep?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259444923a4eb4166bea0ffa089cc1fb3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Around all his waking and sleeping moments, Mr Benson-Pope is loyal to the principles of the Labour Party. I just wish that that member had been when he was a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002236529e6f2b5643ebb62c57b0f626efc5\u0022\u003EAvian Flu\u2014Preparedness\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f68a4ba1a784b2bb4ad958dbfb12f37\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is she confident that all health providers are adequately prepared for an outbreak of bird flu and have \u201Caccess to the required personal protective equipment\u201D as required by the National Health Emergency Plan: Infectious Diseases; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002292297789f3d8435a9c3f74862b1350c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292297789f3d8435a9c3f74862b1350c2\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Health: Yes. Personal protective equipment is currently stocked by all district health boards and is sufficient to protect health staff against an outbreak of bird flu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faa367f5f4d8459a9276d3b397312b85\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Do we actually have a national stockpile, or do we just have enough equipment to cover average usage, as the Minister stated last week in reply to my written question; how much do we have in the stockpile?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e12d3026fd1c4fa78359adbf4c64cbf2\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Although we have enough currently to meet the needs of all health workers, the Government is exploring the ordering of further supplies, the details of which I am afraid I am unable to make available to the House because we are in commercial negotiations, and if I give either price or volume, then we will destroy those negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225565540335fa48fa8f2668e9a1e7d186\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister clarify whether a vaccine to protect against bird flu has been developed yet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c402a1f24c422fb5c3cd44846787ed\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, there is no vaccine to protect against bird flu. However, that issue is being pursued by the World Health Organization. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a0b0869b9d8447cb8d56200db8ea230\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the extremely limited stocks of antiviral drugs that we have in New Zealand\u2014the 20,000 treatments in the stockpile\u2014have already passed their original use-by date; and can she assure the House that the new stocks of antiviral drugs that have only recently been ordered are not also second-hand, outdated stocks that have passed their use-by date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1ce1867c4934ca697f971db3c25d370\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm either the first or the third part of the member\u2019s question, but I can confirm that the increased doses were not recently ordered. The issue was first brought to Cabinet informally last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0346a444ac04cedbdaf8d1433a2f582\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It seems to me that a Minister of Health should be able to answer a question as to whether some very crucial antiviral drugs that we need to protect us from bird flu have passed their use-by date. Could I get an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc7d4d2dd1bc4dd5b7e747a0ed995c9d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister addressed the question. I do not know whether the Minister wants to add any further comment, as he was about to rise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022476217f1f41948dab39a19a7404bee5b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I regret not. The primary question was not about viral drugs; it was about personal protective equipment. Had the member stuck to the primary question, I would have been able to produce for her, I hope, good answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cacccc5dc924af69734bc80dc448b31\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Now that we are safely past Mr Hide\u2019s question No. 6, may I invite him to return to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0fa2769bc884b54a4e1ea279d6eb653\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c97992a0d24b46a6de6c7a4d058d10\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Further to the Minister\u2019s response, I point out that my question asked whether the Minister was confident that all health providers were adequately prepared for an outbreak of bird flu, and that the only way to be prepared is to have stocks of antiviral drugs, because that is the only protection\u2014along with masks\u2014that can be provided. So could the Minister please answer my question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ce02bdbfb0042b5913852a2aa8ff647\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister addressed the question. The member may not be satisfied with the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dc3b6c6d7724ea9b7a5a36c6009d695\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the Minister\u2019s earlier responses, is she saying that she has no idea how many of the essential surgical masks are stockpiled; if so, if the bird flu were to arise in the next few weeks or months, would she expect front-line medical staff to risk their lives by working without sufficient antivirals or even without adequate protective masks, and why has she not learnt from severe acute respiratory syndrome that we need to be prepared?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eced8e7d9c0b43cebb86ba386de0f915\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have tried to advise the member that right now we have sufficient stocks for health workers. In the event of a pandemic, the need for protective equipment goes wider than health workers; it goes into the community. We do not currently have sufficient stock for that. That stock is being ordered. The quanta are significant; they are not, however, publicly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b08222abe3814afe8872f60f65edfadc\u0022\u003EPaedophile\u2014Supervision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f62d58f16ded4aedbe66ab3ce22dc5b7\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: What did his department mean when it wrote to the people supervising Lloyd Alexander McIntosh on 10 December 2004 that: \u201CIt is essential we manage the costs of this contract within the expectations agreed by both parties.\u201D, and on 23 December 2004 that: \u201Cthere is a need to manage this contract within financial expectations.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002270a0a92214e6408f919b62c90396fed7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270a0a92214e6408f919b62c90396fed7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E What the department meant was that it has a responsibility to manage taxpayers\u2019 funds prudently while not compromising public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84d54a425614709b9441ac3e1b3bbbd\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: When the Hon Phil Goff was looking after that portfolio as acting Minister earlier this year, did the department advise Mr Goff that the people who know McIntosh best said that any cut in his supervision would be unsafe and unwise, and that staff had grave misgivings; and did the acting Minister seek to discuss this directly with those people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269cf36cffb0349358f234664affe293d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that there were discussions. As I understand it, an agreement was reached before Christmas. Then, after further discussions with the provider in January, it was agreed that the appropriate level of supervision while Mr McIntosh was outside would be two people. That is highly appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ace7637ccaf4d0c9b845507c7ed38e4\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen on sentencing options for serious child sex offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d80dac045f584f938ef8af18c2eb459e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report that changes by the previous National Government in 1993 allowed sex offenders like Mr McIntosh out into the community, despite the warnings from health professionals about the consequences of doing so. I have seen another report, from the Minister of Justice, that serious child sex offenders can now, under the Sentencing Act of 2002, receive preventive detention, which means that they can be kept locked up for life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d46dfd47b204c75a28abbdbfd829dba\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister explain the department\u2019s view, issued by his colleague the then acting Minister, Mr Goff, that halving McIntosh\u2019s supervision was appropriate to prevent him reoffending, when McIntosh himself warned that unless he had two supervisors he would be a risk to the community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e8afea67f4483fa2d8b735228d7641\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, it was because the department had further discussions with the provider\u2014as was the right thing to do. Secondly, the comments made by Mr McIntosh had nothing to do with the increase in supervision. Mr McIntosh has been making those comments for many, many months and years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224618a68c7a8e495789a1349bde559651\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: How much will this high-risk paedophile cost the taxpayer over the next 10 years, given that the cost of his extended supervision has already skyrocketed to $350, 000\u2014a figure that is four times what the taxpayer would pay to have him locked up in maximum security?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb735c6314f4278afed95550c7d84be\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is hard to know what might happen in the future, but the member is right, it is a considerable cost. The member\u2019s figure of around $350,000 is pretty accurate, but this is the cost of keeping someone like Mr McIntosh well supervised. If we compare this with what the previous National Government did, it let people like him out into the community, under changes to the 1993 Act, without taking into account all the things that people were saying, which were that it was the wrong thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0410320b8be42e88d74c60f1fc43cd2\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that the first warning about the recidivist behaviour of Lloyd Alexander McIntosh was given in 1993 by a health professional who worked with him, that National Ministers ignored that advice but sacked the health professional who gave the warning, and that the result of releasing this man in 1993 without controlling supervision was that he immediately sexually violated a 2-year-old child, and can the Minister contrast that lack of control and supervision with what the Government is spending now to make sure Mr McIntosh does not do it again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221201287b2b4747718fea3ae001724360\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm the facts. The reality is that the previous National Government let this man out, against the advice of health professionals. The National Government sacked the person who gave it that advice. As a result, Mr McIntosh went on to reoffend. Now we are in a position where, to try to keep the community safe, we are spending an enormous amount of money using the supervision type of regime. Many of these things would not have had to come before Parliament had the previous National Government listened to the advice that it was given by health professionals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022511b0308d89749c0ac6da48e5da73e73\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise the House what the agreement was that was reached before Christmas, whether Mr Goff, who was at the time acting Minister in his stead, was advised by the department that the people who knew Lloyd Alexander McIntosh best said that cutting his supervision in half would be unsafe and unwise, that staff had grave misgivings about it, and that the Minister did not even attempt to telephone those people about those concerns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287bec323acb242b9bf45f6ab489e79e7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, an agreement was reached before Christmas. There were further discussions right through January until the end of January when there were further discussions with the provider and there was an agreement. I cannot understand what that member is now on about. What has happened is that this offender is now under the supervision of two people when he is out in public places. I thought that was what the member wanted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3bb4c9dbed4f3682fe67cb6f473342\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The first part of my question asked the Minister to advise what the agreement before Christmas was. I was quite specific in asking that because, having got all the official papers, I cannot locate any suggestion that there ever was an agreement before Christmas. I am looking for the Minister\u2019s explanation of that because I think it is a matter I might have to pursue further, if there was such an agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a24aef0674f44e529cdd4a7255481a45\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I advise the member that I have been advised that there was an agreement before Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de765e0aaa1549c198a119e3e01288ca\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: To do what? That\u2019s what I asked. What was the agreement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d54805761b8b4e24aeea5b98fe69e106\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Shall we have a little tango across the House, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa9ab1b6b80406d8e056c9324b8a57d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister please continue with his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273a46ff9c5b3457ea190c3588ad50ef7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that there was an arrangement that there would be supervision outside the facility with one person. Further discussions took place with the provider towards the end of January, because of the intervening Christmas holidays, and there was then a decision made and an agreement reached that there would be two people supervising Mr McIntosh. That is appropriate and I thought it was what the member was after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257c3ebec5eae4f8181d432de9d64795c\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What is this Government doing to ensure that the provider, whom I have not named yet in the House, is not extorting more money out of the taxpayer by lobbying MPs, feeding the media, and colluding with McIntosh, who has already been reported in the newspaper as having written to the department saying that he wanted to be supervised by two people at all times or that he would go to the media if he did not get his way\u2014because, many of us assume, Mr McIntosh likes having a butler, a footman, and a doorman to take him around town and look after his every need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7cc74f19fee4745bd90a05cd6e8901c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I would find it extraordinary if members of Parliament colluded with the media to try to put pressure on the Government, using public fear. I would find that a strange thing and I cannot imagine that ever happening before. What I can say is that this supervision regime is costly and it is because it is important to ensure public safety as far as this person is concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227962bd46ca274fa78d76d05468bc4bb1\u0022\u003EFamily Group Conferences\u2014Youth Offending\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f8285a19c24fd38c495ebfaaedb505\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF): Is she satisfied that family group conferences are successful in reducing youth reoffending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00229b692fb61fad4f4abe1cf145f195afe1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b692fb61fad4f4abe1cf145f195afe1\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, family group conferences, which deal with the 25 percent most serious young offenders, continue to be successful in reducing the rates of youth reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae7b70c9d34443d69d5e66437f72fada\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Then why has the numbers of young offenders facing their second, third, fourth, fifth, or sixth family group conference all increased dramatically since 2001, with a handful even on their seventh, eighth, ninth, and 11th last year; and what makes her think that another family group conference, or even another 10, will succeed when the first one or two have failed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb950944af7245659cb6b91b60e0acb1\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to make two points, if I may, in response to that question. The figures that the questioner has used actually included a number of reconvened and reviewed family group conferences, so they cannot be compared with new family group conferences. But leaving that aside, even if there are repeats, which there are for 10 percent of the family group conferences that have three or more conferences, and 18 percent have two, the remainder have only one. These family group conferences do hold the young person accountable for their actions, and that is a critical part of changing patterns of behaviour. They also, if required by the victim, involve the victim, and it has been consistently reported that this is a much more satisfactory involvement for the victim of the crime, in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226acd53b2c3d847a1a715ce019f2de2d0\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister know that the short, sharp detention model used in other parts of the world is not more effective?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b9b7f5ce09434494ef05166af9c7f6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The family group conference restorative justice model that is used in New Zealand is viewed internationally as a best-practice model and literally has been picked up overseas, including in Australia, throughout the United States, and the United Kingdom. In the last year alone, Child, Youth and Family Services has had delegations from Hong Kong, Brazil, and Ireland to examine, with a view to copying, the successes of the family group conference model, and delegations from China and Singapore are expected this year. Other countries are giving up alternative models and following our family group conference model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e7cc55260ac4b0ab5fcd3c914dc30ed\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How can the current rules regarding family group conferences be said to be effective against youth reoffending when one individual has had at least 16 youth justice family group conferences, and when will she accept the evidence and introduce a cap on the number of conferences available to individuals before they automatically have more serious action taken against them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022844efb3d38344a1f819d843556444dc3\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As with the previous questioner, the member\u2019s figures actually include reconvened and reviewed family group conferences and are not comparable with the number of new family group conferences that are being held. Leaving that aside\u2014but it is important to have facts as the basis of the question\u2014it is an important process for holding young offenders accountable, and involving the victim in the way that person likes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdba310ff0d642c1ab0896bde1338e45\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the National Party\u2019s answer to this question\u2014corrective training\u2014was scrapped because it had a 92 percent reoffending rate within 12 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d9cefd3f7414a04858f3b4145ee111a\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister has no responsibility for anything to do with the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228978c7a2bcbb4c35a44710c607d7ece4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I agree. The first part was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022039476f936c441f4921cf180062fa277\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What the Minister does have responsibility for was scrapping the previous corrective training programme, because her predecessor was consulted on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e953d0e7cc48128a723f41eddb4325\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may address that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aef95204d75b4df197f9ea6e3cad4b55\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. The previous model was rejected because of its total failure, as is being evidenced by the rejection of similar models throughout the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c45faebd9ffa48ae903294e3eb652950\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that despite the effectiveness of the family group conference model, a number of deficiencies have been identified\u2014in particular, the lack of family group conferences happening within a reasonable time frame; lack of sufficient mental health, drug and alcohol abuse and anger control programmes; and a lack of adequate monitoring of the outcomes of those conferences; and can the Minister tell the House what she is doing to address those deficiencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb610604f87449f8acedd25dd4e3bc2e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I certainly do agree with the concerns that the member has raised. In fact, they were identified in the baseline review process as being part of the gaps in services that we would expect if we wanted much more satisfactory action from