"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d4757dfd4f34ed3b2b5b046ca516537\u0022\u003EThursday, 12 May 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002234c6f1a2d11644b2b271e8507c027fa4\u0022\u003EThursday, 12 May 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002258ce403a01794b089aa9ef37b6a751d6\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225220749bba094148876d388b42b0e870\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002234facbe807b04ca5a83b9f0c42b66aaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234facbe807b04ca5a83b9f0c42b66aaf\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House priority will be given to the remaining stages of the Medicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill and the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Bill, to the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Tuwharetoa (Bay of Plenty) Claims Settlement Bill, and to the first readings of the bills on the Order Paper. On Thursday, of course, the Minister of Finance will present Budget 2005 at 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002221130724774d417ca3c9ba9283f694b2\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276f4c2c4cd2248c7a940351302893ba4\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u2014Deferment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c47a29e818024d7caf4457df289740f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c47a29e818024d7caf4457df289740f0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Parliament functions well, and Government functions well, in this country when we all accept the premise that the Government has the right to advance its business, and we accept that the Standing Orders are structured so that a Government can get its business done. But part of Government is accountability, and the role of the Opposition is, in a public way, to hold Ministers to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo I want to make it very clear that we are most unhappy that a Minister who is presiding over a portfolio\u2014the police portfolio\u2014and who is currently coming under considerable public scrutiny, is not in the Chamber today to answer questions set down to him. We note that neither is the Prime Minister present, when it might reasonably have been expected that a confidence question would be asked of her, and nor is the Deputy Prime Minister present, who normally fills in for her. For that matter, nor are the third, fourth, and fifth-ranking Ministers in Cabinet present today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo we have a couple of options open to us. The first is to seek leave to defer the questions to be put to those Ministers, perhaps until tomorrow or Saturday, or maybe Sunday afternoon when they might have some time in which to be accountable to the public of this country, or we could equally decide to use the Standing Orders just as the Government is using them\u2014to its own ends\u2014which would of course deny legislative time and, therefore, opportunity to the Government. Neither of those two options should be seen as desirable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EGiven that the Government, it would seem, has used the Standing Orders today to try to avoid Ministers\u2014particularly the Minister of Police, George Hawkins\u2014coming under scrutiny, and given that that Minister has fled the capital along with the Prime Minister and most of the Labour front bench, at a time they are in a tight situation, I seek leave for the questions set down to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Police to be held over until the next sitting day that those members are able to be present in the House to answer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022836dc93ac5d848fea0ced624785cf445\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought\u2014[Interruption] The member would like clarification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002206030f6b25994302b3dd397c5b23412b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206030f6b25994302b3dd397c5b23412b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The clarification I would like is to make sure that the member is not asking for those to be additional questions on the next sitting day, because he did not make that clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abd6deb3ec44f7897fff1ea6190e58e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for those specific questions to be deferred to the next sitting day. Is that right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222fca5aca700f47209e93ebdc67965399\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fca5aca700f47209e93ebdc67965399\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E That is right. That, of course, would not alter the allocation of questions on the next sitting day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223233cb8aa59142c89bcd150247c92e62\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that matter. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3d70109e242416b9c345036847705c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3d70109e242416b9c345036847705c8\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I want to make a point that follows on from what Mr Brownlee said, but it is a new point, and it is on your role of upholding the rights and privileges of this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFor some time in this Parliament, we have been questioning the Minister of Police over the emergency 111 system. The answer first of all was that there was no problem and that resources were adequate. The answer then became that everything was awaiting the delivery of a report. I do not need to explain to you how important the 111 system is to the operation of the New Zealand Police and the confidence that New Zealanders have in the police. Finally, after being delayed and suffering obfuscation for months, the report has been released. We turn up to Parliament, and what do we discover? The Minister of Police has done a runner because he does not care about his portfolio or about the people of New Zealand. The Prime Minister has done a runner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db219816186f4a318402e2bcd13e6545\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member just come to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e85f464f57541d78f7c1437bf0806f3\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I would expect you to be suggesting in a gentle way to the Government that when a report of some note comes out, such as this one, which is of some concern to the public of New Zealand, Ministers actually front up to this Parliament and give this Parliament and the people of New Zealand the respect that they deserve by answering the questions that we have set down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b308ec8ac50542cd9a8c9ec0c499442e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b308ec8ac50542cd9a8c9ec0c499442e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E My first point would be that that is not a point of order. On many occasions it has been ruled that the Government is treated as a whole and that any Minister can answer on behalf of any other Minister. On the specific question, I am advised that Mr Hawkins has a long-standing engagement dealing with the matters to do with the Bay of Plenty floods. It was set down some time ago, and people have been arranging it. He did not control the release of the documentation yesterday. I am not sure whether the member was here, but there was a large debate held throughout yesterday afternoon on the matter. So the idea that the Government is not fronting up is clearly not correct. I would also point out that no major party in the House\u2014and, in fact, no major party that will be here after the election\u2014currently has a leader in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00222c924dfa95394101bc156de0e0fadfa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c924dfa95394101bc156de0e0fadfa2\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00222ac465ba190b4645bfd43b6a5bec4b6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ac465ba190b4645bfd43b6a5bec4b6d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have heard enough. Thank you very much. Let me rule on the first point of order, please. If the member has another point, I am sure there will be plenty of opportunity for other points to be put. I would just note on the point of order that, as members are aware, the Standing Orders in this Parliament mean that questions can be put to any Minister on any day. That is what the Standing Orders provide. I would also just note, however, that in other Parliaments the practice is different, and Ministers are rostered to give answers to any questions that come up. Invariably, under our system, there will be occasions when Ministers are not available under our Standing Orders, so the Standing Orders do provide that questions can be put to any Minister on any day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a457e8f3232a450fac38cc5d5084e813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a457e8f3232a450fac38cc5d5084e813\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That was an interesting piece of information from Trevor Mallard telling us that the reason George Hawkins is not in the House today is that he has for a long time planned to be at, I believe, the Bay of Plenty civil defence, whatever that might, in fact, be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a813063b2545dc886991c190bf24a7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please come to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3dfbafcde9c430290841cdd3d7b3426\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I have in front of me the ministerial diaries, which are published each week so that the media can know where Ministers are. On the Thursday, 12 May page, there are no public appointments for Mr Hawkins anywhere around the country, but on Friday, 13 May\u2014an appropriate day for Mr Hawkins to be anywhere\u2014there is an appointment for Mr Hawkins to be in the Bay of Plenty, launching the programme that he has put forward a day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2abfa9e70e4ee981bf34652a3ed6f1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am still not sure what the point of order is. What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228123c44c7f048e69b4a2e4d3a31b934\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mallard has misled the House. Further, we now find that Mr Hawkins, who has stood in the House on numerous occasions and said that he is not responsible for, and that he does not get involved in, operational matters, is today supplanting himself in the midst of an operational matter at the Northern Communications Centre. There is no excuse for that Minister not being here, and we would ask you to indicate to the Government that it is not good for the House to continue this practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022cba9a82d3b834d22846bcbe40d184425\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cba9a82d3b834d22846bcbe40d184425\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I note that we are getting into a debate on the movements of the Minister of Police, under the guise of a point of order. I think the member has made his point, so perhaps he would now like to proceed to ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00226bbc6545a83145f6b1209a42bbc3f7a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bbc6545a83145f6b1209a42bbc3f7a9\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I want to make it clear that I am not disputing your ruling. I am not disputing the point made by the Minister of Education in relation to the previous point, either. But I invite you to consider going a step further in your advice to the House, either formally in the Chamber or perhaps informally through the various channels available to you. I draw on Standing Order 80, which makes it clear that you are responsible for the order and decorum of the Chamber. Notwithstanding the point made by Mr Mallard that Governments are able to pass the parcel to any Minister to handle a particular issue, I think that if you followed that to its literal conclusion you could, for example, have all Ministers bar, say, Judith Tizard absent from the House on a particular day, leaving her to answer all the questions from Opposition members. I submit that that would be not only disorderly but also likely to detract from the decorum of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that somewhere there must be a line where you indicate that the decorum and the order of the House are suffering as a consequence of Ministers failing to be available when it is reasonable to expect them to be so. The Deputy Prime Minister has already let it be known\u2014and has acted accordingly\u2014that it is legitimate to withdraw Ministers from the House to obstruct the Opposition in pursuing the Government. I think that in those circumstances the House could only benefit if you were to give this matter some further reflection and, either formally or informally, to give us some guidance as to how you expect Standing Order 80 to be managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f96147822de04b8da4bec05d65c18e37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f96147822de04b8da4bec05d65c18e37\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I thank my friend for his advice to the House and remind him that there are a number of precedents in this area. One dates from the late 1990s when the then Minister of Tourism, after paying a friend of his nearly $500,000 to leave her job, absented himself from the House for days on end. The right of members to come to the House or not to come, or to have other business\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022682b570b44744db590f04eec79bb14f4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ee5a3d19664eff97d4b36009cdaf3f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E\u2014is a matter that has been ruled on, on many occasions. For that member to talk about a member\u2019s absence from the House, when he spent most of the first month of this sitting of the House outside because he had the pip with the person who sits on his left, is just classic. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022e78673cac1f74025be9afc4734bfe4d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e78673cac1f74025be9afc4734bfe4d2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have just asked the Hon Chris Carter to leave for interrupting a point of order, and I am sorry to say that that is what Mr Brownlee was doing also. The member wants me to apply the rules in this Parliament fairly. I have to do so. When points of order are being made there is to be no interruption. So I am sorry, but Mr Brownlee will have to leave the Chamber. It is the only way I can conduct the business of this House fairly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00222d6ddedcb5c9427982b79097f7afdd1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d6ddedcb5c9427982b79097f7afdd1a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. When a person is making a point of order that is clearly outside the Standing Orders\u2014and the comments of the Minister of Education in respect of my colleague Murray McCully were way outside the Standing Orders and way outside what a point of order can be\u2014what is a member meant to do? We are meant to rely on the Speaker to intervene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00224b602649abd44a56ba7ae4ed2ba69814\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b602649abd44a56ba7ae4ed2ba69814\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Several points of order have already been raised that are not points of order. We listen to them, and that is what I have been doing. I will allow Mr Brownlee to ask his questions, of course. That is only fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f392722b943c445d84da10166be5d380\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f392722b943c445d84da10166be5d380\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I hope I can assist the Chair. Mr Mallard made some statements that, frankly, if he had made them about me, I would not have remained quiet about, regardless of whether I was supposed to. I will remind you of what he said. I hope Mr McCully does not mind me repeating the defamation. Mr Mallard said that Mr McCully had arranged for half a million dollars to go to a friend. That is gross corruption. The statement is completely out of order. Although the Speaker listens to points of order, a Speaker would normally intervene at that point and tell a member that his or her statement is\u2014it is right off the scale, actually. That statement happens not to be true, and it should not have been said. I am stunned that Mr McCully and his colleagues took it so meekly. Then one of them was told, because he had sort of grunted, that he would be thrown out. If Mr Brownlee is thrown out, that is just an invitation for Mr Mallard, who is Parliament\u2019s worst offender, to get up on points of order and accuse people of corruption. He said that half a million dollars was given to a friend. That is not true, and we are supposed to take it. I say to you, Madam Speaker, that the House has not asked you to do that. The House has asked you to uphold the rules. If you are to throw Mr Brownlee out, then I trust that you will name Mr Mallard and suspend him from the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00228d529d0864ad4b34908c5fff2d1fcb14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d529d0864ad4b34908c5fff2d1fcb14\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The rules also provide, as the member has said, that Mr McCully could have raised a point of objection. He did not do that at that time. If he wishes to do so now\u2014if he has taken offence\u2014then of course he can ask the Minister to withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022307be31630be498a8ef3883b16fed15d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022307be31630be498a8ef3883b16fed15d\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The reason I did not take a point of order is that we were already in a point of order, and I was intent on waiting for the point to be resolved. But since you have invited me to do so, I say that of course I have taken gross offence at the quite defamatory and untrue statement that was made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022c06ef2c07a934a0c890f188c21a886a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c06ef2c07a934a0c890f188c21a886a4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister to withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220a763f1c343a428e84ead6581969bc6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a763f1c343a428e84ead6581969bc6c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I withdraw and apologise. I should have said that the member appointed someone, paid him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022a57d943722874b0c9c4eb49c6136cbff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a57d943722874b0c9c4eb49c6136cbff\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The withdrawal and apology are without any qualification at all. [Interruption] I just make this comment, Mr Hide. We are now getting into debatable matters through the raising of points of order. [Interruption] I ask Mr Mallard to be seated. We are now getting into debatable matters under the guise of a point of order. The original point that was raised was about the absence of a Minister. I have addressed that point of order, in accordance with the Standing Orders. I now invite Mr Brownlee to ask question No. 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00220ec76bd4fca54a948c05113ca55d66ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ec76bd4fca54a948c05113ca55d66ef\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My point is a simple one. When a member is asked to withdraw and apologise, he should do so immediately. You saw then from Trevor Mallard exactly what you had asked him to withdraw and apologise about. Immediately after withdrawing and apologising, he then took another point of order, simply for the purpose of having another attack on the Hon Murray McCully. It seems to me that you have to deal with that, because that was a complete abuse of, firstly, the Standing Orders, and, secondly, your authority in the Chair, when you had asked him to withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002225dd8122d3de4cd59cbdecc3d218bb99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225dd8122d3de4cd59cbdecc3d218bb99\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I reprimanded the member for that at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002200e539a876ca4519984b923885b4baa0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200e539a876ca4519984b923885b4baa0\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In support of my colleague\u2019s submission, I say that it puts us in an interesting position when the acting Leader of the Opposition has been asked to leave the Chamber, and to return only to ask the questions on the sheet, when at the same time the very incident that the Minister was asked to withdraw and apologise for has been repeated\u2014in a direct breach of the Standing Orders\u2014by the adding of a qualification at the conclusion of that withdrawal and apology, yet that member still remains in the Chamber, when the acting Leader of the Opposition has been required to withdraw. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00221f132cb2e7484041bbabb55e0e5fa76e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f132cb2e7484041bbabb55e0e5fa76e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: They were two different points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1269e4a825f4ced8cc35d1ffd0886dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1269e4a825f4ced8cc35d1ffd0886dc\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think that to get the record clear, I should withdraw and apologise without qualification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00221acb6d3ddb1a4c32b89fd4d6d9d8903b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221acb6d3ddb1a4c32b89fd4d6d9d8903b\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You may have missed it, but it was clearly discernable to members on the Opposition side of the House that while my colleague Mr Brownlee was engaged in a point of order, the Minister of Education made an interjection, which I will not repeat to the House, that was designed to be insulting to Mr Brownlee. I was surprised that you did not reprimand him for that at the time, and I invite you to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022d444268f76464570ad30a369751e2813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d444268f76464570ad30a369751e2813\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I did not hear it. However, I did hear the intervention from the Hon Chris Carter, which is why I asked him to leave the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db66c48dc309487ebbfa77b516f807f3\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221533091f06a241268eaefe680be1ca2b\u0022\u003ETrevor Mallard\u2014Statement Made About Hon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1067eb69ac84a208837987f146e5e1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1067eb69ac84a208837987f146e5e1c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House under Standing Order 343 to make a personal explanation in respect of the statement made by Mr Trevor Mallard on nationwide TV\u2014the Close Up programme\u2014that I was personally responsible for the $20 million bail-out in respect of Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f161bb6f7af84e1d858623921be4199e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make a personal statement. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00220234fa4242de4c56874a52705a6c1685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220234fa4242de4c56874a52705a6c1685\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. We have now got ourselves into a particularly difficult situation. One of the rights, or conventions\u2014and, indeed, accepted as a right\u2014of this House is that when members believe they been wronged, they can have the opportunity to put the record right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAn honourable member\u2014in this case, Nick Smith\u2014has now asked for that to be done. In my 18 years here, I cannot recall a person who wanted to make a position clear, when there has been a reflection on him or her publicly, being prevented from doing so in this House. I do recall a couple of occasions when leave was refused, but advice was taken, and the member who refused the leave reflected and allowed it to happen. I suggest that it might be well advised for the House to allow Nick Smith, if he were allowed to seek leave again, to make his statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022c25adc2ff2804149a72e50feadb3b6d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c25adc2ff2804149a72e50feadb3b6d3\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E If the suggestion made is, indeed, followed, then in the interests of making progress and of allowing the member to make his comment\u2014with the assurance that it will be made strictly in accordance with the Standing Orders\u2014I do not think there will be a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e8ce5a53a514c1381a400e7cd811445\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has sought leave to make a personal statement. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002247f5b38f3f0d4f7cafff50ea76951b9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247f5b38f3f0d4f7cafff50ea76951b9c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E On Monday evening on Close Up, the Minister of Education said in response to a question from Susan Wood as to who should be held responsible for the mess in the w\u0101nanga and the $20 million bail-out that it was me, Nick Smith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI wish to make it absolutely plain to the House that I have never held any responsibility for the portfolio of tertiary education or for the w\u0101nanga. I have dealt with no ministerial correspondence and no Cabinet papers. I have never had responsibility for any of the vote. I find it extraordinary that the Minister went on to say that I was responsible for developing a funding system. I was not responsible for developing any funding system in any of the responsibilities I held during my 3 years as a Minister of the Crown. I seek the leave of the House to table the ministerial delegations and responsibilities held during the time that I was a Minister of the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5b9805678de43448672912eb8f1475e\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c2c151963f14e9fa40ddf1b69e54813\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be6221514b59408b9bef9abfcaf8e91f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00228abfcf80ba764eaaaa501a07c3f1cbb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228abfcf80ba764eaaaa501a07c3f1cbb0\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Before we make progress on this question, I remind you again that under Standing Order 80 you have the ability to determine the order of the House in the best way possible. You have indicated to the acting Leader of the Opposition, Mr Brownlee, that he is able to ask his question, but then I understand he is expected to leave the Chamber. You also indicated that you had missed a disorderly interjection from a member on the other side who had been, in my view, quite disorderly. I ask you, in the spirit of getting the best order in the House for the afternoon, whether you might like to allow Mr Brownlee not only to ask his questions but also to participate in the balance of question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221256323f35424f86803ceb90333795bd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy for Mr Brownlee to ask question No. 1, then to leave the Chamber and come back to ask question No. 5 and to remain in the Chamber thereafter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022236e2d0214584dcfa4d70e45c37d7e12\u0022\u003EPolice, Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0907b60117e4e1894bcd6a981b967d3\u0022\u003E1. GERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Police; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00229729fcc171ba4180b84d6e2596fd6c8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229729fcc171ba4180b84d6e2596fd6c8b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes, because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e1bdc7e085418b87861bb7f9a81f42\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Who does the Prime Minister hold responsible for the state of the police emergency system\u2014a system with inadequate levels of service, where calls are not dealt with quickly enough, where patrol cars are not responding, and where public safety is at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a227d2ac39f4588bd6febfdb45af11b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The report of the review committee sets out quite clearly the difficulties that exist there. They are predominantly operational difficulties, but it was the Commissioner of Police himself who asked for the review, and the Commissioner of Police who has committed himself to respond to each of those review recommendations to ensure that this country has a first-rate communications centre system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a77791131d734dc0a0f52ad12b53af0b\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the Minister of Police has responded appropriately to the findings of the independent review of police communications centres?