"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e42cd45e6b3479ebce500b02f488ebb\u0022\u003ETuesday, 14 June 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022216025a9036e434ea2b62a2b6a4122b2\u0022\u003ETuesday, 14 June 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022848c27b83740414ea53ef4f37a74486e\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229247197c1d594eb59f3775a181b97bc8\u0022\u003ESouth Africa\u2014Portfolio Committee on Finance,National Parliament of the Republic of South Africa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002236fb058328d14c418b04b7eeec1c2804\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236fb058328d14c418b04b7eeec1c2804\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E:I have much pleasure in informing the House that members of the Portfolio Committee on Finance from the National Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, led by Dr Robert Davies MP, are present in the gallery. I am sure that members would wish that the delegation be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c469bf6228c48a795e3d3f18414e6e8\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb835df098e04ccb820c8507e66dc0c1\u0022\u003ESonja Davies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00225b7cf79bfc974f1cbc07902d875145e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b7cf79bfc974f1cbc07902d875145e5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I regret to inform the House of the death on 12 June 2005 of Sonja Margaret Loveday Davies, member of the Order of New Zealand, who represented the electorate of Pencarrow from 1987 to 1993. I desire, on behalf of this House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the late former member. I now ask members to stand with me and observe a period of silence as a mark of respect for her memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EHonourable members stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022399f186d221d4b8bb5e686495b341d2e\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d7d373a22b64e65a9a6714cdee0be50\u0022\u003EGovernment Notice of Motion No. 2\u2014Presence on Order Paper\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u00221ef6e67e19254b0799d9f5cbca0447b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ef6e67e19254b0799d9f5cbca0447b7\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wish to raise with you a point of order about Government notice of motion No. 2, which has sat on the Order Paper for something in the order of 6 months. I note that a member of this House can have a notice of motion on the Order Paper for only 1 week before it is removed or debated. Can I, through you, ask the Leader of the House when that motion will be debated and for an assurance that, in fact, it will be debated before the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4bdeff8214545f69d84fbec26771ae3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4bdeff8214545f69d84fbec26771ae3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E At the request of the Hon Jim Sutton the notice of motion was removed from the Order Paper last week, and does not appear on the Order Paper today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a7e2199c6e47a2ad9c2882d5967607\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The matter has been removed. It is not on the Order Paper at this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002291243edfca1243789cf2108e3f20bb97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291243edfca1243789cf2108e3f20bb97\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Can we take it from the Leader of the House that the Hon Jim Sutton is not prepared to have that debate with Gerry Eckhoff, and that once it was drawn to Mr Sutton\u2019s attention that a debate would be called, he quickly removed the notice? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe8f9156e7f43cba32d0a91876e6b8f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c813dfdf130a40a680fec31fffda182d\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242f66999602d4efebb4d16c900bee442\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294186fb5f1824beb984761a783be0edf\u0022\u003EChild Poverty\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12bb796fee24345bef4027732ee9762\u0022\u003E1. GEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports has he received on child poverty in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00227283660839474539828b8a9b7e55db61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227283660839474539828b8a9b7e55db61\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The latest findings on poverty levels in New Zealand show that poverty rates have declined in New Zealand since 2001 as a result of a rise in real incomes for low-income families. After tax and housing costs, low-income families now have more money in their pockets each week than they did back in 2001, and income levels continue to improve across the board. This is evidence of a steady improvement in social well-being under a Labour-Progressive Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a011ee7bdc0490ab605efb1698ba7d7\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: How does this compare with the trend in previous years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d152bd0221842af99c129b812d861a2\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The proportion of children in families that earn below 60 percent of the median wage has declined significantly, from 27 percent in 2001 to 21 percent in 2004. This compares with a peak of 34 percent in 1994, which shows the impact of benefit cuts, market rent policies, and the Employment Contracts Act at that time. The improvement over the last 3 years has been largely the result of more people in jobs, as a result of the recent economic boom, and income-related rents for State housing. The Working for Families package will have the effect of further dramatically reducing child poverty by up to 70 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1483c51d5f74f86bd45c9776ef75d5c\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports of policies that could reduce expenditure on family support, housing, health care, and education, which could make child poverty worse than it already is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdb2a084fbe846e8b67d8d69a45c70cd\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen reports on an approach that would cut taxes so that the funding would not be available to adequately provide for childcare or for key policies like maintaining income-related rents. In particular, I have seen reports that the National Party would cut short the Working for Families package, with massive impacts on child poverty, in order to fund tax cuts that can only make those who are well off even better off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2fd086ca824d919a58f0c1dc23e34b\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: If it is correct that one of the focuses of the Government\u2019s policy has been on the income of a household so as to benefit the children of that household, what is the Minister\u2019s reaction to the OECD\u2019s findings about the difficulties faced by second-income earners in New Zealand households, and is he prepared, therefore, to consider a policy of allowing people to split their incomes for tax purposes; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c0d8ef7de4d461da745beeba91f1a78\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I am always willing to consider exciting new policies from United Future, but having had a look at these policies, I would say that my opinion at the present time is that the work we are doing on the marginal tax rates and the further work we are to do will be a better way to address that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214848afc17af40bc844805ba218a6edc\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister remind the House which policies are being put in place to put more money into the hands of low to modest income, hard-working New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d205dc16229449b975e8bd0270c3fea\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Almost all families with incomes below $45,000 will benefit from the Working for Families package, along with a substantial number with incomes up to $70,000. Families making $25,000 to $45,000 a year will be, on average, $100 a week better off. To achieve that via a tax cut would cost almost $9 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce2f1f2a02d6477bb04576a402842ebd\u0022\u003EPrisoners\u2014Employment Programmes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E2. Dr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT), on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223361b021af6348718b5ee0986a00c358\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Why did the Budget cut provision for inmate employment by nearly $5 million to $30 million, when inmate numbers are growing, and do the published measures properly report the effectiveness of corrections inmate employment programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002204c42f73bebd4decb7f08a60b4202a91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204c42f73bebd4decb7f08a60b4202a91\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e430aed90f944c20a618d08523025d4e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t believe in work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbd266cf73fe4305a5b0a026901fa2bf\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: About time to see the pharmacist again! I am advised that the $5 million\u2014[Interruption] Have I not seen your brother on a Telecom advertisement? I am advised\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7b111e79b6946bb8c57b3c2103acdef\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am not commenting on the interjections, which I thought were very reasonable and witty. But it is unacceptable that a Minister should bring your brother being in a Telecom advertisement into his answer, and he should apologise to you and to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0e4c386eec14dadad9708087283d576\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When there are interjections, then, as members know, there is likely to be a response. I am sorry, I have ruled on that, Mr Hide. Is this a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222244421a28a4d6dbbc0bb4bc5d13e2f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The accusation was not against a member of the Opposition; it was actually against you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342e0bfb20dc40bf9d16dc6b46627cac\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, I did not take offence at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e8dfe80b3c46cd90f852f84dc81d84\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3230b95ea2e40a5941c30b8f56cbbf1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, you may well take offence on my behalf, but I did not. I appreciate your concern for me. I do, however, wish the Minister to proceed with his answer. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f5f355240a4edf8302f779d1fa686f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022031395af9fd4473389c9e0ae5513c0c7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad6c8eea0ea4a0fb9db29223f975435\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: When a Minister or an MP stands up and brings the Speaker into the debate by referring to \u201Cyour brother\u201D being on a Telecom advertisement, that is actually a reflection on the entire House. He should not bring you into the debate, and he should be pulled up accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cfb06a5f1894f0d980c175056ad4885\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with that point. Now would the Minister please proceed with the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022875ad01fcc6341c6806b8680c41aa044\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the $5 million difference the member refers to is not a cut to the inmate employment budget. It represents an internal transfer in 2004-05 to offset, among other things, a commercial loss caused by difficult trading conditions, particularly in the timber processing industries. Overall, there is a planned 14 percent increase in the hours of inmate employment between 2004-05 and 2005-06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f92cf7943b5b42019b012ee00a2036ef\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: How can the public have any confidence in the honesty of the research produced by this Government, when emails between Department of Corrections managers show that the research report \u201Cto build the case for further employment training\u201D will \u201Cbe highly skewed, as we are looking for our top inmate performers, people you thought would be most likely to get a job post-release.\u201D, and is this not another example of the Labour Government cooking the books to make their soft-on-crime policies look good?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd480241d2c54b949fa402e25acd1613\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a lot, and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207f0bdfbb3174818999532118f907726\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: What plans does the Minister have to increase the effectiveness of inmate employment activities, and to meet demand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a058412aeab47b786aefaf492cf97c4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The inmate employment and training strategy is currently under review. The department is working on a number of initiatives to increase the effectiveness of inmate employment activity, and to meet demand. They include extending vocational training activities and better aligning these with industry needs, joint initiatives with the Ministry of Social Development to place prisoners in work on release, and further developing the numbers and relevance of New Zealand Qualifications Authority unit standards delivered in prisons. These initiatives will form part of the strategic plan for inmate employment, which is due for release in the first quarter of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227faf31f6aa244c6aa318bc888a5d06b4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be taking any action over what appears to be a growing culture within his department for departmental officials to fudge the figures showing the numbers of ex-inmates getting a job, and can he also confirm that his department is also fudging the prison numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212dfd227d3f6436d84ce287fa468bcbc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: There is no such culture as the member says. The Government acknowledges, of course, that the numbers of inmates are rising, because this Government has got tough on crime, unlike the previous Government, which did nothing for 9 long years, as was shown by the referendum in 1999, which was a referendum on the National Government\u2019s inactivity on law and order for 9 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298a60182c12848a0873419f8f95fcbf7\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why should the Opposition have any confidence in the Minister\u2019s answer to that question, bearing in mind the evidence put forward to the Minister that there appears to be an effort within his department to distort those work-related figures to the best types of workers, and bearing in mind that in the past the Minister has not been able to have confidence in his department\u2014for example, as in the \u201Cgoon squad\u201D inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d7ebc37cc314acfb5889fa442e26bca\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that the issue of inmate employment is really critical. People are now indicating to us that there are job shortages in New Zealand. I am very determined to make sure that inmates get proper education and vocational skills training, so they can meet those needs. The department is highly focused on that at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd9e502066a14da38f6aed80eaedcd5f\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister expect civil servants to skew research reports by selecting \u201Cthe top 10 inmates\u201D and declaring that to be a representative sample; if not, will he tell the House that civil servants cooking the books in that way is unacceptable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c968453d154b27a99b17f6c387d420\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have not heard of the allegation until now, and that is not what I would describe as cooking the books. I am indicating to the member that the Government and the department is very, very focused on trying to make major improvements on inmate employment and training. This is the time to do it\u2014a time of labour shortages\u2014and it is really critical that we make improvements in the best interests of not only inmates but also communities within which they will work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214df0fa959a242c4a39ae708fc796918\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister now just front up to the House and say that it is unacceptable for the data of his departmental officials to be \u201Chighly skewed\u201D in order to make the case for another soft-on-crime policy; or is it the case that what officials are doing\u2014skewing the data to make results look good by choosing only the top inmate results\u2014is exactly what this Government expects in every department: police, health, and corrections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d04f82b1cd461699cc992360ca2b12\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is hardly a get-soft-on-crime campaign when we now have the biggest number of inmates New Zealand has ever seen. That is different from the time, actually, when the ACT party supported the previous National Government, which did nothing for the 3 years during which ACT supported it. This Government is determined to make improvements in employment training and education. We are going to make some changes, and those changes will be announced in the first quarter of this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022120590508ef943f79074e9d21f5c3c5c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister find it acceptable that his manager, Win McDonald, sent an email on 25 May copied to his boss Royden Motu, saying that they had an opportunity to \u201Cdemonstrate the corrections inmate employment training results\u201D in order to make the case for more funding, and that \u201Cthe report output will be highly skewed, as we are looking for our top inmate performers\u201D; is it acceptable that his managers do skew and cook the results\u2014yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217af06c27d0844b6a696f964c3331e4e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I am always highly, highly suspicious of allegations from the ACT party, but I will look into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a4ca1ee0ffe45bd9eb4fcf424415b12\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister, if it turns out that those emails are correct and that his corrections managers are skewing results by choosing a non-representative sample in order to increase their budget, just tell the House whether he finds that acceptable; and what action he will take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022011fb6acc4a64a1cb1e060f6dcedf95a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I will make no comment until such time as I have seen the evidence. That is clear, because it is not the first time that the ACT party has got a whole pile of things very, very wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747c13ec89e749da9e3681dc43583e40\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the series of emails that show that those Department of Corrections officials appear to have been cooking the books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae814b6f2df4c7db8982b5cfe6e4aab\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table the results of a referendum in 1999 about National\u2019s inactivity on law and order for 9 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e828d351504cbaad9a464f74160eff\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is; it will not be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229777fe9d148e4cf9bc0bee43373d373e\u0022\u003ELogging of Indigenous Forests\u2014Crown Land\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eea15fc78e04a66bc3f2fe8e2c72ad6\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What conservation goals led the Government to end the logging of indigenous forests on Crown-managed land?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00220fc54f68503d446e8719902d2f00c524\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fc54f68503d446e8719902d2f00c524\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E The Government protected indigenous forests on Crown-owned and managed land to help meet the goals of the New Zealand biodiversity strategy. These included maintaining and restoring a full range of remaining natural habitats and ecosystems to a healthy, functioning condition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dc40934a5ca46519036d87dcbf7b9f3\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the biodiversity strategy also apply under the sea; if so, will he agree that the same goals should apply to the equally ancient underwater forests of tall corals and their multitude of associated species, and what discussion has he had with his colleague the Minister of Fisheries about ways of protecting them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223be53fdcac7e4cb0975b0a58a87d16ff\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed it does, and, in fact, in 2004 the Government adopted a strategy to protect deep-water biodiversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a63b8755cc1c4e109682f02f4ba62cc5\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: What other actions has the Government taken to meet the conservation goals of the biodiversity strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270f6776bc5144c8d8706c74a7cb2a6b1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We have increased funding for the Department of Conservation by over 40 percent, enabling it to tackle weed and pest problems better than ever before. We have embarked on the most ambitious island pest eradication programme found anywhere in the world. Large new areas of forest, high-country, and coastal land have been protected as public conservation land. Eleven new marine reserves have been created, and 2 percent of our exclusive economic zone is now in some form of marine protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ffbeb0b119149a180f4f177c523c67b\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What goal motivated the Government to give the West Coast councils $120 million of taxpayers\u2019 money to cut taxpayer-owned forests, yet that Minister denied many SILNA landowners compensation for the Government\u2019s denial of their right to realise the economic value of the lands awarded to them by this House in 1906?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9424778ab484555b0f70996900e6b41\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I know that it was National that exempted the SILNA forests from an amendment to the Forests Act in 1993. By the time National was thrown out of office in 1999, it had not resolved the issues. This Government adopted a comprehensive policy for SILNA forests in 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b1ddf14147b410882ce047db13ce04b\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports that some of the indigenous forests protected since 1999 could be at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223897ff3cdd964996bb66ffe137fcb176\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed I have. I have seen a recent report that Don Brash and Nick Smith had called for resumption of logging of the West Coast native forests, which were protected under the Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c62d5b243a4f428cbd32ff7db73ad6\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that conservation goals would be assisted better if his strategy required all fishing methods to undergo environmental impact assessment, as the Greens have proposed, and what representations is his department making to advance this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272607d8ce54e41d9ac5b45d1f514abc0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: My department\u2014indeed, the Government\u2014is very committed to the defence of New Zealand\u2019s unique marine biodiversity. Different Government departments continue to collaborate closely on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022042a891147a94cff8b560fbdc58a4e80\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen the recent Greenpeace photos in the New Zealand Herald today, and on television on Sunday, in which New Zealand fishing vessels are shown hauling up, then dumping over the side, giant corals and rare sea creatures, and how long does he think it is acceptable for that practice to continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad78a56a48954dae8a3bebc42532adbe\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed I have seen those photographs, but I am pleased to announce that, today, my colleague David Benson-Pope, the Minister of Fisheries, announced that New Zealand, together with Chile and Australia, would lead development of a regional fisheries management agreement that will give greater protection to high-seas biodiversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212787e482eae4da6907e08497e12d253\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Returning to New Zealand\u2019s economic zone, rather than the high seas, does he agree with marine biologist Dr Steve O\u2019Shea, of Auckland University of Technology, as reported in today\u2019s New Zealand Herald, who describes bottom trawling as \u201Cabsolute annihilation\u201D, and goes on to say: \u201CThere should be some urgency. For God\u2019s sake, let\u2019s do something practical now before it\u2019s too late.\u201D; if so, what will he do in New Zealand waters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022990996ba0d884883b4988d0faba78359\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed I do agree with those comments, but as there is no international proposal at the moment for a complete moratorium on bottom trawling, New Zealand is working closely with Australia to develop a regional agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efcd6ced0f5147a0909fd093369bd41f\u0022\u003EAustralian Shares\u2014Capital Gains Tax\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f60cd80a60142ef905dfcff42b5bba3\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: If a New Zealander holds shares in an Australian company, does the investor pay any tax on any capital gains, and could this position change after 1 April 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b28a31c0b49d45c6aad7f86c323ac6d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b28a31c0b49d45c6aad7f86c323ac6d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Possibly, and therefore possibly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91ccb8c14ba4f74acca9c59a345b7fb\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders who passively own shares in an Australian company be forced to pay a capital gains tax after April 2007, something they are currently exempt from, given that the Australian companies they invest in are in many cases no different from the equivalent New Zealand companies that invest capital, create jobs, and pay tax here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e69cd37f4364c46a196e3b3cd87b447\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, I have clearly expressed a view that there is no single solution that will treat\u2014[Interruption] Goodness me! This is from the party that admires the Australian tax system, which has a generalised capital gains tax in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb64da1e1994f32bddf680bf3535a99\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is this capital gains tax not just another tax grab from a Government that is spending so much that it is always looking at new ways to gain tax, whether it is through sherry, petrol, or carbon emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e4d6db9ed894291895443c51e134c09\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am fascinated that the member has finally read the Budget speech, where I refer to this as being potentially a capital gains tax. It has taken only 4 weeks for him to wake up to what everybody else recognised in a space of minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c7b80f0af7d49e0b909284314bf43e1\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: How on earth can the Minister be serious about promoting a single economic market with Australia, when he is now proposing a capital gains tax on Australian investments held by New Zealand residents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d6f66a552c48f1a813a8d7771e88a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Australia has a general capital gains tax, it is rather strange to suggest that a capital gains tax could not be applied to any form of investment in Australia. The fact is that if we want to simplify a system that at present distinguishes between where people invest, how they invest\u2014whether on a revenue or capital account\u2014and how they calculate the investment according to four different methods, there is only one way of doing it. But of course anything that is simple is beyond the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275766046e9884082b8849bdfbf6e5816\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister expect a small stock market like New Zealand\u2019s to cope with all the offshore capital that could get repatriated as a result of his proposed capital gains tax; and is it not true that if the bulk of that capital does come home, it will just end up in the property market, something the Minister was moaning about during the earlier part of this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022139144707ea940ec90d1a0a0f7337ef5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Given that member\u2019s plans to give away billions of dollars a year in terms of tax cuts, I am sure he would want a lot of money to be repatriated to pay for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f851f35ca8a4902ab7a127a5f4ca04d\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the tax schedules that show the New Zealander who passively owns shares today in Australia does not currently pay tax but will do so after 1April 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d87fec505a846e1901fd3735d3754c8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b12aaf8e08c44eeae3c9e36e67e632c\u0022\u003ETreaty of Waitangi\u2014Education Programme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d78071fda47a419dbeb8ea556acf8baa\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Coordinating Minister, Race Relations: What has been the total cost for each year since 1999 to all Government departments for providing both internal and external treaty-related courses and associated educational material?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed9edf438ec6443e8befd04aeb37a214\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed9edf438ec6443e8befd04aeb37a214\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Coordinating Minister, Race Relations):\u003C/span\u003E I do not hold information on how much each individual department has spent on treaty-related courses and educational material. If the member really wishes to obtain this information I suggest he put down written questions to responsible Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c4494e435a64616acf645af5a8f8dbc\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the money spent on educational programmes for State servants regarding the Treaty of Waitangi is simply feeding the\u2014and I quote the Minister, who said this last week\u2014\u201Ctreaty industry\u201D; if not, can he identify any positive quantifiable outcomes that have been made in the public service as a result of this spending, and would he take as an outcome the views of Mr Graham Kelly, who said, on the M\u0101ori population: \u201CThere were seven canoes that came in 740 from Hawaiki so there are seven tribes. They all held each others\u2019 hands to stop them from sinking on the voyage. Once they got to New Zealand they started fighting and eating each other, so there have been M\u0101ori wars ever since then.\u201D; and are the views expressed in Ottawa by Mr Graham Kelly, our high commissioner in Ottawa, an example of the positive quantifiable outcome of the Minister\u2019s programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b10b254aa54b828238e382f162f352\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think it would be fair to say that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade has some work to do, as far as Mr Kelly is concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea5cc725960c47718f29d54eea6a4351\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister keep on standing up in front of the House, even after a week or more, declaring that he still cannot supply us with full details of the amount of taxpayers\u2019 money that has been spent on worthless educational courses for bureaucrats and one foreign affairs official, at least, when the public deserves to know the extent of the Government\u2019s wastefulness in this area, and is it simply because, if the true amount were known, no amount of Government spin would be able to justify such a flagrant waste of taxpayers\u2019 money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb1a4bd11e84bd4acecce5f461970d4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I do accept that it would be a challenge as far as one current Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade employee is concerned, having known the individual for some time, but I am willing to encourage my colleagues to get the information together\u2014not that there has been any policy change since Nick Smith was in charge of the area, as far as education is concerned. We could collect the information up, if the member puts down proper questions. If he really wants advice on how to draft an appropriate question\u2014I think he was first in Parliament in 1975, but he does not know how to draft questions yet\u2014I am willing to give him a guide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e404e3e6c2d490981e5fb8e6cce24f1\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Despite the Minister\u2019s failure to answer any of these questions properly until now, can he still try to tell us in what way the $6 million set aside for this Government\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi education programme and any additional amounts will benefit New Zealanders: for example, will it reduce elective surgery waiting times, will it reduce the exorbitant school fees imposed on parents by this Government, or has it merely created more jobs and higher pay for the Labour Party\u2019s girls and boys?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9aebde4cffa4f67b90e582d3a3be4b5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is fair to say that there would be a debate about whether the majority of the people involved in what the member refers to as the \u201Ctreaty industry\u201D are Labour Party supporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022821550a0742246c2b89213d1242e1d53\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder whether, through you, we may ask Mr Dail Jones to table or explain where our High Commissioner in Canada made those comments, so that we can see that this is what the Labour Party MPs really think and what their appointments actually say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd97b52874554467b25bf77616b773ed\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022caee686976c5409384bb5edca3d21b83\u0022\u003ELand\u2014Public Access\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222859724e9be64a81a4aca773f37331c9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Rural Affairs: When will he introduce legislation to implement the Government\u2019s decisions on the walking access policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u002273f624fbe6e64fa7bada0a23c0d301c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273f624fbe6e64fa7bada0a23c0d301c7\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Associate Minister for Rural Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E A bill has yet to be drafted. I intend to introduce it when it is ready.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb59c1400a84428a9a2caf38f44e9863\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government\u2019s proposed policy have the support of all departments and ministries; if so, how does he explain the advice from the Ministry for the Environment dated 22 October 2004, stating that it remains \u201Cunconvinced about the nature of the problem and the rationale for Government intervention.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c7bfe9041c4a5e93348e65b390d819\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The policy decisions that have been made to date have the support of all Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228307fd6d6f564948bd388bc00e322c61\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I did not ask whether it had the support of all Ministers. I asked whether it had the support of departments and ministries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7e6b507e14c4afb8421337dbc4402f6\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly has the support of the departments and ministries for which I have responsibility. I have no reason to doubt that the ministry quoted by the member is now convinced of the need for the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f824478efd64f86b105d6ecbe398d15\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s response to the condemnation of his proposed legislation by recreational groups such as Public Access New Zealand, the Deerstalkers Association, the Federation of Freshwater Anglers, and also what is the significance of the review of the job of Bryce Johnson\u2014his major advocate\u2014chief executive officer of the Fish and Game Council, by the board of the New Zealand Council of Outdoor Recreation Associations, which according to reliable information has voted 7:5 to sack him due to his anti-rural and rural-bashing campaigns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ce1498ad044d95a3297bc1e35c3ac8\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding of the coalition of outdoor recreation associations is that its actual position is that it wants the walking policy to go ahead, even though it does not go as far as it would like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228499d4531a414d9081658a062502e9cb\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he write to Mr Webber of South Head, Kaipara, who complained that Carter Holt Harvey had planted two rotations of pine forest on a legal paper road, denying the public access to Muriwai beach, stating that he should pursue the matter through the courts, and does the Government\u2019s policy on public access exempt forestry companies from the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226601c656438c4ba386fb71fa5d76556f\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The forestry companies are not exempt from the law in any way, as far as I know. I have no recollection of the correspondence concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022541103eb984b4ac9a31cb26db17c2eba\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give an assurance to the House and to the hundreds of thousands from the recreational sector that this long-awaited access legislation will be introduced before the election this year; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249a7ea43a9744213b2f8b0ef9eda78e1\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly my intention to progress the bill to a stage where it can be introduced before the election, but because I do not know the timing of the election, I cannot provide an absolute assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ad159932b8f493e99a7d6d200d0cf6d\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm today that this Government\u2019s policy is opposed by Land Information New Zealand, which says that the policy has: \u201Cserious implications for property rights\u201D, and that it is also opposed by Treasury, which says it: \u201Cdoes not see the benefits of the policy outweighing the detriment\u201D, and what is the opinion of the New Zealand Police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a81b388a469a43c1a303b799b26f3e98\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the member that under this Government it is the elected members and their Cabinet who set the policy, not bureaucrats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f27351b6eb864554b63ddd0901434d4f\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister read the United Future and Outdoor Recreation NZ policy called Practical Access to New Zealand\u2019s Great Outdoors, and if so, given its common-sense and balanced approach to the access issue and the fact that the Government will need United Future\u2019s support for the passage of the access legislation, will he assure farmers that they have nothing to fear from the intended proposals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac565089d4bb4ba8aae0678177f95f6f\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: As it happens, I have read the policy mentioned by the member, although I did not see anything about walking access in it. However, I acknowledge the strong loyalty of United Future to outdoor recreationists and I can assure them that in my judgment the farmers of New Zealand should, in their own enlightened self-interest, welcome that policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b9108aab2d4166b0714aaa8f1f6135\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: In light of his earlier answer that this matter will be decided by politicians and not bureaucrats, can he assure the House that he has the full support of the M\u0101ori caucus for his land access policy, particularly in light of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u2019s advice that M\u0101ori land should be excluded because it breaches article 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi, which provides M\u0101ori with \u201Cfull exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0aaba90c8f14e98a45341f8c1e4e36c\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am confident I have the support of my colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225aeb2ca154f446faed579da683deea0\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry paper addressed to the Minister for Rural Affairs and the Associate Minister for Rural Affairs, dated 22 October 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb9139d12d924abab539ba4c8a6a2bd5\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the article in the New Zealand Herald on Sunday, which clearly states that the so-called M\u0101ori caucus has huge reservations about the proposed legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228919ef0e940246ddbe4068dc27f7e328\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022957e926d25d6471ea9db9d1b13f0cdfe\u0022\u003ENuclear-free Policy\u2014Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ff4890209a24adb9bd3e0a4b30e405d\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade: What reports, if any, has he received on changes to New Zealand\u2019s nuclear-free policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022f37867b8df8e46d491167533261a4b63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f37867b8df8e46d491167533261a4b63\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen two reports on a bill before Parliament designed to end New Zealand\u2019s nuclear-free status. One report shows that a large majority of New Zealanders, contrary to the intention of this bill, want their country to stay nuclear-free. This bill will therefore be an embarrassment to parties that intend to repeal nuclear-free legislation but are desperate not to make their intention clear before the election. The other report is from the Agenda programme on Saturday, which revealed that neither Dr Brash nor most of the National caucus supports a nuclear-free New Zealand but will not vote for the bill. Clearly, the National Party is the party that will suffer the most embarrassment from the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7010868f5794a34b6841f542eb3e232\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Standing Orders are very clear that the Minister has absolutely no responsibility for the best part of that answer, and I would like to know why you did not intervene at the beginning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd3b1f4a759476c968649af653a9e09\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He was asked about reports. In his answer he stated the reports he had available to him. He was not saying he was responsible for anyone else\u2019s policy, as I heard the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c86fa063b3dd4c36ae4ae4057bfe0ed6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Are you saying that it is acceptable for Ministers to make comment on matters for which they have no responsibility? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256f2aa42a5e948448b488b7a8e90be45\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is the foreign affairs Minister, and the legislation being referred to is a key aspect of New Zealand\u2019s foreign policy. Certain foreign Governments would be very interested in the prospect of any change to that policy at some time within the foreseeable future. The Minister is perfectly free to comment on the likelihood, or otherwise, of any change in that policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225983111d0da246c29e022b5c24e176fa\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: My point is that we could not set down a question on the Order Paper about an article that appeared in the Wall Street Journal, which absolutely caned New Zealand for its non-proliferation nuclear, one might say, allies, or allegiances, that it has struck up around the world; something we know is a cause of embarrassment for the Government. Because the Minister has no direct responsibility for that issue, we cannot raise it. So the point is, if the Minister is able to use a patsy question from a member, who hardly ever asks a question in the House, to offer his opinions on some other party\u2019s policy, then perhaps you can free us up so that we can do exactly the same when we ask questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a81cfeedbe4a8da2f707edb33fbf93\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. As I said originally, if there had been hypothetical speculation on what might be the policy, then no, but there was a reference to specific reports. One cannot speculate on what might happen, but if there is a reference to specific reports, then that is in the context of addressing the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9d48021585241988b66019d9d8aea27\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292042f603f7d4cc5b6535c6250680ce9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on the point. Is this a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e37a7380589f469ca8b556e28bfab190\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c23677572ff1476ca4c05da7e9f56a03\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98dcde5e10448faa9f5c32a556d7ce6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I ask you, in light of that ruling, to have a close look at Hansard, because I believe there was a lot of speculation in his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec6f7ee748a84667a7c99634afe8070b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that and I shall do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102a90ac5a9b415591a9b37deb20c262\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: Are these the only reports the Minister has seen on this subject?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0ff259eb6ee4976b787f934d6cdb629\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have, of course, seen another rather famous report in which Don Brash promised congressmen that under National, New Zealand\u2019s nuclear-free status would be \u201Cgone by lunchtime\u201D. The honourable member apparently could not remember that, but that is a clear case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c14e162e04400eb88c5ae4a75bf771\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That is a completely unsubstantiated lie from the Minister. If he wants to make that statement, surely he needs to place the evidence on the Table of the House. I have already explained that we are not able to go into the issue of New Zealand aligning itself with Iran over nuclear non-proliferation, and the embarrassment that issue is clearly causing the Government. But if we have this sort of speculation from the Minister, and these mistruths put in front of the House, then we have to have the opportunity to respond appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3eeb1223e946c5b019013409aec3ac\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I say that far from it being an unsubstantiated lie, I laid on the Table the transcript that showed that Don Brash, contrary to assertions that the member has just made, said precisely what I quoted him as saying. Don Brash could not remember, of course, whether he had said it, but we all know what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a92849e58b4dcb881a42cc1b50f5d6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Quiet, please. Points of order are to be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022825c0ac42cac4d6da4fa7e5c3078cd29\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Quite apart from the fact that the Minister\u2019s response was not a point of order, I assume now that he is calling the senators who were present at that meeting liars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298e8da8ea60c44c1aac35f4c0abd39ea\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We are now getting into debating the Minister\u2019s answer. The Minister said that he saw a report and that he has tabled that report. That addresses that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cfca40b82e64ad6b8b760eeb0434156\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister said that he had tabled the transcript of the exchange. My understanding is that there was no transcript, but that he had a report from an official. If, in fact, he has a transcript, I think it would be helpful if he did table it; otherwise I think he is misleading the House\u2014I am not saying intentionally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c073884fd3494d9fa16316081fc1cec7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right. It was a report from an official, who is a neutral public servant, on what he heard Dr Brash say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228100cd48a3814670917b7dfcf48d0be2\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: What is the reason for New Zealand\u2019s nuclear-free policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad37ccd3ca094ff2bf8d81cd2e79a2e4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s policy reflects a longstanding commitment, shared by the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders, that this country should remain nuclear-free and that decisions on this issue should be made by New Zealanders, according to what we think is right. Dr Brash\u2019s behaviour suggests that he believes the opposite, but will not come clean because of political expediency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280c2a0f9d9e447088d9838f0e5184d56\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I refer you to Speaker\u2019s ruling 145/5, which states: \u201C\u2026 The Minister, in answering about the report, cannot be hypothetical about what may or may not be the effects of another political party\u2019s policy.\u201D I simply ask you to enforce it. The last three answers from this Minister have breached that very clear Standing Order and Speaker\u2019s ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d087e4a9914b97b2ea50fcef3947a7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: They were not speculation; they were comments on a report that has, in fact, been put before the House. So they were not hypothetical. Whether those reports were accurate is not for the Speaker to determine. But there was a basis for the statement. It was not a hypothetical assumption of what might or might not be someone else\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dca0e456a7524066bdb39a763cf2a436\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Then how would you explain the Minister deviating from an answer to a question about the reason for New Zealand\u2019s non-nuclear status by going immediately into what he thinks Dr Brash has meant? I point out to you and to the House that Dr Brash has said that we will not support ACT\u2019s legislation because we have a position that does exactly as the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade has suggested\u2014we would put the issue before New Zealanders before anything was even considered. The issue here is that the Minister was asked a specific question about the policy, but then immediately broke into his opinion on what Dr Brash\u2019s comments might have meant, and, what is worse, his reporting of Dr Brash\u2019s comments was, to say the least, inaccurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d78a9000304ffb9fd3d97193533ee7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister does, in fact, say\u2014and I think that in this instance the Minister did say\u2014that he believes that Dr Brash said something, then that is not appropriate, because that is speculation. If, in fact, there is some evidence for the statement, then that is within the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddd3eba347cd4ae684c95dbf9e14181b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister had any evidence of memory lapses from the official concerned, or of any lack of ability to write down what happened at the time; if not, is there anything else in the report that might explain why Dr Brash no longer remembers what he said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ff40663eea4c43a2d8a1c1840e3cfe\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Where on earth is this Minister\u2019s responsibility for the psychological state of a State official whose recollection of an event has not been substantiated by most of the other parties who took part in that meeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225589f7da02c249d0b557b4bdbf0a6a5c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: This issue could be so much more easily settled if Dr Brash simply came to the House and gave a personal explanation stating that he never said that and that he does not believe it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a177be1af149f7b37e4a132d443d25\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question seems to me to go beyond what the Minister\u2019s responsibility is in terms of speculating upon motive. However, the Minister is responsible, of course, for officials who are in the ministries for which he is responsible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ec6e0697ca42f283f477358a93de43\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That is a very interesting ruling, because we have been trying to get the Hon George Hawkins to be responsible for officials in his department for months. We have had repeated advice from the Speaker that the Minister is not responsible for operational matters, not responsible for the direct employment of anybody in his department, and responsible only for vote allocations. How is it different for the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7192af933d43f6b4ff028439973bec\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we are confusing issues here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224068b3ad37334ff9911f818a2aaf37dc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, we are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fed711820b14b5fa61cab22a8fbd2d6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are. The matter was about operational, administrative matters. However, I think the Minister will have to be very careful as he addresses this question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b623acff5a4e4b9501a60a13a4f865\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The skill that Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials have is to sit at meetings and accurately record what was said. The official concerned had no political axe to grind. He was quite clear in what was said, unlike Dr Brash, who claimed he could not remember what he said a couple of weeks earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022511acea04af04ecb86a9b742ecaa7ffa\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That last part was unnecessary; that was speculating on Dr Brash\u2019s state of mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b4a6a8de1440c0bc974fd6e9e7545c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I would never do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1dde89b333546b08e7cfe63f4ec29a8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Stop it. That was out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a1037050c4a4d76b3f9bbac31b4daea\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Can I, and can the House, interpret the Minister\u2019s answers to be that he has seen reports that have led him to believe that the majority of New Zealanders support the nuclear-free policy, and that is the real reason why the Government supports the policy; if so, does he have any fear of the issue of nuclear-powered shipping being put to a referendum, and if he does, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347ad673d2fe4e9fa7a3d5880d409112\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The public opinion on this issue has been quite consistent since 1987. It is not a case of the Labour Government believing in the policy because of the public opinion\u2014other parties in the House might do that. The Labour Government has been steadfastly committed\u2014along with the Greens and, I think, most other parties in the House except for National and ACT\u2014to a policy of keeping New Zealand nuclear-free. Because public opinion has been so consistent for so long, there is absolutely no need for a referendum\u2014that is already clear. The only need for a referendum is so that an expedient political party can try to get itself off the hook, which is precisely what National is trying to do, as Ken Shirley pointed out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281bb43211a60422b83d6c086935ab172\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall that the Hon Richard Prebble introduced the first private member\u2019s bill to ban nuclear ships in New Zealand waters; if so, has he received an explanation for Mr Prebble\u2019s U-turn on this matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b65df8a864bf4daab71dc2f318bbdd13\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I very clearly do remember that, and Ken Shirley was an adamant supporter of that policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022508b27846b95476f98573b4826fd5da5\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. How could that question possibly be in order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222868b7c5037745f0bb6fcaf3e3399af7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I agree with the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e7e59750863498ebb170e6b71f56eab\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: We are quite happy to have Phil Goff speculate on it\u2014it is no embarrassment to us\u2014but we must have some Standing Orders applying in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288a7984a729b43cfb2ac869cc7e11a85\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You are ahead, Mr Hide. I agree that that question was inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225893055e86f544e1a9b1de0a2518c2b3\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I am obliged to my leader, but I am actually very proud of those three bills. They brought down the Muldoon Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227338d03e3b784681bd71628439d775fc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that bit of history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d383d4d02845c882565ff2a1919302\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table the Wall Street Journal article in which New Zealand is associated with Iran on the complete failure of the negotiations for the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, which is a tragedy for New Zealand and the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4fae753db76466783ddd92f726b33c1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225682bcb70adb4a4ca1e849f52cff325b\u0022\u003EAccident and Emergency Centres\u2014Waiting Times\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022933de437538f467a9283f746aa2ec6b6\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does she stand by her statement regarding accident and emergency department waiting times: \u201CAny patients who present with those conditions should be seen within that time, and I believe they are.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022456c8605c7ed4272a85151155ea27a1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022456c8605c7ed4272a85151155ea27a1f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbd65e1141d94db889320d37e5614c59\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister also claim last Thursday: \u201CIf the member were to speak to clinicians, they would tell him that no person who has had a heart attack or who is haemorrhaging waits longer than he or she needs to.\u201D, and does this not typify her failure to appreciate reality, given that the benchmark report shows that 14 out of 21 district health boards fail to meet targets and that clinicians I have spoken to this very afternoon say that her statement is utter, unadulterated nonsense?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f09a751c42b0425eb651091e4182a0d4\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, it means that I believe the clinicians. I direct the member to Dr Peter Freeman, head of the emergency department at Capital and Coast District Health Board, who said that patients in triage category 1 are seen immediately. I believe Dr Freeman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc742da177b248e687d41eb0ac8ef585\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm the concern raised in the House by Dr Hutchison on 8 June that 14 out of 21 district health boards failed to attend to serious conditions such as heart attack and massive bleeding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd4676dc682246919565f142fa4a4085\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No. Dr Hutchison misinformed this House on at least two occasions last week when he claimed that 14 of the 21 district health boards \u201Cfailed to attend to serious conditions such as heart attacks, massive bleeding, \u2026\u201D. The latest report\u2014the March 2005 report\u2014did not show that at all. It showed that five of the 21 did not meet the benchmark. However, the waiting time starts from a patient\u2019s first contact with a triage nurse and runs until the consultation with a registered medical practitioner. Often the doctor does not log on to the medical records system until after he or she has completed the consultation. In other words, doctors attend to the patient first, then they log on to the system. That is why Dr Peter Freeman, head of the emergency department in Wellington, said that the triage report did not accurately reflect patient care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c97bc2cc6a46a4ae52a2b934066d1b\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister has suggested that I misinformed the House. I believe that she has misinformed the House by not accurately recording my entire question, which showed that 14 out of 21 district health boards in New Zealand failed to achieve the measured times that were recommended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022871d507c7a8d4e97aa28e67b236ee768\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I will table the report, because the member is portraying it incorrectly\u2014for political purposes, I think. It does not show what that member says it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a4a3c5a829a4fb28417975c1384c344\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister care to table that report now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222269addd64724fd48b892fe2767a6443\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the latest benchmark report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2ecdc407aed4cc78a5a0f4d439829a5\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: What encouragement can the Minister offer to the staff and patients at Wellington Hospital\u2019s emergency department, given that patients who present with anything less serious than a heart attack, massive bleeding, or concussion may find themselves waiting in hallways, storage facilities, or the counselling room for treatment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265690940804c47729655781f091bd5c9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to tell the member that quite a lot has been done at the Wellington Hospital emergency department. Opened only 4\u00BD years ago, it will have an assessment unit of 14 beds by August, which will allow people to move through the emergency department faster, and an ambulatory care zone for fast tracking of patients will be developed. It has a four-bed area that will be used for this purpose. So people in the department are doing the best they can. They are under pressure and they acknowledge that. However, the head of their department tells me that they are seeing people appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298cc5a2943a04f86b19cb7495696745a\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Given that after-hours services have been closed or reduced at Taumarunui, Winton, Wellington, Tauranga, New Plymouth, Upper Hutt, Queenstown, and Dunedin under her watch; that several boards are considering charging at accident and emergency departments; and that the latest New Zealand Doctor polls show that half the country\u2019s general practitioners are struggling with their after-hours situation, does she rule out allowing accident and emergency departments to charge, and how is it possible that she has such a disaster on her hands, given that she has injected an extra $3.5 billion into health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6dc956f70a4d2eac907139b5d08266\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The only people who think we have an absolute disaster on our hands are members of the ACT party, who are trying to get some sort of traction when they are 2 percent in the polls and getting absolutely nowhere. No patient is charged for an accident and emergency service that should be handled in a hospital. But for many years hospitals have offered out general practitioner services, and patients are charged the same as they would be when going to any general practitioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c27fe956d72416c847a7c6cf69ede2b\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she not changed the system of recording triage times, given that last Thursday she claimed it was a poor way of measuring data, even though her ministry initiated the system, and is this not just another case of an inept Minister ducking responsibility and trying to bluff and blather her way out of a very serious issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f49a555a47f4728aedf1455ec33be89\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the member, who is a doctor, would have known that triage times were not set by my ministry, but by the Australasian College for Emergency Medicine. He will also know that the college is reviewing with the ministry the way we recall the triage times, because they do not\u2014as Dr Freeman said\u2014accurately show the care a patient is getting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af486520b774fc188fa4fb0680415bd\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with comments made by Helen Clark 9 years ago, when she said: \u201CWe know that winter brings an increase in health problems. It happens every year, but our hospitals must be ready to cope with the problems. It just isn\u2019t good enough to have basic services break down.\u201D, and does she remain in denial that the reporting of patients being treated in the corridors of Wellington Hospital and of storage rooms being used for treatment is yet another sign that basic services have broken down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa0733de063449339f92ede13cde83c7\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I agree with the Prime Minister. That is why, under this Government, the specialty of emergency medicine was introduced for the first time. One of the reasons Wellington Hospital is having some problems is that, unfortunately, there are not enough beds in the emergency department that was opened 4\u00BD years ago. I wish the National Government had decided to make it bigger when they decided on its size in 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db881dcb1c8a4d91809c8b1251eeb439\u0022\u003EHealth, Ministry\u2014Policy and Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d23d0e5eb564951a5b1717e76eca4b4\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is she confident that policy and funding originating from the Ministry of Health are achieving their intended purpose; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00222ddd27d01dbc48e19e73b8f2c176292f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ddd27d01dbc48e19e73b8f2c176292f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In general, yes, as seen by the improvement in New Zealanders\u2019 life expectancy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230fa9c950ca54906813e6c222b74ee87\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister assure us that the funds allocated in the latest Budget will be used to improve the lives of those in aged care; if so, why is the chief executive of HealthCare Providers New Zealand, Martin Taylor, saying that most of the increased rest home spending will be used to meet the cost of inflation and cover existing deficits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c91c32cb59246348706494d3146b4fb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that the money will be spent for the benefit of all New Zealanders, particularly older New Zealanders, and that the additional money that is being spent for aged care will go for aged care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022431467cbeec34b609d9fef6fc0d80769\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister also confident that primary-care policy and funding originating from the Ministry of Health are achieving their intended purpose? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4cf0b0d6b254225a71570904010abad\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Primary Health Care Strategy, I think, is the greatest improvement in primary health care policy for decades. It does mean that many New Zealanders now have access to affordable primary health care. From 1 July this year, the 18 to 24-year-olds will join the over-65s and the under-18s in getting access to more affordable primary health care\u2014something that New Zealanders had until the Budget of 1991, when Ruth Richardson took away the subsidy they had for primary health care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2912ca22ba4fbe9348336cf64c9e55\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister not admit failure, when, after a further $3.5 billion has been poured into health and after massive, unnecessary restructuring, patients, including the elderly, spill into hospital corridors, a situation Helen Clark described in 1996 as \u201Cdisgraceful for a public health system in the middle of winter\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb1946a6ca949c0af785b21d50824b0\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The reason is that it would be wrong. That is the reason why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2426bcb2fca4d8199b4d543bfaf8a2b\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confident that the recent Budget funding will provide adequate funding for the elderly who lack financial resources and require rest home care, and who depend totally on superannuation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f87d7ceb0cd4de29ae9271819818ec7\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b6c12398c4840bab8df348020940dea\u0022\u003EForeshore and Seabed Act\u2014Legal Aid\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d25a433547b43eab1a274bed48d3c03\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Deputy Prime Minister: Does he remain committed to upholding his statement of 6 May 2004 in relation to the Foreshore and Seabed Bill that it \u201Cdoes not establish a new avenue for legal aid\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00223558544bbbd54119a02df58b1c2048e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223558544bbbd54119a02df58b1c2048e0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3b84bed32d6456bbe8411c341f78593\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Deputy Prime Minister confirm reports from Judge Joe Williams, Chief Judge of the M\u0101ori Land Court, that six new appointments to the bench of that court are imminent; and can he also confirm that Treasury Budget documents state that most of those new appointments will be the result of the Foreshore and Seabed Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8669fbab2424e53a0bf0f4c4f2c3d20\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is expected that additional appointments to the M\u0101ori Land Court will be required to deal with applications, though I think so far there have been only about two applications to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de31120dff234181bd599c188821330d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Then can the Minister tell us why Cabinet has approved six new appointments to that bench?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d01a884ec5e4eec88faa6a96c46470f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is in anticipation of their being required to deal with applications. Of course, should those applications not eventuate, then that may have an impact on requirements in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bce0be3a9ad84086889f5ad5f8810ecf\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that those appointments were indicated by the Court of Appeal in the Ng\u0101ti Apa case, when it indicated that the new jurisdiction and the extra work that would arise would require further appointments to the M\u0101ori Land Court; and that the Government is merely following the Court of Appeal\u2019s recommendation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207d6f318ef2d4a0da09ddba3b6b400fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. Those who did not support passing legislation in relation to the Ng\u0101ti Apa decision would have been left in that position, in any case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc41dc6bdf4d4f3fa822846f91b9fd28\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister participated in discussions that have resulted in a commitment for the Labour Government, should it be returned to the Treasury benches, to support Nanaia Mahuta\u2019s bill that allows foreshore and seabed claimants access to legal aid?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219cd851918b547fabd4e195fc92d63f6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae3706c54e3c467dbee6c6ad5a9f0c49\u0022\u003EApples\u2014Australian Market Access\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022406006456be04d7c977e082530158142\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour\u2014Napier)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade Negotiations: What progress, if any, can he report in the battle to get access to the Australian market for New Zealand apples?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022342236e5050749048666556bcf08553f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022342236e5050749048666556bcf08553f\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has decided to inscribe the Australian apples issue on the agenda of this month\u2019s meeting of the World Trade Organization Committee on Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures. We have been trying hard for many years to get a fair deal for New Zealand apple growers. We consider that the science is clear but, regrettably, the whole Australian process has dragged on too long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1627ef8fea442988642ba270ae45cf4\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Why has it taken the Minister so long to act; and was it just because of the threat of another embarrassing protest on the steps of Parliament next week, like that over the \u201Cfart tax\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265a992bc0c4b48e297a5397a7f05253d\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Multilateral action is not something any country should take lightly. It has never before had to be resorted to by either Australia or New Zealand against each other. Our objective is to get access for our apples, and we have now decided to take a significant step in the World Trade Organization process. Unfortunately, although we appeared to be on the brink of success in 1990, the then incoming National Government let the matter drop and did not reapply until 1999. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb791e9c49549fdb29682780c68cb2e\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Bearing in mind that this question follows many questions by New Zealand First in recent times, can the Minister confirm that he is actually taking this dispute not to the World Trade Organization but only to a committee; and when will he do something about it and take it to the World Trade Organization Dispute Settlement Body immediately? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221261d8eebe36489fa72b56edbb578479\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: To go to the Dispute Settlement Body would be time-consuming and costly. Inscription will be faster. It has worked for us before with other countries. We note that the disputes panel some time ago found in favour of the US in a very similar case it took against Japan, although no apples have yet flowed as a result. A ruling in a subsequent dispute over compliance with that first ruling is expected shortly. This will be an important precedent for litigation between New Zealand and Australia, and the present move will improve our chances of success, should we have to go to that extent ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221728e4376c344a248d96a66fc8499cfa\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that his answer is really no help, at all, to apple growers in New Zealand, because taking this matter just to the Committee on Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures adds another delay in the whole procedure and, inevitably, the Australians will make sure that the matter ends up at the World Trade Organization Dispute Settlement Body; so why do we not take it there now, as all the apple growers of New Zealand are demanding, instead of caving in to the Australians once again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bec9f6af9de4a0193728309c21f8ab1\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to the first question is no, and the answer to the second question is that I have consulted with the leadership of the New Zealand apple industry and it supports the actions being taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022170d8f2bdcf941ad9e474668f4a1a568\u0022\u003ECrimes Act\u2014Repeal of Section 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da933c5431b46f6a021b4c511a61835\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does he still stand by his statement with regard to parental discipline that \u201CThe truth is that the Government is working through the issue and has not yet arrived at a conclusion.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6aade5dad63494ba2c25f143af56c59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6aade5dad63494ba2c25f143af56c59\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do. This Government is concerned to prevent family violence, but Government measures must support parents by giving alternatives to physical discipline, and avoid criminalising ordinary parents who may smack a child. Whether that is best achieved by repealing or amending section 59 is still an open question that can only benefit from debate in the wider public arena. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296c9f6ca78d34c6391ee8d44901eab5b\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile his statement made at the Plunket Society conference over the weekend that the Government does not yet have a policy on repealing section 59 of the Crimes Act, with the Prime Minister\u2019s indication yesterday that she believes it should be repealed; and whom should parents believe on this issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224e611aa6765434bac69e46990a8b649\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has made it clear that that is her personal opinion on the matter. It is clear, as we have been stating for some time, that we chose to invest in parenting programmes, and that we will revisit the issue. As I have mentioned, we are very clear on the notion that Government measures must support parents to provide alternatives to physical discipline, but we want to avoid criminalising ordinary parents who choose to smack a child. And, of course, this issue is best opened to wide public debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3bb80ea10ab4ee8a499291baed331f4\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What initiatives has this Government put in place to prevent family violence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b537ff65044983844c0a3ca2641a73\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Heaps. Family violence is a critical issue for this Government, and we have established a number of policies: the Te Rito Government strategy oversees the policy; $10.8 million for Strategies with Kids\u2014Information for Parents, which is a positive parenting programme; Family Violence Funding Circuit Breaker teams; the community collaborative initiatives fund for prevention of family violence; the Child, Youth and Family Services Everyday Communities programme; New Zealand Family Violence Clearing House; family safety teams; advocates for children witnessing family violence; and a Family Violence Intervention Programme in Work and Income offices from July this year. It is a great deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8d02b3f5c2547d09c72be62fecef389\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that beating children with riding crops and lumps of wood, as allowed by the courts under section 59 of the Crimes Act, is unacceptable in a civilised society, and does he also agree that describing Sue Bradford\u2019s bill as banning smacking is confusing and trivialising the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5f7ccc57ad404d9884881efcb4e6f8\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first question, yes. In answer to the second question, my understanding of Ms Bradford\u2019s bill is that it seeks to repeal section 59 of the Crimes Act, not to ban smacking. I do not know anybody in the House who would want to take that position, but the National Party, for its own purposes, loves being confused and loves confusing the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226800a83c58a544879f706bfd8aeaea16\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022055775488b794fe28770e6e71ebf1816\u0022\u003EMurray Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that simply removing section 59 of the Crimes Act without replacing it with something else, such as my member\u2019s bill provisions, would mean that any parents who physically disciplined their child would be committing a criminal offence; if so, does he consider that people who commit criminal offences are criminals only if they are successfully prosecuted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c3bc2938fb4cd38aa4ea0c2694b35f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not accept the premise of the member\u2019s question. What I think we are up to in this debate is, as I signalled in my answer to the primary question, that no one in the House condones anybody using violence on a child that leads to harm. Everybody in the House wishes to avoid any notion that an ordinary parent smacking a child would end up being criminalised, and therefore the best step forward at the present time is to allow for an open debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e362b655f0942558455037b54e0b2f2\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen reports from the Plunket Society, the Commissioner for Children, the Law Society, and many community groups such as the National Council of Women, the Public Health Association of New Zealand, the Paediatric Society, and now the Families Commissioner, all supporting repeal of section 59 of the Crimes Act, and would he agree that that shows that a wide cross section of middle New Zealand, and groups concerned about the welfare of children and families, support Ms Bradford\u2019s bill to repeal section 59 of the Crimes Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263cfff669f0841fb94a2ae4736cc7567\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think recent opinion polls, as well as that long list, show that public opinion on this matter has changed quite significantly over recent years, and therefore I repeat that I think the position we are in is that people are opposed to physical discipline of children that leads to harm, and they want to avoid criminalisation of ordinary parents who smack their children, and therefore it is time for a wide, open debate about these issues, which all those people have called for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0b967e187f4796b64fb28b6d683173\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that unintended consequences of the member\u2019s bill seeking to repeal section 59 of the Crimes Act mean that an amended version would better serve his Government\u2019s position on this matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220040040a32a7424fba2b1472f96d0e4f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: While members of this Government hold views on this issue, there is no specific policy, because, as we have said, we have chosen to invest in positive parenting programmes and to evaluate those. But we are clear where public opinion lies, and therefore we invite members of the House to allow the wider public to have a view on this matter. It is a matter that requires the input of the public. It is very clear that the parameters of this debate are about avoiding criminalising ordinary parents, and ensuring that children are kept safe. Allow an open debate!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255a37f8fd15547ce8b4e394c3a9012ca\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Government will treat the repeal of section 59 of the Crimes Act as a conscience issue; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b7fd77ce5884d76aac958782e3b53c5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The only bill before this House on this matter is a member\u2019s bill, and it is yet to be decided upon. But I think it would be the view of the Labour members of the House that that bill should go to a select committee, where the public can have a say on the issue, rather than our trying to shut it down as some people seem to want to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bfb6da098a44eceb815bf78d14d5dc6\u0022\u003EMurray Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of my member\u2019s bill, which clarifies the difference between abuse and appropriate physical discipline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e80f2509fde46d2b1d2eb8ab4032397\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document calling for the repeal of section 59 of the Crimes Act, signed by Presbyterian Support New Zealand, Parents Centres New Zealand, and many other groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222764b62c2afb4732b30e5e3572b9a625\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a remit passed by the New Zealand Plunket Society supporting the repeal of section 59 of the Crimes Act, which points out that it provides a legal excuse in cases of serious assault against children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dd39f4edac2405ead3e94e80531e152\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table my member\u2019s bill, which outlaws attacking a child with a secondary implement, and also hitting a child around the head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002222e9201cda51462c9fa7cb6c83157389\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2005/06) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002257883d59e09e439d83cff5c1c9908e61\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82d18975272460ca6aab1126f3093e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82d18975272460ca6aab1126f3093e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2005/06) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002224fdc1755de841d6bb448d55068e09d2\u0022\u003ESupplementary Estimates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229892306792c64e2ab298d3e38a840834\u0022\u003EImprest Supply Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d288604c7482491c95039a3224607332\u0022\u003EImprest Supply Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00222649c89176924179ad06d02a4b96e8c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222649c89176924179ad06d02a4b96e8c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2004/05 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2005/06) Bill be now read a second time. This will be, of course, the last imprest supply bill before the election. It is a good time to place on the record certain key facts. It is a good time to ask some key questions of the desperate and dateless members opposite us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis Government has a proud record, and we are grateful for the support we have received from parties in the House. We have seen economic growth at the highest sustained level for 30-odd years in New Zealand. We have outstripped Australia for 4 years in a row, which the National Government never achieved. We have seen the growth and innovation framework, which is guiding that economic policy. We have seen employment rising, with 260,000 new jobs, the vast majority of which are full-time jobs. We have seen unemployment dropping to record low levels since the modern indices began. We have seen poverty falling for the first time for many years in New Zealand, and that is before the Working for Families package started to come into force in any great sense on 1 April this year. We have seen health spending rise. We have seen mortality rates fall and life expectancy rates rise. We have seen the growth of primary health-care organisations, cheaper doctors\u2019 visits, cheaper pharmaceuticals, and increased operations across the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe have seen a restoration of the level of New Zealand superannuation, which was cut by the National Government in 1999, at the same time that it legislated for a tax cut. One paid for the other then, as it would again in the future under a National Government. We have seen the setting up of the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, which secures the future of New Zealand superannuation, and, finally, the National Party has had to accept that that fund is a permanent part of New Zealand\u2019s public policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe have seen successful industrial relations reform, which has seen record low levels of industrial disputes, and, indeed, underemployed institutions for settling industrial disputes. We have seen the introduction of paid parental leave and so much else. Moving forward we will see the introduction of the KiwiSaver scheme to help average, ordinary, hard-working, battling Kiwis save for their future, their retirement, and their deposit on a first home, and this Labour-led Government is the first party in 30 years to introduce those sorts of measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe will see, on 1 April next year, stage 2 of Working for Families, which will deliver to many two-child, low to middle income working households $30, $40, or $50 a week extra in the hand, which could never be matched by any tax cuts the Opposition can offer. On 1 July next year we will see the introduction of the rates rebate scheme, which will help tens upon tens of thousands of superannuitants pay the rates they struggle with at the present time. We will see, on 1 April next year, the introduction\u2014indeed some of it was on 1 April this year\u2014of business tax changes and the simplification of that scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EFrom members opposite, all we have heard offered against that is one thing: tax cuts. National has become like the ACT party these days. Tax cuts is the answer from the members opposite to everything, from paedophilia to boils on the back, as far as one can tell. How do we solve the problem of too many people being in accident and emergency departments? Give them a tax cut! Give them a tax cut, and they will leave, bleeding but happy\u2014marching into the golden future they will go under a National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe ask now: where is the beef? It has been promised for so long. It is a case of Salome with about 97 veils on, and only five have gone; there are still 92 left to go. Under National, there would be tax cuts by Christmas, then it was by 1 April next year, then it was in 6 or 9 years, then it was for the top end, then it was for the middle, then it was for the top again, then it was for everybody. So it goes on and on in utter confusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWatching Dr Brash against Simon Dallow on Saturday morning was an exercise in elderly confusion. Like an ageing courtesan, the National Party is trying to keep its policy covered up until the lights have gone out, the election is on, and the public cannot really see what is actually underneath. And underlying that policy is a whole set of myths. The first myth is big government. The National Government never got government spending below 32 percent of GDP. It is 30 percent of GDP now. After Working for Families and all the other things, it will rise back to 32 percent of GDP and stay there. Where is this big government that Labour has been putting in place? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe second myth is high tax. Australians have two tax rates above our top tax rate, and tax on top of their higher taxes in terms of Medicare, compulsory superannuation, capital gains tax, stamp duty\u2014and so on, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe third myth is that National can deliver a lot to the ordinary, hard-working Kiwi by means of tax cuts. What would the Australians deliver for the equivalent of a billion dollars or so a year if it was in New Zealand? Six dollars a week! Will that be the big bribe? That will not fill up a billboard, will it? Not even half a billboard would be filled up by $6 a week from the Opposition\u2014and it is not what people are expecting, or have been led to believe, if National were to be elected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ENational is now promising significant tax cuts for all workers. We know what that means. People are expecting about 30 bucks a week from National. National has promised movements in every threshold, and to get back to 5 percent on the top rate means raising the top threshold to $80,000. It has promised to cut the top rate from 39c to 36c. It has promised to cut the company tax rate from 33c to 30c. It has promised to divert all the money out of the Government account, over time, into the National Land Transport Fund. It has promised to scrap the carbon tax. What does that add up to? It adds up to $4 billion a year to start with, rising to $5 billion a year by 2007-08. That is the cost of National\u2019s policy. That cannot be done by simply cutting the number of public servants in Wellington. There are not enough to go around. If we cut the lot of them, there would not be enough left over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe fourth myth is that we can pay for tax cuts next year, and the year after, and the year after, and the year after, with this year\u2019s cash surplus. But this year\u2019s cash surplus will be all gone by 30 June. It has been used to pay off debt. It has gone into the superannuation fund. It has gone here, it has gone there, it has gone everywhere. None of it will be left on 1 July. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESo what will pay for these tax cuts, come a National Government, if it is ever elected? We know the consequences. Firstly, higher interest rates, because that much looser fiscal policy must mean tighter monetary policy, and it must mean higher interest rates. Those hard-working, battling Kiwis will pay more on their mortgage to pay for John Key\u2019s tax cuts. He will be laughing all the way and putting more of his money offshore, as it all is at the present time. He will continue to invest overseas, rather than in the future of this country, as we learnt today in question time. It is pretty obvious what that was all about. The hard-working, battling Kiwi will be the person who has to pay for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ENational would have to cut into core spending. The billboard is right. It is tax, or it is a cut. It is tax or a cut in health; it is tax or a cut in superannuation; it is tax or a cut in education; it is tax or a cut in law and order. That is what the battle is about, as we lead into this election over the next few weeks. Electing a National Government would be the 1990s all over again\u2014cuts, cuts, and cuts to pay for tax cuts for those who are better off. We saw it in 1996, 1998, and 1999. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe real question for New Zealanders is very, very simple. Can they afford National? The answer for the great majority of New Zealanders is very simple. No, they cannot afford National. Only a small minority can afford a National Government. That is why National will not release its policy until the last possible moment. If it is released too soon it will be clear there are holes in the policy, it will be clear it does not add up, it will be clear it will make this country worse off, it will be clear it will make most New Zealanders worse off, and it will be back to the misery and strife of the 1990s under Ruth Richardson and Bill Birch. Bring it on, in 2005, for this election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022005759d01994431885ebddc033b129e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022005759d01994431885ebddc033b129e6\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E What a revealing speech that was from the Minister of Finance in the House this afternoon. The entire Cabinet was whipped to come to the House to listen to his speech on the Appropriation Bill. Government members were desperate to try to give their Minister of Finance some encouragement, because they know a Minister of Finance on the rack when they see one. They were so desperate that they forced the entire Cabinet to come to the House to listen to his speech. About the best thing we can say is that they looked slightly more enthused with that speech than they did with his Budget speech. When Dr Cullen rose on 19 May and read the Budget, the entire Cabinet looked bored. Darren Hughes was out in the lobby, giving No-Doz tablets to back-bench members. It was a disgrace. It was nothing short of a public relations disaster\u2014a public relations disaster that will cause the end of a number of casualties. Mike Munro was not happy that he was not told of this strategy. He was not told what was going on. He was unhappy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d72c0daf4524713bee8f1bd63e86f2f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I want to make it clear that the Government is happy for a 5-minute suspension in the debate to allow there to be more than one National Party MP in the House listening to Mr Key. It is very unfair of his colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022881087f952844bd4b65ed0e06357fa3e\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please be seated. He knows that is not a point of order on which to interrupt a member\u2019s speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722f648f9fc2471a86bab88845ffd6b9\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The truth is that I do not need a whole lot of people to try to prop me up and tell me that I delivered a good Budget when I know it was a bad one. I do not need my mates around me. I am quite confident in what I am doing. I am not the one who is lying in bed at night, wondering how I could have got an available cash surplus of about $4 billion\u2014and we will work our way through those numbers in a moment\u2014and how I could have been so out of touch with the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EMark my words, this Government is on the way out, because it has become arrogant and it is not listening. I was on Newstalk ZB the day after the Budget was delivered, with Michael Cullen. He was asked the hard question. He was asked why there were no tax cuts in the Budget, and he gave this answer: \u201CAccording to our polling, people don\u2019t want them.\u201D That is what happens when a Government is run on the basis of looking backwards at the polls. It forgets what the average, battling mainstream New Zealander cares about. It is not about a bunch of flaky policies and programmes that the Government is dreaming up, with thousands of bureaucrats, left, right, and centre; it is about real New Zealanders not being forced to line up in queues at Work and Income, to be turned into beneficiaries. When Michael Cullen can come to the House and tell New Zealand families why they have to pay the top personal rate of taxation, at 39c in the dollar, and at the same time ask them to line up at Work and Income, then he will be able to answer a question that at the moment they are scratching their heads over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe Budget was an absolute disaster. The \u201Cdeep, dark secret\u201D that Mike Williams went out and told New Zealanders about was meant to be some great tax cut. Mike Williams knows that. He has tried to argue, through his Minister of Finance, that it was the KiwiSaver. Last time I looked, I do not think the Labour Government would like to hear what Mike Williams thinks the KiwiSaver scheme is. He thinks it is a dirty, dark Tory secret. Mike Williams was trying to do one thing, and that was to pump up this Budget\u2014to pump up the fact that there was some sort of tax cut. The truth of it is that there was no tax cut. The people of New Zealand know what the \u201Cdeep, dark secret\u201D is; they absolutely know. It is that under this Labour Government, for as long as Labour is in office, there will never be a tax cut. That is why the people are rejecting Labour, and that is why they will reject it come election day. It does not matter whether the election is in July, or August, or September. This lot will be gone, because the people of New Zealand are sick and tired of a bunch of bureaucrats being employed while their families\u2019 belts are being tightened, because the Government wants to go out and spend their money, thinking it can do so on their behalf. That is the truth of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe \u201Cdeep, dark secret\u201D is that there will never be a tax cut under Labour. If it cannot afford a cut when there is an available cash surplus of around $4 billion, when there is an operating balance excluding revaluations and accounting changes of $7.4 billion for the second year in a row, just tell me the conditions under which we can have a tax cut. There never ever will be one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that is out of control. Every time I get up and talk about the number of bureaucrats who have been hired in Wellington, the Minister of State Services wants to stand up and say that I am somehow deluded, that I must be wrong, and that no extra bureaucrats have been hired. Answer me this question: if they are all the same people who are being transferred in from other Government departments, if they are already on the payroll, then why has the amount of commercial real estate that the Government has taken here in Wellington gone from 360,000 square metres to over 500,000 square metres in the last 5 years? Tell me why the core State sector has gone up from 30,000 to at least 38,000, if not more. Tell me why Treasury is writing to the Government, to tell it that its policies are out of control, that 80 percent of Government departments have been hiring, recklessly, that there is no increase in productivity, and that there will have to be cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ELast Friday, Treasury put on its website the Budget discussion document. I urge people to read that document. It states quite clearly that Labour\u2019s policies are not working, that reprioritisation has to take place, and that cuts have to happen. That is the advice coming from Treasury, not just once to the State sector but also in the Budget advice document. Mark my words, there was a reason for a lot of people coming down to the Chamber to listen to Michael Cullen this afternoon, and it had nothing to do with the quality of his speech or of the outcome; it had to do with the fact that this Government has got it so horribly wrong, and the polls it is seeing internally are telling it that it is the end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EGovernment members shake their heads. That is exactly why they are in trouble. They are in denial. We know that the NBR poll has been done by UMR pollsters. We know that UMR has been on the phone to the Prime Minister and to Michael Cullen. We know that in today\u2019s New Zealand Herald there was just a hint that maybe Dr Michael Cullen might be forced to bring forward those indexation changes. We know when the Minister of Finance is in serious trouble. We know that this is not the confident Michael Cullen who ruled the Chamber, that this is a Michael Cullen who is under pressure. I have said many times before that when Michael Cullen was given the portfolio of Attorney-General it was the straw that broke the camel\u2019s back\u2014and boy, did we not see that on Budget day when he made such a hash! He has argued that the available cash is $2.4 billion. Well, what does he argue is the $700 million in cash that he is giving to the Reserve Bank? Is that a consumption item? Why does he include $723 million of student loans that have been repaid at over the Government bond rate? There are billions and billions of dollars of cash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe Minister came into the House and told us that New Zealanders should feel good, because they pay less tax than Australians. He does not understand\u2014and he should, because he is the Minister of Revenue\u2014that New Zealand has a broad-base low rate of taxation. That means that people in New Zealand can deduct virtually nothing from their income, whereas for people in Australia there are many, many deductions before they get there. A few weeks before the Budget I asked Michael Cullen in this House what he thought of the Australian Budget from Peter Costello and what he would do to match a situation where Australia will attract bright, young, hard-working entrepreneurial people. He stood in the House and answered that we should be happy, because in Australia 80 percent of people will face a top personal rate of 30c in the dollar and, somehow, in New Zealand, it is a great thing that 75 percent of people will face a top personal rate of 21c in the dollars. That tells us just how out of touch Michael Cullen is. What he has just told the people of New Zealand is that it is a good thing that 80 percent of Australians earn $70,000, or less, and a good thing that 75 percent of New Zealanders earn $38,000, or less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ENational does not believe that earning $38,000, or less, is as good as it gets. We do believe in increasing the pie. We do not believe in redistribution. We do believe in those good old-fashioned principles that have made New Zealand go forward\u2014in taking the opportunity to tell New Zealanders that they can keep more of what they earn and that we will join with them as a Government and share the upside and the good times. Michael Cullen is a finance manager and a Minister of Finance who has proved he wants to balance the books on the revenue side. There will be more Labour speeches and more Labour cronies sitting in those seats\u2014and boy will Labour need them when it is under so much pressure!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022 data-id=\u00221fd87255117f4c8aa3dae31a59c8b6ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fd87255117f4c8aa3dae31a59c8b6ac\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Grow Up Free From Poverty report was commissioned last January, and nobody knew just how many people were falling through the gaps in international aid. Major charities wanted to know how children, often the worst casualties of poverty, saw their own situations. Children in 18 developing countries reported that they did not see enough of their parents. Stigmatised by AIDS or disability, many knew that their best hope of living was in the sex trade. The biggest problem was their parents\u2019 alcoholism and, according to the report, that was at the top of the agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EWhat is happening in New Zealand\u2014a developed nation, supposedly? We have an accident and emergency department without a hospital, or it could be the other way around; we have a hospital without an accident and emergency department. We have families who are suffering, children without parental guidance, and Government departments unskilled to carry out the responsibilities placed before them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EI quote from the Sunday Star-Times of 12 June: \u201CCYF alerted before baby died. Family, nurses, lawyers, and a doctor raised concerns about the treatment of 7-month-old Kathleen Harris-Talivai.\u201D There has been famine and poverty in many parts of the world, but here in New Zealand it is becoming all too common that physical abuse beyond description is part of what happens every day. How can a Child, Youth and Family Services worker advise that the child in question would be better off with his or her parents, when there is evidence before the worker that the child is being physically abused? Why does it have to be like this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EThe social policies of this Government have a part to play in what is happening in our communities. In speaking to a high-profile identity of the Ng\u0101ti Porou iwi, it was stated that many of our people have lost the work ethic, and along with that have come the negative results of idleness. Family as we understand it\u2014father, mother, and children\u2014are starting to become an issue that is fading into the sunset, and other agendas are coming to the fore. The reason why there is instability in our society is that there is a lack of good parenting skills, and the social engineering of this Government has contributed much to that agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EThe elderly have been neglected, especially those who have served our nation in the armed forces. This Government will give aid offshore, but no consideration will be given to 35 servicemen in the Montecillo Veterans Home and Hospital in Dunedin. The Agent Orange debacle is still unclear and there is still no result as to what compensation should be given. The last words I heard from the Montecillo veteran were these: \u201CRemind the Governments\u201D\u2014and that includes National and Labour\u2014\u201Cof their promises that they made to us when we returned from the war.\u201D What were those promises? They were that the veterans would be taken care of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003ELet me remind this Government again: $10 billion given to the armed forces works out at less than 1 percent, and we still have a skeleton armed forces programme running. How can that be, when defence should at the top of the agenda for any country and every country, especially the democratic nations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2d7488c9a834daf93b9f8f3def7e1ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2d7488c9a834daf93b9f8f3def7e1ea\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In the grand speech made by the Minister of Finance he asked the question whether New Zealanders can afford National. The real question he should have asked was: \u201CCan we afford Labour yet again?\u201D. The answer from New Zealand First is: \u201CAbsolutely no; we cannot.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance covered the various issues that he sees as the components of his platform, forgetting absolutely that in 1999 this Government inherited a very stable rural and farming economy, and that nothing Labour has done since then has added one whit\u2014perhaps a few months of help to Fonterra. That is the backbone it inherited. Looking at it from the rural economy point of view, 6 frittered away and wasted years is that proud Government\u2019s record. No wonder the Minister was so voluble, making grand statements about the future; he did that on the backbone of frittered years, when this Government has had, in terms of the land-use economies, the best years that I can remember for a decade and a half, if not more. At the end of that time, all we have seen are wasted time and wasted policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EBut let us come back to the central, core issue, which is this. Last week the most amazing announcement was made by the Minister of Education that the head of the Education Review Office was taking 4 months\u2019 leave to oversee the exam system for the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. What an indictment on that Government\u2019s proud record\u2014as espoused by the Minister of Finance\u2014that, as we speak, an officer has to go from one Government department, supposedly concerned with the audit and review of education, somehow to bring some sort of sensibility to the New Zealand Qualifications Authority! What an indictment! What confidence in our Government does that give our young students, who are halfway through the examination year? It is absolutely deplorable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EBut it is no wonder, because that is the sort of thing I see happening throughout the education portfolio. The Ministry of Education has people beavering away in the back room\u2014the bureaucratic army that John Key talked about\u2014putting together key competencies to overturn the traditional framework of education that the secondary school system has had for the past decade. People are beavering away to put together social, key competencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWhat would one expect, therefore, of an agency such as the Teachers Council, which is empowered by the Education Standards Act 2001 to have certain key duties? One such duty is to determine the standards for teacher registration and the issue of practising certificates. That is meant to be the prime aim of the functions of the Teachers Council. As well, it is to develop a code of ethics for teachers. One would expect that the Ministry of Education would have some ability, therefore, to go ahead and implement the intended changes to the Teachers Council, which came from the Teacher Registration Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EI can report to the House that that is an abysmal failure. It is not just that three separate heads have resigned, and been given good payouts in the process. A year ago I raised these matters at the Education and Science Committee, where I was assured by Ministry of Education officials that the actual functions of the Teachers Council were working. So the House will be surprised to hear that the supplementary estimates do not have any additional votes for the Teachers Council, to try to establish\u2014which it has not done so far\u2014and maintain its function of leadership in the education sector, and also to carry out the simple process of teacher registration. That system is just not working as it ought to. Is it very surprising to me, therefore, to be able to tell the House that the Teachers Council has not functioned in any way as designed by legislation? There are people out there in front of classrooms who do not hold even limited authority to teach. There are people in front of our young children today who have not been registered in any form at all. There are teachers who were registered but are no longer registered. The whole system has failed dismally\u2014that is, the Teachers Council\u2019s monitoring of educational standards and enhancement of the teaching profession, as outlined in the Act, and as mentioned several times by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ETherefore, all the good words I hear about the education sector\u2014all the trial projects, the short-term funding, all the issues about raising the standard of teaching\u2014have failed. Teachers are still the most important part of the school area. All the aids are but a supplement to having a sound, effective teacher in front of a classroom. At the present time, this Government has failed. It has failed with regard to a supply of competent teachers. It has failed with regard to teacher registration and competence. Unfortunately, and most of all, it has failed the young people of today. As I said last week, youngsters are asking the Government to give them assurance. No such assurance can be given by the Minister of Finance with regard to his Budget, or by the Minister of Education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002221283530f54f49fbb8ec3308a58437ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221283530f54f49fbb8ec3308a58437ce\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Like most members in the House, I am pleased to take part in the debate on the Appropriation (2004/05 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and Imprest Supply (First for 2005/06) Bill because, if there is one thing that defines why we are here, it is this particular debate. It is the debate where we get to talk about how taxpayers\u2019 money will be spent. It means we are charged at this time to say how we have sensibly applied their money to the kinds of issues that make a difference to New Zealanders. After all, the whole point of collecting tax is that it is impossible for individual citizens\u2014and perhaps the richest amongst us have learnt that it is even impossible for them\u2014to be able to buy their own hospitals, lay down their own roads, run their own schools, or do all the myriad of things that taxpayers\u2019 money is raised for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThis is the dividing line between the left and right in politics. On the right, people want less and less money because they personally have more and, therefore, they can do more for themselves. As we move into the \u201Caverage person\u201D category, they realise that if they do not make a contribution through the taxation, they will not get the kinds of things that allow them to educate their kids, keep them healthy, keep them housed, keep them fed, and get them a job, and do all the things that go with a civilised society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThis election will be very much about that dividing line, whereby people come down on the side of how much we will apply to those issues of collective concern and how much we will return to those who already have privilege. \u201CPrivilege\u201D, as far as the National Party and the ACT party are concerned, is its own reward. The more one has the more one will get, under the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EGiven that background of why this debate is important, I want to applaud Dr Cullen\u2019s Budget. I think it was the kind of Budget that said: \u201CNo, this intends to be a long-term Government.\u201D It says that we are going to carry on responsibly applying the money we raised from taxpayers to issues that are of concern to them. And what a record! There are 6 years of achievement behind Dr Cullen\u2019s administration of those taxes. He is able to point to growth in every single year, above that of the OECD average. He can point to more paid jobs than ever in the history of this country. He can point to having an unemployment rate that is at the head of the OECD\u2014that is, 3.9 percent. The only country with a rate lower than ours is Korea at 3.8 percent. Fewer people are now on a benefit, by hundreds of thousands, than there used to be in this country. I will come back to that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThere has been continual investment in issues that matter to New Zealanders, and in this Budget Dr Cullen has said that he wants to maintain a strong and credible fiscal stance. In other words, he wants to balance the books, make sure the chequebook is in good shape, and ensure we can pay our way forward so that we do not go back to booming and busting the economy, as was done under previous administrations. We will make sure we can pay our own way. Dr Cullen wants to be fair. He wants to include New Zealanders in the good things that are happening. He wants to ensure that every single Kiwi has a stake in this country and that Kiwis know they can get into a house, afford their education, and have a future here as working New Zealanders, and he wants to build the conditions for growth. What a change! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EDr Cullen wants to build the conditions for growth, as opposed to what we saw from 1972 to 1998, when incomes were dropping. People in this country had become so used to things going down, they wondered if they could ever go up. Since then they have. The conditions for growth have been set in place, and this Budget is about that. There are no bribes, no rush of blood to the head, and no saying that we will do things that we cannot sustain into the future. This Budget is about carrying on laying the foundations for long-term Government, long-term growth, long-term prosperity, and long-term social justice in this country. That is what this Budget was about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003ENow, I have to say that in my portfolios I am delighted at what we are doing. In the social development area, I have no doubt that this Budget will do more for people who are on a benefit, but it will also make the debate around beneficiaries even more difficult for National Party members. They can fudge and they can change the figures, but in the end they will have to face the fact that Dr Brash used to say, in his querulous way, that the National Party will get the number of people on benefits down from 500,000. Then, unfortunately for him, he discovered the number was not 500,000; he was including superannuitants. So he had to stop doing that, because he did not want to be caught out on that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EDr Brash then said that National would get the number of people on benefits below 400,000. But, unfortunately for him, we have got it below 400,000. So he used to say\u2014and I notice in the newspaper today he is still saying it\u2014that National will get it below 300,000. He says it in that querulous, baloney-led way of his. I have news for him! There are 298,000 beneficiaries now. The number is below 300,000. The number of working-age people on a benefit right now is 298,000. He says that he will lower that figure in 10 years. He says he will take that figure of 298,000\u2014although I am sure it will be lower by the time we have an election, because it keeps dropping\u2014and reduce it by 100,000 in 10 years. That is 10,000 a year. He could do that by doing nothing. Does National have a policy or not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWhat is the point of the National Party policy, which is so ambitious that the National Party promises a drop over 10 years, whereby in 5 years we have taken the number from a little over 400,000 to 298,000? Those are the kind of promises one makes when one is 64 years old. Don Brash will be 74 by the time that promise matures\u2014he will be living in Trinidad or somewhere by then, on his gains from the Reserve Bank. So that is not a promise, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EIn the jobs area, National tells us that it would get more people into jobs, against this Government\u2019s record that shows more people are employed than ever. Don Brash will have more people in employment than ever, when we have more than ever in employment. We have fewer people on benefits\u2014we have a 3.9 percent unemployment rate. We have a superb record on this. Who believes anybody else would do better than this Government has, after it was left with the deficit of the 1990s? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EDon Brash says he will fire people who are in the public service. Let us put aside nurses and let us put aside teachers whom he might have to get rid of\u2014let us put aside all those people and just talk about core public servants. When I got my job in the tertiary education area, I asked the Ministry of Education, under the National Government, to send me the people who were doing industry training so I could talk about the rebirth of modern apprenticeships with them. Bill Birch had cancelled apprenticeships in 1992 and we had a major problem: we did not have people being trained. So I asked the ministry to send across the people doing the training. One very thin man turned up in my office to inform me that he spent a quarter of his time on industry training. It is no wonder that there was no Modern Apprenticeships scheme. It is no wonder that there was nothing going on in industry training. It is no wonder that we had a deficit in the people trained to do our skills in our factories. It was because there was nobody in the National Government\u2014nobody in its bureaucracy\u2014who was employed to do anything about training. That is why we have a deficit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003ETraining cannot be left to the market; if one wants apprentices, everybody has to pitch in and do something about it. We do need at least one whole person to get up each day, and say: \u201CMy job is to do something about training.\u201D\u2014at least one! To have a quarter of a person working on it is a bit low. But that is what National wants to do. It wants to take the public service back to the days when it could do nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EResearch, science, and technology are the driving forces of innovation in this country. Funding has increased by 56 percent since this Government came to power back in 1999. That is the single biggest increase in that budget in the history of funding for science, research, and technology. Is anybody against that? Does anybody think that is wrong? Does anybody want to say that we should not be driving innovation through science? Does anybody want to have those kinds of things cut\u2014apart from Tariana Turia, who does not believe in science anyway? Is anybody against that kind of thing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWhat about housing? The KiwiSaver project and the mortgage insurance scheme are getting first home buyers into homes. What about building State houses, lowering the cost of housing, and all the innovative partnerships we have running with Abbeyfield and other community groups who are building houses across this country\u2014is anybody against that kind of spending at all? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI ask members to look at broadcasting. Is anybody against the notion that we should have an independent culture in this country and a strong screen production centre where we are able to produce programmes, films, and television about ourselves that create jobs and create pride? That is why young people like this country these days. They love the notion that they can get a job, have a future, and get an education, and that they live in the kind of exciting country we get from the cultural policies we have been investing in. Can members imagine Don Brash investing in something that might lead to a CD\u2014if he knows what a CD is? That simply will not happen with someone as boring and as out of date as Dr Brash, who would not know Shihad from Pacifier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222baccd82fb9645479d7de0bcad115aed\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Neither would Helen Clark!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a72984a3bb4ea9bf959105465af3cf\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Rich knows who Pacifier is, which is good. Helen Clark would know who Pacifier are; actually, she knows them personally. This is the debate that divides this House\u2014on this side we will invest in this country; on that side they will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00226e2ccb3016a94cd4b751c08db81bf956\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e2ccb3016a94cd4b751c08db81bf956\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E For the benefit of anyone who is still listening at the end of that speech, I will say it was from Steve Maharey\u2014the smarmy one, as described by his former ministerial colleague John Tamihere. I remember John Tamihere telling the nation that he went to meetings with the smarmy one and was given copious notes, but when he came out they did not add up to anything\u2014there was no substance. We saw that with Steve Maharey in his speech today. We heard Mr Maharey talk about the Budget as being a good use of money and talk about the results of that. We saw last week the human face of Labour\u2019s health policy, and we saw the response from Labour when confronted with the human face of its failed health policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet me remind members what that response was. A man with Huntington\u2019s disease was in pain, and when he went to the dentist he was unable to get his teeth attended to. He was stuck on a waiting list for more than a year. That was the promise of the health waiting system\u2014to wait more than a year, because his case was said to be semi-urgent. Wellington Hospital told him that there were people in far more pain than him, and that he should be happy to wait a year. When that case was raised in the House, we saw the response of the caring Minister of Health. Her response was to get the man\u2019s records and say that he was not in pain! Well, that was news to him. That was news to his mum. [Interruption] The Minister of Health laughs now. She thinks that is funny, because she got away with it. Then she told the House that the man had gone to his dentist on a routine check-up. Well, that was not true, and the Minister now knows it was not true. The man went to the dentist because he had toothache, and he had to wait a year to get it attended to in her health system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat has happened now? The Minister met with the man\u2019s mother in her office. She got home, and suddenly someone from our health system was on the phone, wanting to see Alvin to look at his teeth, and, yes, he has a date. Why? It is because Annette King was embarrassed. But the sad thing about it is that Alvin is just one of 180\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddbe731c5ac74cdb9b29124aa45621e4\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: The member would just say \u201CGo private.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b76badbd8cb40559226da9356bb6ee5\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The member they refer to in the Labour caucus\u2014I am sure in a kind and endearing way\u2014as \u201Cpaint stripper\u201D or \u201Cfish wife\u201D yells out, because she does not want to hear about people and the results of the Government\u2019s health policy. Why does she not just listen and try to help people, for a change? The problem is that we got help for Alvin, but 180,000 people are queued up on our health waiting lists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet me walk through the numbers in this Budget. In 1999 the health budget was $6.1 billion. It is now $9.7 billion. It has increased\u2014[Interruption] Jill Pettis yells out about how marvellous that is, because, being a lefty, she thinks that spending money is a good thing as long as it is other people\u2019s money. Health spending has increased by $3.6 billion a year, or 57 percent. One might say: \u201CWow, I bet that bought a lot of operations.\u201D The figures show that we have increased the number of operations by 1.3 percent. Let us think about it. Annette King has increased the health budget by 57 percent, to increase the number of operations by 1.3 percent. What a useless Minister of Health she is. And members should get this: the number of New Zealanders has increased by 4.3 percent, so the number of operations per capita has gone backwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBack in 1999, Annette King said that the waiting list of 96,000 was criminal. Now she does not release the numbers. We have had to work for\u2014[Interruption] The Minister looks up. She knows that is a fact. We have had to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b6e9913be948f8aace14650c9db68e\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755a45d7439f4e0093fbc432cd674722\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can call out that I am lying. We have the dose on her, because she has, in this House. The waiting list was 96,000. The budget was increased by $3.6 billion, but what has happened to the health waiting list? It has blown up to 180,000. The number of people on the waiting list has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a69de21b5f344b88552cd8fc9c8b725\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257025b1deec14fce8f4c8ce79c32d076\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Annette King calls out that that is rubbish. We know why that is. It is because people now have to wait in order to get on to the waiting list. That is the reality of health under Annette King. She still cannot get over the fact that a man with toothache cannot get a $5,000 operation in our health system without waiting at least a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe number of people who died while on our health waiting lists was 850 in 1999. Last year, under Annette King, 1,200 people died on our health waiting lists. Annette King sits there and laughs. She knows the numbers, and she should not be laughing at them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe5b28db64a4df4b499d400d682fc7f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am quite happy to sit here and listen to that drivel, but I will not have that member say that I am laughing at the comments he is making. It is certainly true that I would laugh at him, but not at the comments he is making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a59fda4cb3f42beb68f3e57479a7ed5\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232982761641843f68fc6db21467d9c84\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can sit there and\u2014she has admitted it\u2014laugh through her speech about the failure of her policy, laugh at the people who are queued up in pain, and laugh about people having to wait in order to get on the waiting list. Treasury itself says that the Minister is out of control. We have the report. It states that the Minister has blown the budget and that health spending is unsustainable. I have never seen a report like it. Treasury advised Michael Cullen to go back to Annette King and tell her to redo the numbers, because her priorities were wrong and the Budget was under stress. We have seen the wasteful spending\u2014$3.6 billion has been spent on health, with no result. More people are waiting than ever before, and more are upset with the health system than ever before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThen we have the prospect of tax cuts. Mike Williams told the people of New Zealand that there was a deep, dark secret in the Budget, and when I went into the lock-up, I found it. It was a tax cut of $34. I thought wow, that was not bad for someone in the 20c in the dollar tax-rate range. Then I looked at it again. I had thought the tax cut was $34 per week, but it turned out that it was $34 per year\u2014a packet of Wrigley\u2019s chewing gum per week. Then I read a bit more, and found that the cut would not occur until 2008. So people will receive a packet of chewing gum as a tax cut, but they will have to wait 3 years for it under Labour. Michael Cullen says that he cannot afford tax cuts. I say to Michael Cullen, Annette King, and Clayton Cosgrove that New Zealanders cannot afford to keep paying their tax. They cannot afford to fund w\u0101nanga, hip-hop tours, and million-dollar grants to rich American companies. They cannot afford to keep paying that tax and make ends meet. That is the situation in this Budget that we are voting on. Currently, the Government\u2019s spending total is $53 billion per year. In the next 5 years it is set to grow, according to Michael Cullen, to $73 billion per year. That is 45 percent faster than the rate the economy is growing at. This Government is forecasting Government spending to grow 45 percent faster than the rate the economy will grow at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI look at this figure. When we are thinking about what the Government can and cannot afford, the key figure to look at is the net wealth of the Government. Currently, the net wealth of the Government is $35.5 billion. That is the figure when we take all the assets the Government has and deduct all the liabilities. Our Government is solvent and is worth $35.5 billion. Over the next 5 years our Government\u2019s net worth will be $63.1 billion. This Government is a rich Government. It is accumulating wealth at the expense of New Zealanders. The wealth of the Government is increasing at an astonishing $5.5 billion per year, which, interestingly, matches the maximum cost of ACT\u2019s tax policy. If we just held the net wealth of the Government constant, we could pay for ACT\u2019s policy. The net wealth of the Government is going up at the rate of 12 percent. That is all news to Clayton Cosgrove. He sits on the Finance and Expenditure Committee and is the only person who, I noticed when I was on the committee, could sleep while in the chair. It is unbelievable to watch. He actually does not follow anything that goes on in those debates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s wealth is growing by $5.5 billion per year. We can afford tax cuts. I say that the people of New Zealand cannot afford to keep paying for this Government and for the wasteful spending that we see. That is why they will give their party vote to ACT at the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b711299ff5e74e93b68b9555b381a634\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b711299ff5e74e93b68b9555b381a634\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E If anybody wants to upset Labour right now, he or she need only mention the media\u2019s and the public\u2019s reaction to the Budget. Mike Williams made it incredibly difficult for the Labour Party, I have to say, by going around various meetings in Auckland and around the country, and by giving interviews saying that in the Budget was a deep, dark secret. It was so deep that very few people could ascertain what it was when they first went through the Budget documents\u2014or could not find it, at all. When it transpired that the deep, dark secret was 67c in 3 years\u2019 time, was it any wonder that the New Zealand public shrugged their shoulders and asked: \u201CIs that it? Is that as good as it gets?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders understand, having just had the best economic conditions in a generation, that they should be in a position whereby they can get something back for their work\u2014something back for the hard work they have done over the last 6 or so years. Michael Cullen, as the Minister of Finance, has had the best economic conditions that many Ministers have faced in a long time. If we are not able to have tax cuts after those sorts of conditions, the question most Kiwis are asking is when they can ever be relieved of some of the burden of tax. Members on that side of the House said that no more taxes would be imposed except on a few who earned over $60,000 per year. More taxes have been levied on New Zealanders over the last short period of time than have been levied on most generations prior to the last 6 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIf we cannot afford a tax cut now, when will we ever be able to afford one? That is a key issue and the key question on the lips of many New Zealanders. That is the reason, I suppose, that the Budget was not well received by the general public. I am not talking about the wealthy\u2014which the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance seem to think is anybody who earns over $38,000 per year\u2014but about those hard-working Kiwis, the bulk of our citizens, who earn less than that and who want something more in their pockets at the end of the week. They are the people who pay for everything. They do not have a community services card. They pay for everything and face the increasing costs of petrol, Nana\u2019s sherry, and carbon emissions tax. They are paying for absolutely everything and getting nothing back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWell, we on this side of the House do not think that people earning $38,000 per annum are wealthy. We do not think that people earning $60,000 per annum are wealthy. If we look at our own communities, we will find doctors, nurses, some teachers, and police who earn over $60,000 and who are now caught in that top tax rate. We do not see those people as being the wealthy elite. If we think that those people who earn $60,000 should front up to Work and Income New Zealand to get some kind of handout, then there is little future for our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis bill does not set aside money to fix the tax problem we have in this country. This bill will not give New Zealanders more than just 67c in 3 years\u2019 time. This bill will not set aside money to fix the current problems with the police, which basically leave some Kiwis ringing 111 and getting a cab, not a cop. This bill and this Budget will not fix the current debacle with the National Certificate of Educational Achievement and New Zealand Scholarship. It will not give any relief to hard-working families\u2014the families who get up every day and go to work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec69a01da766441aa86331fd6f236638\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Working for Families package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1afed87db23443690e50dbcb1074a4b\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not interesting that Ms Pettis is now talking about the Working for Families package? That was last year\u2019s story. Labour has dredged it up\u2014understanding that its Budget has fallen as flat as a pancake\u2014to try to make things a bit better when it argues in front of Kiwis who say that its Budget has been such a disappointment to most Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe have seen an extra $3.5 billion spent on health. We have seen a whole lot of spending in other areas as well, but we have seen little gain. It was interesting to hear Michael Cullen in the Chamber take credit for good weather, good commodity prices, good economic conditions, and good employment numbers, when that member over there knows that the good conditions we have faced have, frankly, had nothing to do with this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262466aff7de74db6807ef2c9fb87ef72\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: One hundred and thirty million dollars has nothing to do with the weather.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d08ecb9944774740a41030e0813dff6d\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Is it any wonder that Michael Laws of Wanganui says he has some nutters in his town, when Jill Pettis sits over there and makes such inane comments? Labour thinks that for a person to be wealthy, he or she must earn more than $38,000 per year. Well, I can say that we on this side of the House have bigger and better dreams and aspirations for this country. When Kiwis are earning $38,000 per year and the Government\u2019s answer is to make them front up to Work and Income New Zealand to get a handout, then I do not think the Government is asking the right questions. The answer is not further entrenching welfare dependency in this country; the answer is helping people to be independent. Working for Families will provide relief for only about 14,000 extra families who were not already caught up in the welfare system, and I do not think that that is something to crow about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b8693bf198464199f4cd89b4fdd8c3\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Spin, spin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3e82d5d64384f348b7244d7926d672e\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Members on that side might say: \u201CSpin, spin.\u201D, but they are the ones who are spinning. They are the ones who are facing Mike Munro, deeply concerned about the way the spin was handled when it came to the Budget. It is members on that side of the House who are angry that they were let down by Michael Cullen after being told that everything would be all right. They were told: \u201CKeep quiet, boys and girls. There\u2019s going to be something in the Budget that will keep all your punters happy.\u201D, and it did not happen. Sixty-seven cents in 3 years\u2019 time\u2014I bet that will go down well in Gisborne! When those members are standing on the hustings and talking about what Labour is promising, that will not go down terribly well. Mr Hide said it was enough to buy a packet of chewing gum. Actually, it is not. A packet of chewing gum costs 70c. With 67c, one would have to wait till the next year to have enough to get a packet of chewing gum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESome of the other ideas the Government has talked about today did not catch the imagination of New Zealanders, either. They fell asleep at talk of the KiwiSaver programme. Their eyes glazed over when they were told about the deal for first home buyers. When one looks at the deal for first home buyers, one realises that one would have to buy a house that was so cheap that many Kiwis probably would not want to live in it anyway, and one cannot buy houses for the value that allows one to qualify. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe Budget has been a deep disappointment to the Labour Party, and Labour members know that. They can sit there and smile, point, and carry on, but they know they do not have anything to go out and sell on the hustings, and that their people are just as disappointed. It is interesting that Michael Cullen said that the reason there was not much more in the Budget was that the Government\u2019s own polling said that tax was not an issue. It just goes to show how decisions are made in this country right now that if a poll indicates that something is wanted or not wanted, that is the way this Government makes its decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E It is interesting that Michael Cullen said that tax was not an issue, yet post-Budget it was one of the major issues of interest to this country. Kiwis are finding it harder to get by as they spend more at the petrol pump and spend more on their petrol and more on their goods and services\u2014all taxes and levies from a Government that said that it would not raise any taxes or additional levies. So I think Labour has quite some explaining to do. Instead of talking about what the National Party will do, Government members should stand up and say why they are so excited about their Budget and why they think it is a vision for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201121801d0254ecb9c207cd9cf32d8d4\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: They have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef812f288bf446ffa32d2ed857c28f44\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: No, they have not. They have stood up and talked about the National Party, which I think demonstrates a deep sensitivity and a deep understanding of what the problem is. We on this side of the House are delighted that the Government has fallen flat on its face with a Budget that has not excited anybody at all, because it allows us to demonstrate a difference in terms of what National will be offering at the coming election. Kiwis will see through what the Labour Government is offering. It is all about spin. Government members are deeply disappointed. They might be pretending that they are as happy as sandboys, but we know they are disappointed with what Michael Cullen has delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u002250ee8a08374d42dba4d87cd1fe9da471\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250ee8a08374d42dba4d87cd1fe9da471\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb7c1740f4e44c5b06018cd704304ce\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t talk about oil!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3acae25abf74caabf5120cd87ac93ca\u0022\u003EROD DONALD\u003C/span\u003E: I will be talking about oil. I thank Mr Cosgrove for reminding me. I will talk about it later, so I ask the member to be patient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EToday we are talking about the supplementary estimates and we are also debating an Imprest Supply Bill. That imprest supply bill will give the Government the money it needs to run the country if an election is held before the Budget is passed. This year I am confident that the Budget will pass its third reading before the House rises for the general election, in the same way that 3 years ago I was confident that the Government would pull the plug before the Budget was passed. In fact, just before the supplementary estimates debate started 3 years ago, Prime Minister Helen Clark told the whole country that we would have a snap election. That was on 11 June 2002. At that point we knew what was ahead of us. We had an election date, and I wish Helen Clark would give us the same courtesy now and set an election date. But I would have to say that she did not need to call a snap election on 11 June 2002, and she certainly does not need to call one now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI would like to look back briefly over the last 3 years at the Government\u2019s report card in relation to the debate that took place on 11 June 2002. Labour has passed some good legislation in some crucial areas, but it is interesting to see what it has not advanced. On that date in 2002, the Marine Reserves Bill was waiting for its first reading in Parliament. It got that first reading after the election, thanks to support from the Green Party, but it still languishes at the Local Government and Environment Committee, because the Government is more interested in advancing legislation on marine farming than it is in marine reserves. We call on the Government\u2014Mr Cosgrove may be leaving the Chamber; I hope he will stay and hear what I have to say about peak oil. The Marine Reserves Bill is still stuck in the select committee, because Labour lacks a serious commitment to increasing the number and area of marine reserves in New Zealand. We have to contrast its dragging the chain on conservation with its pushing ahead on economic growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EAnother bill that was held up by the snap election was the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill. The Greens supported it. The Minimum Wage Amendment Bill is another example of legislation United Future has opposed in this Parliament, but we are very pleased to give our support to Labour on such legislation, because we are just as committed to social justice as we are to protecting the environment and making the economy sustainable. It is good that the minimum wage does continue to increase. It is now $9.50 an hour\u2014a lot more than when National was last in power. But it is not enough. It is not good enough. New Zealand workers deserve at least $12 an hour, because without that level of income one simply cannot bring up a family in any sense of decency. I know that most New Zealanders would rather get a wage that is enough to live on than have to rely on family support or any other Government handout. So we advocated for that legislation, and we made some progress there. We advocated for the transfer of undertakings, and that legislation has finally managed to get through in the last 3 years. In fact, 17 bills passed in this term of Parliament have passed only because of support from the Green Party. Those bills simply would not be law without it. There would be no Supreme Court, no M\u0101ori Television Service, no Care of Children Act, no Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act, no Climate Change Response Act, and so on, without the support of the Green Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThe Government has certainly learnt a lot in the last 3 years, and those pieces of legislation are examples of what it has learnt. The Labour-Progressive minority Government has done a very good job of managing this House. As an advocate of MMP, I would like to give it credit for that. Despite having only 53 seats out of 120, it has successfully mustered a majority for most of its legislation by turning to a number of parties for support. United Future has been the only party to vote for two Budgets\u2014because Labour was intransigent on genetic engineering and therefore did not enjoy our confidence\u2014and seven other bills have passed only because of United Future. As I said, the Greens are responsible for the passage of 17 bills, and New Zealand First was the only non-Government party to vote for the Foreshore and Seabed Bill. We got a warning in the last term of Parliament, when Labour relied on New Zealand First for the passage of two bills, both of which have turned to custard in various ways. So members should look out for what will happen to the Foreshore and Seabed Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E Despite what the critics say, MMP has not led to the tail wagging the dog. Indeed, before Christmas Labour worked with United Future, the Greens, and New Zealand First in turn to pass legislation under urgency. However, it is disappointing but not surprising that Labour\u2019s management of the economy and of voters\u2019 expectations is not as good as its management of Parliament. Let us face it, Dr Cullen\u2019s Budget was a public relations disaster. As I said at our recent conference, Arnold Nordmeyer is Michael Cullen\u2019s hero, but that did not mean he had to deliver such a grey Budget. It was timid on issues such as tax cuts where it should have been bold. Last year\u2019s Budget was bold, with Working for Families, and we supported that. In the last term, the superannuation fund was bold, even though we opposed it. But this time, as everyone says, 67c a week in 2008 for low and middle income earners has done nothing to excite voters and everything to turn them off Labour. What is more, Dr Cullen\u2019s failure to address mounting student debt is alienating a whole generation of young people, their parents, and their grandparents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s KiwiSaver package is a good move, but for many people with no discretionary income it only highlights the growing gap between the haves and the have-nots. Homestart was another good idea. It basically restores what National axed in 1992, but it is still only a token gesture in the face of rocketing house prices. So instead of Labour forcing through the Overseas Investment Bill under urgency later this week, it should be banning the sale of all land to foreign investors, because those sales are artificially inflating the price of entry-level properties. Inflating house prices mean that the Kiwi home, instead of being a dream to aspire to, has become a nightmare for first home seekers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI give Dr Cullen credit for one thing: pinching the title from my 2001 conference speech on his superannuation fund\u2014which I called \u201CInvest now to secure the future\u201D\u2014for his Budget, which he calls \u201CSecuring our future\u201D. That Budget, I am afraid, will not go far enough to securing the future for the nation, as Dr Cullen proposes, because he continues to gamble a big slice of our taxes on the overseas sharemarket instead of using that money for sustainable infrastructure to future-proof our economy, to educate and train our young people so that they can be productive citizens, and to meet the community\u2019s health, housing, and social needs. There is not enough money going into protecting the environment, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThe supplementary estimates, if I may discuss them briefly, put aside some money to deal with flooding. That is a good thing\u2014there is something like $32 million in the supplementary estimates\u2014but where is the money going for planting forests where they are needed? One of the environmental commitments that this Government should be making is reforestation of marginal land, as well as long-term measures to put the brakes on climate change. In going beyond reforesting headwaters, the Government would be making some bold moves to tackle climate change. The Government is not doing enough to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels in this country, and I point it to the Green Party\u2019s energy package, which has recently been announced. That package gives the Government a very clear plan of what we need in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ESome of our proposals would have been in those supplementary estimates, had the Government been committed to protecting the environment, to making our economy more sustainable, and to improving the quality of life of New Zealanders. At the top of that list is half a million solar water heaters for homes in New Zealand, which is something that we will be campaigning for strongly after the election, along with a sustainable energy commission, a one-stop advisory shop for households, and not using coal to generate electricity, because the use of coal only adds to our carbon emissions and will put the Government in an even worse position than it appears to be in in relation to carbon credits. We say to the Government that it should look at the Green Party\u2019s energy policy, and its tax policy, which makes the first $5,000 of income tax-free, so that people can afford to pay not only for the increasing cost of power but also for doing the good things, like insulating their homes and putting in energy-efficient light bulbs, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00220894a4419d5e4b98bc99188219c63003\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220894a4419d5e4b98bc99188219c63003\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E It was a bit rich to hear the Greens, who apparently want to spend more money on everything, joining the National Party chorus by saying that they want more tax cuts. We have heard from the National Party already that that is the big promise for this election, but its members will not tell us what those tax cuts would be and where they would come from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe know where the tax cuts would come from and where the money would go. We know that the money would go to the rich, because Don Brash has said it would. In fact, he said he could spend a third of the surplus, and that would cover cutting company tax rates and the top personal tax rate to 30 percent. So we know that the money would go to the rich, and we know that it would come from ordinary New Zealanders and from the areas where Government spends most money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ENational superannuation would not be safe from National. It promised in 1990\u2014I remember it; I was on the campaign\u2014that there would be no superannuation cuts. There were no ifs, no buts, no maybes. What did National do? It increased the surtax to the highest level ever. I remember Lockwood Smith talking about student fees. He said they would be removed, and that if they were not removed, he would resign. He doubled the fees, and he stayed there for 6 years. One cannot trust the National Party. I am sorry that the Greens would choose to align themselves with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis election will be about track record and leadership in Government. It will be about credibility and about vision. On every front, it will be the Labour-led Government that wins the support of New Zealanders, because of 6 years of competent, stable, consistent Government. I have been in this House long enough to know that different parties over different times have gone into election campaigns making promises, and then have reneged on those promises. Then parliamentarians wonder why their credibility in the wider electorate fell as low as it did. I am proud to have been a member of a Labour-led Government that promised only what it could deliver, and delivered on what it promised. That is refreshing in terms of New Zealand\u2019s political history. It is about credibility, reliability, and trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe know that the National Party is promising everything. It put out a law and order policy, and I got my people to cost it. It would spend $722 million more a year on law and order, plus $1.8 billion in capital expenditure. Over a 10-year period, it would be a $9 billion promise. That, from the party that says it will cut taxes and slash Government income! It will spend a whole lot more on law on order\u2014but where will the money come from? Nobody on the National benches will tell us. There is absolute silence from those members. There is not even an interjection from the crowded National benches, because they cannot answer that question. We all know that the money would come from ordinary New Zealanders. They would get it in the neck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMany New Zealanders will remember the 1990s, the age of Ruth Richardson, Bill Birch, and Jenny Shipley. But they should not forget those who are still in Parliament\u2014Lockwood Smith, Bill English, David Carter\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227296944b4d2b49efb2849579e50c6c12\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9b365f723e04c4092d40589ed0de157\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Nick Smith, Tony Ryall\u2014all the old, failed, tired hacks from the past, who expect us to believe them now. Tony Ryall is the only Minister of Justice in this country\u2019s history who has faced a referendum on his term as Minister of Justice. In that referendum, 92 percent of New Zealanders showed that they had no time for the absolute and abysmal failure of the National Government to deliver. We have delivered in law and order. We have delivered the lowest crime rates in 23 years. We have delivered the best police resolution rates in 22 years. We have now put another 1,200-plus police staff into the police force. Compare that with National\u2019s plans, which we uncovered when we became Government, to slash police numbers by 540 to pay for the failed INCIS scheme! How can National have credibility when its members look at their track record of their failure to deliver? We can stand proudly beside our track record and say that we have delivered for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E Let us look at what we have delivered. We have delivered the best growth rates that this country has seen in decades. For 4 years in a row we have had higher growth than our bigger cousins across the Tasman, in Australia. We have delivered 260,000 additional jobs\u2014260,000 more New Zealanders able to pay their way, able to contribute through the taxation system, and able to improve their standards of living and the strength of the county. We have lowered poverty, and we will lower it further. That is something we are particularly proud of. We will pull from a third to a half of kids currently living under the poverty line out of that poverty, through the Working for Families package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThat is something to be proud of\u2014not big tax cuts for former Governors of the Reserve Bank, chief executives, or merchant bankers. That is what the National Party stands for. Its leader and its finance spokesperson are former bankers, and they are standing up for the rich and powerful, giving them all the assistance they need\u2014or do not need, as the case may be. They are ignoring the people on the ground who need the help\u2014the kids who need a decent education and the people in the health system who need better health-care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAnd that is what Labour has delivered; we have cut the cost of going to a doctor. That is the key thing that saw people end up in hospital\u2014because they could not afford to get to the doctor. Through primary health organisations we have lowered the cost. We have lowered the cost of pharmaceuticals. We have committed to delivering more operations; more orthopaedic and cataract operations are provided for in the latest Budget. We are making New Zealanders healthier. People are better off under Labour, and when they think about the choices, they will come to that conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe have delivered paid parental leave. We are about to deliver 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. Don Brash said that he was against that and that the country would go bankrupt, but when he looked at the polls he thought he had better say he was for it. We know about National in the past saying it is against things, changing its mind to make it look as if it is for them, and, when it is safely elected, changing its mind back again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we have the nuclear-free policy. National does not have the courage of its convictions. It has a bill, introduced by ACT, before the House that says this country will cease to be nuclear-free. A senior National MP told the Agenda programme on Saturday that Don Brash and most of the National caucus do not believe in a nuclear-free New Zealand. Will they come out and tell New Zealanders that? Not on your life! They know that, two to one, New Zealanders are in favour of the policy, so those members will dissemble about it, and betray their promises if they think they can get away with doing that\u2014just as they have done in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe tax cuts are a myth. Yes, of course we would like to pay less tax, but we know there is a cost to tax cuts, and that cost is a cut in the expenditure that is badly needed for the people of this country. We are giving superannuitants a rates rebate, which will be the first decent increase in rates rebates in more than 30 years. We are looking after health needs. We have reversed National\u2019s cuts in superannuation. That would be the first thing to go under National\u2019s policy. We know that what those members are promising simply does not add up. We know that the Australians spent $22 billion on tax cuts last month in their Budget, but what did that deliver to the average income earner on between $23,000 and $58,000 a year? Six dollars a week! In my electorate, on 1 April this year families on the average wage with three kids got 55 bucks more a week\u2014$55 more in the pocket to help them meet the needs of their growing families, at the time that they need that assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThose sorts of benefits in real, disposable income can never be delivered through tax cuts. Tax cuts would help the wealthy. Tax cuts would mean a cut in the major social expenditure areas of health and education. Tax cuts, as the OECD reported to us, would end up being inflationary, and we would end up with higher interest rates. What the National Party would give on the one hand, it would take back in additional interest rates on the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI am proud to be in this party that has delivered for New Zealand. I am proud to be in this party that has competent leadership. Can we remember Don Brash on the foot-and-mouth hoax? He was going to produce what Annabel Young, the chief executive officer of Federated Farmers, said would have been New Zealand\u2019s Chernobyl. We cannot rely on him. We have a competent and able Prime Minister; we will still have that person as Prime Minister after the election this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6217bc564d04a38a5b50b816eeb88c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6217bc564d04a38a5b50b816eeb88c2\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It is very clear that between now and the election the Minister of Finance, Dr Michael Cullen, will try to convince the nation that there is no room for tax cuts following this year\u2019s election. However, this assumes that any alternative Government would carry on with his expenditure plans exactly as he has determined them, and that they would be funded in exactly the same way as he has intended. In other words, there is only one form by which the Government can spend its money and fund its way forward, and that is the way that Michael Cullen has determined\u2014there is only one form of architecture for the house. Well, that might be true for the house that Michael built, but let us be clear that there are alternatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EDr Michael Cullen\u2019s Budget is not carved in stone; it is not Holy Writ, and it can be changed. If someone else\u2014for example, a sensible, stable, prudent, reliable centre party\u2014were to be part of a coalition after the election, then it will be changed. I mean, let us get real. Dr Cullen is running a massive, multibillion dollar surplus but, at the same time, he is saying that there is no room for tax cuts until 2008. Hello\u2014is something missing in that statement, somewhere? Of course there is room for tax cuts, and they will be happening if United Future has something to do with it. We have a good track record in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe other day in the House, Minister Steve Maharey said that the previous Government had cut taxes. Well, let me tell the Minister that the previous Government was a National - New Zealand First Government, and under that Government there were no cuts in taxes. In fact, the National - New Zealand First Government actually reversed the tax cuts that had been announced by the previous Government. That previous Government\u2014guess what?\u2014was a National - United Future Government. So it is very, very clear from our track record that every time United Future is brought into the frame, taxes go down; when we are not in the frame, taxes go up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnited Future will be cutting taxes in a number of ways. First of all, we want income-splitting for couples who are raising children. It is quite unfair that a person who has no dependents pays exactly the same tax as a man or a woman who is supporting, maybe, a spouse and two or three children. That is quite unfair; we want to bring it to an end, and income splitting will do that. We want to reduce the company tax rate, over 3 years, from 33c in the dollar to 30c in the dollar, and we want to introduce a $3,000 tax-free threshold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would like to ask the Hon Phil Goff, who just resumed his seat, how that puts more money in the pockets of the rich. Can anybody tell me that? It puts more money in the pockets of everyone. Every single taxpayer would get more money, every child would get more money, every tertiary student would get more money, and every superannuitant would get more money. In fact, there are no exceptions to that rule. That is not putting money into the pockets of the rich. That may be the National Party\u2019s tax policy. Eventually, I guess, we will get to hear what that policy is\u2014maybe about 2 weeks before election day, the way things are going? But United Future\u2019s policy is to give a tax reduction to every single taxpayer, and that will do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe will also adjust the tax brackets by $5,000, so that the income threshold of $38,000 will go to $43,000 for those on a tax rate of 33c in the dollar, and the income threshold of $60,000 will go to $65,000 for those on a tax rate of 39c in the dollar. We will do it not in 2008 but in 2006\u20141 April 2006. And it gets even better. United Future will raise the amount of money that ends up in the pockets of New Zealand\u2019s 476,000 superannuitants. In our tax cuts we are also offering them a boost in their annual amount of superannuation. We will do that, first of all, because they will benefit from the $3,000 zero tax threshold and, secondly, because we want to take out an anomaly in the present formula for calculating superannuation, where it is always based on retrospective data in relation to the cost of living and the average wage. We would make that formula rather prospective, so that on 1 April every year the calculation would be done based upon what we expect the consumer price index and the average wage to be over the next 12 months. That is a fair policy. It means that superannuitants actually get the right amount\u201465 percent after tax\u2014of the average weekly wage, concurrent with the movements in that wage, rather than always being on the back foot and being behind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe will take GST off rates, which again will leave money in the pockets of superannuitants and all other residential ratepayers in this country. How much will that cost? Well, I can tell the House that it will cost a little less than $2.5 billion to bring in all those very, very sensible and very good tax cuts. It will leave money in the pockets of families. It will leave money in the pockets of companies. It will leave money in the pockets of children. Fancy, at the moment we tax the earnings of kids\u2014their pocket money. We put a tax on it. We want to get rid of that. We put a tax on the few dollars that tertiary students earn while they are trying to pay their way through a university education. We will bring that to an end, as well. We will leave more money in the pockets of children. They will have some pocket money\u2014the actual amount that is given to them as pocket money, and not reduced through taxation. As I mentioned, we will put quite significant amounts of money into the pockets of superannuitants, and give them a fairer deal as we move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ENow when we think about it, let us put that in context. United Future says that it will give tax reductions of about $2.5 billion. Michael Cullen says that there is no room to give tax reductions of $2.5 billion. He has said so in the House several times already. When I ask him a question about any old thing these days, he comes back and says: \u201CIf we go ahead with the tax cuts that that member is proposing there will be no room for expenditure on health, there will be no room for expenditure on education, there will be no room for expenditure on police, and there will be no room for expenditure on defence.\u201D But does he ever mention the fact that he is actually budgeting for a surplus of between $6 billion and $7 billion a year? How come he is silent about that reality? I think the silence needs to come to an end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI think that the media also needs to do some pretty simple basic arithmetic here, because the people of New Zealand certainly are. They say that if the Government has a $6 billion to $7 billion surplus and a party comes along and says that it will leave $2.5 billion of that amount in people\u2019s pockets and people\u2019s purses so that they can have more money to service their debt and more money to provide an adequate income to their families, so that they can give their families the health and education services they want for them and ensure that they are able to have some little family celebrations occasionally, with plum pudding and the like\u2014so that they can do all those things that we take for granted as part of the New Zealand tradition\u2014it is no reply if they are told that that cannot be done because Dr Cullen\u2019s surplus is only $6 billion to $7 billion. How big does a surplus have to be before we can afford tax cuts? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ELet us do the simple arithmetic. Let us follow the logic through. I challenge the media today to get stuck in and say: \u201CLet\u2019s unbundle all of this.\u201D We are collecting that $6 billion or $7 billion surplus from taxpayers; that is where it comes from. So when we say we cannot afford tax cuts, United Future says that Dr Cullen is wrong. We certainly can. If we have something to do with this, we will. It is time to shift aside from the simplistic analysis that the Minister of Finance is giving to the nation on this. If he cannot afford tax cuts\u2014and that is what he is saying; that the nation cannot afford tax cuts, and it would be better if he said that the Labour Government cannot afford tax cuts\u2014well, let us get some new advice from somebody else. Let us get some new vision from someone outside the Labour Party that will see more money in everyone\u2019s pockets. At the same time can I say that by just rearranging the architecture and the balance sheet of the nation, we can, at one and the same time, by innovation, and by doing things differently, ensure that we continue to build a world-class health system, education system, police system, and so on in this country. We do not have to have this false dichotomy that says that we cannot do both. We can, and if United Future has anything to do with it, we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u00221db4dcfd9ab344bda94672dab0935b3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221db4dcfd9ab344bda94672dab0935b3c\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E A couple of things came out of the Budget last week that I should comment on. One of them was something that is an absolute rarity\u2014it is as rare as National Party members in this House getting up to speak. It was the emergence of a National Party piece of policy. Paul Adams and I got to hear it first-hand on Friday in Auckland. What was it? It was the National Party\u2019s policy on helping the disability providers\u2014the people who care for people with disabilities in New Zealand. What was it? It was from its spokesperson, Sandra Goudie, and she said this: \u201CWe\u2019re going to help the disability provider employers. We are going to take penal rates off the workers in that sector who work on public holidays.\u201D Who are they? They are the people who go into the homes on public holidays and look after the elderly and those with disabilities. To help the sector, Sandra Goudie has promised that the National Party will repeal the Holidays Act and take away penal rates from those hard-working, low-paid New Zealand workers, most of whom do it for love, not for money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThat is the National Party\u2019s policy that we heard last week. What a doozy! National members will go out on the hustings and tell those workers that the way to solve the shortage of the workforce in the disability sector is to whack the workers over the head and take some money off them. Well, contrast that with the policy of this Government. We have put money into that sector, badly needed money, so that those workers can, in fact, be trained, so that they can be paid more, and so they can go into the homes of the elderly and the disabled and work and get recognition for that work. But National Party members, true to form, say: \u201CNah, we\u2019re not having that.\u201D Low-paid New Zealand workers\u2014some of the lowest-paid, hardest-working people in this country, who look after the elderly and the disabled\u2014are to be punished to pay for the tax cuts for the rich! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWell, what does one expect of the National Party when one looks back at its track record? Remember the tax cuts of the 1990s? How were they funded? National sold 13,000 State houses\u2014that is how it funded the tax cuts\u2014after it had already sold the railways. Of course, this Government has had to buy the railways back because that was an absolute failure as we saw our railway system stripped away and the money was ripped off by the people whom the Government sold it to. That left us with an enormous burden on the roads because our rail system was not doing its bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI suppose, to fund the next round of tax cuts, if Dr Brash ever gets his way, National has not much that it could sell, but he said he will sell Kiwibank. That will be great for the low-paid, medium-income New Zealanders who are lining up at that bank to take advantage of the lower interest rates that no other bank would actually offer! Through the home ownership scheme, this Government is, in fact, helping more and more people into home ownership through the mortgage insurance scheme, which is another good feature of this Budget, as is also the KiwiSaver scheme that will put $10,000 into the pockets of hard-working Kiwi families so that they can buy their first home. That scheme will be delivered through the likes of Kiwibank that Dr Brash wants to sell. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ELet us look a little deeper, because to cut the tax from 39c down to 30c, which National said it would do, and the company tax down from 33c to 30c, will cost about $2 billion, and not one single low-paid or medium-income family will see a cent as a result of that, because they do not pay the top tax rate of 39c, nor do they pay company tax. But $2 billion will be down the tubes, gone, and cannot be spent on health, and it cannot be spent on education. As Dr Cullen said, one will get a tax policy, but it is actually a cut in health, a cut in education, a cut in defence, and a cut in law and order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E But hang on. Let us see what National has promised to spend if it ever gets a chance to be the Government again\u2014well, $2 billion on cutting tax for the wealthy and for the companies, and it wants to spend $4.5 billion on transport over the next 10 years. that is pretty miserable, but nevertheless, it is new spending. It has promised to build the Waikato expressway. It has promised $120 million for Northland roads, $110 million for Tauranga, and so on and so forth. Wherever National members visit, they promise to spend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EBut there is a hidden issue. How will they fund that? They will have toll roads. What is a toll? It is a tax. So Dr Brash is going to say that the wealthy can have a tax cut, and the companies can have a tax cut, but all those other fellows will have to pay to build the new roads by paying tolls. How will they manage that? That is what we want to know. They will also have to pay more for education for their kids, and for tertiary education for their older kids. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EEverybody knows what happened in the 1990s as a result of taxes being cut. There was not any money to supply our education system with what it needed. Labour has put millions and millions into bringing back to some sort of reality the spending on schools, the spending on tertiary education, and the spending on health. National members would also be opposed\u2014and we know they are\u2014to the half a billion dollars that this Government has stumped up with to pay nurses. The most highly rated profession in this country is nursing. It is not politicians, it is not the police, but nurses. This Government recognises that we cannot afford to import nurses to work in our hospitals while we export our trained nurses to the rest of the world so that they can earn a decent living. So that half a billion dollars cannot happen if there is a tax cut and if all that money is spent on roads\u2014as the National Party said it would do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThen there is the $4 billion they have said they will spend on defence so that we can be equal to Australia. They have committed to spending $722 million a year on law and order. Members will remember that National is going to abolish parole. When they do that they will have to build more prisons. They cannot just have the prisoners wandering around in the paddock. They will have to build more prisons, and, at $220 million each, they will have to build a lot of prisons when they abolish parole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhere will that money come from? That is what the country wants to know. Where is Dr Brash, who prides himself on being an economist, and a miserable one at that? He put up interest rates, year after year, so that New Zealanders could not afford to buy a house. Rates of homeownership plummeted to record lows as a result of his regime of interest rates. Dr Brash is saying that his party, if it is ever elected to Government, will help low to medium income families. Well, let us hear how he will give them a tax cut and spend the extra $4 billion, which Labour has in its Budget for health. How will he keep the promise to elderly New Zealanders, who have seen this Budget take away asset testing, or the first steps towards it? Where will he find the extra $18 million that is going into home-based care situations, which I have talked about? Sandra Goudie has said that those workers do not deserve that, and she will take their penal rates off them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhat about the $71 million for residential aged-care that this Budget stumped up with? What about the $297 million to lift quality in tertiary education? In this Budget there is $45 million for industry and trade training, to make up for the fact that last time National was in Government it did away with trade training and apprenticeships. So now we have nobody to build our roads, our hospitals, our schools, and all the infrastructure this country is crying out for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EIt is not voodoo economics; it is something worse when a party can tell people it will give them a tax cut but it will not tell them how much, when, or whether they will get it, but it will still be asking people to vote for it and trust it. That is what the National Party will say. That is what we know National will say. But we want the hard questions put to them by our media and by the public. How can we have all the things we have now in health, education, defence, and law and order, and have a tax cut too, and how can they afford to do that when they have already promised to spend more and more on roading, transport, law and order, etc.? It just does not add up, and any person who scrutinises National\u2019s voodoo economics, will see right through it\u2014and through Dr Brash and his colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EAt least Sandra Goudie was honest enough to come up with a stupid, dumb, ignorant policy\u2014that was better than none at all\u2014when she said that the lowest-paid, the most caring workers in this country. will lose their penal rates on weekends and holidays, and that will be the one piece of party policy that we can guarantee National will deliver on if it is ever allowed to. That is how it will fund its tax cuts. They will take it from the lowest paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022 data-id=\u00221a96c698513c48269925616ff2e441be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a96c698513c48269925616ff2e441be\u0022\u003EKENNETH WANG (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E One thing is absolutely true in this debate about how taxpayers\u2019 money is to be collected and spent. We are debating this bill under urgency, but I am wondering why we are debating it in such a big rush. The one thing that is clear to me is that this Government wants to spend more. It wants to spend more and more. This bill is about grabbing money from hard-working New Zealanders and squandering it. If we look at the figures, we see more tax collection. Actually, we do not need to look at the detail; we need to look only at the ballpark figures to see that tax revenue is at a record level, and that $3.4 billion will have been collected by the end of this financial year. That figure is in addition to all the levies, penalties, fees, and fines, so overall we are looking at nearly $5 billion in revenue collection this year. There will be even more waste, and we will see Government expenditure jump up to a record high of $6.5 billion, more than the previous year, as the forecast shows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003EWhat is the revenue being collected for? We all know what it should be for. It is meant to help ordinary New Zealanders and their families, but we all know that it will be spent on hip-hop tours, w\u0101nanga\u2014which is a raced based policy\u2014and social engineering. A story in the Dominion Post today, under the headline: \u201CTaxpayers fund $1m grant to US company\u201D, tells us that taxpayers are funding a company called Navman. I want to draw members\u2019 attention to the fact that 3 years ago this Government, via Industry New Zealand, spent $23,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money on that same company, by paying for its American owners to stay at Huka Lodge and be taken on a fishing trip. That money was squandered, and I wonder how the Government can spend more money\u2014up to $1 million\u2014on that American company. This is an example of grabbing taxpayers\u2019 money and spending it on corporate welfare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003EWe have to look at Labour\u2019s repeated claims that the proposed tax cuts are just for the rich. I would like to draw members\u2019 attention to the fact that tax cuts are not for the rich, as we see when we look at what ordinary New Zealanders are saying. I personally encounter many New Zealanders who run their own businesses, while battling to raise their families. Are taxi drivers rich? Are they being bracketed with the rich who will be ripping off the system? Members may recall what I said in my maiden speech at the end of last year. Dairy owners are battling for their lives to keep their shops open, with the help of family members who are all struggling. What about the people in the public service, like police officers, teachers, and nurses? Are they rich? Certainly not. They are hard-working New Zealanders. At the most, their incomes can be bracketed as just middle-class incomes. What have they got? We all know what they have got. They have got a packet of chewing gum a week, but not yet\u2014they have to wait for 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003EACT knows what it is to be rich. Those people are bracketed as rich by Labour. Those people, hard-working New Zealanders, are being labelled by Labour as rich. I can say that they are certainly not rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u00224c0cc90667044eec845702db7fca8e7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c0cc90667044eec845702db7fca8e7e\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to address an anomaly that I have picked up in the agriculture supplementary estimates. In 2004 there were two major flood events\u2014one in the Bay of Plenty and one in the lower North Island, in the Wanganui-Horowhenua region. The estimates have given $6 million to the Bay of Plenty and over $26 million to the lower North Island for farm restoration. That sounds really good. I applaud the Government for giving that money to farmers. But for farm restoration? Basically that says that we have had those severe storm events, the farm has been destroyed or the farming operation has been interrupted in some way or another, but here is money so that the farmer can put the farm back to the way it was before the event. That may have been fine back in the days before we were aware of climate change, when we could do whatever we liked and be fairly certain that pastoral land would be sustainable in the long term. But Cyclone Bola proved that that was simply not the case\u2014that land use actually plays a major part. If we simply restore pasture to pasture after it has been devastated by a flood, we will not stop the same thing from happening again in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EAt the time of the floods I implored the Minister to consider the afforestation of marginal lands, and he agreed with me. But let us look at the estimates. Forestry encouragement, under the estimates, has zero dollars. There is absolutely nothing for developing forestry. If we had forests on marginal lands, those lands would not slip. Trees actually hold the soil together on the steeper slopes. We have to say that climate change is here to stay. I am not suggesting for one moment that if we plant trees on marginal land, those trees will change the climate. Of course they will not. But what they will do is ameliorate the effects of climate change. When we talk about one-in-100-year flood events or storm events, we simply have to say that that is no longer the case. We are looking at maybe one-in-10-year events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI think the Government should take a much stronger line in terms of climate change factors, and think about land use that will mitigate the effect of future events. One of the things that I think we should do is to get a realistic and updated assessment of the erosion susceptibility of soils, particularly in hill country. It just makes sense to convert marginal pastoral land use to some other land use. I accept that in the short term, farmers who are farming sheep and cattle, pastoral farmers, simply cannot afford to close up their paddocks and plant trees, or allow them to revert to native bush. But we do have to say that those farmers need to be supported in some way, so that their land use will not have a detrimental effect on people further downstream. We need to find out what crops\u2014whether trees or other crops\u2014are appropriate to topography, to vehicle access, to soil type, to steepness of slope, and all that sort of thing. It makes sense for us to grow trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d419bf3963084cd4bc66ebfa5b6b9759\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What about hair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4838849f68b44aa9f1aeba923c36ad4\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: We could grow hair, as well. That would slow down one kind of erosion, I suppose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EOne thing that I think we could have done in the supplementary estimates, rather than giving money to farmers and telling them to go back and restore their farms, was to say farmers had to come up with a plan that would make their farms more sustainable in the longer term. Farmers should have to come up with a management plan for their farms before they get the money. So if the farm has a variety of soil types, for argument\u2019s sake, the farmer could say the class 7 soils would be put under trees, and the higher class soils would be kept for pasture, and what have you. That sort of thing is very easy for the Government to do. It is a condition of the farmer receiving the money. Most farmers would simply say that it makes sense. Why does the Government not do that? I do not know. We are not talking about rocket science. It is a simple thing to do to simply put a condition on the money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI think it also makes sense to have a public insurance scheme to cover events like the floods. Why does the Earthquake Commission look after residential properties, but not farming properties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00228f7199eef56d4f6088870279a347bc6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f7199eef56d4f6088870279a347bc6e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak in the appropriation debate. This is an opportunity for parties to showcase their policy for the forthcoming election. This is the last appropriation debate we will have before we go to the polls. Parties are able to come into this House and set out clearly for the voters of New Zealand what they intend to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI have to say that I have been underwhelmed by the contributions from the National spokesperson and the ACT spokesperson. John Key\u2019s speech was less than memorable. He managed to attract an audience of one\u2014Lindsay Tisch. He was the only person who turned up to hear John Key\u2019s speech. That would not be unusual, except that I was in the House on the day John Key gave his Budget speech. Some members will recall that on that day he had an audience of one\u2014Lindsay Tisch. I want to ask National members why they do not like John Key. Why will they not come into the Chamber to support and listen to John Key? I can only assume it is because he has absolutely nothing to say. That is what his speech was. It was full of nothing. It was empty blancmange. There was not a bit of policy, not a single principle. All his speech was, was a rant, a rage, and a whinge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThen I listened to the verbal diatribe\u2014or was it verbal diarrhoea?\u2014that poured out of the mouth of Rodney Hide. But I have to say that I looked at him when he was giving his speech, and I pitied him. I felt pity for that man. He is a sad case. He is a sad man. He is desperate and he is dateless, because nobody wants to play with that party. He is undermined by his own members. He spent the whole weekend trying to shore up his leadership of that disappearing party. He is outshone daily by Richard Prebble, the previous leader. He is out principled by Ken Shirley. He is out of sorts, he is out of condition, and he is out of here. That is the truth about Rodney Hide. No Parliament, I have to say, needs to have a malicious fabricator, but that is what Rodney Hide is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570e75423b564825bc3352cbff7a59dd\u0022\u003EKenneth Wang\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you should draw it to the member\u2019s attention that this debate is about the 2004-05 supplementary estimates. It has nothing to do with leadership. I think this speech is totally out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273c1599451f5413a8e2d3eccc359c83d\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I understand and respect the member\u2019s sensitivity about the state of the ACT leadership, but this debate is traditionally a wide-ranging debate. I am sure the Minister was well within the Standing Orders, but we respect that party\u2019s sensitivity at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1bcf71c66a04b33becdc8b39d112cc9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f36c4d86edd54e76a80be2848a1c1127\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the member has not been here long and that this is his first appropriation debate. He probably did not listen to his own leader\u2019s speech, which was very wide ranging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI have to say that I do not think this Parliament needs a malicious fabricator. Rodney Hide makes up figures, he makes up stories, and he is full of blatherskite. I do not think this Parliament will miss that, at all. I am waiting to hear the National Party\u2019s health policy. I suppose New Zealanders are, as well. We get a lot of negative whingeing and moaning from National\u2019s health spokesperson. He goes around New Zealand, saying how it is all bad; how the whole health system is in crisis. Most people scratch their heads and say that when one looks at the patient satisfaction surveys, one can see that 88 percent of patients think that the health system is very good indeed. However, I thought that Dr Hutchison might, in the near future, like to give us some health policy. We have waited for 6 years, and we are prepared to wait another 6 weeks or so. However, I did get a little glimpse of what we are likely to get from the National Party\u2019s health policy on television during Queen\u2019s Birthday weekend, when Dr Hutchison gave the first hint. He said that National\u2019s health policy in relation to elective surgery was to bring back waiting lists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecdeebe53b4d4e24999941eab65365a7\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e919b6376e44a22820c66fd7b12f632\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, members heard me right. He said: \u201CWe\u2019ll bring back waiting lists.\u201D I was interested to hear a person from the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists say that putting people on waiting lists would not improve their health one way or the other. However, we now know that part of the National Party\u2019s health policy will be to bring back waiting lists. That is a complete turn-round from National\u2019s policy, which was clearly set out by Bill English on 16 September 1997. It was a policy that National set about to implement from 1998, and it was called the booking system. When we became the Government we looked at that policy and asked how it worked. We asked whether it was a good policy, whether we should continue with it, and whether we should try to improve it. We thought that it was an honest policy. It was one of the few that we got out of the National Party in the 1990s, but it was an honest policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe booking system told people whether they would get an operation, when they would get an operation, whether they were close to getting an operation or could expect to get one, and whether they would not get one within the resources. That system was set up through a series of interventions that were made in the late 1990s. First of all, Bill English said that we needed to get people off waiting lists and he said that the way to get them off waiting lists was, first of all, to just keep raising the sustainable threshold. That would get them off any waiting lists. Then, by 1998, National started to implement that policy. So I can only assume that, having implemented it, they now think we will go back to a waiting list system where 96,000 people waited and waited. They were the same people\u2014they were not going on a list, being seen, and going off a list. They were the same people, and some of them had waited for 12 years. Some had waited 8 or 10 years, or whatever. Some of those people never went on a holiday, because they were scared that a letter might come from a hospital saying that their name had been taken off the list and they would be offered an operation. Now we have a party that says it will go back to putting people on waiting lists\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and David Carter thinks that is fantastic. I say that it is dishonest to tell people that by putting them on a list they might get an operation. A health organisation should be able to tell people what can be done and when it can be done within the resources it has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe other thing Paul Hutchison has taken to doing is going around New Zealand telling people how terrible everything is. He was in Tair\u0101whiti just last week, and he said that the number of people waiting for operations and the number of people getting operations in Tair\u0101whiti was worse than it was in the past. Well, I have to tell members that he made that up. I have the latest information from the Tair\u0101whiti District Health Board, and it shows that it is doing more operations than it was in the past. It is doing more operations this year than it did last year, and people there are scratching their heads as to why he came to their place and said that in the media. We do not need that sort of dishonesty when it comes to the health system. Members should look at what is really going on. They will see that huge progress has been made by the many, many doctors and nurses who work within our health system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EKenneth Wang said that our doctors and nurses are not overpaid. He is absolutely right. They would have been paid a whole heap less if we had not put money in this Budget to settle the biggest nurses\u2019 pay claim this country has ever seen. Half a billion dollars of health money will go to increase the wages of nurses in New Zealand. Let me hear ACT deny that that is good expenditure of money. Over the last 3 years our doctors in our hospitals have had a 50 percent increase in their pay. Why did we do that? We cannot run a health system unless we have doctors, nurses, hospitals, and facilities, and we have to invest money in that. It does not happen by itself. We respect that investment. We want that investment. Finally, we are starting to see that investment pay off in New Zealand. The rebuilding of a public health system takes money and time. We under-invested in health right throughout the 1990s. Only now have we got it to some state of equilibrium, and 60 percent of that expenditure has gone into the wages and salaries of our health professionals in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot about the growth in numbers of bureaucrats. I have to tell members that more people have been employed in the health system, but the growth in bureaucrats\u2014which has been thrown around\u2014has been 0.4 percent over that whole 6 years. Only 0.4 percent of that increase has been in so-called bureaucrats. Of course, the bureaucrats are the booking clerks, the people who ensure that people will have operations, and the people who answer the telephones. They are the sort of people that National said it will get rid of. National said it would take that money and put it into health. Well, a person will be lucky to get an extra ingrown toenail operation out of getting rid of the bureaucrats\u2014as National calls them\u2014in the health system. I am very proud of what we have done for health in our Budget, and we intend to do more when we return to Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022838a9fe073484d3eb399c48ef72ce979\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022838a9fe073484d3eb399c48ef72ce979\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a delight to follow the Minister of Health and her contribution in this debate on the supplementary estimates. I start by saying to the Minister that we have, and New Zealand has, lost faith in her. One has only to look at the headlines in the Dominion Post today, and the Minister had the opportunity to do something about that and she chose to ignore it totally. The Dominion Post headline stated: \u201CEmergency overload; Hospital A \u0026amp; E staff struggling to cope\u201D. It goes on to state: \u201CWellington Hospital\u2019s emergency department is bursting at the seams \u2026 Patients are spilling into hallways and staff are struggling to cope. One staff member described the situation as \u2018near crisis\u2019.\u201D Yet we have had 10 minutes of absolute garbage from the Minister of Health and she refuses to address the real issues and the reason why the public of New Zealand have no faith in that Minister or the health policies of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAs we debate the supplementary estimates today, it is the final debate in this year\u2019s Budget, and will not Dr Cullen and his Labour Government friends be pleased to see this debate out of Parliament, once and for all! Because as we all know, this Budget has been a total disaster for the Labour Government. Helen Clerk had the\u2014I was going to say the \u201Caudacity\u201D, but I think it would be truthful to say the \u201Cstupidity\u201D, to say that that is the Budget that Labour wants to campaign on. I say to Annette King, and the few members of the Labour Government sitting in the cross benches, to make my day! I am happy to debate with the people of New Zealand the absolute generosity of Dr Cullen when he promises hard-working middle-income New Zealanders a tax cut of 67c a week, provided they wait around in New Zealand for the next 3 years! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhat arrogance a Minister of Finance displays by coming into this House, acknowledging to taxpayers throughout New Zealand that they are paying too much tax, and then having the stupidity and the arrogance to say that Labour recognises that New Zealanders, particularly middle-income New Zealanders, are overtaxed, and if they stick with the Government it will give them 67c, but they have to hang around New Zealand for the next 3 years! That was just the most stupid thing that Dr Cullen could ever have done, and Labour Government members now on the opposite side of the House hang their heads in shame, to think that they were part of such a Budget policy this year. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E I welcome the opportunity to debate with Harry Duynhoven, on any platform he likes, Labour\u2019s tax cut of 67c a week against National\u2019s tax cut policy, which will be announced in the not too distant future. If he thinks his Government\u2019s policy will be a winner, he is as out of touch as Dr Cullen. I suspect he is, because that is what has happened to the Government. It has become so arrogant, so out of touch, it is failing to realise what New Zealanders are really worried about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d56e4e08e2a415bb190589481839dcb\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Which electorate do you represent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a033d3e5e6ce49779da174ea350b479d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to take the opportunity to talk about some aspects of the supplementary estimates, but first I will pick up on the rather inane interjection from Harry Duynhoven. I tell him that I represent the farmers of New Zealand, who have had enough of that Government. I refer particularly to Supplementary Estimates of Appropriations at page 12, which talks of $2.649 million more being put towards Jim Sutton\u2019s campaign to develop public access in this country. That is on top of the money that had already been spent in last year\u2019s appropriations. That is on top of the $2 million being budgeted next year for the next 3 years by Jim Sutton and Helen Clark, as they progress an agenda to open up the privately owned farmland of New Zealand to people who Helen Clark thinks should be allowed to wander over that land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIf Harry Duynhoven thinks that that policy is popular, he is as out of touch with New Zealanders as he could possibly be. He should realise that the issue is a major concern for New Zealand farmers. Now, he is nodding his head. He is actually one of the few who have woken up to the fact, and acknowledged, that this is a major concern for farmers. Farmers who live in isolated areas know they do not have the resources of the police force. They know the situation where Peter Bentley was being beaten to a pulp, and his wife was on the phone ringing 111, and the police kept Mrs Bentley talking on that phone, and would not let her get off that call to ring the neighbours for help. No help arrived, for a matter of an hour or more. That is why farmers feel so deeply about this public access debacle being advanced by Helen Clark and Jim Sutton. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca03510f0d94f8fa4c197f439019212\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: What about foreign ownership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2f50032bc334f0cb4047bad5eda311c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Harry Duynhoven that it is not for some selfish reason that farmers want to lock up their land. They are willing to let the people of New Zealand wander over their land, but they want to be shown the respect of being asked. They are the ones who have spent their hard-earned cash buying the farm in the first place, and they want the opportunity of saying yes or no to people who ask whether they can wander. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI remind Harry Duynhoven that it has worked well for 160 years, and all that goodwill is about to be destroyed. I look forward to seeing that member, and the other few members of the Labour caucus currently in the House, being on the steps of Parliament on Thursday week when thousands of farmers are going to descend on this Parliament to again lodge their protest over this public access debate. It is the No. 1 concern that New Zealand farmers have at the moment, and they have absolute disgust for Jim Sutton as he continues surreptitiously to advance that policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe tell him to table the legislation. We have been asking him all year to table it. We heard a few weasel words over the weekend saying the legislation will be in the House before the election. We took the opportunity to ask the Minister a direct question at question time today, and his answer as to when he would table the legislation was: \u201CWhen we are ready.\u201D Jim Sutton should wake up, and listen to and feel the concern of farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI bring to the House\u2019s attention one other interesting supplementary estimate\u2014that is, the $3.133 million being added to the budget of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service. That is a bureaucracy chewing up $18.5 million a year, but it is meant to be out there resolving the disputes and problems around leaky homes. The House has been told time and time again that the number of cases being brought before the resolution service, well and truly exceeds the cases resolved so far. At the current rate it will take over 100 years to resolve the claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI was amazed at some interesting statistics that Nick Smith provided. It is costing over $100,000 of bureaucracy to resolve the average claim. That typifies this Government, whereby it throws money into a bureaucracy, and employs heaps more civil servants in Wellington, and thinks that that will resolve the problems of this country. It is no wonder New Zealanders feel grossly overtaxed when they know their hard-earned taxpayer money goes into building a bureaucracy that is some 40 percent bigger than it was 6 long years ago. I say to middle New Zealand: \u201CHelp is on the way. Tax cuts will be delivered, but you\u2019ll have to vote for a change of Government to get them.\u201D I trust that middle-income New Zealand will do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00229b2d2399489243699e1972344df1f957\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b2d2399489243699e1972344df1f957\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Harry Duynhoven said, the previous speaker, for the benefit of those who did not know this, was one David Carter, the former failed finance spokesperson who was sacked by his leader, sacked off the front bench twice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db3a838f12b45ada32b59411ec2496c\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Twice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b98a79ca6f545598cc7a5c8ca553e8c\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Twice. And now in theory David Carter is National\u2019s spokesperson on agriculture and the leader of the C-team within the National Party. I first want to address a couple of points that Mr Carter made. He talked about the accident and emergency department at Wellington Hospital bursting at the seams. Well, there is a reason for that, I tell him, as he scuttles off like a paddle crab. There are not enough beds in the emergency department, because the department is not big enough. We can ask why that is. I am not a medical practitioner, but I assume that when an emergency department is being planned, one projects out on a population basis and finds out what the demands will be over the life of that building over the next 10 or 20 years. But when the planning approval was given for that building in 1999, by the previous National Government, of course, it did not make provision for enough beds in the department, nor for enough room in that department to put in those beds. That is why, sadly, the accident and emergency department at Wellington Hospital, as the member read from the headline in the Dominion Post, is bursting at the seams. National could not run a bath, let alone set up the planning and project it forward for an appropriate medical facility for the people of Wellington. That is the truth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThen we come to the issue of leaky buildings. My colleague Mr Duynhoven reminded me that before I arrived in this place, the warnings were there. One can just ask any builder in my electorate. I talked with one last week. He said the warnings on the leaky homes issue were around for 10 years before 1999. There were warnings about the Rockcote, the polystyrene, the lack of gaps, and the lack of ventilation all causing leaks in houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229227188d83534819beb1a6e8b22cd755\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: Why did George Hawkins refuse to acknowledge that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb98db4749740fabbb3dbd44b6cdf75\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: The previous speaker got up, but before Mr Catchpole, or \u201CTadpole\u201D, or whatever his name is, was in this place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac525f023c4e432abc81af0affc003aa\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Please withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e45431615144abd8b9b3660a3fee69e\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. Before that member was in the House, so he should zip up and listen, for 10 years before 1999 the building industry was warning Nick Smith and the then Government about leaky homes. The question I have for Mr Carter, as he embarks on his road to Damascus - like experience, is what the devil did he do, or Nick Smith as Minister do, in 10 years to correct that problem? They did nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn addressing the appropriations I want to touch on Mr Hide\u2019s speech, just briefly. I know that the Minister of Health has commented on it. But what a sad speech it was from a very, very sour member. [Interruption] Mr Wang needs to read the Standing Orders. This is a wide debate. What a sour speech that speech from Rodney Hide was. That was Custer\u2019s Last Stand\u2014or, maybe from \u201COld Yeller\u201D it was \u201CCustard\u2019s\u201D last stand\u2014because the great delight I will have at the next election, when I stand up on the stump\u2014[Interruption] Mr Tisch should stump up and give us a policy. When I stand up on the stump, I will debate our policy of providing $83 a week for Sue and Nick, who have a couple of kids and earn $32,000 a year\u2014which would take a 9c in the dollar tax rate, if one was to do so under a slash-and-burn policy like National\u2019s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe one thing I will take great delight in after we do win this election is that that crew over there, which includes Mr Wang and the so-called leader of the ACT party, will not be here. That cancer, in political terms, will be excised and cut out of this place\u2014and I say that not in a disrespectful way. That wound will be excised from this Parliament. Gone will be the days of wading through the political sewer, and bringing this Parliament and its members into disrepute. I say to Mr Hide that he should remember, when he is outside this place as a citizen in the free world, there will be 120 of us who will be inside, and then we may see that member and a few of his mates called to account. I look forward to that day. \u201COld Yeller\u201D will be right outside this place, and we will hold him to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI want to go back; I have digressed. This debate on the appropriations goes like this: National members want a tax cut that, by their own figures, if one dumps in excise cuts, cuts to company tax, cuts to personal tax\u2014you name it\u2014will add up to, in effect, $5.5 billion, which is half the Health vote. They say, when asked how they will get the dough, that they will cut out all the so-called waste in the Government. If we look at the figures when National was in office, we see Government expenditure was 33 percent of GDP. What is it now, with that so-called waste? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f536589e91a24230b2eea374113ed8b5\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: 30!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022890d9a00a9d5497e94ab1591652b05ba\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Thirty percent, my colleague says. What is it forecast to be once the Working for Families package is fully implemented?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224929d5a312f14cd59e89f946883ef4f4\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: 32!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022681c274a3db24bc2ae9aaba023dfa8c6\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Thirty-two percent\u20141 percent lower than when the National has-beens were in Government. I ask those members how they would do that, because $5.5 billion is half the Health vote. That is not cutting waste out of the Health vote; that is gutting health. There will be no health system if $5.5 billion is cut out. The question is: which hospitals would they close? I say Mr Tisch should stump up with a policy. Which hospitals and which pre-schools in my electorate would he close? Would National do what it threatened to do in my electorate before I became the member in 1999, which was to gut and close Rangiora Hospital and Oxford Hospital\u2014are the National members going to run that up the flagpole? By God, I will enjoy defending those hospitals. I will be in the trenches defending them if ever, after the election, National managed to implement that particular policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI was on CTV with Gerry Brownlee\u2014there was not much room on the screen, I have to say. I asked him where he would get the money for tax cuts from, and he could not answer that. He said to me in the advertisement break that it was a bit like treading water\u2014that until National announces its policy, it has to keep treading. National members have bleated on, and some may sink like deadweights. I say to them that they should get the tax policy out. If they are so proud of it, they should do two things: first, announce it today; and second, put it before the Finance and Expenditure Committee system that even National signed up to unanimously, whereby Treasury would gain a consultant\u2014which it has done\u2014who could cost all the political parties\u2019 tax policies. Even the ACT party dipped into that one and submitted its policy\u2014Mr Prebble must have been in charge that day. The Green Party submitted its policy. United Future submitted its policy. Labour\u2019s policy is out there. It has been picked over, trodden on, booted around, and chewed around for years. Which party did not submit the tax policy that it is so proud of? That crew\u2014the National Party. We have done one costing, and now there is a second round. Treasury does not get involved in politics. It has hired a reputable economic consultancy firm. But why will National not have its policy costed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI predict that National will announce its tax policy, but that in no way will National go anywhere near anybody who would independently cost that policy. National will not go near anyone to have that done, because it knows the hidden traps that are in its policy. The hidden traps are that every member of Parliament, including Mr Wang over there on the Opposition benches, will get a couple of hundred bucks a week, I predict, out of a Don Brash tax policy. Mr Wang and a few others talked about hard-working Kiwis. Well, what would they know about hard-working Kiwis? What would every battler on $32,000 or $37,000 a year get from the so-called tax cut? Nothing. What would Nick and Sue in Oxford in my electorate get? Members should hunt them down and talk to them, because they are now receiving $82 a week as of this year, but under a National Party tax cut they would get nothing. If I am on $55,000 a year, what would I get from a National Party tax cut? I may get $5 a week. [Interruption] I hear an interjection from over there in the Opposition. Mr Hide says our policy would only buy a stick of gum. I suppose $5 would buy a triple meat burger for Rodney Hide. But a family of four kids and two parents earning $55,000, under our Working for Families system today, and given their rent and other costs, gets $150 a week. I said before that it would require a drop to a 9c in the dollar tax rate to give a family on $55,000 a year the equivalent of $150 a week\u2014and I assume that at that point so little tax would be coming in that it would be a case of \u201Cthe last one out switches the light off.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThat is where the debate will lie for those working people. After this appropriations debate, at the appropriate time, that is what we will go out and debate at the election. Then we will match Labour\u2019s record with National\u2019s record. The only record National can stand on is what it did last time it was in Government in respect of the pension. I ask where National would make the cuts\u2014in health, in hospitals, or in the police? Where would it do that? The people want to know, and National should be honest enough to stump up and give them a tax policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002255ce4ffcfa5b46149365fef873fc026d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255ce4ffcfa5b46149365fef873fc026d\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I tell all the listeners sitting in their cars that the speech we were just treated to from Clayton Cosgrove was his \u201CPlease make me a Minister next time.\u201D speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022330ed3ba3e6c41e09ed2ae248e539fb2\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t need to say please. He\u2019s doing all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022939507e9b57b4add92c1fd09af6493bc\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so Clayton Cosgrove is going to be a Minister in the next Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022280b25ad2b844e0ab12855b0d7cae1b7\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, you wait and see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233e4a98fd6854d06b56ed879ccbd6b7e\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very fine announcement from the Minister of Health, who will be departing, along with her entire front bench, as Labour leaves Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThat factor brings me nicely to the point I wanted to make. It is one thing to have a debate and a speech targeted on the facts; it is quite another thing to have a member of Parliament stand up and use sarcasm, vindictiveness, and nastiness\u2014to call one member a paddle crab; to call another member yellow and not be pulled up by the Chair; and to imply that another member is so big and fat that he did not fit on the TV screen in a particular interview. If that is the sort of arrogance this Government wants to bring to the next Parliament and to the next Cabinet, then so be it, but I suggest to Annette King that it is a little bit presumptuous to assume that Labour will be in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI point to another comment. There was a little interchange that speaks very loudly of the culture. When Mr David Carter spoke\u2014and, God knows, I am not here to defend him\u2014he was questioned by Government members as to what seat he holds and what constituency he represents. Immediately to the fore came Judith Tizard, Annette King, Harry Duynhoven, and Georgina Beyer, to ridicule him as though he were some sort of B-class MP because he does not have a constituency. Here is the point: Georgina Beyer is herself now on the list; the Deputy Prime Minister of this country, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, is a list MP. It smacks again of an arrogance that can be demonstrated only by people who believe that they are beyond reproach, and that they are, as constituency MPs, more important than list MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt brings to mind the Jill Pettis comment, in answer to a question from a person on the street as to whether she could govern with New Zealand First. Her answer was: \u201CThey\u2019re so unsophisticated.\u201D Imagine that comment being reiterated in the freezing works, amongst the hard-core Labour vote! Imagine that comment on the marae! If Winston Peters is less sophisticated than Jill Pettis, and if that is the proviso the chief Government whip is going to bring to the negotiating table\u2014that she wants to govern only with people who are sophisticated\u2014then it suggests that Labour is a country mile away from its roots. The people on the marae, the tangata whenua, whom Labour so proudly claims to represent, are not going to take kindly to that sort of arrogance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E It is the sort of arrogance displayed by Mr Maharey, who made all sorts of promises in Opposition, then became a Minister and reversed his position. That act created the \u201CMaharey principle\u201D, which is the ability to say one thing when in Opposition and do another when in Government. It was most aptly summed up, not by Mr Cosgrove in his very sad speech, but by Dr Cullen himself, who said in the House: \u201CWe won. You lost. Eat that!\u201D. That sums it up. Mr Carter was quite right when he pointed out that the commentary we hear from Labour MPs and Ministers is pure arrogance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe Budget is my next point. I have just come from a Grey Power meeting in Porirua on law and order, which the Hon George Hawkins attended. I give him 10 out of 10 for attending\u2014brave chap. He is a nice chap, actually. I have known George Hawkins for a very long time\u2014since he was a member of the Mike Moore team. But for him to stand and justify the Budget, the supplementary estimates, and the expenditure of money in this Government\u2019s coffers, by telling the people of Porirua this afternoon that crime is falling, was summed up by the reaction of the audience members, who crossed their arms and put their heads down and shook them. After the meeting was over I asked a number of people whether they knew of anyone in their family who had been a victim of crime and who had not reported that crime, and if so, to tell me why it was not reported. All the people standing around me said that of course they did\u2014not one member of their family, but many members. For the Minister to justify his reduction in crime-fighting expenditure, an insignificant increase in the police budget, and an insignificant increase in police numbers over 4 years, by telling those elderly people, who have read in the papers of another two elderly people murdered in their home, that crime is falling smacks of either stupidity or arrogance\u2014one can take one\u2019s choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe same man said that burglary rates are down. Burglary rates are not down\u2014reports of burglaries are down. Let us ask any policeman, policewoman, or citizen whether he or she believes that burglaries are down. Let us go to the national crime statistics and the victimisation statistics. They state that crime is under-reported by a massive 60 percent. Do we see a commensurate increase in expenditure in this Budget? Do we see a commensurate concentration on burglaries? No. When I went to the Northern Communications Centre I saw all the burglary cases from that night being stacked up as priority three, to be looked at not on Saturday, not on Sunday, but some time on Monday. How does that settle with average New Zealanders? Average New Zealanders who have had their home burgled try not to disturb the scene, because they truly believe that when they ring the police, a policeman or policewoman will come around to examine the scene, collect DNA, and collect fingerprints, and that then the family will be free to get on and clean up the burglar\u2019s mess\u2014that home-invasive mess. But that is not what happens. We all sat there\u2014Marc Alexander, myself, and Martin Gallagher\u2014and watched all those burglaries be classified as priority three, to be left for the Monday or Tuesday. In fact, we now know that burglary scenes are never investigated on the night or day they are reported\u2014never. And the Government has the nerve to tell us that burglaries are down? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EReported burglaries are down for economic reasons. First, most people do not have home contents insurance. They can make no claim. So there is no point in their reporting the crime, because they know full well that it will never be solved, and they do not need a claim number from the police, because they will not put in an insurance claim. Second, those people who do have home contents insurance policies will make an evaluation as to whether they want to affect their no-claims bonus or excess. They will make a value decision as to whether they will report the burglary. Again, for the Government to talk of its pride about the police budget is a very, very sad thing. It belies its true commitment to resolving crime and bringing crime rates down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EFor Mr Hawkins to say that the road toll is down and that that justifies the quota ticketing system is a nonsense. Speeders are not the only people who kill on our roads. What kills on our roads is bad engineering. If people need proof of that, they should go out on State Highway 1 and look at the good engineering that has been done to divide off those lanes along the coast. That sort of thing reduces road fatalities. Education\u2014the excellent advertisements on television\u2014reduce road fatalities. None of the people in Grey Power believe that the quota ticketing system on its own, which collects $100 million per year, is responsible for reducing the road toll. Children reduce the road toll when they tell their mum, dad, and grandad to put their seatbelt on. That comes from education. The quota ticketing system is about one thing and one thing alone: redressing the balance and bringing $96 million in revenue into the coffers. Engineering, education, and road safety together reduce the road toll, not quota ticketing on its own. Nobody believed the Minister when he tried to say that it did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAs for the lowering of standards in police recruiting, nothing in this Budget or these supplementary estimates suggests that this Government is serious about bringing safety to our streets with a serious increase in police numbers. For the Government to crow about 247 officers over 4 years is pathetic. We need 2,500 officers now. Auckland\u2014[Interruption] The Minister Judith Tizard laughs. She should read the police\u2019s own report from 2002. They needed then an extra 100 response units, and they still do not have them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00225b461120b08242468bc89b84bdcc336a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b461120b08242468bc89b84bdcc336a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E There are, apparently, 2 minutes left, so I will not embark on the major part of my contribution to the debate until after the meal break. Instead, I want to respond to some of the comments made by the member who has just resumed his seat. He has with this Government a point of agreement and some points of disagreement, and I want to tease out his arguments a little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EHe had a point of agreement when he said\u2014and he said it only the once\u2014that enforcement alone will not improve road safety. He is right. We agree with that. We think enforcement alone will not improve road safety, and we are not supporting an enforcement-alone approach. That is why the advertisements on television that the member referred to are running. They are being paid for courtesy of the safety administration programme run by this Government. That is why more money is going into road safety engineering this year than ever before. That is why roads that are being built or refurbished today are safer than ever before. That is why the median strip along Centennial Highway that the member referred to went in under this Government. We understand that engineering, education, and enforcement together matter. What will not work is education and engineering. What will not work is two out of three. That just will not work. Two out of three will not do. Education, engineering, and enforcement together are mutually reinforcing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIt is not OK for the member who has just resumed his seat to suggest\u2014and here is the point of difference\u2014that this Government has enforcement in order to raise revenue. We do not. We would like nothing more than to collect nothing from speeding tickets. We would like nothing more than for nobody to receive a speeding ticket. It would suit us down to the ground. We would lose money. Actually, if we take a venal approach to it and talk about money only, instead of lives, we can say that we would probably make money on that, because we would avoid the costs of hospitalisation of people whose cars have been crunched, and the accident compensation costs that are inflicted upon society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b0635d465c342929f0a58c774125cb4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have one question to ask the National Party. Where is its policy? Where is its policy on tax cuts? A policy on anything would do, but I ask where the policy on tax cuts is. The reason I am asking is that the National Party does not have a very good record of following through. It did not follow through on \u014Crewa I. It did not follow through on imprisoning a whole lot of people in jails that had not been built and that it did not have the money to build. It did not follow through very well on what it said about taking babies from solo mums and putting them out for adoption. It has caused itself quite a headache by having lots of little dabs about where it might go if it were ever to become the Government, but never following through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ENow the weeks since the Budget are beginning to count. There has been no follow-through. Colin Espiner said in the weekend Press: \u201CIf National doesn\u2019t release its tax-cuts policy\u2014not just drop hints\u2014in the next fortnight it will drop back behind Labour in the polls.\u201D It will do that anyway, but the question is where is the tax policy. The reason it matters is that the ACT party has in the interim managed to put out its tax policy. All the details of that policy are out in the public arena. It makes no sense, of course, but it is out there. United Future has put out its tax cuts policy. The Greens have even decided they have things to say on taxation. But the National Party has simply said that it would give mighty big tax cuts. It is not saying how big or for how many\u2014unless we add them all up. Let us add up all the hints that have been dropped about 39 percent becoming 36 percent and 33 percent becoming 30 percent, and about making sure that an extra $600 million\u2014coming out of taxpayers\u2019 pockets\u2014is spent on roads, as well as about getting rid of this tax, that tax, or the other tax because National does not like it. When we add it all up, we get a very big number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIt has not yet been confirmed in a tax policy statement from the National Party. Why not? Because the National Party is starting to work out that it is not a minor party, that it cannot drop big tax numbers without coming under the immediate scrutiny of the finance sector, of the Labour Government, and of anyone who knows anything about how to drive an abacus. The National Party knows that it has to come up with a tax policy that is saleable, and it has gone and oversold. It cannot possibly put together a tax policy that would give the cuts of $30, $40, or $50 a week that New Zealand families would say is good enough\u2014because that is the sort of money, just for starters, they are getting from the first part of Labour\u2019s Working for Families package. So if National intends to give $30, $40, or $50 a week to New Zealand families, it needs to tell us where the money would come from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a36a941211144c7698b46f6c7a2350b3\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: The surplus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225891c495f4fa4f4fbc371883bd38dfbb\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The associate professor of something or other from an earlier time has interjected that he thinks the word is \u201Csurplus\u201D. I have news for that gentleman: there is none. The operating balance excluding revaluations and accounting changes is a surplus that is spent on capital investment, the Cullen fund, retiring debt, building hospitals, and building schools. There is no surplus. So we have promises for rich New Zealanders and for middle-income New Zealanders. We have promises of cuts in the carbon tax, in company tax, and in income tax, and we have promises of no cuts in services. That does not add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe National Party has got itself into the beginning of a hole. It said that it would give New Zealanders tax cuts of consequence, it said that every New Zealander would be better off as a result of tax cuts from National, and it has worked out that it cannot afford the money. The only way it can afford tax cuts is either to borrow in order to fund them\u2014and, guess what, the word \u201CMuldoonist\u201D was used against Don Brash, the leader of the National Party, in the New Zealand Herald today by a widely respected commentator\u2014or to make swingeing cuts to health, education, social welfare, justice, and law and order. Those are the two options: borrow and hope, or swingeing cuts to social and security services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe National Party is in a hole. It had a great time a few weeks ago. It is in a hole now, and it will have to announce its policy soon, because otherwise the hole will get bigger. That is the problem faced by the National Party. The hole will not get any smaller; it will get bigger and bigger. As the expectations of tax cuts rise in the country, as the smart alec two-word signs go up around the country, showing the difference between Labour and National, and as National thereby comes under the spotlight, questions will be asked more and more often by commentators and then by the public: \u201CWhere are the tax cuts? Where is the difference? What will this election be about?\u201D. If it is not about tax cuts, then the public already knows how it will vote; people will vote for the Government they know and love so well. But if National can pull 5 billion bucks worth of magic from somewhere and call it tax cuts, then people in New Zealand might want to give it a bit of a chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESo National has an opportunity to go to the people and say: \u201CThis is what we mean by tax cuts.\u201D Then the debate can begin. Then we can decide whether this nation wants the Government to become an even smaller part of the country\u2014whether the Government becomes even leaner and meaner and cuts spending on health and education much harder than National ever did in the 1990s. [Interruption] The member might remember that when the big benefit cuts took place at the beginning of the 1990s, the amount of money taken out of the economy was $1.3 billion\u2014only a quarter of what is needed. We would need four times the money raised by the \u201Cmother of all Budgets\u201D in order to get anywhere near the amount of money National has already promised to give New Zealanders. So National has to decide whether it will front up. Will it be tax cuts by Christmas? Will it be tax cuts by 1 April? Will it be tax cuts in the first 3 years? Or will it be tax cuts only when we can afford them, which is on the never-never?