Child, Youth and Family Services family group conferences. As a model they are satisfactory, but, as with any good model, there can always be improvements in the operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0822c7b4f7543ecaec8074c47ec4d31\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think the custom of the House has been for Speakers to allow two questions to be answered. I was just wondering whether the Minister would tell us what she is doing to address those deficiencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ee3f42cb09443b8155fd7e9e03a0d7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not a point of order. In respect of supplementary questions, members are entitled to ask one supplementary, which the Minister addresses. On occasions there is more than one question involved in the supplementary question, but it is at the Minister\u2019s discretion whether that is addressed. The member is perfectly entitled to ask another supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed0037bc89446d8bbb8a1fbe78efcd5\u0022\u003EKenneth Wang\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it is acceptable that four burly thugs who burgled $30,000 from Mr Manchao Li should laugh all the way through a family group conference, safe in the knowledge that they will not be punished and do not have to pay back a cent, and what is the Minister\u2019s justification for this outrage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d6b9cf5c004f77a014b1396fbea6af\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member probably knows, family group conferences are just one of the options available through the youth justice system; it is not the only one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022893454f6766c49ada48b2466623b31c7\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that one of the criticisms of family group conferences, which emerged from her own department\u2019s report released last year, was that commitments made by the offender to apologise or recompense the victim were often not followed through, and does she agree that this failing jeopardises the very purpose of restorative justice, and sends the message to offenders that there are minimal consequences for their actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200feaf15888c475f82cb21913e6f32e0\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I certainly do agree with the assertion made in the member\u2019s question about the findings of the report, and that is why this Government has taken that report seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc40e74e6224c30852c58b9cf4acd12\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: When will the department put into practice policies to empower and invest in families so that they can make effective decisions that address the offending that is often related to drug, alcohol, or violence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227367b0c4f7b8417bb3d02b39d1afe73b\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will be aware, there are is a wide range of policies delivered by a number of departments and agencies that do just that\u2014invest in children, young people, and their families, as a cornerstone of our communities. But, as identified by the previous questioner, there has often been a gap in access to specialised services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217495f1995b84a3eaa8cb2273846a814\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain to the House what she actually intends to do so that taxpayers\u2019 money is not wasted on those out-of-control young offenders, such as the person we have heard about who has attended 16 family group conferences, and who does not take a blind bit of notice of them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225022de52eaa7469caed65b9179ca5050\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I have indicated in answer now to three previous supplementary questions, that example is not of new reconvened family group conferences. They are family group conferences that have been reconvened for another reason other than a new offence. The family group conference does hold the person accountable, it does involve the victim, and it is not the only part of the youth justice system that is available in the case of young offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a77b1da4bd14a9d8c6811b7903a6c92\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister was asked what she intends to do about the young people such as the person who attended 16 family group conferences. We are not litigating the 16 conferences, we are actually asking her to tell us what she intends to do, and she did not address that in her answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bdb782551f64c5b89b39bc18442551c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: When a member asks a question with an assertion contained within it, it is perfectly open to the Minister to answer the question by disputing the assertion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205001122201b471593782d7a5be812c1\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is entitled to dispute the facts on any question. The second part of the answer, I think, addressed the first part of the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243cc4d5041b3456abeb1df8c88314c6a\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the view of Principal Youth Court Judge Andrew Becroft and others that youth justice family group conferences need to be handled by an organisation with specific responsibility for youth justice, because Child, Youth and Family Services\u2019 statutory role to protect children means that social workers are more focused on being the young offenders\u2019 advocates rather than making sure they are made responsible for their crimes; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66d2f5a3bff4ac68f4054c9dfa720dc\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: On this particular point, no, I disagree with Judge Becroft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9041335bae9437a971906fde0b4e5f2\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to the Minister\u2019s answer to my previous question, can she now tell the House what steps she intends to take to address those deficiencies that have already been identified?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db207fd9e1be4633924d5b24c7791fba\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As part of the ongoing work of ensuring that the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services is able to deliver all its legislative and policy services in a way that is satisfactory, a substantial increase in funding has been allocated, changes have been made in service agreements, and there is a constant monitoring of the implementation of the baseline review recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a8d372558fd4f3a84182a1f1b3217a0\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Are victims who are asked to participate in family group conferences of offenders who are already on their second, third, fourth, or even their 11th conference made aware of the fact that these previous attempts have failed to stop offending; if not, does she think that victims have a right to know that facing their offender in a group conference is not likely to make any difference, based on previous behaviour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225687a5268615496d836b96a81f7d009c\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Frankly, I do not know, but I think the member has raised a very good point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022742291a54fd64b04990371b0fb8e306f\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an answer to a written question to the Minister that shows that the number of offenders on their second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth family group conference have all dramatically increased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a72e1918eb974edeb5eb5507d4adb099\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022417fcf86c09f48d79cce126627dd966b\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety in Employment Act\u2014Application\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022203cb3cf90884563b5076c6b18631c50\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Labour: Has she received any reports on the application of the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992 in all companies operating in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c411f0b7905d4704ae7c082a05849af5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c411f0b7905d4704ae7c082a05849af5\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Department of Labour provides reports and advice to me on the application of the Health and Safety in Employment Act on a range of issues relating to companies in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0ece407f20146a893f658031c1c68c4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable to the Minister that a principal organisation such as Carter Holt Harvey, for example, who engages contractors for a specific task or project, is exempt from occupational health and safety responsibilities, and that all those responsibilities fall on the contractor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022380c010737ef438983185dcb16dfab32\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is not correct to say that the company is exempt. For a prosecution to occur in New Zealand there has to be a natural person or a legal person in New Zealand who can be the focus of the prosecution. Where a company is not registered in New Zealand a prosecution could proceed against an individual working for that company in New Zealand, but not the company itself. Of course, there are also other actions that can be taken where work is not being undertaken in a safe environment, including the issue of improvement notices, and prohibition notices actually stopping the operation of the plant or factory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f1155c18894fe39ea0582c60f8d2f2\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports that would indicate how New Zealand workplace injury rates compare with Australian rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205b229921b4046888f1b9b1359d1f4ff\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. I have received a copy of the sixth report to the Workplace Relations Ministers Council on comparative performance monitoring of the Australian and New Zealand occupational health and safety and workers compensation schemes. The report indicates that for the most recent figures available for the 2002-03 year the incident rate of injury and disease in New Zealand remains lower than the Australian average, at 11.8 claims per 1,000 employees, compared with an average of 16.1 claims per 1,000 employees across Australian states.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a41ab2670de4ea3b0033e93fafa7065\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister answer this question specifically: is it acceptable that an Australian-based company that is operating here in charge of an operation and has a serious accident, is to be exempt from our occupational safety and health legislation, and will she tell the House categorically, yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022132d6dc629934e59a3a8601eb0f91e0e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: If I may repeat the answer I gave in the primary question that did, categorically, without any qualification, answer the member\u2019s question. Nobody is exempt from the health and safety in employment legislation. The ability to prosecute where a company is not registered in New Zealand is limited to an individual in New Zealand, rather than the company itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9bf90100cf34e75b4d402695952486b\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Can I take it from the Minister\u2019s response that an Australian-based organisation in charge of a group of people\u2014and in this case a platform collapsed, a man fell from it, the platform hit another man, and debris from that hit another man\u2014is exempt from being held to account for such an accident, and can I take it that that is what the Minister is telling me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022375d2b2cdf464d38ac77e5e1799122d8\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: For a prosecution to occur in New Zealand there has to be a natural person, or a legal person, in New Zealand who can be the focus of a prosecution. Where a company is not registered in New Zealand a prosecution can proceed against an individual working for that company in New Zealand, but not against the company itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022425b9390bc23497ab6cf0cba550e9cdb\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter that states that Carter Holt Harvey Ltd, Riteway Rigging Ltd, and Macarthur Engineering Pty failed to demonstrate acceptable levels of competence and good engineering practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e5a3387ed14470bb18bbc51be62c145\u0022\u003ECourts and Justice System\u2014Student Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc29b4a5262d49779f6ca8733ff1d7a0\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Courts: What initiatives has he undertaken to assist developing understanding of the courts and justice system for students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002248a42f8556644ee294d41d963c93c519\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248a42f8556644ee294d41d963c93c519\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Today I launched an educational website called Access to Justice. That can be used in secondary schools as part of a social studies course and civics programme. It has information about how our courts work, how legislation is developed, and what happens when someone goes through the courts. I have also publicised open court days that are being held throughout New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e811c4dde61d4c2c93c728267a1a2c49\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Is the site relevant only to teachers and students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffdc7edd00624ded93c59fb18b1e480e\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I encourage all to take advantage of the website as it clearly sets out the structure of our justice system, gives examples, and shows the principles that underpin our justice system. With knowledge, people will have confidence in our justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e49a54ab1e7a45a6b69a6d71797c76b0\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Is the House to understand from this question that the Labour Government is proud of the fact that an increasing number of young people have come to have an understanding of the courts and justice system; if so, is that the reason why this Government is so soft on crime, George Hawkins is still the Minister of Police, crime is out of control, and an increasing number of young people every year get to obtain a developing knowledge of our courts and justice system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206e51636fce04cedb64a7c0052f919df\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to say that this Government has taken firm action on justice issues. When the previous National Government was in power the maximum sentence a person could get for life was 10 years. Now the minimum period for parole is 33 years in some cases. The number of people in jail has gone up. This Government has taken tough action on crime. It is important that people have an understanding of how our justice system works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224911cecebc394859a632c76fd5644bc0\u0022\u003EQuestion No 12 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00225a89fdf969014c26ba1eaa842689c391\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a89fdf969014c26ba1eaa842689c391\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question is set down to the Minister of Forestry. I note that he, along with most members of the Government, is not here today, so I seek leave of the House to have the question carried over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00226496d3644bf948f3a9cb003cca799814\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226496d3644bf948f3a9cb003cca799814\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The member cannot refer to the absence of members. If the member had asked his shadow Leader of the House, who is a member of the Business Committee, he would know that there are people away at select committees today who are counted as being present for the purposes of voting. He cannot refer to the absence of members, otherwise I shall keep referring to the absence of most of the members of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a093467cabe4440a03f4a8ca8990aa3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a valid point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00223ac7a76b97c841e49a6abef57a5d5d2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ac7a76b97c841e49a6abef57a5d5d2e\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question is set down to the Minister of Forestry. I seek leave to hold the question over until he is in a position to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c951002651c2449a9e065bf93fdf0d04\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to hold the question over. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290415ff98cb04d19802b71f7e90fb9e8\u0022\u003EForestry\u2014Export Potential\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a059ed35b40f490cb95b0a76a9d13b49\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Forestry: Does he agree with the statement of the Minister of Industry and Regional Development that: \u201CForestry has the potential to be New Zealand\u2019s largest export earner.\u201D; if so, when does he think this will happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002264d0f42b05b6490ba227b8a852de51bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264d0f42b05b6490ba227b8a852de51bb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Forestry: Yes. I am advised that the Minister of Forestry always agrees with the Minister of Industry and Regional Development. He finds the Minister to be wise, intelligent, and committed to New Zealand\u2019s economic development. The potential is there, because there is an increasing amount of timber available for harvest, and there is huge potential to add value on shore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225430892d157444e79a54cfc8455f36df\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: How does the wise Minister of Forestry then reconcile that answer with these facts: since Labour took office in 1999 new plantings have plummeted from 40,400 hectares per year to a record low of 10,600 hectares per year\u2014our third-biggest export earner is in free fall, and the Minister maintains he is wise, and sits there and fiddles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224de66060dcc74ffaab665f05d731bebc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Skilfully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3c0b0a81ca409c94d769feb0391d4c\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: Aw!