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb74e68dd9b24b839b1daa20323af6e4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Minister committed himself in the House in November, and again in February, to deliver additional resources, on top of the additional resources he has already delivered to the police over 5 years, if the review concluded that they were necessary to address problems in the 111 system. That Minister, of course, has honoured that promise in full.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225372e65c785247e5a757ebb7a55dcfdd\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister seriously expect the country to accept this Minister as being competent, when he ignored the advice given to him on 29 September 2002 by a communications officer as to the problems with the emergency 111 system; when he ignored the advice given to him by his own Commissioner of Police, dated 21 November 2002, highlighting the problems of the 111 system, in Auckland in particular; when he failed to take on board the very serious article published in Investigate in June 2003, that cautioned that there would be a death; when he failed to approve the recommendations in the police bid for May 2003; and when he told this House that traffic officers were not sitting on the side of the road with their radios turned off, and we now know they were?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022706d93fc3a664e8eaf2d98e0191e8bed\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I will answer two of those questions. Firstly, the member is not quoting accurately from the first communication he talked about. That communication\u2014he can table it if he likes\u2014does not deal with communications staff; it deals with general staff. Secondly, it was not ignored. It was passed on to the Commissioner of Police, because it was an operational matter. Thirdly, this Minister, unlike Winston Peters when he was Deputy Prime Minister, has delivered an increase in the Budget for police each and every year that he has been Minister. I refer Ron Mark to 1997, when the appropriations for the police were cut on Budget night. Winston Peters cut the police Budget. George Hawkins has seen it increase each and every year for 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0b8034631f4afaafe77c853a1fdb24\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that the substance of this report into the emergency 111 system comprises matters that a strong and capable Minister should have been able to find out without needing the assistance of the Australians and Canadians; if so, does she now not regret her decision to put the placating of the internal factions of the Labour Party ahead of the good of the country by keeping Mr Hawkins as Minister of Police, when it is patently obvious that her decision has put the lives of New Zealanders at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517e50597e424aa08eb48f91c128ea3d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The second point is absolutely wrong. On the first point, that member would have been the first member in the House to accuse the Government of an in-house whitewash if the review had been done internally. I congratulate the Commissioner of Police on getting top people from three different jurisdictions to produce a forthright and comprehensive report, then committing himself to implementing it\u2014not before time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d558e2d343d3404f9234c21e3398e9d7\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I know this is outside of the normal procedure, but I ask the indulgence of the House to seek leave at this particular point of time, specifically as it may impact on the supplementary questions that follow, because the Minister\u2019s own statement, in Hansard, that the letter I quoted from was not communications related, and indeed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb6e21b35e54b74a2097287c5cb0a01\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could you come to the point. What is your point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239642b32176a4d88b00b07c3a7de891a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I want to seek the leave of the House and your indulgence, because this is not the time to do it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d259efb122c48e28b7954dd38d402e3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is your point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e563e950d5644689b74e67371d75094\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a letter from the police Southern Communications Centre in Christchurch, dated 29 September 2002, written by K D Morrison, a communications police staff member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4f4ca2f31a144ad875b87349640a660\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister be urging the Minister of Police to look at decentralising call centres and merging the call answering and despatch functions, as the review recommended, to avoid the problem of operators hundreds of kilometres away knowing little about the town the distressed person is calling from or about what police resources are actually available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c9e65ac29f44eb5b8ad66216beaa874\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That matter is patently an operational matter that the Prime Minister, properly, should not intervene in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a64ef77c7dd4136baad35c3e56ef166\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Prime Minister expect the public to have any confidence in the Minister of Police, and in the Government\u2019s propaganda asserting that crime is falling, when yesterday\u2019s independent report has clearly undermined police statistics on the true length of the time 111 callers had to wait for a response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6580e7df52a43f98b67423957996323\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There is no question about the accuracy of the statistics, the way in which they are compiled, and the fact that that has been consistent over time. I find it remarkable that every member of the Opposition was absolutely ready to\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6b49aee8868401fb55ff33fe330e906\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister sit down. Interjections are permitted, but they must be at a level where the answer can be heard. Would the Minister please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0a91fad8254fd1943a635b8eccdcf0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I find it absolutely incredible that when those figures were going up in some categories, every member of the Opposition had absolute faith in them; now that they are going down in every category those members choose to disbelieve them. The population can take its own conclusion from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f9dcdb5668a4d11aad6539236494169\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that her repeated expressions of confidence in George Hawkins have put New Zealanders calling the 111 system at risk, and why does she continue to allow that incompetent and failed Minister to preside over that service when it clearly needs a new approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4217158575d428eb5958fca1a834190\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not accept that, but I draw Mr Brownlee\u2019s attention to the fact that the previous National Minister refused to have an inquiry into the 111 system when it was sought in 1998. Secondly, I draw attention to this fact from the Police Association: the National Government planned to cut 285 non-sworn staff, including those who answered 111 calls. If that is not a case of double standards, I do not know what is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e72c350fba4345db8143e7765847681f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The examples the Minister has rather hopefully clung to are almost a decade old. I think it would be appropriate for you to indicate to the Government that it is totally responsible for the last 6 years and for the mess that has been uncovered in this inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b686d6b9373462d96e5342f1d73a3da\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225f31c799be242438bc1e273077a8550\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think we need to have any more comment on this. The member has made the point. It is not for the Chair to comment on the quality of the answer. As members know, that will be done by others who hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f581f8af924a474c909eb412da7c7e96\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. While Mr Brownlee was taking his point of order the acting Prime Minister, Phil Goff, interjected on him very clearly and very loudly. The appropriate course of action is to be consistent with the action taken in relation to Mr Brownlee\u2014that is, when the acting Prime Minister has finished answering his questions, he should go out, and come back in when he is due to answer them again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e26e53a01e640deabd490d366b4dbe0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard a general level of intervention; I did not hear a specific comment or interjection thrown across. I heard a general level only. I am trying to be consistent here. But I would say to members that the whole level of chat and talk in this House is too high in this question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb01f85540924b3b884a58d4ff58b50b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Perhaps to move matters forward on the points raised by Mr Hide I could offer two options respectfully to the Chair. Firstly, any member on this side of the House would be happy to advise you who made the interjection. Secondly, perhaps you would consider asking the acting Prime Minister directly whether he interjected during the course of that point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248949c27e8a141b0b3a47c1e0ebee23a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister of Justice interject?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c270a77f2b045dc845e674eadf04e30\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I said, and probably too loudly: \u201CThat\u2019s not correct.\u201D, in response to something that was incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9fc0324520547b9adec218c15eebdd0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was a comment. We are getting ourselves into a ridiculous position where there will be nobody left by the time we get to question time. However appealing that may well be to some people, it would seem to me that that is not the appropriate way to run the House. The Minister will have time out, also. I am not sure what other questions he will be answering, but we will do an equivalent to what I have decreed in terms of the tariff before. The Minister will remain until he has finished answering this question, unless members would like him to go without answering the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6733c87aea74677a2861f2ee7753f9f\u0022\u003E Hon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. First of all, I apologise for the interjection, but your proposal creates some problems for me. I am answering question Nos 1, 3 5, 7, 8, and 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279415cb311754d3f8254260d229af305\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: It does create a problem, because it appears that Mr Goff actually is the Government today. [Interruption] Well, some might take some comfort from that. There is another alternative, Madam Speaker, which I do not think would reflect on your authority, and that would be to call it quits and allow Mr Goff and Mr Brownlee to stay. Part of the reason I think you could do that is that there is a complete difference, I think, between a person who makes a loud interjection that the whole House hears during a point of order, and someone who makes\u2014how can I put it\u2014an almost involuntary statement. I think that Mr Goff\u2019s statement and Mr Brownlee\u2019s statement were both in that category, and that might help. Also, you could use Mr Hunt\u2019s guidance\u2014you can exercise a lighter rule on Thursdays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f0ce17f67e64e368782d3395250565f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member has made a sensible suggestion, so both members can stay for this question time. But I do make this point. I know it is Thursday and members are all anxious to go, but could we please make some progress by keeping the level of interventions to the appropriate times\u2014not during the asking of a question and not during points of order. During the answers, of course there can be interjections, but not to the point where the answer cannot be heard. Can we please make some progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022094b802c68eb4285ba05a3dcd180ff46\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister acting on behalf of the Prime Minister acknowledge that members of the public and Opposition MPs\u2014and none more so than my colleague Ron Mark\u2014have expressed concerns about the 111 call centre on many, many occasions; and, if he does acknowledge that, will he make a commitment this afternoon that in future the Minister of Police will listen more seriously and genuinely to concerns raised about police operations, or will it be a case of the same old, same old\u2014not listen to anybody, and call a report after a personal tragedy and see what the hell happens then? Which is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a949dad561c4473eb3c0daaeb004f35f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: What I will acknowledge is that following the Bentley case and the Iraena Asher case it was clear that the system was not working as it should. The commissioner, first of all, acknowledged that by setting up this review, which, I think, was a very good review. The Minister acknowledged that by undertaking to fund whatever the review required to happen so that the public could have confidence in the system. I think that both of those actions were appropriate. We are now seeing the dividends from that. The system is being fixed, and $45.5 million has been put aside to ensure that that happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022628c5f7fc070439b8962d11a9096e049\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That was a full and comprehensive answer, but it was dealing with the past. I asked the Minister about the future. I asked whether there would be a change in the attitude of the Minister of Police in listening to concerns that are raised on this side of the House. It is a simple question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa3072453364bfe96ae9333dd38136c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister said before that he was prepared to work on the basis of the objective findings of a review, and he has done that. He did the right thing in the past, and I support him doing that in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ae172b3cc64578b1b79409acb07eea\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister now instruct the Minister of Police to go on his knees to Maggie Bentley with an abject apology for calling the 111 system\u2019s handling of her desperate calls \u201Ctextbook\u201D and \u201Cexemplary\u201D, and what more would it take for the Prime Minister to call for the Minister\u2019s resignation, when he fobbed off all questions in this House about Maggie Bentley\u2019s case to the report, when the report does not mention it at all, and when she tells me today that she has never heard from the Minister\u2019s office, that she has never heard from the commissioner\u2019s office, and that she has never had any inquiry at all from any member of the New Zealand Police about that complaint?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec7651c8d0c142fd80c01bcecfa265e1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Far from fobbing off the concern, the Minister has taken steps that will see an unprecedented $45.5 million invested in the service. In relation to the question of textbook requirements for police responding to 111 calls, the textbook requirement was that if there is a dangerous individual, then another person should not be put in the position of putting his or her life at risk in the meantime while the police are responding to the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4f805066764ba99ec9bf0f675041a4\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Has the scathing review of the national management structures of the police 111 system, which are credited in the report as being \u201Cessentially defunct\u201D, with low staffing levels and woeful and inadequate training, and \u201Cself-defeating, inefficient, and risky\u201D changed the Prime Minister\u2019s mind about the level of confidence she has in the Minister and in the Commissioner of Police; if not, what would?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6cc59ec002947e5adeb5694383320e8\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: In the interests of accuracy, I think the whole of the report of the review and its summation should be brought to the House\u2019s attention. The review stated that we had a world-class technology system, it stated that we had dedicated and committed staff, it stated that the commissioner had already undertaken steps to address the problems, and\u2014and this is most important\u2014it stated that the system was \u201Creadily fixable\u201D. It will be fixed and it will be world-class, just as the report indicated that it can be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c16239f4df54d55be1d4420c92a371e\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that the report into the emergency 111 system identifies that the serious problems were not the result of inadequate resources or technology failures, but of management and leadership; if so, when does she intend to apologise for leaving a broken-down Minister in charge of the vital police portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c204e9f8f044da4b67ae904f79b0afa\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The comment made by the member does not follow. If the issue was not about resourcing but was about management issues, then that is operational and that is clearly outside the scope of the Minister to intervene. One aspect of the recommendations, recommendation 17, was about resourcing. It made the point that resourcing was just one issue. On the issue that the Minister clearly does have responsibility for, he has met his responsibility by acquiring the money needed to fix the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb5270decad4021b36febb678bd808b\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister explain why the Government has chosen to advance all her intrusive, busybody, social engineering policies while core State responsibilities, such as the safety and security concerns of the public\u2014concerns long recognised by anyone who had even a marginal interest in law and order issues\u2014have been all but marginalised, as is clearly outlined by the damning review of the police 111 system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222723026d7c49406eb914e16e234f7066\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the whole emphasis has been on the safety and security of the public. That is why we have 1,000 additional members of the police force and why we have $200 million a year extra being spent. That is an indication of the commitment of this Government to better policing and to the safety and security of the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c3c0d223fa64fbabe01a712f6f35b2c\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister now instruct the Minister of Police and the Attorney-General to apologise to those people who have been hounded to bankruptcy by pointless prosecutions for defending their families against criminal intruders, and reimburse them their legal costs, now that we have independent proof that they cannot rely on police commander control or the 111 system to protect them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41460e6ae7342fa97757971e871ccbf\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I find it bizarre for anybody, but particularly for a lawyer, to suggest the Prime Minister should interfere with a judicial process where a court has made a decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255b577d4e41f4ac696df968e9f666126\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think that Mr Hawkins\u2019 refusal to take any responsibility for the 111 crisis is a shining example of the Government\u2019s lack of commitment to the new standards of accountability she so loudly heralded upon becoming Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587bb003b4864f058168e9934a8a08bb\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Police can be accountable. He can be accountable for the additional $200 million a year being spent on the police, he can be accountable for the 1,000 extra staff, he can be accountable for the lowest level of crime in this country in 23 years, and he can be accountable for the fact that the police now have a better rate of crime resolution than they have had at any time in 21 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f9649af434b4ee68b786d1b74def259\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document that shows that if one does not make the calls, one does not make the sales, and, similarly, if one does not get the calls, one cannot make the arrests. That is how the Government has got its crime rates down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b64ae170a4f44fab661886173d9490f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table a document. What document states that? The document has not been clearly identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b04abb8c6f8240aea70912a73ccd3e09\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If the House gives me leave, I will go away and write it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff22ccbd68554f5f8dff7a30305cd643\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is starting to trifle with the House. That is an example of being disruptive. Members will settle down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225991b7bfcdf34545b36d7030d990ca5d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00225fa8af89a09a4269ad9f9edd5ad8c6ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fa8af89a09a4269ad9f9edd5ad8c6ca\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Minister of Health, but I note that she is not in the House, so I seek leave to defer it until she is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e36bf3703446579ddc45fca726c919\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to defer the question. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e4d2a56832b4bac9a0764bb84c17c14\u0022\u003EHealth, Ministry\u2014Physiotherapy Industry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1203282453542e7bbc11fa2f2a5e571\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does the Ministry of Health monitor the physiotherapy industry; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6f551759f564a59a72d124f92c60266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6f551759f564a59a72d124f92c60266\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Associate Minister of Health), \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Health: No. The responsibility lies with the Physiotherapy Board of New Zealand, which is an independent statutory board under the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd0e53af8c74708a6b8104d60fc81c1\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that many physiotherapists are being treated like crooks and fraudsters in this country, with no evidence whatsoever, and if she is not aware of that, could she make herself aware of it and investigate what the background is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8d2602319a413db400281886a6f403\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: No. But if the member is referring to a specific or personal case, I would be more than happy to hear from him and respond to him formally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218ac4743c0f14b70a370bfd188c6c11f\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that because of the roughshod treatment that has been dished out by the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC), with the full knowledge of the Minister for ACC, many physiotherapists are contemplating leaving the industry, as several already have; if she is not aware, would she take positive action to address this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b41782b1ace497992f23f99b25b0c74\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: The positive action that I will take is to refer the matter to the Minister for ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e1ede9a71c438783f21e3089fc0cd4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the Blair Government is putting a high priority on physiotherapy, and encouraging more and more people into the industry, but that we here, through ACC, with the Minister\u2019s knowledge, are doing the exact reverse; if he is not aware of that, will he personally, with the Minister of Health, sit down and discuss these issues with physiotherapist organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d42e061a582c4590879453d61028e72b\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of that, but I would be more than happy to sit down and discuss these matters with physiotherapists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e25ba4a250194e84ba93af4b60fec30e\u0022\u003EPolice, Minister\u2014P\u012Bh\u0101 Incident\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5c775086a7432eb5f22ce14730ba32\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does he stand by all the answers he has given in the House since the Iraena Asher case, now that the report on the review into the 111 system has been released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022973cddc299474b4a97d856f0914e7a0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022973cddc299474b4a97d856f0914e7a0b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Police: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f07f3175d46747f8b18753f89b2de06f\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister stand by his comment in the House that there are no ghost squads in the New Zealand Police, in light of the communications centre report that states that the police are switching calls to dummy units?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5fbb52064f2467db1b9ad6c313b01a3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Police made it clear at the time that there are Intel nodes. They take calls that do not require urgent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022190a7709c84146b5958f1f352ce3fb6c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the difference between a dummy and a ghost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd0c19f82931462b87cae53c99b11a80\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: If the member would pause and listen, I will give him the answer. There are Intel\u2014[Interruption] It is not good enough for the member to keep interjecting. If he wants to hear the answer, he will shut up and listen. The Intel node is there to take calls from the police that are not urgent calls and that do not need immediate follow-up, but that are important to log in on an intelligence basis, so that the police can determine where crimes are happening and can respond with their overall strategy to ensure that where there are hot spots, they give attention to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229023eb54068243b2a9d01ee2476f5336\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports on cuts to 111 communications centre staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253609bfc026747f284c16965befd0d16\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have received a report, and it is quite disturbing. I have a report here, dated 23 May 1999, in which the Police Association revealed plans to cut 285 non-sworn staff, including those who answer 111 calls. That, of course, was under a National Government. When Tony Ryall\u2014the man now complaining about the inadequacy of resources\u2014was Minister of Justice, he voted to support a cut in the staff who answered 111 calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0e070ec3c1940658393ab0fb61d8834\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister of Police said on television last night\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d87d93f80f9e484ca767fc7e79b4e260\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but one of his fellow front-benchers interjected and said that I was making that up. [Interruption] He has just repeated that, and he is has just interrupted my point of order as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222736d41635034a09a5c9dd15605c4780\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is true! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022969b14044c854ae59a815b55a6f2d88a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave, then, at the end of this question, to table the document wherein the Police Association revealed plans to cut 285 non-sworn staff, including those who answered 111 calls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222c0dda43c2f459198b0fb3255d2ee9a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022118fff6fa503473fa1221dce61a83c05\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We have the seeking of leave to table a document. I will take that first, and then the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a1ceede9ff84e20bc93cc9c6afac866\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek clarification. Where in the document does it state, as he said, that Tony Ryall, the Minister of Justice at the time, voted for that? There is no evidence of that in the document the Minister has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f738f690eba4c92bbc3a55338286f38\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not relevant to the tabling of the document, so we will deal with that matter first. Leave has been sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. It will not be tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226030b1a6d54a4ec39611331c972a3ddc\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister of Police said on television last night that the findings in the report were \u201Cthe fault of the police in many ways\u201D, which police was he referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aaec0c8938042de942bd8bad0c72e21\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The report, of course, makes it clear that most of the areas that need remedying are operational areas. Where the responsibility is that of the Government in terms of resourcing, that money has already been granted\u2014the $45.5 million plus $3.4 million for capital expenditure. I applaud the Minister of Police for securing that money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264c39988b8344942960865cfcb6a2c94\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Has this Minister of Police not shown himself to be completely unworthy of the post and an embarrassment to his colleagues; and if he had one ounce of integrity, would he not go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229142ce915a49410fbe061b747eea6884\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to that is no, and at the end of the Minister of Police\u2019s tenure, he will not face a referendum by the public of New Zealand, as happened embarrassingly at the end of Tony Ryall\u2019s term as Minister of Justice in 1999, when the public voted 92 percent in favour of their having no confidence in the justice policies led at that time by Mr Ryall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ed978e115094a71889aa0c0d6244be5\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility does the Minister of Police accept for his lack of leadership in tackling systemic resource and management deficits in the 111 system debacle, and is not his praise of the commissioner\u2019s performance simply a case of the rat clinging to flotsam while the police ship sinks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d23459c4faf43a6b8e6ea1d495d8afb\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I think that it is wrong for any member to suggest that our police force is not one of the best police forces in the world. That does not mean to say it is perfect. It has its faults, but it has an openness whereby it can itself ask for an independent review of a system that was not working, and then commit itself to act on that review. The Minister of Police has been far more successful than any of his predecessors, as he has been able to get nearly $50 million to give us the best system in the world. When the report\u2019s recommendations are implemented, we will have just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb59e80866c4361b8b579cd3cffaf06\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Following on from the Minister\u2019s own answers, if we have the best police force in the world, and if we have the best systems in the world, where does the fault really lie: is it with the Government as a whole for the failure to provide the resources the police have consistently said they need, is it with the Minister, or is it possibly the fault of the citizens of New Zealand for ever daring to have any confidence in this Government or in the 111 system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224424fb341a0449f881b29d08c558ba6a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The people of this country have every right to expect that there will be an effective, an efficient, and a swift response to genuine emergencies when a 111 call is made. The review report makes the point, as the member will know from reading it, that the problems that we faced in New Zealand were very similar to problems facing other police forces around the world in the area of emergency call centres. I noted with pleasure the statement made today by the chair of the review panel that he congratulated the commissioner on responding so effectively to the recommendations of the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a3b8100dd1f433faa9b1fa6539d865a\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Quality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b60e62ffe9437382391836e91760d5\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What steps is he taking to improve the quality of early childhood teaching?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002289144e5f2d7346b48c75382c704c2d5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289144e5f2d7346b48c75382c704c2d5f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E New teacher registration requirements mean that early childhood education centres must now have at least one registered teacher present at all times. By 2012 teachers will need to be qualified and registered, although 30 percent may be in training. To help centres meet these new requirements, an additional 200 TeachNZ scholarships for prospective early childhood education teachers will now be available for July 2005 enrolments. The reason for this is that the scheme has been so popular early in the year that we would run out of places if they were not made available. So they are on top of the 700 that the House has previously agreed to. The scholarships cover fees and could be worth up to $20,000 over the full duration of study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afed20c1b0f2485181347f13234ad846\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What additional steps is the Minister taking to increase participation in quality early childhood education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c47fcbca9294d209f687f19b0b14261\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: From July 2007 all 3 and 4-year-olds will be entitled to up to 20 hours per week free early childhood education in teacher-led, community-based services. This is probably the most significant change in our early childhood system in the last 50 years. Our Government is committed to giving every child the best possible start in life and our early childhood policies are world-leading in reflecting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796d705cb4a348738803581435f96c00\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that following settlement of the kindergarten teachers\u2019 collective agreement, all the incentives are geared towards early childhood teachers studying for degrees, an outcome that exacerbates the circumstances that we heard about yesterday at the select committee, where new graduates do not know how to wipe a child\u2019s nose, but have in-depth knowledge and understanding of the works of Karl Marx?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac18ff3a51d486f8612b56b51fa222a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: One would be tempted to say that it is a good thing to know that they could read. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a61855cb34e042d9a0a043a19988dcf6\u0022\u003EPolice\u2014Former Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c367e2707104483b81a778eacf8c730\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Why did she agree to prepare a brief of evidence in relation to proceedings between Peter Doone and the publisher of the Sunday Star-Times?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022179785bdc6414cc6a6b2334a7c38de5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022179785bdc6414cc6a6b2334a7c38de5d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Prime Minister: The Prime Minister was advised that if she did not provide a brief of evidence, she would be served with a witness subpoena. On that basis she agreed to provide a brief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e18a0a6d320443790e542f671214e52\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Was she threatened with a subpoena because the only reason the Sunday Star-Times was being sued was that it printed an untrue statement on the basis of her having told the reporter and editor\u2014not once, not twice, but five times\u2014that the statement was true and that they should hang tough?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230bebcfa1cfc4bb397eda9f277db7e14\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There were two questions. Firstly, the Prime Minister was not threatened with a subpoena. She was advised that one would be served. [Interruption] There is a difference. Secondly, the Prime Minister has said repeatedly that the words used were contested. I invite the member to read the police report on this matter, where he would see that the words actually used were contested by a number of different people, with a number of different variations said. The critical point was not what was precisely said; it was what the then Commissioner of Police did. Both the report made by the police themselves and the report made by the Police Complaints Authority said that this was undesirable and inappropriate, and that is why Commissioner Doone resigned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227929823a6bd449c0a044ad141553bd0b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen an article in the Molesworth \u0026amp; Featherston publication, written by a well-known cheerleader for the Government, that alleges that she wilfully misled the Sunday Star-Times on five separate occasions when she confirmed the accuracy of a statement that was never spoken, and does she agree that that is a true representation of her involvement in this case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022259dec53bc7e4d3ca559e3edee5f59de\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4abbe511414a90a5295e10b622fd16\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: How can the House have any confidence in the explanations the Prime Minister has given thus far in respect of this incident when we in the Opposition now know that in the high-speed run from Waimate to Christchurch\u2014an incident of which she has said in this House that she did not know what was happening and she had her head down and was busy working\u2014her car was travelling so close behind the escort vehicle that the front of it has had to be repainted and its front windscreen had to be replaced, because of the excessive stone damage caused during the high-speed run by the vehicle in front throwing stones on hers; how can we accept her words when we now know that she could not possibly not have known that she was speeding at that time, something she has denied all the time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af5f1b9c429347a6bb1c8f3e96d0e4da\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Knowing the Prime Minister as I do, I know that she would have been hard at work in the back seat, using every minute of her time for the good of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e774e0d1055040d19d25f0bb18f3eaa6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If we are to believe the answer the Prime Minister gave to the first supplementary question I asked, why did she not clarify the situation with the Sunday Star-Times during the two telephone conversations she had with its representatives after it had published what the Prime Minister now agrees were words that were never spoken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ef8abc45864b1c8bc29d52d0e3ebb0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: As the Prime Minister has said many times, the words that were alleged were contested. She made that absolutely clear to the Sunday Star-Times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022733c92cf607d4afbab2933fec0501ee9\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does she still see a clear line, as she explained to Lianne Dalziel, between making a misleading statement and making an untrue statement, or is this a clear line that she, as Prime Minister, by definition can never cross?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280612c2bbae24d3aaf9781c0afe8c32b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has never made a deliberately misleading statement in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ec6a920f9eb45bb9bd41a4639b4b392\u0022\u003EHealth and Disability Assistance\u2014Policy Announcements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4145458dec4daead5d1514612f719f\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment: What announcements are being made today about assistance to people with disabilities or ill health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00229da85f32b43343fcabdbf768f0c4756e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229da85f32b43343fcabdbf768f0c4756e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted that we are investing $27.7 million over the next 4 years for a major expansion of the new service for sickness and invalids benefit recipients that has already helped thousands of people move into work. This brings the total investment in the new service to $127.8 million over 4 years. We have already seen through this service a 13 percent increase in the number of people leaving sickness and invalids benefits since the service pilot began. It is clear that many people on these two benefits want to work, and now they are getting the support they need to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249cba3b07a264df084b00948d6fa247b\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: How will this additional funding improve the new service for sickness and invalids benefit recipients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ffe97e18c6f4c88bcf5673bf9706df8\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The funding will allow for work assessments to prepare 2,500 people a year for a long-term return to work, increased support for disabled job seekers and their employers, increased payments to designated doctors, and a nationwide roll-out of the programme enabling doctors to seek a second opinion to better assess sickness benefit eligibility. This is on top of existing features such as slashing case manager workloads and introducing Providing Access to Health Solutions in five regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d465dace1a00450cb36eccc2910a79e1\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is spending almost $30 million on more administration and more programmes to get 2,500 people off the sickness and invalids benefits, just how much more is she planning to spend on the staggering 120,000 working-age adults who reckon they are too sick to work, when under her watch their numbers have already grown by 39 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268435ac59e57491aa125e0c748b64def\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Despite my outlining more detail of the expenditure in my answer to the previous supplementary question, the member was extremely selective in highlighting just one of many points. We have seen a 13 percent increase in the number of people moving from sickness and invalids benefits into work since the pilots began. I note also that under the last National Government the number of people on sickness and invalids benefits actually grew by 69 percent and 84 percent respectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dac3ca0ca254b8393f3d7bd852a0ca6\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: When will all New Zealanders experiencing depression or similar mental health conditions be able to benefit from the Providing Access to Health Solutions programme and why is this key part of the new service available in only four regions rather than across the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2ff17b2343e48aa972690b6878d6e14\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the member\u2019s support for the continued expansion of this programme, and I can assure her that that is definitely on our programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022922030fbf05648e08f1b852cd68a8f88\u0022\u003EPolice, Commissioner\u2014Prime Minister\u2019s Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E7. Hon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty), on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5a0d5d7a6141af8c4bf585bc55208d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CMr Robinson is a strong and principled Commissioner\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002264ecc8681a0042c291070ee87a2d8f88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264ecc8681a0042c291070ee87a2d8f88\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes, because that is what I believe and that is his reputation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dedf997ae3b6462c8a117399116bb006\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister have full confidence in the Commissioner of Police and his performance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e62e8e8cd7124f66815cb55040840c15\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Generally, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147f1e22b8014e7182cc3adfd180ef67\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister continue with the \u201CHelengrad\u201D defence of holding no one accountable for gross failures within her administration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c74260ceb7404e36a541637ddc3179c7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The Government does find people accountable, and where action needs to be taken against them, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022138db1a0318e49a2ad5a250f62d1e128\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe that the Commissioner of Police acted appropriately when confronted with evidence of problems with the 111 system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299136df5c7cb4d8991c5548c4fafe83c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The commissioner took the appropriate action in commissioning an independent review of the communications centre when serious problems became apparent. He took appropriate action in raising with the Minister of Police the need for additional resources specifically to address the problems highlighted by the review, and he has taken appropriate action now in committing himself to fix those problems. The Government is supporting him in that task. That is why it has granted nearly $50 million to ensure that we have a world-best 111 communications centre system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd02b0acce645c3b1f35518fe4177c8\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Which part of the commissioner\u2019s performance is the Prime Minister unhappy with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a068be109148d0be1c98521906ab74\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody is perfect. Every chief executive officer does some things very well and other things less well. One makes a judgment on a person on the basis of the totality of his or her performance. The Government has been pleased with the totality of this commissioner\u2019s performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002289450bdd0904459ba70941334d7d4a13\u0022\u003E111 System\u2014Police, Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4928d1cbf5e4532908c8fdd500bbd33\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Will he be asking his police commissioner to resign in light of the scathing report into the 111 emergency call system; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00222f6308bd57d1480e8d9cac139cd30b95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f6308bd57d1480e8d9cac139cd30b95\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Police: No, because the New Zealand Police, under the current commissioner, has overall been very effective in delivering record reductions in crime rates in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f35c215b53d4557a77cd6b1bce85aaa\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister expect the public\u2019s confidence in the 111 emergency system to be restored when neither he nor the police commissioner, who has had a $70,000 per year pay rise and a 2-year extension to his contract, and who has known about these failings and the potential for disaster for 3 years, did anything, and when neither the Minister nor the commissioner has accepted responsibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de51d4092d2246ae902de6f48e787d4d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I expect the public to have confidence in the system, because an independent and comprehensive review was ordered. The money was provided to implement the recommendations of that review, and the police commissioner not only has committed himself to implementing the recommendations but has already begun that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d70f34f6a4a34b6780eee43803c885b1\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister satisfied that the Commissioner of Police has delivered results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b63ecd910959409ba3267522060411a3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am satisfied that the commissioner has delivered results. He has taken the $200 million in extra funding that the Government has given him, he has taken the 1,000 extra staff members that the Government has given him, and he has applied those resources effectively to deliver crime reductions that mean that we now have a crime rate that is the lowest in 23 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee40a823aebd430294391b071fa0ef59\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Then how does the Minister explain his comments on the radio this morning, when he said that the Government makes available the appropriate resources, that it is up to the police to provide the services, and that 99.9 percent accuracy in the emergency 111 system is not good enough; how does the Minister explain his criticising and chastising of the police this morning on the radio, when he is now saying that they are doing a wonderful job and that the commissioner should not be fired?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229858e72c5d454fe5a358635bce6b535c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Easily, because overall our police force is doing a very good job. I, along with most New Zealanders, have had a gutsful of Opposition members who continually belittle and demean the police instead of getting behind them and supporting them. They are doing a great job overall, but that does not mean that everything they do is absolutely right. Where they are not doing things right, we expect an improvement. This review will deliver the improvement that we expect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221667562a31a4ae48c44b40dab0b568b\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is not one of the reasons the Government is so happy to hang with the Commissioner of Police his compliance with the Government\u2019s public relations demands, such that he would release this report, dated 12 May, a day early to try to help the Government, under the cover of the foot-and-mouth issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fffabcb3e3544c59842cdeb69be1fdd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The member has just given an example of the sorts of attacks on the integrity of our top civil servants that I was referring to before. The member should know that that report was brought forward because the police senior team was gathered in Wellington on that day. It was released on that occasion. Whatever day it was to be released on, it was going to get the headlines it has received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256f88cafe08741cd9fce3af9b249153d\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a quantity of press releases and reports from Mr Goff and Mr Mallard that criticise and attack top public servants like Christine Rankin, Peter Doone, and Mr Martin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296c0387f660a4592bbccb24b29125d29\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table an assorted array of press statements. Is there any objection? There is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3d1fbeab31842748527180c78461e61\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Bullying\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5bdb5f2284e45b5857d911a829a2a35\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education: Does he stand by his reported comments that: \u201CCyber bullying was nasty and had to stop,\u201D, and is his policy one of zero tolerance to bullying in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022778dbd95dab64fe39ea8f7dc261d6c65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022778dbd95dab64fe39ea8f7dc261d6c65\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by those comments, and I am sure that all members of the House would agree that bullying in schools is a problem that has no place in our educational institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8fe58e52b024719b40329fdd5ede8cb\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the Minister used to cane students particularly hard while teaching at Bayfield High School, and throw tennis balls at them in the classroom if they misbehaved; if so, how can he have any credibility in speaking out against bullying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31f88cd0ba94b10b164cb18c848e49d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did use corporal punishment, in line with the school policy of the time, but, like many of my colleagues, I have come to believe that corporal punishment is a totally inappropriate form of discipline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228529329791e84d4fb4f1f172ec260d11\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What programmes has the Government introduced to increase cyber-safety for students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0abfea215df4d82864b09110a20f4fa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I was delighted on Monday this week to attend the first of a series of around 200 NetSafe workshops taking place in 19 centres around New Zealand. That meeting was in Palmerston North. That workshop was an extension of a successful pilot series of 30 workshops held last year. The Government has provided $300,000 to enable these workshops to be delivered across the country. In addition to boards of trustees, workshops will be delivered to other key school personnel, school principals, cyber-safety managers, information and communications technology managers, and library personnel. Members will be pleased to know that the NetSafe programme is world leading, and that educational officials from the US state of Georgia will soon be visiting New Zealand with a view to establishing the programme there. The programme is also most significantly supported by Vodafone. I am further advised that it is the first mobile phone provider in the world to have joined in such a comprehensive programme to eliminate text bullying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297782c7b41154cbdb83c3a03962411ea\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Did he ever tie boys\u2019 hands together and jam a tennis ball into their mouths as punishment for talking, when he was a teacher at Bayfield High School, and if these allegations prove to be correct, does he believe they compromise his ability to promote an anti-bullying campaign in schools, or is that just corporal punishment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068ea99cb138425cba9346b54d025016\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: You sat on that for months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad1d7e7b31949d0998def0120c95b06\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I find such allegations ridiculous, and I refute them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ead71cc35b4de8871edfb6064d9e5c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Did he ever smack a pupil with the back of his hand, sufficiently hard to make his nose bleed, at a school camp in the Catlins; if so, is that the reason, along with throwing tennis balls at pupils in the classroom, that he has the reputation of being a terrible bully, and that, in fact, his students to this day still suffer from his treatment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1f176831084733ae81f2addef5f1ff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: That is a disgraceful allegation and I refute it completely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d1fc733a75416abdf4f515beb8e057\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When the chief Government whip called out \u201CYou sat on that for months.\u201D, does that mean that the Prime Minister is aware of the allegations swirling around this Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022096936b0d0654f27aaa3bca70b0043bb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f55133e0cd64dc1ae7ddd56bc824f0d\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: It is a supplementary question. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f9662b210b485caf10c6a6260309c3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. So the supplementary question is to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e65376e6dc948d7ac9b2a734b9f7587\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does that mean that he told the Prime Minister of these allegations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9817f9343a4426ab083f82369d43a68\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c7d990cf8564c528b3e1744ae429207\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Would everyone sit down, please. So we had a point of order that then turned into a supplementary question. Is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9d7a4b34f284e2792dbeb7f8ca2d017\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I did not call out \u201Cpoint of order\u201D. It was a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ebac56d6b454f7ba9b85abf639f9ac0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ac6737599d4bbd8f721d2fabcdc65e\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The chief Government whip was heard to call out on several occasions: \u201CYou sat on that for a long time.\u201D, obviously referring to you, as Speaker. You did not bring her to heel. We know that her colleagues refer to her as \u201CPaint Stripper\u201D; her voice is particularly penetrating, and I do ask that she be asked to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae37a45fe3b7465589d38fc3776bf3cd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for drawing that to my attention. Could we please now have the supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221addb547a9454f70be974c147c4690c9\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When the chief Government whip called out before words to the effect that \u201CYou\u2019ve sat on that for a long time.\u201D, does he believe that he has advised the Prime Minister of the allegations surrounding his conduct as a teacher at Bayfield High School?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bf5789939424d2aab31d9e0f9fd91c3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have no responsibility for what the senior Government whip says. As I said earlier, I find the allegations made by the member opposite ridiculous, and I refute them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e1b83a273e47ac85d68e78247bd741\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I just want to clarify to the person who has now taken my title away from me that she has completely misrepresented my interjection, and I want to make that abundantly clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a9f00659fc44ca6b26c495e33c4a918\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure that was a point of order, either. I do not want to get into tit for tat points of order on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c1467ceb46a46f2a39c3ed2d8b3f6f1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister was asked effectively whether the Prime Minister was aware of these allegations. Certainly, the less-than-spontaneous response from the senior Government whip has indicated that. Although the Minister may want to refute those allegations, and that is his prerogative, it is of interest to the House to know whether the Prime Minister is aware of the allegations, as far as he is aware.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f52c8489be47acb9fb088494c401d4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is not answerable for whether the Prime Minister is aware. In answering the question, however, he did address the point that was the substance of the question, or was part of the question also, as to refuting the allegations that were made. I think the answer did address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edf1ecdebce945ee856a25c8111e4a99\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Will he resign as Minister if it transpires that, indeed, he did throw tennis balls at his students in the classroom, and tie their hands up and stuff tennis balls in their mouths, as punishment for talking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d61b2f3fc8be4bf7911af8f06457dcc1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, I refute the allegations made about what is quite clearly illegal behaviour, as such. If the member has any such information he should take that to the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d808a10832048c3a3a5ddeb4a65311f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I note the Minister did not address my question. I specifically asked him, given that he has denied the allegations several times, whether he would resign if they turn out to be true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af94f85335ec487e90af8c9c42bf3ef8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister, in answering the question, did address it by refuting the fundamental premise of your question. So it was addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd5bc7e36b024c5c98de4db274d8b897\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. When you interrupted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246d88622719d404d99ef3a52e42aa98b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member contesting my ruling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbc77185f8f443b0ac689bf5ecb438e0\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221db7ef725b449429ec7dba51fd9bddd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8bb98be5e304e33a7e811912a1d9fc5\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a09812c02b6442da8792471ef03112b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is it then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee1aeaeeed14097b3a13f2e2855f8a9\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: When you ruled on my point of order, I think the Minister was getting up to answer the question properly, and he sat back down. I wonder whether you could allow him to stand up and answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220589b368053f497fb1f88a037459a0a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I am quite happy to confirm, and repeat, my statement earlier that I have not been guilty of, or involved in, any inappropriate behaviour in my 24 years as a secondary school teacher. As well, I am not aware of any complaint of any kind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b1f62a36284712885d1391e042095f\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When he said: \u201CStuff like that can come back to haunt you.\u201D, was he speaking of himself, or of his students at Bayfield High School?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ab32474f7349d88f24d9c9f89101a6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I was referring to the article that was the subject of the Otago Daily Times report about cyber-bullying 2 days ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2cc3fe9941f418ebeee2738e6f0688c\u0022\u003ECourt Buildings\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba67a5b0807641aa93752f5ecf4966c5\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Courts: What recent announcements has he made regarding funding for the improvement of court buildings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002295fb1264f930412d9b2bdaab8394a02f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295fb1264f930412d9b2bdaab8394a02f\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Today I announced additional funding of $39 million, targeted at five key buildings and property projects. The new Budget money is part of a long-term capital works programme to bring our courts back up to a modern standard and to make them a safe place to visit. The funding will provide new courthouses to replace the Levin and Invercargill courts, while the courts at Hastings and Manukau will be overhauled and expanded. The package will also include provision for the funding of land purchases at New Plymouth. It continues the Government\u2019s commitment to improving court buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd79abe0817408a800c0c51e6c86757\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Will those five upgrades, including the $6 million for a new courthouse at Levin, include improvements to courtroom security?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfd18212e85441e1b74d27b697561cd1\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The upgrade at Levin was welcomed by the local member and the local people. I can also say that the improvements will be a continuation of developments to provide the public with one point of entry, to provide court security staff with a greater degree of control. One point of entry will mean that security will be much like it is at airports. Courts will have a screening point, at which point they will have a greater level of assurance about staff safety and the safety of the judiciary. That is a significant improvement and is an advancement in providing a modern, safe court environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aad288ed3db34c2d8146add1af5f90eb\u0022\u003EZimbabwe\u2014Cricket Tour\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242274dcec6994d99870db6f69342a810\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade: What advice, if any, has he given New Zealand Cricket on the actions that it could take to ensure the proposed Black Caps tour of Zimbabwe could not be exploited for political purposes by the Mugabe regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022acb5a0dd04d04339813768b3f8c905e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acb5a0dd04d04339813768b3f8c905e1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I have advised New Zealand Cricket of the Government\u2019s concern that if it decides to go ahead with the tour, it may be drawn into situations where it is wrongly portrayed as endorsing the Mugabe regime. I have referred New Zealand Cricket to the actions that the English cricket team took when touring Zimbabwe last year, to avoid that possibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022852e46bcfba94a63856cdf1b49152b1b\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Prime Minister\u2019s personal view is now the official view of the Government\u2014that is, to quote from the Minister\u2019s letter to me: \u201CIt would be preferable that the cricket team not travel to Zimbabwe.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250da57d758ed43238000c3c55ef61f4e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225050dbebe20647e88f7a26542aeec85b\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Prime Minister that New Zealand Cricket should not be going to Zimbabwe either on political or security grounds; and has he drawn New Zealand Cricket\u2019s attention to the official advice on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade website that, because of political unrest, independent travel to Zimbabwe is strongly advised against and that visitors should avoid public gatherings, which presumably include cricket games?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfb3bb3252ff424dbddf850c08934283\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure New Zealand Cricket is aware of the travel advisory, which is as the member has outlined\u2014although it does talk about independent travel, which has a different connotation, of course, from travel by a cricket side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e079574d5e594e80937c1fd822f2ff6e\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government sought to direct New Zealand Cricket not to go to Zimbabwe; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c124d485774a95bca4b374247128e1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, because no New Zealand Government has ever sought to direct New Zealand sportspeople or teams as to where they should travel or whom they should play sports with outside New Zealand. We are also conscious of the obligations that New Zealand Cricket has in respect of the rules set by the International Cricket Council, and the consequences it would face if it were to breach those rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e4e315548344bcbb1de4d3380cf9fee\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This is probably not strictly a point of order, but I would like to help the Minister. What about Robert Muldoon and the Moscow Olympics? Is he sure he wants to say that no Government will ever direct them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f18ef87d62a48a0b9e56e4e43ee4955\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. The member is right; he has analysed that correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f11920745ad49d39faf43cdb6c96959\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Prime Minister, who told the University of Cape Town in 2002 that \u201Cdubious ethics\u201D were involved every time any New Zealand representative team played in South Africa while apatheid prevailed; and does he agree that it would similarly be a case of dubious ethics if the Black Caps tour of Zimbabee proceeds; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a335ff21ff4c44888b646697692beeb2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to the first question is \u201CYes\u201D, and to the second question, \u201CNo\u201D. The reason for the difference is that there is a difference between playing sport against a team that was inherently part of the apatheid system and chosen on apatheid grounds, and the Zimbabwe cricket team, many members of which, I suspect, strongly oppose what their own Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfdc70d6df4b4e9ab99e552e0d856411\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: What advice does he have for Black Caps captain Stephen Fleming on why the tour should not go ahead, in the light of Fleming\u2019s statement that if the information he reads about Zimbabwe suggests that it is not wise to go and that a boycott will make a difference, he will consider pulling out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022203fd97cc7c042058c45bd5a42559e2f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, any individual player can make his own choice in that regard. That is different from the team as a whole deciding not to tour, in terms of the consequences from the International Cricket Board point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7944a8b98034b4bb64a37cec387e16d\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister sought legal advice on what steps the New Zealand Government could take to enable New Zealand Cricket to invoke the force majeure clause of its contract with other national cricket boards, so that its withdrawal from the tour would be acceptable non-compliance and therefore not subject to financial penalty; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf2a06351934df4b49a49837e9fc9e9\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, because that is a matter for New Zealand Cricket itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1201a6dc1841da9a1149f977846a0b\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the force majeure clause of the contract, which talks about any action taken by a Government or public authority of any kind, including, without limitation, not granting a consent, exemption, approval, or clearance, or imposing any restriction or prohibition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225aa8b5154c84fc9b4b8632d853c5124\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8f4deab464249139dd460324d818698\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8f4deab464249139dd460324d818698\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table a document that shows Vote Police between 1970 and 2004, including the time from 1997 to 1998 when the Rt Hon Winston Peters was Treasurer, and when Vote Police was increased both times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002263598fddb1c74f50a8bde16c0047f7af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263598fddb1c74f50a8bde16c0047f7af\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a document that shows in at least 3 years under a National Government\u2014and one of those was a National - New Zealand First Government\u2014the Budget-night appropriation for the police was down on the previous year\u2019s expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022087dbb678c2c43568ef0993196df9a2d\u0022\u003EHospitals\u2014Outpatient Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205beb8289bc04fb1a97f4bedf73fd370\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is she satisfied that hospitals have sufficient resources to ensure that New Zealanders requiring outpatient services get the treatment they need; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad6a8564ba1d4fd6822ce66453e167ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad6a8564ba1d4fd6822ce66453e167ca\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Health: Yes. This year this Government will provide over $7.5 billion to district health boards. This money is fairly distributed between district health boards, according to the relative needs of their populations, and the cost of providing health and disability support services to meet those needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6dddf110a064cedbeb1694a604542f9\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that when patients at Wellington Hospital renal unit have been having their dialysis hours cut virtually in half and have been suffering debilitating symptoms, it is acceptable that staffing levels are used as an excuse, when it takes as little as 6 weeks to train patients with no medical background in home dialysis, and surely skilled and trained nurses could be brought up to speed in no more than a couple of weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa30434c090d40c9a01beb041fc65518\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Capital and Coast District Health Board advises that it has experienced a significant increase in the need for dialysis; that more staff are, therefore, needed; that a number of those staff have already begun; that it will be back to its new, bigger than before, complement on or about 3 June; and that it is unaware of any acute readmissions as a result of unmet demand for dialysis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d118181496ee4aea9c969268c8aada73\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of very successful trials of nurse-run outpatient clinics for conditions such as diabetes and respiratory illnesses at the Lower Hutt district health board, and does she agree that using these sorts of nurse-run clinics more extensively right throughout New Zealand would be one way of ensuring that more New Zealanders needing outpatient services get the treatment that they need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fbeee4f07584b7f9687675183aa080c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I regret that I am not aware.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229287aed78f2e434ca0bea3ef95f258f5\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister concede that the level of further training for an already skilled nurse, so that he or she can work in the area of dialysis, is little more than a couple of weeks; if so, why is she prepared to tolerate 12 months of perpetual excuse of not enough staff in the Wellington Hospital renal unit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fea6b2365b54c37be43c9d53cb325f5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of a 12-month staff shortage, but I am aware that the Capital and Coast District Health Board will have a very large complement of dialysis staff on or before 3 June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248fa4f2d40c74b27b3f815081d7056b4\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider dialysis a vital life support procedure, and that reducing it by a third, and having patients turn yellow, puff up, and pass out by the time they are on dialysis, is acceptable; and when will the patients there receive reassurance that they will not have to live week by week never knowing what level of treatment they will get, so that they can supply their employers, for instance, with clear messages regarding their wellness to work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227755f4245fd84ce08d8711ba47a81835\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said earlier, Capital and Coast District Health Board advises that it is unaware of any acute readmissions as a result of unmet demand for dialysis. I am aware of a woman\u2014maybe there is more than one\u2014who was able to make it to work on the Saturday before last and has medical advice to that effect. I am sure that it does affect lives to some extent. The answer to the last part of the member\u2019s question is that it will be on or before 3 June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022514d76453e264854a86907e44eef27f5\u0022\u003EMedicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d04f613629534b9093a822bd73ed3cd8\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022d33053bb86ae4d7e8ad9e0080c8d6fb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d33053bb86ae4d7e8ad9e0080c8d6fb4\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Health: I move, That the Medicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. This bill was introduced to the House on 5 April 2005 and referred to the Health Committee, with a report due by 28 May 2005. The shortened period for select committee consideration was due to the need for the bill to be enacted before the current controls on xenotransplantation end, with the expiry of Part 7A of the Medicines Act on 30 June 2005. The Health Committee presented its report on the bill on Wednesday, 4 May 2005, and I thank that committee for its prompt consideration of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EXenotransplantation is the transplantation of living biological material from one species to another. Recent advances in technology have increased the possibility of successful xenotransplantation, and stimulated research in that area. Current controls were introduced in response to potential safety concerns around xenotransplantation. The Medicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill extends the period of controls on xenotransplantation until 31 December 2006, with the ability for that date to be extended by Order in Council if necessary. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00223be8f76593cb4edb904ab38d85e58d43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223be8f76593cb4edb904ab38d85e58d43\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party is not supporting the Medicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill for a number of very important reasons. The first reason is that we do not believe that the Government has truly evaluated the scientific impact of increasing the moratorium on that kind of work. Time and time again scientists have complained that they are not able to do the work they want to do in order to stay at the top of their game. We are seeing too many scientists leave the country because of the regulations and rules here that do not allow them to be at the forefront of their scientific research, or to ensure they are able to maintain their reputations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe second reason, which I suppose is indicative of the Luddite approach this Government has taken, is that if there are unknowns the Government has a King Canute, \u201Chold back the tides\u201D style of approach, and it puts a moratorium on things so that work cannot be done. In fact, that is not a way of trying to deal with the situation, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe people involved in that kind of research take their work very seriously; they are not mad scientists. They want to provide new solutions for New Zealanders, many of whom are waiting for life-saving treatments and operations. We need to remember the human face of this particular problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIn this country we have a low donation rate for organs. We have low donation rates for kidneys and livers. Many, many people are on dialysis, or are facing all sorts of health issues, because they cannot get transplants. There simply are not enough live human donors to be able to give them other options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EToday we heard Judy Turner bring up an issue that, I think, indicates the problems faced by many of those people waiting for organs\u2014the problems we currently have with our renal dialysis units. A growing number of people are waiting for transplants, and they are trying to fit into dialysis units that are already bursting at the seams, particularly in the North Island. Given the rising number of diabetics and people requiring dialysis as a result of obesity or ethnic predisposition to kidney problems, we will be facing a huge problem in this country when it comes to providing renal dialysis for a huge number of New Zealanders. There will simply not be enough donors for those people, and we have to look at other options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EXenotransplantation, if approached in a very careful way, can provide solutions for many New Zealanders but, as far as this bill is concerned, it is as if the people do not matter. The Government seems to think that the people waiting for those life-saving operations have time on their hands. The Government wants to look as if it is doing something greenish in that area, but it just wants to put science on hold as opposed to letting reasonable people go about their work so that, hopefully, they can provide some life-saving solutions for those Kiwis in the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThere has been a consultation process, which I have to describe as a bit of a sham. Up and down the country there was some so-called public consultation, but it was not well-publicised and none of the consultations were well-attended. People who took part in some of those consultations came back with absolutely bizarre stories of people turning up and being concerned that if a person had a kidney replaced with a pig\u2019s kidney, that person would start acting like a pig. That just shows that the level of knowledge out there is absolutely ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI am concerned that a number of new reasons are being dreamt up every day to work against what could be a life-saving solution for many, many New Zealanders. The issue of cultural sensitivity has been raised time and time again as an example of why we should tread carefully. Well, I have to say that if people are going to use cultural sensitivity as a way of slowing this work down, they must think twice. People do not have to have kidney transplants or liver transplants if they are totally against those procedures. They do not have to take part in scientific trials if they think it would be to the detriment of their health but, for heaven\u2019s sake, they should not disallow such a procedure for other Kiwis who are quite happy to take the risk because it might make a difference to their lives. The opponents of that work should not stand in the way of Kiwis who have no other options\u2014who are facing death, or such deterioration that their quality of life is hugely affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESo this bill is nothing more than a delaying tactic. There is no logic behind it, and there is no scientific merit in it, either. There is a lot of hysteria, which has been beaten up by the Government. A lot of populist reasons are given for supporting this bill, but those reasons do not stack up either scientifically or logically, and it seems to me that the Government has forgotten the people in New Zealand who are waiting desperately to get those sorts of operations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EFor example, people might take the opportunity to get a pig kidney transplant because they have been on dialysis for many, many years. Anybody who has seen someone go through dialysis knows that it is an incredibly difficult procedure to go through. It is a very oppressive procedure to go through, and it has a huge impact on people\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Government members who are putting this bill forward that they should explain their logic, because I cannot see any. While they are wanting to look as if they are being green and reacting to concerns, I do not see those concerns being raised. Government members are trying to whip up concern by going through this sham of a consultation process, and by dreaming up all sort of reasons why xenotransplantation is a bad idea, but there has been no groundswell of support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things that a person who attended a consultation pointed out to me was the fact that the consultations were very poorly attended. The public were not well informed that there was a consultation process in place and, in fact, a lot of the different groups that actually speak on behalf of Kiwis waiting for life-saving operations were not even in a position to let their members know to go along and take part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWhat we are talking about here is delaying science. What we are talking about here is delaying the opportunity for New Zealand scientists to take part and contribute at the forefront of scientific endeavour. We are seeing nothing more than a Luddite approach to dealing with some serious issues. By all means, let us ensure that good science is being undertaken in this country and that research funded by Kiwi taxpayers is good, evidence-based scientific research. But let us stop pretending that those scientists who work within our Crown research institutes and universities are mad weirdoes who need heavy regulation to stop them going off and undertaking Frankenstein-like scientific projects. It simply will not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWhile hysteria is beaten up and those sorts of examples are given, we have people waiting for dialysis at a cost of $1,500 a week. We are not able to get good numbers of donors, because the number of live human donors required is simply not available. By all means let us look at other solutions, then, so that we can get those people waiting back into a fully active life, and let us stop pretending that there is some logical reason for holding back the scientific tide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThere is no reason for delay. It seems just a small delay and not a huge amount of time, yet in the scientific world it is a huge amount of time. Time waits for no scientific men or women who are trying to maintain their scientific reputations at the forefront of that kind of work. It is no wonder New Zealand is seen as being a bit of a scientific backwater these days, because so many of our best and brightest have gone offshore so that they can continue working at a level that befits their reputations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis sort of piecemeal approach to extending moratoriums is not based in logic, and it is certainly not based in science. I do not think it is a compassionate approach to dealing with the growing problem we have in this country\u2014that is, the problem of the number of people facing kidney disease, a problem that is endemic within our society. If we do not start looking at other solutions, some of the systems we have in place will not be sustainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ETrying to get on dialysis treatment in Auckland right now means facing a real difficulty. It was one issue that came up time and time again when we spoke to district health boards. The rate of increased use of dialysis units is growing at an unsustainable level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWhy are we closing our minds to different alternatives? Why are we pretending that scientific endeavour can be put on hold so that the Government can make political capital out of a very serious issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e65b0d7b5b43497ca1905e835270ba8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e65b0d7b5b43497ca1905e835270ba8e\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I was extremely disappointed in the Opposition member\u2019s speech on this bill. It showed that she has not read Part 7A of the Medicines Act, and that she has not read the screeds of submission papers made when this moratorium was implemented, or any of the papers that came out of a conference of international experts, held in Boston, on the subject of xenotransplantation. It also showed that she is not listening to the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThis legislation extends the moratorium on the controls\u2014I point out to the member, Katherine Rich, that this legislation does not ban them\u2014on xenotransplantation of animal to human organs. She is obviously not aware of the fact that since the moratorium has been in place there have not been applications by people asking to do this. So we are not holding back science, because there have not been any applications. Had the member listened during the select committee deliberations when this information was presented, she would have noted that the committee was told that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThis bill is about a moratorium. There is extensive public dialogue about bioethics. There has been a good deal of publicity. I have attended public meetings in my city that were attended by a large number of scientists involved both in medicine and in agricultural research. They know a great deal about the subject. I look forward to the report of the Bioethics Council on this matter, and to more public discussion on the chance of retrovirus infection. We are still not sure, from the research that has been done, whether the pigs that are being used are absolutely clear and cannot transmit a retrovirus. On a day when we are anxious about foot-and-mouth disease in New Zealand, I think that when talking about animal to human organ transplantation we must apply the precautionary principle, as is being done in Australia and Britain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00227728a535a4f74d7090c2decc0b57fdbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227728a535a4f74d7090c2decc0b57fdbd\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I rise to speak to the Medicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First supports this legislation, which will extend the current controls on xenotransplantation until 31 December 2006, due to the ongoing concerns about the safety of this experimental technique. We recognise that biotechnology is advancing very rapidly, but we are also aware that bioethics is a very complex field. New Zealand First believes that more research is required before these procedures become an accepted part of transplantation, and that we should proceed with caution until we are sure of our ground. It is an important issue and it needs to be right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe are also very aware that the Bioethics Council has recently completed the first round of public dialogue meetings in many centres. That produced active participation and debate. I quote from the Bioethics Council\u2019s press release from 15 April 2005 when Chris Nichol, who has facilitated quite a number of these public meetings, said that \u201Cpeople have really got their heads around this one\u201D. He then went on to say: \u201CNo single issue dominated the dialogue events, different issues were emphasised in different regions. The Wellington dialogue focused, amongst other topics, on the regulatory framework of xenotransplantation, while Christchurch concentrated on animal welfare, humanness and alternative remedies to xenotransplantation. In Auckland, participants didn\u2019t agree on the status of animals. Some believed there wasn\u2019t enough dialogue discussion in regards to animal welfare, and want to raise it again at the reconvened event in a fortnight. Xeno-tourism has come in for discussion. This relates to people entering New Zealand having undertaken xenotransplantation procedures offshore which are not approved here. The concern is the potential risk to public health.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIt appears from this that public interest in xenotransplantation and the work of the Bioethics Council is very high. I understand, too, that the council will produce a report on xenotransplantation that is to be presented to the Government in August. We will be most interested in that. I believe we should have some trust and faith in the Bioethics Council, and in the people who are responsible for making decisions about those matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EA number of safety and technical concerns have been identified, and, of course, there are only a very limited number of animal or human studies of possible efficacy. During the select committee process, Ministry of Health officials advised us that the human immune system rapidly attacks and rejects tissue from animals, which means that most xenotransplants fail rather rapidly. I know that scientists are exploring options to try to solve those particular problems. As we can see, it is still a very experimental technique. The evidence indicates that xenotransplantation has the potential to be associated with an increased risk of transmission of a wide range of viral, bacterial, and other infections that are known to occur in the source animals. That means there may be the risk of a new infection jumping the species barrier. We already have one of those uncontrollable infections in the form of bird flu, because, as we all know, there are currently no known antidotes to control avian flu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EI looked on the Internet to find other examples of new infectious diseases that emerged in other species and were transmitted to humans. They include HIV and the 1918 human influenza virus, which was actually a mutation of the swine flu virus. Although we acknowledge that infections may be minimised in the same way as for human infections, we also acknowledge that science does not know of all the infectious organisms that may infect humans. Like any other new disease, those new viruses will be very difficult to identify\u2014they usually take some time\u2014and there may not be effective medications to help the people who actually have those viruses. What about the transmission of those viruses? That will also be very difficult to identify. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EI know that Dr Hutchison will agree that it is now recognised that pigs carry an inactive retrovirus within their genetic structure. At this stage, whether that retrovirus can cause infection in humans is totally unknown. Also, those retroviruses may remain dormant in the host for a long time before they actually emerge to cause disease in humans. Although we recognise that there is a chronic organ shortage in New Zealand\u2014as we heard at the select committee, and, of course, from previous speakers\u2014we do not want to see the transmission of retroviruses to humans via xenotransplantation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EAt this stage, there is a considerable potential risk to human health, and this is one of the areas that the debate is all about, along with the ethical, spiritual, and cultural issues. We believe that the moratorium needs to remain in place until all the issues associated with xenotransplantation are resolved to a far greater degree than they are at present. When we look at some of the countries we often like to compare ourselves with, we see, for example, that in Australia in December 2004 the National Health and Medical Research Council announced a 5-year moratorium on clinical trials of xenotransplantation. In Canada, clinical trials cannot proceed without the approval of Health Canada. Ministry of Health officials who briefed the Health Committee were unaware of any clinical trials on humans that had been given approval by Health Canada. Again, in the UK there are no trials under way. So the approach that New Zealand is following is in line with that of those countries. We cannot afford to rush in when we have neither the knowledge nor structures in place in our hospitals to assist patients with the problems and challenges they may experience after xenotransplantation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe have all told the Minister of Health, and we all know ourselves, that our hospitals are stretched to the limit, so why add another dimension that they cannot cope with at this point in time? We really believe that we should not go out on a limb on this matter. Why rush in where angels fear to tread? We need the widest possible views on this issue\u2014more than just the views of those who stand to benefit if the research leads to future benefits for a particular group. It needs to be right. There is no groundswell of support out in the public arena at this point in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe are also aware that in 2002 a New Zealand company conducted human trials in Mexico, and it was proposed that some trials be carried out in the Cook Islands. One of the reasons, more than likely, that those countries were chosen is the fact that they do not have the appropriate regulatory authorities to develop guidelines to safeguard the patients, and the people with whom they come into contact. So it is really much easier for those companies to go overseas and carry out their testing. Of course, we have never heard of any results from that testing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First believes that, at this stage, the risk has to be weighed against the possible benefit to the recipients. We believe that the studies are inadequate and do not counterbalance the potential risks involved. Human trials are not justified at this point in time. While the research is at an experimental stage, we believe the moratorium should remain in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002290900a9c152842bab41ae00aad2064d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290900a9c152842bab41ae00aad2064d3\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The Medicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill is not about xenotransplantation; it is actually about the extension of a moratorium. It has been very interesting to sit here and listen to the speeches so far. We would think that the bill is about suddenly allowing research to happen in this country, as I\u2014and I think the National Party\u2014feel that it should. Without this bill, the existing additional controls on xenotransplantation will end on 30 June 2005, with the expiry of Part 7A of the Medicines Act. After that date, the scientific and ethical oversight will return to the controls utilised for clinical trials of medicines contained within section 30 of the Medicines Act, and I think that that is what this debate should be about. It should not be about the merit, or otherwise, of xenotransplantation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe reason we have this bill before us now\u2014it has gone through the select committee process, but barely touched the table in the process, I might add\u2014is that the Government is kicking for touch. It does not want a proper discussion about xenotransplantation in the lead-up to a general election. It does not want those matters to be discussed properly by the public. It just wants to delay this issue until after the election, when opposition to it will not be as strong. I think that we should provide\u2014[Interruption] No, it will be here. The reason, of course, is that the Government, and also the Greens, do not want to have this discussion. Some reasoned debate might be heard, instead of the one-sided debate we are hearing at the moment. Parties in this Parliament that should know better\u2014of course I do not include the Greens in that\u2014are promoting fear and unreasonable argument around the subject. The Government is kicking for touch; it wants to extend the moratorium so that the discussion does not have to happen before 30 June, because, as we know, an election is before us. This is about political expediency, rather than anything else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe National Party member made some very interesting and pertinent comments. She said that this bill is about delaying science, and that is exactly what it is. We should be having proper discussion. We should be discussing the issues properly, and in an informed environment. But this legislation is about delaying science, and about delaying New Zealand scientists\u2019 ability to participate in good-quality research that we know has some very beneficial effects\u2014research that will help, and will save people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe research, as we know, used to occur in New Zealand, and I have met one of the five people, I think it was, who has benefited hugely from xenotransplantation research. She was a participant, and she is now leading a very productive, happy, and a healthier, life as a result. Without this research, she would have been looking at a very different picture. Those critics who are not prepared to enter into the debate properly\u2014those critics who want to keep this moratorium going on and on forever, as the Green Party does, so that no research can ever take place\u2014should take note of the terrible circumstances in which some people have to live their lives, when they could be benefiting significantly from research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWe have rigorous regulatory regimes in this country. There has been much surrounding research. There has been much talk about the Bioethics Council from several previous speakers, and consultation around the country. So if we can talk about those things in a consultative manner, why do we not just call for the debate to happen properly? I wonder why the Greens are supporting this legislation to extend the moratorium. Well, it is obvious why. But if they say they want to have the debate, why do they not oppose this legislation and have the debate properly before the election, as Ms Kedgley says she wants to? Why are the Greens supporting the legislation? Why do they not call for the debate? If they are so confident about their cause, the debate will be held. Perhaps xenotransplantation will be banned, once and for all\u2014which is exactly what she wants, I believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EOne thing we do not do in this country is trust our scientists. We do not trust our research, and we do not trust our Bioethics Council to come to the proper resolution when scientific topics are discussed. I certainly trust scientists; I have a great deal of faith in them. But we are now seeing a promotion of fear and unreasonable expectation of what the scientific community can produce in this country. One of the issues that is always put forward when we talk about xenotransplantation is the difficulties with retroviruses. There is much concern about this\u2014quite rightly so\u2014and that is why we must have rigorous regulatory regimes surrounding any research that takes place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand First speaker spoke at length about retroviruses. I wonder why she, as a member of a party that worries so much about immigration, omitted to say in her speech that we should be screening all our tourists and immigrants to this country, at the border, for retroviruses. Do we do anything about tourists coming into this country? Do we test them, or screen them for retroviruses? Are we concerned about any pandemics that might result from a retrovirus being carried in by a tourist or an immigrant? No, there is not a whimper about that. Maybe the Green member will talk about that; I do not know. But certainly the New Zealand First members, who worry inordinately about immigrants, and we have heard in the last 2 weeks\u2014[Interruption] No, no. I am not. I am asking why New Zealand First members did not mention it if they are so worried about it. It seems that they have an unreasonable fear of research, but are not worried at all about retroviruses being carried into the country by immigrants and tourists. The reason, of course, is that the risk is very low, but if that is to be promoted as a reason to stop research, it should also be promoted as a reason to stop immigrants from coming in. Anyway, those members missed their opportunity there. It is a shame I had to point that out for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe Government, of course, has encouraged our scientists, some of the best and brightest in the world, to go offshore. I think in particular of the research that was done in this country, and I mentioned one of the participants in that research. That research has now had to go offshore, where I suspect it will produce some very good results. Unfortunately, those results will not be in the name of New Zealanders or in this country. It is a shame that that fear is there. Science in this country is very important, it is important for us for the future, and the discouragement must be truly frustrating for our scientists. I think that those in the science and research fields must be frequently frustrated, but particularly so in this field when knowledge stems from this country. We have very good science departments in our universities, but they have barriers put in their way all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESo ACT New Zealand, as members will have noted by now, opposes the progress of this bill, and we will continue to do so in the Committee stage and third reading. We think we should be having a proper debate, not a quasi-debate or Clayton\u2019s debate about whether the moratorium should be extended. As I pointed out before, this is not a debate about xenotransplantation; it is a debate about political expediency. Other members are not willing to have the debate so close to an election; they want to wait till after the election, when they think things will not be noticed in the same way and further legislation can be drawn up. I suspect that the legislation has already been drawn up. It is just being delayed, for the benefit of the Government with the election campaign coming up. Last time we had \u201Ccorngate\u201D, of course. The Prime Minister does not want to have to go around the country to debate xenotransplantation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EACT will be opposing this bill. We believe firmly in science, in progress, and in research. We oppose vehemently the delaying of science and the delaying of the ability of our scientists to do good-quality research in this country. This bill denies them the opportunities that they should have in New Zealand. It is about our skilled, our best and our brightest, being sent offshore yet again. ACT New Zealand opposes the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00220203d79de6c1438dbe95b133b8bc5481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220203d79de6c1438dbe95b133b8bc5481\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the Medicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill. Despite all the rhetoric that we have heard, this bill is, essentially, just a date change. It is an extension of the moratorium so that legislation can be more thoughtfully developed in order, hopefully, that xenotransplantation can be covered by the new human tissue legislation that is being worked on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EArguably, the legislation surrounding xenotransplantation will be one of the more important pieces of legislation to come before this House, so it is crucial that we get it right and do not rush into it. We are extremely pleased that the Government is spending more time on it and that we are extending the moratorium, so that we can be absolutely certain that the legislation will not be rushed legislation that needs to be changed. Hopefully, we will get it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe have heard some extraordinary comments in this debate today, which shows that some members have taken the issue of xenotransplantation extraordinarily lightly. But the truth is that, despite all the attempts made by the bill\u2019s opponents to dismiss the concerns about xenotransplantation, it is an issue with profound ethical and safety considerations. It involves crossing the species barrier between humans and animals\u2014a species barrier that has existed for millennia. Therefore, whatever the opponents say, that raises the possibility of the transfer of disease between species. As Barbara Stewart from New Zealand First has already pointed out, it raises the possibility of the development of crossover diseases from, for example, pigs to humans, and of the development of new infectious, and possibly deadly, viruses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThere is no point in trying to dismiss those possibilities. There is experimental evidence that shows, despite what opponents say, that pig viruses have survived for long periods of time inside humans. Furthermore, as the paper from the Ministry of Health points out, there is the possibility that new infectious organisms that are not currently known will emerge and infect humans. The Ministry of Health points out that those emerging viruses would pose a particular problem because they would be difficult to identify. So there may not be effective therapies against them if they were to develop and had various routes of transmission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe ministry points out that the porcine endogenous retrovirus is present in the DNA contained in the nucleus of all pig cells. Its transmission from pig cells has been recorded in the laboratory, and that poses a very credible risk to public health. There was no mention made by the speakers from ACT and National about the bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) crisis. Barbara Stewart mentioned various others like HIV, etc., but how about the BSE crisis, when an animal disease crossed over to humans? At the time, most scientists dismissed the idea, when it was pointed out, that there was a possibility of transferring that infection from animals to humans. It was utterly dismissed by scientists who, as Katherine Rich said, did not want to hold back the great scientific tide. They dismissed the possibility airily. They said that there was a purely theoretical risk that the disease could cross the species barrier and transfer to humans, and that it was certainly not something that should be seriously contemplated. In that case, the scientists certainly got it wrong. They denied the risks and we ended up with BSE\u2014mad cow disease\u2014which had a huge, huge cost to the British Government and to human health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe reality is that there is huge scientific uncertainty surrounding xenotransplantation. For example, if we did put pig organs into humans to try to solve the problem of diabetes, which Katherine Rich has talked about, and if we got it wrong and it resulted in the emergence of a new retrovirus, it would be\u2014not to put too fine a word on it\u2014a disaster for humanity. It certainly could open a Pandora\u2019s box. We are in the middle of a bird flu epidemic, and we have heard the dire warnings of what could happen if the disease continues to transfer to humans\u2014it already has\u2014and to mutate. We could be in the midst of a huge epidemic. We have been told that by experts, yet speakers in this debate airily want to dismiss those possibilities. They suggest that this bill is simply trying to hold back the scientific tide by providing for proper consideration and regulatory controls surrounding xenotransplantation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI was also rather alarmed by some of the remarks made by Katherine Rich. She pointed out, quite correctly, that we are in the midst of a diabetes epidemic. We in the Health Committee have been hearing that there is such an increase in people needing dialysis machines that there are shortages around the country. There is no doubt about that and, at a cost of about $50,000-odd per year to treat someone on dialysis, New Zealand faces a huge problem. But her answer to that huge crisis seemed to be that we must all now get pig organs\u2014set aside our concerns and set up, I presume, huge pig factories around New Zealand to grow pig organs so that we can all use them for problems such as failing organs, as in the case of advanced diabetes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut hang on a minute! Why would we not look first at human donor organs? New Zealand has one of the lowest rates of organ donation in the world, and we are doing virtually nothing serious to increase it. There is a huge amount that we could and should be doing. Indeed, the Health Committee has recommended strongly that the Government take far more action in developing a register and doing everything it can to increase the rate of human organ donation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut there is another issue. Yes, we have an epidemic of diabetes\u2014an estimated 120,000-odd people with diabetes and the same number, it is said, with undiagnosed diabetes. But instead of looking at xenotransplantation and pig organs, why do we not look at the causes of diabetes and take some simple steps\u2014we could take them right now; they are under our noses\u2014to prevent the epidemic of diabetes in the first instance? We are told that 90 percent or more of cases of diabetes are type 2 diabetes caused by\u2014guess what\u2014diet and inactivity. So why do we not take simple steps? Why is the National Party not suggesting simple steps like getting rid of the high-sugar fizzy drinks sold in vending machines in almost every secondary school in our land? A high-fat diet is another cause. Why are we allowing virtually all the schools in New Zealand to sell high-fat diets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe have just done a survey of 50 schools, in which we found that in virtually all of them the staple diet sold in tuck-shops is pies, doughnuts, chips, hot dogs, and sausage rolls. A simple thing we could do tomorrow to deal with the causes of diabetes is to improve our children\u2019s diet\u2014to reduce the amount of fat and sugar they are being exposed to, which we know is the cause of diabetes. Why do we seem incapable of taking simple little steps such as getting rid of the vending machines in our schools and asking the food industry to reduce the amount of high-fat, high-sugar rubbish it is selling as food to our children, whom it is targeting with manipulative techniques? Why are we not prepared to do something simple like that? Instead, according to the National Party, the solution to diabetes is in putting pig organs into humans\u2014embracing xenotransplantation, despite all of its huge known risks. Let us not, according to the National Party, do something simple like improve the food our children are eating and deal with the causes of diabetes; let us just get into high-tech solutions and set up pig factories all around New Zealand so that we can start putting pig organs into humans! How tragic, how short-sighted, and how lacking in vision!