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaf4a2504d224a3b8c61b13bff2edf11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaf4a2504d224a3b8c61b13bff2edf11\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Labour ought to listen to what people are saying about its 67c tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e13c4ebb47fb474c9bea584c36b80d42\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Not much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e265d78dff74a2c8377837ea585f3c2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. In fact, they are saying worse than not much. It would be better if they were saying nothing. If I were that member I would think it better if the drivers on the taxi rank outside Auckland airport were saying nothing about the 67c tax cut. Instead, they are talking to every single passenger about what a waste of time it is, and, more importantly, about how they feel taken for granted. That is the strategic hole Labour has fallen into. Dr Cullen has been so busy trying to buy the election in 2008 that he has forgotten that Labour has to get some votes in 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee4faf9906248859aec5081a90050e4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019re going to buy them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c7ac6ca7d6a4f7fa2a6512adc61c6ca\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was what he was meant to be doing. He has taken voters for granted. The Labour back bench will realise one of the long-term truths of politics: the punters are never grateful. The voters in New Zealand have a healthy disrespect for Government. The less damage the Government does, the more the voters may be grateful. But if Labour thinks that people ought to be grateful for getting back their own money, the lesson of history is that they will not be. Voters who think they are taken for granted do not behave well at the ballot box when a Government is looking for support. That is the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThere are middle and higher-income New Zealanders who have supported Labour at the last couple of elections, and Dr Cullen and Ms Clark, in particular, have made the arrogant assumption that these people are social democrats of some kind. Well, they are not. They are good, conservative, mainstream Kiwis, and their support has to be earned by any party. National used to take them for granted, and it learnt the hard way that it cannot. Now Labour is taking those people for granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E That breach of trust between those voters and Labour is at the heart of Labour\u2019s problems now. Dr Cullen and Helen Clark just assumed that because they were so magnificent, those people would keep voting for them. I know that Dr Cullen is talking about the last election campaign\u2014all sorts of lessons were learnt from that\u2014but the pity is that he does not appear to have learnt them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI will spend some time on Dr Cullen\u2019s accounting, because it is quite important. He has tried to change the definition of the Government\u2019s surplus. He has tried to take us back 15 years\u2014in fact, more than 15 years; it is now getting on to almost 20 years\u2014when the Government accounts ran on\u2014[Interruption] The early 1990s. It was Mode B (Gross) and Mode B (Net), and all that stuff. He is trying to take us back to when the Government just ran a simple fruiterers cash-register system of \u201Ccash in, cash out\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn fact, there has been bipartisan agreement for almost two decades, if one includes the time that the policy was in the making, that \u201Ccash in, cash out\u201D was not the way to run a modern Government; that, in fact, accrual accounting mattered. Dr Cullen had one chance to change the rules, which he took when he came in as Minister of Finance. He said that the current surplus was not a good way of measuring the activities of Government, so he would change it. That was his opportunity, and he changed it to the operating balance excluding revaluation and accounting charges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat turned out to be a bit of a puff of smoke in the wind, because the operating balance excluding revaluation and accounting charges has been significantly different from the operating surplus in only 1 year. It makes a big difference to the management of Cabinet expenditure, because nothing undermines Cabinet Ministers\u2019 self-discipline more than finding that they have been made to make savings, and then finding that the surplus gets dramatically changed because of a revaluation of the Growth Services Fund. They do not like that at all, because $500 million can just get changed overnight, on an accounting change, when they have spent months hacking away, saving $100 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDr Cullen changed the system, but he did not change it to a cash system. If he had really believed what he now says about how the Government should account for its activities, he would have changed it then. He now knows that because he left it until it suited him, the public have no idea what he is talking about. As far as the public are concerned, they believe the numbers. Why would one blame them? We spent two decades educating the public about good public policy and good public accounting, and when they see a $4 billion, $5 billion, or $7 billion surplus, they believe the numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn the last 3 or 4 months Dr Cullen has taken on the job of trying to change the public\u2019s mind. If Dr Cullen is as clever as he thinks he is, he should know that it would take a good 5 years to change the public\u2019s view; to tell them that the actual surplus is not the surplus, or to explain to the public that he has got all these other uses to which he puts the surplus, which means that there is not really a surplus at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a95acd974a24fe39837683c88017ff2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s not true, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d114cae55647ada989bef290a424ed\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, the point is that he had the opportunity to change the rules and he left it too late. Now the public believe the numbers that have been published. They believe that the Government has an operating surplus. It is going to be very difficult for Dr Cullen in the next 3 months to change the rules that have been in place for 20 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022472d50bd6c15438daebb1d7de1af4536\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: He will fail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed4ee09ee7c4515b4a0acfdaea9e262\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is worse than that. He has failed. The time for that argument is over. The look on his back-benchers\u2019 faces shows what a revelation it has been for them. They believed what he told them, which was that because he was so smart the public would change their minds just because he said they should. But, in fact, they have not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI will spend a little bit of time on the Government\u2019s spending; in particular, in my own area of education. I have had, as everyone else has had, the released Official Information Act request on the Budget bilaterals for education. It shows a bureaucracy and Government completely at sea when it comes to understanding what it is doing with the money that it is spending on education. The Treasury reports on the bilaterals make it quite clear that the Government has no concept of value for money in education. It has had almost no control over the expenditure of money in education\u2014particularly in tertiary education. The official documentation of the last 3 years outlines a trail of incompetence and waste. The public, because they have seen so much of it, have now come to understand the incompetence of the Government with their money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat is the other thing Dr Cullen will have to come to grips with. Although he sees himself as some kind of fiscal hawk who has ridden the Cabinet and caucus hard on spending, the public increasingly believe exactly the opposite, because they see the evidence. In the public mind, value for money matters. It matters more than collaboration, cohesiveness, and partnership\u2014all those weasel words of the day that mean no one is accountable under this Government. The public want value for money. If there is $3 billion more spent on health, they want to see $3 billion more of health services. The problem is that they see almost no extra health services. If they see a couple of billion extra dollars spent on education, they like to think that some people are learning something. But they have discovered that that is not happening, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c783156ac75e4755959110a7146ed2a0\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Extra institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c897b618cc1949a19ae9bfa76875bc35\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As that member will find out, our polytechs\u2014public institutions of which she is supportive\u2014will all get into huge financial problems over the next couple of years, despite the expenditure of huge amounts of money by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00228d86ba05f6dc48b1a3a7e53eeb9b93a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d86ba05f6dc48b1a3a7e53eeb9b93a3\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E That was the leader-in-waiting for the National Party, but\u2014regrettably for the National Party\u2014he is also the leader who took that party to the biggest defeat in its history. The biggest defeat that National has ever suffered in an election was under that man, Bill English. It just shows the value of the currency of his opinion. It is also worthy of note that he had some time in the finance portfolio. I reiterate the point made to the House earlier by Clayton Cosgrove that the Finance and Expenditure Committee had agreed that it would have Treasury examine the tax and finance policies of each party independently, in order to offer the public a fair opinion of those policies. The only party that will not put its policy through that process is the National Party, because it is afraid of what will be found\u2014and it has good reason to be afraid. The other policies it has put forward, like, for example, social welfare, have been justifiably trashed. Its members do not talk about social welfare policies any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c88183b2f17471e888cfcdf9bddf88a\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187f77668b0845bb9c14f09230208ada\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Opposition members may laugh, but let us go back for the joke. The joke is that National\u2019s leader, Don Brash, said that the party would have the unemployed line up outside a post office. That was the National Party\u2019s policy on social welfare. We all know\u2014except the out-of-touch National Party\u2014that post offices have long since gone. The National Party then went on to say that women who refused to name the father of their children would have to face a financial penalty. The bad news for the National Party is that that is now the case. The National Party then said that there would be a 90-day trial period for beneficiaries who were trying to find work. Again, the National Party was wrong, because that is already policy. It also said that it would have people work for the dole\u2014that if people could not find jobs, National would get them jobs in the community. Analysis of its own policy back in the terrible 1990s shows that that did not work. The people who were put on make-work schemes were less likely than others to find jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Labour-Progressive Government has been outstandingly successful in employment. When we came into office, we inherited approximately 160,000 people who were on the dole. The National Government in 9 years had managed to increase the number of unemployed from approximately 100,000 to 160,000. This Government has taken that number down by 100,000\u2014100,000 people are off the dole, so while there were approximately 160,000 people unemployed, there are now about 60,000. There are 22 percent fewer people on benefits than there were before. This Government has been spectacularly successful in reducing youth unemployment and long-term unemployment, and I say to Bill English that the public will be very grateful for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWhen I was an MP in the 1990s, parents came to my electorate office and were desperate with concerns about their children\u2019s prospects for a job. That is no longer a particular concern for parents, because this Government has increased the number of people in industry training by approximately 80,000. It has almost doubled the figure. The National Government got rid of apprenticeships; Labour reinstated apprenticeships, and it is giving kids jobs, hopes, and skills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWe have increased industry training funds, so the whole emphasis of this Government has been on creating jobs, giving New Zealanders skills to get those jobs, and filling job vacancies with New Zealanders in preference to importing people from overseas. It has been spectacularly successful. New Zealand now has the second-lowest unemployment rate in the OECD. When in our history can we recall New Zealand having fewer unemployed than Australia, Britain, the United States, Germany, Japan\u2014almost anywhere? When can we recall the time in its history when New Zealand had a greater participation rate by the workforce in work? That is a remarkable achievement, and the public will be very grateful to this Government for leading such a remarkable turn-round. This country now has hope and opportunity, unlike the situation that will be put forward by the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENational is saying that it will give people tax cuts, and we are talking there about approximately $5 billion worth of tax cuts. Now, the public are not as stupid as that. They will know that $5 billion worth of tax cuts will have to be paid for from somewhere. What will National cut? It has lined up what it calls a \u201Cbloated civil service\u201D. Well, will it cut the extra 2,700 teachers this Government has put on stream? Will it cut the extra 3,300 nurses who are employed under this Government? Will it cut the extra 950 medical staff, or the extra 1,250 clinical support staff? This Government has invested heavily in public services, to make sure they are functioning and workable for the New Zealand public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWe used to have public services that were malfunctioning; they did not have staff or resources. This Government has invested heavily in roads, jobs, education, and health services. New Zealand, after 6 years of a Labour Government, is a vastly better place than it was when we inherited it. It is not perfect; we know there is more work to be done. That is why this Labour-led Government will campaign hard in the next election on its record: lower numbers unemployed, more people in jobs, wealthier people, and a Working for Families package that means we have reduced child poverty. On every front, and against every measure, New Zealand is a better place today than it was before this Government came to office. We have a proud record, and we are prepared to stand and have our years in Government compared with the nasty 1990s of the previous National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022085ac681b99d487f941b0ae76f888684\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2004/05) Supplementary Estimates) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228f752cbff5664db0a4c0d23be1e36b7b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2005/06) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022849ba0f8b6654e6ba4be6a2e3bb69c96\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2004/05 Supplementary Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022849ba0f8b6654e6ba4be6a2e3bb69c96\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2005/06) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b981d76d31644bd9a0edd2e2c1bfe55\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022205e3b3ec21c402893f57ba8d8088510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022205e3b3ec21c402893f57ba8d8088510\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2004/05 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2005/06) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223d00edccc3a54ee9a530975ed2693c4b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2004/05 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2005/06) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227eef01b06abf433cbe78bb923a660162\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fbd2bb280c24a37935542e1b51b7549\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4239f5c9a9b4d6e88e3a5406917233e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4239f5c9a9b4d6e88e3a5406917233e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the debate on the performance and current operations of Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises, and the passing through their remaining stages of the Land Transport Amendment Bill, the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill, the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3), the Overseas Investment Bill, the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill, and any bills into which those bills may be divided. This motion is moved to allow for additional sitting hours this week, to consider legislation the Government wishes to see passed before the end of June. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002276320f95d2dc4362ad5e71b5ddff4755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276320f95d2dc4362ad5e71b5ddff4755\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Could the Leader of the House just confirm that it was his intention in that motion to have those matters go through all stages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00225c6b57aa809644d9a8d73483754705b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c6b57aa809644d9a8d73483754705b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ee5c4f84d3e24d898d1422d50a6a0963\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7f84a8fcef440a68dd52fd13bdfff3e\u0022\u003EDebate on Crown Entities, Public Organisations, and State Enterprises\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002228e97562c307463c9d7f63b050f103ae\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022560c6cf372af4afaaba68074bd674cc4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate on the performance of Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises is a series of debates on individual reviews of Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises as reported by select committees. The debates on the individual financial reviews should be relevant to their performance in the 2003-04 financial year and their current operations. A member may have no more than two calls on each review. Three hours is allowed for the debate. At the conclusion of the 3 hours, it will be reported to the House. A list of financial reviews available for debate is on the Table. I understand that members have indicated the Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises they wish to debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227779be233cbb4bcc84a6cd0d9e53e700\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002267f1d45cce324284846a091ab6ae7086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267f1d45cce324284846a091ab6ae7086\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. If we do not speak to it, are we able to vote on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6e51591711442e4acf380dbe80e0ba4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b47565adb6234d9ba218a8e20d35787e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221966e47601f445c0af1b4f9d2070bab1\u0022\u003EAir New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b5f5c38c4fe4584b9116a5a39c7e57c\u0022\u003EEarthquake Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022305e35299d2543bdaa31cbd698548800\u0022\u003EGovernment Superannuation Fund Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002238a1799ca91743cab9ed331e555a819f\u0022\u003EThe Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6862ff463e74a24bf88a24f2f9d80f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6862ff463e74a24bf88a24f2f9d80f2\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (Junior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Can I just clarify something? I take it this is a fixed 3-hour debate, so if we have pointless votes we are cutting into our own speaking time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a842151e71844d8ebaf726f086d9933b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is exactly right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236aa235781a64d0c82b37dda53485764\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: And that last vote was called by the National Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ab2fc7f1511482ba4d8bce6d53ac064\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EReports noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226104a49ab80a4f5bb6f93245ef5f9349\u0022\u003ETelevision New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd5710fa553b4ff9bb1d0545058ecc48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd5710fa553b4ff9bb1d0545058ecc48\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it is just over 2 years ago that Television New Zealand was turned from a State-owned enterprise into a Crown entity, and given new legislation, a new charter, and a new mandate. There was a tremendous amount of hype and, indeed, a lot of hope. We were going to have a State broadcaster that would reflect New Zealand to New Zealanders. It was not going to show the same incessant diet of foreign programmes available on TV3 and other commercial television channels; it was going to show New Zealand to New Zealanders. We gave it money to implement its charter\u2014about $25 million last year and the previous year. I think it is timely, 2 years later, to take stock and to ask ourselves whether it has worked. Has TVNZ lived up to its expectations, and have we seen, as we were told at the time that we would, more and better of New Zealand on our television channels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228c2c4f19a3247158a32860a14910bc1\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: All that ballroom dancing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6cec13ee19e41beb99e08751edb9353\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I will come back to the ballroom dancing. When I looked at the fine print, which I did recently, I discovered that we have had less, not more, New Zealand programming on TVNZ since it has turned itself into a Crown-owned entity, since it has had its charter, and since we have been pouring money into it. The total number of first-run New Zealand programmes is actually down by 3 percent, or 185 hours, since the charter came in in 2003. If one takes out the repeat programmes, and looks at the 6 a.m. till midnight figures\u2014which is what, internationally, one normally does\u2014one finds that the Television One figure was actually down last year from 43 percent to 42 percent, and the TV2 figure was down by 1 percent, to 17.9 percent. Overall, for both of our publicly owned television channels, 38 percent of the programmes that screened from 6 a.m. till midnight were New Zealand programmes\u2014in other words, 62 percent of the programmes were foreign. Frankly, that is appalling. In particular, what is the point of owning a television channel, TV2, when 83 percent of its programmes are foreign? We were assured that we would not see the same incessant diet of foreign programmes available on other channels. In fact, that is exactly what we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe television channels have managed to hide slightly the fact that we are actually going backwards in terms of New Zealand content, by setting voluntary quotas. That is basically a public relations exercise, where one sets a quota one would like, then trumpets that one has met the quota. But when I actually looked at the quotas, I found that Television One has reduced the quota it has set itself. It was 53 percent in 2003; in the last year, it has reduced the quota it has set itself to 52 percent. And TV2 has set itself a quota of 19 percent. We have to ask why TV2\u2014the channel that our young people watch\u2014is screening fewer than half the number of New Zealand programmes that Television One screens. It is quite extraordinary. The total number of first-run New Zealand programmes has gone down by 3 percent since the charter came into effect, in 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe have to ask ourselves what the point of it is. We are not getting more New Zealand programming; actually, we are getting less. Where has all that money gone? What was the $25 million spent on last year, if it was not spent on increased numbers of New Zealand programmes? It certainly was not spent on children\u2019s programming, which was something else we were assured we would have more of. In fact, TV2\u2019s children\u2019s programming was down by 115 hours to the lowest level in 5 years. Once again, we see a steady decline, and that is exactly the opposite of what we were assured would happen\u2014we were going to see more New Zealand programmes, and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EEveryone is asking where all the charter programmes are. People are talking about the fact that we seem to have an off-peak charter in that the charter is being met in off-peak hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb4ab96d5e174c32bd1373f1fb764721\u0022\u003EAuckland District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbd4eb5ec01c4a64ba3fe59a7ddc36e9\u0022\u003EBay of Plenty District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225781410e3a4541e190bf630c96d85e3c\u0022\u003ECanterbury District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b35fec486c1c4de480925f9962b2999c\u0022\u003ECapital and Coast District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a5a27d48ef7499399b863547854bc6f\u0022\u003ECounties Manukau District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dca073537a174bbf9870a9ddd6d16da8\u0022\u003EHawke\u0027s Bay District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f758d9b0cbb4b96b30333ae3fa0359b\u0022\u003EHutt Valley District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e57ad0efec50484789392c3050581ac2\u0022\u003ELakes District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d2440a9a2364055875fcc086094598f\u0022\u003EMidCentral District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ec6b87686634f38b943f218982fcbe5\u0022\u003ENelson Marlborough District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002259d82d391d794c7294c1cd2379363c54\u0022\u003ENorthland District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c51ff313332e4a43a452447f8cf7e238\u0022\u003EOtago District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222183e461d04a4c7eb50f47c9bcb65c05\u0022\u003ESouth Canterbury District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc55e529061345879ccb0b7c31c5066a\u0022\u003ESouthland District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f0a229eeaba41f18e024aacb2adb614\u0022\u003ETair\u0101whiti District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002238a3715da3144a03a9df7201a1f1aa17\u0022\u003ETaranaki District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a4bd16d35074acc9ae5f9a0fb971ebb\u0022\u003EWaikato District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022224e9034f1924c1ea13e0f5ebf75ddd0\u0022\u003EWairarapa District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef1b2ad745f84202ab30cb800483ee12\u0022\u003EWaitemat\u0101 District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022507c9e5329f74f66b217c566769b7921\u0022\u003EWest Coast District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e6b087888b344a8b20b38882dd35875\u0022\u003EWhanganui District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ab1390b403643a6b65c6fe47c712f90\u0022\u003EHealth Research Council of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221962f810ccd6413ca52a0f2f0086ecd4\u0022\u003EHealth Sponsorship Council\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc75c2a2d8e04f4eace5f4d8a2deae69\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Blood Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c9b7753666145aa9c4d623309c63040\u0022\u003EResidual Health Management Unit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002277e89c7a9aac452e839c42dfb077a059\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277e89c7a9aac452e839c42dfb077a059\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to speak in this very important debate on the financial reviews of Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises. It is very important to look at these reviews in the context of some of the things that politicians like Annette King and Helen Clark said in the 1990s. At that stage of events, they went around the country saying they would cut bureaucracy and blitz the waiting lists. They said that if they taxed people a little more, they could fix health and education. They said they would deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3575f8136274cf7ac0933b6251960df\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I just remind the member that we are talking about the estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a27cae5dae194302acfb8eaeeba538b5\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely agree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIf we look at the 2003-04 financial review of the Auckland District Health Board, what do we see in terms of delivery? We see that the board has a current deficit of $44.7 million. In 2002 the Minister of Heath told the Health Committee that there would be no deficits by 2005. They would be gone\u2014blitzed; nothing there. But what do we see in the report of the Health Committee? We see that in 2003-04 that board has a deficit of $44.7 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca78be6b9ea2490394ced87cbf3ec75c\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a517b68db1994417963d919e6b916312\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: It is $44.7 million, and according to our advice that is likely to increase in the 2004-05 financial year to more than $83.3 million. The Minister of Health, who is the Minister in the chair, told the select committee in 2002 that there would be no deficits in any of the health boards. She said the combined deficit would be nothing\u2014it would be blitzed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThat is just like what she said about the waiting lists during the 1990s. What do we know about the waiting lists in the district health boards in 2004? Let us just have a little snapshot, because the Minister is keen on snapshots. The number of patients waiting longer than 6 months for their first specialist assessment is 2,602. According to the Minister of Health, that is blitzing the waiting list! What about one of her other commitments about delivering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d93d00c5f94149b49e7fc3add247ae\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Scalpel!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eef5d71039342bd97d2f6cbf00ca886\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if only she had got the scalpel out and sorted them out! What about patients waiting without a commitment to treatment, and whose priorities are higher than the actual treatment threshold? These are patients who undoubtedly are pretty unwell, who are in pain and, often, are losing their vision. How many were there? There were 351. This is the Minister who said Labour would deliver and blitz the waiting list, and in the Auckland District Health Board in 2004, 1,261 patients were given a commitment to treatment but were not treated within 6 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThat is the sort of clarity that Annette King gave patients when she went tearing around the country in the 1990s, saying that Labour would blitz waiting lists, cut bureaucracy, and deliver results. But in the Auckland District Health Board in the year in question there were literally thousands of patients waiting for longer than 6 months\u2014patients who had worse situations than those required to receive treatment and who did not receive treatment, and patients who were given a commitment to treatment but were not treated within 6 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221bba886fe3641208ea7d9153468f215\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: There was a new hospital being built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226288f14070ec44bb9e1a2879943697b3\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there was a new hospital, and who went and opened it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278f049cb27334daa9d3f68ce01207027\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229606b762a0f147e1a31ab2a292ce3cff\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: We can guarantee that when someone does open it\u2014well, there is every chance that she will not get the chance. In 2 or 3 months\u2019 time, there will be a new Government. The Minister will blame the previous Government for any cost that might have accrued to Auckland City Hospital. It is as predictable as night following day that the Minister will once again not accept responsibility. She will blame the last National Government\u2014after 5 years and $3.3 billion. It is probably only $3 billion, I say to Mrs King, but to her that does not mean much, because she gets nothing from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00228b40a4c878b1467285450b42a9dda35a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b40a4c878b1467285450b42a9dda35a\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak in this State-owned enterprises debate, because this is a Government that has incredibly strong leadership. The important issue as we go into the election is that we have financial security, and that is what New Zealanders care about. This Government is committed to Crown entities and State-owned enterprises working together with industry and with the private sector to benefit all New Zealanders. I am proud of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EOur commitment to State-owned enterprises is not something we are going to flip-flop on or change our minds on. Our State-owned enterprises are working really well, and, before I talk about health, I would like to talk about Mighty River Power. In my own electorate it is working with industry\u2014Norske Skog\u2014to look at cogeneration of geothermal power. But our State-owned enterprises are also involved in social spending. Mighty River Power is involved in a \u201Cmaintain New Zealand\u201D partnership with the tertiary sector, the local college, and Norske Skog, and it is training maintenance engineers and has young kids doing apprenticeships. I think that is fantastic. Good on it! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe have looked at the Opposition\u2019s view of these State-owned enterprises. Dr Brash says that minor changes are not quite enough. John Key, on the other hand, knows that privatisation is a really, really toxic issue. But, what is more, they do not know quite where or what to target. I say they will move into icons like Kiwibank and New Zealand Post. Just watch this spot. I wonder how many electorate MPs in the Opposition have gone out and seen the wonderful initiatives undertaken by New Zealand Post. It is working with communities on such things as New Zealand Book Week for little schoolkids\u2014lovely, iconic brands like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI want to move on to which State-owned enterprises National will flick. I am deeply concerned about the health sector. I worked for 9 years under the National Government when it made its cuts. What did it cut? It cut the very things that made the difference to connecting communities together. National said that parenting courses were not part of maternity care any more. It said they were not part of core services, so it flicked them out to the private sector to see who picked them up. It is deeply worrying to me when National members talk about tax cuts that come to $1.9 billion. I have to look at health and ask what will go next. Of course, there is a very tidy package called the Working for Families package, which we really love because it targets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211049aab839e48eca0e033afbe2b1bc4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but this debate is about financial reviews. The member needs to come back to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022273e35f91dac48389afdf8536a70dea2\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: I will get back to the financial reviews, although I am talking about health, Madam Chair. I heard the Opposition talk about deficits. Under this Government, deficits in our district health boards are better than they have ever been. It is all right to go out there and give a promise, but do members know what Labour has given to this sector in terms of deficit management? It has given certainty. How did the Minister give financial certainty to the district health boards? She went out with a 3-year funding package. So for the first time for years the district health boards were able to actually get their heads around long-term security of funding. Funding was based on a population-based formula, so that it did target areas of deprivation and it did target inequalities in health status. Because of this good funding in health\u2014and it is a substantial increase in funding\u2014we are seeing reduced mortality rates and reduced morbidity. That is important to me. I would hate to see cuts to our funding of services of the kind that the Nats did when in office for those 9 years, when they said those things were no longer seen as core funded issues. They cut bits out and just funded what they believed Vote Health should actually support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIn health, I want to talk also about this \u201Cexploding public sector\u201D myth. In health let us just see what has gone. The Crown Company Monitoring Advisory Unit has gone, and the Health Funding Authority has gone. In health, the size of the State spend has reduced from 33.3 percent in 1999, down to 30.1 percent. So the exploding public sector is a myth. Labour members will counter those myths when we go out there in the election campaign, because we know that this sector is working well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002260ddb62e17c44a48930e93cf3fc135ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260ddb62e17c44a48930e93cf3fc135ce\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First members are very pleased to have seen increased funding for health Crown entities over the last 2 years. We want to see health funding reach levels that are comparable with other European nations such as France, which spends around 10 percent of its GDP on health. Dealing with the health sector is tough. It is at the coalface of society\u2019s ills, and it must deal not only with the physical but also with the emotional brunt of healing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EOne of the most disturbing studies over the past year has been a Treasury report showing that despite increased spending on health, the sector has falling productivity\u2014that is, fewer operations from more money. This report highlights the obsession within district health boards to balance the books no matter what, even if this does mean cutting some of the services. A clear example of this was the Nelson Marlborough District Health Board, which reduced the number of operations it was performing by 12 a week last October, when it was discovered that surgeons were performing more operations than were funded to be provided. So meeting the obligations of the balance sheets has come to mean vacancies and cutting staff, even in essential services. This is not the way to provide the First World health services that New Zealanders deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe must question many of the monitoring regimes, which are expensive and seem to be yielding few results, that are in place across the district health boards. Do not get me wrong; adherence to procedures and protocols is really important, but when it becomes an end in itself, rather than a means to an end, we begin to lose sight of why they are there in the first place. When we choose to keep increasing the number of accountants and auditors at our district health boards, rather than the number of doctors and nurses, we have a real problem. Given the advances of modern technology, both in medicine and in information technology, the health sector ought to be booming. Instead, it is barely managing a fizzle, in some areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EA second issue of major concern in the health sector is the training and retention of health practitioners across the whole range of professions. Hospitals are crying out for qualified doctors, surgeons, and other specialists. We know we have shortages of dental therapists, rural general practitioners, radiographers, and other technicians, and the list goes on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a3f4e26ed341b38772bd68f808cc5e\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: We need more immigrants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277e244911bf4265ab17018b86f3ccbe\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART\u003C/span\u003E: The member on the other side of the Chamber calls out for more immigrants. We actually want qualified immigrants\u2014people who can add to our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe have to face up to two simple facts in this area. The first is that we are in a global marketplace for these skills, and we are competing with Australia, the UK, and Canada. If we wish to maintain a First World health system, people who have those skills are absolutely essential, otherwise we are consigned to sending more and more of our patients on to waiting lists or offshore for treatment, and that is something that we definitely do not want to do. We need to develop some strategies to ensure that we have sufficient graduates in the areas of need. [Interruption] The Minister is acknowledging that we will do that. Secondly, we also have to face up to the reality that we have to pay First World wages if we are to have a First World health system. This could include options such as bonding graduates for a number of years, in return for writing off their student loans. It could also include targeting increased funding in health spending, specifically for pay rises for those parts of the sector that need them to retain staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EOne of the areas where we particularly want to see some action is that of adolescent oral health. Many teenagers cannot access dentists because the subsidy paid to dentists is insufficient. Parents often come to me and say that they cannot even get their child on to the dentist\u2019s waiting list, because the books are closed. The dentist has enough teenagers on his or her books, and cannot provide extra cheap services to any more. Another area we need to be more honest about confronting is the state of our mental health services. Dealing with those who have mental health difficulties is one of the most taxing areas covered in our health system, yet this is one aspect of health care that often has its budget cut and its staff numbers reduced, and its staff have substandard wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7269e357afd48c3b81fb04c6fc7ee0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7269e357afd48c3b81fb04c6fc7ee0d\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E As the previous speaker referred to, an interesting debate is emerging about why, despite all the funding that has been poured into the health sector over the last couple of years, Treasury reports falling productivity. Why could this be so? There are many speculations about why this might be so, but I believe that one of the key reasons is pointed to in a report that came out quite quietly last year from the Ministry of Health, called Looking Upstream: causes of death cross-classified by risk and condition New Zealand 1977. That report, quite extraordinarily, analyses the 20 top causes of death by risk factor in New Zealand. Diet is twice the risk factor of any other single risk factor. Poor diet is the cause of an estimated 30 percent of deaths in New Zealand. Somewhere between 9,000 and 11,000 deaths are caused by poor diet. No one believes me, so I have to take this chart with me when I go out, and show it to them. Then they finally believe me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESo if that is the case, what have we done about it over the last year or so of this Government? We have published a wonderful health strategy that does appear to be addressing the issues. It states the 13 population health objectives: improve nutrition, reduce obesity, increase the level of physical activity, reduce the impact of diabetes, improve oral health, and so on. When these population goals were announced, we were absolutely delighted. Then the Government announced that it was going to bring out a world-leading report on healthy eating and healthy action, and we were delighted with that, too. The Minister of Health has trumpeted it internationally, at the World Health Organization, saying: \u201CIsn\u2019t this wonderful?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut the problem is that we have this major initiative, this Healthy Eating - Healthy Action, but when we look at the books, alas there is not any funding for this wonderful new initiative. Thirty percent of deaths are caused by poor nutrition and poor diet, and this strategy states that it is going to focus on this issue. We have these population health goals. One would think that this flagship strategy would have some new funding, but alas there is none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESure, some district health boards\u2014and I have met them\u2014in some parts of New Zealand are beginning to get their heads around the issue, and there are some positive initiatives, particularly in the Waikato and in Manukau, but basically the Government has no specific funding for it. One would think that if this were the overwhelming cause of death in New Zealand, way more than road deaths and all the other issues we tend to focus on, there would be a national strategy, a huge new programme, but alas there is none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI have just touched on one issue of big concern. The second issue concerns Pharmac. The Green Party strongly supports Pharmac. We are concerned that a big public relations campaign is developing against Pharmac and against its single-supply contracts. We saw that earlier in the year when some public relations people visited me, and I could see it coming. Suddenly, and it does not surprise me at all, some parties in this House, like United Future, rose up and became part of this campaign to undermine Pharmac and its single-supplier contract. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe do acknowledge that there are all sorts of issues that we would like to see improved with Pharmac. There is great room for improvement, but we are concerned that there seems to be an across-the-board strategy to undermine it, and that is a real concern from a fiscal point of view, and many other points of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to talk about how the Government is quietly working without any political mandate to hand over the control of our dietary supplements and our pharmaceuticals to a trans-Tasman therapeutic goods agency in Australia. It has no mandate for that whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022560c5ad427914a50bce423923c5dd392\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022560c5ad427914a50bce423923c5dd392\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E A few speakers ago we heard the member for Rotorua, Steve Chadwick, say that one of the achievements of this Labour Government was that it had given certainty. I say: \u201CTell that to the 25,000 patients taken off the waiting lists in 2003 by the Minister of Health, Annette King, and sent to a life of absolute uncertainty.\u201D And I also say: \u201CTell that to the Auckland District Health Board.\u201D, which, in this financial review, is recorded as having a deficit of $44.7 million, and there is a prediction that by 2004-05 it will be $83 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Health came to the select committee and said that she did not believe that. She said that the Minister of Finance and she had got together and they just did not accept that there would be a $100 million deficit by the end of the year. But let us look at the letters the Minister of Finance sent to the Hon Annette King in 2003, in which he stated: \u201CIt will be important that the additional funding leads to increases in outputs and is not absorbed by cost increases. My officials will be working with the ministry to put in place appropriate accountability and monitoring measures to address this issue. \u2026 Output activity data continues to support our shared concern about productivity in the health sector. Analysis of Ministry of Health data suggests that despite significant revenue increases\u201D\u2014significant amounting to about $3 billion\u2014\u201Cvolumes in the sector are static, if not declining.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESo when the member for Rotorua talks about certainty, when she just happens to forget that 25,000 patients were culled from the waiting lists to spend the rest of their time in uncertainty\u2014and then again on 1 April this year at the Counties Manukau District Health Board another 2,000 were taken off the waiting list to live a life of uncertainty\u2014[Interruption] We hear Moana Mackey, the pretender for East Coast, and what happened at the Tair\u0101whiti District Health Board? It took 596 patients who had been waiting longer than 6 months for a first specialist assessment to get to square one and send them back to their general practitioners. What does the Minister say? She says they will be monitored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhen I spoke to one of the patients, Peggy Griffiths, who had been thrown off the waiting list at the Counties Manukau District Health Board, she told me that no one had said how and when she would be monitored. The Minister of Health will say that she is now back on the waiting list. It took a huge amount of effort by me to bring it to the attention of this House, and suddenly and mysteriously Peggy Griffiths is back on the waiting list\u2014and the Minister of Health will claim credit for that! First, she cuts people off waiting lists, causes the huge disappointment and uncertainty to people of just not knowing what was going on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee46666bd064da484af6c505b6aabd8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Have you got more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c659639cbec40d58cd89c3478a493b7\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there are eight or nine. I have a little file. Members can imagine that every time I bring those people up, they will suddenly and mysteriously be put back on those waiting lists! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhile we are talking about the Auckland District Health Board, it will be helpful to say just what a professor of surgery had to say about this Minister\u2019s interpretation of the waiting lists: \u201CSo now patients are culled upfront and those accepted for surgery are still required to wait, just like the old-day waiting list. A double jeopardy now exists. The elective surgical booking system has degenerated into the elective surgical blocking system. The Ministry of Health has some explaining to do itself. Blaming health boards is a patent distraction ploy.\u201D It is one of the things this Minister of Health has become an absolute mistress of: perpetrating the patent distraction ploy. She is an absolute mistress of that particular performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae036dbeef645d9b24e27bb15c368ed\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a career option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022092f46fb9a5e4e9e933d078d3621deeb\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: There is a career option. I shall talk about some of the other things that have plagued the Auckland District Health Board with its predicted deficit of $83 million when the Minister said there would be no deficit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00221e2dc8c229dd4d92a76a9a8e3ecf2622\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e2dc8c229dd4d92a76a9a8e3ecf2622\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I should say upfront that none of this is personal about the Minister of Health. I actually quite like Annette King. I think that she is a lovely lady and is good fun, but I have to say that she is the most inept Minister of Health we have ever had. We see that from the data we now have before us in this country. While we are doing the financial reviews, I shall take members through the Treasury report. It is damning of Annette King, and I shall read from it. The report is to the Minister of Finance, Michael Cullen, and it states: \u201CThe current oversubscription reinforces the importance of not only managing the immediate pressures back but of addressing the unsustainable growth path of health spending over the longer term. Treasury advises that you\u201D\u2014that means Michael Cullen\u2014\u201Crequest the Minister of Health to manage within her allocation, and that you defer any consideration of the roll-out of future allocations until the sustainability work has been completed.\u201D The concern there was that the current expenditure path is totally unsustainable, and Treasury went on to recommend that the Minister, Annette King, resubmit her budget, providing \u201Ca reprioritisation of her current proposals so that total expenditure comes within the allocation, and a demonstration of how she will manage known risks so that expenditure remains within the agreed funding track.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhy did Treasury recommend that? Because that Minister cannot manage. That Minister has taken the expenditure on health up to $3.6 billion a year and produced worse outcomes than previously. She has actually produced worse outcomes. She has increased expenditure by 57 percent. The number of operations has increased by 1.3 percent. [Interruption] Government members do not like to hear their own numbers. The number of operations has increased by only 1.3 percent. [Interruption] They do not like it, do they? They do not like to hear their own numbers come back. We know that Steve Chadwick, the chair of the Health Committee, said in this Chamber last week that no New Zealanders on the health waiting list were in pain\u2014that is what she thinks. We know that Annette King has totally failed. Why? She told the National Party that to have 96,000 people on the waiting list was \u201Ccriminal\u201D. How many people are on the health waiting list now? There are 180,000 people on the health waiting list. They are queued up, waiting to get on the waiting list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHere is another thing. Annette King said to the Health Committee that she would take the district health board deficits down to zero. What happened? What is the deficit at the Auckland District Health Board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e98097f587941c9877ab6688984ef52\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: $83.4 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5b354a353f4999b37602cd4354a952\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Annette King poured money in and got no result. I am afraid that as a Minister, she is a total failure. That is why $3.5 billion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296261925ebdc4fe19f3c94a9ea55c818\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Louder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a3b252b13614349bf3e3236c1d0365d\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister asks me to speak louder. She should actually ask her colleagues not to set up a barrage of interjections\u2014I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It is not about whether I can take it; it is about the Chair. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6f3bfbbe18412c84e6a1b86f383d4c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. The member knows very well there will be silence during points of order. That is the final warning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b387b86e4dff4eea874209e078908986\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. That is the problem. You are not applying the rules at any stage. The Government whip just called out during a point of order. Opposition members are invariably asked to leave when they do that. It is against the Standing Orders to set up a barrage. I am having to speak through six Government members, who are not actually interjecting. That would be one thing, but they are just calling out a barrage, so no one can hear me speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022430e454a685c4c8db6ad50f5b407fd8e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard your point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc00e880c4446f972b0c6073cff155\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not finished on my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259e2ed421a024e398242c6678b7d580c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard your point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022455d026d7db84553946be649d8fb771a\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you will hear another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271f66cc4b4b3499d96058204a003f871\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, I have heard your point of order. When I get to my feet, you must sit down. I accept that there was barracking and that it was too much. I ask members to refrain from barracking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2fcd3e3ff2c4afdab691b0f2b5a23c0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. The Government whip called out during my point of order. The rule that has been set down on that by the Speaker is very clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d62bcca75ca7473c8fbab79d8e7a5f7a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I have dealt with that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6052274c2e849958820fac2be647181\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a257a9e2988e49c280f0ac3ea4f73f05\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, please continue your speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eca400c8d0e4a08b5a784f020bbefb5\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ec8f1131a734f79b6e16dbe225ac59a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I have dealt with the point of order that was raised, and I have spoken to the Government whip and given a general warning. There was a lot of barracking going on from all sides. I have spoken about that. Mr Hide, I ask you to continue your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022163651453f97487eac6572af35ba4569\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I want you to explain to me the rules. There was a lot of barracking, but not from all sides; it was only from the Government side. My point of order about the Government whip calling out is that there was no barracking while I made my point of order. There was one interjection from a Government whip. The rules that have been set down in this House are very clear. Whenever an Opposition MP calls out during a point of order, the member is immediately shot out of the Chamber. Madam Chairperson, I would like you to explain why the Government whip, who should be setting the standard and certainly should be held to the same standard as other MPs, is allowed to get away with that. What is the difference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022330beb3020854a60a56b928a0300965b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I give you another warning about raising points of order that are not points of order. When I have dealt with a point of order, that is the end of the matter. I have dealt with that point of order. There was a lot of barracking. I have dealt with the two points of order that you raised. I give you a warning that raising points of order that are not points of order is, in itself, disorderly. I now ask you to continue your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210460b32ad1a475492abe897a6a14096\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222192de59d1a94cefa5de21b82b268d5c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, please be seated. Your point of order will be heard if it is a new point of order. You will not relitigate the two rulings that I have given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022733434b1f9de43da8bed4ff3eba9b28b\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not relitigating your ruling. I want to understand what you are applying here. You have not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cecca0bb3e864c818e55da4a615740e1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, you will be seated, please. You are relitigating my rulings, and I ask you to continue with your speech. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2ac21c7264841e88954b53e0930c30f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. So what we see from this Labour Government\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a4ede3cb3b44229a336aafa52dd3639\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9d9c7f830744fd1bc075b885c946881\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: So what we see from this Government\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3bf98287864df6a1a92cba9d83b3b4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I had asked that the barraging stop. I want Mr Hide to continue his speech in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bdeee842b2a4e12b7c4cd06ec52cd0c\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb4b46b5bf04eb5bda30f0a1d9b8fa1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the point I have dealt with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022643fde3fa9234d8485f064f591e7b8af\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is a new one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1f1332d5d084630a0a16ec0fb5ecf68\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223115432588c4407dbd77d4b2d04be24e\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: When Darren Hughes called out, he was in direct defiance of your ruling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d352377b334d689d2069f9033dc3e3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, please be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201d395ca1484ee38fa287627b04ffcf\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I have not finished my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56bdd6c170f4a46b76fe6ad36277476\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated, Mr Hide. As you know, interjections are tolerated. There was an interjection and then another one. When the second one was called out\u2014although it was not barracking from one person\u2014because there had been a lot previously, I said you could continue your speech in silence. I expect there to be silence. That matter has been dealt with. I warn you again not to trifle with the Chair\u2014not to relitigate the ruling I have given. Please continue with your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225232066c961a424d955f4bf9a8378fb3\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. My point of order is this, and you have not yet heard it. You gave a ruling, and you said there was to be no barracking. I sat down. Immediately, Darren Hughes barracked. That was not an interjection. You silenced him. I stood up to speak again. He immediately barracked. He is still in the Chamber, and I say he is the member who is defying the Chair, not me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210305502fddc4d5da3570dc7ffab152a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, I will give you one final warning. You are relitigating what I have already ruled on. Please continue with your speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7f3a8edefac4c45a28fa97ba5e8d6e9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I have sat quietly and watched this interesting exchange. I think the problem we have here is that it appears that Mr Hughes has moved to another seat in order to gain advantage from the microphone being closer to you. There is no doubt that your instruction was that Mr Hide would be heard in silence. Then Mr Hughes\u2014the very young member that he is, and with perhaps a slightly impetuous nature\u2014barked quite loudly towards Mr Hide. I think at least some rebuke of Mr Hughes would be necessary. He may even like to resume his own seat, which is much further away from the interference zone than where he is currently sitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d2744d211c34b24be1e9a22a7c45259\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his assistance. However, I have dealt with the matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227086658a615e4866b4c66b2d840c7da6\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: What we see from this Labour Government is an inability for the Minister of Health to front up to the big issues. We have to have Trevor Mallard, Darren Hughes, and the fishmonger\u2019s wife, Jill Pettis, stand up here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f96cc971932d461c87bf2f8b8c8fb9da\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am sure you heard what that member said, and I am surprised you are not on your feet already to deal with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201409145bb58461287eea4604b731913\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is not acceptable. Members are to be called by their correct name. I ask the member to withdraw and apologise for that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0675eba63cb489f983f7540f769eade\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de6ed145f24740a9b0a562d2841b52cc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. The Chair cannot anticipate a speaker. From where I am sitting, I clearly took the inference that after the name \u201CJill Pettis\u201D there was a full stop, and there was then the start of a new sentence, which was not allowed to progress because of the point of order raised by Trevor Mallard. I would be quite interested to know what Mr Hide has to say about the fishwife. I am sure there is a lot more to come. I am sure it is not offensive to the Committee, and I say that Mr Mallard should be asked to contain himself until he understands the circumstances in which any particular comment is made. I notice that Mrs Pettis also understood there was a full stop after her name. She certainly does not look offended, to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c223b5ebb804220b6d0ae9f1a94dc89\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I just warn the member. Please be seated. I am dealing with this point of order, which was not a point of order. Mr Brownlee, that came close to trifling with the Chair. I had dealt with the matter. The member had apologised. I ask the member to continue his speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299d54df85f30446a871f2b9ce5594f26\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. We may have a dilemma here. You have ruled, and I am not questioning your ruling, that the member should be heard in silence. The issue then arises that those of us who are offended against by, for instance, Mr Hide\u2019s last reference to a particular member are then precluded from any retaliation at all. I am not challenging your ruling. I just seek your advice. When it is ruled that a member of Parliament should be heard in silence, that is fair, but if that member then decides to hurl abuse and make derogatory comments, or to use derogatory names about members on any side of the Chamber, those members have no option regarding that and cannot retaliate. I seek your advice on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271f287b4348e4174a466a08efb75774c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I just make this point. The members, I believe, overdid their interjections, and that is why I asked that the member be heard in silence. That is the price to be paid. However, the point of order that was raised by Mr Mallard was dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee1b06513dba4500be884e923e56ade3\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I just ask you to clarify the rules of this debate. Is my understanding correct that this is a fixed 3-hour debate and that all these points of order have come out of the time that the Opposition has to scrutinise the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252869c0c09f4497ebcd74ccd73d9523e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is correct. It is a fixed 3-hour timed debate. This time comes off the members\u2019 time, so we have probably wasted the equivalent of one speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a86a54f8074d2a8b366f4261b8c97b\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The fishmonger\u2019s wife too is stuck on the waiting list. That is the trouble. We have 180,000 New Zealanders stuck on the waiting list. The fishmonger\u2019s wife, the cobbler\u2019s wife, and the baker\u2019s wife are all stuck on the health waiting list, and here we have Steve Chadwick\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295123b9662f9472da2a7d0fb66dfa340\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we can change our occupations, but you will be out of here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022319458194bbd40159b69cda909949966\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Order, Jill Pettis! Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1f68eb854db4437aac572773e3d2691\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I stopped, and because you were talking I sat down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223513bcbcccca48e2a04050753b43754b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Your speech time had finished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226110d4fb37d747a48a93d66ecc75b7ed\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but I am interested in why you were talking over my speech while my time was still going, over the microphone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022669c1ef2c733441b9c297e9f8578deea\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I was calling for order. Your speech time had finished, and I wanted to call the next speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236952258236342ba99dd3ee5be93ab15\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Is Jill Pettis in trouble, or does she get away with that one, too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022676966c1c4b54d9c84c72a9141b9c458\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Tell him to dry up. Grow up!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2950fc76631433c99cdbb3079f60252\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. I warn the member. Mr Hide, I have dealt with the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00220d7751c69a7244178527f971bc6ea397\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d7751c69a7244178527f971bc6ea397\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens are pleased to see in the supplementary estimates that some further money has been invested in the area of problem gambling and the enforcement of the gambling regulations, although it is not enough to curb the social and economic harm caused by the proliferation of gambling opportunities, including, particularly, pokie machines. My colleague Sue Bradford has been a strong and effective advocate for responsible gambling laws in this country that provide the greatest possible protection to our community from the harms of gambling. Sadly, this protection does not yet exist in our law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIn the health supplementary estimates there is $2.4 million for the funding of costs related to the administration of the problem gambling levy. That levy remains very small when compared with the profits derived from gambling The gambling industry has, of course, a massive vested interest in keeping the problem gambling levy as low as possible. Many of the industry\u2019s representatives have argued that the scale of the gambling problem is exaggerated, and that the cost of dealing with it is overrated. But in 2003 gamblers in this country lost a record $2 billion\u2014an increase of 9 percent on the year before. That is $5 million a day in this country, much of which is taken out of the homes of some of our lowest-income families. The industry continues to complain about the levy, and, clearly, wants to keep problem gambling strategies focused on treatment, rather than on the additional public health goals of health promotion and harm minimisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe need only recall the case a couple of years ago of the pokie-machine outlet, money-lending business, and problem gambling treatment centre all within the same building complex, and all associated with the same single director\u2014a lucrative immoral ring of business interests. We need only recall the pokie-machine bar in the \u014Ctara shopping centre that contributed to the costs of a fenced children\u2019s playground right outside the front door of that pokie bar. Or we need only recall the objection by the gambling industry to the regulations requiring pokie machines to display how long a person has played and how much money he or she has lost, to know that the industry is committed to the maximisation of its profits, and not the minimisation of social and economic harms from gambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ESky City recently wailed about how these regulations would lose it money\u2014regulations that will affect all new slot machines after 1 October this year, and all machines from 2009. This company has over 2,000 gaming machines in New Zealand, with a forecast annual profit of $100 million. This complaint was despite the Government figures that show that New Zealand has 100,000 problem gamblers, who contribute $2 billion to that industry. Eighty percent of people who come in for treatment from the Problem Gambling Foundation say that they have a problem with pokie machines; for M\u0101ori women, the figure is 96 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe fact that the proceeds of pokie addictions are then used for the benefit of all sorts of worthy causes should not be an excuse for any values-based group to continue to endorse this industry. The Greens would like the many community organisations that now rely on the proceeds of human misery for their continued survival to consider other funding options, and for Government and other non-gambling funders to better resource the sector, so that groups do not feel obliged to depend on the addictions and desperation of some of our poorest people for the pursuance of their good works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EDespite some of the minor improvements over the last 6 months\u2014and we note the increase in the Vote Internal Affairs supplementary estimates of $1.17 million to enforce the new regulations in the Gambling Act\u2014the levy and the legislation so far are not enough to deal with these harms. The Greens want to see much greater reduction in the number of pokie machines operating in this country, and a total revamp of the way the profits of those that remain are distributed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022d98404d402a84c059e957a94280b7246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d98404d402a84c059e957a94280b7246\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank members for their contributions to the debate on the performance of Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises. It was interesting that both the National member and the ACT member raised the much-maligned Treasury report. Of course, if we were to believe Mr Hide, everything that Treasury wrote would be absolute gospel, although I note that he does not take much account of Treasury\u2019s report when it comes to its views on private insurance. However, those members quoted the much-maligned Treasury report and talked of falling productivity. Of course, what that report tells us, and what Treasury says, is that at this stage it is able to measure only about 46 percent of hospital activity, and it is not able even to measure what happens in the primary health sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIt goes on to state that 60 percent of the costs are the wages of those who work within the health sector. I make no excuse for saying that the wages in the health sector have gone up\u2014so they should. I think it was Barbara Stewart\u2014and she always makes a considered intervention in this House\u2014who said how important it is for us to retain our health workforce. Well, we do not retain our health workforce in an international market if we do not increase wages and salaries. So the settlement for nurses, which is backdated to last year and going forward, is half a billion dollars. It is the biggest increase that nurses in this country have had at any time, and they have fought for it for a decade. Past Ministers of Health know exactly what the campaign has been over that time. It has been settled, and I am proud that nurses will have that increased pay\u2014they deserve it. I also tell members that over the last 3 years doctors in the hospital system have had about a 50 percent increase in pay. We needed to do that, to retain our medical workforce. I make no apologies for spending health money on that, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI also make no apologies for investing in new hospitals and rebuilding old hospitals. It was absolutely crucial because, in terms of the hospital sector, we actually have to have the bricks and mortar in order to provide the health service. We have put money into that. I believe that we are now seeing a health system that has had the investment in it that it needed. In fact, if we look at investment in health throughout the 1990s we can see that, in comparison with OECD countries, we under-invested in health. We needed to catch up, and we certainly have been doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDr Hutchison talked of deficits. I remind the Committee that under the previous Government, deficits reached 5 percent of the Health vote. They are now 1 percent of the Health vote. By anyone\u2019s measure, that is an improvement. We have seen nearly every board in New Zealand reduce its deficit, with the exception of Auckland, and Auckland remains a particular problem. Many issues impact on Auckland, not least the impact of a building project that did not realise the $80 million of saving that was promised. It did not come about. However, the board is working very carefully on the issue, and we believe that it will reduce its deficit this year, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDr Hutchison mentioned the booking system. I think Bill English will be very disappointed in Dr Hutchison\u2019s view on this. After all, it was introduced in 1998. I think the booking system is a good system because it is honest and it is fair. It tells people whether they will get an operation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022038e2eb6cbf04508a1efeca2bf8f584f\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what you used to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c5c418a2d74b7d8c22780b48c39dcb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly is. Let me tell the member this: in 1999, 40 percent of those who were waiting for their first specialist assessment waited longer than 6 months. That figure now is 21 percent. It is getting better. I admit that when we started, we started from a low base and it had to be built up. The system, I believe, is one of the best we can have in terms of being fair about elective surgery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDr Hutchison mentioned bureaucracy. There has been an increase in staff of district health boards. In fact, the biggest increase has been in nurses. The next-biggest increase has been in doctors. In fact, the total increase in the number of bureaucrats in the health system has been 0.4 percent. Those are the facts. Opposition members talk about the bureaucrats, but the people they call bureaucrats are those who book the operations, answer the telephones, and help to run the system. Those members would have us get rid of people who help to make the system work. National would turn the funding for that handful of people into \u201Cfunding for health\u201D. Well, it would be lucky to get much out of that, I have to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI then heard Barbara Stewart talk about workforce issues. I agree with her. We have put a lot of investment into trying to improve our health workforce. To begin with, we reopened two training schools for dental therapists in 2001 and 2002. I know that it sounds amazing to the member, but all the training schools were closed in the 1990s; no dental therapy training schools were left in New Zealand. I am not quite sure how we were going to provide the service. Perhaps we were going to employ therapists until they were 99 years old; we certainly were not going to produce any more. It now takes 3 years to train a dental therapist\u2014there is a degree course. We had our first graduates out of the Otago school last year, and we had our first graduates out of the Auckland school this year, but we need at least 40 graduates per year to provide oral health to the children and adolescents of New Zealand. We will get there, but we have to invest in training. We have to be committed to training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe have also increased the number of medical students by 40 per year\u2014the first increase since 1981. We actually have a much better grasp on those health workforce issues. We were training only 16 radiation therapists per year; we now train 38, and for the first time we can provide radiation treatment in New Zealand within the guidelines. It is fragile. We have to keep training and producing them for our own needs. It has taken a huge investment of money and energy to try to rebuild our health workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThen we heard from the very, very sad member Rodney Hide. I actually pity that member. I have great pity for him, because he is now a very bitter, twisted, and thwarted man. He has been thwarted by his own party, actually. He had to spend the whole weekend stopping his members from getting rid of him. He has decided that he will go on a crusade on health. The unfortunate thing is that he is unable to put the facts out in a straight manner, which means that people do not believe him. He over-exaggerates and overcooks everything, and the consequence is that nobody believes him and nobody takes notice of him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EHe talked about the sustainability of health expenditure. Certainly, there has been a big investment in health over these 6 years. I have already talked about the need to invest in our health workforce, infrastructure, and so on, and also in our primary health care, where we will get the results we want. But there does need to be a look at the sustainability of health funding in the long term. The Prime Minister announced at the beginning of this year that work would be done on the long-term sustainability of health funding. That work is now under way. It will be done properly, and I can assure this Committee that the Government will go through each part of that expenditure in order to get the best use of it. It will not be done with slogans and smart statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI conclude with reference to the Green member Sue Kedgley. She talked of the Healthy Eating - Healthy Action strategy. It is a nationwide strategy. It is not about a few people in the ministry trying to run a strategy around healthy eating and healthy action. It actually happens out in our communities, in homes, and in schools. It is about engaging all those players, in getting through the message on healthy eating and healthy action. I believe that as one of the first countries\u2014if not the first country\u2014in the world to put such a strategy in place, we will address those issues over time. But there is no quick fix solution to the fact that there are obese and overweight people in New Zealand. We have a growing number of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc0624f172d94f70bfa52b8e85381a92\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, where?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278179b7631004ef496cc2dcc0fdccbb8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Gerry Brownlee that I could not possibly say I see any of them in this Chamber\u2014I know that he is asking where they are. We have a few folk who are overweight, and, unfortunately, far too many children are overweight. There is funding, and action taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that very rarely do I agree with Sue Kedgley in any debate, but that I totally agree with her comments about Pharmac. She said that she supports Pharmac, that it does a very good job, and that there is a campaign to get it. I support her, and I believe that she is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EReports noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce0c35b35ed54bdbbb8b0fd5838c5c99\u0022\u003ECareer Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbdcb65c1c144cc8b5d3c70abc43d42f\u0022\u003ELearning Media Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002295c550f83c1d4e0fb2ff2a5d3141a320\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Qualifications Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9f4ebaaca044bdaa74efb680663fad0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Teachers Council\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022274d1cebc6e74df4af6775dee27f0c62\u0022\u003ETertiary Education Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e05944b2d97e41bc883336fd84d941c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e05944b2d97e41bc883336fd84d941c7\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to raise some issues with the Minister, Trevor Mallard, about the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. The board has decided to appoint Ms Karen Sewell as the acting chief executive officer. I ask the Minister to tell me whether this is the same Ms Karen Sewell who used to be the principal of Green Bay High School. The community around that school thinks that it will take at least another 5 years to clean up the mess she left. I know that she has been running the Education Review Office\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed4470f08f914b86bef70abbc84cccec\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e6a76f21e9f412f8bab9e21ba009950\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Education Review Office reports are sounding more and more like old-style primary school reports than they ever used to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister to tell us why he thinks that that appointment will restore any confidence in the role of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority in administering our secondary school qualifications. I can tell the Minister that my feedback has been that it will not. That lack of confidence will be built on by his silly initiatives today. Is it not just so much the Labour Government that when there is a serious issue with exams and assessments for our secondary school students, it spends months and months chewing it over and then comes up with the solution of having a workshop and a seminar? The other thing it will do is put out a pamphlet. This Minister thinks that less time spent teaching and more time spent putting out taxpayer-funded spin will fix confidence in the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA). I want to know why he thinks that that will be the case. I want him to tell us how he will explain to parents that sending teachers off to more workshops and more seminars is the answer for NCEA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt is time the Minister accepted that there are a couple of critical problems. The first is that the assessment is not consistent and valid, and the second is that NCEA is not manageable. It needs more resources at the margin than are worth it. The Minister should just fix those problems. Instead, we have gone back to the line that this Minister has taken right from the day he took the job\u2014that any people who do not like NCEA or think there is a problem with it do not understand it and, therefore, must be stupid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db3bcdb7477c42d785441f1b1e2ea591\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, just this member is stupid, not everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd95b9299ba94a569fb3173c28358be0\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: He thinks they are all stupid, so the Government will send them a pamphlet in the mail that will tell them that NCEA is actually fine. Then they will think that the Government is fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231bbbde077d49838018f45b45c01166\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If they can read.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b4da786df94b2d93b24dbea27daab8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: If they can read\u2014they are the lucky ones. I want the Minister to tell us a bit about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI also want the Minister to tell us what his plans are for the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. I will give him a little bit of advice, if he is still thinking about those plans. He should not roll the New Zealand Qualifications Authority into the Ministry of Education. That would be a mistake. If the qualifications framework is going to work, then it needs to be administered by a body with statutory independence so that we do not see happening to the New Zealand Qualifications Authority what has happened to the Tertiary Education Commission, whereby the Government is shamelessly manipulating the funding levers to meet its own political requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E The qualifications framework is important for New Zealand. It should be kept separate and at arm\u2019s length from political intervention, and that means running an independent statutory body in the way the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is set up now. If the Minister rolls it into the Ministry of Education, that will do more than anything else to undermine the existing bipartisan support for the qualifications framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b233e1d0d4954629b4f30acb0ad14aac\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we\u2019ve really noticed that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022494fbc455b48412e9c38b9380efc25a3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister knows that NCEA is only part of it. Of course there are questions about the quality of what is in that framework, but the concept of the framework itself is supported by both parties. So I tell the Minister not to roll it into the Ministry of Education. That would simply put it under the control of people who have already made a mess of NCEA policy. Why give them the job of administering this as well? I am sure that if the Minister persists until the election he will not get a permanent chief executive officer. But as the new Minister after the election I will be able to get a new chief executive officer for the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, because National will take a set of measures designed to increase the credibility of the qualification. [Interruption] Well, when the board sees a Government getting to grips with community concerns about the qualification, it will be able to go to potential chief executive officers with some confidence, whereas at the moment it is out there trying to recruit people to resuscitate a body that is on life support. Of course that is not a particularly attractive job. I want the Minister to explain to us also the rise in costs in the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and other bureaucracies, because that is where he is spending all his money, instead of in the schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00227232aaeebbe445ba9ebd9cea4cbbe8a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227232aaeebbe445ba9ebd9cea4cbbe8a6\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to focus my attention upon the same agency. There are some genuine difficulties with this particular agency. As the report on the 2003-04 financial review notes, during that period of time the New Zealand Qualifications Authority faced the challenge of simultaneously trying to introduce both level 3 National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) and the scholarship examinations. When the review was carried out in February this year, we were right in the middle of the scholarship debacle. That exposed also some serious flaws in NCEA level 1, level 2, and level 3, particularly with regard to the variability of results. It has to be said that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority simply did not rise to the challenge it faced in the financial year under review. What is even more serious is that we do not believe it has faced up to the real problems that created the debacle at the end of last year and the beginning of this year, and we believe and predict that as a result of it not being prepared to face up to the issues, another debacle will occur at the end of this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe real problem is the fact that the agency has focused absolutely on standards-based assessment and has not recognised the limitations of that assessment. For example, something like 300 out of 900 students who sat the English scholarship examinations got a scholarship, but only nine out of 1,000 biology students got a scholarship. The authority tried to argue that that is because there was variability amongst the students. It is absolute bunkum to say that 33 percent of the students studying English were able to meet certain standards and only 0.9 percent of those studying biology were able to meet the standards. That raises some very, very serious questions about the whole underlying premise upon which the authority set the examinations. That is its task: to set the assessment tasks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI have to say that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has appeared before the Education and Science Committee and been reviewed more often than any other agency, and with very good cause. Phil Smith, who is the immediate past-president of the New Zealand Post Primary Teachers Association, made a very telling statement. He said: \u201CIf only NZQA had applied the same level of quality assurance to its own processes as it insisted that schools apply to their processes, then we would not be in the difficulties we are.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister of Education that one of the things that has come through\u2014and, as I think the Minister knows, I am not somebody who goes out and tries to attack people; I try to get to the root of a problem\u2014is that this is the most untidy organisation I have ever come across. The information that is received from it by the select committee is, time and time again, purely and simply inadequately prepared. It has not been considered and researched. We saw flow charts, for example, that had examiners being trained before they had actually been appointed, chronologically. When we pointed this out to the people from the New Zealand Qualifications Authority they said: \u201COh, we got that one wrong.\u201D It has been a continual litany of errors from this particular agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe have the sequence of events that led to the announcement of the Level 3 Distinction Award, which is all reported in the review report. The issue is that on 17 January this agency reported the variability of the results to the Minister by email. It did not red-flag it. OK, that might have been a mistake\u2014it is certainly untidy, at least. But almost 1 month later the chief executive officer could not explain why it was not red-flagged. A month after that error, which had caused the Ministers considerable embarrassment, the chief executive officer still could not explain why that matter had not been red-flagged. That suggests to me that there are some systemic problems within this organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EExplanations have been given for the variation in results. These are, I have to say, absolute and utter bunkum. They do not make any educational or scientific sense. Yet the public, the Minister, and we in Parliament are expected to accept that these are the rationales and that these are the proper processes. I say to the Minister that he has to take responsibility for this agency. He did not set it up. In fact, this Government did not set it up or create its culture; that was done by the previous National Government. But this Government has been administering the agency for 5 years and should have fixed it before now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c221633bc8c84b46b8742693ea4fdd92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c221633bc8c84b46b8742693ea4fdd92\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I, too, want to address concerns about the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. These are not just the concerns of this House; they are the concerns of parents all over New Zealand. Since 1990, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has held itself up as a world leader in assessment; that is what it says it is. It has foisted on us the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA), which parents now call \u201CNo Chance of Ever Achieving\u201D. The New Zealand Qualifications Authority does not even know what world standards are; it is not even interested in world standards. The NCEA scholarship has been a disaster. NCEA levels 1, 2, and 3 have been a disaster. As the Hon Brian Donnelly said, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has been reviewed, reviewed, and reviewed. The State Services Commission review set terms of reference relating to standards, processes, and communication. These things should have been in the system long before it got to the stage of a State Services Commission review. They are all basic things that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority could not even get right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is to provide \u201Cquality assured qualifications\u201D. What other Crown entity is the subject of a Tui billboard? This Tui billboard ridicules one of our most important secondary school qualifications. It says: \u201CI past NCEA Inglish. Yeah, right.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EHow shameful for a Crown entity that holds itself up as a world leader in education standards to be the butt of a joke on a billboard that advertises beer! That is about how far it has gone. The chairman, Mr Fraser, has gone. The chief executive officer, Karen Van Rooyen, has gone. The Ministers will not take responsibility for the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. We now have an acting chief executive, Karen Sewell, who, I am reliably informed, is a very nice person. But, as one prominent New Zealand principal likes to say, she was on her way to turning Green Bay High School into the only sole-charge high school in New Zealand. Parents took their children away from that school in droves. There were no standards at that school. In fact, it was so bad that when the zoning boundaries were redrawn, $50,000 was immediately, overnight, wiped off the value of properties that were brought into the zone of Green Bay High School. That is how bad it was. And now this Minister has allowed his board to appoint someone like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E The problem is that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is so bad now, and the level has reached such a poor standard, that it will be well-nigh impossible to attract anyone of quality to that position. Who would want to be handed a hospital pass like that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWhat does the New Zealand Qualifications Authority cost us? In 2003 the Government threw $30 million at it. The Minister said that all the problems were due to not enough resources, and that it just needed more money. What did the Government do? It threw $52 million more at it in 2004. What was it, I ask the Minister\u2014double or quits? Just keep throwing millions at it, and all the problems will go away? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s solution to everything is to just shovel more money at it. Students already pay to sit their qualifications. Despite that, when students were very kindly invited by the Minister to be reassessed in the NCEA scholarship disaster, would this Minister rescind the $30 reassessment fee they had to pay? At least David Benson-Pope said he would consider rescinding it, but no, the Minister of Education totally ruled it out. Well, why should the Labour Government rescind it? It was just another tax, as far as it was concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Minister were warned and warned that the NCEA scholarship would be unworkable. A non-competitive system cannot be grafted on to a competitive exam. The solution is to give those qualifications back to organisations in the private sector like the New Zealand Education Scholarship Trust, which for years has run scholarship with no problems at all. We never saw that on a Tui billboard. We never saw New Zealand bursary, university entrance, or even School Certificate, which had some problems, on a Tui billboard. A whole generation of New Zealand students has been subject to an experiment. It is not just an unfortunate experiment; it is a total disaster, and they have been severely disadvantaged. It is child abuse of the mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9c07aee72b345f991452651d28ffc93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9c07aee72b345f991452651d28ffc93\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak tonight from a more positive approach to our education system. It is really depressing to hear members on the other side of the Chamber banging on all the time about doom and gloom and not acknowledging all the good things that are happening in our education system. I will start my speech at the beginning, with early childhood education. We have seen the statistics and so much research that shows that through investment in early childhood education, there are real results later on in terms of achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022189ec3d4b9144aef9c8e4c0be14491ef\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: For some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c295e7cbbe4429819b82fc9d785d6e\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, certainly not for the members of his caucus, but, generally speaking, our children in New Zealand are achieving. We are seeing the statistics about the achievement of 11-year olds now, who have had the benefit of early childhood education. That is something I prefer to celebrate. I am proud to be part of a Government that celebrates that. Why are those young people achieving? They are achieving because they had quality early childhood education that delivers. That is why we are increasing our commitment to, and our investment in, early childhood education. We have committed to 20 free hours\u2019 funding per week in community early childhood centres for the future, and we know that that will build on the achievements we already see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c610071e40d7403db2b5123bb6cf104a\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Only for some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b97a0e91c7456da8e474aed0b5ca52\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know what the member means by that. I just cannot understand why members relish being so negative. I know many of them have chosen to leave after the next election, which is a very wise move, but I prefer to work and to celebrate all the good things that are happening. Increased investment and achievement in early childhood education means there is also an increased demand for training. That means upskilling and it means scholarships in early childhood education. That is a major investment of this Government, and it is one that I am very proud to see happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI will move on now to when children move from early childhood education to primary school, which I have seen in my electorate. It has been very, very good to celebrate, not only with children and our Government but with their parents and with the community at large. There are laptops in every school. Under this Government, every schoolteacher now has the ability to have a laptop to work with and to share with the children. What an advantage! That is something that happened under this Government\u2019s funding. We should not forget that this Government\u2014which does not promote vouchers or private education\u2014stands for the right of every child in New Zealand to go to his or her local school. That is something that this Labour-led Government is very proud of. It is a real right that we see not only for our children but for their families, and our transport system is not clogged up by people trying to whip across town because a child might be a good rugby player and might have been poached by a school. We stand by the right of every young person in the country to go to his or her local school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWe should also acknowledge the building that has gone on under this Government. I have been to more school hall openings, refurbishments, general extensions on schools, and general celebrations of achievement than we have seen happen over the last decade in this country. Why? Because we are investing in our schools, and we are doing it wisely. That also means many, many more teachers and more funding for special education, because we know that that investment delivers in terms of achievement. We are not a party that says we think we are spending too much and will advocate for tax cuts that will not deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf28772f7d124aeebffbf5b8a89eb6e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf28772f7d124aeebffbf5b8a89eb6e5\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to look at the financial reviews of three Crown entities. When I read out the names of the three education Crown entities\u2014the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, the New Zealand Teachers Council, and the Tertiary Education Commission\u2014what comes to mind for parents, taxpayers, learners, and children when those three entities are made known across the airwaves, in alleyways, and in the schools and universities around New Zealand? People will reply straight away to my question by saying that the issue common to all three is that they have been poor performers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EAll three entities have been in the news, as I understand it, for very wrong reasons. All appear to be unable to control their own appetite for increase and for their own purposes. All impose on those they are looking after\u2014monitoring, and auditing\u2014what they are not prepared to see imposed on themselves. In fact, they are less able to control themselves than the schools, universities, or whatever that they are in charge of. Worse still I have noticed, as have a lot of people, that there is a tremendous overlap between those Crown entities. There is duplication and sheer waste when, for instance, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, the New Zealand Teachers Council, and the Tertiary Education Commission all work separately to assess and appraise private training enterprises. I know of at least two teachers colleges where that has happened. There is a lot of duplication and waste. That is what comes to mind for a lot of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E It has already been said that it is a fearful thing. It is of concern to myself and others, and I think to some on the Education and Science Committee, that it is intended that the Ministry of Education take some of those entities under its wing. We in United Future do not sense that their independence should be squished and squashed away, and lost. They need true statutory independence to do their jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003ESome members have been talking in the House about the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) programmes, which in my mind and in the mind of everybody in the National Party started as a dream, in order to bring forth learning into our schools. But NCEA has not ended as a dream; it has ended as a nightmare for a lot of people and certainly for a lot of students and employers around this nation. Do I need to say more? Well, others have said a lot, and tonight I want to quote from the Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA) advisory officer, Julie Ellison. She said that there was enough evidence in the report the PPTA had, to show that some very poor-quality moderators were operating. That is only one comment she made. More dollars have been spent on NCEA, with fewer outcomes than people have deserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EWhat is the New Zealand Teachers Council renowned for? It has produced more chief executive officers than any other Crown entity in the last 2 or 3 years that I have been in Parliament. It is amazing! The only thing it has ever produced, as I see it, is a code of ethics. When I asked in the select committee what that really meant\u2014did it mean accountability?\u2014they said it was definitely not a code of accountability. Then I asked why they went to all that trouble, over $103,000 worth, to produce a toothless wonder in reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003ESo many people out there are declaring that the Teachers Council needs a complete rewrite\u2014a complete rerun\u2014because it is a toothless wonder. As for the Tertiary Education Commission, it is becoming a very, very protectionist organisation for a few, what I would call, State institutions. For instance, I have on the table in front of me an application of concern from Unitec, for that institution to obtain university status. The amount of money that has been spent by all parties, at this time in our maturity, to come to an obvious answer is laughable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002284b5383364914354899e129045709ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284b5383364914354899e129045709ebb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E One of the entities we are talking about tonight is the Tertiary Education Commission, and I would like the Minister\u2014now that he is in charge of tertiary education\u2014to explain just where the Tertiary Education Commission fits in. It is my hope, on behalf of 2.5 million taxpayers, that he will do a better job than his predecessor the Hon Steve Maharey. I think that any history of public administration in New Zealand will record that member\u2019s efforts as among the worst of any Minister\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and it is laughable that the member for \u014Ctaki is probably going to vote for him when Labour eventually changes its leadership. In fact, I think that Mr Maharey\u2019s tenure as the Minister in charge of tertiary education should have put paid to any leadership prospects he had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df56733c5e114ed9b38e3dd2c762a015\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Give us a tutorial now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0fd2a68710e43959e39ecb19374267f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Just settle down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to tell us now what is going on with the Tertiary Education Commission. Mr Mallard is getting headlines again, as in the Christchurch Press today, with talk of redundancies at Christchurch Polytechnic. Mr Mallard is wandering into the polytech sector like a bull in a china shop, and he is causing a great deal of strife by proposing changes that he will have to back off from. In fact, if he has not been told to back off by the Prime Minister already, then she will probably do that before the end of this week, when her media-monitoring unit counts the polytech headlines around the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWhat has happened is that the Minister has made a number of aggressive and irritable speeches, saying that he is going to cut back a number of course types. Now, on the face of it, that looks like a reasonable thing to do\u2014except that a couple of months ago he announced a whole series of reviews of courses in tertiary institutions. And that sounds as if it would not be too unreasonable, except that prior to that the Government made an agreement with those polytechs about how they would handle the community education allocations in particular. That would have made some sense, except that before that the polytechs had done their charters and profiles in great detail for the next 3 years and they had been signed off by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo people are trying to run a polytech and provide skills for an economy that needs them, and there have now been four different interventions from the Minister and the Tertiary Education Commission. I do not necessarily sympathise with the sector generally, but I have to say that that is just grossly negligent public management. It is a case of ministerial whim; every time Ministers feel a bit of pressure, they go out and say they will do something else\u2014whatever it is. So the chief executive and the council are sitting there, trying to work out which plan the Government will carry out\u2014because all those plans came from the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWell, can the Minister tell us what he will do? Will he stick with the original agreements about charters and profiles, or will he stick with the next agreement his predecessor made about community education? Or will he throw both of those over in favour of pursuing the raft of reviews that are being done by former corrections officers and people with PhDs\u2014people who have never had a job but are reviewing our tertiary institutions? Or will he follow the statements he has made recently that he is sending a package off to Cabinet that will involve taking tens of millions of dollars out of the polytechs? I would like him to tell me that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like him to tell me is just what he is doing about the viability of those institutions. Will he go around the same circle that Steve Maharey did, where everyone stands around, collaborates, and wrings their hands? He coughed up money for the polytechs just because he could not stand not being nice to them. So he bailed them out. Then, 3 years later, they were all back in financial difficulty again. Clearly, the Government has failed to get to the nub of the problem in relation to the viability of polytechs, and I want to know why the Minister will not take a sensible and measured approach to the matter. Why does he feel that he has to go out there and aggressively strut in front of the sector to show that he means business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022328eeb67ed6544e4a7287ec9af4475b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022328eeb67ed6544e4a7287ec9af4475b3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I did not think it was possible. I really did not think it was possible. I did not think that Bill English could be a worse ditherer than Don Brash\u2014but he is, absolutely. I did not think it would be possible for someone in this Parliament, much less in the country, to dither more than Don Brash, but we have had it from Bill English. He rammed into the Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology and criticised it for all its courses\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f292123d63d549d5b6558cc411b1b28e\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t enrol?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ecea2d882f042c89f20af93f04a6630\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. I think they have some standards! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut now something is being done about it and some changes are being made. The jandal has flip-flopped. The wrist has gone the other way, and it is almost unbelievable. We knew we had a tired and confused Leader of the Opposition who was very patchy in his approach and pretty hopeless overall. But what do we have now? We have the former Leader of the Opposition working really hard to try to make the present leader look good. [Interruption] Well, I think Bill English is more of a \u201CMr Sad\u201D tonight, because what he has seen is what a number of us have seen recently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022701e7ead69ef44c7930ff66c5cc02f37\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Are you talking about the estimates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0b7626471ce49bcaa62be463822831a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, I am talking about the reviews, and in particular the review of the performance of Bill English. He has been well reviewed by his caucus colleagues. He relied on Nick Smith to count the numbers, yet he complained about a few polytechnics being out of balance. Well, relying on Nick Smith to do the numbers is, I think, a fair sign of where that all sits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E But I turn back to the reviews. I think there is not much doubt that Career Services is a particularly tidy organisation. I do want to congratulate Patricia McKelvey on her Queen\u2019s Birthday honour. She has made an enormous contribution to education in New Zealand as the principal of Wellington High School and recently as chair of the board of Career Services. I think she is also on the council of Victoria University. Career Services is a very tidy organisation, and I think it is fair to say that if all the other education Crown entities were of the same degree of tidiness we would have some more focus on educational rather than administrative matters in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Hon Russell Marshall for agreeing to take on the position of chair of the Tertiary Education Commission. He is someone who has a lot of respect in the sector, someone who was my predecessor some time ago, and someone who worked very closely with the Hon Richard Prebble when they were friends in the Labour Government. They worked very closely together on important issues at some stages, and less closely later on. I look forward to the new chief executive arriving for the commission, I understand, at some stage next month. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI notice that Mr English has taken a line that I think is rather unwise around Karen Sewell, who is a well-respected public servant. She is someone who, I think, has given, following the Rodger review and the initial work of Judith Aitken, the Education Review Office the reputation of being an organisation with an iron glove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf0a3026cb0c4aeb9693d5ff377e145d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: She is soft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269f666d0c19e4b6b848b1af14e3a9375\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, a velvet glove and an iron fist. On some occasions she is a little soft but, as the member who used to be the principal of a college in Northland knows, on occasions the Education Review Office is forced to tell the story as it is. It is full and frank, and not always desirable, and I tell Mr Peters that people are not always comfortable with the reports of Education Review Office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5177e779e884c1988f754e9fc3657fa\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Because they are not always reliable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e545958aef6245499ff55bea5cf852f4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I know on some occasions people get really bad reports, and I am amazed that we have gone all this time with the member as a member of Parliament and no one has had a good look at them. But I have had a read of them. I think it is particularly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8f9d5eed74e41478ae4ecbc7009a56e\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Would you like to table them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb1278bf284446f0a4d4b0455fde67d9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think they are on the public record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7b6e2191f34f759a60204e407d39ef\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Oh please!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022126842db1838438bb1edf30a7d49b244\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The member could go all high-tech and look them up on the web if he wants to. [Interruption] I know we have a couple of very retiring members further back, and I am surprised we have had a valedictory speech from Rodney Hide but have not had one from the two members who are going voluntarily. I invite them to take a call and tell us what they care about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EReports noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271b25149e8b9498a82f3d47ee3aab0b7\u0022\u003EEnergy Efficiency and Conservation Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00228c76f27c872d45b9b4f9cfbbaa2c59ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c76f27c872d45b9b4f9cfbbaa2c59ba\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. United Future members would like to make it known that we are great supporters of this agency. We think it is doing a good job and that it has some very practical solutions to some of the problems the country faces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EFor 2 years now we have put in Budget bids for this agency to have increased funding, and we believe that it deserves to have more funding from the Minister of Energy. We hope the Minister will continue to be an advocate for this agency. If the Government is serious about its energy conservation strategy, it ought to be putting more money into this agency so it can achieve real reductions and real successes in energy efficiency, rather than just this little bit of money, which is a slight indication of commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIt is time that the Government walked the walk in terms of the so-called effects of climate change. I see that a great deal of the money that this agency is given is actually siphoned off to deal with reports on climate change and on the effects of carbon dioxide gases, rather than actually doing the things many New Zealanders believe would make a difference in our country, such as increasing the use of solar water heating in our homes. We were pleased to see, back in 2003-04, that funding doubled so that solar water heating could be installed in more homes, but it is still so little that it is hardly going to make a dent in reducing our dependence on energy. What is needed on that front is for the industry behind solar water heating to be given a very clear signal that the Government is serious about solar water heating being installed in all new homes, and seeing many of our older homes being refitted. Until the Government gives a clear signal that it really is serious about that, the industry will not respond and get ready for the massive infrastructure it needs in order to meet the demand that will come. We urge the Minister to take that initiative, to really deliver for the people of New Zealand in that strategy, and to support the good people in the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe have welcomed the work that the agency has been doing with energy- efficiency ratings for homes, and we are pleased to see that in the 2005-06 Budget it has been given another $0.6 million to increase the number of homes that it can rate. But, again, it is still too little. We would like to see United Future\u2019s policy implemented, whereby all homes will need to have energy-efficiency ratings when sold. We think that is a good way to have market measures involved in upgrading our homes to be more efficient. It is not a huge expense for a home to be given an energy-efficiency rating. The Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority is able to deliver this service, and more people would be able to be trained if the demand were increased. For a very minimal cost, people could come and rate our homes, find the spots where heat is leaking out, and find the ways in which insulation and efficiency overall can be improved. They would consider the ways in which we light and heat our homes. There is much saving that can be made. We believe that if an energy-efficiency rating were required at the time of the sale of a home, people would be motivated to get better ratings, because they would be able to get better prices for their homes. The market would very much take care of this improvement. So we look forward to the Minister getting behind the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority and offering it more support through Budget allocation in the years ahead, so that it can do a lot more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe hear an awful lot about the worries of climate change and the impending effects of human-induced climate change. The Government is imposing a carbon tax on our country and our businesses. It is seeking to raise something like $300 million with that carbon tax, yet it is giving less than $30 million to the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, which could actually make a real difference. We do not think the carbon tax makes any sense at all, and we oppose it absolutely. But, perhaps, the tax would make a little more sense if it was being directed to the authority so that it could make rapid progress in energy-efficiency initiatives around the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EReport noted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a0392e957e74bc681a75525fbe0b89b\u0022\u003ECivil Aviation Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fe117bfb08a4e349b6905f61565c677\u0022\u003ELand Transport Safety Authority of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002296deda6cf268470b95c6364f47fb212f\u0022\u003EMaritime Safety Authority of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b7ed4a5fb5f49699306ffd728f3e0bf\u0022\u003ETransfund New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ad46f8029a8404ebc808f19671caec5\u0022\u003ETransit New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022174bcac966114f9db24d73b42d78ebd3\u0022\u003ETransport Accident Investigation Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00229b1e9663b56a470498f19f2ee3a3662a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b1e9663b56a470498f19f2ee3a3662a\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E In the few minutes that I have, I wish to focus specifically on Transit New Zealand. The reason I do so is that it is the Crown entity responsible for the maintenance and construction of the New Zealand highway system. I have to say that back in 1999, Labour came into office with the promise of fixing New Zealand\u2019s roads. I recall that Labour members went up and down the country saying that, and especially in Auckland they made that kind of boast. What is their record, after 5\u00BD years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EFrankly, it is one of failure. The reason I say that is that in 2000 and 2001, expenditure actually went down. Transit ended up with hundreds of millions of dollars of unspent money in the bank, simply because the Government put everything on further review\u2014the best single example being the North Shore bus lane. It was approved back in 1997, and finally started this year, with construction to be completed at the earliest in 2009. Think of that\u2014a 12-year period to do a simple project! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ELast year Transit issued a document, which I will seek leave to table later, that went to every single household in the Auckland region, called Getting Auckland Going. The information in this document caused that now infamous rift between the Northern Employers and Manufacturers Association, the Auckland chamber of commerce, the Minister, and Mike Williams. The reason is that this document is a bunch of lies. That is the truth of the matter. It lies from start to finish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to produce this particular evidence. The document refers to 17 projects. I guess they got two of them right. Do members know why they got two of them right? Because the construction had been finished when the document was issued. So I guess when they said, in relation to the Puhinui interchange, that construction was complete, at least they could go down there, take a photograph, and say \u201CYes, that is complete.\u201D They did the same also for another project, Grafton Gully, stages one and two\u2014also complete. They got that part right. The rest of it was fundamentally untrue. In particular, and this is where Auckland feels so deeply let down, they went through a list of projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EConstruction on State Highway 18, the Hobsonville deviation, was to start in 2005. Bear in mind that this document went out in September 2004. It was issued by Transit, to every householder. Has construction started on State Highway 18? No. That was a lie in this document. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe construction of State Highway 20, the Mount Roskill extension, was to start, according to this document, in 2004. That is about 12 weeks after this document was issued. Has it even started yet? No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESo they could not predict even 12 weeks in front. That is just amazing. The next example is State Highway 20, Manukau extension: \u201Cconstruction starts 2005\u201D. Has it started? No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EState Highway 1, new Waitemata crossing\u2014\u201Cstudies start in 2004\u201D. Bear in mind that this document was issued in September 2004. They had to project forward only 12 weeks\u2014just 12 weeks. Did they get that right? No. Has the project director started his work yet? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E So that is the reason why Aucklanders feel so deeply disappointed. The truth is this. The only thing that one can now believe on whether construction has started is if one sees the bulldozers actually starting work. Anything else does not count. I read in the last week that State Highway 20, which, as I said, was to start last year, is to start in August. All I can say is that we will have to wait and see whether that is true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe problem is this, and it comes back to governmental responsibility. Everyone in Auckland knows that our highways are clogged. Everyone in Auckland knows, in particular, that State Highway 20\u2014the western ring route, which everyone acknowledges is absolutely crucial\u2014has to be done to make Auckland\u2019s traffic flow. The Government has said that, we have said that, and all Auckland mayors have said that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhen the Government\u2019s road builder, Transit\u2014under the authority of Ministers of Transport\u2014says that the project will start, and it gives very clear dates just within 12 weeks, frankly people have relied on this document. The document was sent to every single household in Auckland\u2014that is, 500,000 households\u2014with the intention and expectation that people would rely on the document; that they would read it and believe it. In a sense, I guess that was part of the Government\u2019s preconditioning for this election. Frankly, the Government has let Auckland down. Virtually every project that was predicted to start in 2004 and 2005 has not happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b2441b100b6429693ea8ec217be77ec\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9639ee61f3e4ec4b3210226c8cc08db\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who I guess thinks he knows Auckland well, says \u201CRubbish.\u201D That speaks of his ignorance. If he had read this document he would be able to compare, just looking at the roads themselves, whether the roads were started on the days, months, or even the years stated in the document, and he would know that the answer was no. It is a judgment on the Government that members in Cabinet do not know whether their own proposals to fix Auckland\u2019s roads have succeeded, or been started. In fact, that is an incredible indictment on that Cabinet. That it is so ignorant and has let Auckland down so badly, that it has deeply misled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221470fff55f4345bf9421c7849f7d760e\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member\u2019s tunnel part of National\u2019s policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1411237a87472da95c807ce6cfab55\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: We support public-private partnerships, I say to the junior whip. National has a clear policy on fixing the roads. We are committed to spending all of the petrol tax on roads over the next 6 years. We have also said that we support public-private partnerships. Well-conceived projects like a second crossing ought to be put out to tender. Frankly, if we go by the situation in Sydney and Melbourne, they will come. It does not require any Government funding to do so, and that is the case in Sydney and Melbourne. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis Government, in its land transport legislation from last year, has let this country down disgracefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614118253460e5248d49b919227db5bf2ed000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221932da80a3f445d7b25e3c1f030ddaae\u0022\u003ETuesday, 14 June 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002245666c48742248b3ad71cc99a39d20eb\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 15 June 2005)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022029a4ca9afa9467abe295e56b6c46acc\u0022\u003EDebate on Crown Entities, Public Organisations, and State Enterprises\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022369c7727be7545c4aefb51e76df32021\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b84a15d72d514448b7d7d151f780d0c1\u0022\u003ECivil Aviation Authority (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202a5e733ad8e4edc865eb9ca38bd2e41\u0022\u003ELand Transport Safety Authority of New Zealand (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022278f41ede8ae4b7b8faf5b31cc5e6118\u0022\u003EMaritime Safety Authority of New Zealand (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224302dd51cf3846dcae09c4a6dc179d52\u0022\u003ETransfund New Zealand (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002218c9ca92658b47738092ca9df0063821\u0022\u003ETransit New Zealand (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c103d9296954d25bb87e1ca91cbefa6\u0022\u003ETransport Accident Investigation Commission (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002274e3f88d9ee74fba8de095d95593dd80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274e3f88d9ee74fba8de095d95593dd80\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Last night I was referring to a document issued by Transit New Zealand, in August 2004, to every household in the Auckland region. It talked about investing half a billion dollars in the Auckland highways, with more to come. There were 17 projects listed, with start dates given. The only problem is that the document has proven to be false. All the projects planned to start in 2004, and we must bear in mind that that was only 12 weeks after the issue of that document, did not happen. Of the projects that were to start in 2005, the majority did not happen. The Government wonders why Aucklanders\u2014the people of North Shore, the Employers and Manufacturers Association, and the chamber of commerce\u2014are completely disillusioned, fed up, and disgusted with this Government. It is that kind of propaganda that has done it. I say this to the Government: it has lost the trust of New Zealanders, and it has lost the trust of New Zealanders because it has misled them. I seek leave to table a copy of the document from Transit New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022d47cc084e79e421dbb062a1cb7ec67f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d47cc084e79e421dbb062a1cb7ec67f1\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E To quote the Leader of the Opposition, all I can say, after listening to that speech last night from the member and again this morning, is \u201CBaloney!\u201D I heard Dr Mapp last night claim that the National Party had the North Shore busway ready to go in 1997. Have members ever in their lives heard such a big misrepresentation of the truth? No. That is because transport issues do not matter to members opposite. Where is National\u2019s transport spokesperson this morning? Where is Maurice Williamson? Why is he not here praising the Government for the projects that are reported as having been built or under construction? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe report talks about the central motorway junction in Auckland. What did the previous National Government do about that in 9 long years? It did nothing. It just looked at the bits of concrete sticking out of the ground, which had been there for 20 years, and did nothing. And it would do that again, if it were ever allowed to be in Government again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EGreenhithe, in Auckland, is under construction. Mercer to Long Swamp in the Waikato is under construction. Hewlett\u2019s flyover in the Bay of Plenty is under construction. Mackay\u2019s Crossing in Wellington is under construction. The inner-city bypass in Wellington is under construction. The Albany to P\u016Bhoi realignment B2 is under construction. Then it will be a toll road\u2014something the National Party talked about but did nothing about in terms of legislation. We had to pass legislation, one Christmas, I remember, to try to help Tauranga out. It was a special piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhat has this Government done? We have legislation that allows it to happen, very simply, with the Minister of Transport being convinced that it is a good project, and ticking off a number of boxes that ask whether it will work financially, whether the public supports it, and whether there is an alternative road. All of that law has been passed. What did the National Government do? It did absolutely nothing. Did it allow for private-public partnerships in the law in 9 long years? It did nothing. But this Government has got on and done the real work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThat is why in Auckland there is a \u201Cbuildability\u201D problem. That is why the construction industry is in Samoa trying to recruit labour. It is also off in South Africa and Zimbabwe trying to get civil engineers. It cannot actually keep up with the tendering process, and at the moment a major project in Auckland\u2014State Highway 20\u2014is under way but other projects that follow it are having to get consortiums of New Zealand construction companies put together to be able to tender, because not one single company is able to do it on its own. There is too much work, and that is why the Australians are over here in consortiums actually tendering for New Zealand projects, because there is so much work, so much money, that the industry cannot keep up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis report talks about that. It talks about the \u201Cbuildability\u201D problems\u2014the labour shortages. It talks about the things the Government has done in terms of requiring 10-year plans, so that everybody knows that there is a major piece of construction going on, and that this Government is serious about fixing the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E The amount will be $18.9 billion over the next 10 years. What is National saying it will do? Last night we heard that a National Government would spend yet another $4.5 billion over that same period of time. How would that fix the problem? Labour is talking $18.9 billion over the next 10 years; National is talking $4.5 billion\u2014and it is talking about having tolls. It is saying: \u201COh, no, no. We\u2019re going to give you a couple of bucks tax cut over here, before Christmas, in whatever year\u2014who knows? But we\u2019ll toll you so much that you won\u2019t be able to afford to go on that road.\u201D National would just tax people a different way. That is the age-old trick of the Tories over there. They do nothing but make the public pay for all the projects that this Government has the funds to do under its current regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis is a great report. This is a report that one would never have found under a National Government, because it has things in it that have actually been done. Construction is taking place all over the country. There are roadworks for half the distance between Auckland to Waikato. What happened under previous National Governments? Absolutely zip. They did nothing. They had a cost-benefit ratio system that made them think they could not do little improvements here or there, because that might stop a project from going ahead. They said that anyway there was not enough money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhen I became the Minister, I was told: \u201CYou\u2019ll build nothing in Auckland in your first 3 years, because the National Government has done nothing to prepare for it, and there isn\u2019t the money in the kitty to pay for it. In fact, in our first 3 years in Government, both Puhinui and Grafton Gully were built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00220bb7c48e92964098bc4317d890130d52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bb7c48e92964098bc4317d890130d52\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to address the issue about Transit New Zealand, too. Last night I heard the Minister of Transport say that he would love to have a system where there were no police on the side of the road collecting fines, and that he would love our country to be one where people did not die on its roads. If he were really sincere about that, then his Government would do something about terrible pieces of roads, such as State Highway 2, and the road from P\u014Dkeno to Tirau\u2014State Highway 27. It is known now that the four-lane passing lanes will not go ahead there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe will never get anywhere in this country while we continue down the path of having land transport politicised. It is totally politicised. For instance, the president of the Labour Party sits on the board of Transit New Zealand\u2014and what an embarrassment that has turned out to be for the party. Transit New Zealand is just one of Mike Williams\u2019 appointments. He gets $17,000 in fees from Transit New Zealand, $19,000 from the board of the Institute of Geological and Nuclear Sciences Ltd, $21,000 a year from the Railways Corporation, and $28,000 a year from Genesis Energy, and he is on the Auckland Regional Transport Authority, from which he gets another $25,000. That is $107,000. And it does not include the secret honorarium he gets for being president of the Labour Party. Not even Nick Venter has been able to find out how much that secret honorarium is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWhen this debate was last raised in the House, Mike Williams faxed me and said that the figures I gave were wrong. I think I said the total was something like half a million dollars. His kids all asked for expensive Christmas presents, as a result. Well, if he gets upset every time someone raises how much he gets from the public purse, he should come clean and say how much he gets. But as Jonathan Milne asked, in that wonderful new publication the Herald on Sunday on Sunday, what will Labour do now about its president? He went to a meeting 2 weeks ago in the offices of the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Finance, where he embarrassed himself, was extremely rude, and brought to a halt the negotiations, and then he went and leaked it to Brian Rudman of the New Zealand Herald. What was written about that meeting was wrong. What was being written about The Way Forward in Auckland was wrong. That is the reason we will never get anything done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EOn 30 June Transfund and Transit New Zealand will be releasing their 10-year programme. There is going to be some serious embarrassment for this Government in that statement. For instance, in this country we have roads that have proved to have a good benefit-cost ratio. That means they will deliver a very high rate of return to this country, they will enhance economic growth, and they will improve people\u2019s lives. But they are not even going to appear on the 10-year programme. Why? Because it is not political. We will see roads in the South Island that do not have a good benefit-cost ratio, and the building of which will be very difficult to justify, but they will be there. Why? Because it is politically expedient in an election year to have them on the 10-year programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe have Government funding issues. The Government says that everything is all right and that we do not have to worry about it\u2014everything is great. Well, it is not specifying starting and completion dates. As the honourable Dr Wayne Mapp pointed out, the paper that he tabled, which went to every household in Auckland at huge expense\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228403052f073543bd97163e6fa556d9e0\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Frankly, can we believe it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218cf7e3c53bd4c3a8a051968f56d8a84\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: As Dr Mapp says, can we believe it? It is factually incorrect. It was proved at the select committee, under questioning, that there were incorrect statements in terms of what had and had not been started. I ask whether the Government does want to get serious about fixing the transport system in this country, which we predicted 3 years ago would get worse and worse when the Land Transport Management Act was brought in. It brought in a whole lot of other considerations that have to be brought into account when Transit New Zealand and Transfund are considering new roading projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAnd they are political. They are political to satisfy the Greens, they are political to satisfy that vote, and they are politicised to ensure that Ministers get back into Parliament when the election comes round again. We are just going back to the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022371bcb25f8f64998a8bc60fff5810508\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022371bcb25f8f64998a8bc60fff5810508\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed her seat, Deborah Coddington, has made not very many strong arguments about not much at all, and I will not rebut them. But the member Wayne Mapp, who spoke last night and again this morning\u2014apparently, he is the new National Party transport spokesperson, because we have not heard from the other National Party transport spokesperson\u2014made a series of allegations that are scurrilous, that are outrageous, and that need to be rebutted. It is my pleasure to stand up here and give that member a towelling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EHe stood up and said that Transit had put out a document that was incorrect. He said that Transit had put out a document that was a lie. He said that Transit had set out to mislead people. That is a scurrilous allegation and it is a wrong allegation, and I intend to dismiss it. The reason I intend to dismiss it is that it cannot stand unchallenged. The member made a series of allegations about Transit that are simply wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThere are 17 projects in the document he refers to. This is a document that 10, 11, or 12 months ago was put around the suburbs of Auckland. It is a document that states: \u201CAuckland at a glance\u201D, and it gives people an indication of what is going on in their city, in the Transit area. Of the 17 projects, 14 have been accurately described, and I will come to the other three in a minute. The 14 projects include the Greenhithe deviation. The document states that its construction is in progress. The truth is its construction is in progress. It states, in relation to the State Highway 18 upper harbour bridge and causeway duplication, that its construction is in progress. The truth is its construction is in process. It states, in relation to the State Highway 20 Puhinui exchange, that its construction is complete. Its construction is complete. It states, in relation to the State highway northern busway, that construction started in November 2004. Construction started in November 2004. It states, in relation to the State highway Grafton Gully stages I and II, that construction is complete. And on and on it goes. All of those 14 descriptions are accurate. There is a really interesting story about how come this Government can get 14 projects running in Auckland at once, and the member opposite cannot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E What about the other three? One of them is the Roskill extension, which was delayed by a 1915 piece of legislation on volcanic cones that, at the time this publication came out, nobody knew about. The member certainly did not. That legislation from 1915 that was discovered required a change of tack for the Roskill extension. Has the Roskill extension tender been let? Yes. Has the Roskill extension tender pre-construction work begun? Yes. When will the Roskill construction work begin? It will begin as soon as we get through the winter period. That one project has been put back by a number of months because of a statute nobody knew about. Did Wayne Mapp advise the House of that? No, he did not. Instead, he said that the document was an entire set of inaccuracies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ETwo other projects need to be brought to the member\u2019s attention. The first is the Hobsonville deviation. It says here that construction is due to start in 2005. It will not start in 2005, and the reason is the other project\u2014the third project that the member did not mention\u2014the Albany to P\u016Bhoi realignment B2 (ALPURT B2). The reason the member did not mention that project is it is going ahead ahead of time. The bulldozers have already begun work. The ALPURT B2 extension is down in this document as being at the stage of consultation. In that respect the document is misleading, because the news turns out to be way better than was thought to be the case when it was written. The State Highway 20 Manukau deviation is on track; there are no problems with that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe problem is that the ALPURT B2 construction had to go ahead for the reason that when the Tories were in power, the only thing they built in Auckland in 9 years was the Albany to P\u016Bhoi realignment B1. Do members know what they did with that? They stopped it halfway. They stopped it on a corner of a suburban part of \u014Crewa. That is where that stretch of road ends, to this day. They built a highway halfway to nowhere, then lost power. That is why ALPURT B2 had to go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EBut, wait, there is more. If one adds together the projects that were under way by National at the time of the change of Government, and also includes, out of generosity, projects recently completed by National\u2014of which there were none\u2014one comes up with $130 million worth of expenditure. ALPURT B2 alone is more than twice that. If one adds all 17 projects that the member decided he would take a go at, and the ones that have been recently completed\u2014of which there are many, such as the Grafton Gully central motorway junction stage I or the Puhinui interchange, and on it goes\u2014one does not come up with $130 million. One comes up with precisely 10 times that figure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESo that member should not stand up in this Chamber and say that the Government is not getting Auckland moving again. This Government is addressing a very serious backlog created by the Government of the member who just resumed his seat. That is the truth of the matter. At the time of the change of Government $130 million worth of construction was underway. Today, by precisely the same measurement, the amount is exactly 10 times that in value. Let us be very clear about who created the problem in Auckland, and let us be very clear about who is fixing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002219c84693e701425db9a9d618ea26c12c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the reports of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on the 2003-04 financial reviews of the Civil Aviation Authority, the Land Transport Safety Authority of New Zealand, the Maritime Safety Authority of New Zealand, Transfund New Zealand, Transit New Zealand, and the Transport Accident Investigation Commission be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReports noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229972c1f1a0814630bf244ddada1060d9\u0022\u003ETe Reo Whakapuaki Irirangi (Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00224629362d861445888abafa117a89772f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224629362d861445888abafa117a89772f\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E For the clarification of anybody who might be listening, we are here to review Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho, which is the funding agency for, mainly, M\u0101ori Television, and for the production of M\u0101ori programming shown on various broadcasting outlets in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAn update from the M\u0101ori Television Service in June 2005 highlighted an issue that I think the Minister needs to turn his attention to. It stated that issues and solutions for M\u0101ori Television include continuing to produce high-quality M\u0101ori programmes. While conducting its review, members of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee had some substantial discussions about just that issue. How do we monitor and come to make some judgments about what high-quality M\u0101ori programming is? The M\u0101ori Television Service, obviously, has that on its mind, and, hopefully, Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho does, as well. Up to 35 percent of the funding that Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho gets goes directly to the M\u0101ori Television Service. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee suggested that emphasis be put on the way that funding contracts to broadcasters are managed, and that further attention was required in terms of enhancing and documenting its policies and procedures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOf course, we all remember that 2 or 3 years ago the Minister, more than anybody, was being given all that wrong and fatuous advice by his Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho executives. We had that whole debacle in this Chamber in 2001 and 2002. The Minister would stand up in this Chamber and not know what he was talking about, basically because he was being supplied with incorrect information. Thanks to a good National Party loyalist, Wira Gardiner, we now see that Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho, at least, appears to have turned itself around. We hope that the chairman makes sure that everything is in place before he starts to think of leaving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOne issue relates to the monitoring of funding provided to third parties. That is where the organisation started to fall off the rails 2 or 3 years ago. That is an issue the select committee thought was important. The M\u0101ori Television Service exists as a result of a perceived Government obligation to protect and promote te reo M\u0101ori. This Committee needs to know that that objective is being achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EHow will it be achieved? It will be achieved by making sure that the M\u0101ori Television Service has high-quality monitoring and review processes for the programming that is shown, and that it has in place its own financial procedures and documentation in terms of funding. So I hope the Minister will turn his attention to that this year, among a whole lot of other things\u2014including, of course, his own department, which sees itself as the great saviour of M\u0101ori people. I would suggest that the reverse is true: M\u0101ori people will save themselves. They do not need a handout organisation to help them achieve their potential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to mention is M\u0101ori radio. We saw in the estimates we looked at last week that a new initiative has been sought for an iwi radio upgrade. In a way, given that iwi radio has become the mouthpiece of the new M\u0101ori Party, I suppose the Minister has to be commended for the fact that iwi radio has achieved some funding. But, again, we ask whether Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho processes are the right means of funding M\u0101ori radio\u2014whether its funding processes are robust and whether, indeed, Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho has made any decision about, or done any thinking around, whether there are too many iwi radio stations. A little bit of integration of iwi radio stations might see the funding go further. Hopefully these matters are in the Minister\u2019s mind, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00223fb23089c12a47a380e72a55a7fe3e41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fb23089c12a47a380e72a55a7fe3e41\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I had hoped the Opposition spokesman on M\u0101ori affairs would come down and debate this issue. But certainly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224abbcbde3e68416da055a274400d742f\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It is quite contrary to the Standing Orders to refer to the absence of anybody from the Chamber, and the Minister should know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217244a916997406f9ada72e02f7b40f5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member is quite correct. Members should not refer to the absence of another member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c371f05485394ca3ae87a12caaa4b7a0\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I want to remind the member who spoke before me about the state of Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho when this Government came in. It was in a mess. It had no direction, no vision, and no mechanism for either governance or management. In 2003, under a whole lot of pressure, we reviewed it. I am proud to say that, through the efforts of the very able, capable people who work with this Government, the agency has sorted itself out. That is very clear. That member does not seem to like iwi radio stations. Well, I know that most M\u0101ori around this country appreciate, and spend a lot of time listening to, the iwi radio stations. For 20 years, and especially in the 9 years when National was last in Government, nothing was done about strengthening, restructuring, or supporting those iwi radio stations. We have done that\u2014even to our detriment at times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ELet me talk about the M\u0101ori Television Service. The face we see there is the new face, although it needs a bit of maturity. I want to tell the Committee what Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho has helped the M\u0101ori Television Service to do. The service will report a profit next week, like other State-owned enterprises, of $3 million. It will say quite clearly that it has repaid its loan 2 years before it was due. That shows good organisation, and it has come about because of a whole lot of support from Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWe talk about M\u0101ori not being able, and about who should be supporting them. Ninety-one percent of M\u0101ori are in work. They are working\u201424,000 of them in the modern skills field. And we will need them, because this great broadcasting industry\u2014especially its indigenous face and the indigenous activity that is going on through the M\u0101ori Television Service\u2014needs people to deliver. We should remember that Whale Rider was about the indigenous people. Having just been to the Wairoa M\u0101ori Film Festival, I have seen a whole lot of talent and a whole lot of opportunity of which this Government is very, very supportive. That person talked about indigenity. Certainly, when I was at the M\u0101ori rugby game the other day, when the M\u0101ori team cleaned up the British Lions, the crowd\u2019s first chant was the great chant of \u201CM\u0101oris! M\u0101oris! M\u0101oris!\u201D. Then they went on to say: \u201CKiwis! Kiwis! Kiwis!\u201D. Then they continually said: \u201CBlack! Black! Black!\u201D. When there is a common thread around something that we all enjoy, like M\u0101ori broadcasting, then this nation will move forward a lot quicker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E Let me tell members that a whole lot of the viewership of M\u0101ori television is non-M\u0101ori; it is P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014those other people. They enjoy watching it. Why? Because it is one of the finest adaptions in relation to showing Kiwi-ness on the box. I look back in history and ask how much M\u0101ori was on mainstream TV. What was done was not too bad, but there was very, very little, especially in Nelson. It is people like those in Nelson who really appreciate M\u0101ori television, who watch the cooking programmes and who watch the language programmes. They love it. They have classes down there to follow on from the language programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI point out that as a State-owned enterprise Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho has done very, very well. Mr Brownlee and Dr Brash want to close down anything that has a connotation of M\u0101oridom. It is disgraceful and it is shocking that they should even think that way. For once in this country, we have programmes produced by Kiwis, made by M\u0101oris, and watched by the whole nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b7cba29281e4ca6b9d58aea64e1f1e3\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Lotteries Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000056\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022351e918c4eab46e797dd7a7535d30c53\u0022\u003EBuilding Industry Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002241680d0bd73142b2b67a77d7de3107e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241680d0bd73142b2b67a77d7de3107e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This financial review of the Building Industry Authority impacts on thousands and thousands of New Zealanders who have been grossly neglected by this Government in its response to the huge crisis in respect of leaky homes. I note that Damien O\u2019Connor is in the chair. The first problem for homeowners is the way in which this important portfolio has been passed around the Cabinet table like a hot potato. Can members believe that in just 5 years there have been six different Ministers for Building Issues? It is little wonder that we have the scale of mess\u2014with thousands of homeowners living in rotting and decaying homes, with their health affected, and struggling to try to find a solution\u2014when Labour treats this issue with such disdain that it is passed from pillar to post. We have had Mark Burton\u2014[Interruption] Judith Tizard pipes up. Can Judith Tizard\u2014who has hundreds of her constituents confronted with those awful problems\u2014justify to me why we have had Mark Burton, George Hawkins, Lianne Dalziel, Margaret Wilson, John Tamihere, Chris Carter, and now Damien O\u2019Connor on building issues? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen there is the matter of just how poorly the Government is managing the problem. We see in this report that $6 million is being spent on lawyers by this Government in order to fight the owners of leaky homes. Here are desperate people who need the Government\u2019s help and assistance\u2014but what is the Government\u2019s answer? It will spend $6 million on Queen\u2019s Counsels in order to fight them and in trying to pretend that the Building Industry Authority has done nothing wrong. What sort of insult is that to the intelligence of New Zealanders and of those poor families affected? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we see that $100 million is being spent on the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service, but not one dollar of that is to be spent on a single home needing to be fixed. Instead, that $100 million the Government is spending on the weathertight homes bureaucracy is, according to the Government, to provide a quick and speedy resolution of the problem of rotting homes. Well, is that not interesting? That is what the Government said 3 years ago. Three years later, fewer than 10 percent of claims have been resolved. Does Damien O\u2019Connor, the Minister in the chair, realise that with current progress the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service will take 20 years to process claims under that \u201Cfast, cost-effective solution\u201D the Government rammed through Parliament in 10 days? That is simply insulting, and it is a tragedy for the families concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want also to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to something that is truly shocking. A poor old homeowner, who had a rotting home that had been certified by an independent certifier, wrote to the Building Industry Authority in 2004, the year under review, and asked who the insurer was for the independent certifier. The authority wrote back and said that it could not tell the homeowner, because the information was commercially sensitive. Now, that is shocking! There is a Government that should be helping those families, but it is putting up bureaucratic barriers to the extent of even refusing to name the insurer. What does that mean? It means that the homeowner is not able to take legal action to try to get his or her home fixed, because the Government is hiding behind the excuse of commercial sensitivity in order to protect the insurance companies rather than the homeowner. I say that that is a farce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHow can members opposite even pretend, with that sort of debacle, that they have any compassion for the families affected by leaky homes? I saw in the New Zealand Herald last week the glaringly smiling photo of Chris Carter, and I simply said: \u201CWhat a disgrace.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00224b4d336844d24498a380e4e94124b51f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b4d336844d24498a380e4e94124b51f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E That is one of the most outrageous speeches I have heard in this Chamber, from a member who thinks that the market will deliver to everyone\u2014will give a solution to everyone, regardless\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d90edc217d084e29be528ec4de193a2d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I never said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc88321aa416474a92fcacea80364ab7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that member and his party say that, philosophically, on just about every issue in relation to the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3711f90e264f27a6feaf8cfce5b4dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022555b1f8c918044c0a08e815dc5cf9ca9\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they do. In fact, they said that through the 1990s, which is the very reason that this Government has had to step in and fix the big mess. Indeed, I accept the member\u2019s point that it is a disastrous situation for a young family that has bought a home in good faith, and discovered that it is not just a leaky home but that they have a truly faulty, undervalued\u2014or overvalued\u2014disaster on their hands. How has that occurred? Many of those homes were built while Mr Smith was in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c11b9a0c03e4e818abf43a808d84a83\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: This was built in 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221895a6acaab4a61bfdfa6a188d36427\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member that the regulations that governed the system right through the 1990s were set up by his Government on the basis that the market would deliver\u2014that homeowners should know what they were buying: \u201Clet the buyer beware\u201D. The problem was that that Government had insufficient safeguards to protect people who bought homes in good faith. That is why this Government has had to step in to what is a very significant issue, particularly in the Auckland area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152d8dd34d8a4ab597d21831b64c1d25\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226677fd5ed65540919b4d57cbf9451ed0\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It is working. We are working through the issue very, very carefully. We now have in place some regulations that govern the kinds of timber to be used in the process. We have to go through a very complex commercial situation to try to unravel a mess. The mess was laid down by the same blind ideology that that member and his party will take into the future\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b4e563b528b40ec857a854071616ce2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: George Hawkins!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7b2ac0627848469d2535a734318c05\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It is not. I applaud the efforts of the Ministers in managing this difficult process. This Government has grappled with the issues, and has moved ahead and set up the new Department of Building and Housing, which will be responsible for all these issues. That member said: \u201CSix different Ministers for building issues.\u201D Well, the fact is we will now have one Minister overseeing the Department of Building and Housing, who will oversee all these responsibilities and issues. That has not occurred before, and it is the very reason that this situation has occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EResponsibility has been in a whole lot of different areas of Government, and commercial law and the smart, wise boys in the building industry have ripped people off, particularly in the Auckland area, because the laws laid down by the previous National Government, based on the blind ideology that the market would deliver to everyone, were insufficient to protect those people into the future. So we have set up the Department of Building and Housing. There will be a Minister responsible. We have tightened regulations and improved the standards and the types of timber that can be used. I have every confidence that, while not offering a perfect solution\u2014I do not think any honest Government would say that it could\u2014it is a huge step forward to protect the consumers in this country and the people who buy homes in good faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf we ever\u2014God help us\u2014see a National Government on the Treasury benches again, this country can be assured that we will be back in the same commercial situation that would allow leaky homes and rorts to occur right throughout the economy, because the National Party believes the market will deliver to everyone. Well, I say to Nick Smith and the National Party that they should wake up, because that does not work. This Government has had to step into the issues in the building industry, take stock, grapple with a difficult issue, change the whole structure in Government, set up a new Department of Building and Housing, and do the things that are necessary to move this situation forward. I am happy to say that this Government has taken huge steps to make progress, and I am confident that we will move forward in the same way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022723b21425a7647b6b101a89e1d589587\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022723b21425a7647b6b101a89e1d589587\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have just been listening to the Minister doing exactly what this Government has always done and, it appears, what it will continue to do\u2014blame everybody but the real part of the industry that brought this whole debacle into being, which is the Building Industry Authority. When will a Minister acknowledge that the authority had everything to do with this particular problem? We saw in the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service report that the Department of Building and Housing is looking at acceptable standards, and that the new standards will adopt internationally recognised best practices for weathertightness. That is great! That would make me feel great and full of confidence, if it were not for the fact that the same people who were in the Building Industry Authority are doing this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe authority adopted new standards in 1995 and 1998, which led to the introduction of kiln-dried timber and monolithic cladding, the combination of which was catastrophic. Did the authority carry out any tests on those products to make sure that they were compatible? No, it just accepted the industry and manufacturers\u2019 warranties and specifications as proof that the products were OK. Did the authority listen to the industry\u2019s concerns? No, it just totally ignored them and carried on with the whole process. It totally ignored the industry\u2019s concerns right throughout. Did the authority act to rectify its mistakes when the problem became obvious to everybody else except the authority and the Minister who was in charge of the authority at the time? No, it did not. The authority did nothing. In fact, it stuck its head in the sand, and totally ignored and denied that anything was happening\u2014and the rotting homes problem continued for years on end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E It was interesting to hear Clayton Cosgrove in the House yesterday say that Labour, and he, had known for 10 years that this problem was developing. That is an admission that the Government knew about the problem and the Minister knew about the problem for at least 10 years before they acknowledged it. Clayton Cosgrove admitted that in this House yesterday. If members look at his Hansard they will see that he admitted that. So this Government had known about these problems all along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThis Government set up the Department of Building and Housing, which absorbed the Building Industry Authority. The authority created this environmental, economic, and health problem of monumental proportions, yet that same organisation\u2014the department\u2014is being protected and shielded by this Government. The Government has put up $4.5 million to protect the department from any legal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd1da8c0d354f23b623076197c26829\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: No, $6 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c28fad90965d4faeb68fc7ed1b0f86bb\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: It is now $6 million, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b625c548e2c749e1b54ad5339c47360f\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What does New Zealand First think?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c87c5a9a77084c2ba28a7f578843dcd8\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand First thinks it is an absolute disgrace, and we want the Department of Building and Housing to be reviewed and the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service to be reviewed and reformed, because it is not providing the service that it was meant to or that everybody expected of it, particularly in terms of the department\u2019s treatment of it. The Weathertight Homes Resolution Service was the one way that homeowners had of achieving a successful resolution, but the department refuses to take part in the process. The conditions were set by the Department of Building and Housing, yet it holds all the ace cards. Firstly, it refused to participate in the Government\u2019s Weathertight Homes Resolution Service, which was set up to be a speedy, flexible, and cost-effective resolution for those homeowners. Secondly, it uses every effort to remove itself from the legal process. As well, the Crown Law Office has stated that it will not pay a cent to anyone undergoing mediation, because it will carry this issue right on through to every appeal process that this country has available to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe Department and the Government have no intention of looking after the people of New Zealand who have that problem. It is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u00226f8ca616b1fd48b898052bebd2d9fa89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f8ca616b1fd48b898052bebd2d9fa89\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I believe that this issue\u2014this leaky building scenario and the department we are looking at\u2014is probably one of the most serious issues that the country is facing at the moment. I have seen Government members stand up time and time again in this debate and proclaim that the Government is showing leadership. Well, where is the leadership on this issue? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe unfortunate part with the leaky homes situation is that the time bomb is ticking. The Government has a responsibility, and it is even classified here\u2014the cost of litigation. The report states that the authority is one of a number of defendants in law suits. So the Government has a responsibility to look at this issue. But the problem that people with a leaky home have is that as every day goes past the situation gets worse. We have families living in Auckland, and no doubt in other parts of the country, who are living in homes that would now be dangerous. I have heard of people who have walked into their living room and a hole in the floor has just opened up and the floor has collapsed because it has been absolutely rotten. Young children have gone out on to a terrace and it has collapsed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EA Government that shows leadership on this issue needs to pick up the responsibility. Yes, the issues of resolving this problem are no doubt long and complex. But there is a very simple solution to this. The Government immediately needs to make available to people an interest-free loan so that the homes can immediately begin to be rectified, and then the process and the discussion with councils can take place on who is responsible for what. Do not forget that we have said that new standards have been put in place. Well, let me assure members that the standards, as good as they may be, are absolutely as useless as the previous standards if the inspections are not done and the new regulations are not checked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAs a qualified carpenter and joiner I assure members that the majority of the problems in the leaky homes situation are not because of the materials, but because of the standard of workmanship put into those homes. Any timber in a home will eventually rot if water is flowing through it. Therefore, when there are no satisfactory flashings around windows and doors to prevent water from flowing into a home\u2014[Interruption] Dail Jones can bleat away as a lawyer. They are the ones who are responsible for making all these laws and regulations that are put into place. But, when the rubber hits the road the bottom line is that people have to rectify their homes. Rules and regulations will never make a home watertight. There has to be good workmanship, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EUnited Future believes that the Government has a responsibility to begin fixing these homes immediately. A time bomb will be going off. The longer this problem is left the more expensive the houses will be to repair. Many families bought their homes in good faith. Councils, or the correct authorities, had checked them. They have issued codes of compliance, yet in many cases those homes and houses did not comply with the very regulations they were supposed to be built under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI believe that watertightness is one of the most significant issues we need to deal with, and it is not the time right now to apportion blame. It is time right now to find a satisfactory method whereby people who have problems with their homes can start to rectify the defects and get them fixed and under way. Yes, there is then a process to follow on in finding who is responsible and where the money will come from. But from my perspective, if the Government is serious about getting New Zealanders into home ownership, if it is serious about the social consequences of people having a good home to live in, then it must deal with this most significant issue\u2014this watertightness of homes\u2014immediately. The Government should provide a pathway for those New Zealanders, instead of delegating responsibility and shifting the blame here and there, which really is not helping the very people who are crying out for help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThose people have stretched themselves to buy their homes and now they are being told they will have litigation cases to attend to and they will have to go to court. Where will they get the money from? In many cases it may cost them $60,000 or $70,000 to go to court to get a decision to shift the blame, or a portion of blame, whereas it may cost only $50,000 or $60,000 to actually repair their house. Who is to say that they will win their court case, and even then they still will not have a repaired home? We need to make sure that the work will be done. I encourage the Government and other parties to get together and say that we need to get finance available to those people so that they can begin the repair process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022a865a91e4d544afaa5e248c1039692da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a865a91e4d544afaa5e248c1039692da\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First regards this issue of weathertight homes so seriously that out of the four calls we are entitled to in this debate of 3 hours, we are taking two on this issue. This is the most important issue facing Auckland at the moment, and other areas as well. In my view it is more important to Auckland than the transport situation, which has greatly improved in recent times. This is a terribly, terribly serious situation. Of course, we have just heard from a United Future member who said that he does not agree with the Government on this particular issue, but he will vote with the Government when it comes to a vote, because his party is supporting the Government in supply. So there is a bit of a double standard taking place there for United Future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis issue has now reached a situation whereby a court case in Auckland today is so complicated that there are be two plaintiffs and 27 defendants or third parties in the one set of proceedings, and that is excluding the local authority. There can be 29 parties in one proceeding, and that is an utter disgrace. It is as if families are living in devastation akin to a tsunami. Now if a tsunami had been declared in Auckland, this Government would have stepped in and done something. But this Government is failing to do anything at all. It is all very well setting up a committee, but that is not what really matters. This problem goes back to the early 1990s, when Carter Holt Harvey conned the Building Industry Authority into approving non-boric treated timber generally for timber framing, in particular for exterior framing and bottom plates. The authority should have known that, inevitably, defective or inadequate workmanship would allow moisture through monolithic cladding and cause rot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI disagree entirely with the United Future member. If there is a bad set of specifications and a bad set of materials no good workman can fix the problem, because it is intrinsically defective. That is the problem United Future and this Government cannot understand. The National Government was warned of the problem. The Labour Government was warned of the problem. Indeed, George Hawkins was written to about the problem, but, as usual, he took no responsibility. He did not even bother to read the letter, which indicated there would be a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENow, we have these extensive, lengthy court proceedings that will go on forever. The time surely has come when we as members of Parliament must accept responsibility, and I make that point in particular to Russell Fairbrother and the Minister, who tried to make an effort in his speech. New Zealand First says we all have to accept responsibility. I was not here in 1991, or whenever, but even those who were here surely must accept responsibility. We must all accept responsibility. We cannot have a situation where Prendos says it is about $10 billion to fix, and someone else says it is about $5 billion. The people concerned are living a nightmare day and night, and have been for years and years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESection 91 of the Building Act, which covers the Building Industry Authority, makes it clear that it was the Building Industry Authority\u2019s problem. Who is behind the Building Industry Authority? Inevitably it is this Parliament. New Zealand First made the point in this House in 2002 that everyone must get a proper report, and get a clear assessment of the loss and the damage\u2014which must be known by now\u2014and that the Government must consider footing the bill. But the problem will never be finalised, because, of course, the problem can occur in cases that we do not even know about today. Really this Parliament has to say that it is the Building Industry Authority\u2019s problem, that Parliament is behind the authority, and we must accept that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ELawyers are confidently predicting that, at least in relation to the untreated timber issue, the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court will hold that the Building Act did impose a duty of care, and negligence in respect of the approval of non-boric treated timber, and that ultimately the courts will hold the Building Industry Authority negligent and in breach of that duty of care. That is going to happen in the Supreme Court one day. I say to the Government, why wait for 5 or 10 years? Why put up money for lawyers to keep defending these proceedings and delaying the whole thing? This debate today is about the $6 million this Government has put up to defend all these cases. That is all we are debating today. Six million bucks is being paid to Government lawyers, but, of course, what about the lawyers for the other side? As I say, in this case, 29 parties are involved, excluding the local authorities. [Interruption] Mr Fairbrother can laugh and joke about it. It is a big issue in Auckland; it may not be an issue in Napier. This is a big issue for Aucklanders, and New Zealand First says that Parliament has to accept that it is an issue, and that we have to front the costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfb37a16b1d54356a57751c64016d356\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfb37a16b1d54356a57751c64016d356\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E It is correct that the old Building Industry Authority should share some responsibility, but not all the responsibility, for the weathertightness issue. The speakers before me have neglected to observe that under the Building Act 2004 the Building Industry Authority became disestablished as a stand-alone authority and was brought under the new Department of Building and Housing. That makes clear, of course, a line of authority, and that line of authority is important as we discuss the current Building Industry Authority and the situation of weathertightness. And it is apposite not to leave out the cry for tax cuts, because the old Building Industry Authority represented the policy of \u201Cfewer taxes, let the market decide, let anarchy rule, let the consumer suffer, and let the devil take the hindmost\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThose who bothered to listen to the submissions during the weathertightness inquiry and those who bothered to read the careful report of the Government Administration Committee on that inquiry, which took place a year or two ago and which gave rise to the Building Act 2004 and to the re-establishment of the Building Industry Authority as part of the Department of Building and Housing, would have discovered that in the mesh of responsibilities under the 1991 Act, the ultimate responsibility for the working of that Act fell not on the Building Industry Authority\u2014which was an advisory body, not an enforcement body\u2014but on the territorial authorities. I recall that was in section 28 of the 1991 Act. Territorial authorities had reposed in them the enforcement responsibilities\u2014that is, they were the co-parent in the old Building Act\u2014for establishing a safe regime for building houses and homes for people in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EWhat we have in the anarchy of the marketplace, which is controlled by tax cuts, is a situation whereby everybody looks after themselves and tries to evade responsibilities. Of course, it is easy to sheet responsibility home to the Government today for the failure of Governments over 14 years, before this Government addressed the issue. It is easy for people to say they will point the finger at this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E But let us go back to the old Building Act to see what that structure was and how it failed. It failed dismally, and many good citizens are paying the price today of that failure. However, let us not spread alarm by blaming the materials and the building industry, or by making people lose confidence in the houses they presently have and in the houses that are being constructed. The number of homes that failed the test of weathertightness is relatively small compared with the number of houses that were built in the period. Sure, the failures are spectacular and the losses for individuals are huge, but there are many competent builders out there who did a good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EOf course, the competency of builders was hindered by another tax-cut measure: that of abolishing the apprenticeship scheme. In the anarchy that resulted from that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f6b3918d5fe4d289d6ecd46649523dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It was never abolished. Absolute rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e29d8fbf50f415e8873146b0a8a94ae\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: Even Nick Smith could have become a builder. All he would have needed to set himself up as a builder was a ute, a dog, and a radio. But if people do not have the skills, they cannot interpret the plans, tell the designer where the plans are defective, or know which materials should be used for internal or dry spaces. They do not have the skills to know which materials should not be used where they will get wet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe problems in this whole scenario are those of the abandonment of responsibility, and of leaving it to the imperial, politically correct, social engineering thing called \u201Cthe marketplace\u201D. Those who bang on about social engineering forget that the ultimate weapon of social engineering is tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002212b38c338b214d69950daf96879d9f73\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report of the Government Administration Committee on the 2003/04 financial review of the Building Industry Authority be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207d4b7a12bfc4f1a95d9d106d02622bd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The 3 hours for the debate on the performance of Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises has expired. I shall report this debate to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022360ac8adaa1c4d3c8325cb1e515bf940\u0022\u003ELand Transport Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1f8f7dd52e04010965ecbb7d0437bed\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000110\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 10 May.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00229c592e918f0b49c3967a9e662b4e061b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c592e918f0b49c3967a9e662b4e061b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Let me say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f2b0b80ba44806a2cd0814be27a0e4\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t use it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022197cc0b3bb464a8c906a367023014774\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Members over there are telling me not to use the 4 minutes 30 seconds I have left to speak. But between my last contribution and this one, the Government has seen fit\u2014and it is right and proper that it has\u2014to listen to New Zealand First, and has produced a Supplementary Order Paper that will, in fact, ease the burden of some taxi-drivers who have, in the distant past, been guilty of some crime. I am told in the information the Government has sent me\u2014and it has been very cooperative, which might please Clayton Cosgrove; it has sent me quite a lot of information\u2014that this legislation could affect 600 current taxi-drivers, or people with passenger licences, of which 200 will get the right of appeal. We think that is fair. I point out to Government members that if they want justice in this country, and I am sure they do, then it has to be embraced with fairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBut an area that I do not think the Government has yet taken on board in terms of this bill\u2014and I emphasise that New Zealand First is going to support the bill\u2014is one that we are concerned about. It is the courtesy buses that are run by clubs. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, I recall, was informed that clubs seek donations to run these buses, but I have since found out that some of the major clubs in this country would not be able to provide this service on the basis of donations alone, and therefore have a minimum charge. From what I can gather, the clubs provide a very, very good service. The courtesy buses pick up their clients at their homes, charge them something like $2 or $3, and bring them to their clubs. The people enjoy their evenings in the clubs, then, for another $2 or $3, they are taken home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill will make that illegal, because it provides only for courtesy buses run on the basis of donations. The manager of the Cosmopolitan Club in Mount Maunganui, which, I believe, is one of the largest clubs in New Zealand, told me that the service could well be in jeopardy if he is not allowed to charge a fee, albeit a very modest one. I understand that many other clubs are also in the same circumstances. I spoke with the Minister of Transport on this, and he asked me to get some letters from the clubs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn very short order, I have had this amount of letters from clubs, which illustrates the depth of concern. They come from all over the place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EObviously there is one from the Cosmopolitan Club in Mount Maunganui. I have a couple from cosmopolitan clubs. I have one from the Alexandra District Club in the South Island\u2014the message has got around pretty well. I have other letters from Matamata, from the Petone Workingmans Club, the Napier Returned Services Association, and the Whangarei Returned Services Association. So this is a widespread problem. If we do not allow these clubs to put on a minimal charge\u2014if the Supplementary Order Paper does not come into being when the bill goes through the Committee stage\u2014there is a real risk that this service will disappear, or it will be run illegally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI can see that some Government members are listening\u2014the Minister for Transport Safety is listening. I ask honourable members whether that is what we want. Should we not be facing reality, what is happening out there in the real world? Should the laws not reflect what is happening, as long as it is legal? We are turning a perfectly legal, sound operating activity into an illegal activity. The argument will be that those people should get passenger licences. That is not always possible or practical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00222b40e7d7840a4b6ea4ff1e3cb0a7b51b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b40e7d7840a4b6ea4ff1e3cb0a7b51b\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise to the House, but in my haste this morning I grabbed the wrong glasses and I am visually impaired this morning. We support this legislation. To those people who are listening to the debate this morning, it may be of some comfort to know that to me this was a bill that showed how select committees and Parliament should work, in terms of the way the members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee put aside political point-scoring and worked together to achieve a result that most people supported and were happy with. The bill dealt with some very serious issues, too. It dealt with a number of things, as the commentary sets out. The serious issue for me, especially, was transport service licensing. This was known as the legislation that was going to clean up the taxi industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWhen the legislation first came to the select committee, many of us did not think it was tough enough on the taxi industry, in two areas. One area was the signage for taxis, and the other concerned the drivers of taxis and buses who had convictions for serious offences\u2014in particular, sexual offences. There is one such case before the courts at the moment. When the bill came to the select committee, it caught only those people who wanted to go into the taxi industry and who, therefore, would be applying for a licence. Lianne Dalziel from Labour and I, in particular, felt that that was not strong enough, and that for the taxi industry to enjoy a good reputation overall we needed to clean out the people already in the industry who have a serious conviction. I stress here that the bar is very high. We have made the provision retrospective, but the bar is still quite high. We are not prohibiting people who have a minor conviction from driving a taxi or a bus. From memory\u2014and, as I say, I cannot read the bill properly at the moment, but my glasses are on their way\u2014it relates to people who have been convicted of a crime that carries a sentence of 7 years\u2019 imprisonment as a minimum. People do not have to be sentenced to that, but the offence carries that sentence. One has to be convicted of quite a serious crime to receive a sentence like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIt was very disappointing that the member from the Green Party felt that that was too hard, that it went back too far, that people could have something dragged up from their past, and that people may have rehabilitated themselves and could drive a taxi again. I have nothing against rehabilitation, but people who get in a taxi are entitled to know that the person driving that taxi has been cleared and that it is safe. I have heard the Taxi Proprietors Federation pulled up about this issue in interviews, and the head of that federation has been asked why the federation did not clean out the industry, and why it granted licences to those drivers. Of course, the federation does not control that; it is not the gatekeeper. The Land Transport Safety Authority, as it was then, was the gatekeeper for people getting a licence to drive a taxi. From replies to written questions that I have put to the Minister, I have found the Land Transport Safety Authority did not have a list of all the people granted a licence to drive a taxi who had a conviction for a sexual offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EHopefully, this legislation will go some way towards improving the reputation of the taxi industry. There are some very good taxi-drivers who take pride in their profession. Their reputations are being brought down all the time by people going into the industry who have no knowledge of\u2014yes, I will say it\u2014New Zealand culture. Just because a woman who gets into a cab may have had too much to drink, or may be wearing revealing clothing, that does not mean she is asking to be sexually abused or sexually molested. That is not an excuse, any more than we would say that a man who gets into a taxi wearing a Hugo Boss suit, with a wallet bulging in his back pocket, is asking to be robbed. I do not care how much women who get into taxis have had to drink. That is the reason they get a taxi\u2014to get safely home. They do not get into a taxi to be forced to commit indecencies on the taxi-driver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe other issue was that of signage. The ACT party disagreed with the National Party over that. We believe that signage is a safety issue. I can understand exactly how people feel when they look along a cab rank and cannot distinguish one cab from another because, in Wellington, the cabs are all white and they all have yellow and black signage. If, like me, people only use Wellington Combined Taxis because they know those taxis are safe and reliable, but they have grabbed a cab, got into it, and started on their way before they realise the cab does not belong to the taxi company they rely on but to another company that is passing off and trading on the good reputation of Wellington Combined Taxis by copying its signage, for me that is a safety issue. Yes, there is competition and commercial legislation that deals with that, but as the industry owners who appeared before the select committee said to us, it is very expensive and time consuming for them to take a case to the Commerce Commission under the Fair Trading Act. They may win it, but so what? It is very difficult for them to enforce a decision, once a taxi company has copied all the signage. So those are the two main issues that we dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe also dealt with the issue of whether the drivers of courtesy vehicles should be subject to the same stringent barriers as apply to those who drive for remuneration or reward. The report back to the House excludes them from the legislation, because they provide an important service in terms of getting people home safely from clubs or wherever they are, and including them would be too difficult and punitive, and would disadvantage a lot of the people who rely on courtesy vehicles to get around. However, I do hope that when this legislation is passed\u2014and it will be passed under urgency\u2014the people who operate courtesy vehicles do not just sit back and heave a sigh of relief that they have been excluded from the legislation. As we said in the select committee, we would encourage the providers of courtesy vehicles to develop in-house policies to screen their drivers. I cannot emphasise that enough. Whether they should be included in the legislation has been considered by Parliament. The providers of courtesy vehicles should be on notice that although they have been excluded from the legislation this time, if they do not voluntarily set up in-house practices and codes to screen their drivers and make sure they are safe, then they will run the risk of being regulated by Parliament. It is not too hard for them to do that. There are very good organisations like Safe Network in Auckland, run by John McCarthy, which deals with trying to rehabilitate and run programmes for recidivist sex offenders. He has been there long enough to recognise the signs of potential recidivism, and he is more than happy to provide guidelines for organisations that may run courtesy vehicles for kids\u2019 sports teams, for Cubs and Brownies, and for all those sorts of organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI am proud that this legislation will be passed while I am still in the House, and I look forward to it having a positive effect, especially on the taxi industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u002288f5958703c642ab8a8ad3425f121e2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288f5958703c642ab8a8ad3425f121e2b\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future, which will also support the Land Transport Amendment Bill. I also was able to sit at various meetings of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee as it was considering the bill, under the able chairmanship of Mark Gosche. It was pleasing, as other members have already said, that there was unity across all the parties that the issues we were dealing with in the legislation were important. It was great to see the cooperation as the members discussed rationally issues that were sometimes fairly hot and contentious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EOne of the first things to be touched on was the provisions with regard to drink-driving\u2014the \u201Cthree strikes and you\u2019re out\u201D approach. First-time offenders face just the current court-imposed penalties, but the legislation recognises the challenges we face with drunken drivers on the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EIt is ironic that we want to get drunk drivers off the road, and we are also dealing with the taxi industry. Taxis are often the very method used by people who have the common sense to realise that they have had a little bit too much to drink. As Deborah Coddington said, that especially applies to young ladies. We are putting into place measures that mean that, hopefully, the taxi company will be interested only in taking them from their point of pickup to their home. Unfortunately, even recently, we have seen examples again on our roads where the taxi industry has failed in its choice of drivers, and there has been inappropriate behaviour from some taxi-drivers. This legislation will go a long way\u2014hopefully, all the way\u2014to rectify those problems. At one stage, the select committee looked at putting a blanket ban on drivers who had serious convictions, but I see the bill has been amended so that in certain cases there will be a right of appeal for those with minor convictions. I think that is fair. We have to accept that, after a period of 10 years, some people have definitely turned their lives round. So there will be a way that they can appeal, if they have behaved well over a long period of years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI know that the disabilities industry welcomes the recommendation to put Braille identification in taxis, for blind people. Of course, as Deborah Coddington said, one cannot necessarily pick up from the colours of the car which taxi company the car one is hopping into belongs to. That is even worse for blind people; they have no idea what company it is. Now all the companies will have to have Braille identification, and blind people will be able to pick up which taxi company they are with, the name of the driver, and what the cab number is. I think that is a step forward. It is definitely a progressive step indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAnother part of the legislation that has been altered is that police are now able to serve at the roadside a notice of licence suspension. I had thought they were always able to do so, and was surprised to learn that they could not. Previously, they had to try to catch people at home, if their demerit points had got over 100; they had to find those people, who had often moved flats or were not at home. But, now, if someone is picked up on the road for any offence\u2014it may just be that the brake lights are not working\u2014and the police discover that the person has exceeded 100 demerit points, they will be able to serve a notice of licence suspension on the roadside, and that driver will be taken off the road. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E United Future raised the issue of excessively noisy vehicles. That is a particular problem in some of our tourism spots. For example, in Larry Baldock\u2019s area, Tauranga, there is a problem with people who, in the later hours of night, when tourists who have arrived in the country are trying to sleep, use excessively noisy vehicles. It may not necessarily be the vehicle itself that is noisy; maybe the noise is from the tyres, the stereo, or whatever. But people are being kept awake at night, and tourists are, in some cases, avoiding certain spots because of the noise level. I welcome discussion in the Committee stage about demerit points now being able to be issued to people who offend in such cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAnother point that has been discussed relates to the passenger service licence for courtesy buses. That is an interesting issue to talk through. Yes, service industries use courtesy buses\u2014we think of RSAs and those types of institutions that have courtesy vehicles that take people home or pick them up to bring them to the club for a few drinks\u2014but it is more wide ranging than that. Sports clubs use them. There are groups that care for children after school that have courtesy vehicles to pick up children and bring them to after-school care clubs, or to places where they can do their homework, etc. They are providing a service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e77475275f14e7faca296f163cbd75b\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Pick it up, you\u2019re losing the audience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931dba7d24a7441cb7b9242595e77292\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. Maurice Williamson is really wanting to wind everything up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270a56868ecf745e1b6239d4abbfe85e8\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Get a bit of excitement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ef203cac4c446499f6ff675bea7a787\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Williamson how we can be excited about courtesy buses. These sorts of things need to be worked through. At the moment, as Deborah Coddington said, such groups will be exempted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI also welcome the improvement\u2014and I say to Maurice Williamson that I think it is the major one\u2014to the logbook system. I think logbooks are essential; they have done a lot to bring safety to the industry. Now, as we move into the electronic age, we find that a lot of the more modern taxi companies run electronic logbooks that cannot be fiddled like a manual logbook can, yet drivers have had to run the two in conjunction with each other. Now we have released the courier industry, in relation to lighter vehicles, from having to have a logbook. That will stop a lot of paperwork and effort. It will be interesting to see whether the industry handles that responsibly, or whether we run into challenges with an industry that has been given the freedom to run without logbooks. Only time will tell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EUnited Future supports this legislation, and I have no doubt that my colleague Larry Baldock, who is our transport spokesperson, will add additional stuff as we go into the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022494191ca39a247d08f76d8c4768a65cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022494191ca39a247d08f76d8c4768a65cb\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is supporting this bill. It makes a lot of good amendments to the land transport regulations. The issue of taxi-drivers has come up in the debate so far, and it did exercise the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. Members will note from the commentary on the bill that, although the Green Party supports improved safety for taxi passengers in terms of preventing unsuitable people from holding licences that allow them to carry passengers, we did criticise the permanent character of the exclusion of certain people who have committed serious offences. That view is in line with the Green Party approach that we cannot hold somebody\u2019s transgressions against them forever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe are in favour of rehabilitation. That is the essence of the clean slate legislation that was initiated by my Green colleague Nandor Tanczos and then became a Government bill under the name of Phil Goff and passed through Parliament. The concept behind that legislation is that we do not punish people forever. It is true that the clean slate legislation is about less serious offences\u2014the concept is that after 7 years, a minor conviction can be scrubbed from a person\u2019s record instead of it affecting his or her whole life. In terms of serious offences, our general approach to rehabilitation is that as much as possible people should be given chances in life to really make amends, contribute to society, and have a fulfilling life, even if they have done time for committing very serious crimes. We should not hold it against them forever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Greens propose that there be a discretion to allow the Director of Land Transport to issue a passenger endorsement to someone who has committed a serious crime according to the list provided in the bill, if the director is satisfied that there is no risk to public safety now or in the foreseeable future. That would be a very high test, but it would mean that the offence was not held against the person forever. Not to do that would, in some ways, elevate taxi-driving above some other professions in which there is danger, such as the sensitive area of early childhood education. We should not have a totally forever, prescriptive sort of approach to the exclusion of people from that particular profession. Sure, the offences listed in the bill are serious\u2014attempt to murder, conspiracy to murder, wounding with intent, causing grievous bodily harm, aggravated wounding or injury, kidnapping, aggravated robbery, firearms offences, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is true that there should be an exclusion for such people, but the Greens are saying that years later, when such people have rehabilitated themselves\u2014and a number of people in our society who have committed murders or done very serious things have later contributed in a very effective way to our society\u2014there has to be room for discretion. The Green Party will support giving the director a discretion in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022582e8fc9c68a4fc89b87366db498bd89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022582e8fc9c68a4fc89b87366db498bd89\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call in this debate and to congratulate the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on some extremely good work in bringing this bill back to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI want to comment briefly on the taxi-driver issue. A whole bunch of issues around taxi-drivers cause concern. Recently I was in Auckland to do a couple of things, and I caught a cab off the rank to get back to where I was staying. As I hopped in, the driver said: \u201CThis is my second day.\u201D, and I suddenly realised that I would have enormous difficulty getting anywhere, much less to my destination. Indeed, it proved to be that way. I had to tell the driver where I was going, and I was more confused than she was. I despair at what the Parliamentary Service has to pay out in taxi chits on occasions like that. It took us an extraordinary amount of time to get from the centre of Auckland out to Mount Wellington. I shuddered\u2014I nearly wrote out two taxi chits, I was so embarrassed about the size of the amount to get back from the city. [Interruption] I must say that that crossed my mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI note that Peter Brown has made some good comments this morning about work that has been done in the interim since the commencement of this debate. I do think it is right that we take a strong line on who can and who cannot be a taxi-driver, particularly in relation to violent sexual offenders. There is one cab company in this city that I simply will not use. There is a history of reasons why I will not use that cab company. It goes back a long way, to a time when the company treated a rape complaint frivolously. I simply will not use that company at all. Indeed, if the company I do use suggests to me that it will send a cab from another company, I tell it not to bother. Even to this day, I would rather walk than use a company that took a complaint of that sort frivolously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThese are not frivolous issues, and it is good to see that they are now being tidied up in this bill. It is good legislation. I am delighted to see that we have perhaps managed to sort out an issue that concerned New Zealand First. So there will be rather widespread support for this bill, and I am just sorry for Maurice Williamson that his radio audience is no longer listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f79fe80d5a4626a7b37990895f2113\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f79fe80d5a4626a7b37990895f2113\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the Land Transport Amendment Bill on its report back from the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, because in the case of this legislation the select committee worked exceedingly well. There was pretty much broad agreement on the objectives that needed to be achieved. Obviously there was some niggling about little bits and pieces of detail, and I want to get off my chest one of my niggles. This has more to do with the officials than with the Government. It relates to the fact that when the photo driver\u2019s licence first came in, I wanted it to include\u2014and I thought that, as the then Minister, I should have had at least some say\u2014a field to show when one had first obtained a licence. In my case it was when I turned 15, back in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d01fe5e26449fc950c3cd8ec111c13\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: 1945.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b490d973f3f745f59a14c052fcff9a8d\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was before the First World War, as Darren Hughes will remember. I wanted to have that date on my licence, and the officials said no. They told me that the licences were to comply with a European Union standard layout, with the flag and the fields in certain areas and in a certain order. I remember having quite an argument about that. I was finally beaten into submission, because officials always ruled the roost when I was around. [Interruption] All right\u2014sometimes. The officials said that we had to stick with the layout, so that when one went to a European Union country or elsewhere one would be carrying a licence in a standard format. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI am just staggered to learn that the advice to the Government has now changed. I think that is good. I am delighted that the licence is changing, and I think that will be great. I have a question for the Minister for Transport Safety. When we get another licence after this legislation comes in, will the new licences go back to showing the date when one obtained one\u2019s original licence, or will they show the date when one first obtained a photo driver\u2019s licence? I do not know whether the database now records that I first got my driver\u2019s licence in 1966. That is a really important point, because I would like my licence to show the date as 1966, and that I have been driving for that length of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI am pleased that the committee dealt with some quite central issues in this legislation. I am happy to say that one of those issues\u2014I know it is of serious concern to people like Deborah Coddington, and it should be of serious concern to everybody in this House\u2014concerns the people who drive our passenger service vehicles, mainly taxis. I am not so strident about the requirements for those who drive a big bus, because unless it is very late at night and on a very long, thin, sparse route where there may be only one passenger, a bus driver has a lot less ability than a taxi-driver to do dreadful things to the passengers. In a taxi there is quite often, especially late at night in a lot of parts of the city, a one-on-one relationship. I think the passenger has an absolute right to know that the person who holds a P endorsement and is driving the taxi meets a number of qualifications. Passengers have a right to know that the person is a good and safe driver, has knowledge of the area and will not try to go from the city out to Mount Wellington via Albany\u2014as happened to Mark Peck\u2014and, more important than any of that, does not have serious past convictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI am prepared to be really hard-nosed on this issue. I am happy that the committee has reported back that, as one of its changes to the bill, this measure will affect not only people who apply for a P licence from now on but also people who may even be in the industry right now. I am sorry if those people get upset about that. I do not actually care whether they do. Anyone who has been convicted of murder, of a serious sexual offence, or of a serious violent offence, even if it was 20 years ago, should get another job. Those people should go and drive a truck, a bulldozer, a carrier, or a grader. I am sorry, but if they have been convicted of an offence like that, the taxi industry is the one industry I do not think they should be in\u2014on a one-to-one basis with a female passenger late at night\u2014even if they have had a clean slate for a while. That may be punitive to one or two taxi drivers who, like Steve Maharey, have led a life of blameless excellence for the last 20 years and would like to stay in the industry. I am sorry, but if this legislation picks on two people, that is bad luck. Hard cases make bad law. This legislation is the way to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIt is not as though we have a shortage of taxi drivers. It is not as though we are saying that if we exclude the murderers and rapists, no one will be left to drive taxis\u2014quite the opposite of that. If anything, in Auckland we have a most serious abundance of people driving taxis. We have Russian brain surgeons who have come to New Zealand and are taxi drivers. I have to say, to the credit of the Government, that that is better than it would be if it were the other way round\u2014Russian taxi drivers coming here and being brain surgeons. Yes, it is better than that. [Interruption] Mr Duynhoven is referring to my earlier question. The issue of the date of the licence is fixed in the bill, but will the date shown be the date when one obtained one\u2019s original licence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b336475d2414c9cb32db073d4d37b27\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b150ede549549cb8c598109a7e3031b\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Good, there we are. The Minister for Transport Safety has earned his morning\u2019s pay already, by giving me an answer to that. I am happy to say that I do not want serious offenders of the nature of those on the list to drive taxis. I am pleased that the bill not only excludes such people from coming into the industry but also applies to those who are already in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThere is a lot of detail in the bill, but I want to talk about just a couple more things. The first is the issue of the chain of responsibility. I am happy to see that the legislation will be amended to allow for measures whereby in, let us say, a trucking operation, instead of pinging just the driver who may have committed an overweight offence or an unsafe driving offence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248770f28a64c4466a9d0bd033826d8a0\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s like Rodney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222222913c722c42e882667200cc50bb27\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Mr Cosgrove thinks that \u201Coverweight\u201D applies to the driver himself, personally. I am talking about the vehicle that is being driven. It is a shame that Mr Cosgrove does not keep up with these things as he should. In the past drivers would get pinged for things that they were literally squeezed into doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhen I was at university I used to drive for Refrigerated Freight Lines, a frozen pea and frozen bean trucking company. The company told us, when we came out of Napier at a certain time of the night, that we had to be at the bulk frozen stores in Auckland by 7 a.m. We would say that we simply could not do that without speeding. The bosses used to say that that did not matter, and that if we were caught speeding they would pay the fines. They told us that we had to just do it, so we did. All the drivers broke the speed limit, and I ended up being pulled over a number of times. I just gave my name, the name of my company, and so on, and off I went. The fines were all paid. Fortunately, there were no demerit points around in those days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261ee83c610784f4d9d79b75d6499aaf1\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Those were the days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8795500be3d4156b9946667879fe64a\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Those were the days. The company had to do things in that way. I kept thinking that it was a bit unfair that I was copping it. [Interruption] There were not demerit points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd9e81f341f4ea2b41a10705aff5474\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Who did that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022033a507e10fd4a41a9e50406de660819\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Demerit points came in under National. Yes, I think demerit points are good; I am not arguing against them. One of the drivers\u2014and I will not name him\u2014racked up 18 speeding tickets within 12 months, but that did not matter, because Refrigerated Freight Lines picked up the tab and paid the speeding tickets, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThis bill brings in what is called the chain of responsibility. It states that if a company makes a driver carry an unsafe load, if a direction comes from the boss that a driver is to take a container even though it is known to be overweight, or if a direction is given that a driver is to drive at a speed that exceeds the speed limit, it is now possible to extend the chain of responsibility to include all appropriate transport offences where a third party has influence over the transport task. We have done that. I know that was done at the request of the Road Transport Forum. The chief executive officer of the Road Transport Forum, Tony Friedlander, gives our committee a lot of very, very good advice. We are very lucky to have the services of those people. I look forward to dealing with some of the issues regarding this matter in the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI want now to pick up on my next little niggle. I want members to think about this, because it is not a big political issue, and I would hope that Government members may be prepared to support a slight amendment to the bill. It is to do with the little moped, Go-Ped motorised scooters. My little kids have graduated to a nice little electric scooter from the little scooter they used to stand on and use their own foot to push themselves along with. I have worked it out that the little electric motor on the scooter is 350 watts. This legislation will cover, say, someone who gets on one of those little scooters, which little kids can flick around on in parks. We are providing in this legislation that the director of Land Transport New Zealand\u2014and I really shudder at the thought of the power that could go to his head on this\u2014is able to allow those vehicles to be exempt or not exempt. I suggest a more realistic level\u2014and National members put it in our minority report\u2014of, say, 600 watts, which would cover nearly everything. In case anyone is interested, there is a table in the bill. I will cover this issue in more detail when we get into the Committee stage on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002260d9a8e5476a44dda86fdff2ef80878a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d9a8e5476a44dda86fdff2ef80878a\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call in support of the second reading of the Land Transport Amendment Bill. When I read through the report, I thought the members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee had done a great job on a whole range of different areas that a number of members will have had raised with them in their constituency clinics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EA number of people have come to see me about chartered clubs, like the \u201Ccossie club\u201D, the RSA, and the workingmen\u2019s club, which run a courtesy vehicle, normally on Friday and Saturday nights, to take members home. There has been some issue\u2014[Interruption] Never this member! There has been some issue around whether there could be a fee for that service, and whether a courtesy coach should be included as a passenger transport service. Of course, if that were the case, that would mean that the drivers were required to comply with a whole lot of extra regulation. I am very pleased that the select committee has provided for the exclusion of those courtesy vehicles from the passenger transport service definition, provided that the service is not done on a hire or reward basis. If members of the club just make a donation for the use of the van, it will be excluded from the official definition. I think that will make things a lot easier for those chartered clubs, which do a lot of work in our communities and provide a very good service for their members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EIn addition to all the other very good features of the bill, I particularly wanted to highlight that one, because I have had representations from clubs in the Otaki electorate. I am very happy to be able to support that provision of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u002266ec226f6a4e40b88911f86b199a65ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ec226f6a4e40b88911f86b199a65ce\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am really glad to have the opportunity to participate in the second reading of the Land Transport Amendment Bill. I understand that the National Party is supportive of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI challenge the self-proclaimed hard-working Minister for Transport Safety, Harry Duynhoven, to take into account my proposed amendments during the Committee stage that will further improve the objective of the bill. This bill\u2019s purpose is meant to be to \u201Cpromote, and enhance provisions in that transport legislation relating to safe road user behaviour\u201D, and also to \u201Cimprove and enhance the enforcement provisions of that transport legislation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAs I have previously raised in Parliament, in 2003 a group of Chinese New Zealanders who were driving instructors raised a whole series of concerns with regard to other driving instructors, with or without licences, and their practices. I see that, after 2 years, one of those concerns has been taken up in this legislation. But there are other concerns that I would like to take this opportunity to raise, so that we can consider amendments during the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAmongst the concerns raised by those driving instructors was one about driving instructors who are allowed to teach driving in exchange for reward or money currently having to have an I endorsement licence. I am assured that this legislation includes an offence provision, which was previously, for some reason, omitted from the Land Transport Act 1998. But the bill does not require that those I licences be displayed. So there is no way for an enforcement officer to check whether a person is entitled to teach in exchange for monetary reward. So I will move an amendment, and I hope that all parties see fit to support it at the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI will move another amendment relating to people who are allowed to teach in exchange for monetary reward. I would like to think they are currently New Zealand citizens or holders of permanent residence visas. I allude to the fact that overseas students can obtain an I endorsement, in order to teach others to drive. I do not think that is safe. For me, it is important that people who teach others in a commercial manner should, at least, have been resident in New Zealand for a considerable period of time. Those people should understand the road conditions and the safety measures that go with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI also want to raise concerns, which I have written to the Minister about, in terms of the lack of monitoring of some of the outrageous advertisements that say learners can choose their own testing officer. The Minister has written to me and assured me that Land Transport New Zealand has now taken the issue seriously and will monitor those advertisements. But I hasten to point out that the Mandarin Times, a Chinese newspaper, dated 10 June\u2014last Friday\u2014included a driving school\u2019s advertisement that said learners could choose their own testing officer, the testing route, and also to have weekend testing. In response to my query, the Minister stated that the special test to be carried out on weekends is meant to facilitate a group of people who seek their licence at the same time. If that is the case, why are there at least eight advertisements on the same day, in which every one of those driving schools or instructors offers people the option of sitting the driving test at weekends? I imagine that people want to sit it at the weekend because the traffic tends to be slightly lighter then, but that is no way to improve driving safety on New Zealand roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other concern raised with me by some of the driving instructors was about the 6-month minimum requirement before the holder of a learner\u2019s licence can convert it to a full licence. I would like the Minister later on to share with us whether there is actually discretion for a testing officer to grant dispensations for migrants in some situations. If migrants have had a long period of driving experience in their home countries, and can demonstrate, once they have passed the written test, that they are capable drivers, can they then convert a learner\u2019s licence into a full licence? On some occasions, migrants who have had sufficient driving experience find it inconvenient to have to wait 6 months. That may lead to their resorting to acquiring a licence without sitting the practical test, which they are not allowed to sit. We should discuss that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAll in all, given that the bill\u2019s purpose is to promote and enhance enforcement provisions, I have been wondering what Land Transport New Zealand has done with regard to the latest sentencing handed out to a driver\u2019s licence testing officer. He got only 280 hours\u2019 community service for selling about 100 fake licences\u2014genuine licences in one sense, but fake in the sense that the people who had acquired those licences had never sat the practical driving test. I want to know whether Land Transport New Zealand is serious about enforcing safety on roads. Is the authority appealing the sentence? Is it working with the police to appeal that light sentence handed out to a driver\u2019s licence testing officer who accepted $50 in exchange for granting a licence to people who had not sat the test? I want to know whether the Minister is serious about making sure that the people who paid to get those licences have their licences revoked. It is no laughing matter, even though Labour members may find it funny. Over 100 people might be driving on our roads without properly passing the driving test\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fccf0798847b4ddbac85100fb2b6bb9e\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Only 100?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc4a8809356d4dde85b58263e2c5b74c\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, it could be more\u2014endangering their own lives and other people\u2019s lives. I challenge Labour members to stop laughing and get serious about ensuring safety on New Zealand roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to the Minister taking a call in the Committee stage, to assure New Zealanders that corrupt officers will be pursued, and that Land Transport New Zealand will appeal the sentence of 280 hours of community service that was dished out to an officer who had received bribes in exchange for handing out licences to people who had not passed the driving test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EToday we are debating the Land Transport Amendment Bill, which is supposed to strengthen the enforcement capacity of Land Transport New Zealand, and I want to know whether the Minister will ensure that the provisions are tough enough, and whether there are the resources and the will for Land Transport New Zealand to enforce the provisions. I am looking forward to the Minister\u2019s support for the amendments I will propose in the Committee stage, and I also want an answer as to what further action the Minister will take with regard to the recent sentencing of the officer found guilty of accepting bribes to issue licences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226aee7670e8f24c7cba14ea3516127286\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022f59f98ddbb854ef38d5abbeec7bcf82d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f59f98ddbb854ef38d5abbeec7bcf82d\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Land Transport Amendment Bill that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d29f55012fef460cb1e2e6aff71ee215\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b6b8c19ebf341799e44f5b4ad774626\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5238fd9fb9644ae8a5861dea6fbdbd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5238fd9fb9644ae8a5861dea6fbdbd2\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E On some of the parts of this bill it will be a little bit difficult for us to get an exceedingly strong debate going on, because they are pretty mundane and run of the mill. But they are worthwhile. Part 1 has only one clause\u2014clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D. I guess that every bill has to have a purpose, and if we are to stick to the very\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a6466396b648cd9a8210378242b467\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re having us on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cdec0bc20694a86bbaffe266fb0514f\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Clayton Cosgrove needs to learn a lot about how legislation works, and one of the things that legislation should always have is a purpose. The purpose of this bill is to \u201Cpromote, and enhance provisions in that transport legislation relating to safe road user behaviour and vehicle safety;\u201D. I would doubt that there would be a member in the Chamber who did not believe that that was an ongoing quest for us, and for years to come, I am sure, this Parliament will be looking at ways of improving them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EOne of the ways in which change will occur over the years is in the technology used to record where vehicles travel and what they do. Already, in the heavy traffic fleet, a number of big trucks are recorded on the Global Positioning System. I imagine that paper logbooks will, one day, be an anachronism, and we will simply have everything on a Wi-Fi network running back to a base, with Land Transport New Zealand being able to look at any one truck at any one time, and with police enforcement officers being able to bring that truck up on their screens as they follow behind it, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EParagraph (b) of clause 3(1) states that another aim is to \u201Cimprove and enhance the enforcement provisions\u201D of the land transport legislation. It is that provision that I am starting to get a bit nervous about. I say to members of the Government that there has been a distinct shift in the mood out there in the community with regard to enforcement. Let me talk about the commercial vehicle investigation units of the police. I think everybody who is interested in safe operations wants those bodies to work in a collaborative and cooperative way with representatives of the heavy vehicle industry, to ensure that heavy vehicles operate in a safe way\u2014just as, say, in the civil aviation branch, people work with the industry to assist it and try to promote a safety culture. We will never actually get a safety culture if we do it only by punitive measures; we have to try to work in a collaborative and cooperative way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut I tell the Minister for Transport Safety today that the more and more times I go out and talk with operators of heavy vehicles around the country, the more and more anger I hear being expressed. The commercial vehicle investigation units have turned into a far more punitive, \u201Cping \u2019em, lock \u2019em up, throw away the key, deal to them\u201D regime, even on some of the trivial logbook technicality issues, and they are putting unbelievably punitive fines in place. Instead of those units having the effect of, as clause 3 states, improving and enhancing the enforcement provisions of the transport legislation, instead of their achieving the aim of safe road-user behaviour and better vehicle safety, they are getting almost a negative reaction from the industry\u2014\u201CIf that\u2019s how we are going to be treated, then we\u2019re going to pull down the shutters, \u2018go to the mattresses\u2019 \u201D\u2014to use an expression from The Godfather\u2014\u201Cand go to war with some of these things.\u201D I do not think that is helpful. I hope the Minister takes that on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EAt the committee the other day I raised an example of a fairly large crane operator in Tauranga, Todd and Pollock Crane Hire and Haulage. I know that the owners do not mind my mentioning it; I think they are pretty responsible operators, and it is a good company. One of their cranes happened to go from their location to a building site less than 5 kilometres away. The driver forgot to remove the counterweight, which is supposed to travel on a separate truck, and that meant that the crane was 380 kilos overweight. There was a 400-kilo fuel tank on board, so if the crane had had a nearly empty fuel tank, it would have been within the limits. The fine was $35,000. The crane has been off the road, pink-stickered, for 2 months, and has been unable to generate revenue. Quite properly, the owners of that company are angry. Yes, they know they made a mistake, and, yes, they would be happy to pay the $800 fine for the crane being overweight, because it should not have been. Yes, they want to cooperate. They would rather the commercial vehicle investigation unit guys came in, sat down, and worked with the drivers, to try to make them understand the rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut I am saddened to say that this legislation does not do very much in the area of trying to promote people working together cooperatively to, as clause 3(1)(b) states, \u201Cimprove and advance the enforcement provisions\u201D. Well, enforcement will not work unless it is the final area of use. We should ping the bad operators, and the best thing, which I have heard suggested many times, is to get a risk rating system up and running. I know that Land Transport New Zealand applied for it in the Budget and was turned down. Treasury declined it. But let me say to the Minister that we cannot treat all the operators the same, because there are some really good ones, some average ones, and some bad ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d356422294774e47920d138034391977\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d356422294774e47920d138034391977\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I want to address Part 1, \u201CPreliminary provision\u201D, and, as I have said, ACT supports the bill. Part 1 deals with the bill\u2019s purpose. I want to address an interesting issue that arises. Clause 3(2)(h) states one of the purposes of this bill is: \u201Censuring that a person whose conduct contributes to an operator\u2019s or driver\u2019s failure to comply with his or her duties under this Act is held accountable for that conduct;\u201D. That deals with the chain of responsibility, in terms of breaching the law. Later on we will be looking at Part 2, in which clause 33A inserts new Part 6C into the Land Transport Act. Part 6C follows on from the offences relating mainly to logbooks, truck-drivers, etc. It was brought in because the people involved with this legislation believed that truck-drivers cannot be held to be solely responsible for breaching the law, and that their employers were urging them to work longer hours, not to take enough rest time, or, indeed, to break the speed limit. Part 6C includes new section 79T, which deals with someone who commits an offence being subject \u201Cto a fine not exceeding $25,000, who, by act or omission, directly or indirectly causes or requires a driver to\u2014\u201D break the speed limit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWhat we will actually see in August will be very interesting. Will this legislation apply to cases that come to court where the speed limit has been broken and drivers have been urged to do so because they were, for instance, hurrying to get to a rugby match\u2014or hurrying to get the passenger in the back of the car, who was working on papers, to a rugby match, when that passenger actually came out later and said she would rather be reading a book, anyway? Well, we all know whom I am talking about. I am talking about the Prime Minister. Of course, the Prime Minister will not appear as a witness in that court case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022404b82d81fd84d6fa7ad6c5e31469570\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why isn\u2019t she?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221547e410fbe54a95800cd3d4cbd74072\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014why is she not appearing? Why is the Prime Minister not appearing as a witness in that court case? With that new section being inserted, and with the purpose of this bill being to bring into the legislation the chain of responsibility, it raises the question of whether the law applies to everybody who, knowingly or unknowingly, causes someone to break the speed limit. Will that law apply to everyone, or is a Prime Minister\u2014or, indeed, a member of Parliament, if that should come up\u2014above the law? I think that is a very important matter to address in the debate at this Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAs far as I am concerned, I believe we did not have to have that measure in the bill, because I believe that people are responsible for their own actions and should be held accountable for them. They cannot say that someone else made them break the law. Human beings have the power of free will. Unlike animals, they can think for themselves. They do have choices. People cannot speed, fill out their logbooks incorrectly, or drive when they have already been driving too long and should have taken a rest, and then say that their employers made them do it. They cannot speed and say that someone else made them do it. But if we are to hold passengers accountable under the law for causing someone to break the speed limit\u2014and we have heard that the Prime Minister did urge the drivers on in that speeding cavalcade to break the law and to, as my colleague Stephen Franks said, \u201Cspeed through the countryside, scattering peasants by the wayside like some dictator in a Third World country\u201D\u2014and if we are to bring this sort of legislation into this Parliament, then we have to make sure that when people are reportedly subject to that legislation and have done things that the public believe could bring them under this provision, justice is not only done but is seen to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI think that that is a very interesting issue, which should be looked at in the debate at this Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00221018880f12b24a92abe7a0bbf33d67e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221018880f12b24a92abe7a0bbf33d67e8\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E One of the interesting things to be taken from the previous speaker\u2019s comments is that the prosecution has apparently said that it will not be calling the Prime Minister. What we have not heard is whether any of those who are defendants will be seeking to call the Prime Minister, because it is certainly my understanding\u2014and it has been noted by others\u2014that they might find it very beneficial for their cases to do precisely that. So I suspect that we actually have not heard the end of that matter. It would certainly raise the question of what the Prime Minister said. What she did not say was whether people were acting, at least in some way, as a result of things that she might have said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f73824c57e8d4753a1e34f820cfc5a15\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to come back to the purpose of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0522fbec7d34e85b24eaad454c7f0e9\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: So that would be a very interesting point that will come out, I might add, of Part 1, which contains clause 3(2)(h) concerning the accountability of people who give instructions. So although the Chair may be saying to come back to the bill, it is precisely why that issue is directly relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOne of the other issues I wish to deal with is a matter that will come up in one of the other provisions, which is referred to as \u201Clow-speed vehicle technology\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f8e1d80aebe49389d736dd26f34131b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8f0e45716c244ec90bcf5ff344b004f\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: One would think that the Government would know that surely, by definition, when we have clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D in Part 1, everything else in the bill has to be related to the purpose of the bill. So, quite clearly, anything to do with the licensing of vehicles is covered by Part 1 of the bill. In fact, if it is not covered in Part 1, by definition it cannot be covered in subsequent parts, because it will not be fulfilling the purpose of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E I want the Committee to have a brief discussion, mostly about vehicle technology, and will raise that later on. I just want to put this question to the Minister. I do not expect him to address it now, but I imagine he will later. We have given the Director of Land Transport discretion to exempt certain low-speed vehicles from the definition \u201Cmotor vehicle\u201D, if they have a maximum power output between 300 and 600 watts. Most electric power - assisted bicycles are between 300 and 600 watts, as opposed to being less than 300 watts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI have a question that I will raise with the Minister when we get to Part 2, and I will ask him to take advice from his officials. In essence, what are the rules that the director will apply? It seems to me that too much discretion has been given to the director. Frankly, vehicles\u2014or power-assisted bicycles, as we describe them now\u2014with a power output between 300 and 600 watts should, by and large, be subject to blanket approval. It should be the exception rather than the rule that they not be approved, because the whole intent of those provisions is to allow such approval. So I appreciate that the Minister will not address that matter directly now, but will address it later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe other provisions in Part 1 relate particularly to the regulation of drivers convicted of serious criminal offences, particularly those driving taxis. Having read the Supplementary Order Paper I do have some serious questions that I will be raising later about new section 29B, \u201CPassenger endorsement may be reinstated in certain cases\u201D. It seems to me that the way that is drafted currently is too open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022086c457a31b54e228268238b089f2fdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022086c457a31b54e228268238b089f2fdf\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00225fd0cdd4ee604dbcbab621980724ef50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fd0cdd4ee604dbcbab621980724ef50\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would have thought that the junior Labour whip would show a bit more interest in promoting road safety instead of trying to shut down the debate. I am very supportive of the objective of Part 1, which is to improve and enhance the enforcement provisions in the transport legislation. I am very interested in urging the Minister to take a call to reassure the New Zealand public that Land Transport New Zealand will exercise the provisions of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIn my second reading speech I spoke about my concerns. Indeed, many people talk to me about the slow process of investigating the conduct of other officers and driving instructors in that sector. We want to know how often an internal audit or an independent audit has been carried out. The public would not have confidence in enforcement of legislation if they perceive that Land Transport New Zealand would not take complaints seriously, or if the sentence handed out to a testing officer who sold drivers licences was only 280 hours community service. That tarnishes New Zealand\u2019s reputation as a country that does not stand for corrupt practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to know what Land Transport New Zealand is doing in terms of working with the police or the Crown prosecutor. Are they working to review the light sentence that has been handed out? I understand that an investigation is under way in the same area about the conduct of testing officers or driving instructors. I think the Minister should take a call to reassure us, after the House has spent time and resources to pass legislation, that the enforcement agent will actually carry out the law, and to assure parliamentarians, such as myself, that it is serious in enforcing this legislation. Otherwise, why are we sitting here under urgency passing this legislation? Is it just to make politicians feel good?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ced83036beb44a7da680b281330f81a9\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that it\u2019s not like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae815290e54460e8eccfa8db1dcda21\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: The signs are good. The Minister seems to be ready to leap to his feet to assure us, but I am not too sure why the Minister says he cannot. The Minister is paid to say he can, instead of screaming from his seat that he cannot. I am not sure what the Minister can do. All we want is for the Minister to give us an assurance that the provisions in this Land Transport Amendment Bill will be taken seriously by Land Transport New Zealand, because its past history of responding to complaints from the public has been very slow in coming forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESo I tell the Minister that we will be on this case. I have amendments for the Committee stage, and I hope the Minister will take to them kindly. The signs are that other political parties would be supportive of my amendments, which I will go into more detail during Part 2. So, for me, as my very learned colleague the Hon Maurice Williamson says, who can argue against the purpose of promoting and enhancing road safety as well as enhancing the enforcement provisions? Surely the testing of that is in the actual implementation, and the public\u2019s perception that Land Transport New Zealand is responsive to complaints, is diligent in carrying out independent audits, and is perceived to be transparent and even-handed in its handling of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1f6eda45b694779910f97eaffb24a21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1f6eda45b694779910f97eaffb24a21\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022400b2283177f419dae56516ff25a9157\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000218\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227477e297cdde47958ea35675b37fb7d7\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00228b9b170e8a014dbcb241b1a1a762ec8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b9b170e8a014dbcb241b1a1a762ec8a\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I guess the difficulty we strike now, as a Committee, is that this is a piece of legislation with lots and lots of bits in it. It has been cleverly constructed by the Minister so that it has Part 1, which has one clause called \u201CPurpose\u201D, and then we go to Part 2, and that part, by my calculations, has something like\u2014let me get this right\u201487 clauses, and a lot of detail. I want to put in a reserve bid right from the outset that this is obviously where the rubber meets the road, where the hook meets the load on the crane, and where we need to start getting into some of the specifics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EAs I said in my second reading speech, a lot of the bill is just tidying things up. It is to cope with some offences that have not been dealt with properly in the past, and it will do some log-book process tidying up. The two big ones that I am happy about, before I talk about a couple of the niggles in this part, are by far the prohibition of people with a conviction entering the taxi industry, or the P licence holder\u2014people who have a conviction for a murder, a serious sexual offence, or a serious violent offence; we would like to exclude them, even if they are in the industry right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister has put forward Supplementary Order Paper 375, but in our view it misses the mark. I think that it will grant the right for people to appeal and the right for the director of Land Transport New Zealand\u2014and I know that a number of speakers on our side, in particular Dr Mapp, is more versed in the law and will pick that up\u2014but my view is that I am prepared to be hard and fast on it. If we were desperately short of taxi drivers I would suggest that we would have to find a way to accommodate them. But I have to say that convictions for murder, serious sexual offences, or serious violent offences are not just ordinary things. It is not just that a person has had a couple of small burglary convictions in his past when he was a young bloke with a few tattoos, and so on. They are dreadfully serious events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EMy view on those people is: \u201CSorry, get another job. Go and drive a bus.\u201D\u2014because there are lots of people on a bus, so the one-to-one thing is not quite the same; or, more important: \u201CGo and drive a tractor, a bulldozer, or a truck, or get into the construction industry. It is simply not acceptable that you were convicted for that, and then for you to say that it was a while ago.