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229801017be614ee59e6253c37ecec35f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister addressed the question. The member may not be satisfied with the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fef74a0248ae46c9922104445641106a\u0022\u003EHon Matt Robson\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Labour-Progressive Government doing to capture the potential of the forestry industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb5af867f3674cbf8d6f0c31745444b7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I just so happen to have some of this information before me. The Labour-Progressive Government has, in contrast with the previous National Government, which shut the Ministry of Forestry down in March 1998, set up a partnership with the forestry industry\u2014the wood-processing strategy. That has, for example, built desperately needed regional roads to access forestry production, established a centre of excellence for wood-processing training and education, developed a European market for high-quality New Zealand furniture, developed joint-venture research and development for wood products, and implemented a market access programme\u2014and there is more good news to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022107d0c52bf374edf9cc83c9eaf101ae5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That answer was too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aac73f429ac446dfa11e83d92502a55f\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Why will this dodgy Minister not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b79ee3cf60f4511955d4eb0e24d889b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please withdraw that comment? I heard the word \u201Cdodgy\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235faa6d712384308bc7e69d4b9b20872\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Just yesterday that word was ruled in order when it was used by a Minister in answering a question in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bec9002f2f476482fb6b3ec7a70f03\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was not. I suggest the member consult his Hansard. There has always been a difference in this House between describing actions as \u201Cdodgy\u201D and describing the person as \u201Cdodgy\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bf74ad8ba0b43a7bbc206fab7931a77\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please withdraw the word \u201Cdodgy\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e01544cba90246389cdabbb08ff5df47\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. Will this wise Minister who has been engaged in some dodgy activities please explain why new plantings have plummeted to record lows, and, instead of treating the industry with arrogance and disdain, answer the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee371175a731495d9e84f0a094e9ad5a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: With great delight. New planting has been falling since 1994, long before the Labour-led Government came into office. The new planting rate has tended to come in peaks and troughs. The last trough was during 1987 to 1991, and before that it was during the 1940s to the 1960s. New planting is mostly driven by economic factors, including a booming agriculture sector, which has meant a lot of land has been retained in agriculture rather than planted in forests. That has its benefits, of course, as we have had the strongest continuous economic growth for a generation right across every region. What a great Government we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f72296d88e34e8fbd7a7a1be12f4553\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Why will the Minister not just acknowledge that the main cause for the decline is that this Government intends to introduce a land use change - tax and a deforestation tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022715bbebaf3874535a857b84287684172\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002224bf56f52cb24e35a83d16eae3f7be8e\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e16ba8f29a54cedbfc00fb9e0a50daa\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002202210618b30b47fe92c0f907f4043383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202210618b30b47fe92c0f907f4043383\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Ng\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill be now read a third time. I stand to acknowledge the significance of this day for the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa, a number of whom have joined us today in the galleries of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe passage of this bill enables the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa to move forward beyond the historical grievances they have suffered at the hands of the Crown. The bill is equally significant for the Crown and for the people of this country, and it enables the restoration of the honour of the Crown. It represents a further step in the journey towards the reconciliation of the relationship between the peoples of this country and, importantly, between Ng\u0101ti Awa and the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis bill brings to an end the longstanding and significant grievances of Ng\u0101ti Awa, and settles all their historical treaty claims. The historical background to the claims of Ng\u0101ti Awa makes for sombre reading. It provides an account of New Zealand\u2019s history wherein Ng\u0101ti Awa can be said to have been faithful to the spirit of the treaty partnership, in seeking to build strong relationships with its treaty partner. But the Crown did not reciprocate that behaviour. This bill contains a formal apology to Ng\u0101ti Awa for the breaches of the treaty acknowledged by the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Awa commenced direct negotiations with the Crown in 1996. The main components of the settlement package were finalised in October 2000. A deed of settlement, the formal Crown offer to Ng\u0101ti Awa to settle the claims under the Treaty of Waitangi, was then developed by the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Awa negotiators. A significant majority of Ng\u0101ti Awa participated in a postal ballot to confirm their support for the settlement. Accordingly, representatives of the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Awa signed a deed of settlement at Parliament on 27 March 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe passing of the Te Runanga o Ngati Awa Bill last night enables Ng\u0101ti Awa to reconstitute its existing entity in order to receive the settlement redress. The passage of this settlement bill is the final hurdle to enable the Crown to transfer the settlement redress to Ng\u0101ti Awa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis Government is fully committed to progressing the settlement of valid historical treaty claims. That is a two-way process\u2014a process that seeks to restore a set of relationships that have not been maintained or, in some cases, even activated, and a process that seeks to resolve all the historical treaty claims of respected M\u0101ori communities, and to resolve longstanding and deeply-felt grievances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f02cb51ce3e4dceb9a5160493b744a2\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Over the course of a decade the Crown has developed and refined a process of settling historical treaty claims. That process is now leading to a steady stream of comprehensive settlements being reached. This Government has concluded four settlements in the past 2 years, and is currently in active negotiations with some 12 groups. We have also made some major inroads into progressing claims in the far north and streamlining the treaty settlement process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Crown has withstood challenges in the Waitangi Tribunal and the courts concerning its policy approach to settlements. Both the tribunal and the courts inquired into the Ng\u0101ti Awa settlement itself. I am pleased to note that those inquiries found in favour of the Ng\u0101ti Awa settlement process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ENow that the settlement process has been developed and has stood up to scrutiny, we are well placed to move forward, and this Government is committed to making positive progress in settling historical claims. We have continued, in the claims settled in this bill, and will continue in future settlements, to negotiate with the interests of all citizens of New Zealand in mind, so that as New Zealanders we can all be very proud that significant grievances are recognised and settled peacefully and within the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI am pleased to acknowledge all of those from Ng\u0101ti Awa and the Crown who, over so many long and arduous years, have given their all to enable us to get to this day. Their passion and commitment have greatly assisted the process. There are so many who deserve some acknowledgment. They know who they are, and they are entitled to feel great pride and satisfaction in their achievements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EIn particular, I acknowledge Professor Hirini Mead, chief negotiator for the settlement of the historical claims of Ng\u0101ti Awa. I know that Professor Mead has worked extremely hard to bring about this day. His leadership and commitment have greatly assisted this settlement process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge my predecessor, the Hon Margaret Wilson, for her fortitude and leadership in seeking the resolution of Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2019s claims. I acknowledge my colleagues the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, the Minister of Conservation, the Minister of Finance, and the Associate Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, and all the Crown officials who contributed to this settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI encourage all New Zealanders to read the historical account outlined in the Ng\u0101ti Awa deed of settlement. Indeed, it outlines a tragic history, but it is a history that I think we all must know if we are to recognise our common heritage and learn from it in order to move forward in a unified way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the ancestors of Ng\u0101ti Awa, and extend best wishes for the future to its elders, descendants, and negotiating team. Their journey ahead looks bright, and I wish them well in their endeavours. The dignity, wisdom, and judgment they showed in the settlement process will, I believe, stand them in good stead as they enter the next stage of their journey forward. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022512e24fd77104197979617d77c785849\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022512e24fd77104197979617d77c785849\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of the National Party to indicate our support for the passing of this settlement bill today. We do so in an environment in which some of our political opponents would want to say that we do not have the right attitude towards settlement or, indeed, towards the Treaty of Waitangi and the consequences that flow from that. So I want to take a minute or two to discourage those views and to put very strongly on the record the reasons why the National Party strongly supports settlement of historical grievances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe do not accept that the concept of the Treaty of Waitangi is about the partnership of two peoples. We see the treaty as being a point from which two peoples got together to become one nation. That might seem to be a very subtle point; nonetheless, it is a very important one. The genesis of our thinking might be best expressed in the M\u0101ori proverb, first brought prominently to the attention of the nation by Whina Cooper back in 1990\u2014\u201CHe aha te mea nui o te ao? He tangata, he tangata, he tangata.\u201D What is the most important thing in the world? It is people, it is people, it is people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIn settling grievances like this, it is simply a grievance brought by New Zealanders, who are M\u0101ori, to the Government, which now stands as the Crown, and the discussions that result from that grievance being laid on the table coming to a point where there is settlement. We accept that the settlements can never fully compensate for the loss\u2014the loss on many levels\u2014or for the full amount of grievance that might be taken. We acknowledge the generosity of Ng\u0101ti Awa and other settlor groups who accept that the Government is doing this in good faith. We will continue to seek settlement of treaty grievances on that basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EHowever, it does raise the issue of how a settlement is mandated by those who are the recipients of it. I have expressed, a number of times now, my concerns about the very low levels of the vote in favour of settlement. It worries us on this side of the House that only about 30 percent of those eligible to participate in the vote that ratified the settlement chose to do so, and of those a lesser number actually accepted it. Although the Office of Treaty Settlements might want to say to the Government: \u201CGo ahead with this anyway, because the rest of the people are so happy they don\u2019t feel the need to vote.\u201D, it does leave the uncomfortable feeling that at some time in the future there may be successive generations or future generations who say: \u201CWell, our people didn\u2019t sign up to this. We weren\u2019t happy at the time and we\u2019re not happy now.\u201D That potentially threatens the idea that settlements are full and final, that there is a leaving behind of the grievance in the moving forward to a new future. So I want to put it very clearly on the record that this Parliament understands and believes firmly that what is before us today is a full and final settlement, and that Ng\u0101ti Awa will not be back for more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere are also another couple of issues that I should raise. There was in this House a considerable amount of kerfuffle over the preamble to this bill. It is the first bill, I understand, that has a full text in M\u0101ori. It was, therefore, very important for that text to be reflected in the English translation, and we took some time to insist that that was achieved. That should not be taken in any disparaging way by Ng\u0101ti Awa; rather, it should be accepted that it was the start of a new way of doing things. Our point simply was that as we have had so many years of disagreement about what was meant in the Treaty of Waitangi, surely we should not have a bill settling a grievance that flowed from that time also creating the possibility of difference in the two understandings. I think we have now got to a position where we can say that that is not the case and that this bill is well understood to mean, in both texts, what exactly each understands of the other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EA question was raised yesterday in the debate that established the r\u016Bnanga organisation that will receive the settlement assets. There was a suggestion in that debate that this new entity was being exempted from many of the encumbrances, one might say, that go with trusts, companies, and other entities that hold assets on behalf of other people. I have some sympathy for the view that was expressed by the Hon Richard Prebble\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e301bd6a3a4a76a22b1f0a834f1957\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226643f34a03484ce098323da731796723\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but in essence, I say to Mr Parekura Horomia, what we are doing today is handing to a group of people assets that are theirs. The choice as to how those assets are administered, nurtured, and managed in order for them to grow belongs to those people. For too long, I think, M\u0101ori have had an excessive amount of Government involvement in their governance. Trust boards, and such, over the years have had pretty onerous duties put on them by this House. So a freer structure is something we are not too concerned about. But I say again for the record that it would not be appropriate for future generations of Ng\u0101ti Awa to come back to this House and say that the structure the House gave them in 2005 failed them\u2014because it is not this place\u2019s structure; it is Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d571961ccb1347d788ead91d60676cf4\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: The Act might be wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ebeb714343f44a49905085b720ade7e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Act is not wrong, of course, because it was Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2019s Act that was brought here. It was a member\u2019s bill, as the member will remember. It was not a Government bill, and that is the important thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think I should conclude by saying to Ng\u0101ti Awa that the National Party wishes the iwi every success for the future. We are greatly encouraged by the way in which the plans for the future have been expressed to us, and we would want to support Ng\u0101ti Awa as New Zealanders as much as any others. We wish for them a governance structure that makes absolutely certain that the best of this asset will flow to the young people of Ng\u0101ti Awa in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ETo those who took so many years to negotiate on behalf of the iwi, I say that they certainly have my respect. It is no easy thing to dedicate years of one\u2019s life to a cause that at times must have seemed distant and lost. Today must give great joy to the heart as it comes to fruition. But its fullest fruition will be seen in the many years ahead when the benefits flow to the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00229c8a9ad6b013437b9d73da84816aa8a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c8a9ad6b013437b9d73da84816aa8a0\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E E tika ake an\u014D, ki te mihi ake an\u014D i a koutou ng\u0101 t\u016B pakeke o Ng\u0101ti Awa. Hirini, koutou katoa. Ka nui te mihi. E tika ake an\u014D, ki te mihi ake an\u014D ki a r\u0101tou k\u0101re i konei, ng\u0101 mea kua haere anake ki te w\u0101hi mahana e mau ake an\u014D \u014D t\u0101tou tupuna. Ki a koutou m\u014D t\u014D kaha rawa, e mihi kau ana. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[It is apt that I acknowledge you once more, the elders of Ng\u0101ti Awa, Hirini, all of you. It is a huge privilege indeed. It is fitting as well to acknowledge those who are no longer here, the ones who have merely gone on to the place that comforts our ancestors. I acknowledge the enormous effort that you have all contributed. Well done, and greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI stand here today in support of the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill. This bill gives effect to the deed of settlement between the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Awa regarding the final settlement of all Ng\u0101ti Awa historical claims. The preamble to the bill sets out an agreed historical background. It also includes an acknowledgment of treaty breaches and sets out the Crown apology for those breaches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe history of the Ng\u0101ti Awa claim has already been well documented by my colleague the Hon Mark Burton, and I thank him for the effort he has put into his new role in the short time he has held it. I also acknowledge yourself, Madam Speaker, at this stage, just in case I forget, for the effort you have put in and for the steadfastness you have shown in coming through this. I acknowledge my colleague Mita Ririnui who is overseas and cannot be here today, and sends his best wishes. I acknowledge all those colleagues who supported the great achievements yesterday in this House, especially my M\u0101ori colleagues; I mihi to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn the bill the Crown acknowledges that the confiscation of approximately 250,000 acres of land rendered Ng\u0101ti Awa virtually landless. This constituted an injustice and was a breach of the Treaty of Waitangi. In the 19th century in particular, the treaty was breached with monotonous regularity by New Zealand Governments. Not merely was there a failure to exercise protection; the Crown was at times at the forefront of the process of dispossessing M\u0101ori of their language, lands, culture, and much less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThis Government recognises that putting right these grievances, acknowledging wrongs, and providing redress is a necessary phase of our history and of moving forward. It is not possible to fully compensate Ng\u0101ti Awa for all the prejudice and loss they suffered. Settlements must take account of other developments and commitments in our society today. It is to the credit of Ng\u0101ti Awa that they have negotiated with the Crown on the basis of those wider interests. Settlement in the bill includes financial redress of $42.39 million. In addition, it recognises that Ng\u0101ti Awa has traditional historical, cultural, and spiritual associations with particular places and sites. The bill enables Ng\u0101ti Awa therefore to exercise kaitiakitanga over those sites, and to also take advantage of any commercial management opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI would like to commend the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for its thorough examination of the bill, and for its commitment to reporting the bill back to the House within a concise 5-month time frame, and I commend all of those officials who have supported this historic journey. I congratulate the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on reporting the bill back to this House through the medium of te reo M\u0101ori; a recognised language in this House that some people struggle with and get nervous about. I want to say that quite clearly, because Ng\u0101ti Awa people have held on to their language with no help from the Government or from anybody else, and the strength in it is recognised. It is as strong as the tenacity that they have shown in the journey towards finalising this settlement on behalf of all their people. This is a significant action, particularly when we consider that the M\u0101ori language itself was the subject of a landmark claim to the Waitangi Tribunal. That claim resulted in te reo M\u0101ori being recognised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThis bill is not solely about completing a treaty settlement; it is also about building and maintaining the capability of Ng\u0101ti Awa, and ensuring sustainable success in relation to contemporary times. The gathering at the Hui Taumata saw that, and I am amazed at times when people discuss the exemption or the ability in relation to governance and management of groups like Ng\u0101ti Awa. I can certainly assure people that they are more than able to look after their affairs by themselves, for themselves, and that the Government is sometimes nothing but a conduit to help move them forward, which is all it should be. But, certainly, when nonsense pervades this House in the sense of trying to say that we should study it through exemption because those people are incapable, let us wake up and smell the roses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill strengthens the relationship that exists between the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Awa. The Ng\u0101ti Awa people have shown good faith. On this great day, which celebrates the great ancestor of people like Mr Brownlee\u2014St Patrick\u2019s Day; the spirit of the Irish\u2014 I say that it is fascinating when people say: \u201CMake the M\u0101oris behave themselves and let\u2019s all live like M\u0101ori or New Zealanders.\u201D That is right! But when I say to the Scots and the Irish: \u201CLet you all be English.\u201D, they get nervous and they stutter. They do not like it, and I wonder why. But it is about redress, it is about their history, and it is about their culture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EBeing a M\u0101ori from a small place called Mangatuna, I recognise that the Irish will get drunk in the streets of this country and will drink green ale today, but they will also celebrate their eponymous ancestor, St Patrick. Toroa, who is these people\u2019s ancestor, and the great people who brought their waka M\u0101taatua here, have a lot to celebrate this evening, and it is timely that it is on the same day as other people, in another country a long, long way from here, still celebrate their cultural connection, their roots, and their great ancestor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ESo, on behalf of all M\u0101ori, can I mihi to all the Irish and wish them well for today. I tell them to celebrate widely, and I ask the police not to lock them up just because they are merrymaking. I say to the Ng\u0101ti Awa people that they should remember that, on this day that the Irish celebrate, they have a lot more to celebrate. I thank my colleagues for supporting the bill. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00229a9cc94413334bcbb2ba9a6731a6c629\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a9cc94413334bcbb2ba9a6731a6c629\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First): \u003C/span\u003E\u0100, e ng\u0101 rangatira, ng\u0101 kaikawe o t\u0113nei kaupapa m\u014D Ng\u0101ti Awa, e kara m\u0101, e kui m\u0101, koutou i haere mai i te hau k\u0101inga o Ng\u0101ti Awa, mai hoki i te maru o te maunga tapu a P\u016Btauaki, n\u0101 reira haere mai, haere mai, haere mai. Haere mai ki t\u0113nei Whare. Ka kite mai i a koutou, te pu\u0101waitanga o t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 k\u0101kano i t\u014D mai i \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua, ng\u0101 t\u016Bpuna n\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 rau tau. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 hoki koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E[Welcome to you the chiefs, to those who negotiated this settlement on behalf of Ng\u0101ti Awa, and also to the elderly men and womenfolk. You have come from your home winds and from the sheltering mantle of the sacred mountain P\u016Btauaki. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to this House. To see you all means that you have brought to fruition one of those seeds that the elders and ancestors of the past sowed last century.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EOn behalf of New Zealand First\u2014and I reiterate the point that we are the only non-aligned political party in this House\u2014I rise to speak to the third reading of this bill. This bill will see the culmination of what has been a long and arduous period of endeavour for the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa towards a satisfactory claims settlement. The bill records the acknowledgment and apology given by the Crown to Ng\u0101ti Awa, the detail of which is articulated in the deed of settlement dated 27 March 2003, and it gives effect to the settlement of historical claims as agreed between the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Awa. It also passes governance responsibility of the assets from this settlement to the entity that the majority of the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa have indicated support for. We note that the level of support was deemed sufficient by Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Awa to proceed with the signing of the deed. New Zealand First supports the timely and satisfactory settlement of claims to the Waitangi Tribunal, whether by way of hearing or by way of direct negotiation. This bill is the outcome of an agreement reached by Ng\u0101ti Awa and the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EYesterday, when this House debated the third reading of the Te Runanga o Ngati Awa Bill, a concern was expressed by a member for the ACT party with regard to the apparent absence of any list of rules that the new governance body would be required to follow. It was his view that, in the absence of such a document, there remained a real possibility that the legislation could lead to further claims, which would thus put into question the durability of the present settlement. I want to assure that member that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee would not have allowed the bill to proceed to the stage it has reached today without first sighting the charter and being satisfied that Ng\u0101ti Awa themselves have resolved to adopt such a charter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAlthough New Zealand First does not support the reason given by the ACT member to question the durability of this settlement, we also question its durability, but for different reasons. As a consequence, New Zealand First cannot lend its support to this bill in its present form. We have two reasons, notwithstanding the desire and consent of Ng\u0101ti Awa. The first reason is with regard to clause 13(3)(a), which defines the \u201Chap\u016B of Ng\u0101ti Awa\u201D. In particular, I refer to those hap\u016B identified in the bill as \u201CNg\u0101ti Awa ki Tamaki Makaurau\u201D and \u201CNg\u0101ti Awa ki Poneke\u201D. New Zealand First believes that the inclusion of those two entities as \u201Chap\u016B\u201D for the purposes of this bill is outside the traditional concept of what establishes or creates a hap\u016B. It is well known that the social structure of M\u0101ori is made up of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, which is a number of wh\u0101nau, and iwi, which is an amalgam of hap\u016B that have a common ancestor. In the case of both those hap\u016B, we are advised that their members descend from both the other hap\u016B and iwi ancestors of Ng\u0101ti Awa. Essentially, this Parliament is being asked to include them in this bill to ensure that those members of Ng\u0101ti Awa living in T\u0101maki and P\u014Dneke are assured access to the benefits that this settlement will bring to Ng\u0101ti Awa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EDuring the submission process, one submitter pointed out that every member registered to those two hap\u016B held whakapapa links back to their traditional hap\u016B within the Ng\u0101ti Awa tribal area, in the same way as do other Ng\u0101ti Awa descendents who are resident elsewhere in the world. Notwithstanding the rationale for including those two hap\u016B in the bill, and, in particular, the wish of Ng\u0101ti Awa, it is important to remember the following points. Firstly, the establishment of those hap\u016B can be regarded as a creation of expediency and convenience. Secondly, should Parliament be vested with the authority to create new hap\u016B? Thirdly, what of other Ng\u0101ti Awa descendents living elsewhere in the world? Why should they be expected to connect with their hap\u016B at home while residents in Tamaki Makaurau and Poneke have the convenience, and even the choice, to connect with either? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First acknowledges the intent of Ng\u0101ti Awa to have a governance structure that ensures that their people can easily access the benefits of their settlement with the Crown, but we do not believe that what is proposed is a matter for this House, or, indeed, for the Crown. Of further concern to New Zealand First is our belief that to legislate for the creation of hap\u016B, as proposed, will pose the question some time in the future as to whether the Crown can legislate for the creation of hap\u016B over and above the traditional M\u0101ori social structure, as determined by tikanga M\u0101ori. If it cannot, why was this allowed to happen when so many M\u0101ori MPs are in Parliament at this time? The creation of hap\u016B as proposed in this bill is not the responsibility of Parliament, nor should it be. Its inclusion in this bill is not essential, and if it were to be excluded, it would not affect the settlement or its durability. Furthermore, Ng\u0101ti Awa could still include those groups if they so wanted. It is their business, and theirs alone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI want the record to show that the following M\u0101ori MPs, all members of the New Zealand First caucus, do not accept the right or authority of this House, and, indeed, the Crown and its bureaucracy, to legislate for the creation of hap\u016B: the Rt Hon Winston Peters, Ron Mark, Jim Peters, Bill Gudgeon, Edwin Perry, and Pita Paraone. What is more concerning is that I know that a number of M\u0101ori MPs on the other side of the House agree with us but, for reasons known only to them, they have decided to remain silent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe second reason that New Zealand First will not support this bill is the inclusion of the words \u201Cthe principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D. Although I have articulated New Zealand First\u2019s concerns on previous occasions, I think it is important to reiterate those, relevant to our doubt about the durability of the settlement. This settlement can still proceed without those words. We believe that their inclusion affects the possible durability of this settlement. I also point out to this House that it was suggested that those words\u2014\u201Cthe principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D\u2014be included in the Foreshore and Seabed Act, and that it was at New Zealand First\u2019s insistence that they were removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI need to ask where the principles of this Government were in relation to a bill that it perceived to be of such importance to this nation that it was quite happy to exclude those very words. Yet in this settlement it is quite happy to include them, which puts into question and doubt the possible durability of this settlement. We believe that the retention of those words will jeopardise the durability of this settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I offer these words to the present and future leadership of Ng\u0101ti Awa: today they begin a new journey that will require them to lead their people to economic and social destinations, some of which they may never have been to before. I tell them never to forget to look behind them from time to time to ensure that the people they lead are still there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, e Ng\u0101ti Awa, haere i runga i te huarahi i whakapai hakapai \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u016Bpuna, i whakat\u012Bmata mai t\u0113nei kaupapa. Kua pu\u0101wai te k\u0101kano i whakat\u014Dngia e r\u0101tou m\u014D koutou me ng\u0101 tupuranga kei te heke mai. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E[So to you Ng\u0101ti Awa, go forth on the path that those ancestors, who began this settlement process, cleared for you. The seed that they planted for you and the coming generations has blossomed. Congratulations.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00221fe4eee3b7104a80b6c0bb06a5988d38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fe4eee3b7104a80b6c0bb06a5988d38\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E May I say first that I am a bit of a stickler for the rules, so I find it rather difficult to see members making speeches to the galleries, which is against the rules. At the same time, I can see why members are doing so: this is a historic settlement. Perhaps I can skate round the rules and say that I, too, wish that Ng\u0101ti Awa will do well. This is a substantial settlement of, I think, over $40 million. Not only is that the case but it also includes some land, and the bill provides\u2014for the first time, I think, in one of these settlements\u2014a right to a marine quota, so the total value will rise in the future. As people tend to look back at these speeches in the Hansard, let me acknowledge\u2014and in this respect make it unanimous in the Parliament\u2014that what happened to Ng\u0101ti Awa was a disgrace. There is no doubt about that. For the Crown to have declared people to be rebels when they were not is one of those things that I guess one cannot apologise for often enough. The ACT party acknowledges that, although in fairness one has to point out that previous Parliaments have acknowledged that there was a grievous wrong and have made attempts\u2014generous by the standards of those times; we should not measure them by today\u2019s standards\u2014at settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EAt this point I say that I wish the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa well. They come from the Bay of Plenty. They are a people with considerable resources, and with the amount of money in this settlement I hope they will do well. There has been criticism of comments I made yesterday. I am afraid I still think those comments are accurate. Indeed, I have been informed since then that the reason this settlement came before us as a private bill rather than a public bill is that civil servants also pointed out that the legislative structure the Crown was putting in place for Ng\u0101ti Awa to administer this $40 million was woefully inadequate. We pass protections for beneficiaries, infants, and the like with regard to assets, yet in this area we have failed to do so. I do think that that is a possible future grievance, so I have some doubts as to whether this bill will turn out to be a permanent settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI listened very carefully to the remarks made by the New Zealand First member Mr Paraone, who said things that I think have a great deal of merit. How on earth can this Parliament start to define different hap\u016B in a bill of this sort? One becomes extremely suspicious about that. I was a Minister when this treaty process first started; in fact, I was the Minister who had to do some of the original negotiations. I started from a point of not having as much knowledge as one would like, and I remember asking the officials how many iwi the Government believed there were in New Zealand. The first answer I got was that it was the same as the number of canoes, plus one iwi that came down in a ball of fire. I was later told that there were 24 iwi. Then the number went up to 48, and by the time I finished as a Minister, the Crown was recognising 120 iwi. Now it seems that the inflation of the number of iwi will become an inflation of the number of hap\u016B. That is not an area where the Crown ought to be going, and it is certainly not something we should put into statute law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThat raises an objection of the ACT party to this process\u2014an objection we have made in relation to every claim settlement. This process is actually an abrogation of Parliament\u2019s rights. The Crown puts forward these bills, and then says to the House that they cannot be amended in any way. As a parliamentarian I object to that. When we see in these bills measures that are contrary to public policy, we are prevented by that ruling from making amendments. If New Zealand First had been able to put forward the amendment it suggested, I certainly would have supported it, and perhaps a majority of the members of the House would have realised that there was a mistake. But instead we have bills put forward in this way. I say with the greatest of respect to Mr Brownlee that National and Labour, the two old parties, have formed a club on these settlements. The speeches we are hearing today are no different from the speeches we heard when National was in charge. I objected to the process when National was putting such settlements forward, and I still object to it now that Labour is putting them forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI now turn to another criticism that New Zealand First and the ACT party have in common. I point out that the ACT party has actually raised this objection for longer than New Zealand First has, but I am glad to have the support of Mr Peters. We object to the phrase \u201Cprinciples of the treaty\u201D. It is a meaningless phrase. It has caused enormous difficulty to the courts, which are unable to interpret it. There is now a growing body of academic literature that criticises this House for passing bills containing that phrase, undefined, and turning over to the courts a matter that is for Parliament to determine. That is why the ACT party has never voted for a bill that contains the phrase \u201Cprinciples of the treaty\u201D. We have two members\u2019 bills\u2014and I think Mr Peters has one\u2014to try to define clauses that contain that phrase. I have listened to Mr Peters and other members asking in vain for Government members to define what those clauses mean.They have refused to do so and we, as legislators, should not pass a clause when no member of the Government is able to tell us what it means. That is a further reason why we will not be able to vote for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI come now to another matter, which Mr Stephen Franks drew to the attention of members at the Committee stage. Again, it is very bad lawmaking. Part 4 of the bill requires the Environment Court and other Government agencies to give recognition to spiritual values. We do not know what they are; no one knows what they are. The Environment Court then gets claims regarding taniwha and the like. In a secular State, even one that respects religion, those sorts of phrases should not be contained in legislation. For that reason we will vote against this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, I still wish the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa all the best with regard to their claim\u2014and that does not come from a desire to get a new job. I just want them to do well. I hope that they will be able to manage the settlement well, that it will enable the grievances of the past to be put behind us, and that it will turn out to be a very good thing for Ng\u0101ti Awa and the people of the Bay of Plenty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u002216e19bfb1d7849008ca178bf61d9efc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216e19bfb1d7849008ca178bf61d9efc2\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E He mihi aroha ki a koutou katoa, Ng\u0101ti Awa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E[A fond greeting to all of you, Ng\u0101ti Awa.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe direct negotiations, or deals, for Ng\u0101ti Awa are just about over. With the passing of this bill, Ng\u0101ti Awa will complete their settlement and, with the establishment of the r\u016Bnanga yesterday, will be able to pursue their interests independently without any further interference from the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens understand that there was little negotiation with the Crown over the amount of financial compensation eventually provided for in the settlement. Ng\u0101ti Awa presented its views, and the Crown came back with its own non-negotiable quantum. It is worth noting for the nation as a whole that Ng\u0101ti Awa are owed about 68,000 hectares of land, a situation arising from the historical confiscations and wrongful takings of the past. Under this settlement, Ng\u0101ti Awa will be returned only about 64 hectares of that 68,000 hectares still owed. That is less than 0.1 percent of what was taken from them. All New Zealanders should be filled with immense gratitude at the considerable generosity of Ng\u0101ti Awa in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EFor that the Greens sincerely congratulate Ng\u0101ti Awa. Ng\u0101ti Awa have been in negotiations with various Governments of various flavours since 1980. It is a settlement that has been 25 years in the making, with 10 of those years spent in the direct negotiations process. On reflection, the constant calls by some political factions on both sides of this House that the settlement process should be sped up and capped is entirely bizarre. Of course, it should not take an iwi 25 years to negotiate a settlement, especially one that does not return much more than the smallest possible fraction of the massive quantity of property and taonga that was illegally taken. Of course, restitution to iwi for the loss of life, hardship, and injustice suffered by them at the hands of the State should occur swiftly, without delay, and without undue cost to them, the aggrieved party. Perhaps if the negotiations process was a just process, whereby iwi and hap\u016B determined and actively agreed to the restitution process, it would never have taken 25 years for Ng\u0101ti Awa to achieve their compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe have to remember that it is the Government\u2019s unilateral process that holds up settlements. It is the agonising pauperising of the iwi, whose funding is contestable and too hard fought for and who have to borrow against their meagre restitution, that holds up settlements. It is the unreasonable demands of the Office of Treaty Settlements, which puts its policies before the interests of iwi, that hold up the settlement process. On no account should any iwi or hap\u016B be undermined by, let alone held responsible for, the failure of the direct negotiations process to operate swiftly and effectively. That responsibility lies directly within the sphere of the successive Labour and National Governments that devised it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI will also talk very briefly about independence. Yesterday Mr Prebble criticised the r\u016Bnanga structure for not fitting his view of having appropriate trust accountability. He is entitled to his view, but it is a shame he holds it because he is wrong. He and others in this House forget that this restitution\u2014the lands, rights, properties, and money that will be returned to Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2014belongs to them collectively as their collective property. Frankly, they can do with it what they want. They do not owe anyone but each other. They are not accountable to the country or the public\u2014only to themselves and their mokopuna. Their lands and taonga were stripped off them in the name of New Zealand as a whole. Restitution has now been made on behalf of New Zealand as a whole. Any interest by New Zealanders in Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2019s financial affairs now ends. We now owe it to Ng\u0101ti Awa to leave them alone to pursue their interests and needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens are highly critical of the settlement process\u2014that will come as no surprise to anyone\u2014when iwi have no authority over it. We understand that the necessary boundaries in a negotiation should be jointly negotiated if they are to be fair, but in the settlement process that has simply not been the case. The Government has set its policy with a \u201Ctake it or leave it\u201D approach. In our view, it is not fair negotiation but unmanaged bullying. The principles of fairness and justice that supposedly guide the settlement process are not a true reflection of it. It is a political process in which the Crown sets the framework and M\u0101ori are continually expected to compromise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe are very pleased that Ng\u0101ti Awa have, as part of their settlement, a number of statutory acknowledgements, deeds of recognition, protocols, place name changes, and transferred sites. But the cultural redress package, and its protocols and advisory committees, is a poor substitute for the recognition of the treaty relationship, which, in the end, is the only means by which true restoration for the breaches of te tiriti can ever be restored. Providing for Ng\u0101ti Awa to express its views to Ministers on various issues gives very little practical effect to te tiriti and simply waters it down. The breaches of te tiriti involve the stripping from M\u0101ori of any real self-determination. Nothing has been done in this country to resolve that, and, in fact, the opposite continues to occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EAt the first reading of this bill, some months ago, the House was considering the Foreshore and Seabed Bill. At the same time that we were considering the Ng\u0101ti Awa legislation and the compensation being offered to Ng\u0101ti Awa for the unlawful taking of their lands, other legislation was proceeding that I signalled would again wrongfully confiscate land within the rohe of Ng\u0101ti Awa. Politicians on both sides of the House who argue for a time limit on the settlement process, or who either directly or indirectly blame iwi or hap\u016B for their struggle in trying to achieve some compensation for the crimes committed against them, surely see the absurdity of their position. If they do not want the settlement of grievances to continue, they should stop stealing M\u0101ori land and thereby creating those exact grievances for the future. It is not exactly rocket science. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens acknowledge that this settlement is the best that Ng\u0101ti Awa could have secured under the current settlement policy, and we sincerely congratulate Ng\u0101ti Awa on pursuing that restitution through a demanding and unjust process. We acknowledge that the settlement provides a measure of independence for Ng\u0101ti Awa, and we are very grateful for their tenacity and generosity to our country. The Green Party wishes Ng\u0101ti Awa the very best for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022767950ab741c45dd9291a1aea867b9c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022767950ab741c45dd9291a1aea867b9c2\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to greet the Ng\u0101ti Awa representatives who have joined us here this afternoon, and to support the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill. The bill records the acknowledgements and apology given by the Crown to Ng\u0101ti Awa, and it mandates the settlement of historical claims as agreed by the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Awa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAfter reading the agreed-upon historical account, I have to say that what I found most devastating was the fact that generations have missed out on the use of substantial resources because of a death that was severely dealt with at the time, with multiple arrests, two trials, imprisonment, and execution. Therefore, setting the record straight and cultural redress are as important as the financial and commercial issues. The responsibility of the r\u016Bnanga to manage the resources from the settlement, which we do need to acknowledge can never be truly full, on behalf of all Ng\u0101ti Awa is an awesome challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI hope and pray that those charged with this opportunity do so mindful of those who looked forward to this day, but never lived to realise it. The real challenge is not just what happens in the next few years, but to invest in such a way as to have the effects of the decisions felt by grateful lives in two to three generations from now. Thinking and acting with an intergenerational mindset takes a lot more courage than any quick-fix, short-term approach would require. However, on that matter, United Future feels confident that the intergenerational journey that brought Ng\u0101ti Awa to this point today will continue to serve them as they plot a way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe congratulate Ng\u0101ti Awa today on their determination, their patience, their hard work, and their graciousness regarding this settlement. It is with great pleasure that we support the third reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3920959b6a04118bc439147c5259022\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3920959b6a04118bc439147c5259022\u0022\u003EMAHARA OKEROA (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Before I start, I crave your indulgence. I understand that under the Standing Orders the use of \u201Cyou\u201D relates to speaking directly to the Chair, but we do have a customary practice of acknowledging the people; otherwise, if we speak with our back to them they are reduced to the mere presence of k\u0113hua [spirits], which they are not. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 an\u014D t\u0101tau te iti me te rahi me te katoa. Koutou e kopekope an\u014D mai kai roto i t\u0113nei Whare i raro i te t\u0101hu k\u014Drero, mai r\u0101 an\u014D i runga i te tikanga e whakapuaki mai i te taha a r\u0101tau me te taha o t\u0101tau nei. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E[And greetings once again to us all and everyone else in our various roles. Regardless of our Standing Orders about addressing each other, I seek your indulgence to address the people directly. Greetings.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003EI do not want to make you h\u014Dh\u0101, because we did have a go at doing that yesterday, but I do want to look at some of the ingredients that relate to you being here. Firstly, I think we need to pay proper homage to those people who are not here. A r\u0101tau r\u0101 kua t\u012Bmata ai o r\u0101tau n\u0101 pikitanga i runga i ng\u0101 taumata ki te m\u0101t\u014Dtoru me te nuinga o t\u0101tau nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E [A vast number and a majority of us have begun the climb to the tops.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003ESo I think we need to do that in a way that remembers their contribution\u2014not just to state that they are not here but to say also that they probably, like other members of other iwis who have been before us, will celebrate the whakat\u016Btukitanga o t\u0101tau nei hiahiatanga kei roto i te Whare P\u0101remata, ahakoa ng\u0101 k\u014Drero whakapuaki mai e \u0113tehi o ng\u0101 mema ki te whakah\u0113 mai i \u014D koutou nei whakaaro kei roto i te pire nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E[and to express what we want ourselves in Parliament, regardless of the views expressed by some members who oppose your thoughts in this bill.]    \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003ESo to all the people who were originally part of the Ng\u0101ti Awa wh\u0101nui, [greater Ng\u0101ti Awa,] who are not here, a mihi atu. [I acknowledge you.] We all have those pou tangata, pou w\u0101hine, [mighty men and women,] who over time are no longer with us, and we need to pay that respect because they constituted the generation before you all who sit here, and they probably, in their own way, burnt the most kei roto \u014D r\u0101tau nei wairua. [of what was inside of them spiritually.]\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E I now want to talk about the statements about this journey that is taking place. Kei roto i te reo M\u0101ori, kua t\u012Bmata ng\u0101 h\u012Bkoitanga i runga i te ara e kore e mutu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E[To say it in M\u0101ori, the walk upon the road that has no ending has started.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003EThis is not about an ending. It is not even about a beginning, I suppose, in terms of te ao h\u014Du, [the modern world,] it is about the continuation of the aspirations of your people with respect to what is happening today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003EI do also, seeing I am a keen student of history, take issue with my honourable colleague Parekura Horomia. He mentioned that we are celebrating St Patrick\u2019s day, and said that St Patrick himself was an Irish eponymous ancestor. Well, he was not. He was actually a Scotsman. I am very, very aware of who the eponymous ancestor of Ng\u0101ti Awa is, however, as there is a certain relationship between our ancestor Awanui\u0101orangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003ESo having set that aside, I want to address another dimension, which I do not think has been addressed with any fullness so far. Given everything that has happened, both in the past and in the present, is it nothing less than a minor miracle that Ng\u0101ti Awa representatives are here at all. Because when we talk about the treaty partnership, that in itself, on one level, tends to disguise a whole range of other essential qualities that are missing. Let me first of all visit the word \u201Ctrust\u201D. It is an extraordinarily difficult challenge for the tribe, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau who suffered a huge consequence of a historical misdeed or breach, to then be able to, and be expected to, demonstrate trust in the Crown. I find that to be, as a claimant, an almost insurmountable hurdle. Because in order to establish that trust between two, at some times, adversarial groups, there must be some demonstration of goodwill. So to arrive at the stage where we are now, kei te noho koutou kei konei, [you are here,] would have required the group that was appointed as negotiators to get above and beyond that which caused the haehaetanga o te whatumana, [feelings to be divided,] in order to engage in a process that could be seen to be extraordinarily difficult, and at times overwhelming. So from that point of view I congratulate the representatives, on being able to get to a stage where, in spite of the piki me ng\u0101 heke, [ups and downs,] they can, at last, engage with regard to the resolution of a historical grievance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003EI listened with some intent to a speaker who said we have some difficulty with the expanding number of iwi and hap\u016B. There were different numbers when he initially had charge of the process, and I am thankful it is not current any more. Now, the state of that knowledge is not actually our fault, because we are very sure about how many hap\u016B we have, how many iwi we have, and how many waka we have, which is not just seven. So that becomes part of an accepted mythology, if one likes, about the reality that other people paint for us. So this journey highlights that it is not about conforming to the edict \u201Cgo forth and multiply\u201D, but, rather, that some credence should be paid to the fact that we do have what we say we do have. In that regard, the fact that we have packets of settlements that apply to Ng\u0101ti Awa, kia ora koutou, [well done,] whether it is above the sea, below the sea, or on the land\u2014it is just a little part of the original estate that was confiscated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003EI wish Ng\u0101ti Awa well. I totally support the idea that you are going to be the navigators of your own destiny, unfettered and untrammelled. As I have found out in my experience, there is nothing like being totally responsible to M\u0101ori beneficiaries. It is not by any means of the imagination an enviable task. So those people who find themselves at the helm, kei te kei o te waka, [at the helm of the canoe,] the responsibility that is inherent in that is absolutely awesome and absolutely demanding, and sometimes one thinks: \u201CIs it worthwhile doing?\u201D. So Ng\u0101ti Awa, n\u0101 koutou katoa, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. [it is all yours, congratulations.] I shall leave the closing address from our party to the eloquence of John Tamihere. I wish Ng\u0101ti Awa well in their ongoing journey. Kia ora mai t\u0101tau katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E[Good health to all of us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8e6e0f4dcc440e3923dcddecb8a2586\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8e6e0f4dcc440e3923dcddecb8a2586\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National): \u003C/span\u003EE P\u016Btauaki e mihi nei ki a koe me tou ake mana, mai i te maunga o Tongariro. Ng\u0101 mihi wh\u0101nui ki a koutou e Ng\u0101ti Awa huri noa ki a r\u0101tou kua ngaro atu me koutou e noho mai nei i t\u0113nei Whare. E mihi nei ki a koutou, ki a t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E[P\u016Btauaki, I, Tongariro, greet you and your very own mana. Greetings to you Ng\u0101ti Awa, to those of you present in this House, including those who have gone from us. I greet you and all of us as well.]     \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI am pleased to speak to the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Awa Claims Settlement Bill. It is a very important thing that we in this Parliament do today. With the passing into law of this bill we will put the legislative stamp on the settlement that Ng\u0101ti Awa have negotiated with the Government in satisfaction of their claims under the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis is an important act in itself by this Parliament, but more important is the significance of the action. With the passage of the bill into law this Parliament gives vindication to those grievances that Ng\u0101ti Awa have sought to set right for generations\u2014indeed, since 1866\u2014when, wrongly, they suffered raupatu at the hands of the then Government, who declared them also to be rebels in their own lands, and when they consequently suffered the alienating circumstances that flowed from that action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis Parliament salutes Ng\u0101ti Awa for their fortitude, doggedness, application to principle, and what was tika, despite rejection by successive Governments. I trust that by this action today a sense of justice is restored to Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2014a feeling that the might of the institutions of the law and the Government can be extended to them when it is right and proper to do so. That is a legitimate right of every New Zealander, not least of Ng\u0101ti Awa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe other side of the equation is that we, the current parliamentarians, by our action today go some way to restoring the honour of the Crown, and that is important. We can speak of the mana of Ng\u0101ti Awa and their status in this place and this land, but we must also be mindful that by the steps we take today we also restore the honour of the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is a country that prides itself on having one standard of citizenship. The injustices suffered by Ng\u0101ti Awa fly in the face of that principle, and that is why it is so important that we as a nation commit and devote our energy and resources to bringing forward the truth of that principle: equality before the law for all New Zealanders, not least M\u0101ori, and not least Ng\u0101ti Awa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want to comment on an issue that was raised by an earlier speaker. Although Ng\u0101ti Awa are entitled to formulate the settlement according to their preference and on their own terms, we recognise that that is their right and that that is an exercise of their rangatiratanga. But in this respect I do, to a degree, support the issue raised by the member Pita Paraone, so I just ask the question\u2014and it is not to be answered today\u2014of whether Parliament should be asked to legislate for new hap\u016B. If Ng\u0101ti Awa wish to recognise their own, because that is their right to do so, why then should Parliament be asked to put a legal stamp on that, if indeed there is some other way of allowing them to recognise their own without this Parliament having to put it into the law? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe other matter I will comment on is an issue raised by the Hon Richard Prebble, who talked about the insertion into legislation of the notion of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. He might reflect on the fact that it was a Labour Government in 1975 that first introduced that notion into legislation, with the passing of the Treaty of Waitangi Act. I am not sure whether he, indeed, was a member of that Government at that time. Be that as it may, it is a fact today that that notion, that principle, that statement\u2014that is, the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014has come into much disrepute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIt may be the fact that New Zealand First has today, for the very first time, voted against a settlement bill that might prompt the Minister to give some thought as to whether future settlement entities wishing to use that statement will perhaps find another way to do it, rather than to have it inserted into an Act of Parliament. It is the case that settlements really do need the almost universal support of this Parliament. So it is a disappointment, given that the ACT party, as far as I am aware, has never supported a settlement bill, that now another of the political parties is doing the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, though, I affirm that this is Ng\u0101ti Awa\u2019s day. It is good to see them in full force sitting in the gallery. Indeed, it fills a person with much arohanui for their 14 years of negotiation and, especially, for those who have passed on in the hope of seeing this day come. Again, I congratulate Ng\u0101ti Awa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI think that we in New Zealand are very fortunate that we have found a way to resolve matters of this nature. We look across the Tasman to our Australian cousins. They clearly have some difficulties with issues concerning the first people of that land. Here in New Zealand we have devised a process, a framework, that is not perfect by any means but by which we can steadily work our way through these matters, with a certain amount of dignity and certainly with a lot of good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIt takes a bold and courageous step for a tribe finally to settle its grievances and look forward to the future. Slowly but surely, and hopefully in a more timely fashion under the new Minister, we will see more of these settlements occurring. Fortunately, they are occurring against the backdrop of a great renaissance of M\u0101ori pride, M\u0101ori culture, and M\u0101ori entrepreneurship. We should all be very pleased about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, of course, has had a part to play in this process. I also want to acknowledge the Hon Doug Graham, although when I salute him, and the efforts he put into this settlement, the issue is again highlighted that the Ng\u0101ti Awa settlement has indeed been under negotiation for quite some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI give my congratulations to Ng\u0101ti Awa. I wish them all the best\u2014and I wish us all the best\u2014for the future. Ng\u0101ti Awa has already started to move forward; they have not just been waiting for this settlement, which is good. Clearly, this settlement will add to the initiatives they already have in place, and we can look forward to a better future for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00222e1530c568174be792736c45e88cbf94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e1530c568174be792736c45e88cbf94\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE (Labour\u2014Tamaki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E E te rangatira rongonui, a Hirini, me te wh\u0101nui o koutou a Ng\u0101ti Awa, kai te mihi, kai te mihi, kai te mihi nunui ki a koutou. Kei te tautoko i te mihi i mihia e Parekura r\u0101ua ko Mahara m\u014D \u014D koutou t\u016Bpuna, \u0101, moe mai, moe mai i te moenga roa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E[To you Hirini, the well-respected chief, and to you the multitude of Ng\u0101ti Awa, greetings, greetings, and important greetings to you. I endorse the tributes accorded to your ancestors by Parekura Horomia and Mahara Okeroa. Rest there the ancestors. Slumber on and sleep the long sleep.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI want to commend the last speaker. It is most regrettable that Georgina te Heuheu is no longer the Opposition spokesperson on M\u0101ori Affairs. Her contribution was a marvellous contribution, unlike the one made by her colleague. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EBefore I turn to the bill and commend it to the House, I want to comment on some of the gratuitous contributions that have been made by colleagues opposite. I tried as hard as I could to be awfully commending of the contribution made by the National Party\u2019s spokesperson on M\u0101ori Affairs in the House today. However, if I were to commend him for it, I would be breaching the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 Rulings, and I do not want to mislead the House. The reality is, try as hard as I might to defend the terrible comments made about him by the president of the ACT party, I do think that he is a bright bulb on a very dim tree. So, to that extent, I want to acknowledge him. I also want to note very carefully that his knowledge of treaty jurisprudence is somewhat strange, if not interesting. I strongly commend to him a seminar to be conducted by the Hon Georgina te Heuheu so he can be upgraded in his knowledge of the principle of partnership that has been clearly asserted with regard to treaty relationships by the Hon Doug Graham, leading directly on to the evolution of treaty jurisprudence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI now turn to the position that New Zealand First has taken. Its approach is absolutely shameful, and I can say only that it is an election year stunt. The reality is that Pita Paraone has made much ado out of chairing the Treaty of Waitangi commemoration committee in Waitangi. Today he stood up in this House and said\u2014and I am sure Kawiti, a signatory of the treaty, must be turning in his grave to hear one of his uri say this\u2014that he would not support the principles of the treaty. It is an outrage. Furthermore, I say to Mr Paraone that it is not for Ng\u0101 Puhi to stand up here and to tell Ng\u0101ti Awa what to do. I can assure members that when Ng\u0101 Puhi\u2019s treaty settlement comes into this House, Ng\u0101ti Awa will not be in here banging away. The reality is that they will determine their hap\u016B and their destiny. It will not be that member, or any other person from the north, who will do so\u2014notwithstanding that rumour has it the member is somewhat related. As for the contribution from the ACT party\u2014well, that is a 1-minute silence. That party will be gone in 6 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI now want to acknowledge the contribution made by Metiria Turei in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, when she is here. It is always good to know that there is somebody who lives in a perfect world and who has a total perfect world view of how things should be. She is wonderful at making those sorts of contributions, but I regret to say that the world does not work in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI commend, first, you, Madam Speaker\u2014prior to this incarnation that we see today\u2014and acknowledge the significant work you have put in over the last 4\u00BD to 5 years to a huge number of treaty settlements that are nearing closure. I also acknowledge the fine work done by the Hon Mark Burton in taking over and filling some rather big shoes. Georgina te Heuheu acknowledged that work, and I support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EOf course, I must make a comment about the M\u0101ori Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314c6caa290c4fac9f1ac5e1d8e6f76d\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Why? She\u2019s not here!