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00228e8dd1fba208437eb0e36c0e6c614ca9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e8dd1fba208437eb0e36c0e6c614ca9\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It has been rather interesting to hear the debate today, because we are talking about a bill that has three clauses. In fact, it has only one clause of significance\u2014the third clause\u2014because the first is the title clause and the second is the commencement clause. The third clause covers the extension until 31 December next year of the expiry date of the moratorium relating to the controls on xenotransplantation procedures\u2014which is what this bill is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future believes that scientific development is great. However, it needs to occur within an ethical framework. Ethics do not apply just to medical procedures; they also have to apply to the research processes that enable us to get there. This is not a controversial piece of legislation, despite what ACT and National tell the House. In fact, we are asking for something that we as members of Parliament ask for all the time: an extension on a date. In select committee work we regularly ask to extend the period in which we can consider important issues. We may want to get in additional experts. We may want to retalk to submitters or call for further submissions. There are all sorts of reasons why we may feel that the time frame we have been given is not quite sufficient to do the job properly, and we then apply for and get an extension from the House. That is exactly what this bill is about. It is an application to this House for an extension, because those working at the coalface of this issue want more time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe Bioethics Council is well on task with the work it is doing. I am registered with the Bioethics Council. It sends me data on issues as they come up so that I have the opportunity to submit on an issue if I am interested. I have in my possession a letter from the Bioethics Council that I received on 3 March, inviting me, should I be interested, to make a submission on this all-important area. The letter outlines 16 rounds of meetings\u2014eight rounds of two meetings each\u2014available to people who want to be part of the discussion at a community level on xenotransplantation. The last date on which one could participate in the second round of the last meeting was Wednesday, 4 May, in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich claimed that groups that wanted to have input did not have time to get their acts together and to participate in those discussions. I cannot see how that was the case, as I received the letter on 3 March, which must have been about the same time everybody else who was interested in this issue received it. The time frame they had was right through to 4 May, which seems to me like plenty of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI was also interested to hear ACT member Heather Roy kind of accusing those of us who support this extension of being party to fearmongering on this issue. Since when did caution turn into fearmongering? I think that caution on these matters is extremely important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI want to support two members who have taken a call today. One is Dianne Yates, who\u2014I suspect, like no other member of this House\u2014has devoted a huge amount of her time as a member of Parliament to issues of a bioethics nature. She has even travelled to Britain in respect of issues that she has been deeply concerned about. She has sponsored a member\u2019s bill on this matter. Possibly Dr Paul Hutchison may come a close second. It was very interesting to hear Dianne Yates\u2019 speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI also commend Barbara Stewart from New Zealand First, who gave a very well-researched speech, who has really thought carefully about the issue, and who sees that it is just a common-sense thing to extend this moratorium a bit longer. In fact, the explanatory note states that the date that has been given, 31 December 2006, can be extended by Order in Council if necessary. There is huge expectation that it may not have to go as far as 31 December 2006, because work is well on track in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe other issue that comes up is about whether we trust scientists, and whether by voting for this bill we are demonstrating some lack of trust in our scientific community. The truth is that ethical scientists do not want to work in some sort of unbridled environment. They also know that it is quite possible for their work to run ahead of ethical considerations. They understand and appreciate that the work done by organisations like the Bioethics Council\u2014and even by members of Parliament on this matter\u2014is work that is well done, and that, at the end of the day, actually supports the progress of science. We must remember that it is not just what we achieve in medical science that is important, but that it is also important to consider the means by which we get there. The means must be as ethical as the ends. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI have a particular interest in this issue because I am at high risk of getting diabetes. There has been a lot of mention this afternoon that one of the wonder breakthroughs we are expecting, should xenotransplantation be allowed to go ahead, is in the area of diabetes. My grandfather was an insulin-dependent diabetic, my mother is now an insulin-dependent diabetic, and there are certainly signs in my life that if I do not manage my diet and do all sorts of other things, then I am headed in that direction, too. So I ask myself, considering the fact that diabetes is a high risk for me, whether I want unbridled scientific endeavour to rush ahead, supposedly on my behalf, and come up with some fairly interesting solutions to my problem\u2014including the implantation of pig matter into my body\u2014without testing them out. Let me tell members that although it is appalling to have to see my mother inject herself on a twice-daily basis, I would rather, if that were the outcome for my life, end up doing that than be subject to some untried, poorly-thought-through medical procedure that may do me a lot more harm than good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESo United Future is very supportive of this extension. That is all it is. We congratulate members of the medical and scientific communities who work on this issue. We congratulate members of the bioethics community, who are continuing to tease out all the issues around this. We are very happy to support this second reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc0c2d82f5444ed287727c542bdac037\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc0c2d82f5444ed287727c542bdac037\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call in opposition to the Medicines (Specified Biotechnical Procedures) Amendment Bill. I do so on a range of grounds. The first one, which I think is the most important, is that this legislation is not entirely related to xenotransplantation. This bill provides for a moratorium on a range of other scientific experiments. The second point, which has been put forward by a number of submitters to this debate so far, is that xenotransplantation is relatively new and that it therefore needs to go through more rigorous science before it can be deemed safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI have in front of me a bit of information that suggests that the first xenotransplantation took place in 1682, when part of a dog\u2019s skull was transplanted into a Russian nobleman who had a fractured skull. It seems to me that this technology is not as new as some would have us believe. The reason it has not become a popular and regular event is, as some have submitted, because the human body generally rejects the transplantation and the person suffers because of the rejection. The body\u2019s own immune system rejects the foreign matter that has been transplanted, and that causes either death or some other kind of repercussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere is a huge amount of scientific evidence, going back over a long period of time, that suggests that these procedures could be safe in some instances\u2014that experimentation has already taken place. I know, as will a number of other people in this House, many people who have kidney problems and are on dialysis. They have to go for dialysis sometimes daily, and it has a horrendous effect on their standard of living and general well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EOne person in particular said to me that he would love to be able to allow himself to go forward potentially as\u2014I will not use the words \u201Cguinea pig\u201D, because we are talking about pig transplantation\u2014somebody who could demonstrate to the wider world that this process has been tested on many occasions. In his view, based on all the medical advice he has been given, it would be a safe procedure that would give him an extended life and make his standard of living so much better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo why should we stand in Parliament today and debate legislation that extends a moratorium on his individual right to make that choice? Why should we do that? On what grounds? We do not have the science to back up the argument to extend the moratorium. It is just not there. There is no conclusive science that states that the procedure is unsafe and that we should not allow it to happen. Why should we do that? We do not have science that suggests that if it were to happen, there would be some kind of horrendous repercussion, such as the interspecies transplant of some disease. There is no science to back that up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EUntil we allow some of this procedure to take place\u2014and I am not talking just about xenotransplantation, there are others types of science that I think are being held back by the sort of Luddite approach that we have in this country\u2014scientists will look at something that is a little bit off the wall, and say: \u201CNo, the regulatory framework that we have in New Zealand at the moment around this kind of stuff is so tough that we won\u2019t bother going down the road of applying for funds or carrying out the science experimentation, whether it be with animals or humans, with the intent of advancing medical science.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI need to remind the House that this is a biological nation. In this country we depend, by and large, on our agricultural exports. It is on the back of science that we have been able to develop one of the most efficient industries in the world in our agricultural exports. So why do we seem to have now got to the stage where we are very cautious, and introduce a legislative framework that goes beyond what most credible scientists would suggest is necessary, particularly in this instance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI put this forward to the House, and I ask Government members: \u201CWhy do you need to have another extension?\u201D. They had a piece of legislation passed some time ago that introduced the moratorium. The suggestion at that stage, by most who were involved in that debate, was that at the end of that period there would be enough evidence to suggest that we would then be able to move on. Yet we are now here again today passing, or about to pass, I suspect, based on those who have spoken, legislation that will extend that moratorium out again, and it is based on no science that I can find. So unless someone can take a call and prove that what I have said is wrong, that is where I stand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe first successful organ xenotransplants were carried out in 1963. So I stress the point that this is not new. The reason it has not become more widespread, as I said before, is because of the difficulty that the medical fraternity has had in trying to find a way to stop the human body from rejecting the transplanted material, whether it be a kidney, a heart, a liver, or whatever it might be\u2014and on this paper there are a number of other suggestions of potential organs, but the kidney transplant is, of course, the one that is most spoken of at the moment in regard to xenotransplantation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ECan I also refer to some of the debate that has gone on about the contrast between New Zealand\u2019s criteria, or regulation, around this, and what happens in Australia. Some have suggested that Australians have taken a very cautious approach to this, and that at this stage they are not allowing the kind of development that may take place here, if it is allowed to, to go ahead. Well, there is an interesting counter-argument to that, and it is this. Most of the scientists who have exited New Zealand in recent times, including those who were involved in the development of xenotransplantation, have gone to Australia. Now one has to ask the question: if Australia\u2019s regulatory framework is as tough as has been suggested here today, why would one go there? What possible gain could there be? If New Zealand\u2019s approach to science is as open as Australia\u2019s, why would one go from New Zealand to Australia if one were a scientist? Yet the evidence is overwhelming that that is what scientists have done. So that is a question that is unanswered for me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI can see some Ministers over there now. It is great to see the Minister of Police, and I am sure he will be knowledgable on this. I look forward to him taking a call to explain to me why we have had a mass exodus of our best scientists in recent times to Australia, when it has been asserted in the House here today that the Australian regulations are the same as ours and that that is the reason why we should not allow this experimentation to take place at this point in time. I am sure a Minister will answer that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe other area I want to touch on is the fact that a large number of people in this country, for whatever reason, whether it be cultural, religious, or whatever, will not be involved in xenotransplantation, and that is their choice. But why should those who wish to, not be involved in this transplantation? I refer back to my farming leader colleague from Taranaki\u2014and I will not use his name because I have not asked him whether I can\u2014who is desperately needing a kidney transplant at this point in time. He cannot find a suitable donor and is in a serious, potentially life-threatening state of health. Why is he not allowed to be involved\u2014because he wants to be\u2014in what could be ground-breaking science that could solve his problem? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask members of the House, particularly Ministers who are involved in the various regulatory areas, to find out the percentage of New Zealanders who put on their driving licence that they would be willing to become a donor in the case of a serious accident. They will find that the source of potential donors over the last 10 years, for a range of reasons, has declined. So what will we do? We know that we can extend people\u2019s lives, and certainly improve their quality of life by transplantation, but we also know that the potential source of donors is drying up. What will we do about that? Extending a moratorium on something that may be potentially the answer to that problem, in my view makes no sense at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa7df0d342584ccda54fa08f8867aa5b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 83\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a3242a372cb4420b510ce99d4df4b75\u0022\u003EPrisoners\u0027 and Victims\u0027 Claims Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002207fe5ad317a84fb29ef436e4c97882ee\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022db651cd2c3ba40148a1bfe90cf2f4e02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db651cd2c3ba40148a1bfe90cf2f4e02\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Prisoners\u0027 and Victims\u0027 Claims Bill be now read a second time. This bill is motivated by the Government\u2019s belief that offenders should not enjoy financial compensation for wrongful treatment without first having to address the harm caused to their victims. This bill aims to ensure that prisoners can be awarded monetary compensation only in exceptional cases, where it is the only effective remedy and where the person has first made use of other avenues of complaint. Secondly, it seeks to ensure that if an offender does receive compensation, victims will be able to claim their own redress from that sum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces guidelines to restrict the circumstances in which compensation can be awarded. After the bill is enacted, if a person in the corrections system claims compensation for a breach of his or her rights under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, the Human Rights Act, and the Privacy Act, compensation will not be available unless the person can show to the satisfaction of the court that he or she has made reasonable use of available complaints mechanisms and has failed to obtain effective redress, and that no other remedy, or combination of remedies, would provide effective redress. In considering whether to award compensation, the court or tribunal will also be required to consider a range of factors, including steps taken by the prisoner to mitigate the harm, steps taken by the State to remedy the breach, whether the breach was deliberate or in bad faith, the consequences of the breach, and the importance of the right that has been breached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn the exceptional situation where compensation is paid, the bill introduces a new mechanism that will assist victims of the offender to have first claim against it. The bill does that by establishing a trust account and a special victims\u2019 claims procedure. Where compensation is required to be paid by the Crown to a prisoner, either in the form of public law damages or as the result of a claim in tort, that compensation will be paid to the Secretary for Justice. After deducting relevant legal aid charges and any unpaid reparation, the Secretary for Justice will place the money in a bank account to be held in trust, so that the victims can claim against it. The Secretary for Justice will take reasonable steps to identify and notify victims. Victims will be sent an application form and will have 6 months to file a claim in writing. To assist them financially, victims and offenders will be exempt from the usual financial eligibility rules for legal aid, up to a capped amount. The parties will also be relieved from normal filing and hearing fees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EClaims will be determined by a District Court judge sitting as a special claims tribunal and will usually be determined on the papers, unless there are exceptional reasons to justify a hearing. Victims will not have to re-prove the details of the offender\u2019s crime. The tribunal will be able to rely on findings of fact in the criminal case that led to the offender\u2019s conviction. The tribunal will determine claims and make any orders based on the general law of damages. The Secretary for Justice will then pay money out of the trust to victims, according to the tribunal\u2019s order. Where there are multiple victims and insufficient funds to meet all the victims\u2019 awards, the available money will be paid on a proportional basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EVictims have always had the right to take civil claims against offenders for the harm or loss they have suffered. However, they rarely do. In part, that is because they are at a particular disadvantage: by the time the offender is released from prison, the 6-year limitation period has often expired. The bill will address that by providing that for civil claims by victims against offenders, the 6-year limitation period will be suspended whenever the offender is in prison. The new limitation provisions will benefit all victims of offences, whether the offence occurred before or after the legislation takes effect, irrespective of whether the offender had sought compensation, and even if the victim\u2019s actions would previously have been statute barred under the Limitation Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESome submitters argued that offenders should never be entitled to compensation for breaches of human rights. I understand their sentiments. However, a blanket removal of compensation would breach fundamental international obligations that successive Governments have committed themselves to. No country with which we would like to compare ourselves, including Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, or the United States of America, denies the right of compensation in all circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESome submitters on the bill expressed concern about the adequacy of prisoner complaints mechanisms. The bill will restrict the availability of a monetary remedy. However, it does not restrict the ability of offenders to make complaints about their treatment. The existence of a monetary remedy is not the only reason that prisoners complain. Prisoners complain because they want their complaint to be investigated and addressed. That is clear from the number of complaints to the Office of the Ombudsmen, in spite of the fact that the ombudsmen have no power to award damages. Every effort should be made to ensure that rules regarding minimum standards in prison are not breached in the first place, so that no grounds exist to bring claims for damages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E In October last year the Government directed Ministry of Justice officials to lead a review into the effectiveness of existing inmate complaints mechanisms. The findings confirm that although the system does identify most breaches, deficiencies remain that need to be addressed. The internal complaints process is still being underutilised, and the Department of Corrections could be more responsive to the Office of the Ombudsmen. Several steps are being taken to address that. The new corrections legislation and regulations that come into force on 1 June will strengthen the complaints procedures. The new chief executive of the department is committed to making a change in culture and ensuring greater responsiveness by his department to the ombudsmen. The Office of the Ombudsmen is also undertaking an investigation into prisoner complaints processes. Its report, which is due in December, could also lead to improvements in how the department and the Office of the Ombudsmen work together. However, should those changes not achieve an outcome whereby the system can be relied on to prevent, or to quickly address, any serious breaches, consideration will be given to a new independent prison complaints body. I have directed justice officials to do preliminary work on how such a body could operate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESome submitters also spoke of the need for the Government to do more to assist the victims of crime. The accident compensation scheme provides support to victims of crime and to those who lose a family member as a result of a crime. In 2004, for example, the Accident Compensation Corporation provided a total of $45.117 million to victims of crime, including sensitive claims. The Government is committed to ensuring that the victims of crime receive the assistance they need to rebuild their lives. I welcome the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s recommendation that there should be an inquiry into whether support and assistance for the families of homicide victims could be further improved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn concluding, I thank those people who presented submissions to the select committee, some of whom told very personal stories about the terrible effect that crime has had on their family. This bill, and the steps being taken to strengthen the complaints processes, will reduce the likelihood of compensation being paid to offenders, and ensure that where compensation is paid, victims will have a better opportunity to seek compensation for the unrecompensed harm done to them. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00223e8dca00775a49e1a887bc221c9681fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e8dca00775a49e1a887bc221c9681fa\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I did not take this point of order at the start of the delivery of the Minister\u2019s speech, as I did not want to interrupt his speech. An issue has arisen with respect to the report back that I have raised with one other bill in this House and I will ask you for a considered ruling on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EStanding Order 244 refers to minority views, and states: \u201CA select committee may, in its report, indicate the differing views of its members.\u201D This is further borne out in Speaker\u2019s rulings 81/3 and 81/4, which refer to minority or differing views of members. Speaker\u2019s ruling 81/3 states: \u201C\u2026 These differing views,\u201D referring to those in the minority report. A further context is provided for my point of order in Speaker\u2019s ruling 81(4), which relates further to minority views as being \u201Cdiverging views\u201D, both in the first line and the last line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe point of that contextual background is that the commentary on the bill on page 2, just prior to the heading \u201CInternational obligations\u201D, quite clearly states: \u201CIn this commentary, \u2018most of us\u2019 refers to Labour and United Future members.\u201D That being the case, we can assume that United Future has indicated that it is part of the majority in the report back, indicating that \u201Cmost of us\u201D refers, naturally enough, to the Government\u2014to Labour\u2014but also to United Future. Then extraordinarily we have a minority report from United Future contained in the same commentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Standing Orders and Speaker\u2019s rulings make quite clear, in the context I have outlined, that minority views relate to differing, or diverging, views from those of the majority, whereas the commentary indicates that United Future considers itself, by definition, in fact\u2014not by implication, but by express definition\u2014to be part of the majority, by including itself in the commentary under the quote \u201Cmost of us\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, when it comes to reporting back, political parties do not get to have a buck each way. The Standing Orders and Speaker\u2019s rulings make very clear that minority reports refer to diverging or different views. In this case the Justice and Electoral Committee has, through its commentary, indicated that United Future sits with most of us in this report. It sits with the majority. At the same time it is trying to have a dollar the other way, by indicating a minority report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI have raised this issue before. In that case, there was no specific reference in the report back to who was included in the majority. I was rightly told to sit down and get over it. In this case there is a specific reference to the fact that United Future considers itself to be in the majority. The context I have provided from the Standing Orders and Speaker\u2019s rulings indicate that this is inappropriate, and I would seek a considered ruling from you on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022132a31414531434e84847dc980e445cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132a31414531434e84847dc980e445cb\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The whip for the National Party, Mr Power, raises a point that might show the evolution of practice. We are inclined toward giving the public a much clearer idea of the reasoning for the way in which members of a committee have approached issues, without recognising that the Standing Orders in this respect started pre-MMP, when possibly the discipline between the two parties was a lot more robust. But the commentary we have here is probably a proper reflection of what happened in the Justice and Electoral Committee, and I speak as a member of it. I was not sure whether the whip asking for the ruling was asking that the report be removed, or the terminology be changed, or was saying that the report itself is invalid. I would be reluctant to see any ruling that prevented this kind of report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIn a sense, the situation is self-evident. United Future members were wanting to have a bob each way. They were unhappy about the bill but were still voting for it, and they wanted to record their unhappiness even though they were voting for it. My view is that it is appropriate for members of the House to see that, and it is appropriate for the public, researchers, and others in the future to understand it. I think they will be baffled, because the committee has adopted some constraints. There is a voluntary constraint, in the sense that a minority view should be confined to a reasonable length, which we have said is a page.