\u201D The 10 years that is currently proposed in the Supplementary Order Paper is not good enough, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f53c18617e9e4b3588e1e8f85956c0d8\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not for murder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f7cd76231ff4b8f9e032749c218c111\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, the 10 years does apply to other offences that I do not accept. Therefore, I have to give notice that the National Party will certainly be voting against the Supplementary Order Paper, but we will support the rest of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122b84ceef2b420ea02169b1247200c1\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: You rely on that legal advice from him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022400e39145594465ca28b83d4737851d7\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Mapp is a doctor of law. I tell the member that I am happy to put him against that party\u2019s legal brain any day of the week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ELet us get back to things like chain of responsibility. The Minister in the chair now is different from the Minister who was here before, and I shall repeat a few of the things I mentioned before about this. The chain of responsibility in this bill is a good move. For too long it had been possible for some dodgy operators at the company, management, and ownership end to embark on practices that were unsafe, or were skirting their responsibilities for weight loads under the truck licences that operators had. Then when the poor old driver, who was the very sort of person of last resort on the side of the road, got caught, he or she would be the one getting pinged, getting the fines, and the demerit points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe Road Transport Forum made a very good submission\u2014Tony Friedlander\u2019s team came along to the select committee and said they would like the chain of responsibility extended to include all appropriate transport offences where a third party has influence over the transport task. I am pleased to say that those changes look to be in the bill and look to be suitable. They cover not just things like speeding offences, but weight limits, load security, and a range of other issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhen it gets down to the trivial, I have an issue to discuss with the Minister, and I hope he will think about letting the Government at least have a bit of leeway on one amendment I want to put up, and that is to do with the little tiddlers\u2014the Go-Peds and the mopeds. As everyone will know, there is now a stunning level of little vehicles that mainly kids and some teenagers get around in. If one goes to the beach, one will see them with those little devices. The problem is that under the old Transport Act most of them were considered to be a motor vehicle; people had to get a licence and a number plate, pay for registration, and all of that. It was truly ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EHowever, the attempt to exempt the more trivial of these has missed the mark. I showed the select committee some photos of my little 7-year-old twins driving an electric scooter at the beach. It is not an unsafe vehicle. It is not one likely to be involved in accidents on the road, because they use it on little trailways and paths. It has a little 350-watt electric engine, and unfortunately that will still get caught up in the bureaucracy of the director of Land Transport New Zealand making decisions on it, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn relation to the minority report, I have to say that the National Party tried to be as cooperative as it could on this, as always. As members will see in the commentary on page 9 of the report, at the bottom, New Zealand National believes that 600 watts would be a more realistic cut-off point. I agree that if we get into the really big, powerful engines on some of the mopeds and Go-Peds\u2014and there are now look-alike chopper bikes out there with much bigger engines\u2014that would be foolish. But for a whole lot of the more kids\u2019-end toys, I would like to see changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI look forward to taking more calls later on, after other colleagues, especially Dr Mapp and his legal mind, on this stuff about penalties. However, I do not want bad eggs driving taxis, under, any circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2c824c49f464adb824d4d26541de751\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2c824c49f464adb824d4d26541de751\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I shall talk about two things that are of concern to me. One is Supplementary Order Paper 375 in the name of the Hon Pete Hodgson, the Minister of Transport. I agree with the last speaker, the Hon Maurice Williamson, that the Supplementary Order Paper almost overturns all the good work we have done in terms of cleaning out the taxi industry. We actually agreed in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014the Labour members agreed to this, too\u2014that if one was out, one was out. With this Supplementary Order Paper, a person can apply to be reinstated by the Director of Land Transport if that person\u2019s offence was committed more than 10 years ago and he or she has not reoffended in the 10 years leading up to the time of the application. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ETen years is a very short time for those offences. We are dealing with a very high bar. The offences are crimes like murder or a sexual offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6cb915233d2444eb59e9c5cafb3ae85\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Murder is not included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d3f5039913649768415007cf9475233\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not talking about the Supplementary Order Paper at the moment. I am talking about the actual bill as it stands, and what we agreed to. If a person\u2019s licence has lapsed for 10 years, as it reads here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022665118989eff4781a7fe1061694d3a04\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t include murder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2042acf499e4793b54ea51a17e78b22\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: I know that. The member should let me finish. The member should listen for a moment. Instead of getting so excited, she should just settle down. In relation to the specified offences, as Maurice Williamson said, if it is a sexual offence and a person got only 3 years or 2 years in jail, or did not even go to jail, it is still a sexual offence. The passengers who hire a cab, or who hire someone as a bus driver, have the right to know that that person does not have a conviction for such an offence. I do not care whether it happened 15 or 20 years ago. As Maurice Williamson said, people with such convictions should go and drive a bulldozer, but they should not drive something where they come into contact with passengers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ESo we will not be supporting Supplementary Order Paper 375. It is actually the wrong way round. What we discussed in the select committee was that if someone with a conviction thought he or she was a fit, able, and proper person to be a taxi-driver, but had had his or her P-class licence application turned down, that person could go to the High Court for a review of that decision. This Supplementary Order Paper has turned that on its head. Instead of the burden of proof being on the applicant\u2014the would-be driver\u2014that person can now go to the High Court if the director turns down his or her application to be reinstated. That is not the way that we discussed it in the select committee. The provision is far too easy. We should look at the past record of the director of the then Land Transport Safety Authority. By that, I mean that when I asked the former Minister of Transport, Paul Swain, in 2003 how many of the then current taxi drivers had convictions for sex offences, I was advised by the Land Transport Safety Authority that it did not maintain a database of all taxi-drivers with criminal convictions, nor had it done so in the past. What sort of a gatekeeper is that? Now we are turning the measure back on its head with the amendment to insert new section 29B on Supplementary Order Paper 375, which, basically, will almost take us back to the days when the authority had no clue about what was happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E The other good point Maurice Williamson made was that Part 2 and the schedules make up the rest of the bill. However, small parties like ACT get 10 minutes, if lucky, and 5 minutes, if unlucky, to debate this major legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI note especially new Part 6C, \u201COffences relating to chain of responsibility\u201D. It provides that a passenger can be held criminally liable or responsible in terms of the driver breaking the law, if the passenger knew or suspected the law was being broken. I have already mentioned a court case due to come before the court in August, involving a motorcade. I think five people have been charged. Two police officers who were passengers are accused of being parties to the offence. It is very difficult to understand why two police officers, who were passengers, are being prosecuted because it is suspected they knew the law was being broken, yet the Prime Minister, who heads up the highest court in the land, did not know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e21e920a207046efabc22ed508bce976\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e21e920a207046efabc22ed508bce976\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to continue on from where Deborah Coddington left off, and to talk about new Part 6C, \u201COffences relating to chain of responsibility\u201D. Labour members may like to wake up or put down their newspapers, and to flick through the bill. New section 79T, \u201COffence to cause or require driver to breach speed limits, maximum work time, or rest time requirements\u201D, states: \u201CEvery person commits an offence, and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $25,000, who, by act or omission, directly or indirectly causes or requires a driver to\u2014(a) exceed any applicable speed limit if that\u2014(i) person knew, or should have known, that the speed limit would be, or would likely be, exceeded; and (ii) driver is a driver to whom \u2026 applies;\u201D. I could easily slot other words into that provision\u2014such as \u201Cthe Prime Minister \u2026 directly or indirectly causes or requires a driver to\u2014(a) exceed any applicable speed limit if that\u2014(i) Prime Minister knew, or should have known, that the speed limit would be, or would likely be, exceeded;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI simply say that whether it is a young 17-year-old exceeding the speed limit in Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s electorate\u2014because he certainly does not have that issue under control\u2014whether it is a 75-year-old exceeding the speed limit in Ponsonby, or whether it is a Prime Minister exceeding the speed limit over 200 kilometres of road in the South Island, the rules should remain the same. We say that no one in this country\u2014unless the Labour members concede it is a corrupt country\u2014should be above the law. National is asking questions in this Parliament, as people are asking questions in their homes throughout the country, about whether the Prime Minister should be accountable to the law, just like everyone else. I am not saying she is guilty or not guilty, but she should show up in court and give evidence on that matter, just as every other New Zealander would, young or old, and South Islander or North Islander. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENew section 79T, inserted by clause 33A, is specifically about passengers who would encourage, or at least not discourage, \u201Cdirectly or indirectly\u201D a driver to speed. There is shame in the Labour Party camp about the motorcade issue, because the Prime Minister was in a hurry over 10 or 50 or 200 kilometres, I think, of road in the South Island that the motorcade screamed over in order to attend important affairs of State\u2014I have forgotten whom the All Blacks were playing that day! The motorcade was rushing through South Island towns in order to attend important affairs of State. The Prime Minister, we understand, allegedly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022facbce71172a48958d3cd826a89c8979\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: They were playing the Wallabies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f7e6091205490b8968461366fed197\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The All Blacks were playing the Wallabies that day. The Prime Minister encouraged her driver to go over 140 kilometres an hour\u2014that is our understanding of it. This bill addresses that sort of issue, and I hope members on the Government side of the Chamber will take a call in defence of the Prime Minister, to explain to us why she is not giving evidence in court voluntarily. Why is that the case, when this bill highlights that particular matter? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would now like to touch on the issues that Maurice Williamson put forward to the Committee some minutes ago regarding the offence history of taxi-drivers or others who wish to drive people to various destinations around our cities or countryside. I find it appalling, as does Deborah Coddington, that those in the taxi industry who are supposed to be acting as \u201Cgatekeepers\u201D\u2014monitoring drivers\u2014have no idea of the offences taxi-drivers may have committed before they took up the role of taxi-driver. The industry has never asked drivers about the offences they have committed or been convicted of, and does not appear to care whether drivers have committed or been convicted of offences. Certainly, the industry has no record of whether drivers have committed or been convicted of offences. Of course, serious violent or sexual offences should be known within the companies in the taxi industry, simply because no one would like to think that his or her mother, grandmother, daughter, or sister was being taken, at 12 midnight on a Saturday night, around seedy parts of Auckland by such drivers. There should be restrictions on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI appreciate that Supplementary Order Paper 375 in the name of the Hon Pete Hodgson specifically excludes some violent and sexual offences, but other offences are not excluded. All we ask is that there be some transparency in the employment of taxi-drivers around our cities and countryside, so that people are kept safe. People put tremendous trust in the people who drive them around. My understanding of criminal activities, and I have heard this on a number of occasions from police specialists, is that if anyone is ever approached\u2014akiddie, a woman, or anybody\u2014by someone in a motor vehicle who wants that person to get into the car, and who tries to make the person do so, either forcibly or otherwise, the best opportunity for escape is before the person gets in the car. Once people get into a motor vehicle, they are effectively captured and it is very difficult to escape. We willingly get into taxis\u2014we pay to get into taxis\u2014and we are, in effect, caught up in that taxi for as long as the driver would have us in there. If the driver is a criminal, has criminal offences, or has further criminal intent, it is a very dangerous position to be in, indeed. We challenge the Minister on his lax laws and softening of the legislation, whereby we are not able to monitor or gate-keep, as Deborah Coddington said, those taxi-drivers and would-be taxi-drivers who have those sorts of previous convictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E It is interesting to think that taxi-drivers have a 10-year time frame\u2014that somehow it is safe for people who have not offended for 10 years to drive New Zealand women around the streets of Auckland in the dark hours of the early morning. But those people might have been in jail for the whole of those 10 years, in which case they could not have offended over that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa13ef854bc048fea8bcf2d7c620184a\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: That doesn\u2019t stop them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e0a5837161541d8a8637d08cdd2692d\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. Under the current prison system, as we have seen throughout New Zealand, people can still deal drugs while they are in the prison system, they can still be involved in illicit sex while in the prison system, and on it goes. But the reality is that people may not have had a conviction for the last 10 years because they have been inside the slammer. I am interested to know whether Mark Gosche will promote taxi companies driving up to prisons, and saying to prisoners about to be released: \u201CJump aboard. You\u2019re entering society. Here\u2019s your job. Here\u2019s a licence for 6 months. You go and drive the good people of Auckland around Manurewa for the next 6 months. You haven\u2019t had any conviction in the last decade, because we\u2019ve kept you locked up. Granted, you did have a sentence of 30 years and we\u2019ve let you out in 10, but the reality is that you haven\u2019t had an offence in the last 10 years, so you\u2019re a safe person.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe think that is absolutely absurd. There is enough concern in the taxi and cab industry as it is at the moment, with all sorts of people from around the world driving cabs, such as brain surgeons from Russia and dentists from Lithuania. All sorts of people are driving people up and down the wrong streets in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch, and the last thing we need is for criminals and those who carry convictions to drive our people around, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022418400cf4a714804ac54e79feaa1819d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022418400cf4a714804ac54e79feaa1819d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E There is an old saying that \u201Ca little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing\u201D, and the member who has just resumed his seat has illustrated that absolutely 100 percent. I shall explain the taxi-driving conviction clause, for want of a better term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6144230d8746838c5833f4b9e91d63\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Just take it slowly for him. Use small words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022224701978944440a877325ad08a8e5ff\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I will speak slowly and use small words, because I am only a simple sailor myself. This bill puts anybody convicted of these crimes out. Those who are convicted and who have never been a taxi-driver will never get the chance\u2014they are out, totally 100 percent. This bill also puts out those people who are currently driving taxis and who in earlier years have been convicted of these offences\u2014totally out. Those who have been convicted of murder and serious sexual offences are out 100 percent, forever. But the other people are granted a right of appeal. They are, to some degree, granted an element of fairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First does not want those people driving taxis, at all, but we do not believe that we are the people who should be removing justice from those people\u2014neither is Maurice Williamson nor Wayne Mapp. In the first instance, we think that the director is in a much better position to do so, and, in the second instance, it should be the High Court. We think that is a reasonable approach. I caution members, before they embark on a wordy journey, that saying that we are letting murderers, rapists, and goodness knows who, drive our taxis with impunity will send a signal of alarm throughout the country. Those people are definitely excluded, and I am glad to see that National members have suddenly recognised that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI want to speak briefly about courtesy coaches, because this matter is of some concern. I have just spoken to the Minister and the officials on the issue. A number of clubs in this country run courtesy buses, and they charge a fee. Some charge it by donation, but some have a set fee. Some give guidance about what sort of donation a person should make, but others charge a set fee. This bill will make the practice of charging a specific set fee illegal. In many instances, clubs have told me that they will remove their courtesy coaches. But, thankfully, I now know, after having spoken with the Minister and the officials, that these provisions will not come into force for some time, and therefore clubs will have time to make representations to the Government, or whoever, to have their case listened to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EA number of clubs have courtesy coaches, including Napier RSA, Kawerau Cosmopolitan Club, Stokes Valley Cosmopolitan Club, Levin Cosmopolitan Club, Alexandra District Club, Whangarei RSA, Wanganui RSA, Waitomo Club, P\u0113tone Working Men\u2019s Club, Onehunga Workingmen\u2019s Club, Matamata Club, Wairoa Club, Mount Maunganui RSA, Tauranga RSA, Waih\u012B Beach Memorial RSA, the Mt Maunganui Cosmopolitan Club, and last, but not least, the \u014Ctaki Memorial RSA. The member for Otaki said that the \u014Ctaki Memorial RSA was not concerned about this legislation, but it is. I have a letter written by the club to the Minister and copied to me. I am told that 350 of these clubs exist in the country, and as they have 220,000 voting members they are a voice to be listened to. Having spoken to the Minister and the officials, I am encouraged to believe that in the fullness of time their concerns will be identified and amended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI emphasise that many of these clubs tell me that there is no competing taxi service at closing time and during the hours of darkness, and they want the ability to charge a modest fee to drop people off at their homes. One club I spoke with reminded me very strenuously that if Parliament removes this service, then it will be putting more drunks on the road. That sits very uncomfortably with New Zealand First. We want to get drunks off the road, but we do not want to destroy their liberty to go to their clubs, and if a courtesy service can be arranged, managed, and administered in a reasonable manner, with a modest fee attached, then New Zealand First is all for it. But after talking to the Minister and the officials, I understand the complications and I respect their view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab364ce95a4f4fa88e3fe68298b5b5b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab364ce95a4f4fa88e3fe68298b5b5b1\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to take a brief call to respond to my colleague from New Zealand First Peter Brown, to thank him for his quite careful remarks but also, because it is on the record, to correct him on one of his remarks, if I may. The member said this legislation makes charging a fee illegal, and I just want the Committee to be very clear that it already is. That is already the case. This law makes things no worse. What it does do is to provide a regulatory framework by which we can progressively make things better. As society changes, as attitudes towards drink-driving tighten up, as good RSAs and other service organisations around the country seek to take responsibility for their club membership, and as that becomes a more and more expensive thing for them to do, and therefore their desire to charge becomes greater, so too must the regulation keep up. That is why the passage of this legislation matters. We can then have the development of the regulatory framework to keep it abreast of the changing needs of society. I thank the member for his remarks, and correct him on just one of them. This bill does not make anything worse. It does the opposite. It lays the framework to make things progressively more flexible and more responsive to the needs of society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6c1e7432488417d97ff03c2cb8f6eaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6c1e7432488417d97ff03c2cb8f6eaf\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a call to address the Minister of Transport\u2019s amendment on his Supplementary Order Paper to Part 5 of the schedule. It deals with the problem of people who operate a vehicle that creates excessive noise. I welcome the Minister\u2019s cooperation on this, and thank him for it. The amendment proposes to add 10 demerit points to that offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EBefore I became a member of Parliament I was a member of the city council in Tauranga. At the time we had a particular problem in one of our best tourism areas, along the main beach, where there is a lot of high-rise apartment-style accommodation. For many years we have suffered the problem of young people coming to town in their cars and thinking it is fun to go round and round in a circle, making a noise. Sometimes this happens at 2 in the morning, making life miserable for both residents and visitors. In fact, I quite frequently see in the newspaper letters to the editor from people who had come for a nice relaxing holiday but have gone away very disappointed. They write to the newspaper that they will never come back, because their sleep was destroyed because of this nuisance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EEarly on in my term in Parliament United Future saw the opportunity to give assistance to pass the boy racer legislation so that the police have more powers to deal with this issue, particularly where the drivers are doing doughnuts and other dangerous things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5a1c45ed612449fbbfbfebf707e02f5\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Has it made a difference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9435f88adab44fc866320654e6d43aa\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: It has made a difference in regard to that activity, but it has not addressed the issue of those who simply want to make a nuisance of themselves. People can do that regardless of whether they have a modified muffler on their car. They can use just a standard car and simply rev the engine at 2 o\u2019clock in the morning and they will wake people up. They can use their car stereo and be a nuisance. When I spoke to police in the area about what suggestions they might have to deal with it, they said they wanted to be able to take the keys off the drivers, right there on the spot, so that they could immobilise the vehicle for the evening\u2014the drivers could come back the next day and get the keys\u2014and that would be the end of the problem for that night. That would soon send a message to those causing the disturbance that it will not be tolerated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, it seems that step is a little bit too draconian in some people\u2019s minds, so we have arrived at the compromise of putting on demerit points. I think that is a reasonable compromise. We will have to monitor how it goes over the next year, but at least it is better than simply issuing tickets to those young people, because they seem to take no regard of them, at all. In fact, some of them have a glovebox full of tickets. They do not pay them, or else they go home and somebody else digs deep into his or her pocket and pays for those tickets, which I cannot really understand. The effect is that those young people have disregard for the law. I hope this amendment to add 10 demerit points will send a very clear signal to those young people. We love young people. We think that stage of life is a great time. Sometimes young people do crazy things and sometimes they do not have regard for other people around them. We do not want to be too severe, but we do want to send a message that that sort of behaviour will not be tolerated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003ENot only is it affecting the residents of the area; it is also hurting the economy, because great investments have been made in providing facilities for visitors. We value tourism in New Zealand and we have increasing numbers of tourists every year. It is not a problem just in the Mount Maunganui and Tauranga area; other very popular tourism sites around the country are at risk from that kind of behaviour. I am sure that visitors from overseas go away wondering why on earth we tolerate that behaviour. So I welcome this amendment. Hopefully, with the addition of 10 demerit points, if people are caught once, twice, or three times, they will realise they are very close to having their licence taken off them, and they will find some other useful activity in which to engage in the wee hours of the morning, particularly at the weekends, which is when this kind of activity occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOf course, the problem will be addressed only if the police are adequately resourced so that they can go out at night and catch those engaging in this activity. We certainly hope that, as this new law comes into force, the police will take the initiative to undertake some campaigns during weekends, so that the message is sent very clearly, early on in the piece, to young people that they cannot continue that activity and drive everybody nuts. I hope the people of Tauranga and Mount Maunganui will finally get some relief and be able to have a good night\u2019s sleep. One of the most important things we can have in life is a good night\u2019s sleep, and I hope that will be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00222d98646c2f8f4a1a938d746cb6b809ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d98646c2f8f4a1a938d746cb6b809ca\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I have proposed two amendments to Part 2 that I would like to explain to the Committee in detail, to enable members of the other political parties, including the Minister in the chair, the Hon Pete Hodgson, to consider them. I look forward to the Minister\u2019s comments\u2014hopefully they will be positive. I learnt from the Hon Harry Duynhoven that in relation to individuals who teach learner-drivers for monetary consideration, the offence of not having the \u201CI\u201D endorsement was previously omitted from legislation. Apparently that offence has been reinstated in this Land Transport Amendment Bill\u2014 and I welcome that\u2014to make it clear that any individual who teaches learner-drivers for monetary consideration should obtain an \u201CI\u201D endorsement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut what this legislation has not taken into consideration is how we can inform the public that people who want to learn to drive properly from a licensed driving instructor are getting that service. The Minister in his letter to me said that they would advertise in newspapers, etc. I think that a very smart move would be for an instructor who is properly authorised to do it for commercial purposes to display the \u201CI\u201D endorsement on the vehicle in which he or she teaches students, just like taxis do. Nowadays when we get into a taxi we know the name of the taxi-driver, which enables individuals to lodge a complaint or make inquiries. It also reminds the driving instructors that they have to have the \u201CI\u201D endorsement in order to carry out those commercial activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EMy second amendment proposes that the driving instructors who can obtain the \u201CI\u201D endorsement should be New Zealand citizens or holders of a permanent residence visa. That is to avoid visitors, or people holding student permits, teaching others for commercial gain. I do not believe that teaching others to drive on New Zealand roads can be entrusted to persons who have spent a short time in New Zealand. Even though they may be experienced drivers in their home country, we have our own rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIf we look at the United States or China, we have the right-hand versus the left-hand driving habit. Also, New Zealand has a unique set of road conditions, particularly on the open road. So I believe that the \u201CI\u201D endorsement driving permit should be limited to New Zealand citizens, or people who are permanent resident visa-holders. I hope the Minister can take a call to indicate whether he is in favour of those changes to enhance road safety for New Zealand society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI continue to bring up the theme of this legislation being about enhancing the enforcement regime. Just now my colleague Phil Heatley, who is a very robust debater, raised a very good question. He asked whether the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Helen Clark, should be seen to be above the law. This legislation should send a stern signal and say that no matter who, if legislation to enhance road safety in New Zealand is infringed, that person should front up to the court to answer or defend the charges, otherwise we are making a mockery of having one standard of rule for all. It would be one standard for the Prime Minister and one standard for the rest of New Zealand\u2019s citizens, which I do not think would be a desirable outcome of this legislation. The enforcement provision is one that National members want to see being properly enforced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2518075cbc14dc2bfeefbeeec8471a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2518075cbc14dc2bfeefbeeec8471a5\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to talk on Supplementary Order Paper 375 and to refer members to the commentary in the bill itself. There was concern about whether there ought to be some form of\u2014and I noted this specifically\u2014appeal provision for those who had been convicted of offences prior to the enactment of the legislation. The concern did not exist in relation to those who would be convicted post the enactment of the legislation. That relevant part of the commentary concludes: \u201CAll members of the committee recommend that further consideration be given to this matter.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe first point to note is that it was intended to be an appeal. That normally involves, or envisages, going to either the District Court or the High Court\u2014that kind of gravity, if you will. So even the process itself is intended quite specifically to be something of a deterrent. What does the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper have instead? All a person has to do is apply to the Director of Land Transport, which is a relatively simple, straightforward procedure, thus having a low threshold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI note that it relates to convictions more than 10 years prior to the enactment of the legislation\u2014at least that point was correctly noted\u2014and, secondly, the person must have no convictions for offences punishable within the last 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ELet us say this legislation will come into effect on 1 July this year. Essentially it applies to anyone with offences prior to July 1995. As has been noted, those offences do not include murder or serious sexual offences, but they do include some very serious offences indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbf2c744a2974b199767892e7133fbe8\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: What are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a3c62280a34a3796a0971ff7ef59fc\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: They include aggravated assault and a whole series of very serious offences. That is our particular concern. They include attempt to murder, conspiracy to murder, and\u2014which is probably much more common\u2014causing grievous bodily harm by injury, and aggravated wounding and injury; in other words, the classic \u201CGBH\u201D, as it was known. Those are offences for which a person invariably gets a sentence of imprisonment. So they are very serious, yet we are saying that such a person ought to be able to go through a relatively straightforward procedure, which is to apply to the Director of Land Transport and get a passenger endorsement to drive a taxi or, indeed, a bus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe say that there are two problems. The first problem is that the process is to go to the director, as opposed to, for instance, applying to the District Court as being an appropriate venue. That would have been a much higher threshold, and the rules could have been more properly prescribed. That is the first flaw. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe second flaw is the 10-year period. It will hardly escape the notice of members that the clean-slate legislation also has a 10-year period. Surely we would want to draw a pretty significant distinction between wiping genuinely minor offences where there have been no further offences committed in the last 10 years, and these kinds of offences. A 20-year period might have been more appropriate because, as Mr Heatley quite rightly pointed out, in reality a large chunk of that 10 years will have been inside a jail. I am absolutely sure that the public should not have to be driven in a taxi by someone who has spent maybe 7 of the last 10 years\u2014say, 1995 to 2002\u2014in jail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere are two flaws. The first flaw is the application to the director, and the second flaw is the 10 years. I believe that the Government has taken excessive licence from the views of the select committee. Yes, there was a problem, and I was one of those who said the Government needed to look at this issue. I assumed, I must say, that the Government would be thinking of an appeal to a court in order to deliberately raise the threshold so it would not be easy to get. What has been done instead is that people apply to the director and then, if the director turns the case down, there can be an appeal to the High Court. There is a double threshold. It is quite clearly intended that the first level of application will be lower and easier. Do we truly want to say to people who have committed serious offences and who may have been in jail for 7 years that they can simply apply to the director to get a passenger endorsement? Is that what the Government is seriously saying to the public of New Zealand? Apparently, it is. It says people should just write a brief letter\u2014that will do, and they will get their passenger endorsement. It does not matter whether they have thrown acid or been convicted of grievous bodily harm and things of that nature. So we cannot support this Supplementary Order Paper in the way it has been drafted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIf there had been a different threshold\u2014say, an application to the District Court with full evidence given either way\u2014that might have been quite a different situation. It would have been clear on the face of it that the threshold\u2014[Interruption] No, the first application is to the director. Only if the director refuses does one then go to the High Court. It is amazing, is it not? A member of the select committee, who is a lawyer, has apparently not even read the Supplementary Order Paper, because she thinks the way to do this is to go to the High Court. I say to that member that the High Court issue arises only if the director turns the case down. I say to the Minister that I do not believe that this Supplementary Order Paper meets the kinds of circumstances that members on this side of the Chamber envisaged by the specific reference to the concept of appeal. An application to the director is simply not an appeal. It is just that\u2014an application. That is the first issue I wanted to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe second issue is one that was dealt with, but I bring it up again. It is the rules about vehicles between 300 watts and 600 watts, which are mentioned in the commentary, and in clauses 4 and 68A. We say that the Government has got this one wrong. Frankly, we believe that there should be general approval for vehicles\u2014basically, bicycles\u2014up to 600 watts, and then nothing further. I believe that this issue will have to be revisited by the Government. Part 2 is very long. It runs from page 7 of the bill to page 99. Virtually the entire bill is contained within that part, and I hope that we will have proper opportunities to consider all the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI suggest to the Minister that the provisions in relation to the definition of \u201Cvehicle\u201D contained in clause 4, and the further provisions, clause 68A on that very question, are flawed. There is an absolute exemption for vehicles under 300 watts. That is fair enough. Then the director has discretion for vehicles between 300 and 600 watts, and that is inadequate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002202197566ae1a4b4f8f815fc31597a513\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202197566ae1a4b4f8f815fc31597a513\u0022\u003ELIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u002280aaab7f533e49ccae4dff5011a40173\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280aaab7f533e49ccae4dff5011a40173\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for giving me that call, because I would really like the Minister, Pete Hodgson, to take a call to explain this Supplementary Order Paper to us. There is another flaw in addition to the two that Wayne Mapp pointed out. I too am unhappy with the Director of Land Transport having the sole power to reinstate licences to those who already have convictions. I think it should go to the High Court first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ESecondly, I would really like the Minister to explain something about reinstatement. A licence cannot be reinstated if people have been convicted of a serious offence under section 29A(2)(a) or (b)\u2014inserted by clause 13\u2014which relate to murder or a sexual crime punishable by 7 years\u2019 or more imprisonment. However, if we look at section 29A(2)(d), inserted by clause 13, we see that it states: \u201Can offence committed outside New Zealand that, if committed in New Zealand, would constitute an offence specified in paragraphs (a) to (c).\u201D But when I look at the Supplementary Order Paper, it does not seem to me\u2014and I am not a lawyer\u2014to include paragraph (d). Do we have an anomaly whereby if a person is convicted of murder or a serious sexual crime outside New Zealand, he or she is not subject to the same barrier as those who were convicted of it inside New Zealand? In other words, could a person slip through because it was a historical conviction, and, therefore, the person would not have to apply, or is it the other way round? I do not know. That is why I am asking the Minister to explain. For me, committing a serious sexual offence with, say, a little girl in Thailand is just as bad as committing it with a little girl in New Zealand, and it should be treated exactly the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI know\u2014and we discussed it at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014that with a lot of immigrants these days, especially refugees, it is very difficult to find out exactly what criminal history they have, or whether they have one, because we are dealing with different jurisdictions. The committee talked about that. But, where possible, I think the same laws should apply. If we are bringing in a law that totally prohibits\u2014no ifs, no buts, no right of appeal\u2014New Zealand people convicted under New Zealand legislation of murder or a serious sexual crime from going into the taxi industry or from getting back into it, then I think we should apply that same legislation to those who have been convicted of comparable crimes in another jurisdiction, when we know and can find out about those crimes. Let us face it: if people have been convicted of such crimes, whether or not they are taxi-drivers, they should not be in this country. It is a privilege to live in New Zealand, not a right\u2014but that is another debate, and not one that relates to this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister to take a call to explain this Supplementary Order Paper. It is very important. The select committee members worked together very hard to arrive at a situation we could all be happy with. We will probably have a situation whereby people can go to the Director of Land Transport, and if they are turned down they can go to the High Court, but let us at least have a situation whereby the same rules apply to everyone, whether he or she was convicted in New Zealand or overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed2e57fb331647e6be51ee399ccc3850\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed2e57fb331647e6be51ee399ccc3850\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00225e2bd0e7ae0e4861a12981a548c6fd27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e2bd0e7ae0e4861a12981a548c6fd27\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for giving me the chance to raise another matter about Part 2. It relates to clause 15 and the issue of work time and logbooks. I was approached by a very nice couple in Tauranga\u2014I am sorry to raise matters relating to Tauranga all the time, but somebody in this Chamber has to raise the concerns of the good people of Tauranga. That nice couple operate a dial-a-driver business as a part-time operation. The husband works full time and the wife works part time, because they see their priority as making a living that is sufficient to enable them to raise their family. They want the mother to be able to stay home in the afternoons so that she is there when the children come home from school, and I think that that is laudable. They are concerned that this legislation will affect their business. I appreciate the discussion I have been able to have with the Minister and the officials to see whether the situation could be resolved, but they have informed me that it is not possible in this legislation to find a way to exempt that couple. I have been informed that there is some hope, because this legislation will not take effect for a year. There will be another process of submissions before the rules come into force, so we may be able to find a way forward for the couple in that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIn this debate I simply want to put on record what the couple\u2019s concern is, so that we will remember that we need to work through this issue in the year ahead. The couple work, as I said, but they come home in the evening. The husband goes to bed. It is probably best for me to read from his submission to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, so that the issue will be nice and clear for everybody. The husband wrote that he arrives home shortly after 5 o\u2019clock, eats his dinner, and then goes to bed for approximately 4 to 5 hours of rest. He is then ready for when, at around 10.30, the couple start to get calls from people who wish to be driven home because they have had a little too much to drink. Since the overarching concern of this bill is safety, I think it is important that we keep services like that operating so that people can find a way to get home if they have had too much to drink. So at around 10.30 the phone may go, and the couple may begin to respond to some calls. They do not take calls after midnight during the week, but on Saturday night\u2014their busiest night\u2014they go through until 3 in the morning. They are taking care not to overwork and make themselves too tired. They do not drive long distances when they pick people up and drive them home. They believe that they are operating in a very safe manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe problem is that the legislation, in establishing the 13-hour period in which a person can continue to work, will affect them. It will not take into account the fact that although the husband works during the day, he comes home and has several hours of very good sleep, is probably as alert as anybody else, and can provide the service. He wrote: \u201CWe understand the concerns regarding driver fatigue, and accidents that are related to this, but feel that dial-a-driver services in smaller centres do not pose a threat to our clients in this regard.\u201D I agree with him. Just how many accidents can be attributed to safe drivers who are getting drunk clients home? There is no evidence that there is a problem. I think that someone who has worked driving for 13 hours will be far more tired than that gentleman, who has worked an 8-hour day, gone home, had a sleep, and then gone out to work again for a few hours in the night, accompanied by his wife and sometimes, apparently, by the children, who the couple say enjoy being involved as a family in the business. I think we should applaud a family that is committed to working together like that in order to provide an income so that they can meet their needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe husband wrote: \u201CIt seems ridiculous to me that a man can drive a truck for 11 hours out of 13 in a day, and then go out and drive as many hours as he likes in his private vehicle, and there isn\u2019t a law against that.\u201D His comment makes pretty good sense, really. He also makes the point that it is not fair to judge all people as needing the same amount of sleep each night. He wrote that many people exist quite happily on only 5 to 6 hours of sleep in a 24-hour period, and I am sure that all members in this Chamber would have to agree with him. The husband wrote: \u201CBoth myself and my wife are people who do not need 8 hours every night and manage very well on the regime that we have put in place. We do not drive great distances here in Tauranga. Probably the furthest area we have transported clients home to is Te Puke, which is only 26 kilometres from central Tauranga. Our driving is start-stop stuff along streets we have got to know very well, and we are always careful to keep to the speed limits and take no risks.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI want to put on the record of Parliament that there is something that has not been resolved through this legislation. I support the legislation for trying to improve safety, but we do not want to exclude the small dial-a-driver businesses, which I believe exist not only in Tauranga but in other areas, from operating. It is in the best interests of the safety of all of us that people who have been drinking can find a way to get home. Sometimes taxi companies will provide that service, but when taxis are very busy they prefer to take one person home and not to tie up two drivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00226d68e111d5a1423a8cd9d2490c3729b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d68e111d5a1423a8cd9d2490c3729b1\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak about the two amendments put forward by National Party members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe first is in the name of Pansy Wong. It seems to me to make quite a degree of sense. She states: \u201CDriving instructors who teach driving for hire or reward must display the I endorsement in a visible manner during driving courses.\u201D I would have thought that was a pretty sound sort of requirement in legislation\u2014that a driving instructor displays the endorsement in a visible manner so that when one gets in the instructor\u2019s car one knows that he or she is the genuine article, so to speak. The amendment goes on: \u201CDriving instructors who teach driving for hire or reward with an I endorsement must be New Zealand citizens or permanent residents.\u201D I cannot read her last words, to be honest, but that requirement, too, makes sense. Should our driving instructors not have learnt their trade in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b274cfaae69471683e8fc4d919b68f0\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: It seems sensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbae7ec549464ba983ba9ee8ddbd3ec8\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It seems quite sensible to me, and it seems to be an oversight that the legislation does not recognise this sort of thing. So I think I can say that New Zealand First will support Pansy Wong\u2019s amendment. We believe that driving instructors should advertise who they are, how they are qualified, etc., and we believe that they should have learnt their trade in this country and be fully au fait with our rules. Some of our rules are slightly different from rules elsewhere. One example is the right-hand turn rule, which came in 20-odd years ago; I am sure it was devised by panel beaters! I thought the Hon Mark Gosche was going to look at that rule a year or so back, with a view to amending it, because in some areas it causes a lot of confusion. I think it is important that driving instructors are permanent residents or New Zealand citizens. We will support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Hon Maurice Williamson has put forward another amendment that we believe has quite a lot of merit. Its purpose is to combine, in relation to appendix 2 of the commentary, vehicles with a power output of less than 300 watts and vehicles with a power output of between 300 watts and 600 watts. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee has just looked at this matter pretty carefully. I thought we did a pretty darn good job on it, but Maurice Williamson made some valid points a few moments ago. He pointed out that a vehicle with a power output of between 300 watts and 600 watts may be determined by the director not to be a motor vehicle. That seems to add, possibly, an awful lot of unnecessary bureaucracy on to the director. There is a little picture of the type of vehicle; it helps us on this side of the House immensely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5f151ad31d40b48f6f49a3e984027a\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f837af9e22734ed68d89b2bde84df348\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member laughs, but it does make things very clear. They are very straightforward-looking vehicles, and all the other requirements\u2014driver requirements and vehicle requirements\u2014have to be adhered to. So we think the Hon Maurice Williamson on this occasion has got it spot on, and we will support the amendment in his name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOn the issue just raised by Larry Baldock, I wonder whether he is actually serious. Is the member suggesting that it will be compulsory for a fellow to go home after doing his 8 hours and have a 5-hour sleep? For all we know, he could go and play football. We need to have some rules and regulations governing driving on a commercial basis for income. I think the bill pretty well has it right. I accept the anomaly\u2014I myself am aware of it\u2014that a truck-driver after driving a truck for 11 hours can then go and drive his car from here to the other end of New Zealand if he so wishes. That is a loophole that we may have to look at in the fullness of time. But when it comes to commercial driving, it is only right and proper to have some restrictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI think this bill goes a long way towards addressing some of the concerns, and certainly the concerns around logbooks. Some drivers and company managers have told me how drivers have been fined excessively for very minor logbook offences. This bill takes care of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Pansy Wong to Part 2 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause 10A:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E10A\tNew Section 26A inserted\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E26A\tDisplay\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E(1)\tdriving instructors who teach driving for hire or reward must display \u201CI\u201D endorsement in a visible manner during driving courses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E(2)\tdriving instructors who teach driving for hire or reward with \u201CI\u201D endorsement must be New Zealand citizens or permanent resident visa holders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e8d752a7604146a8ba1ba10096b1e6a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000313\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 68A(2) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000314\u0022\u003Eto omit from subsection (2) of section 168A the expression \u201C300 W\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C600 W\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002215a317842652429ba73d7cbbb8665f66\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000315\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 375 in the name of the Hon Pete Hodgson to Part 2, and the following amendments in his name to clause 85, be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000316\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (3) the words \u201CSections 4(a) to (d), 5(6)(a), 7, 8(3) and (4), 9, 12 to 14, 18 to 23, 24(2)(a) to (c), 26(3), 29, 32 to 39,\u201D and substitute the words \u201CSections 4 to 46\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000317\u0022\u003Eto omit subclause (4).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022985f47ca5eec4de9b419a1e5f54acb20\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000318\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022098d1129a5cd4128951316532102dc24\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000320\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 375 in the name of the Hon Pete Hodgson to the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276820c65dbf14a54886d6738995a43ac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and schedule as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d69ad3e6208144fe86349407e7c39d3d\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a512fc54d97f422787dd574f87633e4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a512fc54d97f422787dd574f87633e4c\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to clauses 1 and 2, the title and commencement. The interesting part here is the commencement date itself. Under clause 2, there is a complex formula of which provisions come into force at which times. For instance, the legislation as a whole comes into force on 16 January 2006, which is basically 6 months from now, but certain parts of it can come into force on an earlier date. I ask the Minister of Transport why the special rules that we have now introduced relating to taxi-drivers, which are covered by clause 13, have to wait until 16 January to come into force, instead of coming into force at the time of the royal assent. That was the original proposal, but now it seems, as I read this, that clause 13 will come into force on 16 January 2006. It may be that it is intended, by Order in Council, to bring that portion into force at a different date, possibly an earlier date. I would like some assurance from the Minister that that would be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EFor the moment, he has effectively created a loophole whereby those who have been convicted of serious offences would be able to continue driving over the following 6 months. I would have thought that on legislation of this nature, when the rules on this kind of issue are being changed, particularly with the very loose appeal procedure that is now being approved\u2014well, it is actually not an appeal procedure, really; one just has to apply to the director and that will suffice\u2014the public are exposed to unnecessary risk. This Parliament, based on the submissions that its committee received, wants to give a very clear signal that passengers in taxis, in particular, deserve special protection. Parliament has established what is, overall, apart from that review procedure, a rigorous test, an exemplary test even, whereby persons guilty of various serious offences ought not to be able to drive taxis. But, as I read the legislation, that does not come into force for another 6 months, and I have to ask why we would do that. Why would we allow someone convicted, literally, of murder, or of various serious sexual offences, to continue to drive over the next 6 months and, potentially, place people at risk? As a Parliament, we are saying that that is not possible, and that those people ought to have their licences removed. Presumably that means now, not 6 months from now. So I want some form of explanation as to why\u2014and maybe I have misread clause 2, because it is relatively complexly constructed\u2014that is not the case. I would be pleased if the Minister could give a direction on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOther parts of the legislation, I understand, have implementation processes involved in them, and new rules\u2014logbook requirements, etc.\u2014have to be developed. One would expect that to take some period of time. After all, it is not simply a question of people changing patterns; they also have to complete new logbooks, essentially, to comply with the legislation for the future, and, clearly, people need time to produce those logbooks, and so on and so forth. This is an area in which Parliament says, upon balancing public safety and the interests of the drivers, public safety takes priority. I believe if we are saying that as strictly and as seriously as we are\u2014and it is a substantial test; I recognise that\u2014then that part of the legislation ought to come into force at the time of the royal assent, or as soon as possible thereafter. I would appreciate an explanation from the Minister on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 375 in the name of the Hon Pete Hodgson to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022816cf6387bbf4b018d2b7dfbd477bb34\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and clause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000327\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000328\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226026b6b9ced946e3826c687728bb6140\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022408370b8b4284d1ba26db993be525362\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022408370b8b4284d1ba26db993be525362\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Land Transport Amendment Bill be now read a third time. I thank members for their work on this bill. The examination it has been given, and the amendments made, have improved it considerably. The bill is a result of a series of reviews, and it is intended to improve the safety and security of road users in line with the New Zealand Transport Strategy. It also remedies a number of problems in the legislative framework regarding the responsibilities of road users, traffic offences and penalties, and the driver-licensing system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIts main features and significant amendments include a requirement to surrender superseded driver licences, in response to police and hospitality industry concerns that superseded learner and restricted licences are being used to assist minors to gain entry to licensed establishments. This bill contains amendments to transport operator licensing in line with the 2001 review. They aim to simplify and clarify licensing requirements and to reduce compliance costs for transport operators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes measures to improve commercial driver standards through the Ministry Rules Programme. Those include enhanced accountability for taxi organisations, and strengthened offence and penalty provisions. It now also requires taxi service licence holders and drivers to provide company details in Braille inside taxis. That step should enhance the security of visually impaired taxi passengers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe bill prohibits persons convicted of serious violent and sexual offences from being a passenger service driver. That will address the risk to public safety from having those with such convictions in a one-on-one situation with passengers. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee extended the scope of the provision in order to cover offences committed prior to the commencement of the bill, which means that the provision will apply to existing passenger service drivers with convictions for serious violent and sexual offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe House has further amended the provision, following concerns raised by the select committee, to allow some individuals convicted of certain listed offences\u2014but not murder or sexual offences\u2014to apply to have their passenger endorsements reinstated, in extremely limited circumstances. The circumstances apply when the conviction is more than 10 years old and when the applicant has not been convicted of an imprisonable offence in the previous 10 years. I consider that that approach appropriately balances the ability of those posing no risk to the safety of the public to maintain their passenger endorsements, with the legitimate personal security concerns of the users of passenger services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe bill clarifies that home community support workers, who occasionally give rides to their clients\u2014to help them with shopping, for example\u2014do not require passenger service licences. It was originally intended that that matter be clarified via the forthcoming operator licensing rule. However, I accept that considerable uncertainty has arisen in the home-based care sector as to whether licensing is required, and so that issue should be rectified quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIn addition, operators of courtesy coach services have raised concerns that the bill will affect the service they provide. I can assure them that the bill does not require courtesy services to be licensed where the payment of a fare is not a condition of carriage. However, there will be an opportunity in the upcoming months for organisations to comment further on the passenger licensing provisions, during the development of the operator licensing rule. I will ensure that those organisations that have contacted me on that matter are kept informed about the submission process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EWork is also under way to extend the current exemption to passenger service licensing for car-pooling arrangements, to include initiatives such as the Rideshare programme currently being developed in Auckland, along with other social, informal, or not-for-profit activities. It has never been this Government\u2019s intention to capture those arrangements in the licensing regime; clarification would therefore be useful, and I will seek to implement those exemptions by regulation as soon as practicable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EFollowing consultation and a review, the bill retains prescribed driving-hours and logbooks for commercial drivers. The select committee has placed key limits on the allowable hours in the primary Act. That gives due emphasis to the importance of managing fatigue within the transport industry. The bill also simplifies the driving-hours and logbook system, and introduces a new, simpler definition of work time. Additionally, it introduces a new \u201Cchain of responsibility\u201D offence to ensure that employers and other industry participants are held accountable if they knowingly allow or cause driving-hour breaches. It also covers offences for load security, overloading, and speeding, where commercial vehicles are involved. Those are positive measures, which, by making the likes of consignees and consignors equally liable where they have knowingly contributed to an offence, will help improve the safety of commercial transport services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe bill contains a number of common-sense amendments to remedy several defects in transport legislation. Those include empowering police to serve a notice of licence suspension at the roadside on a driver with more than 100 demerit points, where the director has been unable to serve the notice. They also include ensuring that driving offences involving injury or death apply both on and off a road, and updating the definition of \u201Cmotor vehicle\u201D to exclude vehicles powered by very small motors. The maximum power output for low-powered vehicles has been increased to 300 watts or higher for specified classes of vehicles, such as electrical bicycles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EDuring the debate on this bill the United Future party raised the issue of excessively noisy vehicles. As a consequence of discussions with them and with the Greens, the bill now strengthens the sanctions and tools available to enforcement officers to deal with excessively noisy vehicles. It does that by assigning 10 demerit points for vehicle noise offences, and by increasing fines. This bill contains a large number of positive changes to the legislative framework underpinning land transport safety. Not only will it improve safety and help save lives but it will also reduce unnecessary complication and business compliance costs. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002227fbf52d566747abaa18a1d7f37e2590\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227fbf52d566747abaa18a1d7f37e2590\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E National supports this bill. We recognise, as the Minister has indicated, that much of it covers improvements to the existing legislation and enhancing it. I note, in this third reading, that the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee members worked very constructively together to enhance the legislation. The rules in many parts are detailed, technical, and naturally intended to attract the interests of only those people who are most directly affected in the transport industry. So I note the rules around logbooks, etc., and the details around the limited licence powers of traffic officers, and the like. Some specific things did not get covered in earlier debates, including some of the rules around goods and services vehicles\u2014in particular, the sizes of those vehicles. That area of the law has actually been made somewhat more liberal, and we recognise the value of that in terms of the practicality of operating modern New Zealand businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere are, of course, some issues that the select committee and, indeed, the preceding debate have focused on\u2014and quite properly so. The changes are substantial, and rest particularly around the P1 endorsement\u2014that is, the endorsement for taxi-drivers, bus drivers, drivers of courtesy vehicles\u2014and electric bikes. I want to turn to the issue of that P1 endorsement for taxi-drivers. The select committee, in some respects largely on its own initiative\u2014and I note at this point the contribution of Deborah Coddington; it was she who really raised the issue at the select committee and the committee, to a person, saw the importance of the issue she was raising\u2014recommended a major change to the legislation, so that people in the industry at present who have very serious convictions ought not to be allowed to hold a P1 endorsement. We felt that passengers in taxis are in a uniquely vulnerable situation, particularly late at night, and particularly if they are young women. So the people who are carrying those people ought to satisfy rigorous tests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn essence, we have proposed that anyone who is henceforth convicted\u2014or, more particularly, who has previously been convicted\u2014of murder, of a serious sexual offence, or of other serious offences such as aggravated assault and the like should not be able to hold a licence. On further consideration, we did consider that there should be a very limited appeal. The National Party believes that the Government has gone too far, in essentially giving discretion on appeals to the director rather than to the court system. If the proposals put forward by the Minister had referred, for instance, to a District Court considering that issue, they would have almost certainly received our support, but we consider that giving that power to the director has softened the requirement excessively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe courtesy vehicle issue vexed the select committee. We have come up with some minor modifications to the existing rules. I am not sure that we ever got that one completely right, and no doubt it is something that could be revisited further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to comment on the issue of electric bikes and then, by extension, on some of the issues that I think this country will have to look at in the future. We believe that the number of electric bikes being used is likely to increase, for a whole variety of reasons. More cycleways are being constructed and, by and large, they have support within local communities. Almost certainly that will lead to a greater increase in the numbers of bicycles that have electrical assistance to propel them, and we believe that a more liberal approach is necessary. It is quite common now for those bikes to have motors of 600 watts. That will become increasingly common in the industry, and we believed a blanket exemption up to that level was appropriate. The Minister has said that the director should have the discretion to rule on exemptions for vehicles with motors of between 300 watts and 600 watts, and maybe that is something that will need to be revisited further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to close on this particular point: I believe that, as a nation, we will have to consider more seriously the issue of vehicle emissions. I think that there is a real question as to whether we are taking a rigorous enough approach to that issue. Certainly, much of the New Zealand passenger fleet consists of imported vehicles, many of which were quite old at the time of being first imported. I wonder whether we will have to look more rigorously at putting an age limitation on the first importation of those vehicles, plus take a more rigorous approach to the emission levels of those vehicles, generally. In a whole variety of ways, this country is concerned about global warming. There are different approaches to that issue. The Government\u2019s approach is very much\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e33289e393084677965d97b0753df5bd\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285a905d324e14dffbf9078f7087fb1fe\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014taxes, as my colleague has quite rightly put it. National is opposed to a carbon tax but, nevertheless, we recognise the seriousness of the issue. I note that last week President Bush also noted the significance of the issue. I believe that in due course the United States will become a party, not to Kyoto, but to a subsequent convention. Rather than taking a punitive tax approach\u2014which is always the fond approach of the socialist; the European way, if you will\u2014the approach of the United States is to provide incentives for new technology. I guess it is an issue of whether one thinks an incentive or a tax is more appropriate. We know what the Government thinks. It thinks the tax, or the punitive approach\u2014the cost-plus mentality approach\u2014is the right way. I believe that in time that will be shown to be an unwise decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I think there is concern that we should have a more efficient vehicle fleet. I have only to think of the work done by the Toyota and Honda motor companies on their hybrid technology vehicles. I imagine that over the next few years the United States will be incentivising that kind of technology. President Bush has already indicated that is the pathway the United States will take, and I believe that a future agreement, post-Kyoto, will have a much greater focus on incentives rather than on punitive taxes. The outcome, of course, is intended to be the same: to reduce the effect of global warming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280ca98bfe6224185ac77f025a1f6d4c9\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: This is about land transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2866be70360470088866f36de129f6e\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: I say this to the Minister, who has responsibilities in this area. I believe that when this issue is reviewed further\u2014and it will have to be\u2014the pathway of Kyoto and of taxation will be seen, essentially, as a flawed approach. Nevertheless, the matter will have to be dealt with, and I believe that the way of the future will be technological innovation. That will be driven more through an incentivisation process than through punitive taxes. I believe that one of the things we will have to look at is the age of our vehicle fleet and the rules around the importation of motor vehicles, particularly their age at the time of their first importation. It is noteworthy that Toyota and Honda have said that importing vehicles that are already 8 or 10 years old means that New Zealand misses out fundamentally on newer technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIf that issue was looked at more thoroughly by the Government and Crown agencies\u2014the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, for instance, should be looking at that issue more intensively\u2014we may come up with a more rational approach to that particular issue. That is not to suggest that we would not have second-hand imports; clearly, they are a feature of New Zealand\u2019s way of life, if you will, and we do get substantial technological advantages as a consequence of importing them. But that does not mean to say that the alternative is essentially to have open slather on importing any vehicle, no matter how old it is. So I suggest that as we look at the issues that this bill raises, we see we will have to think more creatively and more imaginatively in order to deal with the issue of global warming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u002207a2e439c3574b3b8e1784aaeaa202e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207a2e439c3574b3b8e1784aaeaa202e7\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to see this legislation finally reach this point. It is good law. It deals with some very serious issues. It makes sure that our punishments for those who drink and drive, and those who speed at the upper end of the scale, are much harsher so that we actually deal with the repeat offenders, and with those who are going extremely fast, in a less tolerant way than the law currently allows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWe also deal with some quite small but significant issues, in the bill. Some are very important, particularly to those who drive for a living. We are allowing people who are currently disqualified from driving, say, buses to have the chance to go for a limited licence if they have not offended while driving their buses. We know that there is a shortage of truck drivers and bus drivers in this country, so some of these minor changes actually help people. People might not be able to continue to drive a passenger service vehicle, but they can drive a truck. At the moment they are prohibited from doing both, and that does not make sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EVisually impaired and blind people, who are great users of taxis, for obvious reasons, will benefit from a small but significant change. The bill will put Braille signs in taxis for their safety, so they can identify who has been driving them, which company, etc. Surprisingly, the National Party opposed the provision that has just made the law on taxi signage safer, simpler, and better. The National Party\u2019s position is to make it harder and much more expensive. National members say that the taxi companies should go through the courts and use competition law to do that, which shows people that they have no understanding of small businesses and the costs that apply to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EChanges to liability through the chain of responsibility say that one cannot design a contract that actually makes the driver break the law. One cannot overload, and do the things that are being done out there at the moment, and get away with it. The Road Transport Forum asked for that change, and the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and the Government are very pleased to be able to deliver it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWe have also taken some regulation away from the smaller end of the industry\u2014the courier driver type of operations. The law is much simpler now, with lower compliance costs. It is a sensible law, and I support it fully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002292630993f4494b599b756cb71448f3bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292630993f4494b599b756cb71448f3bd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Let me first apologise to those people who have just tuned into their radio at 2 o\u2019clock\u2014expecting Parliament to be sitting\u2014to hear the Rt Hon Winston Peters take on the Government again and embarrass it even further. Unfortunately that will not happen. The Government has given up the ghost. It has put the House into urgency. So the Rt Hon Winston Peters has been denied his opportunity to ask this Government some penetrating questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe are debating the third reading of the Land Transport Amendment Bill, and it is a bill that New Zealand First supports. That is not to say that the Government\u2019s bill is 100 percent correct, but it is pretty close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e20ed6b0644e92b979d867b5a4ce6e\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: 99 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1fd0bd79b5e422daf061a153bdb87c1\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe not 99 percent, but pretty close. There are three aspects of this bill that I would like to touch on. The first is the simplified logbook regime for commercial truck-drivers. It is long awaited and long overdue. Truck-drivers are not the brains of New Zealand, and in saying that I am not putting them down. They are average guys who drive trucks for a living and by and large drive them very, very well. But I have seen some entries in logbooks that have allegedly resulted in drivers being charged with a crime. The one that comes to mind is a truck-driver who signed off at Wanganui one evening and said that he had off-loaded his truck at the depot at Wanganui. The following morning at 6 o\u2019clock, or half-past 6, he signed on again at the depot \u201Cloading\u201D, but he did not put \u201CWanganui\u201D. Apparently, he was fined in excess of $300 and suspended for a period of time. He was a family man with a couple of children, and, but for the goodness of his employer, he would have lost quite a lot of money. That sort of regime seems ludicrous to New Zealand First. So we are very, very pleased that this Land Transport Amendment Bill simplifies the logbook regime for truck-drivers. It is easier for them to fill in the details and easier for the police to identify any problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis country depends on trucking. Frankly we do not have enough trucks. When the logging comes back on stream, as it will in a year or so, we will be in dire need of more truck-drivers; if not by the thousands, certainly by the hundreds. They are the backbone of society. There is not much that we purchase from retail stores that is not delivered by truck. Indeed, much of the cargo that comes and goes through our ports is handled by trucks. Some people say: \u201CPut it on the rail.\u201D, but railways are not as flexible as trucking when it comes to small parcels of cargo. Rail is OK and is very good when moving goods from depot to depot, but when it comes to small parcels and small container loads\u2014two or three containers or two or three truckloads\u2014trucks are in their element. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is a nation of small exporters, as well as large exporters, and trucks have a role to play. Trucking people are entitled to a straightforward regime, and in our view this simplified logbook will achieve that. I only hope the commercial vehicle inspection unit of the police takes on board what is being done today, and adopts a more cooperative attitude with the trucking people than it has done in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe second area of concern is the contentious issue of passenger endorsements on licences for taxi drivers and bus drivers. New Zealand First totally supports the concept that a person who is guilty of murder or other serious crimes, as listed in the bill, should not be driving a taxi or a bus. We absolutely support the notion that people who have that sort of past should be prohibited from driving taxis or buses. But somewhat regrettably several hundred of our taxi-drivers\u2014if we believe the figures given to us\u2014are guilty of some sort of heinous crime. At one point the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee simply wanted to say \u201Cout\u201D, meaning \u201Cout, out\u201D with those people. But in its wisdom the Government has listened and said that, although it is not prepared to accept those people, if they have an established track record of driving competently and have caused no problems to the public, the bill provides the right of an appeal for some of them\u2014not people who have been guilty of murder, rape, or sexual offences\u2014but, none the less, those who have been guilty of some serious offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper that accompanies this bill provides a means for reinstatement of passenger endorsement for people who have not reoffended in the last 10 years, so have a clean record for that period. Some of them might well have been rehabilitated to such a degree that they own the taxicab or own the business. It would be most unfair to say that we are prohibiting them from driving forever, without any right of appeal. This bill stops them from driving, but it gives them the right of appeal to the Director of Land Transport or, subsequently, to the High Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First prides itself on being the law and order party in this Parliament. We would, if we were honest, want those people totally excluded from driving taxis or buses. But if we want law and order in the country we have to have justice, and justice is dependent on giving everyone a fair hearing. As much as I dislike defending the right of people who are guilty of some awful crimes, to have a fair hearing, if we want law and order we must have justice. Those people are entitled to a hearing, and a legitimate hearing at that. So New Zealand First supports the Supplementary Order Paper, just as it supports the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOur third concern is courtesy vans operated by clubs. I am quite relieved, after talking to the Minister and his officials and hearing the Minister\u2019s comments in the House, that the Government is taking an objective view on this issue. I am told there are 350 licensed clubs in this country with 220,000 voting members. The clubs probably have other associated members who cannot vote. It is common practice for the clubs to run a courtesy bus, although it is illegal for them to charge a fee. They are meant to seek donations, but currently many of them charge a fee. Frankly, the Parliament must face up to the reality of what is happening in the outside world. I am told by the Minister and his officials that because this bill will not come into force until January next year, there is a time frame available. I was encouraged by the Minister\u2019s comments that the Government would be listening to submissions from those clubs, or people associated with those clubs, in a very positive manner, and that he was hopeful of addressing the concern under what he termed \u201Coperating licence rules\u201D. I think I have that correct. This is a good bill, and 90 percent correct\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256a57cb2eb74332b4a4c9322706c2b9\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: 99 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266bf21d7e39445e6a2ba0090cab9d4fa\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That 99 percent must be a record for this Government. So New Zealand First supports the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00226a62f14441e343b58f260250c909eb79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a62f14441e343b58f260250c909eb79\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak briefly in the third reading of this bill. It is probably the last piece of legislation that I will see all the way through this House, and I take the opportunity to thank the chairman of the select committee, Mark Gosche, who knew what was dear to my heart in this legislation\u2014that is, cleaning up the taxi industry by not allowing those who have convictions for serious sexual abuse crimes to hold a P endorsement on their licence and be able to drive taxis or buses. As a member of a small party who is on two select committees, and spokesperson for 10 portfolios, it was difficult for me to be at every single select committee meeting. The chairman went out of his way to make sure that when I was there we discussed clauses that related to those offences, and I do appreciate that. As I said before, it was a good\u2014[Interruption] If those members would just listen for a moment, they would hear that there is no need for them to interject. This legislation is a good example of people working together in a select committee to achieve the required result. I think this legislation does actually make New Zealand, in some small way, a better place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe are cleaning up the taxi industry. We need to clean up the taxi industry. For a while there were a lot of calls that it needed to be totally regulated again. This legislation steers a way between those two opposites, if one likes. There is no need to go back to total regulation of the taxi industry. We do not want to go back to the days when women came out of a restaurant at 11 o\u2019clock at night and there was not a taxi in sight. The industry was so tightly controlled and so expensive to get into that there was never a taxi when one really needed one. That did not make for safe cities. There is still some merit to the argument put forward by people who have been in the taxi industry for quite a long time that perhaps we should look at devolving the control of the taxi industry back to local authorities or local communities. They have an interest in keeping a good taxi industry in their town or city, because it is a reflection on the state of their town or city. They could take some pride in having a good fleet of taxis, good drivers, and all that sort of thing. It is more a matter of self-interest for them. This bill does not deal with that, but maybe it will be dealt with in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I am particularly pleased got through is the provision to make the ban on those with serious convictions retrospective; it will apply to those already in the industry. It is a very high bar; sexual crimes subject to a sentence of 7 years\u2019 jail or more, murder, and a number of other crimes fall into that category. But we did discuss and get the officials to work out whether we could make it retrospective. We all agreed, and there was cross-party support, with Lianne Dalziel, Lynne Pillay, Maurice Williamson, and myself in particular agreeing that it was just not good enough to allow these people to drive in these situations\u2014even to drive a bus. Maurice Williamson raised the point that perhaps the case of a bus driver is not quite so bad, because a lot of passengers are on board, so it is harder to commit a crime. That is not the only point. I believe that people who pay for a service\u2014and we are talking about paying passengers here\u2014have a right to know that the person who is driving, and in charge of that service, is a fit and proper person. By a fit and proper person we mean that that person has not been convicted of any serious crime. It is not just about whether we give them the opportunity to commit those crimes again; it is about the safety of communities and the perception of being safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThat is why I agreed that we needed to look at the issue of being fair to those who have been rehabilitated\u2014that they should have a right of appeal to the High Court when their application to renew their licence is turned down. We now have seen that come in on a Supplementary Order Paper, slightly differently. Unlike the Minister, I do not have a huge amount of faith in the Director of Land Transport in terms of his using his discretion to decide whether those people are fit and proper persons, especially when their crimes were committed overseas. However, we shall have to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe thing I do take issue with is the 10-year barrier. Peter Brown thinks 10 years is enough\u2014what if, for instance, the taxi-driver has been rehabilitated enough to own his or her own business? Hundreds of sex offenders and murderers own their own business. Owning one\u2019s own business does not make one a safe person by any stretch of the imagination. Kidnapping a child is one of the crimes that, under this legislation, would bar a person from getting a taxi licence, but under Supplementary Order Paper 375 one would have a right of appeal\u2014one would not be barred automatically. Say a person kidnapped a 6-year-old girl, was convicted for that, and did his or her time, and that was 10\u00BD years ago. That little girl would now be 16\u00BD years. She gets into a cab and sees that the man who kidnapped her 10 years ago is driving the cab. Ten years ago is nothing to that person. In that person\u2019s life it is nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAnother crime that comes under the category of appeal is attempted murder. For murder a person is automatically barred, but for attempted murder a person is not. The intent is still the same; it is just that the person did not succeed. He or she did not kill the person; he or she attempted to murder the person, intended to murder him or her. To me 10 years back is not enough. What if a person was the subject of a murder attempt when he or she was 40 years old, and 10 years later jumps on a bus, hands over the fare, and sees that the driver is the person who attempted to murder him or her 10, 11, 12 years ago? Those people should not have such a low barrier to the right of appeal. I still think they should go back to the High Court to fight it out there. If they were genuinely rehabilitated, and genuinely believed that they had a right to be in a position of trust, then they would put their money where their mouth is and fork out the amount of money needed to appeal to the High Court. They would not take such an appeal lightly. I am not saying that people do not become rehabilitated; they do. But there are plenty of other jobs\u2014and other driving jobs\u2014that they can do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIn closing, another thing that the bill does not address, but that needs to be addressed in terms of taxi-drivers, is stopping Work and Income New Zealand from using taxpayers\u2019 money to set immigrants up with cars and licences\u2014providing translators when they sit exams, and putting signs on its walls telling them that they can get jobs as taxi-drivers. As someone said recently, when one comes out of the Auckland airport one could be excused for thinking one was in downtown Delhi, or somewhere like that. We have more than enough taxi-drivers. We do not need to spend taxpayers\u2019 money putting immigrants into taxis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e93470f8be34aa29e2a17ab5c1ea739\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: So they don\u2019t deserve a job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd612a49d164a6f8c1a0c3cf061e0ee\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: Of course they deserve a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6079aa97c44e07a28b18fbc8ebfd0f\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t deserve a job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba91ba63232498f99a5f8cc8479547c\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says they do not deserve a job. He might think they do not deserve a job. I ask him whose money is getting them into a job. It is taxpayers\u2019 money; money is being taken off the taxpayers to get them into a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c031bdfd15fd455a8e049d98187a14bd\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: So are we going to spend money on white people getting a job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a31b301c9149b195f3bf18a485f58f\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: We only take brown immigrants, do we? I thought we took immigrants from all over the world. The Minister does not want brown immigrants getting into jobs. Well, that is very interesting from that Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I am just pleased to be able to support this legislation. Although it will not be the silver bullet for the taxi industry or the transport industry, it goes a long way, and the ACT party will be voting for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c03b8fe4c9b24ef29f1f7abca39d9cca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c03b8fe4c9b24ef29f1f7abca39d9cca\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I endorse the comments of Deborah Coddington about the cooperative nature of the process. In fact, it is interesting to hear the sort of barracking across the House. The select committee was much more peaceful than that. We support the Land Transport Amendment Bill. It contains a range of common-sense measures and is the outcome of numerous submissions and substantial consultation and deliberation. However, the Greens felt obliged to include a minority report on the bill. It reported back over the decision of the committee to make passenger licence \u201Cfit and proper person\u201D provisions retrospective, without minimum sentence or appeal provisions. As originally written, the bill made provision for the opportunity to exempt individuals sentenced to less than 2 years in prison, and it was not proposed that the provisions be retrospective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E Because of several well-publicised incidents of individuals with serious convictions gaining a P endorsement on a licence and subsequently committing an offence against a passenger, the committee decided the provisions should be retrospective. The committee considered the possibility of appeal, but, apart from myself and latterly Peter Brown, it was not satisfied that the conditions for appeal as presented by the officials were sufficiently robust to protect passengers from the possibility of finding themselves in a taxicab with a rapist or murderer. So rather than run the risk of letting anyone through, it was decided to remove the possibility by removing all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington asked whether the time period of 10 years without conviction was long enough, if, for example, the person\u2019s last conviction was more than 10 years ago. She wondered about people who had been convicted of kidnapping or rape, but we must remember that in addition to the 10-year requirement, the director has to be convinced the person is unlikely to offend again. I would have thought that a person convicted of a serious sexual offence or kidnapping would be unlikely to pass the barrier. I agree with the intent of the provision, and since the \u201Cfit and proper person\u201D test may not on occasions have been applied robustly enough in the past, there may be a case for re-examining drivers with previous serious convictions. However, the prospect of depriving persons of their livelihood long after conviction, and quite possibly for an offence at the minor end of the scale, and removing the minimum sentence provisions for an offence for which the person has already been punished and which the community may well have known about and forgiven long-ago, is, in my opinion, unfair and would likely result in a serious injustice, without any improvement in passenger safety. The Greens are pleased that the Supplementary Order Paper reinstates the minimum sentences and provides for a right of appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI have a query about new section 29B(1) inserted by clause 13: \u201CA person whose passenger endorsement is deemed to be expired and of no effect under section 29A(1A) may apply to the Director to have that passenger endorsement reinstated if\u2014(a) the person has not been convicted of an offence specified in section \u2026;\u201D. Then follows the word \u201Cand\u201D, and I wonder whether it should be \u201Cor\u201D. Because paragraph (b) states: \u201Cthe person\u2019s last conviction for a specified serious offence occurred more than 10 years before the commencement of this section; and\u201D. It seems to me it should be \u201Cor\u201D. Perhaps I have read it wrongly, but people might want to think about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWhen I drew attention to the matter originally, one party put out a press release saying the Greens were soft on crime and wanted rapists and murderers to be driving taxis. Of course that is nonsense. People convicted of serious offences should not be driving taxis, but this provision is for those at the lower end of offending. The Supplementary Order Paper provides that the director may reinstate a passenger endorsement if he or she is convinced that the applicant poses no risk to the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe point was made that even schoolteachers and early childhood workers are not subject to such conditions. It is not difficult to imagine an incensed public dumping on Parliament at the prospect of losing their taxi-driver, perhaps the only taxi-driver, in a small rural community, because of a 30-year-old scrap, an only offence by that person, committed in his or her youth. That is the kind of situation that no doubt some members in the House might have found themselves in, had they not been lucky. I can think of times in the past when I have been beaten up by people and not inflicted any great injury on anybody, but it is possible that I could have found myself in such a situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI know that most members of the committee shared my concerns about the possibility of an injustice and were motivated by a concern for the safety of passengers. I hope they are satisfied that the amendments made will not endanger passengers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI wish to speak briefly about the provision for licensing small motorised personal transport devices\u2014namely, mopeds, scooters, skateboards, recumbents, etc. The rationale for exempting these vehicles is that if the motor is such that they pose no more threat than someone on a bicycle, then what justification can there be for treating them differently? The bill has a little wriggle-room to provide the director with the opportunity to consider new and innovative devices that might pose a minimal risk, for inclusion in the list of devices not requiring licensing. I think that is an interesting aspect, and with the need for more innovative means of transport, it opens up the opportunity for some of those more innovative means of transport. The Greens will be supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u00220f2c57ac37e34b9bac562dd2e2878ade\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f2c57ac37e34b9bac562dd2e2878ade\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future is also supporting the bill. I think one of its strongest points is the restrictions on the taxi industry. I want to pick up on what Deborah Coddington was saying about offenders. I was thinking about that over the lunch break, and definitely there are certain areas of transgression that prevent people from having a second chance and being in the situation of being a taxi-driver\u2014such as sexual sins. When we think about the 10-year time period in respect of past convictions, we do not know what might trigger somebody in a certain situation. We are talking about the taxi industry, about the one-on-one situation between a taxi-driver and a female or male passenger. Therefore, the amendment is a welcome addition to enable people to feel safe when travelling in taxis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI sat on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for part of the process, and it was great to see the various parties in Parliament working well together on this legislation. It was refreshing, and Mark Gosche did a tremendous job of chairing the committee and picking up on everybody\u2019s viewpoint.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI want to touch on the amendment that United Future has had put in the bill with regard to noisy vehicles. We had actually pushed for the ability to have a noisy vehicle immobilised. The noise is made in the late hours of the night, and causes a nuisance. It is a problem throughout most of the major cities in the country. However, noise in itself is an interesting scenario. In transport, one of the things that has concerned me is that we have regulations that car exhaust systems must be no noisier than they were when originally manufactured. That requirement is causing major challenges to the secondary exhaust market. I fail to see how we can have a requirement that an exhaust be no noisier than when it was originally manufactured. Surely, we must have the simplicity of putting in a maximum decibel level that an exhaust noise can be. My suggestion would be 100 decibels. To give members some idea of what 100 decibels is, I tell them that a Stagecoach bus accelerating away from traffic lights reaches 123 decibels. I myself have checked it with a meter, and 100 decibels is not an unreasonable amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThere are two types of citizens when it comes to noise. Firstly, there are people I refer to as \u201CCAVE\u201D people\u2014\u201CCitizens Against Virtually Everything\u201D\u2014and, secondly, there are the enthusiasts like myself who just want a nice, crisp-sounding exhaust note on their motor vehicle. \u201CCAVE\u201D people are the sort who live around the Western Springs Stadium in Auckland. They move into an area that has the magnificent sound of speedway racing, which has been going on there for decades, and then they begin to complain about the noise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EGetting back to the amendment that United Future wanted, I think it is of serious concern, especially to the tourism industry, when people in cars cause undue noise at night-time in resorts such as Tauranga, and keep people awake. We need to look seriously at how we will address the problem in that area, but I say let us not go overboard and take that nice, crisp exhaust note off all cars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI am also pleased to see that the issue of a P licence\u2014for passenger servicing\u2014for drivers of courtesy vehicles has been looked at. We have to face up to the fact\u2014and provide for it in legislation\u2014that certain service industries are doing road safety a favour in driving people home. Sometimes it becomes a fine balance in the law as to what we are going to do about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EBut overall the bill is good legislation. I believe that it will go a long way to cleaning up a lot of areas. We welcome the changes to the logbook requirements. We think that is a step in the right direction. We acknowledge that more and more of this type of tracking will be done electronically, and that is great. Probably there will not be a problem with speeding trucks in the long term, because all of them will be tracked by the Global Positioning System, and the police will be able to see what speeds they are travelling at in various sectors. In the end, that will bring greater road safety, which I think everybody here is looking forward to. So United Future is happy to support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00228be15fc86f424dd0aeb75a18768e3890\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228be15fc86f424dd0aeb75a18768e3890\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I take this opportunity to take a short call in support of the bill, and also to acknowledge the comments made by previous speakers. I was a member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and quite agree with Paul Adams that Mark Gosche did a great job chairing that committee. We made some very progressive decisions to make this bill very sensible and workable in order to improve safety and security for all road users in New Zealand. I also acknowledge the people who made a submission on courtesy vehicles. We were able to make some really common-sense decisions about the use of courtesy vehicles, making sure that the good work being done in that area is not impeded but that safety is ensured. I will not take any more time. I am proud of this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00227139c5150ca7493f84a20dc369041a36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227139c5150ca7493f84a20dc369041a36\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I notice from the timetable that this bill\u2019s passage through the House is being completed on almost the anniversary date of its introduction to Parliament. The bill was introduced in June 2004, so on the anniversary date of its introduction it is quite pleasing to see parties on all sides of the House supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to raise an issue that I think the National Party and ACT also raised, in terms of whether individuals who have committed serious sexual and other offences in the past can, after a 10-year period without further conviction, be a taxi-driver. We are hopeful that the rigid enforcement of this provision will see a real improvement. I notice that in the last few years, particularly since the promotional campaign against drink-driving has been run, the use of taxis has hugely increased, especially at weekends. Security in terms of the type of individual who is allowed to drive taxis is therefore important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EHowever, from a personal point of view, I am disappointed that Labour and United Future did not see fit to support the two amendments I proposed during the Committee stage. I took one issue just to demonstrate how difficult it was, and how slow it can be at times, to introduce measures to improve safety on roads. For example, I learnt that the 1999 Land Transport (Drivers Licensing) Rule requires that a driving instructor who teaches driving for reward hold the I\u2014driving instructor\u2014endorsement licence. The rule also requires the instructor to have the appropriate class of licence for the vehicle that the learner is being taught to drive. That is all very well, but unfortunately the offence provision for providing unlicensed driving instruction for reward was omitted from the Land Transport Act 1998. That has been picked up only in this current legislation. For an offence to be omitted for 7 years before it can be put right has saddened me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI am also saddened that those two parties did not see fit to accept the two amendments I proposed that would strengthen safety provisions. Currently, individuals who give lessons for monetary reward have to hold an I endorsement licence, yet the public has no transparent or quick way to learn whether they do; neither is an enforcement agent able to verify readily whether driving instructors do hold an I endorsement licence. My amendment was simply that it should be displayed in the vehicle when driving lessons are being conducted. When we think about it, we require taxi-drivers to display their names and identification as a reference point for concerned enforcement agents, passengers, or, in this case, students. I was very disappointed that Labour and United Future did not see fit to incorporate that amendment. I hate to think it will take another 7 years for a sensible amendment like that to be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI also proposed a further amendment that driving instructors who teach for monetary reward should be limited to New Zealand citizens or permanent resident visa holders. If we are concerned about safety on roads, then I think that the people who are qualified to teach for monetary gain should, at least, be very familiar with New Zealand road conditions and New Zealanders\u2019 driving habits, and with legislation and regulations surrounding that. So I was extremely disappointed, once again, that Labour and United Future did not see fit to endorse that amendment. Just now in the courts, a driver\u2019s-licence testing officer has been handed down a sentence of 280 hours\u2019 community service for selling licences to individuals who did not seek to be tested, and another driving instructor who offered to sell licences is now facing sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI am watching with interest to see whether there is one standard of law in New Zealand. I expressed concern that the sentence of 280 hours of community service did not send people a serious enough message about not accepting bribes. I think it is very sad that in New Zealand, where we pride ourselves on not tolerating corruption or bribery, the sentence does not, in my mind, reflect the serious nature of the offence. After all, these individuals did not pass driving tests, and are allowed to drive on New Zealand roads. They are endangering not just their own lives but also those of pedestrians and other drivers on the roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESo I hope Land Transport New Zealand will take this issue seriously, because history shows that it does not respond effectively and efficiently to complaints about driving instructors. Proper investigation seems to be very slow in coming, and there is a reluctance to take action. This morning in my second reading speech I read out the advertisements of driving schools, or of individual driving instructors, which offer individuals a choice of testing officer, a choice of sitting the test on weekends, and a choice of the route of their test. I have been assured by the Minister for Transport Safety, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, that Land Transport New Zealand is undertaking to monitor these types of advertisements. However, these advertisements continue to appear in newspapers. The ones I quoted are dated 10 June, which is last Friday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E Overseas students shared their astonishment at this. They said that in their home countries blatantly fraudulent advertisements like that are not allowed in newspapers, and that they are more likely to be displayed on lamp posts, etc. I urge the Minister to monitor Land Transport New Zealand to ensure that these types of complaints are taken seriously. I think that in New Zealand we should not tolerate publications that contain advertisements of a fraudulent nature, as they indicate that bribery and corruption are taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAlthough National supports this legislation, I am extremely disappointed that Labour and United Future have not endorsed the two amendments I proposed. I can only live in hope that Land Transport New Zealand will start to take those complaints seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb4517a46fed4423836d39ec26ee2eac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb4517a46fed4423836d39ec26ee2eac\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Land Transport Amendment Bill and to say that it is excellent legislation whose introduction was also supported by United Future, the Greens, and, of course, our coalition partner, the Progressive Party. The bill enhances the safety aspects of transport legislation. It improves the law concerning the responsibility of road users. It is tough on serious offences, particularly those in relation to alcohol and speed. It enhances the power to take effective action against repeat drunk-drivers. It also offers security to the travelling public in that those people who have convictions for serious violent and sexual offences will be prohibited from being a taxi-driver. This is good legislation and I am pleased to see that it has the almost unanimous support of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229dd8ef6c407843069199d03d6048aa45\u0022\u003ETariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbcb0f7e8e11423fba3502899367458a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u00224131a63c5bc045beb78b42b3d56b38f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224131a63c5bc045beb78b42b3d56b38f1\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill be now read a second time. I thank the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for its work on this bill. I note that the committee recommends by majority that the bill be passed with no amendments. The committee also noted in its report that it had previously examined the full national-interest analysis of the agreement, and on that occasion the majority also supported the agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe bill amends New Zealand\u2019s domestic legislation to enable New Zealand to become party to the New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership Agreement, thereby allowing the agreement to come into force once Thailand has also completed its domestic implementation processes. The agreement provides for all tariffs applying to goods of New Zealand or Thai origin traded between the two countries to be either eliminated immediately or phased out over a scheduled period. Most New Zealand imports from Thailand already enter duty-free under New Zealand\u2019s existing tariff policy. The agreement provides for the remaining tariffs to reduce to zero variously on 1 July 2005, 1 January 2008, 1 January 2010, or January 2015.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe agreement also provides for the use of bilateral transitional safeguards by both Thailand and New Zealand. These allow either party to address situations of serious injury, or the threat of serious injury, to domestic industries caused by increased imports due to tariff reductions or removal under the agreement. Part 2 provides such a mechanism by creating a new regime under the Tariff Act. This regime establishes the right for a New Zealand industry or company that considers it is suffering serious injury as a result of a surge in competing imports from Thailand to ask the Chief Executive of the Ministry of Economic Development to initiate a safeguards investigation and revert to a higher tariff level for a certain period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe committee addressed several issues that were specific to the content of the bill in particular. The committee considered the consistency of the bilateral safeguard mechanism with World Trade Organization rules. The committee was advised in this regard that the bilateral safeguard mechanism is fully consistent with World Trade Organization rules. The similar strict standards that are currently applied under New Zealand\u2019s global safeguards regime, and that are based on World Trade Organization rules, also underpin this bilateral safeguard mechanism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EDuring the first reading some members raised the issue of new food-testing regulations being proposed in Thailand and the potential effect of those regulations on New Zealand exporters. Although this issue is not directly related to the content of the bill before us and is not part of the closer economic partnership agreement, I would like to take the time to confirm to the House that progress is being made towards resolving this important issue. Since the regulation was first notified late last year, New Zealand, along with Australia and the United States, has successfully argued for a delay in implementation to allow time for our trade concerns to be taken into account. When I met the Thai Ministers of agriculture and commerce at the time of the signing of the agreement, they gave a commitment to work with New Zealand on recognition of New Zealand\u2019s food safety systems in the application of the proposed Thai regulation. New Zealand\u2019s formal application for recognition of our system has been lodged with the Thai authorities. The New Zealand - Thailand closer economic partnership provides a new avenue to help progress this issue. A special meeting of the bilateral Committee on Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures will be held in Thailand on 23 June so that relevant experts can put New Zealand\u2019s case directly to the Thai authorities. That opportunity would not have been available before the agreement was negotiated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EI should note, in response to a point raised during the first reading, that under the agreement\u2019s rules of origin only goods of genuine Thai origin will benefit from the New Zealand tariff reductions. Those rules mean that Thailand will not be a back door for preferential entry of goods from other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EAt the select committee, despite the opportunity to do so, no serious evidence was presented to counter the Government assessment that the agreement will not have an adverse overall impact on New Zealand producers. The adjustment effects arising from the removal of New Zealand tariffs on goods imported from Thailand under the agreement are expected to be negligible. First, some 65 percent of imports from Thailand already enter duty-free. Second, the phase-out arrangements for New Zealand\u2019s more sensitive sectors are very gradual. For sensitive products with a lower tariff, such as whiteware, existing tariffs will effectively be maintained at current levels before being removed in 2010. Finally, adjustment assistance has been made available in the context of New Zealand\u2019s unilateral tariff reductions, to help the textiles, clothing, footwear, and carpet sectors build skills and global competitiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EAlthough the adjustment effects in New Zealand will be limited, the opportunities being created for New Zealand exporters in the Thai market are significant. Thailand is a heavily protected market. Tariffs are levied on virtually all imports from New Zealand\u2014many are in the 20 percent to 40 percent range. Under the agreement, Thailand will eliminate tariffs immediately on over half of New Zealand\u2019s current exports, including most current manufactured exports, and progressively phase out the remainder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EIn broader terms, this agreement offers the most far-reaching bilateral market opening for New Zealand since CER. As noted in the select committee report, the bill will deliver real benefits to many New Zealand industries, and will open up opportunities for New Zealand to develop the trading relationship with Thailand to its full potential. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0c59d1fdc1d4d51a7fcf913837ca6db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0c59d1fdc1d4d51a7fcf913837ca6db\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E That was the Minister for Trade Negotiations, who has just announced one of the most wimpish actions I have ever heard of, as an election sop to apple growers in this country. After years of discussions with the Australians over access for apples, that Minister has said\u2014wow\u2014that the Labour Government will have more discussions at the World Trade Organization. The Minister knows that those sorts of things never resolve intractable disputes like this, and he should explain to the House why he is not taking dispute resolution action\u2014something with a bit of guts in it\u2014for our apple exporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI come back to the bill. This is the third trade agreement that this country is passing legislation to implement. The first one was CER with Australia, which was negotiated by a National Government. It remains\u2014despite the fact that it was negotiated in 1982, more than 20 years ago\u2014one of the world\u2019s highest-quality trade agreements. The second one was the free-trade agreement\u2014or closer economic partnership, as this Government calls them\u2014with Singapore. That was largely negotiated, as well, by the last National Government. In fact, I signed the heads of agreement on that one prior to the election in 1999. That is also a very high-quality trade agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis is the first trade agreement New Zealand seeks to implement that has been negotiated by a Labour Government. It is a low-quality agreement. It is the first one negotiated by any Labour Government, and it is a poor-quality agreement. We will support it, because it is better than nothing. We made it clear in the debate on the first reading that we will support it, because it is better than not having an agreement, but it is a poor-quality agreement. Of this country\u2019s GDP, 68 percent comprises services businesses, and this agreement does nothing to gain access for our services. This agreement does nothing to gain 68 percent of our economy\u2014service industry providers\u2014access to the Thai economy. All it does is say that in 3 years\u2019 time a services negotiation will be initiated. That is not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe second problem we have with the agreement is that, despite the fact that the Government says its policy is not to have laws that give more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori, the agreement has in it a reservation allowing it to provide \u201Cmore favourable treatment to M\u0101ori\u201D, and National opposes that. I am not allowed to use the word \u201Chypocrisy\u201D, but I do not know how a Government can claim a policy of not having more favourable treatment for M\u0101ori, and then, in an agreement like this, have the exact words \u201Cmore favourable treatment to M\u0101ori\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOur third concern is that, under this legislation, tariffs here in New Zealand will not be phased out in total for Thai imports into the country until 2015. The reason why that is a problem is that the Minister for Trade Negotiations, the Hon Jim Sutton, who is meant to be one of the leading trade Ministers in APEC, has brought into this House legislation that in its effect will breach New Zealand\u2019s commitments to APEC. The APEC Bogor goals that New Zealand has been signed up to for years require us to remove all impediments to free trade by 2010. That is what we signed up to. Labour has never officially resiled from that. If the member for Otaki\u2014who is about to lose his seat, because National has a far better candidate than the little feller, the fifth-former from \u014Ctaki, Darren Hughes\u2014thinks Labour has officially resiled from the Bogor goals of APEC, he should tell us when that was, so that we know that the Government has done so. If the Government has not resiled from the Bogor goals, why does this agreement extend beyond those goals? Why does it make a mockery of New Zealand\u2019s commitment to APEC? That is the third reason why we consider this to be such a low-quality agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESpecifically, at the select committee\u2014incidentally, how long did the select committee have to consider this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a8b59b56304442bd30013cbd84cf0d\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: 13 working-days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1dfc45eec864758a05edf538282ab0f\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The select committee had 13 working-days to consider the bill. One meeting was available, and half an hour was set aside for the third trade agreement New Zealand has ever entered into. According to my notes, it was on 2 June that the select committee, very briefly, looked at this legislation. It is too important for such brief examination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat National questioned extensively was Part 2. Part 2 puts into New Zealand law, for the first time, transitional safeguard measures in a free-trade agreement. The Minister for Trade Negotiations has already acknowledged that in his second reading debate contribution. It is a serious move for New Zealand, for the first time, to put into our law transitional safeguard measures. Those measures, by their very nature, are complex international trade law measures. I will come back to that. The bit that I wanted to make sure National clarified at the select committee was that some concerns were being expressed by people who are reasonably knowledgable about international trade issues as to whether the measures in this legislation were totally consistent with our obligations under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, particularly article 24 of that agreement. Clause 8 of article 24 caused the most concern to observers of New Zealand\u2019s trade measures. But the officials at the select committee, of whom a number are present in the House right now, gave the committee an unequivocal assurance that the specific provisions in Part 2 of the bill that implement the transitional safeguard measures are totally consistent with the requirements of GATT, particularly article 24. National members accepted the advice of officials, but we make it very clear that we do have some lingering concerns, and we are accepting that advice only because the officials were so unequivocal that the provisions were consistent with GATT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me come back to the fundamental problem with safeguard provisions. Clause 7 inserts new sections 15A to 15H into the principal Act. New section 15B states: \u201C(1) The chief executive may undertake a transitional safeguard investigation to ascertain whether goods that have been subject to tariff reduction or removal after entry into force of the free trade agreement\u2014(a) are being imported in increased quantities \u2026\u201D\u2014and I thought trade agreements were meant to result in increased quantities of items being imported and exported\u2014\u201Cand (b) are causing, or threatening to cause, serious injury\u201D. Members of the House can understand why this is complex law. How does one establish whether something that is being imported in increased quantities is threatening to cause injury to an industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has been on the receiving end of punishment from this kind of safeguard provision. Members will have short memories if they do not remember the US lamb tariffs. The US argued that increased export of New Zealand lamb to the United States was injuring, or threatening to injure, its industry, and it imposed tariffs on us. It is complex law. When it is used against New Zealand it can be very damaging. This House should think seriously about the provisions in Part 2. The worst feature is that Thailand reserves the right to impose transitional safeguard measures against our agricultural exports to Thailand. If this agreement is worth anything, they should increase under this agreement, and, therefore, we automatically risk safeguard measures being taken against us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think the House should look very carefully at Part 2. During the Committee stage National will examine it in some detail, because I can just see all the actions and investigations being taken to implement safeguard measures, to the disadvantage of trade between our two countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022c330bf2ca3f44cf3a4d95b48422f83e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c330bf2ca3f44cf3a4d95b48422f83e5\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I have said a number of times about that member\u2014and I think it is true today\u2014that he makes very angry and sour speeches. I can recall, before I became a member but when I worked in this place, when international trade issues were generally\u2014on both sides, actually, regardless of who was in Opposition and who was in Government\u2014treated in a non-partisan way. I have to say that that was a slightly over-the-top, sour speech. I suppose it is no wonder, given that it was made by a member who will soon become the former trade spokesperson for the National Party when a certain individual, Mr Tim Groser, enters this place on the Opposition benches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe are looking at the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill 2005. If we look at it in the context of this Government\u2019s track record, we note that it is interesting that this Government has a superb track record in negotiating deals to the benefit of this country. [Interruption] Hold on! Help is on the way. I am coming to it\u2014taihoa. It seems that somebody over there\u2014Mr Carter\u2014is having a bad hair day. This Thailand agreement is projected to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars to this country. I would have thought that that would be a non-partisan, unarguable issue for both sides of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ELet us look at this Government\u2019s track record in respect of trade, and let us look at the Singapore agreement that has been implemented. I was reliably advised, before I came into this place, that the then National Government spent an inordinate amount of time negotiating an agreement with Singapore. That is fair enough\u2014good stuff. But I am advised that, in reality, all the goods involved in that agreement were free of tariffs anyway, apart from, I am told, beer. Beer was the only sticking point that National\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db191eab402346c6afd533a8e2e732fa\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member opposite made a very unparliamentary comment, and he should withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225220f1f5e4b34ff3b03fda1bba980fcc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I was sneezing at the time and missed it, so would the member please withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eff628ec12b8426fb5a74afd5713b64d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is very difficult in this Parliament to encourage members to tell the truth to the House. I know that you will say that there are mechanisms for doing it and that it is not a point of order to raise this, but I have just demonstrated the dilemma. It will go into the record of the House that Mr Cosgrove said that National took a long time to negotiate the closer economic partnership agreement with Singapore. In fact, the record will show that it was done in record time\u2014it was done in just a few months. That is the dilemma. When members are careless with the truth, there is no way\u2014unless we go through all the rigmarole of personal statements\u2014to bring them back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b1195448644fd5b750a1bdb7d7eb8f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is right; that was not a point of order. But perhaps it is a matter that the next speaker for National could clarify for the record. I remind members to stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e0a80877784274959334a09ad15de5\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I am obliged that you were sneezing, Madam Speaker, and not yawning during my speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI come back to the bill and the track record of this Government. The point I was making in respect of Singapore is that I am advised that beer was the only product that could not enter Singapore duty-free. National got hung up and stuck on that\u2014and it took this Government to complete that deal, which we have done. We have also entered into the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership Agreement negotiations between Chile, Singapore, Brunei, and ourselves. We are in negotiations now with China, Malaysia, and the whole of ASEAN. So I would have thought that if we rack up the report card between Labour and National in respect of our history in trade negotiations, we beat them hands down. I invite the next speaker for the National Party, in addressing this bill, to point to National\u2019s achievements in respect of trade negotiations in 9 long years of Government. If we go back from there, we hit my predecessor Mike Moore. His track record in the 1980s stands for itself in respect of trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWhat does the New Zealand - Thailand agreement do? It opens up, yet again, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of business opportunities for our people and our businesses. I say to the National members that I would have thought they would agree that this agreement is something we can celebrate. I would have thought they could get beyond politics and not have a sour, derogatory, and very negative attitude. I think that our diplomatic people, who are beyond politics, most New Zealanders, and most New Zealand businesses are gratified for any sort of free-trade agreement, whichever party it comes from, because they want to grow their businesses and they want further opportunities. The deal with Thailand will give them those further opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is a little bit rich for National members to stand up and bag an agreement when they belong to a party whose history is one of incompetence and the incompletion of international free-trade agreements. The member mentioned the issue of apples. I recall that National was in Government for nigh on a decade, and the question is: what did it do? Well, those members have seen some action from us on that issue. I invite National members to revisit their track record in respect of trade negotiations. I am told that the member who spoke before was great at turning up at meetings. Whether he ever got to the green room, I do not know. We know that now he will not, for two reasons: first, he is in Opposition; and second, Mr Groser will have his job\u2014and I wonder why Don Brash stabbed the member in the back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI ask the member and the next speaker from the National Party to show a little faith and a little bipartisanship and to celebrate what is for New Zealand business, for New Zealand jobs, and for Kiwis rich and poor, old and young, and in work and out of work, a great opportunity to take advantage of yet another huge market in Asia\u2014a huge market in the world\u2014where we can push our products and services first and earn money for this country. It is a good agreement. I commend the Minister for his work. Let us just get on with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f05c364fef413ca9097feaecb38f4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f05c364fef413ca9097feaecb38f4d\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The speech made by the Hon Dr Lockwood Smith was excellent. He was highly critical of the bill. New Zealand First is opposed to the bill, and Dr Smith reinforced New Zealand First\u2019s view that we should oppose it. I do not think the member said anything in favour of it. He was highly critical of it and gave good reasons why we should not support it, and I endorse everything he had to say. He has confirmed New Zealand First\u2019s view that we should oppose this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI should perhaps mention in passing, seeing as the previous two speakers have referred to it, the issue of apples. I raise with the Minister for Trade Negotiations, Jim Sutton, that the answer he gave me in the House yesterday was not consistent with the facts in so far as apple leaders are concerned. He gave a clear indication to the House that all the apple leaders supported this dispute with Australia going to the subcommittee. My understanding is that that is not the case. They want this dispute on apples to go to the disputes committee. In due course this matter will be taken further in the appropriate way, unless the Minister reconsiders, quite promptly, the statement he made to the House yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is concerned, in terms of this legislation, about the workers of New Zealand. Today we have not heard Labour members mention workers at all, because they really do not care about them. Clayton Cosgrove gave an apology of a speech that was really based on an attack on Dr Lockwood Smith and offered nothing positive. Mr Cosgrove gave the impression that he was concerned about the delay in bringing a new brand of beer into New Zealand. Perhaps he wished to try it and was concerned that it was not getting here fast enough, so as soon as he came into Government he allowed it to come into New Zealand so he could give it a try. That seemed to be the basis of his whole speech. Surely, Labour members can do better than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EBut let us talk about workers. I read in the national interest analysis, in reference, for a change, to the disadvantages\u2014the officials quite properly set out advantages and disadvantages\u2014the statement: \u201CThe clothing, footwear and carpet sector, where the highest tariffs of 17-19 percent prevail, has traditionally been the most sensitive to tariff reductions. Concerns in relation to imports from Thailand were also raised in respect of whiteware, plasterboard, steel and certain textiles.\u201D New Zealand First is concerned about the future of New Zealand\u2019s clothing industry, footwear industry, carpet sector, and whiteware, plasterboard, steel, and textile industries. For the reasons outlined in our minority view, which were confirmed, I believe, by Lockwood Smith, we are opposed to this legislation. I think the words used by Dr Smith were that this is a poor-quality deal, and it is a very minor one in so far as New Zealand trade relations and import and export trade are concerned. In New Zealand First\u2019s view, we should not be setting an example as being anti - New Zealand workers so soon in any trade negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E I have looked at the December 2004 statistics on New Zealand exports to Thailand and imports from Thailand. The top 20 exports to Thailand in 2004 were worth $297 million. Of that, almost $255 million came from dairy products, and suchlike. That is to be commended, as is the fact that we are moving into the baby food area. Asian people\u2014and I was born and brought up in Asia, and came here when I was 15\u2014do not eat or drink dairy products. Dairy food is alien to them in general. It is excellent that our exporters are targeting the baby food market so that those consumers can literally grow into it and the market can constantly grow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ERegarding our imports from Thailand, I know now why the Labour Government wants to support this legislation. We know that Labour does not care about the workers any more. In the reign of Louis XVI, Marie Antoinette said of the starving workers words to this effect: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about them; if they can\u2019t eat bread, give them cake.\u201D I see from the trade statistics that we are importing $21 million worth of caviar from Thailand. It seems to me that the Labour Government\u2019s new saying to the workers might be: \u201CIf you can\u2019t get a beer or a decent meal, eat caviar; we\u2019ll get it for you from Thailand.\u201D That is the way things seem to be working. The Labour Government does not care about New Zealand workers at all any more. It can buy off a certain group of people with benefits, and suchlike. Whether in relation to a trade deal or in any other area, the Labour Party does not seem to have any regard for workers at all. The things that are coming in from Thailand at the moment include $121 million worth of trucks and vans, air-conditioning machines, and suchlike. A lot of those things come in duty-free already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EDr Lockwood Smith from National said that this was a poor-quality agreement. One does wonder why we are spending so much time on something like this. Why did we bother to get into a deal with Thailand at all, bearing in mind that some things, like services, are not covered at all, that so many parts of the agreement do not start until 2015, and that some start dates are even extended to 2025? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI want to take up the point raised by Dr Lockwood Smith as to why we must bring a reference to the Treaty of Waitangi into this bill. Why does article 15.8 of the agreement reserve the right for New Zealand to adopt \u201Cmeasures it deems necessary to afford more favourable treatment to Maori \u2026 including in fulfilment of its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D? What is this fetish on the part of the Labour Government and its supporters that when we get into trade deals with places like Thailand and Singapore, we must somehow bring in our obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi? Are our importers supposed to take this into account when they are dealing with Thai people? Is that why caviar exports from Thailand will increase\u2014because sturgeon was not fished by M\u0101ori people in days gone by? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOther aspects of this bill should, of course, be borne in mind. New Zealand First has been very concerned about the constant arrogant attitude of the Labour Government. The Prime Minister signed this agreement before the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee had finalised its deliberations on the national interest analysis, and certainly before the passing of this bill. We have a bill before us by which Parliament is to ratify the agreement, but the Prime Minister has already signed the agreement\u2014weeks ago, in Thailand. What is the point of coming here if that is the arrogant attitude Prime Minister Helen Clark constantly adopts towards New Zealand? She does not really care about this Parliament. She does not care about what happens here, whether it is a matter of social engineering legislation or of any other type of legislation. This agreement with Thailand has already been signed. The Prime Minister had a grand TV opportunity. How the Prime Minister loves her television opportunities! She has breached the Cabinet Manual, as well. In New Zealand First\u2019s view, the Labour Government has breached the Cabinet Manual, because this matter was considered by the select committee for only 13 working days, not 15 working days. The Government\u2019s whole attitude to this legislation has been cavalier and arrogant. It shows absolutely no regard for this Parliament whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI take Dr Lockwood Smith\u2019s point on the service industries. That is an excellent reason why we should not pass this bill, bearing in mind New Zealand\u2019s achievements in this area. The national interest analysis notes some of the disadvantages to New Zealand in entering a closer economic partnership with Thailand. On page 22 is an unusual insertion: \u201CThe broader negotiation involved New Zealand meeting some specific Thai interests such as in the area of temporary employment for specialist Thai chefs and, potentially, traditional Thai massage therapists. The access for specialist Thai chefs to work temporarily in New Zealand subject to certain conditions is not however expected to displace New Zealand workers. Care will be taken to ensure the integrity of any system for temporary employment access ultimately offered for traditional Thai massage therapists.\u201D If we look around Auckland, Wellington, or wherever we very soon find out just what a traditional Thai massage therapist is. [Interruption] He is not in my party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI just say that this is a very unusual piece of legislation. It is a poor-quality bill, and New Zealand First will not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00223c54cf739fef41cc8c0e8ef36e612713\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c54cf739fef41cc8c0e8ef36e612713\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to say that we will oppose this bill, and we presented a minority report on the bill to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. Although this bill has some good features and the agreement will bring some advantages, particularly for New Zealand agriculture in terms of promoting and selling agricultural products in Thailand, they are outweighed by the disadvantages for the people of Thailand, both workers and farmers, for workers in New Zealand, and for our manufacturing industry, which will be undermined by this bill and by the agreement on which it is based. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI want to go through some of the disadvantages. Firstly, will the agreement help Thai workers? The proponents of this agreement, and agreements like it, say that such an agreement will help the people of the country we are signing it with. They say that it will help these people develop. It is true that Thailand has developed and that it is not the poorest country, although the Oxfam analysis that was submitted to the select committee on the closer economic partnership agreement shows a great difference between rich and poor and between the rural and urban sectors in Thailand. Wages are very low, much lower than New Zealand wages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Council of Trade Unions put out a statement a few months back warning of the risks of trade deals such as this. It referred to the Thai agreement, then in preparation. While it noted that the agreement included a process to enable unions to take up complaints about breaches of labour rights in Thailand\u2014which was, it said, an improvement on the closer economic partnership agreement with Singapore, which made no reference to labour issues\u2014it still felt that the agreement fell far short of an enforceable and meaningful process to address breaches of core labour conventions, such as the use of child labour and forced labour, discrimination, and the suppression of union rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Council of Trade Unions referred to a 2003 study of Thailand conducted by the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions that reported on forced labour, sweatshops, the exploitation of illegal migrant workers\u2014including workers involved in the production of clothing for export\u2014and forced prostitution, including national and international trafficking in women and girls. Added to that, Thailand has not signed and implemented all the core ILO conventions. So there is a serious problem as to whether the workers of Thailand will really benefit from this agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E The Greens argue that richer nations such as ours have a certain duty to say that if we are going to have trade agreements with other countries, we would have to seriously discuss questions like labour standards and the effect of the trade agreements on communities, and would try to use negotiations to improve a situation for the workers of that country\u2014in this case, Thailand. That has not been done. There are, as the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions said, some improvements over the Singapore agreement in the general text of the treaty, but there is nothing at all in the bill itself that will try to make Thailand adherent of labour standards, ILO conventions, etc. In fact, during the Committee stage, the Green Party will put forward a number of amendments to try to at least get such provisions in the bill before us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is not just the question of Thai workers, either. There was a very interesting submission from Oxfam New Zealand, which I referred to previously, to the select committee on the New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership Treaty. As I said at the beginning, there are some advantages for New Zealand in the promotion of dairy exports, but the Oxfam submission actually had a section on dairy farmers in Thailand, which I found quite interesting. Oxfam, of course, is looking at the interests of poorer countries, and often people in the rural sector, in particular. Oxfam said there is a potentially vulnerable sector in Thailand, which is dairy, on which 60,000 Thai farmers and their families are directly dependent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOxfam referred to an Australian study by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Australia, and it quoted a bit from that department: \u201CAs for the dairy sector, subsequent intense competition under the terms of an FTA would marginalise Thai dairy farmers, and thus adversely affect employment.\u201D That is what the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade thinks as they approach fair trade negotiations. They said that perhaps the growing world demand for milk solids might mitigate this, and that it was possible that if countries like Australia and New Zealand help Thai farmers improve their dairy industry, it would reduce that problem for Thai dairy farmers. They also said that that does not seem to be the case in Thailand, because the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade talks about a new Nestl\u00E9 plant in Thailand for canned milk, which will be supplied by Australian imports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think we have to look at that if we are to make our trade policy consistent with our aid policy, which is what Oxfam is trying to do. We have to assist small-scale dairy farmers in Thailand, alongside developing our own markets there. Oxfam said that the approach of helping Thai farmers should precede any threat to their current livelihoods from import liberalisation. Oxfam was also concerned about making sure Thailand fully implements ILO core conventions, particularly in the light of serious breaches of workers\u2019 rights and safety, most notably in the case of factory fires. That is illustrative of problems for the Thai people flowing from this agreement in the bill we are discussing today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EFor New Zealand workers, there could be significant job losses, particularly in the textile and clothing sector, where, if there are no tariffs at all, Thai products could compete very well with their very low wages. That would also undermine our manufacturing industry. It is true there is a transitional provision in the bill. It is not spelt out in terms of years in the bill, but if one refers back to the original treaty, one can see that this transitional period is for a maximum of 3 years. That is not very long to protect New Zealand workers from the competition of very low-paid Thai workers. So that is not sufficient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn closing, I reinforce what Dail Jones said, which is that it is strange that the select committee was discussing\u2014and in the end approving\u2014this bill after the agreement had actually been signed. I think that shows the need for a provision that came before the House a year or 2 ago when I put forward the International Treaties Bill, which required that Parliament should approve international treaties. Parliament should not just be at the end of the process, and its consideration is actually being treated as irrelevant by the Government of the day. We need a proper process there. The Green Party is also concerned that services are not included in this agreement yet, although there will be negotiations on services. We are concerned that there will be an undermining of our services, and of our control of our own services, be it health, education, or Government services, if we give to businesspeople in countries like Thailand free entry to our market in that respect. We are very concerned, and I think that in total the bill is not one that the Green Party can support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd38dda5e7d1434b99b193b9e8e46e1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd38dda5e7d1434b99b193b9e8e46e1c\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party supports the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill and will be voting for it. We recognise that trade is the lifeblood of the New Zealand economy. I acknowledge the good work that Minister Jim Sutton and his officials have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe believe that trade should be a non-partisan issue. It is in the interests of the New Zealand economy as a whole to promote freer trade in a global sense. Obviously, like others, we would prefer to see multilateral trade agreements. There are serious advantages that multilateral trade agreements have over bilateral agreements. They are fairer in a global sense. If we think about the work\u2014the glacially slow work\u2014made at the Tokyo round, followed by at the Uruguay round, and now at the current Doha round, it is a disappointment for a country like New Zealand to have the agreements stalled, but we keep plugging away. Successive Ministers in successive Governments of all persuasions have been consistently promoting New Zealand\u2019s interests at international fora in getting and working for freer trade. Overwhelmingly, it is in our enlightened self-interest to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EOne of the problems with bilateral trade is that the more powerful nation actually has advantages over the least powerful nation. But it is all progress along the way. This particular agreement with Thailand is not perfect. Other speakers have commented that it has limitations. All trade agreements always will have limitations. But each step is a step towards freer and more open, comparative trade. That is why it is certainly in New Zealand\u2019s interests to advocate for freer trade based on comparative advantage, and it is for that reason that we have to accept that although we may have an advantage overall, there will be adjustments. Some of the adjustments may carry some pain. Certainly, if we have areas of quite high protection, or relatively high protection\u2014perhaps in clothing and textiles\u2014then we do not have the comparative advantage, so, yes, we may lose some jobs in that sector. But New Zealand First and the Greens have to understand the point that, to the extent that the overall New Zealand economy will be stronger, other jobs and opportunities will open up that will more than compensate for that. One of the great advantages of trade is that both parties benefit, and the collective benefit actually creates greater prosperity, not just for the countries involved but for the world at large. A rising tide lifts all boats, and that is what freer trade can do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe other thing to note, of course\u2014and I think I mentioned it at an earlier stage in this debate\u2014is that throughout history, no two openly democratic nations that have traded with each other have ever gone to war. I put out the challenge to members to name two openly democratic countries that have traded together that have ever gone to war. One of the best ways of building global securities is actually to open up for trade, but the xenophobic arguments from the Greens and New Zealand First are the very arguments that create instabilities and problems, in an international sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EIn the big-picture view, I think that one of the greatest obscenities in the world is the way that wealthy nations in Europe and North America insist on free trade in areas where they have comparative advantages, based on high-tech goods, and the like, yet deny developing countries the same opportunity\u2014in fact, engage in massive subsidisation and tariff protection against the developing Third World. It just so happens that although New Zealand is not characterised as a Third World nation, structurally our economy is more representative of being so, with our heavy dependence upon agricultural goods. So it is true that we would benefit, but so would some of those poverty-stricken nations of Africa, and the like. That is why I take exception to the Greens\u2019 argument that says: \u201COh, no, no. We should give these countries more aid.\u201D, and then they come to this House and vote against opening up with trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThere is no better way to assist people to lift their standards of living and to gain prosperity than to trade with them. I find it an incredible hypocrisy and contradiction to promote more aid on the one hand but to deny the opening up of trade on the other hand. Yes, by our standards some of those countries may well operate sweatshops, and employment conditions may be a lot harsher than we would accept, but the way to lift those conditions is to open up trade and, with growing prosperity, those other social standards, and the like, will rise with it. That has been the experience throughout the ages in all economies. Not to do that is to consign those nations to continuing poverty, and everyone, effectively, is the loser. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003ESo without hesitation ACT certainly supports this bill. We acknowledge its shortcomings, such as the lack of a proper breakthrough in services; I understand that the Thais have agreed only to initiate negotiations in 3 years\u2019 time. I am constantly confused by the Labour Government\u2019s race-based laws, if you like. Here we have it again, with favourable treatment for M\u0101ori. That should not be necessary. All New Zealanders should stand alone. Ethnicity has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Of course, we know that this Labour Government did a similar thing when M\u0101ori corporations were given a lower taxation rate. We are actually glad they have a lower tax rate, but we would like everyone to have a lower tax rate. We are not against M\u0101ori corporations having a tax rate of 19c in the dollar; we believe everyone should have a lower tax rate, and there should not be differentiation based on race. To put that into an international trade agreement, as we have here, is certainly, in the eyes of ACT party members, a very, very strange thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EAnother good area concerns timber. Although we might be affected by clothing, carpets, and textiles, Thailand is potentially a very significant market for New Zealand\u2019s timber, particularly sawn timber and other products. I understand that we face some very high tariffs there of 20 to 30 percent, or thereabouts. The Minister could perhaps clarify that. This agreement, and the conditions the bill creates, will certainly be a major breakthrough and favoured by many sectors of the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I reiterate that the ACT party will support the bill. We think that it is a quite small step in trade liberalisation, but all such steps are supported by the ACT party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022bca8ae6af60a4d779704312f3cfd4421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bca8ae6af60a4d779704312f3cfd4421\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, as the chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee I acknowledge the constructive way in which the committee\u2019s members\u2014although it may not have been all that obvious from the debate this afternoon\u2014participated in the discussions in the committee, both on the national interest analysis of the agreement and on this bill. I also acknowledge the support and advice we received from the officials who advised the committee throughout that process. That advice was most appreciated. It led, I think, to a constructive understanding of the issues, and to a report on both the national interest analysis and the bill, which is balanced and reasonable in the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe starting point I want to take with regard to this legislation is the picking up of some of the points, ironically, from the previous speaker. In today\u2019s international environment, multilateralism is clearly an opportunity and an option we wish to pursue. But the glacial pace of international trade reform and some of the political difficulties associated with that have led increasingly to nations seeking bilateral agreements, particularly within their regional sphere of influence. I think that that is part of a national self-interest, and it is no coincidence that in recent years, under Governments led by both Labour and National, New Zealand has sought to develop closer economic partnership arrangements with Singapore, China, the ASEAN states, and the countries in the Pacific Three Closer Economic Partnership agreement, the Thailand agreement, and so on. That is part of our way of ensuring not only the spread of international free trade and the opportunity that goes with that but also the greatest possible opportunity for the people of New Zealand, for our manufacturers and our exporters, to have the chance to sell their wares in other markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOne of the lessons we have learnt over many, many years as fortress mentalities and nation States have broken down and as national boundaries have evaporated, is that to get the advantage of a deal for us we have to be prepared to make a deal with someone else. That is really at the heart of these types of free-trade agreements. There will be situations where we might quibble about whether the advantage to us is as pure and neat as we might wish, but in reality it will always be a compromise\u2014put crudely, what we can get away with and how little we have to give up in order to get away with it. That is the tension inherent in all these negotiations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has to remember a few things, as well. We are a very small country, isolated, and at the end of the world\u2019s trade routes. We will be more price-takers than price-makers. Although we have some natural advantages, we have some huge disadvantages that we can do very little about. Consequently, in all these negotiations, from the time that Ministers of overseas trade\u2014from Jack Marshall onwards\u2014made their annual trudge to Europe over dairy and sheep meat access in the lead-up to the British entry to the European Economic Community right through to the present, the New Zealand position has always been to ask how we can advance that New Zealand sense of self-interest; how we make sure that in the global scene the New Zealand case has some recognition. I think that tribute must be paid, without exception, to our trade Ministers over the years for their patience, for their endurance and, on the whole, for the success they have achieved on behalf of our country, in terms of furthering the opportunity for \u201CNew Zealand Incorporated\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe world changed vastly when the Europeans decided in the 1950s\u2014and I pick up the point about peace and harmony made by Mr Shirley\u2014that their future would be secured if they stopped fighting each other and started trading with each other. The flow-on effect of that meant that that cosy situation we once enjoyed\u2014where it was a simple exercise of growing the lambs, shearing the wool, putting the meat produce into muslin cloth, refrigerating it on a ship to Britain, and getting the cheque back sometime later\u2014had gone forever. We had to become more dynamic; we had to become more innovative. The whole march of progress towards free-trade agreements that this country has entered into from CER onwards has really been about securing opportunity and a future for this country. Therefore, I get very angry with those who start to take a myopic view, which says on the one hand: \u201CLet\u2019s bring back Fortress New Zealand. Let\u2019s throw out the barriers and pretend that the rest of the world doesn\u2019t exist.\u201D, and on the other hand: \u201CLet\u2019s be so preoccupied about the conditions in other countries that we forget about the opportunities in our own country.\u201D That is at the heart of this agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill is actually a very narrow one. It deals with the implementation of some of the tariff provisions related to this particular agreement. It has an unusual feature in Part 2, but, as we were advised at the select committee, that has occurred as much because of the insistence of the Thais in putting something similar into the agreement at their end as because of the result of New Zealand pressure. There are some useful steps in that, and it is fair to report that after committee members had teased out those issues with the officials, we were satisfied that those provisions not only were consistent with out GATT obligations but also were likely to deliver \u201Creal benefits to many New Zealand industries and will open up opportunities for New Zealand to develop the trading relationship with Thailand to its full potential\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E That is the heart of this issue. That is what this bill is about. It is what this agreement is about, and it is what the whole history, in recent years, of trying to develop closer economic partnerships with other nations in our part of the world has been about. As I have said, I applaud the initiative and the energy of successive trade Ministers in bringing that about. I am pleased to say on behalf of United Future that, as a consequence of those measures, we support this legislation enthusiastically and wholeheartedly, and we support the process that is seeing opportunity brought to New Zealanders because of a willingness on a bipartisan and, increasingly, a multipartisan basis to embrace the notion of free trade and the notion of these types of partnership arrangements with the countries with which we have the closest contact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00223c2f9fc7d0c34447acdca068b93b965f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c2f9fc7d0c34447acdca068b93b965f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Communications):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to thank the member who has just resumed his seat, and to acknowledge the previous speaker, the Hon Ken Shirley, for what I thought was a useful intervention, as well. The Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill is a fairly technical bill that reads into law the changes to the tariffs schedule brought about by the New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership Agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe debate is an opportunity to note the high level of bipartisan support for this type of trade agreement, which is relatively widely held in this House\u2014perhaps, for the listeners, unusually so. There is broad consensus in the House that multilateral trade reform is always the \u201Cfirst, best\u201D option when one is a small, remote country reliant upon good, transparent rules regarding international trade law for one\u2019s prosperity. Successive Governments have done their best to further that agenda, with success that indicates that New Zealand\u2019s diplomatic service and trade diplomats, in particular, punch above their weight. It is also recognised that in these difficult days it takes some time to bring fruition to a multilateral agreement. For that reason, complementary regional and bilateral agreements have a role to play, of which this is one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI would like to address the objection brought about by the Green Party, because it is a fundamental one in any debate on international trade. It is answered by the theory of comparative advantage\u2014that is, even if a country is the weaker player in every industry, it is still better off by trading so that it exports what it is relatively good at producing and imports what it is relatively poor at producing. I find myself in strong agreement with Ken Shirley on the point that it is obscene that various developed countries\u2014and probably the European Union is the most notable\u2014protect themselves from low-cost imports from the Third World. The benefit to those protectionist countries is far greater than the benefit from the aid that flows south to the developing world. That is a sad truth, and it is one that successive New Zealand Governments have worked to overcome. So that is all, I think, relatively bipartisan across this House, and I acknowledge the work that the former Minister for International Trade, Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, has also done. That work was carried on in great spirit by the Hon Jim Sutton, and it was recognised by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut there are some differences between the two sides of this House. There is a tendency on the right to believe that simple market opening will deliver the kinds of gains that New Zealand needs to be a prosperous economy in the 21st century. On that point, this side differs. We say that market opening is a necessary condition but it is not a sufficient condition. It must be balanced by active development of the capability of our exporters to deliver the goods\u2014in other words, to drive through the opening that has been created, and to form the kinds of partnerships with our overseas partners that will derive value back to New Zealand. That is a new agenda. It is required that we have the statistical capability to measure it, that the national interest analysis follows it, and that we have the support through New Zealand Trade and Enterprise and others to implement it. This debate is about reading into law the tariff preferences created by this agreement. This is a good bill and I urge its adoption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00220b2d2b67e32748b08bb595f55fdae506\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b2d2b67e32748b08bb595f55fdae506\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I am just getting over a dose of, if not the flu, certainly a heavy cold, but one of the things we can smell is the stench of the dying, decaying Labour Government, can we not? One can smell it in the House. I went through it in 1999, when it happened with the National Government. People could smell the decay around us. Well, it has been transplanted across to the Government members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ad17675c754ccf9e77ba2095c134e1\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s that Don Brash\u2014has he gone for his afternoon sleep?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65962808954443ea5f6a212beaf78ee\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The member who just resumed his seat is an absolute example of that\u2014along with the Minister of Education, whom I will talk about shortly in the context of this bill. He told us that he would fix all those things about having special preference for M\u0101ori, and what has he done? He has done absolutely nothing. He told the country that he would fix it up. He said: \u201CWe\u2019ll fix it. We\u2019ll make sure it\u2019s all even and all fair, and that there\u2019s no preference given.\u201D What do we have in this agreement? We have special preference for M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d95cf56f2cb416690ec99d5c5e56728\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ae28d4ad0a486a95ff13fa31ccc308\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Minister says \u201CNo\u201D. I will quote him shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05ef9a78b4349268bbdd9fa923c99c6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aff0a499a5fa4aa5a7c0694a7288d0fc\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I will. Let me just read something out: \u201CIt concerns me that article 15.8 reserves the right for New Zealand to adopt measures it \u2018deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to Maori \u2026\u2019.\u201D It is in the agreement. The Minister should go and look. The Minister who has the race relations portfolio does not even know that that is in there. How disgraceful is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I want to talk about the positive sides to this agreement, because there are some, and I do want to congratulate the Minister for Trade Negotiations on making at least some gains. He is to be commended for that, as are, as has been said in this House, previous Ministers who have done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af95bdf1cd844349fece4e178c0ff80\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re too kind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224632377061ca4a289d3dd4462fac41cf\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not think I could ever be said to be too kind, but at least I am a reasonable person who will acknowledge that at least this agreement is a step forward. It is good to have trade agreements; there is no question about that. The National Party supports that concept absolutely, and, of course, it supports this agreement, apart from the fact that we have concerns about some parts of it. It is worth noting that currently only 4 percent of the goods that we export to Thailand are duty-free, and on 1 July, after this agreement takes effect, 52 percent will be duty-free immediately. That is of huge value to our industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe problem is that some of the qualifications in the agreement cause us concern. The first thing is the qualification that goods be free of chemicals, which the Minister actually referred to in his address. That is a worry because growers in New Zealand will have to certify\u2014we assume that this will happen; negotiations are still going on\u2014that the goods being exported are free of chemicals. There is nothing wrong with doing that, other than that the cost of gaining the certification is quite likely to be more than the cost of the tariffs that are currently imposed. So the growers themselves may not actually end up receiving any financial benefit out of this agreement, at all. We will wait and see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBut the second thing that worries me about this particular part of the agreement is that it has to be negotiated. Regarding the cost of negotiating and the time delays\u2014although the Minister has tried to assure the House that it will happen rather rapidly\u2014I have to say that the track record is not flash. If we look, for example, at the negotiations between New Zealand and Australia around apples, we see that they certainly have not been rapid, at all. Indeed, in the last 6 years there has been no progress at all with regard to that matter. All that has happened is recently the Minister finally decided that we will refer the dispute between Australia and New Zealand over apples to the Committee on Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures for discussions. Well, what does that mean? Absolutely nothing! Why does the Government not take the bull by the horns, as National did on lamb tariffs when we were in Government, and take the matter to the World Trade Organization to get it sorted out? The disputes process is there; let us just get it done. It worries me that if that is the track record of this Government in regard to trying to settle disputes, what will happen when we are in the middle of negotiations on issues that this bill provides? I suggest that there will be delays and complications, and, as a consequence, there will be significant costs to our growers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E One of the previous speakers from Labour talked about its track record in negotiating trade agreements. Well, the only one that Labour has had any involvement with, as a Government, apart from this one, was the Singapore agreement, and all it had to do was sign the final piece of paper. To be fair, the previous member who spoke acknowledged the work that had been done by my colleague Lockwood Smith in regard to the Singapore agreement. That work was all done under the National Government. Yet a previous Labour speaker\u2014I think it was the member for Waimakariri, whose name I cannot recall at the moment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022854f2f7570534b0aa36f93137bcc1dfc\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Cosgrove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928c4090b6ec4e218d05363113bb3cf2\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Clayton Cosgrove claimed that Labour had a fine track record. Well, actually, when one looks at it, one sees that the equivalent of Labour\u2019s track record is a flat tyre on a vehicle that is broken down. That is about as good as it gets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThis agreement is Labour\u2019s first attempt, and there are lots of qualifications in it. I say to the House that we need to be concerned about some of the conditions in this legislation that may well put different sorts of tariffs on our exporters. It is unfortunate that we have any qualifications at all. At least, the Singapore agreement was clean, done, and end of story; it was just a straight trade agreement. CER was the same sort of thing. This agreement is a case of \u201CYes, we can do it, but with all sorts of ifs and buts.\u201D, and that is most unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the one part that does concern me, as I said I would, and I hope the Minister in charge is listening. It is the issue that appears in article 15.8. Why in the world do we have to have in a trade agreement an article that states that New Zealand reserves the right to adopt \u201Cmeasures it deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori \u2026 including in fulfilment of its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D? I ask Parliament why that clause is in an international trade agreement. It mystifies me. I asked that question during the first reading and no one was able to give me a reasonable answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI wondered whether it is because some of the fruit that M\u0101ori grow is different, but I do not think it is. I do not think the apples that M\u0101ori grow are different colours from other apples. I would not have thought so. I am sure the apples are the same varieties and the same colours as the apples that non-M\u0101ori grow and export to Thailand. I am sure they are the same, so why would M\u0101ori need preferential treatment? I cannot think why. Maybe the cherries are different. Maybe the blush is a different colour or something. I do not know why. But it really mystifies me as to what the advantages are to this country and to the M\u0101ori people in having that clause in the legislation. The Thai people, I am sure, do not know what the Treaty of Waitangi is. I doubt whether they have ever heard of it, actually\u2014well, one or two of them will have heard of it now because it is in this agreement. It is a real mystery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThis Government, 12 months or so ago, gave this country an absolute assurance that there would be no more preferential treatment, and that all those kinds of clauses would go. Trevor Mallard, the Minister in charge of that, said: \u201CForget about it. You don\u2019t need to worry about it. This Government\u2019s got it under control.\u201D, and here we are, signing an international agreement that puts it back under the spotlight. Quite honestly, the Government needs to explain\u2014and I hope the Minister in charge of the bill will do so during the course of the Committee stage\u2014why that particular provision has to be in this sort of legislation and in these sorts of agreements. It actually does this country no good, in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ENational members look forward to the debate in the Committee stage, and we will explore some of these clauses more closely during that debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00223f8bbb55a03145878b92f06cfab3d3ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f8bbb55a03145878b92f06cfab3d3ae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d8de907e46b4bd9a394b8b4e7985f3f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 96\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6df3daaefc548429f7a78416ccc61d0\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u00226545d02fbce1484ea4fa37797a00e613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226545d02fbce1484ea4fa37797a00e613\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002206515dd90264445d8e636b1e5c2660c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221df1daa42e1e46b2910337d81c844fcd\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e2064f073a34b0ebd028f402cb6f59a\u0022\u003EPart 1  Implementation of preferential tariffs under New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership Agreement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002222c4d42827b14fa28678fd827c56afb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222c4d42827b14fa28678fd827c56afb0\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill is the part that actually implements the negotiated preferential tariff schedule, if one likes, for Thai products coming into New Zealand. It is an essential part of this bill. Our law does have to be amended to enable that negotiated tariff agreement to be put into it. So I make it very clear that National is totally supportive of Part 1, because it is absolutely essential to implement that agreement. Having said that\u2014that we are totally supportive of it\u2014I think it is important we understand the pluses and minuses that Part 1 will make available for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI will deal with the pluses first. Although this bill does not cover exactly what happens for our products in Thailand\u2014a similar piece of legislation to this will do that in Thailand\u2014it is important to realise that the laws that implement negotiated tariffs have a big impact. For example, for New Zealand exporters to Thailand, 52 percent of our exports will be duty-free as soon as this agreement is given effect to, and as soon as legislation similar to Part 1 of this bill is passed in Thailand, compared with 4 percent now. That is a big plus. That is why National is so supportive of trade liberalising legislation. There are big pluses like that for our horticultural exporters, most of whom face 30 to 40 percent tariffs\u2014people such as kiwifruit exporters. Those tariffs will be eliminated, and that is very important for our industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI would ask the Minister\u2014if he could explain this under this part, because I cannot see where else in the bill we can really address this\u2014to explain a little more about where we have got to in terms of making sure our horticultural exporters do get meaningful access to Thailand. The reason that has become an issue is that Thailand brought in a new provision reasonably recently that requires people to certify that horticultural products are free of, I think, three particular chemicals. The costs of the testing for those chemicals and the costs of the certification for that may well match, if not exceed, the tariff reductions that are being achieved. I realise that I am running a bit of a risk in asking this question, but I see this part as being the only part where the Minister could elaborate on that matter a little further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Minister said in his second reading speech\u2014if I heard him correctly\u2014that Thailand had agreed to defer those requirements for a period of time. I would appreciate the Minister making it more clear exactly how long that period is, and exactly what has been done to make sure a process is put in place to have those requirements ultimately removed. Obviously, this agreement, and the legislation we seek to pass right now, is really nullified in large part if those kinds of non-tariff barriers\u2014I mean, it is exactly that kind of non-tariff barrier that has kept our apples out of Australia. We want to make sure that, as we pass this legislation, we will not be caught up in similar non-tariff barriers in Thailand. It would be helpful if the Minister could just enlarge upon what he said during the second reading phase. I accept that you, Mr Chairman, could rule that he cannot do that, but I do not see another part of this bill where he could do so. I think the Minister\u2019s advice on that issue would be very helpful for members, in understanding the full implications of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI have already pointed out that although we totally support Part 1, I do have a concern that the schedule of tariff reductions that we will be implementing with this legislation takes New Zealand beyond its 2010 commitment under APEC. That is a huge shame. I disagree with Peter Dunne. Peter Dunne said, in his second reading speech, that in these trade negotiations we should try to get away with what we can and find out what we have to give up in order to get what we want. It is not like that. I have done a lot of trade negotiation work. In fact, we ought to be saying that we do not want to have any of that stuff around the New Zealand economy, anyhow. It is all bad for us. Unilateral trade tariff elimination makes a lot of sense. In a lot of the trade tariff negotiation work I have done in the past, a lot of effort has gone into helping other countries to understand how maintaining those barriers is actually an impediment to their own economies. They actually suffer from maintaining those barriers. I do not think that old-style trading is a great way to proceed in negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002261c3f1856087404e9d6c40eeebef40fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c3f1856087404e9d6c40eeebef40fe\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I follow my colleague Lockwood Smith, and I am sure that Mr Jones will get a call very shortly. I raise this issue in relation to Part 1, and again, it is in a similar vein to that stated by my colleague Lockwood Smith, and relates to the wording that appears in the agreement. I assume that the wording applies for goods both coming in and going out of New Zealand, in regard to the issue under article 15.8 of the agreement relating to the Treaty of Waitangi, where it states it deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori, including the fulfilment of its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E I draw the Committee\u2019s attention to a speech made by Mr Trevor Mallard, as Coordinating Minister, Race Relations, at Victoria University in July last year when he said, as the Minister in that capacity, that M\u0101ori have no extra rights or privileges under the treaty or in the policy of the New Zealand Government. I ask the Minister in the chair, Mr Sutton, whether he can explain that statement made by the Minister in charge of race relations, Mr Mallard. He and Prime Minister gave an assurance to this House that there would be one law for all. Yet the Minister might explain why that clause is in the agreement that gives favourable treatment to M\u0101ori, including the fulfilment of obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi, whatever that means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EPerhaps the Minister might like to explain to the Parliament how it actually affects goods coming from Thailand into New Zealand. I would be very pleased if the Minister could explain to us what sort of impact that wording in the agreement would have on someone from Thailand who is making some Thai product and then runs up against the favourable treatment for M\u0101ori when it comes across our wharves. I wonder what impact that will have on that person\u2019s ability to be able to trade fairly and freely with all New Zealanders. The Minister might like to take a call to explain why he and the Government\u2014Helen Clark, Trevor Mallard, and Jim Sutton\u2014believe that it is important that that sort of clause is in an international trade agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EFor the life of me I fail to see that it will make one iota of difference between us trading with Thailand, and Thailand trading with us. I would be very pleased if the Minister could take a call to perhaps enlighten us, and in particular enlighten me so that I can explain to the people of Northland why the Government felt that in this particular case it had to abandon its policy of one law for all\u2014if it has that policy, and actually I do not think that it does\u2014and put that in this agreement. It will be interesting to know why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EMy colleague Lockwood Smith also raised some other interesting aspects of the legislation and of the agreement. Of course, they are issues we raised in the first and second readings and I do hope that the Minister will take a call to explain to us those issues that will be of worry around the matter of negotiation\u2014particularly the issue, as my colleague Lockwood Smith has said, around the matter of chemicals, etc. It is very important that we have a good understanding in this debate, so that when we are asked by the rural sector that we represent we can explain to it what impact that will have. I am concerned, as my colleagues are, that it may well impinge on its ability to have a full and free trade between Thailand and New Zealand. We certainly do not want that to be an outcome of this agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022c21dcd07a5384056a15e6fddbaa168d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c21dcd07a5384056a15e6fddbaa168d7\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker from the National Party, John Carter, raised the question that I had raised earlier about the insertion of the Treaty of Waitangi into this legislation. It was almost a speech, I thought, in opposition to the bill, and I support everything he said. For the reasons given by him, New Zealand First is opposing the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENext week the Rt Hon Winston Peters, on behalf of New Zealand First, will be making a speech about matters relating to the Treaty of Waitangi, and I do not intend to take that aspect any further today at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe point has been raised about horticulture. In the New Zealand First minority report attached to the partnership agreement we made the point that we were concerned about the submission from the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority, which indicated to the committee, and I quote: \u201CHowever, new residue testing requirements proposed by the Thai government have the potential to significantly reduce the benefits from the agreement. These requirements are viewed by both the New Zealand export industry and Thai fruit and vegetable importers as a non-tariff trade barrier focused on reducing imports of Chinese fruit and vegetables. We are working with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade to address this issue \u2026\u201D. That is the Horticulture Export Authority\u2019s submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI note that horticultural exports do not feature prominently in our exports to Thailand. The list I mentioned earlier on of New Zealand\u2019s exports to Thailand, which lists 20 products, does not show horticultural exports, at all. At the No. 20 level are exports worth $3 million, so I assume that any horticultural exports must be worth less than that. But, clearly, they are in grave danger because of the trade agreement entered into between Thailand and China. In terms of that, of course, Chinese goods are allowed into Thailand. Since October 2003, Thailand has provided duty-free access for horticultural items from China, as part of an early harvest package, ahead of their full free-trade agreement negotiations. It seems that the Thai people are willing to enter into an agreement on the one hand, but on the other hand start to put up barriers, even with the Chinese. We are going to be caught up in their barrier with the Chinese; it, obviously, will affect us, as well. It makes one question the worth of an agreement of that kind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMuch has been made of the reduction in tariffs, but we must look at what the existing tariffs are. I gave a couple of examples in New Zealand First\u2019s minority report. Infant milk food formula was worth $34.9 million in 2003; the tariff goes down from 5 percent to zero, not from 17 and 18 percent, as suggested elsewhere. Wood pulp was worth $5 million; the change in tariff is from 1 percent to zero, so that is not much of a drop. For what is a fairly small market, as Dr Lockwood Smith said, this is a poor-quality agreement overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe services area is the one of vital importance to New Zealand, and we know that it has not been allowed to be implemented. But, the other way round, it does seem to be working. I ask the Minister to explain why so many specialist Thai chefs and traditional Thai massage therapists are being allowed into New Zealand. Do they ever go back to Thailand? Why must we keep on bringing them in? What happens to them? How long do they stay here? Can we not at some stage train New Zealanders to cook Thai food? Indeed, I had a very nice Thai chicken curry in a place just outside the building here at lunchtime. Surely, we can cope with making a nice Thai meal, after all these years. Why should New Zealanders lose out on jobs? Why must we always have Thai chefs? What is the need for traditional Thai massage therapy in New Zealand? Were we not able to survive and cope without traditional Thai massage therapy? Why do we need these types of people in New Zealand? Why not train New Zealanders so that they can get these jobs, rather than our bringing in Thai people all the time to do them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ECan a Labour Minister explain why the clothing, footwear, and carpet sectors, and whiteware, plasterboard, steel, and certain textiles must be placed at risk, because of an agreement entered into by him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis is a sad day for the workers of New Zealand, and I am wearing my red tie just for them today. Obviously, no Labour Party member has worn a tie of that colour today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd5458ad4dce42d1bcf5b985c655ba55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd5458ad4dce42d1bcf5b985c655ba55\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E A number of questions have been raised. I will deal first with the question raised by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, which was also raised, I think, by Dail Jones. Those members asked where we have got to on the issue of the Thai sanitary and phytosanitary provisions announced recently. Even though the issue is not really, strictly speaking, dealt with in this bill, the question was not ruled out of order before, so I guess the answer will not be, either. I can say that the proposed new Thai regulation, known as regulation 11, would, if fully implemented, impose a new testing and certification regime on a range of 16 food products, including many of interest to New Zealand. In respect of implementation, it will apply to all countries exporting to Thailand. Implementation is now scheduled for 30 June. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003ESince the proposed regulation was first notified late last year, New Zealand has expressed its opposition to it in a number of ways directly to the Thai authorities in Bangkok, and in the World Trade Organization Committee on Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures in Geneva. During the week of the signing of the Thai closer economic partnership in Bangkok, which was on 18 April, there were meetings between myself and the Thai Minister of agriculture, and one also with the Thai Minister of Commerce, and a meeting between the respective Prime Ministers. That has resulted in an undertaking from both Thai Ministers to work with New Zealand towards recognition of New Zealand\u2019s systems as being equivalent to Thai systems for the application of regulation 11\u2014in other words, for Thailand to accept our inspection and certification of goods exported from New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThere is, I must say, preferential access for New Zealand fruit and vegetables into Thailand, and that is a special benefit for New Zealand under the closer economic partnership. New Zealand is therefore in a position of advantage ahead of other suppliers to Thailand, whatever the outcome on the proposed new testing regulation. China, which already has a closer economic partnership with Thailand, has a similar advantage to New Zealand, but is in the Northern Hemisphere, so it does not have the out-of-season advantage that we have. I think the fact that our officials now have a meeting with the Thai authorities on 23 June demonstrates that the bilateral sanitary and phytosanitary committee that has been set up for this sort of eventuality looks as though it will be able to do its job. So we are hoping for a happy outcome in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EI would like to thank Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith for his support for Part 1 and for the tariff reductions. However, I cannot support his criticism of the Hon Peter Dunne\u2019s remark about the negotiating realities\u2014that agreements like this always involve compromise. I think there can be no doubt that that is so. The National Party spokesman should understand negotiating realities. After all, he had the experience\u2014in fact, this was the sole success of his 9 years, I think, as trade Minister\u2014of agreeing to commence negotiations with Singapore, with whom New Zealand already had duty-free access for all goods, except beer. Now, despite that, those negotiations were stuck. They were going nowhere at the change of Government. We have got there. I suppose Dr Smith would consider the highlight of his trade negotiations career to be his attendance at the Seattle conference, which is a bit like a British general believing the highlight of his military career was attendance at the Dunkirk evacuation. It was really, however one dresses it up retrospectively, an unmistakable defeat and failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EJohn Carter raised the issue of the Treaty of Waitangi clause. That clause preserves the right of any Government of New Zealand to implement policies of its choice in relation to M\u0101ori and to fulfil treaty obligations without being obliged to offer equivalent treatment to overseas entities, provided that, of course, the New Zealand policies do not act as a disguised restriction on trade or investment. To leave that clause out, as National advocates, would be to commit New Zealand taxpayers to provide the same benefits to any overseas company investing in New Zealand that it may provide by way of assistance to M\u0101ori, iwi, hap\u016B, or wh\u0101nau. So all I can say is that National so hates the indigenous people of New Zealand that it would condemn New Zealand taxpayers to paying extra taxes forever to overseas investors, in order to leave any reference to the Treaty of Waitangi out of any future trade agreement. That is notwithstanding the fact that National put an almost identical clause in trade agreements\u2014into the General Agreement on Trade in Services, which is part of the World Trade Organization treaties. It was an almost identical clause, which, of course, National cribbed from one of the many countries that also have clauses to protect the interests of their indigenous people in such treaties. So I do not think we need to worry about that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe member Dail Jones asked why we are allowing trained Thai chefs and massage therapists to come to New Zealand to ply their professions. Well, I say to him that, firstly, a good Thai therapeutic massage probably would not do him any harm, and a good Thai meal, cooked by a professionally trained Thai chef, would not do any of us any harm. This agreement introduces to Thailand, through its support of those iconic Thai crafts, the concept of trade liberalisation in services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37323ee593e43ae8dc5cc0e73253c7f\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Who wrote that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d42f2c7d62b840c2902b2fbcbf796a21\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can reassure the member that if any New Zealanders want to train as Thai massage therapists or as Thai chefs, then I am sure that can be arranged. They can go to Thailand and sign up for a course, although those courses are not to be taken lightly. The member would need to commit himself to extended concentration and hard work, which is probably something he has not had to do very much of in recent years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EI think that that addresses the serious questions that have been raised so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1ed0a42e8e94e6994ff22865bab92be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1ed0a42e8e94e6994ff22865bab92be\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party has an amendment to clause 4, to insert after the words \u201Cbeing the produce or manufacture of Thailand\u201D, the words \u201Cwhose product processing complies with core International Labour Organisation Conventions\u201D. If we look at the treaty upon which this bill is based and that it is supposed to implement, we see references to ILO conventions. Associated with the treaty are arrangements between Thailand and New Zealand on labour and the environment. The problem is that although the words that both New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand are to sign up to are very nice, there is no actual implementation, other than that if we have a disagreement we have another talk, then another committee, then another talk. There is no actual implementation, which is why the statement from the Council of Trade Unions that I mentioned before stated that it was not an enforceable or meaningful process to address breaches of core ILO conventions. I think that is the case, and it is the reason why we should put in the bill that we reserve the right, if the tariff is to be lifted, or if a preferential tariff is to be applied, that Thailand at least has to meet those core ILO standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere is a problem. Thailand signed up to the ILO Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work, and its follow-up, and it is true that there is at least one ILO convention that Thailand has signed up to\u2014the ILO Convention 138 Concerning the Minimum Age for Admission to Employment, relating to not using child labour, but in wandering around the sweatshops in Bangkok one will see that people do not exactly adhere to that convention. There is quite a bit of corruption in Thailand, and Government officials do not actually implement ILO conventions. Then there are some other ILO conventions, like the right to collective bargaining, that I understand Thailand has not signed up to. There is a very low rate of unionisation in Thailand, partly because of that and partly because union organisers in some factories in Thailand may not last very long on the job; they are just put out of the door. Sometimes there are just what are called \u201Cdisappearances\u201D: people just disappear, and the authorities do not do much about it if one goes to them. In fact, the authorities are sometimes tied up with the people who are exploiting the workers, and they are keeping the unions out or are employing child labour. That is the reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EEven Nike, a company that has a big international reputation to protect in terms of its production of footwear, subcontracted out to an Austrian-owned firm in Bangkok to produce its shoes, but even there, union organisers were pushed from the jobs. Demonstrations took place in Thailand, and I think there was even one in New Zealand, supporting the workers. However, the workers did not really get anywhere, because in Thailand there are no real enforcement provisions for labour laws. So the least we could do is to put in our legislation the amendments such as those that the Green Party has proposed. That would at least give us control over the situation. One of the Labour members talked about the theory of comparative advantage in trade\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c118b071807e4e0ba0bca21464de286a\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4d6f4646414417b99d451f703c06261\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was David Cunliffe. He is one of the ideologues of free trade on that side of the Chamber, with the theory that somehow there is this law of comparative advantage, that there are some things people in each country are good at, that they will export nicely, and that Thailand will develop nicely as an economy because of that. But it does not take into account the reality that in Thailand the minimum wage is NZ$0.77 an hour. So it is not a question of what New Zealand workers are good at and what Thai workers are good at; New Zealand workers are quite good at textile manufacture, but they are out-competed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022f826964c2cb24d58afa30598665c8be2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f826964c2cb24d58afa30598665c8be2\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill. But, for those who have been listening to the debate, there are reservations to be entered in respect of the treaty itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI start by recording my disappointment that the Minister who has a particular responsibility for this bill, Minister Sutton, has used speaking time in this Chamber to launch petty and personal attacks on National members. In doing that, he damages his reputation in the trade area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI want to pick up two points that I think are relevant and significant in the context of the debate on this part. The first has been identified by others, and it is that in the trade treaty itself, article 15.8 reads, in part: \u201Cnothing in this Agreement shall preclude the adoption by New Zealand of measures it deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to Maori in respect of matters covered by this Agreement including in fulfilment of its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe should not, I would say, be including in trade treaties such affirmative action provisions. I am not blaming the Minister for that. He may have some responsibility, but it is a comment more directed at the trade negotiation team, who should surely have thought more carefully about the appropriateness of including such provisions. That is the first thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second comment is that an aspect of merit in the trade treaty is the dispute resolution provisions. There is a detailed code, broadly patterned on what we saw in the New Zealand - Singapore agreement. It stands in very marked contrast to what is in our Australia and New Zealand Closer Economic Relations Trade Agreement, where the only obligation is an obligation of \u201Cconsultation\u201D. As others have pointed out, in a wider context, we have running-sore disputes with Australia that remain unresolved. The apples dispute is the classic illustration of that, going right back to 1922, I think, when it started. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is also appropriate to reflect on the incredible acceleration in the world trade community of the growth in bilateral and regional treaties. As I understand it, a count by the OECD\u2019s trade directorate, quite recently, identified 142 bilateral and regional agreements, a third of them concluded in the past 3 years. At the point that the count was done, another seven awaited ratification, and the OECD indicated that another 50 were planned, of which more than 30 involved countries in Asia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo we have these regional initiatives going on, these World Trade Organization initiatives, and they are buttressed by bilateral initiatives. The Minister has made specific comment on this. I note that he said in a speech to the Singapore Institute of Policy Studies on 27 November 2001: \u201CThe WTO provides the broad framework of rules for international trade and a forum for pursuing trade liberalisation at a global level. But high-quality CEPs deepen economic interaction. When they are based, as New Zealand\u2019s are, on the multilateral framework, they can also provide guidance on the direction in which the multilateral rules should evolve.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWell, the argument is\u2014and National has advanced this argument\u2014that this is not, for reasons we have indicated, a high-quality closer economic partnership, more is the shame. But perhaps the hope is that with a change of Government in September, the skills that National can bring to the table with a negotiation team from the ministry will add to the depth of this agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI have spoken primarily about clause 3, and I now make a final comment on clause 4, because clause 4 provides for the preferential tariffs conferred by the agreement to be implemented for Thailand by providing for such preferential rates of duty to be included in the preferential tariff column of the tariff for application to goods produced or manufactured in Thailand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc68f7e359a246a09393d6f615a2e108\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc68f7e359a246a09393d6f615a2e108\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022318c2b58e04c4e60bf7deca22e2513e8\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: A bad hair day!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e223ecfe8b9e4c1ba3e406108b6245f5\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well at least I have not had to have a transplant, as that member has\u2014and neither am I likely to have one. The only transplant will be when that member and his colleagues are shifted out of here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c4bcb93e6714e08862fc8cf2c92bf6f\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, to this side of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efd3c489e7644f25b01f1965db15f5d1\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It will not be just to this side of the Chamber, it will be right out of the House. [Interruption] That fellow from \u014Ctaki, \u201CDeacon Humes\u201D or something, is gone. When he has been around for as long as I have, he will not have red hair at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EHowever, I will get back to the bill. I was interested in the Minister\u2019s reply when he read out the part about our obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi. I listened to his response with interest. He gave the impression, from the bits he read out, that the wording we had used was not accurate. However, I have checked, and it was absolutely accurate. It was as it was read out. The Minister said that we had to include that provision because we have a responsibility to fulfil our obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi. The first question I want the Minister in the chair, the Hon Jim Sutton, to answer is: what does that mean? What are our obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWhat worries me is that by putting in the supposed preferential treatment for M\u0101ori, it is saying that M\u0101ori are not as good as the rest of New Zealanders. I absolutely reject that. What the Minister is saying to me is that my oldest granddaughter, who has M\u0101ori blood in her, is not as good as my second grandchild who has no M\u0101ori blood in her. I reject that absolutely. They are both equal New Zealanders. They are both fine New Zealanders. When they grow up they will make a contribution to this country, not because one is M\u0101ori and one is not, but because they are New Zealanders who have the opportunity to be New Zealanders and make a contribution, regardless of their race. That is how it should be. They absolutely will get out there, and both will be proud of each other. They love each other and enjoy each other\u2019s company. They do not care what their bloodlines are, other than that they are Carters and proud of it. They are proud New Zealanders, but this Minister is saying to one of them that she is not as good as the other. I reject that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI reject that on behalf of all the M\u0101ori people in Northland whom I represent. They are just as good as the rest of the people I represent in Northland. They do not want a handout from the likes of Helen Clark and Jim Sutton. They are not interested, actually. Certainly some of them want some assistance from time to time, but they do not want someone who is condescending, and who says to them: \u201CWell, you poor person, because of your race we have to come along and give you a hand, because we are whiteys and are superior.\u201D We do not need that sort of attitude in this country, thank you very much. The people of Northland stand shoulder to shoulder, regardless of their race, and get on with their lives. All they want is a fair break. They do not want some Government telling them that part of them is lesser than the other, because it is not. I say to the Minister: take this clause out of the agreement; it is an insult. It is an insult to the M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori people of this country, and it is an insult to the people of Thailand, who do not even understand it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c154242473747dfa66798edeb66d2a9\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Hone knows all about insults!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1f93024b5b401ebba45feb4ace756a\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Members opposite can chuck brickbats, I do not care, because I know I am right. I remember when last debating this issue that that fellow over there with the red hair, whose name I cannot remember, said to me: \u201CSay that up in Northland.\u201D I challenged him to come up and have a debate. Has he been up? Not on your nelly! He knows that he would get run out. He does not even know where Northland is, but he knows he would get run out. I would take on him, or anybody, on a stage anywhere on this issue, in Northland or anywhere in New Zealand, and clean him out. Everybody in New Zealand is equal and everybody can make a contribution, and that is how it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00226c468d2e168a4d5294d6c9d8e86bea7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c468d2e168a4d5294d6c9d8e86bea7b\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022b820edf8d20a4bfdb3918e13089125e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b820edf8d20a4bfdb3918e13089125e0\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I had wanted to take a call following the contribution from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Jim Sutton, just a few minutes ago. What concerned me was that the Minister appeared to seek to misrepresent to the Committee what the Thai trade agreement stated. What he read out, in response to the challenges around the article relating to the Treaty of Waitangi, was a very selected part of that article in the agreement. I was so concerned that I sent back to my office for a copy of the agreement, because I thought that what the Minister said to the Committee must be right and that I must be wrong in what I had alleged the agreement contained. I now have a copy of the agreement right here with me, and what it states is somewhat different from what Mr Sutton read out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to quote the agreement absolutely. It concludes with this statement: \u201CNothing in this agreement shall preclude the adoption by New Zealand of measures it deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori in respect of matters covered by this agreement, including in fulfilment of its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D I think we have a right to know what on earth that means. What the Minister read out to the Committee just a few minutes ago was not that part of the article, at all. What does it mean? In relation to Part 1, does the Minister intend that on items relating to M\u0101ori business and M\u0101ori trade, the Government reserves the right to impose more favourable tariffs for M\u0101ori businesses? I think the Minister should tell the Committee exactly what that means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat are the Government\u2019s obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi in respect of trade agreements? The Minister said to the Committee a moment ago that without this clause it would have to extend to Thai business people, or to Thai businesses or investors, the same rights as any M\u0101ori person. What about any other New Zealander? Whatever is required to protect the interests of New Zealand ought to apply to all New Zealanders. That is the bit we are trying to get at. The Minister in the chair, Jim Sutton, should explain to the Committee exactly what he intends to do with this article. What he quoted to the Committee a moment ago was a very partial representation of the article. The bit we are really concerned about is the bit I read out, which is the entire second half. No words at all were left out. We want to know exactly what it means, because we do not know what this Government believes its obligations are in respect of the Treaty of Waitangi in trade matters with regard to this legislation, including Part 1. What is it that the Minister may be seeking to do with this clause in relation to Part 1? If it is not Part 1, is it Part 2? Is it that, in fact, safeguard measures will be imposed? I think the Minister should make clear exactly what is in his mind, because he agreed to this agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders have a right to know what the Government means when it says it reserves the right to accord more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori. All New Zealanders have every right to feel insulted by that. M\u0101ori have every right, because they are not inferior and do not need more favourable treatment. I know that the Minister will say National did that previously. I accept that. I say we were wrong. It is no use going back to that. I say National made a mistake in including that kind of clause in the General Agreement on Trade in Services. I absolutely accept that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e29ec4317849218c0cd1c51a7c5452\u0022\u003EHon Jim Sutton\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re wrong now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aad48db1226411292635c4567279d0e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is saying we were right then but are wrong now, I want him to explain to the Committee exactly what \u201Cmore favourable treatment\u201D he intends M\u0101ori should have, and exactly what this Government sees are its obligations under the treaty. At Victoria University in July last year, his colleague Trevor Mallard said that M\u0101ori have no extra rights or privileges under the treaty or in the policy of the New Zealand Government. Who is right\u2014Trevor Mallard, the Coordinating Minister, Race Relations, or Jim Sutton, Minister for Trade Negotiations? They cannot both be right, because this agreement reserves the right to confer more favourable treatment, but Trevor Mallard says that that is contrary to Government policy. We want to know who is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc14eea6c0a04301b028370ef55d852b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc14eea6c0a04301b028370ef55d852b\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I will deal with Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u2019s question first. The answer is that my colleague and I are both right, and he is wrong. I want to address the serious issue that Keith Locke raised on behalf of the Green Party. He wants us to pass an amendment that would force Thailand to comply with all the ILO core conventions on labour. I point out to the member that even we ourselves do not adhere to all the ILO core conventions here in New Zealand. The member is not attempting to address that. It is quite obvious that what the member is trying to do is to use the ILO conventions as a pretext for protectionism. He is just flat-out anti-trade. He does not want it allowed, unless everybody meets a completely unattainable standard of compliance with conventions that we have not even signed up to. I think the member ought to consider the situation again, and ask whether it is what he really wants. Does he want us all to be self-sufficient peasants who do not trade anything internationally? Does he seriously think New Zealanders could eat 20 times as much dairy product as we eat now, in order to keep it revolving in the economy without exporting any of it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003ERichard Worth asked whether this is a high-quality agreement. The answer is that it certainly is a high-quality agreement. It is completely comprehensive in respect of goods. All goods will go to a zero tariff either straight away or over an agreed period of years. So that puts this agreement amongst the top 1 percent of bilateral trade agreements in the world. What is more, we have a commitment to undertake a negotiation on trade in services within 3 years. Anybody who pretends to have any understanding of international trade and who does not understand why this agreement was done, instead of trying to force Thailand to negotiate now, ahead of its negotiations with much larger APEC trading partners, does not have the wit to get involved in the game himself or herself. I am absolutely astonished that any member in this House needs to have it explained to him or her why we have taken this opportunity to defend our position in the Thai market for our goods and to achieve advantage over most of Thailand\u2019s trading partners while we had the chance to do so now, rather than waiting until we could have a perfect agreement with free trade in all goods and services. I can advise the member that there would likely be a very long wait for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00222cd93835d0dc4cabbd425df451db031f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cd93835d0dc4cabbd425df451db031f\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party members keep on making the speech about the reference to the Treaty of Waitangi in this agreement, so I look forward to the National Party opposing the legislation, as New Zealand First is doing. That is clear New Zealand First policy. I am pleased the National Party is supporting New Zealand First policy, and I hope it will take that to the final conclusion and vote against the bill. I am reminded of the famous expression of the Rt Hon Winston Peters: \u201CYou can steal my horse, but you\u2019ve got to be able to ride it out of town.\u201D National Party members are trying to steal our horse, in saying that they oppose the reference to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Now they have to ride it out of town as well, by voting against the bill. Can they do that? I do not think they can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022 data-id=\u00228895b9a7d5a3431db7daa744f035ef0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228895b9a7d5a3431db7daa744f035ef0e\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022242c59e47e7d4ad9be41537f0a474e61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022242c59e47e7d4ad9be41537f0a474e61\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I am interested in the response of the Minister in the chair, Jim Sutton. He made a very fleeting response to the comments made by my colleague Lockwood Smith, by myself, and by others in reference to the issue of the treaty article in the legislation. I make one comment to Mr Dail Jones, who talked about riding horses. I suspect that it is a while since he has ridden a horse, and I doubt whether he could ride one out of town. He talks about being consistent. Well, we have already said we support trade agreements, so we will support this trade agreement. There are parts of it that we do not like\u2014one that we have referred to is article 15.8 of the treaty, and we will make sure that we keep talking about that. We want New Zealanders to know the inconsistencies that there are with this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBut I say to the member who talked about getting on a horse and then riding it out of town, that the way one does that, of course, is by becoming the Government after the next election, which we are looking to do. When we are the Government, we will take this horse, with regard to the treaty stuff, right out of town. It will be addressed at that time. We have made it very clear that those sorts of things will not appear. My colleague Lockwood Smith quite openly said that we made a mistake during the 1990s by including these sorts of clauses in agreements. [Interruption] That is right, but what the Labour Government does not like to hear is our admitting that we made a mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere is nothing wrong with that. People respect people when they stand up and say they did something but it was not right\u2014that they got it wrong and they will address it. That is the problem with this Government. It is not prepared to stand up and say that it has made a mistake. It is not prepared to stand up and say that it has got this wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe Minister, Jim Sutton, tried to say that both he and his colleague Trevor Mallard were right and that my colleague Lockwood Smith was wrong. Well, I ask the public to match this. I will read out article 15(8) of the agreement again for their edification: \u201C\u2026 measures it deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to Maori in respect of matters covered by this Agreement including in fulfilment of its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D The important part of that statement is \u201Cmore favourable treatment to Maori\u201D. Let us remember that this is the Minister Jim Sutton\u2019s agreement. At the same time, the Minister Trevor Mallard is saying that there are no extra rights or privileges under the treaty or in the policy of the New Zealand Government for M\u0101ori. So how can Mr Sutton say that both he and Mr Mallard are right, when there is absolute inconsistency between what they are talking about? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EFirst of all, they should stand up and say they have got it wrong. Secondly, they should then stand up and tell us why they are suggesting that M\u0101ori in this country need special rights and assistance. As I said, my two granddaughters\u2014one of M\u0101ori descent and one not\u2014are equal, and and are both fine New Zealanders who will make a great contribution to this country. One sure is not inferior to the other, and neither are the people of Northland and the M\u0101ori of New Zealand. They are fine New Zealanders. Certainly, like other people in this country, some amongst them need help and assistance. National will be right there to give that assistance, but we will not be condescending and we certainly will not entrap them into a welfare life that ends up binding them forever to the breast of the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWe oppose that. That is not what we intend to do, unlike this Government, which makes such silly statements that are meaningless and that no one can explain. When the Minister, Jim Sutton, gets up and says that we have to do that to honour our obligations to the Treaty of Waitangi, and when members of all the Opposition parties have asked time and time again for the Minister or anyone in the Government\u2014Prime Minister Helen Clark or Deputy Prime Minister Michael Cullen\u2014to explain what it means, they cannot do it. We do not need silly stuff in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022375bd9187e2c4c4589c4db5d6f72391f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022375bd9187e2c4c4589c4db5d6f72391f\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fd6ecf336d104080a740ea10a2b7b45a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000582\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 4 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000583\u0022\u003Eto insert in  subparagraph (i) of section 7(1)(h) after the words \u201Cbeing the produce or manufacture of Thailand\u201D, the words \u201Cwhose product processing complies with core International Labour Organisation Conventions\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed1f486ed4d74a4b8268c2da0dee8f22\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ef249b0b77c84bc1913cc8d284773e2c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 97\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002211500c2205c5456094dc4f5350169f5f\u0022\u003EPart 2  Application of transitional safeguard measures and provisional safeguard measures \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00227429723839e440bdade218e2c99c3906\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227429723839e440bdade218e2c99c3906\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill is the part that introduces a whole range of transitional safeguard measures. As I mentioned at the second reading, this is the first time that such provisions have been entered into New Zealand law in a bill like this. I would really like the Minister for Trade Negotiations to tell the Committee why he and the Government have found this necessary. It will invariably invite a whole new bureaucracy and a rush of bureaucratic procedures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet us look carefully at some of the provisions in Part 2. Let us take, for example, new section 15F(1)\u2014inserted by clause 7\u2014which enables the Minister to decide to apply a transitional safeguard measure. It states: \u201CThe Minister may decide to apply a transitional safeguard measure \u2026\u201D, which will be higher tariffs or higher duties for a certain product, when there has been an increase in the quantity of that product coming into the country, and\u2014I accept that there is an \u201Cand\u201D; that an increase in the quantity coming into the country would not be a sufficient reason on its own\u2014it could threaten to cause serious injury. I invite members to really think about that. If this trade agreement is worth the paper it is written on, it should result in much-increased trade between New Zealand and Thailand. There will be, if it works, a big increase in Thai products coming into New Zealand. Some sectors may say that a big increase in products like theirs coming here poses the threat of injury to their industry, and off we go. Those sectors will be able to apply to the chief executive of Trade and Enterprise, and there will be a whole process of initiating an investigation to establish whether there has been such an increase and whether it does pose a risk of threatening to cause serious injury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe have seen this sort of stuff at work around the world. We know that it invites action and litigation. Obviously, if, for argument\u2019s sake, manufacturers in New Zealand are producing some kind of product, and they see an increase in imports of it, we will get into trouble. The part even tries to define what \u201Clike goods\u201D are. One can seek an investigation into a transitional safeguard measure if a \u201Clike good\u201D has been imported into New Zealand in increased quantities. We can see the kind of bureaucratic process that this sort of legislation invites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has never required it before. The Minister could probably say we have not had a bilateral trade agreement with an economy quite like Thailand\u2019s before. I accept that. But why do we want to bring into our legislation this kind of provision? The Minister should be honest with the Committee. First, did New Zealand want it, or did Thailand want it? Is it, in fact, just because New Zealand buckled to what Thailand wanted that we are putting this whole bureaucratic process into our law? It is so woolly. We know that the United States has safeguard measures; its procedures invite applications for consideration of safeguard measures, and we know the problems that cause the United States Government. Do we want this kind of thing in our New Zealand law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere are other issues that I hope my colleagues will also ask the Minister about. Will the safeguard provisions in Part 2 be applied differently to M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori businesses? As our agreement with Thailand reserves the right for us to apply to treat M\u0101ori more favourably under the agreement, could we see M\u0101ori applying for transitional safeguard measures\u2014because Part 2 would enable them to apply for transitional safeguard measures\u2014that non-M\u0101ori would not get? The agreement provides for more favourable treatment for M\u0101ori. If what I am saying is not correct and not possible, the Minister should make that very clear. He should make it unequivocally clear that it would be impossible, under the safeguard provisions in Part 2, for M\u0101ori to claim, using article 15.8 of the agreement, special safeguard measures that non-M\u0101ori could not achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002246c1fa16620348c680ea9e24c16cd5de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246c1fa16620348c680ea9e24c16cd5de\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to follow up the issue my friend and colleague Lockwood Smith has drawn to the Committee\u2019s attention in regard to Part 2. In particular, the Committee needs to look at new section 15F(1), inserted by clause 7, which states: \u201CThe Minister may decide to apply a transitional safeguard measure if he or she makes a determination, as a result of an investigation by the chief executive \u2026 that goods \u2026 (b) are causing, or threatening to cause, serious injury to an industry producing a like or directly competitive good.\u201D That really needs to be given a thorough interpretation. I wonder what it means, exactly. I would be interested to hear the Minister comment on that aspect of this part, if he would be so kind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EUnder New Zealand regulations\u2014occupational safety and health, for example\u2014and the laws of the politically correct system under which we work, we now have such stringent rules that we restrict the public and our industries from doing all sorts of things, in a way that is not thought of in other countries. I wonder whether that section means that we are taking the opportunity to put up trade barriers, against the spirit of a trade agreement. Is this some sort of backyard deal that allows us to worm our way out of our obligations? If we are signing a free-trade agreement with another country, then there has to be free trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f574ea304f9e4172845ed7c305656b2f\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: What a sad speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6fc03a6cd546c196955bf33669e6e1\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That member will be sad when he is not back in Parliament after the next election, so if I were him I would not worry about being sad now. If I were that member I would be happy to be taking calls, because they will be amongst his last\u2014which will be a blessing to Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister what new section 15F(1) actually means. A free-trade agreement, on my understanding of the situation, means free trade. I know that people like Keith Locke do not agree with that. That is fair enough; he states his case. But the point is that signing up to a free-trade agreement means that we can put our goods into a country and it can put its goods into ours. We should not need barriers because of different rules and regulations within the countries, yet surely that is exactly what that section states. I think that issue is absolutely important, and I look forward to the Minister explaining to us what that section means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI want to go back to an issue I have raised already, on which the Minister has not satisfied me and certainly, I believe, will not have satisfied any of the listeners to this debate. It is the issue around the Treaty of Waitangi. Again I ask the Minister to tell the industries involved\u2014because they are the ones that are directly affected\u2014what the agreement means in referring to the fulfilment of our \u201Cobligations under the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D. What does that mean with regard to this trade agreement? I do not understand; I do not know what it means. That phrase is just parrot words unless we have some understanding of what those obligations are. I know that the Minister, like his fellow Ministers when they are asked questions, will ignore that question, which is unfortunate. But if he is going to ignore it, why was that phrase put in the agreement at all? Some bureaucrat at some stage will be asked a question about it, and he or she will then be obliged to spend hours and hours on trying to figure out what it means\u2014because the agreement states that someone will have to. It is likely that that person will get it wrong or, after doing hours of research, he or she will not be able to find the answer, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIt is a serious matter when we have legislation and treaty articles that refer to things that are not defined and that people cannot understand. Quite honestly, they end up being meaningless. Particularly in trade agreements that we arrange with other countries, we should know what absolutely every word in a treaty means, and know what impact an agreement has on our country and on the country with which we are making it. In this case, the Thai people have every right to be able to understand the phrase. In fact, it amazes me that they have not asked for an explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddb2f6adae274eac967b383312a76d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddb2f6adae274eac967b383312a76d3f\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E The member John Carter has asked why we have agreed to a bilateral transitional safeguard mechanism. I point out to him that for the mechanism to apply, increased imports must result in serious injury or threat of serious injury, which is a very significant and relatively strict test. It is not expected that there will be recourse to this provision often, if ever. It is a safety net. It was agreed reciprocally. Thailand did press for this provision, and New Zealand agreed to it in the context of an overall deal that met New Zealand\u2019s interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EI remind the member that under this agreement New Zealand attains, over an agreed period of years, completely tariff-free entry for, amongst other goods, our dairy products into the Thai market. If the member believes that the Thais would have agreed to that without putting in place this relatively modest safeguard against what a lot of Thai producers clearly fear will be an absolute torrent of New Zealand product that will destroy their market overnight, then the member is dreaming. He is dreaming of a perfect world where he is the Minister and everybody around the world agrees with him. He will have a long wait for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EOpposition members have gone on again about the Treaty of Waitangi and what that clause requires the New Zealand Government or the Thai Government to do. They have suggested that the Thai Government would be forced to give preferential access or preferential exemption to products from M\u0101ori businesses when it came to applying the safeguard measure. [Interruption] The member did indeed suggest that, and it is no good his claiming now that he did not. All I can say is that that is a ludicrous suggestion. I point out to him that the Treaty of Waitangi clause does not require the New Zealand Government to favour M\u0101ori, but it does mean that if we do something for M\u0101ori\u2014such as assisting M\u0101ori language broadcasting\u2014we do not have to do it for Thailand. Does the member want to commit the New Zealand taxpayer to pay subsidies for the production of Thai language TV broadcasting in New Zealand? Will those members say yes or no? Do they know what they are talking about? No, they do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002292ff674a3427401881cbd00d3187fec5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292ff674a3427401881cbd00d3187fec5\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I was not going to take a call, but the Minister for Trade Negotiations has provoked me now. Is the Minister really saying that this agreement will allow the M\u0101ori language to be broadcast in Thailand, that the M\u0101ori people of New Zealand will be given a great advantage in their language being broadcast there, and that is what he is aiming at? What a load of nonsense, if that is what he is saying. He actually does not know just what he is saying. That is the point of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe second point regards one being able to take action if one feels that Thai goods are flooding into New Zealand contrary to one\u2019s wishes, or vice versa with Thailand. That clause is really a lawyer\u2019s dream, because so many cases will be commenced under it. If something like that is allowed to happen, it will happen, and lawyers will just love it. Can members imagine a smaller New Zealand trader trying to compete against someone importing from overseas and wiping out that New Zealand businessman? The small New Zealand business\u2014and, remember, 97 percent of New Zealand businesses are in that small to medium sized enterprise category\u2014would not be able to compete with wealthy Thai exporters who want to destroy the New Zealand market, and to set up something for themselves in terms of getting money from overseas. That is another reason for opposing this agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe should not look at this agreement as if it is the answer to all New Zealand\u2019s worries. In the year ended December 2004, our exports to Thailand totalled $364 million. If we had to rely on that, we would not be going very far at all. However, our imports totalled $659 million. I can see this agreement being rather like the Singapore one, where the Singaporeans are doing better and better relative to New Zealand. The Thais have gone into this agreement for only one reason: they have pulled the wool over the Minister\u2019s eyes and over Helen Clark\u2019s eyes. The Thais are going to do very well out of this agreement, to the detriment of New Zealand workers and suchlike.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022963929b9872440a9aac3b4724cf2bacf\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member supporting the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c18a0bcdc3a4e97b97b02c55d219ed4\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: David Cunliffe does not care two hoots about it; he is too busy with his comparative something or other theory. However, people like Keith Locke, I must say, and New Zealand First members have their feet on the ground and are concerned about the real workers of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec1ebaadf76b4722b823e98e31103250\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec1ebaadf76b4722b823e98e31103250\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is a little step forward that the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill includes the transitional safeguard measures. Although, as the Minister for Trade Negotiations has just said, it was not the initiative of the New Zealand Government to put those in; it was the initiative of the Thai Government. Perhaps the New Zealand Government even beat them back a bit, if, as the Minister says, the Thai farmers are worried about a flood of dairy products. As I pointed out earlier, Oxfam New Zealand, in its submission on the treaty to the select committee, talked about the problems of Thai dairy farmers, and also quoted from a document of the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade that made a similar point. But surely, whether it is protecting Thai farmers against New Zealand products, or protecting New Zealand manufacturers and workers against Thai products, this is a very limited arrangement, on two levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Minister has said that the measure has to meet a very high test of serious injury to an industry. There is some good phraseology used elsewhere. A detrimental impact in relation to increased importation of goods is an \u201Cactual decline in output, sales, market share, profits, productivity, employment, and utilisation of production capacity;\u201D, or some threat to cause \u201Cserious injury to an industry producing a like or directly competitive good.\u201D It is good that the provision is there, but when one reads the fine print elsewhere, one finds that that provision lasts for only a maximum of 2 years, following the elimination of the tariff on the product concerned. So it might help New Zealand workers or Thai farmers for that little period of 2 years, but beyond that we could be in serious difficulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has three amendments to clause 7. They are of the same theme as my amendments to Part 1, which was to insert into the clauses a little bit extra on labour standards and the environment. Under clause 7, if my amendment is passed, there would be a paragraph (1)(c) in new section 15B that would include in the transitional measures products that \u201Care being produced without acceptable labour standards or in ways which detrimentally affect communities or the environment.\u201D Also, my amendment would insert subparagraphs (i) to (iii) into new section 15D(d) to bring into account \u201C(i) the extent to which the imports have been made by forced labour, child labour or women who are paid less than men for the same work; or (ii) the extent to which the imports have been made in unsafe and sub-standard working conditions; or (iii) the extent to which the imports have been made without reasonable environmental standards\u201D. My amendment to insert paragraph (1)(c) into new section 15F would take into account exclusions on items that \u201Care causing, or threatening to cause, harm to Thailand because they are being produced without acceptable labor standards or in ways which detrimentally affect communities or the environment.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThose amendments would provide a lot of protection for the rights of people in Thailand, particularly working people, in terms of labour standards, and, in the broader community, in terms of environmental effects and effects on communities. I think there is good reason to be concerned there. If members follow events in Thailand, they will see that the Government does not protect the environment very well in terms of the expansion of industry. At least, those amendments would allow New Zealand, if there is a big outcry from the Thai community and non-governmental organisations that they are not being properly protected under this agreement, to exclude the products that are producing that damaging effect on the Thai people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESo I hope members will support those amendments. They do strengthen the clause. As I said, it is good that the transitional safeguards are there, but they are very wishy-washy and weak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022 data-id=\u0022df94503729e542a2947600e9c6eece7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df94503729e542a2947600e9c6eece7b\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I have just become aware that, on the closure motion, I wrongly voted nine votes on behalf of United Future. It should have been eight. I seek leave to correct that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240b4e27dfa7c46c79e8b4123a33f795b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to correct that. Is there any objection? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00228730b4cb5414460a84b362a9f5ec182b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228730b4cb5414460a84b362a9f5ec182b\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to ask the Minister a question on something that is far from clear to me in Part 2, and express the hope that he will provide a response. We are of course talking about the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill, which National supports with reservations. Part 2 is concerned with the application of transitional safeguard measures and provisional safeguard measures. There is a brief explanation in the explanatory note of the bill as to what all this is about. The note states: \u201CThe Agreement provides for the use of bilateral transitional safeguards by both Thailand and New Zealand. These allow either party to address situations of serious injury to domestic industries caused by increased imports due to tariff reductions or removal under the Agreement by reverting to higher tariffs for a certain period.