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2bf73e6e334a1aa7c20e6e42f0fdd1\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: The reason I have to is that I do not know what the policy of the M\u0101ori Party is. At least I know New Zealand First will vote against the bill. That party has six M\u0101ori members, but normally only Winston Peters is allowed to talk. But we do not know what the policy of the M\u0101ori Party is on treaty settlements. We do not know anything about the M\u0101ori Party. However, we do know that a Labour Government delivers, and continues to deliver, to M\u0101ori communities, whether in education, in health, or in here with our fingerprints all over this closure. Was it tortuous? Was it difficult? Yes, it was. Is it hitting closure today? Yes, it is. It is another delivery mechanism. As a consequence, I want to commend Parekura Horomia for championing the entity bill for Ng\u0101ti Awa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI commend the bill, and I now pay a special tribute of acknowledgment to Ng\u0101ti Awa. On a number of occasions I had the opportunity to hear some of the submissions they made at the tribunal. I regret that a lot of their leaders and elders are not here today to witness this closure. We acknowledge them and remember them. However, I do say that they are one of the iwi, contrary to what Mr Richard Prebble might say, that are led by people of significant integrity and credibility. They will be sustainable, and they will go forth and, as Mahara Okeroa said, multiply. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9d1b4befe904904806ee9c9724503dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9d1b4befe904904806ee9c9724503dc\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I first of all want to acknowledge the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa today. I realise this is a historic day for them and that they have fought hard over literally decades to achieve this settlement. But I also want to express my surprise at that bitter speech made by a former Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. I have to say that speeches like that will keep him \u201Cex\u201D for a very long, long time. That was just an extraordinarily wasted opportunity, when he could have lifted aspirations and tones but instead lost that opportunity. I think that is fundamentally why Labour will lose the confidence of M\u0101ori voters up and down this country. In fact, the risk is that the member will not be just a former Minister but will be a former member of Parliament, as he gets booted out by the M\u0101ori voters in his electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would like to turn my attention to, firstly, the fundamental goals of settlement. What are they? Why do we do this, as a nation? It is hugely important that we recognise that we are doing these settlements as a nation, and that it is no accident that when Governments, either Labour or National, enter into settlements, we refer to the \u201CCrown\u201D. It is done quite deliberately, because the settlements are intended to endure across generations. The integrity and honour of the Crown is placed on the record as a commitment by the people of this nation\u2014both M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014that these are solemn testaments to be honoured not just by the Crown but also by the M\u0101ori claimants, and that they are enduring, permanent, and final settlements. The words are not just put in there as a kind of cosmetic dressing. When it is said that the settlements are final, and when the claimants go through a very considered process of ratification, consultation, and so forth, that is intended to be an enduring commitment not just for the current generation but also for future generations. We are settling our history in these claims; we are settling our past. We do that by recording the history. There will always be some disputes, I acknowledge, as to what happened, who did what, and whether something is a true and an accurate reflection of what occurred. Perhaps we should not get too bound up in such detail when deciding whether we support a settlement, because what we are supposed to be doing is looking forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI do want to note the comment made by Mr Shane Jones, who I am sure will be a member of Parliament within a few months\u2014[Interruption] Mr Dave Hereora and a number of other members on the Labour side will be displaced. The Labour Government will promote Mr Shane Jones, and a number of current Labour members of Parliament should be looking in the \u201CSituations Vacant\u201D column. Mr Shane Jones made it very clear that these settlements are actually a 20th century business, and that for the 21st century the aspirations of our country and of all the peoples in it should be to look forward. I thought the whole process of the Hui Taumata was very significant, because of the way in which, unlike the situation in 1984, there was much less focus on the problems of the past and much more focus on self-autonomy going into the future. Labour does not really understand what happened there, ironically. Labour does not quite get it, because M\u0101ori have signalled to Labour that they want to escape the clutches of dependency. They want to escape the clutches of the State and of social welfare, and to build autonomy and independence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022966c13a741814741a7c567ae808c71e4\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: And self-respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae387dbe44314db2b5896c64e6d9f0ab\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and self-respect, because progress does depend on self-respect, both as a people and as individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI also want to say some other things about the nature of these settlements. This issue is not quite as evident in this bill as it is in the upcoming Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa bill, and it is the issue about how we cast our legislation. I have looked at the legislation for Tainui, for Ng\u0101i Tahu, and for a number of other settlements, and what I see is a creeping insertion into our legislation of reference, initially just to the words \u201Cspiritual values\u201D\u2014nothing more than that. It does not go much further than that in this bill. But I have to note, by reference to the Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa bill, that there is a complete recitation there of the myths and legends of Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. Now, I do not deny that those are important to Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, but there is a reason why I am referring to that bill here today. I do not deny that those legends are important. They are important not just to Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. Every young New Zealander needs to understand the myths about the volcanoes coming from Hawaiki and the legends around Ng\u0101uruhoe. But we would not expect to see that kind of reference then recorded in legislation. The reason I say that is that it is not the business of this House when passing public legislation, the law of the land, to put mythology into statute. They exist by their own force of creation and by the commitment in the hearts and the aroha of the people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E We are going into dangerous territory, I believe, when we start inserting into our legislation reference to those kinds of myths and legends. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhy do I make that point? I make it because this nation is founded on the basis that we are all equal under the law and that we are a secular society. That does not mean to say that we are an irreligious society, and it does not mean to say that we have no respect for religion. Obviously, we do\u2014this House starts each and every day with a prayer. What it does do, however, is to say that that belongs in the public domain\u2014in the civil society. Each person and each group is free to practise their religion, their beliefs, and their fundamental driving forces. Those things are part of civil society, and we have very deliberately kept that aspect out of our public laws. That is what it means to be a secular society. It is rooted in the idea of equality\u2014that we will all be treated equally, that we are all free to practise our religions and our beliefs, and that the State does not prefer any particular religion or belief. That is what a secular society means; it does not mean that we are an irreligious society. I give notice to Government members that if they keep putting that kind of reference into legislation, they will break the consensus that rests around settlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to conclude on this point. These settlements are crucially dependent on consensus. They endure because they have a consensus on them, both from M\u0101ori and the general community alike. When we make reference to the Crown in the settlements, it signifies that we want them to endure, and that they are intended to record our past and allow people to build for the future. I want to acknowledge that I wish the people of Ng\u0101ti Awa well in the use of their settlement. I am sure it will build confidence in the iwi, and will allow people to move past the events of the past and into development for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002277795a78bad24ef8b7dc20b1a0f105c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277795a78bad24ef8b7dc20b1a0f105c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JONATHAN HUNT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to say very briefly that the aim of this bill is to record the acknowledgments and apology given by the Crown to Ng\u0101ti Awa in the deed of settlement dated 27 March 2003 between the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Awa, and to give effect to the settlement of historical claims as agreed by the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Awa in that deed. In all the time I have sat in this House, I must say that this is a particularly proud moment for Ng\u0101ti Awa and for the Minister the Hon Parekura Horomia, and for those people involved in this bill. I wish everybody all the best for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022caf7e671c3a24fea93de8143178a3ece\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Ngati Awa Claims Settlement Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 96\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; Green Party 9; United Future 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000422\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022117c45cd88a74e51afd6ee45252473cd\u0022\u003ELegislation (Incorporation by Reference) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002261756bf8f3fc44a895344b0171f06b9d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022af851627c26d4ef7b3a1726f41d4e695\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af851627c26d4ef7b3a1726f41d4e695\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour), \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Hon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Commerce): I move, That the Legislation (Incorporation by Reference) Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I will move that the bill be referred to the Government Administration Committee for consideration, that the committee present its final report on or before 31 March 2005, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time during a sitting of the House, except during questions for oral answer, during an evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 191 and 194(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThis bill corrects an inadvertent addition to three Acts. As at present worded, sections of the Building Act, the Commerce Act, and the Health Act all require those with delegated or statutory responsibility to make material incorporated by reference under those Acts, such as building standards, available free of charge on the Internet. Despite those well-intentioned additions, it has become apparent that those changes have, of course, given rise to concern as to the level of copyright protection afforded third parties, both in New Zealand and internationally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe amendments proposed in this bill endeavour to strike a balance between the facilitation of access to material incorporated by reference, and the legitimate commercial interests of the owners of copyright in standards and other material that may be incorporated by reference. The changes are minor, but they are also urgent. Although the inadvertent addition has yet to take effect, with reference to the Building Act, it will do so if not removed by 31 March 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe Government is grateful to United Future for supporting the bill. Its provisions, as they affect the Building Act, have been improved as a result of our discussions. The Government and United Future both agreed that copyright protection needed to be restored, and I am sure that all members would agree with that. We also wanted to ensure that builders had ready access to standards for design and construction, in a way that did not impose additional costs on the industry. The agreement reached allows precisely that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe Government has also agreed with United Future to consider a further change to the Building Act, in order to require the publication of compliance documents on the Department of Building and Housing\u2019s website to be free of charge, and for the chief executive of the Department of Building and Housing to report to Parliament, through the department\u2019s annual report, on the measures taken to facilitate access to material incorporated by reference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe bill proposes amendments to the Building Act in order to remove the positive obligation on the chief executive of the Department of Building and Housing to make material incorporated by reference available free of charge on the Internet. Instead, there will be a requirement on the chief executive to make available for inspection free of charge at the department\u2019s regional offices, material incorporated by reference in regulations and compliance documents, including standards used by building practitioners in areas such as the use of timber and concrete in the construction of buildings, the design of buildings using timber and concrete, plumbing installation, access for persons with disabilities, and energy efficiency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe chief executive will also be required to make copies of all material incorporated by reference available for inspection free of charge, at the department\u2019s head office at Wellington, and to make copies of all material incorporated by reference available for purchase, either online or by way of request form, at all the department\u2019s offices. In addition, the chief executive may also make material incorporated by reference available in any other way that he or she considers appropriate in the circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe bill also proposes amendments to the Health Act and the Commerce Act, in order to remove the positive obligation on the Director-General of Health and on the chairperson of the Commerce Commission to make material incorporated by reference available free of charge on the Internet. That will be replaced with a provision allowing the director-general or chairperson to make material incorporated by reference available in any other way they consider appropriate in the circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EFurther, the bill proposes an amendment to the Copyright Act. Legal advice has indicated that there are two possible interpretations of section 27 of the Act. That raises doubt as to the status of the copyright of third parties whose material has been incorporated by reference into legislation. Therefore, the bill amends the Act to clarify that the copyright of third parties is not affected when material subject to copyright is incorporated by reference into legislation. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022f27ea7e7407647a39c0a4e3c105f357c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f27ea7e7407647a39c0a4e3c105f357c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E What a disgraceful stuff-up we have in one of New Zealand\u2019s most important industries. The building industry represents $18 billion of economic activity per year, and this Government\u2019s track record on building law is simply appalling. What the Minister has said in the House today is that when the Government rushed through the Building Act last year, it stuffed it up. It made a mess that has compromised New Zealand\u2019s intellectual copyright to its building standards, so we have to rush a bill through the House in 12 days in order to fix that. That is what he should have said. He should have apologised to the House, to the building industry, and to the people whose intellectual property this Government\u2019s botched law has compromised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note that when I asked the Parliamentary Library who has been the Minister in charge of building law under this Government, it contacted the Building Industry Authority. Do members know the response I received from the library? The authority was not sure who the Ministers responsible for the building industry have been for the last 5\u00BD years. Can members believe that? The authority does not know who has been the Minister in charge of an $18 billion per year industry. We know that Mark Burton, George Hawkins, and Lianne Dalziel were responsible for a while. We know that Steve Maharey was the responsible Minister for a while. We also know that Margaret Wilson was the Minister for a while. We know that John Tamihere was the Minister too, and we know that it is Chris Carter now. But are any of those Ministers in the House today to speak on the bill? No, Paul Swain is doing that. It is little wonder that we have this sort of chaos within the building industry when that is the sort of game of pass the parcel that this Labour Cabinet plays in its approach to building issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet us just recite this Government\u2019s record in this important area of law. We know the history of the botch-up with George Hawkins. People were writing to George Hawkins, stating that there was a huge problem with leaky homes, and he did not get the letter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb0dd38524cc426cb96686e415bf5636\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t get the letter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246333e035c744fa191177ba377401e3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he replied that he had not read the letter, and nor, it seems, did he respond to the issue. Let us remind ourselves of how serious that botch-up was. I know of families whose homes were built after the Minister and this Government were told of the problems, and who are now bankrupt because of the Government\u2019s failing. That is the human toll of this Government\u2019s mess in the area of building law. But it goes on and on. I am disappointed that the Government has not fronted up with regard to all the other problems in the new building law that will come into effect in 13 days\u2019 time. This bill is just the tip of the iceberg. The industry is in chaos. Yesterday I visited the Auckland City Council and met with its building consent department. Those people are pulling their hair out with frustration because of this Government\u2019s incompetence in the area of building law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe need only to talk to the families that are dealing with the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service to know the sort of botch-up we have in this area of law. The Government promised that the resolution service would offer a speedy resolution of the problems experienced by the owners of homes that were leaky, rotten, affecting people\u2019s health, and driving people to emotional torment. How fast has it been? Of the 2,800 claims before the resolution service, do members know how many have gone to adjudication? Fourteen. Do members know that eight times as many claims are being lodged per month than are being settled? Eight times as many claims are being lodged each month than are being resolved. That is a disgrace, and thousands of New Zealand families are at the end of their tether because of the mess the Government has made in this area of the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen there are problems for the building industry itself. There are requirements in the Building Act that are in contradiction with contracts. So the poor builders have the choice of either breaking the law or breaking a contract. That is the dilemma that this Government has created for the thousands of people who work in the building industry. Homeowners are also caught. The Waitakere City Council, one of the great friends of the Labour Party, has put out a news release today, stating that there is no way it can process the number of consents applied for, as there is mad chaos as we approach 31 March. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis is a disgraceful bill. Let us recall what the Minister said. He said he would move that this bill be reported back by the Government Administration Committee not in 6 months, which our Standing Orders require, but in 12 days. That is what the Minister said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215882f6b1b124b17b2d65a0dfd6f0272\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9de9a38bd6849538c5ece485dcc9cf7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly what he said. I say to the Government that it is no wonder it keeps screwing things up and getting things wrong. How can we possibly scrutinise this legislation and make sure that in these pages of law there is not yet another stuff-up, when the Government will give the select committee only 12 days to fix it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that we knew about this problem 3 months ago. It was in the Aussie newspapers. The Australians were able to pull down intellectual property information from the Internet and print it for nix. The Government knew about that 3 months ago, and 12 days before the new building law comes into effect, it puts forward a sneaky little bill, just before a recess, to try to cover up its incompetence. That is not good enough. Where is the Minister? Chris Carter has been in charge of this area for the last 4 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ecb9557c5a944a1acc2b2e9d741d155\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285eb792761f94920acf0f09cd1ea1d9b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That gives Ken Shirley great confidence that all will be hunky-dory! But where is Chris Carter in this debate\u2014and why has nothing been done for 3 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f3449b4c0d346409398d53bd6a6d1c4\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in the name of Pete Hodgson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022894d5d377792448ca1596371a5a838ec\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague David Carter points out that this legislation is in the name of Pete Hodgson. Let us hang on a sec! According to the ministerial list that I have here, the Minister for Building Issues is Chris Carter. I know we have had eight Ministers in charge of building in the course of the 6 years of this Labour Government. Do we now have a ninth? What is going on? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EFinally, I say to the Government that it is absolutely inevitable that the Department of Building and Housing will be breaking the law on 1 April. What sort of Mickey Mouse Government do we have? It knew 3 months ago that there was a problem in the legislation, and 12 days before it comes into effect it has sneaked in a bill to try to fix it\u2014a bill that, because of the way it is drafted, will give the Department of Building and Housing no choice on 1 April but to break the law. That is how much respect for the law this Government has. It says people should do as it says, not as it does. Why is it OK for the Labour Government to break the law, when everybody else in New Zealand has to follow it? The scandal that is breaking out in the building industry through this Government\u2019s incompetence will be one of the reasons why New Zealand will reject Labour at the election later this year. This bill is about the Government\u2019s rushed legislation being wrong, and having to be patched up in a way that is quite unsatisfactory and will involve the Crown breaking the law. It is just further evidence that this Government has absolutely no competence to deal with New Zealanders\u2019 most important assets: their homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022409375f01d6740dd82b6cf8dbb650396\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022409375f01d6740dd82b6cf8dbb650396\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to speak in warm support of the Legislation (Incorporation by Reference) Bill. This legislation amends four existing Acts: the Building Act, the Health Act, the Commerce Act, and the Copyright Act. In all those situations it restores copyright protection. It ensures that builders have ready access to standards for design and construction in a way that does not impose additional costs on their industry. It amends Acts that require somebody to make material that is incorporated by reference available free of charge on the Internet. These are minor changes to the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThe issue at the heart of this bill is that it is important to strike a balance between enabling access to material incorporated by reference, and the legitimate commercial interests of the owners of copyrighting standards and other material that may be incorporated by reference. The process being undertaken through this bill can best be described in one word: tweaking. This is a tweaking of legislation. This bill is turning very good law into excellent law, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00222331a94da161419eb672c532fcdc0fe7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222331a94da161419eb672c532fcdc0fe7\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be opposing this bill, for many reasons. I have to say that I am astonished that a member of Parliament whom I greatly admire, Tim Barnett, would stand up and utter such\u2014in my opinion\u2014twaddle. He said that this bill is just tweaking the legislation, that it will just make minor changes to the legislation, and that builders will have ready access to the Building Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI want to raise an issue here. Yes, the Green Party acknowledges that there are some copyright issues and that these do need to be addressed. But this bill, in the guise of addressing copyright issues, actually removes freedom of access to heaps of important information. Instead of basic standards\u2014building standards and so forth\u2014being available on the Internet, where people can have access to them, suddenly this access is being taken away. And guess what? It will now be possible to charge people to get access to basic information, such as building standards. It will be extraordinarily difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EFar from what Tim Barnett said\u2014that builders will have ready access to Building Act material\u2014a great deal of it will, in fact, be available for inspection at the office in Wellington. How will that benefit a builder in Dunedin or in Whangarei? That builder will have to fly to Wellington and sit in the office there to look at the material. Maybe, if they are lucky, some of the material will be available in the regional offices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f773725515ad493a97465289bb623264\u0022\u003EMurray Smith\u003C/span\u003E: All.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6646901c3848e6b22940ed42f540a1\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, the bill does not actually say that it will all be available. Would that it did! It says that some of the material will be available in the regional offices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI have recently had some experience of this sort of legislation, with the Food Act. Recently, as members know, we lost our sovereignty over making decisions about our food. All these decisions are now made over in Canberra by Food Standards Australia New Zealand, a body on which New Zealand has one vote out of 10. Nick Smith constantly goes on about what a great success this arrangement is. His Government, the former National Government, negotiated for New Zealand to hand over our sovereignty to a body on which we have one vote out of 10\u2014and Nick Smith constantly holds this up as a good piece of legislation. We have one vote out of 10. Have we no self-respect, that we gave up our sovereignty and gave ourselves one vote out of 10? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAnyway, as a result of that, I have tried to get access to various documents held by Food Standards Australia New Zealand\u2014for example, applications for genetically engineered foods. These documents are available at the office in Wellington\u2014700 pages. So I have to go there, sit in the office, and look through 700 pages. As if that were not bad enough, now when we want to get basic information about food labelling and other such issues\u2014standards that were freely available on the Internet\u2014we suddenly find that we have to pay for it. This is what this legislation is all about. Where things relating to the Health Act and other areas were freely available, suddenly we will have to pay for them. And they are using the guise of copyright.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ECertainly, in respect of the Building Act, there are some standards that are international and could breach copyright, and we accept that we do not want to breach international copyright. However, most of the standards are owned by the New Zealand Government, so why could all those standards not be available free of charge? Why should we have to fly to Wellington, or pay in order to look them up on a website? One of the reasons behind the leaky building scandal, which Nick Smith has told us about, was that people had not looked at the standards. They were not properly aware of the standards, and what we are doing here is making it more difficult to access and to know what the standards are. We will be setting ourselves up for another leaky building issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWhy should we not make every single New Zealand standard available for nothing on the Internet? Why are we not making it absolutely easy and simple for builders all through New Zealand to access these standards? Instead, they have to fly down to Wellington, or pay to see them on the Internet. This is a basic issue of freedom of information. It is also setting a precedent, so that instead of having information available, for example Health Act information from the Ministry of Health\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek your protection. I am being distracted by a conversation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5e4d0ec3fd547b9a8ee05ebd9060616\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d861e0cf42e44eda80956b8146e8c545\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thought members were not supposed to speak right next to the person who has the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223195db5cd6e74d12a87187e32cfa9d17\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Particularly the Leader of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229135a21d0c6040f88f65b8dd0edf684d\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Particularly the Leader of the House\u2014absolutely. He is setting a very bad precedent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe point is that this bill has been rushed through the House in 12 days. There should be legislation that prohibits rushing legislation through in 12 days. It is a disgrace. The ink on the Building Act is barely dry, and we are rushing through an amendment to try to change the law in 12 days. It is absolutely disgraceful. We are sneaking in a Trojan Horse. We are setting up a precedent so that we will suddenly have to pay for information that is owned by the New Zealand Government\u2014statutes, building codes, and so forth\u2014and should be freely available on the Internet. We will have to pay for it or fly to Wellington to see it. What nonsense! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWhy should aspects of the Health Act no longer be freely available on the Internet? Everything in respect of the Ministry of Health is owned by the Government. This bill is setting up a situation whereby we will have to pay to get information that ought to be freely available. Surely, in respect of the Building Code, one would think that we would have learnt from the leaky building disaster and would be doing everything in our power to make the information available to builders around New Zealand. We should enable them to look it up on the Internet. If builders are required to go to a couple of regional offices, or to fly to Wellington, they will not do it. Guess what happens then? They will not comply with the standards and we will be setting ourselves up for a leaky building sequel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIn summary, we are totally opposed to this hastily cobbled together legislation. We believe that it undermines freedom of information. We believe that one of the intentions of the bill is to sneak in the precedent that we will pay for information that should be freely available on the Web. We have had experience of this through Food Standards Australia New Zealand, and it is a disaster. If there are international statutes that have copyright, then, sure, that is OK, but this bill applies to all New Zealand legislation and all New Zealand standards that are owned by the Government. Frankly, it is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00225daea07fd560438c9a457b7f69b74bcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225daea07fd560438c9a457b7f69b74bcb\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting to note that in this debate it seems the National Party is opposed to the bill, New Zealand First is opposed to it, the Greens are opposed to it, and\u2014I can tell the House\u2014ACT is opposed to it. This is shoddy, shoddy catch-up legislation that the Government has brought to the House on the last day before we rise for an adjournment. Quite frankly, I do not think that the Government has the numbers. I see the Leader of the House scurrying around. He has suddenly realised that he does not have the numbers on this bill. I think the Government is in trouble. The key question is whether it is a supply or a confidence issue. The Government could fall by the end of the day over such an important piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Hon Nick Smith that there are eight times more complaints being received by the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service per month than are being resolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e4a9c568b6045a49fa95eb6f93527c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976cab96f0cd405db0ad03b066c512f2\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have just had confirmation from that member. There are eight times more complaints being lodged each and every month than are being resolved. That highlights the enormity of the problem, and really underscores and emphasises the botch-up that this Government has made of the whole tragic leaky home problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI think we all know that the problem is grossly under-reported. People are very reluctant to rush off to their council and declare that they have a problem. They might want to sell their house, but they know that if they do rush down to the council the problem will go on the LIM report or on the building file, and that it will certainly be discoverable. They are living with the problem and hoping it will be resolved. It is a terrible, billion dollar - plus problem and, right from the start, the Government has done a botch-up on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe Government has done some foolish things like banning Oregon pine timber. What on earth was the purpose of banning untreated Oregon pine, when it cannot be treated and it does not need to be treated? That was a key point. But one of the first things the Government did was to run out and ban Douglas fir, which is Oregon pine. It was a very foolish move. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI suspect that the Government has never actually got to the core of what the problem is with the leaky home issue, because there is a whole lot of nonsense spoken about the use of untreated timber. In fact, we never ground-treated our framing timber with copper chrome arsenate\u2014it was only boric treated. Boric treatment was not meant to combat moulds, slimes, fungi, and algae, which is the problem with the lack of weathertight homes. Boric never protected people from that; it was only copper chrome arsenate that did that. We used to add a substance called pentachlorophenol, known as PCP, which was put in the boric bath in the sawmill. It had nothing to do with leaky homes. It was to combat the blue stain that timber gets, which makes it unattractive in the marketplace. Because of lobbies from people like the Greens and others, and because it is a toxin\u2014and yes, it is\u2014it was banned. So since about 1990 it has been a banned substance, which has really triggered the problems that we now have with leaky homes, because the pentachlorophenol prevented the mould, the slimes, the fungi, and the algae from growing in our walls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe Greens would argue, of course, that it was toxic so it had to be banned. But I put it to the House that the health risk and the risk to humans from the diseases spread by some of those slimes and moulds, which are naturally occurring, is actually much greater than the risk from the pentachlorophenol, which we banned. It is just cause and consequence. Some of the issues have not been thought through properly. Some people argue that we should ground-treat all framing timber with copper chrome arsenate. Again, that would be foolish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWhat also happened through the 1990s was that we changed our architecture. We dropped eaves off designs, so water was more likely to get into the wall cavity. But the other reason was also a function of the Greens\u2019 lobbying, if you like. It was that incredible drive for energy efficiency and insulation to the point where there was no vapour movement. The traditional Kiwi home always breathed, but as the designs changed through the 1990s, the walls stopped breathing. If we put in impermeable vapour barriers so that hot air condenses immediately in the wall cavity, there is moisture. Very significant volumes of water are trapped in the wall cavity, and that is when the moulds, the slimes, and the fungi take off. That move coincided with the use of air-dried timber, and the dropping of the pentachlorophenol because of the boric treatment that we used to provide. So those are the real reasons, and I observe that this Government has never actually got on top of the cause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe Government has rushed around doing foolish, political knee-jerk reactions, but it never really got on top of the cause of what I believe is a huge problem in this country. It is much greater than most people are prepared to admit, because people do not like advising the council. They keep quiet, they do not want it recorded on the LIM report or on the building report, and they live with it until the walls virtually start falling apart. I believe that in years to come, and progressively over the next few years, there will be a lot more exposure of some very serious problems in our buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThis legislation does absolutely nothing to address the basic problem that we have in buildings. I am appalled. I think Mr Tamihere was the Minister for Building Issues for a short period of time. I ask Mr Tamihere whether that is right. He seems to be enjoying himself today in the House, but he was the Minister on watch for a short period and he was in charge of building. Again, how many Ministers has the Government had in charge of the building industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284377914265b492ca92181c5a2fdca6e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Eight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226867406f49c4a1f88d8921ea61b65c3\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Eight Ministers! It is like revolving doors\u2014the Government just moves them on. Any Government that took this problem seriously would have appointed a senior Minister and left that person there to address the problem. Instead, we have fits and starts and bad policy, and what we have before us today is just a continuation of that approach. The bill fails to address the basic problems, and it does not address the issue that it purports to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u00226275d435a24b4148bda847ffa818c5b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226275d435a24b4148bda847ffa818c5b9\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to begin by thanking the Minister for his recognition of United Future\u2019s role in the drafting of the Legislation (Incorporation by Reference) Bill. That demonstrates the very good working relationship that United Future and the Government have had during this term of Parliament, and United Future\u2019s effectiveness in bringing about positive changes to legislation. After eight meetings with the Government and numerous telephone calls, United Future\u2019s involvement has dramatically altered the original bill. I want to thank particularly Michael Parker, who intervened after we started to get a bit frustrated, and Suzanne Townsend, who knew exactly what I was trying to achieve with this bill, agreed with me, and helped to bring about a workable solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe background of this bill is that building compliance documents, the documents that all trades people and designers have to follow, refer to standards such as New Zealand standard NZS 3604, which is the basic standard used by builders. The Government Administration Committee, when considering the Building Bill, felt that if building practitioners were expected to follow those standards, then they needed to be readily available at a reasonable price. At the time, officials thought that could be done by making them available free of charge on the Internet, and the select committee added provisions to the bill to enable that to occur. I must say that the National members on the committee agreed with that point of view without dissent, and were therefore aware of the provisions at the time. However, it has become clear to all concerned that copyright prohibits that from happening, simply because standards associations rely on the sale of standards in order to fund their production of standards. If they were made available by New Zealand free of charge on the Internet, then the whole world would be able to access them and standards associations would not be able to profit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s solution initially was to delete the requirement for free Internet access and to simply replace it with a discretion on the part of the chief executive of the Department of Building and Housing to make copies of the material available in any way he or she considers appropriate. New section 410(1)(d), inserted by clause 5 of the bill, would have been the solution. United Future was not prepared to agree to that course. The Government then proposed that the materials be made available for inspection in Wellington, as shown in new section 410(1)(b), also inserted by clause 5. But as far as the material referred to in section 410(1)(a) of the Act is concerned, it was also unsatisfactory to us that copies of that material be available for purchase only in Wellington. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe problem that United Future saw and wanted to be covered by this legislation is this. \u201CBob the builder\u201D may wake up on Friday morning, receive a phone call to say that the job for the Browns is off, see it is a fine day and say that in that case he will get the retaining wall done for the Blacks. He may then dig out the engineer\u2019s plans and suddenly find that the retaining wall is an unusual one; it has to be built in accordance with \u201CNZS 5678\u201D. He scratches his head. Usually he builds retaining walls under \u201CNZS 1234\u201D, so he does not know what the unusual standard \u201CNZS 5678\u201D is about. Under the Government\u2019s first proposed solution, there was no guarantee that Bob would be able to get a copy of \u201CNZS 5678\u201D without writing to Standards New Zealand and waiting for it to arrive. Under the Government\u2019s second option Bob could go to the Department of Building and Housing in Wellington in order to get a copy of the standard, which also would be clearly unsatisfactory, or he could hope that the local council had a copy. It may or it may not have one. He may then decide that he does not want to waste his time in trying to track a copy down, and go ahead and say he wants to build the wall on that day, so he will build it in accordance with \u201CNZS 1234\u201D and hope for the best.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EUnited Future\u2019s solution, which is implemented in this bill, enables a builder to inspect any standards that he or she needs to access on a computer at any Department of Building and Housing office throughout the country, or to arrange the purchase of them through that department. I would have liked to have stocks on hand at each office, but was convinced by the Government that that was impractical and would be too costly, given the number of standards involved. However, \u201CBob the builder\u201D can go to the local Department of Building and Housing office, knowing for certain that he will be able to access the standard free of charge and get the information that he needs. The result is that Bob is encouraged to build his wall correctly. The wall is built correctly, and everybody benefits. Better still, through United Future\u2019s negotiation with the Government, the Government agreed to provide the extensions to availability within its existing Budget constraints, so that there is no additional cost in terms of an increase in the building levy in order to provide this additional information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI would like to point out to the House\u2014and particularly to enlighten the \u201CDark Greens\u201D on this\u2014that the list in new section 410(1)(c), inserted by clause 5, is a restrictive list on the face of it, in terms of the standards that it provides. However, as explained in the explanatory note of the bill, the standards that are set out in that section are all the standards that a builder or designer will need to access. The officials advised us that some 378 standards were incorporated by reference, but the vast majority\u2014indeed, all but about 40 of those standards\u2014relate to product standards and to product-testing standards. Clearly, those standards need to be available only to manufacturing companies, and it is reasonable that they obtain them from Wellington only. The companies are able to do that because those standards will not be needed at short notice. What is needed at short notice by architects, designers, and trades people are the standards that relate to design and construction, and all those standards will be available for inspection, free of charge, from every Department of Housing and Building office throughout the country\u2014some 22 of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThere is also a requirement, which United Future insisted on, for the chief executive to report to Parliament on an annual basis as to the steps that he or she is taking to facilitate access to such standards. That flows on from the requirement in the bill for the chief executive to make copies of material available in any other way that he or she considers appropriate. The chief executive must respond in terms of how he or she has carried out that requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E The Minister also acknowledged that he had agreed to consider, in terms of future amendments to the Act, a provision for all compliance documents that do not incorporate standards to be made free of charge on the Internet. That was something else that United Future wanted to have included, but we were advised that it was outside the scope of this bill, in so far as this bill amends a number of Acts regarding incorporation by reference. We thank the Minister for that acknowledgment and for looking at that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThis bill also amends three other Acts, the Commerce Act, the Health Act, and the Copyright Act, and it would be helpful for me to make some comments on that. In regard to the Commerce Act, the only requirement is for the materials to be available in Wellington. The Commerce Act provisions relate solely to the pricing thresholds for large electricity lines generators. At present there are no standards incorporated, and clearly if there were such standards they would apply only to large corporates involved in electricity lines generation. It is quite appropriate, therefore, that the standards be made available in Wellington, but there is no necessity that they be made available on a local basis. The Health Act provision is similar. It applies solely to the National Cervical Screening Programme. Again, there are no standards currently in place, and no standards that are expected. Even if there were, then the district health boards would be the ones that would require them, and again it is appropriate that they be available in Wellington, but there is no necessity that they be available on a local basis. As has already been indicated, the changes to the Copyright Act simply correct a doubt that existed as to whether the Government, by incorporating material by reference, was effectively breaking copyright. There had been some legal argument that simply incorporating material by reference into a document effectively incorporated the material itself, and copyright was lost. The amendment to the Copyright Act simply puts beyond doubt the issue that the incorporation of documents by reference does not take away the copyright that producers of the standard have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say United Future has demonstrated through the changes to this legislation the value of having a small party under the MMP electoral system. United Future has shown its concern for small trades people rather than the bureaucracy and, in particular, its concern to stand against a tendency by Governments to give chief executives discretion instead of obligations, so that they are less accountable. United Future has always been concerned to ensure, since the Building Bill was tabled, that the Building Act\u2014as it is now\u2014is workable in practice, and concerned to encourage compliance with its provisions at a grass-roots level. The changes that United Future has brought about in this legislation do that. We have also been concerned to keep costs down, and the fact that there is no levy increase as a result of the changes we have made is a real plus in terms of the industry. United Future commends this bill to the House, and will support it going through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00225ea06ebf7ddc4f798022f2764e379d6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ea06ebf7ddc4f798022f2764e379d6a\u0022\u003EJOHN TAMIHERE (Labour\u2014Tamaki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E I commend the Legislation (Incorporation by Reference) Bill to the House for its first reading and, in so doing, want to acknowledge that very fine contribution by the member from United Future. I listened very carefully to it, and I accept that members were not as diligent, whilst working on the Government Administration Committee that reported the initial bill back to the House, as they should have been. I was the Minister in the chair that oversaw the last of the Committee stage and the third reading so, to that extent, if there is any blame or difficulty for an error in the legislation as it went through, I accept Murray Smith\u2019s apology. But, no\u2014I acknowledge that we are having to correct the legislation at this stage, because of an oversight. Oversights do happen and mistakes do happen. [Interruption] Yes, that is right; Helen Clark never calls me an oversight!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI want to make a number of other contributions, though. The Building Act came about because of an implosion in standards, not only on the supply side but also in the standards and ethics of our actual trades people. It required a significant legislative change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe National Party presided over a Building Act in 1991 that destroyed more than just the training arm and apprentice system of this country. We have a lack of capacity, capability, and competency because of what those people on that side of the House\u2014and they will stay there a very long time, I might say\u2014did, and failed to do. We in the last wee while have had to effect some significant change, a shift, both in standards and apprenticeships and in the way in which we regulate the building industry. I can say that the building industry has been awfully supportive in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe problems with leaky buildings have come directly out of a National-led Government, with its henchmen ably supported in the ACT party. The problems that we have, and that we are having to fix up, I tell the Hon David Carter, are all of the National Party\u2019s making. I regret saying that, particularly this late on a Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House for a first reading, and I acknowledge my colleague Tim Barnett. I do not accept what the member of the Green Party said about his contribution; I do not believe that he talks twaddle. Again, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002294dff49c2de8475191fa0fd8cdc79d03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294dff49c2de8475191fa0fd8cdc79d03\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am rising on behalf of my colleague Brent Catchpole, who will be sitting on the select committee that considers this bill and hears submissions, but I have a couple of things to say in reply to the debate that we have had\u2014and let me make that very clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIs this it? Is this bill the United Future party\u2019s election winner? Is this the one that will move mountains, bring the mountain to Mohammed, and ensure that Murray Smith claws his way back into Parliament after this next election? Is this the issue? I have just heard the Minister of Labour, in introducing the bill, heap laurels and bouquets all over the United Future party, which describes itself in its own words as a small party; I heard some unkind person say \u201Csmall poodle\u201D, and that is the way it will be seen. I have listened to every word uttered by Murray Smith in support of this bill\u2014as long, and as boring, and as well read out as his speech was. There was a time when people would come into this House, stand on their own two feet, and articulate their views, without once looking at notes, but not that man. He gave me a great, detailed rundown on what this legislation will do, by reading out his speech. He could have saved us all the problem of taking an unwanted Mogadon, by just tabling the speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut he did it, and he did it because he truly believes that this is it\u2014that this bill is the one thing that United Future has done for New Zealand that will save that party\u2019s bacon. It is nothing. That party campaigned vigorously on such moral issues as traditional family values. It was going to stop prostitution in its tracks, it was going to stop all the evils and the ills that are pervading New Zealand society, and the Christian coalition and all its entourage leapt on board behind the United Future party. And what do they get? They get the Legislation (Incorporation by Reference) Bill. One cannot even read the title without being bored to tears. This is it. This is the United Future party\u2019s last gasp. I have only one thing to say to the United Future party: it should roll up its sleeping bags, pull down its tents, pack up its placards, and go home. It is over. This House will not remember the United Future party for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat it will remember is a Government that rammed legislation through\u2014the Building Act\u2014in a great hurry. What it will remember is that successive Ministers have sat in the chair during the Committee stages of bill after bill, in urgency, and ignored pleas for changes, ignored Supplementary Order Papers, and voted them down, without ever once accepting constructive criticism from the Opposition benches. And only a few short months later we have to revisit the same legislation\u2014passed under urgency\u2014with the Government introducing a new bill that it wants to rush through in 8 working-days. The report back is expected to be tabled in this House in 8 working-days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EOur spokesperson has looked at this bill and has said: \u201CFair go; if this bill will help some people out there who have been ripped off and raided, who have had no assistance from the Government whatsoever in solving their problems, and who have been forced to the verge of, and sometimes over the top and into, bankruptcy, we will sit on the select committee and listen to it; we will support it going to a select committee.\u201D But New Zealand First is looking for results, and New Zealand First is looking for accountability, because, after all, Prime Minister Clark promised us a new era of accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI listened to the Hon Nick Smith\u2019s speech, and he is quite right. We should look at the people who are behind this bill. Chris Carter has got this issue now, but, by golly, is it any wonder we hear George Hawkins has had involvement in it\u2014George \u201CHalfway House\u201D Hawkins, the \u201CMinister of Everything That Is Not Done Properly\u201D. It is probably a good thing that some of these houses have to be demolished. We would hate to think that the occupants would ever have to dial 111 to get some help. Maybe that is the way people could get some help with their houses\u2014dial 111 and say: \u201CGeorge, I can\u2019t get any response from the Government in solving the problem, and now we\u2019ve got this bill, the Legislation (Incorporation by Reference) Bill\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ab25cf655244bdab297f95dd390cfa4\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Scream loudly!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc3d9ada7cb94864b0075f4ce3ff28fe\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: If they dial 111 and scream loudly, maybe George Hawkins will hear them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI have to make a couple of other points about this bill. Firstly, this Government was notified of these problems in December, and now we are rushing legislation through and asking for a report back in 8 days. That is not good enough. If an amendment comes forward\u2014and I think there probably will be one, from either the Hon David Carter or the Hon Nick Smith\u2014then we will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESecondly, it worries us in New Zealand First that this problem has been with us for so long, and many promises have been made, but the solutions have been long in coming, and the Government has been short on delivery, and we ask ourselves why. Why is this Government so tardy in dealing with the leaky buildings problem? Maybe I have the answer. I have learnt one thing about this Government: it has no time for private citizens who are independent, and it has no time for private citizens who have the gumption to save money for a deposit to build a home. It considers them all to be rich. If they work they get no assistance. If they have children\u2014and half the Labour caucus would not know what that is all about\u2014if they save their money, the Labour caucus is not interested in them. The Government views a lot of those people with nice, flash homes as being rich, wealthy, and therefore not deserving of its protection or care. That is why we continue to see, as recently as last night on Close Up, more of the sad stories unfolding, and so few of those people getting satisfactory assistance, and so few of those claims being addressed. Does the Government care? No, it appears not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt seems that United Future cares. United Future would have us believe that it has spent the last 2\u00BD years beavering away producing this bill. Well, I simply say to United Future members that it is over, they should pack up their poodle and go home, and no one will remember this bill. The only thing people will remember is that for 5 years they waited in vain for meaningful assistance and meaningful help to rebuild their homes, rebuild their lives, and recover their lifetime investments\u2014investments that they will never see. It does not matter about the protections that Mr Murray Smith talked about\u2014the terms of the copyright, who has the information, or where it is accessed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThere is great suspicion in New Zealand First that this bill is just another revenue-gathering exercise by this Government. It has a long track record, supported by United Future, of dreaming up new revenue-gathering methods, such as the petrol tax, which United Future approved by giving supply of money, and by giving confidence in terms of the Budget. That is the bottom line for United Future. Those members can bleat on, harp on, pat themselves on the back, and congratulate themselves all they like, but the sad reality is that everything this Government has done\u2014or has not done\u2014that New Zealanders will be asking questions about in the election has been made possible by United Future. The only thing those members will be able to stand up and say is that they provided stable Government. In other words, they provided the doormat for Helen Clark to wipe her feet on every time she went into her office, every day of every week of every month of every year that she was in power. I say: \u201CWell done, United Future!\u201D. We thought it might have done something to stop some of the issues that were so dear to the Christian Heritage party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EFrom the perspective of New Zealand First, we will support this bill going to the select committee. We look forward to an adjustment right now in the report-back date, so that there can be meaningful examination and so that we can get to the bottom of what this bill really means. But, beyond that, our support will depend entirely on what the final product looks like, and entirely on how meaningful it will be in practical terms for those people who have invested their life-savings in their homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00226419bf2560bc4ba193604d7b48e0c68b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226419bf2560bc4ba193604d7b48e0c68b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I say at the outset that this legislation will spell the death of United Future, because what we are witnessing today is the dodgiest legislative process that I have ever seen in my time in this House. There is an urgent mess to tidy up with the Building Act, and the Government is trying to avoid scrutiny and media damage by not passing the bill under urgency, thereby dodging the select committee process. Instead the Government comes into the House and says that it will refer the bill to a select committee for 8 working-days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Government knows full well that by introducing the bill at 5 o\u2019clock on Thursday, 17 March, as the House is about to rise for an adjournment week, this legislation will not go to the Government Administration Committee until at least Tuesday, 29 March, which means that this Government, supported by United Future, is giving the Government Administration Committee 2 days\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ee849a40d142eeb20bbc1b06123325\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: How many days?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dadfdf76189241baaecb3a30fbb39d9b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is giving it 2 working-days to consider this legislation. [Interruption] Murray Smith says that that is not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cabdf5dd0ca4e0e991f76a054cefa69\u0022\u003EMurray Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It won\u2019t even pass its first reading by 29 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e68463299fc94205a74979a560414bcd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Murray Smith that that is exactly my point. The legislation will not be debated and finalised until 29 March, yet the Minister has instructed the select committee to report it back by 31 March. It is an absolute outrage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second point that I make for Mr Murray Smith concerns the name of the legislation. The Government could not be dodgier if it tried. The explanatory note states that the bill amends the Building Act. To anybody who has been here for any length of time, that means that this legislation should be called the \u201CBuilding Act Amendment Bill\u201D. But Murray Smith of United Future and the whole of the Labour Government are so embarrassed that they have dreamt up the name Legislation (Incorporation by Reference) Bill, and have put the bill not in the name of the Minister for Building Issues\u2014now the Hon Chris Carter\u2014but in the name of the Hon Pete Hodgson. Members cannot tell me that Pete Hodgson is now the ninth Minister for Building Issues that we have seen during this Government\u2019s administration. Jim Anderton, Lianne Dalziel, George Hawkins, Steve Maharey, and John Tamihere have all been associated with the mess that the Labour Government has made of the building industry in 5\u00BD long years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe sad thing is that the leaky homes mess was on the front page of the New Zealand Herald day after day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005031739db711910304d44a27606aa9c53e2bf000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"