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EBut I hope that if the Speaker does agree to give a ruling on this, the ruling tries to accommodate this situation. I think the remedy is here. I think it is absolutely farcical for a party to trash a bill completely, then vote for it, but I think that the House can read what United Future is doing, and that members can make up their own minds, without our bringing down a rule that says it cannot do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022246a762061b941498e84a61f862e1a13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022246a762061b941498e84a61f862e1a13\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Interesting points have been raised. This is not the first example of parties doing this in minority reports. Madam Deputy Speaker, the senior Opposition whip has asked for your considered ruling, and that is appropriate, but I do not think we need to get into a round robin submission process on that. You can undertake whether you want to give us a ruling on that, and we can be guided by your view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u002281779ae173674d529697612ce97b0bb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281779ae173674d529697612ce97b0bb1\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I do not intend to waste the House\u2019s time, but as a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee I do feel I have something to add, and it is a slightly different point. It is clear that minority reports are an extremely important part of select committee commentaries. They provide an alternative view to the majority view, and it seems to me to be quite justified that a party supporting a bill may well have a valid reason for putting forward a minority view on specific issues in the bill that they disagree with or would seek to have amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EHowever, I agree with Mr Power that it is not appropriate for a party that supports a bill to put in a minority report stating it does not really agree with it, but will vote for it anyway. If that party were to mention specific points it was seeking to amend, I would think that that was quite a different matter, and that we should allow for that, but I think Mr Power has a very good point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa4a2a9ed2d04347a759905c5718d7bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa4a2a9ed2d04347a759905c5718d7bf\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I genuinely thank members for their contributions. In no way in an MMP environment would I like to see parties curtailed from expressing views that are different from those of the majority on any committee. But there is a slightly different issue at stake here from the one raised by my colleague Mr Tanczos. I agree with his analysis, but the problem is that in this case the United Future party specifically identified itself in the commentary on the bill as being part of the majority but then went on to give a minority report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI think that at a philosophical level Mr Franks is dead right. It may well be that there is a hold-over from a first-past-the-post environment when it comes to minority reports, and I for one would hate to see that right curtailed, which is why, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have asked you for a considered ruling. But, specifically, I think that, in light of my comments about the contextual argument contained in the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 Rulings that minority views are diverging or different views, United Future is not allowed to have a bob each way by saying it will vote with the majority but will also have a minority report. Therein lies the dilemma for yourself, Madam Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022f63cffc53be24096b525f29518f1a150\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f63cffc53be24096b525f29518f1a150\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I have just a couple of points. The member keeps using the term \u201Cminority report\u201D, when actually the expression is a \u201Cminority view\u201D right through the report, and that is an important point. I also make the point that Standing Order 244 certainly provides for committees to include differing views in their reports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270b3959dbe9e49b8ab969d629befe49a\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Diverging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed64af4be504050a894e4c5b42fa0de\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, differing or diverging\u2014it is the same thing. Certainly, Speaker Hunt in his ruling did say \u201Cdiverging views\u201D but it can be \u201Cdiffering views\u201D, too. While it may seem unusual in this instance for a party that is assumedly part of the majority to have a differing view, it is not impossible. I think Stephen Franks was probably making some of that point, too. It is a matter for the committee to decide whether the view is a differing view and whether it should be included in the report. In the end, the matter is for the committee. I am very happy to discuss it with the Speaker, but I just make those points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00225a33ef47d5cb47c28ccf38a30f08efcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a33ef47d5cb47c28ccf38a30f08efcd\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate your ruling, and I would appreciate your raising the matter directly with the Speaker. Although it was a matter for the committee at the time the report was done, it is now a matter for the House to decide whether the course of action followed by the Justice and Electoral Committee was appropriate, and that is the issue I raise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00225795fb007d904896855c2cd1dd0e002b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225795fb007d904896855c2cd1dd0e002b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is a matter for debate, but I thank the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220b089965d15242dd96da66665abd7cb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b089965d15242dd96da66665abd7cb2\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition is opposed to the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Bill. We believe that payments to prisoners should be blocked, stopped, and wiped out. We do not believe that New Zealand should be constrained by the figment of what the United Nations may or may not state in various conventions. We believe that the people of New Zealand have a right to express their view, and the view of the people of New Zealand is that there should be no payments whatsoever. The Justice and Electoral Committee reports at some length about the victims who appeared before it and expressed their views on the priorities that there should be. The select committee clearly stated that the overwhelming majority of victims who appeared before it wanted to deprive the criminals of the money rather than to enrich themselves as victims. The victims did not want the money and did not want the crooks to get it, either. We think that the Government has failed completely to address any of the concerns of victims and of the wider community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ELet me make it absolutely clear what this bill does. Even though Mr Goff may stand up and say he is stopping prisoners keeping the cash, this bill allows inmates to keep some or all of the cash. It does nothing to stop them getting the loot. It does nothing to stop them receiving taxpayers\u2019 money for all the range of imagined harms that they may have experienced while they were behind bars, serving their punishment for offending against the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EHow can it be that this bill allows inmates to keep some, if not all, of the cash that may be awarded to them in a compensation claim? National\u2019s view in its minority report on the bill, written by Dr Richard Worth, makes quite clear the number of areas where prisoners can keep the money. The first area is when the victims are deceased\u2014if the victims are deceased, the prisoner can keep the money. What happens if the victims are not readily identifiable? The National Party has used the example of many of the most vile inmates in our country\u2019s prisons: the drug dealers. Those people have sold drugs, whether it be through a middleman or directly themselves. But how can we identify their victims and who are eligible to make a claim? We cannot. So if a drug dealer gets a $300,000 or $400,000 payout from the Labour Government, there are no readily identifiable victims to make a claim, and the criminal gets to keep the cash. We think that is a failure of this bill and a failure of the Government\u2019s policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party makes the following point in its commentary on the bill, and I agree with it completely: what sort of bill pits one victim against another? What sort of Government pits one victim against another? This bill, if for some horrible reason it is passed into law, will require victims to plead their cases of relative harm in order to receive any compensation payment. We will expect some authority to measure the different levels of harm, anguish, and continuing suffering that various victims feel. That is all too heartless. This bill will allow prisoners to keep some, if not all, of the cash, and that is not what New Zealanders want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EOne of the arguments that the Government has used\u2014and the issue seems to have tied the United Future and Labour members of the select committee in knots\u2014is the undertakings that New Zealand has apparently given with regard to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Members will recall that when this bill was introduced, the Minister of Justice appeared on television and said that the United Nations convention requires that we pay the money, and that we do this and that. But as the National Party has pointed out, it is quite clear that New Zealand has a specific reservation in respect of the right to award compensation to such criminals under article 14 of the convention, and it is that compensation is payable only at the discretion of the Attorney-General. New Zealand has made it quite clear to all the international agencies that we will not follow their rules as we have our own rules, and that any payment will be made only at the discretion of the Attorney-General. So it would be very easy for the Government to pass a law, or indeed to adopt a policy, that it will not pay money to criminals for any alleged harm or otherwise that they may have suffered while in prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders were outraged that the Labour Government wrote a cheque for the hurt feelings of a vile individual who raped and killed a young woman as he stuffed pebbles down her throat. He received a cheque from the Government because of his hurt feelings. A man who raped and murdered a woman while shoving pebbles down her throat had a payout from the Government for hurt feelings. The Department of Corrections decided that it would just pay the money out and not even appeal the decision on a matter of principle. I say that no New Zealander would have criticised any authority that said it was so repugnant that such an individual should get a payout that it had to be stopped. It would have been, and it is, very easy to change the law to stop inmates receiving payouts. Let us be absolutely clear that this bill does not stop the payouts. It does not stop the worst criminals in New Zealand receiving a cheque from the taxpayers. It allows inmates to keep some, if not all, of any payment the Labour Government may choose to make. That is not what people want to occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI say to the House that it is not against the United Nations convention, or against any other law, for New Zealand to say \u201Cno payouts\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dead3a644be465d9bae2f0e18cbd31b\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec50246028ec46cfac4c5a9000d66040\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is not. We have expressly stated that we have our right to make a decision. It is expressly the view of the National Party that we should not allow any payments to prisoners whatsoever. If prison staff violate, beat, mistreat, or offend against prisoners and the law, we should charge them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277e3b7efd3a248a4bebb577cac82e208\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Charge them; convict them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225420ed164f2748bc9da6ac31d86ca24f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely\u2014just as, for example, if the Prime Minister committed art fraud, we should charge her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c2aebe27ba4a8ea0640aa6b3c71590\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: If she is speeding, going to a rugby match.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022389a2a66e0134130a7feb1f2ff115331\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: If she is speeding, we should charge her. Sorry, who is the police commissioner? If prison officers commit a crime, we should charge them. But we should not expect victims to pay taxes so that Phil Goff can write out a cheque in compensation for offenders\u2019 hurt feelings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis bill will not work. The Government will be humiliated if, when it pays out money to a criminal, there are no victims and no claims, so the criminal keeps the cash. It should take our advice and change this bill\u2014withdraw it. It is much simpler to block, stop, and wipe out the ability for the worst people in our community to receive payouts for what are claims based on figments of their imagination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1efc35a43314bd5bf5a186167c0fc1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1efc35a43314bd5bf5a186167c0fc1f\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to commend the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Bill to the House. I chaired the Justice and Electoral Committee, which dealt with the legislation. We went through a very interesting exercise as a committee in hearing submitters from both sides of the spectrum who had concerns about the legislation, and who proposed a number of other ways to deal with them. As a committee we went into a very detailed process of going through all the other ways in which the commonly desired outcome could be achieved. We came back to broadly what was in the bill, but at the same time we came up with two separate and quite crucial recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EI was interested to hear Mr Ryall deny the reality of 9 years of a National Government that was very careful to keep in line with the international obligations it had signed up to and abided by, and actually advocate that we breach international law. For the majority of the committee that was not an acceptable way forward, and I am very pleased that that position was taken by the committee. Given that constraint, and given that we needed to come up with a scheme that actually worked, we went through all the options and alternatives, and we came back to the model proposed in the legislation. In our view, it is the only one that is workable, applies to cases that are currently before the courts, and is within our international obligations. We also noted that the scheme contained in the bill may never be needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThere were two issues that would not go away. The first was that we have prison inmates in this nation who have been abused, that we run the risk of that continuing, and that we need a better prison complaints system. Our committee unanimously recommended the establishment of an independent prison complaints system, and that is detailed in our report. The second issue is that there is clearly a need to move further along the agenda of victims\u2019 rights. We heard about that very powerfully from victims who were brave enough to come before our committee, and we recommended an inquiry, which we intend to initiate ourselves as a committee, into the next stage of the development of victims\u2019 rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003ELastly, I note the conversation about the fact that a number of parties have put forward minority views. That quite accurately reflects the debate we had in the committee. United Future and Labour members, who made up the majority of the committee, ended up supporting the legislation to this stage. The United Future member had doubts, but recognised that, overall, this seemed to be an appropriate way forward. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022 data-id=\u0022b59d080dad5f428583dc44d246c58cd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b59d080dad5f428583dc44d246c58cd6\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to speak on the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Bill on behalf of my colleague Mr Dail Jones. The result of the Labour Government\u2019s legislation will be that scumbags, murderers, and vicious criminals on long-term sentences will harass and taunt prison officers purposely to such an extent that if there is even minor retaliation, they will be entitled to compensation. This bill will create a new industry, which will be called the \u201Ctaunt prison officers industry\u201D\u2014screw the screws; power is in prison. It sounds like one of those principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, and here it is again. It is another gravy train for the lawyers. New Zealand First will be voting against this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003ENo funds should be made available to criminals. They do the crime and they pay the time. I would say that most New Zealanders affiliate with that very, very easily. There should be no compensation. I quote from the section of the March 2005 Leader\u2019s Letter headed \u201CShould Prisoners be Entitled to Personally Receive Compensation?\u201D. It reads: \u201CDo you think criminals should be able to claim compensation for the way they have been treated in prison, and after making some payment to victims be allowed to keep the balance for themselves?\u201D. I am sure my United Future colleague over there, who is one of the very staunch law-and-order men in Parliament, will vote against this bill, but I do not think the other members of that party will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EI move on quietly. Mr Phil Goff, during the times I have spent with him overseas, walks the talk, but in this bill I cannot see that happening. That is the Labour Government\u2019s intention with the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Bill, which went before the Justice and Electoral Committee. The problem we face at the moment is that on 24 August 2004, the High Court awarded $130,000 in damages to five scumbags in Auckland prison, after finding that aspects of the Department of Corrections\u2019 behaviour management regime were unlawful. The decision is currently under appeal. Why the hell did they go to prison? Did they go in there for a soft ride? No, they did not. If the prison officer has to lay the law down, so be it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EI quote further from the Leader\u2019s Letter: \u201CNow, Sam Te Hei who murdered Colleen Burrows in a brutal cold blooded calculated killing in 1987 is seeking compensation for breach of human rights and would get to keep this money.\u201D What do the family and the wh\u0101nau who are the victims of that crime think of that one? I think Sam Te Hei is a disgusting disgrace to M\u0101oridom, quite frankly. The Leader\u2019s Letter stated: \u201CColleen Burrow\u2019s mother, Mrs Ida Hawkins, had this to say to the Parliamentary Select Committee: \u2018He was sentenced to life imprisonment, he should never get parole. He should never get any compensation. Te Hei is a criminal, prison is for punishment and life should mean Life in Prison.\u2019 \u201D There should not be any compensation. I wholeheartedly support Mrs Hawkins, and I want to make sure that people like Sam Te Hei do not profit as a result of murdering a New Zealand citizen and ending up in prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EAnother example is the murder of young Simon Reaney. I ask folks to think about how they would feel if it were their 7-year-old; how would they feel if that happened to one of their children? His murderer, Anthony Roma,\u2014we all know of him, because he was front-page news at the time\u2014was charged with the murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. There is also the case of William Bell, who was involved in the brutal murder at the Mount Wellington - Panmure RSA. He murdered one of our RSA members who fought for the rights of the people of this country, but who had to suffer being brutally murdered by yet another scumbag. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EWhat did William Bell do? He was already on parole for aggravated robbery, having had 102 previous convictions, mainly for violence. Should criminals like that be allowed to seek, and to keep, compensation? No, I go along with my colleague Mr Ryall. In no way should such people receive any compensation, and if any money is left over it should be put into a trust for victims, not for prisoners or the people who committed the crimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThose people have been abusive and have failed to recognise all the human rights that exist in our society today. Surely, there must be a limit to the way in which they can profit from being sent to prison. Mrs Ida Hawkins, mother of Colleen Burrows, said: \u201CNow he wants human rights!! Human rights are for human beings.\u201D Te Hei was a disgrace to M\u0101oridom. She said: \u201CTei Hei is not a human being.\u201D He was an absolute disgrace, folks. Members of Parliament, members of the public, and Kiwis of this country know he was a disgrace to M\u0101oridom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EIn some cases, there are no specified victims, such as in drug-dealing cases or in cases where criminals might murder all members of the family. So in those cases, prisoners would keep all the money. In other cases, a person might be imprisoned for theft from an employer, and that person should be certain only of a civilised form of treatment in prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EA view seems to be forming that although we do not want criminals to get anything if we can possibly be assured of that, nevertheless in a civilised society even criminals should be entitled to some form of civilised treatment. But if they do receive any compensation, then their victims should be the first to benefit. At the end of the day, it is a life sentence for the wh\u0101nau as well, and any balance should be paid to a trust for victims. The Sensible Sentencing Trust\u2019s submission was a long way along those lines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EI want to finish, after having spent time at the Justice and Electoral Committee, by thanking Tim Barnett for his fair approach to all members of the select committee. Ms Dalziel is not here; I do not know why. But I say that her expertise, and her longevity in this House, certainly showed out in the select committee. I apologise to Nandor Tanczos for not being there all the time, but that member sat beside me and I must say that his comments and input into the bill were worth listening to. I listened to Stephen Franks with his legal background, and also to Richard Worth with his English humour. I must say that he, our colleague from the National Party, with his English humour\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f298d7badb7042a382c5b85ea0a32ef7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The member is not getting an award.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3062a20a47f4fe1bf5e56019ee393fe\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. That is all right; it is not a problem. I want to finish by saying that the compensation that will be paid to those prisoners is, quite frankly, disgusting, disgraceful, and despicable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00223aeb918b5bce4edfa38044052030f4dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223aeb918b5bce4edfa38044052030f4dd\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise for the ACT party on this second reading of the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Bill. This is the reported-back version from the Justice and Electoral Committee of a bill that came into the House about 6 months too late, after a grave embarrassment for the Government as people came to realise just what was happening. The bill came in after Christopher Taunoa got the equivalent of $500 tax-free a week for what a judge had decided was abuse of his human rights when in prison. Others received payment, also. The $55,000 that Taunoa received was awarded because he had been kept on something called the behaviour management regime, which had been introduced into P\u0101remoremo prison\u2014after the authorities had just about lost control of that prison\u2014for the worst criminals New Zealand had. It had been introduced to say, essentially that there are sticks and carrots that apply even in prison\u2014that the prisoners have not taken control of that prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe judge heard claims from Taunoa that he had been treated cruelly, had had his human rights abused, and had suffered torture\u2014because, for example, he had not been given a clean rag to wipe out his cell, and the windows had been left open too long in winter when it was chilly, and not long enough in summer when it was hot. He complained that lights had been left on and it had been hard for him to sleep. Some of those complaints the judge decided did not amount to torture, but the judge decided that, overall, Mr Taunoa deserved compensation of $55,000, or more than $500 a week, because his human rights had been breached.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EOne of the things about sitting on the Justice and Electoral Committee was that it was actually very hard not to be caught unmanned\u2014not to be caught wiping away tears\u2014when some of the victims came before us and asked in their own very eloquent way: \u201CWhy are we having the insult of even hearing this, when these beasts have murdered and taken away forever any human rights of our relatives?\u201D. It is hard even to remember some of those presentations, because those people came to the committee absolutely incredulous that Parliament could even be troubling to think about doing this. They asked: \u201CHow can it be that the accident compensation scheme says we have no recourse, while these beasts are complaining about things like having only a dirty rag to wipe out their cells?\u201D. They could not believe that the committee members were solemnly listening to the Minister\u2019s officials addressing the committee on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have to say the committee was doing a diligent job on all sides. I understand why Edwin Perry handed out plaudits to the committee members, because I think the committee tried as hard as it could to overcome the ideological bent of a Government determined to push through a completely fraudulent bill. The committee tried to find ways around the advice, and the advice was really simple in the end: it does not matter what the people of New Zealand want, what the members of this House might want to do, or what most of the members of the committee feel would be just\u2014we cannot do it because there is no sovereignty left in this country. The august bodies in the United Nations, which Minister Goff wants to pontificate in front of and be applauded by, have said that it is not possible for New Zealand to abolish compensation to prisoners. We cannot do it, they have said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWell, I think that most of us probably wanted to say \u201CGet stuffed!\u201D. We certainly wanted to have a reasonable answer for Mr Tai Hobson, who came before us and said: \u201CBell didn\u2019t give my wife any conditions. Bell\u201D\u2014with 102 previous convictions, mainly for violence\u2014\u201Cdidn\u2019t give my wife any mercy. Why am I told that he is to be paid, when the courts just tossed my case out before I could even start it?\u201D. The court stated that he has no remedy, and we could not give him an answer. But the answer that is coming from Prime Minister Helen Clark\u2014who probably wants a career like the one Mary Robinson has at the United Nations, when she has finished stuffing this country up\u2014and from this Government is that it does not matter what New Zealanders want or feel. The international bureaucrats, and the torturers, the robbers, and the tyrants who put people on to the United Nations Human Rights Committee, have said that New Zealand cannot do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI believe that United Future deserves all the embarrassment and squirming that it is experiencing, because there is only one reason that the Government is getting this fraudulent bill through. It is that United Future has said it will vote for it. Yet the very true, eloquent minority report of United Future in the commentary states: \u201CWhilst the bill has not achieved its overall intention to prevent one more cent of taxpayer money from reaching the pocket of prison inmates, United Future accepts that in the absence of a willingness to put aside spurious UN resolutions, or a willingness to restrict all remedies to those of a non-cash basis, this bill does the next best thing.\u201D Then it does not tell us what the next best thing is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe bill does next to nothing. The bill is a piece of political flannel. The bill is being debated and rushed through now because the Minister thinks that New Zealanders are mug enough to forget, during the 3 months within which the Government will have to call an election, what this bill is doing. The Government wants this over now and next week, because it cannot actually face there being any interest in it. We have no media present. There is not a single journalist covering this debate, yet it was a major issue when the bill was introduced. In other words, I think the Government is correctly calculating that its tactic will work. This bill is spent news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI think of Tai Hobson. I think of a woman who called me from Hawke\u2019s Bay and said that she could not give evidence as her son was living overseas because he had had the cheek to give evidence against the people who had turned his head into a football. She named one of the defendants\u2014who was one of the Te Hei family that Edwin Perry mentioned\u2014who had turned her son\u2019s head into a football, put him out of work, and left him in hospital for a very long time. Those people rule in that area of Hawke\u2019s Bay. Her son could not afford to have his mother come here and do what she wanted to do, which was to tell Parliament what she thought of Te Hei qualifying for compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is not just Taunoa; there has been a string of them. We never received the details. The Hon Margaret Wilson did deals with those prisoners secretly, and the Government has never revealed to Parliament exactly what those sums were. But the Government did confirm the totals that had been spent. In September 2000 we heard that $538,000 had been paid out in secret payouts for so-called human rights abuses, including payments to Rah\u0113ke, Te Hei, Michael R\u0101tima, and John Gillies. The payouts were of between $40,000 and $90,000 each.