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe actual part inserts new sections into the principal Act. There are interpretation sections, and a code that involves investigative procedures: matters to be taken into account by the investigator, who is the chief executive; publication of investigation results; and provisions dealing with transitional safeguard measures and also provisional transitional safeguard measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI question the Minister about why this particular part is necessary, and why it is not possible simply to rely on the current provisions in the World Trade Organization agreements. Of course, it is the essence of the World Trade Organization regime that binding tariffs are key to the smooth flow of trade in goods, but there are exceptions, as I am sure the Minister is aware. Three of those exceptions that are well-known would be actions taken against dumping, or selling at an unfairly low price; subsidies and special countervailing duties to offset the subsidies; and\u2014the third is what we are on about here\u2014emergency measures to limit imports temporarily, designed to safeguard domestic industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe rules around safeguards in the World Trade Organization context are well known. A member may restrict imports of a product temporarily\u2014take safeguard action\u2014if its domestic industry is injured or threatened with an injury caused by a surge in imports. The injury has to be serious. Well, that is what this part is all about, also. The safeguard measures were always available under GATT\u2019s article 19. They might not have been frequently used in those days; indeed, I understand that some Governments preferred to protect their domestic industries through grey-area measures, using bilateral negotiations outside GATT\u2019s auspices. They would persuade exporting countries to restrain exports voluntarily or to agree to other means of sharing markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt also seems to be the case that what Part 2 is seeking to catch is wholly consistent with the safeguards regime in the World Trade Organization, because we are talking about import surges justifying safeguard action, and that can be either a real increase in imports\u2014an absolute increase, as it is called in the trade\u2014or an increase in the imports\u2019 share of a shrinking market, even if the import quantity has not increased. That is the so-called relative increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EAs I look through the safeguard provisions in the World Trade Organization agreement, I cannot see why the Government is getting itself involved\u2014as it is in this bill\u2014with Part 2 issues. I am not a member of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, but I do not believe that that issue was fully considered by the committee. The only comment I can see about that issue in the recommendations of the committee when it reported to Parliament is this one line: \u201CWe are advised that the inclusion of these provisions is fully consistent with our GATT obligations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022b832150644ef4184b12815ac7622fd84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b832150644ef4184b12815ac7622fd84\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I hope the Minister will answer those very learned questions from my good colleague Richard Worth, because they cover important issues. I would like to come back to the Minister\u2019s response a few minutes ago to questions put to him. I am really troubled by the rave he gave in response to the questions raised about the Treaty of Waitangi and the article about the treaty in the agreement, and how they apply to the part of the bill we are debating right now. The Minister gave the impression in that rant that that provision will somehow avoid giving to Thai people an advantage that M\u0101ori may have in New Zealand. I want to make it very clear to the Minister that that is not what this part is about, and I want to go over the words very carefully with the Minister. Article 15.8 in the agreement states: \u201C\u2026 nothing in this Agreement shall preclude the adoption by New Zealand\u201D\u2014it is nothing to do with Thailand; this is adoption by New Zealand\u2014\u201Cof measures it deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to Maori in respect of matters covered by this Agreement \u2026\u201D. So it is a matter of what New Zealand deems necessary and, clearly, the transitional provisions are covered by that agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to tell the House what he and this Government intend to do, or are contemplating doing, whereby they intend to deliver more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori that is not relative to people in businesses in Thailand but is relative to other New Zealand businesses. That is the issue, and that issue concerns New Zealanders. All New Zealand businesses should be treated in the same way under this agreement and under this legislation, but article 15.8 provides for the Government somehow to give more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori relative to non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders and non-M\u0101ori New Zealand businesses. That is what the wording states: \u201C\u2026 in respect of matters covered by this Agreement \u2026\u201D\u2014that is, trade matters. Then it goes on to state: \u201C\u2026 including in fulfilment of its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D I want the Minister to tell the Committee what bits of the Treaty of Waitangi confer more favourable treatment on M\u0101ori in trade matters relative to other New Zealanders. That article is nothing to do with people in Thailand; it covers a domestic matter. What does the Government have in mind? What will it confer on M\u0101ori that confers more favourable treatment on them relative to other New Zealanders? And where in the Treaty of Waitangi does it state that that should happen? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI understand that the articles of the Treaty of Waitangi provide for all New Zealanders to be given the same rights, so what does the Government see in the Treaty of Waitangi that may require it, in its view, to deliver more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori? This provision in this agreement means that the Government can do that\u2014it can deliver more favourable treatment for M\u0101ori relative to other New Zealanders, and not breach this agreement. Now, that is what concerns a whole lot of New Zealanders. Sure, we have done that sort of thing in the past, but I thought that the Coordinating Minister, Race Relations said that the Government\u2019s policy of doing that was finished. M\u0101ori have no extra rights, to quote Trevor Mallard in July last year, when of course that was a big issue following the \u014Crewa I Speech by National\u2019s leader, Don Brash. We know what this Labour Government is like. Its members will say anything when they come under pressure\u2014especially Trevor Mallard, who could not give a damn what he says; he will say anything. So in July last year, following Don Brash\u2019s \u014Crewa I speech, Trevor Mallard said that M\u0101ori had no extra rights or privileges under the treaty or in the policy of the New Zealand Government. Then, just a few weeks later, what do we see? The Government has put into an international treaty a provision that shows it intends to reserve the right \u201C\u2026 to accord more favourable treatment to Maori in respect of matters covered by this Agreement \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAll I want the Minister to do is to tell us what is in his mind. What kind of more favourable treatment does he have in mind that M\u0101ori need? Maybe then the people of New Zealand could understand. And what obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi make him feel that M\u0101ori somehow should be accorded more favourable treatment than non-M\u0101ori? When we read the Treaty of Waitangi we do not see where it states that M\u0101ori should be accorded more favourable treatment. That is not a big ask, I tell the Minister. I do not think that it is a big ask. What does that article mean? That is all we are after. Actually, we want to know also what the Minister means when he says he reserves the right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u002222713eda05b3439fbc6e9d24de35129e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222713eda05b3439fbc6e9d24de35129e\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292097cc3c54f4304b3a40933a7b9254a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000623\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 7 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000624\u0022\u003Eto add to subsection (1) of section 15B the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000625\u0022\u003E(c)\tare being produced without acceptable labour standards or in ways which detrimentally affect communities or the environment.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227ba920d1c60d4e2890753fb4d2e4b91b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000626\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 7 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000627\u0022\u003Eto add to paragraph (d) of section 15D after the word \u201Cobligations\u201D, the words \u201Csuch as but not limited to\u2014\u201D, and the following new subparagraphs:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000628\u0022\u003E(i)\tthe extent to which the imports have been made by forced labour, child labour or women who are paid less than men for the same work; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000629\u0022\u003E(ii)\tthe extent to which the imports have been made in unsafe and substandard working conditions; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000630\u0022\u003E(iii)\tthe extent to which the imports have been made without reasonable environmental standards.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bee83161195c4d99bc2e81deb4f935b7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000631\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 7 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000632\u0022\u003Eto add to subsection (1) of section 15F the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000633\u0022\u003E(c)\tare causing, or threatening to cause, harm to Thailand because they are being produced without acceptable labour standards or in ways which detrimentally affect communities or the environment.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f67fed37a65b45da992204c798132b9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000634\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022c46f92d383c1417480feb86491da98b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c46f92d383c1417480feb86491da98b7\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek your guidance as to how you are assessing acceptance of closure motions in this debate, because we are obviously not allowed to raise a point of order when you accept the closure. Could you give us guidance as to whether it is based simply on the time involved in the debate or on your consideration as to whether serious questions are being answered, because I think the public has a right to have questions answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAn example of the seriousness of what I am raising is that a few minutes ago my colleague Richard Worth asked, for the first time in the debate, a question about a very serious issue relating to the consideration of the World Trade Organization\u2019s provisions for safe transitional safeguards compared with those in this legislation. The Minister chose not to answer a question on a very serious issue, yet you accepted the closure motion prior to that question being answered and before the issue could be pursued by other speakers. I would appreciate your guidance. Do you give any consideration to that kind of thing, or is it purely a matter of the amount of time you consider has been spent on the debate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e608443299ac4fa6b3af7ebf7e311dee\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I assure the member that the time does not come into it. The matter is one for the Chairperson alone, and I make my judgment according to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a9f4204be6d4a6783f0908846388852\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe73a119303d481aa845902bf1eb72d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe73a119303d481aa845902bf1eb72d8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I think it is time this Parliament had some decent answers from the Minister for Trade Negotiations. As I have just raised a moment ago, you accepted the closure motion and the Minister had not given answers to serious questions. My colleague Richard Worth raised the question of why it is necessary to duplicate in a slightly different way the transitional safeguard provisions of World Trade Organization agreements. They have been used by various countries. World Trade Organization agreements supersede bilateral agreements. They apply automatically, anyhow. Why was it necessary to introduce them into our law? Even Dail Jones from New Zealand First, who is a lawyer, pointed out that the provisions in Part 2 of this bill are a lawyer\u2019s dream because of the kind of wording involved. We got no answers from the Minister on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo, Madam Chair, we want some answers out of this Government as we now debate clauses 1 and 2\u2014a general debate covering the whole bill. Madam Chair, you cannot get away with it as easily as that, because I have also asked very specific questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf8a831c644415ab899258dddc85302\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will not bring the Chairperson into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022713fd494f93e4553a4430956e564f17a\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise\u2014I did not realise that I was. But if you tell me I am\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022361cbc4a55f04c03b87c3c6558095b9c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member clearly said \u201Cyou\u201D to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f1a16ffab5e45029ddf65dd84868f9e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I appreciate that members should not be bringing you into the debate by referring to you directly as they make their contributions. On behalf of the Opposition, all I would ask is this. I have sat in this Chamber for many hours during this urgency period. A raft of members have brought you into the debate at one time or another. During the time that I have been in the Chamber, none of those members have been pulled up for that. Dr Smith is one of the most experienced members of Parliament in this Chamber, and all I would ask you\u2014[Interruption] Well, you can sigh, Madam Chairperson, but all I would ask is that the same rule is applied to all members of Parliament. Given that you have stated that matter, I will now be listening for any member bringing you into the debate, and raising points of order accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edcd74d3a88f4d31a39275f02a80ab89\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank that member for his comments. The member did bring me into the debate most inappropriately, and also contested a ruling. I would certainly warn members not to do that. I take the member\u2019s point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0ab5234e3343558201c625b13cb37e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I would appreciate your making it clear to me how I contested your ruling. I made it very clear that I could not do that\u2014that your acceptance of a closure motion was something that could not be contested. I sought your advice as to what guided your judgment, which I believe we are entitled to do, because this is a parliamentary democracy, not a dictatorship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ce9de925924383be9ccf69591bfa41\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please continue. I have given my ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e1b5b79848846d69932ad9bda809609\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me come back to the bill that we are debating. We expect some answers from the Minister, because there are important issues. I have mentioned those raised by my colleague Richard Worth in respect of Part 2, and I want the Minister to cover the issue around the Treaty of Waitangi. We know that it embarrasses the Government. We know that it is contrary to what Trevor Mallard told the people of New Zealand. We know what Trevor Mallard told the people of New Zealand after the public had made it so clear, following Don Brash\u2019s \u014Crewa I speech, that they did not like the Treaty of Waitangi being used in a way that would confer preferential treatment on M\u0101ori. The public of New Zealand made it very clear that they wanted all New Zealanders treated the same before the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to tell us where the clauses in this bill give effect to what he has agreed. He signed article 15.8, which states specifically: \u201C\u2026 nothing in this Agreement shall preclude the adoption by New Zealand of measures it deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to Maori in respect of matters covered by this Agreement \u2026\u201D, and, obviously, covered by this bill, which gives effect to the agreement. I ask the Minister what that means. So far, the Minister\u2019s explanations to this Committee have made no sense at all, because the issue is more favourable in respect of other New Zealanders. What does the Government have in mind in terms of intending to confer more favourable treatment on M\u0101ori compared with other New Zealanders? If there are issues in this agreement and in this legislation to stop Thai investors being given some advantage, that is fine. But that should apply to all New Zealanders. I want to know from the Minister, and I think New Zealanders want to know from the Minister, what that means. What does the Government have in mind, given that Trevor Mallard said that M\u0101ori have no extra rights or privileges under the treaty, or in the policy of the Government? What does that mean, when the Minister has signed an agreement, and the Government has signed an agreement, that reserves the right to implement measures they deem \u201Cnecessary to accord more favourable treatment to Maori\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think the people of New Zealand deserve a response to that\u2014the Minister\u2019s attempts so far have been more to fudge the matter than to clarify precisely what the Government has in mind, and precisely which obligation under the treaty it feels is involved here\u2014because then the matter would be put to rest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00228274ba021f334c3bb8280fb16c50fbb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228274ba021f334c3bb8280fb16c50fbb1\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E We are looking at clauses 1 and 2, and I want to comment on clause 2. On the face of it clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, states: \u201CThis Act comes into force on 1 July 2005.\u201D All New Zealanders know that Helen Clark was in Thailand some weeks ago signing this agreement with the Thai people, without any regard for the New Zealand Parliament. She took another photo opportunity on that occasion, as she loves doing, that showed her signing the agreement on behalf of New Zealand, and binding New Zealand to an agreement with Thailand. Of course, the Thai people were doing the same, not fully realising just what the protocols are in New Zealand for this type of agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhen we were in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee considering the agreement itself, we were very, very concerned. In the short space of time that was made available to us, and almost on the day in question when we were looking at it, and despite the Cabinet recommendation that 15 working-days should elapse before the select committee had to report back to Parliament and that the Government should take no action within that 15 days to bind New Zealand, and when only 13 working-days appeared to have passed\u2014despite all that, there was Helen Clark signing this agreement in Thailand in breach of all the protocols that New Zealanders expect her to honour in terms of Cabinet agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThat was just another example of the arrogance of this Labour Government. It does not care about the people of New Zealand\u2019s wishes, is not concerned about Cabinet protocols, and is not concerned about this Parliament. Its Prime Minister goes racing off and signs agreements, and binds the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe bill states that this agreement should come into effect on 1 July 2005. That is not what the people of New Zealand think. They saw Helen Clark signing the agreement, and as far as the people of New Zealand are concerned, they believe that it is already in existence\u2014otherwise, why did Helen Clark have yet another photo opportunity? She went over to Thailand, signed this agreement, and wasted the taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014or was she wasting the taxpayers\u2019 money? Because this bill states \u201C1 July 2005\u201D, yet there was Helen Clark, before 1 July 2005, signing the agreement in Thailand. Which one is it to be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EClearly there is total arrogance on the part of the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, in so far as having any regard for the people of New Zealand, and any regard for Parliament. The select committee procedure was just an absolute whitewash and a waste of time, because the Government had clearly made up its mind and signed the agreement. Even this debate in the House is an utter waste of time because the Government has made up its mind. Helen Clark has been over in Thailand and signed the agreement. We are totally being used in this Parliament and in this country for the benefit of Helen Clark and yet another photo opportunity. No wonder New Zealand First opposes this bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00222ca270994957410d9e6aac7b2795556c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ca270994957410d9e6aac7b2795556c\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party has an amendment under this part to clause 2, to extend the date when this legislation will come into force from July 2005 to July 2010. I think that the Government may actually support this amendment, and I will just explain why that is\u2014and the National Party members will be interested in this. Clearly, there is a bit of a misunderstanding in the National Party ranks about the Treaty of Waitangi and our commitment as a nation to it, and about the need for clauses in agreements and legislation referring to the Treaty of Waitangi. The National Party has referred to the article that allows more favourable treatment of M\u0101ori in respect of matters covered by this agreement\u2014that is, article 15.8 in the original treaty. In view of the misunderstanding in National\u2019s ranks, if we extend the implementation date out for 5 years and the National Party members have a bit more education and perhaps talk to a few M\u0101ori, by July 2010 they may understand things a bit better and there may be more agreement in the Committee on this bill. It may also be the case that if we extend the start date out to 2010, members on the Labour side of the Chamber may think a bit more about the implications of this bill in the meantime, and think that perhaps they should not go ahead with its basic provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAn extension to the implementation date would also give a little more time for New Zealand industries, Thai industries, and the agricultural industries to adapt. I talked earlier on about the danger to the Thais, in terms of their dairy industry. Perhaps in 5 years Thailand could, with New Zealand\u2019s assistance, make its dairy industry a bit more efficient, and there could be a win-win situation whereby our dairy products would not then undermine the Thai industry, but would be on top of Thailand\u2019s dairy industry and put dairy products into a richer society. Thailand would have grown a bit richer in those 5 years, we would be selling more dairy products, and everyone would be happy. We would not then get that rebellion from Thai farmers. So extending the start date could help us there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAlso, it may help in terms of the evolution of the international debate on free-trade agreements like this, and of people coming to understand the strengths and weaknesses in such agreements, and understanding what should be put in and what should not. At the moment, this sort of blanket free-trade agreement does undermine certain sectors in both the countries involved. It actually hurts, particularly, the poor people in both countries. In this agreement the poor people in Thailand are affected, because they are kept in poor conditions with low wage rates. We are not helping them at all, because we are not putting clauses into this agreement that will help to protect them. The working people in New Zealand\u2014those in the clothing industry, in particular\u2014will also be subject to unfair competition, because of the much lower wages in Thailand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ELockwood Smith has been asking how the Treaty of Waitangi clause will affect trade with Thailand. I think you have to look a bit beyond this bill, because he is talking about the agreement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea2db0022a34aa69f365dabb2a551cc\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt the member, but I believe he was bringing you into the debate, Madam Chairperson, and was not pulled up for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ce6d81e95f4a6180f0fdeff81f00ba\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; I apologise if I did that. I do not recall doing so. I was saying that if Lockwood Smith looks at article 15.8 in the original treaty, he will see it may apply not just to the tariffs that are contained in this bill but also to the investment provision, and also, potentially, to any subsequent agreement on services. That could relate very directly to M\u0101ori, in terms of some of their educational institutes, and the special relationships we have in terms of fishing agreements, land agreements, and things like that. There may be special provision for M\u0101ori\u2014and rightfully so, in terms of settling past grievances\u2014that means, in terms of the competitive situation, we would not allow full competition from non-M\u0101ori institutions in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022 data-id=\u00220d7154fad83c45e8a4d3d18fd5bfcd23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d7154fad83c45e8a4d3d18fd5bfcd23\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002202eaa3e9e93d43ce876be764f7ad61ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202eaa3e9e93d43ce876be764f7ad61ac\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E That is absolutely shameful, but it exemplifies what has characterised this debate through the stubborn refusal of the Minister to answer reasonable questions put to him. There is a strange phrase, for those who may be listening to this debate, that finds its way into the jargon of Parliament, and that is to talk about \u201Cstrangers in the House\u201D. Those are people who are not members of Parliament but are in the debating chamber. To the right of the Speaker\u2019s chair are six or seven high-ranking and powerful officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. They know the answers to the questions we have been asking the Minister. The Minister is determined to remain mute and not respond. He has offered three explanations, some conflicting, on one of the issues relating to the Treaty of Waitangi, but he has not dealt directly with the questions that have been asked. He has not dealt with this other issue relating to the need for Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI come to the particular part we are concerned with, and that is, the question of the commencement date for this legislation. The answer is very simple, of course: because that is the date that this particular trade treaty comes into force. It was signed in April. The plan is for it to come into force on 1 July. That is why we are in urgency. Certainly, it was a great and worthwhile\u2014and I mean that\u2014plan to embark on a bilateral trade treaty with Thailand. I think, legitimately, the public, and I hope the negotiators, saw the substantial benefits that might flow from a treaty. Those aspirations have been significantly eroded by limitations in the treaty that have been the subject of comment by others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBut I would say that this closer economic partnership marks the beginning of a new era in which New Zealand and Thailand will work together and build on their long-established relationship. I would also say that the closer economic partnership is a building block for inter-regional trade with other ASEAN countries. So it has strategic as well as economic significance. Traditionally, New Zealand\u2019s main exports to Thailand have been commodities, while Thai exports to New Zealand have been motor vehicles, air conditioning, and machinery. So New Zealanders are not really aware of the sophistication of the Thai market, and conversely, Thais have not seen New Zealand\u2019s capabilities in business innovation and cutting-edge technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI believe that Thailand and its neighbours are a key export market for New Zealand companies. Certainly, with incomes rising in Thailand, a growing middle class, economic growth being steady, and brand-conscious consumers, all looks good in the context of the long-term potential of this market. There is huge scope, for example, in areas such as cooperation in automotive components. As others have said, Thailand is the Detroit of the East. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI urge the Minister to respond to legitimate questions that National has raised in the context of this debate. Why is there a need to be evasive? Why is there a need to hesitate and not furnish answers? Why must the Minister\u2014as he has done\u2014persist in this debate with cheap and sniping attacks on National members? We deserve better than that. In this critical area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da09a74523db47ccb589f1bbe489ca76\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s one of the most expensive Ministers we have got.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e157ba2c5343428da6554a1b29d07458\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: There is nothing cheap about this Minister, an intervener says from across the way. Well, the Minister has an opportunity to show what he is made of, and I hope that he does, because we are entitled to answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd5b5f0f5971449496dd25bdab315b5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd5b5f0f5971449496dd25bdab315b5f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285c0d9a6f6e9419c901af38e55a78f21\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022738d448c911e424dbbcbdf4927d24d3a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 97\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000671\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000672\u0022\u003Eto omit the term \u201C2005\u201D, and sustitute the term \u201C2010\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022424ded643bf54cc38e714d74eb484dee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221cc003c43e724ec6a8b7ddeae82a4ef3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 97\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000673\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000674\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223092a9cddf69434fbe37b1b44bbaf901\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u002204ba56b805d343c4b68ec82a095e966e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204ba56b805d343c4b68ec82a095e966e\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill be now read a third time. The bill allows the agreement negotiated between Thailand and New Zealand for a closer economic partnership to come into force once Thailand has also completed its domestic implementation process. The agreement provides for all tariffs applying goods of New Zealand or Thai origin traded between the two countries to be either eliminated immediately or phased out over a schedule period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ad2e8aab11483da85ed554e081cca4\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: As well as providing for all tariffs applying to goods traded between the two countries to be eliminated, the agreement provides for the early commencement of negotiation to liberalise trade in services. The agreement also provides for the use of bilateral transitional safeguards by both New Zealand and Thailand. Members opposite seem to have difficulty in understanding that concept. I am not sure what it was that they could not understand, but I will just point out to them that the bilateral transitional safeguards under the closer economic partnership simply allow New Zealand to raise tariffs on Thai goods back to the level applying to imports from other countries, in the event of serious injury or threat of serious injury because of a sudden and dramatic surge in imports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe World Trade Organization global safeguards apply generally to imports from all countries, and can raise tariff rates above the World Trade Organization bound rates if a World Trade Organization safeguard is applied. I think that explains the relationship between the two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EClearly, most members who have participated in the debate, like most New Zealanders, recognise the value of freer and fairer trade, and have supported this bill accordingly. The National Party members have spent most of their debating time raging against the presence of a Treaty of Waitangi carve-out article in the bill, an article that is identical in effect to the one they had proposed in the Singapore - New Zealand closer economic partnership, and one that they cheerfully agreed to put in New Zealand\u2019s treaty binding us to the General Agreement on Trade in Services of the World Trade Organization. However, they seem to get particularly exercised by this article. Their necks turn red before our very eyes as they rage against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe meaning of the article that they have trouble understanding is, I suggest, plain on the face of it. The Government has no particular plans for more favourable treatment of M\u0101ori, but given the historical injustices perpetrated by the Crown on M\u0101ori in breach of the treaty over the years, we deem it equitable not to preclude some favourable treatment by way of redress, if this seems necessary to the Government of the day at some time in the future. National members may shout until their necks turn red but Labour believes in justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EI thank everybody in the House, and in particular the members of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, for their attention to this important legislation. I would also like to thank the officials who were involved in the negotiation of the agreement, especially the team leader, Rachel Fry, and the members of the public and private sectors who provided invaluable input into the process. They can all be proud of their special efforts and their achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe agreement opens up substantial opportunities for exporters, both immediately and over the longer term, and will enable New Zealand\u2019s trading relationship with Thailand to achieve its full potential. Moreover, the closer economic partnership will serve as a springboard for developing aspects of the New Zealand - Thai relationship beyond the economic domain. The conclusion of the agreement has already provided the impetus to introduce a working holiday scheme with Thailand, and it creates a platform for greater cooperation in areas such as tourism, education, cultural links, and scientific exchange. Beyond this, the agreement with Thailand has added impetus to the pursuit of New Zealand\u2019s wider trade strategy objectives in South-east Asia, with negotiations now under way on free-trade agreements with Malaysia and, indeed, the entire ASEAN membership. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002297d144f946de45d581b5c6832b93b26d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297d144f946de45d581b5c6832b93b26d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the third reading of the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill, I want to reflect on what took place in the Committee stage. The Committee did canvass a number of issues in relation to this legislation, which, I make clear from the outset, National supports\u2014not because we think it is a great piece of legislation or because we think the Thai trade agreement is a great agreement, but because we believe that any trade liberalisation is positive for New Zealand and is worthy of support. I congratulate the Government on making some progress in trade negotiations, and I congratulate the Minister for Trade Negotiations on having made some progress on trade negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut having said that, I am troubled by the quality of the agreement, which this legislation implements here in New Zealand. I think any reasonably objective examination of it would show that, on balance, it is worth doing, but there are quality issues. New Zealand up until now has set very high standards in our bilateral work. During the second reading debate I mentioned that CER was a very high-standard agreement. Our Singapore agreement is a high-standard agreement. I accept that the Singapore agreement was probably easier to negotiate, although services with Singapore were not easy to deal with, I think it is fair to say\u2014but they are included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOf course, one of the troubles with this agreement is that services are not included, and services make up over two-thirds of our economy. It is a serious concern that they are not included. OK, the Minister says that negotiations on that are to commence within 3 years. At least that is something, and services are not left out altogether, but it sets a poor precedent when agreements go ahead with bits having been left behind for a period of time. I guess the Government was getting a bit desperate. It had failed with the Hong Kong free-trade agreement. That one had been initiated a long time ago, and the Government had failed on it. The Government had no runs on the board in respect of bilateral trade agreements, at all, so I guess it wanted to get this one in the bag regardless of the quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere is a second concern about quality, and that is the extension of New Zealand\u2019s undertakings beyond our APEC goals. OK, I accept that the Minister could not necessarily have negotiated with Thailand to phase out its tariffs earlier than the date it has agreed to do that\u20142025, from memory. But that is no reason for New Zealand not to agree to phase out our tariffs sooner. People are starting to learn a lot about trade. I have heard speeches this afternoon from members pointing out how important trade is to maintaining and enhancing peace and security in the world. I think I heard a member talking about trade lifting the tide and raising the living standards of all people in the nations that are trading. What I have not heard members of this Parliament begin to understand is that for us to remove barriers to trade with us, for us not necessarily to have as long a phase-out time as other countries, is to our advantage. It actually would have made sense to phase out New Zealand\u2019s tariffs by 2010\u2014our APEC goal commitment\u2014because that would be good for New Zealand and the New Zealand economy. Why did the Government agree to phase out our tariffs on goods from Thailand by 2015? That hurts our economy. All the research is so clear: the countries that open up their economies first will be in the strongest position in this globalising world. Here, this Government has chosen to maintain a long phase-out of our own tariffs, and that is a reflection of poor quality and confused thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022901ddca529004ae78fcf0314313495a3\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why does nobody do that in the real world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1eeb6cc1486477e8bf502ffd3f14f42\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, quite a few successful economies have\u2014Hong Kong, for one. Singapore did not maintain tariffs around its goods. New Zealand, of course, legislated to phase out tariffs, and Labour actually repealed that legislation, and New Zealand\u2019s economy will suffer because of that. The economies that are the first to open their markets are the economies that become the strongest in a globalising world. That is clear, if the member would only open his eyes to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe raised a number of questions, and, in fairness, I must say that the Minister did start to answer those questions. But then I guess the questions got a wee bit harder, and the Minister, the Hon Jim Sutton, got a bit petulant, started to throw his toys out of the cot, and refused to answer any more questions. Jim Sutton is not a bad bloke, I guess. He used to be a good guy, till Labour wrecked him. He certainly stopped answering questions. He became a bit more petulant and threw his toys out of the cot. These are the serious issues that we asked questions about and never got answers to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe first question was about the transitional safeguard measures. For the first time, New Zealand is implementing specific transitional safeguard measures in our law. Sure, we are party to the transitional safeguard measures involved in our World Trade Organization agreements, but good questions were asked. Why legislate for this, when we are already covered by the transitional safeguard measures of the World Trade Organization? It makes more sense for Thailand to want to put crazy restrictions into its law, but why do we follow suit? Why do we not stick to the World Trade Organization provisions? Why are we putting into our law the set of measures in Part 2 of this bill? I think it was Dail Jones from New Zealand First who said that they will be a lawyer\u2019s dream.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOne does not need to be much of a lawyer to realise that, once one reads that the bill talks about a threat of injury and an increase in the volume of imports. I think the Minister, in his third reading contribution, talked about a rush of imports, or a huge increase in imports. The legislation does not state that. It refers just to an increase, either in real terms or in relative terms. Once we have those kinds of words in our law, once we have words such as \u201Clike goods\u201D, lawyers will have a field day. It does not have to be an increase in imports of one\u2019s own product; it just has to be an increase in imports of like products\u2014and this legislation tries to define what like products are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhy put this sort of stuff in our law, when there already are safeguard provisions in the World Trade Organization agreements, which have some precedents around them? These provisions are a bit different, a bit new in our law, and I predict we will see a new industry emerge that challenges imports under these transitional safeguard provisions. If this agreement works\u2014and we hope it will\u2014imports from Thailand will increase. That is what we want. We want an increase in our exports to Thailand. So I think it was short-sighted of the Government to put those transitional safeguard measures into our law, and it is sad that the Minister did not have the heart to respond to the very good questions from my colleague Richard Worth in relation to why we should do that when the World Trade Organization already has similar provisions that would be quite adequate for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe last question on a serious issue that we raised with the Minister was why have in this agreement an article that states: \u201C\u2026 nothing in this Agreement shall preclude the adoption by New Zealand of measures it deems necessary to accord more favourable treatment to Maori in respect of matters covered by this Agreement including in fulfilment of its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D We asked the Minister\u2014which I think was perfectly fair, as this is now to be part of our law\u2014what that meant. The Minister refused to answer. He got up and raved on, but clearly did not answer. In fact, he misquoted the article and sought to downplay it through misquoting it. The article clearly states that the Government intends to be able to accord more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders find that objectionable. That was very clear following Don Brash\u2019s \u014Crewa speech last year. Trevor Mallard promised after that speech that Labour\u2019s policy had changed, that in future it would not accord more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori. Clearly, Labour will say anything it if thinks it will help it in the polls. That is quite clear. The polls were running against Labour last year on these treaty issues, so Helen Clark appointed Trevor Mallard as the Coordinating Minister, Race Relations to quieten everything down. He made a public statement at Victoria University that M\u0101ori have no extra rights or privileges under the treaty, or in the policy of the New Zealand Government, and within weeks\u2014in fact, at the very same time\u2014he knew, or should have known, that the Government was incorporating into a treaty with Thailand a provision that does exactly that; a provision that does accord more favourable treatment to M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENational members object to that, although we do support the bill in its overall impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c893bb7416a34b05b7418d8be39d220e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c893bb7416a34b05b7418d8be39d220e\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, talofa lava, sawasdee, and warm Pacific greetings. I have much pleasure indeed in standing to speak during the third reading of this very, very historic legislation, the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill of 2005. I want to thank especially the honourable Minister for Trade Negotiations, Jim Sutton, and also the officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade who have worked tirelessly in negotiating this special agreement between the peoples of Thailand and of New Zealand. It does indeed represent a significant economic and strategic opportunity for New Zealand. It not only opens up more opportunities for New Zealand businesses but is also an important step towards improving our trading environment in the region and worldwide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI want to respond to a couple of issues. One, raised by some members on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, was the Treaty of Waitangi. The relevant provision in this closer economic partnership does not have any impact on the nature of the Government\u2019s policy in relation to M\u0101ori. It is not uncommon in international trade agreements for countries to reserve the right to accord more favourable treatment to indigenous peoples or ethnic minorities. In fact, back in 1994 New Zealand recorded a reservation in its schedule of commitments under the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS). That provided for more favourable treatment to be accorded to any M\u0101ori person or organisation, but Australia, Canada, Malaysia, the United States, and France\u2014on behalf of New Caledonia\u2014have all included some form of indigenous reservation in their GATS schedules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI also want to respond to my colleague from New Zealand First, in terms of the impact of the closer economic partnership on jobs. Although a lot of allegations about job losses are made by a lot of people who are essentially opposed to free-trade agreements, there is no evidence to substantiate those allegations. The impact of opening up the New Zealand market to imports from Thailand is expected to be very muted. It is not expected that tariff reduction and removal on imports from Thailand will have a direct impact on employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EOn the other side of the ledger, a good number of export-focused industries have welcomed the outcome of the closer economic partnership and the opportunities it opens up for developing trade with Thailand. At this point in time, I want to point out the benefits, and how New Zealand will gain from this agreement. I will give some examples of the sectors that will benefit from the complete elimination of tariffs from 1 July this year. There will not be annual duty payments of about NZ$3 million on current levels of infant milk-food products. New opportunities will be opened up for the export of avocados, cherries, persimmons, and kiwifruit as a result of the removal of the 30 to 40 percent tariffs on those products. The removal of the 40 percent tariff on carrots will allow New Zealand exporters to regain the NZ$2.5 million market lost to China. A large number of manufactured exports will see their tariffs completely eliminated, including the 15 percent tariff on gas pumps, the 5 to 10 percent tariffs on plastic moulding equipment, and the 15 percent tariff on radio parts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI refer now to a letter that the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority wrote to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, urging it to support this special partnership agreement. The authority stated: \u201CNew Zealand fruit and vegetable exports have dropped from almost $13 million in 2002-03 to $7 million in 2003-04. This is the direct result of the free-trade agreement signed between Thailand and China coming into effect on 1 October 2003, providing tariff-free access for all fruit and vegetables. The New Zealand - Thailand CEP will reduce tariffs on a range of products from 40 percent to 0 from 1 July 2005, allowing New Zealand exporters to compete on a level footing with Chinese suppliers.\u201D The authority stated in the last paragraph of its letter: \u201CThailand, particularly Bangkok, is a dynamic and rapidly growing economy. This positions the New Zealand horticultural industry extremely well to take advantage of growing demand and affluence. The New Zealand horticultural industry looks forward to the passing of the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill, which will deliver real benefits to our growers and exporters.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EIt is indeed a pleasure to stand to support the bill. I thank all those involved, including the chair of the select committee, the Hon Peter Dunne, my colleague the Hon Lockwood Smith, our other National colleagues who have supported the passage of this bill, the Hon Matt Robson from the Progressives, and also my Labour colleagues. I also thank New Zealand First and the Greens for not supporting us. Other than that, this is a great day for New Zealand, and I thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022090e12c924f440ae892826a84b3bbf43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022090e12c924f440ae892826a84b3bbf43\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The first thing I should do is indicate the nature of the trade between Thailand and New Zealand, based on Statistics New Zealand external trade statistics for New Zealand exports to Thailand in the December years\u2014say, December 2004, and also December 2002 and December 2003. The astonishing thing is that I have to disagree with the preceding speaker. She has misinformed the House, based on the letter she received from the Horticulture Export Authority. I look at the reference I have to horticultural exports. The member said that they totalled $7 million last year. The member has the letter, but I have the statistics. The statistics do not confirm what is in the letter. The letter is seemingly untrue, and that member, a Government member, has not bothered to check the facts. She must not repeat things that are told to her, assuming they are true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAccording to these\u2014[Interruption] The member should not look at me like that. These are the statistics, and I will read them out. If we look at the top 20 subtotal for exports to Thailand, there is not one dollar for horticulture, and the statistics go down to $3 million. There is not one dollar of horticultural export goods mentioned there. These statistics are for the top 20 exports. We have milk-powder extract, buttermilk, butter, timber, fish, raw hides, frozen beef, air vacuum pumps\u2014$3.3 million for those\u2014and $3 million for iron or non-alloy steel flat-rolled products. There is nothing for horticultural products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESo if the member is going to quote statistics, she has to get them right. She has to check what she is quoting. Just because somebody has told her something, that does not mean that it is true. That is the basic rule of politics. She has been caught short badly. I read that letter and I thought I would check the figures. That letter was wrong. If it is right, I will look forward to discussing it with the authority. I would like to see members of the authority tomorrow, because these statistics must be right, surely. This document has been given to me by the Parliamentary Library. It is quite clearly entitled \u201CStatistics New Zealand external trade statistics 2004, 2003\u201D, and there is a reference to 2002. It is as simple as that. So the previous speaker has mud all over her face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOf course, this bill is also about horticulture. While we are on that topic I will make just one more point. Why did the member not quote this from the Horticulture Export Authority? The authority told the select committee considering the bill: \u201CHowever, new residue testing requirements proposed by the Thai Government have the potential to significantly reduce the benefits from the agreement. These requirements are viewed by both the New Zealand export industry and Thai fruit and vegetable importers as a non-tariff trade barrier, focused on reducing imports of Chinese fruit and vegetables. We are working with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade to address this issue.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe barriers they are putting up against China affect New Zealand as well, so the amount of fruit exported to Thailand from New Zealand will be virtually nil. I have those two documents here, and the member can comment on them. I am prepared to table them, to make them available to anybody. Clearly, it is all very well for the Minister to parrot something and for this other Labour member to parrot something, but parrots are only parrots. We have to think for ourselves sometimes, and that is what we do in New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe care about the workers of New Zealand. The National Party wants more and more imports into New Zealand, and their members support this bill. The Labour Party gets its facts wrong, and its members stand there and say how wonderful this legislation is. There are more and more imports into New Zealand, and more jobs are being lost for workers in Porirua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat about the workers in Porirua? They will suffer as a result of this legislation. New Zealand First made that clear. Once again, we quoted from the information in the report, which was supplied by the officials. The national interest analysis on page 21 has the following statement, and refers to the New Zealand First minority view on the agreement: \u201CThe clothing, footwear, and carpet sector, where the highest tariff of 17.9 percent prevails, has traditionally seen the most sensitive tariff reductions. Concern in relation to imports from Thailand was also raised in respect of whiteware, plasterboard, steel, and certain textiles.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is concerned about workers in those industries, some of whom I am sure are in the Porirua and Wellington areas. The previous speaker, who represents an area of Wellington, seems to have no regard for them whatsoever. I can say that New Zealand First does have concern for those workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to read about the imports from Thailand, and I mentioned this in the Committee stage. One of the imports is caviar\u2014$21 million of caviar is imported from Thailand. I can just imagine all the Chardonnay-sipping Labour socialists now will be adding Thailand caviar to their lovely lattes and coffees when they are in Ponsonby, Grafton, Parnell, and wherever else one goes in Auckland to enjoy a Saturday latte. Now they will have a touch of caviar, probably on their French-imported biscuits. That is what the Labour Party has to offer to the workers. If they cannot have bread, they can have some caviar\u2014imported especially from Thailand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat a state this Labour Party is in today. No one in this Labour Party has shown any concern for the workers of New Zealand. New Zealand First has been concerned, and the Greens have shown some concern, although they seem to be almost as concerned about the workers in Thailand as they are about the workers in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENational Party members made some very good speeches on this bill. I had regarded them as being in opposition to the legislation. I commend Dr Lockwood Smith for his speeches. They were all in opposition to the legislation. He has admitted that it is a poor-quality agreement. I think he is just going on the basis that any trade agreement is a good trade agreement, it does not matter what the quality is. As far as New Zealand First is concerned, it has to be a good-quality agreement, and the prime requirement is the welfare of the workers of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat does this agreement offer New Zealand in that very important area of services? This agreement does not include services, and that is despite services contributing 68 percent of New Zealand\u2019s GDP. This agreement provides for negotiation to be only initiated within the next 3 years. Initiated negotiations do not necessarily end in completed negotiations. They begin in 3 years\u2019 time, and how long will they go on for? We are talking about services being 68 percent of our GDP, and they are not even included in this agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EDr Lockwood Smith said that it set a bad precedent. It sets a terribly bad precedent. One can imagine that if we are going into a deal with China, and they see what we have agreed to in this agreement, well the Chinese will have read every last word of it and they will be going for the same sort of deal. They will not want to give us services, because they will say: \u201CWell, you agreed to do that deal with Thailand, so why should you not do it with us as well?\u201D. It is an appalling agreement in that respect, also. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as services are concerned, it seems to be a bit of a one-way street. As the reports from the officials pointed out, it seems we make provisions for Thai chefs and Thai female massagers to come to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d57debddff418f8aabe0aaf80cb52f\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: Really?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a1fe0e320b40ab9b5c09e477d8e229\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: That is true, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d7ae967a7441a78739185b116dc665\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: The member seems to know all about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d0182b8c5e5479bb7853ec2cdc8e2bb\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I do. I had to read it a few times. I cannot pronounce it\u2014there are too many \u201Cths\u201D and I lose track of it so I have abbreviated it a little, I have to confess. Dover Samuels looks up. Yes, there is a special provision for Thai chefs and Thai female massagers. What sort of an agreement is that? I asked the Minister in the chair, Mr Sutton, when these people actually go back, because they seem to be here temporarily. I never got any answer from the Minister. He was too flabbergasted himself to think about it. Although I think I did get an answer about how wonderful it would be for me to have a Thai female massage. What sort of an answer is that? We in New Zealand First want to know how long these people are going to stay in New Zealand, what they are going to do here, and why New Zealanders cannot do those jobs. New Zealanders should get those jobs first. Surely, after all these years of links with Thailand, we should have people capable of doing massages and knocking up a nice Thai curry for us all, without having to go to Thailand or having a Thai chef to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E Finally, I just make the point that the bill is a travesty as far as parliamentary process is concerned. The Prime Minister, in her arrogant way, and ready to get any sort of photo opportunity, had already signed this agreement. We saw her and the Thai people signing it, yet here we are, wasting our time in Parliament, pretending to approve an agreement that the Labour Government has already signed. That is an arrogant attitude. I draw the attention of the member concerned to the submissions on the agreement, which are not necessarily the submissions on the bill. She clearly has not read the submission of the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority. I have read the letter that she has given. I checked the facts in it about trade, and they are wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI seek the leave of the House to table the extract from Statistics New Zealand\u2019s external trade statistics showing New Zealand exports to Thailand in December of the years 2002, 2003, and 2004, and imports from Thailand, which make no reference to horticultural products being $7 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u002292339cb415a84c34adbba87209f66b40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292339cb415a84c34adbba87209f66b40\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the letter from the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority, the chief executive of the New Zealand Fruitgrowers Association, and the New Zealand Vegetable and Potato Growers Federation to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to support the New Zealand - Thailand closer economic partnership agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00226cd665f3970f4af6b832bac29fe42de2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cd665f3970f4af6b832bac29fe42de2\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens will oppose the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill, because although there are some advantages for New Zealand exporters\u2014fruit and vegetable exporters have been referred to\u2014overall, it will be a disadvantage to a good many people, both in Thailand and in New Zealand. Workers in both countries will not be the beneficiaries. In my earlier contributions, I talked about the disadvantages that Thai workers face at the present time, with very low wages, with international labour standards not applying, and with very poor conditions in the factories they work in. They actually want our assistance. Thai workers have been out here campaigning against this agreement, because what they want are agreements that have attached to them some advantage for them in terms of better wages, better conditions, and more adherence by their Government to international labour standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EJust last week I received an email from a New Zealand unionist, a friend of mine, in Thailand. He was visiting various unions there, and he said: \u201CYesterday I met again the president of an electronics factory union. He also works in the factory. They have problems, including how hot the factory gets. However, he was telling me about the number of relatively young people who are dying as a result of chemicals at work. One worker was just 27 years old. She had breathed in solder fumes continuously for 5 years. Another young woman, 32 years old, agreed to give a newspaper interview about her work-related fatal illness but died 2 days later, on the day she was to be interviewed. Two of the women workers I have met on the last three visits seem to be suffering from some effects of chemicals at their work.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThen he goes on to say that another major in the factory is subcontracting. One of the subcontracting companies in the factory again did not pay its employees on time. As a result the workers have to pay an extra 50 baht a day in rent until they pay their due rent. He says: \u201CI am wondering about the Thailand NZFDA and how we can work closer with Thai workers on issues like chemical poisoning and subcontracting.\u201D So there are contacts between New Zealand workers and Thai workers to try to get mutual benefits for both. This free-trade agreement and the legislation we are discussing today do not really advance that. In fact, if we work in such a way with these agreements so as to increase the wages and conditions of Thai workers, that helps us, because it reduces the wage gap in production, both in Thailand and in New Zealand, so there is less likelihood of the very low wages in Thailand undermining the exports of New Zealand manufacturers or undermining the production of New Zealand manufactures here, which could accompany goods produced by cheap labour flooding into New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have to realise that we should not take an ideological approach to trade and say that all free trade is good and it will all come out right at the end, or, as one speaker said today, that somehow it raises the level of us all. In fact, that is not true. Industries are undermined and destroyed by free trade. The Greens do not say that we have to be totally self-sufficient, or that we have the complete, full range of manufacturing that we once had, but we do not want to undermine all our manufacturing by competing with very low-wage economies. As I quoted earlier from Oxfam, there is a potential for New Zealand trade in dairy products to Thailand to undermine the Thai dairy industry, whereas if we build in transitions, where we help increase the efficiency of the Thai dairy industry at the same time as we are easing in imports, then it is a win-win situation. There is a growing market in Thailand, as other speakers have said, and it can accommodate efficient Thai dairy production while not destroying those farmers as well as exports from New Zealand. That is what we should be working towards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESometimes these free-trade agreements are surrounded by myths. That applies not only to the agreement we are implementing in legislation here today but also to the free-trade agreement with China that is in the pipeline. One of the myths is that New Zealand will keep its manufacturing industry, because we will move out of mass production of manufactured items and into high-level, high-value-added quality goods. That myth has been in New Zealand society for some time. I remember many years ago, when the Japanese were just starting to pick up their industrialisation, New Zealanders used to say: \u201COh, these cheap Japanese goods\u2014they\u2019re no good. They\u2019re not really a threat to us.\u201D, and put them down as low quality, etc. There is a bit of that myth around in relation to the newly emerging economies of east Asia, be it China or be it Thailand, that somehow they are producing in a mass way and we can compete with quality goods. In fact, if one does not have a proper manufacturing base, one does not get the quality at the top end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne has to realise that countries the size of Thailand and, particularly, China, have both. They have the mass production, and they have a very strong and growing quality-research end, a high-tech end, that will compete directly with us on all levels of manufacturing. If we destroy our manufacturing base, or limit it so much that we do not have the skills in the economy, be it in clothing or other forms of manufacturing, we will not be able to compete at any end of the market. Even our fashion designers are finding that at the moment. They look around for really skilled people to sew up their garments, and they are finding a shortage because of the collapse of the clothing industry in New Zealand, which this bill we are discussing here today will increase. It is the same in other forms of manufacturing as well, be it metallurgy or whatever. We need the tradespeople and the designers to be able to produce for the domestic economy and compete in the international economy. To use an analogy with the rugby game that is going on tonight, one does not get a quality team, be it the Wellington Lions or be it the All Blacks, if one does not have a big playing base. The quality comes out of that big base. We have to take note of that if we want to protect our own manufacturing here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Greens tried to improve this bill with amendments to make any transitional agreements subject to ILO standards, but we failed. I think we have to remember that this bill is the first of a range of bills that may come in to cover the other aspects of that agreement in relation to investment and, later, to services, if that gets agreed to. We have a problem in New Zealand at the moment with quite a foreign takeover of our industries and land, and we do not want to increase that through these free-trade and investment agreements that make us even more like foreigners in our own country in the sense of our ownership of infrastructure, industry, and agricultural land. Labour should be a little bit ashamed about this. Traditionally, Labour has had a close association with the trade union movement, but that association is loosening now because Labour is not taking note, in terms of this bill, of the criticisms made by the Council of Trade Unions of the free-trade agreement and what has come out of it. Unfortunately Labour is adopting more and more this ideology that free trade is everything and that we should just pursue it wholesale without taking into account the interests of New Zealand workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0cb16092d7b4a20930600207433270c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0cb16092d7b4a20930600207433270c\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT will certainly be supporting this bill. We are the champions of free trade. We recognise the benefits that come from freer trade in the international community. In fact, my colleague Kenneth Wang, New Zealand\u2019s newest member of Parliament, was just saying to me that those Green Party people are mad. That is what he said. He said that because the Greens believe that New Zealand can just lock itself in a cocoon\u2014the \u201Cfortress New Zealand\u201D approach\u2014when at the end of the day New Zealand is, perhaps, as a percentage of GDP, more dependent on trade than just about any other economy in the world. If we accept the basic fact that New Zealand is dependent on trade, then we can see that it is certainly in our overwhelming interest to be the champion of free trade and to look at breaking down barriers wherever we can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe harsh reality is that trade liberalisation is progressing at glacially slow speeds. We had the Tokyo round in the 1960s and 1970s, followed by the Uruguay round, which slowly crawled on. We had the Cairns group trying to promote agriculture right through that era. We now have the Doha round. It is frustrating. I commend trade Ministers from successive Governments, because I think that trade is non-partisan. We as a Parliament should be supporting our trade Ministers, whatever Government they are from. Some say that those Ministers are just swanning off around the world and having meetings every other week in some other place. It is actually a hard slog. I know that. Any gains we make are made very slowly. Right from Jack Marshall\u2019s time onwards, through successive Governments, we have had good trade Ministers who have worked in New Zealand\u2019s interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EIt is overwhelmingly in our interest to get comprehensive liberalisation of trade, because we have been disadvantaged proportionately very highly. The Rogernomics Government of the 1980s transformed the New Zealand economy. I was very proud to be a member of that Government. Most people in the ACT party relate to those reforms\u2014the current Labour Government, of course, denies them\u2014and those reforms are the reason for the prosperous situation this country is in today. That is the reality. The Government of the time broke down those barriers and took the hard yards back in the latter part of the 1980s, and that continued in the early 1990s under Ruth Richardson, until Jim Bolger sacked her. That is when the hard yards were done. That is when we took the bold decisions to take away our subsidies and to start taking away our tariff protections, and to the extent that, for a long period, we as a nation led the world, we are in a stronger position. We are in a stronger position because we have already taken away many of our trade barriers, and therefore we are poised to gain proportionately more than most by getting breakthroughs in agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI understand that the tariff against our sawn timber going into Thailand is up in the 15 to 20 percent range. Officials could probably confirm that. That is a very serious obstacle to the profitability of our very important forest industry. Yes, we may lose in footwear, clothing, and textiles, because in those instances Thailand has the comparative advantage. But that is the beauty of freer trade. Both economies will be better off. Both peoples in both nations will be more prosperous. Overall, the global benefits and prosperity that come from freer trade are overwhelming. That is what the Green Party and, I regret to say, the xenophobic New Zealand First Party, simply do not understand. They do not get it. They believe in \u201Cfortress New Zealand\u201D. They like to stoke prejudice and say that people will lose their jobs to foreigners. What utter nonsense! The benefits for New Zealand in freer trade are overwhelming, because freer trade is based on comparative advantage. That is Economics 101. Therefore, the ACT party is very enthusiastic in supporting freer trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EHowever, I have to say that, regrettably, this agreement, which has been signed, does have some serious shortcomings and deficiencies. Unfortunately, the current socialist Labour Government has imported into it all sorts of extraneous and strange concepts that actually debase the value of it\u2014like the fact that we will have more favourable treatment for M\u0101ori. That is PC socialist nonsense\u2014absolute nonsense. That provision is a foolish addition to this free-trade agreement. I am sure that the officials did not recommend it. It was a straight policy decision from this Labour Government\u2014this misguided Labour Government, in this instance\u2014and I actually feel sorry for our Minister for Trade Negotiations, Jim Sutton, for having to tolerate that sort of pollution of what could have been a much more robust and sensible negotiated position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI am sure that the Minister did not support the insertion of that silly provision. What are we actually saying here? Is there something special about M\u0101ori apples? If we want to put apples into the Thailand market, are we saying that if they are grown by M\u0101ori there is something special about them? What absolute nonsense\u2014what absolute patronising pap! Who on earth thought up that provision, other than, perhaps, some M\u0101ori militant who is going for separate sovereignty or something and sees this as part of the leverage towards that. There is no place for that sort of nonsense in international trade agreements. We would certainly oppose it if another nation tried to impose those sorts of provisions, so why on earth did this Labour Government succumb to that sort of nonsense? I bet that the young member for Otaki, Darren Hughes, did not support that proposal. He is a rational young man, from what I have seen of him. I do not know who in that Labour Government carried the day and imposed that sort of nonsense on a trade agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI have to say to the House that although the ACT party champions free trade, and although we have indicated our support and will be voting for this bill, that provision almost swung it for us. We find it totally objectionable that stuff like this\u2014like the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014continues to be perpetrated in legislation, and ACT consistently votes against them. The \u201CWinston First\u201D party members always oppose them verbally. They go out to public meetings and say that they are opposed to bills that refer to the principles of the treaty, but every time it comes to a vote in Parliament, they vote for them. The ACT party walks the talk, and it was on that basis that we were almost spun out of voting for this bill. It is a particularly foolish provision to have in this negotiated free-trade agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI note that there are rules of origin, and we have been given some assurance that they will not be exploited. We take that on trust. We also note with disappointment that services are not provided for in this agreement. I understand that the only commitment Thailand has made is to initiate negotiations in 3 years\u2019 time. Of course, that is pretty meaningless; we appreciate that. But that is the nature of these trade agreements. The big picture is that we have taken a step. We have a commitment between two nations to move forward with a bilateral agreement. We would far rather have a multilateral agreement. Multilateral trade agreements are far preferable, but because of the sluggish progress made under the Doha round\u2014and it will always be so, I fear. In the meantime we have all these bilateral agreements between nations. It is only when one gets to a collective point at which a sufficient number of these bilateral agreements exist that one gets a culture globally to swing in behind the multilateral agreement. That is the reality. So the ACT party will support the bill, but again I must stress that we express our serious disappointment with these foolish, extraneous clip-ons that the Labour Government, for politically correct reasons, has put in the agreement. They do not belong in it, they are foolish, and they are perverse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00225e53dc7f93a249b39f223e37cdbd2993\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e53dc7f93a249b39f223e37cdbd2993\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E As I look around the House tonight, I see the member who has just resumed his seat, Ken Shirley, and the member who spoke a little earlier, Dail Jones. I can see no one else who has actually experienced what is it like to be part of Government that is about to lose an election. Those who have been through that, like Ken Shirley, Dail Jones, and myself, know what the smell is like. They know the feeling. They sit there and they look. They smell the stench. They feel the decay. They understand what a party on its way out feels like. That is what we are seeing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fb35ab538ea4dc8ae9c70256098b4be\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Have you got only one speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c8ed2f41dec4995bf7045cd5c317d4b\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Ruth Dyson has asked me whether I have only one speech. Quite honestly, at the moment it is the only one I feel like giving, and it is glad tidings for New Zealand. At last it looks as if this lot is on its way out. The point I am making is that members sit there, emitting hope, thinking they may be able to hang on, and not looking at reality. I look at things like this legislation, and I look at the headline: \u201CLabour backs \u2018sorry\u2019 envoy\u201D, and I see that it has happened again, has it not? This is what happens when a Government is going out of power. The stories are bad. The Government brings legislation through, because it worries that it will not get another chance to do some of the socialist things it wants to do as a socialist Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWe have had the first reading debate, the second reading debate, and today the Committee stage of this bill. We have pushed this bill through under urgency. It is an important bill, because it organises free-trade relations between our country and another. But underlying it are all the things this Government was asked to tell us about but could not or would not\u2014one or the other. Those of us who have been around for a while know why. It is because one gets to the stage when one is too tired to respond. It is such a big effort to bring legislation of this nature forward that when the Opposition starts asking deep questions such as why there are exceptions in the legislation and why there are clauses in it that refer to the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014we want to know that means, what the implications are, and what the words \u201Cobligations under the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D mean\u2014the Government cannot answer them. We know that it has spent all its energy on getting the legislation into the House, and that it is beyond its ability to explain its reasons any more. That is why someone with a few years\u2019 experience in this place can smell the decay and the stench. One can smell the rotting carcass of a Government on its way out of office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThis is a great day. Here we are debating the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill, which is an important piece of legislation. The Labour Government, after 6 long years\u2014far longer than 9 years under National\u2014has finally given us something positive. I must say that I commend the officials who have worked hard to make this happen. Good on them. I commend their Minister for the work he has done, because undoubtedly lots of hard work has been done. But unfortunately there are so many qualifications around the agreement that it is limited at this stage. But that is OK, because at least we have a foundation so that the incoming Government can fix it up, and that can be done too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI want to focus on two issues tonight. The first is the fact that we have all these exceptions\u2014all these issues that really matter. The fact is that all the qualifications around the agreement will cause lots of complications. Mark my words\u2014as previous speakers have said, there are issues that will cause us problems as we develop this agreement. In fact, one of my colleagues said to me earlier, as other speakers have said, that it is a lawyer\u2019s dream. [Interruption] Yes, well, one of them was unkind enough to say that there is some good in it, because it will help the lawyers, but, of course, that is not the intention. The agreement is intended to help the country, and it will. But, sadly, it will cause some legal complications on the way through. The second important issue is the fact that this Government is still trying to tell the nation\u2014as in the speech made by Mr Mallard in the middle of last year\u2014that there are no preferences for M\u0101ori under the Labour Government any more. Yet in this bill we have a clause that gives preferential treatment to M\u0101ori. In my view, that is an absolute insult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eebca86509d45a79c5714f7cb115765\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: When are you going to mention the wh\u0101nau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022219ce2f52d0c41729a5526694928c90e\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need to. I seriously do not need to. The fact that this clause is in the bill says enough. It says that this Government has not moved away from patronising the M\u0101ori people of this country. The Government is saying that the M\u0101ori are not as good as the rest of New Zealanders, whereas people like me who represent a good number of M\u0101ori people know that they are just as good and make as big a contribution to this nation as any other New Zealanders. And they do so because they are New Zealanders, not because of their race. That is the issue that Labour unfortunately cannot get its mind around. It is not a matter of race; it is a matter of contribution. It is a matter of doing what is right because one is a New Zealander, and the people of Northland, M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI am proud to represent the people of Northland. I am proud that those people, if they were in this House today, would support my saying these words, regardless of their race. They are Northlanders and they are New Zealanders. They want to see this nation go ahead, and they do not need clauses in legislation that give special preferences to anybody. They are not those sorts of people. They are here for New Zealanders. They do accept that there are some in our society who need assistance from time to time and who, for some reason, have not done as well as others and need some support. They understand that the incoming National Government will give those people that support. What they cannot accept is the fact that they currently have a Government that thinks it can condescend to M\u0101ori and give them a special preference when they do not need it. That is one of the reasons\u2014one of the many reasons\u2014why this Government has suddenly acquired the smell of an outgoing Government. It suddenly has that aroma\u2014one that it cannot wash off. Members can put on as much under-arm deodorant, aftershave, and spray as they like, but the aroma does not go away. Ken Shirley knows that; he has been there. Dail Jones knows that; he has been there. I have, too, and however much one washes, it does not disappear. When members are on their way out, they are on their way out. We support this bill, but we do so with some qualifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220265dfc64d7141948d1ca347a6b2b393\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 94\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 24; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002226e9d5506a954876843fdb676ed37eaa\u0022\u003ETaxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c266db4a2bc4161a73cfe278f1cc863\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00223ee6b5ae584b4633a631635219358ad7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ee6b5ae584b4633a631635219358ad7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Associate Minister of Revenue)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Revenue: I move, That the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill be now read a second time. The Finance and Expenditure Committee has considered the bill and recommended a number of amendments to the proposed legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe main feature of the bill, of course, is legislation to ensure that foreign-owned banks operating in New Zealand pay sufficient tax on their New Zealand income. The legislation proposed in the bill is a response to the fact that foreign-owned banks operating here appear to be relying excessively on debt funding their New Zealand businesses and their offshore investments. They can therefore use interest deductions arising from this excessive level of debt to reduce the proportion of their income that is subject to tax in New Zealand. One way of doing this is to use cross-border financing arrangements, which are generally funded by debt, to generate income that is effectively not subject to tax in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBanks can also substitute debt for equity in financing their New Zealand business, which can result in a New Zealand business being thinly capitalised relative to the worldwide business. The bill therefore introduces thin capitalisation rules that ensure that the income of banks cannot be sheltered by interest deductions arising from excessive debt. Banks will not have access to interest deductions if they do not hold a level of equity equivalent to 4 percent of their New Zealand banking assets weighted for risk. They must also have enough capital in New Zealand, on which no interest is deductible, to fully fund their overseas investments. Supplementary Order Paper 337, which was released after the bill\u2019s introduction, further strengthens the proposed legislation, and ensures that it operates as intended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe committee has recommended several changes to ensure that the legislation, once enacted, is fully effective. A major group of recommended changes relates to the measurement of equity that supports a New Zealand banking business that has a foreign owner. In particular, the committee has recommended changes to make it clearer what should and should not be counted in the equity calculation, and which assets can and cannot be debt funded. The Supplementary Order Paper allows regulations to be made by Order in Council, should the definition of \u201Cequity\u201D prove to be unclear at any point in the future. The committee has recommended that this power be narrowed and limited to situations where there is a need for clarity about whether a particular instrument is considered to be a debt or equity instrument. I am confident that the changes will improve the operation of the new thin capitalisation rules. The Government intends to monitor closely the operation of the new rules to ensure that they are well understood and operating as intended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe bill also introduces statutory privilege, or a right not to disclose certain documents to confidential tax advice that is given by advisers, such as chartered accountants. That right is similar to legal professional privilege, although it is subject to a number of exclusions. The change has been welcomed by tax professionals. As introduced, the bill required tax advisers to provide a statutory declaration of information contained in a privileged document. However, the committee believes that such a requirement for all circumstances would impose unnecessary compliance costs on those seeking to claim privilege, and that a statutory declaration should be required only as a last resort. Therefore, it is recommended that a process is introduced that would see the Inland Revenue Department requesting a statutory declaration only when necessary to an investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe other main change the committee has recommended to the privilege legislation is to widen the definition of \u201Ctax adviser\u201D so that it is not limited just to advisers who have a significant function of giving tax advice, as long as they are members of an approved organisation, such as the Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand, that does so. The committee has recommended a number of other technical amendments to the privilege legislation that will also help it to operate more effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces several business-friendly amendments. They include clarification of the income tax rules on transfers of assets and liabilities to beneficiaries when a taxpayer dies, which is a reform that is long overdue. They include a number of technical changes to the tax depreciation rules to ensure their operation and reduce compliance costs. The ambit of the changes extends from the treatment of patents in plant variety rights, through to deductibility for losses on buildings. They include expansion and clarification of the rules on tax deductibility for business environmental expenditure, such as the cost of preventing, remedying, or mitigating the discharge of contaminants. The changes allow environmental costs, like other business costs, to be taken into account for tax purposes. The changes include the introduction of a 6-year tax exemption on income from non-resident drilling rigs and seismic ships involved in the exploration of petroleum in New Zealand, as part of a package of measures to boost gas exploration. The committee has considered those and other amendments in the bill and has made a number of helpful recommendations to ensure the smooth operation and effectiveness of the proposed legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAt some point before the bill proceeds to the Committee of the whole House, I will release two Supplementary Order Papers: one to ensure that the draft legislation better reflects the recommendations of the Finance and Expenditure Committee in a number of areas, and the other to split the bill into two in anticipation of passage. I thank the committee for its thoughtful consideration of this highly technical bill and I recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022434396b41f92434c9e53fb7c641a4973\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022434396b41f92434c9e53fb7c641a4973\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, but let us reflect on the raft of taxation legislation that has been coming before the House in the last 3 to 4 years. In 2004 the House passed the Income Tax Act 2004, which is over 1,000 pages long. That Act tried to tidy up and combine all the amendments. Since then, a lot of taxation legislation has come before the House. Last week, we saw another one, the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, go to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for consideration. The issue that I want to bring up is the raft of taxation legislation that has come before the House. Some pieces of legislation are unavoidable; we have a lot of understanding for the ongoing tactics by some corporations to minimise taxation. But one can argue that others would be avoidable if we did not have such a complicated tax regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E That tax regime is further compromised because the Labour Government is continuing to use it also for targeting activities or for influencing behaviour. Every time that is done, we find that tax legislation becomes even more complicated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELet me demonstrate by saying that it is well known that Government MPs and Cabinet Ministers are always standing up and saying that Labour is intending to reduce compliance costs\u2014which include taxation\u2014in its legislation. But the truth is, if we look at the estimates, we see that the Inland Revenue Department is telling us it has put aside $3.25 million to set up a unit in order to familiarise small to medium sized enterprises with their tax obligations and educate them so that they understand them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ETonight we are debating legislation that once again runs to 170 pages, which is why that special unit will have to be set up in order to familiarise and educate those small to medium sized enterprises; that, to me, is not simplifying compliance tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other complication the Labour Government is introducing is an increase in the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s workload in terms of delivering social welfare issues. For example, $66 million has been set aside for the Working for Families package, so the more the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s workload has been diverted to purposes other than the collection of tax, the more complications we have in terms of debating taxation legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ETo demonstrate that once again in the estimates of the Inland Revenue Department, we find that it has allocated $117 million for information dissemination, etc. The assessment of tax, on the other hand, is allocated $66 million, which in itself tells us that something is not going very right for the Inland Revenue Department, which is set up to collect tax, supposedly to finance necessary Government expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EOne of the most controversial or high-profile issues contained in this Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill relates to what we call the thin capitalisation rules, which are meant to close the loophole of foreign-owned banks that claim excessive interest expenditure. We support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI also ask the House to reflect on the fact that on one hand our Inland Revenue Department says that it wants to close loopholes and that it does not want foreign-owned banks to take advantage of our taxation legislation\u2014indeed, one of the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s objectives is to enhance and promote compliance with our taxation law\u2014but I cannot help reflecting, on the other hand, that our State-owned enterprise Transpower has apparently entered into a financial transaction, about which today the Hon Michael Cullen has not seen fit to share information with us in terms of whether that transaction really does not cost New Zealand taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThere is an ethical issue involved; we are passing legislation today to ensure that foreign-owned banks do not take advantage of loopholes in our tax legislation, so one has to ask what sort of example our State-owned enterprise is setting in its undertaking. I actually asked the Inland Revenue Department whether it conveyed the message of tax compliance to State-owned enterprises to ensure they do not enter deals that could be seen to be taking advantage of tax loopholes both here and internationally. Quite interestingly, the answer I got back from the Inland Revenue Department was that it treats State-owned enterprises in the same way it treats any other corporate taxpayer, and the department always tries to encourage self-compliance with legal requirements, and provides assistance to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI asked about the types of deals, but the Inland Revenue Department, in talking about the types of investments State-owned enterprises would make, said that that was not a matter for the department\u2014correctly so. Those enterprises are responsible to the guidance set by shareholding Ministers. But the Inland Revenue Department continued to say that any encouragement or guidance regarding tax compliance directed specifically at State-owned enterprises has to come from shareholding Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that the Inland Revenue Department then went on to say that it was aware that such guidance had, in fact, been provided. So I am really looking forward to seeing during the Committee stage whether the Minister will disclose to us, so that we can see whether we are adopting one law for all, and whether all State-owned enterprises, in return, are also observing or complying with legislation in the spirit of paying their fair share of taxation. We are looking forward to asking those specific questions during the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned, National is supportive of this bill and we welcome some specific provisions. But, in saying that, we also say that every time we look at the provisions, even the provisions we support, we find that the compliance for the tax provision is complicated. The National Party has promised ultimately that it will cut the company tax rate and also personal tax rates, because that is the only way to achieve more simplified taxation legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWhen company and personal tax rates are set at high levels, there is so much incentive for tax advisers, individuals, and companies to spend a lot of their energy in engaging in tax arrangements. I remember, being an accountant myself, that in the late 1990s my accounting colleagues told me that they were actually spending more time in doing management consultancy and in helping companies to grow, but ever since the Labour Government put up the personal tax rate, a whole raft of tax advisers and consultants have come into play, and tax compliance has become complicated\u2014[Interruption]\u2014as the Labour member yelled out\u2014which is why we have been constantly brought back into this House to debate tax legislation. I think that any Government that wants its private sector and others to concentrate on expanding their businesses should bring taxation down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u002228b5e9c84a9b488486e1d5dace315b95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228b5e9c84a9b488486e1d5dace315b95\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I am a little surprised to be invited to join in this debate, but it is actually one that is very important to the oil and gas exploration industry. It contains a very significant change, which is that the Finance and Expenditure Committee has agreed with a proposition in the bill to provide tax exemptions, applicable for 6 years, for income earned by non-resident rig operators from the drilling of wells in order to explore and develop offshore petroleum fields in New Zealand. It also provides an exemption for income earned by non-residents from ships providing seismic survey readings in order to identify petroleum in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EBoth of those initiatives are very important, particularly in my second portfolio as Associate Minister of Energy, where I am responsible for the Crown minerals section of the Ministry of Economic Development, which deals with mines and, of course, petroleum exploration. Those two measures contained in this bill will make, I believe, a not insignificant difference to the industry and will be very much welcomed. The bill certainly allows for the, shall we say, mobilisation costs in New Zealand, which are quite large because of our distance from the main oil drilling centres of the world, to be offset at least to a degree in the costs factored in by the companies, when deciding where to invest their money and where to send their seismic ships or offshore drilling rig equipment. Whether the drilling is submersible or semi-submersible, the mobilisation costs, drilling rigs, etc. are very expensive. So I think that is a not insignificant measure in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI want to take only a short call, but I do want to respond very briefly to my colleague on the Opposition side of the House who preceded me. I think New Zealanders are getting just a little tired of the tired old mantra from the right wing of New Zealand politics, which keeps talking about New Zealand\u2019s high-tax regime. That is simply a nonsense. When we consider most of the countries that we like to compare ourselves with, we find the tax burden on the New Zealand taxpayer is lower than it is on taxpayers in virtually all of them. In fact, if we consider the entire OECD, I think it would be fair to say that if we take into account all the taxes, including such things as the health taxes, superannuation payments, and all the other things that people stack on top\u2014even such simple things as the registration costs for one\u2019s motor vehicle\u2014we would find that there is one country in the OECD that has generally lower daily costs by way of tax than New Zealand. I think there may be a couple of countries in that situation, but Mexico is the one that springs to mind and, to be really honest, I do not hear a lot of New Zealanders talk about rushing to take their businesses off and establish them in Mexico. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EWhat I do hear is that a lot of people are very keen to find out how we are so efficient in the running of some of our public institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221da834b802f4402f9956219714656f02\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022382c0821464546729a0887f94e5a5be0\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member\u2014and she can laugh and jump up and down if she likes\u2014to look at some of our public institutions. Recently I was talking to a new immigrant to New Zealand, a doctor who has been here for several years now. He has worked in the health systems in many of the countries that we like to consider to be more advanced than us, including the Netherlands, I have to say. He said to me that New Zealand\u2019s health system is the best one he has worked in, and that it provides the best outcome for the money provided. That gentleman has worked in several countries at a very high level in the health system. Now, what does that have to do with taxation? It is taxation that provides for all those things, yet we have seen significant development in this country over the years. Ms Wong can jump up and down all she likes, but she is not providing me with the facts and figures that state other countries are doing significantly better than us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI just wanted to take a short call on this bill, but I am sure the measures taken in it for the oil and gas industry will provide a very good dividend for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8c9c04d27e0400598a8433d2ba55349\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8c9c04d27e0400598a8433d2ba55349\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Like the member Harry Duynhoven, I was surprised to see another Labour MP apart from the Associate Minister of Revenue\u2014and a Minister normally takes the initial call\u2014get to speak on a bill such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI want to make just one other point before I get specifically on to the bill. The National member Pansy Wong talked in her speech earlier about the small-company tax unit this Government is setting up. Well, that is not the only such unit this Government has started to set up. Obviously, in the last couple of weeks we have just seen the Government set up, after pressure from New Zealand First, a small Immigration Service unit, as well. The Government is into setting up small units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a239a9755f3541878aa2d8b3ce3379fb\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022307ebb6e519046b09065f63c3c21c1cf\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, as Pansy Wong has said, that is not exactly about tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a884f9d70fa344fcb2ef509c163e3d82\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: It is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a5e7e556a0c4504b22979db1ea64fe6\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is, I guess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa02817ad6544d58dcd69bc8c90e495\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s funded by tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c60cab2a4e8a400483cb90c15b60e5d4\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right\u2014it is funded by tax. The commentary on the bill states: \u201CThe bill introduces new thin capitalisation rules to prevent foreign-owned registered banks operating in New Zealand from accessing interest deductions if their capital in New Zealand is insufficient to support their operations in this country and their offshore investments made through New Zealand.\u201D It also states: \u201CBanks also use cross-border financing arrangements, funded by debt, to generate income that is not subject to New Zealand tax.\u201D, and that is a very worrying thing. It continues: \u201CThe banks then claim a deduction for the interest expenses on the resulting debt, which reduces their New Zealand tax liability.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003ELast night the Hon Bill English, former leader of the National Party, former Minister of Finance, former Minister of Health, and National\u2019s current spokesperson on education, made a very interesting admission. He said that National had taken the people for granted, and that Labour has, too. That is what that member said last night in the debate on the performance and current operations of Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises. I believe that that was a very honest admission. The member was being honest with us, and I think it is a very relevant comment in relation to this very bill that we are talking about tonight, the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EThe reason why I believe that it is a very relevant comment is that for the last 7 or 8 years, or even longer than that, New Zealand First has been highlighting this issue to successive Labour and National Governments. Month in, month out, and year in, year out, in this Chamber and at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, our leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and others in New Zealand First have highlighted this issue with the Government of the day. The question I ask is why nothing was done about this issue for such a long period of time. New Zealand First quite openly supports this bill, and I want to restate that support tonight, because the bill is a step in the right direction. It provides something that we have been highlighting for the last 7 or 8 years, or maybe even longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EIt is actually quite interesting that we are only 3 months out, I think, from an election\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249522600b68d49ff921da496d88161f2\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I don\u2019t know, we might be a month out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261ab72bc2a6040779ea83c626f9ca89a\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: We might be a month out\u2014say, a maximum of 3 months\u2014out from an election, and this Government feels, all of a sudden, the need to pass this bill under urgency. As I said, for years and years New Zealand First has highlighted and raised this issue with the Government. The Rt Hon Winston Peters started raising these kinds of issues right back at the time of the wine-box inquiry, and we have been constantly raising them ever since, and nothing has been done about it. We come to 2005, and a maximum of 3 months, or maybe a month or 2 months, out from the election, all of a sudden the Government feels the need to pass this bill through the House under urgency. I think it is quite telling and also very interesting that the Government is doing this at such a time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI said earlier that this bill introduces new thin capitalisation rules and other measures to stop banks from avoiding tax, basically\u2014if people want to interpret what I said earlier and make it pretty simple. To cut a long story short, this bill is introducing these rules to stop the banks from avoiding and wriggling out of their taxes. I think it is quite shameful, when we look at this bill and at what I was highlighting earlier on about National admitting that it had taken people for granted, and saying that Labour has, too. I think this is a very significant bill to highlight that fact. During Labour\u2019s last reign in Government, back in the 1980s, it sold Postbank for $678 million\u2014over 20 years ago\u2014and sold the Rural Bank for $687 million, and in the 1990s National sold Housing Corporation mortgages for $2.4 billion. Then we had the shameful, shameful sale of the Bank of New Zealand, which we all know came back to bite this country badly, and the country had to bail the bank out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E I think it gets even more shameful and scary when one looks at how much banks have earned over the many years since the successive Labour and National Governments opened up the banking industry to foreign-owned enterprises in the way that they did, and when one considers the way that some of these foreign-owned banks have treated the public of New Zealand\u2014the taxpayers of New Zealand. They have treated them with no respect whatsoever, by trying to wriggle out of the tax rules that are in place, and that is why we are speaking on this bill tonight. The ANZ National Bank had an after-tax profit of $680 million in 2004 and $713 million in 2003, and Westpac had an after-tax profit of $617 million in 2004 and $462 million in 2003\u2014gone, straight out of New Zealand. The Bank of New Zealand, which is the saddest one of all, I think, considering its history, had an after-tax profit of $471 million in 2004 and $548 million in 2003. The ASB had an after-tax profit of $316 million in 2004 and $278 million in 2003. The combined profit for all 16 registered banks was up 8.8 percent to $2.6 billion. The most worrying thing out of all of this is that the total assets among the main banks have increased 5.4 percent to $188.3 billion, led by ASB\u2019s $5.5 billion increase. Westpac\u2019s was $2.6 billion, and the Bank of New Zealand\u2019s was $1.7 billion, which, as I stated earlier, is one of the saddest stories, I believe, in our New Zealand economic history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI just want to read to members the Dominion Post article of 12 May in the \u201CBusinessDay\u201D section: \u201CIntense competition and a damaging shift by home owners into fixed-term loans have not stopped banks ramping up profits to a record $2.08 billion in 2004. Profits for the main banks were up $91 million or 4.6 per cent on 2003,\u201D. Then, one hears all these stories of these banks making billions of dollars since they were sold to foreign-owned enterprises, and one sees other stories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e80b88dc839e48eda875938341c4f709\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e80b88dc839e48eda875938341c4f709\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak to the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which is a bill typical of tax bills that Governments have been introducing into the New Zealand Parliament, I guess, most years. It is full of very complicated technical amendments to meet what are seen as various anomalies and loopholes in the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EBefore I turn my attention to that, let me just immediately respond to what I think were some fairly ludicrous remarks from the New Zealand First Party. If one had listened to the New Zealand First member, one would have heard him say that what is appalling and a matter of great concern is that banks in New Zealand are profitable. So I guess New Zealand First\u2019s position is that it would be wonderful if New Zealand banks were making no money, were unsound, and the value of their assets\u2014the last speaker was concerned that it had gone up\u2014were falling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ac69e1f1784cf8914eb4b9485109c1\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: We were there once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db108e15932a4b5a871324f6731aeb34\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: That appears to be the last speaker\u2019s position. I just say to the honourable member that, as Mr Duynhoven has said, that situation has actually happened in New Zealand. What happened? When banks fail, the effects have been disastrous. I still remember the effect of DFC failing\u2014a tiny bank and financial institution in this country. Did it have huge implications? Yes, it did, and innocent New Zealanders, whose only fault was that they were dealing with the DFC, found themselves wiped out. But New Zealand First would have us believe that that somehow is a better situation. Well, that is absurd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIt also needs to be said, because there have been certain remarks made about banks, although not so much by the honourable member\u2014remarks generally about this legislation\u2014that those banks in New Zealand that have taken advantage of some clever management of their assets, and have taken various steps, have actually done nothing illegal. Indeed, it became clear, and officials admitted it in front of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, that the banks had actually been to the Inland Revenue Department and received approval for those arrangements. It has never been regarded as in any way illegal or immoral for a taxpayer to seek to minimise the amount of tax that he or she pays. Although that New Zealand First member may be fairly silly and immature in his views on banking, I guarantee that he actually does not pay any more tax than he needs to\u2014unless he is even sillier than I think. If he personally sees nothing wrong with his minimising his tax, there is actually nothing wrong with the banks in New Zealand doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIndeed, I might even go further. One could argue that a strong banking sector is so important for a nation that we ought to be a little bit careful before we go pursuing it hard for income tax. When we actually look at what the banks have been doing in the last decade, we see they have been able to collect a large amount of money from overseas investors and lend it to New Zealanders because we have not been saving enough. Again, I hear people complain about that. Well, they should think about the alternative. Are they really saying they do not want our banks to lend on mortgages and the like in the way that they have done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHaving said that, let me now turn to the bill itself. The ACT party will not vote against the bill, and the reason is that most of these measures actually have been consulted on widely with the accounting profession, which sort of acts as the informal collector of tax for the Inland Revenue Department in New Zealand. They have been consulted on with the various organisations that are involved, and there is grudging support within the community for the measures, because they are needed for the integrity of the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHaving said that, and having also said that, for that reason, ACT will not vote against the bill, I say we are actually opposed to this type of tax legislation, because some of the measures contained in this bill are police-State powers. The Inland Revenue Department is given huge powers under this bill, and it is given those powers because it is quite impossible to collect the amount of tax that the New Zealand Government demands, without these sorts of measures. If these measures were appearing in any other legislation except tax legislation, the whole House\u2014even the Greens; well, maybe not; they tell me that they are so unworried about this sort of tax bill that they are not even going to debate it; perhaps I should not speak on behalf of the Greens\u2014every other political party except the Greens, would be outraged. They would be outraged at measures being put before the House that stated that civil servants were entitled to go into one\u2019s bank accounts, entitled to order one to produce documents, entitled to make declarations as to how much tax one has to pay\u2014and unless one can prove to the contrary, one has to pay it\u2014and also entitled to make arbitrary statements about how one\u2019s income should be dealt with, when, in fact, that may not have been what one had intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons that tax laws are getting more complicated is that we are in a global economy. Indeed, the banking system falls a bit into that\u2014these debt deals were done internationally. So the New Zealand Inland Revenue Department, to try to protect the tax base, is finding itself having to pass very complicated laws in order to try to pursue people\u2019s income around the world. I think that is an exercise in futility; that, in fact, the Government will fail. The Government will be able to collect the money from\u2014if I can put it like this\u2014the little people. It will be able to collect tax from those who pay wages and salaries, because the Inland Revenue Department can pursue such people. But if one has real money, then one has the ability to determine when one earned it. One of the problems the Inland Revenue Department has is that it is very difficult, when one talks about a large sum of money, to decide whether it is capital or income, and\u2014if people have the ability to move the money around the world\u2014when people actually earned it. The Government will never succeed, and what we will have is more and more legislation like this. This is 170 pages of tax legislation with police-State type of measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIt is time that we actually looked at some alternatives. Mr Duynhoven mentioned a number of European nations and their tax systems, but what he failed to mention was the spectacular success that the Eastern European nations that have just joined the European Union have had by simplifying their tax systems and adopting what are very low, flat rates of tax\u2014down to 16c. Of course, if we were to adopt a very low rate of flat tax down to 15c\u2014[Interruption] The member, who claims to be an inland revenue Minister, should start reading some of the literature. He would discover that nations that have done that\u2014and I went to a lecture in this city by a leading tax professor who was giving data on what had happened in those Eastern European nations\u2014have maintained their tax revenue. It has worked spectacularly well. They do not need to have junior Ministers passing legislation of the kind that the Nazis used to pass\u2014and I am not suggesting that the member is a Nazi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThis is a police State. These are police-State measures. People\u2019s basic liberties are taken away in this measure. Our House, as one can tell by the numbers, will blindly pass the bill, when the real solution is to go to a low, flat rate of tax and restore our liberties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002293b6666eb8fa4df3895844a353e9c256\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293b6666eb8fa4df3895844a353e9c256\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E That was an amazing speech, particularly the latter part, from a member of the House whose party has decided to vote for the bill. I just found the logic quite astonishing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnited Future will vote in favour of this bill. It does three major things. It sets in place new rules for the taxation of banks, as has been mentioned; it brings in a variety of tax-rule changes that have the effect of either reducing the quantum of tax paid by a business, or reducing the cost of tax compliance, and those are two things that United Future strongly supports; and lastly, it establishes tax adviser privilege to protect tax advice given by professional tax advisers, along similar lines to the privilege that has traditionally been extended to lawyers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI am one of two members in this House who is a chartered accountant\u2014the other one being Pansy Wong, who spoke earlier\u2014and I am pleased, indeed, to see that these changes are being made. It is really, if one likes, a kind of injustice that lawyers on the one hand, and chartered accountants on the other hand, are probably giving equivalent tax advice to their clients, and the lawyers are being protected by privilege, but the chartered accountants have not been, and it is good to see a level playing field established in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI shall make a couple of comments on those matters, and the first one is to talk about the taxation of the banks. I agree entirely with the Hon Richard Prebble that profit is the lifeblood of businesses, and banks are no exception. Therefore, it is good and healthy that they make profits. That is how they become successful and provide good services to their customers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI also agree with him that there is nothing immoral or illegal about any taxpayer taking action within the law to minimise his or her tax bill. Where I guess I probably differ from Mr Prebble, though, is in his conclusion, in saying that the banks had not used illegal means to avoid tax, because, as is well known through the media, there is a big dispute involving hundreds of millions of dollars between the Inland Revenue Department and the banks that is yet to be determined by the courts. It will be the courts, and they alone, when they have heard all the evidence, that will make a decision at the right time as to whether retrospective tax is owed. But these rules clearly set out the position for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn my days as a chief financial officer for a large corporation I was also expected to minimise the tax paid by the company, and I did that\u2014within the law, I might add. But in my role as a parliamentarian\u2014now a gamekeeper, rather than a poacher\u2014I do like to remind myself, when I am looking at these sorts of issues, that for example, a nurse working long hours in the intensive care ward in Wellington Hospital, or any other hospital in New Zealand, pays his or her fair whack of tax. They do that, as Richard Prebble has pointed out, because it is taken off them before they get it, through PAYE. Therefore, it is a matter of fundamental fairness that all New Zealand taxpayers should obey the law and pay their fair share of tax, and I do not think that that is asking too much of the banks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThat is essentially all this bill is doing. It is saying: \u201CLook guys, sorry, you had a go at this, but we\u2019re closing it off; we\u2019re changing the law so that in future you will just pay your fair share.\u201D We are not asking them to pay more than their fair share, or less than their fair share\u2014but just the right amount. I think that that is a completely worthy goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to touch on briefly is the part of the bill that deals with losses on buildings. This law change is designed to allow companies to deduct the residual book value of buildings on their books for tax purposes when buildings are destroyed through natural causes. But the committee received submissions, particularly from port companies, saying that that should also be extended to situations where buildings have come to the end of their useful economic life. In that situation also the building owner should be able to write off the residual amount and claim it for tax purposes. That is an entirely reasonable proposition. Therefore, the committee has recommended that the officials consider that issue as part of their ongoing depreciation review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EA similar matter came up in respect of dredging costs, also from the port companies. Under the current rules the initial costs of dredging are not permitted to be deducted for tax purposes. I believe that that is quite fundamentally wrong. As I mentioned, I am a chartered accountant and I happen to know that the idea of depreciation is to allocate the cost of an asset across the commercial life of that asset. When one thinks about a big hole being dredged to enable ships to go into the port, one is doing that to earn additional taxable income. Therefore, it seems to be fully consistent with general depreciation philosophy, if one likes, that those costs should be able to be capitalised and then depreciated in the usual way against the commercial, if one likes, stream of income that is arising from the asset that has been created: namely, the result of the dredging. I see no philosophical or tax principle why that should not be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E Therefore I led the committee to the recommendation, which Pansy Wong also supported, that we should also ask the Inland Revenue Department officials to re-examine that practice, to allow for the initial dredging cost to be capitalised and depreciated, but for subsequent dredging costs, as distinct from the first lot\u2014and putting aside the question of betterment\u2014to be allowed to be expensed. After all, when people dredge, the hole that they have made to get the ships in and to get greater depth and so on, gets filled in with sand and other stuff and they have to clean it out again, and that, to me, is no more than maintaining an existing asset and therefore should be expensed for tax purposes. I want to mention that we have asked officials to continue work on that issue, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThose are the only remarks I wish to offer at the second reading stage, and, as I mentioned, United Future will vote in favour of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab52043e45364c1da8ec8821d5ce4fce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab52043e45364c1da8ec8821d5ce4fce\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E This is an interesting bill, which National will be supporting. But there are some points that I think are important and that I wish to bring to the House\u2019s attention. The first one concerns the thin capitalisation rules for foreign-owned banks. Banks, in terms of their debt restructuring, have been able to claim the interest as a deduction, and, of course, foreign banks have not been contributing to the overall well-being and economy of this country. Page 3 of the commentary on the bill\u2014and I do not intend to read it out\u2014summarises, quite clearly, a position that has arisen over time. Just to highlight the point, the changes, as the Government announced in September, are expected to result in those banks paying around $360 million a year more in New Zealand tax. That is a significant amount, and it is one of the reasons\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f46d07354e4f9d8c8554d3039ebc6c\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s Labour going to do with it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea01686a7fc841c4a5d779c06626b0b7\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Pansy Wong, who is a chartered accountant and understands these issues, has asked a very good question. What will the Government do with that $360 million of extra tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022163723dea41b4188adc7fdda22d8b512\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Low-quality education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e7c01165e544d2da46f666ccd6dc09b\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it will squander it on some scheme or other, as it is very good at doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de3a579d8184bbc9fb1eb2c557daec9\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Hip-hop tours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d536066aac34167b3621b03042a9be5\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: There will be hip-hop tours, and it will be giving money for twilight golf. That money will be squandered in a number of other areas, with absolutely no accountability. However, the provision is a very good one. We are actually supporting it, in terms of the capitalisation rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe other areas I wish to comment on are the company tax rates and the personal tax rates. When we have very high personal tax rates, those who are paying the higher tax look for a way to minimise the risk\u2014to minimise the amount of tax they pay. That is human nature, and we see that happening with the personal tax rates up at 39 percent for those earning over $60,000. I remember Labour\u2019s pledge in 1999, that only 5 percent of people would be paying the higher rates, and now, of course, about 20 percent of people are paying those higher rates. It is the same with company tax. Paying tax is a disincentive to invest. We put tax on tobacco and alcohol, because it is a disincentive. This Government has taken the line that it will tax people more, and that becomes for people a disincentive to invest, to grow their business, and to do the things they like to do. The National Party is a party that would rather see money going into people\u2019s pockets\u2014let them choose what they will do with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIt really is interesting to note what sole traders whose taxable income is over the $60,000 figure are doing. Instead of paying tax at 39 percent, they are forming companies, because the company tax rate is 33 percent. So sole traders and partnerships, but mainly people on their own\u2014sole traders, sole proprietors\u2014are asking why they should pay 39 percent on their taxable income when, if they form a company, they can actually take out as personal drawings, wages, salaries, or whatever they want to call it, up to $60,000 of taxable income and pay tax at only 33 percent. And if the taxable income of their business is over $60,000, they will not actually pay it at 39 percent, because, as a company, they will have to pay only the company rate of 33 percent on the difference. That is common practice with small businesses. They are doing that as a means of having the money in their pockets and of beating the system, and it should not be that way. If we had a fair tax system across the country, then we would not find businesses trying to do exactly what I am saying is happening\u2014and I know it is happening, because there are numerous examples of exactly that rationalisation and restructuring. The law allows it to happen. Financial planners and management consultants who deal with the restructuring of businesses are saying: \u201CWhy pay 39 percent when you can actually pay 33 percent if you form a company?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe point I am making here is that although National is supporting this bill, there are certainly areas that the Government should be very mindful of. The Government could make it a lot easier on itself if it had a fair and equitable system, where taxes are there for a purpose\u2014not a system where money is taken with one hand and redistributed with the other. That is how socialist Governments work. They grab the money from one side, redistribute it on the other side, and make more people dependent. That is the welfare system. That is the socialist view. Well, we now see, as a result of the Budget the other day, that New Zealanders have seen through this. They want money in their pockets. They do not want a Government that thinks it knows best how to spend their money, that takes their money and redistributes it at a later stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d8893066c84683b8d5ee74c67c7e5c\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: But Labour\u2019s promising tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227952c7ea9b3346b28545bc34cb516ce3\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes, Labour will promise tax cuts, but we know how the Government has operated over the years. It has increased taxes, and in 3 years\u2019 time it will give people a reduction amounting to a measly 67c per week. Well, what an absolute insult to hard-working New Zealanders! It is an absolute insult to think that hard-working New Zealanders will get only 67c per week. This is a Government that says it will look after people. The figures are quite astounding, actually. If we look at the extra taxes people will be paying between now and 2008, when there will be a reduction, we can see that they have more than contributed, and a measly 67c per week reduction is absolutely outrageous. There is no justification for it, and I tell members that the Government will pay for that, because New Zealanders are seeing through it. They do not have a tax structure that reflects investment. There is no incentive and no initiative for people. There is nothing to reward the hard-working and enterprising New Zealanders who are out there making a dollar and, of course, are having to pay it over to this Government. That is the second point I wanted to mention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe third point is about the provision that states that accountants are to have the same status as lawyers. That is fine. We have two accountants\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1768c90516421d84baff9857d528e9\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Only two?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be4215236f654bcd8768d31b0de2dbf9\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Only two chartered accountants. There is Mr Gordon Copeland\u2014he was a chartered accountant\u2014and there is my colleague Pansy Wong, who has crystallised and articulated very well the argument about taxation. It is always good to have on our team a chartered accountant of her qualifications and experience. She said that accountants will have the same status as lawyers. It is in the provisions, and that is something we also welcome. This Government will have much to answer for in a very short time. New Zealand voters will see through the facade the Government keeps putting up. We will see that very, very shortly, and the Government will pay the price. In the meantime, the small changes that are reflected in this taxation bill\u2014namely in the thin capitalisation rules for foreign-owned banks\u2014are changes we are supporting, as well as the other provisions. We will be voting for those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e88199bb43c44db394f112ed3d233cd0\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3d24f9d840f439ba0ef05d0fc5e5d81\u0022\u003ECorrection\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffef27bbb9f54e86b5494bb0e4d24dad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffef27bbb9f54e86b5494bb0e4d24dad\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to amend the vote taken on behalf of the National Party on the third reading of the Tariff (New Zealand - Thailand Closer Economic Partnership) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbf13b6ecd294894b23bd45bc77769fe\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to amend that vote. Is there any objection? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e67c66a4a6a4f75b576da96038a1c2d\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I incorrectly cast National\u2019s vote as 27; it should have been 24.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022609adf71f8874fa393b01422a853db9a\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. That has been recorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224db6c672cab545bab616d9dfebcba623\u0022\u003ETaxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022676e6e840d554ed5bb0eb845a1e38929\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000842\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e68b71fcb2ea48339c20d8e6c826298d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e68b71fcb2ea48339c20d8e6c826298d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I did not intend to take a call on this bill, but two previous speakers have tempted me to do so. First of all, I would like to clarify what my honourable colleague Craig McNair said. Obviously, Richard Prebble missed his point completely. I just thought that, well, age overtakes us all, and he misunderstood totally what my colleague had been saying. Of course New Zealand First expects banks to make a profit. We do not put our money in banks so that they can lose it totally, and for the Hon Richard Prebble to imply that New Zealand First thought otherwise is totally wrong. We want banks to make a profit. But I make it perfectly clear to the member that the sad fact of life is\u2014and this is what concerns New Zealand First\u2014that the major banks, the trading banks, are all foreign owned. If we cannot run a bank in this country, then what can we run? It is just a building we go into to deposit money. That is oversimplifying it, but we should be able to run our own banking system very, very successfully, and, indeed, make a profit out of it. It is a sad fact of life that the trading banks in this country are all foreign owned. As we have heard members say\u2014and very eloquently by the United Future spokesperson\u2014banks are not paying their fair share of tax, so we support the amendments in the bill that address that anomaly. I listened intently to Lindsay Tisch\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6b45d98fd33497aa0b24dc4686f8987\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Great speech!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228289afe525d34f4f8072d24ada9c1779\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It was a good speech. The only problem is that it was not very accurate. But never mind; it sounded good. He said that people are forming themselves into companies to avoid paying the 39c tax and pay only the 33c tax. That might be true, but, equally so, there are considerable advantages in a sole trader forming a limited liability company, particularly if he or she is taking a commercial risk. I suggest that that is a more valid reason to form a company than doing so to avoid the element of taxation that Lindsay Tisch spoke about. Nevertheless, that is a valid reason for forming a company. There is a cost in forming a company, and it is a valid reason. If one can minimise one\u2019s tax liability, then fair enough. But I would say that the major reason that people are forming limited liability companies is that there are a good deal of advantages in doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI would like to clarify that New Zealand First would like to give the public in general some tax relief. We would like that. But we are also committed to having more police. We think that the police force in this country is undermanned, and considerably undermanned. Can I use the word \u201Cundermanned\u201D in this politically correct environment? \u201CUnderpersonnelised\u201D does not make sense, so \u201Cundermanned\u201D will have to do. We want more police. We want more cops on the beat and in all sorts of areas. We want a significant increase in police numbers, and that will cost money. We want to give tertiary students a living allowance, because it is about time that we looked after them equally as well as we look after somebody on the dole. Right now a person on the dole gets funded by the taxpayer but a student does not. Students have to borrow for their funding. We want to put more money into roading, without tolls. I see Mr Cunliffe looking at me. We do not believe it is necessary to have tolls. We want to divert the money that goes into the Crown account into roading, and we want to enhance roading in rapid order. We are not into this 10 to 20-year plan; we want to fast track it. We know how it can be done. We want not only to inject more money from the Crown account into the roading account but also to structure either Land Transport New Zealand, or Transit New Zealand, to have more commercial thrust and to borrow money to get roading cracking. We know exactly what needs to be done and how it can be done within the time frame. [Interruption] Good, the member is with us there. The economic benefits to this country in fast-tracking roading are absolutely huge\u2014almost beyond belief. So there is a degree of urgency about injecting more capital into roading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe want greater investment in health. If we look at some of the countries in Europe where 9.5 to 10 percent of their GDP goes into health\u2014but it includes the private sector\u2014we see that they have a far better health system than ours. I mean by that that per capita they have more doctors, more hospitals, more hospital beds, better access to modern drugs, and better access to modern technology. We must put more investment into health. We have an ageing population, and that problem is not going to walk away from us. The older we get in this country, the more demands we will put on our health system. We have barely kept pace\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d033e2b41e9c4b16911800df79949189\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: More than a 50 percent increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc792ac8c98148b98aeb6f83f62d88ba\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know whether the member knows what he is talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022790ede65c0a34273ac388f4bab26bf3f\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Has the member not looked at the figures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219cb057a9088494ea41d172891c39d63\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I have looked at the figures very, very well. The Government puts a paltry 6 percent of GDP into health\u2014a paltry 6 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a00772a8f974eefa917275bae748219\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: A 50 percent increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218554c184b1f4c25b1cb4a522cff167c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Six percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219f54c0668b647719bbdf47beb686cc1\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s having a senior moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f941d50aac241089a5868973f82d1e4\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs a tennis ball. New Zealand First wants to give some tax relief, some tax incentives, to new exporters. This country is dependent on exporters. It is dependent on trade, and we would like to encourage new exporters into the game by giving them some favourable tax relief in order to explore new markets and get things going. We want, and need, to put more investment into railways in this country. The $200 million that the Government is giving to ONTRACK will not be enough. Anybody who knows anything about the railways knows that it will not be enough. Another area that we would like to put money into\u2014well, perhaps not money, but we would like to create a favourable tax regime for it. I am talking about shipping, and it might surprise members that I have come out strongly on this, but it is something that is close to my heart. In this country we operate about nine coastal ships. We have no international shipping\u2014nothing going anywhere outside New Zealand\u2014and the coastal ships operating in this country are struggling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d0d77d8bb94ba6809b0dd664289212\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Do you support cabotage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a291ec8e2b944e59d8fc184666516aa\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not support cabotage, because cabotage adds a cost to users of ships, and it makes them less competitive. Cabotage is an area monopoly, and we do not support it. We support a favourable tax regime, exactly as the ships that service this country now get, so that our guys can compete on an equal footing with foreign shipping. If shipowners do not want to take it up, then we are none the worse off; but if they take it up, it will be a huge advantage for this country. This is an island country, and, believe it or not, 99.5 percent\u2014and anyone can check me on this\u2014of all cargo tonnage that comes into or goes out of New Zealand comes and goes by ship, and they are all foreign ships. That is a disgrace for an island nation tucked down at the bottom of the world. Then after we have delivered on those, we will give tax cuts to the general public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293326668901648c3a3a1fd3bd5fa71de\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2202b5423c4ffea1b9429b8bd3efa7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There might be a little wait, but at least the public will see the benefits of what we are trying to do. The member laughs. If her party comes to office, it will give tax cuts at the expense of health, at the expense of police, and at the expense of education. We are not into that. We support this bill. It is a move in the right direction, but there is a lot more to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002256860584e61e4cbdba2046ab0e26b22d\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3b36abc6ac24ccb9d4e5a8a55774f74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3b36abc6ac24ccb9d4e5a8a55774f74\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0931952ce164c938f7c0fd130b24ced\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022398d948d652b4740b56ef2765c7b1eb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022398d948d652b4740b56ef2765c7b1eb8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the Committee to take the bill as one question and to have a wide-ranging debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00227228f4c96b614ce08472980ec9dd6dc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227228f4c96b614ce08472980ec9dd6dc4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ea6273df968406c8a2747d395cec7b1\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00228ad5cadec61f476fa379d451579fcd73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ad5cadec61f476fa379d451579fcd73\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E As various members mentioned in their second reading speeches, this legislation contains three major issues. I would like to start with one of the most high-profile issues that this legislation seeks to address, which is the thin capitalisation provision. That means that a foreign-owned bank would have to measure its equity financing against a yardstick of 4 percent. I understand that the Inland Revenue Department has carried out individual negotiations and consultations with the various trading banks. I must say that National is sceptical as to whether the annual taxation revenue will increase by $360 million. We all know, as my colleague Lindsay Tisch and various other members have pointed out, that if there is a high income tax break, then people and entities can prepare themselves for that, with tax consultants and tax lawyers all trying to minimise the tax paid, and that that is legitimate. There are legitimate ways to minimise tax payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut there is a further complication to this issue. The bill went into a lot of technical provisions to establish the formula to calculate the equity, etc. The Finance and Expenditure Committee deliberations were quite interesting. We were looking at Supplementary Order Paper 337 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, which was brought to the select committee, and the Inland Revenue Department pointed out correctly the complicating issue about financing instruments. New types of debt instruments are being created every day. The Inland Revenue Department first came to the select committee to seek the regulatory-making power to declare whether a certain new financial instrument would be classified as debt or as equity. It was just as well that we had help from the regulatory select committee, which brought it to the attention of the Finance and Expenditure Committee that the original Supplementary Order Paper contained powers that were too wide. It was almost as though Parliament was giving away the power of determining the taxation level to the Inland Revenue Department, and the department concurred with that advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to take a call to assure us\u2014because Supplementary Order Paper 378 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen is very technical in terms of its drafting\u2014that indeed that Supplementary Order Paper now contains a provision that does not subject Parliament, in a de facto sense, to giving away the power to set the taxation rates because the department can determine whether an instrument is a debt or an equity. We have given the department a narrow power, because we appreciate that the banking and commerce sectors will come up with financial instruments, and will need clarification of their status from the department in a relatively short time. So I want the Minister to take a call to assure us that the amendments on that Supplementary Order Paper, in terms of that regulatory power, do nothing but simply clarify whether a financial instrument is regarded as debt or as equity. Members can appreciate that, with a bill of 170 pages that contains a lot of technical provisions, the select committee relied on the officials to understand it and to preserve the integrity of the intention of the bill\u2019s provisions. I want to make sure the Minister can assure us that we have not given away the power of Parliament\u2019s right to set the taxation level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI will now move away from the thin capitalisation rule. I also want to point out that we do welcome the provisions for deductions, for example, for expenses relating to patents, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022996cf54568e649c4b19ba7050ddeaca6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022996cf54568e649c4b19ba7050ddeaca6\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a call to talk about the thin capitalisation rules. First of all, I want to highlight to the Committee that what I said earlier in my second reading speech was misrepresented by Mr Prebble. I have no problem with banks making profits. Obviously I am very supportive of banks making profits. Any business needs to make a profit to survive, and obviously that is just a statement of fact. I have no problem with that. What I do believe\u2014whether or not Mr Prebble thinks it is an immature belief, a young belief, or a junior belief\u2014is that there are certain strategic assets that should be kept within New Zealand hands. The facts are that most New Zealanders agree with my view in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cfd5fb7b6a7453693cc642bf5e3444b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: So do most of them bank with a local bank, or an Aussie bank?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e9d1f989e3496592a1f3aaa8bb87a2\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Smith from the National Party asks why most of them bank with an Aussie bank; but when only one or two banks in New Zealand are owned by New Zealand, and the other 15 or 16 are owned by foreign-owned enterprises, it will probably stay that way until more time passes. Kiwibank is growing and, hopefully, the tide will turn in that regard over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI do not want to focus my whole speech on what Mr Prebble said, but I was interested that he said that this is police-State legislation. Towards the end of his speech, I honestly thought he would vote against the bill, but he said he would vote for it. I do not know whether I am allowed to ask this, but I would like that member, when he next speaks, to clarify his position on that. It would be informative for the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EWe are debating the new thin capitalisation rules on stopping banks from avoiding certain tax that really should be paid. A lot of companies, foreign-owned and New Zealand - owned alike, are in that situation. I agree that it is in human nature to find the best way to pay the least amount of tax, but regardless of whether that is wrong or right, what I stated was that for the last 7 or 8 years, New Zealand First has been highlighting the issue of unpaid tax and that it needed to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EIt may be 7 or 8 years too late, but tonight we are debating the issue. I am proud to be in a party that has highlighted that issue for many years now\u2014which, I believe, is a triumph in its own little way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EGiven that we are talking about tax and money earned, I think it was disappointing that Westpac joined other Australian-owned banks in not paying imputation to Kiwi shareholders. That highlights the fact that there are certain strategic assets that, I believe, should be kept within the hands of New Zealanders so that those banks can make decisions in the best interests of New Zealanders because to do so will be in their own best interests. The Australian-owned banks are doing what is in their best interests. I guess some people would say that they cannot really be blamed for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00223c34ec48d91a4144b8c54c913b4bba9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c34ec48d91a4144b8c54c913b4bba9b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have say to the honourable member that that speech was even more confused. If I understood him correctly, he criticised Westpac and said that certain assets should remain in the hands of New Zealanders. Westpac used to be the Bank of New South Wales\u2014I think it was formed possibly even before New Zealand was\u2014and now the member appears to be saying he thinks it should be confiscated. I think he should think through his positions. He did make one reasonable point: given my strong speech against the bill, why am I not voting against it? Perhaps I did not explain it to him clearly enough. Given the complex nature of our tax laws, if we are to keep an integrity to it, then these sorts of laws are inevitable. We have thin capitalisation rules for other entities. Is there a particular reason why they should not apply to banks? No, there is not. So for that reason, the ACT party will reluctantly vote for the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ELet me give the member an example of the arbitrary powers that exist. I turn to clause 110, \u201CCancellation of registration\u201D, which is a simple example. Clause 110 allows the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to cancel the GST registration of a non-resident. Perhaps that does not worry the New Zealand First Party, but non-residents, like New Zealanders in Australia, do not get treated like that. Is that a police power? Yes, it is, because the commissioner, who is a civil servant, is able, under this measure, purely at his or her own whim, to cancel the GST registration of someone just because that person is not a New Zealand resident\u2014and we will trust the commissioner to do it properly. Well, I do not know; I just do not like that. I think one should never have any right that one has\u2014and the right to be able register for GST could be quite a valuable right\u2014removed except by process of law by the courts. But we have this measure, and the reason it is inevitable that we have to have it is that we have such a complicated tax system that in order to make it work, we need police-State measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThat is the point I was making to the honourable member. I am saying that if we continue to collect this much tax, if we continue to have an escalating tax system, and if different taxpayers continue to be treated in different ways, then, because people think that that is arbitrary and unfair, we will inevitably end up having police-State measures. The Australian tax system has it, so does the British system, so does the United States. Any country that has an escalating tax system that treats different taxpayers in different ways according to arbitrary rules\u2014and I was trying to say to the member that it is an arbitrary rule to determine that something is capital or income\u2014ends up with these sorts of police-State measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI am philosophically opposed to giving those sorts of powers to unelected civil servants, even if they have the highest integrity. That is why I say to the member that as a general principle, we as a House ought to be starting to have a look at these tax laws, and starting to ask ourselves what sort of country we are creating and whether there is a different way of doing it. Of course, there is. We just have to go to a low flat rate of tax. Then everyone is treated the same and there are no exemptions, and we would not have to hand the Commissioner of Inland Revenue police-State powers in order to be able to collect the revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EPerhaps the member is right. Perhaps, for that reason, I should vote against the whole of the legislation. I thought about that, but I thought the New Zealand First Party might then go around the country\u2014of course, that member would not, but his leader might\u2014and say I was trying to do special deals for foreign bankers. I am not. I want everyone, including banks that are foreign-owned, to be treated in exactly the same way. So I thought it would be safer not to vote against the legislation and, instead, speak against it vigorously in the hope that I might educate the honourable member so that he could see that there are some real reasons why this House ought to be concerned about the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI make this prediction, and I am sure the Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe, will not disagree with it: next year, no matter which party is the Government, we will see a similar bill that will probably also be 170 pages long and will also give the Commissioner of Inland Revenue arbitrary powers\u2014and this one is an arbitrary power, because under that provision he can cancel the GST registration of anyone who is a non-resident New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6ccf1de5e80401992393289b6da1984\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6ccf1de5e80401992393289b6da1984\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E It is absolutely appropriate that in the last few weeks of this parliamentary session, we are debating tax law. When the New Zealand public go to the polls, issues of tax will be at the forefront of their minds. They know that in the term of this Government, the amount it gets, by hook or by crook, out of the pockets of hard-working New Zealanders, has gone up from $34 billion when Labour came to Government, to $50 billion this year, and by the Government\u2019s own estimates, by 2009 it will go to $60 billion. The spending appetite of the Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe, and the members opposite\u2014[Interruption] David Benson-Pope, the famous tennis player from the Government benches, is getting a bit upset that I dare suggest to him that the tax increases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1e52f6f933044d9b5187f47a821fd11\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: That member is unbelievable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260a8c71e386048d599c571ed33cbf586\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Barker or Mr Benson-Pope what justification there has been for increasing the taxes by $7,000 for every single household. I can understand that Rick Barker and David Benson-Pope are getting upset. They know that the electoral guillotine is coming along. They know that the electors out there have had enough of the tax-and-spend policies of this Labour Government. Those electors are struggling to meet their family bills, and the extra $7,000 a year that every household is having to pay in increased taxes is one reason why this Government will go down the tube in a few weeks\u2019 time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI am disappointed that in this bill there is no reduction in taxes. Every New Zealander knows that the Government is bursting at the seams with money. The Government boasts a $7.5 billion surplus, so why will those meanies on the Government benches not let working New Zealanders have a little bit of their hard-earned cash? What is it about the members opposite that they believe they are so smart and so brilliant that they can spend hard-working New Zealanders\u2019 money better than New Zealanders can? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9cbeec78c6242208a53d3ebb9e5776c\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: We are!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b3ca81dbf1476e8bfcfff699f1de3e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I just heard the interjection from the member for Te Tai Tonga. He said that yes, the Government can. How does he justify taxing my constituents an extra $7,000 per household? Suddenly he is silent. He cannot justify it, and that is why he knows that a tax cut for working families is what we should be giving in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut I am also amused, because clause 11B provides for the tax deductibility of failed or withdrawn resource management consents. That is an issue David Benson-Pope should be interested in. It costs New Zealanders who are putting up with the bureaucracy of the Resource Management Act tens of thousands of hard-earned dollars, and all Labour can offer them is a tax deduction. We on this side of the Chamber say that we should fix the Resource Management Act. Let us make sure that businesses and private individuals are not having to spend huge sums of money on failed and withdrawn resource consent applications. Would that not be a smarter policy proposition? What is gained by those hard-working New Zealand families and businesses having to apply to create wealth for New Zealand, to put a garage on their house, or maybe to be able to expand their business? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI remind the member opposite that the Forest Industries Council says that 20 new forest processing plants are being built in Australia as we speak. How many are being built in New Zealand? Not one. The only one we have is in Thames, which is in the very good member Sandra Goudie\u2019s electorate, and that is being appealed by the Government. That is why members on this side of the Chamber say that the first thing a National Government will do is reduce taxes. You bet that we will bring in a tax bill\u2014one that reduces taxes for ordinary New Zealanders, and does not increase them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe have carbon taxes. The Government has increased income taxes and petrol taxes. National\u2019s tax spokespeople have identified 34 increases in taxes that this Government has imposed on hard-working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e164a1377c045eea967867f4eb737a1\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: No one believes you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f55a04ac4c54992aad68c00757d0912\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I say to Mr Benson-Pope that if that is the case, why did 80 percent of the New Zealanders who voted in the New Zealand Herald poll on tax say that they prefer National\u2019s policy on tax over Labour\u2019s policy, when we have not announced it yet? I say that again: 80 percent of New Zealanders prefer National\u2019s tax policy over Labour\u2019s, and we have not yet announced it! That says what New Zealanders believe. It says that they know that this Government is taxing the heart out of ordinary, working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIt is interesting. Even Jim Anderton, a member of this Government, has signed up to the view that taxes need to be reduced. Even United Future members, Labour\u2019s bosom buddies in Government, have said that the Government is taxing too much and needs to reduce taxes. Why is it that the only parties left in this Parliament that want to keep putting up taxes are the Labour Party and what I call the \u201CWatermelon Greens\u201D? Although they are green on the outside, they are good old plain red socialists in the middle. Only those two parties stand by Labour\u2019s policy of continuing to increase taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EOne of the very first bills from an incoming National-led Government will be a tax relief bill. That will be one of the first things we do. One of the second things we will do is to fix the Resource Management Act. We will not have this bumbled amendment from David Benson-Pope\u2014an amendment that has just been rubbished in the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It is the sort of resource management bill that we have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022effdd72ba78a4d34a62e82d3e2ea5017\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: The select committee approved it. They thought it was great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fdee1866e0d4788bafdde579a01e67e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder whether David Benson-Pope stands by his view that no longer having de novo hearings in the Environment Court is a good idea. [Interruption] Is it not interesting? David Benson-Pope says that the most significant change in his resource management bill is the removal of de novo hearings in the Environment Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bbd7c4e5743415fb1976e10ba62ecba\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the whole story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c22a9e0223d4a6e9b24268d9db353b2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That is what the member said. I seek the leave of the Committee to table a press release from Mr David Benson-Pope, dated 14 February this year, in which he said that the most significant change in his resource management bill was the removal of de novo hearings in the Environment Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e3b9f115b72474aa6e06a4a59f0a8e2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227202db13b9e84dd388a807c8bd381de6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Benson-Pope does not want to table his own press release in the Chamber, because it is garbage. There is as much truth in his own press release as there is in his claims to this Parliament about what he did with tennis balls when he was a teacher at an earlier time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u2019s resource management bill is a disaster. It is a flop. Even his own colleagues have abandoned his key reforms, and not until we get a National Government will we get the sorts of resource management reforms that are required. That is why I again draw the attention of the Committee to clause 11B. The only thing that Labour is promising in respect of the Resource Management Act is that if people get dorked in the process and lose their money, they can reclaim it in their tax return. That is as good as it gets. Nothing is said about the lost opportunity and lost wealth. All people will get is a tax deduction. National will do far better than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is a disappointment. As has so correctly been said, when we are taxing the heck out of New Zealanders, we continually have to have bills of this sort to try to knock all those New Zealanders who try to avoid the capricious tax that this Government is imposing on them. We need a change of Government so that we get a reduction in tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022adc4a93103ff4cd48d9ac6878c742bd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adc4a93103ff4cd48d9ac6878c742bd1\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E As others have mentioned, a significant part of this bill deals with the thin capitalisation rules, to ensure that foreign-owned banks in New Zealand pay their fair share of taxation. As I said earlier, we are not asking them to pay any more than their fair share. But I am afraid that I cannot buy into the rather sunny, utopian philosophy that has been voiced on this issue by the Hon Richard Prebble of ACT. He has just been joined in that sunny optimism by the Hon Nick Smith of the National Party. Both members correctly defined the problem: that we have to pass these huge tax bills. In fact, there are two of them every year, each about 160 pages long, so we are churning out tax law at the rate of about 320 pages per year. I agree that that is a bad thing, and I think that their analysis is correct in that regard, but I do not think they have come up with a solution to the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E If we buy into the argument that a flat tax rate of, let us say, 20c in the dollar would mean that businesses would no longer endeavour to avoid paying tax or to minimise their tax bill, I think we are dreaming. As someone who, as I mentioned, has worked in the sector, I know that any self-respecting tax adviser to a big corporation does not really think he or she has done a good job unless the corporation ends up paying no tax whatsoever. That view will continue to be held, regardless of whether the tax rate is 20c in the dollar. I do admit, on the basis of human nature, that the motivation to minimise tax is greater the higher the tax rate is, but I simply dispute the optimistic view that if we had a rate of, say, 20c in the dollar, that would somehow magically remove the need for bills such as this one. It certainly will not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe other thing I have been surprised by in this debate is the announcement by Peter Brown that New Zealand First will cut taxes. It has taken New Zealand First a long time to make that announcement, and it almost sounds like a deathbed conversion. Anyway, New Zealand First joins the ranks of all the parties in Parliament, with the single exception now of the Labour Party\u2014because Nick Smith is wrong, is he not? The Greens do have a tax reduction policy; they want to make the first 5,000 bucks earned by every taxpayer tax-free. Is that right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a19fafbc9e47afb5547a214cf3aba8\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022839ca555262e476d96dd5f1ca2fc9238\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: Every single party in this Parliament except for the Labour Party now believes that the time has arrived for Kiwis to get some tax breaks and some tax cuts. So I think the New Zealand First announcement tonight is quite momentous from that point of view. Although New Zealand First is a johnny-come-lately, at least it has finally got it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022addfa48550064a25a25742efab69da42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022addfa48550064a25a25742efab69da42\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting to hear the last speaker correctly announce that even the Green Party is in favour of tax reduction. We are here tonight debating the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It is yet another complex pile of bureaucratic socialist engineering to try to outwit clever lawyers, accountants, and tax people, when all of it is unnecessary. One simple question that has been put tonight is yet to be answered. This question has been put many times over the last couple of sittings of Parliament and is yet to be answered: why not avoid it all, by just lowering the tax rate and taking out the incentive for those who invest so heavily in trying to get around the New Zealand tax system? Why is that question not answered? The reason is quite simple. It is that the Labour Party and all socialist parties fundamentally disagree that one can lower the tax rate and still provide basic services at the level people have come to expect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EYet all the evidence in New Zealand, from our own experiment back in the 1980s, was that when the tax rate was lowered, the actual tax revenue went up. I see a former Minister from that period in the Chamber, and I am sure that he will agree with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a03ad0f97fe84785a0beb3e333882411\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a42af3e7d648b786b4d4f0faf05319\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly what happened. The members on the Government side of the Chamber\u2014and I see a couple of current Ministers having a little conversation in the back\u2014should pause for a moment and listen to this, because clearly it is news that has never ever made it to their ears. It is just too logical for them to understand it\u2014too simple. When the tax rate was lowered in the 1980s, tax revenue went up. More tax was paid. Far less was spent on consultants. There was far less need for this kind of bureaucratic nonsense to try to stop those who would use various tax loopholes\u2014tax provisions is probably a more accurate way to describe them\u2014to get around the taxation system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHere in the New Zealand Parliament tonight we face a situation that is absolutely unique. Never before in the history of New Zealand have we had a situation like this. That is, we have surpluses that are higher than ever before in this country, no matter how we measure them. Whether we measure them on a per capita basis, or on an export dollar basis\u2014whatever measurement we use\u2014at the moment this socialist Government enjoys the highest surpluses New Zealand has ever seen. Yet at this stage, with those revelations\u2014and clearly they must be revelations to the Government\u2014and in these circumstances the Government still cannot see its way clear to having a lower tax rate for all New Zealanders, in particular for those they purport to represent. That is the most perplexing thing. The Government purports to represent hard-working ordinary mums and dads, yet it is that group that the Government is so disadvantaging through its taxation policy. I say to the Committee that I cannot understand for one moment why the Government will not listen to that kind of simple logic, when the evidence is overwhelming that lowering taxes will work and has worked before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI would like to talk tonight about a number of other areas of income tax. One of them is the whole notion that if a company is growing and prospering, then the State should take a bigger chunk of its profits and have a bigger say in how it operates. Effectively, that is what happens. Through passing copious piles of regulation and legislation, such as the bill we have before us, that is exactly what the Government does. The Minister of Finance effectively says to those companies that he is much better at advising them on what they should do with regard to the management of their businesses than they are. He has no track record to prove it. No Government in this country has ever had a track record to prove it. But despite all the evidence, the Minister of Finance believes that he and his advisers are in a better position to tell companies how to run their businesses than they are. So what the Government says is that it will take a higher percentage of their income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcf9871866ca4656bda4ee8494058db4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take the opportunity to respond to a couple of the questions that members opposite have raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe first came from Pansy Wong in relation to Supplementary Order Paper 378. Her question was whether the changes to the definitions there would change the underlying policy around equity and debt. The answer is no. The amendments were made at the request of the banks themselves. They provide some certainty and clarity, but the underlying policy will not change. The regulation-making power cannot be used for anything beyond clarifying those definitions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMr Prebble raised the issue of clause 110, which gives the Commissioner of Inland Revenue discretion to deregister non-residents who do not carry on a taxable activity in New Zealand. Mr Prebble described that rule as akin to those in Nazi Germany. It seemed a long stretch of the imagination, because what that provision in fact does is clarify that someone who is not carrying on a business in New Zealand, and essentially is not incurring any input costs to defray GST on, should not be able to take the GST margin as a final profit because he or she does not operate in New Zealand. In other words, we are treating such people in the same way that we would treat any other business in New Zealand. It is entirely fair, and of course we must reject the suggestion of Mr Prebble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMr Nick Smith argued that this so-called greedy Government has seen its tax take go up, but he forgot to tell the Committee that, in fact, tax as a share of GDP has gone down. According to the OECD, in the year 2000 tax as a share of GDP was 37.2 percent, and in 2002 it was down to 36.3 percent. [Interruption] The member has asked about the growth in GDP. It is true that under this Government GDP growth is nearly double that achieved by National when it was in Government throughout the 1990s. So part of the reason why tax as a proportion of GDP has fallen is that the economy has grown so quickly under this Labour-Progressive coalition Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMr Nick Smith argued that the Government was sitting on a $7.5 billion surplus. That simply does not wash. Kiwis know that whether they are in surplus or in deficit is determined by whether, after they collect their pay packets and pay the bills, they have got any cash left in their pockets. [Interruption] On a cash measure, that is right. In 3 of the next 4 years, according to the Budget, we will be in a cash deficit situation. In 2008 we will face nearly $3 billion of cash deficit. There simply is no pot of gold. For the ladies and gentlemen out there in radioland, National is spinning them a line. If National were ever lucky enough to be elected, which is looking increasingly unlikely, it would spend New Zealand into the kind of oblivion that Rob Muldoon left the country in last time Labour had to rescue it, in 1984.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ENick Smith argued that 80 percent of people prefer National\u2019s tax policy\u2014even though it has not got one. That is the highest number that National members will ever see, because when they finally unveil their policy and try to make the numbers add up, it will be very, very clear that they do not. New Zealanders know a swindle when they see it, and they will vote for the Government that has delivered solid growth and fiscal credibility for the last 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland said that Labour does not believe in tax cuts. Well, that does not square with the evidence in this year\u2019s Budget, because we brought in a nearly $2 billion business tax cut package. I will recall it for members. Fringe benefit tax thresholds were raised, provisional tax was eased, tax on actively managed funds was erased, tax on international migrants and venture capital funds was lowered, there was a small-business tax discount in the first year of operation, and there were tax cuts in the $3 billion Working for Families package. This Government has already cut taxes. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHe asked the key question\u2014and Mr Shane Arden is asking it again\u2014\u201CWhy didn\u2019t you just cut rates?\u201D, and that is a good question. The answer comes back to the central point of this bill, which is that if you just cut rates, the benefit would flow\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227688351fbb1e43e19f945a351e3042e1\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Prior to your assuming your position as Chairperson of the Committee, we had a most unpleasant exchange with your predecessor, which was all about members bringing the Chair into the argument. In the last minute, we have had three instances of gross breach by this very young Minister. If he could just be brought to order, we would be grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022805963cdda8748b384b467ccfde9f026\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising that point. The member is quite right, but I did not intend to interrupt the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea378ca01454cf5a056e687643f80bd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I shall endeavour to speak in the third person. The central question is why we did not just lower the tax rates. There are two key reasons for that. This bill makes clear that certain large banks are foreign-owned, and they have kind of forgotten to pay tax\u2014or enough tax\u2014for the last 5 years. If we lowered the tax rates, much of the benefit of that would flow straight to the foreign owners. It would not go to the hard-working Kiwi battlers, to the panel beater shops, to the farmers in Taranaki, to my constituents in New Lynn; it would go to the Sydney financial markets, like the $360 million of tax that three Aussie banks have forgotten to pay per annum\u2014and this bill is required to fix that. Do I care? You bet I care, because that adds up to the loss of an Auckland hospital every year, built from scratch, because those banks have hired smart accountants and lawyers to cheat the honest people of New Zealand of their hard-earned tax money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI say, ladies and gentlemen, that this bill is, sadly, necessary. It is moderate. It has even been agreed by the New Zealand Bankers\u2019 Association as a good basis for moving forward. Of course, I make no comment about individual taxpayers, but I regard it as sad but true\u2014and it goes back to New Zealand First\u2019s point\u2014that although making a profit is an entirely laudable and legitimate thing to do, being a good corporate citizen in paying one\u2019s fair share of tax is also a good thing to do. We regret that we have had to clamp down on this kind of corporate behaviour, but we make no apology for it. We do it for the sake of children and mums and dads in New Zealand who elect the Government to defend the interests of the little people from the Queen Street lawyers who are paid to enrich big foreign-owned business interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef89fb072bdf4208b62592472cb674c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef89fb072bdf4208b62592472cb674c9\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Before I get on to the populist nonsense that the Associate Minister of Revenue put forward, let me just go to a technical point. He suggested that what I had said about clause 110 is wrong. What is a way of settling that? Well, KPMG, which is one of the world\u2019s largest accounting firms, said this about clause 110: \u201CIf clause 110 is enacted, non-resident businesses engaged solely in taxable activities outside New Zealand may, at the commissioner\u2019s discretion, have their GST cancelled. The effect of this would place New Zealand at a disadvantage in attracting non-resident businesses, as non-residents would be treated less favourably. \u2026 The unilateral and retrospective cancellation gives potential for significant losses.\u201D I say to the Minister that that is an arbitrary use of power. I suspect this is the first time he has ever looked at clause 110.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen the Minister came up with an argument that makes me take back everything I said about the New Zealand First MP\u2014compared with the Minister, he is highly mature. The Minister told us that we cannot have a cut in tax rates, because if we did so, an overseas firm would be paying less tax. I say to the Minister that that may well be so, but his attitude also means that every New Zealander has to pay more tax just because this Minister is concerned that some overseas taxpayers will pay less. What a load of nonsense! That is exactly what the Minister said. Members can look at his Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIf the Minister wants to know why he will be in Opposition\u2014because I do not think he will lose New Lynn\u2014within the next 3 months, it is because the Labour Government, for ideological reasons, refused at Budget time to make a cut in tax rates that all New Zealanders thought was reasonable. He can try to tell us that the books are cooked, and that it is not really a $7 billion surplus. Good luck to him. I say to him that every New Zealander knows that this Government has been collecting record tax receipts, and that the average New Zealander\u2014the person who pays tax\u2014according to Treasury, is now in no better financial position after tax than he or she was 5 years ago. The country is more prosperous, the Government is much, much more prosperous, but not the people paying tax, because of the increased amount of tax they pay\u2014and people are paying more tax because inflation has put them in higher tax rates. In spite of the Minister\u2019s promise, or the promise made on his behalf, that only 5 percent of all New Zealanders were going to pay a 39c tax rate, I say to the Minister that now 20 percent of all New Zealanders pay it. Now people are being told that they have to pay 39c in the dollar, because if they do not,Westpac might get a tax cut. I would like to be on a panel with David Cunliffe debating that during the election campaign, to see what the average New Zealander thinks of that particular argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EBut let me make it quite clear to the Government the real reason, the 38,000 reasons, that Dr Cullen feels he cannot cut tax\u2014apart from his ideological belief in tax. He has increased the number of civil servants and bureaucrats in New Zealand by 38,000. He has a paper from Treasury, which has a lot of experience in how much it costs to employ civil servants, which states that, as a result of that, the Minister will be in deficit within the next 3 years. That is because the cost of employing those 38,000 people includes, of course, not just their salaries but also their accommodation, and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing about employing civil servants is that they actually cost more every year. Why is that? Well, out of that 38,000 about 1,000 will probably bring a personal grievance case against the Government next year. Another number will be pregnant. Another number will actually do some work\u2014they will produce some papers\u2014and then the Government will have to hire some consultants to look at the work that is being done. Every year they cost more and more money, and Treasury, which has a great deal of experience in these matters, has told Dr Cullen that he will be in deficit as a result of the 38,000 extra civil servants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThey are not actually producing any more hospital operations\u2014there are more bureaucrats, more costs, but no more hospital operations. We all know that the result of the extra bureaucrats is a scholarship system that is a disaster. They have not resulted in higher educational standards, and they have not resulted in the elderly getting better social services\u2014no, not a thing. But they have meant that the Labour Government feels completely unable to make any cut in tax rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThat is the real reason, I tell Mr Cullen; it is not because he is trying to catch the Westpac bank. The reason Dr Cullen cannot make a tax cut is that he has 38,000 bureaucrats who are not producing any more hospital operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecd7e5e02a2c494db8fc899fb59bba90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecd7e5e02a2c494db8fc899fb59bba90\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E My understanding, along with the understanding of 3.5 million New Zealanders, is that Wellington, the Beehive, and Dr Cullen are absolutely and utterly awash with cash. Every New Zealander believes that Wellington is absolutely awash with cash. But I have found out from Mr Prebble this evening that Wellington is awash with civil servants as well\u2014in fact, with 38,000 extra civil servants. It is no surprise that what was not an election issue 3 or 4 months ago is now an election issue\u2014that is, the fact that Wellington is awash with cash and it is time for some serious tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENow the Labour Government has put forward this bill, and the Budget a month ago made a tremendous offer to New Zealanders, which was 67c extra to spend in 3 years\u2019 time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b176ce218804118a4c14ec80b806e6b\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0d2fa13b9940f0b370687f1c305ffc\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is 67c extra to spend. I can see the galleries clearing; the people up there did not know they had an extra 67c in 3 years\u2019 time. Look\u2014they are off down the road to buy themselves a packet of chewing gum just to celebrate, and good for them! National thinks there should be some serious tax cuts on top of the 67c in 3 years\u2019 time, because Wellington is awash with cash, and every New Zealander knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to support Nick Smith, who was challenged by the tennis player opposite about the number of tax and levy increases over the last 5 years. I have a document that came out in August 2003, and it lists 24 tax and levy increases from Labour, which is the party that, members will recall, promised at the 2002 election there would be no new taxes. That is what it promised back then, but there have been 24 tax increases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EPerhaps members will remember the petrol tax increase\u2014that 4.7c plus GST increase that came along with road-user charges for diesel vehicles. That tax was up 30 percent. The second was petrol tax II, which of course we are seeing at the moment. The third was the threatened flatulence tax, which at the time was going to be 9c on sheep, 54c on cattle, and 72c on dairy cattle. Well, that one did not come to pass, because of political pressure. The fourth was that income tax went from 33 percent to 39 percent. Members will remember that, and the Hon Richard Prebble talked about that. Fringe benefit tax went up from 49 percent to 64 percent, and trust income tax, the sixth increase, went up from 19.5 percent to 33 percent. There was an electricity tax, and an increase in the tax on alcoholic beverages\u2014from $21 per litre to $38 per litre of alcohol. Members will recall a debate all night on the sherry tax. Dr Cullen decided he would stiff-arm the elderly; they could not go to bed with a sherry, because he whacked the tax up from $21 to $38 per litre of alcohol. He hit the elderly hard. He believed he was stopping young people from drinking high-alcohol beverages, but it was the elderly, sitting with their blankets over their knees in front of the heater and watching Coronation Street, who were the ones that suffered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMembers will recall that the ninth increase was the driver\u2019s licence renewal fee. Its cost went up, as did the costs of birth, death, and marriage certificates. I have never had so many emails on an issue as those from people concerned about the cost of those certificates going up significantly. The ciggy tax increased, so that the cost of a packet of cigarettes went from $7 to $8. And there were Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) levies, ACC motor vehicle levies, a petrol ACC levy, and the resident withholding tax. The 16th was an import fee, and the 17th was a Fire Service levy. Households\u2019 and motorists\u2019 levies went up 17.7 percent. A fishing-licence went up 10 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002284248230816042cda0cec6081aaa063a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284248230816042cda0cec6081aaa063a\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague Phil Heatley, who was only halfway through his speech, made a very valid point. We should look back over the last few years at the record of a Government that says it is looking after middle New Zealand\u2014that is what the Associate Minister of Revenue said; he said it is looking after hard-working New Zealanders. My colleague to my right, Phil Heatley, represents the area of Whangarei, and what a great electorate MP he is. Up in his area there are so many people who are in business, so many people who are enterprising and want a reward for their initiative, and what does this Government do? It sticks it to them\u2014absolutely sticks it to them. The Minister says the Government is looking after middle New Zealanders; well, I will mention some of the facts my colleague did not get to mention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EHe did not mention the carbon tax. Well, the carbon tax has come about because we have ratified the Kyoto Protocol. What does that do? At this stage, we do not really know, because of the implications of the carbon tax that is being introduced. But we do know that it will affect our international competitiveness. On the world stage, it will be difficult for us to compete internationally when two of our most significant trading partners, the United States and Australia, have decided not to ratify that protocol. That is the first thing, but let us look now at what the implications of the carbon tax are. At $15 per tonne of carbon dioxide emissions, that tax will be a compliance cost added on to all New Zealanders, not just those in business. What does it mean? It means that we will probably see a 4c per litre increase in the price of petrol at the pump, over and above the 5.6c per litre increase that we debated in the House about a month ago. Do members remember that one? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d54adaf53f2a49e88035570e3c6e69d1\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, tax No. 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221121993590f24699907438ca87fff6d8\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, there we are\u2014tax No. 33. On top of that we are going to have a 10 percent increase in electricity charges. Well, who will be paying that? I tell members that it will be the hard-working New Zealanders, the hard-working families. I am telling the Minister and the Government now that that is their death knell, because people are not prepared to accept it. The Minister had the audacity to stand up here and say Labour was the party that was going to give tax cuts, and that it was the party looking after hard-working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d972d6d0fefb4893829589eb54165004\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: 67c.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac160c85d5b401b84eb2b5d6975963f\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: That is 67c\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e102a03cd5644b0aa1425a65b5064fe7\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: In 3 years\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f869cab2c674a63887a93ff0a877f8c\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014in 3 years\u2019 time, so I ask Labour members what planet they are on. I tell them that they will be looking for another job shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ELet us look at the Holidays Act. Well, for those in business there are increased compliance costs of employing staff in the holidays. I was down in Queenstown at Queen\u2019s Birthday weekend, and do members know what was happening on Monday? Businesses were shut. Why were they shut? Because under this Government someone who works on a statutory holiday gets penal rates\u2014that is OK; we used to have penal rates, anyway\u2014but, on top of that, employers have to give a day off in lieu. It is double-dipping. So what are the firms saying? They are saying they cannot afford to pay the costs, and they just shut down. Who misses out in that arrangement? I will tell members who misses out: it is the employees\u2014the people whom this Government says it is looking after. They miss out because, at the end of the day, if the business does not meet the bottom line and make a profit\u2014the Government thinks \u201Cprofit\u201D is a dirty word\u2014the business cannot reinvest and cannot create jobs. It is as simple as that, but Government members would not know that, because they have never been in business. They have never invested a dollar, never put a dollar at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo what happens now is the Government introduces costs like the provisions in the Holidays Act concerning statutory leave and relevant daily pay, and people abuse the system to get extra money because they are having a holiday. Then we have the open-ended provision for bereavement leave that allows 3 days\u2019 leave for the funeral of a close relative and 1 day\u2019s leave for that of a close associate\u2014open-ended\u2014and we wonder why businesses are saying: \u201CEnough\u2019s enough!\u201D. That is what they are saying, and they come to National and tell us to sort it out\u2014and we will sort it out. I tell the Minister that we have a business policy that is attracting the attention of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022dab838eaf29d407f9075f25c10c28844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dab838eaf29d407f9075f25c10c28844\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking again in the Committee stage, I just want to raise a few points that some members have referred to concerning what my colleague Peter Brown and I have said on the issues raised in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I say to Mr Copeland, who said that he had never heard New Zealand First advocate a tax reduction, that for a long time, even since before the last election, New Zealand First has constantly talked about tax reductions. That has been in our policy for many years and we have talked about it in exactly the way Peter Brown talked about it in his speech. New Zealand First believes that once we prioritise our economic and social spending, we should look at a reduction in tax. That is what Mr Brown said, and we stand by that statement. Our policy even states: \u201Cfollowing the achievement of intermediate growth goals and focused social expenditure aim to reduce personal income tax levels;\u201D. That is pretty simple and clear, and we stand by it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022819fccf92d434b38a6805c7383f6f792\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: You are down to one finger now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df8ec33aa5fb4058a3950db6605c93f6\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is all right for \u201CMr 2 Percent\u201D over there to be talking about a one-finger campaign, but the fact is we are campaigning on the right issues, and the people of New Zealand seem to be happy with the direction we are going in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218c4487677c04b9f9b8bfa193ae75291\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member cannot refer to somebody as \u201CMr 2 Percent\u201D. The member must refer to other members by their full name, but in his speech the member called the member from United Future \u201CMr 2 Percent\u201D. I do not know of any member in the Chamber whose name is \u201CMr 2 Percent\u201D. I think the member should stand, withdraw that comment, and apologise to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f943815e25ac4b678bd2f80a5d23934b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising that. All members know that if they are referring to any other member in this Chamber, they are to use the member\u2019s full name, and if a member is referring to a party, the member is to refer to it correctly. But the member may not have been referring to anyone at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022339d17b800df4a409ea589743df4c726\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Our other policy concerning taxation is: \u201CUpon achieving short term growth goals aim to reduce corporate taxation beginning with a 20% tax rate for \u2018new exports\u2019 net income;\u201D. So the question that I come to as far as this taxation bill is concerned is where is the vision in this bill. I ask where the vision is for this Government to be taking our country down the track of high expenditure, with the growing numbers of civil servants increasing the State sector by 38,000\u2014as was just commented on. Where is this Government\u2019s vision as far as taxation is concerned? As Mr Tisch has just said, it is 67c in 3 years. We in New Zealand First say that is a stick of gum in 3 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EAnother issue that I want to speak about briefly is what the Associate Minister of Revenue was saying\u2014rightly so\u2014just a few moments ago about banks paying the appropriate amount of tax. He was very passionate on that issue. I am glad to see that he was passionate on that issue, but New Zealand First is asking why the Government was not passionate on that issue 7 or 8 years ago, when we started raising it. The fact is we are approaching an election, and it just seems too coincidental that this Government is bringing this bill in under urgency in this way. We say it is incredibly ironic, and the fact is New Zealand First has been passionate about this issue for the last 7 or 8 years. The Minister was very passionate on the issue, and I was very impressed with how passionate he was, but the fact is the Government has berated New Zealand First for many, many years while we, year in, year out and month in, month out, have spoken against banks doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EWe have suggested different ways that we can stop those banks wriggling their way out of paying their taxes. I remember talking to an official when we were going through this bill. I asked him whether he thought that this bill would be it, and that the banks would put their hands up in surrender and say: \u201COK, we\u2019ll just start paying the appropriate amount of tax.\u201D He said they would try to find new ways to avoid paying tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u00227ad4067a50b44bf5b1a8d9ef8cdcadd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ad4067a50b44bf5b1a8d9ef8cdcadd5\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I just wonder whether a copy of the speech made by the member who has just sat down will be made available for purchase later. It was absolutely riveting stuff. It had the crowds in the rafters jumping up and down\u2014stunning!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b8ed98df07e42db8099cc022fc37fa0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. I am going to call someone who may, just by chance, speak to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d72634256e064724b1e498e813b92563\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d72634256e064724b1e498e813b92563\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairperson, I am pleased you have allowed me to take a call, because I want to focus on the seriousness of this bill. I want to focus on the tax bill before the Committee tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EToday I have had the privilege of actually being amongst real people, at the Fieldays at Hamilton. Thousands of people were there, and I was very interested to see that Dr Cullen and Helen Clark had made another significantly tactical error by having Helen Clark there to open the Fieldays. She was in the main arena at around 12 noon today, and she had assembled about 20 loyal Labour Party supporters and perhaps 100 passers-by. Helen Clark had the audacity to say at the opening that agriculture was the backbone of the economy\u2014and everybody laughed! Everybody laughed, because the people who were there had been talking to me about tax. The issue on everybody\u2019s lips at the Fieldays was tax. New Zealanders know they are grossly overtaxed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe have had Dr Cullen trying to control the argument for many months now by saying that New Zealanders are not grossly overtaxed, yet he had the audacity and arrogance to come into the House and actually recognise that New Zealanders are overtaxed, and to say that they needed a tax break. \u201CYep, they need a tax break.\u201D, said Dr Cullen. The Labour caucus had been briefed at 1 o\u2019clock that day. Labour members had nodded their heads and said: \u201CDr Cullen, you are on the right track. Go in there and offer them a tax cut. Go in there and offer them 67c a week.\u201D But there was a proviso. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022933095bc57fd41a3a1a4fd5d5b7e9309\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221661aa31ec004dba9a5f372d89f3a00e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: People have to hang around for 3 years before they get their 67c. Phil Heatley\u2019s contribution, when he wisely advised New Zealanders listening tonight not to spend their 67c all in one go, was important. Tax is an issue at this election, and tax is an issue because Labour has created it as an issue. It has grossly overtaxed New Zealanders. Phil Heatley mentioned 24 new taxes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bac53dbdc64b4c3b8f5210b1eeafdf7d\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 33!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220366bff9bf514589bcf2bf31e2614bfc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: My point exactly\u2014it was an old newsletter. Phil Heatley has been busy producing newsletters for a long period of time, busy trying to keep up with the rate at which the Government keeps imposing new taxes. The figure now is over 30 new taxes, and everybody down at the Westpac Stadium tonight watching that game had one thing on his or her lips.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221440be92e2c4e55abfea2b3e177ca5d\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad143dde6084257b59706df2de5ca01\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It was not the British and Irish Lions, and it was not Wellington; it was tax. People know they have been overtaxed and ripped off by this Labour Government for 6 long years, and even Dr Cullen notices it\u2014even Dr Cullen acknowledges it. He comes in here and audaciously, stupidly, and arrogantly says: \u201CYou guys have been pretty good. You\u2019ve paid your taxes. You deserve a tax break, so if you hang around for 3 years, we\u2019ll give you 67c a week.\u201D That is the issue at this election. We are debating this tax legislation today, but that is what people will focus on at the next election. They know that the Government has created a huge surplus of $7 billion. It is not a Government surplus; it is surplus taxpayer funds that have been collected over the last few years. It is money that the Government has collected and now is wastefully spending. That is what New Zealanders are focusing on. So I tell Dr Cullen, as we debate yet another tax bill, that he has created the environment for this election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMr Cunliffe is sitting in the chair, and has not taken a call while I have been in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a8263efbfe46b58e21c1b42f2a7320\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da1aa9a0aa264e1eb9c76dcf2b3d6423\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Not while I have been in the Chamber. He knows that he is beaten. He hangs his head dejectedly, knowing that he listened patiently to Dr Cullen, who normally delivers, but after that Budget he is trying to justify the generosity of giving people 67c\u2014provided people wait 3 years; we have to add that proviso. It is no wonder that 700 New Zealanders who went out of Auckland International Airport last week ticked Australia as their permanent place of residence now. The Australian Government managed to deliver substantial tax cuts. The Australians do not have to wait 3 years for 67c. That Government knows the importance of delivering tax cuts to an overtaxed country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022 data-id=\u00222d72b997b1404c9c914bc0c212d103e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d72b997b1404c9c914bc0c212d103e4\u0022\u003EKENNETH WANG (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is very, very frustrating for us, constantly debating this taxation bill. To me it is all about money-grubbing and money spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003EI would like to draw attention to the fact that this House has been sitting under urgency since yesterday, and before that we debated the Appropriation (2004/05 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. That bill has been debated and is in the past. But what was it about? It was all about giving legitimacy to this Government grabbing more and extravagantly spending more. This bill is another example of this Government grabbing even more. We say that if we had adopted a lower, flat tax rate in the first place as the ACT party has suggested\u201425c in the dollar\u2014there would be no need to sit here until midnight debating this bill and wasting taxpayers\u2019 money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003EI would like to draw attention to the fact that before Michael Cullen\u2019s 2005 Budget speech the public had already spoken. The National Business Review survey at the end of April this year showed that 63 percent of New Zealanders were looking for lower tax rates. They expected our Government to deliver. They expected our Government to listen. Unfortunately, we have a very arrogant Labour Government that did not listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003EI would like to comment on the Minister\u2019s statement that if we had a lower tax rate, it would benefit only those who are rich, the corporates, and foreign owners, who would grab our money and directly transfer it overseas overnight. But I would like to draw attention to the basic knowledge that in this country over 90 percent of businesses are small businesses. Those small-business owners have spoken. One needs only to look at the opinion polls. Business confidence has plunged to a 70-year low. Why? Do members think they are foolish or dumb? Of course one cannot say that; one would not dare to say that. But why does the Government still insist on a high tax rate? Is the Government going to label them all as rich, or foreign-owned corporates, or crooks? Of course, the Minister is shaking his head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003EI know that the reason for this Government taxing all and taxing more is only that it wants to spend more. Of course, there are 38,000 more civil servants. Under this Government, that is not a big figure. It expects to spend more. It wants to spend more on things like the hip-hop tour and the w\u0101nanga institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ca9c3e6b-0b6d-46d7-ba14-2ca250fbaa75\u0022\u003EEvery New Zealand family has also spoken out. Even Michael Cullen admitted earlier this year that the average New Zealand family\u2019s income, in real terms, is no better off than it was 6 years\u2019 ago. Those Labour members should not shake their heads; they should just look at the real figures. Those members can say: \u201CWe have a great plan\u2014the Working for Families package.\u201D, but the Government is not a machine to produce wealth. Where does the money come from? Tax and more tax. This Government knows how to do that very, very well. It should just remember where that revenue came from. It came from hard-working New Zealanders. It came from the 90 percent of business owners such as dairy owners, electricians, and plumbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022727adf0392b746da82b87f6e2f7f93c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022727adf0392b746da82b87f6e2f7f93c5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002252a195b8a70645f68e91bfd364bfd87c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252a195b8a70645f68e91bfd364bfd87c\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I congratulate the Hon David Cunliffe, the member for New Lynn, on taking a call before\u2014a very passionate call. What that young new Minister\u2019s call demonstrated overwhelmingly was two things. One is that there is no substitute for experience, and the other is that David Cunliffe does not have any\u2014he absolutely does not have any. I just say to that member that it was interesting to listen to him stand up and justify the Government\u2019s position, by saying that the way to defend poor hard-working \u201CJoe Hard-worker\u201D out there\u2014a traditional Labour supporter\u2014is to layer another tier of bureaucratic nonsense on top of him and employ another pile of bureaucrats, to add to the now 38,000 new bureaucrats and civil servants that this Government has employed. Somehow that will protect people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EBut what \u201CJoe Hard-worker\u201D will tell Mr Cunliffe, when he goes back to New Lynn, is that people have been told, and have read, that in this country we have had strong growth over the last 6 years. They have been told, and they have read, that the Government\u2014the Minister, the Hon David Cunliffe and his Government colleagues\u2014have a surplus like none other. They have been told that. Yet those hard-working small business people, or other hard-working New Zealanders, have never had it so hard. They are struggling. They cannot pay the school fees, cannot pay to get the 10-year-old Japanese import through the next warrant of fitness, and are struggling to meet their mortgage payments, so this Government is not working for them. The Minister will learn that when he goes back to his electorate in the election campaign that is coming up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe reason for that is very simple: this Government simply has its hands too deep in the taxpayer\u2019s pocket. There are 34 new taxes. I congratulate my colleague from Whangarei on his newsletter, which is now well out of date. It shows 24 new taxes and is a very important document. In fact, we may table it at the end of this debate, just to bring the Government up to speed with what it is doing. By the time that newsletter was off the print, another 10 new taxes had been added. This Government has introduced 30-odd new taxes. That is the reason why the good folk of New Lynn will tell the Minister, when he goes back there, that he is just too tough on them. And he is not delivering the services he promised, either. He said, and they believed him, that if they paid a little more tax\u2014were a bit more generous, and gave a few more dollars\u2014the Government would fix the health and education system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWell, what have people got? Three billion dollars more are going into health, but there are fewer operations. A whole pile more money will go into various educational courses, but with less end results there. We have 1,200 more bureaucrats in the education system alone. I have before me something quite interesting. I have a document with a photo of a person who looks very similar to the Prime Minister. I am not sure whether it is her, but it states: \u201CMy commitments \u2026 [are] No rise in income tax for the 95 per cent of taxpayers earning under $60,000 year. No increase in GST or company tax.\u201D Where does one go from there? The fact is that a huge number of the people who believed in that commitment have been let down. That is a broken promise, like none other we have seen in the history of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the legislation that we are debating tonight, we see a complex list of regulations to try to stop some foreign banks from using the taxation system, which has been designed by that Minister, to avoid paying their fair share of tax. No one will have too much sympathy for the banks that do that, and I accept the proposal the Minister has put forward in that regard. But here is a simple question for the Minister, which he did not answer, and on which there is overwhelming evidence: if he were to lower the tax rate and flatten the tax rate, would those banks go to the effort that they do now to avoid paying that tax, and would this regulation be necessary? The evidence in this country, if one goes back through history, is overwhelmingly that no, they would not make the investment they do, in terms of employing high-powered tax consultants, lawyers, and accountants, to get around the New Zealand system. The banks just would not bother; it would be cheaper to pay the tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002272cae4c1f7a047d1a547f0d6c4ff72a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272cae4c1f7a047d1a547f0d6c4ff72a5\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 378 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (9) the expression \u201C75C,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to, and clause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003ESchedules agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and the Privacy Amendment Bill (No 3), pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 379.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267babcff20f54779b5d1d8db2ca673ee\u0022\u003ETaxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267babcff20f54779b5d1d8db2ca673ee\u0022\u003EPrivacy Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226cedb63c478349b496c806a2e12a862d\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002220662b6a823345209b7c5d4af4e163c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220662b6a823345209b7c5d4af4e163c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Associate Minister of Revenue)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Revenue: I move, That the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and the Privacy Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe central feature of the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill is the introduction of important reforms designed to ensure that foreign-owned banks operating in New Zealand pay sufficient tax on their New Zealand incomes. Specifically, the bill strengthens the thin capitalisation rules to ensure that the income of banks cannot be sheltered by interest deductions arising from excessive debt. Banks must have enough capital in New Zealand on which no interest is deductible, to fully fund their overseas investments. The new measures will result in the more efficient operation of thin capitalisation rules in New Zealand, while giving greater protection to the New Zealand revenue base. This bill is around 170 pages long. Every year from foreign banks alone it will therefore protect about $2 million of revenue per page. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn keeping with the Government\u2019s commitment to the business sector, the bill also introduces a number of business-friendly measures, including a number of technical changes to the tax depreciation rules to improve their operation and reduce compliance costs. These include broadening the rules on tax deductibility for business environmental expenditure, such as the costs of preventing, remedying, or mitigating the discharge of contaminants. The bill will allow those costs, like other business costs, to be taken into account for business purposes. The other measures in the bill aim to improve the operation of tax law. Of interest to tax professionals, and in particular, chartered accountants, is the introduction of new measures to give greater clarity to the operation of a statutory privilege for those in the business of providing tax advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFinally, as a result of this legislation, a consequential amendment makes a change in a cross reference contained in the Privacy Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHaving reached the third reading, this legislation is the result of a long process involving the work and input of many. It includes the submissions on the proposed legislation made by interested parties, the dedicated work of officials who supported the bill during its development and passage, and the detailed analysis carried out by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I am grateful to all of those involved in bringing the bills to their third reading, and I now commend the bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd07ea35ff67462795f84f5b92c44d65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd07ea35ff67462795f84f5b92c44d65\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E What a sad speech that was from a dejected Minister. When the public is listening to this debate, they will contrast that with the passionate debates that were championed by my National colleagues. My colleagues are very confident and happy, because they are speaking on behalf of the New Zealand public. They know that this legislation is the last technical, complicated legislation that will be brought in front of the House by this minority Labour Government. This will be the last time, because when National takes the Treasury benches we will make sure that both the company tax and the personal tax rates will be lower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E That will negate the need for the countless pieces of complex tax legislation that this House has to debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI was reflecting on some of the Labour members who actually bothered to take calls during the second reading debate and the Committee stage. The Hon Harry Duynhoven actually tried to convince New Zealanders that they have not paid enough tax. So I hate to think what else this Labour Government has in mind for hard-working New Zealanders, in terms of taking money off them. As United Future has rightly observed, Labour is the only party left in this House that does not believe in lowering taxation. The problem with regard to Labour refusing to register the importance of lower tax, a complication caused by the different rates for personal tax and company tax, and by high taxation, is that that leads to tax compliance costs for individuals. As an accountant, I can imagine my colleagues, the chartered accountants and the tax lawyers. They are the ones who benefit from that situation. I wonder whether the Minister has looked at the number of tax consultants from large accounting firms who come in front of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, month in and month out, to debate and to make submissions on behalf of their clients. My accounting colleagues have told me they do not actually enjoy tax minimisation work. They would rather expand their management work in their consultancy companies. It is a lot more satisfying than tax consultancy, because they can actually assist their clients to expand their businesses rather spending so much time on investigating means to minimise taxation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EOne of the most high-profile issues contained in this legislation is to do with the thin capitalisation rule. I understand that the Inland Revenue Department has carried out separate consultation with the foreign-owned banks, and we accept the measures that will be introduced to counteract the very innovative way in which those banks try to minimise their tax payments. But the Minister has refused my invitation to take a call and explain why on the one hand the Labour Government has introduced the thin capitalisation rule to ensure that foreign-owned banks will pay their share of tax, while on the other hand nobody is prepared to share with the New Zealand public information on the sort of arrangement Transpower has entered into. Is it an arrangement to minimise tax in New Zealand or to minimise tax overseas? Where is the ethic of a Government that introduces legislation to ensure that foreign banks pay their tax, but that will not tell the New Zealand public whether Transpower\u2019s deal disadvantages New Zealand taxpayers? The Minister of Finance, the Hon Michael Cullen, says the public will simply have to take his word for it. Well, I am afraid that the public no longer takes the word of Labour Ministers seriously, because we have learnt from past experiences that they sometimes stretch the truth rather far. I think Labour members still have calls available, and I hope that one of them will stand up and share with the public the truth behind the Transpower deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI also want to share with the public a piece of information I obtained from the Inland Revenue Department. All my fellow National MPs have raised the issue that even a Labour Minister believes that the New Zealand public is entitled to some tax relief, and that the Hon Michael Cullen has proposed a tax cut of 67c a week in 3 years\u2019 time. I have asked the Inland Revenue Department how much work is involved in changing the tax thresholds. The department told the Finance and Expenditure Committee that to adjust the tax thresholds takes only 3 months, but that to cater for changes in relation to provisional taxpayers takes about 10 months. So if this Labour Government is serious, it should at least show some remorse for overtaxing New Zealanders for the last 6 years by bringing forward the date of that very miniscule tax relief for the majority of New Zealanders. But I imagine that could be too much to hope for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EMy colleague Dr Nick Smith has raised another excellent point about the legislation we are debating tonight. He was asking why people who have applied for resource consent, and whose applications either fail or are withdrawn, should be grateful for a tax deduction at all. Most individuals who engage in activities would rather that their projects get the green light to go ahead. To have a tax deduction for a very lengthy and drawn-out resource consent process is no consolation prize for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt was because of the refusal of the Labour Government to acknowledge that New Zealanders deserve to pay less tax that we have had the Inland Revenue Department admit it has to set aside $3.2 million to set up a small-business unit, to explain to small and medium sized businesses what their tax obligations are. How does that action square off with the continued promises and claims made by Labour members that they are serious about reducing compliance costs for small and medium sized businesses? All that such businesses want to do is to get on and expand. Why should they be grateful for a so-called subsidy to prepare their PAYE and all sorts of other source deductions? The Government has long used businesses as its tax agents, and I think that most small and medium sized businesses would prefer this Labour Government to simply lower the whole range of tax, to avoid them having to apply for subsidies to fulfil the tax compliance procedures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e38279770cec40aca7e94576c81b8d0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e38279770cec40aca7e94576c81b8d0d\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E During the Committee stage of the original Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill the Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe, took the call and challenged, with some determination, the statement he claimed I had made that the Labour Government had not reduced taxes. I say to the Minister\u2014and I conceded this in my second reading speech\u2014that there are some aspects to this legislation that will reduce the quantum of tax for some taxpayers, but I put squarely to him that the net effect of this legislation is several hundred million dollars more of tax for the Government. The net effect of this legislation is not any reduction at all in tax for New Zealanders. We are to collect $360 million more, under this legislation, from the banks alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWhen I think of the figure of $360 million, it has a kind of familiar ring to it. One of the other members recognised straight away that 360 million bucks is exactly the amount of revenue the Government intends to return to New Zealand taxpayers on 1 April 2008, by adjusting the tax brackets by 6.12 percent\u2014an adjustment that Dr Cullen says we could not afford until then. But in the legislation that we are to pass into law tonight we will collect 360 million bucks from the banks themselves. So where is the problem? Why is the Minister of Finance about the only person in New Zealand who does not realise that it is time for tax cuts and that we can afford them? It reminds me of the famous grandmother who watched all the troops marching past, and said: \u201CIsn\u2019t it a shame? The only person marching in step is my grandson.\u201D It is that kind of myopic vision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAlso, when the Minister, David Cunliffe, tried to claim that somehow or other this legislation was going to reduce taxes, my mind went to an instance in this House a little while ago, when the newest member of the House, ACT member Kenneth Wang, in his first question to the Minister of Finance, asked him how many increases in tax he had undertaken since he had become the Minister in late 1999. The Minister responded that the figure was nine. The honourable Phil Heatley told the House tonight that it was actually somewhere between 24 and 32; as Phil Heatley is an honourable member, I accept his word in that regard. Then, in a supplementary question to the Minister, Kenneth Wang asked how many rates of tax he had reduced since he had become Minister, and there was a deafening silence from the Minister. I think that all of us in the House were just amazed that Kenneth Wang, whether by luck or by skill, had actually caught the Minister on the hop completely. That is the memory that New Zealanders will take into this year\u2019s elections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ELet us unbundle the logic of another comment that the Minister in the chair tried to make in the Committee stage. He said that if we reduced the company tax rate, a considerable benefit arising from that would go to overseas investors in New Zealand companies. That is exactly the point. If we want to attract new investment into this country, then we need to have a competitive corporate tax rate. We heard from the Hon Richard Prebble that in some Eastern European countries those rates are down to 16 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022535b862e7bea4173bd828e8c60ac75d1\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Russia\u2019s down to 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299924859105b488392a80a2861cd3430\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: Russia\u2019s is down to 12 percent. Ireland has had a very, very low rate; I am not sure where it is now\u2014I think it may have gone up a bit\u2014but it was down to about 12 percent at one stage, too. That is the whole point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThere is a kind of\u2014and I hate to use the word\u2014inconsistency, a logical inconsistency, in that two bills down from this legislation, in the urgency motion, is the Overseas Investment Bill. With that bill the Government wants to encourage overseas investment in New Zealand. How does that square with it wanting to do exactly the opposite when it comes to the corporate tax rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to reinforce also a point made by, again, Kenneth Wang\u2014that is, the great majority of companies in this country actually employ five or fewer people. As he said, about 97 percent of them employ fewer than 20 people. We are talking about tax relief for all those companies, so why do we get fixated about a little bit of leakage going offshore, when the money potentially coming back the other way would be far greater? Even the leader of the Progressive Party recognises that reality. Even his party is saying that the corporate tax rate should come down to 30c in the dollar. In a way, I think we relish taking this issue into this year\u2019s election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to add just one other piece of information. Pansy Wong said she had a new piece of information. I have a new piece of information for the House, as well. Today, at the Finance and Expenditure Committee meeting, John Key asked Dr Cullen whether he might have second thoughts about waiting until 2008 for the 6.12 percent adjustment to the tax brackets. I thought I knew where John Key was coming from\u2014that he was thinking to himself that a couple of weeks from the election date Dr Cullen might suddenly say to the nation: \u201CHey, guys, I got it wrong, and, yep, we\u2019ll do it after all, and we\u2019ll do it from, maybe, 1 April 2006.\u201D But, no, he got a categorical response from Dr Michael Cullen: \u201CNo, I am not going to change. You\u2019re going to have to wait until 2008.\u201D So there it is. It is on the record. It is straight. It is clear. If nothing else, New Zealand voters will have some pretty clear choices to make in this year\u2019s election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022405ec22f5ca74345a62ee79fd64ada7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022405ec22f5ca74345a62ee79fd64ada7c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the third reading of the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It was agreed that we would take the legislation as one question. The Associate Minister of Revenue, Mr Cunliffe, was rash enough to decide to get up and make\u2014I guess I have to say, in fairness\u2014a vigorous defence of the Budget and the decision of the Government not to grant tax relief. That resulted in a wide-ranging debate\u2014which actually had been agreed to. Mr Cunliffe must have realised the position, from the reception he got. For example, I have just listened to the speech made by Mr Copeland, whose party normally supports Labour. Mr Copeland, in his gentlemanlike way, completely lacerated the Government\u2019s position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMr Cunliffe wants us to believe that the Government does not have a $7 billion surplus. Of course, to believe that, one has to believe that the Auditor-General, who signed off the Government\u2019s accounts, got it wrong; that Treasury, which is required by law to state whether the Government\u2019s accounts are correct, actually got it all wrong; and that there is no $7 billion surplus. I just say to the Government that it has no chance at all of putting across that line. It is nonsense. The $7 billion surplus most certainly does exist, and there is the ability to have tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe reason the Government is in trouble is that even someone such as the President of the Labour Party, Mike Williams, could not believe that the Government would not adjust the tax rates. The whole country expected adjustments, because inflation has happened, and because one of the promises that Labour was elected to Government on\u2014I have a copy of the promise somewhere, if it has forgotten it\u2014was that no more than 5 percent of the population would have an increase in income tax, but, of course, 20 percent of people in the workforce are now paying the 39c tax rate. The answers Dr Cullen gave in the House\u2014apparently, Mr Cunliffe was not listening, because he denied that those answers were given\u2014show that people in New Zealand on average incomes, after tax, are no better off today than they were 6 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EOf course, that does not apply to the Government. The Government is much better off. It has been collecting revenue. As Kenneth Wang, speaking on behalf of the ACT party, pointed out, this tax revenue has not come from a few overseas companies, because although those overseas companies may pay some tax, the vast bulk of tax in New Zealand is paid by average New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E In the case of New Zealand companies, 97 percent employ fewer than 20 people, and I think about 97 percent of them are New Zealand - owned. The Associate Minister got up and said that the Government could not give a tax cut, because it would help overseas companies and the banks, but that argument just will not wash with the average small-business man. The reason why someone like Kenneth Wang is so upset about it is that he is a small-business man. He knows that it is companies like his that are paying the extra tax, just as the average New Zealander knows how much money he or she has left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI believe that tax is going to be the big election issue. I have no difficulty in believing Mr Carter, who told members that when he was at the Fieldays today the issue that people wanted to talk about was tax. That has been my experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI know what has happened to the Labour Government. It has looked at the polls and found that the polls say\u2014and they still say\u2014that 66 percent of people would pay more tax in return for a better health system. Well, I come from the ACT party, I believe in low tax, but even I would pay more tax to have a better health system. But I just know that if I paid more tax, I would not get a better health system. If we relook at those polls, we also see that the other 30 percent of people, who do not say they would be prepared to vote for more tax, know that they would be the people who would pay it. Most of the people who answer yes to that question do not think they personally would have to pay the increase. When we put the question a different way, as the National Business Review did\u2014which, again, Kenneth Wang pointed out\u2014before the Budget, and I do not know why Dr Cullen did not notice it, we see that two-thirds of all New Zealanders now think they are paying too much tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI suspect that that figure has now gone up further. The result of the silly decision made by the Government to give the price of a packet of chewing gum in 3 years\u2019 time in tax relief has caused everyone in New Zealand to look at the question, and to realise that there has been inflation over the last 6 years and that the Government has not adjusted the tax rates. We also know that the Government across the Tasman, both before the election and, now, after the election, has dramatically adjusted tax thresholds for inflation. As we live in a global world, we are aware of that fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EOf course, we then have to ask why the Government is not prepared to adjust the tax rates. There are two reasons. The first is an ideological one. Dr Cullen firmly believes that he can spend our money better than we can. That is his view. So he is in favour of higher tax. If it were up to him, I think he would lift it even further. That is the arrogance of a socialist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EBut the second reason is that we all know that Treasury has told him that the effect of the Labour Government employing 38,000 extra bureaucrats over the last 5 years will blow out even the massive $7 billion surplus. That is because\u2014and it is a well-established fact\u2014when any one employs an extra person there are also extra costs in overheads, but when an extra civil servant is employed, his or her costs go up every year. The reason is that civil servants generate more costs. They produce new ideas, and the Government then has to go out and hire consultants to find out whether those ideas are any good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI will use a parliamentary example, which we all would have seen. We now have the Parliamentary Service Commission. The position I am in is that I find that about every 3 years somebody from the commission comes into my office and tells me that my desk, which I thought was perfectly adequate, has to go because a new Occupational Safety and Health Service study says it is not ergonomically efficient. The whole civil service is like that. It is always coming up with these things. When we pass these regulations, most small businesses ignore them, but not the civil service\u2014it applies them! There is a huge cost in putting in new furniture, putting in no-smoking areas, training people to use non-sexist language, training people how to be sensitive to M\u0101ori, or whatever the latest cause is, and the cost goes up every year. Imagine that there are 38,000 new civil servants, all of whom have to be taught about non-sexist language, about bicultural New Zealand, or about whatever the latest thing the civil service is into! Of course it is going to cost $7 billion! That is why Dr Cullen and a socialist Government cannot reduce tax. But, of course, an ACT party in Government could, because we are not politically correct, for a start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI point out a further reason. Let us take the Ministry of Health: with all its extra bureaucrats, there are no extra operations\u2014not one. If we asked the public whether they wanted more Ministry of Health bureaucrats, all well trained in biculturalism and non-sexist language, or whether they wanted granny to have her hip operation, the answer would be that they wanted granny to have her hip operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ESo if a Government were prepared to put a control on Government expenditure, we could have very substantial tax cuts. The ACT party says we could go immediately to a low flat rate of tax. Where is the relevance of that to this legislation? The original bill was 170 pages long. With a low flat tax, it would not be necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00222fb3b04cdb324cb68989e55b27756e17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fb3b04cdb324cb68989e55b27756e17\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That was an interesting contribution from Richard Prebble. I am not sure whether I could decipher what was true and what was a figment of his imagination. I take it that the 38,000 new bureaucrats is a reasonably accurate figure. I think that illustrates the concerns New Zealand First has with this Labour-led Government, propped up by the \u201CPoodle Party\u201D of United Future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI want to take this opportunity to again make New Zealand First\u2019s position clear when it comes to tax. We support a fresh look at\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0feaf7100d44c48a6ccb56abb8f1dbc\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Do you support National?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289602de6fbeb492497e732b0724b7dbf\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I will come to National in very short order. I think that when I get to it, the member will be hanging his head in shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First would like to see taxation eased for New Zealanders, but we do recognise that most law-abiding New Zealanders want greater resources given to the police. That will cost money. Most New Zealanders, so they tell us, want students to have a universal living allowance, and we support that. Most New Zealanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378810c8b935443cbcc56fd09180f563\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Very expensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257d3d4bed9d14ec192ec18e6b97c3dbc\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is an expensive exercise. The member is clearly thinking. Most New Zealanders, with the exception of members of the Green Party, want more investment into roading\u2014far more than that Government is doing at the moment. Most New Zealanders, by a significant majority, want an improved health system. We have an ageing population, and New Zealanders want and need greater financial investment in that sector. I take issue with the Hon Richard Prebble, who said that if we put more money into the health system, it would not improve. That is far from the truth. Other countries have invested in the health system to a greater degree in proportion to GDP. This Government puts about 6.1 percent of GDP into our health system, but that is too low. We believe that it should be increased, on a gradual basis, to something like 9.5 or 10 percent, including the investment from the private health sector, which is in the vicinity of about 1.9 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe would like to see incentives for new exporters. We believe that we have to add to our export base by encouraging exporters to get involved, and a tax incentive would go a long way to achieving that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E In this volatile world, we believe we have to put more investment into our defence forces. We have to put more investment into our railway, and more, I suggest, into our shipping\u2014not by direct investment but by way of creating a favourable tax regime for encouraging our ship owners and ship operators to get more involved in the industry. Currently there is not one single ship running overseas and that, for an island nation tucked down at the bottom of the world, is a disgrace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ELabour spoke about, rather than introduced, its new tax thresholds\u2014it did not introduce anything in this Budget in terms of thresholds. I think it created more enemies than it made friends. I met a number of people who were, prior to Budget day, absolutely devoted Labourites\u2014that is the only way I can explain them\u2014and they felt insulted to know that they will wait for 3 years, until 2008, when they will get the grand total of 67c a week extra, even though the Minister of Finance will pay each and every one of us in Parliament something in excess of $10 extra per week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI want to touch on the banking industry for a moment. I take up what Gordon Copeland said, because I agreed with him when he said that all we want in this country is for banks to pay their fair share of tax. We want nothing more and nothing less. Currently, as I understand it, a court action is being taken because it is deemed that they are paying a good deal less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENobody in New Zealand First has said anything about not wanting banks to make a profit. We would like them to be owned by New Zealanders or by New Zealand companies. They are not, and we see that as a sad fact of life. We want them to make a profit and we want them to pay their fair share of tax. I make that quite clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First believes in tax cuts. This legislation does not deliver on that, but it changes the structure in a way that is encouraging, and for that reason New Zealand First supports it. We see tax cuts as something at the end of the line, after we have delivered on the social good. We believe that the Government\u2019s Working for Families package is a tax cut. It is a targeted tax cut for the low or relatively low paid. It might well spread higher up the chain, but basically it is a targeted tax cut for the low paid. New Zealand First supported the legislation when it went through the House just after last year\u2019s Budget, and we are pleased with the feedback we are hearing on how it has been delivered thus far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOne of the urgent things we believe should be done is to put more money into roading. I am pleased that the National Party has taken our suggestion on board of diverting the petrol tax into the roading account. There was a time when that party was totally opposed to it. We started a process in 1998 of diverting 2.1c per litre of petrol into the roading account, which, if my memory serves me correctly, was about $70 million. Had that continued every year, with no growth in petrol sales, and fuel consumption remaining about the same\u2014in other words, 2.1c equalling the same value\u2014at this point in time there would have been something like $2.7 billion put into roading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe National Party, when New Zealand First and National had a parting of the ways, which is putting it politely, stopped all that, although that is not so according to Don Brash. He blamed Labour in his speech to the Automobile Association convention. He said Labour came in and stopped it. It actually stopped in the 1999 Budget, which was delivered by Bill Birch. At the same time, behind the scenes in 1998 when we implemented it, Bill Birch was telling Winston Peters in particular, but it was well known to the rest of us in the New Zealand First caucus that he would not have a bar of transferring that money across. \u201COver his dead body\u201D I think was the term. So it was definitely a New Zealand First initiative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI ask the National Party, now it has taken the idea on board and, indeed, is promoting it, how many lives have been lost because that money has not been injected into roading. How much better off would the country be economically and socially if that money had been diverted across, as New Zealand First advocated? I know that this legislation has nothing to do with roading, or petrol tax, or anything like that. But since this Government has come into power, it has upped the price of petrol on at least two, possibly three, occasions by way of taxation increases. All of them, to our mind, have been unnecessary, and they have all been an additional cost to the average New Zealander, which was totally unwarranted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this legislation, but we believe that taxation in this country has to be looked at freshly and reviewed positively. We believe, in essence, that tax should be fair, reasonable, and encouraging. This legislation is a move in that direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00225e2d7a87eb004b5b9c6c2332e22e7336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e2d7a87eb004b5b9c6c2332e22e7336\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E National speakers have crystallised and articulated the argument about taxation. Taxation will be an election issue. What the Budget did was an absolute insult to hard-working New Zealanders. We support the Taxation (Base Maintenance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill because there are some issues in it that are of merit, but the hard-working New Zealanders who expected some tax relief, when the country is running a $7.4 billion surplus, feel cheated. They feel cheated because they are the ones who have earned the money. They are the ones who toil away. There is no reward for hard work, enterprise, or initiative. This Government just takes and takes. That is why the Labour Government is on notice that taxation will be an issue at the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EMy colleague Phil Heatley mentioned that 30-odd new taxes have been introduced. The compliance costs associated with those are immense. I want to clarify again from my speech in the second reading debate one tax that has not yet been introduced but has been mooted. It is the proposed carbon tax. That tax, valued at $15 per tonne of carbon dioxide emissions, will put about $250 on every household in New Zealand. What does that mean for someone on a fixed income? Where will those people recoup the costs of the extra $250 of tax? That boils down to 4c per litre on fuel\u2014on petrol at the pump. Members will bear in mind that we have just had a tax increase at the pumps of 5.6c per litre. It also means that there will be about a 10 percent increase in electricity charges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221413389026894cf2a0c4b62435da923f\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: How much on petrol? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac77db6c837648e6b7936d1ad4577e22\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: It is 4c per litre on petrol. That is when carbon dioxide emissions are valued at $15 per tonne. The Government could put a $25 per tonne value on that charge, and then the costs that I have just mentioned will escalate. The value at the moment of trading carbon credits on the secondary market is around \u00A319 per tonne. So in New Zealand dollars the figures I have mentioned are very conservative, when the outcomes could be a lot higher. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIt has often been said that taxation is theft. Well, that is what this Government has been into for the last 6 years. It has taken more money off people\u2014socialist Governments do that, and then they want to redistribute the money and say how great they are. I wonder why 700 New Zealanders per week decide to go to Australia. What is the attraction? Seven hundred New Zealanders per week are finding it more attractive to shift offshore. They have more opportunities to make a living for themselves in Australia. Australia just had a Budget the other day, and it was bad news for New Zealand. Australians will get A$6 per week, and when will they get it? They are actually getting it now\u2014not, as this Government is providing for, in 3 years\u2019 time. This Government is saying that on 1 April 2008 it will give us 67c a week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe credibility of this Government is in tatters. Any integrity it might have had years ago has gone. Hard-working New Zealanders will not stomach this. Everywhere I and my colleagues go, we find the big issue is taxation. I put the Government on notice that that will be an issue. Hard-working New Zealanders feel cheated by this Government, which had an opportunity to give tax cuts through running a $7.4 billion surplus. They feel cheated, and they will acknowledge that and record their protest at the polls in a very short time. Members must watch this space, because taxation is a key issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1ef198c221e4d82a70a43cd173665f0\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d4bbe0a410d4246bbd4c1cd0ebc7250\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001063\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 9 June.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7c6c695bc334b2993f888d6d50cc359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7c6c695bc334b2993f888d6d50cc359\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak at the second reading of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). Since the first reading of this bill, some quite substantial changes have been made. Most of those have occurred because of the inclusion of Supplementary Order Paper 298, tabled in the Health Committee in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton. The original bill included provisions to change the amount of a drug that a person could have in his or her possession before being legally presumed to be in possession of that drug for the purpose of supply. In this bill we are looking specifically at methamphetamine. The original bill also proposed to add a Ministry of Justice official to the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, in order to bring a justice perspective to that committee, which has been primarily charged with the health concerns regarding drugs and any new substances that come into that category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAt the first reading we were looking at a bill that created two new importing and exporting offences for precursor substances. It included new powers for search and seizure without warrant for ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and also had some interesting provisions to allow what are called controlled deliveries, so that the police can establish who is involved, beyond the border control issues, with the manufacture and supply of illegal drugs. I think that that is a very good thing. When we are trying to look, in particular, at the organised crime scene around drugs, it is important that we allow the police to have those kinds of powers to investigate and follow through on controlled deliveries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe first reading of this amendment bill included a revised approach to offences related to the possession of needles and syringes. The Ministry of Health funds the Needle and Syringe Exchange Programme, which has been set up to reduce the spread of HIV/AIDS, hepatitis C, and other blood-borne viruses among injecting drug users. Currently, those caught by the police in possession of needles and syringes have to prove that the equipment was indeed supplied by the needle exchange or through some legal means. The outcome is that it has been a very time-consuming matter for those staffing the needle exchanges, who spend unreasonable amounts of time in court as defence witnesses. This amendment reverses the onus of proof requirements, so that the prosecution must now provide evidence that the equipment was not legally obtained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThere was some discussion in the select committee about considering\u2014and even in the last few days there have been calls by the New Zealand Drug Foundation to do this\u2014an extension of those provisions. Some would prefer to see needles and syringes eliminated from being able to be used evidentially. My caucus and I looked again at the request of the New Zealand Drug Foundation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a32defeadd441e091d5fb1283032461\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. There are people chattering all over the place. I can hardly hear the member speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa54334aba446cf9c0aa88218b99942\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would members please keep the chatter down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f525341fa2cb46d1a1f6674c12fc8cfa\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: I was just talking about the consideration given to the issue of whether general equipment like needles and syringes should be able to be used evidentially in court cases. One concern we in United Future had is that although there may be some purpose, particularly from a health perspective, in making sure that somebody cannot receive an additional charge when he or she is charged with the possession of an illegal substance, a person should be able to face an additional charge of being in possession of a needle and syringe when that relates to the other end of drug offences\u2014when people are being charged with the offence of supply. When the police\u2014and we did discuss this with the police when they were at the select committee\u2014discover, for instance, a box of syringes and needles in a place they are searching, and when the offence is the supply of drugs and the supplier is obviously well geared up to facilitate the drug use of his or her clients, then we felt, and the police certainly believed, that the police should be allowed to use needles and syringes evidentially as part of their case. We certainly support that. I think the majority of the select committee members felt that just changing the onus of proof was a sufficient measure, and that we would still like to leave the police some flexibility in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe new Supplementary Order Paper was received with mixed feelings by the United Future caucus. In our opinion, the intention of the Minister to respond quickly to the call from many community agencies to at least regulate, or to ban, new party pills and products as they come on to the market was a noble gesture. The Supplementary Order Paper the Minister has tabled certainly allows Parliament to respond with speed. However, we were concerned that the more substantial legislative work that needs to be done to regulate substances deemed by the expert advisory committee to be of a low risk would have been better served by a more comprehensive legislative model, put in place separate from the Misuse of Drugs Act. Our concerns were heightened when we realised that, by creating a new class of drug under the Misuse of Drugs Act, with all its existing Order in Council provisions, there was a very real possibility that substances like cannabis could be downgraded by those same Order in Council provisions in the future. We considered that to be a very real threat. I certainly do not believe, and United Future certainly does not believe, that that was ever the intention of the Minister, so we moved to have discussions with the Government around that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe are very pleased to see that some limitations have been put into the bill on the power of the Order in Council provisions, so that full public and parliamentary scrutiny would be required before any such changes took place. However, we accept that there is a place in this bill for Orders in Council. The Regulations Review Committee cautions us about the overuse and misuse of Order in Council provisions, but we see a place for them. When a crisis arises that the police are aware of and want Parliament to respond to quickly, Order in Council provisions are an appropriate way to allow the Government to respond by bringing in some controls on substances that cause concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EHaving secured those changes, United Future is pleased to see this legislation advance, but we certainly want to be in discussion with whoever is in Government after the election. We want to see the continuation of the ongoing legislative work that needs to be done to have a separate restricted substances Act put in place, to give legal and regulated substances their own legal framework separate from that for illegal substances. The committee\u2019s commentary on the bill suggests that that work should be done, and we are very much in support of that. Given the speed at which the new social tonics are being developed and marketed, I believe that our next Government needs to make that work a priority. We support the second reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022857fcaeabb7642d58088dca4baa0a6ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022857fcaeabb7642d58088dca4baa0a6ff\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call in the second reading debate on the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). I thank the members of the Health Committee. This was a very complex bill that came before the committee. I think its complexity comes from the fact that we are dealing with a drug-regulating regime that was established in 1975 by the Misuse of Drugs Act and subsequently amended by the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 1978. That is 30 years ago, and we are now finding that we do not always have the right framework in current legislative provisions to deal with the issues that we are dealing with in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe committee was quite happy with the amendments in the bill, which address matters like presumption of supply levels being amended by Order in Council. We spent a lot of time on that. We looked at thresholds for presumption of supply in relation to methamphetamine. It was of great concern to us that although the drug had been reclassified in a previous amendment to the Act, the thresholds had been set at the wrong level, so we needed to reconsider the threshold. We did not have any problem with this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe bill also strengthens the provisions for offences of importing and exporting the horrible precursor substances, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, that are now used in manufacturing P. That problem has caused us a lot of concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe trends we have seen in pill shopping at pharmacies have changed, and we needed to move our eye to the importing and exporting of precursors. We needed to make a shift to strengthening the powers of the Customs Service in the monitoring of importing and exporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 298 added a new Part 3 to the bill, which relates to benzylpiperazine. I note that this Supplementary Order Paper came in on 9 November. This legislation is not a knee-jerk reaction to a new substance on the market. The media said we were rapidly pushing it through the House; we have not done that at all. We received the Supplementary Order Paper in November, and here we are in June debating the second reading of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe had a lot of issues to grapple with over the current construct of the Misuse of Drugs Act and what we could do about a substance like benzylpiperazine. We also asked about some other substances out there, unregulated, that are causing concern because they are being used for their psychoactive effects. These include substances like \u201Cnos\u201D\u2014nitrous oxide. We even looked at things like nail polish remover and hairspray\u2014products in the commercial market that are now being used for their psychoactive effects, for heaven\u2019s sake! We had to grapple with how we could regulate these substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EEverybody on the committee realised that a social problem with benzylpiperazine is emerging rapidly, and we also knew of problems with other products. So we were looking at a framework for dealing with these substances as restricted substances. I thank the committee for its work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe concern was raised\u2014which Judy Turner talked about\u2014that we needed a stand-alone restricted substances bill, but we were advised that simply to get officials to work on developing a stand-alone bill, and to get advice and look at the policy of such a bill, would take about 6 months, and we were aware that we just did not have enough time for that at this stage of the political cycle. I was really pleased that in the end we agreed to do our best to get benzylpiperazine put on a restricted substances schedule. I thank the committee for that. I think it was a very pragmatic decision, which supported the Minister\u2019s intention to show that we are going to manage the substances that are out there being used now and that we need to do something about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003ESo we went back to expeditious scheduling, which I think was put in the original bill for the very purpose of enabling us to respond quickly rather than have to amend standing legislation. We did not support the recommendation to develop a stand-alone bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI believe that now we have the framework in place it will allow us to add substances to the new schedule. I am very happy that the legislation is robust. We put all sorts of restrictions in the bill about sale and regulatory provisions that will make it a lot stronger. When we get to the Committee stage we will consider those aspects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00223508a415b3e04d73a3f7ca1f54e07f19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223508a415b3e04d73a3f7ca1f54e07f19\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E The Misuse of Drugs Act is designed to classify drugs that do harm in our society due to addiction and death. There are three categories: A, B, and C. The expeditious scheduling of drugs was originally set up by Wyatt Creech. He developed the initial legislation in 1999, and when the Labour Government came in, the Health Committee continued that work. It shows that we can work across party lines at times for good legislation for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe provision for expeditious scheduling under the Misuse of Drugs Act has been used for Ecstasy and for Fantasy, which at the time were causing the deaths of young New Zealanders. We needed to be able to respond quickly to the smart chemists\u2014the people who can change the chemical structure of a drug rapidly to escape the ambit of the Act\u2014who prey on young people. That is why we put in place approval by resolution of the House, which is called an affirmative resolution process. That new system set up an expert advisory committee that recommends to the Minister of Health that a drug be added to the schedule, and at what level. The Health Committee then reviews that recommendation for 1 month. This process was used for Fantasy, for Ecstasy, and for P, drugs that can cause death and serious addiction. P often causes the person taking it to become incredibly violent, and in this country we have seen some serious acts of violence committed by people who are taking it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe bill we are debating today concerns the precursors of methamphetamines. National members totally support the original bill that came to the Health Committee. We want to do all we can to curb drug abuse in this country. Of course, legislation against drug abuse is only the tip of iceberg. Getting to the cause of why our young people wish to take drugs in the first place is something we all need to battle with on a societal level. National totally supports that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe situation with Supplementary Order Paper 298, however, is somewhat different. The Regulations Review Committee stated to us that the bill proposes moving presumption of supply matters to the schedule of the principal Act, so that they may be set or altered by Order in Council and approved by resolution of the House. Normally a bill would come to the House, then go to a select committee after the first reading, and there would be submissions from the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EBenzylpiperazine and legal highs, as they are known as at the moment, have no regulation around them. They do not fit under the Food Act, the Misuse of Drugs Act, or the Animal Products (Ancillary and Transitional Provisions) Act\u2014they do not fit anywhere. So it is fair enough that they need some regulation around them to stop young people, especially the under-18-year-olds, using them. The Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs said that those drugs did not cause serious or moderately serious harm, but that they just needed regulation. Is it appropriate, we ask, to use the expeditious scheduling regime to regulate those drugs? The answer that National came to was no. We should have had an actual bill before the House so that we could get it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe have seen what happens when Governments rush things\u2014members will remember the sherry tax, the intent of which was to stop young people, and it totally missed the target. So we must take our time to make sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022401472cce04d430c9bf046112157d0ea\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: It reduced it by half a million litres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f5f1a2e17d48879877fb03319fc516\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says it works. Young people now are queuing up in accident and emergency departments at night. It has not been working at all. I say to the Minister that more and more young people in the country are drinking alcohol. He may not like that, but that is the fact. Young people are in more damaging situations and in more motor vehicle accidents. We see more 14 and 15-year-olds in accident and emergency departments. It has not hit the target in any way whatsoever. It has been an utter failure. So I say to the Minister that he should open his eyes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI return to the bill and the Supplementary Order Paper. No one disagrees with trying to do something about those so-called legal highs, but there has to be a process whereby we get it right; otherwise, we miss the target. Many times in this House I have seen people with good intentions, but all they do is put a lot of regulations in place that miss the target and do not achieve what they are intended to achieve. The problem is that we never go back and look at whether we have actually achieved our aims. No clear research takes place to see whether a piece of legislation worked; if it did not work there is nothing that lets us change it, or get rid of it and get something else. In this case, National members agreed with the advice of the Regulations Review Committee, and we felt that the extension of the procedures currently used for amending the classification of a controlled drug should not be extended in this way to something that is considered to be of only moderate harm and needing regulation. But we said we are totally committed to properly evolved legislation, dealing with restricted drugs and substances, being brought into the House and passed within 12 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe problem with solvent abuse is how one can tell whether an 18-year-old is buying a can of paint to spray paint a car, or whether he or she is actually going to sniff it. We need to listen to the people in the community about how to hit our target. No one disagrees with trying to get to the bottom of those problems, but we do not want to set up something that has to come back to the House and be amended. The select committee said it wanted to see a properly developed Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAnother change that the select committee made was that one could only increase\u2014not decrease\u2014classification. I think that was because it was worried about a Labour-Green coalition. I remember when I sat on the Health Committee we went all over the country listening to people as part of the cannabis inquiry. That was simply because Labour needed the Greens. We spent a huge amount of money on the inquiry, going from one end of the country to the other listening to opinions on whether we should decriminalise cannabis. I think United Future was really concerned that if a Labour-Green coalition formed, we could see cannabis reduced down the schedule by that process. In the end, it could not get the support in the committee, and the majority agreed that one could only increase, not decrease, a classification by Order in Council. This would mean that a controlled drug could not be changed to a restricted substance without the controlled drug classification being removed by Parliament first. So it would have to come through the parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThis is what is meant by unintended consequences. We rush those things through without proper scrutiny, then we have unintended consequences. The Associate Minister of Health may not be here the next time; he may not be in a Labour-Green coalition. If the people who thought they were promoting one thing are not there, they will get something else. It is called unintended consequences and it happens all the time. I say to the Minister that he should be glad that the legislation was limited to not being able to decrease the classification of a substance. We agreed with that limitation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI was pleased to see the change to the needle exchange provision, whereby the onus of proof is moved from the one who has it in possession to those who are prosecuting. For those who go on the needle exchange programme the risk of HIV and hepatitis is high\u2014because they are legally given those needles on the exchange programme. The current law has been an impediment to them, so National agreed with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAll in all, we agreed with the originally introduced bill, but not the way that the Supplementary Order Paper was developed. So we will be supporting the bill as a whole, but not the Supplementary Order Paper, which is now Part 3 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00224ba582f8cd9c49908003213665a4987b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ba582f8cd9c49908003213665a4987b\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a very brief call on the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3), because I think it is a common-sense and sensible bill, just like this Labour-led Government, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00227f73ac1782544a4aa472383c7b0f359f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f73ac1782544a4aa472383c7b0f359f\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E The New Zealand National Party certainly supports the original Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3), which deals with changes to legislation concerning drugs. We recognise the extraordinary harm to health and safety caused by inappropriate use of controlled drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI had the opportunity to sit in on the Health Committee for a very brief period, and a gentleman who actually manufactures party drugs was making a submission to the committee. I asked him what research had been done into the long-term effects of the use of party drugs. Of course, there has been none. I think that is an extraordinary oversight. Nobody has any idea what the cumulative effect, or the combination of effects, of using those party drugs is if people are using other medications, or if people have other conditions that predispose them to being affected by the contents of those party drugs. There has been absolutely no real research into the peripheral effects of the use of party drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThere should have been some requirement on the manufacturers of party drugs to provide information to the House, or to the authorities, or to whomever, that determines what the long-term effects of party drug usage is, and whether it has any peripheral effects on any other existing medical conditions. It is extraordinary that we have these party drugs, but we do not require a bit more oversight in respect of their use. I guess one reason that we are going through this whole process is to put some controls around those drugs and to see where that takes us. Although we are putting controls around them, we are not requiring any research into their effects. That is something that should be looked at. Perhaps some sort of requirement on the manufacturer to do research is necessary for us to have a better understanding of what those drugs have the potential to do if they are taken consistently on a long-term basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E Certainly, it is fairly well-known that our young ones\u2019 bodies are not well-developed; at the age of 18 they are still developing, and their bodies may not be able to handle these types of substances, particularly if they are mixed with alcohol\u2014certainly, with the amount of alcohol they are consuming in this day and age, with the lowering of the drinking age, which I think was one of the bigger mistakes made by this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ENational members are mindful of the Regulations Review Committee\u2019s statements that the affirmative resolution procedure should not proliferate, that it should be used only in limited and exceptional circumstances, and that any extension of the procedure in relation to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975 should be permitted only where it is a necessary adjustment to alter the schedules of controlled drugs, and essential in order to achieve the purpose of the Act in dealing with the serious risk of emerging drug threats. Of course, if we have done no long-term research into party drugs, into legal party highs, how do we know what the effects will actually be? There could be some emerging risk from long-term usage, but we do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3f808fca114097a5be89bbd8a7fc49\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022324a400e7e56426dacacb5e28bb2f476\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member is absolutely right\u2014what is the Government doing about that? It did not actually come up in the select committee, and nothing has been done about it, as far as I understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec1c51e2c570402e8e4bd4682fab34c5\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298a18e86f3a741b5b2620f6f38372803\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the question was asked at the select committee, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c7445299e44e4089f34c6e5c0489cc\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Well, ask a question of me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221440ee60434e4bd1a5d3d6ff0eae2f56\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister was not at the select committee, and he was not the person producing the stuff. I would have thought that the person producing the stuff would actually know but, no\u2014[Interruption] There was none. The producer said there was none, so unless somebody else is doing it, well\u2014who would know? It is certainly a question, and perhaps the Minister would like to take a call and give us an explanation of his understanding of the research into party drugs and those legal party highs. We would certainly welcome the opportunity to listen to him give that explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National is very concerned about the increasing use of benzylpiperazine, party drugs, herbal highs, etc., particularly among the 18-year-old age group. It has been an emerging problem for some years, and we believe that the response should be well-considered legislation, with the public given opportunity for full submissions, and with nothing rushed through by way of Supplementary Order Papers. Everybody should have the opportunity to participate. In actual fact, I think there is too much haste in the promulgation of law in this Parliament, and I think the process should be slowed down somewhat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ESo, as per the recommendations of the Regulations Review Committee, National members consider that legislation around restricted drugs, which are often legal substances, should be covered by primary legislation. We therefore do not support the Hon Jim Anderton\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, but instead commit that as a Government we would ensure that properly evolved legislation dealing with restricted drugs and substances was brought into the House and passed within 12 months. I note that many of the press releases around this legislation seem to be pretty well dominated by Mr Anderton. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1c1bd79cfb84fc79005aac46e1663a4\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: I am the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022685e844cbe2e4248919395a1d015d2af\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he seems to be capturing the moment, yet he is presenting a Supplementary Order Paper that has not gone through the full process. I think that is a bit of a shame. I am glad that we are supporting the original bill, and are not supporting the Supplementary Order Paper. I am very pleased we are taking that position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225579225c5dcc4bbd9445ce037f014811\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Health Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001114\u0022\u003EAmendments recommended by the Health Committee by majority agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001115\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1b54ce7b2294f289faa68805765054d\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u002213742d1aaa5b4bc8b4aa5a5e2cf6f95b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213742d1aaa5b4bc8b4aa5a5e2cf6f95b\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be63746b0adf4eb8afdb5b280dd7a545\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229894b8385ff444d1b01ee7be20eb96ed\u0022\u003EPart 1  Substantive amendments to Misuse of Drugs Act 1975 and consequential amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022893450691933401898c7ed72413eec6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022893450691933401898c7ed72413eec6d\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in this Committee of the whole House debate on Part 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) to explain the effects of Supplementary Order Paper 377 and the tabled amendments in my name. Firstly, the bill was originally intended to extend the powers of customs officers under section 36 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975 to all precursor substances. However, the bill as drafted did not accurately reflect that intention. Section 36 of the Misuse of Drugs Act makes certain powers under the Customs and Excise Act 1996 applicable when dealing with controlled drugs. Those powers enable customs officers who are investigating drug importation offences under the Misuse of Drugs Act to question persons, undertake searches, and obtain documentation, using their Customs and Excise Act powers. The amendment to section 36 of the Misuse of Drugs Act was intended to extend that application of Customs and Excise Act powers to investigations under the new importation offences involving precursor substances. The bill as written, however, confined those powers to pseudoephedrine and ephedrine\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20050614d23413d6cc1e4bc78b56b33fb97dff6c001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cc4231cc6ad4da59c800bb5342f8baf\u0022\u003ETuesday, 14 June 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0cf98ff380d4e89a1ac6f9c2cbc1cc4\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 16 June 2005)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3c8a32f687645c2a1344cf6421a0090\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdcdc5f4849c4b9bb953308a78b840d4\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5d71e2b25504dd89e90826bf7243ad0\u0022\u003EPart 1  Substantive amendments to Misuse of Drugs Act 1975 and consequential amendments (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u00225a1f055264ca45c29eb71a8d425c9f75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a1f055264ca45c29eb71a8d425c9f75\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Last night, at about 3 minutes to 12, we started this debate, and I just want to recap on it for the benefit of members. There are two amendments in my name, and some members, I think specifically speaking for the National Party, have indicated that they would oppose those amendments\u2014that is the indication I got. I want to point out to the National members, and to the Committee, that those amendments actually clarify the intention that the Health Committee had. If the amendments are not supported, some, I think, rather bizarre consequences will take place. I am not sure the National members fully appreciate that, and I would like to run past them again what this issue is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe first amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 377 in my name deals with the fact that this bill is intended to extend the application of customs and excise powers to investigations under the new importation offences involving precursor substances, such as ephedrine and pseudoephedrine. A number of other substances are also covered by the proposed new importation and exportation offences in the bill. If we do not pass the amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 377 to rectify the situation that the bill at the moment evidences, then the Customs Service will not be able to deal with illicit drug manufacturers, who have shown an ability to exploit legal loopholes and change their modus operandi. So I want the National members to seriously consider that if they do not support that amendment, they will restrict the powers of the Customs Service to deal with serious drugs. I hardly think that that is what National intends, but if it does not support the amendment it will have to stand accused of doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe second amendment in my name is intended to ensure that the presumption of supply for a drug could be amended by Order in Council, and that the associated affirmative resolution procedure could be amended by Parliament. After hearing submissions, the Regulations Review Committee was concerned about the extension of this procedure not involving the full scrutiny of Parliament. The Health Committee\u2014which did excellent work on this bill, and I thank the members for that\u2014has recommended the following: \u201CWe recommend that the ability to amend the presumption of supply level for a controlled drug by Order in Council, as proposed in the bill, be limited to two circumstances (clause 5). The first is where the classification of the controlled drug is also being changed. We agree that changing this level in tandem with a classification or reclassification would prevent anomalies such as occurred with methamphetamine, where the drug was given a Class A classification by Order in Council, but the associated presumption of supply change required this bill.\u201D So we had to go through two procedures and delay it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E I heard members of the National Party say last night that it would take only 12 months. We are talking about situations where young people are actually dying, for goodness sake! Coroners are urging Parliament to take action\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c075740254d34207b5c05b198fbca5bd\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: On what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3930ac88fc649589910ae8f0429cc78\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: On the misuse of drugs, on the importation of precursors, and all sorts of issues surrounding that. The solvent issue is one that I put forward and the committee has kicked it for touch, so I will have to go through another process on it. I suggest to members that the bill, as drafted, does not reflect the recommendation of the select committee. I urge members to think about this: the select committee has recommended something, the bill, as drafted, does not reflect that properly, and the commentary, when reporting back the bill to the House, states that the amendment to clause 5(2) in my name is necessary to rectify the situation. If we do not do that, we will have a problem in terms of getting changes to the default supply amount of controlled drugs, such as reducing methamphetamine from 56 grams to 5 grams, and so. We will have to go through two elongated procedures in order to achieve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI recommend these amendments to the Committee because I am certain they actually reflect what the select committee itself wanted. We have to change the bill in order to bring that about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00227c3a561a486a4ccf8fef5864334f2e81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c3a561a486a4ccf8fef5864334f2e81\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for the opportunity to speak on Part 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). I think it is interesting\u2014and somewhat rich\u2014for the Hon Jim Anderton, at this late stage, to be asking for the National Party to make changes to its position, after he belatedly came into the debate with a poorly prepared Supplementary Order Paper. After all, the situation of party pills, and the legislation for benzylpiperazine and other such substances, have been known about for 9 or 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe firm view of all the advisers was that they are at quite a different level from the serious substances such as methamphetamine and their precursors, and other class A and class B controlled drugs. The firm view was that the less concerning substances that are getting so much publicity at present need their own well-considered, stand-alone bill. Indeed, I believe that the select committee was of the view that that would be the optimal situation, but, instead, it has reached a compromise with the Hon Jim Anderton, where this less considered situation has been tacked on to the end of the bill. Because of that, National is uncomfortable with supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I, hopefully, will get the opportunity to talk about the details with the Hon Jim Anderton to see whether we can come to an arrangement. There is no doubt that National supports the substance of the original intention of this bill, which was to look at practical ways to ensure there would be better enforcement powers in New Zealand to stop the proliferation of class A and class B controlled drugs. There is absolutely no doubt that the situation has grown seriously over the last 4 or 5 years. We only have to look at substances like P, where we have had the police and the Institute of Environmental Science and Research saying that back in 1999 something like four or five clan-labs had been raided by the police. This has proliferated up into the order of 240, which reflects the enormous expansion of these illicit controlled drugs in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ECertainly, we believe that the affirmative resolution procedure, which was reluctantly agreed upon by the select committee back in 2001 when the first amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act came through, is a mechanism that should be used with great caution. The Regulations Review Committee has been absolutely clear about the need for this affirmative resolution procedure to be used very, very carefully. Because, after all, this gets to the heart of what democracy is about, and to the heart of what parliamentary procedures are about\u2014where there is time to duly consider legislation, time for submitters to have their views heard by the select committees and reported back on, and then for a bill to be adequately considered in the normal democratic way through our Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt seems a great worry to me that the Hon Jim Anderton wants to bypass this procedure, which should have limited scope in a Parliament such as ours, and where the Regulations Review Committee was crystal-clear that it should not be used other than in exceptional circumstances. I do hope the Minister will indeed explain to the Parliament exactly where he stands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00222207334766d24cecb4b722015dda620b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222207334766d24cecb4b722015dda620b\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E First of all I want to say that I am standing in for Barbara Stewart on this matter, and to indicate that New Zealand First is pleased to support this part of the bill. Before I go on I also want to indicate our support for the Supplementary Order Papers that have been put before the House by the Hon Mr Anderton. We certainly support the arguments that he has put up to substantiate the need for Supplementary Order Paper 377. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWe particularly support the proposed section 12AC, which is to be inserted into the Misuse of Drugs Act by clause 11 in Part 1 of the bill, where legislation that relates to precursor substances, such as ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, is strengthened. Both are key substances used in the manufacture of methamphetamine. We understand there is currently no offence relating to the import or export of precursors to the manufacture of methamphetamine. In fact, the legislation has not kept up with the trends of the day, so to speak. Given the adverse impact that this whole issue has, not only in this country but indeed the world, it needed to be responded to quickly, and we believe that this bill does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe lagging of the required legislation has meant that our law enforcement agencies, particularly the Customs Service and the police, have been hamstrung under the present law. It has also meant that the lesser charge of possession is the only charge that can be made in a whole lot of instances and, as we know, the penalties for possession are not as great as the penalties a person would face if charged with other matters related to this drug. In addition, it is difficult to make such a charge stick, where those substances are sent through the post, which has become a regular mode of transfer from one country to another. In that situation we need to ask who is actually in possession. That loophole needs to be closed and I believe that this bill will do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EParliament has a duty to support both the police and the Customs Service in their fight against the use of illicit drugs. This bill will certainly do that, particularly in the area of search and seizure requirements, and the amendments to that part of the Act are certainly appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First also supports clause 14 in this part of the bill, which shifts the onus of proof for possessing a needle or syringe so that it lies with the prosecution. We all know the importance of the use of needles and syringes, and the dangers that second-hand use can cause, particularly with reference to the transmission of HIV and related diseases. So I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to say that we support this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022a83309df5d464b59ac3e7ab3e8d07c41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a83309df5d464b59ac3e7ab3e8d07c41\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of this bill relates to substantive amendments to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975, and National supports this part. This was the original bill that came to the Health Committee after the first reading and it deals with the issue of precursor substances for the manufacture of P methamphetamine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhen I was at medical school, we had to study some drugs that were just given to us, and ephedrine was one of the drugs pulled out for me to study. So I did an intensive study on it and found that it had very little use apart from the fact that it dried up one\u2019s nose when one had a cold. At that time we did not realise that it would be used as a precursor for the very dangerous party drug, P, which has been responsible for a huge amount of harm in this country. That harm has come in the form of addiction, and we have seen many a TV programme on people who engage in theft to try to get the money to buy this drug and fuel their habit. Methamphetamine laboratories have been found throughout New Zealand. A large laboratory was found and destroyed in my electorate, Marlborough, 2 years ago. The people who engaged in that activity are now suffering the consequences, because P was able to be expeditiously scheduled under the Misuse of Drugs Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThat process was set up by Wyatt Creech and progressed by the Labour Government when it came to office in 1999. It allowed us to act very rapidly to put P methamphetamine on to a schedule, which meant that those who were found to be producing that drug could then suffer the most severe consequences in respect of penalties and time in prison. Then we found that there was no restriction on importing the precursor substances. As chemists did more to protect themselves against theft of cold remedies that had ephedrine and pseudoephedrine in them, people were found at the border with suitcases and suitcases of those drugs. They were bringing them across the border in order to produce methamphetamine, and there was nothing to stop them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThere was debate within the Health Committee about whether this bill should be used to schedule something like precursor substances, but everybody agreed that we should do so because we should be helping the police and the border control authorities to try to improve the situation regarding this drug. But the extension of that form of lawmaking has been of concern to the Regulations Review Committee, which said that significant matters of policy and principle should always be dealt with in the primary legislation that comes to this House, and that process has stood us in good stead for most of the time that this Parliament has been sitting. The process means all members of Parliament look at a law and examine a bill, and the bill is subject to the select committee process, where the public have the right to make submissions. Then we bring it back to the House and, in the Committee stage, we once again see whether we have got it right and try to make good legislation that will achieve the desired effect. So the Regulations Review Committee said that that was what we should do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe did make an exception to that with the expeditious scheduling of controlled drugs, because everyone here felt that the time it takes to get legislation through the House was too long for things like Ecstasy, Fantasy, or P, plus now the precursor substances. But when it comes to using that process for something that will need regulation\u2014that is, benzylpiperazine, a drug that the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs has said is not of high risk of harm\u2014National members have concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00227120c63a3575403cad0644bc76cf04ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227120c63a3575403cad0644bc76cf04ee\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in the Committee stage on Part 1 of this bill, and I want to signal now that I have tabled an amendment, and will be seeking support from the Committee for it. It is to do with the Order in Council provisions and a recent concern I have about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIt is important to state upfront that the Regulations Review Committee information to the Health Committee on the use of Order in Council provisions was very cautious. We know that that is often its approach to this sort of provision. United Future supports the use of Order in Council provisions within this bill where it allows us to respond with urgency to a situation that may develop. When a product comes on the market, or the drug scene in New Zealand changes in some circumstance, the police want the Government to be able to respond quickly and provide them with the legal framework they need to be able to act. There was some evidence that the methamphetamine situation might not have got away on us quite as quickly as it did if we had been able to respond a little more quickly to that situation, historically. We do not want to stifle that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EHowever, the problem that has developed with the Order in Council provisions is that, as the Act has been designed, they can be used in any direction. When one talks about recategorising a drug downwards\u2014softening the impact of the legislation\u2014by Order in Council, and that is not born out of a crisis of any kind but out of a policy desire, then I think the full scrutiny of Parliament, including the public submission process, should be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe concern that we have, and that my amendment addresses, is in section 4(1B)(b), in clause 5. I will read what it presently states: \u201C(b) the Order in Council increases\u201D\u2014and I think that was the word that some of us had perhaps misunderstood\u2014\u201Cthe amount, level, or quantity at and over which the controlled drug is presumed to be for supply.\u201D Well, I think some of us read that as meaning it was a tightening measure, as we have with methamphetamine. What we are trying to address in this part is that the amount one can have in order to be considered as having a drug for supply was set at too high a level, and we are trying to track it backwards, so that one can have a smaller amount in one\u2019s possession and be considered to be supplying it. That is extremely appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWhat does the wording here mean, when one understands what all the other substances in new schedule 5 of the principal Act are\u2014which is what we are talking about here? Let me give members a hypothetical situation. By Order in Council we could decide to increase the amount of cannabis at which one is considered to have it for supply\u2014I think it is something like 100 cigarettes\u2014to such a level that proving supply would be a complete nonsense. The police would have a huge amount of trouble proving it. My concern is that we could do that by Order in Council, with paragraph (b) in existence. As far as I am concerned, and United Future is concerned, the people we most want to see the law able to ping is those who are supplying our young people. The law must be very clear as to the point at which somebody is considered to have a drug for supply, and we must be able to identify those people very, very clearly. If we are able, by Order in Council, to put the amount up, then I think a very dangerous situation could develop around that schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESo my amendment removes paragraph (b)\u2014it just deletes it\u2014and I would encourage the Committee to support it. I just remind members that the Health Committee members did agree that the Order in Council must be used only in response to a crisis that the police bring to our attention. It should never be used to implement a policy to liberalise drug law. That was not actually a danger until Supplementary Order Paper 298 was introduced, which is now Part 3 of the bill. By introducing Part 3 we have created the opportunity for drugs that are now classified as C grade to be dropped down into a new category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022de7bec8c40b647ba965d3fa150f56cbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de7bec8c40b647ba965d3fa150f56cbc\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E It has been my experience in this Parliament that one can often get a better picture of legislation, and what is intended, if one comes to it completely fresh and has not been part of the process. I am happy to say that I have not been part of the process, so it was interesting to sit down this morning and freshly read the commentary back from the select committee, to read what the issues are, and then to make some determination about where I think I certainly would want to stand, and hopefully my party would want to stand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhat struck me very quickly with this was that although the National Party strongly supports the original Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3), the party has some very serious concerns about how far one extends the regulatory process to allow the inclusion on the list of banned substances. I can tell members of this House, having been here for 18 years, that I have had very strong views on something as an initial instinct, and then after having been through a very elongated select committee process with public submissions, and hearing from a number of officials, and not just the one official who may have been getting in one\u2019s ear from one department, that the solution has been not quite as simple as it first looked; what finally emerges from the parliamentary process might look quite different, and in many cases one\u2019s original instincts have been wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EFor that reason I would very, very much not like to support a regime that looks about to be put in place here, especially with Jim Anderton\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, that will allow a Minister, through Order in Council, to start adding things to controlled lists and to banned substances lists, just at a whim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI accept that there is some awful stuff out there. Nobody could want anything that P stands for to be in any way able to be sold, including all the precursors\u2014the ingredients that are used to make P. They have all got to be, somehow, controlled to stop the dreadful process going on. But I have to say that one can soon slip off the straight and narrow with that thinking, because there are some party pills and herbal pills around, and so on. Now that sounds awful\u2014party pills and things that make people feel better or give them a slight high. But in many cases a lot of those things do not do any more damage than a couple of glasses of wine. They sound like they are addictive, and that they are like heroin or cocaine, but in fact they are not as serious as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESo one immediately comes to a conclusion that there is a whole continuum, from things that are almost no damage at all. Maybe they do not do much but the kids think they make them feel good. I remember at Matamata College, one of the highs we used to get was putting an Aspro into a glass of Coca Cola and drinking it. That was supposed to give one a high. Well, we all pretended we got high but I understand that it makes no difference whatsoever. At the other extreme there are things like the heroins and the cocaines that one wants to ban. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI see the Regulations Review Committee making a very, very good series of recommendations here. We must not give to a particular Minister\u2014not just this Minister, but any other Minister\u2014some draconian powers to start getting in and banning stuff that is probably no more insidious or no more addictive than maybe alcohol or tobacco. We should not be allowing the bureaucrats to develop a wish list at a whim and be able to bang that through some form of a regulatory process without the proper scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI think ACT said the right words in its minority report. It said we need a proper legislative process to safeguard against some form of ad hoc hysteria. ACT\u2019s minority report stated: \u201CRegulations Review Committee warnings regarding amendment to primary legislation by Order in Council, subject to affirmative resolution have been largely ignored.\u201D I think that is right when I look back at the points that the National Party included in its minority report. It stated: \u201CWe are mindful of the Regulations Review Committee\u2019s statement that\u2014the affirmative resolution procedure should not proliferate, the affirmative resolution procedure should only be used in limited and exceptional circumstances, any extension to the affirmative resolution procedure on the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975 should only be permitted where it is: a necessary adjustment to altering the schedules of controlled drugs; essential in order to achieve the purpose of the Act in dealing with the serious risk of emerging drug threats.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI have to tell the Minister that I am sure that when a new drug called \u201CQ\u201D arrives on the scene\u2014the next one on from P, whenever it arrives\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248b72c70ecd04a81a45cfa1ccf15bd30\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It is here already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c723db58e63b4bcc80482e22a4e34e09\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if it is here already and \u201CQ\u201D is known to be a really serious, addictive, damaging drug like P is, I am sure this Parliament would want to almost\u2014no, I think it would be unanimously\u2014race to pass some legislation, but again with a proper process of consideration so that we did not suddenly ban \u201CQ\u201D. It is for that reason that the National Party will be voting against this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u00225609b4c25ff346b08e4d431fda9f4c74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225609b4c25ff346b08e4d431fda9f4c74\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to make a short intervention, because it is good to put the facts in the way of anybody\u2019s ignorance or prejudice. Mr Williamson says he comes to Parliament fresh to the issue. That actually that he does not know anything about it. To get up and say that, as though there is an important point he is making, is completely erroneous. The affirmative resolution procedure\u2014[Interruption] If Mr Williamson wants to deal with the drug issue, we will deal with it. This issue is not a party political issue. It is a serious issue that affects the lives and the future of a whole pile of young New Zealanders, and here we have Mr Williamson making a few cheap political points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E I point out\u2014[Interruption] Yes, he is still shouting them out. I point out that the affirmative resolution procedure is not a draconian procedure. It is a perfectly reasonable system for Parliament to use. Actually, it was one of National\u2019s own members, Wyatt Creech, who started the process in the first place, and I support it. I have discussed the matter with the Clerk of the House to make sure that this process is perfectly reasonable to use. Here is the process, and how draconian is this? The Cabinet of New Zealand has to consider an issue that it wants to go to the issuing of Order in Council. The Cabinet is not an outfit of cowboys who have just turned up on the night. Cabinet Ministers were elected to Parliament, and then they were elected to Cabinet. Cabinet considers whether the procedure goes to the issuing of an Order in Council. Mr Williamson describes that as some kind of whim of the Minister, but it is not. It is the collective decision of Cabinet. The procedure goes to the issuing of an Order in Council, and the Governor-General signs it on the advice of Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThen what happens? Does the Order in Council automatically become law? No, it does not. It goes to the select committee. Did Mr Williamson know that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225684267cd72544c3a29a10cd9d478c88\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f1b1d31c60e49ffb93a61a42b7d8e8f\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he did know that. But he says it is just a whim of the Minister, and the select committee does not have anything to do with it. Well, it has. The matter goes to the select committee for 28 days, and the select committee has to make a recommendation to Parliament\u2014not to Mr Anderton, or to any other Minister, but to Parliament. Who makes the decision on the recommendation from the Order in Council? Parliament does. So to Mr Williamson, Parliament is some kind of whim of the Minister. It may be under a National Government, but it is not under this one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EParliament decides this matter, and the process is determined by the fact that we have to be timely, democratic and relevant. How relevant is timeliness for Parliament? Last night we heard that 12 months should be all right to consider some of this stuff\u2014that is what we heard last night. I think there may be a bit of a change in attitude on that, but 12 months was mentioned, and sometimes 2 or 3 years. It took us about as long as that to reclassify methamphetamine. Is that dangerous enough for someone? It took about 3 years to do that. Is that adequate? No, it is not. Should there be a better process than that, which makes Parliament relevant? There surely should be. Is there now? Yes. Does most of the Parliament support it? Yes. Does Mr Williamson support it? No. That does not make any difference, I do not think. I think that the rest of Parliament is right and Mr Williamson is wrong. Before Mr Williamson comes down to this House and gives us the benefit of his fresh ideas, he should inform himself about the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00222fe66e86e27f43e09c1cf667ce32aa25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fe66e86e27f43e09c1cf667ce32aa25\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thought the contribution from the Associate Minister of Health was most unhelpful. If anybody is attempting to score political points on this issue, it was quite clear from that last contribution that the Minister was attempting to score political points. He has to look at himself in terms of the amount of hysteria he has created over this issue by making such contributions. Mr Williamson, in undertaking a huge amount of constituency work in his electorate, sees at the front line the sort of problem that these drugs create. I think his contribution was very well-thought-out and raised some pretty important questions that the Minister did not deal seriously with in his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EMany of the issues that come to Parliament are incredibly serious, but if we have a Minister who reacts to polls, public hysteria, or a lack of evidence about particular drugs, a whole bunch of things that have a normal, commonplace use will be banned. Imagine if the Government decided to do a poll on the use of hairspray or some nail polish removers! We get the impression from this Government that if a poll indicated that something was a point of huge concern to the public, a Minister would make a change and ban a whole group of products for which there was no evidence of harm. We are saying that knee-jerk reactions can be dangerous. Although the Minister in the chair might have huge confidence in his colleagues around the Cabinet table, that confidence is not shared by the rest of the country. We will have instances whereby Ministers, for the sake of a poll or for the sake of looking like they are doing something, want to ban products that have quite innocuous uses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt has been suggested that this measure go back to the select committee. Well, we all know that the Government has the numbers on select committees. A select committee will not raise pertinent issues with, or point out issues to, a Minister who is hell-bent on changing the status of a particular substance. A select committee will not tell the Minister that he is nuts, that he should not make those changes, and that, frankly, there is no evidence that certain things should be banned. So the measure would come back to Parliament. Frankly, no one will stand in the way of a Minister who wants to react to what he sees as an issue for the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe need to make decisions on banning substances based on scientific evidence. So far, when it comes to party pills we have not seen any scientific evidence. We have had a whole host of anecdotal incidents where party pills have been proved to be the problem. It is usually a mixture of substances. Sure, those incidents are very concerning to any parent, but the role of Parliament and the role of any Minister is to look carefully at the science, the evidence, and the information before making a considered decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe contribution from United Future is interesting. I think many of that party\u2019s amendments are more to do with a fear that cannabis will be legalised. I do not see that as being an issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we are seeing is a bill to raise the legal age for the purchase of liquor, and I think people should consider how they will vote on it. Many members in this Parliament will vote for 18-year-olds to be able to buy party pills, but then will raise the age at which people can buy alcohol. There is certainly more evidence about alcohol than there is about party pills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe cannot have knee-jerk reactions to those sorts of issues. We must act in a timely fashion, but with evidence, so that hysteria is not the basis for our making decisions about substances; otherwise, we will see a whole bunch of wacky decisions being made, driven by Ministers who want to react to public concerns about a particular issue that have no evidence to back them up. Yes, P has been an issue, but I do not think anything the Government could have done would stop it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba3c4e10967c431ba756b311b179ae7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba3c4e10967c431ba756b311b179ae7a\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to put a bit of reason into this debate and to point out that a step has been forgotten by the Opposition. With respect, Maurice Williamson was a wonderful former Associate Minister of Health, in terms of his attitude to the sensible regulation of drugs and management of drug policy, and I congratulate him on that. We all need to be reasonable about the way we approach this issue. What has been forgotten is the role of the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis was not the result of a decision of the Minister to put pressure on the Ministry of Health to get some evidence quickly on benzylpiperazine. The Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, which is far more reasoned and scientific in its decision on any drug, illicit or licit, raised concerns to the Minister on this matter. Yes, we on the Health Committee\u2014and members have forgotten this\u2014 also put a justice official on the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. We received evidence from the Ministry of Health about its concerns on benzylpiperazine, and it also raised concerns about the use of benzylpiperazine in conjunction with other drugs. The ministry did categorise it as being of \u201Clow risk\u201D in the recommendation. It was not the Minister\u2019s recommendation that benzylpiperazine, a low-risk substance, needed to be monitored very, very closely\u2014not politicians to monitor it, heaven forbid\u2014but a recommendation of the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, which is established in statute. The recommendation was not in response to receiving anecdotal evidence, as the Opposition members said. Yes, there has been a lot of hysteria about benzylpiperazine, but we received the ministry\u2019s report. It will be watching this drug very closely, and we urged that in our report back to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI want to put on the record here that this is not a case of the Minister or of Cabinet going around and finding another whacky idea that they think will get a few more votes. This is an issue that we should all take terribly seriously, and we should listen to the advice and the scientific evidence we received. Our problem here is what we should do about licit and illicit drugs, when we have a drug schedule and a statutory framework that looks only at illicit substances. The select committee made a very wise decision to deal with a substance that we were all very concerned about, rather than to tell officials to go away, draft more policy, consult, and come back to us with a restricted substances bill. We were not prepared to take the time for that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u00229afdc94dccfd4d2f8f2c6faa8af7137c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229afdc94dccfd4d2f8f2c6faa8af7137c\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take advantage in speaking to this bill. It is curious to me that we have such reticence about moving ahead with the drugs that this bill deals with\u2014the party pills and all the rest of it. It took 7 years\u20147 long years\u2014before anybody moved on methamphetamine. We let the cat out of the bag, and, unfortunately, the police are now having to go backwards to try to deal with methamphetamine. What I do not want to see is this bill put aside, not dealt with here, and party pills and all the rest of it allowed to go on unregulated and unhindered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that we may be able to assert that these party pills on their own may not cause the kinds of damaging effects that people might ascribe to them\u2014and I would disagree with that statement, too\u2014but the fact is that our young kids are using those pills in combination with alcohol and other drugs. We cannot isolate one aspect of it and look at just that. We have to look at the totality of the experience that young kids are putting themselves through, which endangers themselves and others, and, of course, it is hugely worrying to parents as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EMembers should be going to the police and speaking to them. They should see what the results of these drugs are. They will find a completely different picture from the one we find as we sit in the comfort zone of our own offices. Down on the street, where these drugs are actually being abused in combination with other drugs, it is a totally different story. Very close to my office in Christchurch there is one of these party pill shops. I see, night after night, young kids standing around there, snorting, inhaling, and taking pills. There is always a litter of syringes and nose-cans. It is a combinational thing, and it has to be attacked that way. It is crazy to imagine that we can simply turn a blind eye to this problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThis legislation is much needed. In the absence of anything else, we need this in order to protect our kids from themselves. Kids will experiment, but the problem is that they put themselves and everybody else at risk. This bill is one answer in terms of dealing with that. We can sit back and wait for all the research we want, but in the meantime real damage is done to real people out there, and it is time we acted proactively to deal with the scourge of party pills and other related drugs. The reality is that people taking these drugs are doing it in a way not considered in this House. That is a fact. We can sit here and debate until we are blue in the face about what should or should not be done\u2014we could take more time, do more research, and all the rest of it\u2014but it is the parents out there who look after their kids who are in trouble. Some kids come home worse for wear or have to be taken to hospital, and some die. That is the fact of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIf people want to be reticent about passing this legislation and hold back and wait for more and more evidence, all I can say is that the evidence is already in our hospitals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cba09b7caa474651a29fe6ce38ea8b61\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Part 1 we are debating, not Part 2 or 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249dbb0a38c444ed88c04a4a520113367\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just say to members that a lot of members have strayed across the paths, and I almost gave up trying to bring them back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d14727a859f6428e9ea861a457daa51f\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly right. It is quite a wide-ranging debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d652f748ff364ab38e9428b0f16622ea\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Please continue, Mr Alexander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259015909daf6430badc7fb0c9bdc02af\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s true that National\u2019s position is very unclear, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a602a6ceb64a4ed6b850478d1223e965\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: It is very unclear. My understanding is that National members will end up actually supporting this bill. That strikes me as being strange, because they want it both ways. On the one hand they want to bag the Hon Jim Anderton for putting this legislation forward, but on the other hand they want to support it. They want a bob each way. That is actually quite disingenuous because it says they want to bag the intention of the bill but they do not want the public to go against them and ask why they have not helped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that there is a huge public out there that wants something done. All we have to do is pick up the newspapers and read the letters that come in. They talk of doing something about the shops that sell such stuff; and it is not just what they sell\u2014it is the activities that are taking place outside these places of purchase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022de419b18a1614ee7ae5f0b84e3284414\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de419b18a1614ee7ae5f0b84e3284414\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am quite pleased to take part in this debate. I was going to confine my comments strictly to Part 1, but I feel the need to rebut some of the comments made by previous speakers, so I apologise if I stray a little from Part 1. The first thing I want to address is the comment made by Mr Williamson, who talked about the provision of the affirmative resolution procedure for classifying drugs under the new schedule. I think the member misunderstands the process. He seems to think that it is a simple Order in Council that will be done by ministerial whim. It is the same mistake that Judy Turner made, which led to her particularly distasteful amendment previously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe fact is that this is not a simple amendment by way of ministerial whim. It is actually an affirmative resolution procedure. It is a new procedure\u2014maybe the member is unaware of it\u2014and it requires a parliamentary process. It requires the matter to go to the select committee for 28 days, and for it to be debated and voted on in this House. I accept that there are problems. I think there should be a requirement to consult the public, because there is no requirement at the moment for either the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs or the select committee to consult the public. The other thing that I think is a problem with the process is that there is no ability for either the select committee or the House to amend the notice of motion. I think that that is a serious problem, and I think it is something that the Standing Orders need to address. If a matter comes before the House, the majority of members may agree in general with the proposal but think it is not quite right, and think a particular drug should be classified as a B2 instead of a B1, or as a D2 instead of a D1, if we get to those kinds of schedules. But the House has no ability to make those kinds of changes, and I think that is something that needs to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI would like to address the amendment put forward by Judy Turner. I thought it was quite extraordinary that she got up in the Chamber, told us she went through the Health Committee\u2019s process on the bill, which was pretty long\u2014we went through the bill in a great deal of detail\u2014and then told us she did not understand the amendment the committee has recommended. She seemed to think it was the opposite of what it was. That is not the kind of admission I would make to the Committee if I had made such a mistake, but that is up to the member\u2014she can tell us those things if she likes. And, of course, it is not the first time that Judy Turner has not understood the way the legislation works, but that is fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EJudy Turner expressed concern about the use of the affirmative resolution procedure to amend the presumption of supply levels. I was actually the member who raised that issue in the committee. The Regulations Review Committee was quite clear on the matter. It stated that the affirmative resolution procedure should not be used to amend the presumption of supply unless it is in association with the classification of a drug. It stated the procedure should be restricted to those circumstances only. I was the one who reminded the committee that we should listen to that advice. The committee, in the end, made the decision to put in a provision that allowed the presumption of supply to be amended by affirmative resolution, apart from classification, in one circumstance: where the amendment was to put the presumption of supply level up. The reason is that officials told us we had a serious situation whereby the presumption of supply level was set too low. People were being convicted on supply charges, when actually the drug was just for personal use. That is significant, because if the drug is a class A drug, the maximum penalty for supply is life imprisonment. It is a very serious thing; the maximum penalty is life imprisonment. The officials said that they needed the ability, if there is clear evidence that the supply level is set too low, to amend it pretty quickly, and that is what the committee agreed to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EPeople say that the supply level is not a problem, because if a drug is not for supply that can be proved in court. One of the difficulties with a presumption of supply is that there is a reverse onus. It is a basic undermining of the fundamental principles of justice\u2014of being deemed to be innocent until proven to be guilty\u2014because if a person has a certain amount of a controlled drug and it is over the presumption of supply level, then that person has to prove it was for personal use. The prosecution has to provide no evidence to back up the idea that the drug is for supply, except simply to state the amount. The defendant has to prove it is for personal use, and I just do not understand how he or she does that. How does a person go to a court and prove that the drug he or she has is for personal use? That seems to me to be a very difficult thing to prove. I think that one of the fundamental issues with regard to the Misuse of Drugs Act as a whole is that reverse-onus issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe committee received some advice about the presumption of supply issue. At first it was advised that the presumption of supply was to an evidential level of proof, not a legal one, which was satisfactory, but the correction to that advice was that it was actually to a legal level. The difference is that an evidential burden of proof means that the assumption is that the drug is for supply, but if a person can show evidence that it is not, then the prosecution has to prove it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6e6fef7e207403b9619551528cb2c21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6e6fef7e207403b9619551528cb2c21\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022b279cc8ed2bb4f32b8ef55efa6aeaa81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b279cc8ed2bb4f32b8ef55efa6aeaa81\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is of huge concern to Parliament and, hopefully, to the public of New Zealand when we hear the leader of the Progressive Party, the Hon Jim Anderton, making light of the affirmative resolution procedure. He said that it was not a draconian procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224724b0819ac3423ebf1161f0b8fe6fa0\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ecc7427560044f08204917cc2a0f578\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he is absolutely wrong. He should remember, and be reminded of, exactly what the Regulations Review Committee said about the affirmative resolution procedure. It said that the amendment of primary legislation by an Order in Council is commonly referred to as a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause, and is regarded as undesirable because it allows the executive the power to override Parliament. That is exactly what the Progressive Party, under the Hon Jim Anderton, would love to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHe then said that Wyatt Creech, some years ago, had no problem bringing it in. Well, it was brought in with very careful consideration, because of the extreme concern about the proliferation of controlled drugs in New Zealand, and the very, very important need to make sure that law enforcement agencies had some methods to be able to reduce this proliferation. But here we have the leader of the so-called Progressive Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a68c4d82e5004c1282dd7d380b137025\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201CJim Anderton Party\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ef6ea0b6ddd47a78a026a71d41f148f\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is what it should be called. But the very important principle is that the leader of the so-called Progressive Party said that this affirmative resolution procedure is not draconian. It is a very, very serious procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other point the Regulations Review Committee made was this: \u201CIn our view, the classification of restricted substances is a matter of significant policy that should be dealt with by primary legislation. If a matter needs to be dealt with urgently, there are ways of dealing with primary legislation in an expeditious manner.\u201D That is very, very important to remember. The other point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c337bfb35cd483e871b06ecabacac7b\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: The Regulations Review Committee said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc14f3810d34623b277dc38cfdb7a6e\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Regulations Review Committee said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204cc0d99982240b6a5117969a159cc00\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to repeat it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eea6c6a97c14cf4a5960a7ffcce326a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I will say it again, if the member likes, because it is absolutely the nub of the matter: if, indeed, a matter \u201Cneeds to be dealt with urgently, there are ways of dealing with primary legislation in an expeditious manner.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4e100aa9ad41b3a386c505dcd8425c\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: That was my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219bc858a052b403b8e901d9f70ef72ce\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly what the Hon Maurice Williamson was saying, and it is very, very important that Parliament is reminded of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other practical point that was brought up by the Regulations Review Committee was that the Health Committee could use up all its time on this particular matter. That is of great worry, because surely the Health Committee should be spending its time on much more important matters, like the proliferation of spending\u2014waste\u2014that has occurred under the Labour regime over the last 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut we also had Steve Chadwick, the member for Rotorua and chairperson of the Health Committee, saying that, no, this matter of affirmative resolution is actually not all that important, because the Government is putting someone from the Ministry of Justice on the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. That is great, but all the people that one puts on the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs do not make any difference in terms of the huge importance of the normal parliamentary process being carried out, when the leader of the Progressive Party, the Hon Jim Anderton, says that it does not matter, that there is a problem with party pills down in Christchurch, that he did not hear about it over the last 10 years but has finally woken up to it, so he will defy the normal, important democratic process and have a knee-jerk reaction to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is very, very important that the people of New Zealand realise the lengths that Jim Anderton and his party will go to in order to defy the normal democratic processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00225fcb6e925d9e4cedb1d9090028e52c69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fcb6e925d9e4cedb1d9090028e52c69\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022672cb9774de04a6f8f4c1156013edb84\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 90\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; Green Party 7; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 26\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000097\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Nandor Tanczos to clause 5(2) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000098\u0022\u003Eto omit subsection (1AA) from section 4.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c5f853d421b4ffeb8dbfcd52eea9d31\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 9; Green Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000099\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Judy Turner to clause 5(2) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000100\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b) from section 4(1B).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022191ba361397645a8aeaf64ccc6e9fdb7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000101\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Nandor Tanczos to clause 14 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000102\u0022\u003Eto omit subclause (1), and substitute the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000103\u0022\u003E(1)\tSection 13(1) of the principal Act is amended by repealing paragraph (aa).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa84ad1d5e344e4cb3a0524697ea3c19\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000104\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 377 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to Part 1, and the following amendments in his name to clause 5(2), be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000105\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of section 4(1A) the words \u201Cspecified in clause 1 of Schedule 5\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000106\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (c) from section 4(1A).\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000107\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022298d9a41a00b4fd7936c0669dfe0caa8\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 1978 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd2be118626f4fec94114fbdc7839944\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd2be118626f4fec94114fbdc7839944\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E This part of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) deals with search and seizure. It also deals with the ability of our police to be able to do their jobs at the border. We totally support Part 2. Our police and our border control people try to do a very good job there. They were very hamstrung by the fact that there was no ability to do anything about someone who turned up in New Zealand, having come from Asia or other places overseas, with case after case full of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, as a precursor drug for the manufacture of P. Obviously, if a case is opened and is found to be stuffed full of those pills, we know that the pills are not for regular use. But there was no legislation to prevent that from happening. The National Party totally supports being able to use the expeditious scheduling procedure, set up by Wyatt Creech, to enable those precursor substances to be put into the Misuse of Drugs Act, and to allow the police to then prosecute those who act to bring those sorts of precursor substances into New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe people who are bringing the precursor substances in are doing it, simply and utterly, so that they can manufacture P. P has caused a huge amount of harm in our society. I remember when that first became an issue. A friend of mine who has since died, an older man who gave a great deal of community service, came to see me one day because he was part of Victim Support. He told me he could not believe what he was seeing. He was seeing men with good jobs, who had always been substantial members of the community, but who had just taken one of the party drugs because they were out somewhere and someone had offered it to them, and they had gone completely off their heads. They had attacked taxi-drivers, gone home and attacked their wives, and been involved in a huge number of violent episodes. He told me those people had ruined their lives, just through taking one pill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhen pseudoephedrine and ephedrine have become methamphetamine, they increase the neurotransmitters in the brain, and sometimes that makes people go absolutely crazy. Some horrendously violent crimes have been committed in this country by people who have been high on P. The other day a grandma came into my constituency clinic to talk to me about her grandson, who is 15 and is addicted to P. She was bringing her daughter to come and talk to me too, but the daughter was at home, dealing with the police, because the young man had threatened to kill his two sisters. They took it very seriously\u2014and so they should\u2014because the episodes of violent crime and the psychosis that we are seeing with methamphetamine usage are a very serious issue for New Zealand indeed, and our young people need to realise the substantial risk involved. But it is not just young people who are affected. As my friend Alan said to me, some older people in their 30s and 40s, who have been really good and substantial members of the community, have also been drawn into taking party pills or methamphetamine as a one-off, and are having severe episodes that have absolutely ruined their lives. We need to do everything we can to stop the people in this country who, for the sake of making a lot of money, engage in producing those drugs of abuse. National supports doing something about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI listened to some of the speeches, especially the ones given by United Future members, previously. I do not think they understand the issue. We totally support doing what we can to control any drug that the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs says has a high degree of harm. The issue is the process that is being used to regulate drugs of low harm, which is the classification the expert advisory committee gave to benzylpiperazine. The Health Committee had a huge amount of debate on how to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00220bc9c94e1f0a4e62a799ffe33645ff5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bc9c94e1f0a4e62a799ffe33645ff5e\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 again is one of the very important parts of this bill because it allows our customs agents and other law-enforcement agents to react to the very, very extraordinary and special techniques that are being used more and more by some of the criminal gangs that are attempting to smuggle illicit drugs into New Zealand. The methods they are using are becoming more and more sophisticated and therefore it is hugely important to have a mechanism to meet the sorts of things they are doing to feed the drug trade in New Zealand, and to control the growing problem that we see here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI do absolutely agree with my colleague Dr Lynda Scott, who mentioned just how drastic is the seriousness of the risks associated with some of these controlled drugs, such as methamphetamine and their precursors. There is no doubt that not only can they be addictive, but that the bizarre psychotic reactions associated with their ingestion have led to some of the most horrific crimes that we have seen in New Zealand\u2019s history. Therefore, it is important that special legislative circumstances are taken to give the enforcement agents the required teeth necessary to make some difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is important to reiterate once again that that is why the Hon Wyatt Creech brought in the expeditious scheduling of controlled drugs and their precursors. This is a very real and serious problem, and it is hugely important to use exceptional techniques for this problem in those unique situations. It is very important to realise that the expeditious scheduling and the affirmative resolution process should be used only for specifically unique circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThis part of the bill deals with allowing delivery of unlawfully imported drugs for purposes of detection, seizure of items found during search warrants, and international controlled delivery and liability for offences. I think it is worth pointing out that new section 12D(3), inserted by clause 26, again provides for some exceptional circumstances. It states that a: \u201C\u2026 Customs officer, or officer of a relevant law enforcement agency \u2026 who is involved in an international controlled delivery\u2014(a) does not commit an offence under section 6(1)(a), 12AB, or 12AC of the principal Act by reason of taking part in that international controlled delivery; and (b) unless he or she is acting in bad faith, is not subject to any criminal or civil liability as a result of taking part in that international controlled delivery.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne might say that some of the aspects of this part of the bill, including those involved with international controlled deliveries and rub-down searches and strip-searches that are required to occur, perhaps are exceptional things that normally we would not want to have other than under extreme circumstances. Well, the circumstances are extreme. That is why they are included in the bill. That is why the National Party has no hesitation in supporting this part of the bill. But even then, once again it is important to realise that some of the drug importers or smugglers into this country are using methods whereby people ingest packages and try to take them through the border. It is very important to be able to have the powers to confine those people in hotels, sometimes for up to 2 or 3 weeks, to wait for that package of a controlled substance to finally emerge so that an arrest can take place for that individual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022d21ceb42f5ab4f7680dfdea2360c061d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d21ceb42f5ab4f7680dfdea2360c061d\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E It is with a certain amount of trepidation that I take another call, because when I took what I thought was a reasonably moderate call on Part 1 and said that there were some concerns about giving powers to a Minister\u2014not the Minister in the chair, Jim Anderton; I was not trying to be nasty to him\u2014Jim Anderton of the Jim Anderton party, who is going to set up a regime that will live for a thousand years, got up and savaged me. As members can tell, I am quite nervous now, because I get worried when people savage me. I kept thinking that I have to pay respect to a man with Jim Anderton\u2019s ability. No one in the history of this world has self-named a party, as that man has. There was the Napoleonic era, but did Napoleon call his party the \u201CNapoleon Party\u201D? No. The same was true of the Elizabethan era. But we are to have the Andertonian era, with a glorious leader and some sort of Kim Il-Sung of North Korea - type equivalent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWe will even have to change our names. Matt Robson is out there right now, changing his name to \u201CJim Anderton II\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260bf37ac90e94b16ac7c45fbafd269e0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2086c340cdd4c7c872f2f6fa5ab6723\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will come to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022548d1e5a5f8c48269fcba5f74c1d2b8f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not the issue.There is a correct name for the party you are referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9e032cb2433439aa991a7c59f90ea80\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is the Jim Anderton party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281e69697107a4173899b370e9a2e0497\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8151ce1dacf49a699412f770a3f69fe\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but the party has applied to the Electoral Commission to change its name to Jim Anderton\u2019s Progressive party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd622de006af4f8f8fe37ecbd4e2a456\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Not for parliamentary purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220230af8b9cf44be78227c654c7862f99\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: It gets even better! The name is not for parliamentary purposes. Calling oneself the Jim Anderton party is something one does in the privacy of one\u2019s own bedroom, but not out in public. At any rate, the leaders of the past\u2014Fidel Castro, Leon Trotsky\u2014never called a party after themselves. The Jim Anderton party told me I was wrong and evil, and I apologise to its glorious leader. I hope the regime lasts for a thousand years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658d6e5f91fd4239bb3f4d646c1e13d0\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re easy to savage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220be874817e2493daa9ff1a8bd81e425\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am; I know that. I am such a delicate little flower that I take those things very personally. But I looked up the books, and saw that Mao Tse-Tung did not name the Communist Party of China the \u201CMao Tse-Tung Party\u201D. He was not as arrogant as that. Lee Kuan Yew, who took over Singapore and ran it for three decades, did not name a \u201CLee Kuan Yew Party\u201D. But Jim Anderton\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f85b9b13b95841bba807938d5141b5a9\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Where is this in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7d56f0fc36438e93029ef720d31019\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is not in the bill, but I am surprised the bill is not called the \u201CJim Anderton Bill\u201D. Why is it not the \u201CJim Anderton Bill\u201D? What a silly name the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) is. The bill should be the \u201CJim Anderton Promotion Bill (No 3)\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205a95ffbe97e4d5b9334762ee7c448b8\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Parliamentary purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf9b9155f43e437e860275046cdf0bad\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for parliamentary purposes only, and not to be taken at home. That is what the Jim Anderton party is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI make it clear that the National Party does support Part 2, which contains the search and seizure provisions. I know I will get another absolute rogering from the Jim Anderton party, and I am sorry about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a8e7baa55504cfa89f91b94c44a757d\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Strip-searched!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224ed9a677bb545caaedcac4ca9bd603a\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: There will be a strip-search by the Jim Anderton party. But I make it clear we support the bill, because we do know there are certain things in it. As my colleague Lynda Scott pointed out, someone who comes through the border with a suitcase absolutely packed with cold and flu remedies that contain all the precursors one needs to head off to a big cook-up to make P is clearly not carrying it for personal use. That person could not use all those remedies in the thousand years that the Jim Anderton party regime will last for. They could not be used personally. So I am really happy that the National Party is supporting this part. I am sorry I got savaged on the first part. I will wait to take my medicine for the next part when it comes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00224d2c915edc8b46048fc6214cf8933fff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d2c915edc8b46048fc6214cf8933fff\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First is quite clear as to what we are talking about in this part. The bill\u2019s title is the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3), and not the name of a particular party. Of course, after the election we will not be worrying about names. The only name that will be prominent will be New Zealand First\u2019s. I stand to support this part. These changes provide the Customs Service and the police with the necessary powers to enable them to effectively detect the presence of controlled drugs, and to take appropriate action. I must say that the example my colleague from Pakuranga mentioned, about visitors coming to this country, loaded down with a whole lot of drugs for medicinal purposes, could raise an issue, as we witnessed on a recent TV programme that featured a lady who came into the country loaded down with particular drugs that, she alleged, were for personal medicinal use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis part indicates to us that it is absolutely essential in the fight against drugs. What is the point of wanting to eliminate illicit drug use and the consequences of that use, if the law does not provide the tools for our law enforcement agencies? This part now means that customs and police officers will be able to carry out personal searches on the basis of believing, on reasonable grounds, that a person is in possession of the drugs listed in clause 26. In essence, this part strengthens the ability of the Customs Service and the police in the fight against the illicit use of drugs. It is a known fact that drug use, which this bill is about, is a growing and serious problem. The considerable harm that is caused invariably impacts not only on those who are directly involved but also on their families and the wider community, in which many members are innocent parties in the whole sad episode. The drug P is a drug that we are hearing more and more about\u2014particularly the consequences of its use, which are disastrous. I think that there are enough recent cases to suggest that this law is long overdue. We believe it could be strengthened, and we will certainly address that issue in the debate on the next part. However, I stand to take a short call to say that we support this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00227eb84bba44ba48bc85317eda8a48be3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227eb84bba44ba48bc85317eda8a48be3f\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E National wholeheartedly supports this part, because it will assist Customs Service officials to do their job. When I speak with pharmacists, people in the Customs Service, and pharmaceutical representatives, they tell me that the issue is less to do with problems regulating the products once they get into the country and more to do with border security. People bring in large quantities of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine in order to produce P once they are here, and put forward the argument that they are bringing those substances into the country for personal use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E Quite clearly, if someone turns up to an airport with suitcases full of that stuff, they are not using it for personal use. But it has been incredibly difficult for customs officials to prove that, and I think we are seeing here some tightening up of their abilities to deal with problems at our borders. We need to get a handle on the amounts of those substances that are imported. Although we can work with pharmacies to ensure that regulated substances are marketed and sold in a managed way, we can do more by assisting customs officials to be able to deal with the wide range of problems they face when people try to bring those substances into the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis part clarifies what the Customs Service is able to do. It is quite detailed in that it lays out what can and cannot be done during a strip search or rub-down search, and what can be required of a person coming into the country with suitcases full of cough medicine. It makes very clear what the Customs Service can ask a passenger coming into this country to do or not to do. I think that will tidy up some of the problems that have been faced in the past and some of the challenges that have been made when people have come through customs with, quite clearly, more goods than they would ever possibly use in a lifetime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe issue is why there is that level of detail. In the past it has been proven that the level of detail in legislation\u2014when it comes to strip searches, as one example\u2014is very important. When the law is not clear, people will come in, challenge it, and get off, in many cases, on a technicality or because the law does not speak in a very detailed way about a particular incidence. That is why section 13EC, \u201CDefinition of strip search\u201D, inserted by clause 27, goes through in quite some detail what officials may require a person who is being searched to do. It is very clear that it is a very full list. Hopefully, we will not see any loopholes, and people being able to get off quite serious charges on technicalities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EDetail is important, but I am not sure that we need the level of detail in some aspects of the bill. I draw the Committee\u2019s attention to clause 29, which specifies that the Commissioner of Police and the chief executive of the New Zealand Customs Service must report to Parliament on the number of rub-down searches and strip searches undertaken by members of the police. I just wonder why we need that level of detail when every member of Parliament knows that, through a parliamentary question or a question in the House, we have access to that information. Why does it need to be specified in law? We live in a country that is increasingly over-regulated, and I would like the Associate Minister of Health just to describe and explain, I suppose, why, in that particular provision, we need to be quite so specific. It may be something to do with the police and their ability to provide information that perhaps needs to be specified in the law. I am not sure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESome good points have been made in this debate by my colleagues, particularly about resources for the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc3c4a2d3b0e438b83e817d2500c46f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc3c4a2d3b0e438b83e817d2500c46f5\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a very brief call on Part 2 in the Committee stage of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3), just to say that United Future is very supportive of the provisions. We congratulate the Associate Minister of Health, Jim Anderton, on providing border staff with some additional strengths. I think it is great that the bill defines very clearly the raft of searches that can be done. Because of privacy issues it is good to be very clear, so that the power to search is not abused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe thing in this part that particularly interests me is the ability for controlled deliveries to occur. Really, when we look at all the strategies around drug use and drug abuse in this country, we see that we need to be particularly vigilant to cover those people who make a living from the suffering and addictive behaviours of others. For the Customs Service in concert with the police, when they know that a delivery is coming, to be able to allow it to happen, to monitor it, to pick up on the whole down-line process, and to see, often, particularly in terms of precursor substances coming in, where it is being delivered and who is manufacturing it\u2014to keep track of the whole system\u2014means that the net that officials can throw is much wider, and that is an extremely good development. United Future wants to support the police in this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI really want to say just that we are very supportive of these provisions and very glad that the Minister has taken this step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 377 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to, and Part 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002217443ba047514f6292d5459107d213cb\u0022\u003EPart 3  Restricted substances\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcde915ff99c415a8ae596f9a425c6de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcde915ff99c415a8ae596f9a425c6de\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate includes debate on schedule 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1cb609edcbf49e1b40b9293f680212c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1cb609edcbf49e1b40b9293f680212c\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It is Part 3 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) that National has grave concerns about. We have grave concerns about the knee-jerk way that the Hon Jim Anderton has rushed to bring in a Supplementary Order Paper that has been put as Part 3, when there has been absolutely crystal-clear guidance from the Regulations Review Committee that the affirmative resolution procedure should not be used for substances such as party pills and benzylpiperazine, with which it will deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is worthwhile just to look at the evidence regarding benzylpiperazine given to the Minister by the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. The executive summary concluded that insufficient information was available on which to base a recommendation to classify those substances in the schedules of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. The recommendation was absolutely clear, but the Hon Jim Anderton of the new \u201CJim Anderton Party\u201D, which used to be known as the Progressive Coalition, is defying the very important process that the Regulations Review Committee warned against. Oh no, he will put that resolution procedure into Part 3! It is because of that that the National Party has said it does not agree with this. We have made the commitment to bring through, when in Government, well-considered legislation that indeed addresses in an appropriate way the very concerning problem of party pills in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThat legislation will allow the proper parliamentary procedure to occur, and submissions will be able to be heard not in 28 days but in a time that is appropriate to hear them properly, so that we can have well-considered legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E It is important to point out that we heard some pretty colourful submissions regarding Part 3 of the bill, including from members of the Social Tonics Association of New Zealand, otherwise known as \u201CSTANZ\u201D. They pointed out that members of the Social Tonics Association of New Zealand have sold an estimated 8 million servings of benzylpiperazine and related products in the past 5 years, with no credible evidence, they say, of these products causing significant harm. Indeed, this is the nub of the situation: these drugs, while they are of great concern to New Zealand\u2014and it is a particularly great concern that many young New Zealanders are taking them\u2014do not fall into the category of the very, very worrying controlled substances such as amphetamine, P, and its precursors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is worthwhile to point out what the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs says about these substances, and about benzylpiperazine, which is the most commonly used, in particular. It states: \u201CThey are stimulant type substances that produce effects similar to known amphetamines and hallucinogens.\u201D However, the effects are of nowhere near the severity of those of drugs that fall into the controlled A, B, and C classifications. The advisory committee states: \u201CThere is indeed some concern over the increase in supply of these products, which are marketed and distributed independently over the internet, through counter-culture retailers, and more recently in liquor outlets, service stations and dairies.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThat, indeed, is how Jim Anderton has finally woken up to the fact that they are being sold all around Christchurch, where his electorate is. Finally, in a truly dinosaur-like reaction, after 10 years of the gradually increasing proliferation of these party pills, Jim Anderton has woken up and decided to flick in a Supplementary Order Paper to sort the problem out, but unfortunately that Supplementary Order Paper has not been well considered. The National Party believes that thoroughly considered legislation should be brought in to address this worrying problem of party pills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00226207701012d6434b99670819da928c60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226207701012d6434b99670819da928c60\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 deals with a new class of restricted substance. It puts in place the same sorts of regulations that we currently have around tobacco and alcohol: restriction to those aged 18 and over, health warnings on products, advertising controls, and, of course, penalties if people break the law. And there will be restrictions around what is good manufacturing practice for these pills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs said that benzylpiperazine is not a drug that causes serious harm. I think that drug was a cattle drench to start off with; I think that is where it originated. There are people out there who will use all sorts of things. The minute we regulate for it, there will be something else. We are not just talking about benzylpiperazine. That is why National has concerns\u2014because in the future other drugs, other substances, will be used. Because there will be other substances, we need a process that we feel is robust and has been well considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI ask members to think about the other things that are used. Datura is something the effect of which I, as a doctor, dealt with just about every year, when young people who had taken it would come in to the accident and emergency department. Datura produces atropine. It makes people slightly crazy, makes their eyes dilate, and makes them very hot, but it gives them a high, and every year people poison themselves on this drug. The plant grows around New Zealand, and people are sometimes stupid enough to try to manufacture a psychoactive substance from it and take it. I am not sure if there have been deaths from this drug, but many people have certainly got very close to dying from it. Then there are magic mushrooms, which people go and pick. We hope they do not manage to eat death cap mushrooms and completely ruin their livers so that they need liver transplants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EPeople will go and find other substances to use. It would be better if we were looking at the reasons why our young people feel they have to take those sorts of things to have a good time. I guess that is one of the reasons why there is concern about these party pills. Even though the expert advisory committee said these pills carry a low risk of harm, they condition our young people into thinking they have to take a pill in order to have a good time. Some of it may just be a placebo effect. We know in medicine that, in 30 percent of cases where people take a sugar pill believing it will do something good for them, it actually does, because of what is called the placebo effect. That young people get into this mindset that they cannot have a good time\u2014that they cannot get a natural high, that they cannot enjoy an evening out\u2014without taking something to help them do so is, I think, of great concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe have to ask ourselves why we have such a high youth suicide rate, why we have such poor statistics in relation to our youth. I believe that some of it is to do with their low self-esteem, and that that is why they feel they have to use alcohol to loosen up a bit, or have to take a pill to make themselves more sociable. Those are some of the issues we need to deal with\u2014along with the breakdown of the family and the social decay that make these children feel that that is what they have to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAlthough the National Party has concerns about this area and would like to see restrictions, we believe that Part 3 should have come in as a separate bill. We could then have called for submissions on it, so that we hit the target that we want. We have seen time and time again legislation with good intentions\u2014and I think Part 3 has good intentions\u2014that misses its target, and we end up coming back to it to make amendments, to change things. That actually makes things more difficult, not better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EBenzylpiperazine does need restriction. This bill will pass today, and we will see that restriction put in place. But the minute that substance is restricted, there will be something else being used. We need to know whether the process that is being set up by this bill will actually work. All that Part 3 does is restrict advertising, restrict the sale of substances to under-18-year-olds, and make sure that there is good manufacturing practice. That is another concern. It is not just the main substance in the tablet; it is what gets puts in with it that, as we have seen with some health products, can cause harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u00227cd16251c367488498fb486f8563b55f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cd16251c367488498fb486f8563b55f\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to know why the National Party wants to have it both ways on this part. We are told that these drugs have been a problem for the last 10 years. If there has been a problem for the last 10 years, then, at least on reasonably primitive arithmetic, for half of that time the National Party was in Government. What did it do? The answer is \u201CNothing\u201D. We are now trying to do something, and we are told that we should have done it 10 years ago when National was in Government. Oh, really? I can see one of those Tui advertisements coming up: \u201CYeah, right.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EMr Hutchison said that this a worrying problem. But what did he suggest? He suggested that it was too difficult. This is like the process police. I suggest that he go out and ask the parents in shopping malls in New Zealand what they think. Mr Hutchison thinks this problem exists only in Christchurch. Does he go anywhere else in New Zealand than where he lives? Does he understand what is going on in the hinterland, in the regions of New Zealand? No. He should ask the parents of 12-year-olds in shopping malls, who actually get proselytised and promoted to by those who are pushing these drugs, what they think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe National Party\u2019s view is that it is difficult, we should think about it, and we should wait and see. Is that what parents think? No, it is not. It is \u201Cmake my day\u201D time as far as the rest of New Zealand is concerned in relation to the kind of attitude Mr Hutchison takes. He said that this part is the whim of a Minister. Does he realise that the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs advised me as Minister to take a precautionary position on this matter and to, for example, restrict the age of sale\u2014which is exactly what this bill does? Is the National Party for it, or against it, or has it not made up its mind? Will it repeal the provisions under the affirmative resolution process? I ask National to answer that. It has railed against a process that delivers on time, in a timely way, changes that address immediate, acute issues in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E National members say that this is a terrible legal process and that it is undemocratic, even though it goes through an Order in Council process, through the select committee, and back to Parliament. They call it a draconian whim. Well, there may be one thing worse than a \u201CJim Anderton Party\u201D, and that is a \u201CDon Brash Party\u201D. If Don Brash is the answer, there must have been a very silly question in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225195d127a974ff08abf13b8b3ae164b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Would they repeal it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221237d7eaca6d4e059faabcefe6874b3d\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they can tell us whether they would repeal it. That would be honest. I can understand that. They can say that it is such a terrible process, and that when National becomes the Government\u2014in another 30 years\u2019 time\u2014they would repeal it. I ask them to tell us that, so that I can have some respect for their position. But this posturing around the place is ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003ELicit substances\u2014and benzylpiperazine has been one up until now, and still is\u2014are not necessarily without danger. I ask members to read the coroners\u2019 reports on the kids who have died from solvent abuse. Members should read the coroners\u2019 letters to Associate Ministers of Health, like me, that ask us to do something about this stuff\u2014and then write back to them and to say that it is too hard: \u201CLook, I am sorry, we are only the Parliament of New Zealand. What do you expect us to do?\u201D! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EWhy did I get elected here\u2014to do nothing? Coroners have written to me saying that they have presided over the inquest of five young kids who died from solvent abuse, and they have asked whether I could try to do something about it. Well, the Opposition would say: \u201CNo, I am sorry. We are thinking about it. We do not know.\u201D It is ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe Health Committee, to its credit, addressed the issue, did its best on it, and referred it back to me and said that it was a bit hard and it would have to be looked at. Well, we will look at it, and I am getting urgent advice on that. That has been in the too-hard basket for so long that it is ridiculous. In truth, more kids die from solvent abuse than from party pills, or anything like that, so we have to address that. In reality, of course, not all outlets are irresponsible. Some retail outlets, such as The Warehouse, have taken off the shelves some of the licit substances like butane, which has actually killed kids, and they actually sell them responsibly. Unfortunately, not everyone is like that. I give credit to them and others who do the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EParliament cannot just say that it is too hard and that we cannot do anything about it. Not all outlets are so responsible. People want to know what Parliament will do about it. This party in Government, supported by responsible Opposition and supportive parties in the House, is giving support to doing something. I wish the National Party would make it clear whether it was for or against it. We have had so many positions put by the National Party that we would not have a clue whether it is for or against it, whether it wants to repeal provisions, or whatever else. I am getting very clear messages from most of the Parliament that it is strongly supportive of this. I think the National Party should say yes or no. If it is not supportive of it, it should say whether it would repeal the provisions. Let us hear it, and then we will know. I think the rest of us want to get on with this bill and get it into law as fast as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00224a9feb2f7d6b44518ce77e5ed71c1a49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a9feb2f7d6b44518ce77e5ed71c1a49\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I must say it was quite strange to hear Lynda Scott talking about the other substances that are already available. It is quite true, but that was one of the issues the Health Committee addressed quite carefully in the way that \u201Csubstance\u201D is defined. It includes any mixture, preparation, or article manufactured for the primary purpose of inducing a psychoactive effect. That is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the category is opened up so that new substances can be added. Let me add, once again, that it was the Green input that actually got that definition, because the committee was looking at restricting it to simply benzylpiperazine alone, and it would have been a major mistake if we had gone in that direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI will address three of my amendments. One amendment is to clause 36, \u201CMatters to which Minister must have regard before recommending Order in Council under section 34(1)\u201D. The bill puts forward a number of criteria that the Minister must have regard to that are in addition to the matters already set out in the primary Act, in section 4B(2). I made the point in the second reading stage that I do not understand why we would have one set of criteria for controlled drugs classified under A, B, or C class, and a different set of criteria for those under D class. As I said before, it suggests that we have already determined what classification we will make, before we have even looked at the criteria and the evidence. It makes obvious sense to have one set of criteria, incorporating both those sets, for all substances, and then the recommendation of where they should be classified would drop out of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWhy would we not want those criteria to apply to any drug? Let us look at them. In clause 36(2)(b)(v) one of the matters is \u201Cthe risk of encouraging persons to use more dangerous substitutes in place of the substance:\u201D. I take the example of khat, which, I understand, is a class C drug. It is a bush that Somalian and North African people have been chewing for a long time as a mild stimulant. If we were going through the evidence-based criteria that we now have in place, which we did not have when khat was classified, would we not want the Minister and the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs to consider whether making khat illegal might encourage North African people to use a more dangerous stimulant? Would we not want to ask that question? Would we not want to know? Would we not want that to be considered? It is unbelievable to me that we think those criteria do not apply in terms of classifying drugs as A, B, or C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESubparagraph (vi) refers to the matter of \u201Cwhether alternatives to restrictions or requirements imposed on the substance are available and are likely to be effective in reducing the risks or harm resulting from abuse of the substance.\u201D Surely, we would want to ask whether there were alternatives to making people criminals. Surely, we would want to consider that, to have it in our mind, and to make it part of the equation. I hope members will support my amendment to clause 36 in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other amendment is to clause 58. As I have said before, the enforcement powers are very draconian. At the moment, if an enforcement officer\u2014health officer\u2014or member of the police believes that an offence has been, is being, or will be committed, he or she has the right to go in and seize any restricted substance, document, or record. That could put someone out of business if there are no safeguards around that. My amendment states that it has to be done by warrant\u2014not just because a police officer or health officer believes that there is an offence. There has to be some evidence, some basis for that belief. That is quite appropriate, and is like most legislation in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of the amendment is a time limit. If officers seize any substance, they may not retain it for any longer than 72 hours unless an information is laid in respect of the relevant serious offence. The situation at the moment is that a health officer could say: \u201CI think you\u2019re going to commit an offence sometime in the future.\u201D, and could then go in and seize all the products off a person\u2019s shelf, and seize his or her computer records. The officer would never have to charge the person, or to give the items back, but could just hold on to them forever. That will simply put people out of business; that will destroy businesses. There has to be some safeguard. If people break the law, of course they should be punished. But this legislation opens the door to punishing people who are abiding by all the laws and regulations, and simply gives unrestricted power. If members look at other kinds of offences, they will see that my amendment is quite in line with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a809123760f04f92aaf7a00f11b56996\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a809123760f04f92aaf7a00f11b56996\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I call on the Associate Minister of Health to take another call, because there seems to be a glaring inconsistency in his thought processes with regard to this bill and another bill before the House that aims to increase the drinking age. Both of those bills were brought forward to the House by the Progressive Party. I would like the Minister to explain why it is OK for an 18-year-old to buy a party pill, yet why, according to the Minister, that young person is not able to make the decision to buy a beer until he or she is 20 years old. Why does the Minister assume that a New Zealand citizen is responsible enough to make a decision about whether he or she buys benzylpiperazine, but not responsible enough to make a decision about whether he or she buys a glass of wine? There is a major, glaring inconsistency in the approach of the \u201CJim Anderton Party\u201D to this issue. It is saying that it is OK for young people to buy party pills at the age of 18, but if they want to buy a beer at the pub they need to be 20. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe Minister told National members to go into the shopping malls and explain our position to concerned parents. I say to that Minister that he should go into shopping malls and tell parents why it is OK for New Zealand youth to buy party pills when they are 18, when he is going to turn round and vote to raise the drinking age for alcohol. That is not consistent\u2014there is a glaring inconsistency. He is saying that young people are responsible enough to make a decision about one licit substance, yet are not responsible enough to make a decision about another licit substance that has been in our community for centuries. I ask the Minister where the logic is that allows him to vote for the regulation of the sale of party pills to 18-year-olds, yet also allows him to say that he does not trust young people with the ability to make a decision about whether they share a beer with their parents or friends, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThere is no consistency in the two bills the Minister\u2019s party has brought before this House\u2014well, Part 3 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) has basically been brought to the House by his party, although it is now incorporated into a Government bill. There seems to be no logic in the dual positions the Minister is currently holding about two substances that are legal in this community. I would like him to explain how he will vote to allow New Zealand kids to buy party pills and herbal highs, yet will tell them they are not responsible enough to buy a beer or to make a decision about alcohol\u2014which is something the community has had a lot more experience with than some of the herbal highs and substances we have seen proliferate in our communities in the last few years. The Minister has asked us to make his day by explaining our position; I would like him to make our day by explaining that glaring inconsistency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThere does not seem to be a helluva lot of logic in trying to regulate two different licit substances and saying to New Zealand citizens that they need to be 18 to buy one substance yet 20 to buy another. Although we have all this feigned concern about what is going on in the community, it seems to be more about politics and winning votes for the \u201CJim Anderton Party\u201D as opposed to really dealing with the issues consistently and logically, with evidence and science, and bringing in laws that are consistent and that make some sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe other point I would like to bring up in relation to Part 3 concerns the definition of \u201Csubstance\u201D. We all know that people who are involved in drugs will try to work around regulation, so why does the bill define \u201Csubstance\u201D as something that has the primary purpose of inducing a psychoactive response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u002211a4025fd85349cdaca9684417e418db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211a4025fd85349cdaca9684417e418db\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I will give just a brief explanation. At least at the end of my explanation people will understand my position; I still do not understand National\u2019s position, even after I have heard that speech\u2014and there have been a number of such speeches. The first thing is that this is a Government measure, not a member\u2019s bill. The Government and other parties in this Parliament are bringing this bill before the Parliament. The bill concerning the alcohol age limit was a member\u2019s bill that was a conscience issue for Parliament, and let me remind the member who raised the issue that plenty of evidence out there, plenty of studies nationally and internationally, show the serious effect of alcohol on young people. Benzylpiperazine, as has been indicated, is a new substance in terms of its use by ordinary people. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIt was a cattle drench\u2014that is true\u2014and people probably did not have any idea that someone would sell cattle drench as a party pill. But they are now doing that\u2014and, guess what? The Government has commissioned studies and research on benzylpiperazine, and when that research comes back it may well be that it will show there is no problem whatever. However, it may well be that the research will show more problems than we even know about. If there are such problems, and if the recommendations of the expert advisory committees and researchers are that we should take further action, then we will. So that is the difference between alcohol and benzylpiperazine research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe evidence is in on alcohol, in my view, and in the view of a lot of other members in this Parliament; we are waiting for the other evidence. The Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs advised us to make a precautionary stand, and it suggested making that stand for the age of 18. It suggested the age; I did not. We have had the age of 18 for alcohol, and in the minds of many people in this Parliament\u2014and in the minds of many people outside it; in fact, in the minds of the majority of New Zealanders outside it\u2014that experiment of lowering the drinking age failed. So we are now addressing it, and we cannot be blamed for doing that. Seventy percent of New Zealanders actually agree with us, so if National members are saying that that is a bad thing, they can make my day twice. If they are saying they cannot make up their minds on this bill, they can make my day again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u002262853a07db4448c3b323dff7af6589a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262853a07db4448c3b323dff7af6589a9\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is timely that I enter the debate, particularly in terms of what the two previous speakers have spoken about. My colleague Barbara Stewart has put forward a Supplementary Order Paper that suggests that benzylpiperazine, party drugs, herbal drugs, and all other psychoactive substances should be included in the list of drugs prohibited from being available to the general community. Now, as the Hon Jim Anderton, the Minister in the chair, mentioned, there is no evidence about benzylpiperazine available at the moment, but I would suggest to this Committee that given the impact that the use of illicit drugs has had on our society, it would be better to err on the side of caution than to run the risk of waiting in the meantime for research to take place. We do not know how long that research will take, and in the meantime benzylpiperazine and other drugs will be available to our young people to use in the way they feel fit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First believes that all party drugs, including benzylpiperazine and other psychoactive substances, should be placed on the controlled drugs schedule. Although we are pleased some regulation is being placed around party pills\u2014in relation to their place of sale, age limits for use, and manufacturing practices\u2014we believe that that does not sufficiently address the problems and possible long-term health effects upon young users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI found it very interesting that during the course of the debate on this very important bill, we had a group of young people in the Chamber. They would have been listening intently to the respective views, and wondering whether some people in this Parliament really have their future as a concern. How can the effects of those drugs be considered low-risk? New Zealand First does not think they are, and we are waiting for the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs to carry out further research into that area. The research, as we all know, is desperately needed; no one is sure of long-term effects. We do not want to see a whole age group of young New Zealanders harmed from possible toxicity or brain damage from substances that currently are legally available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ESimon Williamson, Manager for Drug Investigations in the Customs Service, has said: \u201CThese pills are literally pouring into the country in huge quantities and New Zealand seems to be a unique market for them. In my view this is a clear case of the current regulations not keeping pace with the influx of synthetic designer substances that are available.\u201D Further on, he says that the people \u201Cpushing this stuff\u201D have invariably got a vested interest in its sale: \u201CThese people are making a lot of money by arguing that this is a safe alternative to illegal drugs, and all I can say to that is its\u201D\u2014I cannot use the word in this Chamber! \u201CThe pills are central nervous system stimulants, and there is evidence becoming available now, which suggests that they are toxic in content and damaging to the brain in high doses.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ESo although we are pleased to see some regulation of those substances, we would like to see stronger regulations surrounding their sale. It is particularly noticeable that manufacturing standards cannot be guaranteed under current regulations. One of the most urgent problems is the continued supply of benzylpiperazine, in excessive and sometimes dangerous doses, by irresponsible operators. As Mr Anderton well knows, that is particularly problematic in Christchurch. This is also something that should be addressed in this Committee stage. If we are to hold the manufacturers accountable under this law, we need to be sure that justice is seen to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI refer to a press release put out by my colleague Barbara Stewart, which quoted a medical toxicologist from the National Poisons Centre as saying that the adverse effects of these drugs are just beginning to show and that the pills should not be sold in New Zealand without a prescription. That reinforces our view that there should be no softening of drug laws for these new designer drugs. To that extent, I hope the Committee will support the Supplementary Order Paper put in by my colleague.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022644a0fabbe0e44519c050bbd269f13be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022644a0fabbe0e44519c050bbd269f13be\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to talk to Part 3 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) and to Supplementary Order Paper 298 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton, which was tabled when we were already considering the bill in the Health Committee. From the outset when it was first tabled\u2014and the select committee members will remember this\u2014I was extremely cautious about the party pills issue. I know that the Green member thinks that makes me fickle. However, I did not want to approach this matter with a sort of arrogant belief that I had a monopoly on the truth. I was very interested to hear the opinions of the various select committee members on this matter. The tension that we worked with was that on the one hand there was a huge call from the community\u2014and I remember particularly a letter from the Christchurch City Council\u2014asking us not to shy away from our responsibilities as legislators, and to move to put something in place, at least in the short term, to deal with the problem that people see on the streets. On the other hand the counterbalancing tension was that it appeared to many of us that putting party pills under the Misuse of Drugs Act was not necessarily the best option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe officials gave us some very good advice, and it was their advice that tempered my position. They said\u2014and I heard several different lines on this\u2014that 6 to 12 months\u2019 work would need to be done, and I have since read that possibly even 2 years\u2019 work would need to be done, to get a stand-alone restricted substances bill. We recommended in the commentary on the bill that that work be continued, and I would still like it to continue. I think that would ultimately be our preferred outcome. But it did not provide an immediate solution, and it would be cowardly of us, as members of Parliament, not to make some attempt in that regard. I want to thank the chair of the select committee, Steve Chadwick, for her guidance on this matter, and also the officials, because I really do think we have to be pragmatic in such situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI appreciate the conservative approach of the New Zealand First amendments. Starting from a position of prohibition is, I guess, an extremely safe position to take. However, we were not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222bde54a250b49cd94354baae8b772a5\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member is obviously in some discomfort. Perhaps I could seek the leave of the House for just a moment, for her to collect herself\u2014so that other members do not attempt to take a call or anything\u2014and resume her speech when she is ready.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527ca1e7bc9f4b498756f692bbda1cb4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising that. We will just bide time for a moment. There is no hurry, Judy Turner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab274da937ba450b84c2f961add42d7e\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: On the New Zealand First amendments, I do feel that the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs has given us some guidelines on the matter of party pills, and I think we need to move on those. However, I share the concerns of the New Zealand First members. I think we do want to see the role of the expert advisory committee include the opportunity for constant and active review of this decision. My concern with regard to party pills is the cocktail effect when they are combined with alcohol. Part of what we regulate may be that party pills are unable to be sold in a context where alcohol is being sold as well\u2014that may be a good solution. However, we did want to support this measure so that something is put in place now, to respond to the many requests that certainly came across my desk in that regard. So we are very happy, and I want to thank also the Hon Jim Anderton, because when I approached him with my concerns he had a very open door on the matter. I appreciate that, because I do feel that we need to proceed on all these matters with great caution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThis problem will not go away. As fast as we put regulations around products, new products are coming online. We do need to be extremely vigilant as we monitor those substances and their effect, and how they are consumed. I read a media release the other day on party pills, which stated that one of the concerns is the quantities in which party pills can be sold. There are recommended dosages on the product, but there is strong anecdotal evidence that young people ignore those recommendations and take far more than is recommended. We need to look, then, at the quantities the product is sold in. To wait for 2 years is absolutely not an option, and it is a very irresponsible position to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EHowever, let me just reiterate that United Future would challenge whoever is in Government after this election to make this matter a priority, to advance the work that does need to be done\u2014to take the 2 years if that is what it will take\u2014and to get up a restricted substances Act. I think there are some long-term problems. I accept\u2014and this will please the Green member\u2014that one of the things I found very difficult in working on this bill was that it was a bit of a dog\u2019s breakfast. I am not sure that Mr Tanczos and I would agree on how it should be improved. However, I found it quite difficult at times to get my head around some of the provisions, because they have been amended by adding bits on all over the place. I do think that an overall reworking could be done of our drugs legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed633bf3d054426e92b5768e7c010cc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed633bf3d054426e92b5768e7c010cc0\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E To be fair to the previous speaker, Judy Turner, perhaps I made some uncharitable remarks earlier, and it is a very complex and difficult bill. One of the things I think there is widespread agreement on is that there needs to be a major review of the misuse of drugs framework, in order to produce some kind of coherent, integrated drugs framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI rose, though, to address the amendments of Barbara Stewart, and I do so because the New Zealand First member raised the issue. Unlike Judy Turner, I do not think New Zealand First\u2019s amendment is a particularly conservative or safe approach to these substances. Ms Stewart is trying to add party pills, herbal drugs, and all other psychoactive substances to the schedule, as we have done with benzylpiperazine. I have to ask what that would mean. Herbal drugs\u2014does that mean that health food shops selling chamomile tea, which is a known relaxant, will now have to restrict it, make it R18, and have labelling and manufacture restrictions? Does that mean grocers selling lettuce, which we know contains an opiate, latex, will suddenly have to make it R18? Does it mean that nutmeg will be restricted to adults? Will we be raiding Little India franchises to bust them for selling curries to minors? It is just bizarre! Let us get real about what it would actually mean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EAdding all other psychoactive substances to the schedule would clearly include Coca-Cola, because it contains caffeine. The rumour I have heard\u2014I do not know whether it is true; I am a bit younger than many of the members here\u2014is that one of the contributing factors to the horrors of the Pinochet regime in Chile was the nationalisation of Coca-Cola. If that is true, imagine what it will do to us if we try to make its product R18! It will not just be a military takeover; it will be lining us all up against the wall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E When we start to use those kinds of definitions, which are so broad, we have to actually understand what they mean. Perhaps I am being a bit light with the member\u2019s amendment, but I think it does demonstrate that we have a pretty strange attitude when it comes to psychoactive substances, because they are all through our society. Drugs are all though our society, and I do not know whether there is a member in this Chamber who does not use drugs in one form or another. I would be highly surprised if that were the case. Very few people use no drugs, and I think that situation would probably apply only to strict Mormons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e01c19562357415d81bc7d4862ceb6ea\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Nicotine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1806a32a7c1412084369c61cf8f57ba\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: Nicotine\u2014exactly! Many members of this Parliament smoke. Drugs are rife in this society. Many members of this Parliament use some of the most dangerous drugs that are available in this country. Tobacco is one of the most addictive drugs and one of the most damaging to the body. Members of this Parliament smoke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a23c24208a47be8c39488885c8abdd\u0022\u003EBill Gudgeon\u003C/span\u003E: What about cannabis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52823d476884b1aa6d5ff89f1cf9552\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, that is quite incorrect. The member needs to look at the evidence on how many people die from smoking tobacco a year compared with how many people die from smoking cannabis a year, which is zero. Then the member might be informed enough to express an opinion on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Nandor Tanczos to clause 36 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1) after the words \u201Csection 34(1), the words \u201Cor section 4(1) of the principal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a63b5fb55a434a25a03c449c7d30ec65\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000213\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Nandor Tanczos to clause 58 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000214\u0022\u003Eto omit subclause (1), and substitute the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000215\u0022\u003E(1)\tAny District Court Judge or Justice or Community Magistrate, or any Registrar (not being a constable) may issue to a member of the police a warrant to enter a place, who, on an application in writing made on oath, is satisfied that\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000216\u0022\u003E(a)\tthere is a restricted substance in that place; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000217\u0022\u003E(b)\tan offence has been, is being, or will be committed under this Part in relation to that restricted substance in that place.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002234cf5cd07477445ca6c6e671ab710bc9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000218\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Nandor Tanczos to clause 58 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000219\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (c) from subclause (3), and substitute the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000220\u0022\u003E(c)\tseize any restricted substance, document or record (of any kind), or other article relating to a restricted substance (for example, any advertising or labelling material) and retain for not longer than 72 hours unless an information is laid in respect of a relevant serious offence.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022704da6328a164ba383b0282db368e0ea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000221\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 377 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to clause 32 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000222\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022be625001a0cd450f8f9dbb910c749159\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b4e54d06efc493d968fa2230fed2538\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000224\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Barbara Stewart to schedule 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000225\u0022\u003Eto add to New Part 3, the following items:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000226\u0022\u003EBenzylpiperazine (BZP)\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000227\u0022\u003EParty Drugs\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000228\u0022\u003EHerbal Drugs\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000229\u0022\u003EAll other psychoactive substances.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002221db2eb36b3846e49845b2c0d4fe02cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 9; Green Party 7; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to, and schedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000230\u0022\u003ESchedules 2 and 3 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000231\u0022\u003ESchedule 4\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220bdf12b202914dd9a04f1bd96c287a63\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022287d9315d6124e31999b1c653c4bbc8c\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb39fed5d8854c8497bb751c03538b6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb39fed5d8854c8497bb751c03538b6d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the preliminary clauses of this very important Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). The National Party is indeed supporting these very important parts of the bill because, as introduced, they amend two main areas of the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 1978. These deal with presumption of supply matters to be amended by Order in Council, subject to the affirmative resolution procedure; they also amend the presumption of supply quantity for methamphetamine, and add a Ministry of Justice official as a member of the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. The National Party certainly believes that all those things are very important in terms of ensuring that the affirmative resolution procedure can be used in the most optimal way possible, given that it is a very special procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI did not get an opportunity when we were discussing Part 1 to talk about the Needle and Syringe Exchange Programme. One of the aspects of Part 1 was, indeed, the reversal of proof that would be allowed for individuals who were on the programme so that they would not be subject to having to provide proof in the first instance that the needles were not obtained legally. Instead, the proof is on the part of the police to do this. I think that is a very useful measure because undoubtedly the Needle and Syringe Exchange Programme in New Zealand has essentially been a very useful process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI was approached by the Drug Foundation to support an amendment that might completely remove any form of punishment for needle exchange users, whether they had obtained those needles through the programme or through illicit means. I understand that the international evidence has been that where there has been no form of recrimination for those needle users, it has meant that they have been able to go about the needle exchange process much more freely than is the case at present. Because, as I understand that, even with the reversal of proof, it still will mean their going to court and going through the process that they find sometimes pretty arduous and pretty difficult, when they are actually part of the needle exchange process, and are taking at least the responsible action to make sure that the needles that they use are clean and are unlikely to be associated with HIV, hepatitis, and all the infectious diseases that we are very concerned about for those substantial number of people who do, indeed, use needles in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that the final report of the Needle and Syringe Exchange Programme recommended that the New Zealand Government and the community recognise the vital role of the exchange programme in preventing HIV infections, and I absolutely concur with that. It also said that the New Zealand Parliament should approve the proposed amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act that would remove the offensive possession of needles and syringes legally obtained through the exchange programme, and indeed, National supports that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt went on to say in its 16th recommendation that the basic training of the New Zealand Police should include a short session on New Zealand\u2019s harm minimisation and the Needle and Syringe Exchange Programme, and that that exchange programme should liaise with the police to achieve this goal. I think that is very important, and the National Party supports it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022366b0ab03a5840fb825838634eb3ff45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022366b0ab03a5840fb825838634eb3ff45\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to respond to some of the things that the Minister in the chair, Jim Anderton, said previously. He talked about these drugs having been around for 10 years. Well, no; the drug problem has been around for a long time, but he was wrong about the time that Benzylpiperazine and P have been around. What happens is every year people think of something new. Benzylpiperazine has not been around for 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EHe also said that National had done nothing. Well, how hypocritical is that? This whole piece of legislation that this Minister is using was devised by Wyatt Creech; the Minister seems to forget that. The expeditious scheduling that has set up the affirmative resolution process was actually developed by the National Government because we had huge concerns about Ecstasy and Fantasy. Of course, the use of P methamphetamine is pretty new. It has appeared in the last 5 or 6 years, and it has been expeditiously scheduled, as well. So the Minister is incorrect in his assertions that National had done nothing. We had done a huge amount, and he has used that process, as we did, to try to ensure safety for our young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EBut the other thing that was hypocritical about this Minister saying he does not understand National\u2019s position is he has actually said he will look at a stand-alone Act for Part 3 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3), that he will look at a separate Act for restricted substances. That is exactly what National was asking for\u2014that there should be a separate Act of Parliament. There was a great deal of debate at the Health Committee about his Supplementary Order Paper 298. That debate was around how on earth we would actually fit it into this bill, whether it would achieve the aim that it was set up to do, and whether expeditious scheduling should be allowed to be used in this particular way. There was debate week after week. In fact, the chair of the Health Committee, Steve Chadwick was nearly tearing her hair out at some points. I remember her saying she had just had enough of our going round and round in circles on the issues. The Minister stood up and said: \u201CThere\u2019s no problem.\u201D, and I am sure he has good intentions, but that is not what National members have been debating; we have been debating the process. The Minister agrees that there is a problem. He knows that, and that is why he gave us an undertaking to look at setting up a stand-alone Act for this particular part of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ENational supports the original intention of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). That intention was to make the precursor substances for making P methamphetamine\u2014that is, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine\u2014illegal. We support that. We support the change of onus of proof for needles, to try to improve the Needle and Syringe Exchange Programme. We support having regulations and some controls over party drugs; we have no problem with that, at all. It is just the process that was used that we have a problem with. The Minister himself agreed with us. He knows there were problems. He knows that this part was added very rapidly, and the select committee had a lot of trouble trying to decide what to do with his Supplementary Order Paper. The debate went round and round the table week after week. I am sure that United Future members can confirm that, because they had real concerns about it, as well; it was not just ACT and the National Party. We do need to ensure that legislation is properly drafted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EEven today, through the Committee process, National members have been making amendments to this bill. Dealing with controlled drugs is something that needs to go through the parliamentary process quickly. There are many ways for it to come through this House, and, of course, the use of urgency is one of those ways. We have always supported the select committee process because it allows the public to have a say\u2014the people at the coalface dealing with these issues; the police, customs officers, and parents\u2014on these issues so that we can try to get it right, and try to make sure that the legislation and the regulations that follow actually deliver what we want. I have seen, time and time again in this Parliament\u2014I think the Charities Bill would probably be the best example in recent times\u2014officials not hitting the target when they are deciding on regulations and developing law. It is not that everyone does not have good intentions; it is that people are actually not in touch with those on the ground and the real issues, and they miss the target.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ENational members certainly support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00227b88212d7ade436f94d9523237aa6c77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b88212d7ade436f94d9523237aa6c77\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I shall talk to both clauses 1 and 2, and I shall deal with clause 2 first. Notwithstanding the technicalities that may prevent my suggestion, I believe that this legislation should come into force on the day the royal assent is given, rather than on the day after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EBut having said that, I say New Zealand First considers this to be a very important bill. It is important that the title is clearly understood by everyone. Notwithstanding that some legislation in the past has included clauses that lacked definition, and of course I refer to clauses regarding the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, New Zealand First is glad to see that those principles are not included in this bill. It just goes to show that we really do not need those principles to be alluded to. It is more difficult to realise from the title that this important legislation relates to the regulation of benzylpiperazine and other party drugs. The manufacturers of those pills need to be able to identify easily and to understand these regulations. We understand that separate legislation for restricted substances is at least 18 months away. We will follow that development with some interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EIt is pleasing to note that groups like the Social Tonics Association of New Zealand are already taking measures to put into place many of the community-focused measures that are covered in this bill. This legislation will clarify that benzylpiperazine is not a dietary supplement or a food. Since it is included as a restricted substance, it is therefore, by definition, not a food or dietary supplement. That group is therefore taking voluntary steps, in anticipation of further regulation under the bill once it is passed\u2014and I am talking about the Social Tonics Association of New Zealand. The association is changing its labels, so that products are no longer marketed as dietary supplements. It is also recommending three issues: firstly, limiting the amount of benzylpiperazine contained in each pill to 200 milligrams, with a limit of 600 milligrams per packet, secondly, including more explicit warnings on labels that benzylpiperazine is contained in products and they are not to be sold to under 18-year-olds, and, thirdly, developing terms of trade to prevent retailers from selling to persons under 18. It is essential that benzylpiperazine products are manufactured and sold safely. The association remains committed to regulations that will exclude irresponsible and unsafe operators from the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis bill is an example of an evidence-based approach to policy development and of a strong commitment to harm minimisation. New Zealand First, again, repeats its support for the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00221ab6a8276a9140d9aaedff34ff7d7495\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ab6a8276a9140d9aaedff34ff7d7495\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I was not intending to speak on this part, but I did rise to speak because Dr Paul Hutchison raised a very important issue around needle exchange. I did actually move an amendment to remove the possession of needles as an offence. Members may have missed it, because it is in a miscellaneous provisions clause, and, again, that comes back to the problem of the bill and the Act as a whole. They are quite difficult things to find one\u2019s way around in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThere is a concern that even by reversing the onus of proof\u2014as the bill does\u2014people are hindered from using clean needles. The Health Committee heard very strong evidence that police do use the existing law. Generally, police do not charge people for possession of needles, but they do use it to bully people and extract information. That does hinder intravenous drug users from using clean needles, and that is the problem. Perhaps it is not such a big problem with current intravenous drug users, because the current intravenous drug using community is well aware of the needle exchange programme, how it works, and its safeguards. But what is of increasing concern is new intravenous drug users. There is growing anecdotal evidence that some P users are starting to move to intravenous use. The evidence is not very clear, it is not very substantial, but certainly the anecdotal evidence that is coming off the streets is that as methamphetamine gets more scarce and more expensive, some people are starting to move to intravenous drug use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EObviously, that is extremely worrying in a number of ways, and it should concern us all. But I certainly think we would all share the view that if people are starting to move towards intravenous drug use, there should be no hindrance to their getting clean needles. Of course, there is a simple cost equation as well. There are enormous cost savings to be made in health care. At present there is a 6 percent sharing rate of needles, and if that was reduced, or eliminated, that would produce huge savings for New Zealand health care. An independent valuation found that every dollar spent on New Zealand\u2019s needle exchange programme currently saved an estimated $3.35 in health-care costs. So there is an enormous economic, as well as social, moral, and ethical, argument for doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe committee did address this issue, but it was persuaded by the police not to remove it as an offence entirely. The arguments of the police were actually quite spurious. They said that they needed it for drug control and to stop an illegal market in needles. Let us be clear: there is no black market for needles and syringes in New Zealand\u2014that is, all needles and syringes used for drug injection are obtained from an authorised supplier. Even if we did remove possession of needles as an offence, it would not take away the offence of unauthorised selling. One still has to be an authorised seller, so people could still be prosecuted if they were selling needles and they were not authorised to do so. So the law stays in place to allow us to police that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIn any case, let us be real about it: there are no incentives for an illegal market in needles. The concern was raised that there might be a drug dealer who was selling needles as well. First, there is no incentive for people to buy needles from a dealer, because they can get them free from the needle exchange simply by swapping their old ones. So there is no financial incentive; there is a disincentive to get needles from a dealer. Secondly, perhaps dealers could give them away, but why would they do that? Why would they incur an extra cost on themselves when there is no benefit in doing that? People would just go to the needle exchange to get one. In any case, if dealers were giving away clean needles, surely that would be a good thing. I would have thought so. It would be better than allowing their customers to share needles and, therefore, put themselves at risk of contracting HIV, hepatitis, or any of the other blood-borne diseases. The third possibility was that drug dealers would give away dirty needles. That just does not make sense. They would lose their customer base pretty quickly if they did that. Customers would know pretty quickly that that was going on and they would not use them. So it just does not make sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe argument is just illogical, and it is sad that the Health Committee was persuaded by it, because I do not think it holds any water. That is pretty clear from international evaluations, and we can look at the report of the Australian National Drug Law Enforcement Research Fund titled: The role of police in preventing and minimising illicit drug use and its harm, which shows clearly the benefits of needle exchanges and removing the possession of needles as an offence. As I said, there are enormous savings in health costs, mortality rates, morbidity rates, and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022ece1429697cb4bcc8f87bb600cf2b962\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ece1429697cb4bcc8f87bb600cf2b962\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I shall take a brief call on the first two clauses of this Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EFirst, I shall make a quick reference to the needle exchange business. The police shared their concern that if we removed the full ability for needles to be used evidentially, that could encourage needle use over other methods of consumption\u2014that needle use would then become a preferred method, because of the legal sanction around it. That was a real concern that some of us shared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the title of the bill. What comes to mind is what has been mentioned many times in the Chamber this morning, and that is that many of us\u2014and we included it in the commentary on this bill\u2014want to see ongoing work done to set up a restricted substances Act for legal psychoactive substances. I want to take a minute to challenge every party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI shall start with National and Labour, the two parties that are going into this election campaign with the belief that they can viably be the Government after the election. My challenge to them is whether they are prepared to promise us today, in the Chamber, that they will continue the work, which I understand could take up to 2 years. Will those parties give us a guarantee that, if they become the Government, they will treat that work as a priority, so that a restricted substances Act is established? It requires the will of the Government, and I believe that those parties should make that commitment today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EBut, beyond that, I ask this question of the other parties, whose goal is to be a support party after the election, and who seek to wield some power in terms of the conditions they put down to the party they are supporting: will they give the same undertaking that, after the election, they will set as a priority, with whichever party they are working with\u2014if they get that opportunity\u2014the advancing of this much-needed work, so that a restricted substances Act is put in place? I ask that question of New Zealand First, the Greens, and ACT. Will they make a commitment and guarantee us today that they would see that as a priority, and that it would be part of any agreement they made if they got the chance to make an agreement? I think every party needs to put itself on the line in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 377 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to, and clause 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202aad7209f7f4df6ab3bc146eb81d623\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022681ead4921bc441c8c753f1d0f77ec48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022681ead4921bc441c8c753f1d0f77ec48\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time. This bill updates our drug laws and makes them more responsive to licit - drug use trends in New Zealand. I know that all parties in Parliament understand the importance of such a measure. In particular, the bill will permit presumption of supply matters to be amended by Order in Council at the same time as a change in classification, subject to the normal affirmative resolution procedure by Parliament, which, of course, means that Parliament still gets to decide the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill sets the presumption of supply amount for methamphetamine at 5 grams rather than the present default amount of 56 grams. It removes the ability for the classification level of a controlled drug to be decreased or a classification to be removed by Order in Council and the affirmative resolution procedure. That change to the select committee report was sought by the United Future party. The bill adds a Ministry of Justice official to the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. It creates new offences relating to the importing and exporting of precursor substances, which are ingredients like ephedrine and pseudoephedrine that are used in the manufacture of methamphetamine. It creates new powers of search and seizure without warrant for ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and it allows controlled deliveries of precursor substances, which will deal to some of our drug dealers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill retains the offence of possessing a needle or a syringe, but it puts the defence of where the needle or syringe has been obtained lawfully, into the principal Act. Currently, this defence is hidden away in regulations, where few lawyers with not much experience can find it. It moves the onus of proof from the defendant to the prosecution, as recommended by public health experts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill adds a new restricted substance as part of the legislation, and regulates benzylpiperazine, the main ingredient found in party pills, as the first restricted substance in New Zealand under the terms of the amended legislation, and it almost certainly will not be the last. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EToday I would again like to thank all members of the Health Committee for their valuable work on this bill. I know there have been complex matters to deal with. Committee members had to tackle the public health and legal issues within a relatively tight time frame, but it is a better time frame than the years it sometimes took previously to get these matters before the House. I know that some members would have liked a great deal more time to consider a number of issues arising from the bill, but against that I know that the majority of us here understand the need to move as quickly and practically as possible to respond to changing trends in the drug abuse scene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003ESince I became the Associate Minister of Health and became responsible for the national drug policy, 3 years ago, the Labour-Progressive Government has put in place a sophisticated strategy to try to turn the tide against the harm caused by drugs in our country. This strategy includes getting very tough on the pedlars of very dangerous drugs, like the manufacturers and importers of methamphetamine and its precursors. Our strategy includes increasing the amount of public investment on reducing the demand for drugs through community-based education and action programmes. It also includes investing more in treatment services, because there will need to be more if we are to realistically expect significant numbers of former drug users to get back on their feet and live a drug-free lifestyle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EOur strategy includes investment in empirical research into the medical health and social and economic effects that drug abuse is having on individuals, on their families, and on communities in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003ETo effectively turn the tide against the abuse of alcohol and drugs, we need to work on all fronts at the same time. I have to say that I think some of the squabbling about whether we should have more stick and less carrot, or more carrot and less stick, is not very productive. Effectively reducing the harm that drug abuse is causing is not an either/or matter. It is about central government, communities, local government, and families working together on all fronts as appropriate to reduce harm from drug abuse. This bill before the House fits with that multifaceted and balanced strategy. I recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022312950abf70241d0845fc43ec5dffc6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022312950abf70241d0845fc43ec5dffc6d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party certainly does support the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) as introduced, because it deals with the very concerning area of controlled drugs and the huge need in New Zealand to use every possible method to stop their very worrisome proliferation. I want to remind the House of how that proliferation has occurred. We learn from the Institute of Environmental Science and Research that New Zealand\u2019s first methamphetamine or P clandestine laboratory was discovered in 1996. Since then the number of laboratories has dramatically increased, particularly in the last few years. Police found nine laboratories in 2000. In 2001 they found 41, in 2002, 147, and in 2003, 146 of them were closed. I think that gives us an idea of how dramatically the problem has increased in New Zealand for about 10 years, but has particularly escalated over the last 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E I wanted to point that out, because in the 1997-98 era the Rt Hon Wyatt Creech thought that it was important\u2014at that early stage, before the escalation had really occurred\u2014to bring in the affirmative resolution process, in order to have a mechanism available to combat the proliferation that he, quite rightly, saw would occur. The Labour Government sat around for several years, before finally bringing in its amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act, in about 2001-02. It certainly took quite some time to do that. So although Jim Anderton said that something should have been done in the 1990s, the evidence is that as recently as 2000 only nine clandestine P laboratories had been closed by the police in New Zealand. But that number has escalated logarithmically over the last few years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EUndoubtedly, the reason we are supporting this bill is the inclusion of the main provisions in Parts 1 and 2: the presumption of supply matters to be amended by Order in Council, the presumption of supply quantity for methamphetamine, the adding of a Ministry of Justice official to the membership of the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, the creation of new offences of importing and exporting precursor substances, the creation of powers of search and seizure without warrant for ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and the measure allowing for the controlled delivery of precursor substances. The National Party is hugely aware of the illicit use of drugs and of their importation by highly sophisticated gangs, which are ready to change their methods and formulae in relation to those very dangerous controlled drugs. If a drug appears on the schedules, the gangs will come up with another one, and therefore it is necessary to use every method we can possibly find to combat the sophisticated nature of illicit drug manufacture and the lengths to which New Zealand and international gangs go in order to bring drugs into this country. That is a hugely serious and worrying concern for us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut it is also hugely concerning that the Hon Jim Anderton brought in the amendment that has now become Part 3 of this bill, which also covers the affirmative resolution procedure that the Regulations Review Committee has pointed out must be used wisely by the New Zealand Parliament. I reiterate what that committee stated about it: \u201CThe amendment of primary legislation by an Order in Council is commonly referred to as the \u2018Henry VIII\u2019 clause and is regarded as undesirable, because it allows the executive the power to override Parliament. Such powers should be granted by Parliament rarely and with strict controls.\u201D I also point out what the committee further stated: \u201CIn our view, the classification of restricted substances is a matter of significant policy that should be dealt with by primary legislation.\u201D It is for that reason that the National Party is not supporting Part 3 as brought in, somewhat belatedly, by the Hon Jim Anderton. The proper consideration it deserves has not been given to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that the National Party recognises the problem of party pills and the use of some substances, such as \u201CBZP\u201D, or benzylpiperazine, as being one of great concern. But we have made a commitment to bring in well-thought-out, well-considered legislation within the first 12 months of the new Government that will very likely come into office within the next few months ahead. I think it is also absolutely important to reiterate that the affirmative resolution process should be used with great care, as the Regulations Review Committee has recommended. That recommendation has been ignored by the Labour Party, and by Jim Anderton and his so-called coalition party, the Progressive Party. I think that is very, very serious. I also think it is important to point out what the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs concluded about benzylpiperazine. It stated that there was insufficient information available on which to base a recommendation to classify those substances in the schedules of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI again absolutely emphasise the fact that the New Zealand National Party does regard those substances as being a very serious issue. Many of us have children and teenagers who talk continually about the proliferation of party pills, herbal pills, and related substances, and there is no doubt that those substances are becoming logarithmically more available. It is because of the highly explicit nature of how they are being advertised now, and of how they appear to be being used by many young people in New Zealand, that Jim Anderton has woken up suddenly and said that we must do something about it\u2014and what is being done about it has been brought into Parliament very much against the wise advice of the Regulations Review Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is also important to point out that the expert advisory committee did express concern about the increased supply of party pills through a whole variety of mechanisms\u2014over the Internet, through countercultural retailers, and, more recently, through liquor outlets, service stations, and dairies. We want to make sure that well-considered legislation is brought to Parliament regarding that. Time and time again we see the Labour Government bring in hurried legislation, under urgency, just like today, that will undoubtedly have to be re-amended at a later time. That is why we believe it is so important to have well-considered legislation. I was deeply concerned to hear the Hon Jim Anderton make light of the affirmative resolution procedure and say it is not a serious procedure. It is a very serious procedure. Indeed, it goes to the heart of our democracy, and it is a great worry when we have the Labour Party and the coalition party, the Progressive Party, making light of that procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe National Party does support the bill, but is very concerned about Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4561ada3f8b43929b1a29096c5eafe4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4561ada3f8b43929b1a29096c5eafe4\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E That was a rather confused speech made by the National Party spokesperson on health. Partly, it shows that there have been a lot of changes to the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI acknowledge at the beginning of my third reading speech the valuable contribution made by Lynda Scott. I know that this bill will probably be the last bill she is involved in. Lynda Scott was there when Wyatt Creech brought in his first amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act, and she well understood about the Order in Council and the expeditious scheduling. I think it has been a confused issue ever since. Today\u2019s debate by Opposition members has shown me how confused those members are about the value of the Order in Council mechanism. Wyatt Creech brought it in, very sensibly. We use it very moderately, understanding the need for flexibility and the ability to expeditiously schedule. Yet National has argued against the use of the Order in Council mechanism. It is quite bizarre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis bill was a difficult one. It was very, very complex, actually, because of the statutory framework we are working with, with legislation on controlled drugs, then in came the issue of licit drugs with Supplementary Order Paper 298, which was referred to us in November. It was not a knee-jerk reaction. It was referred to us in November as a result of the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, not as a result of the Associate Minister of Health panicking and looking for answers out there, to please the electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe Misuse of Drugs Act and subsequent amendments are rather out of date and do require a major overhaul. We do need to look at how we regulate both controlled and licit drugs. I believe that the Order in Council process showed it is still a robust mechanism and very useful in terms of expeditious scheduling. It does involve the House, it does involve Cabinet, and it does involve the select committee. I find it a rigorous process. It is not lightly used, at all. It was sad to see the Opposition, therefore, voting against Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThere is a challenge to us about the mix of drugs, and we took it very seriously. I believe that members of the Health Committee, those who understood the original Misuse of Drugs Act, came up with a very sensible solution in terms of where we are in the electoral cycle. They knew that there was no way that our concerns about benzylpiperazine and where it stood in our public health framework would be addressed at this time in Parliament, and it was not good enough to say we would develop our own, stand-alone bill. I do not think that is a sensible solution, because it means yet another drug bill without our looking at the whole drug framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EA lot of preparatory work was done. When we look at the way tobacco regulation and tobacco control were brought in, in 2003, we see that we have carried over those regulatory provisions into this bill. Members do not seem to have read this bill very closely at all. We have set up a second schedule of criteria that the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs has to look at and take into account, before the Order in Council process is put in motion. We have put in some very sensible issues about the practicalities of enforcement requirements, and having the right incentives in place so that we do not push people into using another illicit drug that has come on to the market. We looked at sale and supply issues. Katherine Rich pointed out the very interesting issue that in this bill we are talking about restricting sale to 18-year-olds, and not promoting these social herbal highs to under-18-year-olds, yet a contradictory piece of legislation about the drinking age has been introduced. This bill allows a voluntary code, restrictions on the location of where sales can be made, and provisions for advertising, labelling, and co-packaging, as well as manufacturing standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI think we have done very, very well with this bill, given the complexity of the issues and the timing of the electoral cycle. I am proud to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u002238a694f6ae3940fa896bdc5c3361e1af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238a694f6ae3940fa896bdc5c3361e1af\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak to the third reading of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). I will say straight off that New Zealand First supports this bill, which might surprise some people on the Government benches. However, I have been asked, on behalf of my caucus, to extend our appreciation to the Health Committee, and in particular to the officials for the time they spent with the committee ensuring that it was totally informed about the many aspects of this legislation, and about the inclusion of legal and illegal substances in the same legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First was disappointed that the Supplementary Order Paper submitted by my colleague Barbara Stewart was not supported. However, New Zealand First did recommend that these groups of substances be treated in the same way as all other controlled drugs and included on the appropriate schedule. I note that during the earlier debate in the Committee stage the Green Party member made light of our suggestion, particularly in terms of products like Coca-Cola. I say to the Green member, and indeed to other members of this House, that if warnings were applied to the sale of products like Coca-Cola, then the general public would be aware of the dangers of the particular drugs contained in them. We believe that harm minimisation as a strategy does not address the issues and needs of those most at risk from abuse of these substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ESo while we support the Supplementary Order Paper put in by the honourable member, Jim Anderton, we view it as a first step only. New Zealand First believes that there should be no softening of drug laws for these new designer drugs. We believe that these party pills should be classified as controlled drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWe would have liked to see these substances guaranteed as harmless. We believe that until this occurs they should not be legally available for sale. We look forward to the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs completing further research into the potential harms of these psychoactive substances. The manufacturers of these products claim that they are safe and that they are keeping people away from the more dangerous amphetamines. In fact, we believe that by creating a culture in our young people that it is acceptable, and even desirable, to take some pills to get high, we are increasing the number of our young people who would dare to try harder drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe real answer to substance abuse is education against the pill-popping habit that party pills have so dramatically created. We are told that these products are safe if they are taken according to the instructions\u2014that is, not to take them with alcohol, and to follow the recommended dosage. At best, this argument is flawed because a large number of people do not comply with these instructions. Even with prescription medicines, where the patient receives verbal instructions from the prescribing doctor, and then from the pharmacist, compliance is not always guaranteed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAdd this to the fact that these products are designed and promoted for use at parties, where alcohol is mandatory, and where there is pressure to take extra doses, and it takes a very strong-willed young person to resist. Compliance under these circumstances would be well below the pharmaceutical average. Because of that, we may see many more people hospitalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI was pleased to read in a recent letter from the Social Tonics Association that it is recommending limiting the amount of benzylpiperazine contained in each pill. That appears to be a sensible measure. We are aware that a small number of operators have been basically exploiting the unregulated market and producing low-quality products with variable amounts of benzylpiperazine, without warnings or labels. The level of benzylpiperazine can be two to three times higher than the dosages outlined as potentially dangerous by the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWe are also very pleased with the new offences created by this bill. This bill has needed the attention of the House, as both the police and customs have needed the support of the law in their fight against the misuse of drugs, and this bill provides for that. New offences are created that will close the loopholes that currently exist. Any legislation that helps with the early apprehension of those involved in the misuse of drugs must be good for our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EOne of the other reasons why my caucus colleagues and I support this bill is that we are looking to the future, and in particular to the next generation of members of our families. We would like to think that we have been responsible for putting in place legislation that will help to protect the forthcoming generations from the dangers that the misuse of illicit drugs will cause to our young people. In conclusion, New Zealand First supports the passing of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f29e3c5fc38948418b561f4b1573df7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f29e3c5fc38948418b561f4b1573df7c\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak to the third reading of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). We will be opposing this bill for a number of reasons, which I will come to. This legislation is very untidy. ACT would have liked to be in the position of supporting this bill as it stood in the first instance, with just Parts 1 and 2. We agree that there is room for great improvement with the control of possession and supply of dangerous drugs. The bill\u2019s creation of new offences of importing and exporting precursor substances, creating powers of search and seizure, without warrant, for ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and allowing controlled deliveries of precursor substances should in fact occur, and we agree with that. But we object strongly to Part 3, which was added at the select committee stage by Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIt is was interesting to hear some of the comments from the chair of the Health Committee, Steve Chadwick, when she spoke. She said there was confusion on the Opposition side of the House, particularly on the use of the Order in Council and the affirmative resolution process. There is no confusion. We have talked about that long and hard. We had very strong submissions from the Regulations Review Committee, which, unfortunately, have by and large been ignored in the final instance. ACT is very unhappy about that. We thought the advice we received was very good, and we were most unhappy that the advice was not followed through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAs I say, we would have liked to support the bill. We did support Parts 1 and 2 through the whole process, both at the select committee level and also here in the Committee stage. But we cannot support the overall bill, because of the untidiness of the legislation and the time pressure that was put on for it to be passed. Here we are, yet again, in another period of urgency rushing through legislation that would have been much better, much tidier, and much more effective in the final outcome had that time pressure not been put on the entire process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAs I say, we would have liked to be in a position to support the bill but, in the final instance, it promotes draconian powers in relation to substances that may well be little more insidious or addictive than alcohol, nicotine, or many other harmful but not necessarily catastrophic substances. That should give us pause for thought. I refer to Part 3, which was added at the select committee stage. To be fair to Mr Anderson, it was very good that the Supplementary Order Paper came to the select committee in plenty of time so that the full parliamentary process could be gone through and submissions could be made. But I think the fact that it is tacked on to a very rigorous bill when it should have been a stand-alone bill is a retrograde step. I do hope that as time progresses, that will in fact happen so that the dangerous substances that, as everybody acknowledges, cause great harm to society and, particularly, to our young people can be dealt with properly, and the provisions in Part 3 can be dealt with in a proper and efficient manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWhen the Supplementary Order Paper first came to the select committee, it had a blank schedule. There is certainly no historical provision for that to happen, and for the committee members to have a blank schedule in front of them with no idea, except from guesswork, as to what exactly might go on it was unacceptable. To allay the committee\u2019s fears, the benzylpiperazine substances were put on that schedule, and it did seem as if that was just a ploy to allay the fears of many select committee members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAs I say, the legislation was very untidy. This was acknowledged, and has been acknowledged further more informally by many members of the select committee. None of us were really happy with that process, and many of us felt that the officials were put under extreme time constraints in coming forward with legislation that would meet the time requirements, as opposed to the proper process being gone through, and good legislation that is rigorous and that can easily be upheld by the courts where the direction is to be given. That should have been allowed to happen, and did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EPerhaps our biggest fears were those I referred to with regard to the Regulations Review Committee. The Regulations Review Committee has always given us very rigorous and very good advice, but, by and large, on this occasion this advice has been ignored. That committee said to us that it was unhappy about the use of the affirmative resolution process, and it warned that that process should not proliferate\u2014something that, at the time, all the Health Committee members agreed with. It considered that there should be compelling reasons for applying the affirmative resolution process when primary legislation is being amended in respect of serious offences. The Regulations Review Committee also noted that the affirmative resolution process is justifiable in limited and exceptional circumstances, including where there is a need for expeditious change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI note that I wrote a letter to the Health Committee in September 2002 outlining problems with, particularly, the sale and purchase of benzylpiperazine products by many young people, some as young as 12, 13, or 14, at places like Star Marts. At that time, the select committee did not seem to be the least bit worried about those products, and my letter was passed on to the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. I felt at the time that that was really just to pacify me. Suddenly now there is an Order in Council process in place. The nature of this matter has hardly, I would say, been expeditious. That is just one example of what can happen when the Order in Council and the affirmative action process is put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe Regulations Review Committee also noted that although the affirmative resolution procedure allows a truncated legislative process, it considers that there are considerable drawbacks. In particular, the procedure allows significant matters of policy and principle to be dealt with in delegated legislation rather than in primary legislation. We have heard other parties raise this issue here today. It allows a limited time for select committee scrutiny\u2014not the great time as in the normal process, as Steve Chadwick indicated\u2014which may be insufficient for public consultation or for substantial consideration of the policy rationale. In short, it should be used in extreme or very limited circumstances only. The legislation now allows for this process to be undergone in many and varied circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIn particular, I mention new section 4(1AA), inserted by clause 5(2). ACT finds it bizarre that people\u2019s liberties will be able to removed by ministerial decree\u2014the Order in Council process\u2014while all the machinery of Parliament will be needed to reduce regulation. There are no historical precedents for this action at all, and to allow the extra regulation of substances by Order in Council but to have the downgrading, if you like, of those same substances or any other substances on a schedule allowed to happen only by the full machinations of the parliamentary process is really quite bizarre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EQuite how we reached that point is very questionable. We should either have the same process, both ways, or the full parliamentary process, both ways. Anybody who has any knowledge of the legislative process looking from beyond our own battlegrounds here today would find this absolutely extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand opposes this legislation because of many process matters. As I say, we would have liked to support the bill for the benefit that Parts 1 and 2 will bring to the control and supply of serious methamphetamine-type medications that have brought great problems to our society\u2014we all acknowledge that. We think that Part 3 should have been stand-alone legislation, and we are very loath to see substances that have yet to be proven to be very harmful lumped in with very dangerous drugs. Most important, we worry about the proliferating use of the affirmative action process through Order in Council. For those reasons, we oppose this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u002273707759ed5b487da91cea7ee15ef1e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273707759ed5b487da91cea7ee15ef1e8\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to support the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) in its third reading debate on behalf of the Green Party, because in principle it does go in the direction the Green Party says that drug policy should go. At the same time, I acknowledge that it has been laced with a number of toxic adulterants, partly at the hands of the \u201CUFO Party\u201D, but the honourable Minister has to share some responsibility for the severe problems that remain in the bill. Before I go on to the substance of the bill, I would like to quickly address Mr Paraone\u2019s comment about Coca-Cola. I agree that the labelling of Coca-Cola and some sensible restrictions on its use would be beneficial, but I am not sure that making it R18 would be particularly useful. However, I thank him for those comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe support the bill for a number of reasons. The first one is that it allows control of a range of substances that are currently unregulated. That can include any mixture, preparation, or article manufactured for the primary purpose of inducing a psychoactive effect. Of course, the bill has been introduced with benzylpiperazine specifically in that category, but it is open to other substances to be included. The bill addresses the situation of a growing industry that is currently unregulated, around which there are growing concerns, and that needs some regulations to be put in place. As the Hon Jim Anderton said, there is no evidence that benzylpiperazine causes a great deal of problems, but it is sensible to take a precautionary approach and put in place some sensible restrictions, just to dampen down its use a bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe bill adds a new schedule to the Misuse of Drugs Act. That was originally a Greens\u2019 suggestion, and we are very pleased that it has been taken up. It has to be an amendment by way of inserting a new schedule in the Act, because otherwise we would need new legislation every time a new substance came to our attention. We already know for a fact that piperazines that are not benzylpiperazines\u2014there are other forms of piperazines\u2014are being sold in shops right now. Those piperazines are not included in this bill currently. We also know that other substances that are not even in the piperazine range of drugs are being sold, manufactured, and researched now. So we clearly need something that we can put new substances into fairly simply, and that is what this bill provides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWhat does the bill do, in terms of restrictions? It puts in place things like age limits, restrictions on advertising, an assurance that there are quality manufacturing standards, and an assurance that there is adequate labelling, so that people can make properly informed choices. That is all absolutely sensible. The industry, which, by and large, has been responsible in the way it has dealt with the sale and manufacture of its products, has been calling for enforceable powers in that regard. There are cowboy operators, particularly in Christchurch, who have no regard for the voluntary code of the industry and who need to be brought into line. Gangsters are getting involved. That is the problem, and it gives us a taste of where the issue would go if we chose to prohibit the industry, rather than to restrict it by some sensible regulation. We would see an increase in gangsterism in the industry, and we want to avoid that. The Greens remain concerned about the unrestricted enforcement powers. There is no need for a search warrant, and there is no time limit, in terms of giving stuff back. Businesses could easily be put out of business on the whim of a health officer or police officer, and we think that that is a serious issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe Greens support the bill because it introduces some changes to the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, in particular by adding a Ministry of Justice representative. That is a much-needed change. That person can give advice on the justice implications of the classification of a drug as illegal. It is an area of expertise that has previously been lacking on the committee, so we welcome that. We remain concerned at two things. One is the confusion around the different criteria that the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs applies when considering whether to schedule something as A, B, or C class, as opposed to D class. We think that that makes absolutely no sense. There should be one set of criteria. Substances should be looked at in accordance with all of them, and then the recommendations would simply drop out of that. The situation is entirely illogical at the moment. The other concern we have is about the lack of ability for either the Health Committee or the House to recommend amendments to notices of motion under the affirmative resolution procedure. This House needs to address that, because it means we must either reject or accept the Minister\u2019s recommendation. For us to reject a recommendation would be a pretty substantial slap in the face for a Minister, and members are unwilling to do that without very, very good reason. But there may be good reasons to tweak a recommendation by a small amount, and there should be provision for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe support the introduction in the bill of a new offence around the import and export of precursors. We support that because the Greens actually said, during the reclassification of methamphetamine, that the Government needed to focus on precursors. We are pleased to see that happening but, once again, we are concerned about the enforcement powers and the provision of search without warrant powers around precursors. Search without warrant powers are draconian powers of search and seizure. They should be used very rarely and with real justification. When the Health Committee invited the officials to say why we needed to provide search without warrant powers, their explanations just were not convincing. The Greens are concerned about the proliferation of search without warrant powers made by this Parliament. It has happened in a number of Acts, including the Local Government Act, which has search without warrant powers relating to alcohol prohibition areas. Those things are, obviously, a breach of New Zealand Bill of Rights Act guarantees to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, and the Greens remain unhappy about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESo the Greens support the bill, with some concerns. Before I finish, I will touch on some of the broader issues around the bill. Drug policy, like law and order, is a fruitful perennial for politicians. I end with a plea, really, for more evidence-based decision-making when it comes to policy making by this Parliament. I expressed concern already in the Committee stage and at the second reading about the \u201CUFO\u201D amendment that allows the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs to recommend on evidence the reclassification of a substance if it increases the penalties, but not if it decreases them. I thank Heather Roy for her quite clear exposition of the offensiveness of that provision. It is a serious thing\u2014it states that we will pay regard to evidence if it makes punishment more serious, but not if it reduces punishment. That is in line with the recently launched drug policy of United Future, which states that drug classification should be constantly reviewed and monitored to ensure it complies with the available evidence, but that the party will totally ignore any evidence that does not point to harsher penalties. United Future states that quite blatantly. I have never seen a party policy state so blatantly that the party will ignore evidence that does not fit its preconceptions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EMy concern is that that unashamed contempt for evidence and information that does not fit United Future\u2019s preconceptions currently influences drug policy in this Parliament, by way of the confidence and supply agreement with the Government. That is a serious issue for this country and this Parliament to think about. I know that United Future will be reduced to irrelevance after the election, so I am not really saying this to have a swipe at it. I am saying it more to members of the House and political parties in general. My hope, quite genuinely, is that political parties and members are genuinely committed to evidence-based decision-making, particularly when it comes to drug policy, and to supporting policies that work and can be shown to work\u2014policies that reduce the harms associated with drug use. I would have thought that that, surely, was the goal of us all. I find it hard to believe that anyone at all in this House wants to increase the harms associated with drug use, but my worry is that often that is what we do, as an unintended consequence of ill-informed policy-making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIn that regard, I end by reinforcing the plea of the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, of a number of members of the select committee\u2014it was echoed by Judy Turner from United Future\u2014and of a number of members of the drug treatment world that the Misuse of Drugs Act be reviewed and overhauled. Again, I thank Steve Chadwick for her comments around the problems of that Act as it stands. It is a mess\u2014an absolute mess. It is confusing, inconsistent, and fragmented, and we need to take that very seriously. The Greens hope that in the next Parliament we may see the development of a drug policy framework that is genuinely integrated, consistent, and, most important, based on the evidence about what actually works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3bbf69c539e42d8b98634b94c7eadac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3bbf69c539e42d8b98634b94c7eadac\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak to the third reading of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). At this third reading I would like to take some time to reflect on why we are bothering to do this. There are those who believe that prohibition should give way to regulation, and that prohibition is a lost cause and a flawed approach to managing drug use and drug abuse in our country. I have been accused of being obsessed with cannabis prohibition\u2014and I suspect that it is true. Maybe I have just spent too long in New Zealand classrooms, along with thousands of other teachers, and tried to invest my time and energy in helping kids meet their potential. Maybe I have grown tired of seeing some of our brightest become apathetic and throw away good years in favour of risk behaviours that see them cut classes, be inattentive when they are in class, and achieving at decreasing levels that are well below their ability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThey become vague, late, overly egocentric, and insensitive to others. Their parents and friends see outbursts and mood swings. At that stage, parents often believe they have a difficult teen. To those families we currently recommend harm minimisation. That sort of means that we will teach them how to work out what level of brain damage is right for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E For a percentage of young people the situation will get a lot worse. Clinicians do not refer to this deterioration as addiction; they call it neurotransmitter deficiency syndrome. Authors Tom Scott and Trevor Grice describe it by saying: \u201CIf an individual\u2019s vats containing the chemicals responsible for calm and moderation are nearly empty, and at the same time the vats containing the chemicals for irritation and rage are full, the chances of responding sensibly to a minor setback or a mild confrontation are much more remote.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESo does the law send a message? Yes, it does. Even if one chooses to ignore the message, the law establishes a commonly held disapproval of certain behaviours. All law is ignored and flouted by a certain sector of society. That does not make it irrelevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIn a famous social experiment that was often referred to when I was at teachers college, a group of university students were employed to help with an experiment, unaware that their behaviour was the real subject of the experiment. They were put in white laboratory coats and asked to modify the behaviour of some other folk by way of an electric shock. They could not see their subjects, but they could hear their responses. Not only were they required to administer the shocks but also they had to increase the voltage for repeated wrong responses\u2014actors were responding appropriately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe outcome was that it was discovered that as long as this behaviour was sanctioned, they would continue to inflict pain and they would even go to the level of taking somebody\u2019s life. One or two did query whether they should continue, but after they received affirming nods they kept going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI mention this because legal sanctioning does have consequences in people\u2019s choices and behaviours. We must be very careful about the legislative messages we send. However, I want to make it clear that United Future does not believe that prohibition on its own is the total answer, or the single strategy that will work. We accept that we need a raft of health and education strategies\u2014and parent education in particular\u2014to address the tragic loss of potential that we currently have in our nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EMr Tanczos claimed that cannabis does not kill. I want to tell members about a friend of mine whose funeral I went to not long ago. He was a very talented young man who did not stay around long enough to discover that he had just got straight As in his course at polytech. He was a talented artist. However, with his talent, he was mentally unstable and had some potential for mental health problems\u2014very manageable ones, if he had stayed off the alcohol and the cannabis. However, he chose to ignore the support around him. For him, cannabis was a gateway drug, and he hanged himself in his parents\u2019 garage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe open casket at his funeral gave his friends the opportunity for a bit of a joke. They put a cannabis reefer between his fingers. They were not my kids, so I could not take it out, but I was angry, because they had overlooked the fact that one of the reasons we were there\u2014one of the reasons he was in that casket\u2014was cannabis. For me it is quite a personal issue, because I have seen too many young people whom I care about deeply whose lives have been detrimentally affected. We as legislators need to make sure that we send a very strong message. We need to keep the human face of drug abuse before us all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI do not know whether this has happened to other members, but I have talked to parents who were relieved that their child had been arrested\u2014appalled that they had reached the state in which they wanted their child to be arrested. Parents have said to me that their child\u2019s life was saved because he or she went to jail. That is an appalling feeling for a parent, and having to sit through that with a parent is pretty appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESo we must make sure that we do not shy away from our responsibilities\u2014that we do all we can in policy and in legislation to make sure that young people, who are our country\u2019s future, are protected from their own poor choices at times and from the pressure they feel to be part of a group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAs I have said, we support Governments having the opportunity, through the Order in Council provisions, to respond quickly to a crisis in the drug world, and we are very happy about that. But, as the Regulations Review Committee recommends, we must use that mechanism sparingly. We were very clear that when a crisis is before us those provisions should be used. Downgrading a substance is not a crisis; it is a policy matter. We would like to see the public, not just the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, have a chance to submit on such matters. We do not believe that downgrading a substance constitutes the kind of crisis that would necessitate the use of Order in Council provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI have looked up the expert advisory committee\u2019s actual advice on party pills, because that has been a huge part of this bill. At the time when it made its recommendations, the committee believed that there was no suitable schedule in the Misuse of Drugs Act. It believed that the Minister for Food Safety should be requested to consider the appropriateness of permitting the chemical benzylpiperazine to be sold as a dietary supplement. It recommended that the Minister direct the Ministry of Health to conduct further research into the potential harms associated with the use of benzylpiperazine, and it recommended that the Minister direct the Ministry of Health to investigate the possibility of gathering prevalence data on benzylpiperazine via the introduction of routine toxicology screening by community laboratories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ELots of recommendations came out that need to be followed through on, and we would be very supportive of seeing those recommendations followed up very quickly. We are keen to see the end of the legal nonsense that currently forces us, through time pressures, to regulate legal substances along with illegal substances. We think that this creates a whole lot of legal nonsense that will get us into trouble in the future. We are therefore very keen to see continue the ongoing work that is needed on this, but we are happy to support the third reading of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u002230c89b18dc814dcf8b4a9d7e04e48945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230c89b18dc814dcf8b4a9d7e04e48945\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I rise with a little bit of nostalgia, which was created by Steve Chadwick when she mentioned that this bill will probably be the last major piece of legislation I will speak on in this House. I have thoroughly enjoyed being a member of the Health Committee. It has been one of the best parts of the time I have spent in Parliament. I will have my valedictory speech in which to say all these things, but I want to say now that working with Steve Chadwick was great. The members of the Health Committee have always tried very hard to work across parties, to get good legislation for New Zealand. Of course, at times one does not agree with a political part of a bill, but most of the time we have worked very well together. I have thoroughly enjoyed that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick said that National had a confused position on this bill. It is not confused at all. The position has been very clear. We support this bill. We certainly support the affirmative resolution process to be used for class A, B, and C drugs. What we did not find acceptable was the way the Supplementary Order Paper was included as a new part, Part 3, \u201CRestricted substances\u201D. We know that this area has been complex. The select committee and the advisers grappled with it to try to find a way to fit it into the bill. Even the Associate Minister of Health acknowledged that it has not been a good process, and that we need a stand-alone bill. So I do not think there is anything unclear about what we have been saying today. It has been very clear indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhat concerns me is the Greens\u2019 contributions to the debate on this bill. I was on the inquiry into cannabis, and I remember very clearly what Nandor Tanczos had to say during that inquiry. I see that he is supporting the process to regulate benzylpiperazine. Mr Tanczos was associated with a store in Queen Street where these drugs are sold. He knows a great deal about them. Yes, he wants the industry to come under legal auspices whereby it is controlled, because that would take other operators out of the business, leaving those who are legally selling these drugs to over-18-year-olds to make more money. He wanted cannabis regulated in the same way. He wanted it decriminalised and made available to those over-18-year-olds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f4ed99290e4479aa497826e3fe9a8e0\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s untrue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a18494282134f55994b839751ead68a\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: I heard that argument many times. What worries me is that the Greens supported Labour during the time of the cannabis inquiry, and we know that the Green Party gets some of its vote from the legalise cannabis group. That party will continue to push for a softening of the law around cannabis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EMr Tanczos has changed his mind. He has become a dad, and I think that does change people. When one becomes a parent, one starts seeing the world a little differently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc0e794bd89a4668a32a2cee06fa093f\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Through sleepy eyes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a0c148bda62449c8c4a2dd42635ab42\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but I think he already had those. As parents, we start thinking about what the effects would be on our children. There is still a great deal of fear out in the community that a Labour-Green coalition would push to have a slackening of the drug laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ERegarding the expeditious scheduling that we see in Part 3, there was concern expressed at the Health Committee that cannabis could be moved from the A, B, and C classification on to the list of restricted substances\u2014that this legislation would provide a mechanism for that. Mr Tanczos talked about having the experts involved. We have the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs advising the Minister at this point. The membership of the committee could be changed. The membership could be changed to comprise people who have a much more liberal view of drugs in this country. That would mean that we would see a loosening and a reduction in classification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIf that happened, I would be extremely worried, as would most mums and dads in this country. We would not want to see any change to the law around cannabis. I sat on that select committee inquiry. We went from one end of the country to the other, it cost a huge amount of money, and we came to the conclusion that there should be no change. But that was not the position of the Greens right the way though the inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ENational supports adding a Ministry of Justice member to the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs. That was an oversight when we debated the first amendment Act. The process was set up by Wyatt Creech, and was brought in because of the Ecstasy and Fantasy issues at the time. Those drugs had been introduced into New Zealand, and the people who produced them changed the chemical structure just slightly in order to avoid the law. Everybody agreed that we needed a very fast process\u2014we wanted it to be a 1-month process\u2014to be able to put those drugs on to the schedule and to stop those who wished to prey on our young people and cause their deaths, all for the sake of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe fully support this bill, which provides for the regulation of the precursors of P methamphetamine. People can be prosecuted if they bring in large quantities of cold remedies, which have ephedrine and pseudoephedrine in them, to try to set up meth labs and produce P. P is the most serious drug issue facing the country at the moment. There has been a lot of effort to crack down on it. Just one tablet can cause significant harm. We saw a similar wave of the use of LSD in the 1970s. People saw too many of their friends end up in psychiatric hospitals due to the use of that medication. Talented young New Zealanders\u2019 lives were ruined. Some survived, some committed suicide, but many had significant mental damage. Hopefully, people will see enough of their friends around them significantly damaged by P to ensure that, once again, it will not become a drug of choice amongst our young people, and they will realise the harm that just one tablet can do to them if they are susceptible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe longitudinal studies that are being done on our young people in Christchurch and Dunedin are interesting. The Dunedin study is especially interesting, as it shows that genetic precursors mean that some people are much more susceptible to drugs and alcohol abuse when adverse events happen. One has to ask why some people get through them and others do not. It has been shown that the genetic predisposition of some people, plus an adverse event\u2014that is, nature plus nurture, or the environment they are in plus their genetic make-up\u2014are what make some people much, much more susceptible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe fully support making sure that ephedrine and pseudoephedrine cannot be brought into the country in large supply. We support the change to the onus of proof in terms of people who have needles in their possession, to improve the needle exchange programme. We will be voting for the bill in its third reading stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00228bbc4327043f4372b9708de464bc1c0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bbc4327043f4372b9708de464bc1c0d\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E As another National member speaking in this debate, I, too, rise to voice support for the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3). A lot of good changes are being made in the bill that will assist officials in their battle against drugs like P, which is surely one of the biggest challenges facing our community at the moment. As many members of the House will have also found when they spoke with the police and looked at the statistics, I know the reason that we have had such an increase in violent crime in the country is largely attributable to the use of P. Although the names and ingredients of those drugs will change, the issues of how to regulate and put in place legislation to control them will remain the same for successive Governments. The issue for us is to put in place good law that will do its best to control illegal drugs, and to put in place a framework that makes it quite clear to people what is right and wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to hear the Minister, Jim Anderton, talk about the bill, because he got himself into a position whereby anybody who voiced any alternative to, or concern with, a provision was suddenly presented as being pro-drugs. The Minister does not have a monopoly on the concern about drugs in the community. The Minister is not the only member of Parliament who is concerned about what is happening in some of our communities as a result of various drugs. That does not take away our right to speak out about concerns about the law, and to put forward some changes that we think will produce better law for the country. The concerns that we have voiced as a party basically related to the use of the affirmative resolution procedure. We totally understand the use of those procedures for illegal drugs that are classified as A, B, or C, but we raised some concerns about the use of similar provisions when it came to substances that were legal. That was the main reason that we voted against Part 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the points that the Minister did not address in any part of the debate was the apparent inconsistency in his thinking in bringing Part 3 into the main part of the Government\u2019s bill. Although the Minister kept saying that it was a Government bill, we all know that Part 3 was a result of the Minister bringing in Supplementary Order Paper 298 in his name\u2014a large change to the law\u2014and attaching it, a bit like a patchwork quilt, to another piece of law. On the one hand, the Progressives say that we are in a situation where we need to regulate benzylpiperazine\u2014one of those changes is to make it quite clear that those substances can be sold to 18-year-olds\u2014yet, on the other hand, one of their main thrusts in bringing another bill to the House is to look at raising the age at which young people can purchase alcohol. On the one hand we are saying that 18-year-olds have the ability to make decisions, to act responsibly, and to apply their thought processes to the purchase of party pills and herbal highs, but on the other hand we are saying that they are not responsible and they do not have the ability to make a choice when it comes to making up their minds about whether they want a glass of beer. I think there is a real inconsistency there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIn my view, we see hypocritical thinking and no logic when we look at the two main pieces of legislation the Progressives have brought to this Parliament. Basically, they are saying different things about the ability of young people to make up their minds and apply their own thought processes to some decisions they make in their everyday lives. Although I challenged the Minister on that, he was not able to get up and explain himself\u2014to say why he was pushing for the age at which one can purchase alcohol to rise to 20, yet remained perfectly happy for people to stroll into a shop and purchase a party pill, a herbal high, or whatever else, at the age of 18. Certainly, there is a contradiction there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI think there are some great things in this bill. When we talk to customs officials and the police, we find that there has been a huge amount of frustration about the inability of officials to be able to nab people who turn up at our borders with caseloads of cough medicines that contain ephedrine and pseudoephedrine. People were able to point to what looked like extraordinarily large quantities of medicines, and to say that they were bringing them in for their personal use. Well, no one involved believed that, but the law did not give customs officials enough tools in their tool-box to be able to deal with those situations with greater clarity. So it is good that this bill lays out some very detailed specifications for how searches can take place, and how they may be executed within officials\u2019 daily procedures. We have lists in the legislation for everything from strip-searches to rub-down searches. There seems to be a lot of detail, but in fact when we are dealing with people who will do whatever they can to get off a charge, or who have lawyers who will do everything they can to get their clients off charges, we need to be incredibly specific about the technical parts of this bill. So I am hoping we have done our work on this bill, and that there will not be any loopholes when the legislation is fully in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThere are some good initiatives to make it easier for people to use needle exchanges, and to not be in a position where they feel that the law does not allow them to carry syringes and take part in their own rehabilitation, without being nervous about being charged for having, or without having to demonstrate proof of why they have, particular items in their possession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things that is very clear is that we as a Parliament will continue to face these sorts of issues. The types of pills and drugs will change. The next generation and the scientists out there, the backroom scientists who try to work out new combinations in order to get around these laws, will continue to do so. The challenge for us is to keep ahead of them, and to ensure that all parts of the public service do their bit to make sure we minimise the amount of drug use in our community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things that this bill does not deal with is the issue of policing. I think it is a real shame that the police put in for additional resources in order to keep on top of methamphetamine laboratories, and received only a small portion of the amount of resource they felt they needed to be able to keep on top of the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe have thrown up some interesting inconsistencies, and I look forward to the debate on the second bill brought to this House by the Progressives. I will be asking them why they think it is OK that 18-year-olds can buy party pills and herbal highs, but they are not trustworthy enough to buy beer or to make a choice about whether they want to have a glass of wine. It seems to me there is more concern about party pills and herbal highs than the Minister gives the public credit for. So there are some interesting inconsistencies on the part of the Progressives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI am glad to stand and support this bill. I think it will go some way towards assisting the Customs Service and the police to ensure they have more tools in their tool-box to deal with those New Zealanders who want to break the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f31a9d80d2b1479a8b93d3b5f9c1f815\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 6; United Future 8; Progressive 2; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278abf787886148a2b857d14aeaf4e4b9\u0022\u003EOverseas Investment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022328020009baa476ab431ace939014b8c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022d72a9cbc1fde40e78b6501f3c7db2348\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d72a9cbc1fde40e78b6501f3c7db2348\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Overseas Investment Bill be now read a second time. The Overseas Investment Bill balances the need for ensuring sufficient protection for New Zealand - sensitive assets with encouraging foreign investment in New Zealand. This bill does that by ensuring that the screening of foreign investment is focused on sensitive assets, encouraging foreign investment that contributes to the New Zealand economy, and reducing compliance costs. New Zealand has a welcome and open attitude towards inward foreign direct investment, and it has been the Government\u2019s intent to maintain that attitude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003ESubmitters on the bill focused on a range of issues that relate to ensuring that foreign investment in New Zealand is of benefit to New Zealand, and to ensuring that the potential gains foreign investments can bring to a small country like New Zealand are realised. The Government agrees that those are indeed the critical questions New Zealand faces when determining its foreign investment regime. Some submitters were in favour of New Zealand adopting a more liberal foreign investment regime, and others favoured a more restrictive one. Other themes that emerged related to a wish for better information on foreign investment in New Zealand, and a wish to ensure that provisions in the bill and conditions placed on an investor\u2019s consent are monitored and effectively enforced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee did not suggest any changes to the bill that significantly affected the balance between the restrictiveness and the liberalness of the regime. The Government concurs with that assessment. As a result of the deliberations of the select committee, changes to the criteria for the assessment of potential purchases of sensitive land by overseas persons have been suggested. The vast majority of transactions covered by the overseas investment regime are land-related, so it was appropriate that the select committee examined that area of the bill in particular detail. The bill specifies a number of factors that may be relevant to the assessment of purchases of sensitive land by overseas persons. As per the first reading of the bill, those factors can be summarised as economic development, natural and historic heritage, walking access, and the offer to the Crown of any foreshore and seabed contained within the sensitive land. The select committee has recommended that the relevant Ministers explicitly consider all the factors\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0d89014b13d435c86275602a8d08014\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9331edcc5484d3181f4f67c5f5b6bda\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD\u003C/span\u003E: The Overseas Investment Bill seeks to ensure sufficient protection for New Zealand\u2019s sensitive assets while encouraging overseas investment in New Zealand. The Finance and Expenditure Committee has recommended that the relevant Ministers explicitly consider all the factors that are specified in the bill. The factors in the assessment of purchases of sensitive land by overseas persons may be summarised as economic development, natural and historic heritage, walking access, and the offer to the Crown of any foreshore and seabed contained within the sensitive land. The Minister must explicitly consider all the specified factors, and determine which factors are relevant and how important each is to the overseas investment in question. Having considered the relevant factors, the Minister must then determine whether the overseas investment will, or is likely to, benefit New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe select committee has suggested also changes to the specific factors to be taken into account when assessing potential purchases of sensitive land. It has recommended to the House that the Crown have the right of first refusal to purchase any lake bed of more than 8 hectares, any riverbed with an average width of 3 metres or more, and any lake included within sensitive land. This welcome addition to the bill ensures that New Zealand has the ability to control whether riverbed and lake bed pass into overseas ownership when they are contained within sensitive land, with provisions similar to those already in the bill around foreshore and seabed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EFurthermore the select committee has recommended that a new factor be added to the bill\u2014a factor relating to the enhancement of the habitats of recreational fisheries and wildlife, and walking access to the relevant areas. This addition to the bill is a result of submissions made to the select committee. Other changes relating to land investments are relatively minor. These include allowing potential enhancements\u2014not solely maintenance of existing assets\u2014to areas of historic heritage, and improvements to walking access to be taken into account when assessments of sensitive land are made. These are relatively small but important improvements to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EAn investor test is applied to all purchases of sensitive New Zealand assets. This will be standardised across business, land, and fishing investments, and will consist of a good character test, a financial commitment test, and a business acumen test. The good character test, which the select committee recommended be given some definition in the bill, applies to all individual overseas persons, while the financial commitment and business acumen tests apply to the collective of a company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill as reported back to the House from the select committee included provision for marginal strips to be set up when sensitive land that adjoins a significant waterway is sold to an overseas person. This provision would have ensured the creation of marginal strips to guarantee that access and conservation objectives around significant waterways were met when sensitive land was being sold to overseas persons. The select committee recommended that no compensation be payable unless the marginal strip is greater than 20 metres in width. A Supplementary Order Paper will be introduced into the House to remove the compulsory acquisition of marginal strips. This will ensure a parliamentary majority for the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill makes provision for factors such as conservation values and walking access to be taken into account when decisions are made regarding investment in sensitive land. Access and conservation objectives will be dealt with on a case by case basis as part of the consent process, rather than as a statutory and automatic provision. The Supplementary Order Paper I mentioned previously contains also a number of technical amendments to the bill. These cover a number of relatively minor technical issues, the most important of which is amending the bill so that consent for a transaction will be required only when a property is acquired or a business is established. So it will no longer be necessary to specifically enable contracts to be entered into or given effect to conditional on consent being obtained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill revises the regulator\u2019s information and guideline functions in clauses 32 and 37 to cover overseas investment rules generally. The select committee has recommended to the House a variety of other changes. The most major of these are as follows. It is recommended that the regulator have a new function: to produce regular statistics. That will assist in ensuring that submitters\u2019 concerns around the information on foreign investment are met. It is recommended that an interest in farmland with a term of 3 years or more must be advertised. It is currently obligatory for all sensitive farmland subject to overseas investment to have been offered and advertised on the open market to New Zealand residents. An exemption currently exists if the interest in the land has a maximum term of less than 21 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EIt is recommended that when considering a consent application the Minister should have the power to consult as he or she thinks appropriate. It is recommended that the regulator be able to charge an administrative penalty when an overseas person seeks a retrospective consent\u2014that is, when that person did not gain a consent when he or she should have. It is recommended that the value threshold of $100 million and the area threshold\u20140.4 hectares for some sensitive land\u2014be placed in legislation in the future, as opposed to being in regulation. This would mean that future changes to the coverage of the regime will have to be endorsed by Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003ENo major changes are recommended by the select committee around the definition of \u201Coverseas persons\u201D, the coverage of the regime, or the monitoring and enforcement of the regime. The Government proposes that the House accept the recommendations I have outlined, and other, more minor recommendations I have not listed, from the select committee. The passage of the Overseas Investment Bill is essential in ensuring that New Zealand\u2019s overseas investment regime strikes the correct balance. I thank the select committee for its consideration of the bill, and I commend the committee\u2019s report to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9c85a870499483a82d75af76ece549e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9c85a870499483a82d75af76ece549e\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I arise on behalf of the National Party in relation to the Overseas Investment Bill. It is the intention of the National Party to support the bill, provided the matter referred to by the Minister in her address, in respect of no compensation for marginal strips, is removed from the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to take a step back and define the issues as I saw them as someone who sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee. There were a great many submissions. I have to say there were, from memory, no submissions in favour of the bill, and I do understand the reasons for that. I want to run though the dilemma, as I see it, from the National Party\u2019s perspective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EOn a relative basis, there have been very few examples when the Overseas Investment Commission has in fact declined purchases of New Zealand land or foreign purchases of New Zealand companies. It has been a relatively lightly used provision\u2014most applications have been accepted. Secondly, there is a genuine concern\u2014and I think a warranted concern from New Zealanders\u2014that we do not want to become tenants in our own country. I think the long-term future of New Zealand is not that of a bunch of people running around serving lattes to foreigners who own our country. We do have a brighter and better future for ourselves than just that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThere is a relatively good argument to say that most countries have some provisions around who can and cannot purchase their land. Of course, the risk in this situation is that New Zealand needs to think about its relative economic position compared with other countries. That is to say, the average American income is of quite some magnitude above the average New Zealand income. By definition, that means New Zealand can become quite a cheap entity. We face within that a risk around times when the exchange rate is particularly low, that New Zealand becomes quite attractive solely from a currency-play perspective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThat is the dilemma New Zealand faces. We have a global world now where the Internet is playing an interesting role. A large number of people are surfing the Internet looking to buy prime pieces of land around the world, and New Zealand is one of those places that is very attractive because\u2014as we know\u2014it is a beautiful nation. Therefore New Zealand is highly attractive because of its price, because of the global nature of the world, and our free capital markets that allow people to come in and buy land. By definition, of course, if one thinks about New Zealand in one sense, most New Zealanders would recognise that the land that is actually attractive to foreigners\u2014and primarily we are talking about high-country stations, and beachfront and lakefront sites\u2014is the land that is likely to be purchased by foreigners when they come to New Zealand. The truth is that they will not come to New Zealand to buy some piece of dirt that is out in the middle of nowhere. Generally speaking, they are coming for the choice bits of a great little country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo I think we have to consider that element and then contrast it with the reasons why, on one level, the National Party supports this bill\u2014that is, there are issues around property rights, and owners wanting to maximise the property\u2019s value when they sell, the fact that we do live in a global world, and, broadly speaking, a sort of acceptance that we are part of a world where we do not want to close ourselves off completely on a number of fronts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo I will take the first of those matters concerning company investments, where the threshold for reference to the Overseas Investment Commission has gone\u2014from memory\u2014from something like $25 million to $100 million. That reflects the fact that it makes sense to do that for companies financed for less than that amount, whether it is foreign or domestic capital financing those businesses\u2014in one sense I see that as being largely irrelevant under that sort of measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EAbove that threshold, I am still relatively supportive, if foreign capital wants to come to New Zealand, but clearly there are national interest reasons why we would want to refer that. But under that level, I think it is just a reflection of the growing size of businesses and of what is relevant to the international situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EAround the issues of sensitive lands, the first important thing to note is that the bill is attempting to tighten up the current situation, but it is worth remembering that there have been very few examples where things have been declined. So we have to put it in that context and say that this bill is an example of where we are actually making it more difficult. Young Nicks Head was a great example of a sensitive piece of land. It is a very small acreage but, regardless of its cost, it is now referred to the Overseas Investment Commission for its review. In that regard, I think that should be seen as a very positive step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to talk for a moment about the marginal strips issue. If we recall the reason for marginal strips, it is really an issue that relates to the Queen\u2019s Chain, which currently applies to about three-quarters of New Zealand. Most New Zealanders do not understand that situation terribly well. They think the Queen\u2019s Chain is either something that has gone or something that applies all around the country. The truth is that it applies to about three-quarters of the country. But my point is\u2014and I think it was introduced by Mr Parker\u2014that in the event of a sale overseas, if the land did not have a marginal strip to which the Queen\u2019s Chain applied, then the Queen\u2019s Chain would be drawn up in the agreement in that instance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EAgain, on one level I have some sympathy for that, and Nick Smith from the National Party proposed having a similar kind of process in his member\u2019s bill. That came from the situation on D\u2019Urville Island, where property was sold to foreigners and, as I understand the case, there was no Queen\u2019s Chain. An offshore owner of an island gave instructions to those looking after the asset, indicating\u2014rightly or wrongly\u2014that the owner would not allow anybody else on the island, at all. So New Zealanders were effectively stopped from pulling up their dinghy on the beach, depending on where the high tide mark was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI think, on one level, that locking New Zealanders out of that access to be able to land their boat, alight, and walk up a lake edge or whatever, seems wrong, so in that sense National would be very supportive of protecting that access. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe issue becomes one where, if we are not prepared to require that compensation be paid for allowing for access rights to the Queen\u2019s Chain in private property sales, then we are really taking a significant property right from those who are selling, because the purchaser will almost certainly pay a bit less. That leaves us with the vexed question of whether the Crown wants to pay for the costs required to acquire the Queen\u2019s Chain. In that respect I take it that the current Minister of Finance potentially shares my view\u2014as a possible Minister of Finance\u2014that it is a cost that we do not necessarily want to pay, if I understand that correctly. But National does not think it is fair to demand that the Queen\u2019s Chain be applied on a non-compensation basis. So, on the assumption that that provision comes out of the bill, we will be supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI will digress very slightly to go back to the reason this issue is hugely sensitive, which is that there is a feeling that too much is being sold offshore. Again, I think pastoral leases are a good example of this. It is essentially correct to say that prior to 1995, pastoral leases could not be sold offshore, but now they can be, and quite a number of high-profile pastoral leases have moved offshore. So I think that New Zealanders are right to question that trend. On one level, I think they are right to say that it is their country and they do not want to become tenants in their own country\u2014but on another level it is also important to weigh the property rights of the owner against that view, and to reflect a little on the fact that we now live in a somewhat more global world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe definition of what a foreigner is becomes extremely difficult also. As some people know, I have spent a considerable amount of time living overseas and, under the technical definition, I may well have been deemed to be a foreigner when I came back and bought land back in New Zealand. So that situation creates some interesting issues. There is also the argument around someone who lives offshore but who wants to come to New Zealand and does not want to remain a taxpaying resident. That person may well have good grounds to buy here. So National will be supporting the bill, assuming the provision relating to marginal strips comes out, but we recognise that this is quite a finely balanced debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022effdf508aa0d401baa9f90a234fca215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022effdf508aa0d401baa9f90a234fca215\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to deal with the issue of marginal strips. Because of the numbers in Parliament, we are being forced to drop the marginal strip provisions of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c60cc7e25633403a8ee76a4fb52453c8\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226118bd3a6cf5438dadc93094191ac219\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; it is the effect of democracy. But I want to explain why we in the Labour Government feel that we were right to include them, and wish that we had the numbers to put those provisions through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe underlying assertion behind Mr Key\u2019s argument that I disagree with is the idea that a property right in land includes the right to sell it to an overseas person without restriction. That fundamental assertion underlies Mr Key\u2019s objection to the compulsory laying off of marginal strips when one sells land to an overseas person. Of course, the position at law in New Zealand and in many overseas countries, including provinces of Canada, parts of Japan, and many other countries, is that there is not an unrestricted right to sell to an overseas person. Indeed, as Mr Key referred in his own speech, until 1995 there was a virtual prohibition on the sale of rural lands to overseas persons, under a part of the Land Settlement Promotion and Land Acquisition Act 1952, which was not repealed until 1995. So the idea that a Government has to concede that a property right in rural land includes the unrestricted right to sell it to an overseas person is wrong logically, I suggest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022823e787b049a4c159fbdd59dc11d1b3e\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not unrestricted now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fe15ba1926d449f926bdb6703a0c246\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know that it is not completely unrestricted now, but it was virtually prohibited until 1995. If it was permissible virtually to prohibit the sale of land to overseas purchasers, it must be permissible and not in contravention of the private property right to have a lesser degree of restriction on the sale of overseas land. All that the provisions in the legislation did was to impose a lesser degree of restriction on the sale of rural land to overseas persons than was the case until 1995. It was not expanding upon the position before 1995; it was trying to restore rights of access to our waterways, which are sometimes placed at greater threat when land is sold to overseas persons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat evidence did the Finance and Expenditure Committee have that there were legitimate concerns on this front? For a start, advertisements for Poronui Station were placed before us. Poronui Station was advertised for sale for US$50 million\u2014in US currency\u2014in airline magazines. The advertising material plainly included \u201Cprivate water\u201D as a benefit to those who would acquire the property. That was emphasised in a number of places in the documentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI know that in my electorate I have had complaints from some of my constituents that some of the overseas purchasers of our rural land more rigidly stick to what they assert to be their private property right to exclude people from accessing waterways that pass through their properties. We have the ridiculous situation that the title of some of those properties runs under the river, and so, although the landowner does not own the water, he or she owns the riverbed. People have the right to float down the water, but they have not got the right to walk down the riverbed if they are fishing\u2014except with the consent of the landowner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne cannot fix all of these problems, which have grown up over time through accidents of history, I suspect. Mistakes were made in contravention of directions by earlier Governments that marginal strips should always be laid off. Sometimes those instructions were ignored by the relevant ministries, particularly in relation to pastoral land, where pastoral leases defined just the boundary, and really did not have regard to the need to lay off marginal strips alongside some of the rivers that passed through that land. So Labour reached the position that it was appropriate to actually record that a private property right to land does not include the right to sell it to an overseas person without restriction. It never has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI would also like to point out what I see as\u2014I am not allowed to use certain words here\u2014absolutely irreconcilable: on the one hand, certain political parties deny that M\u0101ori should have any rights to the foreshore, because we need to protect the rights of all New Zealanders to access the foreshore, yet those same political parties, including National, oppose restrictions on the sale of land to overseas people that would see the compulsory laying off of marginal strips alongside waterways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI am one who is sad to see those particular provisions lost from the bill, but we are reliant on United Future to pass this legislation, and those members would not have supported it with those provisions in it, so accordingly we are removing those provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe balance of the legislation is good legislation. It effectively reflects the status quo in respect of business purchases that are to be permitted as of right, without Overseas Investment Commission approval being required. Purchases up to the new limit have, in recent decades, always gone through anyway, so there is no point in further regulating them. With those comments I am pleased to note my support for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022748da5f34c6845a98915d128e6d0ec59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022748da5f34c6845a98915d128e6d0ec59\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to this Overseas Investment Bill, I just remind the House that I think it is quite ironic that we are seeing a bill such as this go through the House today in all its stages under urgency. This was a bit before my time, but a few members in the House will probably remember the Allan Wallbank petition to stop land sales to foreigners. It went up and down this country, and was signed by New Zealanders in provincial towns and cities all over the place. It was vigorously supported by the Labour Party, and was one of Labour\u2019s big campaign issues at one time. Also, I think it is ironic and crazy that the National Party is supporting a bill like this. It does not surprise me that National is supporting it, because only 6 months ago we saw a policy flip-flop from the National Party, when all of a sudden it thought twice about selling State-owned enterprises, such as Kiwibank and some other strategic State-owned assets. All of a sudden it had a change of heart on that, and developed a passion to keep certain assets in the hands of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI do not think that National was passionate about that, but it obviously changed its policy because of what the facts tell us, which is that New Zealanders are concerned about the issue and do not want more land or businesses to be in the hands of foreign-owned enterprises. I think it is very clear that the people of New Zealand have spoken on that issue. Labour has introduced this bill and National is supporting it, when they have a track record together of selling off $16 billion of State-owned assets between 1984 and 1996. After having a culture such as that within those parties, it does not surprise one to see this kind of legislation today. It was, indeed, asset sales such as those in the 1980s and 1990s that saw MMP evolve. One of the main reasons that people were outraged at the Labour and National Governments of the 1980s and 1990s was the fact that people did not feel that they were listened to. People felt that those Governments just railroaded over their beliefs and did what they thought was the best thing for New Zealand, without listening to people. That is actually one of the reasons we have MMP today\u2014obviously there are a few other reasons, but that was one of the main reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EAnother issue that I want to talk about today\u2014and I guess I will be talking about it in a little more depth over the Committee stage\u2014is how the threshold of ownership will be increased, as far as business investment is concerned, from $50 million to $100 million. Well, for a start, I think we should have looked at moving it in the other way\u2014taking it from $50 million downwards, rather than pushing it up to $100 million. But I just want to highlight, and bring to the House\u2019s attention, the fact that some businesses that were sold just in the last couple of years will miss out on this threshold, and will not be looked at now because of the higher threshold. The Sime Darby Motor Group Ltd of Malaysia paid $61 million - plus, with a potential additional consideration of up to $5 million, to acquire Truck Investments Ltd. Its businesses include trucks sales, companies, and a few other things. Skycity Entertainment Group Ltd paid $93 million for Aspinall (NZ) Ltd, which owns 40.5 percent of the Christchurch Casino. That, obviously, would miss the threshold. The AMP New Zealand Office Trust, owned 43 percent from Australia, paid $71 million for Mobil on the Park down here in Wellington, and $75 million for the BNZ Centre. Telecom New Zealand Ltd, owned 72 percent from overseas, paid $62 million for the information technology services company Gen-i Ltd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EWe have a few other examples, which I will skip over, because there is such a long list. I think that illustrates my point very clearly. Vero Insurance New Zealand Ltd of Australia\u2014the former Royal and SunAlliance New Zealand\u2014paid $68 million for the motor vehicle and consumer goods warranty and credit insurance business of AutoSure Group Holdings. I will highlight just a couple more examples to the House. The UBS Group timber investors of USA paid $81 million for trees and forestry in the central North Island, and then there was a very interesting one that I want to finish off with. There are obviously a lot more purchases that would miss out on the new threshold. But the Brunswick Corporation paid $54 million for 70 percent of Navman New Zealand Ltd, with an option to buy the remaining 30 percent by 2005. Navman is a New Zealand - based electronics manufacturer of marine electronics and general navigation products. As I was reading about that, I took a few seconds to think about it, and it stopped me in my tracks. I remember the Minister for Industry and Regional Development trumpeting that business as one of New Zealand\u2019s greatest successes. It was to be a new export opportunity for New Zealand, and it was going to create lots of jobs for New Zealanders and lots of profit for New Zealand. I then noted that Navman was sold to Brunswick Corporation for $54 million, which would miss out on that threshold. I think that is a very interesting thing to note and highlight to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EAnother issue I want to raise in this House is the definition of \u201Cgood character\u201D. The test of \u201Cgood character\u201D is used in a number of places, but the term is not defined in the bill. I believe that there needs to be a tightening up of that definition. Actually, it is not defined at all. The bill just states \u201Cgood character\u201D; that is what is there. The Overseas Investment Commission will think that it is all right as long as either a solicitor, or even the individuals themselves, write a letter to say that they have \u201Cgood character\u201D. I would think that most people, or most corporations, would say that they had great character. It should be up to the Overseas Investment Commission in New Zealand to make that decision, rather than to just take their word for it. I also think that the Minister should take more responsibility in that decision-making process, and I will elaborate more on that in the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EWhile we are on the definition of \u201Cgood character\u201D, I point out that the Overseas Investment Commission, in its 1998 report, even stated itself that the term was mentioned numerous times in New Zealand legislation, but was not once defined. The law is very ambiguous on that issue, which leads to extremely weak enforcement in the present situation. That is added to by the Overseas Investment Commission\u2019s ineffective methods or criteria. The regime is simply ambiguous and needs to be changed. I shall read a recommendation by one of the submitters to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It is a very interesting recommendation, and reads: \u201CThe term \u2018good character\u2019 should be defined in the bill. Its definition should reflect court interpretation, but should be wider than criminal convictions, including adherence to common ethical standards and absence of acts that would be illegal in New Zealand, or which have given rise to adverse civil court findings.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b36248a2ff634730a0a433dcbe82e214\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b36248a2ff634730a0a433dcbe82e214\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E That was an example of why people should take another take on this election. Could the two old parties please consider going into coalition together instead of with New Zealand First, because if either of them do, heaven help us! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI am going to be very unpopular. It is easy to take the populist stand on legislation like this and say that we support it. There is a lot of emotion around foreign investment in this country, and a lot of that emotional talk is absolutely not founded on reason at all. We have just had an example of it. This country was founded on foreign investment\u2014our insurance companies and our banks. Our banks are still mostly owned by foreigners. If New Zealanders do not like that, they do not have to use them. They do not have to use the bank, they do not have to use their mobile phones, and they do not have to patronise foreign companies. Foreign investment, overwhelmingly, has been very good for this country. We would not survive without it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EInterestingly enough, those who follow Australian politics might remember Prime Minister Paul Keating saying a while back that the foreign ownership of the Gold Coast must be stopped. He wanted to stop Japanese people from buying up property on the Gold Coast. The reason he came out with that\u2014because in Australia they are a lot more robust than us\u2014was that they did not want those slanty-eyed people buying the Gold Coast. Someone else answered him in the debate by saying that no, they were buying it all off New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThat is the problem. There are already restrictions on foreigners buying land in New Zealand, and I contend that those restrictions are stringent enough. But if we start to restrict them even further we have to be consistent and consider what that does to New Zealanders who want to buy overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EBut I come to the basic principle of this bill, which is the issue of private property rights. I strongly believe that people who own property have the right to sell it to somebody who will pay them the highest price. It comes back to emotion again. A lot of people think that they do not want foreigners owning all our prime pieces of land. But if those people owned that prime piece of land they would want to get the best price for it when they sell it. They might want to sell their high-country station and use the money to fund their grandchildren\u2019s tertiary education or put it into a retirement fund. We already have restrictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EMr Parker, on the opposite side of the House, seemed to imply that parties who opposed this bill want unrestricted access. We are not saying that. We are saying that the restrictions that are already there are stringent. The National member John Key cited D\u2019urville Island. He said that it was sold completely to foreign ownership. He disagreed with that because, he said, ordinary Kiwis could not pull up their dinghies on the beach. A lot of ordinary Kiwis would like to have a swim in his Parnell swimming pool, but they are not allowed to. Why? Because it is his private property, and that is respected. People respect that he owns it, that he worked hard for the money that went into building and purchasing it, and that he has the right to restrict access to any common Kiwi who wants to have a swim in his pool. One cannot equivocate with property rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EMr Key talked about New Zealanders not wanting to be tenants in their own land, or not wanting to serve lattes to foreign owners who come to places like Central Otago or Northland. I was one of those waitresses serving lattes to foreigners several years ago, and it is a great way for ordinary Kiwis to recapitalise and get some money in their bank balances. Those people bring money to this country\u2014[Interruption] He is up there, hiding behind the yellow boxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIt is a good way to increase ordinary people\u2019s wealth. Is there not something of the drawbridge mentality in this attitude? \u201CI\u2019m here, pull up the drawbridge and don\u2019t let anybody else come in.\u201D If we were consistent about this we would say that no white people could buy land in this country. We are all foreigners if we take the tangata whenua attitude and philosophy that M\u0101ori were the first people to occupy this land so they are the true tangata whenua. Then all of us could go the whole Fiji way, could we not? I am not advocating that; I am just pointing out the inconsistencies in some of those arguments, and the fact that it is very dangerous to start going down that road and saying what is good or not good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe issue of Young Nicks Head came up. Sure, that was something that people felt very strongly about, there were protests, and it was on television every night, but we cannot pass legislation every time some minority group decides it does not want a piece of land sold. There was nothing to stop those people who were protesting about the sale of that land forming a company or a cooperative, getting a loan, and purchasing the land themselves. They were not barred from owning it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe have to look at the issue of the marginal strip, which we will obviously deal with further in the Committee stage. If one is a foreigner and buying a piece of land for squillions of dollars, it will be a condition of consent that the Minister might say: \u201CWell, you give us that marginal strip and you can buy it.\u201D\u2014as I understand it, that is how it will be if the Supplementary Order Paper goes through\u2014and if the purchaser is paying a lot of money for it, then he or she will probably agree. Why is a foreigner paying a lot of money for that land and protecting that marginal strip any different from a New Zealander paying a lot of money for it? As I understand it, a New Zealander will not have to go through that same process. A New Zealander could actually buy it lock, stock, and barrel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a60e83b26847aba749adf934232173\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no consent process for New Zealanders at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e822f542db4ea996c9bcc151d348bf\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: There is no consent process at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIf the marginal strip is so valuable and is such an asset, surely it is an asset regardless of who the purchaser is or what he or she is paying. That is something I do not understand, and I hope that someone else can throw some light on that, because if we are to have that for a foreign person buying it, then surely we have to have it for a New Zealander buying it as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI will get back to the issue of foreign ownership. Someone\u2014I cannot remember who the speaker was\u2014raised the issue of New Zealanders being very opposed to a number of overseas people who are not citizens of this country coming over here and buying our prime real estate. Before I came to the House I read through a number of the submissions. Some of them were extreme, like those from the Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa, which, I suppose, one has to admire. It has been around for a long time. But we have to look at the ethnicity of some of the people who started it; it goes back to the drawbridge mentality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIn general, the people who want to come here and buy land, and who put a lot of money into it, are people who are attracted to this country because of those Kiwi assets, if you like\u2014the wild open spaces, the rivers, the lakes, and the seabed. They are escaping what they came from. There is no evidence that foreign owners are in any way, general or otherwise, any worse owners of the land. They cannot put it on a ship and take it away with them. They can only keep investing in it. So ACT members are opposed to this bill. I think we are the only party in the House that is opposed to it, but none the less we will stand on our strong principle of property rights and we will vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc683d39fb4944459e6a8d5f906bb71f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc683d39fb4944459e6a8d5f906bb71f\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E It will not surprise anyone in this House, least of all Dr Michael Cullen, that the Green Party is opposed to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220346e255d0a843ad841b87ed141cf650\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Thank goodness! That\u2019s a relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240b01a5522ad4cb582b407d4d248b1bc\u0022\u003EROD DONALD\u003C/span\u003E: I am glad it is a relief. Dr Cullen was worried I was going to turn round on this one. We were tempted to do so at one point, actually, because we are very keen on the marginal strips provisions that are contained in the bill. We disagree with the ACT party, in that we do think it is appropriate for foreign investors to recognise how we do things down here\u2014the fact that we value and treasure access to the outdoors\u2014and that it is appropriate, if a foreign investor is allowed to buy a significant piece of sensitive land beside a lake, by the beach, or adjoining a river, to provide a marginal strip giving Kiwis access to that public open space. So at the Finance and Expenditure Committee we were very keen to support the amendments initiated by the Labour member for Otago, David Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ETherefore, when United Future pulled the plug on those amendments by threatening to withdraw support for the bill if it did not provide for compensation for foreign landowners, we gave serious consideration to supporting it, at least at the second reading stage, just because we think the provision of marginal strips is a positive element. But at the end of the day we decided that the bill is so bad in so many other respects that we could not bring ourselves to back it. We are extremely disappointed that United Future - Outdoor Recreation NZ has put compensation for foreign investors ahead of access to the great outdoors for Kiwi recreationalists. I think there is an inherent contradiction within United Future when it claims to be the sensible environmental party, then pulls the rug out from under the very people it claims to represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI turn to the bill in its broadest sense. It is a giant con job. There is no doubt about that. When Dr Cullen announced in November 2003 that he was conducting a first principles review of the Overseas Investment Act, everyone knew what lay behind that smokescreen. He said that he wanted to provide greater protection from foreign ownership for iconic sites of historical, cultural, or environmental interest, but it was clear that he would use the facade of providing that protection to sell off the buildings and businesses associated with such iconic pieces of land. That has come to pass with this piece of legislation. It is remarkably cheeky to put in the purpose clause the comment that the legislation is all about acknowledging that it is a privilege for overseas persons to own or control sensitive New Zealand assets, then proceed to make it even easier for foreign investors to gobble up more of our economy, and to allow not just more of our land but also more of our businesses and central business district buildings to be taken over by foreign investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI would like to spend a couple of minutes pointing out that there are some good provisions in this bill, and that the Green Party is grateful for them. We hope we will not see the arrival of a Supplementary Order Paper to remove these good provisions after I highlight them to the Minister. It is good to see a tightening of the monitoring regime, in addition to what was already in the bill. That is a positive step. It is good to see an expansion of clause 18 to incorporate introduced wildlife, alongside the provisions that are already there for indigenous wildlife. It was good to hear Government members of the select committee recognise that Treasury officials are very much on the side of foreign investors and international organisations like the World Trade Organization, rather than batting for Kiwi battlers when it comes to placing appropriate controls on foreign investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EBut this bill falls way short of the recommendations the Finance and Expenditure Committee came up with back in 2001, when we comprehensively reviewed the Overseas Investment Commission. We looked particularly at the activities of the commission in relation to the Southland Plantation Forest Co. investment, and we found that the commission had fallen down badly. At best, the commission claimed there would be a net marginal gain in employment as a result of the approvals it gave that led to a lot of farmland in Southland being taken over by a Japanese forestry company. But at worst we have seen a community torn apart, which is why Labour members and I recommended jointly that an additional commissioner be appointed to represent the wider community, and that the application of the national interest criteria be extended to all proposals, not just land proposals. We can see the merit of that when we look at clause 18 of the bill. While that clause is appropriate for land, it is even more appropriate for business propositions, yet businesses have to pass only a good character test. So it would be sensible to extend the bill to cover all sensitive assets, not just land. That will be dealt with in one of a number of amendments that we will put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWe will put forward also an amendment on another issue that was highlighted by the Labour and Green select committee members back in 2001, when we agreed that the current $50 million threshold should be revised downwards. I would like to acknowledge my New Zealand First colleagues at the time for supporting the Green position that the threshold should be reduced to $10 million. That was the threshold just before the 1999 election. Mr Bolger lifted it to $50 million by sleight of hand, and this Labour Government has enshrined that in the closer economic partnership agreement with Singapore. The threshold is going in the wrong direction with this bill, which lifts it to $100 million. We want to take it back to $10 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWe\u2014the Labour and Green select committee members\u2014wanted the Overseas Investment Commission to consider the impact on social well-being, environmental sustainability, and economic sovereignty when considering an investment in New Zealand, and I do not think this bill provides for that. Also, we wanted a code of corporate responsibility to be introduced. I concede that the bill does now contain a definition of \u201Cgood character\u201D, which is a step forward, but it does not go as far as a code of corporate responsibility. The national interest test should be expanded to ensure that any investment is compatible with Treaty of Waitangi obligations, a consideration that is completely absent from this bill. So instead of going forward and adopting in legislation the recommendations of the 2001 review, this bill has gone backwards. It has ignored the petition of over 7,000 New Zealanders calling for tighter controls on foreign investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI would like to make it clear\u2014particularly to the ACT member who perhaps tried to imply that some of us who oppose this bill are against foreigners\u2014that the Greens are not against foreigners. We are more than happy for people of foreign descent to make New Zealand their home, but if they want a slice of heaven they should have to make a commitment to this country. Almost half of our candidates in this year\u2019s election were born overseas, so we are not anti-foreigner; what we are is very pro - New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ESo we say no to land sales to foreign investors, whether they are corporate or individual, and we say that business investments must be greenfield investments. They must add value to our economy, not subtract value from it. That has been the problem. Foreigners have taken over Tranz Rail, Telecom, Air New Zealand, and Powerco. Many former central and local government assets have fallen into foreign hands. We have all seen the results of those takeovers, yet this bill is appallingly weak when it comes to scrutinising such investments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI will put forward some amendments to strengthen the bill so that it genuinely allows only foreign investments that are in the best interests of New Zealand\u2014because that is what we need. We do not want our net national debt to grow any larger than the $123 billion that it is at the moment. We do not want to be paying any more interest or dividends on foreign investment. For the year to December, $8.9 billion was the balance on income, because of the high level of foreign investment. We need to make our economy more self-reliant and sustainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002259722fee5baa43b8b06b811e7a0e22ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259722fee5baa43b8b06b811e7a0e22ec\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the second reading of the Overseas Investment Bill, which I think is a good bill. Probably, it strikes a fair balance between New Zealand\u2019s need for overseas capital on the one hand, and the protection of sensitive land sales to people who have no intention of becoming New Zealand residents on the other hand. However, as is well known in the House, a degree of controversy arose around the amendments proposed to the original bill by David Parker, the member for Otago and a member of the Labour Party. Those amendments aimed to introduce marginal strips alongside rivers and lakes when land is sold to people who are not New Zealanders and who have no plans to become New Zealand residents\u2014in other words to people who are merely part-time or visiting landowners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to make it clear that United Future supports the creation of marginal strips in those circumstances, and I thank David Parker for raising the issue. Unfortunately, however, there was a fly in the ointment\u2014quite a small fly, but a very, very important and significant one\u2014and that was the specific provision in the bill that no compensation is payable to any person in exchange for the marginal strips. That is a very, very serious departure, and, from our point of view, an unacceptable departure, from the common law tradition going right back to Magna Carta that has always held there should be no confiscation without compensation. United Future was not prepared to live with a precedent of that sort in any New Zealand legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe timing of this bill was extremely interesting, because while the Finance and Expenditure Committee was debating the question of no compensation, my member\u2019s bill\u2014a bill amending the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 to provide for property rights in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and specifically stating that no one was to be deprived of the use and enjoyment of his or her own property without just compensation\u2014was drawn from the ballot. That was one factor. But there is another factor as well, of course, and that is that the Government has announced its intention to proceed down the road not only of requiring marginal strips when sensitive land is sold to overseas persons, but, indeed, of requiring marginal strips from other New Zealand owners, as well, regardless of whether they intend to sell their property to a New Zealander or to an overseas person, and regardless of whether they intend to sell their property at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI think the whole nation is aware that this is an enormously controversial matter\u2014so controversial that we have farmers in this country pledging to go to jail if land is to be removed from them without compensation. I have had delegations from Federated Farmers in Marlborough on that issue, and they were good enough to read out a statement I sent to their recent regional conference. A huge group of landowners in Waitakere City have approached me, and literally hundreds of farmers in the King Country and in the Waikato have all raised this issue with me. So the timing of legislation that has come to the House with a bland statement that no compensation is payable, really could not have been worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EBut in one sense, perhaps it is good that it did coincide with those other events that I mentioned, because it did\u2014certainly for United Future\u2014give us pause to really consider whether we wanted to support this legislation. I will probably talk a bit more about that in the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EQuite apart from the issue I mentioned, on reflection I believe that it was actually unwise and unnecessary for the Government to try to force the issue of no compensation. I think that the situation that has now arisen, whereby the Government has signified that it will introduce a Supplementary Order Paper in the Committee to take out the provisions about marginal strips from the bill and, rather, deal with that matter during the consents process, is probably the right answer. I say that, because I think that during negotiations on a case by case basis, it is likely that many New Zealand landowners selling sensitive land to overseas residents will actually be quite willing to allow the marginal strip to be created, because they will be getting a price from the overseas purchaser higher than they can get from a New Zealand purchaser. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn that situation, therefore, they have every financial incentive to agree to a marginal strip, and so we neatly avoid, entirely, the question of taking that strip without compensation. It can be done by mutual agreement. United Future believes that that is the preferred way forward, so we are very, very pleased that the bill has been amended to take into account our considerations in that regard. We will, therefore, be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb737f81d2e84a9286b7dcd48c4c2ced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb737f81d2e84a9286b7dcd48c4c2ced\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a short call in this debate to support my colleague the Hon Judith Tizard, who moved the second reading of the bill. I wish to speak on it at just a philosophical level rather than a detailed one, and light upon one small matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIt seems quite clear to me that we need balance in these matters, particularly in relation to sensitive lands. There are concerns about excessive amounts of sensitive land passing into foreign ownership, but as soon as one tries to legislate that pretty well all land cannot be taken into foreign ownership, or requires some enormously complicated process in order to approve it, then we make it almost impossible for a very wide range of economic development to occur within New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis country has always relied upon substantial amounts of foreign capital for its development. Until we lift our savings rates to a very, very, very much higher level than at present, that will remain the case. Certainly, I suggest gently to my Green colleagues that if they want to be so much in favour of New Zealand ownership and of the lifting of savings rates, then they should at least begin by supporting the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, instead of opposing that part of a long-term sustainable policy based upon savings that accumulated from New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E The second point I would make in that respect is that land does not go away, simply because somebody has bought it. In fact, it is far easier to buy a factory and remove it from New Zealand than it is to buy a high-country sheep farm and remove it from New Zealand. It is very difficult to move a high-country sheep farm to some foreign country. The land does endure, in a way that other economic assets do not endure. So it is important that in this bill we provide mechanisms to consider quite specifically issues around access and so on, as part of the consideration of approval for foreign purchase of New Zealand land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI might say in that regard that the purchase of Young Nick\u2019s Head, for example, turned out to be better than if the previous absentee New Zealand owner had remained there. It was a deteriorating farm, with no access for New Zealanders, no Government ownership of the most sensitive part of the land, and a very unclear relationship in terms of the rights of local M\u0101ori to look after certain parts of that land. The new owner, Mr Griffin, has provided a much more satisfactory relationship. The land purchase by Shania Twain caused a great deal of interest in Otago, and we were able to gain some important concessions in terms of completing a track through the South Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279006881b78d4c3c830a0dd0efd92034\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s going to sing at the Labour Party conference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a5ca807e6d4017a85c52a274d9b507\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course Mr Brown, speaking with that perfect North London accent as he does, will stand up for the rights of native New Zealanders in these respects, without a single conscious thought that this might involve an \u201Ch\u201D word that we are not allowed to say within this Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI welcome the fact that the National Party will support this bill, after the amendment is moved to remove the marginal strips provisions. [Interruption] But I would gently say to Ms Wong, before she goes much further, that it was her own colleague Dr Nick Smith, not to be confused with Young Nick\u2019s Head, who introduced a member\u2019s bill to provide for the compulsory acquisition of marginal strips without compensation, which the National Party voted for and sent to a select committee. Now, the National Party says in this bill that to act in that manner fails to recognise the foundation of our society. It is not something relatively minor; it is the foundation of our society! Ms Wong is telling us that Dr Nick Smith ignores the foundation of our society, in terms of his\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229734267642274cc7adee9e58fa4ad0f2\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: He does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251c301aeabc84387a17ec5cca4bd8ac7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: He does, does he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d49b283415ff4f38ac459a89d7b3d021\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Who put that in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce8f0fc6a33441e90521893c277e805\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think he put that in the bill. Dr Nick Smith is the person who I think put that in the bill, without any doubt at all, because it was a bill in his name. The bill states \u201CDr Nick Smith\u201D at the top of it, which is usually a subtle hint for the careful reader that that is the person who put that in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI am pleased that the National Party has done a U-turn on this. I predicted it would, when Dr Smith\u2019s bill was sent to a select committee. I am grateful for the support of United Future. I recognise that there has been an issue of principle for them in this bill, which is why we have removed those provisions. I am grateful for the support of the National Party. I am baffled, I have to say, by the ACT party\u2019s position on this, which seems to be totally open slather, but when a party is sitting on a proud 2 percent and going downwards, it can be very free and easy with its principles. When one is a retiring member of a party that is sitting on 2 percent and going downwards, that member can be even freer and easier with his or her principles, because there is not really a lot to lose at that stage in life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI look forward to the Committee stage. The Government will be voting against all the amendments moved by Mr Rod Donald, and we hope for support from both the National Party and United Future in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u002275553941755841c6b294fbb238bab3b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275553941755841c6b294fbb238bab3b4\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take up just two points made by Dr Michael Cullen, the Minister of Finance of New Zealand. Firstly, if Dr Cullen is so concerned about New Zealanders not saving, I challenge him to give them a generous tax cut to enable them to save. A tax cut of 67c per week in 3 years\u2019 time will not help most New Zealanders save up to buy even a piece of brick in Auckland\u2014if they live in Auckland. Secondly, I fail to see how Dr Nick Smith can be connected to this Overseas Investment Bill, which is labelled as a Government bill and into which Labour member David Parker introduced the creation of compulsory marginal strips without compensation. I hope Labour takes some responsibility for that. After all, this is a Government bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENational supported the Overseas Investment Bill at its first reading and its referral to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, because we also believe in striking a balance between the benefits derived from overseas investment, and the public\u2019s desire to maintain the long-established New Zealand practice of providing public access for outdoor recreational activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut the vast majority of submissions, including the 8,000-signature petition, that we received and heard during the select committee process were against the bill. This reflects the public perception, after a number of high-profile cases, of the failure of the Overseas Investment Commission in following up and enforcing the obligations of overseas investors to fulfil their conditions of purchase. This perception of lack of enforcement led to calls from many submitters and signatories to restrict or ban overseas investment. But we should distinguish enforcement and undesirable conduct from banning overseas investment per se.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe main enforcement agency, which has been the Overseas Investment Commission, argued that it lacked the tools to take effective enforcement action when some overseas investors failed to meet the purchase conditions. One has to wonder why it has taken this agency so long to seek additional tools to carry out its work effectively. During the select committee process, all the members of the committee from all sides of the House shared the sentiment that we are more in touch with the public. All the members of the select committee urged the agencies to be more proactive in monitoring purchase conditions and enforcing the law when those conditions are breached. I imagine that unless a more proactive approach is taken by enforcement agencies to improving negative public perceptions, antagonism towards overseas investment will not be lessened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENational supports the tougher enforcement provisions contained in the bill, and we will keep a very watchful eye on the new enforcement agency to ensure that it does enforce the law. The administration of the overseas investment portfolio was undertaken by the Reserve Bank in the past, and has now shifted to Land Information New Zealand. We certainly would like to see that as a signal that more proactive enforcement action will be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe realised that it must be election year when suddenly the largely cooperative atmosphere in the select committee took a new turn. Suddenly we had to take a lot more time, because David Parker brought in a change. He must have thought it would be an election year winner for him. His action must have had the endorsement of his Labour colleagues. Mr David Parker insisted that marginal strips must be created on sensitive land adjacent to rivers, lakes, and the foreshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1dc7a1aba6b40fa8c7e9792f6696942\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: You could pay compensation for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2b0623d9f74549b35bc2f4d3476854\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: No, it gets worse. The select committee spent a lot of time investigating whether this late addition was within the scope of the bill, whether it was in contravention of New Zealand\u2019s international agreements, and whether it was workable. Ten pages were added to this bill. It became worse when we realised that Mr David Parker wanted the marginal strips to be created for no compensation. I do not know where he studied economics or finance. He argued that that provision would not affect the price obtained by the seller.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d8f4620aacc4ed081608a585ff04302\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a lawyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022946911e1027b472e8918f2f2c568e133\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, lawyers! That explains it. Taking land away to create marginal strips would affect the price that sellers could obtain for their land. Any person of sense could tell us that the sale price must be affected. So at that point National changed its stance. Even though we supported the bill at its first reading, we could not support it at the deliberation stage of the select committee, because the expropriation of property without compensation is a fundamental infringement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EHow could the bill contain such an unacceptable provision but still pass through the select committee and return to the House for a second reading? I think another party has woken up to the fact that this is election year. United Future registered a small protest during the select committee stage, to the effect that it found the provision to create marginal strips without compensation bad\u2014but it was not bad enough to make United Future say it would not support the bill. If United Future had decided to oppose it at that stage, those provisions would not be contained in the bill we are now debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENational gave United Future a hard time. We asked how that party could say it has principles, and how it could put up a weak protest but support the bill\u2014and then we suddenly realised that it must be because this is election year. We understood that a closed-door negotiation had been conducted. United Future is the only party that supported Labour in getting the bill through the select committee stage. We can tell it is election year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe have a lot of questions to ask David Parker. Will he abstain from voting on the bill? Will he vote against it when the Supplementary Order Paper we have been told about is introduced to remove the marginal strip provision? So I am looking forward to examining this bill in detail, to learn what the Otago MP will do. He is facing a stiff challenge from our brilliant Otago candidate. She will give David Parker a hard time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c00b9761a7f421492218fd5ee4d0211\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c50ddc26d44f0d8bbbc6e224158b78\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: His provision is gone, and the next thing left is for him to go, unless he can show his constituents that he will stand up for their interests. I presume that is why he introduced that provision. He has to explain to them why he is backing off from his amendments to the bill. National is looking forward to that part of the debate, and to examining the Supplementary Order Paper that will remove the compulsory acquisition of marginal strips without compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u002260d95da419e241b58df48d6cd43d3028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d95da419e241b58df48d6cd43d3028\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E The National whips have played three extraordinarily cruel hoaxes on Pansy Wong. The first is that they forgot to tell her she is voting for the bill. The second is that they forgot to tell her that the tax cuts National is promising will not really be tax cuts. The third escapes me for now. I think it had something to do with whether there is lunch in the box. They were cruel hoaxes indeed, and I felt sorry for the member being so badly treated in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThe Overseas Investment Bill is quite an important bill, because it seeks to do a couple of very important things. First of all, it seeks to protect the interests of New Zealanders in terms of their access to waterways and their enjoyment of what we see as our birthright, the Queen\u2019s Chain. But at the same time it seeks to encourage overseas investment. One of the reasons it does that is that we rely on overseas investment for our economic prosperity. Pansy Wong and others who have expressed such moral outrage in this debate have forgotten that until we get ourselves, as a nation, into a situation of being good savers, we will rely on overseas investment for much of our prosperity. It is as simple as that. For Pansy Wong and others to stand in this House and say that giving people a tax cut will encourage savings is just so much cant. It simply is not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b924b58a36489c8e1551163f8ea04e\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s baloney!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c5065373c4475ea161325624f13684\u0022\u003EMARK PECK\u003C/span\u003E: As the honourable member for Otaki says, it is baloney. It just will not happen. Indeed, as everybody in this House knows, any signalling of major tax cuts will be met by the response of the Governor of the Reserve Bank putting interest rates up in order to dampen down demand so that inflation remains under control. Anybody with a skerrick of economic understanding knows that. Even John Key knows it. He was the one who said to Don Brash that he cannot introduce tax cuts in a mini-Budget after Christmas; it will take 9 years. National has ramped up the expectations of the public that there will be huge tax cuts, when we know, irrespective of the issues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd51cdcc845e472582a39f89003833a3\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I thought we were debating the Overseas Investment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234d0e8a16b564fa5bedce8b2ef40cad3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is a good point. Would the member please stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229151448b7f6a4e2eb91dd940c7c0163f\u0022\u003EMARK PECK\u003C/span\u003E: I think I have made my point about the economic contribution of overseas investment, but I do wish to raise another point about the need to do something through this bill to protect the interests of New Zealanders. At the same time as we are doing that, we see the orange ribbon campaign going on. I find that quite fascinating. I am getting the wind-up from the whip; I think he wants me to do a better job of this. Those who have raised that issue cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that we cannot provide access over land to the marginal strips, and at the same time say that we need overseas investment as well. There are some fascinating issues in this debate, but I will take the whip\u2019s advice and let others who wish to contribute to it do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00228a0f3c6683d6412ba55835472e6f575c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a0f3c6683d6412ba55835472e6f575c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think Labour played a bit of a cruel hoax on that member. It did not advise him which bill was on the Order Paper. New Zealand is a low-wage economy, on a worldwide scale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecf5d34b38bc4607a5aeb350ffcdd60e\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: I blame the poms for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c679d89b2b9e442f8a7bbb7307570994\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes a joke of it. I know the Government thinks it will have addressed the situation by 2008, when it will give low-paid people 67c a week extra, but I can tell the member that that is not enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e418c13f9b34cc4a3624e6145fa79f1\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: A stick of gum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a38b3ccf7394cf5a8a2a90a6ab6acf4\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is about all it is worth. New Zealand is a low-wage economy. The ACT members and some of the other members who have spoken want to put New Zealand up for sale, with a line at the bottom of the advertisement saying: \u201CGoing cheaply.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e867ba170f841739fee35c472309d8e\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: Flog it off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022062639df19b4449189107b735cb92b43\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: They want to flog it off to everybody. I know that Deborah Coddington and the Hon Michael Cullen stated that land sold to overseas investors does not go away\u2014cannot be taken away. I tell honourable members that as far as the average New Zealander is concerned, it most certainly can be. It might as well be at the other end of the world, because they cannot afford it. If we open this country to buyers worldwide and say that anything and everything is for sale, so they should come here with their money, then the average New Zealander will never get anywhere. If the members on the Government benches do not understand how difficult it is for people to buy their first home, then they should go out and talk to some of the average New Zealanders who are trying to do that. Or if they do not understand how hard it is for a young farmer to get a farm, then they should go and talk to some of those guys who are suffering. John Key is a multimillionaire, Sunday told us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022732b95cc38e84d9f81f58ac0e8a8e7e7\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t believe everything you saw on that programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf9353259eab43e193c0ce0cb9b0e486\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member has a big, flash house in Parnell and a beach house that most of us here would die for. He would not have those assets had he not gone overseas to work for them. He would not have attained them on the pay scales in this country, no matter how good he is at his job. Just for the record, Mr Key is nodding in total agreement. I cannot think of one profession or one trade in which a person would not be better off working overseas\u2014not one. [Interruption] Is the member giving me one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d49a748a0ef477eb7df1d9e145c7ef7\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Graeme Hart\u2014he\u2019s worth about $1.5 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a478f34c37184a219ba618cfac3b5ca7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Where is he living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd078a9dbca74bdfafa05a7debc35006\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: He lives in St Heliers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f53615a1b58649ee862b04f411de0de0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is the one exception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a1d0ada5dd34c39a5706aa0059131a4\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Douglas Myers is another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a01cd0c58df34f24842ecaee44b9a9ea\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, this is difficult enough without these fellows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022987f14119b014056a1b151e363610ea5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is difficult enough. Could we please stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b262a36eb848438c85e50cf4547737af\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I appreciate that we are in urgency and that things move along in a reasonably convivial way, but if the New Zealand First member personalises the debate in a way that involves Mr Key\u2019s non-parliamentary life, then he can expect some interjection from those in Mr Key\u2019s party who sit around him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db8e47a9cdc4f8faf61793bc71774ac\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I take the member\u2019s point. I thought there was an element of camaraderie there\u2014obviously I was mistaken. It was getting out of control. Let us get back to the purpose of the bill. No humour is required at this stage\u2014members should just address the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f14215d7723a4f9282d4f4d5628cabd5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As I recall, Mr Key made reference to his own circumstances in his own speech, and I think he took what I said with good humour. If we open the door for anybody to come here to buy anything, then we encourage young New Zealanders to go overseas to earn the big bikkies needed to come back and buy the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First unashamedly believes that there should be some restrictions on overseas investment in this country. We will not get mixed up like ACT members and confuse that with people who come here with their money on a permanent basis, determined to settle here, invest here, and play a positive part in the economic and social well-being of the country. We are not confusing overseas investors with immigrants who come here and make a commitment to this country. The ACT member seemed to get quite confused when illustrating that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Greens have produced a Supplementary Order Paper much of which, on the surface, New Zealand First supports. We have not had a chance to examine it in detail or to discuss it in caucus, but the Greens make some points that sit comfortably with New Zealand First, particularly in respect of the purpose clause. The Supplementary Order Paper enlarges the purpose clause, basically by adding clause 3(b): \u201CAny ownership or control must be in the national interest for the long term benefit of New Zealanders.\u201D We think that that is a fairly level-headed approach. The Supplementary Order Paper further adds clause 3(c): \u201CPublic participation in decisions about overseas investment will be encouraged.\u201D I tell Mr Donald that New Zealand First will support that also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI regret to say that we have not had a chance to examine the rest of the Supplementary Order Paper in detail, and therefore have been unable to discuss it as a caucus. I notice that the amendment to insert clause 18(2)(g)(i) relates to: \u201Cprovisions made for settlements to claims made under the Treaty of Waitangi, including return of land;\u201D, and that part of that clause refers to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. That puts us on our guard. But we will support the amendment to the purpose clause, because we think that the Greens have enlarged it to reflect what most New Zealanders feel about overseas investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI conclude by drawing the House\u2019s attention to the fact that very recently a football club in the UK, namely Manchester United, was sold in large part to some Americans. There was just about uproar in Manchester. Manchester United is still going. The team is still playing soccer, as far as I know. It has not been moved out of the country\u2014it is still there. The players still play in red and white. It still has Wayne Rooney and all the stars. But the Manchester United fans created uproar. The Government wants to do something like that to this country. It wants to do to New Zealand what has been done to the Manchester United Football Club. It is saying that it will do that to New Zealand\u2014so does it not expect some passion and concern out there? I say to the Government that it is wrong. Can Government members tell me what gain was obtained for the country and for the average New Zealander by the sale of $16 billion worth of assets under Labour and National in the 1980s and 1990s? They should tell me that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201b0e24ae25e499e8d4979959396fd24\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: What have the Romans done for us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ae9aad85db343d0ad1d5ba96d5fb294\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member thinks it is a joke. He did not think it was a joke when he had to buy back Air New Zealand a couple of years ago. He did not think it was a joke when the Government had to buy back Tranz Rail after the average New Zealander had been promised a first-class railway system. If the Government has not learnt the lesson of selling things cheaply, then it should have done so by now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is a political party founded on the principle that, first and foremost, it will look after New Zealanders and this country. [Interruption] The member over there makes a noise, but if he thought a little more deeply about what the people in Otaki think about this, he might have a different view. Maybe he should go out and ask them whether they want overseas investment. Oh no, that would be getting too close to the coalface. The Minister is shaking his head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill will get through, because the good old boys of politics in this country, National and Labour, will combine. They will put up a sign saying that this country is for sale and going cheaply, and that buyers should come and talk to Michael Cullen and John Key. New Zealand First opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022209807154e0b461fb8cff91c77224af2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Green Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d70288854b5249848e5c2754cdd48e37\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Overseas Investment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Green Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4638539ac434798a9023432d4929bf6\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022463ee4d290d54d1ba3a90b0baa2902a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022463ee4d290d54d1ba3a90b0baa2902a2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Overseas Investment Bill that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ddfe8da3a6646909e6b7010a78cdd88\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002239a411350b014b2ab981e8e3c2e55e02\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00222ba8134a6d45457c8e1191acd9258da4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ba8134a6d45457c8e1191acd9258da4\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E We are up to the interesting bit now, the Committee stage debate on the Overseas Investment Bill. We know from the speeches on the second reading where the divisions in Parliament on this bill lie. I want to make particular reference to clause 4, \u201COverview\u201D. Clause 4(1)(b)(i) talks about subpart 1 of Part 2. At the Finance and Expenditure Committee David Parker, on behalf of the Labour Government, inserted into this subparagraph the words\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2c7d555fb2e4eb3b973c63a134daada\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt my colleague, but in the time since we have started this debate the Minister has not been in the chair. He has just returned to it now. I ask that we get some kind of discipline around Ministers\u2019 seating arrangements while we are in Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240a44ccaef254aa788abbc909955d5d3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. The Minister will stay in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229069e0cbd7174a7593933607cb65318f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Sadly, that is the position the Minister feels he will be in regarding the position of Minister of Finance as well\u2014a chair was so close to him, but in a few months\u2019 time the opportunity will be gone, and never will he manage to position his bottom on the Minister of Finance\u2019s chair. What a tragedy. Let me go back\u2014[Interruption] Well, it will be anyone\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad81a66fa8e4882ae47504e7d4477b9\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think he will get the job? Don Brash will give that away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efbb78a2779b4f1e95c0570ba87b9996\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: If he does and it is for the good of the country, I shall welcome and support the incumbent person. I shall support that decision fully, because the National Party believes in what is good for the country, not what is good for Labour. That is why Darren Hughes will be so firmly rejected when the election takes place. But let me digress no more; I will go back to the Overseas Investment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the addition to subpart 1 of Part 2 in clause 4(1)(b)(i) that was imposed by David Parker, on behalf of the Labour Government, during the select committee process. The additional words state that subpart 1: \u201Cimposes a statutory marginal strip condition for certain overseas investments in sensitive land:\u201D. That clause originally included the words, following on from those I have just quoted, \u201Cfor adequate and fair compensation\u201D. The National Party would have supported that\u2014[Interruption] Well, we would have discussed those words\u2014\u201Cfor adequate and fair compensation\u201D. I suspect that the National Party finance spokesperson may have had some concerns about the costs of that compensation. But putting that to one side, we would have supported the inclusion of the words \u201Cfor adequate and fair compensation\u201D. Those words were not added. One is left with the feeling that that clause is nothing short of a grab of a property right\u2014nothing short of the view of a Government that cannot quite differentiate between\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022455fe57ea77242cfa9272b3e4ec72f4b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just clarify that we are talking about Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247bd29218344444f924cab8f9368b719\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely\u2014Part 1, clause 4(1). Madam Chair, were you not listening to my speech intently? I think it is one of the better ones I have delivered in Parliament so far\u2014and Mr Cunliffe is nodding his head. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ELet me go back to clause 4(1)(b)(i), which talks about imposing a statutory marginal strip condition for certain overseas investments in sensitive land. [Interruption] Yes, that is right. We know that because the words \u201Cfor fair and reasonable compensation\u201D were not added, this measure will fail. Unlike the Labour Government we understand property rights. We understand the definition as being that if something one owns in one\u2019s own name is taken from one\u2014\u201Cinvoluntarily acquired\u201D is the term\u2014there must be compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EClearly, the Labour caucus voted for the wording that is in the bill. I understand Mr Parker\u2019s reasons for doing so. He had some local reasons. He is under a lot of pressure in his seat of Otago. I understand that. I have been down there. I got the same reaction in Otago as I got when I was in Otaki the other day. In Otaki I asked what people thought of the local member, Darren Hughes, and they had never heard of the bloke. That is how they put it: \u201CNever heard of the bloke.\u201D I asked whether he was the guy cleaning out the back of the chicken farm that I was visiting, and they said: \u201CNo, I don\u2019t think so; I think he\u2019s in Wellington.\u201D I got the same sort of reaction in Otago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI understand that we are in a political environment and that Mr Parker has a lot of high-country stations in his electorate. [Interruption] Yes, he has to get it pumped up in the Otago Daily Times that up here in Wellington he is not just sipping lattes served by Deborah Coddington; he has to do something when he is up here. So sure enough, he thought that if he put this provision in the bill it would be really popular. I guess it would not be popular with those who are selling, but it would be popular with some, anyway. That is why Mr Parker did it. We saw the true colours of the Labour Government, which really does not believe in anyone\u2019s property rights or anyone\u2019s ability to earn anything in his or her own name, when Labour members happily followed the Pied Piper, Mr Parker, and voted for the inclusion of that provision. That was fair enough, except that when they came to Parliament they could not get even the Greens to agree with it. That is how sad it was. [Interruption] My friend Mr Donald is looking across and saying \u201Cmaybe\u201D. The Government is in an unbelievable situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002294531a00237242958b76cfbd9f07e834\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294531a00237242958b76cfbd9f07e834\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E The reason we cannot get support to pass this rather moderate provision relating to the compulsory creation of marginal strips as a precondition of the sale of rural land to foreign people is that New Zealand First and the Greens oppose it, because they favour a total ban on the sale of rural land to foreigners. So it is not because they disagree with our more limited position that they oppose this provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI say to the member who just spoke that Labour does oppose confiscation of property rights without compensation, but the point here is what the property right is. Does a property right in rural land in New Zealand include the unrestricted right to sell to an overseas person? Is it wrong in law for the Government to say that it will not allow rural land adjacent to the foreshore, a river, or a lake to be sold to an overseas person unless a marginal strip is reserved? It is not. Until 1995 the Land Settlement Promotion and Land Acquisition Act made it absolutely clear that there was an almost total prohibition on the sale of rural land to foreigners\u2014sale of land was not merely subject to a condition about marginal strips; it was totally prohibited. Against that background it is wrong to suggest that a private property right includes the unrestricted right to sell overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMr Key is saying that the public\u2019s right to control, through the Government, the sale of land to overseas persons and to control access to our waterways ought to be transferred from the public to the private. At the moment the position at law is quite clear, given our history, that private property rights do not include the unrestricted right to sell rural land to overseas people. The argument John Key, the National Party, and ACT put to the contrary is wrong in principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThey are asking the wrong question. They say it is wrong to confiscate a property right. We agree. But the question is what property right is being confiscated here. If a property right in rural land has not historically in New Zealand included the right to sell to overseas people, giving people the right to sell to overseas people subject to a precondition of laying off a marginal strip is not confiscating anything. No one is forced to sell to an overseas person. If a person wants to have the privilege of doing so, it is within the jurisdiction of this Parliament to say, quite properly, that as a precondition to that permission we will reserve a marginal strip. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI make one final point. It is absolutely inconsistent to say that one can control public rights of access across the foreshore vis-\u00E0-vis M\u0101ori claims to interest in the foreshore, and then, within 1 year, come to Parliament and say: \u201CNotwithstanding our high and mighty principles on the foreshore, we will have a different rule when it comes to New Zealanders selling to overseas people.\u201D There is a word for that, which I am not allowed to use in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe cannot get those provisions through. We have other good improvements in the bill relating to controls on sales to overseas people, which will go a long way to achieving a similar outcome, but it is very important that the underlying principle here be unpicked a little. When people say that private property rights should not be confiscated, they are right, but people need to take great care in what they define as the private property right. If people do not take care, they are, in effect, changing current baselines to privatise what are existing public rights. To do that, in a world of globalisation and of concentrations of wealth in certain parts of our world, is to threaten the birthrights of New Zealanders to access waterways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022290b4c9b198245b89ca5332a887d90a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022290b4c9b198245b89ca5332a887d90a7\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I did not want to interrupt the member, particularly because I agreed with most of what he was saying, but I suggest that we follow a logical sequence here. Part 1 does not have any reference to the marginal strips, as far as I can see. If we can get Part 1 out of the way\u2014because it is a relatively small part, and I intend to take only one call\u2014then we can have a much more wide-ranging debate on Part 2, where marginal strips are very much part of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab5e9035fd4a4f7db6520cf607c927ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab5e9035fd4a4f7db6520cf607c927ae\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 4(1)(b)(i) speaks of imposing \u201Cstatutory marginal strip condition for certain overseas investments in sensitive land:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a0efbc5c5c4f00a64d56abbaf3a392\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The Supplementary Order Paper refers to it, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c439171e247f49ddbfb284c4a197cbc0\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Supplementary Order Paper removes that provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf49e874f104281ab09fb745247c7b6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is where I did get confused before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e22c5dec7d2b463a84edbe3f7ffb954e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e22c5dec7d2b463a84edbe3f7ffb954e\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E That was a great speech from \u201CMichel Foucault\u201D! The member said that property rights are whatever one decides they are, and whatever anyone wants them to be. He is from the party that says: \u201CWe\u2019ve got principles; what principles do you want to have today?\u201D, as they dive into their bag of all sorts of different principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EProperty rights are absolute. They are not whatever one wants them to be. When that member goes on about people who have a property right not having the right to sell it to an overseas person, that is absolute emotional claptrap, because a property right means that a person has the right to sell a property to whomever he or she wants. I remind the member to read his history. Anyone who has read history might be aware of the Australian historian Geoffrey Blainey, who wrote that in 1900 New Zealand had the highest standard of living in the world and had no restrictions on foreign investment. So David Parker is absolutely wrong when he goes on about what constitutes a property right, and about the fact that it does not include the right to sell to whomever one needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EForeign investors should be subject to the same rules as New Zealand investors. If those rules are wrong or they are being broken, we need to look at them and ensure that everybody obeys them, rather than tweaking them around to come up with all sorts of different definitions of what a sensitive asset is and who should be buying what. The member for New Zealand First who spoke before was going on about ACT and the National Party wanting to sell the whole of New Zealand to anybody who comes through the door. That is also a total misrepresentation of the truth. When has anybody said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd59513ec404b82be5cbdbc84988fff\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: We didn\u2019t say that, did we? We were talking about lattes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebeb7e657b6b434f96a8444597b04ec3\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am talking about New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThere are restrictions on anybody purchasing land in New Zealand. For a start, one has to have the money to do so, or the guarantee of the money from whoever is lending it. There are all sorts of laws and restrictions relating to the sale and purchase of land. The Minister of Finance, Dr Cullen, implied that legislation like this is necessary because New Zealanders have been led to believe, through reading advertisements in an airline magazine for the sale of Poronui Station, that the purchaser would have the right to the waterways. If we passed legislation every time some real estate agent came up with an over-hyped description of a piece of land or property that was for sale, we would never get out of this place. I am still looking for a piece of Tuscany in Avondale. Are we going to pass laws saying that no New Zealanders should be led to believe that they will be able to buy a piece of land in Avondale? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI come back also to the issue of overseas investment in significant business assets. Craig McNair dealt with that before when he talked about the fact that we should restrict investment in New Zealand businesses to New Zealanders because they are the only investors of good character. I remind that member of the wine-box inquiry, which was brought into the House by his leader. Not one overseas company was involved in the wine-box inquiry, and I wonder why that was. Well, it is usually because people or companies that invest in a company, a business, or a corporation in another country are usually\u2014I am not saying always, but in the majority of cases\u2014good corporate citizens. The mere fact that they are putting their money where their mouths are means that they will look at obeying the laws. That is what I mean when I say that if people do not obey the laws, no matter who they are\u2014whether they are foreigners or New Zealanders\u2014that is when we should deal with it. We should not deal with it on the basis of the country where they live. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI come back to the principle of property rights. It is all very well for Dr Michael Cullen to sneer at principles and to say that just because I, personally, am not coming back to Parliament I can afford to be fast and loose with principles. The ACT party is the one party\u2014apart from the National Party\u2014that is standing on principles and is debating this bill on the basis of principles. It comes back to the basic principle, which I repeat to David Parker, of whose land it is. Whose land is being sold here? What gives that member, just because he has been elected to Parliament, the right to breach property rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022276adef96b684d2dab233ecd8f4e4f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022276adef96b684d2dab233ecd8f4e4f9e\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak on Part 1 because of the issue that was raised by the Labour Government when it inserted clause 4(1)(b)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e03956fa334290abd21c73e42b842b\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is termed the \u201Csteal clause\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e634ae342234ef687bbe0b19fb59c9c\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: The member on this side of the House terms it the \u201Csteal clause\u201D. This Government had a bill that allowed for the blatant flogging of New Zealand ownership to overseas interests. Only a few months out from an election, all of a sudden, Government members looked at themselves and said: \u201COh my goodness! We have to do something that makes it look like we are being tough on foreign investors.\u201D That is what they did; they sat around a table late at night thinking they had to do something about that in order to give people the impression that they were trying to be tough on foreign investors. That is what they did, because they knew the sentiment out in the community. They knew that an overwhelming number of people gave submissions to the select committee in opposition to the bill. They knew the public sentiment on this bill, so they thought they had to do something. They got their spin machine together, they flew Mr Parker up from Otago early on a Monday\u2014instead of having him come in on an early flight on Tuesday\u2014they racked their brains, and they thought of a way to spin some sort of explanation to the public to make it look like they were working in the best interests of the people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E Some people could call that clause the \u201CDavid Parker amendment\u201D. I was going to call it the \u201Csmokescreen amendment\u201D. Or it could be called the \u201Cblatant electioneering clause\u201D, as well. The Government wanted to pop in an amendment that, basically, would allow foreigners to buy whatever they wanted but, after they had done that, it would take away their riparian rights. The Government would get rid of those rights if it wanted to, in certain circumstances. Basically, this is a poll-driven Government and if it thinks that the polls are telling it that people are not so approving of what it is doing, then\u2014nothing to do with conviction or anything\u2014it will act purely on the polls. Its decision would be based on that alone. I think it is quite disgraceful that the Government has come out with an amendment that, as I said, is such a blatant electioneering clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EThe Government has no conviction or passion about it. Labour has turned away from its principles. It signed up to the petition that went up and down New Zealand many years ago to stop foreign ownership of land, and then it went totally against its principles, which was proved by its $10 billion worth of sales of State-owned assets from 1984 to 1990. Allowing for inflation and the amount of assets those State-owned enterprises owned at the time, they would be worth billions of dollars to the economy now. We have $10 billion a year going out of the country now, just because of foreign ownership, and this Government has allowed that to happen. The Government is obviously not concerned about it, because it is letting it happen; it is continuing that kind of regime. It just does not give a stuff! But the Government expects us and the people of New Zealand to believe that it is trying to do something about the foreign ownership issue by popping in a clause like that, by flying David Parker up from Otago on a Monday, and by getting its spin machine together to spin out a bunch of lies to the public. That is what the Government is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00220e8f08ffeb5f47dbbb2be2a394c580c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e8f08ffeb5f47dbbb2be2a394c580c0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I am reluctant to take a call, but I will take one quickly just to point out some of the inconsistencies in the submission by the previous speaker. He said that this Government lacks principle by bringing in a range of measures that provide some protection for sensitive land that is sought to be held by foreign investors. Well, that is a bit rich, because there is no lack of principle there. This Government has taken a very sensible, moderate, and balanced position, on the one hand screening negative investment in sensitive and iconic land\u2014and the Finance and Expenditure Committee has further developed the screening factors that will allow that\u2014and on the other hand encouraging foreign investment and lowering compliance costs in areas where that is clearly in the net national interest to do so. That is the appropriate balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ETalk about a lack of principle\u2014that member is from a party that when it gets out on the hustings rails against foreign investment and the country being flogged off overseas. Then its members come into this Committee and fail to support a sensible, moderate amendment by my colleague that would protect an iconic space around riverbeds and marginal strips. Well, they cannot have it both ways. Are they the defenders of the little guy, or are they what they proved themselves to be last time\u2014God forbid it happen again\u2014they ever got near the Treasury benches: \u201C\u2026 full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u00229169c62918ee44bc875ede232a092124\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229169c62918ee44bc875ede232a092124\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E That was rather an abrupt end to that speech, but it was because, I think, David Cunliffe, the Minister in the chair, had run out of anything to say. It is very hard to defend this legislation, particularly because it is a con job, as I said in my second reading speech. It is a con job in a number of respects, and I would like to focus particularly on the purpose clause to emphasise my point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EClause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D, is very cuddly-feely. It talks about it being \u201Ca privilege for overseas persons to own or control sensitive New Zealand assets\u201D. It then states that that privilege will be acknowledged by requiring overseas investments in those assets to meet criteria for consent and by imposing conditions on consent. Then we have to go to the small print to see that while the purpose talks about assets, the only real test will apply to sensitive land. There are b-all tests on anyone buying businesses, other than a good character test, so there is no expectation that a business buy-up will do anything other than tell us whether the person is supposedly of good character, and there have been numerous examples of business buy-ups where the foreign purchaser has not been of good character. So, as I said in my second reading speech, if the Government is serious about overseas persons owning or controlling our sensitive assets being a privilege, then it should give some teeth to that purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIt has not; therefore the Green Party will endeavour to do what the Government has failed to do, and will propose some amendments to the purpose clause. We will leave what is there as it stands, because it goes part-way, but we believe that it needs to be strengthened by making clear that any ownership or control must be in the national interest for the long-term benefits of New Zealanders. I ask the Government whether that is too much to expect of foreign investment legislation. If the Government does not support our amendment, then in effect it is saying that it is happy for foreign investment not to be in our long-term interest and not to be for the benefit of New Zealanders. That is an indictment on a Labour Government. It is what one would expect of National if that party were in Government. Of course, when National was in Government, it did make it very easy for foreign investors to gobble up a lot of our strategic assets, particularly State-owned assets. But for Labour to make that even easier, under the smokescreen of saying that it is a privilege for overseas persons to own or control our sensitive assets, is an indictment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThe Government, of course, is doing this because it has an agenda, and the agenda is very clear. The Government would dearly love a free-trade agreement with the United States of America, and we know full well that it is high on the US shopping list that any restrictions on overseas investments be reduced or eliminated. The Government has locked itself into the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS), and I have to ask it whether it is just a coincidence that one of the major demands from our trading partners during the current GATS round is for New Zealand to scrap the Overseas Investment Commission. Clearly, the Labour Government has done the bidding of our neighbours overseas\u2014to the disadvantage of our own citizens\u2014because the Government is scrapping the Overseas Investment Commission and transferring it to Land Information New Zealand. It will be even easier for foreign firms and individuals to buy up our land, our buildings, and our businesses, and Labour is therefore doing exactly what those Governments representing multinational corporations that already own a fair chunk of New Zealand want it to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ESo our other amendments to this part will tighten up the scrutiny on foreign investors by reducing the threshold from 25 percent ownership to 10 percent ownership. That actually brings us into line with the IMF, the OECD, and the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development in using 10 percent as a criterion for the standard international definition of foreign ownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022b122e38cc2114692b86a3a4d4d1770d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b122e38cc2114692b86a3a4d4d1770d2\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e85a692fc5f4438da0a031ba37622b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e85a692fc5f4438da0a031ba37622b8e\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E When I took a call in the debate on the first reading of this bill, I said that the National Party has no problem with the concept of foreigners pouring their hard-earned cash into New Zealand, subject to certain rules of engagement. I went on to say that everyone wins: overseas investors get to live in Godzone, and we get money for education and infrastructure. That is how citizens of New Zealand get to grow their wealth, and that is the contribution that foreign capital makes to our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI was very much of that opinion when I came down to the House to talk on the second reading of this bill until I struck the \u201CMugabe clause\u201D\u2014the \u201CParker Pimpernel clause\u201D. That is the clause that says\u2014and this is from a rural member, the member for Otago\u2014it is OK to take people\u2019s private property rights, and it is OK to take the best part of their land and annex it without even offering compensation. The man\u2019s true socialist agenda came pouring out and he is wearing it on his sleeve. He wonders why he will not be coming back to the House after the next election. Bye-bye, Mr Parker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EWe should not be surprised that this is the type of thing the Government is doing. The same Government that is promoting this legislation is suggesting that the public can roam at will across private property. When Michael Cullen was on his feet, he slapped a sneaky little left jab into my colleague Nick Smith\u2014below the belt, as is Michael Cullen\u2019s way\u2014by suggesting that this is the type of nonsense that the National Party would support. What he conveniently overlooked is that this is a Government bill sponsored by Michael Cullen, and this sneaky, nasty little clause is in the name of David Parker, the soon to be former member of Parliament for Otago. But we should not be surprised because this is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022806e4a5656114e71838c69456f813491\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Jacqui Dean is coming here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc035c27f7e4491b3c8e5562cc7fc4a\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Jacqui Dean is coming. I know her. She is working hard and knocking on a lot of doors in Otago, and she will be here very soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EBut we should not be surprised that this Government would embark on this type of rhetoric. I was at a public meeting in Timaru where the Minister of Agriculture\u2014a Minister of the Crown\u2014got up and, in a public forum, said that the annexing of private property can be justified in the public good. That is the sort of thing one would expect to hear from the leaders of some Central African countries. But to hear it from someone in the New Zealand Government who represents the Crown is simply unsatisfactory and not acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIt is all right for people like Mr Parker to say: \u201CThis land is everyone\u2019s. We\u2019ll put a value to it. No one\u2019s going to miss it.\u201D, but that is the worst type of interference in the property market that I can think of. The member from the ACT party, I thought, made this point particularly well. Why is it that we have been seduced by minority groups into thinking that foreign ownership of our land means that New Zealanders will not be able to enjoy it? The facts do not stack up. Of the land that has been sold in the high country around mid-Canterbury, six of the 11 stations sold in the last 2 years went to New Zealand interests. So much for the argument that they have been priced out of the hands of Kiwis. Fifty percent of those that were resold over the last 10 years went to New Zealand interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMichael Cullen himself stood in the Chamber a few minutes ago and said: \u201CYou can\u2019t take the land with you.\u201D That is right. One cannot. It is always going to stay here. Yet that same Minister is sponsoring a bill that says it is OK to steal other people\u2019s property. That is simply unacceptable. The great shame of all this is that rather than attract capital to New Zealand, we are now getting ourselves into a situation where potential investors are starting to become gun-shy. Instead of welcoming those people and instead of using their capital, we are losing that opportunity. I can think of an example in mid-Canterbury where a five-star beef block\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6dd370033db4397b2fb66b10592b7e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6dd370033db4397b2fb66b10592b7e1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022997b184fe4064cd180cc08156268958e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022997b184fe4064cd180cc08156268958e\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate having a few more minutes to speak, as I had not even got on to supporting my good colleague David Parker on his excellent initiative. But before I go there, I want to finish talking about the amendments to the purpose clause that I have proposed on behalf of the Green Party, and I am pleased to see that the Minister of Finance is with us to hear those. One of our fundamental concerns with the legislation as it stands is the extent of influence that the Minister has through his letter of direction to the Overseas Investment Commission. Although I have made considerable criticisms of the secretary of the commission in terms of how he has acted, I recognise that the ministerial directive has pretty much determined how the commission operates. That has basically been\u2014without quoting the letter in full\u2014to facilitate overseas investment. The scrutiny function has very much taken a second-class position; the thrust has been to making it even easier for foreign investors to buy up our land, our businesses, and our buildings, and we need some balance to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EHence the amendment we are putting up to the purpose clause that public participation in decisions around overseas investment will be encouraged. I believe it is vital that the people of New Zealand have a say in whether overseas investments are appropriate, rather than the regulatory authority simply carrying out the wishes of the Minister of the time\u2014although given that the Minister is usually Labour or National, there is very little difference between them in terms of their determination to make it even easier for foreign buy-ups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI say this not only as a citizen but also with the benefit of information from Mark Dunlop, who made a submission to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I think he was very brave to do so, as a former member of the Overseas Investment Commission staff. He said in his submission that the bill is fundamentally flawed and that it does not provide the framework, including supporting structures and safeguards, necessary to facilitate or ensure only positive and high-quality overseas investment that is beneficial to New Zealanders. He goes on to talk about the role of the regulator, and said that it is simply unacceptable that the same body can act as both a compliance and enforcement agency and an advisory and facilitative one. On the one hand, the commission is trying to encourage overseas investment, as per the directive letter; on the other hand, it is meant to be trying to ensure that compliance is maintained. Hence our amendment, and hence our criticism of the commission\u2019s job now being handed over to Land Information New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI finish my call by saying that I thought it was an excellent move on the part of David Parker to use this legislation to enable statutory marginal strips to be created when a foreign investor buys up land that adjoins our foreshore, our significant lakes, and our significant rivers. It is a great step forward for public access in New Zealand. It recognises that the lakes, the rivers, and the foreshore are public, should be open space, and, therefore, should be accessible. I am extremely disappointed that some parties in this House that I thought supported public access and the ability for people who enjoy the great outdoors to get access to that public space are now voting against this provision simply because there is no provision for compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThere is no provision for compensation when a subdivision takes place, either. Will United Future now be demanding that landowners be compensated when they proceed with a subdivision? I hope not. I hope that they will see sense. I hope that the outdoor recreation lobby and its party actually get some benefit from having its name attached to United Future, and I hope that United Future will change its position on these amendments\u2014that it will not force the Government to move its Supplementary Order Paper and backtrack on what would have been a great step forward for New Zealand and for New Zealanders, especially those who enjoy the great outdoors. I am very sorry to see Dr Cullen have to back down on these provisions. They were successfully negotiated by the Labour member for Otago in the best interests of not only his constituents but also people throughout New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d997c25d6e07413bb278450be6a027cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d997c25d6e07413bb278450be6a027cd\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220618da208ec44a78b431c64f62956a69\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; Green Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000566\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 3 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000567\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause, and substitute the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000568\u0022\u003E3\tPurpose\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000569\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this Act is to acknowledge that:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000570\u0022\u003E(a)\tIt is a privilege for overseas persons to own or control sensitive New Zealand assets by\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000571\u0022\u003E(i)\trequiring overseas investments in those assets, before being made, to meet criteria for consent; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000572\u0022\u003E(ii)\timposing conditions on those overseas investments.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000573\u0022\u003E(b)\tAny ownership or control must be in the national interest for the long term benefit of New Zealanders.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000574\u0022\u003E(c)\tPublic participation in decisions about overseas investment will be encouraged.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224efdaa33282b469f9d46294eb4bbe817\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 92\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000575\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 6 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000576\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) the expression \u201C25\u201D in both places where it occurs, and substitute the expression \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022103a7e7d3f3741beb672104e02d84dad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 105\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000577\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 6 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000578\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (4) the expression \u201C25\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000579\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f90193ac1a744fd9ad4effc57fbb759\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Rod Donald\u2019s amendments to clause 6, to omit and substitute an expression in paragraphs (a), (b), and (c) of subclause (4), are now out of order, as they are inconsistent with a previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 6 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the expression \u201C25\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea9377d4a8d42bdb8affc60e0e33dec\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendments to clause 6 in the name of Rod Donald, to omit and substitute an expression in paragraphs (b) and (c) of subclause (5), are out of order, as they are inconsistent with a previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 7 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) the expression \u201C25\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edf62e7f411a4096a2f704abb5ab161b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendments to clause 7 in the name of Rod Donald, to omit and substitute an expression where it occurs several times in subclause (2), are out of order, as they are inconsistent with a previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to Part 1, and the following amendment in his name to clause 6, be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) the definition of computer register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a1dcd43434864958869fd7127be11829\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 5; Green Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226d0e27ec055c4c6c9d218cdbb791963d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 26\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; Green Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a5e6773e67d420d9ae4dd5207038296\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consent and conditions regime\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022b091eae7b8a4427c883c446923393faf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b091eae7b8a4427c883c446923393faf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate on Part 2, clauses 10 to 79, includes debate on schedules 1 and 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00220973971c460b400cbe8523916214da90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220973971c460b400cbe8523916214da90\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I hope that you will be very generous about accepting many calls, because Part 2 is basically the bulk of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I would like to raise some questions for the Minister in the chair, Michael Cullen, to answer, because I really, really want to get some assurances from him. As I pointed out in my second reading speech, a lot of the resentment and negative public perception towards overseas investors, particularly those purchasing buildings or investing in business, is a result of some high-profile cases. There was some disproportionately bad publicity about some company that was supposed to move in and start mining or carry out some other operation and, after many years, nothing came of it. Officials came before the Finance and Expenditure Committee and said their hands were tied, because the previous enforcement monitoring regime did not provide enough tools for them to be able to carry out their task. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EPart 2, Subpart 4, \u201CMonitoring\u201D, talks about the role of the regulator. The select committee, as a whole, was quite concerned about the wording and the use of \u201Cmay\u201D, as in clause 39, \u201CRegulator may require consent holder to provide information for monitoring purposes\u201D and clause 40, \u201CRegulator may require any person to provide information for statistical or monitoring purposes\u201D. I would like the Minister to take a call and explain to us whether it is really true in the past that the regulator found it difficult to obtain information, or to actually monitor, or to just pick up the phone to see why some of those investors\u2019 plans had lapsed or whether the conditions had changed and what the reasons were. I think that created a lot of negative perceptions for the public, which has not been helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister can assure us that the word \u201Cmay\u201D in the legislation will be interpreted as an encouragement now that the regulator will be placed under Land Information New Zealand, and that he or she will carry out the monitoring and enforcements, that will relieve a lot of the negative perception towards overseas investors. In some cases the failure to fulfil the original conditions could be beyond the investors\u2019 capabilities or circumstances could have changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe select committee also requested that there be action on additional information and activities, such as starting the collation of statistical information and the release of that for the public. Sometimes it is a fact that when information is not available people tend to have suspicions about what is happening. If information is available for public inspection, that would be helpful for the public perception towards overseas investors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EOf course the other thing I noticed was that 10 pages have been struck out of the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d82bb4adaab4ff1b146c3c1ad7b16e6\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201CMugabe clause\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3dec7503b44e8a86b0c9ed99a116ac\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague, the very, very learned, hard-working and robust representative for Ashburton, says it is the \u201CMugabe clause\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ad9611868b44e3adaf570f67da5007\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Some people here have had relatives murdered by the Mugabe regime. That is true. I take offence at having a clause that is being associated with that despotic regime, and would ask that you bring the member to order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228411e74edcdc47c09c92b1f4ded5ed4a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member withdraw reference to that, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022582995c7ce034d91872b3104ab0c612a\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. Suddenly this bill will become a lot skinnier. Ten pages of it will be struck out. They relate to clause 21, which is entirely the effort of the member for Otago, David Parker, who is soon to be replaced by National\u2019s Jacqui Dean. He put in 10 pages of legislation to create marginal strips without compensation. I could not believe it. The member explained this to us in the select committee. He said that it did not matter and would not affect the value of the property just because a marginal strip had been created. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThat is very, very strange, and I think the member might like to take a few calls. He seemed to be quite anxious to explain this himself, and I invite him to do so. This is the Committee stage, and all members are invited to explain and defend their position. So I invite the member to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002261c18eb144ff4f79b3a084711924ca1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c18eb144ff4f79b3a084711924ca1f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The provisions relating to the marginal strip, of course, will be removed by Supplementary Order Paper. That is the condition of United Future\u2019s support for the bill. It also enables the National Party to vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBut I have to say I think Pansy Wong should not push her luck too far in terms of her moral outrage on the provisions that the Finance and Expenditure Committee put in. First, she voted for Nick Smith\u2019s member\u2019s bill, which did exactly the same thing, and that was only last year; and, second, the current provision for a marginal strip after subdivision on coastal property was put in place in 1991, under the previous National Government. So Ms Wong\u2019s \u201Cshock-horror\u201D reaction lacks a certain amount of \u201Cprobe\u201D at the end of it, I think one could say! Her whispering in Brian Connell\u2019s ear is not going to help the matter in that respect; it will just confuse him, I think, more than he is already confused on most of these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe substantive issue that she raises is important. It is fair to say that under the current legislation the Overseas Investment Commission has insufficient capacity to follow up in terms of monitoring, but, more important, the current Act, which this legislation completely replaces, is quite inadequate in terms of the penalties and enforcement regime. This legislation will provide for a much more effective penalties and enforcement regime, should a purchaser fail to fulfil the conditions of consent. At the moment, what one ends up doing is forcing such purchasers to sell. That is actually at the extreme end of the spectrum in terms of the appropriate solution that ought to be followed through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAlthough I think that has been part of the cause of public concern, I think there are wider issues of public concern. There is a widely held belief, which is not actually true, that foreign purchase leads to greater restriction on access over and through property. For some peculiar reason people think foreign purchase means land is not subject to other laws around planning, etc., and is outside the New Zealand legal framework. That is completely untrue. I am always opposed to any move to import into this legislation attempts to impose regulatory procedures, if one likes, in terms of planning, etc. What we are doing, quite consciously, in this bill is providing mechanisms whereby, as part of the consideration, we can take into account national-interest considerations around access, conservation, etc., and we have already begun to do some of that. The Young Nick\u2019s Head agreement was exactly one of those. The Shania Twain agreement was another one of those kinds of agreements. We were able to get public gains, in terms of access, in terms of conservation, and in terms of historical protection, which could not have presented themselves if the sale had occurred to a New Zealand citizen or to a New Zealand resident person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI think we are engaged in an important balancing act. Naturally enough, my colleague from Otago is concerned about the proportion of high-country land in the Queenstown Lakes District that is owned by overseas owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c54752dace1444c9e952d88177196ae\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Quite high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a60b3d4bc7642498a4047f91107c403\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is quite high. Even the member for Rakaia, when he raised the issue, told us that 50 percent of land transferred in mid-Canterbury was transferred to foreign ownership. But there is actually quite a high\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f935fb938bc45ebba4ebca20f0e1c9d\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. If the Minister is going to refer to what I said, at least I expect it to be reported accurately. I said that 50 percent of the land that had been resold went back into New Zealanders\u2019 hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272b4116e42e04ea99ae25cd4f4b0cab3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. It is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a1f1329d426474192c8a0ec81c7bc4a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If I could be more precise, the figure was slightly less than 50 percent. The member said that of the 11 properties sold, six were bought by New Zealanders, which, by a very simple piece of arithmetic that is not beyond the member, means that five were not. That is pretty close to 50 percent of the total being passed into foreign hands in a relatively brief space of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThere are some countries in the world where that could not happen at all\u2014where foreigners are not allowed to buy land. In Australia, for example, there are still some pretty strange rules about non-Australian citizens buying urban property, and they would apply to some of the most senior chief executives in Australia. I think we have to bear in mind that balance is required in this respect, so that there is public confidence. The fact, I think, that the so-called two tired old parties are combined against the fringe elements in this House on this matter is not one that gives me great cause for concern. It gives me some degree of confidence that probably there is a sustainable consensus that will be reasonably stable moving forward into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6d4faaae5b5430e87ad2261248d9979\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6d4faaae5b5430e87ad2261248d9979\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a call on clauses 21O and 21T of Part 2 of this bill, because I want to make United Future\u2019s position on the matter of marginal strips, etc. very, very clear indeed to the Committee. I do so, firstly, to clarify what the Minister, Dr Michael Cullen, has just advised the Committee, and secondly, to completely rebut and debunk the comments that the co-leader of the Green Party Rod Donald has made to this Committee about our position. It is amazing how other people in other parties think they know more about United Future\u2019s position than we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E I go first to the Minister\u2019s comments. It is not true that United Future asked the Government to remove marginal strips from this bill\u2014we did not. We said to the Government that we could not agree to clause 21T and the provision that no compensation would be payable to any person. My specific suggestion in that regard was that the bill should provide for an appropriate access fee to be paid to the New Zealand land seller. United Future\u2019s position in relation to this matter was very, very clearly set out in the commentary on the bill that came back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which stated: \u201CUnited Future, although supporting the creation of marginal strips next to rivers, lakes, and foreshores, does not agree that private land should be acquired for this purpose without the payment of just compensation. If the creation of such marginal strips is seen to be of value to the people of New Zealand, then the Crown, on behalf of its citizens, is duty bound to pay compensation.\u201D I advise the Committee that the decision to remove marginal strips in their entirety from this bill was the decision of the Government, but one that we acceded to. I think that is a slightly different story from the one given to the Committee by the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI now turn to the Greens\u2019 comments. Clause 21O states that a marginal strip put aside under this legislation is to be put aside until the end of time. It is a permanent alienation of the use and enjoyment of a piece of private land currently owned by a New Zealander. It is State interference in use and enjoyment if it forces people to share something that they may not, necessarily, want to share. Clause 21T then states\u2014and I want to get this very clear, because it is quite obvious to me that Rod Donald has the wrong end of the stick completely\u2014that no compensation will be paid to New Zealanders who own private land if they are selling it to a foreigner. Mr Donald has told the Committee that we think that compensation should be paid to foreign purchasers. Obviously, he has never read a sale and purchase agreement. He has no idea how they work, because that is a ludicrous comment. That has never been our position, and in fact, it is a total misrepresentation of everything we stand for and believe. We are not as stupid as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI shall talk also about our affiliation partner, Outdoor Recreation NZ. I advise the Committee, and particularly Mr Donald, that Outdoor Recreation NZ\u2019s position in regard to access strips in general, which it is strongly in favour of, as is United Future, is that they should not be created at the expense of property rights. That is the point of difference, is it not, between Outdoor Recreation NZ, the common-sense Greens\u2014the practical Greens, the intelligent Greens, the logical Greens\u2014and the party in this House called the Green Party, which masquerades in that colour when, in fact, we all know it is just like a watermelon inside. The Greens are as red as it gets, just like a watermelon. I am not at all surprised that the Greens are quite comfortable with the no-compensation clause. They back it to the hilt. The Green member Mike Ward spoke in this House on my member\u2019s bill. His attitude was this: if he, Mike Ward, personally, or any of the Greens disagreed with what someone was doing on his or her property, they reserve to themselves the right to stop the person from doing it and to force him or her to do something else. That is what Mike Ward of the Greens told the House in respect of my private property bill, and that is the Greens\u2019 attitude. That is outrageous. It will not be tolerated by New Zealanders. Really, when New Zealanders understand that that is the Greens\u2019 agenda, they will make sure that they disappear from Parliament. Such views override the Magna Carta and all the rights we have worked for, over about 1,000 years, in terms of private property. To have those rights overridden by such ridiculous nonsense and sheer arrogance is unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u00221b638efb0cf34b7e8c017ddb9cbb3acf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b638efb0cf34b7e8c017ddb9cbb3acf\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to take a call or two on this part, because it is the substance of the bill. As I said in my second reading speech, I would like to give the Government some credit for some improvements to this part of the bill and to thank the officials for their assistance in achieving those improvements\u2014particularly such things as adding a definition of \u201Cgood character\u201D and so forth. In our view the bill is still remiss and therefore we have put up a number of significant amendments that I would like colleagues in the House to give some serious consideration to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThe first amendment is to clause 10, where it refers to \u201Can overseas investment in significant business assets\u201D. We want to make it very clear that in our view significant business assets should include aquaculture. Aquaculture is an increasing business on our coastline. In fact, it is a business that in our view involves people in businesses being able to make a private profit from an activity conducted on, and in, the public commons. Therefore, the coastal marine environment, in our view, is just as sensitive as the offshore islands, the high country, the lake fronts, and the riverbanks that have particular restrictions placed on them under this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWe believe that aquaculture should be covered by this legislation, and it is not. That is a significant deficiency in the legislation, so we want clause 10 amended to extend to aquaculture. I have proposed that amendment, because this concern was reinforced by the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society in its submission that stated the bill failed to protect public open space in the coastal marine area, and because there was no screening of purchases by overseas persons of their resource consents, or application for resource consent to use the coastal space for aquaculture. We think that it is absolutely vital that any foreign investor who cannot prove that such an investment is in the national interest should be disallowed from investing in applications for coastal permits and associated resource consents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ETherefore, we would like to see this bill include some weighty environmental criteria to ensure that those wanting to use our public commons, our coastal marine space, which is scarce and is sensitive, need to pass a hurdle as least as high as the hurdle that is required of those wanting to buy the high country or an offshore island. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EBut we are well aware why the Government is opposed to that amendment. It is because successive Governments have given away this Parliament\u2019s right to protect our coastal environment. They have given it away through their negotiations on the General Agreement on Trade in Services. Way back in 1994 a National Government basically gave away our power to protect our coastal space, and then the Labour Government made it even worse through the Singapore free-trade agreement, where it basically did not exclude aquaculture from that agreement. Therefore, it is included, and it would be regarded as a breach of that agreement if the current Government, or the current Parliament, were going to protect our coastal marine environment. I think that that is extraordinarily sad, and it is outrageous that one Government has chosen to bind all future Parliaments in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI contrast that with the fact that even what the Government has signed up to with the OECD has at least left the door open by reserving commercial fishing. Commercial fishing could be interpreted as aquaculture, but because of the Singapore closer economic partnership Labour signed up to, I think without due consideration, we are locked into forever in the future allowing more and more of our coastal areas\u2014areas that New Zealanders value as a place to go fishing for themselves, a place to just potter around in their boats\u2014to be taken up by marine farms of one sort or another, to the detriment of our ability to enjoy our great outdoors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E The next amendment we will be putting forward to this part relates to the threshold at which an overseas investment should be scrutinised. As I said during the second reading debate, Jim Bolger in the dead of the night lifted it from $10 million to $50 million, and then this Labour Government reinforced the $50 million threshold in the Singapore closer economic partnership, and they want to multiply it up to $100 million, whereas we want to cut it back to $10 million. I am hoping we will get some support from New Zealand First on that at least, because they supported a figure of $10 million at the select committee review in 2002. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWe also have an amendment that would require all pastoral leases to go through a tenure review process before any of the high country can be sold. That was another recommendation from the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society, which we believe has a lot of merit, and therefore we are putting forward an amendment to achieve that goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EBut the most significant change we want to see in this part, and the one I hope I have the chance to elaborate on, is that we want to see clause 18 applied to significant business assets. Clause 18, as far as it goes, is quite a good clause. It does require somebody wanting to purchase land to demonstrate that he or she will achieve a number of things, such as the creation of new job opportunities, the introduction of new technology and business skills, and an increase in export receipts for New Zealand, and that in the process there will be adequate mechanisms to protect or enhance existing areas of significant indigenous vegetation. I appreciate that the Government has added at my request, on behalf of Fish and Game New Zealand, that exotic species will also be covered, in terms of taking account of, or protecting, or enhancing them in the case of trout, salmon, and gamebirds, but also that public access will be enhanced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EBut these provisions do not apply to business purchases, and that is ridiculous. Why apply them only to land? Why not extend them to significant business assets? So we have put forward amendments that say clause 18 should apply to business buy-ups. It is actually business buy-ups that are having much greater impact on our economy than land purchases by foreign investors. It is not enough that those businesses only have to meet a \u201Cgood character\u201D test. They should have to demonstrate that buying a business is going to lead to more job opportunities, bring new technology to New Zealand, and will look after the environment. We would add by way of an amendment that they should increase domestic substitution of imports into New Zealand to balance the export receipts the Government has put in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely vital that business buy-ups are greenfield investments, not asset stripping, which so many business buy-ups have been in past. Tranz Rail was a classic example of foreign investment leading to this Government having to bail out the rail network in New Zealand because it was stripped of any worth and left in a very dangerous state. So the Government ought to back extending clause 18 to include significant business assets. Without that, this bill has no substance. It is completely gutless. It will not achieve the intent the Government claims it will achieve, and it will certainly not meet the expectations of New Zealanders for tighter scrutiny of applications for foreign investment, let alone scrutiny of their activities when they come to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIt is also remiss of the Government not to have any reference in this part to the Treaty of Waitangi, and we have suggested an amendment to clause 18(2) so that there are adequate mechanisms in place to ensure that any decision is made with reference to the principles of the treaty. We think that the Government should not back off its commitment to the principles of the treaty, and therefore we seek that amendment to this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWe also want to pick up on the submissions that came from many people that any regulatory agency should be keeping a full and correct record of all land, business, and building sales to foreign investors. Something that came through and was, I think, virtually unanimous around the table, was that we do not know the extent of foreign ownership in this country, and even if the scrutiny threshold is higher than zero, the monitoring should be set at a base level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u002281f98495ad414f4fa8e784eefbeebb6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281f98495ad414f4fa8e784eefbeebb6f\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E That is one of the nuttiest proposals I have ever heard. How could the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi be applied to an overseas investor who is seeking to purchase a business in New Zealand? I thought I had heard everything! We have heard a lot of things today. We have heard about assets and about how foreigners are gobbling up New Zealanders\u2019 land. We have heard that the Labour Government has brought in this bill to suck up to the Americans, so that we can have a free-trade agreement. I have heard so much racist and xenophobic claptrap that I am getting to stage where I wonder why any foreign investor would want to come here in the first place. We are very unwelcoming. People in the Green Party think that the Berlin Wall was built to keep the Westerners out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI come back to Part 2, and specifically to clause 18 and the tests that need to be passed before foreign investors can purchase and invest in a business\u2014in particular, in land with assets or important assets. May I just remind the member from New Zealand First that no assets were sold. No State assets have ever been sold in this country. They were all liabilities. If that party is to be consistent in its constant raving about the selling of the New Zealand post offices and Telecom, etc., why does it not put its money where its mouth is? Why does it not buy them all back, take away everybody\u2019s cellphones, put everybody back on a waiting list where they had to wait for 6 months to get a new phone connection, have the New Zealand post office own all sorts of workshops, etc., have $90 million of taxpayers\u2019 money going into it every year, and stop bleating on about the downside of selling to foreign owners things that were liabilities to the taxpayer? One could put up a good argument for the railway, by the way, that it was the New Zealand owners who stripped it and the foreign owners who at least tried to do something with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226537e64f5b754642a57aa49ae15ebfce\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277243bb812694ba3be70587f8319003f\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: I just remind the member of the wine-box inquiry. How many foreign investors were involved in that? Not one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI come back to clause 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a4b5d0b1f474466a63546b77549a83e\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: How many of them gave money to ACT?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acde600fa0b34a8fb49eee0c6fc4b35d\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: None. How can we force people to share? That is what the Green Party says we should do. It says that everybody should share, and it wants to force them to share. We will regret going down this path. What right do we have to force somebody who is purchasing a piece of land to put in walkways? What right do we have to force people to support the registration of historic places, w\u0101hi tapu, or historic areas under the Historic Places Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d23a1a2915c341268dac12347147a6a7\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Demolish the lot, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022101cadd6cd3d4c5a89d9228a53c438f2\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: That member has very little faith in human nature\u2014no faith at all. Why does he think that just because he would demolish the lot, everybody else, every other private landowner in New Zealand, would cut down every piece of bush and destroy every archaeological site? Just because he has the view that he would do so, that is no reason to believe that every landowner in New Zealand will do so. If we have public walkways set aside, and if we allow access for people to go trout fishing and salmon fishing, how long will it be before the Department of Conservation, with its current philosophy of \u201Chumans bad, no humans good\u201D, bars all public access to those areas? I predict that it will not be very long, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIt is bad enough that anybody in New Zealand has to go through the tortured Resource Management Act process to get anything done, without foreign investors having to be subject to all the conditions and tests set out in the bill. And what happens then? We have seen what happens when they do pass the tests. We have seen what happened with regard to Motutapu Station, where the Minister of Finance, Dr Cullen, talked about the agreement the Government was able to get there, with walkways, etc. What have those purchasers got out of that? We can look at the tortured process Elaine Lange, otherwise known as Shania Twain, is going through in order to get her house built, even though she has agreed to put in walkways and register significant sites. We should subject everyone to the same process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022759d400319c4489187fb4da0f4020e10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022759d400319c4489187fb4da0f4020e10\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I have to start by responding to Michael Cullen. He is turning into a sensitive wimp. I do not know what is causing it, but I suspect that the political tide is going out and his true character is emerging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad4a2ddf56a487799611aa3fa899da9\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s brittle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216cddd198306432b97af0cc412084478\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: He is brittle, that is for sure, and it is starting to show. If he is going to quote me, I expect him to do it accurately. What I said was that there had been 11 high-country sales. Six of those had been sold into Kiwi hands, and five had gone to international interests. The five international owners have subsequently turned over those properties. Fifty percent of them\u2014actually, three of them\u2014were sold back into Kiwi hands. My maths are much better than Michael Cullen\u2019s, because I know that that does not add up to 50 percent of the 11 original sales. That probably explains why today the Government announced a monumental cock-up, to the tune of $1 billion, over what are now New Zealand\u2019s carbon liabilities, instead of the $500 million positive position it tried to tell New Zealanders their country would be in when it ratified the Kyoto Protocol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMr Cullen then took a cheap shot at my colleague Pansy Wong, when he said that it was a National Government that drove subdivision legislation. Well, there is a huge difference in driving subdivisions. Subdivisions actually add value, because people want them. Then he took another cheap shot\u2014it was a threat, really\u2014at my colleague Pansy Wong, when he said that she should be very careful with her moral outrage, because of something Nick Smith had done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252bd245c6f044f1e9f8e1a134b87a9b0\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: He tried to intimidate me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c1522fdc4a47be84c8f6160bb8da75\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: He tried to be intimidating. Well, one does not intimidate Pansy Wong as easily as that. In fact, one does not intimidate anyone from the National Party as easily as that. If the Minister is so sensitive, and if he is so sure in regard to the 10 pages of provisions the member for Otago put into the bill that state one can compulsorily take private property from New Zealand citizens without any compensation, then will he please explain why he is moving a Supplementary Order Paper to take them out? Will the Minister take a call and explain that fact? I bet he will not. What he will do is to rage on about Pansy Wong and Nick Smith, take cheap shots, and try to deflect from the fact that it is his bill\u2014a Government bill that he is sponsoring\u2014that proposed the clause in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIt was only when he had to bow to public pressure, because the tide was going out for the Labour Party and the rest of his cronies who are associated with it, that he thought: \u201COops, I\u2019d better try to do something.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EBut for that Supplementary Order Paper, the National Party could not have supported this bill, and that would have been a shame because the essence of overseas ownership of New Zealand lands, subject to reasonable conditions, is something I strongly support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI have to ask where the negative sentiment comes from that says that overseas investment is bad, that it is hurting New Zealand. Overseas investors wanting to invest in New Zealand\u2019s economy is a vote of confidence in our economy. It is not a negative sign. For goodness\u2019 sake, we are now a multicultural society! We cannot build a wall around us to try to keep the rest of the world out. It simply does not work like that. We are all immigrants, starting with Kupe. Let us not forget that fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI am a strong believer that investors coming to New Zealand with their hard-earned cash and wanting to invest here is something we should welcome with open arms. Arguments to the contrary are simply arguments from people with their heads in the sand who hope the world will pass them by. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI can think of some practical examples to share with members of this Committee. I can think of a Japanese investor who bought a farm near the foothills of R\u0101kaia, who spent $600,000 buying it, and who everyone thought was mad\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022945a440fb4464777af715adc0cb0b987\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Craig McNair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00227de08dcc7ac645dda84b9323cb7428e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227de08dcc7ac645dda84b9323cb7428e0\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The point the National Party would like you to clarify is about Mr Connell being obviously interrupted in mid-sentence by the bell. That exact same set of circumstances occurred when Mr Donald was speaking, and the Chair granted him an immediate second call, despite the fact that other members of Parliament were seeking the call. Mr Connell was interrupted in mid-sentence. He sought a second call, but he was not given it. I guess that what members on this side of the Chamber are now asking themselves is this: under what circumstances are second calls being granted, back-to-back, to some parties and not to others?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3d6058e4dd3424ea7c7359582f6cae1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3d6058e4dd3424ea7c7359582f6cae1\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (Junior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First has the utmost faith in your decisions on these matters, Mr Chairman, and would not want to question them, at all. But I presume there is a practice that where there is a spokesperson, he or she is entitled to get a second call. I think it was part of the Standing Orders some time ago that spokespersons were supposed to get a second call, if possible. I am sure that Mr Rod Donald is the spokesperson for the Green Party on this issue, but I do not think Mr Connell is the spokesperson for National on it. In any event, I am sure you are working out the proper apportionments, and New Zealand First has every faith in your decision to give the call to Mr McNair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022431a9fa0172245fd9716054280ecd46e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022431a9fa0172245fd9716054280ecd46e\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps Mr Jones could point to the Standing Orders that state that only spokespersons get back-to-back calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a694f32d213c4bb5a69840a5416ab364\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members for that. It is entirely up to the Chair. Yes, Brian Connell was in mid-sentence. There are quite a few calls to come yet, and I have no doubt the member will get some of those. I tried not to cut him off. Mr Donald was given consecutive calls because he has a great number of amendments. I think it will be fair all round. I did not want National to sneak too far ahead of New Zealand First at this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2ec308c80244491b56b16b9745f700e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2ec308c80244491b56b16b9745f700e\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This afternoon I want to focus on clause 21T, \u201CNo compensation for marginal strip\u201D, and to get my case clear on this issue. Either we let overseas owners have the land or we do not. It does not really matter what side of the argument we are on\u2014whether we are for this bill or against it, whether we are for foreign ownership or against it\u2014at the end of the day what this clause and David Parker\u2019s amendment were about was taking something away from somebody. They are saying: \u201CWe\u2019re going to let you have it, but, once we\u2019ve let you have it, we\u2019re going to take some of it away from you.\u201D We should make up our minds at the beginning. Either we let the person have it or we do not let the person have it. That is the deal, and that always should be the deal. That is the problem New Zealand First had with the clause, and with David Parker\u2019s amendment\u2014the smokescreen amendment. I think it is outrageous that the Government was even considering that clause, and still, to this day, Government members get up and passionately advocate for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EWe all know the reason why the Government is pushing this issue. An election is on its way, in the next 1, 2, or 3 months. Government members looked at each other and said: \u201CWhat are we going to do? We have to do something to make it look like we are the true Labour Party of the old days.\u201D\u2014and by that I mean the Labour Party before 1984; the same Labour Party that went up and down this country, signing a petition pledging that it would\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d11f018ab2d46a1946f5f9db82dcfd8\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Where was that member in 1984?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6afbc9295984471bfe1c1e90a3ae4c3\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Admittedly I was quite young. This is not from memory; this is from learning a bit of political history. The facts are that the Labour Party of old would not have supported this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First says: \u201CMake up your mind. Either let them have it, or not.\u201D New Zealand First says that at the end of the day this bill is wrong, it is fundamentally flawed, and it is not putting New Zealand and New Zealanders first. This bill allows foreign investors to come here, flog off our country\u2019s assets in a huge way, and have no regard for New Zealand and New Zealanders whatsoever. That is what New Zealand First says. There is $12 billion going out of this country every year, because of the dealings of Labour and National in the 1980s and 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EThere is another point on this issue that I want to talk about, before I move on. Who will be next? That is the question I want to ask. Labour Party members put their heads together, thinking that here is a situation whereby they can make it look like they are being tough and looking after New Zealand\u2019s interests, and put in an amendment to say that they will allow foreign investors to buy land in this country, but then they will take some of that land away from them. That is what Labour members did. They put their heads together and said: \u201CLet\u2019s do that.\u201D, and then they said: \u201CWe will push this little part for now, and in the future we will start taking New Zealand - owned land off New Zealanders, once we have got this amendment through.\u201D So who will be next? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003ELabour is very, very disappointed. David Parker was almost devastated by the fact that his amendment could not be rammed through today. He was devastated. Labour has a hidden agenda on many issues, and on this issue those members jacked it up. They thought they had it all ready, set to go, but they were not able to do it. That is why they are devastated\u2014because they have a hidden agenda on this issue. They want Kiwis to be next. They want to start taking Kiwis\u2019 land off them. They want to start initiating the \u201CMugabe clause\u201D right through our legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00222f44cc64214e4a13a944d544d8a1547e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f44cc64214e4a13a944d544d8a1547e\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E When I was speaking previously I was about to share with the Committee the story of a Japanese investor who bought property in the R\u0101kaia Gorge back in the 1990s. He paid $600,000 for a property, and everyone concluded he was absolutely mad. The locals were laughing out of the sides of their mouths. They could not give the land to him quickly enough. They thought they had caught themselves a mug. This investor has subsequently turned that farm into one of the pristine golfing environments in this country. It is now referred to as Terrace Downs. Terrace Downs is favoured by people on the golf circuit as one of the three best golf courses in this country. That investor has gone on to spend $80 million, and his initial investment was $600,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EPeople from Christchurch have invested in Terrace Downs in their droves. The subdivision legislation that was introduced by National, which Dr Cullen took umbrage with, has enabled Christchurch investors to invest in Terrace Downs in their droves. Some of the houses there are outstanding. The landscape is outstanding, and the golf lodge is also on the circuit of \u201Cmust visit\u201D places for people who are holding a function of any sort. The number of tourists who come through Terrace Downs on any given day is contributing huge amounts of capital to the local community, as well as to New Zealand more broadly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EBut\u2014and there is a but\u2014one or two of the holes I can think of go down to the water\u2019s edge. We were told by the member for Otago to accept that that investor, having contributed something like $80 million to this iconic location, should have that value taken from him. He should have that land taken from him, so that people could no longer play the 10th hole on the Terrace Downs golf course. That is what he implied. That is what he was trying to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMichael Cullen can take all the moral high ground he likes. This is a bill that he is sponsoring. But he got the nod from the New Zealand public, to say: \u201CHey, the tide\u2019s on the way out. You had better pull your horns in.\u201D That is what Dr Cullen and David Parker were trying to foist on this House, and on the people of this country specifically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI can think of another example, but before I go there I just want to say that this country needs people like that investor. We need people who are visionary, who are prepared to take risks, and who are prepared to have the courage of their convictions and come to New Zealand and invest. But I fear that a lot of the anti - overseas investor sentiments, which are driving some of the debates I am hearing today, are simply based on racial grounds. We have to accept now that we are a multicultural society and we need people like that to come here and invest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI said I could think of some other examples, and I can. Another example, which also includes Japanese capital, is Five Star Beef Ltd in Ashburton. It houses 18,000 cattle, which are destined for high-value restaurants in Tokyo. That investment has about $30 million of Japanese capital, and without that capital it would not have happened. It would not be sustainable. That beef lot example underpins three local transport companies, underpins the local barley price, supports two freezing works in the district, and employs I do not know how many people, but it runs into hundreds. If we listened to the arguments that have been put forward, those investors would not be welcome in this country, and that is an absolute nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c93de5667a6b42e8a0076cdad6f0e888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c93de5667a6b42e8a0076cdad6f0e888\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak a little further to the substance of the Supplementary Order Paper amendment that withdraws the marginal strips provision. I think it is very important to explain to the Committee that the Supplementary Order Paper amendment will not bring to an end the possibility that marginal strips alongside rivers and lakes will be set aside when a New Zealander decides to sell land adjoining lakes and rivers to non-residents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E I say that because in clause 18, \u201CFactors for assessing benefit of overseas investments in sensitive land\u201D, subclause (2)(ba)(ii) states that one of the things the Minister will do in deciding whether to approve such a sale is to look at \u201Cproviding, protecting, and improving walking access to those habitats\u201D of indigenous vegetation and indigenous fauna. Paragraph (d) of the same subclause states that the Minister will also ensure that adequate mechanisms are in place for walking access over the relevant land, or a relevant part of the land, by the public or any section of the public. Notwithstanding the Supplementary Order Paper amendment, the Minister will still, in deciding whether to approve the sale of sensitive land to an overseas buyer, take into account the whole question of walking access along rivers and lakes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHere is what will happen. If the New Zealand seller decides that he or she can get a better price for the land by selling it to an overseas person, and both the seller and the purchaser know that that is a condition of the sale, then of course the New Zealand owner will agree to allow access. On the other hand, if the overseas buyer would not pay any more than a New Zealand buyer would, then the question will not even arise, and walking access will not be given. In substance, notwithstanding the Supplementary Order Paper amendment, I believe that marginal strips will still be created in the great majority of cases, and it will all be done without breaching the important principle that compensation should be paid when land is confiscated. We have a win-win situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI go back for a moment to a remark that Rod Donald made about the Ruby Bay cliffs. I am very familiar with the situation of the Ruby Bay cliffs. For those who do not know Ruby Bay, it is on Tasman Bay in the province of Nelson. It involves a piece of land known as the Copeland block because it is the place where I was blessed to grow up when I was kid, and a beautiful piece of land it is. That block has now been sold to a family who have built a multimillion-dollar house on the land, and it is now the subject of great controversy. Why is it controversial? It is controversial only to a group of Greens, really. It is controversial because the people who now live there, who are New Zealand residents, were born in California. Guess what they have had the audacity to do? They have cut down a whole lot of Pinus radiata trees that were growing along the top of the cliff. Pinus radiata happens to be a native of California, but this particular Californian family who have come here, who have decided to quit California and want to become Kiwis, are cutting the pine trees down, and are spending thousands of dollars on planting thousands of native plants on those cliffs. There will be indigenous plants on the cliffs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b5b4d014a7746b2bf2cc05b9c887928\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: The cliffs are falling down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226907e3f132dc4c5b9471ba748e9d4f60\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: They will not fall down once the growth starts, I say to the member. When I look at that with any objectivity, I conclude\u2014as any reasonable person has to\u2014that there are two things happening. One of them is xenophobia, because the people happened to be born outside this country, and the other one is just sheer envy. End of story. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022 data-id=\u0022028f7ca0719a490cab248ed8c6c32eb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022028f7ca0719a490cab248ed8c6c32eb6\u0022\u003EMAHARA OKEROA (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002268a2657974f040679a5c2f764870c251\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268a2657974f040679a5c2f764870c251\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take part in the debate on Part 2 of the Overseas Investment Bill. I want to reflect on the issue around the size of companies, and the reasons for which the current threshold for a company to be required to give notice of an intention to acquire a New Zealand company, which is around about $25 million, will be extended up to $100 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221793ce004f564f85b7fc9e6008d05903\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Shocking!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbbbe26ce8bb4f3fb1da73b8606da1d3\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is a wonderful thing. I want to talk about why it would not make sense for acquisitions involving amounts of less than that to be referred to the Overseas Investment Commission. As members will probably be aware, there has not been a situation where the commission has turned down an application from those companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to put a slightly different spin from that of the Green Party on what takes place when foreigners make an acquisition here in New Zealand. In particular, it relates to the criteria and factors that will be considered. They are the issues around job creation, business skills, development of export receipts, market competition, and additional investment and development. I say that because last Friday I met with a group of investors who have invested about $50 million so far in New Zealand, but who have ambitions to invest a further $150 to $200 million over the next 2 to 3 years. It was interesting to talk to them about the role they have been playing in the companies they have been acquiring in New Zealand. It has been a role of quite active management, which is slightly different from the normal venture capital situation, in which a lot of the investors will come along and supply some finance, but essentially leave the status quo in place\u2014the companies concerned are left to get on with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIn fact, the investors I met have done something a lot of commentators have argued is a real benefit of overseas investment. They have come to New Zealand and invested not only their capital but also\u2014maybe this is more important\u2014their time and their contacts in their international networks. In many respects, that is quite similar to the situation that operates domestically in New Zealand with \u201Cangel investors\u201D, who are involved, I guess, more in the infancy of the development of a company. They may not put in very much capital at all, but it is very often the case that they agree to lend their experience, skills, know-how, and knowledge to small companies that are looking to develop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhat was interesting about the investors I met with last Friday was that they told me that, in the case of a number of New Zealand companies that they have bought into with a significant investment, they have managed to double and treble the size of the exports of those companies in a very short space of time\u2014within months of acquisition. Members may ask themselves why it is that a foreigner is able to come to New Zealand and supply something that is more than just capital, which we accept is reasonably freely available here in New Zealand. The answer is that the companies that are being acquired often operate here in New Zealand in a niche area. They are built on the backs of entrepreneurial New Zealanders who have developed some good ideas, technical know-how, and skills. But those people lack the ability to have access to the marketplace, and to other suppliers along the food chain who may buy their products. So what is hugely valuable about those investments is not so much the ability of the company to get access to capital, but its ability to get access to those vertical chains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ENavman New Zealand is quite an interesting example. At one level I was concerned about Navman being sold offshore, because I think it is producing fantastic technology, and I do not want to see that company picked up, relocated to Los Angeles, and lost to New Zealand. The real challenge for New Zealand is to prove that it is an incubator and also a developer of great companies. It has been quite interesting to see that Navman has, at this stage at least, managed to take the foreign capital that has come out of the Brunswick Corporation and develop the company on, by building greater market access and penetration of its goods\u2014by building a world-class company with world-class products on the back of that technical know-how. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b0b8983d27481798bb24d7b3241051\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201ebfcd6ef634dd98b5983545c45a104\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. For those who stand up to speak on this bill and say that foreign investment is bad\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec5d4a9dcd7543328f47cf83a2170450\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Who are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211732e9edd8741ab80a37df4d139c2ae\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Green members, for one, and the New Zealand First members, as well. They do not want a bar of anyone from overseas. They actually forget the other things those people may bring outside of capital, which are much more important than capital. I refer to things like knowledge and know-how, and access to markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c705b156dccd430d912f8dda22a1d226\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c705b156dccd430d912f8dda22a1d226\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfe15e3e2ba9468da78e62da546e2b9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfe15e3e2ba9468da78e62da546e2b9f\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think this bill highlights what is happening in New Zealand to a large extent. Once again we are in danger of drifting back to the situation we had between 1984 and 1990, when Labour came into office and sold off New Zealand, and between 1990 and 1999, when National came in and sold off New Zealand. Now we see Labour and National once again combining forces to establish a situation whereby they can once again sell off what little is left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI think the preceding speaker could quite easily have been speaking about the wine industry in New Zealand. Small vineyards have been developing in New Zealand. For example, Sauvignon Blanc is grown in the Matua Valley area, which is where Sauvignon Blanc started in New Zealand. The Matua Valley Wines company is the result of wonderful work done by the Spence brothers. Of course, people can reach a certain point at which they ask where they go to from here, and, inevitably, if their family do not want to stay on in the business, they ask themselves who will give them the best deal. The best deal may come from an overseas company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225310ee64319340bdab3587aaec5509ef\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s wrong with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b346450c496439fa86683cb5dc91b38\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The company loses its New Zealand feel; what is \u201CNew Zealand\u201D about it is being sold off. [Interruption] What is the name of the company now? We are gradually selling off New Zealand in that sort of way. In the first instance it sounds good, but if people think those big international companies are here for the benefit of New Zealand, they really have another think coming. People are so naive. Deborah Coddington and Gordon Copeland are so naive. If they think those big overseas companies are here for the benefit of New Zealand, they are dreaming. It is absolute dreamtime. They should be with Michael Jackson in never-never land. They are never-never land people if they believe that the big overseas companies are here to help New Zealand. Those wine companies are here only to help their shareholders get all they can out of the New Zealand wine industry. If necessary they would move on tomorrow, if there was no more profit, and it would be to heck with New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI give members that as an example. I think it is so appropriate to the Helensville electorate and to the sort of thing that happened in West Auckland in the past. We are losing the New Zealand person being involved in and running the business. Those companies are now run not by New Zealanders but by foreign people. Foreign people come to New Zealand and run the companies now, and New Zealand jobs go begging. It may be that a New Zealander can get into the company and work his or her way up to the top somewhere in New York, or wherever, but we have to ask ourselves, if we are New Zealanders, where is New Zealand in all of that? I raise that as an issue. It is a classic example that I have come across. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d494cab2e44824a6442c18e8f6bd72\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s Ralph Norris going?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c114a826794d4d6ebbae162f21eb8953\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: He is gone; he is lost to New Zealand. He is not here for New Zealand any more. It is a culture thing, of course. The National Party member talked about foreigners coming in and it being a racial thing. It is not; it is a pro - New Zealand thing. That is something the National Party does not understand. Those members are here only to talk to the big boys who want $50 million or $150 million deals. We wonder what else can flow on from that to a particular political party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First does not want a bar of that type of thing. We are here for New Zealand first. We do not want that situation created, which is the danger we see in this legislation. Deborah Coddington does not want to stay in Parliament any more and does not have any regard for trying to protect the interests of New Zealand any more. She is going; she is gone. But New Zealand First is here. We make the point that we should not pretend that any of these big companies are here for New Zealand. They are big internationals; they are in New Zealand today and in Chile tomorrow. If the Chilean wine industry booms, they will be in Chile tomorrow, and in Argentina the next day if they can. That is the way it goes. They would be in South-east Asia if they could grow wine there, but it is very, very difficult to grow wine from grapes in South-east Asia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAll the ideas that some of these people come up with sound great, but I say to Mr Copeland that I am afraid that he is really out of touch with what big business is about. I am sure that when he was with the oil company it was not working for New Zealand. It was working for its shareholders and its big interests. New Zealand First says we do not want to fall into the trap, once again, of National and Labour doing a deal and taking turns to sell off New Zealand. That is where New Zealand First comes in. We are in the middle. We want to make sure that everything is straight and fair, and that New Zealanders, in any deal that is done, are protected. New Zealand First\u2019s role is to look after New Zealanders first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022a65ed43c5561454cad0d198789edde6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a65ed43c5561454cad0d198789edde6a\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022154ea7a99efe4cc7a86d49a3f7a13043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022154ea7a99efe4cc7a86d49a3f7a13043\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I say to those members who, like Mr Power, are concerned about the extent of time the Chairperson has given me that this will be my last call. I am grateful for that time because, apart from New Zealand First, the Greens are the only party opposing the liberalisation of foreign investment in New Zealand. I know that ACT would like absolutely no rules on foreign investment, but at least it holds no sway in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EAs far as wanting to introduce tighter controls on foreign investment\u2014something we think most New Zealanders support\u2014I have a few more amendments that I would like to explain to the Committee and to the people of New Zealand who are listening. The first is to clause 32. It relates to the whole issue of compiling and maintaining a full and correct record of all land, business, and building sales to foreign investors\u2014something that I think is absolutely vital and should be a responsibility of the regulator to do and to report on annually to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI am pleased to say that most of the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee recognised that there is a paucity of information about the extent of foreign investment in New Zealand. The Government officially acknowledges that somewhere around 1 million hectares of land is foreign owned, that a certain amount of our coastline is in foreign ownership\u2014approximately 57 kilometres\u2014and that around 2,720 hectares of offshore islands and around 150,000 hectares of high country are in foreign ownership. But absolutely no records are kept of land that is owned offshore that falls below the various thresholds contained in the schedules. All the members of the select committee acknowledged that there is some concern in the community about the extent of land purchases in particular areas by foreign buyers, even when most of the individual purchases are below the threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI was pleased that the whole committee agreed with this statement in the commentary on the bill: \u201CHigh demand by overseas persons increases house prices and can make it unaffordable for some New Zealanders to own property in such areas. There is currently no means for determining the extent of overseas ownership where the properties purchased are below the applicable threshold,\u201D. The majority of the committee went on to state: \u201C\u2026 the collection of information regarding the residency status of property owners would be valuable.\u201D I am pleased that that recommendation is in the commentary, along with an encouragement to the Government to consider implementing a pilot programme to collect that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThat is good as far as it goes, but we simply say it should go further and be obligatory. The Greens are concerned about two matters. One matter was raised by the whole committee, and that is the fact that foreign investors are outbidding Kiwis. We are not just talking about the bach at the beach or the family farm, both of which we think Kiwis should be able to buy; we are talking about that first home, which is so vital in order for Kiwi families to get the start in life they deserve. The dream of owning one\u2019s own home is now turned into a nightmare because so much foreign capital is coming into New Zealand, particularly from Australia. Investors are buying up cheap residential properties and making it impossible for young Kiwi families to buy their own homes. So much for National\u2019s property-owning democracy or Labour\u2019s ownership society! The fact is foreign investors are allowed to outbid Kiwis when it comes to buying that first home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWe have evidence of that. We have anecdotal evidence from around the country\u2014from Kait\u0101ia to Invercargill. In terms of specific evidence, when I was on a select committee exchange to Australia last year we met a New South Wales Labor MP who was coming to New Zealand to buy up properties in Huntly and Ng\u0101ruaw\u0101hia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221851cbe39bae4968bcf16f16415d200f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221851cbe39bae4968bcf16f16415d200f\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a brief call to rebut some of the nonsense New Zealand First decided to inject into the debate, and in particular its criticism of the National Party. We know that New Zealand First is one of this Parliament\u2019s parasites\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227196a5b24ef54380bf8531d495f5e72c\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. A member cannot call another member a parasite, surely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c28a183a78f4489c85177b337a09350e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Not even a party, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d67081f9b60343c78c794b597d0f7dc8\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I ask the member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f562419ef6e7438687556031eeaa36f0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Some will notice the parasitic behaviour of New Zealand First in the constant comments of its members about the National Party. Although I use the term \u201Cparasitic\u201D, one may say also that that behaviour is somewhat symbiotic, because without the National Party there would be no New Zealand First. It is quite galling to find the New Zealand First politicians\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f59b778b138844be9cd6f1c3518fa789\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261aa3f96b0094f0698575f2620547e90\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I was just coming to the bill. If I had not been disturbed by the point of order, I would have been in only my first minute or so of rebutting the issue at hand: the misrepresentation New Zealand First chooses to put on National\u2019s support for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAlthough we have reservations about the bill, in essence we recognise that facilitating overseas investment in a country like this is important. That does not mean selling everything off, I say to Mr Jones. It does not mean entering into the sorts of shonky lease-type arrangements that the Government has entered into over the Transpower assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022360627f8c5df4d87aa3a6aadc3d229ff\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: What is that about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2278ade971f43e0b9334d2622b64f23\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Members ask what that is all about. We would all like to know what it is all about. It would be helpful to Parliament if Dr Michael Cullen were to come down here and explain exactly how it is that this Government, which is so committed to keeping State assets in the hands of the State, has allowed such a transparently shonky deal to be put together. It is transparently shonky, but is not transparent as a deal. Although we know that the assets are now in someone else\u2019s hands and that the various parties in this Parliament who support the Labour Party have allowed that type of investment, we do not know exactly the nature and structure of that deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fcaf4d9ce7f403399d849a367c4f653\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Why don\u2019t we know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3932999f7e540a6a3a94dccba21867a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Cullen will not tell us. I have to surmise that that is probably because Dr Cullen himself does not know what has been done under his nose. Dr Cullen himself probably does not know what has been slipped into the pile of papers on his desk and what he himself has signed off on, or exactly how much the New Zealand tax base has been rorted as a result of that particular transaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcb516963a1e492098e92e4b826f2478\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: What did Treasury say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f753f123764e228b0157463b4250a9\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It would not matter what Treasury said, because the Labour Government simply rubbishes everything that comes out of Treasury. It does not treat Treasury at all seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne of the most interesting points in this bill is the matter of the investor tests. It is good to see that we are making sure that those who choose to invest in this country are well qualified to do so, and that locals will not pay the price for their inability to get together the capital they need. I ask the New Zealand First members to tell us what is so wrong with having foreign investment in this country. Has there ever been a time in our post-1840 history when we have not been heavily reliant on foreign investment? There has probably never been such a time. Certainly the places of origin of the capital that is invested in this country have changed dramatically. There was a time when New Zealand was largely owned by British insurance companies and British banks. That, of course, has substantially changed. Many New Zealanders now, through international share portfolios, share in overseas investment in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022bba685e63cba432eb058ce2ae11912e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bba685e63cba432eb058ce2ae11912e5\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223f3e79a50584430db6090c6820c12c87\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000723\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 10 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000724\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (b) of subclause (1) after the words \u201Cbusiness assets\u201D, the words \u201Cincluding aquaculture\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002283206a4c06574a4e84b50708d3cd10c4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7fac007f4154bb7b25adea14349b5e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7fac007f4154bb7b25adea14349b5e7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendments are to clause 14 in the name of Rod Donald and are to omit the expression \u201C25\u201D and substitute the expression \u201C10\u201D in subclause (1)(a)(i) and (ii). These amendments are inconsistent with decisions already taken and are therefore out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 14 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (ii) of subclause (1)(a) the expression \u201C100\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226bc4a0f069744eec8b33c132c7df2f64\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000728\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 14 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000729\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (ii) of subclause (1)(b) the expression \u201C100\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000730\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000731\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 14 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000732\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (c) of subclause (1) the expression \u201C100\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000733\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000734\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 17 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000735\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (e) of subclause (1) the words \u201Ceither subparagraph (i) is met or subparagraph (ii)\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Csubparagraph (i) and subparagraph (ii) are met\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000736\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000737\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 17 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000738\u0022\u003Eto insert, after subparagraph (iv)(e) in subclause (1) the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000739\u0022\u003E(f)\tthe relevant land includes pastoral lease land and a tenure review must be completed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002228617353fdc24a24bb0c299ee33a2325\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000740\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 18 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000741\u0022\u003Eto insert in the heading to this clause after the words \u201Csensitive land\u201D, the words \u201Cand significant business assets\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a04878eddb57442fb6fa2fb65d8d4516\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000742\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 18 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000743\u0022\u003Eto add to paragraph (a) of subclause (2) the following new subparagraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000744\u0022\u003E(vii)\tincreased domestic substitution of imports into New Zealand.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ba0327b27bf847db92ae06831ef131e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000745\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to 18 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000746\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (2) the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000747\u0022\u003E(g)\twhether there are or will be adequate mechanisms in place to ensure that any decision made is consistent with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi including:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000748\u0022\u003E(i)\tprovision made for settlements to claims made under the of Waitangi, including return of land;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000749\u0022\u003E(ii)\tcapacity retained for the establishment of M\u0101ori and Crown resource co-management structures.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000750\u0022\u003E(iii)\tprotection of the right to benefit from, enjoy, and exercise authority over M\u0101ori taonga.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226e162bf7a4194f028d60cbcc0dca1e8d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 96\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000751\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 19 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000752\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (1) the following new paragraphs:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000753\u0022\u003E(e)\tthe relevant overseas person or (if that person is not an individual) all the individuals with control of the relevant overseas person are New Zealand citizens, ordinarily resident in New Zealand, or intending to reside in New Zealand indefinitely; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000754\u0022\u003E(f)\tthe overseas investment will, or is likely to, benefit New Zealand (or any part of it) or group of New Zealanders, as determined by the relevant Ministers under section 18; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000755\u0022\u003E(g)\tif the relevant investment involves aquaculture, the relevant Ministers determine that that benefit will be, or is likely to be, identifiable and substantial.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c306de08adc141feae38deec92f49ef2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221087b27b94964f13a9e04245ff8af996\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: An amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 20 to omit and substitute an expression in subclause (1)(a) is out of order because it is inconsistent with decisions that have already been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 32 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto add the following new paragraphs:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E(i)\tcompile and maintain a full and correct record of all land, business and building sales to foreign investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E(j)\treport annually on the extent of foreign ownership in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d04788c1e2cd4d72aa72f90bab83856e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000761\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 35 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000762\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (3) the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000763\u0022\u003E(f)\tthe content of any Code of Responsibility for Foreign Investors.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227797abc54b3844e18ec3312696cf1a17\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000764\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 43 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000765\u0022\u003Eto add to paragraph (a) of subclause (2) after the expression \u201C$300,000\u201D, the words \u201Cor 10% of the value of the asset, whichever is greater\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf9a356de1334cf4aa798dde174cfc19\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000766\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 43 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000767\u0022\u003Eto add to paragraph (b) of subclause (2) after the expression \u201C$300,000\u201D, the words \u201Cor 10% of the value of the asset, whichever is greater\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000768\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000769\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 44 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000770\u0022\u003Eto add to paragraph (a) of subclause (2) after the expression \u201C$300,000\u201D, the words \u201Cor 10% of the value of the asset, whichever is greater\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000771\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000772\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 44 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000773\u0022\u003Eto add to paragraph (b) of subclause (2) after the expression \u201C$300,000\u201D, the words \u201Cor 10% of the value of the asset, whichever is greater\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000774\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000775\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 45 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000776\u0022\u003Eto add to paragraph (a) of subclause (2) after the expression \u201C$300,000\u201D, the words \u201Cor 10% of the value of the asset, whichever is greater\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000777\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000778\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 45 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000779\u0022\u003Eto add to paragraph (b) of subclause (2) after the expression \u201C$300,000\u201D, the words \u201Cor 10% of the value of the asset, whichever is greater\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000780\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000781\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 47 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000782\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (3) after the expression \u201C$300,000\u201D, the words \u201Cor 10% of the value of the asset, whichever is greater\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000783\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022868bc0915ffb43089f966345456878cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022868bc0915ffb43089f966345456878cd\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek your advice in respect of Standing Order 120, which reads: \u201CAn amendment must be put into writing, signed by the mover, and delivered to the Clerk at the Table.\u201D I have just noted that the amendments we voted on in Mr Donald\u2019s name that were moved by Mr Donald have not been signed by Mr Donald. In fact, they were signed by Mr Locke. That places us in an unusual position, unless the Standing Orders can give us further elucidation on the application of Standing Order 120. I would appreciate that advice. You would see the difficulty, which, at face value, is that the amendments have not been signed by the mover, as required by Standing Order 120. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896d6b7524824bff8419484fc1c5e984\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, thank you for raising that. That would be the impression one would get. But the explanation is that the amendments were all submitted in writing and all signed on behalf of Mr Donald by Keith Locke, and that signature is on the original submission of the amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ae6d12b67cd48eab11abfd8ab2086b5\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to be clear about that, Mr Chairperson. The Standing Order very clearly states that the amendment is to be signed by the mover. In this case, we have several amendments, and the amendments we have just voted on begin: \u201CRod Donald, in Committee, to move \u2026\u201D. That makes Rod Donald the mover of those amendments. Mr Donald has not signed those amendments; Mr Locke has. What is the standing of those amendments? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a33a4e04180d4de18f5714a44e67f5d6\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: I think that Mr Power has raised a very interesting point, and had the Clerk pointed that out to us at the time the amendments were submitted, then we would have taken them off the Table and a member such as Mr Power would not have had the benefit of seeing our amendments in advance of the Committee stage debate. I could have signed them after 2 o\u2019clock when I returned to the House from Dunedin this morning. So perhaps the Chair would like to consider whether the Standing Order intends that it be required that the actual mover sign an amendment or whether another member can sign it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIn the same way, I understand, the procedure at the moment is that other members can sign, for example, the cover sheet for a member\u2019s bill without the actual mover of that bill needing to sign it. For that matter another member can sign off an oral question without the actual member asking the question being needed to sign it. I think the liberal interpretation has been such that other members of one\u2019s own party can sign on one\u2019s behalf, and if we change that interpretation for this purpose, I think it would create some problems for parties having to find members to sign their own oral questions and other documents when they are not necessarily available to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9c32312212d418e86fac44168c35a38\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the points made by Mr Donald. I also accept the practicalities of having to deal with the tabling of oral questions and members\u2019 bills when proposing members\u2014I guess that is the right phrase\u2014are not available to annex their signatures. The difficulty we find ourselves in here is that a specific Standing Order relates directly to amendments. It is my submission\u2014and this is not a difficulty for Mr Donald in the sense that it is probably more a difficulty for the Clerk that the matter has got to this point\u2014that it seems on the surface that Standing Order 120 has been breached because the amendments have not been signed by the mover. There is no reference to \u201Cthe mover or his or her nominee\u201D, \u201Chis or her appointed person\u201D, or \u201Chis or her substitute\u201D. The Standing Order is very clear that it is the mover of the amendment who must sign the document. Now, I seek guidance from you as to whether we have just wasted 25 minutes of the Committee\u2019s time in voting on amendments that are out of order\u2014in fact, that probably breach the Standing Orders by the fact that we even considered them in the first place, given that, as I say, on the face of it Standing Order 120 has been directly breached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002220fe5fc7938943f8928b7f75415b2a95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220fe5fc7938943f8928b7f75415b2a95\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I need no further assistance; the matter has been very clearly laid out by the person who raised the point of order. Yes, on a literal reading of the Standing Orders it would appear to be correct. However, it is a very longstanding practice in the Committee and in the House that with consent, a member can sign on behalf of another member. That is what has happened this time, and it is for the convenience of members. But I think it is an issue that needs to be looked at, and I will get a proper ruling from the Speaker as to this practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00229333b43702864c1eab211ebd9d99e910\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229333b43702864c1eab211ebd9d99e910\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Whip\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I fully accept your ruling in that regard, but I would like to say that I have checked Standing Order 365, which relates to the lodging of oral questions. It specifically states that such a question must be \u201Csigned by the member or by another member on the member\u2019s behalf,\u201D. So there is a distinction between Standing Order 120 and Standing Order 365, which is contrary to what Rod Donald advised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b1dd481b6304e738f81b021e192ebfa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. That was not part of my ruling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022240d0d8c37ac4aa1a1c127eae2a075e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022240d0d8c37ac4aa1a1c127eae2a075e6\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Thank you for your ruling. I do think that it would be worth the Speaker clarifying the difference between Standing Orders 365 and 120. I concur with my friend from United Future on that point, and I thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your guidance on it. But that still leaves us in a difficult position, and I think we owe it to the Committee to determine now what status is to be accorded the amendments we have just spent 25 minutes voting on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022abd484da67834ee683cae65c8d8278ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abd484da67834ee683cae65c8d8278ae\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any assistance on that. I have accepted those amendments, based on the longstanding practice of doing it in just that way. All the amendments were put and they were dealt with. Decisions were made, and the votes were all lost. So other than to urge the Speaker to give a clear ruling on that\u2014as I am sure the Speaker will\u2014so that we can incorporate that longstanding practice through the Standing Orders, I cannot take it any further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022a31e7554d37f4a0c9caabf424c8071ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a31e7554d37f4a0c9caabf424c8071ad\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (Junior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. With regard to the Minister\u2019s amendments, I presume they will be put en bloc, so that we cannot, say, just have a vote on the amendment to omit clauses 21A to 21V and the heading above clause 21A as a separate vote? Some of us want to support that amendment but oppose everything else. We have supported the omission of the clauses dealing with marginal strips, but here we will seem to be voting against their omission. Is it the practice that there will be just one vote, and that we have no choice in the situation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad7f20c443f04a229e1f8a93040ded1a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919bca93dc124cff88be542c55f1c86f\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Do I have to seek leave to have that done separately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa20d20ed984934ade17f0ffb4f708d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is the normal practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240b25a2cec104ca49689e8995f22f9e7\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, I seek leave that we first vote separately on the provision in relation to clauses 21A to 21V and the heading above clause 21A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f096e41c5ad04cc9976290275c57ba7d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to Part 2, and the following amendments in his name to Part 2, be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of clause 42(1) the words \u201Cproduce to the regulator\u201D, and substitute the words: \u201Cprovide the regulator with\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) of clause 70 the expression \u201C2004\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C2005\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto omit from section 57(1)(b) in clause 73 the expression \u201C57H\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C57HA\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto omit from section 57F(2)(c) in clause 73 the words \u201CMinister or\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto omit from section 57G(1)(b) in clause 73 the words \u201Cthe relevant overseas person is, or (if that person is not an individual) all the individuals with control of the relevant overseas person are,\u201D and substitute the words \u201Call the individuals with control of the relevant overseas person are\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto omit from section 57HA(1) in clause 73 the words \u201CMinister or\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1) of clause 78 after the words \u201Cexemptions granted under\u201D, the words \u201Cthe 1973 Act or\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226336beceb4fb4199bc80c7173a06c8b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 86\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227884985317e5481fbfafab6590554ced\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 26\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; Green Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000809\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002204e1a06ef0f049c195f7e0aad293c48c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204e1a06ef0f049c195f7e0aad293c48c\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Prior to the dinner break the Chairperson went through with members the concerns we had regarding amendments and Standing Order 120. That Standing Order refers to the fact that an amendment must be put into writing, signed by the mover, and delivered to the Table. Prior to the dinner break we discussed the fact that Mr Donald had moved amendments but they had been signed by Mr Locke. We had a discussion about whether that affected the validity of the amendments, and what would become of them, in terms of their standing, now that the vote had been taken on them. The Chairperson prior to the dinner break indicated that he would get a ruling from the Speaker, and I am asking at this point whether that ruling is forthcoming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022afab857bec774e538c26acf3aebfeb09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afab857bec774e538c26acf3aebfeb09\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Power is right to the extent that the Chairperson said he would seek advice from the Speaker on the issue, but the Chairperson also clearly ruled that he accepted the amendments. There was no doubt about that. So that particular issue is resolved, as far as I am concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dfea5b01c684d9b9735cf0e56500bb4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: What did he say then, Mr Donald?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aacc1bdde314b6fa2e6e57181de6630\u0022\u003EROD DONALD\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Simich accepted the amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00223b050b9221454e9b9deb8aa6e20712f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b050b9221454e9b9deb8aa6e20712f6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The ruling is that a member can sign on behalf of another member if the member had that member\u2019s permission. So I ask Mr Donald whether he had given his permission to Mr Locke to sign on his behalf. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u002234c5c1864ffe47bc9598b55a78e6a778\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234c5c1864ffe47bc9598b55a78e6a778\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I did indeed give my permission to Mr Locke to sign those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022d25801ef94b14b0bb02d115acab6e1b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d25801ef94b14b0bb02d115acab6e1b2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022874788cb1fcb4b598396620517ed716f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022874788cb1fcb4b598396620517ed716f\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. During the points of order about this matter, Mr Copeland raised a very interesting point, which was that the matter raised by Mr Donald by way of comparison was to draw an analogy with oral questions being signed by another member of Parliament. Mr Copeland\u2019s contribution to the debate was quite right when he referred to Standing Order 365, which specifically makes provision, at 365(1)(a), for oral questions to be signed by a member or by another member on that member\u2019s behalf. In other words, there is an express, an explicit, authorisation for another member, with the consent of the member lodging the question, or the moving member, to do that on his or her behalf. No such explicit reference to another member signing on behalf of a mover in respect of an amendment exists under Standing Order 120. One of those Standing Orders relating to oral questions clearly makes provision for another member to sign on behalf of a member; Standing Order 120 makes no such allowance, expressly or impliedly. Although I certainly do not want to question your ruling, is it now the case that Standing Order 120 is amended by a Speaker\u2019s ruling, so that a member, with another member\u2019s consent, may actually sign an amendment moved by the original member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022e909a8bfa436428cbf498409f75593ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e909a8bfa436428cbf498409f75593ef\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not correct. It is a longstanding practice that a member may sign amendments on behalf of another member, if he or she has that member\u2019s permission. That is the ruling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002238a0a422f4b44c49b1b011c34bceda98\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000820\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to schedule 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000821\u0022\u003Eto insert in the second column of Table 2 in Part 1 for the item relating to any regional park created under the Local Government Act 1974, and for the item relating to land that is listed, or in a class listed, as a reserve, a public park, or other sensitive area by the regulator under section 38, the words \u201C0.4 hectares\u201D in each case.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022114844b5e1a541ca96830a5636f92306\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 26\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ac462f9d349544fb99953360b0f544a1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 27\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; Green Party 8;.M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcb8218511704b44b62de330a2734c0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcb8218511704b44b62de330a2734c0c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I apologise. I was looking at the voting instructions for the evening and forgot, of course, that the House resumed at 7 p.m., not 7.30 p.m. I ask to correct the ACT vote from six to five.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00227376048838a54b24b1b723e3b7d4f635\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227376048838a54b24b1b723e3b7d4f635\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is not. Thank you. The vote will be corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221dd33964459e47108c782e5ebc6e5a33\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000825\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 376 in the name of Hon Dr Michael Cullen to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dbe688ae3d224df698ab641d38c0bc6b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 27\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225911ecda74a74a00a0c4704da158ba40\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 27\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022018d4b56f7c24038b537c0b0851c4c16\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9e5ad67b2c646b798b831d0adb8d536\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9e5ad67b2c646b798b831d0adb8d536\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to rise on behalf of the National Party to address this part of the Overseas Investment Bill. If commentators on this bill take nothing else out of it, they will know one thing\u2014that is, the tide is going out for this very tired Labour Government. It is on the way out big time when its coalition partner, United Future, will not even support its tired, old Labour policy. Even if Labour does not think that people with property rights should be respected and rewarded, at least United Future was smart enough to understand the issue, and left the Government on its own\u2014on its tod\u2014with nobody else in the entire Parliament supporting it. The Government could not convince the Greens, who are opposed to everything, and it could not convince New Zealand First members, who are opposed to everything in this field. The Government did not get support from United Future members, who could at least see it National\u2019s way. It did not really care about the Progressives, and ACT would not support it on this measure, also for some very good reasons. Labour members were \u201CJohnny-no-mates\u201D, and they have come to Parliament in the incredibly embarrassing position that they cannot even pass their own legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EDavid Parker was quoted in the Otago Daily Times, telling the people of Otago that he had a victory. He said that he had won and declared victory. That reminds me of Michael Cullen and Helen Clark declaring victory a few months ago\u2014well, they are not smiling quite so readily tonight. David Parker will be looking for a new job post - election day, 17 September. He will be looking for a new job, but it will not be in this sort of area. No wonder Government members look a downtrodden and disheartened lot; they cannot even pass their legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to refer to one thing that Mr Parker said in the Chamber recently. He took offence that National wanted people who owned something to be paid for it when it was taken off them. Then he said our position was inconsistent because, when it came to the foreshore and seabed issue, we were not prepared to give M\u0101ori anything for taking it off them, and that inconsistency was the problem with our position. I hate to tell Mr Parker, but he may not be aware that in National\u2019s view M\u0101ori did not own the foreshore and seabed in an exclusive situation. They owned it along with all other New Zealanders, and they have not had anything taken off them. They are in the same position that they were in beforehand regarding the foreshore and seabed legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo Mr Parker might be a bit confused about National members\u2019 position on marginal strips, but we are not confused and we do not intend to send the message to anybody who invests in New Zealand\u2014a domestic person or someone from offshore\u2014that we will somehow legislate to have that person\u2019s property rights taken off him or her anytime we like, just because the people in power think it is a really good idea on the day. We have seen that system operating in various other regimes. It has not worked tremendously well in Zimbabwe and I doubt that it would work terribly well here in New Zealand. So we will not be supporting that notion. [Interruption] That is right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI do want to refer to the investment in companies that come here from offshore, and I think lifting the threshold does make sense. There are some very sound and credible reasons why foreigners who invest in New Zealand companies can actually add some real value beyond just the capital they invest in those companies. They can bring knowledge and skills and, more importantly, they can bring a gateway to take those New Zealand products and really grow them in offshore markets. I think we sometimes look with far too much scepticism at companies that come to New Zealand and invest. New Zealand is a country born out of entrepreneurs and people with a number eight fencing wire mentality of doing things, and we want to encourage that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to make\u2014if I can make it in the 37 seconds that I have available\u2014is about the purpose of the bill. I think it makes sense. The purpose clause of the bill states that it is a privilege for someone from overseas to buy land in New Zealand, and that when they do so, they should meet and honour some criteria. One of the other things I heard when I sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee was that all foreigners who invested in land in New Zealand were bad and all New Zealanders who invested in land were good. That is not true; plenty of New Zealanders actually stop access in any form to their land. But foreigners who come here do have to recognise that they are playing in our playground, and that New Zealanders have a right regarding that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u0022b34bc4a798f44a06abe75dbc6863b877\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b34bc4a798f44a06abe75dbc6863b877\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is with some sadness that I speak to the title of this bill, because the bill has gone in the wrong direction, in the Green Party\u2019s point of view, and it has even gone in the wrong direction from the point of view of the Labour members who were on the 2001 select committee inquiry into the activities of the Overseas Investment Commission. In that inquiry, the Labour members and the New Zealand First member backed a number of Green Party recommendations that would have tightened up the control on foreign investment in New Zealand, whereas instead this bill actually liberalises the foreign investment regime. Yes, there is the smokescreen that so-called iconic sites will be more difficult to buy, but nothing in this bill will actually stop them from being purchased by overseas investors, and there is now every encouragement in this bill for foreign investors to come in and buy up more of our land, buildings, and businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI think the complete removal of any land threshold in central business districts is extraordinary. It means that there will now be absolutely no control on land and buildings being purchased in the central business districts of Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch. Dr Cullen has realised his dream, which is to make New Zealand one of the most liberal foreign investment regimes in the world. This legislation makes us consistent with the United States\u2019 requirements for a free-trade agreement with it, and it brings us into line with what the multinational corporations have been pushing for under the General Agreement on Trade in Services. So the title of this bill really ought to be the \u201COverseas Investment Liberalisation Bill\u201D, because it does nothing to achieve the stated purpose, which\u2014as the previous speaker acknowledged\u2014is to provide that it should be a privilege for overseas persons to own or control sensitive New Zealand assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI have moved one amendment to clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, to ensure that no commencement date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council can take effect before 30 June 2006. That is to provide a cooling-off period, if you like, for the Government to think about the merits of this legislation, or perhaps to give an incoming Government that is more progressive in its outlook than this Government the chance to amend this legislation. I think it would be entirely consistent for the Government to support that amendment, because it dragged the chain over the amendments that Winston Peters managed to negotiate some time ago. They were not gazetted during the life of the National - New Zealand First Government nor during the balance of the period of National-led Government after New Zealand First left that coalition. To give some credit to Dr Cullen, he did finally gazette those changes, which have at least required farmland to be publicly advertised for sale in New Zealand before it is flogged off overseas\u2014never mind how small the advertisement is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIt is quite consistent with overseas investment legislation for the Act or regulations not to come into force straight after the Governor-General has signed them. So I would urge other parties to support delaying this legislation until at least 30 June 2006, to provide something of a cooling-off period\u2014a buyer-beware period\u2014so that the people of New Zealand do have the chance to vote on this issue at the election, without the country being locked into a foreign investments regime that means, basically, that we are like the Wild West, but with a sheriff who is working hand in hand with the outlaws rather than on behalf of the good citizens of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022188a5135bef54d6f9cd6e595eea67f4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022188a5135bef54d6f9cd6e595eea67f4b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to clause 1 of the Overseas Investment Bill on behalf of the ACT party, and I think that the bill is incorrectly named. It should be called the \u201CAttack on Private Property Rights Bill\u201D, because one of the fundamental rights one has when one owns property is to be able to sell it, but here the Government is claiming the right to dictate to citizens about who they can sell it to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E They have not actually given any reasons. Most of the speeches have been incoherent, like Mr Donald\u2019s speech in which he was talking about the good citizens of New Zealand versus the outlaws. What an amazing statement! He is prepared to claim that anyone who is not a New Zealander is an outlaw. If statements like that were being made overseas, he would immediately condemn that as xenophobic, but then with no shame at all he is prepared to make xenophobic statements himself, and also demonstrate a complete lack of history. This country was actually built with overseas investment. This country was built by people who came and invested in this nation, and we still need their capital and expertise today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI listened also with some confusion to Mr John Key\u2019s speech, because while he was attacking the Government in the Committee stage, it appeared to me that the two old parties were voting together for this piece of socialist\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4428a0cef3249c3ae22adfea7730e1a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The great coalition!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222a4036ca3e144b499191d27428449c0\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe I misunderstood, or maybe Mr Key did not know how his party was voting, but it appeared to me that the two old parties were voting together for this legislation, which is clearly a nonsense. Intellectually it does not stand up. It is correct, as Mr Donald said, that there are some clauses in the bill that will, in fact, result in some liberalisation. But there are other measures for which there is no intellectual or moral basis. If a person selling his or her land is required to provide a walkway for citizens, and if that is desirable, why are only foreigners required to provide that walkway, and not people born in New Zealand? That is a complete nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b2157447ee41dbbf7b53b0375ed0a2\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: That is the next step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221245e22d080d48caacc13aecd6945864\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe it is the next step. From the ACT party\u2019s point of view, if the community wants to own a piece of land, then the community should pay for it. To just take it, is communism. That is socialism. I am amazed\u2014well, actually I am not amazed. I would like to think that one should be amazed that the National Party is voting for such a measure, but I am not, because the National Party members were going around the country today saying they were opposed to attempts to take farmers\u2019 land, and then we have Nick Smith\u2019s bill\u2014and Nick Smith should actually be in the Alliance\u2014which is a socialist measure. That was being put forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe party that has been\u2014and I think it would be fair enough to say this in the House\u2014consistently in favour of private property rights does not believe in this type of intervention, and says that it is morally wrong that this Parliament has no moral right to be placing restrictions on citizens\u2019 private property rights\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3fb61b24ecd4621b0ee508ef03e53a3\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s United Future\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c29d3b555d594acf960ef5f0ff110c5a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have not actually noticed United Future being consistent on that matter. I think, in fact, the only party that has been consistent on that question has been the ACT party. I have looked at the minority reports, and I do not see a minority report from United Future making a strong stand on behalf of private property rights. Indeed, I have not been hearing such speeches on behalf of them. I hear Mr Peter Dunne making speeches on behalf of some sort of outdoor group that claims to have the right to trample over people\u2019s private property rights. Am I right there, Mr Copeland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0cb225bcae4345af34763fabfe69ee\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Fourth paragraph, page 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223864b1f1cff14cdfb8216a5a101dbbae\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Fourth paragraph, page 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c424fe102ea4ab680a1a22787f622f4\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: No heading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b6746e4e1448eaac6caea4dd09bcca\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Fourth paragraph, no heading. What does it say, Mr Copeland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227359a5cffb694e4392ebf4ab4a12ca4f\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I have read it out to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ac2e1cb3be44e2080771ffbc2bf118f\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member has read it out to the House. Does the member want me to read it again? All I can say is that it is so pathetic I cannot even find it. What I am interested to know is, and given all these speeches, how is this bill going through? The National Party is opposed to it. The Greens are opposed to it. The United Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da090f657c6d4c06a580e7a4013f0a6e\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: National is for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3276cb073e452f8627796558e856b0\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I heard Mr Key say he was opposed to it. Now if he is going to vote the way that he says he believes, how can this bill be passing? There must be some extraordinary mathematics going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00221f0eb6964ede47c88bdddc2781ebe577\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f0eb6964ede47c88bdddc2781ebe577\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for a call on the title clause of this bill. One knows, when one looks around this Chamber, that a Government is on its way out when it is relying on people like the Greens, who want to stop all investment in this country, to come not into caucus but into Cabinet with it. Then it wants the same Cabinet to coalesce with the M\u0101ori Party, which wants to send everyone out of New Zealand. The Government expects that it will then have the support of a nation, and wonders why the tide is going out for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMr Prebble said he was confused. I cannot speak for Mr Prebble\u2019s state of mind, but what I can say is that if Mr Prebble had been here throughout the course of the debate he would have known that National was strongly opposed to the bill before Supplementary Order Paper 376 was tabled, which precludes the Government annexing private property without even offering compensation. So with that cleared up, I am sure that Mr Prebble will accept that investment in this country through foreign capital is what this country needs, and to send signals that that is not important, as the Green Party is doing, supported by the New Zealand First Party, would be totally unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ENow we have some Luddites here who are trying to turn the clock back. After years of market reform through the 1980s and 1990s we now have a strong-performing economy that people want to invest in. That is a vote of confidence in this economy, and we should embrace people who want to come to this country and invest here. Capital creates jobs, prosperity, and confidence. I tell Mr Donald and others that if we want to share wealth then first we have to create it, and creating it depends on getting capital and on getting people to invest their hard-earned dollars in things like infrastructure and property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EDail Jones mounted an argument earlier in the debate that all investors coming to New Zealand are large companies, and they are going to suck every bit of goodness out of this country. They are here just to rape and pillage. Well, I have to say to Mr Jones that the vast majority of foreign investors in this country are not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229402db65fcc84536b29bc0bec139e349\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: The member admits that there are some people of that view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b96be98806e42a2a854ed27af26d254\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, New Zealand First members are of that view. We are in agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe majority of investors who come to this country are small investors who come here to live, and to invest their time and their money\u2014they have kids\u2014exactly the same as Mr Jones and Mr Brown did not so long ago. It is good enough for them, but they want to chase everybody else away. Reasonable people know that in order for New Zealand to continue to prosper we need capital. Throughout the course of this debate I have given numerous examples where foreign capital has created infrastructure and jobs for hard-working New Zealanders. I do not think that people listening to Mr Jones talk about the people who have risked their capital to create jobs will agree with his argument that foreign investors do not create any value in New Zealand. That is an absolute nonsense. I know that when Mr Jones was saying it, he had a smile on his face, but unfortunately people listening across New Zealand cannot see the smile on his face, and some\u2014a very small number admittedly\u2014might in fact take him seriously, which would be a travesty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe other thing that has been noted throughout the course of the debate is that a number of investors have come here and bought high-country stations. Well, that is a crime, is it not? That is an absolute crime. The hysteria is that they will close all the roads up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002201b083e55dd84621806dcc2187f06c08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201b083e55dd84621806dcc2187f06c08\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Having been drawn into the debate, I could not resist a call, and if I have a smile on my face it is because, really, the National Party just cannot understand what happens when people invest $50 or $100 million in New Zealand, as the previous National speaker mentioned this afternoon. They invest that much money in New Zealand to take control of companies for the benefit of their overseas shareholders. They may export goods, but they also export the profits. The profits do not stay in New Zealand. The profits go overseas. [Interruption] Mr Carter and Mr Connell can laugh. Overseas shareholders want their money sent to them overseas. It is elementary. It is as simple as that, but the National Party just cannot understand that situation at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe National Party says, \u201CWhat about investment in New Zealand?\u201D. New Zealand First supports New Zealanders investing in New Zealand products. The way we say that should be done, of course, is through the New Zealand Superannuation Fund\u2014something the National Party opposed constantly and vigorously until it did one of its flip-flops and now supports it. But if we want New Zealanders to invest, they have to save, and one of the ways in which they save is through the superannuation fund. That is how one gets New Zealand investment in New Zealand businesses and how the profits are kept in New Zealand. What is bleeding New Zealand to death, and will bleed New Zealand to death, is that if the world economy changes, all the money goes overseas in profits and does not stay here. We have seen it before in New Zealand on many, many occasions in New Zealand\u2019s fiscal history, but the National Party just cannot see it at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat we have here tonight is a clear example of the two old parties, as Mr Prebble was saying, searching for a coalition partner. When one thinks about it, one realises that Labour\u2019s best coalition partner, on tonight\u2019s performance, is the National Party. I do not know why the commentators have not woken up to that. Mr Connell talked about the market reforms of the 1980s and the 1990s with the greatest enthusiasm. Those were the Labour reforms of the 1980s and the National reforms of the 1990s, and now he wants to get in bed with the Labour Party. The polls show\u2014and that is what he was looking at\u2014that that is the only way the two of them can get into Government. One has to add up the two parties\u2019 totals. If one adds either of them to any one total of the other parties, neither of them can do it. Members know how much the Labour Party loves power and how much the National Party loves power, and, boy, they will do just about anything to share that power or to have that power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESome of the commentators should look more closely at what is happening in this House, especially on bills like this, when members of each party talk about how successful the reforms of the 1980s and the 1990s were. Those parties are positioning themselves as they look at the way in which the leadership poll results change. Some people go up all the time and some people come down all the time. It is interesting to see how the National Party and the Labour Party are positioning themselves for a situation that might arise after the election. It is so important for the people of New Zealand to realise that if those two parties got together again, as they did with the 1980s and 1990s reforms, New Zealand will be in trouble. As I said, the only way that can be prevented is by New Zealand First being two or three times stronger in this House after the next election. We were founded on the mistakes of the National Party and the Labour Party in the 1980s and the 1990s, and I think that Mr Connell has given away the game tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa80c3d108bb4c9a9f4e418ee0fbb40b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa80c3d108bb4c9a9f4e418ee0fbb40b\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Chairman Mao of former Communist China would have been proud to have Dail Jones as a member, because in those times China closed its door to foreigners absolutely. Chairman Mao would have been proud to hear that speech from Dail Jones. I wonder whether Mr Dail Jones is also telling the public that New Zealand First does not want to be in power\u2014as he has apparently just declared. New Zealand First has already declared itself to be in a permanent Opposition position. That is interesting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAs a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee I would like to share the views of some of the submissioners who came before that select committee who believe that this bill has gone too far. I particularly want people to hear from a very important group\u2014and my learned colleague the Hon David Carter would agree\u2014Federated Farmers. I think they put a very credible counter-balance to the overwhelming submissions opposing the bill that came before the select committee. They were very, very anxious about the lack of overseas investment. Federated Farmers shared that with us. They are a very reputable group that we all know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EFarming is the backbone of the New Zealand economy. They were saying that people build up a business in a farm through their lives, so do we want to deprive them, when they reach the well-earned retirement stage in their life, of getting the best price for their hard work of building up their business? The Greens would, Labour would, and New Zealand First would, because they want to shut out people\u2019s options. Any New Zealand - owned businesses and landowners can sell to anybody. They do not have to sell to foreign investors. They have the absolute freedom to choose who they sell to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is wrong for the Government to restrict that right\u2014to artificially put in legislation and say that people should not be allowed to sell their hard-earned businesses that they have built up over a long period of time to the best offer. But what the Government does need to do is to introduce legislation that puts down criteria so that if overseas\u2014or even domestic\u2014investors want to purchase properties and businesses they will be subject to legislation and will have to conform to conditions. I think it is fair that people who enter a transaction should give an undertaking and be held to fulfil those conditions. That is why National has supported this legislation after the sensible Supplementary Order Paper to remove the creation of marginal strips without compensation was tabled during the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI hope I have shared with the members of the Committee, and, also, the public who are listening to this debate, that it is a matter of striking a balance. No Government has the right to restrict New Zealanders who have built up a business or who own a piece of property from accepting the best offer, given that the purchaser will have to fulfil a set of conditions. That is a pretty balanced outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is a very emotive issue. A large number of submissioners came before the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I emphasise once again that a lot of those negative feelings were generated because they felt that the law was not being enforced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00228ca94fcb634b4afa8b8da55e64340e8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ca94fcb634b4afa8b8da55e64340e8e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the bill and to follow from Pansy Wong\u2019s good contribution with another rationale, before other members\u2014particularly Dail Jones\u2014speak, as to why National supports this legislation now it has been amended. I refer to the process by which foreigners have the opportunity to buy land in New Zealand\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and that, for the benefit of Craig McNair, is an absolute privilege. Having been lucky enough to invest in New Zealand, they do so on the conditions imposed by New Zealand law and by the rules at the time of the Overseas Investment Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhat I have found particularly galling are the many cases in which foreigners have been allowed to purchase in New Zealand under conditions imposed by the Overseas Investment Commission, and then have completely thumbed their noses at the impositions imposed on them at the time they were given permission. I understand that this legislation significantly tightens the enforcement provisions. That is necessary because some foreign investors coming to this country have not been prepared to abide by the rules, and the legislation that existed previously meant that it was difficult for New Zealand to do much about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMy second point is particularly in response to the very interesting commentary from Dail Jones when he argued that we do not need foreign investment and that there is suitable capital in New Zealand to provide all the investment capital that this country needs. I suggest to that man that he should get real. Capital in this world is in very short supply, and New Zealand must develop by attracting capital. We know that New Zealanders have historically not been good savers and I do not see that in the foreseeable future they would ever be in a position to provide enough capital by themselves. In other words, if we are to progress this economy, foreign investment becomes essential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI refer now to some of the papers tabled before the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which show that over the last 3 years the number of people interested in applying to invest in New Zealand has continually declined. That is something the Minister at present in the chair, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen\u2014the Minister of Finance\u2014should take particular note of. He accepted my argument a minute ago that this country was in need of foreign capital. Therefore, questions need to be asked as to why there was considerably more interest in foreign investment in New Zealand in 2002 than there was in 2003, while there was considerably more interest in 2003 than there was in the last year for which we have figures\u20142004. I suggest to Dr Cullen, as the Minister of Finance, that an issue associated with declining confidence in overseas investment is the legislative framework imposed by this country not only on foreign investors but also on New Zealand investors. I refer to issues such as the ratification of the Kyoto Protocol, which we now find to be a miscalculation by Pete Hodgson of somewhere between $1 billion and $3 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956a0d6df8c94b51a2a8b6575c88b557\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s good maths!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205106f3ef145445082b29935c0e819a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The maths are fascinating in themselves, but the really interesting thing is the risk that it now puts this economy in for future generations. I happened to see Pete Hodgson rambling on in a TV interview tonight, saying that the reason the Government had ratified was for future generations of New Zealanders. He has now saddled New Zealand with such a huge international commitment that he is risking the very standard of living not only of future generations of New Zealanders but also of current New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to comment on is the fascinating provision that has been completely removed from the bill following its process through the select committee. It is the issue whereby the bill had suggested we should take the opportunity, as part of the approval process for foreigners purchasing land, of ensuring that public access is guaranteed by the creation of marginal strips. I have some sympathy for doing that. Provided it is upfront and explained to investors before they purchase in New Zealand, it could become part of the rules that they fulfil for the privilege of being a landowner in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00222058d6ea818647bbbabc2d1795be1d99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222058d6ea818647bbbabc2d1795be1d99\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E We have had three speeches from National Party spokespeople and I can say that I do not think any of them understand what they are talking about\u2014not one. I listened very carefully to all three members and they advocate an open-door policy to anybody coming here with a suitcase full of money, which will enable such people to buy anything they want. That is effectively what those members said. [Interruption] Does the member disagree with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdf58e4f29eb45e782b885fbe44ae70a\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ed76a2291964a1f863d08ef09a089c0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Then what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34b0cd545294ec2b20129a4c696ee82\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Read the Hansard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d58baa2cf4124ca8b218b2e62e46bb42\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I have read the member\u2019s Hansard\u2014well, I listened to his speech. Let those members answer this question: are they prepared to put any restrictions on foreign capital coming in? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf02647af61344118818dfc988241e16\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e383901302e8421493d5ca5d6696a39d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I know what it does. What those members are saying is that because we do not accept this bill and we are not drawing the line in the same place as they are, then we are\u2014what did the member call us? Was it \u201CMao Tse-Tungites\u201D or something? The fact is that we are not drawing the line where those guys are drawing the line. Of the three speeches made by the members who are sitting there in sanctimonious glory, Brian Connell was the winner. He made the most stupid speech of all of those members. He said, effectively, that people could come here, buy the land, and live anywhere else in the world. I say to members that if we go back a few years, this was a high-wage economy in which one could afford to sell land, knowing that New Zealanders could compete for it. But they are prepared to put land on the world market, knowing that New Zealanders cannot compete for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1ae546f580143e4b4db3853d833c1b0\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, poppycock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c5628093ee54f7d8365c1865e234cc8\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: By and large they cannot compete for it. There are a few who can compete for it, but by and large the average New Zealander cannot buy a house or a farm in some areas of New Zealand if they are put on the world market, and those members well know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237fdf5cdb30e402c91462bbd4af35260\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Build a wall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a724d24747ca48c59cae939a1bf1ccfc\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I tell my good friend that we are not building a wall. He has already admitted that he wants some restrictions. We are just telling him that he has not worked out where the restrictions should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022238f848145c04a8688f0ecc62f286d7e\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Build a wall! Keep them in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ffcc64745444c858c4b3623fc082a6f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member says during the election campaign that he wants to enable anybody to come to this country and buy anything from anybody, I will say to him that he has got it totally wrong, and the average New Zealander will say to him that he has got it totally wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First stands for restrictions and controls on people who want to invest here. We say that unashamedly. We have seen this country sold to the lowest bidder\u2014let alone the highest bidder\u2014and members opposite were part of it. That crowd\u2014despite saying that no ifs, buts, no maybes, they would change the lot\u2014carried on. In 1984, $16 billion worth was sold in this country. Can members tell me one benefit that we have got from that? We have had to buy back our airline and our railways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a53149eb884f88bef4c80b0b173da1\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: No, we didn\u2019t. We didn\u2019t have to buy it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222460eb8fd9384ffb819e8979426cc2ae\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: At least one member realises that we did not have to buy it back, but, if we wanted it, we had to buy it back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe could have let Air New Zealand go to the dogs. We could have let Tranz Rail go to the dogs. It might be too late\u2014it might have already gone to the dogs. The crowd sitting behind me here are saying: \u201CLet \u2019em come in. They\u2019ve got a suitcase of money, let \u2019em come in and they can buy anything we have for sale.\u201D I had thought that the Labour Government had learnt from its experiences. Clayton Cosgrove puts his hands up. He may treat this as a joke but I can tell him that there are many people in his electorate who will agree totally with New Zealand First. They are sick and tired of someone planting a for sale notice in the land of New Zealand and saying: \u201CCome here and buy it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt may not have been Richard Prebble, but I have certainly heard ACT members say that the land cannot go away. Dr Cullen said that the land cannot go away, but for the average New Zealander in many cases that is just what happens. It goes away. It might as well be 12,000 miles away, as average New Zealanders will not be able to afford to compete on the open market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd3da8f3b764d10a92581b8c8258c25\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: When did the average Kiwi own a high-country farm? Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a543ea8a5a744af689432a7edfd488c8\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member laughs. He might laugh a little bit later when he gives the low-paid people their 67c and tells them to go and buy the land they want and have saved up for, when foreigners come in and buy it at some exorbitant sum. I can tell the Committee about a situation where a house was sold on the Internet at three times its value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4938fe611a04f908548f56afec4ebc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4938fe611a04f908548f56afec4ebc2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002222aa2ee708ba4c6ebfb137b4d6053e14\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 19; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022962db979408b4c3a97fce7d8554c0284\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 28\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000901\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rod Donald to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000902\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1) after the words \u201COrder in Council\u201D the words \u201Cbut not before 30 June 2006\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9ff38bd80cf4a16a3a90ee44169cbcc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 27\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002266a33c1b802d4b80ba687d4eb0e1af8f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 20; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 28\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000903\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000904\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022300b66177e4c4b459f719d94ca4d577d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f10817fed0a5405492b36d3bf89750ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f10817fed0a5405492b36d3bf89750ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Overseas Investment Bill be now read a third time. The Overseas Investment Act has not undergone a thorough review since it passed in 1973, and I thank members of the House for their cooperation in progressing this important bill through the House. I particularly want to thank the members from ACT, the Green Party, and New Zealand First, who demonstrated how powerful the arguments in favour of this bill are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAt the commencement of this long-overdue review two objectives were identified as being of paramount importance. These were to ensure the regime focused on sensitive assets of critical interest, and to further reduce compliance costs in areas where that is feasible. The bill does that. Indeed, the second part of that has not been focused on at all during this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI want to say quite clearly that it is critical for the future of this country, and for our social and cultural development, that we have a welcoming and open attitude towards inwards foreign direct investment. Indeed, I have to point out that today the Government announced new rules for the entrepreneur category, and it was attacked by the New Zealand First leader in his first press statement as being an attack upon inward-bound investment by foreigners. It is true that 45 minutes later he put out another press statement saying we were simply pinching New Zealand First\u2019s policy, but, nevertheless, his first statement showed that party\u2019s confusion on the issue of inward-bound investment. If this country relied on its own capital resources alone, we would not just not grow; this economy would shrink, because our investment levels would be insufficient to maintain our current level of economic activity. It is a bit like Arsenal, which had to bring in a Frenchman to be a decent coach, because it could not find anybody from its home area\u2014I remind Peter Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is about this issue of reducing compliance costs. Today I have been going through, as usual, some Overseas Investment Commission recommendations on purchases. What the members opposite who voted against this bill might need to know is that the largest single category of investment that I have to approve at the moment under the law relates to, for example\u2014today\u2014the purchase by a supermarket chain, which is foreign-owned, of 1\u00BC hectares of land for a new supermarket in a small North Island town, simply because the land backs on to a drainage reserve, or something similar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022128e9484f44e449aa24fbc2b635f95be\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Iconic drainage area!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c09da47ee764c45bf83dc0c1343bcee\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, an iconic drainage reserve, no doubt\u2014in Dargaville, if one could imagine such a thing being possible. That requirement is stupid. It is stupid that we have a Government agency going through such stuff and Ministers\u2019 time being consumed in approving things of that sort. This bill wipes out the requirement for approval in that kind of case. I have to approve, time after time, redevelopments in terms of urban subdivisions, because the initial purchaser of the land for subdivision is a Singaporean company, and, again, if it is a large subdivision, the chances are that it backs on to a recreation reserve or a drainage reserve. And those subdivisions are going to be sold off to New Zealanders at the end of the day, but we have to have Overseas Investment Commission approval for that to go through. It is a nonsensical piece of compliance cost and business cost, which we need to strip out of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI make no apology for driving this measure through the policy process and driving it through Parliament. I thank those parties that have supported it for their sanity in that respect, because, bluntly, I have to read through all the pages of these reports\u2014although, having read the first page, I have pretty much come to a conclusion\u2014before I go any further. I am grateful that Ministers in the future will not have to do that kind of silly stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222927358150f54846834e2c36a1920b72\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re here to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022935e7dc4740048578e97fd1ca61f9e8a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, and we appreciate that help when it comes rarely from the National Party; a party, of course, that celebrates the fact that it is only 4 percent behind in the opinion polls, which is a sort of interesting commentary on the modern National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThen we come to the issues of sensitive land. What Peter Brown tells us\u2014from that vast North London farming experience he comes from; those broad acres of high-country sheep farms in Highgate, which are actually his background, or in Baskerville Hill, or wherever it was that he comes from\u2014is that somehow or other, because foreigners have been allowed to purchase New Zealand land, the ordinary, average Kiwi bloke can no longer buy a high-country farm. As we all know, in that good, dim, distant golden age of the 1950s, good, average Kiwis down there in Sydenham could go down to the good old Post Office, get the 3 percent loan, and go off and buy themselves a decent property somewhere around Cromwell, or Queenstown, or wherever it might be, and, sadly, that is no longer true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E It is a bit like those people who write in the Listener\u2014the true magazine for those with memories of the 1950s that are somewhat rose-coloured\u2014that no longer can the average person own a seaside bach. Well, actually, in the 1950s it was always the middle class that owned the seaside baches; it is just that the seaside baches have become a lot bigger and more posh in the last 50 years than they used to be, and cost a lot more to buy. I grew up in Burwood, and people there did not have seaside baches. It was the people in Fendalton and Cashmere who had them. So let us not weep for a golden past that never was, which has always been the basic foodstuff of populist parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis bill gives us the capacity, when considering those applications, to ensure that we can address a range of important issues such as access, conservation values, historic values, and so on, and that is very, very good indeed. It can turn into a win-win situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ELet me also make this point, because I am sick and tired of both the Green Party and articles in the Listener getting a fundamental point wrong. When foreigners purchase New Zealand land they are subject to New Zealand law in every respect, just like a New Zealander is. They do not have a separate Resource Management Act regime. They do not have a separate regime in any other sense. The people who are fighting improved land access up sensitive waterways for recreational purposes are not a bunch of foreigners; they are fifth-generation Kiwi farmers, most of whom inherited their properties. Let us be clear about where the problems are, in that particular respect. I have no time at all for this golden age rubbish and this strange xenophobia that insist that a New Zealand - born landowner is somehow kinder to New Zealanders than an American, a Canadian, or some other landowner might be. We have a damn sight more chance of tramping our way across Shania Twain\u2019s property than we have of tramping across those owned by New Zealanders in that particular area. What is more, she can sing a damn sight better than most New Zealand landowners can, and, if I am allowed to say so in these PC days, she looks a damn sight better than most New Zealand owners. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI knew that would upset New Zealand First. It is not for me to mention that Craig McNair, that great New Zealand nationalist, worked for United Airlines, flying the friendly skies on behalf of Americans, and is an American citizen. It is not for me to mention these facts about our comrades opposite\u2014Peter Brown, that well-known North Londoner, like myself; Dail Jones, who was born in Pakistan. My friend opposite is still trying to be quite sure about where he came from in the first place. We have all these sorts of things going on, from these latter-day converted Anabaptist New Zealanders over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to make is that the bill transfers the administration of this very strange Overseas Investment Commission, which has a board comprising four people, and about five employees, into Land Information New Zealand, which will have the capacity to do the follow-up work. The bill improves enormously the penalties regime, so that we can actually enforce the conditions that are imposed, which we have had great trouble doing in the past. I think this is very good, balanced legislation. I thank those members who have supported it with coherent arguments. I thank those members who have opposed it with incoherent arguments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00223d100e7a66af42ec920c1cd048f639d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d100e7a66af42ec920c1cd048f639d6\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Finance is certainly enjoying himself! I invite him to treasure the dying moments of his role as Minister of Finance, because our good member John Key is waiting in the wings to take over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAs a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee let me share with the House some of the proceedings at the select committee. [Interruption] The chairman calls out; I hope Clayton Cosgrove is going to take a call, because we have not heard enough from him. He must be falling short of being a favourite member over there. I have to share with the public that overseas investment is a very sensitive topic. Many, many submissioners came before the Finance and Expenditure Committee showing signs of anguish and insecurity at the loss of control of New Zealand business, particularly farmland and scenic icons. Part of that, unfortunately, was brought about because of a few very high-profile cases; the public perceived that the enforcement agent did not do its job, did not hold the overseas investors to fulfil their purchase conditions. I think some genuine grievances have been caused by the enforcement agent, the Overseas Investment Commission, not enforcing the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe enforcement agent assured the Finance and Expenditure Committee that that was due to the fact that it does not have a set of effective tools to monitor the situation. I raised this issue in the Committee stage with the Minister of Finance. I am still not happy with some of the wording in the legislation: the regulator \u201Cmay\u201D require information to enable it to monitor those investments; it \u201Cmay\u201D ask for information. I am assured by the Minister of Finance that the Overseas Investment Commission, or the regulator\u2014which from now on is to be transferred from the Reserve Bank to Land Information New Zealand\u2014will use this legislation to enforce the conditions that the investors agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ETo say that some of the arguments offered by New Zealand First were entertaining is to be charitable. The New Zealand First member seemed not to understand that successful people who invest in business do not want to dismantle the business, do not want to lock up the business. They want to expand it. If they make an investment, they want a return. When overseas investors purchase a business in New Zealand they employ people, they use consultants, and they purchase supplies from New Zealand. If the business makes a loss, they have to take that loss. If it makes a profit\u2014why not? I do not think New Zealand wants to be known as a country where every investment will return a loss. Of course we want to show New Zealand as a country where people who invest will find it profitable. They will pay their fair share of tax, because we have tax legislation; we have legislation that all businesses have to comply with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut there is another issue that we have to think about. I am sure that Peter Brown would take another call in this third reading. What if the Government passed a law to say that Mr Brown is allowed to sell his property to a certain sector only, or is not allowed to sell his property to anybody\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022715d4e5522ef4401b8f4cbf3c291842e\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What does China do now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207de08721993447fbdc27acf966ce508\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, I have just complimented Dail Jones. He would have been a proud member of Communist China under Chairman Mao. Chairman Mao would have been proud of Dail Jones and the New Zealand First members\u2019 speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ec7d92c1b04a3690ff9d9966ef26bd\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What does China do now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44fd8e3b6734f00b9879c6070a17d0d\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: I am not too sure why that member keeps asking me about Chinese legislation. I can answer that I know New Zealand law much better. The member consistently has a problem. That member of Parliament apparently is not interested in what is going on in New Zealand. I feel really happy that New Zealand First takes so much interest in China and is pro-Chinese and pro-China. What a wonderful thing to discover tonight. One can always discover something. New Zealand First is pro - Chairman Mao and pro-Chinese. I think that is a wonderful discovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe only complication in the passage of this bill was self-imposed by David Parker. At the select committee David Parker had this great idea about how to lose his seat of Otago to National\u2019s Jacqui Dean. Jacqui Dean will be a great member in the next parliamentary term. David Parker introduced a provision to create marginal strips around sensitive land such as lakes and rivers. But there is a problem. Labour wanted to create a marginal strip and give no compensation. Members should just imagine that a New Zealand landowner is trying to sell a piece of land from his or her farm to an overseas investor, when suddenly a marginal strip is imposed on the property. How would that affect the selling price? David Parker seemed to think it does not matter. And I was told he is a lawyer! That is when I thought that maybe the next Parliament should welcome in more accountants and economists. Maybe they would understand the issue better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAt this stage I acknowledge that at least United Future woke up to that, even if belatedly. Its members said in the select committee that they did not like it, but they were not prepared to stand up for their principles at that point in time, and they let the bill go through the select committee. But, belatedly, they did closed-door negotiations with Labour, and Labour has backed off from the provisions to take a marginal strip without compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI finish by sharing why National can see some point in marginal strips being imposed on land purchased by overseas investors. My good colleague the Hon David Carter said that overseas investors might not understand that under New Zealand culture landowners allow access by the public, particularly to iconic sites. Marginal strips can be justified on that basis, but imposing them without compensation is simply not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe welcome the introduction of the Supplementary Order Paper amendment that removes that draconian provision of creating marginal strips without compensation, and now National will support the passage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022a98b3f9bbe82487182c053c4f5a78ea0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a98b3f9bbe82487182c053c4f5a78ea0\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to meet the challenge of Mr Simon Power, and to support the bill as the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which considered the bill. I draw on a couple of points. This is a good bill, because, as Dr Cullen said, it tightens the enforcement regime in respect of the purchase by foreigners of New Zealand lands and other assets and investments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI want to touch on one thing, which is that the Overseas Investment Commission will now be absorbed into Land Information New Zealand. This is a good thing, because, as the Minister pointed out, the commission has a staff of about five. Once it goes into Land Information New Zealand, of course there will be a greater resource of personnel who will be able to enforce the provisions in the agreements that are put in place for overseas investors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EOne of the biggest concerns from submitters to the Finance and Expenditure Committee was that when overseas purchasers come to do the deal, to build the lodge or whatever, to employ X number of people, and to create economic growth and wealth, those commitments are not necessarily met. I think that concern has historically been quite valid. One of the committee members, Janet Mackey, pointed out that there was an investment in her patch where those commitments, as written in the agreements, had not been met. I think even the odd member of New Zealand First\u2014or one member\u2014would agree with that. Historically, overseas investors have come over and invested, said they will employ people, and said they will create jobs. They have done the deal, if you will, but have not lived up to the obligations. The feedback we got from a lot of the Kiwis who came to the committee was that they do not mind overseas investment, but if overseas investors are obligated to do certain things, then they should do them. So this bill seeks to tighten up that enforcement mechanism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI see that the Greens are opposed, in their minority report, to the Overseas Investment Commission being absorbed within Land Information New Zealand. I have to ask why. Land Information New Zealand has more people, more resources, and more specialists to enforce agreements\u2014to stomp the country if necessary and ensure that investors have lived up to and are meeting their obligations, such as employing people, building the lodge, creating some jobs, and creating some wealth for the country. I would have thought it was difficult to argue against those tighter enforcement measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThen we have New Zealand First, which is opposed to any purchase by any foreigner of any asset, investment, or land in New Zealand. As the Minister pointed out, that is totally illogical. The last one out switches the lights off if we call a halt to any international investment in land in this country. The New Zealand First members say no. Again, I think most Kiwis would not agree with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis bill in total seeks to lessen the bureaucracy. It seeks to lessen day-to-day ministerial intervention in minor land purchases\u2014over whether someone can purchase a piece of land to put a supermarket on, as the Minister said. I think this is a good bill. The Finance and Expenditure Committee members on both sides worked very, very hard to try to meet some of the concerns that New Zealanders put up. I think citizens in this country do not mind foreign investment if obligations are met by the investor. One of the things the committee has been at pains to do is to ensure that there are mechanisms in the bill that will meet that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI conclude on one other point. There was a bizarre occasion at the committee when the Green member Rod Donald put up the following proposition. Say a foreign investor bought a flour mill\u2014I think that was the example Mr Donald used\u2014and then the market for flour went belly up. That investor was obligated to employ people to grind and produce flour, but could not meet those obligations because the market had gone belly up. Mr Donald said that if the foreign investor wanted to close the factory down and turn it into a different business\u2014a shoe-making factory, for example\u2014it should not be allowed. I have a couple of colleagues here who were on the committee, and I have to say that we found that proposition rather bizarre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. It meets a lot of the concerns that New Zealanders have, and I support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u00220eb3af3e50334c7db570c1e6c71fd9d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eb3af3e50334c7db570c1e6c71fd9d3\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking in the third reading debate of the Overseas Investment Bill, I point out to the House that apart from the Government, which has to keep its numbers up, New Zealand First is the only Opposition party that has been keeping its numbers up and it is the only Opposition party that is truly passionate about fighting against the Government on this bill. The National Party has been voting at about 19 or 20 all day long. The Greens, ACT, and United Future are voting down at about five. It is just ridiculous that they get up in this House and say how passionately they are against this bill in so many ways. The National Party, which has been saying how bad the bill is, went and voted for it. What they are doing\u2014and my colleague Dail Jones alluded to this earlier\u2014is positioning themselves for a coalition. The National and Labour parties are showing New Zealand that they really are together on these issues and that they really are in unison as far as foreign ownership is concerned. The chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Mr Clayton Cosgrove, has not been here all day as we have been speaking to this bill. He is in the same boat as the other parties and is just as bad as the other parties that were voting down\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f293cbe6ba44720a638a6f4c1a92ed0\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I know that Mr Cosgrove does not need my assistance on these matters, but it is completely contrary to the Standing Orders for a member to refer at any time to the absence of any member from this Chamber. The member should be reminded of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208d2f3f71c0143daa9ea61fe307c7d8c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. He is quite right on that. Perhaps the member would like to address the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98691403a234dd0800986b71aacd566\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate your ruling, Madam Speaker, as far as that is concerned, but I felt I was addressing the bill in the sense that New Zealand First is the only party that has voted consistently with its full numbers all day long. It has been putting its money where its mouth is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc026b7ce8ed41e3ba65925b3ff6b7d4\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I know that in this Chamber the convention is that we cannot question a member\u2019s word, but it will clearly be recorded in Hansard, of course, that United Future has consistently voted 8, which is our number of members, all day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb01ca25e7ae427e80b8b48f340545dc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not a point of order, but it was an interesting point of information. Maybe we could get to the substance of the bill, if the member would like to continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248bbfcbe8e994e9f816ae9fa3fc0e763\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7400792527d426fabcecda1ff6b1f3c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on the point of order, but if it is a new point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d930db5675c4eaa96a59118e98758f4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I just draw the House\u2019s attention to the fact that the honourable member is not in the Opposition\u2014he actually supports the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885eb8351dcf43b1bcab0be282354fc1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; this is getting a little silly. Let us get on with the substance of the debate please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b30417e56c324339a3424fe707fd3929\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of National and Labour\u2014Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber\u2014being the same and joining together in coalition on this issue, I have to say they are not voting together just on this bill. The Hon Dr Nick Smith from the National Party has put up a member\u2019s bill\u2014it is in the Local Government and Environment Committee at the moment\u2014that basically makes the same amendment that David Parker has tried to implement into this bill. David Parker probably agrees with me on that. It is basically the same issue. That was one issue in this bill that National said it would vote against, but a member of National has put up a bill, which National has voted for, that makes basically the exact same amendment that David Parker has put up. [Interruption] I say to Mr Parker that New Zealand First voted against that. New Zealand First does not change its position for political expediency. We do not do those kinds of things. Mr Parker put forward the amendment, probably after the call-up from Michael Cullen and the spin doctors up on the ninth floor. They would have said that Labour was in trouble on this bill and that they needed to put their heads together to make it at least look as though they were trying to be tough on foreign ownership and trying to protect New Zealanders and New Zealand\u2019s interests. They decided to have a look at Nick Smith\u2019s bill. David Parker thought he would tweak it a little bit and tinker with it so that it could be slightly different, then Labour chucked that in this bill. It is quite ironic that National and Labour\u2014Tweedledum and Tweedledee\u2014are joining together and doing the same thing they did in the 1980s and 1990s. It is just like when they jointly sold $16 billion worth of State-owned assets and $10 billion per year in profits went overseas. The National and Labour members think that that was a great thing for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI want to say one other thing about David Parker\u2019s amendment. Whether or not one agrees with the amendment\u2014Richard Prebble will probably agree with me; he can tell me whether he does or whether he does not\u2014the fact is that Labour should have decided whether it would let foreign investors into our economy or buy certain pieces of land. It should have made up its mind and decided\u2014yes or no. But it did not. It has tried to find this halfway house\u2014this kind of \u201CMugabe amendment\u201D\u2014and say to foreigners that they can come in and buy our land but that the Government will take a little bit of it back. It should decide\u2014yes or no. That is what I am saying. That is what this Government has tried to do. That is what the National Party is trying to do with Nick Smith\u2019s bill. National members are trying to say that they do not agree with this, but they do, because they have shown their true colours in Nick Smith\u2019s bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI want to highlight another issue. It takes us back to the first reading debate, when the Labour member Dover Samuels, the member for Te Tai Tokerau, talked about this great utopia, this great, amazing thing, that is going on in Northland. Foreigners are coming in and buying golf courses up in the far north. He was saying how great it is, because they are employing M\u0101ori to mow the lawns and cut the trees and hedges. He thought that that was a great thing. As I was hearing that, I could not believe it. Labour wants to make New Zealand a little Mexico. That is what this Government wants to do. This Government, along with the National Party and other parties in this House, want to subject the people of the far north\u2014the people whom Dover Samuels represents\u2014to being just the hired help. That is what they want to do. That is just what happens in Mexico City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI flew into Mexico City myself quite a few times a few years ago. We saw Mexicans running around in their little Coca-Cola vans, and big, beautiful Coke signs were all around the place. Those Mexicans were earning 50c an hour\u2014and where did the money go? It went straight back to the United States, where the wealth is. That is what this Labour Government and the National Party\u2014Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber\u2014want to do. That is what they are proving with this bill. They are showing it to the people of New Zealand. The Government has come up with some stupid amendment\u2014some \u201CMugabe clause\u201D. It is in the name of Michael Cullen, but we know that David Parker pushed it. It is some kind of \u201CMugabe clause\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a28877c1c7842788c071a7e5bf9b1e9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; I must intervene here. I understand that offence has already been taken at a reference to Mugabe in a previous speech in the debate. I ask the member to withdraw that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ca1b108e77945fba7ec21a4d628cdb4\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. I am trying to say, without using the exact name of that person, that Labour is basically trying to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206c926082919472fafc716e12e2b2220\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am sorry, but I am having great difficulty understanding that particular ruling. The member said that the amendment was a \u201CMugabe clause\u201D. Are we protecting Mr Mugabe by not using that phrase because he is another member of the Commonwealth? Is that the reason for the ruling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655bc25f6dd6423ca88be77af622aada\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the reason for the ruling is that previously in this debate offence was taken by a member at a reference to Mugabe, and the member who made that other reference was asked to withdraw it. So in the interests of consistency, it seemed to me that that was appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ddd58968c284daea2ce24f8603f6076\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is a new point of order. I would really like you to think about it, because it appears to me that one can describe a clause of a bill in the strongest possible terms. It seems to me that a member could describe a clause as being a \u201CMugabe clause\u201D, and that it would not be out of order to say that an honourable member is supporting a \u201CMugabe clause\u201D. What would be out of order is to say that an honourable member is a Mr Mugabe, or is a Nazi, or something. But to say that the clause is a \u201CMugabe clause\u201D appears to me to be valid. I raise this because I think it is quite important to be able to do that. In fact, I disagree with nearly all of Mr McNair\u2019s speech except the statement that the clause is a \u201CMugabe clause\u201D, and I think the honourable member should be allowed to say that it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223374e1e3713c4983abc44e7436375cf4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that comment. If Mr McNair had just left it at that, it would have been fine. But he linked the remark with a specific member, and that member had previously objected to that reference. If Mr McNair had just left it at that, you would be quite right, and I would not have intervened. I ask the member to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a8f4315f214076ae1968ac2ed73aef\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: This is the kind of outrageous bill we are talking about. I want to finish up with what United Future and Labour voted for in the commentary on this bill, which states: \u201CThe majority does not consider it necessary that all of the overseas investors involved in a particular transaction have relevant business experience and acumen.\u201D Further down, it states: \u201CSuch an appointment may be made to recognise local customary roles and traditions,\u201D. This is the kind of craziness that we find in this bill. There are no rules. The Government does not care who comes in. They will find any excuse to let whomever in. That is what this Government is all about. That is what this Government and the National Party\u2014the coalition parties, Labour and National\u2014are doing with this bill. New Zealand First says it is outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002236b5c5e37cd842e281b80a157e8ffa4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236b5c5e37cd842e281b80a157e8ffa4a\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E It will take less than 30 seconds to show the illogicality of the previous speaker\u2019s statements. He criticised amendments to the bill that would have imposed preconditions on eventually permitted sales to overseas parties as being improper, but he backs the total prohibition of the same sales. New Zealand First backs the total prohibition of sales of rural land to foreigners, yet it opposes the imposition of conditions relating to access. The two positions are irreconcilable. That took 30 seconds. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00223bb2c438a2624df4b81d6cb8c76a35fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bb2c438a2624df4b81d6cb8c76a35fc\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry that Mr Parker did not take longer. It is not often that one gets an opportunity to speak at one\u2019s own funeral, and I think he should have taken it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223497127edeea4cbea42baf8c407766bc\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3f2f43d66044710b7ef08b3264d84b5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, this bill most certainly is Mr Parker\u2019s funeral. Here is a member who is so ideological he does not understand what is in the best interests of his own constituents. I do not know whether Mr Copeland would like me to quote him, so perhaps I will not, but I will say that other members have questioned whether Mr Parker is aware of the fact that property values in his electorate have gone up because people have been able to sell their land to whomever they want. The passage of this bill will damage not just one person who was unable to put through a property sale; it will damage the value of every property in Central Otago. We need to ask on whose behalf Mr Parker thought he was acting. That is his first problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHis second difficulty is that he was prepared to support an amendment whereby the State would take away property without paying compensation. That is one of the criticisms that is made of Mr Mugabe. Indeed, I am sure Mr Parker is aware of that, and I am certain that when it comes to Zimbabwe he is strongly opposed to the actions of Mr Mugabe. That is the contradiction that has been drawn to his attention. He has managed with this bill to offend every single constituency. He has offended the liberals, the conservatives, and those who own property\u2014he has managed to offend everyone. I understand that the National Party has a rather good candidate in his electorate. I cannot remember her name, but I am told she is pretty good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4de7f8fec634bf78ed4bd3971fa297c\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Jacqui Dean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beb4e1810ced407ba17d480f620ec8ea\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Her name is Jacqui Dean. I am sure she would not take just 30 seconds. Then again, given Mr Parker\u2019s position, 30 seconds was probably the longest he could speak without making a further fool of himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280ae10333dad4afebae6baee0af0d380\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: 1.8 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e2d3ccae1b445f1a13e937edb6da2aa\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member thinks that the truth of a proposition is in its polling numbers. If that is so, then he will accept his defeat with grace, will he not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ELet me turn to the bill itself. Firstly, the Minister of Finance is correct in saying that some provisions in the bill bring about some liberalisation. The law at present requires Ministers to plough through proposals that everyone knows will be agreed to. Who thinks a supermarket in Dargaville is a bad thing? Only someone who does not live in Dargaville or in another area without a supermarket would think that not having one was a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223782239cfb134db3a4f71a2696fd983d\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Woolworths did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249f7b2d4642d4079b3aaa567e4728e63\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The supermarket operator\u2019s opponents may object, but apart from another supermarket operator, everyone would agree that such a proposal is desirable. It is desirable to have a law that does not involve that sort of nonsense. But having said that, I must say that a great deal of this bill is completely irrational. The ACT party finds itself opposing the bill not for the reasons given by New Zealand First, which are, frankly, xenophobic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b47784e0ad44451485f3c9263aa97e08\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a349c5e231f6447ca38731ea163b3b9a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The Green member interjects\u2014and I am not objecting to that\u2014to say that he is not xenophobic. I hate to break it to him but, in fact, the Green Party has expressed exactly those sorts of sentiments. I join with Mr Trotter in saying that it is a great disappointment to see that a party that was elected to this Parliament as a green party on environmental issues has decided that it wants to keep itself here by making ridiculous xenophobic statements against foreigners and suggesting that foreigners, and foreigners alone, are somehow an attack on the New Zealand environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Donald that overseas investors actually have a better record than New Zealanders on a whole range of things. Let me give just one example, which New Zealand First may identify with. We had a case known as the wine-box case in which a number of companies entered into a number of interesting arrangements to get out of paying taxes. Not one of those companies was an overseas company. All of them were New Zealand companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bed16c6df1643e88a7045a2c090f466\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Including State-owned enterprises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233fce85f91b7461aa4665e70e6a589b9\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Of course\u2014State-owned enterprises are well known for trying to avoid tax. When I was the Minister for State-owned Enterprises I discovered that a number of State-owned enterprises had gone into the sorts of tax arrangements that made the wine box look like nothing at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe point I am making is that overseas investors tend to be much more careful about obeying the law. There are some quite logical reasons why they should be. Just because a large number of submitters came before the Finance and Expenditure Committee and said that overseas investors do not obey the law does not make it true. Repeating a lie does not make it true. The evidence shows that overseas investors follow our laws. The evidence shows also that New Zealand is a much wealthier country today as a result of overseas investment. Dr Cullen is absolutely right\u2014New Zealanders do not save enough. If we were to follow the logic of New Zealand First and the Green Party, this country would be much, much poorer today. I tell Mr Donald that there is no doubt about that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ccd24f2988d49f3984eb4aabecd8b28\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: I agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265727c59652f49b3b852b6151f8c73c0\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Donald now says we should save more. He thinks that by preventing overseas investment coming here, somehow we will be able to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. That is nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EFirstly, the ACT party is opposed to restrictions on private property. If one owns a property, one ought to be able to sell it to whomever one chooses, not just to those to whom Mr Donald and Mr Peters think it should be sold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe second thing is this. We already have in this country a Securities Commission, monopolies laws, and a Companies Act. We have no shortage of regulations and controls that exist on investment. No case has been put up by any member, including those from the Government or the National Party, as to why there should be extra restrictions on people just because of their passport. No such argument has been raised, and that is why the ACT party is totally opposed to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWe can see absolutely no reason for it, and it is a matter of regret that the bill can go through only because the two old parties support it\u2014for electoral reasons, I think, not because they believe it. Dr Cullen does not believe in the bill and John Key certainly does not believe in it. The bill will go through because the two old parties looked at the polls and saw how well Mr Peters does in his anti-foreigner rants\u2014helped by the Green Party, which is disgraceful in the case of that party, because at least it is a party that claims to represent principle; Mr Peters never hides the fact that he is a straight-out populist. The two old parties are pandering to the fact that there are many people in the country who have an irrational fear of foreigners. Shame on both those parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThat is the reason why the ACT party is voting against the measure. We do not actually need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022 data-id=\u00222b45afc89e764d1d8cd6ad37e1a323e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b45afc89e764d1d8cd6ad37e1a323e9\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is opposed to the plans of Labour and National to make it even easier for foreign investors to buy up our land, our buildings, and our businesses. We are not alone. Most New Zealanders remain opposed to the sell-off of businesses like Telecom New Zealand and Contact Energy to foreign investors. Most New Zealanders can see what a mess our rail network ended up in after foreign investors milked it dry. Most New Zealanders are not happy that more and more iconic land such as Young Nicks Head is being bought up by foreign investors who treat our country as a plaything. Young farmers are upset that the dream of owning their own farm is receding, because increasing overseas investment means farmland is being priced out of reach and beyond its agricultural earning capacity. Holidaymakers are finding that their favourite camping spots at the beach are no longer there because foreign investors have bought them up and built their mansions where Kiwis used to play. First home buyers are being deprived of their dream of owning their own home, because foreign investors are outbidding Kiwis at the bottom end of the property market as well as at the top. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ESo much for Labour\u2019s ownership society. Any assistance the Government provides first home buyers fades into insignificance when one considers that property purchasing power, which is measured in terms of average house price versus average wage, is half what it was 25 years ago. That is because foreign capital has artificially inflated house prices, and that foreign capital has also driven up New Zealand\u2019s current account deficit, which has made mortgage interest rates 1 to 2 percent higher than they otherwise would be. This double whammy is a direct result of the liberal foreign investment regime of National and Labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIt is extraordinary that this Labour Government is proud that New Zealand has such a liberal regime. Dr Cullen said so in New York last November. That position is in stark contrast with the statement of Labour leader, Helen Clark, on 4 June 1995. Then, she said: \u201CLabour would be strongly opposing the National Government\u2019s efforts to liberalise restrictions on the foreign purchases of New Zealand land.\u201D She also said that the Government of the time\u2014a National Government\u2014was completely out of touch with the strong views of the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders, who considered that encouraging more foreign purchases was unacceptable. As far as the Green Party is aware\u2014and that is backed up by the 7,000 people who signed our petition calling for tighter rules on foreign investment\u2014New Zealanders are just as opposed to increasing land sales to foreign buyers as they were 10 years ago. Now it is the Labour Government\u2014not a National Government\u2014that is out of touch and is pushing an unacceptable agenda on to the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EWe can only speculate\u2014and I will in a minute\u2014as to what has induced Miss Clark to change her mind so radically on this matter. In the Green Party\u2019s view, she was right then and she is wrong now. Indeed, there is even more reason to be opposed to increasing foreign ownership, as the last 10 years\u2019 bitter experience can attest. Only yesterday, Dr Cullen admitted to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that it would cost the taxpayer much more than the $200 million already allocated to fix the rail network, which was left in a decrepit state by its former foreign owners, who ran down the network, milked all the profits they could, and took the money and ran. Surely, that costly experience should be enough for Labour to understand that New Zealand\u2019s foreign investment rules are not tight enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EThe so-called good-character test is a sham. Foreign buyers of businesses should have to meet at least the same national interest test that foreign land buyers need to pass. If companies like Juken Nissho had to sit even the weak national interest test we have now, they would fail. Juken Nissho operates wood-processing plants in Kait\u0101ia, Masterton, and Gisborne. It has a horrifying health and safety record. It had 269 serious harm notifications from 1995 to 2003, and 11 convictions under the Health and Safety Act, with fines ranging from $6,000 to $10,000. In 1997 Juken Nissho was prosecuted for exceeding permitted emissions at its Kait\u0101ia plant. There are numerous complaints from neighbours about the effect on their health. An analysis of Juken Nissho\u2019s New Zealand accounts from 1999 to 2003 shows that it reported losses and paid no tax. It was totally debt-financed, and under normal circumstances it would be insolvent. Many of the company\u2019s transactions appear to occur through related parties, and may provide a way to shift profits offshore and to avoid tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ESo why does Labour want more investment from companies that behave so badly? Why does Labour refuse to introduce a code of corporate responsibility that would hold the Juken Nisshos of this world to account? A responsibility code for foreign investors is neither a radical idea nor a new one. New Zealand is already a signatory to the OECD guidelines for multinational enterprises. Indeed, our Government has undertaken to promote the guidelines, although there has been little noticeable activity. This is unfortunate, because the June 2000 revisions contain, in the words of Australian Treasurer Peter Costello, who was chairman of the ministerial committee, \u201Cfar-reaching changes that reinforce the economic, social, and environmental elements of the sustainable development agenda.\u201D Given that the Government endorsed those OECD guidelines at the time, the Greens believe that the Government should incorporate them into even more explicit legislation that must also include penalties\u2014and not the light-handed ones in this bill\u2014for corporations that do not meet their responsibilities. Those penalties should be serious, so that corporations that do not meet their responsibilities are held to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003ELabour will not do what most of its own supporters want because it wants to keep onside with the big boys\u2019 club, rather than with the citizens of New Zealand. That is clear, because we know from the General Agreement on Trade in Services negotiations that a major demand of our trading partners is for us to scrap the Overseas Investment Commission. That is exactly what the bill does, and it will allow foreign firms and individuals almost unrestricted access to New Zealand property and businesses. So the big boys\u2019 club will be happy, as will the United States, which made it clear in its free-trade negotiations with Australia that it wanted to reduce or eliminate restrictions on overseas investment. If the United States wanted it for there, it will want it for here as well, which means that Labour is in a better position to do a deal with George Bush and to cuddle up to the Americans for a free-trade deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, we should not forget that foreign investors already control half of the New Zealand sharemarket, that 41 of the top 100 companies operating in New Zealand are 100 percent foreign-owned, that over 1 million hectares of land is already foreign-owned, including at least 157,000 hectares of high-country leasehold, 2,720 hectares of offshore islands, and 57 kilometres of coastline. Those figures do not disclose ownership below the threshold, or undeclared purchases. As a former Overseas Investment Commission staff member, Mark Dunlop, said in his submission, his experience has left him \u201Cwith the distinct impression that there is widespread evasion of our overseas investment rules relating to land.\u201D That revelation highlights the need for a proper monitoring regime, so that the true extent of foreign ownership is disclosed. We know from Statistics New Zealand that foreign investment in New Zealand now exceeds $208 billion, and that the cost of that investment in the form of interest and dividends reached $8.9 billion for the 2004 calendar year. It is no wonder that New Zealand\u2019s current account deficit was $9.3 billion for the same period. That is unsustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EI do agree with Dr Cullen on one thing\u2014we Kiwis need to increase our savings rate if we are ever going to reverse that appalling situation, and get our economy out of the red and back in the black. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003EIn closing, I have to say that for all New Zealand First members\u2019 bluff and bluster, they acted like lambs when it came to this bill. They did not put up any of their own amendments, and they did not support the majority of my amendments. The Green Party proposed improving the scrutiny on foreign investment by changing the rule from 25 percent ownership to 10 percent; New Zealand First opposed that. We wanted to extend the coverage to aquaculture; New Zealand First opposed that. We wanted to reduce the threshold from $100 million to $10 million; New Zealand First opposed that. We wanted to bring in Crown pastoral leases; New Zealand First opposed that. We wanted to extend the national interest test to significant business assets; New Zealand First opposed that. We wanted to bring in import substitution as a criterion; New Zealand First opposed that. All in all, New Zealand First is all bluff and bluster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002218355474090f4dadaef1f0b5bfebb2c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218355474090f4dadaef1f0b5bfebb2c4\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to use my third reading speech on the Overseas Investment Bill just to tie up a few loose ends from my point of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe first I would like to mention is that during the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s consideration of this bill, I spent quite some time wrestling with the good character test set out in the bill\u2014namely, that one of the criteria that has to be satisfied is that foreign people who are buying business assets of more than $100 million in this country are of good character. I wanted to explore the possibility of putting something in the bill that would actually stop a repeat of the disastrous New Zealand Rail sale. In other words, I wanted to think of a way whereby we could maybe safeguard ourselves, to ensure that we would not sell our large companies again to investors who were merely asset-strippers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe officials working on the bill were very patient in that regard. They went away and got a lot of information. They came back and they told us about our World Trade Organization obligations, our various free-trade obligations, and so on and so forth. But the clincher for me in the end, of course, was just to realise, as the Hon Richard Prebble pointed out, that the problem with the New Zealand Rail sale was not that it was made to overseas buyers or foreign investors but that it was made to a consortium that included Fay Richwhite\u2014New Zealanders. It was Fay Richwhite\u2014and I say this under the privilege of this House\u2014that then led the charge, disgracefully, to strip out every single dollar that New Zealand Rail had, and to leave our rail system in disarray to the great detriment of New Zealand and its citizens. It was a disgraceful action, but it was actually perpetrated on New Zealanders by other New Zealanders who had given in to unbridled greed, and who were quite prepared to make money at the expense of their fellow citizens. I believe that that was a disgraceful episode in New Zealand\u2019s history. It was the unacceptable face of capitalism, yet it was not done by foreigners but by New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ERod Donald mentioned that 41 of our top 100 corporations in this country are foreign-owned\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276e5382a0d764c68b0a65b78c69db889\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: 100 percent foreign-owned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6f6a7a2029a44069379d093d874d606\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014100 percent foreign-owned, and I would like to ask him whether there is any problem with that. Are any of those companies asset-stripping? I think most of them are doing a very, very good job. They are good corporate citizens and they are making a huge contribution to this country. We do not need in any way to restrict their operations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want the New Zealand First members to think this through for a moment. Why do they conclude that people born in this nation somehow have superior characters and business ethics to people from overseas? Really, when I analyse it, I tell those members that the bottom line is that it is xenophobia\u2014it is xenophobia pure and simple, and they cannot escape that conclusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb3f73211ba499b8d3d43648f2da3dd\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Given that the member has just specifically addressed his question to New Zealand First, could I ask, through you, that he yield the floor and allow me to answer that question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ba138b36e284a849465e2497fef23c3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There will be an opportunity for New Zealand First to respond. That is not a point of order; it is a debating matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3196844fea4b9aabc7ad6a3b3c8128\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: As we all know in life, sometimes the truth hurts. The other thing I really want to recognise, though, as a New Zealander, is that one of the great things about growing up in this country and being a New Zealand citizen is the freedom we have. We have the freedom to leave this country at any time. I have the freedom to leave here if I want to, to go overseas and live there, and, hopefully, to buy a home there, and so on and so forth. That is something we value when it comes to us, but we do not seem prepared to extend the same freedom to other people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWhen we think about it, we realise that a restriction on freedom like that in any part of the world is a danger to world freedom, world democracy, and basic fundamental human rights. We saw that kind of thing existing in the world under communism, where those countries built walls to keep their people in. It exists in Cuba today. Cubans cannot go overseas, and until quite recent times most Chinese could not go overseas. That is actually what we are talking about here\u2014the basic, fundamental human right for people to be able to travel freely, invest freely, and interconnect as equal human beings with equal dignity, and I resist very, very strongly any attempt in this House or in New Zealand outside this House to categorise people on the basis of nationality, origin, race, colour, or language. Such categorisation is seriously wrong and needs to stop. I hope one day that more of our fellow citizens will come to that simple conclusion, and will start to treat all people in the world with the dignity and respect that is their inherent, God-given right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to make another point, too, which I think was unconsciously made by Rod Donald. He said this bill is such a terrible animal that the day could come when people from overseas could buy up all the assets New Zealand has. It just showed me how much he misunderstands the process of buying and selling assets. Because of course, if that were to happen, the net result would be that we New Zealanders would be the wealthiest people on the face of the earth. We would have sold our assets at top dollar to other people, and would have greater wealth and huge assets. I make that point because people seem to misunderstand that if we try to stop foreign investment, at the same time we deny New Zealanders the right to get a decent price for their properties. There are two sides to the equation, and it is time, I think, that the Greens in particular, and New Zealand First, woke up to the fact that when one buys and sells there are two parties to the process. It is mutually beneficial, which is why people buy and sell by agreement, and the funds that swap hands are going from out of the pockets of foreigners into the pockets of New Zealanders. How that can be bad for this country is beyond me to understand. It simply leaves me to say that the analysis and understanding that go into that opposition are shallow in the extreme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EOne other loose end I would like to mention is to do with the Hon Nick Smith\u2019s Overseas Investment (Queen\u2019s Chain Extension) Amendment Bill, which arose out of the unsatisfactory situation on D\u2019Urville Island. As Clayton Cosgrove has pointed out, this bill ensures that that unsatisfactory situation will not be repeated in the future. It brings in a very, very strong enforcement regime, with powers given to the court, powers to set aside contracts, etc., to ensure that non-resident New Zealanders who buy sensitive land in this country will be forced to carry through with the conditions that apply to that privilege. I think that is a very, very good move, and I think that the situation that arose in D\u2019Urville Island was totally satisfactory. We did not have legislation previously with enough teeth to ensure that people who undertook obligations were forced to actually carry them through. There were no consequences of departing from the terms of the approval given, and that has now been fixed in this bill. If we really think it through, we know that it makes Nick Smith\u2019s member\u2019s bill redundant, so we should bring it back to the House and discharge it. The problem he identified\u2014quite correctly, by the way\u2014has now been fixed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002296850b37745a4886b6a613bcd9920ce0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296850b37745a4886b6a613bcd9920ce0\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E Here we are on \u201C14 June\u201D at 9 o\u2019clock, and I thank the Government for taking us into urgency because it enables the National Party to build the collegial spirit that is so important when a party is about to go into Government. National members are very appreciative of that opportunity. We support this bill for the reasons I am about to outline. I cannot understand the attack that was made upon me by Gordon Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022223f140a8819439abff2c55f0c2efa63\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s the Deputy Prime Minister of Britain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5c56a00d4b40a5864834506101e4b8\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brown, I apologise\u2014Peter Brown. Members can see how badly he has wounded me; I cannot even remember the member\u2019s name. However, I said I could not understand that attack, and I still struggle with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EPeter Brown said I had built an argument that anyone can come to New Zealand regardless of any criteria, invest in this country, and then take those resources out of this country and suck the country dry. I refer the member to my Hansard record, which will specifically state that I welcome foreign investment into this country, subject to it meeting strict criteria, and those criteria were set down in this bill. That is why National agrees with the thrust of this bill. It was not lost on me that Peter Brown was building an argument that there should be no foreigners or foreign capital coming into New Zealand. There he was, espousing that in his strong English accent. The irony of that might have been lost on the members of New Zealand First, but it certainly was not lost on me. I notice that Dail Jones has not jumped up to make an argument either, given that he was born in Pakistan, as I recall. Of course, members of the National Party are not as difficult to deal with as some members of New Zealand First. We welcome the New Zealand First members to New Zealand and to Parliament, because their diversity adds to our rich tapestry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ESome of the arguments I have heard from members who are opposed to this bill remind me of Luddites who would like to turn the clock back. People who want to come to New Zealand to invest\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa44c1ea90744e398b5b46ce53d4556\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The honourable member opened his speech by attacking Gordon Brown, I think it was, the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Britain, but he then went on to say that in very short order he would explain why National supports this bill. He is running out of time, and we are sitting here keenly waiting to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2589b078e1c4242b026255b5780310c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order. I do not need any assistance with this. [Interruption] That is not a point of order, either, but I am sure the member is about to get to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5829d65ab324e12a9194677eb5b7ef6\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: I will now turn my attention to the bill. The bill will guarantee that New Zealand\u2019s assets will be protected, not just for the benefit of the current generation but also for future generations, because it will continue to build on New Zealand\u2019s reputation for encouraging foreign investment in this country. Those members who would build the argument that foreign investment is not important, or that it has not made a contribution to New Zealand, really do not have a very good understanding of economics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EArguments were built that New Zealanders were missing out on the ability to buy high-country stations. As Dr Cullen pointed out\u2014and I do not find myself agreeing with him very often, but he was right on this occasion\u2014how many ordinary blokes can run down to the South Island and buy a high-country station? Very few ordinary blokes can. A few people get together, form syndicates, and buy high-country stations, but very few ordinary people can do that. There are some clear exceptions, and they were detailed in my earlier calls when I spoke on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022209010dd9059404fb081ad721a9a4558\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Lockwood Smith could buy one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227acebeabdae9463a9b1792295902d1f4\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: I would not say he is an ordinary bloke. He is a strong contributing member of the National Party, which does not make him ordinary\u2014it makes him outstanding. The point I want to make is that despite who was buying high-country stations in New Zealand, before foreign capital took over some of them, the stations were underperforming. They were hardly economic units. In short, they were undercapitalised. I say to Mr Mark that he and I know very well that a farm cannot be turned into a productive unit unless there is sufficient capital. As a result of foreign capital being introduced to some of the high-country stations, they are now strong contributors to the local community. They are employing not just one or two people but significant numbers of people, and are contributing to not only the farming economy but also the tourism economy of the area, because they have been able to diversify. That is what foreign capital does for the high-country farming areas around Canterbury, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI ask this question of members: where has the hysteria come from that says it does us harm when people come from overseas and buy our land? If one looks at most examples\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f80765cb23ac4f259661a2e0812bf559\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: $10 billion a year going out of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211dfc1aab30c40528a46bd457c174b07\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: We have listened to the member make a fool of himself, so he should just be quiet for a while. If one looks at most of the examples of land purchases, one sees the very converse of that takes place. Foreign investors come into New Zealand, risk their capital, and as a consequence jobs are created, infrastructure is developed, and no harm is done. The arguments presented by some members tonight are xenophobic. I am afraid that knowing some of those members as well as I do, I find it difficult to say that about them, but in this case I think it is very, very true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ELet us also talk about the idea that people are coming to this country and closing up high-country properties. The very converse of that is happening, in fact. The people who close the gates in high-country stations are members of the Department of Conservation, not foreign investors. Another example that Michael Cullen furnished was that of the singer Shania Twain. What has she done for access to the environment for people around Cromwell? She has created walkways and opened up that environment, so people have more access to that countryside than they ever had before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI just want to finish by drawing the House\u2019s attention to the \u201CMugabe clause\u201D. I termed it that, and I will not back off that one iota. That clause ran to 10 pages in this bill, and it suggested that the Government would annex private property from New Zealanders. I am not joking; that is what was being suggested. That in itself was bad, but even worse was that no compensation would have been offered at all. I ask members of this House to run the rule of fairness over that. Which Kiwi voters would have said that was fair? Very few. I do not hear barracking from the New Zealand First members now, because they know they could not get on to the hustings and say that they were defending that. It is simply not fair. Michael Cullen had to come to the rescue and introduce Supplementary Order Paper 376 in his name, which took right out of the legislation the \u201CMugabe clause\u201D that his colleagues in the Finance and Expenditure Committee were trying to foist on to the people of New Zealand. That is why the New Zealand National Party was strongly opposed to the bill in the first instance. Only when that clause was removed did National say it would lend support to what was otherwise a very sensible and well-argued bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca1c71663c24494ea31bba770fe59e9b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, I would ask members to keep the level of chatter down a bit, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00223d69a200cba7422d87bc7ac8ca120114\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d69a200cba7422d87bc7ac8ca120114\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that I do not know where that honourable member has been during this debate, because New Zealand First opposed that clause as strongly and as strenuously as the National Party did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222306b313f2b04e3392645a6d813f0b4e\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: And you opposed everything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44cf24946f54fc1a79afbed1aab0722\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We did, but we certainly were not having that bill put through with that clause in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EA few speeches ago, Clayton Cosgrove said that the average New Zealander does not mind foreign investment, as long as there are obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd2077044a6d49e995fc9a543b50e0ee\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: And they\u2019re enforced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022136ef4e270eb41f391b24363daf88078\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, he did not say that, but he is adding to it\u2014and they are enforced. That is exactly New Zealand First\u2019s position. We do not mind people coming here with suitcases of money, as long as they make a permanent commitment to this country to participate both economically and socially. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247859fa57024494987c6b9cdfd1a8cf9\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member have suitcases of money when he came in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022743caedddf3e4d64b70806179cd0a384\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I probably did not\u2014I had a trunkful. We live in a world where investment does advance the country, but there are many organisations in this country. Let me name a few that have taken their money offshore\u2014thanks, in large part, to the difficulties this Government imposes on them. Electricity lines companies cannot invest in electricity in this country, except in a modest way. So what are they looking at doing? They are investing in Australia\u2014as are some of our power companies. M\u0101ori corporations\u2014and my colleague Ron Mark will tell people more about this matter in some detail at some other time\u2014are looking at investing offshore because of the difficulties in investing here. Private fishing companies are looking at investing offshore. These are New Zealand entities that are keen to invest in this country, yet this Government\u2014helped by its old buddy, the National Party\u2014wants to open the door and let in anybody with any amount of money, and they can then move out. They can leave the money and move out. The ACT member Deborah Coddington said this afternoon that she did not mind being a waitress in a cafe, and that it would do us all good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First stands for controls and restrictions on foreign investment. We oppose making it easier for foreigners to come into this country, leave their money, buy the businesses, buy our homes, and buy our land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022121717e836924f92a36b9dbea22b2a25\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Tell them to leave the suitcases and go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f82b1c5d8fae42d9808714d3734c6631\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member might make light of it, but this is a serious issue, and it will be an issue that the average New Zealander will show his or her support for come the next election. In the next few weeks, average New Zealanders will show just where their thoughts are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDr Cullen was so hard up in his attempt to substantiate his facts that he had to refer to the French manager of the Arsenal Football Club, as a poor example. He had to refer to Arsene Wenger, the manager of Arsenal, as a poor example. Arsene Wenger has made an absolutely fabulous commitment to Britain. He lives there, he has put his life on the line, and he is doing a fantastic job for a major football club. I thought that that was actually a poor example to give, when one is trying to illustrate where things are going wrong, because, in fact, they have not gone wrong in that instance. [Interruption] The members muttering away behind me have confused foreigners coming here with their money, with people coming here who want to stay and invest in the country. New Zealand First has no problem at all with anybody coming here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224260e8c51b124bedb2a02076d9746ea9\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What did you bring with you to New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022699f9887ffb64245a3ae7e9075fab4f4\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member has asked a question that would take me too long to answer. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d237d3a4ef148b4b0515c4fbd1abf46\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let the member continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2c581ee9b9047b7933506b8a5be5d3f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The member should answer the Minister for Disability Issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201a2a0a74d3b44f28625f87584adbdc3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member ship the money out of the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55c831ab2774319a0512396a700d414\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I will answer the member with a disability. Never have I shipped money out of the country for any ulterior motive. This is a serious issue, and New Zealand First is very strong on having restrictions on just anybody coming here to take over our businesses and our homes. It raises the cost of business in this country, the cost of homes, and the cost of land, and puts them beyond the reach of the average New Zealander. I think that much has been said in the debate on this bill, but after this bill goes through it will make it harder for New Zealanders to buy land, homes, and farms\u2014and it is hard enough now. [Interruption] The member disagrees, but I can tell him that he has got it wrong. New Zealand First opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d88462058b8643178e627c6108b0280b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Overseas Investment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 23; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 27\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; Green Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d009eb2625ce43cf860de591619d3fd2\u0022\u003ETerrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1d1ed38fd864decbdc771397c324d2e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022954ae9d0398549e89edb579d4f7db4ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022954ae9d0398549e89edb579d4f7db4ad\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has recommended that the bill be passed with no amendments. The bill is necessary to ensure that the status of terrorist entities designated as such under the Act does not expire. That would have placed New Zealand in violation of United Nations Security Council resolutions. Not to pass this bill would be to leave no legal sanction against those who might support organisations such as al-Qaeda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 was passed in the wake of the horrific events of 11 September 2001. At the time, the nature and the extent of the terrorism phenomenon was still unclear, as was how the international obligations emerging from the UN Security Council in response to those events might be interpreted and implemented. The Act was an appropriate response at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E But equally, it was recognised that the provisions in the Act would need to be kept under review and amended where necessary, in the light of experience and the rapidly evolving international environment. As a result this is the second amendment bill to be put before the House since the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 was enacted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThere is also provision for the Act to be reviewed by a select committee and reported back by 1 December 2005. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has already begun its review, and I look forward to its report by the end of this year. Notwithstanding that review, the current bill introduces measures that are needed before the completion of the review. In particular, two measures in the bill need to be implemented in order for New Zealand to comply fully with its international obligations. These are the creation of a specific terrorist financing offence relating to the funding of terrorist entities, and the extension of the current terrorist designations made pursuant to the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EClause 4 creates a new offence of directly or indirectly financing terrorist entities, as opposed to terrorist acts. The creation of this offence will make New Zealand more compliant with United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373, as well as the Financial Action Task Force Special Recommendation II. Compliance with these internationally agreed measures is critical to ensuring that New Zealand does not become, and cannot be seen to become, a country through which funding support for terrorist groups can be channelled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe committee expressed some concern regarding the scope of this offence. Some concerns were expressed that the scope could capture an offence or be used maliciously to allege an offence of funding a terrorist entity, when the donor, in fact, believed he or she was funding, or intended to fund, legitimate human rights or humanitarian or democratic rights groups. Having given serious consideration to these concerns, the committee was satisfied, as I am, that neither the intent nor the wording of the offence would catch persons who provide or collect funds for groups with no connection to terrorist activity. Nor will it risk criminalising the unwitting donation of funds to terrorist entities, for example, via a terrorist group\u2019s apparently legitimate front organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ETo be captured by the new offence a person must intend that the money provided or raised will directly or indirectly benefit an entity that he or she knows carries out terrorist acts. This is a significant burden for the prosecution to satisfy in any particular case. In addition, any prosecution for the offence, as with all offences under the Act, will require the consent of the Attorney-General. Together these factors ensure that only those who it can be proved have knowingly and wilfully supported terrorists will be captured by the offence. Such people, of course, should have their actions criminalised, and that is what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe committee also discussed the application of the \u201Cavoidance of doubt\u201D provision contained in section 8 of the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002. It is arguable that the effect of this provision needs further consideration, but the issues involved in that consideration are somewhat wider than the limited matters being addressed immediately through this bill. The committee\u2019s broader view of the Act provides a more suitable forum for that consideration and any recommendations arising from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second substantive amendment in the bill extends the October 2005 expiry date applying to 318 terrorist entities as designated under the Act. When the Act was originally passed it was not known for how long the initial designations of terrorist groups, made by the United Nations Security Council, would remain current. For that reason the initial designations were given an expiry date, and a process for review and extension of individual designations was established. Nearly 3 years on, all the entities are still United Nations Security Council designations\u2014none have been removed from its list. However, the Act does not presently allow us to bring one application to the High Court for all of the UN designations to be extended. This means that 318 individual applications for review and extension would be needed. The time and resource implications for the High Court in such an exercise would be enormous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIt is clear that there is simply insufficient time to extend so many designations in this way. Allowing the designations of groups such as al-Qaeda as terrorist entities to expire and New Zealand to become non-compliant with the United Nations Security Council resolution is not an option. Instead, the bill extends the expiration date for the current terrorist designations for a period of 2 years following the report of the select committee on its broader review of the Act. This time frame will provide the committee with the time needed to fully examine the issue of terrorist designations and the review and extension process, and allow the Government sufficient time to examine and respond to any committee recommendations arising from its review. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef9f370235354f9285efe01790d295f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef9f370235354f9285efe01790d295f0\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E This is quite a small bill in some ways, yet it is a very important one. The reason, as the Minister has just said, is that it amends the Terrorism Suppression Act of 2002, passed by this Parliament in order that New Zealand might implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373 to combat global terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhile the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee was examining this bill some very interesting issues arose, and I think the debate in this House tonight will be interesting, because the practice of what is usual in this House in terms of support or opposition differed on this bill in the select committee from being down the middle to, I guess, across the parties. The record will show that on this occasion both Labour and National supported this bill at the select committee, while New Zealand First and the Greens opposed it. It is unusual for New Zealand First to align itself with the Greens, but that is what happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me try to explain more clearly than the Minister did exactly what this bill does. The principal Act makes it illegal to give money to finance terrorism. Section 8(1) of the principal Act states: \u201CA person commits an offence who, directly or indirectly, wilfully and without lawful justification or reasonable excuse, provides or collects funds intending that they be used, or knowing that they be used, in full or in part, in order to carry out 1 or more acts of a kind that, if they were carried out, would be 1 or more terrorist acts.\u201D The problem with that section is that although it outlaws giving money that is to be used specifically for a terrorist act, it does not outlaw giving money to an organisation that is directly involved in terrorism\u2014and knowing that the organisation was involved in terrorism. I think it is a clear omission that we missed when this Parliament passed the Act in 2002. Quite clearly, one could have a situation where the prosecution for someone who was caught financing a terrorist organisation could claim that the person was directly financing a terrorist act. It would seem that a defence could be mounted whereby, under the principal Act, the person could claim: \u201COh no, I wasn\u2019t. I was simply giving finance to an organisation that you claim is involved in terrorist activities, but I certainly wasn\u2019t directly financing a terrorist act.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is important that such defence\u2014any defence of that nature\u2014is not possible. That is why clause 4 in Part 1 of this amendment bill broadens the provisions in section 8 of the principal Act to make it very clear that it will be a criminal offence not only to directly finance a terrorist act but also to knowingly finance an organisation involved in terrorism. I think that most members of this House would agree that that is a very important amendment, because it is fairly clear that we left a loophole in the principal Act when we passed it in 2002. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhen considering this provision, a very interesting issue arose in relation to extending the criminality to knowingly financing a terrorist organisation\u2014an extension beyond financing a terrorist act directly. Section 8(2) of the principal Act provides what could be called an out clause. It was inserted by the select committee considering the principal legislation back in 2002, because there was concern about someone collecting funds where it might be understood that those funds would be used for democratic purposes or the protection, the promotion, of human rights. The committee was concerned that if someone was involved in financing that kind of activity, then it wanted to make it very clear that that was very different from directly financing a terrorist act. So an out clause was inserted that is now section 8(2) in the principal Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat became very interesting in the consideration of the select committee this time round was that a number of submissions argued that the new section 8(2A) that clause 4 is bringing into the principal Act, should also have the same out clause that section 8(1) of the principal Act has. Section 8(1) of the principal Act outlaws directly financing a terrorist act. New section 8(2A) would outlaw financing a terrorist organisation. Section 8(2) has the out clause that states: \u201CTo avoid doubt, nothing in subsection (1) makes it an offence to provide or collect funds intending they be used, or knowing that they are to be used, for the purpose of advocating democratic government or the protection of human rights.\u201D A number of submissions argued that that out clause should also be applied to new section 8(2A) in clause 4 of this amendment bill. The select committee decided, on advice from officials, not to have that out clause\u2014section 8(2) in the principal Act\u2014apply to new section 8(2A) in this amendment bill. That is a very significant decision by the select committee. It means that as the select committee goes on to review the principal Act, which it has to do under section 70 of the principal Act and is, in fact, doing right now, it will have to give a lot more thought to that out clause\u2014that is, section 8(2) currently in the principal Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut the important thing in respect of this amendment bill we are debating tonight is that the out clause does not apply to new section 8(2A). I guess that is why New Zealand First, when it contributes to this debate, will argue against clause 4 inserting section 8(2A) into the principal Act. It will probably express the concern that the out clause should apply to it. The advice from officials to the select committee was very clear\u2014namely, that there was a genuine concern that the effect of the out clause, as we call it, was not clear in law. It had not been tested, and there was a concern that someone involved in terrorist financing could get off the hook, given the out clause we put in the principal Act back in 2002. For that reason, it was decided not to apply it to new section 8(2A) in clause 4 of the amendment bill we are debating tonight. That is something that will be much debated this evening. It is an important issue. What we balance up are the issues around protecting New Zealanders and playing our part in protecting the world from terrorism versus concerns about individual human rights. That is the balance that this out clause sought to address in 2002. For very good reasons, both Labour and National members of the select committee, and the United Future chair, believed that the out clause should not be applied to new section 8(2A). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI shall cover the other major issue in this amendment bill, and it is an important issue. Part 2 extends the designation of terrorist entities. That is where I would be critical of the Government. My contribution to the equivalent debate of the principal legislation in 2002 pointed out the stupidity of having that 3-year limitation on the designations. Here tonight we are having to extend it. We put into the principal Act that the High Court had to review all those designations. That is a ridiculously bureaucratic procedure, as I pointed out back in 2002, and, as I said, this is where I would be critical of the Labour Government. It was a foolish inclusion in the principal Act. Now we are having to extend those designations and we still do not have a sensible way of reviewing them. All that we have done is to extend the time before the High Court has to do it. That is where I would be critical of the Government. It is a foolish measure that needs to be changed, because it is clearly unworkable. Those are the two major issues that we will be debating this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022dced07c6c79d473fbeea95d10485450e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dced07c6c79d473fbeea95d10485450e\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I did not want to interrupt the member who was speaking, because he was making some very good points. But I have to say, and he is not someone with a quiet voice, over the murmur of conversation in this Chamber it was actually very hard to hear him. I seek your assistance in ensuring that the debate that proceeds does proceed with a modicum of quiet in this place, because it is important. If members such as the member who has just spoken, who is not normally quiet, are hard to hear, then we have a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00221b7b344ed9684368b3479f3b9a37fc24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b7b344ed9684368b3479f3b9a37fc24\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I agree with the member. Would those who wish to conduct a conversation please go outside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u0022569190c2a59647ebb4f164a8124118c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022569190c2a59647ebb4f164a8124118c0\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, talofa lava, and warm Pacific greetings. As a proud member of this Labour-led Government, and as deputy chair of our Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, it is indeed my pleasure to participate in the second reading of the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EBefore I address the contents of the bill, I want to provide a context for this very important legislation. The events of 11 September 2001 have been a big wake-up call for the international and global community to take collective responsibility and action to stop terrorism and the activities that support it. Our collective responsibility and action locally, nationally, regionally, and internationally are critical to stopping terrorism and all forms of abuse, and the action, or inaction, that supports it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EWe can all learn from history and, indeed, history is in the making today. This Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) is one contribution that our Government and Parliament can make to stamping out terrorism. The bill amends the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, which states that a designation as a terrorist organisation expires after 3 years unless it is renewed by order of the High Court. That has created the unintended need for each designation to be renewed individually, but it will be impossible to renew all 318 United Nations Security Council - listed designations before they expire next October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThat means that New Zealand would be breaching United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373, and related resolutions. So this bill will extend the expiry date by 2 years to 2007, and the extension will allow our select committee review of the Act\u2014provided for, as Dr Lockwood Smith said, in section 70 of the principal Act\u2014to consider fully what changes, if any, should be made to the renewal process in order for any resulting changes to be implemented. The bill also extends two sections of the Act that prohibit the financing of terrorist acts and designated terrorist entities, so that the provisions also cover the international financing of non-designated terrorist organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThe Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has recommended that the bill be passed with no amendments. That is very necessary to ensure that terrorist entities designated as such under the Act do not expire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThis is the second amendment bill to be put before the House since the Terrorism Suppression Act of 2002 was enacted. There was also provision for the Act, as I said before, to be reviewed by our select committee, and in fact we are already conducting that review and heard a submission from the human rights commissioner this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThe two measures in the bill that need to be implemented in order for New Zealand to comply fully with its international obligations are the creation of a specific terrorist financing offence relating to the funding of terrorist entities, and the extension of the current terrorist designations that were made pursuant to the Act. Clause 4 also creates the new offence of the direct or indirect financing of terrorist entities as opposed to terrorist acts. Of course, the creation of that offence will make New Zealand fully compliant with United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373, as well as the Financial Action Task Force\u2019s special recommendation. Compliance is critical to ensuring that New Zealand is not, and cannot be seen to become, a country through which funding support for terrorist groups can be channelled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E Dr Lockwood Smith alluded to the fact that the committee, as well as submitters, expressed some concern regarding the scope of the offence. Concern was also expressed that the scope could be used maliciously to allege an offence of funding a terrorist entity, when donors in fact believed or intended that they were funding legitimate humanitarian or democratic rights groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThe committee gave very serious consideration to those concerns. With the great legal advice we received from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Ministry of Justice, we were satisfied that neither the intent nor the wording of the offence would catch persons who provided or collected funds for groups with no connection to terrorist activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThe committee also discussed the application of the \u201Cavoidance of doubt\u201D provision contained in section 8(2) of the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002. In response to that provision, the committee\u2019s broader review of the Act, which I referred to at the beginning of my speech, has provided a more suitable forum and time frame for us to give it serious consideration and to address some of its complexities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003ENearly 3 years on, all the entities are still United Nations security designations; none have been removed from that list. The time and resource implications for the High Court in such an exercise would be enormous. It is clear there is simply insufficient time to extend so many designations in that way. Allowing the designations of groups like al-Qaeda as terrorist entities to expire, so that New Zealand becomes non-compliant with the security resolution, is not an option. Instead, the bill extends the expiry date for current terrorist designations for a period of 2 years, following the report of our select committee on its broader review of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI will end how I began. The events of 11 September 2001 have been a big wake-up call for the international and global community to take collective responsibility and action to stop terrorism and the activities that support it. Our collective responsibility and action locally, nationally, regionally, and internationally are critical to stopping terrorism and all forms of abuse, and the action or inaction that support it. We can all learn from history, and indeed history is in the making today. This Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) is a contribution that our Government and Parliament can make to stopping all forms of terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00225d88caa482fc4427879aae71b910c36b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d88caa482fc4427879aae71b910c36b\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps I could begin where the previous speaker began and ended. She made one oversight as to the Labour Government\u2019s reaction to 11 September 2001. I think, as we all remember, one of the Labour Government\u2019s first responses to 11 September 2001 and the air attacks in the United States was to disband the RNZAF\u2019s strike force. That is a very strange response to September 11, but that is the Labour Party. The member forgot that altogether. September 11 involved planes flying across the United States and attempts to shoot them down, but the Labour Government disbanded our strike air force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI congratulate Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith. If he were presenting this case before the Bar he could not have done a better job of explaining section 8(1) and (2). I was very appreciative of the clear and disinterested way in which he presented those facts and explained how section 8(2) came into the original legislation. We do try to keep things at a reasonable level at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, although from time to time some of us break ranks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is concerned about the effect of new section 8(2A) in clause 4, remembering, of course, that the protection provision of section 8(2) does not apply to new section 8(2A). That is one of its defects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister\u2019s speech and I would have liked him to hear this comment from me. The Minister said that the new section requires that someone must intend to do something. The words \u201Cmust intend\u201D do not appear in the new section 8(2A). They are a figment of the Minister\u2019s imagination and, if he relied on them, any subsequent person, perhaps from the judiciary, listening to the Minister\u2019s second reading speech would realise that the Minister was absolutely wrong in the words he used, and one wonders what a court might then do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is concerned at the implications of new section 8(2A). For example, we believe that this amendment could have the effect of making criminals of people who make a contribution to the tsunami-affected areas in the part of Sri Lanka controlled by the Tamil Tigers, or in Aceh, Indonesia. It is currently illegal to make a donation to a terrorist entity itself, but this amendment goes further and creates a new crime of benefiting people who live in an area controlled by such an entity. New Zealand First believes that it is bad legislation\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227bbeec771d845dfb51a444588ca6be3\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise, Mr Jones. Could members please be seated and could they all keep the chat down. It is very disconcerting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb846beb510745309b8920f0189906c8\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, New Zealand First believes that this amendment could have the effect of making criminals of people who make a contribution to the tsunami-affected areas in the part of Sri Lanka controlled by the Tamil Tigers, or in Aceh, Indonesia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt is currently illegal to make a donation to a terrorist entity itself\u2014section 8(1)\u2014but this amendment goes further and creates a new crime of benefiting people who live in an area controlled by such an entity. New Zealand First believes it is bad legislation that would have made criminals of the hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders, including the New Zealand Government, who made donations knowing they would benefit people living within the area of Sri Lanka controlled by the Tamil Tigers, or in Aceh, Indonesia. That means that every member of this Government and of this House who will vote for aid money being made available to people who live in the Tamil Tigers\u2019 area of Sri Lanka\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1d5fe8418444122af77219eaf0732f4\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Who would prosecute for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0844f540e474c6f91bd4788fbb445b5\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: That is not our role as a Parliament. Our role is to make sure that there is no opportunity to prosecute for that. We do not pass legislation in the hope that no one will prosecute. We pass legislation so that no one can prosecute, and that is the difference. That is obviously what Dr Lockwood Smith does not understand, and where the National Party, New Zealand First, and the Government disagree. We should have legislation that does not give one the opportunity to prosecute, rather than saying: \u201CHey, don\u2019t worry about it. We\u2019ll pass this but no one can ever prosecute.\u201D That is where the nonsense arises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is not satisfied with the officials\u2019 interpretation of the proposed new section 8(2A). It believes that even more uncertainty will be created if the new section is passed into law. Of course, at the moment the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee is reviewing this entire legislation. The review has already commenced, and we in New Zealand First prefer to see this issue more thoroughly and clearly canvassed in the review. That is why I have proposed an amendment to delete clause 4. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat did the officials actually say to the committee, and how does the report read? It was very clear from reading the first page of the report on new section 8(2A) that the committee was concerned. As Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith has pointed out, many submitters criticised the scope of proposed section 8(2A), which criminalises the provision of general financial support to all terrorist organisations, whether or not they are designated, and said that it could potentially catch legitimate funding activities for democratic rights or human rights movements. That is referred to in the committee\u2019s report as a whole, which states: \u201CWe were concerned about the effect of this section on someone donating money to a street collector collecting for an organisation that, unbeknownst to them, is involved in or contributes to terrorist activities and that, under this section, a person simply donating money could be prosecuted for funding terrorist activities.\u201D Those are the words of the majority\u2014the Labour Party, the National Party, and, I presume, United Future and ACT. The majority of the committee expressed that concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe majority was also concerned that groups collecting money and those donating to them might be falsely accused of knowingly supporting terrorism. That is New Zealand First\u2019s concern. We do not want to see bad law going into our books, especially when there is a review of the whole legislation taking place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E The committee went on to state: \u201CHowever we are now satisfied that neither the intent nor wording of the provision catches the funding of legitimate human rights, humanitarian or democratic rights groups acting solely in this way.\u201D If the committee was so certain, that is where its view should have ended. But the commentary continues: \u201CWe seek the Government\u2019s confirmation that this is indeed its intent.\u201D Well, that is no way to pass a law. The committee is virtually saying: \u201CWe don\u2019t really know, but can the Government confirm to us that this is not its intent?\u201D. But a judge is not going to say: \u201CI\u2019ve read the law. I\u2019m trying to make up my mind. Minister, could you come in and tell me this wasn\u2019t your intent?\u201D. What a ridiculous way of passing legislation. The legislation should be clear on the face of it; and the committee\u2019s report, if it is read by any judge, will indicate that the committee was uncertain as to the intent of the legislation. That is not on, in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe committee believed that: \u201CTo commit the offence, a person must know that the money raised will benefit an entity that carries out terrorist acts.\u201D How does one get money from New Zealand to the area in Sri Lanka controlled by the Tamil Tigers? There is only one way and that is through the Tamil Tigers. Therefore, all those Sri Lankans who raised money for people living in the area controlled by the Tamil Tigers, and the people who raised money for Aceh in Indonesia, knowing that it had to go through groups that are terrorist organisations because that is the only way people in the area can get the money, are made criminals in terms of this bill. For example, what about the young people who held stalls raising money for flood relief for the tsunami-hit areas? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022184a3898a3ee4996a2f9fccb1ec36ea1\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1200de8d5754f42abff891e3c0d2260\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It does that, because they know the money will be disposed of through the Tamil Tigers. Who else will do it? It will not be the Sri Lankan Government, because the Government is not allowed into that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAre Labour and National saying that no money can go to the areas controlled by the Tamil Tigers because, obviously, that breaches what they say the United Nations wants? At the very least the Government could have allowed section 8(2) to apply to this as well, but, no, Government members were so mean in the select committee trying to race this bill through, they would not agree to that being the situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe commentary continues: \u201CThis is an extremely high threshold for the Crown,\u201D. New Zealand First does not believe in high thresholds or low thresholds; the standard is beyond reasonable doubt as a rule. If one wants to make it a high threshold, one puts it in the Act. There is only one way of interpreting criminal law, and that is according to the well-known principles of statutory interpretation and proof. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI have spent my time on this issue. I understand there will be just the one vote at the end of this; there will not be two votes because there are no amendments before the select committee. New Zealand First will vote for the select committee report, but when we come to the Committee stage, I will be voting for my amendment and hoping that it will get through. New Zealand First is strongly committed to fighting terrorism\u2014more committed than the Government is, because we want a strike air force and the Government does not. We wish to make sure that the views of those ordinary New Zealanders who wanted to give money to tsunami-affected areas, to the Aceh areas, and to anything else, are represented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002217cb5d9b7cb740d1ae1d55c2310c9f68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217cb5d9b7cb740d1ae1d55c2310c9f68\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak to the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2). Let me say immediately that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee is one of the select committees that the ACT party is not on; being a party of nine members we are not able to be on every committee. Therefore we are forced to listen to the debate and to make up our minds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ELet me just make a few observations to the House. The first is that we have to decide as a country whether we are supporting the United Nations resolutions on terrorism. It is my understanding that New Zealand First and the Green Party are strong supporters of the United Nations. I suspect that the ACT party probably has the most doubts about that organisation, but it appears to me, looking at the issue as it faces the world, that one is forced to line up and support the United Nations. It is interesting when one makes that observation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270f168fa912741639aa4ab2840415e13\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: If there is such a resolution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c336f6c7328f4dffa8615136cd1e9f86\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member suggesting that the Security Council has somehow produced this list\u2014[Interruption] A submission has come to us from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I quote from the report of the member\u2019s own select committee: \u201CProposed section 8(2A) implements NZ\u2019s international legal obligations under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373.\u201D We need to meet those obligations. That is the statement that the select committee has made to the House, and I have no reason to suppose that it is not correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note\u2014[Interruption] The member is interjecting on me, and I am trying to debate the matter seriously. It is interesting to note that the range of nations that have supported this matter is extraordinarily wide. Countries at the United Nations that one would expect to support terrorism have in fact supported Resolution 1373, and that is because I think most nations actually realise that terrorism is a very evil thing and that we need to take international action against it. From that point of view, it would appear to me that this House really has no choice but to support the United Nations resolution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe next question we come to is whether we should, because somebody might want to give money to the Tamil Tigers for very laudable reasons, decide not to support a clause that states that it is now an offence to give money to a terrorist organisation. I am staggered that New Zealand First has come up with opposition to that clause. Indeed, it is interesting to know what goes on in New Zealand First caucus meetings, because New Zealand First, on a previous bill\u2014I will not go into it\u2014just made a general rave against foreigners, and now, apparently, it is making a general rave against foreigners except the Tamil Tigers. I find that really quite extraordinary. This clause is saying that one cannot give money to an organisation that supports terrorism just because it also does charitable actions. That is a well-known characteristic of many terrorist organisations\u2014that on the one hand they do terrorism, and on the other hand they carry out good works because, of course, they are trying to win public support. But that is not a reason for this House to agree to people giving money to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ELet me then turn to the matter of substance that I think the honourable member was raising, and that is the fear that ordinary New Zealanders who give money to street collections somehow will be caught up by this clause. Well, I was not on the select committee so I am looking at it slightly more objectively. I say \u201CGet real!\u201D. To get a prosecution under new section 8(2A), in clause 4\u2014and Mr Jones must know this; he was a reasonably competent lawyer\u2014will be very, very difficult. Indeed, one could put up an argument that it is a show clause, and I am afraid I actually do believe that. It is a clause to show the rest of the world that we are doing our bit, but who seriously thinks anyone will get home on it in court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ELet me read new section 8(2A), because that is what I have been forced to do: \u201CA person commits an offence who, directly or indirectly, wilfully\u201D\u2014that means the person actually meant to do it\u2014\u201Cand without lawful justification\u201D\u2014we got that out\u2014\u201Cor reasonable excuse\u201D\u2014we have two more reasons to give the court\u2014\u201Cprovides or collects funds intending that they benefit, or knowing that they will benefit, an entity that the person knows is an entity that carries out, or participates in the carrying out of, 1 or more terrorist acts.\u201D Realistically, to get home on that in court, one needs someone to put an advertisement in the newspaper saying: \u201CSupport the Tamil Tigers. They are a worthy cause. Send money to Box \u2026\u201D. One would have to do something almost as blatant as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen we have to ask ourselves whether it is worth passing such a provision. It probably is, because if we did not have such a law, there would be some people who would organise collections of that sort. But all we are going to do is stop those people who openly collect for terrorist organisations. Under this clause, we certainly will not be able to stop those people who are secretly collecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say to the New Zealand First Party and to the Greens that there may be some political advantage in their opposing this clause, but I am not sure whether I can see it. I cannot see the point in criticising the Government for not going any further, because although the world has a problem, when I look realistically at New Zealand I have some difficulty in believing we have. I will give just one simple example. We all, at least twice a week, go through the security checks at our domestic airports. They cost New Zealand multimillions of dollars. Tens of thousands of Swiss army knives have been lost, and other bits and pieces of jewellery. We have not found a single terrorist, and we cannot really be serious about it, because a suicide bomber could put his or her luggage\u2014which is not checked\u2014on the aeroplane and fly off to whatever oblivion he or she wants to go to. Why are we doing it? We are doing it to play our part in the international fight against terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ESo having expressed my scepticism that this measure will do much good, and having looked at it as a responsible parliamentarian, it appears to me we really do not have any choice except to pass it. It is certainly not helpful to suggest that innocent New Zealanders will be caught up in this measure. Let us get real. I think we have no choice but to pass this measure. The ACT party accordingly will vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa36e0efad974db5ad0d05b425fa68ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa36e0efad974db5ad0d05b425fa68ef\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This is a shameful bill that shows the inconsistency in the Government\u2019s talk about human rights. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee is in the middle of a review of the Terrorism Suppression Act. Submitters to that review are repeating what is being said all around the world\u2014that the legislation brought in soon after the September 11 atrocity was often rushed and often did not take full account of human rights. Traditional civil liberty safeguards have been challenged by anti-terrorism legislation on a number of fronts. The determination of criminality, when it is put in the terrorist basket, has been taken out of the hands of the judiciary in many cases, and put into the hands of politicians and their officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn our Terrorism Suppression Act, it is the Prime Minister who does the designating. There are some appeal processes, but several places around the world, such as Guantanamo Bay, show that there is no guaranteed due process. The same lack of due process applies in countries like Pakistan, the President of which, Purvez Musharraf, is arriving in New Zealand tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn our Terrorism Suppression Act there is a right of appeal to the court, but this is highly constrained. Information against those labelled as terrorists is commonly classified, and under the original Act can be withheld from them when they take their appeals to the High Court. The standards whereby the State has to prove criminality are lowered when crime, usually potential crime, is defined as terrorism. New Zealanders can be imprisoned under our Terrorism Suppression Act for giving some form of support to an organisation initially only suspected of being terrorist. This suspicion can be based not on the fact that they have committed a terrorist act, but that they might do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAnother critical problem is the loose definition of what is or is not a terrorist organisation. Since September 11 the United Nations has come to no agreement on any definition, basically because one country\u2019s terrorist is another country\u2019s freedom fighter. The definitions of terrorism are often so loose that even normal protest groups get caught. We have seen this in Denmark this month, with Greenpeace being put on trial under anti-terrorist legislation for entering an agricultural ministry building in a protest against GE. Similar prosecutions could take place under our anti-terrorist legislation if a more right-wing Government, wanting to clamp down on protest groups, came to power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EUnder the existing definition of terrorism, protest groups involved in civil disobedience or serious disruption of an infrastructure facility\u2014to use the terms in the present Act\u2014do not need to intend to harm anyone. They need only do something deemed by the authorities as likely to endanger human life, to be caught under this Act. It is disgraceful that rather than waiting for the present review of the Terrorism Suppression Act to be completed, the Government is making the original bill even more draconian. To put it bluntly, the amendment bill is in this House today not for any good reason, but to please the Bush administration and its allies in their so-called \u201Cwar against terrorism\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThis bill makes the Terrorism Suppression Act worse, in three respects. Firstly, it extends criminality from financial support for carrying out a terrorist act, to financing an allegedly terrorist group as such for any purpose, even if that purpose has nothing to do with terrorism. In the explanatory note of the bill, even \u201Cthe payment of general routine expenses such as rent\u201D is criminalised. It was this provision that received the most attention from submitters to the select committee. Several pointed out that thousands of New Zealanders could have been convicted under this provision if it had been in place at the time they were digging deep to give tsunami relief to Sri Lanka. As was pointed out by submitters, much of the aid that New Zealanders gave went to the Tamil-controlled area in the north and east of Sri Lanka. Some of those who donated would have known that their aid would be going via organisations controlled by the Tamil Tigers, who are designated as terrorists by the Governments of America, Britain, and Australia and are treated as terrorists by some agencies in New Zealand, particularly the Security Intelligence Service, which I have direct evidence interrogates members of the Sri Lankan Tamil community in regard to their connections in Sri Lanka. Let me be clear. Under the Terrorism Suppression Act, an organisation does not have to be officially designated as terrorist for donors to it to be criminalised by this new provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Government told the select committee that the submitters were right\u2014the law did apply to ordinary New Zealand aid donors if the Tamil Tigers were considered terrorist. The only reassurance to us was that if we were intending the money to be used only for charitable purposes, that would be a good court defence, and such New Zealanders would be unlikely to be convicted. But why should we have a law that requires New Zealanders to mount such a defence in such cases? The outcome would be a lottery, according to the political mood at the time. A New Zealand donor to one of the purely charitable Hamas agencies in Palestine, of which there are several, might not be so lucky in court in a political climate following a particularly despicable Hamas suicide bombing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders\u2019 chances of winning any such court battles will become worse if another part of the amendment bill passes. In the original Act there is a qualifying section 8(2), after the subsection that makes it illegal to give money for carrying out a terrorist act. The qualifying section 8(2) states: \u201CTo avoid doubt, nothing in subsection (1) makes it an offence to provide or collect funds intending that they be used, or knowing that they are to be used, for the purpose of advocating democratic government or the protection of human rights.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ECommon sense would dictate that the newly inserted provision for the lesser offence of funding a terrorist organisation, rather than funding a terrorist act, would carry the same qualification, particularly in the climate of 2005 when people are more conscious of not having terrorist legislation restrict civil liberties than they were when the original Act was passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut no, the Government has made it clear that it wants to knock this \u201Cavoidance of doubt\u201D provision, where it is a defence to aid democratic government or the protection of human rights, right out of the original Act. Its first step towards this is not to have it apply to the new provision for the financing of a terrorist organisation. This is a betrayal of the original political contract, which led to the Terrorism Suppression Act passing through this House in 2002, as expressed in speeches from people like the Labour chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, Graham Kelly. They repeatedly reassured those submitters who were critical of the bill, and there were about 130 of them, with the \u201Cavoidance of doubt\u201D clause, and another comfort clause about engaging in protest being by itself not sufficient basis for implying that a person was carrying out a terrorist act. The Green Party will be moving an amendment in the Committee stage to at least have the \u201Cavoidance of doubt\u201D qualifying provision apply to donations to an allegedly terrorist organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe third way in which this amendment bill makes the original Act worse is by extending New Zealand\u2019s terrorist designations, which expire this year, for 2 further years until late 2007, 2 years after the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee presents its review on the Terrorism Suppression Act. That is particularly bad, given that we know that the designations are not always accurate. The present ones all come from the United Nations, and there are many admissions now that its processes are not up to standard and that it does not build into its processes the right to due process for all those designated as terrorists now or in the past. Extending designations when we know that in all likelihood some of them are wrong is unconscionable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe last amendment to the Act we passed\u2014which is why this bill is the No 2 bill\u2014was, in fact, to enable the Government to remove organisations where errors had been made. So that legislation accepted the fact that errors could be made. It is argued that it would be hard, or time consuming, for the High Court to check designations as the Act at present prescribes. But if we are to apply justice to those who are so designated, and to anyone who supports them, there must be a checking process, and officials responsible to the court can do that checking just as easily as officials responsible to politicians. As the Human Rights Commission pointed out, the Government has not gone to the trouble of applying to the court with any of these expiring designations to give it time to initiate that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBasically, this amendment shows disrespect for the judiciary, and puts politicians above them in determining the future of designations. The concept of putting politicians above the judiciary is a basic problem of anti-terrorist legislation around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00223e5b253c920f44e1beae948ed4c7b9c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e5b253c920f44e1beae948ed4c7b9c4\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E At the outset, as the chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, I express to the officials who advised us and served us so faithfully our appreciation for their professionalism, their advice, and their assistance as we dealt with these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI come back to section 8(2A), inserted by clause 4, because that is really the most important part of the bill. I want to pick up a couple of the arguments that have been raised so far. It is certainly true that during the select committee\u2019s examination of the bill, we received a large number of submissions from people concerned about the possible criminalising of their generous donation to some charitable concern for humanitarian reasons. I want to take that analogy and then test it alongside what the provision actually states. Let us imagine someone, in the wake of the tsunami disaster, deciding to support Tamil relief, or other relief causes, collecting on the streets of Wellington. The fear expressed to us was that, unwittingly, those people might be exposing themselves to prosecution if it was discovered subsequently that the organisations to which they were donating were in fact terrorist organisations. The provision actually states that that person would commit an offence if he or she \u201Cdirectly or indirectly, wilfully and without lawful justification or reasonable excuse, provides or collects \u2026 knowing that they will benefit\u201D. So, short of someone actually carrying a placard or a banner indicating where the funding will go, a person making that donation can hardly be said to be doing it wilfully, without lawful justification or reasonable excuse, or providing funding, knowing that terrorist organisations will benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe test is a very high one. The select committee was certainly concerned to ensure that no innocent parties were adversely affected by this provision. We looked very closely at the wording and the intent. I pick up the point that Mr Prebble raised. There are so many qualifications in here, in terms of hurdles to be crossed, that one could say that the section has been dressed up rather grandly. Far more likely, what the clause does is put in place so many hurdles a prospective offender has to cross to make it almost impossible that the innocent would be trapped by it. The test is a remarkably high one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAfter a lot of consideration, the select committee came to the conclusion that that was a fair and reasonable amendment to make. It would not capture the innocent, and it would not give rise to the concern expressed in some of the submissions. In response to a point made earlier by Mr Jones, I say that that was why the committee inserted in its report the comment: \u201CWe seek the Government\u2019s confirmation that this is indeed its intent.\u201D It was certainly the conclusion of the select committee that the intent of the provision was as described to us and as reported in our report. We are seeking an explicit statement from the Government, made in the course of this debate, that that is exactly what it had in mind, because that is what we believe the Government had in mind all along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis is not a question of second-guessing or saying that the law is not clear enough. It is saying that the only way in which we, as a group of reasonable people, were able to interpret the provision was in that way. We expect that was the Government\u2019s intention, as well. We therefore think that that should now be stated explicitly, in the light of this consideration and in the light of the concern that was expressed to us. This is not a way of trying to second-guess or rewrite the law. It is simply a way of reinforcing what we thought and took to be the obvious. It does come down to being a very high threshold for any prospective offender to cross. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EReference has already been made to the fact that we should not be making these amendments at this time, in view of the fact that we are undertaking, as provided for under section 70 of the principal Act, a wider review of that legislation. That is a very erroneous conclusion to draw. Firstly, we have the practical problems of the designations that have been referred to. When members in this House rightly express concern about the speed of court processes and the fact that justice is often being delayed, I invite them to consider the consequence of not passing the particular provision relating to designations. Our courts would become, in effect, nothing more than outlets to process terrorism designations. Vicious murderers, killers, thugs, and other violent offenders\u2014property thieves, drug dealers, and the lot\u2014would have to take their place in an ever-lengthening queue, because the court system would be clogged. I would then invite those members who have expressed concern about justice being delayed to come back to this House and say that that is an acceptable position, because clearly it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere was no alternative but to act. It may well have been, in retrospect, an unwise provision to have included in the first place, in terms of the duration of the time. But the reality is that we have to act now, and we are, through this bill. It does not cut across the provisions of the wider review. I say to the House that in fact that review is well advanced. As of today, I think we have heard from all of those who wished to make submissions to us on that review. An interesting commentary, both on this bill and on the wider review, which is at variance with some of the arguments we hear about the level of wider concern, is the number of submissions we have received. This bill received 13 submissions. An earlier speaker referred to the principal Act receiving 130 submissions. The substantive review has received a similar small number of submissions. That is indicative of a general acceptance in the population that there are now matters that require us to act in the way we are acting, that some of the assumptions we might have had in our naivety 3 or 4 years ago no longer apply because of an international situation we could not have imagined those few short years ago, and that, therefore, some compromises\u2014unfortunately, perhaps\u2014have to be made to some of our accepted norms of freedom and the way in which we move around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E I do not get a sense\u2014and it did not come through at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee hearing, either\u2014that there is great unease. I was struck by the similarity of origin of many of the submissions. Many people who have a certain predictability about them were the ones who chose to appear before us on this matter. I do not diminish the points they made, but I simply make the observation that there was a sameness about the submitters and about what they had to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe are dealing here with a bill that is essentially procedural. The issue of the designations has to be resolved. The question of the refinement of section 8 of the principal Act by the insertion of this new clause will not compromise good citizens\u2019 rights, at all. The innocent, genuine, well-intentioned person who supports international humanitarian relief organisations will not be adversely affected by these provisions, simply because of the way in which they are designed. The test is a deliberately high one. Short of the public advertisement of terrorist intent or public knowledge that an organisation is a well-known front for terrorist activities, the individual donor or supporter has nothing to fear from these provisions. The sooner we can proceed to pass them, and then later in the year deal with the outcome of the substantive review and, if necessary, make changes to the principal Act in the light of that review, the better for all concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00221688db4f237d4dc2b7828704b3901d12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221688db4f237d4dc2b7828704b3901d12\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I address this bill also as a member of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. Obviously, I endorse the main points made by the chair of that committee, and also by the deputy chair. I realise that there were some genuine concerns, certainly from some of the submitters, in terms of this bill. But I make the point that, in our view, it is very clear, on consideration of this bill along with others, that this bill will in no way compromise the rights of decent, genuine citizens, in terms of their various activities on behalf of and contributions to various relief agencies that have been mentioned. I certainly want to assure members of this House about that. Someone has talked about the groups that have been collecting for, for example, the recent tsunami relief appeal, and has said that perhaps some of that money may have unwittingly ended up in inappropriate hands. However, the people who have more to fear\u2014and much to fear, as should be the case\u2014are those who deliberately mislead genuine members of the general public, and then use their offices to channel money to terrorist organisations. In my view, and as has been said by previous speakers, there is a very high threshold in terms of determining those terrorist organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI, along with other members of this Parliament, look forward to the substantive review. Any sovereign Parliament must always be vigilant that any legislation in this particular area does not lead to unintended consequences. In terms of our scrutiny of the actions of the court, and even of the actions of the executive of the day, that is a very important function of Parliament. I heard a previous speaker allude to Guantanamo Bay and to some of the abuses that have apparently been going on there. Of course we should be very concerned about that. Of course we should ensure that such actions and processes are open to the harsh glare of scrutiny. However, as the Hon Peter Dunne very aptly pointed out, the world as we knew it has dramatically changed. The nature of international conflict has dramatically changed, and the way in which we respond to that also needs to change. We have to strike the appropriate balance, and sometimes it is possibly difficult, between individual rights and liberties\u2014the right of people to get together within a democracy\u2014versus the rights of people who would, in my view, blatantly mislead and corrupt the innocent, and channel funding and support to terrorist organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI look forward to the substantive review. I think it is very, very important that we go through that whole process with great care and consideration. Notwithstanding some of the reservations expressed by some submitters at the select committee, which we all listened to very carefully, I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c44b9f79011a4047b736b34ce2aad26f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c44b9f79011a4047b736b34ce2aad26f\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on this bill. I guess the first thing one has to recollect is that just 2 weeks ago New Zealand SAS troops were deployed from Whenuapai to Afghanistan. Somewhat unusually, firstly, they were transported there courtesy of US aircraft\u2014two C17s\u2014and, secondly, the Prime Minister made the very clear statement that they would be engaged in long-range reconnaissance and direct action. As was noted in the New Zealand Herald, that is, in fact, combat. Today\u2019s network politics also dealt with that issue. It noted that the troops have been deployed at this stage, and in those numbers, because they are part of the intensified campaign to capture Osama bin Laden or, perhaps, to deal to him in some other way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI guess that is the real point. We\u2014the nations of like mind\u2014are still having to struggle to deal with the reality of terrorism and with the very people who organised the attacks in September 2001. In essence, that is why we are here today debating this bill. There is a reality out there, and it requires very focused and demanding action by our soldiers. We should acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhen I hear the Green Party members and, surprisingly, New Zealand First members, in some kind of unusual alliance, saying that it is not necessary to pass legislation that deals with that, I wonder whether they have taken any notice at all\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264c35f85edde454699b11d4096243aa9\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what I said. The member is lying again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfca21b379664838bf6f31b93bb7194d\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Deputy Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279cd7ad50eed4f1984bd6133e4b29f3a\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please withdraw that remark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203cfd90017404690a3dd4972e4738d20\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229689e8723e6a40918197fedca8f52016\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: This legislation is crucial. I note that \u2014unlike, I might add, New Zealand First\u2014the Green Party has voted against every single security measure put forward in this Parliament. It has been oblivious to the challenge facing the world in terms of the problems of terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to deal specifically with the concerns raised by both New Zealand First and the Green Party. Both parties raised a similar concern around section 8(2) of the Act. They cannot deny that reality. For some reason New Zealand First has argued that a person who innocently makes a contribution to aid the victims of the tsunami in Sri Lanka would be caught by clause 4, which inserts subsection (2A) into section 8 of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E That is wrong. The reasons it is wrong are this. Firstly, the activity itself must be made wilfully. Secondly, it has to be without lawful justification or reasonable excuse. I would have thought that aiding victims of the tsunami constitutes a lawful justification or a reasonable excuse. So I believe that the basic argument put forward, particularly by New Zealand First, is fundamentally flawed. It is just extraordinary that New Zealand First has chosen to ally itself with the Green Party on this issue. One would have thought it would be careful not to do that, given its record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI appreciate that we will have the opportunity later to debate the Supplementary Order Paper put forward by New Zealand First, but I note that New Zealand First\u2014and specifically Mr Dail Jones\u2014seeks the complete deletion of that provision. It does not seek to amend it in any way. It does not seek to clarify it in order to deal with a concern; it seeks just to remove it completely. If Mr Dail Jones has a concern, he ought at the very least to have put forward an amendment that addressed his concern directly, rather than seeking a simple deletion. Seeking a simple deletion has the consequence that a person who donates money to an entity that he or she knows will carry out terrorist acts will not be subject to the law. That surely cannot be the intent of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b808a2f1f954f0394434a222a1530a7\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s an offence\u2014page 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b17f5d5b2ea64f0d983fac1dd74c82f7\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am talking about donating to the entity. That surely cannot be the intent of New Zealand First. It probably is the intent of the Green Party, but it surely cannot be the intent of New Zealand First. I believe that New Zealand First has not put sufficient thought into achieving its intention. I can appreciate its motivation, but I do not believe that it has cast its position on this issue correctly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to discuss was more specifically dealt with, I think, by Mr Locke. There is a fundamental flaw in his thinking around the role of the courts and of the executive in designating terrorist groups. As my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith indicated, he warned this Parliament some 2 years ago of the problems this provision would raise unless it was renewed. As has been noted, particularly by the chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, Mr Dunne, that provision, in hindsight, has proven to be a mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn reality the Government has no choice but to take the path it has taken. The reason is this. I ask members to imagine what would happen if we took the Green approach. The Green approach would be to have the courts deal with each and every designation. Literally hundreds of entities are designated by the UN as terrorist organisations. Terrorism is like an octopus or a spider; it has numerous tentacles, sub-branches, and the like, each of which has to be designated. It is simply not the role of the courts to examine that kind of material. The courts have not been established for that purpose. Let us get that right. Dealing with national security is always a matter for the executive, and that is how it should be. The law has to reflect the reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI understand that the select committee is in the process of conducting a review of the Terrorism Suppression Act. Frankly, it will have to modify the legislation substantially to reduce the role of the court, because the court cannot assume what is in effect an executive power. Only the executive has the full range of information necessary. Much of this is obviously confidential information gathered through the SIS and the like\u2014information provided by friends and allies\u2014and cannot be disclosed in court. One need only look at all the problems surrounding the Ahmed Zaoui case to see the truth of that, yet that is where the Green Party would take New Zealand. It would essentially turn our Government on its head, and that would ruin the effectiveness of our democracy. It would make it extremely difficult for this country\u2019s Government\u2014of whatever stripe\u2014to look after the security, safety, and protection of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI will look with interest at the work the select committee undertakes in its review. It is important. There were undoubtedly aspects of the original legislation that needed to be improved\u2014that has been acknowledged in the past\u2014and a review of those aspects is necessary. It is noteworthy that the United States is undertaking some modifications to the Patriot Act to deal with issues that time enables people to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00222af8452503084d12a497adbf3ec8f533\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222af8452503084d12a497adbf3ec8f533\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise with pleasure to speak on the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2). The National Party will be working with the Labour Party to see that this legislation is passed and passed quickly, for reasons I will outline shortly. This bill brings back memories\u2014for me, anyway\u2014of the morning of September 11, 2001, when we all woke and watched on our TV screens images of that disaster unfolding in New York. I am reminded of the words uttered by the then Prime Minister, Helen Clark, a couple of months before, when she described New Zealand as being in a benign strategic environment. Those words have proven to be particularly foolish, as the events of September 11 showed us in very graphic fashion. September 11 showed that the threat of terrorism is now with us forever, and therefore it has become incumbent on countries like New Zealand to pass legislation, and pass it quickly, to cope with those sorts of issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to comment first of all on Part 2. The reason we are here now debating this legislation under urgency is that the principal Act apparently, and for a reason unknown to me, listed the various terrorist organisations and then left that list to expire 3 years after the passing of the principal Act. It expires, apparently, in October this year, so there is clearly some urgency to make sure that that list is continued and extended beyond October this year. I take the opportunity to thank the Government for getting this legislation out of the way before the general election, so that the incoming National Government will have one less piece of legislation to deal with immediately after the election\u2014which I now pick to take place about the middle of September. We will be busy tidying up a lot of the other messes created by the Labour Government, and we do not want to have to deal with the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) at that stage. So in that regard we completely support the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI have been fascinated in this debate, having sat here for the last couple of hours, to find that on this occasion the New Zealand First Party is siding with the Greens in criticising the legislation. But if I understand Dail Jones correctly he is saying that, having criticised the legislation and having tabled in the House a minority report on it, New Zealand First will vote for the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135dd197c2964b6091f81017f1dc69ea\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ba3af26fb91496e83f4b86a707dc552\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased I have got that right, because the logic did mystify me, to say the least. New Zealand First is railing against migrants, mainly because of their colour, and suggesting that most of them are terrorists, but when we have legislation aimed at making sure we protect New Zealand from terrorists, Winston Peters and his bunch of merry men come into the House and criticise that legislation. New Zealand First has presented a minority report criticising legislation that deals with terrorism and terrorist groups. Then, at the end of the day, it decides to vote for that legislation. As I said, that attitude by New Zealand First on this particular occasion\u2014not on every occasion\u2014is certainly mystifying, to say the least. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI turn to the comments of the Green member Keith Locke. In going back through the records, to when the principal Act was passed, I note that the Greens also voted against the legislation on that occasion. Once again we have terrorism suppression legislation\u2014the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2)\u2014and again the Green member Keith Locke tells the House that he will vote against legislation that is designed to protect New Zealand against terrorism. Again I listened with great interest to his explanation. I am one of those members who is quite prepared to give Keith Locke the time in the House to quietly explain his point of view. To summarise his argument\u2014and I will attempt to do this fairly\u2014he said that he cannot support the bill because it does not deliver due process to people who may be accused of terrorism. I ask Mr Keith Locke to think about the people in the twin towers and what due process was ever given to them. I say to Mr Locke that 3,000 absolutely innocent people died in that event. They never had a chance to be given any due process by those wicked, wicked terrorists. In supporting this legislation, I say to Mr Locke that it is that event I recall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11ded10f7e0475b99d9fb4fff47c2dd\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: You trivialise it by the way you talk about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cd31aeff05149aea691d89df685637b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Maharey says I trivialise it, but I say to him that I do not. It was the most dramatic event that I have ever witnessed in my life. Mr Maharey might find that funny, but I do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d86650d6094e60b31bcf9c7e66b9ea\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re pathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225625f2a13a8d462f86d1d027433e26ca\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not enjoy seeing those people leap to their deaths just because that was the most likely decision that they could take. Yet Mr Maharey has the audacity to say today that I trivialised that event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226231227604d44ae4bfb32ff32fe4eb87\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: You trivialise it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203cf230d74df423e8576f10927ee8ecb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a shocking thing for Mr Maharey to say. He has made some rather silly comments in his time in the House, but that would probably be the most insulting one. It probably has something to do with his explanation of the third way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291992d3829ab458a956f53c37eb6f84c\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: There he goes again\u2014trivialising everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266e5b4e92806443eab7785c8f295b548\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I trivialise that member, for sure. I do not hesitate to do so. But I say to Mr Maharey that I do not trivialise that event. That is one reason why I have no hesitation in supporting legislation like this. I accept that the Government has to move\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222219475248544098acfb6dfc09621272\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sit down and vote it through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3079f6234d14ac0b783c1d103cafdbd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Now Mr Maharey says that I should sit down, and that I do not have the right to come into this House and make my 10-minute speech. I say to Mr Maharey that if Labour puts the House into urgency, we on this side of the House will take every opportunity to debate the legislation, and we do not apologise for it. If members of the Government want to sit there right throughout the Committee stage and refuse to take calls, and if they then want to take the odd 1-minute call in a Labour slot, then they have every right to do that. But Mr Maharey should not criticise National members of Parliament who come here intent on doing their job and delivering their contributions in a debate as important as this one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis is critical legislation and, as I explained earlier, it needs to be passed with some urgency because the principal Act put in an expiry date of 3 years. I have no idea why that happened. I was not involved in the select committee. It would be very interesting if a Labour member took a call about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282fc6dc49a774207b4633e955bc30b3b\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It was a Labour mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227228de34d8b14951808fd647d0480bbb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It probably was a Labour mistake. But I say to Mr Maharey that I am very keen to support the legislation. I just take the opportunity to point out that I find it odd that there are two political parties in the House tonight that do not take the same attitude as the majority of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0de19f9255247559bef30a8a8a8a65e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0de19f9255247559bef30a8a8a8a65e\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E The speech that was just given to the House by David Carter really was a pathetic contribution, and here is the reason for that. He oscillated from being totally sympathetic towards the victims of the terrorist attacks of September 11, to going straight back into raw political attacks on the Prime Minister, on Steve Maharey, on New Zealand First, and on the Greens. Then he returned once again to his almost tear-jerking soft voice, and his Oprah Winfrey - style attempts at connecting with the victims of terrorism all around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EDavid Carter should have given one speech or the other. He should have either got up and talked about how terrible the different political parties in this House were, and gone ruthlessly political, or given a speech in which he would supposedly give his genuine views on the bill. But he tried to do both, and he showed himself to be a silly, silly member in that regard. That was a silly contribution from a man who was beaten three times by Ruth Dyson, because he always mixes the politics in. David Carter should have focused on the bill. I am attacking him only because I cannot believe how silly that speech was. It came from somebody who has been in Parliament for 11 years\u2014and he could well be gone shortly. David Carter engaged in pathetic theatrics and melodrama, and the next thing we would have expected to see from him was a tear-jerking performance, because that was how immature and juvenile he was about it. That was the silliness of that speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) extends the requirements of the law until 2007, and gives the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee the chance to consider it. I hope, when the committee does that, it takes the matter seriously and puts in place a proper process for Parliament to debate, rather than listening to pathetic, political, partisan attacks that are mixed up with School Journal plays. That did not do the member any service, at all. He is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022acbf210065a0494bb98158dae57282fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acbf210065a0494bb98158dae57282fb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I have been stirred into action by the keen words of Labour\u2019s junior whip.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022612d5d7551624f08863192a81198f380\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Are you able to explain how the Government managed to get two calls in a row? If the Government chose not to speak earlier, there is no obligation on the part of the Chair or the Speaker to even things up at all. I was on my feet well before Mr Maharey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2024df959a54e5ca85a73306f62457d\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the calls have been given correctly, Mr Brownlee. Calls are taken out of order many times. We just had two consecutive ones from the National Party, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664f121c7acd467d90a9ad8220133f7c\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Only because they got the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b992f93e2d49fb88ce5d4ed499d91d\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would you like to stand and apologise please, Mr Carter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ace8b9434b4baeaae79468e04ee424\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255a90bb71e864599bb55e82f1e5edb56\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Brownlee that the calls have been given correctly. That often happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cfee9b6c29a48308bfe6e90ae337bcc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table Standing Order 162.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb2a264914c9495aa4edcdcd3870ff08\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table Standing Order 162. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282274b0768ff4992b3a128ca6628ceaa\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table Standing Order 163.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c54a1f27818478bbba318ae95f6b922\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table Standing Order 163. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227724bdba427a44efa3ce9874d67e6a95\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table Standing Order 164.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf1b86f002241aca2e42d375fedfff4\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table Standing Order 164. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281912b725c60484481dee05d0f6a5b1c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. We have just heard one of the more tear-jerking speeches in the House from Mr Carter about how serious this bill is. He invoked the Kurds and 9/11, and here we have Mr Brownlee\u2014right after Mr Carter\u2019s trivialising speech finished\u2014trivialising this debate yet again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe6b1d3e28e4878b2dda94f5177419a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I do notice the deafness that you appear to have to a number of comments that came from the Government benches during a previous exchange. So, to continue, I seek the leave of the House to table Standing Order 165.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022981128d3067747759c4e2b8925efab9e\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. I am going to rule on that point of order. There were interjections from both sides of the House, Mr Brownlee, as there had been for a quite a while\u2014for quite a while before you came in, too. The point is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226655dd0434cc454b8fe56c7bc81890a1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Are you referring to my absence now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c1420d1ada4bd5acfa83189c7e808f\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, I am on my feet, ruling on a point of order. You will stand, withdraw, and apologise for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c6975dce89b4a08b879677216696f8a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7a04e6ea704d6aaa8f254a3391de9c\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was ruling on the point of order. There had been interjections, but there was certainly no need for the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224982774be81c4d21b9e6d76500532974\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table Standing Order 166.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f881a63b0ba4e1485d1cc0706d569a4\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought to table Standing Order 166. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eee1117e9ff34252b9b2646b72c1f5f1\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I raise it because a member cannot, by innuendo, make allegations against members. I am intrigued. Maybe the member is just calling out Standing Orders arbitrarily, but I decided to look up the one he called out, and I saw Standing Order 165 is actually about pecuniary interest. The implication I take from that is that you, Madam Speaker, in making the calls, had some pecuniary interest in calling a Government member. Well, that is bribery. The member cannot make that implication. If he wants to suggest tabling some Standing Orders, he should do it with more care. If he is just being careless that is one thing, but if he was seeking to table that particular Standing Order for some purpose, then he is asking us to consider that there was a pecuniary interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe member then asked to table Standing Order 166, which relates to the Speaker deciding whether a pecuniary interest is held. I would actually require you, Madam Speaker, to ask the honourable member whether he was making an implication that another member\u2014and in particular, the Speaker\u2014has a pecuniary interest. If the member is doing so, then he should say what it is, because under the Standing Orders he is required to. If he is not making that implication, he should withdraw and apologise for having made such an implication against the Speakership. That seems to me to be going nuclear on an issue, and I really think he ought to come back a little bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db048121326462d94a7b6c8d1d68dcc\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I will ask Mr Brownlee whether he was making such an implication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a62a6737cbdb4ab3a9e5493793a41ffc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, Madam Deputy Speaker. By way of explanation, I say that I just think there is such a reckless disregard for the Standing Orders, and for the precedents of the operation of the House, that I felt it necessary to table all the Standing Orders, in order that we may get some better decorum around the place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3a6a8d53884eb3a602c5b0e879e201\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, it is quite out of order for you to make that allegation against the Speaker, and I think you know that very well. I will give you a final warning about that. You will stand, withdraw, and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f3a8745eaf44ff981fcc12ddd3de32\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I seek the leave of the House to table Standing Order 173. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dcbf01a5d8e4238b4e4dcae5aa201a5\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table Standing Order 173. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c799869d93d41eb9de9732661c98de3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table Standing Order 169.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db706ff085384ed1a35c31376a0585f1\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table Standing Order 169. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f620fd71af74fd992df9ae1f3308ede\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table Standing Order 179.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022352d7208086647be8ec7eccf2e726e18\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has asked for leave to table Standing Order 179. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b337ec982146589c72ca46d511bfc4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder whether I could get some sense of what is going on here. My understanding is that a call was due to be taken by a Labour member, and a Labour member sought it. Mr Brownlee seems to have taken some strange offence at the fact that the standard rules for the allocation of speakers in the debate have been followed. Now, if we are to have this performance, then that is perfectly all right, and it explains why the Opposition did not want to take leave to have question time. But perhaps it may be easier and it may help matters if we simply seek leave for Mr Brownlee to take a call. I am sure we would all be fascinated to hear what he has to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7fe04cb28cf4850a76342d471c979c9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That wasn\u2019t the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd50662d9fe94e848e7d582b55b94f8e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what is the issue? [Interruption] Well, come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a07cb0172da430d8ae73c33ea2aab00\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will call the member who was speaking, the Hon Steve Maharey\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a655f6c7f8e44b67ba3fff77619d19e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Deputy Speaker, I asked for some guidance; I have not had a response. The House has a problem, and if we have this kind of irrational behaviour in the House, usually there is a reason for it, and usually we can sort it out. If Mr Brownlee would explain what he has taken offence at, then we can respond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022269038ffeaf546b4b0eabf79c134e6fa\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All I can say is that I have given several rulings to Mr Brownlee. I have no idea what his problem is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e493b85dd2d34a1db203e2ca47a37187\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps, Madam Deputy Speaker, you could invite Mr Brownlee to tell us, because this behaviour is not seemly in Parliament, even under urgency. I simply want to know what the problem is. I am perfectly happy to try to sort it out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c87589ed5b2b42bdbcdb6339da70efb6\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That seems to be a reasonable request. If Mr Brownlee wants to respond, he obviously can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204a853319ec34b938f006a1f15e31288\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The difficulty is, of course, that having made one explanation already, I have been required to withdraw and apologise for that explanation. That leaves us in a difficult position. It is all very well for the Leader of the House to talk about seemly behaviour, but there were numerous comments\u2014two, in particular, that came from the Government side of the House, and one, in particular, that came from the Minister of Education\u2014that I have taken grave offence to. I have attempted through the Speaker to sort the matter out, but she has not been able to see the point I was making. So if the Government wants to behave in that unseemly manner, then the Government can lose time over it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56d95cea7974e409b32dc29581a08ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I have consulted my colleagues and listened to the member. My understanding is that under Business Committee rulings there is an agreed order of speakers in a second reading debate. Now, the member seems to have taken offence because he was not called, and then he responded to that. He does not seem able to explain to us what the problem is beyond that fact. If that is the origin of the problem, I am perfectly happy to seek leave for the member to take the final call, or an extra call, in the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235e8f8d3728c4e2093e41e38ddfd1baf\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: In order to help the House, it would be useful for the Deputy Prime Minister to know that in the exchange that resulted from the question over who should get the call\u2014I fully accept the Speaker\u2019s ruling on that and understand the convention, and although I find it a little strange that Labour members were not taking calls earlier, but decided to take them later, that is by the by\u2014a comment was made by the Minister of Education, which the Speaker apparently did not hear. I find that amazing, because almost a whisper from the Opposition side of the House is only too readily heard. Indeed, three withdrawals and apologies have been required from me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e1f6326d894340a25285723dc44d01\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I still have no idea of the issue, because Mr Brownlee did not raise a point of order at the time. If there was a concern about another member and it had been raised, I would obviously have dealt with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bebea36266f414fb4ebaaadbba44931\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The first thing is that I just wanted to check the calls, because I thought maybe my maths might be wrong. I realise the member has moved on from this issue, but the rest of the House thought that what he was objecting to was a limited time debate, with a number of speakers. In fact, when the calls are added up, we see that the Speaker had added them up correctly. There was only one slot left, and it was a Government slot. Those are the numbers; I have just checked that my maths is correct. So the suggestion made by Dr Cullen is actually not an answer, because in fact only the Labour Party is now entitled to speak. Everyone else has spoken. The numbers are fair. But I think Mr Brownlee\u2019s objection relates to a different matter. An interjection was made that he has taken very great exception to. I do point out that it has taken a long time to find that out, because there has been no point of order to say what that interjection was. I did hear Mr Brownlee say that he thought there was some deafness. Well, perhaps I share that, because I did not hear the interjection. It appears to me that a nice way of proceeding would actually be for Mr Maharey to rise, withdraw, and apologise for whatever remark he made. The House could then hear what Mr Maharey thinks about terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a58d69715ed04f1bba015a41cd582540\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, that is a sensible suggestion. I was concentrating on the issue before the House, and I still am not aware that there was a point of order, as Mr Prebble says, on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d768cd6c8fe247d7abf02d4583daa5c0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Remarks were made by both Mr Maharey and Mr Mallard, to which exception is being taken, so it may be appropriate if they were called upon to withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229294ea9642534c5ebbaf3cef13944e3e\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If any member made an unparliamentary remark\u2014I certainly did not hear it\u2014I ask that member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7969350f04148abbd6707f0d54d7b36\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that I made an unparliamentary remark, and if I did, I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515e113099704f379ab60fa6359bc541\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that I made an unparliamentary remark, and if I did so, I make an unqualified withdrawal and apology. The wind has been drawn from my sails slightly, but the outrage remains. That is why I have decided to follow on from the speech of the junior whip, who himself felt, towards the end of this debate, that it was very important to rise and comment on the fact that we have had two speeches in recent times from National Party members. One was from Mr Wayne Mapp, known on the Government side of the House as the Captain Mainwaring of the National Party, and the other was from David Carter, who has no nickname because no one can remember him from one speech to another. Both speeches agreed with the Government\u2019s position on the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2). Both speeches took a full 20 minutes\u2014I correct myself; they were 10-minute speeches, and they just feel like 20-minute speeches\u2014but both speeches also ruthlessly exploited the underlying issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThat was what so outraged my friend Darren Hughes from the Otaki seat, who sat through those speeches with enormous discipline. He is a young man. He has not been in the House a long time. Darren Hughes is not used to the kind of cynicism that has been on display here this evening, as the National Party members spoke. He has not seen that kind of display of exploitation of the fundamental issues before, because he is young. But as a result of sitting here today, even he could finally take it no longer. Darren Hughes rose to his feet and pointed out the sheer cynicism of the speeches. On the one hand, the speeches agreed with the Labour-led Government and said how urgent this issue is, how we must pass this legislation now, and how we must deal with these issues now. On the other hand, in quavering voices, those members tried to rehearse the kinds of terrorist acts that have led to such outrage around the world. That is what led to my young friend having to rise to his feet this evening. People who are listening at home would, I think, have got the message from Darren Hughes that the National Party actually agrees with this legislation. But we are here in the dead of night at 5 past 11, listening to that kind of rehearsed speech from National members, as they say that they fully agree with the legislation, that they want to pass it, that they see it as urgent, and that they believe we should be voting on it. I will sit down now, knowing that the National Party will now want to move to a vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227ea6f676eb1d4c66826e02fba185003a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 23; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226696d7f65eb14673a2737bb032ea9576\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002289260ca9d7ef4b0395df144eb0899b59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289260ca9d7ef4b0395df144eb0899b59\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) that it take the bill part by part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002271ce918f56a346769fa7ce2078c51e41\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1a1fd64d5934ec18217414ad4da4045\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002229df770004ef41dc97736d56d52f8511\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229df770004ef41dc97736d56d52f8511\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I think it was somewhat unfortunate that the Minister for Social Development and Employment made very light of serious legislation, because the big issue in Part 1 that really troubled a lot of people making submissions on this bill is the need to balance the genuine concern of a nation to make sure it plays its part in combating terrorism with the concerns, which are also genuine, of a lot of people to make sure our legislation does not become too intrusive in respect of individuals\u2019 human rights. There are issues of judgment here, and I think the Minister displayed a lack of understanding of the bill in that last contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Committee should look very carefully at clause 4 in Part 1, which introduces a new criminal offence into the principal Act. The reason why we should look at it carefully is that a sensible member of the House from New Zealand First, Dail Jones, has argued that it is not necessary. He in fact proposes a Supplementary Order Paper that would delete clause 4. As I understand New Zealand First\u2019s argument\u2014and I invite the member to correct me if I am wrong\u2014section 8(1) of the principal Act already covers that concern of New Zealand First. I would argue that that is not the case. If we look carefully at section 8(1) of the principal Act, we see that the funding there refers specifically to funding acts. A person commits an offence who \u201C\u2026 collects funds intending that they be used, or knowing that they are to be used \u2026 in order to carry out 1 or more terrorist acts.\u201D The key word in section 8(1) is \u201Cused\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe gap that section 8(1) leaves is that money could be provided to a terrorist organisation without knowing that it will necessarily be used for any specific purpose, when that organisation could be involved in all manner of terrorist activities. The concern about section 8 on its own\u2014it is a perfectly OK section as far as it goes\u2014is that it is incomplete. It requires a person to know that the funds he or she provides will be used for a terrorist act. All that new section 8(2A), inserted by clause 4, requires a person to know is that he or she is funding a terrorist entity. A person still has to know that, and must not have a reasonable excuse for doing it, so new section 8(2A) sets the bar quite high. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut I think it is worth the House giving careful thought to the challenge that New Zealand First has put in front of us as to whether this new subsection is required. I would argue that it is required because section 8(1) in the principal Act requires that one needs to intend to use the funds, or know that the funds are to be used, in order to carry out one or more acts of a kind that, if they were carried out, would be terrorist acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think National would argue that if we do not insert section 8(2A), as included in clause 4 of the bill, into the principal Act, we leave a grave gap in our law. I know the member has concerns about certain organisations that may be involved in activities that are not all terrorist activities. But putting that aside for the moment, if we delete clause 4 altogether, I think we leave a grave gap in our law, because a defence could then so easily be that someone financing a terrorist organisation, who knows that he or she is financing a terrorist organisation, could argue that the money was not intended to be used for any particular terrorist act and, therefore, maybe find a reasonable defence against the existing section 8(1). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think that it is worth hearing from New Zealand First to make sure that the Committee of the whole House understands Dail Jones\u2019 and New Zealand First\u2019s arguments, but I have tried to put them reasonably. If we do delete clause 4, I think we will leave a serious gap in our law, which is why National would argue that clause 4 must be carried by this Parliament, in order to insert new section 8(2A).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002250cae73c75da442c8ca330c9635c8085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250cae73c75da442c8ca330c9635c8085\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The chairman of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee made a very good point amongst others in his speech. I direct this question to the Minister, and I did not hear him raise the matter in his speech. [Interruption] I did not hear it; I missed it. Could the Minister confirm what the select committee has stated in its report, at the bottom of the first page: \u201CHowever we are now satisfied that neither the intent nor wording of the provision catches the funding of legitimate human rights, humanitarian or democratic rights groups acting solely in this way. We seek the Government\u2019s confirmation that this is indeed its intent.\u201D So I would ask the Minister to confirm whether that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d3b09041017418e9bffa7d1bec63da5\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f65985ba7e4704a4ead2db41c1a8bf\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says \u201CYes\u201D, so that is the Government\u2019s intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f17214fd48b40b387be392e02c1c521\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in my second reading speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2b10cd56fe47a3916ed4fe8f1222d5\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we know what second reading speeches are like sometimes\u2014Phar Lap would not be able to keep up with some Ministers! I am pleased to hear that. The second question I would ask is, when was United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373 actually passed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d376343bd0f246b2bb3940d4a166452d\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: On 28 September 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282e4d6edafbb40599b07c27fd096b225\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: So we have waited almost 4 years to give effect to that part of the resolution in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b49107de759456cbe6b098d059dfd87\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: And we are taking urgency now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc64a6acdb14148a3aa28569c129359\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and they are taking urgency now. Well, maybe that is a good ground, but we have been told how urgent all of this is, yet we have waited 4 years to do it. That is the point I was trying to make earlier on, as well. So we are finally getting around to doing that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMembers have expressed interest in what happened in September 2001. They may be interested to know that I have a half-brother living in New York, who worked very close to the World Trade Center. I was very concerned about his safety and I even rang the New Zealand telephone line that was made available for that purpose. So when people talk about terrorist activities and how they affect people, they affect me perhaps as much as anyone else here, if not more. So New Zealand First and I are very concerned to make sure there are no loopholes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Minister has confirmed that that is the bill\u2019s intent. That will go on the record, because it is already in the record and I have said it already. I will withdraw my amendment, because I have received that confirmation from the Minister. But I want to ask the Minister what happens to a Sri Lankan living in New Zealand who has a mother, father, three brothers, and four sisters, which is not unusual, living in Sri Lanka in the tsunami area controlled by the Tamil Tigers\u2014[Interruption] No, I did not live in Sri Lanka; everyone who lives in Sri Lanka should be very proud of that country, even though the National Party wants to make a racist joke about it\u2014whose mud hut has been wrecked and who are starving. How does that Sri Lankan get money to them? Is there any way of getting money to them other than through the Tamil Tigers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6dd9a5ec9b4e25a03afcd7a3d08da5\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I realise I should have raised this point of order a bit earlier, but referring to what Mr Dail Jones said about jokes, I am sure he would consider on reflection that he probably should not have said that. I take offence at what he said about racist jokes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c723d86c5d3e4cb9a605b6acf4000aca\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I thought I heard some National Party member saying, when I was referring to the suffering of the people of Sri Lanka, that I already come from there, and trying to suggest that in some way. So I responded to that. If members want to interject, they must take what they get in reply. That is in the rules of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289177c5ee2e342c28af3de3b34541ad6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mapp has raised that issue. I was listening and I thought it was a perfectly reasonable response from Mr Jones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f825258aeb8424bafe5b153e7b3495a\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: So you have ruled on it, then\u2014thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. I am just asking what one does if one is a Sri Lankan or an Indonesian in that situation. One\u2019s family overseas is starving, they do not have a roof over their heads, and the only way to get money through to them is by making a contribution to a group like the Tamil Tigers. Will that be a criminal offence? As I have said, New Zealand First has totally supported any action taken against terrorism; we always have and we always will. Sometimes one wants to have a little discussion on a point that is raised in a select committee. I made it clear in my second reading speech that we would be supporting the legislation. Dr Mapp did not quite grasp that, I suspect; otherwise he would not have made some of the comments he made earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESo how would we resolve that situation for a New Zealand family with those links in Sri Lanka in that situation, who want to get some aid to their family? Does that family not give it to the only group that could possibly get it to them? I am sure that if we were in that situation in New Zealand, we would deliberately do everything possible, knowingly, wilfully, etc., to try to get aid to our family in Sri Lanka or wherever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI have lived in Pakistan, and I know how poor people can be. When we talk about poverty levels in New Zealand, we just do not even know what poverty is. We are talking now about people in Sri Lanka who are below even that level after the tsunami. What do people do to keep their families alive when they know they are in a Tamil Tigers - controlled area? I would be interested to hear the Minister comment. But, I repeat, I will withdraw my amendment. It has caused a good discussion, which is what I intended it to do, and I think all the submitters would have liked that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022401ca38358604fb988ba9708b03be036\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022401ca38358604fb988ba9708b03be036\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to two points raised by Dail Jones. I want to repeat, if people will bear with me, the comments I made in my second reading speech, which I think cover the point precisely for the member. I said: \u201CHaving given serious consideration to these concerns, the committee was satisfied, as I am, that neither the intent nor wording of the offence will catch persons who provide or collect funds for groups with no connection to terrorist activity. Nor will it risk criminalising the unwitting donation of funds to terrorist entities, for example, via a terrorist group\u2019s apparently legitimate front organisation. To be captured by the new offence, a person must intend that the money provided or raised will directly or indirectly benefit an entity which they know carries out terrorist acts: this is a significant burden for the prosecution to satisfy in any particular case.\u201D So a person must intend and know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to come back to\u2014and I am pleased to hear that the member is withdrawing his amendment, but I think I can just confirm for him the wisdom of doing so\u2014is that if we look at schedule 4 of the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, we see the reproduction of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373. In clause 1(d), there is a very clear obligation on signatories to take actions that: \u201CProhibit their nationals or any persons and entities within their territories from making any funds, financial assets or economic resources or financial or other related services available, directly or indirectly, for the benefit of persons who commit or attempt to commit or facilitate or participate in the commission of terrorist acts, of entities owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by such persons and of persons and entities acting on behalf of or at the direction of such persons;\u201D. So it is very clear that entities have to be dealt with, as well as individuals and acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E To pick up on the point made by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, I tell members that if we were going to be concerned about the financing of terrorist acts only, we would miss a whole range of terrorist activity such as the financing of organisations for the training and upskilling, and so on, of terrorists. So in fact we would be saying it was OK to finance the resourcing of terrorist organisations, but not the actual acts or commission of those organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand law, therefore, as it currently stands, falls short of compliance with the UN Council resolutions, and that is what we are seeking to address here tonight. If we had adopted Mr Jones\u2019 resolution, we would have fallen short of our obligations under the UN, and that would not be the right thing for New Zealand to do. We usually do the right thing and support UN resolutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022f00f24e0962d4675bb25890dff083c73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f00f24e0962d4675bb25890dff083c73\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I think that the Minister\u2019s contribution and Mr Jones\u2019 earlier contribution were particularly useful, and I just simply want to acknowledge Mr Jones\u2019 withdrawal of his amendment, and the Minister\u2019s restatement of the assurance that he gave in his second reading speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee was concerned about making it absolutely clear\u2014and this is almost one of those cases where one has to make it absolutely, absolutely clear\u2014that the sentiment we all thought was being captured by this provision was, in fact, the reality that the innocent, unwitting, genuinely motivated person who feels a sense of compassion for those who are suffering, and who decides to give support to campaigns designed to alleviate that suffering, does not then find himself or herself entrapped by the subsequent revelation that the organisation to whom he or she is giving support might have links to terrorist organisations. The select committee has no sympathy for the terrorist, but a lot of sympathy for the genuine donor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs members of the select committee will recall, we certainly agonised for some time about how effective the provision in the bill would be in giving that protection. We became satisfied that the test was sufficiently high in a number of cases to give that assurance. We then thought it would be critically important for the Government to restate the obvious, in fact, so that anyone looking at the bill as it is eventually passed, the select committee\u2019s report, and the content of the debate in this House\u2014and the judiciary have been known to do that on many occasions\u2014would be left in no doubt as to what the true intent of the bill was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think Mr Jones has done us a useful service by moving an amendment that actually focused our attention on the particular provision. That made us not only consider it but also debate it here this evening, and place on record the absolute assurance and clarity that we feel about what this provision means in reality. I do not think it can be restated often enough that those who are genuine, well motivated, and innocent in terms of their intent have nothing to fear from the provision contained in this bill that we are about to pass. And I think that is where I should end this contribution because it really is the nub of the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s intent is a genuine one. It does protect the innocent, but it also makes clear our abhorrence of the activity that people are concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5c0e0031809437da7789bda39b68b34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5c0e0031809437da7789bda39b68b34\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Dr Wayne Mapp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00226908dc03f4b0449394b6c9e5ab800de9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226908dc03f4b0449394b6c9e5ab800de9\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. In this debate the Green Party is the only party opposing the bill. There have been a whole series of speakers supporting the bill, and it seems that the Green Party is being bypassed. It does not seem\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022c75b61e8028e4bbd93f8c730aec360e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c75b61e8028e4bbd93f8c730aec360e0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I make the choice of speakers. I note that you do not agree with it, but it will remain Dr Mapp, and we will come to you in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb01d589924a4417af949925f96700fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb01d589924a4417af949925f96700fe\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a comment on the comment that Mr Locke has just made. He said that the Greens are now the only party opposing the bill, and that is true. It is also worth reflecting upon the fact that the Greens represent 5 percent of New Zealand. Strictly speaking, one might expect them to get only one call in 20, but, of course, it does not quite work that way. So I believe that the Green Party can hardly say that in this Parliament their views are not well represented. I appreciate that Mr Locke puts a lot of work into representing his viewpoint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to pick up briefly on the points that others have made about the important distinction between act and entity. Section 8(1) of the Terrorism Suppression Act\u2014and I am pleased that New Zealand First has now recognised the reality of this\u2014applies only to funding the terrorist act itself. It has taken this bill, the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2), to rectify what should have been done before, under the United Nations convention\u2014that is, to include the funding of entities themselves. That is the sort of thing that needs to be fixed up. It does speak of a general problem. There is no doubt that the legislation in 2002 was passed in urgency, and I do not mean \u201Curgency\u201D in a parliamentary sense, but under the tempo of urgent times. There was an immediate need, internationally, to strengthen domestic law and international law to deal with the scourge of terrorism, and most countries have acted. It is also true to say that most countries have had to fix up their legislation, as well, because, in the nature of things, legislation passed quickly is unlikely to be entirely perfected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that National supports, very strongly indeed, the measures to strengthen the laws against terrorism. Both myself and Mr Carter are deeply offended by the statements of two Government speakers: the junior Labour whip and Mr Maharey. They alleged\u2014not just alleged; actually stated\u2014that we were insincere and were trivialising the issue. That is entirely false. I think it is quite reprehensible for the Government\u2014[Interruption] Well, Mr Hughes\u2019 colleague Mr Maharey included myself, I would have to say, and I think it is quite reprehensible for the Government to make that allegation. At no point did any of the National speakers seek to score some political point against the Government on this issue. We recognise that the Government has been reasonably forthright\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f77b5b371e44ba9a4542dc7b14ecf8\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Carter did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225494d19ba8eb4c9e8ac42d2011acd730\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: No, he did not. He had been forthright in dealing with terrorism. We recognise that a substantial contribution by the New Zealand armed forces has been committed over a substantial period of time, and indeed it is continuing to deal literally with the lair of terrorism in Afghanistan. I think it is unfortunate that the debate in that particular area took an unfortunate turn, because it says that the Government, maybe due to nervousness about an upcoming poll, is losing perspective and its members are making personal attacks whenever they can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOn an issue like this, I think it is reasonable that we raise our sights and deal with the issue seriously. I have to acknowledge that Mr Locke does deal with the issues seriously. He does not try to personalise them. He always puts his point of view forward reasonably. I do not agree with it\u2014it is fundamentally wrong. He does not seem to recognise the dangers of terrorism. But to have personality politics intrude into a debate of this nature, I think, was hugely unfortunate, and lamentable in particular from a senior front-bencher of the Government. I conclude by saying I would like to think that the Government would take on board those comments. We on this side of the House expect serious issues relating to national security to be debated without personality politics being played out in this Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00227df64c3f4b0c46a997eeb248ff9fb440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227df64c3f4b0c46a997eeb248ff9fb440\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. The original section 8(1) in the principal Act prohibited funds intended to be used for terrorist acts\u2014funds directed towards actually doing terrorist acts. The new provision concerns the giving of funds knowing they will benefit an entity that carries out terrorist acts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E One of the points, I think that was made by Lockwood Smith, was that we have to have that provision, because there might be front organisations and we do not really know whether the front organisation will do the terrorist act, but the funds for the terrorist act may go via the front organisation\u2014such as an al-Qaeda front organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut if members just leave it on that level, I think they are misunderstanding it. That clause is aimed at stopping support for and, in effect, destroying such organisations, one of whose activities is terrorist acts. I think we can put terrorism within an al-Qaeda frame too much, in that al-Qaeda\u2014[Interruption] No, let me explain that. The al-Qaeda is a very covert organisation, it does not control any territory, and it has conducted a series of horrific terrorist acts. It is different from organisations that are nationalist, ethnic groups, and liberation groups like the African National Congress in South Africa, which have genuine mass support and often have controlled territory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn the case of some of the Palestinian groups, perhaps we could put that definition on them\u2014and on the Tamil Tigers. But it is questionable whether we can, in fact, define the Tamil Tigers as a terrorist organisation now. A lot of people would say that we cannot, given the peace that has occurred in Sri Lanka for the last few years. But the Tamil Tigers are relevant to the debate, because they are designated as terrorists by Britain, Australia, and the United States, and are treated by some of our State agencies in a de facto manner, even if not by the Government itself officially at a political level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat is a good test case. For instance, if we want to advance peace in Sri Lanka and the welfare of the Sri Lankan people, perhaps we can get off the topic of tsunami relief, although that is also relevant. If we go back to the wording the Minister used, we note that one has to have an intent to give aid while knowing that the organisation engages in terrorist acts. If we did define the Tamil Tigers as terrorists, then a lot of people giving aid to tsunami relief would do it knowingly\u2014that is, knowing that the aid would go via a Tamil Tiger channel\u2014so they would not, in the Minister\u2019s words, \u201Cdo it unwittingly\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut the problem is whether, in our approach to helping the situation in Sri Lanka\u2014both on the tsunami-aid level, or on the political level of advancing the peace process\u2014our aim is to destroy the Tamil Tigers. Destroying such organisations is the essence of this amending legislation, as is the piece the Minister read from resolution 1373. Is our aim to destroy a nationalist organisation\u2014be it the African National Congress in the past, or the Tamil Tigers more recently\u2014that has in the past engaged in some sort of sabotage or activity that has killed civilians and can be defined as terrorism, or do we want to deal with New Zealanders\u2019 support for real terrorist acts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIf we look at the northern and eastern areas of Sri Lanka today, we see that the Tamil Tigers are supported not just in terms of tsunami relief. I have been through the Tamil Tiger areas of Sri Lanka. I did that a couple of years ago. All sorts of aid organisations are there, from Oxfam to Unicef, and all the UN organisations are engaged in all sorts of projects, including projects for building a civil structure and leading to an advance in the peace process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8342123af414fd5b8371594d009f6ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8342123af414fd5b8371594d009f6ef\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Locke has correctly told the Committee that the Green Party is the only party that is now opposing this bill, so I listened and tried to find out whether he has a coherent position. I have to say to him that I do not think his position is coherent. I even went back to look at his earlier arguments when he voted against the original bill. [Interruption] Oh yes, and when he voted against the original bill he stated that his reasons were that he did not like the designation of terrorist groups around the world by countries like the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI have to say to him that I think his motivation for this bill is that he is fixated about the United States. I think he thinks that anything the United States does is somehow evil and wrong, and he is one of those people who thinks that the United States brought it on itself that the World Trade Center bombings occurred. I actually think that that is his position, and has been right the way through his whole life. I find it interesting that the Green Party, which has managed to sell itself to the country as being an environmental organisation, is actually carrying within it a person like Mr Locke who I have never heard make a speech about the environment. All I hear from him are rabid speeches against the United States, against capitalism, against things that most New Zealanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b20ad8db14d4251a06e81cdc9a66574\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Watermelon party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022597403366a844ade864c460146a04269\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member likes to say how sincere he is on these matters, but I do not think he is sincere. If he were sincere he would be prepared to tell us that the reason he is not supporting this bill is that he does support the objectives of various terrorist organisations; he most certainly does. He can say that he does not remember, or that he was misconstrued when he wrote stories about Pol Pot. Right throughout his whole life he has done that. He may not like it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cba7562d19347c49fa73f6307e5d4a4\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. On previous occasions members have been forced to withdraw and apologise for trying to say that I supported Pol Pot. The reference here has that definite implication, and I would ask the member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3662988943a4184ac52378fe0631595\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we have been through this before. I have tabled the papers before. I am happy to see whether I can find them. I will have to borrow Winston Peters\u2019 papers, I think. I am certain I can find them again. I most certainly am not prepared to withdraw the accusation I am making against him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d8bb0b0320e49369b996d10dafea7be\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It has been established, and I can get the dates, that members have withdrawn and apologised, for this very reason\u2014on the assurance from me that I have never supported Pol Pot and his crimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022bff4c7f185ab4a5895a4dc1c2ccc0253\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bff4c7f185ab4a5895a4dc1c2ccc0253\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising that. I do not think that is quite what the member was saying. It seems a sort of paranoia\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202fbd657aa3945d4949dae28592a8db5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Let me put it to the honourable member this way. The reason he got himself into problems with Pol Pot, and the reason he now finds himself in this extraordinary position on this bill, is that he is so anti the United States he actually thinks that we in this Chamber should support anyone who is also opposed to the United States. A line has to be drawn somewhere. It may be difficult to determine exact definitions of terrorist organisations, but that does not mean to say there is no such thing as terrorism. There most certainly is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThis bill says that we should not give money to entities that we know are engaged in terrorism. Only the Green Party is saying the contrary\u2014that it ought to be lawful in this country to raise money and send it to an organisation that we know is murdering people in terrorism. Mr Locke says that is what we ought to do. That is what the Green Party ought to campaign on during this election campaign. Green Party members should not go through the election campaign saying: \u201CWe\u2019re a bunch of conservationists, but when we get into Parliament we will hold the whole House up and we will be alone in saying it should be lawful in this country to support terrorism.\u201D When Mr Locke looks back at his record he will find that he has voted against every single measure that has been raised in this House, even though the United Nations has supported it, and even though it is supported by every democratic party of the world. I ask him how he can possibly claim to be a Green member of Parliament. No, he is not. He is an extremist. He is the reddest MP who has ever been in this Parliament and that is what he ought to tell the Committee before he votes on this measure again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00223159aa1e2bf94b9a8f64fd2c9ed3c3c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223159aa1e2bf94b9a8f64fd2c9ed3c3c2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u002229270a7e38684105bfd2ba5c652cc90e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229270a7e38684105bfd2ba5c652cc90e\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting to listen to Keith Locke talk about this bill, because he makes comments about \u201Creal terrorism\u201D as if somehow there is terrorism that is not genuine. It seems that Keith Locke believes that terrorism is very much in the eyes of the beholder. He says that one person\u2019s terrorist is another person\u2019s freedom fighter. I cannot think of any person in this country who would see Osama bin Laden as a freedom fighter. So I endorse the comments made by Richard Prebble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI am concerned about clause 4, and I draw the attention of the Committee to something I think could be a loophole in that clause. Clause 4 states that it is an offence if we give money to someone knowing that they will benefit, and the entity has to be one that carries out, or participates in the carrying out of, one or more terrorist acts. My question to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rick Barker, is why does he specify the number of terrorist acts\u2014because, for example, we could have a situation whereby a company\u2014[Interruption] If the Minister would stop laughing and listen to my point he might find that it is a valid one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EAn organisation or a trust may be set up for the express purpose of carrying out terrorism acts but may not have actually done anything yet. Clause 4 states that the entity is already carrying out or participating in terrorist acts. What happens if the organisation is set up for the express purpose of undertaking terrorist acts but has not done anything yet? So people could be giving their money to an organisation that has the intention of carrying out acts of terrorism, but has not actually carried out any such acts. I wonder whether the clause could be improved by adding a reference that states something like \u201Cthe organisation intends to carry out one or more terrorist acts\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208270b3e2d8c4cab96079ebd98a93724\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: You would have to prove it. It\u2019s very hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f617371d70fe4da881d7f97cb2a1d6f2\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not making a point about putting a number on it, because I think that is fine. We want to know that they are participating in something. But what happens if the organisation has not done anything yet? That leads me on to my next point, which is that the benchmark is set extremely high. How are we ever going to prove that someone intended to give funding to a terrorist organisation? How can we get inside the mind of that person? What sort of evidence will have to be demonstrated in order to prove that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EAt the moment, our police have serious rape cases sitting in in trays. Is the Minister really saying that the police will turn their attention to finding out who Granny Rich gave her donation to in the main street of Wellington? The benchmark seems to be very high and I am concerned that the chances of catching anybody are just about zip. It has to be demonstrated that the person knew. How do we do that? It has to be demonstrated that the person intended the money to go to a terrorist organisation, which is very difficult to do. As we know, al-Qaeda is just one example. It works in little, separate cells whereby even the people involved in those cells do not know whom they are linked to or what they are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe key point is that there is a loophole in that clause that one could drive a bus through. Frankly, if anybody is serious about carrying out acts of terrorism, all that person has to do is set up a new organisation that has not actually done anything yet\u2014that has not bombed anything yet or killed anybody yet\u2014and that organisation, technically, has not been involved in, or carried out, any terrorist acts at all. Listing that an organisation must have been involved in one or more terrorist acts does not capture organisations that willingly bring themselves together in order to continue acts of terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022313ca670eac64c1dbef2949673df8b95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022313ca670eac64c1dbef2949673df8b95\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Tainui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d3a59254f20499196341ebbdd5d93f2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 23; ACT New Zealand 6; Green Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001298\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Keith Locke to clause 4 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001299\u0022\u003Eto omit the reference \u201C(2)\u201D, and substitute the reference \u201C(1)\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001300\u0022\u003Eto omit the reference \u201C(2A)\u201D, and substitute the reference \u201C(1A)\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001301\u0022\u003Eto omit from section 8(2) of the principal Act after the words \u201CTo avoid doubt, nothing in\u201D, the words \u201Csubsection (1)\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Csubsections (1) or (1A).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002257b78ff1f2f042a180d7f3396a315329\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 23; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224276a7a7f8e944df8550e8630755748c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 23; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228ff96af6ed4454e81fd7f7c29e0e644\u0022\u003EPart 2  Extension of existing designations and consequential amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022f29551db1e55457b8f440167bc33100d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f29551db1e55457b8f440167bc33100d\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek your guidance on how you are will conduct the division of calls in this debate, because I express a concern on behalf of the Green Party that in Part 1 we received only one call. Although in terms of the size of the party in Parliament there may be an argument for that number, in this particular bill we are the only party against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere are three other factors that I think are relevant to the division of the calls. First, we are moving amendments and I was not given a chance in Part 1 to explain my amendments. I was not given enough time to do so. Secondly, it is not that the contributions of the Green Party have been ignored in the debate\u2014in fact, a number of speakers in favour of the bill criticised either the Green Party or myself, or both. I think if we are to have fairness in this Parliament that has to be taken into account. Thirdly, I do not think that it was taken into account in the debate on Part 1, because people were voting on an amendment that had not been properly explained to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00221ad68f739e0940acbf0afc22491c7af7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ad68f739e0940acbf0afc22491c7af7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising that matter. The Chair tends to give the calls proportionately to different parties and different speakers. I think that is the fairest way. I am conscious of the fact that you are on your own, and that you have amendments. In this part, certainly, I will try to give you more than one go at it, and I will tell subsequent Chairs to be conscious of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00223a329b8d982845239d61b185bc808c68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a329b8d982845239d61b185bc808c68\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In examining Part 2 the clause that is of particular interest is really clause 6, and clause 6 is all about section 22 of the principal Act. Section 22 established designated terrorist entities. In fact, it established, from memory, 318 designations of terrorist entities. What the Labour Government rather foolishly did when it passed the principal Act back in 2002\u2014which is why I am a bit critical\u2014was to put into the law a provision that the High Court would have to review each of those 318 designations when they expired 3 years later. The end of those 3 years, from the passage of that legislation in 2002, comes up in October this year. Of course, that is a ridiculous situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI told the Government at the time we were debating the legislation back in 2002 that other countries do not temporarily designate terrorist organisations. I pointed out that countries like Canada and the European Union do not impose such limitations on their designations. But, no, the Labour Government here in New Zealand decided\u2014I guess it was a very politically correct move\u2014to designate those terrorist organisations for just 3 years, and to put into the law a requirement for the High Court to then review those designations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMembers should think about it: imagine the evidential requirements on the High Court to go about reviewing 318 designations. How many months would that tie up the High Court for? I struggle to think how long reviewing the designations would tie up the High Court. One would imagine the High Court would have to do it carefully, because I guess some of those designated entities are not that well known to New Zealanders and, therefore, a fair bit of evidence would have to be gathered to assess whether the designations should be extended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAlthough clause 6 extends the designations for a further period of 2 years from the passage of this legislation, I would urge the Government to think through\u2014National would be happy to help\u2014a better way of handling the issue of designations. I would suggest that once an entity is designated, the onus should be on the entity to prove that it should come off the list. Then we would have the reverse situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere is a good reason why the United Nations designated those entities. They are not entities that New Zealanders designated willy-nilly; they are entities designated by the United Nations. Sure, we can add some, but if New Zealand adds additional ones there would have to be a good reason for it. I think a much more sensible approach would be that, if an entity believes that it should no longer be designated or is improperly designated, it would have to apply to the court to have itself removed from the schedule of designations. I would argue that that would make more sense than requiring the Crown to go through this ridiculous process of having to review 318 designations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENational will support Part 2 because the Government has not brought forward decent amending legislation, but as part of the review of this Act under section 70, I think the select committee should look very hard at a much more sensible approach to designation review. I think that such entities should be designated permanently, although there should be a procedure for entities that feel they are incorrectly designated\u2014that is, if their activities are no longer terrorist activities. It is possible, I suppose, that a terrorist organisation could turn over a new leaf and, in those circumstances, there should be a mechanism for an entity to come to the High Court and make its case for removal from the list of designations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI stress that National will support clause 6. Clearly, we have to because we cannot leave a situation whereby the High Court is facing, from October this year onwards, a shambles of having to reassess 318 designations. What is more, if the High Court cannot do it rapidly enough, some of those designations will lapse and that would be very unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d12ce82160814445aba833bad5aac198\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d12ce82160814445aba833bad5aac198\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The points made by the Hon Lockwood Smith are well made. Firstly, it would be unacceptable to have 318 cases before the High Court, jamming it up. That is exactly why we are here passing this legislation. Secondly, the issues around the process of designation and removing entities do deserve good consideration, and that is what the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee is looking at now. We welcome the member\u2019s input and the committee\u2019s views. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EFinally, I will comment on Mr Locke\u2019s amendment, which seeks to omit the expression \u201C2 years\u201D and substitute \u201C1 year\u201D. That would shorten the time recommended by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee in its report, and the Government will oppose that amendment. We could very well wind up in exactly the same position we are in now, whereby we would have to come back to the House to pass legislation to extend the time. Of course, that would be a nonsense, so we will be voting against that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00229cc27645a5d64a6ea76474a00e54e37c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cc27645a5d64a6ea76474a00e54e37c\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E My amendment, as the Minister has just said, would reduce the period of extension from 2 years to 1 year, and that was actually a recommendation made by the Human Rights Commission in its submission. It is concerned, and put forward a very detailed paper, about the weakness of the United Nations process. I can elaborate a bit: there have been incorrect designations because the United Nations Counter-Terrorism Committee, which processes these designations, does not have a proper interrogation process. It does not have a process for informing those so designated, which would allow them to make submissions. There is not due process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from midnight to 9 a.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200506145f5b62326fdb494e8d48f25951f4fb69001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfcf8a045d0b412cbd28948447057b0a\u0022\u003ETuesday, 14 June 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b938422e079c4c9eb49482717ccc5bc6\u0022\u003E(continued on Friday, 17 June 2005)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad36779d7dac406a91fca335c91cf641\u0022\u003ETerrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d607dfcecba041a0a7a5f38080c01425\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e4a6f8bc9fc4b8788e9d78dc4723549\u0022\u003EPart 2  Extension of existing designations and consequential amendments (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00220d895337045c41759ea11f25ff80b549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d895337045c41759ea11f25ff80b549\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I was speaking about the question of the extension under this bill of the designations that were made shortly after the original Act was passed in 2002. The initial designations were basically from the United Nations on Taliban and al-Qaeda entities. Under this bill they would be rolled out for another couple of years. There are two criticisms of that, and they were made quite strongly by the Human Rights Commission in its submission to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe commission wondered why the Government, knowing that those designations were expiring\u2014and there was a renewal process involving the courts\u2014had not made the applications to the High Court to begin the process of renewing those designations. That could easily have been done. The Government should not at this point, particularly with the review of the whole Terrorism Suppression Act in Parliament, push out the designations. It is not a good process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EA lot of the discussion today has been to say that the High Court could not do this, it would be too much work, the High Court could not do anything else. In fact, the High Court could work out how to do it, and what staff it would retain to do the checking. But there is a provision in the original Act that the evidence from the United Nations be deemed as sufficient if there is no other countervailing evidence. So it would be a matter of going through and checking whether any countervailing evidence is available. In several cases there would be. It is just as easy for a court to carry out that process, with the proper advice, as for politicians to do it, with the proper advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EA number of other countries have addressed this issue. Sweden addressed it, because certain of its citizens who are of Somali origin were put on the US list. Sweden asked the US for information on these citizens. All it got was a set of press clippings\u2014a bit like the Security Intelligence Service and Ahmed Zaoui. When the Refugee Status Appeals Authority wanted information from the Security Intelligence Service on him, all it got was a bunch of press clippings. Those Somalis had suffered because there were problems with their assets being seized by the European Union and all kinds of things, based on this false information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the problems with the UN designation system is that it is based on information provided by Governments. There is no proper checking, there is no notification of the personal entity designated, there is no procedure for them to challenge that designation, and in the case of those Swedish people of Somali origin, there was no way forward for them, other than through the Swedish Government, because only States can take a case to the Counter-terrorism Committee. So unless the State backs them up, and Sweden did in this case, they are left out on a limb. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think we know the way the United States operates on these questions, and I refer to all the people rotting at Guantanamo Bay without due process. The United States Government operates a very loose process when determining who is or who is not a terrorist or a terrorist entity. There are a lot of errors in the system. The first Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill, which was originally part of another bill\u2014we are dealing with the No 2 bill today\u2014was designed to allow the Government to take off entities that had been designated, and I think one or two have been taken off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe do not need to make up for the weakness of the Government in not putting forward to the High Court a designation process for the 318, or thereabouts, designations that took place 3 years ago and will expire on this October. I think the whole question of due process lies at the bottom of all this, and it has been commented on. Very good comments have been made by leading justices in the House of Lords, and by Kofi Annan himself. They make the point all through that if we undermine civil liberties in the name of the fight against terrorism, we actually only create more terrorists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI believe that there is agreement among everyone in this House to do the most to fight terrorism in all its forms. We should do it in a way that respects due process, because otherwise we get into this horrible situation of creating more terrorists. Of course, unfortunately, because of the US invasion and all the mayhem that has followed, Iraq today is a seedbed for more terrorists. When some of those people go back to other countries we will have an even greater danger. Doing things in a way that does not violate conventions, be they conventions on human rights or conventions against invading other countries, actually undermines the terrorists. Terrorists survive only by being able to draw a certain amount of support among people\u2014support that enables them to carry out their horrific acts against people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EJust to elaborate further on the Swedish case that I referred to, I point out that the Swedish Government filed an unsuccessful request with the 1267 Committee of the United Nations to have these people removed from the UN list. It was only after prolonged efforts with the United States, that the United States joined Sweden in requesting the delisting of two of the three individuals and they were taken off the list. There is one Somali still on that list, because the United States would not cooperate. So we are in bit of a mess. The Human Rights Commission indicated that we have to listen to all the critiques. Kofi Annan\u2019s high-level panel that he set up a year or two ago, headed by Australian Gareth Evans, came out with very strong criticisms of the UN designation process too. So we should not treat this designation process as sacrosanct. We cannot just postpone all the designations, and everything will be sweet. We have to look at due process if we are to truly combat the terrorist threat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere are a whole lot of criticisms around the world of the way anti-terrorism legislation has been applied. In my second reading speech, and in some of the discussion that followed, there was talk about Guantanamo Bay. I think that that is a case study of the worst situation that operates. People have been rotting there for years, without access to due process. Bit by bit they are being released and sent back to their home countries. Some of them have been tortured in one way or another, while in Guanatanamo Bay or in other countries\u2014at Bagram Airbase, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Human Rights Commission has recommended to the select committee that before sole reliance is placed on UN-sourced designations, as designations that may be extended without substantive review, ministries administering the Terrorism Suppression Act carry out an analysis of the UN procedure used to list and delist individuals and groups designated, and note the strengths and shortcomings identified in those procedures, particularly with the observance of political rights. The select committee, it hopes, will report that it is able to determine the importance of domestic High Court review of the designations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002235b76a78f665498dba2ad912dd6cb0d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235b76a78f665498dba2ad912dd6cb0d6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call this morning on Part 2. I just wonder whether the Associate Minister of Justice can help me with my understanding of the legislation. As I understand Part 2, it is about providing an extension of time to a schedule of organisations that have been identified as terrorist organisations. If the Minister can confirm that for me, I would be grateful. I then would like him to explain to me how organisations are recognised and placed on that schedule. That is the second question I would certainly be grateful for his help with. I see he is busily digging out the original Act, which will be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E But the third and most vital point is that Part 2 extends, as I understand it, the principal Act\u2019s original expiry date for the list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d49a82354e3d43259b2e1f18de15ffdb\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Quite right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ab842002b94c989eca822484af87d8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, will then be well aware that, in the original legislation, the House determined that the list, once developed, would expire. I assume it takes considerable time to develop a list of terrorist organisations. I would hate to think that organisations doing good work around the world, perhaps for humanitarian causes, are inadvertently or incorrectly placed on this list. But the surprising thing to me\u2014and I would certainly appreciate the Minister\u2019s help on this\u2014is that, the list having been developed, the original legislation has an expiry date so that, at the end of 3 years, suddenly that list effectively just evaporates. It seems to me a nonsense that an organisation like al-Qaeda could be placed on a schedule as a recognised terrorist organisation\u2014and there can be no doubt\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca8a33b698bb4c9eb276bac4296e5514\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: They turn good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222497327d26024b7db696fa839e7166bf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it will be a long, long time before Osama bin Laden turns good. Keith Locke may well believe that, and he is welcome to explain why he thinks Osama bin Laden might turn good. But the important thing for the Minister to explain is why the Government ever developed the notion that the original list would suddenly reach an expiry date. I would certainly appreciate the Hon Rick Barker seeking a bit of advice, rising to his feet, and answering that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe final point I want clarification on is why we are extending the date, in this amendment bill that is now being rushed through under urgency to cover up the original mistake made by the Labour Government, for a further 2 years only. I know that member will not be in Government, or in Parliament, then, but why will we, on the expiry date in the amendment legislation we are passing today, have to look at passing another bill? These organisations are placed on the list after due diligence and a lot of hard work, and we will suddenly find that they reach an expiry date after which the list effectively evaporates. It just seems to me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207cd44f5fafa4d0abc2cbfafc0a0d65d\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Ask your colleague next to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de11a8e9c20408c96759286dccd27f4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have certainly taken the opportunity of asking my colleague next to me, the Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, and there would be no doubt in my mind, having listened to his contributions and the odd contribution from the likes of the Hon Steve Maharey last night, that Lockwood Smith knows more about this legislation than anyone else in the Chamber. There would be no doubt about that. But I fail to see how the Minister can suggest that it is his responsibility to sit there, not be prepared to answer questions throughout the Committee stage, and expect that those questions should be satisfactorily answered by an Opposition member, Lockwood Smith. If the Minister is acknowledging that he does not really understand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7463e51677248a1ba957db8d9d1da6f\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: If the member had listened to Lockwood Smith\u2019s speech he would have got the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b369b26f2cb4a869d22be7d77151eca\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says I should have listened to Lockwood Smith\u2019s speech. I was not here in time to hear it, but if the Minister is really suggesting that he and Lockwood Smith should change position, maybe that is the most satisfactory solution. Well, that will happen shortly. But if the Minister intends to answer in that way the questions that I have legitimately raised\u2014the Minister has acknowledged that; he says they are good questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d59c8ceb7144992afb3b926341e2d58\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Very clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246ef455083e94045bc0afae25e073df8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Even the Minister can understand them, so they must be particularly well espoused by myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8ca9ffabe7d48e2a6fe3218481cc289\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 22 answers your question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022790190ee94034d0ebb45710cb5642272\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There is no clause 22 in Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5618e260ca94f1da8190f14908b5066\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c506760de1e44a6a836a4dfaa47f19e4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He is now suggesting we go back to the principal Act. Well, the Minister should really explain that himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00222ed722e906d34a9898e765b6cbf62b7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ed722e906d34a9898e765b6cbf62b7a\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I would appreciate the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, giving the Committee a little guidance on where things are at currently with the designations. Although Part 2 of the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) extends existing designations, I would appreciate from the Minister a bit of an update as to where things are at. When the principal Act was passed, as I recollect, there were 318 designated terrorist organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487c767b5a144576a0869e9ad0374baa\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Still are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cad7f9d2d584e1793ca35d6debf7796\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My advice is that New Zealand now has 420. As I also understand it, the United Nations now has 433. This is quite important, because if there are 433 organisations considered by the United Nations to be terrorist organisations\u2014I know Keith Locke may not consider them to be, but if the United Nations thinks they are, then that is quite important\u2014at what stage will New Zealand\u2019s list be updated? We are extending the existing list for 2 years, but I would appreciate advice on whether our list has been updated yet to pick up the full 433 designated terrorist organisations that I understand are on the United Nations list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI realise that some organisations come off and others go on, and that is a continuous process, but I think it is quite important, while we are looking at this issue of extension, that we give a little bit of thought to how we make sure we are right up to date with which organisations are terrorist. I realise we have a little bit of an out in that, because\u2014and I am not sure that members realised this when we were debating Part 1\u2014in fact, funding terrorist organisations is illegal whether or not they are designated. I do not know whether a lot of members picked up that fact when we were debating clause 4\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a51bb2d6ee449009a2b20af5118a41c\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: That would account for why the Greens are so concerned about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf5a3e4438b44e49b5226894c4b770ba\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Richard Prebble says that in jest, but there have been members of the Green Party who have done some pretty crazy and outrageous things around New Zealand. Their actions may or may not have threatened life or limb, but they have certainly been terrorist in their intent in terms of the damage they have sought to do to other interests around New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut that is an important issue. I think the Committee should understand that terrorist organisations do not have to be designated for it to be illegal for people to finance them. Part 2 extends the list of designated organisations, and I would appreciate the Minister\u2019s advice on where we are at, at the moment, with our designation work. What are we extending, in terms of our numbers? I think the Minister would agree with me that it is not the 318 organisations that were originally designated that we are now extending. I would think it is the 420 that are on the list, but I would appreciate the Minister\u2019s guidance. If the United Nations has a further 13 organisations on its list, and we bring them on to our list, will they be automatically taken through to the full extended time of the designations that we are extending now? I am happy to take my seat if the Minister could clarify those points for us. I would appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022648b2d256ac843f7a44347f3ff5b0671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022648b2d256ac843f7a44347f3ff5b0671\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is with some sense of anxiety that I stand to take a call on this bill, which I had not heard of until about 11.30 p.m. last night, when I happened to tune into the radio and heard a contribution from the Green member Keith Locke. It sounded quite reasonable and quite considered, and was certainly backed up with quite a bit of information, but then I started listening to what he was actually saying. I was reminded of the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center that took place in America, and I asked myself what Keith Locke\u2019s position at that time was. I was very careful to listen to some of the detail in some of the contributions that came afterwards, and I was reminded very clearly that at that point in time he gave no unequivocal condemnation of that event. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say to the member who is interjecting, with whom I have travelled overseas to places where this kind of tyranny takes place, that he cannot have it both ways. There may be some concerns about the way the United Nations establishes its list, and there may be some concerns about how countries like the United States impose their view, as it were, but at the end of the day he has to decide which camp he is in. He cannot have it both ways. At the moment we are here in the Chamber debating legislation that will shore up the list of organisations around the world that New Zealand recognises as having been terrorist in the past, or may potentially be terrorist. Maybe we will get one or two of them wrong. Maybe a mistake will be made. Maybe the Minister or the Government will make a mistake\u2014it is quite likely with this Government. But, at the end of the day, we have to decide where we stand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIf one thing is absolutely clear to me in this debate, it is that the Green Party is not actually green, at all. That member, in particular, is not green, at all. The Greens are very, very red. They are hard red. They are not green on the outside and red on the inside. On these issues they are as red, as anti-American, and as anti-development as can be. That is exactly the kind of stuff that caused the problems that led to the major conflicts we have seen around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1b439f043c4b25bdebc071a388f918\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: What about the American Green Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299dd956fa20f45d7baee6968bfcbed2b\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member who is interjecting\u2014and I am sure he has hoards of information that he will give to the Committee during this debate about the rationale around why the current Government in New Zealand is committing some kind of heinous crime against some poor, unheard-of organisation in some dark corner of the world\u2014that we have to make a call on some of these things. Occasionally, we will not get it right. I suspect that, with the member\u2019s proposition, we would end up in a situation whereby we would get it wrong far more often than under what is currently proposed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask the Associate Minister of Justice, when he takes a call to answer some of the questions from my colleague the Hon Dr Lockwood Smith, who has studied this legislation and knows the detail of it, to spell out whether it were possible in the future, going forward, under\u2014God forbid\u2014a future Labour Government, that he would end up doing a deal with those people. I think the public of New Zealand deserve an answer to that. As we move into the next election we are looking at who is on the political landscape. I say to anybody who might be listening that one thing that is absolutely clear in this Parliament is that the Green Party is not green. It is hard red. It is as far red as it can get. I suggest that those listening should take a lot of notice of what Mr Locke was saying and go and study the detail. I do not like the sound of it, at all\u2014not one iota.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI also say to the Minister that if the 420 organisations that he has identified are registered on the list, and if the United Nations is more or less in agreeance with it, why is Part 2 revisiting the process by which that list is established? That is something I clearly have no understanding of, at all. There could be a simple explanation for it. Why are we revisiting that at this point in time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00220f54b55c29ce45029b512cbec4e30d52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f54b55c29ce45029b512cbec4e30d52\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fc67fae5f64b4936ba12cae23c069059\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 12; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 39\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 4; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000050\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 6 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000051\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) the words \u201C2 years\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C1 year\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b8f036ddf684dada3fd2cee14160739\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022de50fcc310a247d9b0cf4cc779493b6a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbc0cccba9ab4a0b86648a8dabaa39be\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022d44b722b7b98498f949c43dda17e31c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d44b722b7b98498f949c43dda17e31c7\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, clauses 1 and 2 relate simply to the title of the bill and to the commencement date, which would be immediately after the legislation receives the royal assent. That is important because of the designations we have just been discussing, which expire in October this year. It is really important that this legislation comes into force prior to that, because otherwise we will have no list of designated terrorist organisations in New Zealand, and we certainly would not be consistent with our obligations to the United Nations under Resolution 1373 were that to be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to give us more guidance on the issue of the designation of terrorist organisations that I was asking him about a moment ago. It is quite important, because why do we have this provision in the legislation if we do not take it seriously and do not make sure that our designations are up to date and consistent with the thinking of like-minded countries around the world? That does not mean to say we all have to designate the same organisations, because, obviously, as a sovereign nation, we have our own view on those matters, and that is absolutely right and proper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut I pointed out to the Minister, and I think it was news to him, that, in fact, 420 organisations are now on our list of designations, the number having originally been 318. When the principal Act was passed we had 318 designations, and that was the United Nations list. The United Nations updated that to 420, and New Zealand did likewise. I understand\u2014and I certainly stand to be corrected by the Minister if I am wrong on this\u2014that we increased our number of designations by almost 100, to have 420 organisations on our list. Members may or may not realise that the Prime Minister has the power under the principal Act to add designations to the list. It is important that that power is taken seriously. It is important that we monitor the emergence of new organisations around the world and update our list. There is a matter that the Minister did not give us guidance on. I pointed out that I understood\u2014the last I heard\u2014the United Nations had 433 organisations on its list. So my first question to the Minister was whether we have updated our list to cover the full 433 organisations on the United Nations list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe next thing is that under the principal Act, countries like New Zealand are at liberty to add further organisations to the list. We do not simply have to comply with the UN list of designated terrorist organisations. We can say that we in this part of the world are very concerned about such and such an organisation, and if we have good cause it can be added to the list. There is a process that can be gone through: there can be an interim designation, and then a final designation. In fact, some countries around the world do that. My understanding is that the European Union has more organisations designated on its list than the United Nations has. The European Union is a group of countries with sophisticated institutions. Therefore, if the European Union has designated organisations that we in New Zealand have not, it invites questions about whether we have looked at the additional organisations that the European Union has designated, and, if so, why we have not incorporated them into the list that we are now extending the duration of in Part 2 of the bill. Have we looked at the additional organisations listed by the European Union? Have we looked at the additional organisations listed by the United Nations? When do we plan to update our list? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI also asked before whether, if we were to update our list, those designations would go beyond the 2 years of the extension provided for in this bill, or whether they would go for the full 3 years stated in the principal Act. I guess this amendment will supersede the principal Act, and I imagine that any new designations that are added would terminate after the 2 years\u2019 extension that this bill is applying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere are some issues here that would be of interest to people in New Zealand who are genuinely concerned about our security. There is a question as to whether our list of designated organisations is up to date. I think we should be advised of the answer to that. There are issues about whether we should stick to the UN list or whether we should go beyond that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceaa2112e94f42bba6308a167ba80627\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceaa2112e94f42bba6308a167ba80627\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to speak very briefly in place of my colleague Dail Jones, who is unable to be here today, to affirm New Zealand First\u2019s support, again, for this bill in its present form, and to note how important it is to this party to make such provisions as the bill makes overall. We have shown particular interest over several years in people who come and go from this country, as the House knows, and this matter of international and national security is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EI have been listening with some interest to the matters discussed in this debate. I have heard the word \u201Cred\u201D being used in this House. That takes me back almost 40 years to Professor Robert Chapman, in political studies\u2014and the term was becoming outmoded then. I have found it rather strange to hear last night and this morning the term \u201Cred\u201D, which pertains to a previous world. It is particularly strange, when the Prime Minister has just come back from China and when our primary produce sector is dependent on wool and other exports to Russia, the former USSR, to hear in this House a viewpoint almost frozen in time on what \u201Cred\u201D means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ECertainly, this party is in 2005. We are looking at the dangers that exist and that were demonstrated so dramatically by the events of 2001. New Zealand First is looking forward to the passing of a bill that in its amended form ought to give us greater security protection at the border in years to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00223765c3252d344a7a92249d94d89801ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223765c3252d344a7a92249d94d89801ad\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I think the last comments by the previous speaker are valid. There has been too much name-calling in this Committee in the discussion on this bill. It does not help when people say, as members have said about the Greens and about me in particular, that we support terrorists. None of us in this Committee support terrorists. Whenever any terrorist outrage has occurred, the Green Party has been at the forefront of condemning it, from September 11 onwards, as every member knows. The question is how best to fight terrorism and how not to breach human rights in the process. The question is how a country is to move from a situation where there has been a civil war, in which terrorist activities have been conducted on both sides, such as in the Sri Lankan civil war\u2014in which there has been a ceasefire since late 2001, which is very good\u2014to a real, peaceful, long-term settlement. The United States designation of the Tamil Tigers as a terrorist organisation has hindered that process. A donors\u2019 meeting held in New York, attended by representatives from countries all around the world, to give donations for reconstruction during the ceasefire to both the Tamil Tiger side and the Sri Lankan Government side, was held up because, under the designation, the United States would not let a Tamil Tiger representative attend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat is the practical consequence of that sort of provision, and that is why it is wrong to move from the situation under the existing Act, where one is prohibited from funding terrorist acts, to a situation where one is prohibited from giving money that one knows will benefit a terrorist entity that carries out, or has carried out, terrorist acts. That applies quite directly to groups like the Tamil Tigers, given the background of the United States designation and the way it is half-treated as correct in New Zealand by some Government agencies, because of the way the amending clause in the bill is expressed. The report back from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the bill states: \u201CHowever we are now satisfied that neither the intent nor the wording of the provision catches the funding of legitimate human rights, humanitarian or democratic groups acting solely in this way.