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThey were made because this Government is not willing to take on the judges of this country, either. The judges invented this financial compensation right for so-called human rights abuse. They made it up. They made it up after Parliament had decided not to include a right to compensation in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. They made it up because they think there needs to be an effective remedy. If prison officers have abused their powers\u2014and I do not accept that it was torture or that it was serious\u2014what sort of remedy is it, and what respect or regard does it create for justice, to impose a payment against the Crown that is to go to completely undeserving recipients of a windfall, when the real fault lies, if it lies with anyone at all, with a few prison officers who should be subject to disciplinary procedures? This Government has utterly lost control of its workforce. Its employment law means that it probably cannot sack those officers until they have tortured three times\u2014if they ever tortured at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo we have to face these victims, and to apologise for a bill that is fraudulent in its intent\u2014because the Government knows that it is unlikely to take a cent from any of the people who receive these windfall compensation payments\u2014in favour of the Government being able to pretend that United Nations so-called human rights obligations are being met. ACT will vote against this bill, and we will do it with a sense of disgust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6d9c5cbd71141febc4753417089191a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6d9c5cbd71141febc4753417089191a\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to address the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Bill and to correct some of the misrepresentations that have been made of our position on the bill. Most obviously, for me, is the fact that if this bill goes through without amendment, it will be incompatible with the United Future policy on law and order, which is based on three principles: being tough on crime, being tough on the causes of crime, and\u2014to my mind, the most important principle\u2014placing victims first. This bill does not put victims first, so from my point of view it is utterly incompatible with that policy. However\u2014and this is the part I think has been misrepresented\u2014we will be supporting this bill through to the Committee stage, at which point we will be putting forward a number of Supplementary Order Papers. One of them, in particular, will be a bottom line for us. If it is not accepted, our support ends right there. That Supplementary Order Paper will, I believe, enshrine the victims-first approach. If, for whatever reason, that does not happen\u2014if, for whatever reason, United Future nevertheless decides to support the bill\u2014it will not be I who will deliver that vote. The House can count on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI turn to the substance of the bill. I do not want to lambaste the Minister of Justice for this bill, because I think that in many ways he has been put between a rock and a hard place. On one hand he has what I consider to be\u2014and many would agree with me\u2014spurious United Nations obligations. I understand that from the point of view of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, he has to uphold those principles. In a sense it is a pity that Phil Goff wears both hats and that they are in conflict with each other. In this particular instance, his role as Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade conflicts with his role as Minister of Justice. The idea that we must sign up to international obligations and that that somehow supersedes our Parliament is fundamentally flawed. At the end of the day, Parliament must be the arbiter. Parliament must be the point at which laws for New Zealand are decided upon, not the whim of the Government of the day in signing up to international accords without the proviso of giving Parliament the ability to debate and support whatever those obligations may be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI have also been accused, I believe, by the National member who spoke earlier of having allowed myself a bob either way, by taking a supportive view of the main body of the commentary on the bill and also stating a minority view. Let me just say clearly for the record that although I was the United Future member on the Justice and Electoral Committee for the purposes of this bill, I was not always at the meetings of that committee, simply because of my responsibilities in the other select committee of which I am a member. Had I been there, I would possibly not have included United Future support for the main body of the commentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EMembers will see that the United Future minority view outlines our major concerns. I have talked a little about the international obligations. On the issue of the compensation that needs to be provided for inmates there is no necessity, in my opinion\u2014and I think in others\u2019\u2014that the compensation be financial. It is quite clear that there is a purpose for compensation: to be a punishment or a penalty imposed on the Department of Corrections for doing the wrong thing. I have no problem with that. But that the money should somehow be a windfall for the inmate concerned is, I think, the part of the equation that nobody can accede to. When an inmate is brutalised, the Department of Corrections and the people responsible for that brutalisation must be brought to justice, and they must pay the full penalty. But there is no reason to reward the inmate over and above reasonable compensation, which is not necessarily financial compensation. If there is a broken leg, let us mend it. If there are hurt feelings, let us give the inmate counselling. But we should not give the inmate one cent of taxpayers\u2019 money, some of which comes from the victims of the crime he or she committed in order to find himself or herself there in the first place. I think that that is utterly wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThat applies to people like Taunoa, who received $55,000 for being subject to prison discipline. That man had slashed the throat of a person so badly that it exposed the victim\u2019s spine. He is a threat to other inmates and to the guards. Not to put him away would infringe the human rights of the guards and other inmates. The idea that taxpayers must now front up and pay $55,000 in compensation as a result of a decision arising from that inmate\u2019s own actions is an absolute affront to victims everywhere in this country. The point is that compensation need not be financial. That will be the sum of the Supplementary Order Paper that I will put forward in the Committee stage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe simple fact is that we have heard from a number of victims many times over that they did not necessarily want the offender to be put at risk in prison, but they did not want to have an ongoing legal relationship with the offender, either. Victims want to get on with their lives. The idea, simple though it sounds, that if an inmate does get compensation the victim can then go along a legislative path to take some or all of that money is actually repugnant to victims. They simply want to get on with their lives and heal from the crime that has been committed against them. I understand why the Minister of Justice is to allow the opportunity for victims to take legal action and claim the money. He, like everybody else, finds it repugnant that inmates should be rewarded for choosing to commit crimes, getting caught for them, and being put in prison. But this bill is clearly not the way to address that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EAt some point we have to say that the rights of victims and the obligations of the Government to victims and to law-abiding people in this country must supersede any international interest. That has to be absolutely rock-bottom. Compensation should not be seen, as this bill suggests, as a payment to the inmate but as a penalty against the correctional institution and the people who perpetrate the offences. As I said before, we will vote in favour of this legislation going forward to the Committee stage. Our obligation to support it goes only to that point. I will put forward a Supplementary Order Paper in the Committee stage, and our support thereafter will be conditional on it being agreed to. Otherwise, I will not be in this Chamber to give the vote for United Future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00225df73348b9834d4bb28342606c6ee4d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225df73348b9834d4bb28342606c6ee4d4\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I start by saying that I think all people\u2014certainly, all members of the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2014agree that the circumstances that gave rise to those compensation claims should not happen. I think all members of the select committee were moved by the position taken by the victims who appeared before it to speak on the bill. None of them took the view that inmates deserve whatever they get and that there should be no sanction for the abuse of prisoners when they are in the custody of the Department of Corrections. That is right, because, of course, that view would lead to the atrocities we see occurring in many prisons around the world. For that reason, the Greens very strongly support one recommendation of the select committee\u2014outlined in our commentary\u2014that the Government should begin some scoping work to investigate the setting up of an independent prison complaints authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EOf course, that is not a new idea\u2014it has been advocated for a very long time by organisations like the Howard League for Penal Reform. During the passage of the Corrections Bill there were some very strong submissions to the Law and Order Committee calling for an independent prison complaints authority. It is something that the Green Party has been outspoken on for quite a long time. I know that there has been some examination of it by the Government, and I commend that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIt is important that some of that work begins, although there have been changes in the way the Department of Corrections works. Amendments have been made to the Corrections Act, and the Greens were instrumental in adding some safeguards into that Act. The Department of Corrections has a new chief executive, and I think we all await with interest the effect that man will have on the culture within the prison service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EBut it is clear that the best protection against compensation claims is to stop these abuses happening in prisons. That is one of the few things that the Greens support in terms of the report back from the select committee. We do not support this bill. We believe that the only real way to get the Department of Corrections to clean up its act is to ensure that there is an effective remedy for inmates who are abused when they are in the custody of the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EReally, that is all that the international conventions are saying\u2014that there must be an effective remedy. When we are talking about the power of the State being brought to bear on people within its custody, there are very few real levers that can be used. There are very few ways of cleaning up a department that is as monolithic, closed-shop, and secretive as the Department of Corrections has shown itself to be. The Greens very strongly believe that we must maintain provision for an effective remedy. I know that some parties in this House are not interested in international conventions. They pay no regard to them\u2014at least when they are in Opposition, and at least verbally. Tim Barnett has pointed out the position of the National Party, which denounces international conventions when in Opposition, but, of course, when it is in Government it upholds them, because it knows that it is not just a question of rhetoric in the House; it is about the standing of this country, Aotearoa, in the eyes of the world and that is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EYet some parties have no interest in international obligations and assert that they should not be a constraining influence on the Government. That is not something the Green Party supports. In fact, I would call that the George W Bush view of international relations\u2014the idea that those international conventions and protections apply only to the people we like, and not to the people we do not like. That is the path to Guantanamo Bay; that is the path to Abu Ghraib. International conventions are an important measuring stick against which we as parliamentarians can evaluate the legislation we pass. In contradiction to what Marc Alexander said, it is our commitment to human rights conventions that is enduring, not the variable whims of the Government of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI will read some words from the submission made by Victim Support, because I think they sum up the Green Party position extremely well. I ask members to excuse me for reading from something that is available to them, but I know that they are too busy to read the submissions made to every select committee we have. I think that members listening to the debate will find these words particularly instructive. As I said, this is from the submission made by Victim Support: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E \u201CThat a prisoner should receive compensation for a breach of rights when the victim of that individual\u2019s original offending has had no such acknowledgment or received no redress for the harm they have suffered is repugnant to Victim Support and to what seems to be most of the New Zealand population. Such a blatant imbalance of rights would offend the sensibilities of even the most demure of persons, as reflected by the way in which it appears to have already raised the ire of most of the community at large\u2014a situation in which the mass media has undoubtedly added further fuel. Victim Support does not, however, accept that the remedy for the situation lies within the provisions contained in the Prisoners\u2019 and Victims\u2019 Claims Bill.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe submission further states: \u201CThe solution to the situation lies not in lessening the rights of victims of abuse of power to seek redress for harm done, but in strengthening the rights and abilities of victims of crime to access restitution or compensation for the harm done to them. Putting it simply, two wrongs don\u2019t make a right. As a society we should be more intent on preventing abuses of power from occurring than on mitigating against the obligation to provide compensation when it does. Any softening of our intolerance to abuse of power and corruption not only increases the vulnerability of individuals but diminishes the moral and social fabric of our society, which will ultimately result in more victims.\u201D I think that that is a very powerful message to the members of this House who say that we should just strip prisoners of all rights of redress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe submission goes on to state: \u201CVictim Support strongly recommends that a fund be established whereby offenders can access a loan from the State similar to that provided to students to enable them to pay immediately any reparation awarded to the victim. In this way any windfall received by the offender, be it through compensation for harm done while incarcerated, or through winning the lottery, could be legitimately claimed by Government as repayment of the debt owed. Such a scheme is inherently fairer to all victims and does not diminish the rights of any individual.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EAlthough I am not sure that that is exactly the answer, the select committee did actually spend a lot of time looking at how one could provide a scheme that genuinely addressed the harm suffered by victims, that did not provide restitution on the basis of whether the offender who harmed them had been abused while in custody and therefore got a payout, but that treated victims of crime equally according to the harm that was done to them. We spent quite a bit of time, and I was quite hopeful that we might come up with a solution that would allow the Greens to support a measure that would genuinely put the interests of victims first, without taking away the obligation and the necessity for a right of remedy for people who are abused while in the power of the State. I think it is unfortunate that we were not able to do that; it is outside the scope of this bill, and it would take an enormous amount of policy work. So we accept that it cannot be done as part of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe think it is a shame that that was not the approach taken by the Government. We think that would have been a lot better. I think the select committee is very concerned to do some further work on how we can genuinely advance the role of victims within the criminal justice system. Of course, it is the view of the Green Party that as long as we retain an adversarial system of justice, the rights of victims will always be in second place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022746e00cb2a3c4f1897b5bdc23a7a7c40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022746e00cb2a3c4f1897b5bdc23a7a7c40\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E In rising to take a brief call in support of the second reading of this bill, I think it is pretty clear that most people believe it is wrong that offenders should be compensated for wrongful treatment, and then in turn not be required to pay restitution to the victims whom they harmed\u2014the harm to those victims, of course, having made them prisoners in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe bill sets out to do two things: first, to ensure that prisoners can be compensated only in acceptable cases after they have gone through all possible avenues of complaint; and then, second, it sets out opportunities in terms of assistance of victims to pursue compensation from those who have offended against them, so that the victims have access to any compensation paid in that regard. So I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00222d41bd4047fe4907afe00457bb4a49f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d41bd4047fe4907afe00457bb4a49f5\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I was not a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee, which heard submissions on this bill, but have listened with some interest to the contributions made by Tim Barnett, Stephen Franks, Edwin Perry, and Nandor Tanczos, who were, I guess, fortunate enough to hear the contributions made, particularly by victims of horrific crime and victims\u2019 families. Tony Ryall has done a substantive job of outlining the reasons why the National Party will not be supporting the second reading of this bill\u2014and I will come to those shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAfter Minister Goff spoke at the start of the second reading, I raised a point of order over a concern I had about the use of minority reports, and about the way the United Future party had tried to have a bob each way. Well, who would have thought that the can of worms that has opened up in this House in the last 20 minutes would have been as a result of my requesting a considered Speaker\u2019s ruling on that matter? In my 5\u00BD years here\u2014I came in with Stephen Franks and Nandor Tanczos in the intake of 1999\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3e3015b268434d8626621794507bc8\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3f4229175e640c58ab93fd355b3f21a\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, and Clayton Cosgrove. The intake of 1999 was a fine vintage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f6d8c9f2c264d038f9ceac0289a9b5d\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: Hey!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a07ab549484813b8a5370adcfa7df9\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, and Mahara Okeroa. My apologies. I have never heard\u2014[Interruption] Oh, and the Deputy Speaker, Ann Hartley. I have never heard a speech from a member of a political party that indicated such open defiance for the position that a party took with respect to a report back on a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI say to Marc Alexander that I congratulate him on finally, after 2\u00BD years, on having the courage to stand up and say things like: \u201CThis report back is incompatible with United Future\u2019s law and order policy.\u201D That is what he said in his contribution. He said that of the three main pillars of United Future\u2019s law and order policy, the last\u2014and in his view, the most important\u2014was \u201Cvictims first\u201D. He went on to say that this bill does not put victims first. He said that in this House. Then he went on to say that it was incompatible with United Future\u2019s law and order policy. But in an open display of what I can only describe as being raw political courage, he stood in this House and said that if his proposed Supplementary Order Paper is defeated in the Committee stage, it will not be him who comes down to the Chamber and delivers the vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis is a member who, I am told, wrote the United Future minority report for the commentary on the bill. It is the most extraordinary set of circumstances when United Future\u2019s law and order spokesperson\u2014somebody who, I have to say, is pretty highly regarded by this House, in general terms\u2014comes down to the House and, with his colleagues sitting near him, says that it will not be him who delivers the vote on behalf of United Future if this bill stays as it is. He has come down to the House and said that this bill is incompatible with United Future\u2019s law and order policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBut in the report back, on page 2, the majority report refers to \u201Cmost of us\u201D as being \u201CLabour and United Future members\u201D. So the situation that United Future finds itself in with this bill is extraordinary. I urge the other members of United Future to display the same political courage that Mr Alexander has displayed and to refuse to come down to the Chamber and vote in favour of the bill if its Supplementary Order Paper is denied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAlthough Mr Alexander honestly conceded that he had not always been at the select committee when it met on this bill\u2014because a smaller party cannot make those select committee commitments, nobody holds that against him, and I would not do that for one moment\u2014he says he believes that the result of the report back was incompatible with United Future\u2019s law and order policy. What an extraordinary position United Future is now in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243c81fbf763b4faa93810c1f5b54141c\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Extraordinary!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a8fc0ab8ab4daab9f5a25617a773c9\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cosgrove is using the same adjective that I am using. We now have a public display in the House as a result of United Future\u2019s spokesperson on law and order coming to this House and saying that he will not be the person who delivers the vote on this bill. I cannot understand how on the one hand United Future says that it is with the majority on this report, but on the other hand its minority report indicates Mr Alexander\u2019s views, not the views of the rest of United Future\u2019s members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe are now in an extraordinary situation where the public will be completely confused about what United Future\u2019s position is. I know that members of this House who follow Mr Alexander\u2019s views on law and order will applaud his courage in standing by his convictions, but at what cost will that be to his prospects in United Future? When bills are drafted as a result of embarrassment to the Government, sloppy law emerges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe National minority view contained in the commentary is concerned with two of those drafting difficulties and uncertainties. The question is this. When funds are made available to victims, how will those damages be apportioned? How will those decisions be made? As the minority report points out, in the case of a serial offender, will those damages be awarded equally, or will they be awarded to those victims who have supposedly suffered more than other victims? What if the victims concerned comprise a very large class of people? For example, in the case of an offender who is a drug dealer, and drugs have been sold to many people, how will those people be tracked down? What damages will they be entitled to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ENational believes that there is a clear case for an independent prison inspector, and has stated that in the minority view. I just say this: Government members and Opposition members will be watching with interest in the Committee stage of this bill, and we will be waiting with interest to see the Supplementary Order Paper to be presented by Marc Alexander. We will be waiting with interest to see who delivers the vote for United Future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00226dbe3208142b4a8aab8e78df1172b02f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dbe3208142b4a8aab8e78df1172b02f\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E Just dealing with some of the points raised by the last speaker, I note that Marc Alexander thinks this legislation should go further. I disagree with that. I think the position that has been espoused by the Minister of Justice is quite right\u2014that it should not go further; that there are human rights implications of going further; that there are international law obligations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce0aad54c8d04b788ea278a5703f53e1\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Why aren\u2019t members who know something about it speaking on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b078daed787c40ae84fa2418ad117e63\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, I am happy to take a call to test my knowledge against Mr Franks\u2019. It is always fun. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThose who say that this does not go far enough to take away the rights of prisoners who have been abused in prison are wrong. We must always acknowledge that, in the worst circumstance, it is possible for a State to torture people. Were a State to do that, then the compensation that the tortured person might eventually get from the State should not be able to be taken back by the State for itself or, indeed, for the benefit of some other person, necessarily. So I do not think the bill should go any further than it does, and I disagree with Mr Alexander on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI also note that although Mr Powers\u2019 prior contribution said a lot about Mr Alexander\u2019s contribution, he did not go so far as to suggest that the bill should take all rights away from inmates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8eb01d90c084ddc9a7c4732d9e62318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8eb01d90c084ddc9a7c4732d9e62318\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am looking at the clock and I see there are only 2 minutes to go, so I will start by reiterating New Zealand First\u2019s minority view. It is really interesting when one picks up a report from a committee that one knows includes members from the Labour Party, National, New Zealand First, the Greens, ACT, and United Future, and one finds that every party except Labour has expressed a minority view in that report, against the bill. It will make interesting commentary on the hustings when the people of New Zealand see that, because it really is confusing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022782cc1a57a6340dfbbc5100b099a5fbd\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the minority view of the majority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a44314749943f1bef4b0a46536ab68\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I think I shall wait until we come back to the House, so that I can use my other 8 minutes to have an uninterrupted speech. I simply say that New Zealand First will oppose this bill. New Zealand First was inclined, and said so at the outset, to support this bill. But with the Government\u2019s refusal to establish a victims\u2019 claims rehabilitation account, into which all moneys would have been paid\u2014leaving the inmates with nothing\u2014we can no longer give this Government our support on this bill, at all. We will oppose it in the Committee, and we will oppose it going through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050512f8dbbfa8ba1a47d2a1f974f7ef1fffcb000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"