\u201D The word \u201Csolely\u201D was put in specifically to cover groups like the Tamil Tigers, which in the past has conducted some terrorist activities, or the African National Congress, which did conduct terrorist activities, or people like Xanana Gusmao, whom we now hold in high respect, but whose organisation did carry out terrorist activities that affected civilians. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ERightly or wrongly, when we are dealing with movements that reflect a nationality, like the Tamil Tigers\u2014and I am critical of the lack of democracy promoted by the Tamil Tigers\u2014how can we move forward, as Norway and many other countries are trying to move forward, the situation in Sri Lanka, if we try to stop and criminalise anyone who is part of that process? That includes aid organisations like Oxfam and Unicef, which I saw in the Tamil areas of Sri Lanka when I visited, helping to build different social structures\u2014maybe including the police force and the court system of the de facto Government. Overseas agencies that we widely respect were helping to move the process forward towards the establishment of a democratic Sri Lanka, where everyone can live together. This bill is specifically geared to stop that sort of thing from happening. That is the reality. It will not just stop people from funnelling funds through front organisations for al-Qaeda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOf course, when we are talking about al-Qaeda the issue is quite easy, because nobody here gives the slightest bit of support to al-Qaeda. Everyone wants that organisation to be destroyed. Everyone wants the maximum police action taken against that organisation and against any real front organisation for it\u2014we all agree on that. But if we go the other way and forgo human rights in prosecuting campaigns against terrorism, we actually work in the terrorists\u2019 favour. As Lord Hoffman said in the House of Lords: \u201CThe real threat to the life of the nation, in the sense of a people living in accordance with its traditional laws and political values, comes not from terrorism but from laws such as these.\u201D\u2014laws that breach human rights\u2014\u201CThat is the true measure of what terrorism may achieve. It is for Parliament to decide whether to give the terrorists such a victory.\u201D Do we want to give the terrorists such a victory today, by bringing in laws that will inhibit us in helping places like Sri Lanka or parts of Indonesia to move towards social justice and a peaceful resolution of conflict?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002251809511ac104deeb7fd00a7a5e4318a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251809511ac104deeb7fd00a7a5e4318a\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call to answer some of the questions raised. Firstly, David Carter asked how organisations get on the list. They are designated to be put on the list by the Prime Minister, as stated in clause 22 of the principal Act. Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith was correct in identifying that 318 organisations were on the schedule at the beginning. That list has been updated, and the number for New Zealand currently stands at 420. As he correctly identified, extra organisations have been designated by the UN. Those are under active consideration by New Zealand. We do not simply accept them for what they are; we have to make our own assessment of them, and that process is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOnce on the list, organisations stay there for 3 years. What happens after that? Lockwood Smith made mention of the review of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to look at all those issues, and to come up with some suggestions about how we might improve the process. So it is the intention of the Government, in the light of that review, the committee\u2019s experience, and our experience, to come back with legislation that will be more enduring than what we had. That legislation was an instant reaction to a situation that had occurred. The world had to take some action, and we did so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWe want now to make sure we are compliant with UN resolutions\u2014which we are\u2014and that we have legislation consistent with the New Zealand framework, and with our attitudes and lifestyle, whilst at the same time ensure we are compliant with UN resolutions. All those things are under consideration, and I am sure that the New Zealand Parliament will pass legislation on this matter again, and that it will be very sensible legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00224d6ab1d133e74446a336018471661739\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d6ab1d133e74446a336018471661739\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in the debate on the first clause of the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2), and to say that members have to realise\u2014and I think most members do\u2014that the world faces a difficult situation in deciding how to combat terrorism and what action should be taken. What the world has decided\u2014and I use the word \u201Cworld\u201D\u2014is that one measure is to designate terrorist organisations. The United Nations, an organisation of which I am often very critical, has designated a number of organisations as being terrorist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWe then had the matter raised by the Green MP that it is most important, in fighting terrorism, that we do not give up our human rights. That is an argument towards which the ACT party in particular is extremely sympathetic. But then I look at the bill to see whether there is any substance to that argument, and I find it extraordinary that Mr Locke cannot actually produce that substance. Instead, he told us about what the United States has done in Guantanamo Bay, and what Britain has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWe all know that British laws are much, much tougher than this legislation. Britain has had problems with the IRA for the last 30 years. They have people letting off bombs in the Tower of London. There is a power in British law whereby people can actually be held without charge. [Interruption] Now the member is interjecting on me. I just point out to him that he is wrong in using those examples to then tell the public that that is what this Parliament is doing in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the bill, we find that there is a provision in clause 4 that deals with people who knowingly\u2014\u201Cwilfully\u201D\u2014give money to a terrorist organisation that they know is carrying out acts of terrorism. According to Mr Locke, that is a violation of human rights. What human right? There is no human right of being able to give money to other people to kill people. In fact, there are no human rights unless we have a system of order. So Mr Locke is completely wrong on the first point he raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHis next point was about the listing of terrorist organisations, which raises an interesting discussion as to whether that is a matter for the administration or for the courts. I say to Mr Locke that he ought to listen. Every lawyer in Parliament has said that that is not a matter for the courts. That is not what courts are set up to do. They are not equipped to do it; they do not have the staff and the like; and it is actually a matter for the administration. Those are the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen we heard the Minister say that New Zealand does not automatically take all the United Nations\u2019 designations of terrorist organisations, and that we still look at the data before adding them to the list. But there is an idea that we should go along with listening to the Human Rights Organisation New Zealand\u2014paid for by the New Zealand taxpayer\u2014defend 413 terrorist organisations, as no doubt it would. We have already seen the debacle that occurred with regard to Mr Zaoui. The designations are not a matter for the courts. I therefore ask Mr Locke, given that he cannot put up the arguments on this bill, why he is putting up that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMr Locke asks why people are questioning his motives, and the reason is that we have studied him. We have seen him for the last 40 years, and the only consistent position that he has had for 40 years is that he is anti-American. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c751ab1fc04ab19682eba682c3b0fc\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I support the American peace movement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022597bc06aae2e4695a906bf7dc7e78f98\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he supports the American peace movement. America has 300 million people, and I am sure he can find within America some people who have similar views to his own. That does not mean that he supports the United States and its institutions. He says he supports the American people, but the American people actually voted for the present President. But no doubt Mr Locke would say, according to his warped view of the world, that that vote was rigged, as well. If we look at his record in Hansard, we will see\u2014even in this debate\u2014that he has been unable to put together his argument without dropping into his anti-American rhetoric, and that is why members say that he is not a Green but a red.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u002250b826748b8948e4afda3d7103faf6ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250b826748b8948e4afda3d7103faf6ed\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in the debate on the title clause. I too have some serious concerns about some of the comments that have been made by the Green MP, because, in listening to some of those comments, it seems to me that the member is saying that some terrorist activity is OK. The Greens are saying that if they believe in a group\u2019s cause, then it is OK if some terrorist activities have been undertaken, and that that can be forgiven. So the Tamil Tigers can be forgiven, if, in the past\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a25baf23324eb89e5e58c6dc7370e1\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: When did I say that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214a8c6c3341947e1ac819e3c9e37df6e\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Just in his last speech, the member said that if an organisation has taken part in some terrorist activity in the past, but has gone on to good freedom fighter - style work, then that is OK, and that all that terrorist activity can be forgiven. I say to Mr Locke that this is my summary of his speech. This is my interpretation of his comments. I find some of those comments very, very frightening. It seems to me that if the Greens believe in a cause, then terrorist activity undertaken by that cause is OK. If the Greens believe that one has gone on to see the light\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dfe479398bc47f1b3d3ca66ce63fc08\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to make a personal explanation on the accusations that I have in this Parliament supported terrorist acts. It is important to explain\u2014and it may be that the member has listened to but misinterpreted what I said\u2014that the Green Party and I have condemned every terrorist act committed. We never justify killing and murdering civilians, kidnapping, hijacking, or blowing up buildings like on September 11. We never do that, whatsoever. The distinction that we have tried to make, and that I have tried to make in Parliament today, is that even though organisations, like Nelson Mandela\u2019s African National Congress, or the Tamil Tigers, have committed terrorist acts in the past\u2014acts that we condemn and will continue to condemn\u2014that does not necessarily mean we want to smash or ban the African National Congress or those who support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222181036d25d54f689d260e9d445e5264\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to remind that member that it is a personal statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00031115a9e427fa35b68abec1ce065\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: I am none the wiser as a result of that contribution. It still seems to me that if a group has been involved in some terrorist activity in the past, and that if that group goes on to rejuvenate itself and see the error of its ways, then that terrorist activity is somehow overlooked and the organisation is then accepted by the Greens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe cannot get into a situation whereby we look at the legitimacy of each and every cause, because we will all debate that and have different views\u2014well, the majority of the House will have the same view. But the Greens, I am sure, can go through those 420 groups on the list and start to debate whether the causes are valid or should be supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E I do not think we have the luxury of doing that over a period of time, so I find some of the comments that have been made by the Greens frightening, and I think that New Zealanders who are listening should be concerned by some of their comments because, potentially, that party could form part of a new Government. When we hear that kind of thinking, it should be very frightening to people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI am still not 100 percent comfortable with parts of this bill, because I am unsure about whether it will achieve what it intends to achieve. It is very clear that if people send money to a group that they know is involved in terrorist activities, that is wrong. If they send money to a group that even potentially might be involved in terrorist activity, that is also wrong. However, this bill says that groups have to be already carrying out or participating in terrorist activities, and we know from history that some groups are set up specifically to do things in the future, so then those groups will not be captured by this legislation, because they are not already carrying out or participating in terrorist activity. They intend to do so in the future, which is why they are raising money, but technically under this bill we will capture only the groups that have already carried out one or more terrorist acts. So I am concerned that that part of the bill will not apply to groups that have been set up specifically to undertake terrorist activity in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EA whole range of activities have been raised by this bill. Our side supports it, and we think that it is important we do more to stamp out terrorism and to ensure that over a period of time we have a good working system that allows terrorist groups to be identified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI have one other concern, on which the Minister might perhaps like to take a call to explain. I am unsure why the expiry of the designation is after 3 years and why it is automatic in this legislation, as opposed to being part of a conscious, managed process where names are taken off the list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec9552bdf89746e6aca36f697e83d99c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec9552bdf89746e6aca36f697e83d99c\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e9d5439eea941cd876594c946207e9f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 4; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002296e3425f32ae41eca7700a5fbb89e9e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296e3425f32ae41eca7700a5fbb89e9e7\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Ayes are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022befecca09ac245c295b0c3b09e25d303\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Ayes are 60; the Noes are 49.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274cc49aff1674c118be02be139311b1b\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224dd5042fe1b4a72a1a1d76c9603a48c\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question will be put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292813e68fdf24b688ef99b149205c360\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: With a majority of 60\u2014out of 120?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022731bd28446b24644baf1cc8822370d2b\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc797ec875fb4a3a8879ff83437aa1a1\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a fair question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022848c78b366874324b4f260b740191dd8\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a fair question. It is not a point of order; the member knows that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab362eb7dc53490e999bda91e87285b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to, and clause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000098\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000099\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002251f9dc69ebe54d11b34668e94eb2e5da\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002259db1bd77c2240b1957b34153cdbe2a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259db1bd77c2240b1957b34153cdbe2a4\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. This bill reflects New Zealand\u2019s continuing commitment to respond effectively to those threats posed by terrorists. The Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 was passed largely in response to the events of September 11\u2014events that confirmed in the most tragic way that terrorism represents a serious threat to international peace and security. Just days after that Act was passed an attack took place in Bali, and there was a major terrorist attack in Madrid last year. The threat posed by terrorism has not diminished. It continues to evolve and adapt, and New Zealand, along with the rest of the international community, must also evolve and adapt our strategies to respond, to counter that threat. This amendment bill is a reflection of that ongoing process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe bill is necessary to update the original 2002 Act in two important respects: firstly, to ensure that the designation of terrorist entities as such under the original Act does not expire, as that would place New Zealand in violation of the United Nations Security Council\u2019s resolutions; and, secondly, to bring our law into more complete compliance with Security Council and Financial Action Task Force requirements to criminalise those who would provide financial support to terrorist organisations. Although financing a terrorist act is already illegal, not to pass this bill would mean that we would have no legal sanction against those who would support organisations related to al-Qaeda and the Taliban. This new offence will not hamper the desire of New Zealanders to contribute funds to genuine human rights or humanitarian groups. The offence targets only those who knowingly collect and provide funds to benefit terrorists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe necessity for such terrorist financing offences is part of the global strategy to deny terrorists access to financial support, and to ensure they do not secure access to banking services in order to move funds around the globe in support of their criminal activities. To ensure there are no weak links in the international system, our efforts in this regard are led by counter-terrorist financing standards set by the OECD-based Financial Action Task Force. In addition to the creation of the offence contained in this bill, other Government initiatives already announced include tightening the requirements relating to international and domestic wire transfer of funds, and the cross-border transfer of cash by couriers. Both of these mechanisms have potential to be used by terrorists to move money around the globe. Although there is no evidence that New Zealand is a haven for such activity, it is important that effective deterrent and preventive measures are taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EFurther anti-terrorist and anti - money-laundering measures are also under consideration. New Zealand\u2019s largely deregulated financial system has resulted in potential loopholes in the system that require closing in order to meet the strict international requirements. Although greater regulation does impose administrative costs, not taking action to meet international standards would not only risk exposure to money-laundering and terrorism but also damage New Zealand\u2019s financial and international reputation. These are a matter of balance. Also in that respect, none of the amendments in this bill adversely affects the balance achieved in the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 between the civil liberties of New Zealanders and the need to deter terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EDespite this, there are other provisions of the current Act that would benefit from re-evaluation and possible amendment in the light of experience since its passage. The designation procedures are one clear area for further consideration. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee is currently engaged in an extensive review of the Act, and must report back to the House no later than 1 December 2005. The review of that Act was a requirement inserted by the committee when deliberating on the Act in 2002, after receiving extensive submissions on the measures contained in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe nature of terrorism and the methods used by terrorists are ever-changing, and a review is therefore both timely and welcome. I look forward to considering the committee\u2019s report in due course. This bill is important to ensure that the Terrorism Suppression Act continues to remain effective in responding to the threat posed by terrorists. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00220638707360ea43ab93a2fc53c450fd50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220638707360ea43ab93a2fc53c450fd50\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I believe that in debating this bill the Committee of the whole House actually had a very good debate, but I will come back to that in a moment. It is important that people understand exactly what this bill, which we are reading for a third time, will do. The bill will amend the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, which implemented United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373\u2014the resolution requiring all members of the United Nations to take measures to combat global terrorism, and to take measures within their own jurisdictions to combat terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the team of officials who worked with the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on this legislation. It was a small but very good team. I think there were some quite complex issues, and some serious considerations about the balance between security and individual human rights that had to weighed up by the committee. The officials gave us very good quality advice. I do not often say that, because I have heard a lot of official advice over the years, but I thought the team members advising the committee were very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI mentioned a moment ago that I thought the debate in the Committee of the whole House was very good, and I will explain why I believe that. I think it is important with legislation such as this, which involves New Zealand\u2019s security, that there is overwhelming support for it in this Parliament. The security of our country is one of the most important things this Parliament addresses when we are handling legislation, and one would like to think that the kind of legislation we pass enjoys the support of most parties when we are dealing with the issue of security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt was interesting that when the debate started on Part 1, New Zealand First was opposed to it and was in fact proposing to move an amendment to delete clause 4. During the debate\u2014which I thought was a very good debate\u2014New Zealand First changed its view and withdrew that amendment, and ended up supporting clause 4. I do not criticise New Zealand First in any way for changing its view. I think that the Committee of the whole House is actually working well when that sort of thing happens. There was good debate put forward, and good arguments as to why clause 4 was needed, and I think New Zealand First listened to those arguments. Dail Jones, the member from New Zealand First who was handling the matter on that party\u2019s behalf, listened to the arguments, modified the view of his party, and ended up supporting Part 1. That was very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think what really persuaded New Zealand First was the very strong argument that there was a gap in our law through the principal Act. Although section 8(1) of the principal Act makes it illegal for a person in this country knowingly to finance a terrorist act, that section does not make it illegal for a person to give money to an organisation that he or she knows is involved in terrorism, even though the money given may not be directly given to fund a specific terrorist act. Without new section 8(2A), inserted by clause 4, it would still be legal to give money to a terrorist organisation as long as the organisation was not directly funding a terrorist act. I think New Zealand First members were persuaded by that argument, despite their concerns about the full reach of new section 8(2A), and I think that that very good debate led to the outcome of New Zealand First joining the consensus of Parliament, where all other parties except one supported that important amendment to ensure that our security legislation was as watertight as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe one party that remained outside that consensus was the Green Party. I want to address my comments over the next few moments to Mr Locke, who led the Green Party arguments. I do not want to make my comments personal but I want to address the logic of what he put to this House. Mr Locke even took the trouble of seeking the leave of the House to make a personal explanation about his and his party\u2019s opposition to terrorism. I accept what he put to Parliament\u2014as we must\u2014that he, Keith Locke, personally opposes terrorism; he does not support terrorism. I accept that, and in making the personal explanation to the House he argued of course that everyone abhorred al-Qaeda, and everything al-Qaeda did and stood for, and that of course it should be illegal to support al-Qaeda. The member is nodding his head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut I say to Mr Locke that the problem is that our current legislation does not make it illegal to give money to al-Qaeda. Currently, without that amendment, people would have to know they were giving money to a specific terrorist act of al-Qaeda. That is why the amendment is required. It seems to have escaped the Green Party that the reason for making that amendment in Part 1\u2014by which clause 4 inserts new section 8(2A)\u2014is to make it illegal to finance an organisation involved in terrorist acts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EClearly, if a person finances al-Qaeda once that new section 8(2A) goes through, that will be a criminal activity here in New Zealand, but without that amendment it is not clear that it would be a criminal activity. Existing section 8(1) requires that, for it to be a criminal act to finance something, a person has to give \u201Cfunds intending that they be used, or knowing that they are to be used \u2026 in order to carry out 1 or more acts of a kind that, if they were carried out, would be 1 or more terrorist acts.\u201D The section links the financing very tightly to the carrying out of one or more terrorist acts, and that is the problem with the existing law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI accept the arguments of people like the Hon Richard Prebble and my colleagues in National, who have said that the behaviour of Mr Locke and the Green Party in this Parliament is anything but the behaviour of people who genuinely care about New Zealand\u2019s wider environment, including our security environment. In fact, their behaviour is bizarre, and many have branded it red because it is so extreme-left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E Be that as it may, I call on Keith Locke to reconsider, because it would be great if this Parliament could actually reach a consensus on this important anti-terrorism legislation that is important for our security and international obligations. I call on Mr Locke to think about the issue again, because under existing law it is not clear that giving money to al-Qaeda is criminal. It should be, because, as Mr Locke himself has pointed out, al-Qaeda is an objectionable organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIn my last moments, let me cover just one thing in respect of the Act as it will be amended after we complete this third reading\u2014that is, there are some real inconsistencies in it. Both existing section 8(1), which relates to the financing of terrorist acts, and section 10(1), which is about the prohibition on making property and services available to terrorist or associated entities, have, for the avoidance of doubt, what I call, loosely, out clauses. But new section 8(2A), concerning the financing of terrorist organisations, will not have that same out clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EClearly, in our law it is not good\u2014to put it mildly\u2014to have a part of the Act where there is an out clause for financing terrorist acts and for making property and services available to terrorist organisations, but no out clause for just funding a terrorist organisation. All offences are equally unacceptable and should be equally criminal, and I hope that the select committee, as it completes its review of the principal Act, the Terrorism Suppression Act of 2002, will actually remove those avoidance of doubt clauses, because I suspect that it would be extraordinarily difficult to achieve a successful prosecution while such sections remained in the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENational totally supports this amendment bill. We believe there has been a good quality debate, and I think it would be great if the House could reach full consensus on the legislation. If Mr Locke could finally accept that the funding of al-Qaeda should be criminal in this country, that would be great, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u0022851f2c501e22454f8130a55234d09963\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022851f2c501e22454f8130a55234d09963\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, talofa lava, and warm Pacific greetings. I stand proudly not only as a member of this Labour-led Government but also as deputy chairperson of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to support the third reading of the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EWhile I am on my feet I would like to express my appreciation to the Hon Phil Goff, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and also, more important, to his chief legal adviser and to officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Ministry of Justice, and to the 13 submitters who took the time to participate with their submissions. I also want to thank the Hon Peter Dunne, the chairperson of our Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and all my parliamentary colleagues, including Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith and the Green member Keith Locke. Our select committee worked hard to address the complexity of these issues. I also thank others who have participated in the final stages of this debate and who support this very important legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI also feel very positive that the statutory review of the Terrorism Suppression Act conducted by our select committee will provide a suitable forum for all stakeholders to engage in addressing some of the complexities and issues like those that Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith has raised. That report is due back at the end of the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThis bill needs to be seen in context, not in isolation. It is an element of a range of policies and programmes that this Labour Government has strengthened and supported by including increased funding in this year\u2019s Budget for overseas development aid, fairer and freer trade, and defence and security\u2014and we now have this legislation. All these initiatives work to address root causes of terrorism and to stop terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThe human rights theme was also evident throughout the deliberations of the select committee. I want to quote the link between human rights and the bill, because it is an important one. The world\u2019s human rights institutions\u2019 joint statement declared in Seoul in 2004 stated: \u201CTerrorism has a devastating impact on the full range of human rights, most directly the right to life and personal security.\u201D Our own Chief Human Rights Commissioner affirms that the role of the State is to protect its citizens and all of those within its borders from such violence. This is why we need the legal framework in place to further support terrorism suppression, and why the passing of this terrorism amendment bill is another way to stamp out terrorism so as to protect our citizens and the citizens of the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EIn summary, at the time the original bill was first introduced there was uncertainty as to the nature and extent of the terrorism phenomenon. An assumption that some designations might be short-lived has since proved to be false, and New Zealand now has over 420 designated terrorist organisations, all on the United Nations security list, and is considering adding more groups to that list. The bill also proposes extending two sections of the Act that prohibit the financing of terrorism acts and of designated terrorist entities, so that they also cover the intentional financing of non-designated terrorist organisations. Given the fluidity of terrorist movements and the unpredictable emergence of new terrorist groups, this change is the most practical way of ensuring that New Zealand will always remain compliant with international obligations prohibiting the funding of terrorist organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand, although small, has a critical role to play as a leader in the Pacific region and as a participant in the Asian region, and must always be vigilant, act consistent with its principles, and remain pragmatic and compliant with international obligations prohibiting the funding of terrorist organisations and of all of those who fund and support their actions. The Terrorism Suppression Act has strengthened New Zealand\u2019s ability to combat terrorism. Terrorism has become the greatest threat to the world\u2019s peace, prosperity, and security. Our collaborative and concerted local, national, regional, and international effort is needed on all fronts, including addressing the root causes of terrorism. United we stand; divided we fall. The effective targeting of terrorist financing is a measure that can have potentially significant impact on the ability of terrorists to operate. In plain language, we can identify or imagine what life must be like for them without money or an economic base. In passing this bill, New Zealand continues to demonstrate its ongoing commitment to stop terrorism in all its forms in our global world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u00227db9dd3682e54d4591526daa243a8381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227db9dd3682e54d4591526daa243a8381\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of New Zealand First to again add our support for the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2), which amends some sections of the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002. I also rise because my colleague Dail Jones is unable to be here today. Therefore, I begin by going back to the report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and to the matters that were raised in the Chamber last night concerning the change indicated in my colleague\u2019s proposed amendment, because those matters are still valid and important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EIn submissions made on the bill, one of the major issues for those submitters and the committee must have been that in the catch-all legislation that this bill is about to embody, the funding of legitimate humanitarian or human rights activities should not be impaired. Last night Mr Jones took some time to very ably indicate his, and our caucus\u2019s, view on those matters. We were reassured by the Minister, who said in his second reading speech, which he later reaffirmed for the Committee, that the intent and the wording was not to catch such funding, and that humanitarian or democratic rights groups acting solely in humanitarian ways were not intended to be subject to that clause. So last night New Zealand First withdrew its suggested amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWhen the leader of United Future and chairperson of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, the Hon Peter Dunne, spoke on these matters in regard to the actual matter that Dail Jones was concerned about, namely clause 4, which inserts proposed section 8(2A), I was somewhat confused by Mr Dunne carefully going through the suggested new section, and saying that, test by test, the threshold was so high. I also had in mind that earlier the Hon Richard Prebble had talked about this show clause. When one really looks at the actual law in practice, I think that Peter Dunne had it right. This threshold may be so high and may seem to be so inclusive but, in fact, the series of tests that must be met will result in no activity at all in actual practice in regard to this clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EContrary to what Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith has said, section 8(2A) in clause 4, and section 8(1) of the principal Act are in reality not so far apart. Notwithstanding the language the officials have carefully put together by trying to be all things, and setting so many tests, in legal practice this may not work as the committee intended. I am not signalling that my colleague was wrong in regard to this clause. I am saying to members that this particular section may yet prove to need further amendment if it is to achieve the intention of the committee. That may yet prove to be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EOn behalf of New Zealand First, I say that we broadly support the intentions of this bill, because we all know that since September 11 of 2001 there has been a change, not just to the Americans, but also to our world. We received an understanding that into our sphere of influence\u2014and we all realise how close the issues of Indonesia have been in recent times\u2014came a sophisticated, selectively targeted type of terrorism that some countries, unfortunately, had known for many years, which knew no favourites, and had no agendas other than exactly as we saw in regard to the events of that day. The territorial boundaries were no longer there in regard to that world and our world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has been very, very concerned over several years about the border, and entry of people to this country, and has seen, particularly in recent months, that the Government has been unable to say with any great assurance that its immigration policy is able to identify each and every immigrant in the defined way that it ought; New Zealand First and the Rt Hon Winston Peters have exposed the inability of the Government to say that person A is that person, has that history, and has that record. In the sort of environment that we have today, this bill is very much needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ETherefore we support the bill. We support the need to look further at those designations, and contrary to what the member from the Greens has said, the matters that are before us are matters of law. What may happen to another country is of no concern to me or to New Zealand First. We take the United Nations designations in regard to who should be a group. But the real matter of this bill is what pertains to New Zealand\u2019s legal system and to our law. All the examples that I have heard from the Green Party are of no significance against the fact of what we think is desirable practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EIn saying that, though, as a law and order party, we at all times would wish that this be strictly in accordance with sound legal practice. Political judgments must, in the end, be judgments that can be justified in law. This bill does just that. We support its passing and we look forward to the fact that it is but one step, we hope, to greater security at the border and for New Zealanders. We also look forward to the final report, later in the year, that should give a completeness and a comprehensiveness that this short amendment bill does not give. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EFinally, on behalf of New Zealand First I say that we are pleased to support this bill further, earnestly hoping that the intended objectives will be achieved, although I must say, personally, and on behalf of Dail Jones, a wee bit of residual doubt remains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfac4b4cf83d46bab1a3be8dc832e1ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfac4b4cf83d46bab1a3be8dc832e1ad\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party would like to say at the outset that of course all the parties in the House are united to fight terrorism in the most effective way, and we should have appropriate laws for that. We are utterly against all forms of terrorism, be it non-State terrorism or State terrorism. Those listening to this debate might think \u201COh, the Greens are on their own; they are some sort of minority off to one side.\u201D But if one had been at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee and heard the submissions, one would have found that, overwhelmingly, the organisations that submitted\u2014and they were respected organisations: various civil liberties groups such as the New Zealand Council for Civil Liberties, the Canterbury Council of Civil Liberties, the Human Rights Foundation, the Peace Foundation, the Association of University Staff, etc.\u2014raised the same criticisms that the Green Party has been raising in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhat we want to do is to fight terrorism most effectively. I did indicate before that if we do not fight terrorism in the most effective way, and protect human rights at the same time, we are in deep trouble. I will just quote Lord Hoffman, because I think it is relevant, and I have quoted him before. He said in the House of Lords: \u201CThe real threat to the life of the nation, in the sense of a people living in accordance with its traditional laws and political values, comes not from terrorism but from laws such as these [which breach human rights]. That is the true measure of what terrorism may achieve. It is for Parliament to decide whether to give the terrorists such a victory.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAnother quote is from the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, who made the key point: \u201CA commitment to uphold respect for human rights and rule of law will be one of the keys to success in countering terrorism, not an impediment blocking our way.\u201D Unfortunately, members in this House have seen the Greens\u2019 objection to new legislation that undermines human rights as somehow an impediment to fighting terrorists. In fact, it is just the opposite, if members look at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EKofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General, has a similar concern. He puts it round the other way, and I will quote from him. \u201CEvery time we advance the protection of human rights we deal a blow to the evil designs of terrorists and we remove a sense of injustice, which can cause the oppressed to channel their frustration into illegitimate violence. If we compromise on human rights in seeking to fight terrorism, we hand terrorists a victory that they cannot achieve on their own. If we build on these fundamentals I believe we can develop a new vision of global security\u2014a vision that respects human rights while confronting the threats of our age, including the threat of terrorism.\u201D I think that is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMr Prebble mentioned the IRA, I think, in his speech. When one looks at how Governments around the world confronted such problems before September 11, one finds that the IRA was part of a combined movement with Sinn Fein, its political wing. But the British Government never brought in a law such as this to throw people in jail if they gave money to Sinn Fein. The reason it did not do that is it knew that the reality was that Sinn Fein, despite the fact it was associated, through its support of the IRA, with despicable terrorism that everyone opposes totally\u2014putting bombs in pubs, and all of that, which people like myself were, historically, the strongest in criticising\u2014also had the support of the bulk of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland. Its people were being elected to Parliament, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESo the best way to end that terrorism\u2014and the British Government had this approach\u2014was, ultimately, to get into a dialogue with Sinn Fein and convince it that progress could be made in some of its legitimate objectives, rather than in its illegitimate objectives through the use of violence, to better the lot of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland, or to give it a chance to advance its republican agenda, which there was support for, and was a political goal not a military goal, and to allow it to have room in the political structures of the country to do that. That was successful. It has not been totally successful. Sure, there are still remnants of the IRA around, but proceeding in that way basically has brought relative peace to Northern Ireland, rather than trying, as in the past, to criminalise people who gave money to Sinn Fein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe same thing applies in Sri Lanka today where there has been an effective ceasefire since November 2001. A whole lot of effort is going on, involving nations around the world\u2014and the New Zealand Government has played its role in that, to its credit\u2014to try to rebuild Sri Lanka, to promote human rights, and to get both sides in the earlier vicious civil war, where terrorist acts were committed by both sides, through dialogue, through rebuilding, through aid, through what is called, if one listens to Norwegian peace negotiators, confidence-building measures, to bring peace to that country. That process has been undermined by the designation of the Tamil Tigers still, this year, by the United States, as a terrorist organisation. It just does not help. If those designations are combined with the practice of trying to smash that organisation, it does not help the whole rebuilding process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EActually, one of the submitters to the select committee, David Small from Arena, made a good point and he related it to development, and I quote him: \u201CIt is now widely accepted by governmental agencies like New Zealand Aid that long-term development assistance is most effective when local organisations are intimately involved in every aspect of the work, from its conception to its evaluation, and in situations of conflict such as exist in Aceh and Sri Lanka, groups that are representative of local communities are necessarily involved in the rebuilding work. However, such groups may also fit within the criterion of having participated in the carrying out of a terrorist act. This bill would criminalise any group or individual who provided assistance to such a group. I\u2019m, of course, not suggesting that the tsunami donor records of the development agencies would be seized and prosecutions brought. However, in considering amending the law in the way the bill proposes, one must seriously take into account what is made possible and not just what is likely in the current conditions.\u201D\u2014by which I suppose he means with a Labour Government in power today and the general atmosphere towards tsunami relief, we are not expecting any prosecutions, but when we write laws we are writing them for a more difficult situation. In the future we might have a Government that is pretty antagonistic to the aid community, and is running some rather strange foreign policy agendas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the problems, and this came out in the debate, is that the report from the select committee stated that people cannot give to any organisation if it had in the past committed, or had an aspect of committing, terrorist activities, even if\u2014and I refer to groups like the Tamil Tigers\u2014it is involved at the moment in constructive activity that the international community is supporting. The select committee report states that the provision does not catch those who are involved in the funding of legitimate human rights, humanitarian, or democratic rights groups, and that these groups have to be acting \u201Csolely\u201D in this way. The word \u201Csolely\u201D was put in specifically to relate to the Tamil Tigers and groups like that, or Sinn Fein; if there is any aspect at all of terrorism in groups\u2019 activities, then New Zealanders can be put in jail for funding them. That is where the amendment crosses the line and does not become useful in advancing peace and reconstruction. That is the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the Green amendments to this bill were not passed. We tried to get the existing exception\u2014the qualifying provision that exists in the present law in terms of funding groups that are promoting democratic rights and democracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82bc5cf2a864e42b7d5234f9a548b7f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf5a2f3d0b084be889d4e9356c682178\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf5a2f3d0b084be889d4e9356c682178\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak in the third reading debate on the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2). It is just as well to remind the House what the bill is actually about, because it was not clear from Mr Locke\u2019s contribution. The third reading is an amendment to the earlier Terrorism Suppression Act that was passed just after September 11. Fundamentally, this bill does two things. The earlier legislation made it illegal to give money in this country to support terrorism. It was then realised that there was actually a loophole in the earlier bill\u2014that people could claim they were not giving money to support terrorism, that they were just giving it to the entity. So this bill says that that it is illegal in New Zealand\u2014or it will be shortly, when this bill is passed\u2014to give money to a terrorist organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMr Locke then said that means that people who gave money after the tidal wave would be caught up. Again, if members look at that clause it is written so that people have to give the money wilfully, they have to know that the money will go to an organisation that engages in terrorism, and they have to have no reasonable excuse. I think that Mr Locke is now alone in the House in believing that that could mean that a person who gave money to a street collection could be caught up. Mr Jones, on behalf of the New Zealand First Party, did raise some questions about that at the Committee stage. We listened to the assurance given by the Minister, which is written into the Hansard record, and which the court will take notice of in the event of any prosecution. All the lawyers in the House say that this law is so written that the requirement of intent is so high that in fact the only people who will be caught will be those who openly say: \u201CI\u2019m collecting money for a terrorist organisation in order to strengthen their ability to bomb the hell out of whomever they are against.\u201D That is about as strong as it would have to be for that one to get home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen there is a second section where the United Nations has designated a number of organisations as terrorist organisations. That section, which is now in our law, will lapse if this bill is not passed. It was probably contrary to our intentions when we go back to 2002\u2014I have looked back at the Hansard lists, and no one, not even Mr Locke, thought that the United Nations would actually have designated 430, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fe6a1bd5f1e43bda4a5e6705b490301\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: 410.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd25e297c434e9b896ba7bd2f458c9d\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: It has probably gone up a couple more since we started this debate, but there are now 410 such organisations. The idea that we would take each one to the High Court would be a huge waste of taxpayers\u2019 money, amongst other things. We know from the Zaoui case just how long those sorts of cases might take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E So we have a practical question before us. The whole House, including New Zealand First, now says that we should do this, except Mr Locke from the Green Party. It is interesting. I have gone back and looked at Hansard, and Mr Locke is consistent. He gets up, on bill after bill, and says that the Green Party is opposed to terrorism, and he says that the Greens have opposed it every time it has happened. I have no doubt that he has probably put out press statements after various bombings have occurred. The question is, what actions have the Green Party taken in order to protect New Zealand? That is a legitimate question because the No. 1 responsibility of this House of Representatives is the security of the nation and its citizens. It is not our No. 2 or No. 3 responsibility, it is our No. 1 responsibility\u2014but not according to the Green Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EAccording to the Green Party, it is far more important that we give human rights to those 410 terrorist organisations. I ask the member why. Surely the No. 1 responsibility is the security of New Zealanders. Secondly, the proposal he is putting forward, as he has been told by officials and by experienced members of this House\u2014in fact, I think he himself knows\u2014is completely unworkable. If we were to follow the Greens\u2019 prescription it would not be illegal to raise money in this country for terrorist organisations. We know that if it was not illegal there are a number of misguided individuals\u2014fortunately, a very small number\u2014who would do that. New Zealand would become known to be a home for terrorism, and that would be as a result of following the Green Party policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EDoes it matter? Unfortunately, it does. We are an MMP Parliament. Obviously, the polls might change, but it is clearly the objective of Mr Locke\u2019s party to no longer be a critic of the Government but, according to Mr Donald, to be part of the Government. That is why I think the most significant thing that has come out of this debate is a question for New Zealanders as to whether they want the Green Party to be in charge of our security. I make this statement: if the Green Party becomes part of the Government, that is a threat to the security of New Zealand. I do not trust Mr Locke with the information. I do not trust the Green Party. I do not think that the Green members of Parliament should serve on the security committees that look at confidential information that is given to us by our allies. Indeed, I think that if the Green Party starts to have Cabinet Ministers, we will find that will have an effect on our best protection against terrorism. It has been said by successive Prime Ministers, including the present one, that our best protection against terrorism is the fact that we have international agreements that enable people to share intelligence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI listened to Mr Locke today and he made it clear that he does not trust those organisations. In the speech that he made today his principal arguments against the bill were not what New Zealand would do, but what the United States and Britain have done. They are the two nations that supply us with information, and they are aware of this House. They are aware of Mr Locke\u2019s Hansard. No doubt they have a file on him. I have been aware of him since I first ran into him when I was a university student. Mr Locke has never grown up. He has exactly the same views now as those he had at the height of the cold war. He has not moved one inch. The rest of the world has moved on, but Mr Locke has not. The only thing that is different about him is that he used to run under a red banner and was never voted for, but he then found that if he painted it green but did not change any of his views, he could get elected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say that this should be an issue at the next election. I am not standing, but I say to anyone who is thinking of voting for the Green Party that if we look at its actual record on this crucial issue, the Greens never talk about the environment. They raise matters, the logic of which would be that New Zealand would be defenceless against terrorism. Mr Locke has failed in his No. 1 responsibility. His No. 1 responsibility is not to try to get votes from the people who share his paranoid view of the world, it is to vote for what is in the best interests of the security of this nation. This bill is absolutely essential for that, and his failure to vote for it shows that he is not fit to be part of the Government. I do not think that the Green Party deserves even to be in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022e300b11f0fdc4c87ba49909824694f02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e300b11f0fdc4c87ba49909824694f02\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E We have just listened to a very fine speech from the Hon Richard Prebble on a concern that I think is widely felt in this House and, for those who are listening, widely felt outside it. We have a party\u2014the Green Party\u2014that through its representative is opposed to the provisions of the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2). It is opposed to the creation of an offence that has for its purpose compliance with international standards for counter-terrorist financing, and to the creation in specific terms of an offence in connection with funding terrorist groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhether it takes the form of bombings, hijackings, shootings, or assassinations, terrorism is neither random, spontaneous, nor blind. It is a deliberate use of violence against civilians for political or religious ends. It seems to me that it is characterised by four key elements. Those elements are that, first, it is premeditated, planned in advance rather than being an impulsive act of rage; second, it is political, not criminal like the violence that groups such as the Mafia use to get money but designed to change the existing political order; third, it is aimed at civilians, not at military targets or combat-ready troops; and, fourth, it is carried out by sub-national groups, not by the army of a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe word \u201Cterrorism\u201D itself was coined during France\u2019s Reign of Terror in 1793. Originally, the leaders of that systematised attempt to weed out traitors amongst the revolutionary ranks praised terror as the best way to defend liberty but, as the French Revolution soured, the words soon took on grim echoes of State violence and guillotines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is nothing new about terrorism, of course. The oldest terrorists were holy warriors who killed civilians. One can think of the 1st century situation in Palestine where Jewish Zealots would publicly slit the throats of Romans and their collaborators. In 7th century India members of the Thug cult would ritually strangle passers-by as sacrifices to the Hindu deity, Kali. In the 11th century in the Middle East the Shiite sect known as the Assassins would eat hashish before murdering civilian foes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Terrorism Suppression Act of 2002, the principal Act, which is the subject of amendment and present debate, has had something of a chequered history. This is the second time since 2002 that the legislation has been amended. I echo the comments made by others that when National becomes the Government in September we will need to take a hard look at this legislation and deal with some of the deficiencies that have been identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Act\u2019s original purpose was to implement the obligations for New Zealand law in connection with the bombings convention, the financing convention, and the anti-terrorism resolution of the United Nations. Then in 2003 the nuclear material convention and the plastic explosives convention were added to the provisions of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that the legislation has shortcomings, and they include the involvement of the court in the extension of the designation of terrorist entities. It is interesting to see that that responsibility is now to be imposed on the Chief High Court Judge. Most of us involved in the law have seen the role of that particular official as being concerned with the expeditious dispatch of the court\u2019s business. In my view, that official should clearly not be cast in the role of determining whether designations should enure. That is the first aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second aspect I would identify is that I doubt whether the best way of dealing with terrorist groups is by designation in the way the legislation contemplates. Whatever the number is\u2014I think 450 was the suggested number of groups that are currently outlawed\u2014that seems to me to be an unworkable arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is also right to say that religiously motivated terrorists like al-Qaeda are less restrained than other terrorists. Earlier arch-terrorists such as Carlos the Jackal and Abu Nidal never contemplated, much less attempted, the complete destruction of high-rise buildings packed with people. But for those religious groups such as al-Qaeda, the Arabian-backed Hezbollah, the Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo, and the Palestinian group Hamas, mass killings are considered not only acceptable but holy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe rise of terrorism since September 11 has of course produced new strategies and new thinking. In the context of New Zealand defence arrangements, where there was for a time a passing interest in what one might call some form of niche response, we have had to move on from there. We have had to move on in substantial measure, because of the challenges that asymmetric warfare poses. The responses that may have been satisfactory several years ago are now not satisfactory. I think it is a matter of regret that the New Zealand Government has not yet sufficiently caught up with that change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo here it is\u2014the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2), which National supports, is on the brink of being passed. We support that legislation for the reasons I have indicated, but we see a clear need for the legislation to be reviewed, both as to its content and as to the underlying strategy behind it. I join with other members of the House in expressing shock at the comments made by the Green Party in its apparent refusal to accept that terrorism is a real issue that must be confronted head-on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u00223130e3aeba06459fbfd813d3c3cd9bcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223130e3aeba06459fbfd813d3c3cd9bcc\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is necessary to update the principal Act of 2002 in two important respects. Firstly, it ensures that the designations of terrorist entities under that Act do not expire. That would have placed New Zealand in violation of the United Nations Security Council resolution. Secondly, the bill brings our law into more complete compliance with the requirements of the Security Council and the Financial Action Task Force on Money Laundering to criminalise those who provide financial support to terrorist organisations. I support the passage of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00222e5cd5bffe4442a58cf6fc8d4665277a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e5cd5bffe4442a58cf6fc8d4665277a\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is very important legislation, and I am astounded that the Green Party member\u2014Mr Locke\u2014can stand in this House and say, in effect, that terrorists have more rights than the citizens of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c1f61dee124830b7f96c493b9687e0\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what he was saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230be661c8f8844708669dbc62ffafab0\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: He was. The role of Parliament and the role of the Government is, first and foremost, to protect New Zealand, New Zealanders, our properties, our lives, our families, and all that we stand for. That is what democracy is about. That is true democracy, not this woolly thinking that comes from the Green Party. I hope all New Zealanders take on board the fact that we have a party that is prepared to stand in this House and say that this bill on terrorism, which we are debating today, is not important. I find that absolutely astounding. I am dismayed by it and astonished by it\u2014it is an absolute disgrace. All other parties in this House over the course of the debate have been very clear indeed about the importance of our sovereignty and our ability to be secure in our position in terms of counter-terrorism. But we see that one party in the House is actually going to move away from that provision. It will be interesting, when we come to vote on the third reading, to see whether the Green Party votes against it. It might abstain. We will see. It might sit on the fence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe are debating the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2), which National is supporting. We have heard some very good arguments today and yesterday on the importance of this legislation to New Zealanders and our economy. I want to highlight the problem that we face as a country so geographically isolated that we could be a threat and we could be used as a base. That is why it is important that our security services and our military are able to cope with any eventuality\u2014those unseen things that creep up on us. It would be naive to think that because of our location we have a defence against that and that we are protected. That is absolutely not the case, because terrorism is around the world. Anyone who has travelled since 9/11 will have seen the border controls now in countries such as the United States. That is a protection that we need. It is a protection that New Zealanders expect to be in place when people arrive here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOur border control agencies\u2014the Customs Service and Immigration Service\u2014are to be commended for the work they do. Yet we have a party that is saying in the House today\u2014and I hope New Zealanders take note\u2014that this bill is not needed. In doing that, the Green Party is probably promoting the view of human rights, which it always pushes, but what about the rights of New Zealanders? I would have thought that was important. I know my colleagues think our human rights are important, because with rights comes responsibilities. One does not just have rights; one expects that responsibilities go with that. Yet one party in this House decides that that is not important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what is happening on the world scene with regard to terrorism, we see that it is brutal, it is violent, there are no qualms about what it can do, there is no respect for the laws of the land, there is no respect for lives, there is no respect for property, and there is no respect for the international reputation of the country in which it happens. We have seen it throughout the world. Whether it takes the form of bombings, shootings, hijackings, or assassinations, we know that terrorism is neither random, spontaneous, nor blind. It is a deliberate use of violence against civilians for political or religious ends. If we look at wars around the world, we see that they are dominated by a political sense, by political intrigue, and by people who believe they know best and therefore force on people, civilians in particular, their views, which then, of course, backlash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIf we look at the definition of terrorism, we see there are four key elements. It is premeditated. It does not \u201Cjust happen\u201D. It is premeditated. It is planned in advance. It is not an impulsive act of rage that happens at the time. It is premeditated. It is political. It is not a criminal event but a political event\u2014like the violence that groups such as the Mafia use to get money\u2014designed to change the existing political order. Terrorism is based on political ideology, and it is aimed at civilians because they are the most vulnerable. They are the ones who cannot react. They are the ones who are unable to stand up for themselves, protect themselves, or take countermeasures. Terrorism is not aimed at military targets, because there would be an immediate response. It is not aimed at combat troops, either. It is aimed at those who are the most vulnerable\u2014the people who cannot defend themselves; the civilians. The fourth point in the key elements of terrorism is that it is carried out by sub-national groups. It is carried out by small groups of people who are fanatics. That is what they are. They are fanatics for a political cause. They are pushing an ideological point of view that is contrary to the view of the majority. Terrorism is not aimed at the army of a country; it is aimed right at the heart of those who are the most vulnerable, and they, of course, are the civilians and citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo where does the word \u201Cterrorism\u201D come from? What are the origins of this word? It was coined during France\u2019s Reign of Terror between 1793 and 1794. Originally, the leaders of this systemised attempt to weed out traitors among the revolutionary ranks praised terror as the best way to defend liberty. As was found out during the French Revolution, the word soon took on the grim echoes of State violence and guillotines. That is the origin of the word \u201Cterrorism\u201D. Is it a new phenomenon? No, it is not. As my colleague Dr Worth said, it has been around since the Middle Ages. I will not repeat what my learned colleague Dr Richard Worth said, because he crystallised and articulated a very important facet of what terrorism means, and the phenomenon that is associated with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to reiterate is that terrorism is not blind. It is a deliberate attempt by groups of fanatics to further a political cause, and it is aimed at hitting those who are the most vulnerable in society, those who cannot protect themselves. They are the civilians of our nations. Any Government\u2019s primary role is to protect its citizens and its country. That is the role of a Government. This Parliament has the opportunity to put into force laws that will allow our Government and our Government agencies to do what is right. There is nothing more important in a democracy than being assured of our security and our peace of mind during difficult times. We may be geographically isolated, but I can assure members that we are vulnerable. Any party that cannot support this bill is not worthy of representation in this Parliament or any Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00225ce496c84f214784884d16501436baba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ce496c84f214784884d16501436baba\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the third reading of the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2). The need to extend the legislation, which Parliament passed in 2002, reflects the way the world now has to do business. The reality of terrorism is with us in terms of the foreign policy of many countries; even a small country like our own of 4 million people at the bottom of the Pacific has to be very focused on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe amendment to the legislation is needed as a result of the events of September 11, which are still very firmly in the minds of members, as mentioned throughout the whole debate. That terrible event caused tragedy for so many people, and the effects continue today. I note that Families of September 11, an advocacy organisation in New York, is working on issues arising from the fall-out of that event and the terrible suffering of those people. The new executive director, Jennifer Mincin, has written very good articles about the issues that confront victims of terrorism. Those things are very firmly in the minds of all parliamentarians. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcef11daf3f9431480c537d8182b40ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcef11daf3f9431480c537d8182b40ff\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I am very grateful for the chance to say a few words on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c155a2e535543f3bdb7f82b5c5214b7\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: There won\u2019t be many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d6dff2275b64cb6aaa4312c5b6dfae2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: There could be quite a lot. We have plenty of time. I am staying in Wellington this evening, so I am not worried. First of all, I profoundly disagree with the comments made by my Green colleague Mr Locke and his approach on these matters. Fundamentally, I think Mr Locke is quite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c77edc6d492542079e0f7ee800fcffc2\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Your colleague?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0ccd95450454da3a0cc11a4a97b878a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I would refer to Mr David Carter as my parliamentary colleague. One\u2019s \u201Ccolleague\u201D does not necessarily mean ownership in any sense. Indeed, one wants to disown them in some sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI think Mr Locke\u2019s problem, as on a number of matters, is simply that the world has passed him by. He has not caught up with the change in reality since the 1960s. We are no longer in support of freedom-fighting guerrillas in Third World countries, against awful oppression. We face quite different kinds of threats, which are well organised, financially sophisticated, and able to route their activities even through countries such as New Zealand, and that is why we have to be part of the intelligence networks and others that deal with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ELet me say that I am still sufficiently old-fashioned, and liberal also, to defend the right of Mr Locke to express those views and to differ profoundly from what Mr Tisch said. Mr Tisch said essentially that if anybody disagreed with supporting this bill, he or she had no right to be within this Parliament. I just have to say gently to Mr Tisch that one of the ironies of democracy is that we do have to end up defending the right of people to say things, even if they could potentially threaten democracy on occasions if they were to be taken too seriously. I think Mr Locke unwittingly signs up sometimes to views that provide some kind of threat in that respect, but I have no doubt at all of his own commitment to democratic principles within our society. Much more important, I have no doubt at all of our responsibility to uphold his right to express those views within this Parliament, because undoubtedly there are people outside this House who are concerned about some of the measures that we now need to take in order to protect ourselves against movements that are within the international arena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bc0d114ea54e46f3a76603e0ca24f67a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 97\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da4752a9c16a47d2bfc1c7e26a92372c\u0022\u003ECourts and Criminal Matters Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e394a85ba424e678ae9bfb76d1cf874\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000189\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 5 May.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3783baad9dc47a0908aaed3809a067e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3783baad9dc47a0908aaed3809a067e\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts): \u003C/span\u003EIf I have not already moved the motion, I move, That the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill be now read a second time. This bill updates and improves a number of aspects of the law relating to the enforcement of fines and civil debts. It will significantly improve the Ministry of Justice\u2019s capability to enforce unpaid fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Law and Order Committee has recommended a number of very worthwhile improvements to the bill, and I would like to thank the members of the select committee for their contribution. In particular, I would like to thank the very hard-working and excellent chair of the select committee, Martin Gallagher, who I know has put a tremendous amount of good work into this bill and has been somewhat frustrated by its process, and I commend him for his tolerance. Further substantial changes to the law relating to fines enforcement result from a comprehensive review of the infringement and fines systems now being undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis present bill largely relates to technical improvements to existing processes. There is, however, one very important new policy issue implemented by the bill, which is to have enforcement of fines at airports. Currently, most fines defaulters are able to leave New Zealand permanently, or leave and re-enter the country, without this being brought to the attention of the Ministry of Justice collections units. This situation is completely unacceptable and undermines the credibility of the fines sentence. Parts 2, 4, and 6 of the bill therefore create an arrangement allowing the Ministry of Justice to compare its database of serious fines defaulters with the databases of the Customs Service and the Immigration Service of people travelling in or out of the country. This will enable alerts to be triggered when serious fines defaulters enter or leave New Zealand at an international airport. The serious fines defaulters will be intercepted at the airport and given the opportunity to pay their fine, or they will be arrested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ERestriction of airport interception for the most serious defaulters will minimise the potential to inconvenience other travellers. The definition of serious fines default given in clauses 7 and 15 was, however, amended by the select committee to include anyone who owes any amount of reparation, in addition to anyone owing at least $1,000 in unpaid fines. That change does not have a serious impact in terms of the volumes of persons likely to be intercepted, but it means that nobody who is in default in payment of reparation to a victim of his or her offending will be able to leave the country undetected. I think that is a good amendment, and I support it wholeheartedly. The bill also allows for the threshold in relation to fines to be reduced by Order in Council, and the Government will review that threshold in the light of experience in the implementation of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EClauses 7 and 15 were amended by the Law and Order Committee to limit the exemption from liability afforded to the Crown in respect of fines enforcements action taken against the traveller. The committee was concerned that the provisions as originally drafted would suggest that an innocent person who was wrongly detained would not be entitled to recover loss and damages. The redrafted provisions exempt the Crown from liability only in relation to third parties, such as airlines and other passengers, and then only when the actions were taken in good faith and did not result from gross negligence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOther changes made by the select committee include those made to clause 26, which redrafts section 78B of the Summary Proceedings Act to clarify the range of situations in which irregularities and infringement proceedings can be corrected by the courts. This section is quite complex, owing to the range of situations needing to be covered and the requirement to be fair to defendants whilst not affording undue opportunities to obstruct the infringement enforcement process on purely technical grounds. It was substantially expanded and reworded at the select committee stage, and some additional clarifying amendments will be proposed in a Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EClause 27 was also significantly expanded by the select committee. The original intention of this provision was to ensure that fines defaulters who are paying off fines or reparation by instalments and who experience a substantial financial windfall, or who are found to have given misleading information when entering into a payment arrangement, take responsibility for paying off the fines or reparation as soon as practicable. Currently, a fines defaulter who is meeting agreed instalment payments cannot be required to increase them, even if it comes to the ministry\u2019s attention that his or her circumstances have improved dramatically. Clause 27 therefore enables a registrar to take the initiative to vary the amounts payable under agreement. New subsections (2) and (3), inserted by the select committee in response to submissions, also empower a registrar to take steps to amend a time to pay or attachment order, in order to take account of an additional fine. This will avoid the need for the person to enter into a completely new arrangement for a new fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe select committee has also added a new amendment to section 88(3) of the Summary Proceedings Act. This relates to the use of charging orders against the property of fines defaulters. This is a civil enforcement mechanism that is not cost-effective unless the amount owed is relatively large. The committee concluded, however, that the current threshold in the Act for use of such orders is too high at $10,000. The Government agrees that this should be reduced to $5,000. A number of further minor, technical amendments to the Summary Proceedings Act have been incorporated in the bill by the select committee. These include, for example, provisions to sections 88 and 91 of the Act to enable warrants for the arrest of fines defaulters or the seizure of their goods to be in the form of a computer printout. The Supplementary Order Paper will include technical improvements of this nature, aimed at increasing efficiency of the enforcement proceedings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4df92ef1bf440a29cb9528a96b87d1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4df92ef1bf440a29cb9528a96b87d1f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition believes that this bill is a wasted opportunity to deal with the growing mountain of court and reparation debt in this country. That mountain of debt is now over $600 million, and, in fact, the vast majority of that $600 million is overdue. So the mountain of debt, owed by criminals and those who have been fined up and down the country, is escalating on a level that is unbelievable. The Law and Order Committee\u2019s own report states that the total debt in June 2003 was $500 million. In less than 2 years, it has grown to $600 million. So a lot more action is needed to deal with this mountain of debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhy should we be worried about the mountain of debt? For a number of reasons. This debt has come because many people have been punished for their offending and have been fined, and they are not paying. They have not faced up to their accountabilities. It gets worse, because in the last year, under Labour\u2019s law, $40 million of those fines have been wiped. The suffering of the victims could not be wiped. We should also be concerned because there is a growing mountain of debt owed to the victims of crime in New Zealand. Those reparations are going uncollected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat can be done? If the Government were truly serious about dealing with the mountain of debt owed by fines defaulters in this country, it would improve the level of information sharing between the Inland Revenue Department, the Ministry of Social Development, and the Ministry of Justice. But there are constraints on the information that can be provided in order to locate those fines defaulters, and those constraints need to be removed. Those who are being denied justice\u2014the victims and the Crown\u2014deserve to get their money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Government promotes this bill as some great new device to collect debts from fines defaulters. [Interruption] The Minister says, \u201CYes, it is too.\u201D Let me look at the numbers. Wait for this. Do members remember that when the Minister introduced this bill, he said it would be really tough on fines defaulters who left the country from airports? We asked the officials how many people would be stopped at airports by a warrant for arrest for being a fines defaulter. A hundred? Several hundred? Several thousand? The answer was 35.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b4d642a3e84456da230f5c1075d1743\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257e9c5506ab340f7aa751708bf710fb6\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It was 35. The Government introduced a bill that it said would crack down on fines defaulters leaving from airports. The number of people to be affected? It was 35, not 3,500 or 35,000. There is a $600 million mountain of debt, and Rick Barker\u2019s bill for fixing it means that 35 people will be stopped at airports. That is tough. It is about as tough as Phil Goff\u2019s sentencing bill. Thirty-five people would be stopped at airports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ESo the Government majority on the select committee acquiesced and decided to toughen up the bill. The Opposition party members said that surely we should be serious about this. If people can afford overseas airfares, which start at $189 with conditions, they can afford to pay their fines. So the Government reduced the threshold. The Opposition parties\u2014National, New Zealand First, and United Future\u2014said we should go further and make it work, but the Government said that it would drop down the threshold, in this get-tough bill, to a fine of $5,000 and a warrant for arrest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ELet me go through the numbers. There is $600 million of debt owed. Well over $350 million, I believe, is overdue. The Government says it will stop people going out of the country, through the airports, and will save money for New Zealand victims and the justice system. What did the officials say? They said that the bill as amended will stop 117 people at airports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E That is how many people will be stopped at airports, according to this bill. That is all\u2014117 will be stopped at airports. Do members know how much the officials said would be saved by this bill\u2014how much would be collected? It is $1.5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8c5d1413df34e5fa537c3e2ad6d9bd6\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221613411ccf040acac44d6ead49f4ca4\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is $1.5 million. We have a growing mountain of debt in this country\u2014$600 million; it could even be higher with the way that this Government has dishonestly hidden the Kyoto Protocol stuff\u2014and this Government has brought in a bill to tackle the debt owed by fines defaulters that will collect $1.5 million. That is 0.25 percent of the debt owed by fines defaulters in this country. What a wasted opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhen the Opposition parties said that we should improve the information regime and get all the addresses, phone numbers, workplace information, and personal details of fines defaulters so that we could go after them, that we should lower the threshold at which we will stop people at international airports so that we can actually get the money, and that we should back the call centres and look at the efficiencies of the Ministry of Justice\u2019s collections systems, what did the Government say? It said it would get tough, with a bill that will stop 117 people from leaving the country and collect less than 0.25 percent of the fines owed in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThat does not deal with the problem. We have to get that debt mountain down, because it is money that is owed to victims of crime or is a punishment for offending. It is money that could be used elsewhere in the State sector to improve the quality of public services and to provide benefits for New Zealanders. That is what the money could be used for. The Government is not taking the issue seriously. This bill is a wasted opportunity. The Government could have brought in changes to information sharing. It could have brought in much tougher criteria for people leaving the country, if they owe fines. It could have provided improved resources for the Ministry of Justice\u2019s collections systems. But instead we have some flim-flam that will stop 117 people at the airports and collect less than 0.25 percent of the debt mountain owed by fines defaulters in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIt is not a lot. In itself, $1.5 million is a lot of money, but as a proportion, 0.25 percent of the $600 million owed by fines defaulters in New Zealand is hardly worth the effort. But we tell this Government to take the opportunity during the Committee stage to move amendments that will improve information sharing, lower the thresholds at which we can stop people at international airports, and improve the collections systems of the Ministry of Justice. I guarantee the Government that it will get 120 votes in favour of those changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a97222f80a143ed82443ac4ee6fae59\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Can\u2019t guarantee it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b37b065a28fd4eeb9206d69ffe82f8e0\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I cannot essentially guarantee it, but I would expect to see 120 votes in favour of those changes. That is the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EGovernment members should wipe the grin off their face, especially in light of a poll that will be coming out in the next 3 days. For them to stand up in Parliament and say that they will get tough on 117 fines defaulters is hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf5a3c63fb834ca091fc955c657ecb73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf5a3c63fb834ca091fc955c657ecb73\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E As chair of the Law and Order Committee, I will be gracious and thank all the members of the committee for their hard work on the bill. I cannot conceal my disappointment in terms of the previous contribution and its negativity, but I acknowledge that all members of the committee did a lot of hard work on this bill. I thank in particular the deputy chair, Marc Alexander, and I also acknowledge my colleague Ron Mark and the Government members\u2014Georgina Beyer, Ann Hartley, and Mahara Okeroa\u2014for the work they did. I want to pick up and re-emphasise the main points of this bill. I will take only a very short call, because we have a long way to go. The Leader of the House will be most comforted by the fact that I will take a short call, because I anticipate much debate in the Committee stage and at the subsequent third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EBasically, in summary, as the Minister has said, this bill updates and improves a number of aspects of the law relating to the enforcement of fines and civil debts. It will significantly improve the Ministry of Justice\u2019s capacity to enforce and collect unpaid fines. As has been detailed, I believe that our committee has recommended a number of very worthwhile improvements to the bill. I note also that the Minister, in his address to the House, noted that further substantial changes to the law relating to fines enforcement will result from a comprehensive review of the infringement fines system that is now being undertaken by the Ministry of Justice in conjunction with the Law Commission. A discussion document was issued last year that outlined the issues being addressed in the review. A number of very useful submissions have been received, and the Minister will make further announcements about the progress of that review in the near future. It will be a comprehensive review, with comprehensive submissions\u2014not the sort of 30-second sound bite - type of contribution that was made by the previous speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EWe will be talking during this debate about the ability of airports to intercept significant fines defaulters, and about where the reasonable line is. If a person owes 20 or 30 bucks for a parking ticket and is going for a week or so to the Gold Coast, will he or she get zapped and pulled out of the passenger queue for that? Where is the reasonable line? I anticipate debate about where that line should be, and also about the need for flexibility as cost of living indices change over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI want to highlight perhaps one area and then I will sit down, because I know we will have a long session on this bill. That issue relates to the visit made by the select committee last year to Australia, as part of a parliamentary exchange. I note that the bill does not provide for a reciprocal information-sharing policy with Australia, in terms of targeting New Zealand fines defaulters who are now resident in Australia. But, as a select committee, we continue to have an ongoing interest in the ministry\u2019s efforts to target New Zealand fines defaulters who live overseas, especially in Australia. That is a difficult and complex area to address, but in our view the bill provides a good starting place. It targets people with fines owing who are leaving New Zealand for Australia, and we strongly encourage the ministry to continue to look at ways to collect outstanding fines that can be linked to New Zealanders who live in Australia. If someone escapes from a custodial sentence, he or she can be extradited back across the Tasman for crimes attracting custodial sentences. But, quite frankly, if someone who has huge fines outstanding here is living in Darwin or Perth, or vice versa\u2014if someone who lives in Taumarunui comes from Perth, or wherever else in Australia\u2014then we need to look at better reciprocal arrangements. The select committee observed, when we visited Australia, that even the interstate arrangements were not as perfect as they could be. There is more work in progress that needs to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI will be taking further calls later in this debate. I take the opportunity now to thank the committee for its hard work, and I look forward to the passage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002261c67c667afa4cc8a8b1415f080978ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c67c667afa4cc8a8b1415f080978ad\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable Ron Mark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002298d43413de7f4f479ff7b0aa96ddeeaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298d43413de7f4f479ff7b0aa96ddeeaa\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E You must be clairvoyant, Madam Speaker\u2014or be looking at the election poll results that are coming through now. Thank you for that compliment. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b8ae095c7d54b2e9b87f54d876145c6\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Say that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226da80292a717438f97bad15f834b7842\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I said that Madam Speaker must be clairvoyant or must have just been reading the polls. I appreciate the compliment, although I am not an \u201Chonourable\u201D yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat can I say? Out of 10 points, being really generous on this Friday, I would give the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa201a251f0249a68a779f4baac49c66\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Give us a C pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e318e5a1ce44dc8eaec41f9e860f79\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I would give a National Certificate of Educational Achievement pass\u2014whatever that is worth these days\u2014to Minister Swain, but I would say: \u201CNice try.\u201D As they used to say, \u201Cnice try\u201D meant: tried hard, meant well, but failed, and probably the army description of what we have here is: \u201CThis soldier tried hard, meant well, but failed.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EOnce again, Mr Barker is proving to this House that if he is the best man the Government can find in its caucus for this job, then God help Martin Gallagher\u2019s mum and dad! We over here would say that Martin Gallagher is far more competent and capable than that pathetic Minister Mr Barker. Members should remember that this is the Minister who, when New Zealand First asked how many violent criminals were on home detention, stood in this House and said there were no violent offenders on home detention. But what did New Zealand First table? In answer to a written question we tabled his own department\u2019s statement that rapists, child-beaters, thugs, murderers, andwife-beaters\u2014any piece of scum that could be found on the bottom of a shoe\u2014were on home detention. This is the same man who brought this bill to the Law and Order Committee to \u201Cget tough on fines\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMr Barker is the man who runs around the country boasting about his \u201Cconfiscated car club\u201D and \u201Cname shame\u201D campaigns. The money recovered through the procedures in this bill will not pay for even the advertising in the \u201Cname shame\u201D campaign. It will not pay for the advertising in the \u201Cconfiscated car club\u201D campaign. He is running up a deficit already, and God forbid what we would find if we tallied up how many hours Parliament\u2014the select committee and the House\u2014has spent on this bill. Opposition MPs have been trying their level best to assist him. He has accepted some advice, but the guts of the advice he has been offered has been rejected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI remind the House that on 14 May 2003 New Zealand First first started asking questions about outstanding fines. On 14 May 2003 we lodged written questions asking what the level of outstanding fines was and what brackets we were talking about. We got the most amazing answer\u2014something like $450 million was owed in outstanding fines, with some young punks out there owing up to $90,000. This Government has been trying to promote itself in the eyes of the public as being fiscally prudent, frugal, and a good manager of the economy. What Government in its right mind would allow some boy-racer punk to run up $90,000 worth of fines and then\u2014worse still\u2014would allow the court, which has not been able to collect those fines, to write off the lot in return for 400 hours\u2019 community service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EOne of those young punks was getting paid $140 an hour for not turning up to community service and for not doing the work he was supposed to do, because he did not pay the fines that had been imposed on him by the courts, which the courts could not recover\u2014so everybody gave up, put him back in the courts again, and gave him community service. That is ridiculous\u2014and they call this the smart Government!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThis Government is full of academics, professors, and all sorts of people who like to teach people, and to tell them how to live their lives. It is the original \u201Cnancy State\u201D Government. But what does it do with boy racers who flout the law\u2014who undermine the very integrity of the judicial system and the law enforcement process by gaily clocking up heaps of fines, then thumbing their noses at the police and the courts, and walking away from it all? The level of interdiction in this bill would only target 117 people and recover $1.5 million\u2014less than a quarter of 1 per cent of the sum of outstanding fines. That is pathetically inadequate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat did New Zealand First say? New Zealand First said that the Government must get tough. Anyone with an outstanding fine should not be going on holiday to Queensland or Bondi, or spending Christmas in Fiji, until the fine is cleared. How are victims of bashing, burglary, or car conversion expected to feel when they see their offenders getting on board planes to go to Bondi? It is ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d468b73c35e544bda5cb94125ce65a5f\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Well, don\u2019t ring 111.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218804326c3884736b13d1ea3f4b3f6a3\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: If they ring 111 they will only get a cab. But they will not get a cab to Bondi\u2014they will be told that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe ridiculous thing about this bill is that we had a prime window of opportunity to go out and grab defaulters by the throat. But the real rub is that this Government is responsible for boosting the level of unpaid fines, because it runs a quota ticketing system aimed not at boy racers but at nana and granddad. It is aimed at recovering fines clocked up by people like an elderly pensioner, who was driving too fast to get to church on Sunday because she thought she would be late, down High Street in Rangiora where the highway patrol was sitting looking for the big-time speeders. Those police were not in Queen Street at 2 o\u2019clock in the morning when the hoons were burning out their tyres at the intersection, but they were there to catch nana going to church. They gave her a fine but, because nana is on a pension, she cannot afford to pay it. So where is the outstanding fine? It is sitting against nana\u2019s name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EInstead of targeting the hoons\u2014the recidivist offenders who clock up $60,000 or $90,000 worth of fines\u2014by locking them up, by grabbing them at the airport, and by sharing all the information held by the Inland Revenue Department and Work and Income within the Ministry of Social Development so that the courts can find the little beggars, the Government latches on to nana, because it knows her address. She is a law-abiding citizen. Her name is on the electoral roll. They can find her at the snap of a finger. But the people who cause this mountain of debt are those who deliberately go out to undermine the judicial system and the integrity of our law enforcement system by hiding themselves away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThat issue was the one issue that came through very loud and clear from all the submissions. The biggest problem the courts have, the reason they cannot collect these fines, is that they cannot find the offenders. But I tell members that Baycorp can. Baycorp has far better resources and far greater capability to find those people, who now owe some $600 million worth of outstanding fines. With $600 million we could buy another 105 LAV IIIs. We could pay half the Kyoto Protocol carbon tax bill with that. We could do goodness knows how many hip or cataract operations with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut no, this Government says we cannot give the courts the information held by the Inland Revenue Department or Work and Income. At the airport we cannot stop people who are going on holiday to Hawaii and collect the $10,000 they owe\u2014or the $5,000 or the $1,000. It is ridiculous, absurd, and nonsensical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBy its very actions in failing to accept New Zealand First\u2019s recommendations, this Government is undermining its own ability to enforce the law. It is undermining the integrity of the police who issue the infringement notices, the integrity of the prosecutors, the integrity of the courts, and the integrity of the collections officers who are trying to get the money. It is wasting everybody\u2019s bloody time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is time this Government went if it does not have the gumption, the sense, the brains, or the intelligence to recognise one simple fact: to collect fines, the courts need information. The information resides with the Inland Revenue Department, Work and Income New Zealand, and with the banking industry of this country. If the Government cannot recognise that Baycorp can collect those fines while the Government itself cannot, then I give up\u2014and no doubt so will the rest of the country as soon as the election is called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6821319dd1b4cfebc3519d309350e65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6821319dd1b4cfebc3519d309350e65\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of ACT New Zealand to speak to the second reading of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill. This bill purports to get tough on the collection of fines and civil debt, yet according to the speeches that we have just heard from the National Party member and the New Zealand First member, that will not happen; this bill just does not do the job. The ACT party did not have a member on the Law and Order Committee that saw this bill, but we feel very strongly about this issue. I want to join the previous speakers in calling on the Government to get tough on the people who commit these crimes, so that they pay their fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe basic problem with crime and fines in this country is that we have crimes that people do not really consider to be the result of illegal action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E The size of the fines in this country is arbitrary in many cases. Certainly, many of the fines do not seem to fit the offence that has been committed. The result, of course, is that the wealthy just write out a cheque and forget about what they have done, while those who do not have such substantial means simply do not pay their fines. In fact, in many cases, they have absolutely no chance of paying, so the fine goes unpaid. We have all heard any number of examples of the traffic offences of young boy racers in particular who clock up one fine after another that they never pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe difficulty when people commit crimes that do not seem to be the result of illegal activity is that the message is all wrong. The fines are in place to try to dissuade people from repeating what they have just done. But we have seen that there is no dissuasion in a situation where people are just able to write out a cheque that means nothing to them. Alternatively, for those who do not pay, or who have absolutely no means of paying their fines as they mount up, there is also no dissuasion from committing that same offence again. So we get repeat activity after repeat activity. The message that that sends to people is that they can just go out there and break the law, and keep on doing what they are doing. The only people who pay fines in the country are the law-abiding, because we know where they live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d00642df8124d679c67a59640b53f46\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: And they\u2019re honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286357c0ac8b04c8e93e59c15324173ec\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they are honest. They admit to the fact that they owe that money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI am very grateful to the National Party member Mr Tony Ryall for pointing out some of the facts that I did not know because I did not have the benefit of being on the Law and Order Committee. I think that the people of New Zealand should know those facts. Before we set off through the select committee process, the officials\u2019 advice was that 35 people would be affected by the legislation. But after the select committee process, and after a few amendments were made\u2014not very many and none that were tough\u2014I am told that a staggering 117 people will be stopped at the airport at a cost, according to Mr Ryall, of 0.25 percent of the total amount of debt that we have at the moment. There is $1.5 million saved as a result of the bill. What has the bill cost the taxpayer to date? More than $1.5 million, I would contend, when one considers the cost of the officials, the cost of members of Parliament, and the associated administrative costs. I would say that we are already in a net loss situation with the bill. We have to ask ourselves why we are proceeding with it. It is, of course, because there is a message to send to people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe bill is in two parts: the first relates specifically to the policy proposal to apprehend fines defaulters at airports; and the second focuses on fines enforcement proposals and amendments. In actual fact, there is an argument in respect of stopping people at the borders\u2014which nobody has raised so far\u2014that we might actually be doing the country a favour if we did not stop those 117 people at the borders. We should, perhaps, pay their fare to Australia, or wherever it is that they are going, and let them incur further debts in the country they go to. There is no reciprocal arrangement, and if we look a bit further through the commentary we come to the point that the bill does not provide for a reciprocal information-sharing policy with Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThat is an extraordinarily disappointing outcome of the select committee process. The committee said that it would like to have seen this. It has not happened. People, no matter what fine they have incurred, should be liable for it. They should be chased until that fine is paid. Until that sort of action is taken and adhered to rigidly, people will be encouraged to keep on committing offences because there is no requirement, in practical terms, to pay up. The idea of picking up a few people at airports\u2014we are told that 117 is the estimate\u2014is ridiculous in the greater scheme of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to look at the comments of my colleague Muriel Newman. In her first reading speech, she was quoting 2001 figures. On 1 May 2003 there were $487 million of unpaid fines, $314 million of which were overdue. Fortunately, the select committee must have been given updated information, because we now know that on 30 June 2003 there was a total of $500 million, by 31 May 2004 the figure was $572 million, and now, others tell me, that figure has risen to above $600 million. I suspect it is much greater than that, because that last figure, $572 million, was from over a year ago, and we have heard this week about Kyoto Protocol underestimations\u2014there are probably underestimations in every department that we are looking at. So the total is $600 million, and a large proportion of that is overdue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIt is always distressing to see fines being wiped. Fines are clocked up, with no requirement to pay, and when they are absolutely beyond the means of the individual, they are suddenly wiped. We have heard this morning that $40 million has been wiped from the over $600 million of debt that now exists. When people break the law they should be punished, they should be fined, and they should pay up. We need legislation in this country that allows the enforcement of this. I am afraid to say that this legislation just does not do it. I join with my colleagues on this side of the House to say that this legislation is a wasted opportunity to get on top of the growing mountain of debt that has proliferated under this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe commentary goes on to state that the bill \u201Callows a formal information-sharing regime to be established between the ministry, the Customs, and the Department of Labour,\u201D, and quite rightly so. I do not know quite why we had to go to the select committee to allow this to happen. I see that there are amendments to the Privacy Act, which, I presume, are put in place so that this information sharing can happen. It should not be just an informal thing; it must be formal so that each department has the opportunity to share information that they know about individuals, particularly if people are going to be picked up at airports\u2014even if there are only 117 of them. I suppose we should all be very grateful that it has increased in size from the 35 that we originally thought. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EFurther on, the commentary states that the monetary threshold for information sharing has increased. The amended definition of \u201Cserious default\u201D was previously $1,000 owing. It now seems that any amount owing will be able to be collected. I hope that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be29403ff5484499b29329b6536258c6\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Only of reparation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221716578f4ad2402ebcb6f90e47f07c77\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: But only of reparation, I am now told. So those powers need to be much more wide sweeping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand would like to see rigorous debate in the Committee stage. It is not, of course, too late to see some tough amendments put in place so that the right message is sent to those people who commit offences, and who then think that there is no point in paying them back because nobody will make them. We want to see provisions made for the improved collection of fines, and, very important, we would like to see reciprocal information-sharing, especially with Australia, so that it is not possible just to hop on a plane. A person may not be one of the 117 who are caught, but gets through and suddenly is scot-free until he or she comes back to the country. That is perfectly unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWe need to take into account the rights of victims. What about the victims in all of this? I have been having a quick read through the bill and I cannot see anything about victims here. It is very important that they are considered, and it is certainly not fair that they are left with the consequences for a long time, but those who created the offences are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u0022c386837c0ff242589464fdc9d4b5c472\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c386837c0ff242589464fdc9d4b5c472\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to address the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill. I guess I am a little more positive about the bill in at least one sense: it is baby steps, it points the nose in the right direction, and it at least does something. Nevertheless, it is a wasted opportunity, as a lot of the previous speakers have said, and it could have been a lot tougher. But, to be perfectly honest, when compared with what we had previously, it is a hell of a way forward. I can see amendments coming down the track very soon, when the anticipated results of this legislation fall far short of what the expectations might have been, but at least the early building blocks are there to push us in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EInterestingly enough, I do not think the bill is really meant to make any major changes in the fines enforcement processes; rather, it is intended to refine and update the existing system. That is a pity, because the bill could have been much, much more than it is. The fact is\u2014and some people have already commented on this\u2014that most fines defaulters, when they have fines or reparation orders to pay, are able to leave New Zealand permanently, or are able to leave and re-enter the country, without being brought to the attention of anyone. It is a blight on our criminal justice system that people can effectively escape the punishment that was imposed upon them, in such a frivolous manner. Members have raised the idea of people hopping on board a plane and going over for a weekend to Bondi, while owing thousands of dollars in reparation to victims they have ripped off, hurt, or victimised previously. That is an affront but, unfortunately, if we look at the prison system, we see that things are not much better there, either. Where is the accountability? If a person does manage eventually to get into prison, that person will serve only one-third of the sentence before being up for parole, and in a sense what we have seen is a mirroring of exactly that inadequacy when it comes to reparations and fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThere is a provision to enhance information sharing\u2014to improve the existing information-matching and information-sharing arrangements between the Ministry of Justice, the Inland Revenue Department, and the Ministry of Social Development\u2014and one wonders why that was not addressed earlier and in a wider sense. I admit that it probably would lie outside the scope of this legislation, but there is no reason why other areas of crime ought not to be equally covered and given some legislative teeth. We have a range of criminals in this country who, seemingly at will, can walk away from their punishments. We witnessed just recently the case of a sex offender, the paedophile in Blackball, who went there without his parole conditions allowing him to do so. What happened to him? Nothing! He was told that he was not allowed to go there or to be there under the provisions of his parole conditions, but nothing was done. He just simply walked away, with no punishment. And we see again that same attitude demonstrated right throughout the criminal justice system\u2014a lackadaisical attitude towards the enforcement of punishment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe problem is that we find that people learn from each other. They learn that if others get fines or punishments and they do not fulfil their obligations, nothing happens\u2014they get away with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268653d45512344e4a74b1fd1c05abcaa\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not very tough, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f829cbd5824d5dbcec03ea89c9132b\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not tough, at all. In fact, just as an aside, I tell members that I did a bit of research on the tough law and order policies of this Government, because the Government claimed that the Sentencing Act of 2002 would keep more people in jail. In fact, the average length of prison terms has increased by only 6 months. How is that tougher? Ninety-two percent of the population said that they wanted there to be tougher sentencing and harsher conditions in prison. Those people wanted punishment to be brought back into the penal system, but what has happened? This Government has turned round and slapped them in the face, by saying that it will up the time offenders spend in prison by an average of 6 pathetic, measly months. And can members guess what? The rate of violence in this country has escalated astronomically, all out of kilter with the extra 6 months in prison that prisoners actually receive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce54fd11b2043f993405fc061756fa6\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: They serve only 2 months of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405bf9ba889a409ea8c790c84de99bf1\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: That is probably right. But I come back to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EOne wonders why, if the information-sharing provision is to expedite the tracking of defaulters, it has not been expanded and enhanced for other areas of crime, such as rent arrears, benefit fraud, and victim reparations. The Inland Revenue Department seems to be the one instrument of this Government that is tenacious. It will go after people whether they are in a hospital bed or even, I dare say, if they are 6 feet under. Even if people are cremated, the Inland Revenue Department will be after them, because that department has the long-fingered hand of the Minister of Finance. The red that Labour wears so proudly is the blood of taxpayers, and the long fingers of Cullen are everywhere. They go into the pockets of ordinary New Zealanders and pick those pockets, with no sense of shame whatsoever. Yet if a person commits a crime, he or she gets a wet bus ticket. People who commit crimes get reparation orders and fines, but they can walk away\u2014nothing happens. That is sad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe Hon Tony Ryall pointed out that $600 million is owed in fines and reparation orders, and that over half of that is overdue. That is an additional cost, over and above that of the original offending, and it is borne by the victims and the law-abiding alike. Who ends up having to pay for the agencies that have to go after those individuals? Well, it is us, the law-abiding and the victims, while the offenders walk away and very little is done about that. The fines and reparation orders are unenforceable punishments. They represent justice that is denied, because the point of them is that they are actually a punishment. But those people walk away, to the tune of the $600 million that is still owed. If those people get away with that, what does that say about the force of law? There is no point in passing legislation in this House that tries to grasp some idea of what the criminal justice system should be about, and then not enforcing it. It is a paper tiger; it is toothless and a waste of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe issue goes to the very nature of punishment and respect for the law\u2014something that is increasingly lacking amongst those who are lawless. When Government members stand up and argue they have had a drop in crime of 4 percent, of 2 percent, of 1 percent, or of whatever it may be, I say that is not really good enough. Violent crime rates are going up. In fact, I was given an email\u2014and I do not know how true this is\u2014stating that the only crime that had gone down by 100 percent was in the electorate of the Hon Paul Swain, and it was in an interesting but dubious form of animal husbandry. That says just about everything regarding the law and order approach of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe effect of this bill, as somebody else has pointed out, is that 117 people will be stopped at airports. That is not a helluva lot. I dare say, though, that if there is a positive side, it will be that a few more people, knowing this law is in effect, may actually front up and pay some of the money that is owing. It will not be many people, but some will\u2014in the same way that the threat of publishing names in newspapers brings people out of the woodwork, and gets their hands into their pockets to pay some of the fines they owe. But those people tend to be the easy ones, the ones who are basically lawful, anyway. It is the other ones we really need to target, and we are not doing very well in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EWe can see where the emphasis in this legislation lies, however. This legislation is all about trying to be tough, trying to go after some money, and trying to enforce the law. But the point is that it does try\u2014it is a step in the right direction. The legislation takes baby steps, but it is something we have to support, because at least it is in the right direction and sends the right signal. However, much more needs to be done, and the legislation needs to be much tougher than it presently is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022898266b005d14982a0cad4b9b44dbe8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022898266b005d14982a0cad4b9b44dbe8c\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table a press release dated 28 May 2003, entitled \u201CKiwis rack up huge traffic fines\u201D, which shows that 556 people owed over $10,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c4a2d45b9124dd4874956b2bdbd3ee7\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c577a5fc8d154d22b2e5bba817c5df4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c577a5fc8d154d22b2e5bba817c5df4e\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table another document dated 2 May 2003, entitled \u201CQuota ticketing is a fishy business\u201D, highlighting the fact that a gentleman owed over $30,000 in outstanding fines, so the Government is wasting its time by chasing ordinary people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ee097d656747b48dc3bdca899d160c\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u002201f19847d3574dd5b6e16f1766fc97f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201f19847d3574dd5b6e16f1766fc97f2\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome the chance to rise in this Parliament at midday, on Friday, to speak in support of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill. I must say that any bill that has been sired by the Hon Rick Barker and wrenched from the loins of Martin Gallagher\u2019s committee has a good pedigree, and we can be sure it will perform well on the track of social justice. Those people who are talking about waste of time should reflect upon the hours spent in this Chamber, where to quantify would reflect on much productive effort\u2014unlike the very good work of Martin Gallagher and his committee, who have delivered to us a bill that this country will look upon, finally, as being a good piece of social engineering, to deliver back into the coffers of the Government that which we deserve. I support the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022607fabb9696a4e5b939d02f0a3a5677b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022607fabb9696a4e5b939d02f0a3a5677b\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I love the smell of urgency. It builds the collegial spirit, which is just so necessary for a team that will be going into Government very, very soon. It toughens one up. I issue an invitation to anyone from the Opposition parties to come to coffee before we commence again tomorrow morning, because we are digging in on this issue. National members will drag it out, because we like being toughened up. We know what is ahead of us, unlike this Government, which is soft, soft, soft, and I am about to explain why. This bill is a lost opportunity of immense proportions. The Government said it would get tough on fines defaulters, but what it proposes is, as Mr Alexander said, a slap on the wrist with a wet bus-ticket. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI want to thank the members of the Law and Order Committee who worked on this bill. I will even acknowledge that some fair work was done on the part of the Government members. It is not their fault that their leadership is soft on crime and they had to work on conditions that were imposed on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EA key objective of this bill, and the most substantial part, is to improve the compliance of fines defaulters who travel overseas. Let us have a look at the scope of this problem. In June 2003 there was approximately $500 million in unpaid fines, and of that amount $305 million was overdue. On 31 May 2004 it was a whopping $527 million in unpaid fines, and the overdue component was $326 million. Now we are told, and I accept Mr Ryall\u2019s figures, that it is now over $600 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4550b0a8424411dba83e48f6943157a\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s at December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff8281c65714df38101673085173ced\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Ryall tells me that is the figure as at December last year. Goodness knows what it might be now!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034caed4eed4400188eb46d7fb18be82\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s probably $650 million now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcabc01064ea4fd6be50c49db1f14258\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: It could be as high as $650 million, or even $700 million, and the unpaid component, I imagine, will have gone through $350 million already. We have been told that this bill will fix that problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EUnder the bill as it was introduced, as Mr Ryall pointed out, only 35 people would have been stopped at the border, and now, as it has been recommended back to the House, 117 people will be stopped. That is one person every 3 days. That will scare the hell out of those people who thumb their nose at being fined\u2014that will really scare them! That will make them lie awake at night and think: \u201CShould I take the risk of travelling, or not, because this tough, mean Government has introduced this tough, mean bill that will stop me at the border and say: \u2018You need to pay your fines!\u2019.\u201D Pigs might fly, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe revenue from fines collected will be about $1.5 million. That is 0.25 percent of $600 million, and we are expected to believe that is tough. I ask my colleagues what the point is of introducing a fines regime if legislation to enforce it is not also put in place. The problem is not with the people out there being fined; it comes right back to this Parliament, right back to this Government, which is soft on crime and sends out all the wrong messages to the criminals of this country. It sends the message: \u201CIt doesn\u2019t matter if you get a fine; the chances of it being imposed are slight.\u201D The only people who pay fines in this country are the compliant people, the mums and dads who go about their everyday business and get caught by a traffic officer on one of our main highways for doing 4 or 5 kilometres over the speed limit\u2014and that is meant to be an example of being tough. The only reason they get nailed is because they have a fixed abode, so the authorities know where they live. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ERather than take the opportunity to drive home that message to people who thumb their nose at the fines regime in this country, this Government let that opportunity slip through its fingers. It is not as if we cannot find out where those people live. The excuse we have been given is that most fine defaulters have no fixed abode, keep moving addresses, and cannot be found. But if they are registered with the Inland Revenue Department, or if they register their Lotto number and have a win in the Lotto, they can be found\u2014no problem whatsoever. Michael Cullen and his cronies have no problem whatsoever finding out where those people are if they have an inland revenue issue. That is the great travesty of this PC, soft Government. Rather than insist that Government departments share information, it has allowed the Inland Revenue Department not to share this information. That window could have been closed very, very simply, but it has not been. The ministry tells us that, at present, the system of enforcement is very ad hoc. I will allow that this bill goes somewhat towards improving that situation, but, as I have said, it is a shame that the opportunity has been lost in such huge proportions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe ministry receives information about a fines defaulter for whom there is a warrant for arrest. It normally gets that information because of an ex-partner or someone the fines defaulter owes money to dobbing him or her in. That is how this system normally operates. The ministry then tells the police, and the police, if they are not too busy on our main highways writing tickets or trapping motorists, will wander down to the airport, intercept someone, and tell him or her to pay the fine or be arrested. That sounds all well and good\u2014very ad hoc. The chances of being stopped are one person in three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8b4a9be3914e2f8a7a3f522c51ddb5\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022172c9dc0942546208276f703c4d7a308\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: One person in three. Those are the odds. They are not bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223054dedbcebf49e8a4af99cbb9b0daf7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: No, one person every 3 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223048b2afdc9c4d0fae8bc9b5f4c38413\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: One person every 3 days. They are not bad odds. Fine defaulters will say: \u201CWell, I\u2019ll take the chance. I\u2019ll travel. What\u2019s the issue?\u201D. But if fines defaulters are caught, they are told to pay their fine, and if they say they cannot afford to pay, they are released on bail. They are set free. It is like the woman during the Michael Jackson trial who released a white dove every time someone was released. This is what happens: Michael Cullen sits there with all those white doves, and every time someone is arrested then released on bail, he releases a white dove. That is the teeth of this bill. Rather than close down the system, the Government has reinforced it\u2014and the Government wonders why people have no confidence in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EWe were told by the Government that one of the reasons it could not enforce the situation more vigorously is that it would interrupt overseas travellers. The ministry\u2019s suggestion on this has some merit. It suggested loading a silent alert system into the New Zealand Customs Service database that would alert the authorities, as someone checked in, not to load that person\u2019s baggage if a warrant was out for his or her arrest. That suggestion makes a lot of sense, but it would work only if, at the other end, there was an enforcement regime that threatened people sufficiently enough for them not to take the risk. It will not work unless we have a tougher approach from this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe other lost opportunity was in respect of the liable parents who, all the time, drift out of this country to Australia. Was this net widened to incorporate those people as the National Party members suggested? No, the Government could not do that; it would be politically incorrect. So there is another lost opportunity. On one hand mum and dad, the compliant people in this country, will pay their fines, but on the other hand the boy racers will not get nailed. Those liable parents\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d72a2adfb6d49a683ebd6d0a8504c83\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ll get nana!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022283440786e2f4352873748358fa06a3c\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: They will get nana, but there will be no repercussion for liable parents whatsoever. Here is a Government that maintains that it is tough on crime, but when the rubber meets the road, it is soft, soft, soft. Unless, when we go into Committee, there are significant amendments brought to support this bill, National will have severe reservations about whether to continue its support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002226dbd7ca71ab4a08aa492d48467d9eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226dbd7ca71ab4a08aa492d48467d9eb4\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to make a couple of comments about this, and I have to say that that was an example of another road to Damascus experience from that member. [Interruption] \u201CWhat about his CV?\u201D, my colleague asked. Well, we will not go into that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe National Government had 9 years to do something about fines defaulters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba2d4570142413d9741df88691040cf\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5cca841c22848d0a39b75fa3b73f1c7\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he is fired up\u2014he has had his muesli this morning. Somebody put some chilli powder on the muesli this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis bill talks about people being stopped at the border. To put that into plain language, it sets up a trigger mechanism, so that if that member wanted to go to Sydney and he is triggered on the system as having fines, then he can be stopped at the border. [Interruption] I think the member is out of control. The enforcement mechanism, which he bleats on about and says does not, apparently, exist in the bill, means he would be stopped at the border and would not get on the plane. He would not be allowed to go until the fine is paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe have defaulters going back 20 or 30 years, and I would have thought that that member, Tony Ryall, who was the Minister of Justice for a period during those 9 long years of the last National Government, might have done something about that. But now, when the rubber has hit the road, we have introduced a bill to tighten up the situation and have put forward some practical measures like data matching with the Customs Service, information sharing with the Inland Revenue Department, and stopping people at the border so that they do not get out unless they pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EOf course, members opposite say that it is not tough enough, that it is all wrong, and that we should do a whole series of other things. Well, I ask why the lift did not make the top floor with that member in it while his party was in Government. Why did the last National Government not have all the ideas that those members have proposed to the House today, now that they have no responsibility and they know damn well they cannot implement anything? Why did they not propose those solutions then? Why did Tony Ryall, when he was the Minister, not actually propose something while he was in Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d84c1a7f554acea9361f052218a393\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Because the debt was half of what it is now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223d0bc757ccf4dae9011ec53820e62ec\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: That is his alibi and excuse for doing absolutely nothing apart from parking his ministerial backside into a limousine and taking his pay. Because the debt was half, he did nothing about it, he says. I suppose that means that if, under a National Government, the crime and murder rates were half what they are now, those members would say that they should not do anything about it. People would still be getting killed and burglaries would still be going on, but they would do nothing. Well, I thank Mr Ryall, who will be the next Minister of Justice\u2014or so he says. What a wonderful campaign slogan that will be to take around the country!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf11df7833ee433689d0a3768d202aeb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: A few halfwits!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7170f9e10f5438e91c73593f2dd62cd\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there are a few halfwits over there\u2014absolutely! So when things get to be about half as bad as they are now, Mr Ryall will say: \u201CWhite flag! I\u2019m off. I will do nothing.\u201D That attitude tells members in this House a lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Ryall that for 9 years he had an opportunity to tidy up the fines defaulter system, but National members never put forward one piece of legislation that would tighten it up. They never did the sort of simple thing that my colleague Mr Barker has done\u2014the \u201Cname and shame\u201D campaign. Now, I like that, because the names of the people who do default are put out there. I am not sure what the statistics are for those who have paid up because they have been shamed, but it is a really simple idea\u2014put an advertisement in the paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut Mr Ryall says that because the numbers of fines defaulters were only half what they are now, he chose to do nothing. I really do thank him for that contribution, because it tells the people of New Zealand a heck of a lot about National. If things are half as bad, those members are off down the beach in their Speedos, out with the tanning oil, and getting a tan\u2014they do not care! Well, the Labour Government has now done something to fix that problem. We have introduced practical measures in this bill. What did those members put forward when they were in Government? They put forward nothing. What do they put forward now? They still put forward nothing. They simply say that when it is half as bad, they will go off to the beach and do nothing. That was a pathetic response from that side of the House. Despite the gasbagging coming from the member for Rakaia, this is a good bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d034cbcac604e659b00a00408a982c1\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: They used to stand for something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228511e93e1e234961810fd1916405d042\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: National members used to stand for something, but now they sit for something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Courts and Criminal Matters Bill is a good bill, and I support it. Yet again, people will know that we put forward the practical ideas and the solutions that are implemented, while National members do nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00221e0b2f5950c44623bf9d74150a7db8d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e0b2f5950c44623bf9d74150a7db8d2\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In listening to those contributions, I feel moved to move that the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill be referred back to the Law and Order Committee so that it may be strengthened and improved in respect of information-sharing legislation, so as to enable the Inland Revenue Department and the Ministry of Social Development to be able to provide all necessary information to the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b85979e32854e16b06393873dda16f4\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is completely out of order. It is not a point of order and he cannot do that. [Interruption] You did not seek leave; that was the problem. You moved, and you cannot do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423a2fcb3e7142a2b5b12e49327b3cb6\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for your guidance. I seek the leave of the House to move that the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill be referred back to the Law and Order Committee so that it may be strengthened in order to give greater powers to the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022371681ba39d4444e96d19d834be21c31\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00224b074477b1884cfe8a996b1fe9c17031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b074477b1884cfe8a996b1fe9c17031\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E One would have to have very much a sixth sense to see that the previous speaker was talking about the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill. The bill is important legislation. National supports it. We do so with reservations because in many parts it is incredibly weak-kneed. Here was a great opportunity to advance legislation that could have dealt so much more effectively with the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe other point that I would make in my opening comment is that the bill\u2019s legislative history is simply appalling. It was introduced on 14 May 2003, had a first reading 5 days later, on 19 June, then went off to the Law and Order Committee, where it languished for months. Although Labour members of Parliament praise it in this House as being legislation that is urgent and necessary, the legislative history hardly supports that proposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe imposition of fines for breach of the criminal law is a core sanction, and in the mass of legislation passing through this Parliament criminal offences are created and refined. A common sentence is the imposition of a monetary penalty. There is a clear direction to the sentencing judge in both the Sentencing Act 2002 and its predecessor, the Criminal Justice Act, to take into account the financial circumstances of the offender before imposing a fine. For example, in section 40(1) of the Sentencing Act, the following words occur: \u201CIn determining the amount of a fine, the court must take into account, \u2026 the financial capacity of the offender.\u201D Later provisions in this legislation detail how the financial capacity of an offender is to be discerned. For example, section 41(2) provides for offenders to make a declaration as to their financial capacity. That point is relevant because, when fines are imposed, the sentencing officer has to be satisfied that those offenders have the ability to make those payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is an absolute disgrace\u2014and reflects no credit on this Government, at all\u2014that the debt mountain has truly soared. It stands now at a figure that may be in the order of $600 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e90328ff1fa0493ea7d9285fabc4af21\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: $650 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53a6d7997f340dbafda27a12e90dfe8\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Apparently, the correct figure is $650 million. But monetary penalties are not a sentencing possibility for just breaches of what we could call black-letter criminal law. Fines may be imposed for breach of a raft of statutes; the Resource Management Act and the Commerce Act are two good examples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ENational supported this bill being referred to the select committee. We did that on the basis that it was a praiseworthy aim to deal more effectively with fines collections. So it is hugely disappointing to see the legislation come back in the form that it has despite attempts by National members to tighten it up in a meaningful way. So I tell members opposite that when the National Party becomes the next Government in September 2005 it will be looking again at this legislation, to tighten it up and lower the threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EOne of the things that the Government has done is to commence upon a campaign to publicly name people in the columns of the daily press because of frustration at the amounts owed. I think that strategy has been successful, certainly in some areas. It has been done against the background of big amounts that have been outstanding. In Nelson and Marlborough the Department for Courts, as it was then called\u2014now the Ministry of Justice\u2014was owed some $7 million in court fines. In the South Canterbury district there were defaulters with an amount outstanding of $1.2 million. One can instance the case of the Manukau City Council, which says that faulty paperwork has allowed thousands of motorists to dodge paying their parking fines for years. In the case of that council, there has been a loss in the order of $3.6 million. So we see some attempts, feeble though they may be, by dint of publishing the names of offenders, to ensure recovery by a process akin to shaming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI was interested to read in the Dominion Post of 5 May a comment from a ministry spokesperson on the whole issue of fines. It was in the context of what I think has not been a successful blitz. She said this: \u201CFines don\u2019t go away. They are a justice sanction aimed at deterring unacceptable behaviour and are never remitted for reasons of age of the fine or expediency.\u201D Yet we have seen some remarkable and, in my view, wholly wrong decisions of the courts to remit significant amounts of money. In April of 2005 an Upper Hutt resident, Nathan Bentley, had $73,000 in traffic fines wiped. There have been other cases where there have been similar significant write-offs. I instance the case of a Hamilton judge, Anne McAloon, who let another offender, Aaron Pace, off paying a $31,352 debt for traffic offences. Quite clearly, the courts need direction from Parliament, or from the Minister perhaps, to deal much more effectively with the whole issue of fines. As we look around New Zealand we see significant errors of administration and a lack of will to deal with what is a mounting problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo hope for this legislation has been, unfortunately, dashed. We see here proposals to amend nine Acts: the Crimes Act, the Customs and Excise Act, the District Courts Act, the Immigration Act, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act, the Privacy Act, the Sentencing Act, the Summary Proceedings Act, and the Tax Administration Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226596037316ae4a41a42d8eb29ee97762\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Nine long debates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c30353c94b64725b380f95a9f89ac8f\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Quite right, because this bill is in multiple parts. So we will be here, I am sure, for many days in a 10-part debate on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESentiments are fine but action is so much better. As Mr Connell said when he was speaking on this bill, there are mechanisms available that could have been utilised to make huge gains. I am speaking, of course, of the Advance Passenger Processing system for outgoing flights. That system enables an early-warning signal to be given to airline staff to stop or delay a passenger from boarding a flight. The airline staff will not know the reason for the warning. The early warning allows the airline to prevent luggage from being loaded on to the plane until it is clear that the person is free to board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is a comment by the Law and Order Committee in its report back on this bill that I think is worth underscoring, and it indicates the lack of will of this committee to grapple with the problems that arise. It is under a heading \u201CTargeting New Zealand fine defaulters in Australia\u201D. The commentary states: \u201CThe bill does not provide for a reciprocal information-sharing policy with Australia. We continue to have an ongoing interest in the ministry\u2019s efforts to target New Zealand fine defaulters \u2026 especially in Australia.\u201D In the context of our closer economic relationship with Australia, this is an issue that should be given priority. It is not the difficult issue that the committee asserts it is. I think it is sad that where there was an opportunity to produce real gains, as I have said, that opportunity was simply not taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u00223167d9f5b99a460c8ae95429b54f6de8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223167d9f5b99a460c8ae95429b54f6de8\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E This is an interesting debate. If one was listening to this debate, one would think that the Opposition parties might have taken their opportunity in the Law and Order Committee to do the work that they get paid for by the taxpayer. They have all stood up and said: Woe is me, this bill doesn\u2019t go far enough. It\u2019s not tough enough. We want to send it back for another go.\u201D Well, I read the commentary on the bill from the select committee. Who is on that select committee? The members are Martin Gallagher, a very good chair, Marc Alexander, the deputy chair and a very conscientious man, Georgina Beyer, Brian Connell of the National Party, Ann Hartley, Mahara Okeroa, Ron Mark, and the Hon Tony Ryall. I read the committee\u2019s membership, and I looked for the minority report that stated the Opposition disagreed with this bill because it did not go hard enough and tough enough, and did not do enough. What did I find? Nothing\u2014absolutely nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022695fcadfce4943c187b5cf0ccb49ea3f\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: They are lazy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222adf8e5ba5f84d079c6da05214ef9359\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, either the Opposition members are lazy or they do not know how to do their jobs. They are still learning on the job, and expect to be paid full wages. They still expect to be paid full wages, yet they did nothing\u2014absolutely nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe failure to provide a minority report was not because the Opposition members on the committee had insufficient time. The public came along and gave 1 hour and 9 minutes of evidence. That committee considered the submissions for 9 hours and 2 minutes. I think the 2 minutes was probably what the Opposition members did, and the 9 hours was what the Government members did. Now the Opposition members whinge and moan, and come here to the House and say the bill is not tough enough. Well, who is going to take them seriously? Nobody could take them seriously. That is why they are the Opposition\u2014because they are too lazy, too incompetent, and too hopeless to have actually done the job in the select committee that they said needed to be done. Who stopped them? Did anybody say that no, they could not do that? Did anybody from the Opposition say that if they did not like the bill the way it was, they, as members of Parliament, could put a minority report in, even if they were voting for the bill? Even if a member is voting for a bill, he or she can say that it is not tough enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe Opposition members on that select committee need to take lessons from Maurice Williamson. He is on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which I chair, and he said he thought the Government had done a good job on a bill, but that National would go a little further than the Government, so it would put that in the report. Maybe Maurice Williamson needs to run a seminar for the Opposition members, to show them how to do the job properly, because I think they are hopeless, and so does the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis is a competent Government, which is doing an excellent job and saying to people who have broken the law that they will not get away with it. It is telling people they cannot go for their holidays to Australia and come back and get away with it any more, with a big fine owing. If they do not pay up, they will not be going. That is the simple truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8ef31de199c4671bdc34023de23db82\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what the bill states.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed5e76e806e4f5fb5a07de484fba9cc\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: That does not suit Tony Ryall\u2014no, no. Tony Ryall says he would not do anything, because when he was the Minister the size of the millions was only half the present amount. He sat back, took his salary, drove around the country, and pretended he was important, but he did nothing. He would do nothing again if the country ever gave him the chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dec69ef896514e81936ffb5128f41cc9\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: They won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222198168a68ab4ae5896b0c6f9242c771\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: People will not do that. This is good legislation from a good Minister, and it states to people that we are fixing the issue. Can we fix it? Yes we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a83937685ec54f10be29ddf39a4b3875\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a83937685ec54f10be29ddf39a4b3875\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table a report of a Mr Craig James Taylor, who had $42,259 wiped from his slate by Judge Moran. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225098b6193bee46dea8cc4dd968836058\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that report. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022927b2dbd29774de0856d925c82855930\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022927b2dbd29774de0856d925c82855930\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table a report of one, Dane Anthony Blake, aged 19, who had $22,000 wiped off his fines by Judge Moran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290301b3b677c497dbde13476ee7bc7ee\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that report. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00224052a8b0756e44919c0ed5cabf57a48b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224052a8b0756e44919c0ed5cabf57a48b\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table a document that shows that Howard Willis Case had $20,000 of his fines wiped off by Judge Moran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288fc71b4947a432abf09c2ab5f91bd60\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that report. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00229c5dad05e3bb41b6b623af6e0cf78f02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c5dad05e3bb41b6b623af6e0cf78f02\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to have a report that shows that Dennis Fishburne had $20,000 wiped off his fines by Judge Moran, in replacement for 100 hours\u2019 community work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d922c80a7bea4902ae80618b3ce56e2f\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that report. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc18b9dc74504a55848cb1d48a03344d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc18b9dc74504a55848cb1d48a03344d\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table a report showing that the fines of one Nathan Bentley of $73,000 were wiped by a District Court judge in the period around May 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7c1eb23da542c981ec952d95ed8b95\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022d397126c10f944f9b5f175c905d2f8b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d397126c10f944f9b5f175c905d2f8b4\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table a report that states that fines totalling $31,352 were written off by Hamilton judge Anne McAloon in or about May 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0d6cb35819435094b383a4dbeba7f3\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that report. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbf76df6f7aa4430801ac87518b3e71d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbf76df6f7aa4430801ac87518b3e71d\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table a report that shows that in 1 day in Greymouth Judge Moran wiped $109,000 in fines for four young men.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022888ea2b3645e48f189d618da5127ff4b\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that report. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022d84ea151ef8747d78139e227af450985\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d84ea151ef8747d78139e227af450985\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Over there in the Opposition parties is Tony Ryall acting like Captain Mainwaring, and Ron Mark from New Zealand First is like Colonel Klink: \u201CI know nothing.\u201D They are absolutely full of wind, bluff, and bluster. They are what one could refer to as \u201Cgonnas\u201D: \u201CI\u2019m \u2018gonna\u2019 do this, and I\u2019m \u2018gonna\u2019 do that, but when I had the opportunity, what did I do? I did nothing.\u201D The irony of the situation is that when those Tories were in Government for those 9 long years, they attacked Housing New Zealand tenants at the airport and at the border when they were going overseas for the first and only time. One of my constituents only ever left the country because her family paid for her, and she left New Zealand with NZ$20 in her pocket and she was stopped at the border and advised that her rent would go up for the 2 weeks she was away, because she would not be occupying her Housing New Zealand property. Those mean, horrible bullies attacked defenceless Housing New Zealand tenants\u2014the poorest people in New Zealand\u2014but did nothing about fines defaulters. They left them alone. It just shows what bullies they are, and God forbid they should ever get the opportunity to be bullies again! However, the people of New Zealand are far too intelligent to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill, and a positive aspect of it is that victims are more likely to get reparation. This is an excellent bill by a hard-working and competent Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u0022e88f591979454b7b818de5a67252d16b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e88f591979454b7b818de5a67252d16b\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I could not hear very well and I was wondering whether the member who has just resumed her seat said \u201Ca $1 billion Kyoto stuff-up\u201D somewhere in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef87ab5e90804dad800128dab737501f\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b82b4c91dc4401d8a7412a2d60fa5b0\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00228ab246f6c24b4b11a01faa7aed17bb7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ab246f6c24b4b11a01faa7aed17bb7a\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill that it take the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225bf53208986f46e7b0aac255ed13d1ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; Green Party 9; United Future 5; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4e94d89e2cb4b25838204f7c2aad71f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7503ca12e1e4ec7ad5f2356bc2ff4bd\u0022\u003EPart 1  Crimes Act 1961\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002258fcedd36f4c453e953e3d0c8e10648c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258fcedd36f4c453e953e3d0c8e10648c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill is in respect of amendments to the Crimes Act of 1961. The principal change proposed in this legislation is to allow bailiffs to execute warrants to collect money owed by fines defaulters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe heard from Mr Gosche earlier along the lines that if a person who owed a fine tried to leave by plane, that person would be stopped and not allowed to board the plane. That might be what the Minister for Courts told his caucus, but I will tell Mr Gosche what the actual fact of the matter is. It is in respect of the ability to execute warrants under clause 4. The Government introduced a bill that stated that if a person owed $10,000 in fines, and a warrant had been issued for his or her arrest, that person could be stopped at the airport. The pressure of the Opposition in the select committee got that amount lowered, but the Government would agree only to drop it down to $5,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat Mr Gosche needs to know is the only people who can be stopped at an airport under this bill are people who owe $5,000 of debt and have a warrant for their arrest. There are about 500 people in the country who fit that category who have a warrant out for their arrest. The Government\u2019s own advisers estimate that they will stop 117 people\u2014that is, they will stop one fines defaulter every 3 days\u2014and those defaulters may be prevented from getting on the plane if they do not pay their fines. The Ministry of Justice officials advised us that $1.5 million would be collected because of this bill. So Mr Gosche was wrong in respect of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis provision allows for bailiffs\u2014obviously, someone stationed at the court\u2014to execute the warrant and require someone to pay his or her fines. The level of fines owed is, indeed, a considerable concern to all. At the beginning of 2000 the debt was under $300 million; today our estimate has that debt at $650 million, and it is growing exponentially. It is vital that we stop these fines defaulters. We know from official information provided by the Government that not very many people will be affected by this bill. Even though we are giving bailiffs this power under clause 4, it will be exercised very sparingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Opposition will be moving amendments in the Committee stage to lower the threshold. We want this Committee to focus seriously on whether we should be limiting this measure to people who have arrest warrants out on them. We raised that at the select committee, and the Government said it could not do it because it thought it was administratively burdensome. Why can there not be a provision in this bill that allows the Government of the day, when the system is up and running, to remove that requirement for an arrest warrant? Why can we not have that amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ELet us just go through the numbers again. When the bill was introduced by the Government the officials said it would affect 35 people a year. I wrote it down when they said it\u201435 people per annum. With the amendments made to this bill to have it catch fines defaulters with arrest warrants who owe over $5,000, the estimated number is 117 people. The officials said that the estimated full benefit of fines enforcement in this bill would be $1.5 million. I do not know whether that is the estimated amount of fines recovery, or whether it is just the value of the fines owed by the 117 people who will be stopped from leaving. Maybe the Minister could answer that question. Is the $1.5 million that the officials told the select committee would be the estimated full benefit of this bill the amount of collections that can be expected as a result of it, or the total value of the fines owed by the estimated 117 people who will be stopped from leaving by this legislation? National members think that is something the Government should answer, because the mountain of growing debt is incredible. As I said, we estimate that it will have grown to $650 million by the end of this financial year, and we estimate that the amount that is overdue is probably close to $350 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for the role of bailiffs, but it also looks at the issue of reparation. The second part of the bill, which will be debated a little later on, deals with providing name and address information of people who owe over $1,000, so that the courts collection staff can go after them, but it does state that if people owe reparation, there is no threshold in terms of that information being made available. What is worrying is that the proportion of reparations being collected, for all collections made by the collections unit, is dropping. There seems to be less focus on collecting reparations, because the proportion of reparation receipts to total receipts collected by the collections unit of the Ministry of Justice is dropping, and we are concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis bill is a missed opportunity. We think the Government could have gone a lot further, and we will be moving amendments, which we hope the Government will support, to allow that to happen. Let us just go through the numbers again. This so-called get-tough bill was introduced into Parliament, and the Government\u2019s own advisers said that the bill as introduced would have seen it catch 35 fines defaulters each year. With the amendments that the Opposition encouraged the Government to make at the select committee, we squeezed it up to 117 people per annum\u2014one every 3 days\u2014and the Government did not really want to do even that. The officials\u2019 words were that the estimated full benefit of the bill for fines enforcement is $1.5 million. Is that $1.5 million the value of the fines owed by those 117 people that this bill will stop, or is it the amount of money the Government expects to collect from them? We think that goes to the heart of whether the Government has acted as it should have with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe way in which the bill will work is that if someone turns up at the airport who is in the computer system as being one of those few fines defaulters with a fine over $5,000 and with an arrest warrant issued against him or her, that person will then be taken to the side and dealt with. If those people say that they have an arrangement, or that it is a case of mistaken identity, the presumption will be that the police will let them carry on. If someone does admit to being the person who owes the money, and if he or she does not have an arrangement in place, that person will deal with a courts collection officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat will happen if people say: \u201CYes, I am going to make a down payment of $20, and I will keep paying it off.\u201D, they leave on the plane, and they do not pay it off? What will happen there? What is to prevent people from saying they are going to make an arrangement, paying a couple of hundred dollars, and off they go? They still owe the debt, and they still have an airline ticket that they paid for with money they could have put towards their fine. What will happen there? Maybe the Minister could take a call to explain to us what will happen if a fines defaulter for whom there is an arrest warrant makes a part-payment of the fine; will that person be allowed to continue on his or her flight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDuring this debate the combined Opposition parties will make this point: the Government is saying that this measure will stop fines defaulters from getting on to planes. That is what the advertising campaign will be all about. We will be moving on to that, because this is more about the advertising campaign than the substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226efe60df83554b7dba159f9bfae4fa5e\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: How much will the advertising campaign be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeb6aabaf8874fa69987f091f43c4e6a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: We will be talking about that later on. This is all about an advertising campaign to give the impression that everybody who has a fine will be stopped at the airport and prevented from going overseas. Well, the fact is even the Government\u2019s advisers have said that 117 people will be caught.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022143ff636f41447afaa8dcbdcc04fb386\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022143ff636f41447afaa8dcbdcc04fb386\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a couple of points, but first I will clarify a mistaken belief of the Opposition that has been repeated a couple of times. I have heard a couple of Opposition speakers say that the Ministry of Justice\u2014the courts department and its collections unit\u2014cannot data match with the Ministry of Social Development and the Inland Revenue Department, and that they will be moving amendments. I say to those members that they do it now, they do it regularly, and they do it thoroughly. Let us not be mistaken about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EMy second point is about the process. I say to the Opposition that this has been an evolving process. When the bill was first mooted 4 or 5 years ago, there was very little data information available on people who were about to travel, because it was not collected. People could simply turn up to a ticketing centre, get a ticket, and climb on a plane within 2 hours and be gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e40d0d62fe96458f8600241fbefc80ae\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s changed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022798a0f3b63bd43caa10193400d4e790e\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: What has changed is advance passenger information. Not only do airlines have to give us information in advance about people coming into the country, airlines are having to give information in advance of people going out. So we now have knowledge of who is coming through airports before and after their flights. When the bill was first conceived, the airlines made the point that when people front up, they have no idea whether those people are on the Customs Service watch list because they have not gone through customs and they and their bags are treated as they normally would be. If the Customs Service was then going to hold someone, it would have to de-van the whole plane to get that person\u2019s bags off, which would be a great inconvenience to the travelling public and would incur huge extra costs because, as anybody who has been in the airline industry knows, if a plane takes off late it lands late, and there are big costs that go with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENow, things have changed. People now have to buy their tickets in advance and the systems are being integrated. So when the airline has ticket information, it then has to be, as advance passenger information, put into the system of either or both the Customs Service and the Immigration Service. So as a result of the courts\u2014the Ministry of Justice\u2014being able to load on to those systems those whom they are interested in, the flag can come up much more quickly. By the time any such people front to the counter, it is known that they are of interest and their bags can be set aside and thee matter can be dealt with much more easily. That is a significant advance that gives us greater ability to deal with these issues. Some procedural issues will be associated with that, and we have to do these things with the cooperation of the airlines and the travelling public. When the members of the Law and Order Committee said that the figures should be lowered, the technology and the systems had moved on and we were able to comfortably say that, yes, we can do that. I think that is a good thing. I support it wholeheartedly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second thing the select committee did was to set the level at $5,000 automatically, but the bill was set up so that it can be changed by Order in Council to be lowered over time. As the systems bed in and prove workable, we can move very quickly to change that level. I support that provision, as well. I say, in response to Tony Ryall\u2019s point, that there is zero limit on reparation, although he did not particularly highlight that fact. Before people can leave the country they have to pay any reparation due. Reparation can be awarded for personal reasons or commercial reasons. Very often people think of reparation in terms of damage done to the victim of a crime, but approximately half of all reparation involves a commercial loss\u2014for example, an insurance company might have a claim against it. So half is for personal reasons and half for commercial reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228046b408e9d4567b207d8017b4f6d26\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: So that\u2019s not important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d52ab8b5feaf42da977942e88f136ba5\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not saying it is not important. I am just saying that people quite often think of reparation in terms of personal injury or personal tragedy, and of course that is very important, but a commercial loss is also important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EMr Ryall is making some play of the fact that there is a rise in the number of fines being issued. The principal driver of that has not been court-imposed fines, as Mr Worth indicated. The number of court-imposed fines has been relatively stable. It has been climbing slightly over time, but is relatively stable. The rise in the number of infringement fees being issued is driven principally by the police infringement programme, which is aimed at reducing speed and reducing the number of road deaths. In fact, there are over 100 people alive today who would not be if there not been that focus on lowering speed. The police are not apologetic about that. The Opposition does not like the campaign against speed. It is saying it is prepared to see 100 families sit down at Christmas without one of their family members because the family member has passed away due to a road accident. The Opposition is prepared to blight another 100 families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Government has played a huge role in increasing the amount of fines being collected. We inherited quite a complicated situation when we came into Government. We have introduced a call centre for the public. We have extended the hours, from early in the morning to late at night. We have doubled the time they operate. We have some of the most advanced technology in the world. We have collected record amounts, year on year, of overdue fines. No one can criticise us on that. We collected $40 million in one year and $25 million in another. Those are big sums, and there is a lot more money to be collected from people who are under an obligation to pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ESome members say this bill does not go far enough, and the point I make to those members is that I accept there is a fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is our infringement system. It is old, out of date, and creaky. In fact, we have over 80 issuing authorities who\u2014[Interruption] The court system, I say to the member, is creaky and out of date, and it has not been reviewed in about 30 years. It is inefficient in the way it collects fines, and there is a long delay from the time the fine is issued\u2014that is, over 3 months\u2014until it is up for enforcement by a court. Another problem with the court system is that when the police issue, for example, an infringement for a warrant of fitness offence or an outstanding registration, the individual cannot pay it off on a \u201Cpay as you go\u201D basis then and there. The person has to go through the system and get to the court process before he or she can be granted time to pay. I think we would all say that that is nuts. We need to overhaul that system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAlso, we need quicker supervision and better management of it. No one knows\u2014I have asked on several occasions\u2014how much an individual owes, because no one has complete oversight of the system. So for 3 months there is almost a blanket. No one can tell how much is in the system against a name\u2014for example, Rick Barker or Ron Mark. I think that is a fundamental flaw. Therefore, an overhaul of the infringement system is long overdue. I am very pleased that we will be announcing some process on that in the next few months, and I am sure the Opposition parties will be delighted to have a look at it and add their tuppence worth to try to help. This will be very good work, and I am sure they will do their best. This bill is good legislation and I look forward to the Opposition\u2019s support. I accept that the bill could have gone further in some areas but that is subject to a wider review of the infringement process, which this Government will be doing some time in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222953597317a2470da222e78c38474053\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: We are dealing with the bill part by part. The parts are quite specific and mostly refer to relevant Acts. If members would be conscious of that, it would be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022495e325d142f433ca0877fb0c022d794\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022495e325d142f433ca0877fb0c022d794\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge your guidance, Mr Chairperson, but, given that the debate has been opened up widely by the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rick Barker, and because unfortunately I will not be here after 2 o\u2019clock to give the Minister any further guidance, I intend just to follow his line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EFirstly, the Minister said that the measures that have been taken at airports are \u201Cas much as they can do right now\u201D. He admitted that. I must say it is good to hear that, and I would love to have heard it admitted in question time when we asked about those problems some time back. The Minister also admitted that the Government will have to come back to the House with another amendment bill to amend all those Acts\u2014the Crimes Act, the Customs and Excise Act, etc\u2014and that we will be addressing this legislation again. I ask the Minister then why the Government did not agree to my motion, put earlier today, which would have meant that the bill went back to the Law and Order Committee so we could get stuck in and tidy it up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ELet me give the Minister some guidance. This bill would have been far more effective if the Government had recognised one thing. Having bailiffs stopping people at airports, as Part 1 allows, is the very last thing we should be doing to collect those overdue, unpaid fines. The very first thing, the most important thing, which is not included in the bill, is giving the Ministry of Justice through the courts carte blanche access to Inland Revenue Department records.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAt the select committee we asked the officials about that, and the guidance we had was that the Government would not be receptive to such wide and far-reaching legislation, which would impinge upon the Privacy Act. The Government itself is the handicap. The officials quite clearly were gleeful at suggestions from the Opposition that the Ministry of Justice should be given that ability. But, no, the Government sees more importance in strengthening the Privacy Act than in collecting $600 million worth of outstanding fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe very last thing we should be doing is stopping people at airports. If our systems were robust, if the bailiffs had the same investigative capability as the Inland Revenue Department or even Baycorp, and if the courts, on finding that an offender had missed one payment, were able to go straight into the computers of the Inland Revenue Department or Work and Income to find the person\u2014whether he or she was receiving a benefit or the dole, where the cheques were being posted to, and which account they were being credited into\u2014they would have that person by the shorts within seconds. But this legislation does not do that. Instead we are focusing on trying to catch people at airports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWell, we agree: anyone who is trying to have a holiday in Hawaii but who has $5,000 worth of outstanding debts, should not be allowed to leave for Hawaii. We are pleased that the Government has taken that on board. But we think the threshold is too low\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dedb3a9e7a147feaa5a5ca1d9d32053\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: You have to have an arrest warrant!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258fef9719661466d9fef88792dc144e3\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: They have to have an arrest warrant. The point is that the failure is occurring at the very front end of the system. Members should look at the answers I got from the Ministry of Justice on 28 May 2003 when I asked how many people had up to $5,000 outstanding. The answer was 199,458 people. So nearly 200,000 people, as at 28 May 2003, had outstanding fines of up to $5,000. The number of people owing fines between $5,000 and $10,000 was 1,903. How could we possibly allow such a system to exist? But it has happened, and I say to the Minister that it is no good throwing the issue back at the Opposition and saying that National had had 9 long years to do something. This Government has had 15 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002243e27cea70c7494abf2625556e2dae73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243e27cea70c7494abf2625556e2dae73\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 deals with the execution of warrants, but I do not think the provision will keep the bailiff very busy. Any legislation whereby there is a chance that someone will be intercepted one day in three, will hardly act as a disincentive for a significant number of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn the lunch break I went over some submissions made to the Law and Order Committee, and looked at some advice from the officials. I point out that the National Party\u2019s position has always been that if people owe money to the courts, they pay it. We have always said that if people can afford international travel, they can afford to pay their fines. In the select committee we asked the officials to have a look at lowering the monetary threshold from $5,000 to $1,000 of fines owing, as a starting point. That initiative came from members of the National Party. Our concern was what the cost-benefit would be. I think members might be interested to hear what we were told. The officials said that a full cost-benefit analysis was carried out only in relation to the current proposal\u2014that is, that one person would be stopped every 3 days. That number is the equivalent of people who had a warrant for arrest and owed fines of $5,000 or more. The officials estimated that the proposal would provide the opportunity to resolve approximately $1.5 million of court-imposed fines, reparation orders, and infringement fees each year\u2014charges that would otherwise not be resolved. I want to put that amount in context. Outstanding fines are now in excess of $650 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a8cbcff03fb482296ab7db0feef9ca3\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228832e8ebf86440c69e2ffc6498e53fe4\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: It is $650 million. That fact was presented to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e90655c7a04c4e8cafd4da9ba9bc2112\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What was that fact?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c4f20f36166484784f5ed0dad166aaf\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: There are outstanding fines of $650 million\u2014actually, I stand corrected. It is not $650 million. The facts at that point were that there was just over $500 million of outstanding fines. The estimate is now $650 million. The amounts are big. We were told at the select committee that the figure was substantial. If we think that through, it shows that the Labour Government, having understood the scope of the problem, is insisting on a regime that will collect only $1.5 million of outstanding fines. That is about a quarter of 1 percent of the outstanding amounts. Members of the House and members of the public who are listening across New Zealand will wonder just how serious the Government is about trying to capture those people who have outstanding fines, when this is the best it can do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe officials also provided this advice: \u201CIn addition, there is an anticipated increase of $1 million in collections of fines as a result of enhanced voluntary compliance arising from publicity surrounding the initiative.\u201D So there we have it. We have people who thumb their nose at authorities, who continually move addresses, and do not give a damn whether they owe $5, $500, $5,000, or, in some cases, as much as $50,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cac500ad4c974fc68818d508a50f695f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cac500ad4c974fc68818d508a50f695f\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 1, which enables information to be given to the Customs Service. When we look at the commentary on the bill and the statements made by the Minister, as I understand it the situation is that about $650 million is now owed in fines. Of course, everyone agrees that that is an outrage. As Mr Connell said, if people have enough money to be able to afford to go on a trip to Aussie they should have enough money to be able to pay their fines. The logical thing is to swap the information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EBut there is another rule that people, when passing laws, think of. It is called the law of unintended consequences. I ask members whether we really want to do what we are doing. I would also like to know from the Minister whether this proposal is being put to us by the Australians. What is the effect of this measure? The effect is that ratbags, people who owe large sums of money, will quickly learn that if they leave the country they will get arrested. Some will decide to go, but most will decide to stay. I understand that every week 700 New Zealanders go to Australia, and the number will probably drop to about 670 as a result of this measure. Thirty ratbags who would otherwise have left New Zealand and been a problem to Australia, will stay here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI want to know whether any cost-benefit analysis has been done on this. Although we will collect a few fines\u2014not many\u2014those people will be arrested and we will have to put them in jail, and all the rest of it. The real problem is that amongst the ratbags will be the people who commit crime. As bad as crime is, about 90 percent of all crime in New Zealand is committed by fewer than 5 percent of the population. We are passing a bill to guarantee that that 5 percent stay in this country. I am not sure that this bill withstands any cost-benefit analysis at all. I just raise this issue and say to the Committee that I am not sure this was the smartest measure\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance is shaking his head. But if he thinks about it, the Australian Government must be very pleased indeed to hear about this measure. It guarantees the quality of the people we are exporting to Australia, who already have better qualifications than the average population, and they can now guarantee that they have a crime-free record. The reason I raise this is that I do not think the logic of the Government\u2019s crime policies stands up at all. We ought to be asking ourselves questions such as, how did the amount of fines owing ever get to $650 million? Just having this measure, the effect of which is to make sure that ratbags, criminals, and the like, who owe more than $5,000 in fines, and it is now down to $1,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022699aa4bc4e2e441ea1b55228351dc2ec\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: 117 a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab5b52ef66ce4a78a286a3bfbe84db4a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: It is 117 a year. If it is 117, why is the whole Parliament so keen to keep them here? When we look at them, they are bad repeat offenders. In fact, they have to be, to have that number of fines. I would like to hear from the next member: where is the great advantage to New Zealand in keeping these people here? I would not mind if we just switched this information to customs, and when those people come back to New Zealand we can then charge them. That would encourage them to stay, after having left New Zealand. But that is not how it will be done. I understand that the penalties are on the people who are leaving New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI do not know whether anyone in the Government thought about that before this bill was introduced. [Interruption] Members are suggesting that they did not. Well, now that they have, perhaps they might like to rethink it and ask why we do not do some sort of proper cost-benefit analysis before we bring up a measure of this sort. I understand that the Government thinks it is going to raise very little money. In fact, all it will do is discourage people from leaving the country. If people are going to leave the country, surely we should select who we want to go. This measure seems to me to guarantee that we will continue to lose the best people, and the worst will stay. I would like to know whether any Government members have thought about that. If they have, where is the logic? Where is the compelling national interest in keeping fine defaulters in New Zealand, so that they can continue breaking the law and continue not paying their fines, because everyone accepts that they will do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u002209f0cdf9899c45e1861a8749e61a7f42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209f0cdf9899c45e1861a8749e61a7f42\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to address Part 1 of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill. I would like to pick up on the point that the Hon Richard Prebble has come up with. It is quite a novel interpretation, which I had not thought of before. The member makes a very good point. We may not want to keep those 117 people here at all. I was under the impression that we could nab them when they come back into the country, but perhaps the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, would like to take a call on that to say whether that is true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that the number \u201C117\u201D has been bandied around. For the life of me, I cannot remember, during the select committee process, where that figure was derived from. It was simply an estimate, but what was the estimate based on? Was there any experiential basis overseas where this sort of legislation has had effect from which they came up with this number, or\u2014as is probably the case\u2014has it simply been plucked out of thin air just to satisfy a desire to put a numerical value on something that is unquantifiable? It would also be interesting to see what the threshold movement would be if it went lower than it is currently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EClause 4, \u201CWarrant to collect fine or other sum of money ordered to be paid\u201D, amends the principal Act to include a bailiff, a deputy bailiff, or a person acting as a bailiff. It is a pretty sensible measure to expand the number of people who can access and utilise this legislation. I am also quite happy to hear from the Minister that the Order in Council to lower the amount owed, either in fines or in reparation, is a possibility. It would be great if there were an intention to do that, but I do not see that there is any huge desire to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe other point I would like to make regarding that is the basis on which the Government will alter the threshold. Will it even, in fact, raise it if it becomes too cumbersome? If those 117 people become such a burdensome chore for the Government, will it raise the amount? Does it go both ways? It seems to me, though, that the whole point of having legislation like this is that it is for the victims and the law abiding. So in a sense, thresholds ought not to be much of a consideration. It is the interests of victims that should dictate the threshold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI understand that one needs to test new technology. We need to test the efficacy of the kind of legislation we put into place, in case there are huge expenses and delays that occur as a result, but once we know that it is working and that there are not any delays, we should lower the threshold in the interests of the assertion of law, of victims\u2019 rights, and of justice. I would like the Minister to take a call on that, in order to hear whether that is the case. Nothing that I have read states that the basis of the threshold level will be changed depending on the interests of victims, rather than the usefulness to the Government in being able to obtain some extra funds when it sees the potential for doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb84d653f2ee46038b1feaaba06d56fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb84d653f2ee46038b1feaaba06d56fd\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220045ccb71197444bb169b3207ce62905\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; Green Party 8; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 39\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000417\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d593d5e523f4dfabb8956428484bc07\u0022\u003EPart 2  Customs and Excise Act 1996\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229bb1f4f0ca2e4389824e609047810906\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bb1f4f0ca2e4389824e609047810906\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I ask the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, to look at Supplementary Order Paper 369 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker. There are proposed changes on that to the Crimes Act, which is what we have just debated in Part 1. I would be happy to entertain any changes that may be necessary there, but I think he will find that there is a Supplementary Order Paper with amendments to Part 1 and we did not vote on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EPart 2 puts in place the information-sharing regime. There are quite considerable changes being proposed in this bill with respect to information sharing, and I have put forward a number of amendments on that. Part 2 allows the Ministry of Justice to notify other agencies that people are specified fines defaulters. Members will recall that those are the people whom the system is designed to ensnare. The Government gives the impression\u2014as it certainly plans to give in its advertising campaign, I am sure\u2014that people who owe fines will be stopped at the airports. In fact, the number who will be stopped is very small. It is not people who owe $5,000 worth of fines, nor is it people who owe reparation. It is people who owe $5,000 worth of fines and have an arrest warrant, and people who owe reparation of any amount and have an arrest warrant. The officials said that was about 500 people in total, according to the reports we have here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ELet me go through who will be targeted by this elaborate information-sharing regime. Originally we were advised by Ministry of Justice officials that the bill, as introduced by the Minister, would catch about 35 serious fines defaulters a year. With the changes to the bill made as a result of pressure from the Opposition, that has grown to 117 serious fines defaulters a year, and the Government expects to collect $1.5 million from them. That is one fines defaulter every 3 days. I think the Government could go a lot further than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Minister has tabled Supplementary Order Paper 370 in his name, and it is quite extensive. There are very significant changes in that Supplementary Order Paper, and they have not gone before the Law and Order Committee. I want to look at the amendment to clause 7 to insert new section 280F. Those are the rules that will allow the Customs Service to supply information concerning specified fines defaulters to the Chief Executive of the Department of Labour. That, in itself, needs further explanation from the Minister. It allows the chief executive of customs to supply the Chief Executive of the Department of Labour with information about specified fines defaulters, and that information can then be passed on to the Ministry of Justice. Is that not correct? Why did the Government not put that in the original bill? It is a very obvious question. It is something new. It has not gone to the select committee, and the public has not had a chance to talk about whether customs information should be made available to the Immigration Service, which would then make it available to the Ministry of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224142f5208a884b7ba1aeb4a81df63293\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273f2de24d9ee43bf933bdb601c3f471f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: We think it should, but we wonder why the public of New Zealand was not entitled to make any submissions on that provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E We want to know why the Government would limit the amount of information about serious fines defaulters that is passed to the Chief Executive of the Department of Labour. There is no provision for any other information the Customs Service has that may identify a fines defaulter to be passed on. The Government is limiting it to a person\u2019s name, date of birth, sex, passport number, and notice that that person is a specified fines defaulter. What if the Customs Service has any other information that may identify a person, such as an address or the name of an employer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b7a45a2e8f47cc9ffef1407fcf2a58\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: What about an IRD number?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022323e5cf6d3534d2aa0a11348effe292c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is dealt with later on\u2014we will deal with that in the debate on Part 9. Why is that extra information not being allowed to be sent forward? If we are serious, as the Minister says, why do we not have a provision that all the information the Customs Service may have on a specified fines defaulter should be made available to the system, in order to locate that person? What if the Customs Service has an invoice, a packing slip, or a customs declaration that has the person\u2019s name and address on it? Does this bill provide for the Customs Service to provide the Chief Executive of the Department of Labour with that information? No. What if the Customs Service gets some additional information at the airport that may help to identify a fines defaulter? Why will that not be passed on? We are limiting the information that can be provided to catch those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00222bb1afe93be84c288535d0e2c18b3a19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bb1afe93be84c288535d0e2c18b3a19\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this most important debate on the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill. Progress is slow, and understandably so, because of the turgidity and complexity of the provisions in this bill, which have so much to say and from which so much seems to be omitted that would otherwise constitute good practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI start by dealing with an issue that the Hon Tony Ryall dealt with touching on Supplementary Order Paper 370. I believe that the comments made by Mr Ryall warrant some reinforcement. The first comment he made was that the Supplementary Order Paper has come late in the day. That is assuredly so against the background of a bill that was introduced on 14 May 2003. It had its first reading on 19 June 2003, and then went off to the Law and Order Committee and there languished for several years. It is a wholly unsatisfactory circumstance that with all the time for mature reflection and consideration of this bill, this Supplementary Order Paper from the Government has come so late and, as Mr Ryall said, with no opportunity at all for public input on what are clearly critical matters. They are critical matters because the whole question of information and data matching is sensitive. Although a robust attitude should be taken toward such issues when we are talking about the evasion of the criminal law, nevertheless care is also required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper, as it deals with this part, makes some changes of particular relevance. The explanatory note to the Supplementary Order Paper states: \u201CThe amendments to clause 7 relate to a sub-category of serious fines defaulters (referred to as \u201Cspecified fines defaulters\u201D) who are likely to be intercepted at an airport or a seaport in relation to their unpaid fines. These are persons who owe $5,000 or more in unpaid fines (not including infringement fines) or any amount of reparation, and for whom there is a warrant to arrest. There is provision for the amount of $5,000 to be changed by Order in Council.\u201D I argue that that threshold of $5,000 has been set too high, and that there is an immediate justification for a lower threshold than that fixed here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESecond, the Supplementary Order Paper proposes to add new section 280F to the Customs and Excise Act. That section provides that the Chief Executive of the Customs Service may supply information concerning specified fines defaulters to the Chief Executive of the Department of Labour. There are associated amendments to clause 15 that insert new section 141AG into the Immigration Act, which members of this Parliament are all too familiar with. Those amendments authorise the Customs Service and the Immigration Service to give airlines and other carriers information about the identity of specified fines defaulters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the course of this Committee stage the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, has sought\u2014and I give him credit for this\u2014vainly and in vain to respond to particular issues as they have arisen. One of the most interesting responses that he gave was to acknowledge in his candid and frank way that there are significant gaps in this legislation. He identified the fact that there are real issues around the administration of the infringement notices regime and that those issues would be visited in the life of this present Government. I doubt that that is so, because this is a dying Government that has only weeks to run. The chance of this Government ever tackling those significant issues is, I am sure, a forlorn and futile one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBut they are important issues, and it is in this particular part that one might have seen, given the readiness of the Government to advance at very late notice Supplementary Order Paper changes, the sort of changes that the Minister has said are clearly required. I say that it is simply unsatisfactory, when a bill has been so long in its gestation, for the Minister to say to us and to listeners that the reality is that this legislation is in some respects both incomplete and imperfect. If I may, I would like to deal with the interpretation provisions in the part, and seek that the Minister comment on certain aspects of those interpretation provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebb1af0f50d74a6ea866635748dead83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebb1af0f50d74a6ea866635748dead83\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to follow on from my learned colleague, who has given me quite a bit of new material to use in this debate. I start by saying that in an earlier debate today on an issue that is similar, in some ways, to what is happening here\u2014the whole issue of trying to protect New Zealand\u2019s integrity and defence, and, now, its financial base, as it were, in terms of trying to get back the fines that people are failing to pay\u2014a member of New Zealand First, Jim Peters, raised an interesting point. He said that a National Party member had just spoken about a red Green member, and had used the terms \u201Chard left\u201D and \u201Cred\u201D in a way that is no longer relevant today, given that we are trying to enhance our trade with China and other such places that would otherwise, in a time gone by, have been described as very red. I accept that the honourable member, who is a former headmaster\u2014a very good one, I hasten to add, and one who would, if he were to go back to that profession, earn a lot more money under National Party policy than he did in the past under the Government\u2014is partly right. I accept that Jim Peters\u2019 assertion is partly right. But in my comments I was trying to demonstrate the historic meaning of \u201Cred\u201D\u2014that is, those hard left, Russian kind of Stalinists that we seem to be debating more and more in this Parliament as we move closer and closer to the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHere is another example of that kind of approach. We have before us a bill that is, on the surface, quite a good idea: to get those who are not paying their fines to do so. I am led to believe that there is somewhere in the order of $600 million or more in outstanding, unpaid fines. The Government is introducing various clauses to deal with that. In particular, Part 2 gives the Customs and Excise Act 1996 a bit of a revamp, so that customs officials at the airport can catch those crooks on the way through. We are playing with that, and maybe we will toughen it up. Then, when I look at some of the figures that have come out of the various official papers and at some of the comments my colleagues have made, I find that if we are totally successful in this measure, we will catch 117 people. That estimate was put forward during the development of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWho are those people? They are the people who have convictions. As the ACT member the Hon Richard Prebble said, they are crooks\u2014it is the crooks whom we are going to hold on to. We are losing 650 or 700 New Zealanders a week to Australia. We will keep back 117 of them per year, and those will be the crooks. We want to keep them here. It is a classic example of the sort of red policy that we talked about when we discussed the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI am told that if we do manage to catch those crooks at the border, that will gain the Government $1.5 million out of the $600-plus million that is already being lost through unpaid fines that the courts are writing off\u2014at the rate, I am told, of about $40 million a year\u2014because they decide that it is a lost cause and they will not follow it up. How does that compare with the treatment of poor old \u201CJoe Hard-worker\u201D out there, who may, though some mistake or other, fill in his tax return form slightly incorrectly? What kinds of penalties would be imposed on him, and what kinds of assets would be seized from him, if he were to make such a mistake? The only conclusion I can come to is that once again our very left Government, which is moving further and further left and into the red, has decided that the way to get back at that limited number of people is to keep the crooks in New Zealand, and to allow the good, hard-working, decent citizens of New Zealand to be driven offshore because of the punitive policies the Government adopts towards them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI also ask the Minister, who is in the House and looking after this bill, why he has put in place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022219bc3e1a6f24999af19d50715d273f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022219bc3e1a6f24999af19d50715d273f6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am not a member of the Law and Order Committee, which analysed this bill, and although I am familiar with the broad thrust of its provisions, I am not over-familiar with the detail. I have been sitting listening to the speakers in this debate, and I have heard some interesting comments. The commentary on the bill states that as at 21 May 2004 unpaid fines totalled $572.97 million, of which $326.2 million was overdue. My colleagues tell me that the $572 million has gone up to $650 million, so one can conclude that the $326 million has gone up to something like $400 million in overdue fines whilst this bill has been before the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWhat is the Government doing? We are told that this bill will be administered in such a way as to pick up 117 defaulters per year at various airports. On top of that, if I have understood members correctly\u2014and I ask them to please tell me if I am wrong\u2014the judiciary is writing off $40 million a year. I take the Hon Richard Prebble\u2019s point about this $40 million a year. Would it not be more cost-effective to pay those people to leave the country\u2014to pay their way? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have been trying to keep abreast of the documents used by the select committee, and I have in front of me one from the Ministry of Justice about police resources for fines enforcement at airports, which states: \u201CThe police also estimate an additional 150 intercepts per annum could be absorbed into existing functions.\u201D I conclude that if the 117 goes up to 150, the police at their current staffing level will be at maximum capacity. Am I wrong? In other words, if the 117 rises to 151, we will need more police. So the taxpayer will pay more to keep in the country 151 people who are not paying millions of dollars in fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere must be a simpler way of addressing this issue. I hope the Minister is taking note. I do understand why there is nervousness about data matching and about telling Government organisations details about someone\u2019s personal background, but it would be very simple to make data matching part of the punishment, so that if one does not pay a fine by a stipulated date, all one\u2019s personal details will be forwarded on to all Government agencies. In other words, we could put it in the hands of the individual. If the individual does not want to have his personal information forwarded from the Customs Service to the Immigration Service, to the Ministry of Justice, to the Inland Revenue Department, to Work and Income New Zealand, and to wherever, then he pays his fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fb7e81e4f954a9da338430e255db958\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Why would we protect somebody who doesn\u2019t pay his fines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df28a9a2a2a4bd792426bffed731811\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. That is the point I am making. The member is quick on the uptake. I admire him. There has to be a simpler way. We are, as the member has just alluded to, giving more protection to people who do not pay their fines than we give to the normal, law-abiding New Zealand citizen who complies very largely with the totality of the laws of this land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis is a very weak provision. It might be a step forward, but it is nowhere near as big a step as it should be. I think the Minister said\u2014I listened to him earlier\u2014that it was Labour\u2019s intention\u2014provided it continues in Government\u2014to strengthen this provision in the not too distant future. I ask the Minister why he does not do it now. Why do we have to do things in more than one bite? Why does the Government not strengthen the whole thing the first time the matter comes up? Why are we pussyfooting around initially? [Interruption] The Minister of Finance is making some comment. He will get an opportunity to take a call and explain. I tell him that if Joe Public knew there were overdue fines to the extent of $400 million, he would be aghast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1e7e0dbb4804fb89bbcb538ae050c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1e7e0dbb4804fb89bbcb538ae050c8d\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00224c1b90831e924c62b969256a9cf3f3fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c1b90831e924c62b969256a9cf3f3fc\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT does not have anyone on the Law and Order Committee, so I have been sitting here listening to the debate, and before I came down to the House I listened to it from my office. I think this is a good piece of legislation. I think it is needed. Like a number of the other speakers, I do not think it is tough enough or goes far enough. I think Parliament could consider extending this sort of legislation into other situations where New Zealanders go overseas and default on money they owe. For instance, student loans are treated as a tax, which means that they cannot be recovered from people who move overseas. We should treat them as a debt, and when people move overseas and default on their student loans, there is no reason why we should not sell those debts to a private collection agency and have them collected. That would be a deterrent to students who think they can rack up loans here and then go away and welsh on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI am horrified by the amount of money that is owed in fines by defaulters, how difficult it is to recover those fines, and how hamstrung the agencies are by having to rely on just a simple address when they try to recover those fines. Even when defaulters remain in New Zealand, it must still be a nightmare for those agencies. But a couple of things concern me. One is that when we have legislation that allows the sharing of information, we have to be very careful that that information is not abused or misused. I have had experience of this in drafting the Sex Offenders Registry Bill, which causes, obviously, a much more emotive reaction than this sort of legislation does, although one could argue that the harm done by those people is worse than the harm done by these people. However, we have been very careful when copying legislation from Canada and the UK\u2014where information is shared between agencies and passed on between people\u2014that the information is correct and is correctly used. Everybody knows that there are times when fines\u2014especially fines for less serious things\u2014are disputed. If people do not have a system in place for paying them off, they are liable for arrest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Customs Service has enormous powers. I remember writing a story about information being passed to it in a malicious way. This information accused two individuals of importing class A drugs and selling them in Parnell nightclubs. One of the people who came back into the country was detained by customs for 6 hours and searched, and suffered enormous humiliation and distress, because that person was innocent of all of those things. It was very difficult for that information to be removed from the records of the Customs Service. The service finally conceded that the information had been passed to it maliciously, and it said it had to act on any information it was given But for the innocent parties it took a long time\u2014over a year\u2014for that information to be corrected on their records, and for them to be able to travel between countries, and to and from New Zealand, able to breathe easy in the knowledge that they were not likely to be pulled aside, questioned, and have all their stuff searched. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIt concerns me that section 280E, which is inserted by clause 7, states that there is no Crown liability for third parties unless it has not acted in good faith, or has been grossly negligent. It seems to me that that would not include the fact that information had been passed to the Crown maliciously, that the information had been used in good faith, and that the Crown had not been grossly negligent. That does not offer any protection to someone who has, none the less, taken months to clear his or her name and get the issue cleared up. There is no liability on the Crown to address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf942cd7f5d94c7a9542c4cdc8cb0295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf942cd7f5d94c7a9542c4cdc8cb0295\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca7381aff8474e278aabb60b5a48c4e5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 8; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 39\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000452\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to an amendment to clause 7 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000453\u0022\u003Eto insert in subsection (1) of proposed new section 280F of the Customs and Excise Act the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000454\u0022\u003E(da)\tthe person\u2019s nationality:.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022817c3dc73796433c869866250fcb8e91\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 27\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 79\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 12; Green Party 8; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000455\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to an amendment to clause 7 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000456\u0022\u003Eto insert in subsection (1) of proposed new section 280F of the Customs and Excise Act the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000457\u0022\u003E(da)\tany other information that may assist in the location of the specified fines defaulter.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e343cfe94e2346b994b7aba3bae22271\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 27\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 79\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 12; Green Party 8; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000458\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to an amendment to clause 7 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000459\u0022\u003Eto insert in subparagraph (i) of proposed new section 280F(3)(a) of the Customs and Excise Act after the words \u201C(or any other\u201D, the word \u201Clesser\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b5538d8667f6491f9d49bf62c54e307d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 27\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 79\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 12; Green Party 8; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000460\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000461\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022e85f1d634720498590dd0acf37ea9ecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e85f1d634720498590dd0acf37ea9ecd\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson . I waited until all the votes had been put because I did not want to be seen to be either churlish or in any way questioning your judgment. I came down to the Chamber some time ago, very interested in Part 2 because of the information-sharing stuff in it. I am probably one of the few people in the House with a degree in computer science and information technology. I tried on two occasions to take a call, because information sharing is a very important part of the bill, and will be a major issue that the House will deal with across the whole of government as time goes by. Yet I notice that you very quickly took a closure motion, even though I was trying to take a call. Maybe I have quite a quiet voice and I am quite hard to spot in a crowd, but I did try to call as loud as I could. I wonder whether you could give us some guidelines: is it just futile for members who are interested in a bill to come down to the Chamber to try to take part in the debate if you are going to take closure motions as quickly as that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8fab57c9aa94ddcbbbc2cace26e63c9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No. National had three calls on that part. I think that was covered. There were two clauses in that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229da42100d6c74d3686ab507765ee5424\u0022\u003EPart 3  District Courts Act 1947\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00224cba4b7429a94529a0bd33f6150ccb8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cba4b7429a94529a0bd33f6150ccb8d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill goes to the heart of one of the important mechanical ways in which this bill seeks to operate. It provides to court registrars the power to issue arrest warrants to debtors, with or without a judge being present in the courthouse. Currently, the law allows registrars to issue those warrants of arrest only if the judge is absent, but now it will provide that the rest of those matters will be dealt with by registrars, even if a judge is present in the courthouse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThat is an important provision for this bill, because once there are warrants of arrest out for people and they either have fines in excess of $5,000 or outstanding reparation sentences or payments, they can then be subject to this regime. Right now, there are a very limited number of people who owe more than $5,000 and who are subject to an arrest warrant\u2014in fact, the number is 500, according to advice from the Ministry of Justice. But let us just look at those people who do owe more than $5,000 in fines. According to information I received from the Minister in the middle of last year\u2014which is older information\u2014about 25,000 people owe more than $5,000. Those 25,000 people, according to my calculations, owe $220 million in total. We have people who owe sums of $800,000, $300,000, $139,000\u2014huge amounts of money are owed in fines by people who owe over $5,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EBut of that 25,000 who owe a total of $220 million, only 500 are subject to a warrant of arrest, and they are the group this legislation hopes to target. The Government\u2019s own advisers said that when this bill was first introduced it would have caught 35 of those people each year. Now, it will catch 117 of them each year, but members must wonder, when $220 million was outstanding from that group of people this time last year, how much money will be caught with this legislation. I tell them it is only $1.5 million. The legislation really does not go far enough. That percentage is 0.25 of 1 percent of the debt that is outstanding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222badbe3c01794074800c2099bd395680\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Say that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c12df97a664fc6a6bd77e3e063c868\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: One-quarter of 1 percent of the debt outstanding will be caught by this legislation. Why are we even bothering with this provision to extend the ability of registrars to issue warrants of arrest? I bet members that this Minister cannot even tell us how many extra people the provision will help catch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ae96f2d890480a8368b31910488d80\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Lots.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b2423b83ec7427b9b4b98a48d0f4e7c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we have that on the record. It will catch lots more than the 117?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227990227cd9fe4aa6bab965dd78cc5b89\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad67ca9518b42ada5e3305b315d7dc3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022625241c4852243dda1e9b0f2efc146e6\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t got the precise figure, but it will be much more effective\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e183e9ef4204d6c9415989f1263d1c3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I ask for a precise figure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b0a697bd9c34534bb846fb558f93cee\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I want to say to the member that the sooner we get this legislation passed, the sooner we can start implementing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232974852982247d4a907c290175afe11\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. We should get moving. We say to the Government that if it is serious about cracking down on fines defaulters, its members should vote for the amendments that I have put forward, because those amendments will provide for a number of things. They will provide for us to get all the information the various departments have. They will provide for us not to allow the Labour Government to lift the threshold whereby people can qualify\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a97a9de64184d84a1f554b31b6c48e4\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f21e98267fb436cb8894cb554113f4c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I heard Mr Tamihere say that some people have the ability to just change one word here or one word there in order to change the whole meaning of a clause, and that is why I am moving that amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EFrankly, I do not think that what is being proposed in this bill goes anywhere near far enough, and I would like to hear from this Minister an explanation of the numbers that will be involved, and of what the benefit of doing this actually is. What is the actual benefit of doing this, when 117 people will be caught by this legislation? There has to be an arrest warrant before people can be caught. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf475d65293a436790aefd9473ab9ecd\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: The provision gives the registrar more powers to issue arrest warrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022510e04fbbe4642c99acf1da80815d85e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: So how many more will be issued? He does not know, and that is the whole point of what we have been saying\u2014the Minister does not know. When the Minister first brought this bill to the House, I bet he did not even know that it would affect only 35 people. Did the Minister know that it would affect only 35 people? Did he ask? It is a pretty basic question. Obviously not! He did not ask whether 35 people would be affected, or even what number would be affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022 data-id=\u00222d359c88c7d54835ab9da91c7d6b5a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d359c88c7d54835ab9da91c7d6b5a73\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports this bill, but there is a \u201Cbut\u201D. I have listened to the debate this afternoon, and I want to cover a number of issues. In looking at Part 3, I go along with what Mr Ryall from National said, and I start asking myself why we really need to include these clauses, or this part, in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EI want to cover one or two provisions in the part, which I think will be important if carried out correctly. Under clause 9(1), section 84C(1) of the principal Act is amended by \u201Comitting the words \u2018a Judge, or if a Judge is not available, a Registrar,\u2019, and substituting the words \u2018a Judge or Registrar\u2019.\u201D Clause 9(2) states: \u201CSection 84C(2) of the principal Act is amended by repealing paragraph (d), and substituting the following paragraph: \u2018(d) if the judgment debtor cannot practicably be brought immediately before a Judge or a Registrar, any member of the police or any bailiff may take the bail bond of the judgment debtor, and Parts 1 to 3 of the Bail Act 2000 apply with any necessary modifications as if the bail bond were taken by a member of the police under section 21(1) of that Act.\u2019\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EI want now to cover what the Hon Richard Prebble said, that $650 million of fines are outstanding but that we are to look for only 117 people, and the amount we will get back will be only $1.5 million. I go along with Mr Ryall in asking why we need that provision in the legislation. I have some figures that were obtained by the Minister for Courts which show that the total amount wiped in 1999 had grown by 54 percent, when $25.6 million in fines was wiped. I have another quotation: \u201CThe figures also showed 830 people had fines over $10,000 wiped last year, compared with 23 in 2003, although the majority were for sums less than $1,000.\u201D Why do we want this provision in the legislation if we are to use it, like a wet bus ticket, to slap people on the back of the hand? There is also information, as Mr Ryall said, stating that most of the fines were written off because people went to jail or were given community work. A Rotorua man had $43,000 of fines wiped in return for 300 hours of community service. Well, I tell the Minister, I have seen people in court being handed down sentences of community hours but not doing them, and they have been back in court 2 or 3 months later. So, coming back to Part 3, I say that a lot more work needs to be done in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003ETo cover the last issue, I ask why we have clause 13, \u201CJudgment debtor undergoing periodic detention to be discharged on payment\u201D. The clause states: \u201CThe heading to section 84Q of the principal Act is amended by omitting the words \u2018undergoing periodic detention\u2019, and substituting the words \u2018doing community work\u2019.\u201D I tell members that I know a lot of young people who have been given those sentences, and they are not even doing the work. I say to the Committee and to the people of New Zealand that when New Zealand First\u2019s law and order policies are put in place, youth will be put in the army for a bit of discipline. The Minister should look carefully at Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00225678ed1ca2934ad8b29210af662c2d41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225678ed1ca2934ad8b29210af662c2d41\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Perry\u2019s contribution was a very fine contribution, and I would like to ask him, when he is doing his factoring, not to forget that in addition to the $1.5 million this initiative will bring, which is $1.5 million of the $600 million - odd due, the Government expects to get another million dollars from the advanced voluntary compliance arising out of its publicity surrounding this initiative. So there will be $2.5 million, but $1 million will come from those thugs who thumb their noses at law\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cb9a54d772a41379ac947b844efb3ed\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb108c6619dd44419cb6c1e16c130e26\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!, I suppose, is the term that comes to mind. The other thing I should add, before I turn my attention to Part 3 specifically, is that the increased ongoing annual operating costs to fund this initiative\u2014this comes from the officials\u2014is estimated at $750,000. So that is the increased operating cost per annum. Then there is an additional set-up cost of $938,000. That is a total cost of $1.7 million to recoup $1.5 million. Do members understand the maths? $1.7 million to capture $1.5 million\u2014and the Government wonders why we are having a little bit of trouble following its logic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI turn my attention to Part 3, clause 9. That is the component that broadens the number of authorised people who can issue warrants for arrest. That sounds good, but I want to share with members exactly what happens now, and they can ask themselves whether it will make any difference. One of the submitters to the Law and Order Committee told us that once the prescribed fee has been paid, the collections unit of the District Court takes over and attempts to serve the judgment debtor with an order for examination. The submitter said that all too frequently the collections officer responds that: \u201CThe defendant has moved to another address. The house is vacant. Please provide additional information for the collections officer to attempt to serve again.\u201D\u2014then there is one little line, and it is the show-stopper\u2014\u201CThe order for examination hearing will not proceed.\u201D They go to all the trouble of doing that, they go back to the court, the court rules again, the deputy registrar directs the warrant to arrest against the judgment debtor, and it is issued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EWhat happens next is all too common. The court writes, in relation to the application for a warrant to arrest the judgment debtor: \u201CThe collections officer\u2019s notice of non-execution advises that the defendant has moved to another address. Please provide additional information for the collections officer to attempt execution again.\u201D The submitter said that they were getting pretty frustrated by this point, that they were looking to the Government to help them out, and that they failed to see how this law would help them. They go to a lot of trouble and supply a lot of information through their own devices, which the Government agencies say they simply could not get hold of\u2014they even find out where the debtor lives, even though the Government says that it could not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThey supply the new address to the court and they try again to effect the execution of a warrant to arrest, and the response usually is: \u201CDefendant is not known at this address.\u201D They write and tell the crooks that they are coming, then wonder why they are not there when they arrive. \u201CThe defendant is not known at this address.\u201D, says the flatmate, who has been slipped 20 bucks to say that. \u201CThe defendant has moved overseas.\u201D We could follow Mr Prebble\u2019s argument\u2014and I think it has some merit\u2014that we ought to just let debtors go. Why do we want to intercept them, anyway? The trouble is that some of them come back, and that is when we want to pick them up. \u201CPlease provide additional information for the collections officer to attempt execution again.\u201D\u2014that is the bit that really rotates them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThey have received that three times, with that little show-stopper at the bottom that the order for examination or warrant will not proceed. We are asked to believe now that this bill is going to change all of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022340b6a77b873409fafe95a0d01ead1f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022340b6a77b873409fafe95a0d01ead1f0\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u002239a3653091e14de187ed49b2ab35a739\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239a3653091e14de187ed49b2ab35a739\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E As I said before, this legislation appears to be good legislation. The intent is good in terms of not letting people welsh on their fines and not take their punishment. It is a piece of legislation that looks good, but when one drills into it further, one wonders what, in fact, it will actually achieve. Listening to the debate so far, I heard Edwin Perry say that we will be going after only 117 people at the moment, and collecting $1.5 million at most, out of $500 million. I cannot see that there has been a cost-benefit analysis done on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e041d581b026490fbc6a9588332f7ae1\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there has. It is $1.7 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdead60ee1144389b9e3e8c4e508df2e\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: The benefit is $1.7 million. And what is the cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f60a41f965754220bbc688c31bc4c94a\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: The cost is $1.7 million to get back $1.5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235c4300fcf3a44b788312a5c0ad47ce2\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: Everybody knows that the courts system is in total disarray, and has been for decades, and this legislation will not clean it up. When I ask what the cost is, we all know this legislation will invoke the law of unintended consequences. I just wonder whether there are things in here that are really necessary, and actually defeat the purposes of this bill. For instance, there is an education programme, whereby people, first of all, will be told, according to Brian Connell, that they will be arrested and will be served with something, so that when we turn up to serve the something on them they are not there. Then people are told that if they leave the country, or when they come back, they will be stopped at the border\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239bf5ae4f9da4333b5df0b50e20ea0de\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If they\u2019re unlucky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c57cc30c2b644b6586745a394b154738\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we have to be really nice to criminals, because if we are nice to them then they will be nice back. That is the socialist philosophy. And if they are really bad, one should say: \u201CPlease be nice.\u201D One just has to read the latest Rip It Up magazine. It has the Greens\u2019 crime policy there in a nutshell. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI get back to Part 3, and the education system. Why do we tell fine defaulters? Would it not be better not to have them come back, just to let them go? If a person racks up a fine of $500, that amount compounds because of enforcement charges, and it goes on. Most members here have children; we know what they are like. To use an analogy, a young person goes out, is meant to be home for tea at 7.30 but is not. At 9.30 the young person thinks he or she will get a growling anyway, so might as well stay out until 1.30 and enjoy him or herself. Young people are the same with fines. They rack up fines for $1,000, $1,500, and think that they are never going to be able to pay $1,500. They let it go and the fine goes up to $7,000. Why do we not just let them go, and not let them come back? [Interruption] Edwin Perry is right; it is true\u2014it will be wiped when they get back. That is quite right. If they get taken before the court, if they get through all the barriers that this legislation sets up before we actually get the money out of them, they are likely to get 6 months\u2019 periodic detention, or some community service. If we work backwards and calculate the time it takes to pay off the fines, some of them are in effect earning something like $300 an hour through community service\u2014and that is if they even turn up to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EClause 10 in Part 3 is another interesting interpretation in light of the recent decision of the Supreme Court. We now do not even know what the difference is between salary and wages, and a payment in consideration of work performed under a contract for services. We cannot blame the courts for that. That is what this Labour Government\u2014Margaret Wilson\u2014has told them to do. It has told them to walk all over contracts. It does not matter if someone has a contract for services performed with a film production company, for instance, the contract is not that at all, according to this Government, because it can go before the court and it will become classified as wages and salary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThat will have enormous consequences on the film industry, as well as on all sorts of other industries, where people are paid huge amounts of money for a very short time, and then they might be off work for 2 or 3 months. But under this new philosophy from this Government, people with employment contracts of that type will be entitled to the same personal grievance claims as people on wages or a salary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00224f4d522df7dc4fd3a0f7853fa6624304\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f4d522df7dc4fd3a0f7853fa6624304\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill, which National supports, is clearly important legislation, and there is no need to hurry through it. I am concerned that we appear to be proceeding at breakneck speed and I look ahead to see that there are nine parts to this bill. So there is every opportunity that we could spend tomorrow in concerned and critical debate about some of the key provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would just like to focus on one particular aspect that comes quite dramatically out of Part 3, which is the references to the word \u201Cbailiff\u201D. That word first appears in clause 9, \u201CWhere judgment debtor does not appear at examination or order cannot be served\u201D, and reappears in clause 12, \u201CContempt procedures\u201D, where wide-ranging changes are planned to section 84O(6) of the principal Act. I have just been looking at the definition of \u201Cbailiff\u201D in the District Courts Act, because Part 3 is concerned with the District Courts Act, and I have been reflecting on what the implications might be of this change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe word \u201Cbailiff\u201D is from the Latin bajulivus and is the adjectival form of bajulus. It means a governor or custodian. So in its modern context it is used to describe a legal officer to whom some degree of authority, care, or jurisdiction is committed. I would just note that because the definition is an open one in this statute, a number of possibilities are certainly thrown up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe term was first applied in England to the King\u2019s officers generally, such as sheriffs and mayors, and more particularly to the chief officer of a hundred. So the county within which the sheriff exercises his or her jurisdiction is still called the sheriff\u2019s bailiwick, while the term \u201Cbailiff\u201D is retained as the title of the chief magistrate of various towns, and the keepers of royal castles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EMembers may know that under the manorial system, the bailiff, the steward, and the reeve were important officers. The bailiff managed the property of the manor and superintended its cultivation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI have been asked to make some comment about the position of the reeve and those special responsibilities, and I may seek leave for an extension of time to deal with that at some length, but I would say that the bailiff of a sheriff is an under-officer employed by a sheriff within a county for the purpose of executing writs, processes, distraints, and arrests. It is in that context that I believe\u2014subject to the Minister making some comment about this in a moment\u2014we are perhaps most appropriately concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EAs a sheriff is liable for the acts of the officers acting under his warrant, his bailiffs are annually bound to him in an obligation with sureties for the faithful discharge of their office. As a result of that, they are called bound bailiffs. They are also often called bum-bailiffs or, shortly, \u201Cbums\u201D. The origin of this word is uncertain. The new English dictionary suggests that it is an allusion to the mode of catching the offender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESpecial bailiffs are officers appointed by the sheriff at the request of a plaintiff for the purpose of executing a particular process. There have been significant changes to the District Courts Act 1947 since that legislation was enacted. Members of Parliament who are lawyers would, I think, mourn some of the changes that have been made in the context of the enforcement of judgments and, in particular, the very critical role that bailiffs have performed over the years since this legislation was enacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022a437bde5ab5644e2a746807c9e6748c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a437bde5ab5644e2a746807c9e6748c6\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff08e74f565441c9a2934dc6131f9919\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff08e74f565441c9a2934dc6131f9919\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I thought for a moment that I would be struck out of having the opportunity to speak to this part of the bill. I will just say to my colleague who is about to leave the Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022489a2876c4b6452d8fd484b6a9bed7b3\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: No, he\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022684beab9d192499082fd8f9056038534\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014oh, he has come back in\u2014that listening to his contribution has, I believe, headed off the 4 a.m. contribution I made in the Chamber some years ago, when I made reference to those who might be listening on the cowshed radio. Thank goodness the cows are dry, because if farmers were listening on their cowshed radio to the previous contribution, I am sure they would be as confused as I am. But I have learnt a lot about bailiffs, and about where they came from, through that process. I will go back to discussing the bill for a moment, if I can. I look at the members on the Government benches, and I see that the Minister of Finance is back on deck and will be the No. 51 vote, which those members will maintain until the wee small hours of tomorrow morning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207dee272202b4b0ca51c8ce9bbeaab61\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Sunday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f77283c6b91f4230ba3a1b5dd36e219d\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or at least until Sunday morning, to make sure that this bill gets a proper hearing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say to the member that when we listened to the Budget with some interest, clearly we were looking at a number of areas the Minister had included in his statement on how the State would fund the various activities it would be involved in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f29ec86c57a4463aaafe359f43aa7e5\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: We never thought they would do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e85a1f1e42894fc98b0318f9d0020dc8\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014my colleague is on to it. We never for a moment considered that the Government would introduce legislation straight after the Budget to catch 117 crooks at the border, who are trying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca96d19502a04c3eb8b697cc52ecf9d9\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: These are alleged ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b32d498666e4424a576218192f591a2\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No, they are the convicted ones. They are not alleged crooks; they are the ones who have been convicted. They are convicted crooks who are trying to escape New Zealand at the border. Now I understand how the Government will overcome the huge problem that it has with regard to the shortage of prison cells in this country. It will get the Customs Service to protect the borders in such a way that anybody with unpaid fines and a criminal conviction who tries to get out of New Zealand will be turned back at the border, and that person will not be able to escape to Australia or anywhere else until he or she has cleared those fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere are quite serious issues that probably need to be touched on in this legislation, as well, particularly in this part, because it refers to this matter. One issue is why the Government, which is trying through this legislation to enhance the information flow between the Immigration Service, the Customs Service, and the police, is not allowing that to happen, so that all three departments in unison\u2014along with the Inland Revenue Department, if that is necessary\u2014can identify the people who have, as I am led to believe, $600 million - plus worth of unpaid fines? Why does the Government not allow information to flow between those departments, so that they can find those people and go out and make them pay their fines? The Minister may want to answer that question; I do not know the answer to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dbcec63cf9f412bb62794cdd5ebad58\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re doing it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a9f1b720127421ea1b220ca948e2ec2\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why is there a need for this legislation, if the Government is doing it now? Why are we doing this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7fefee340b74a47a2e46d08eb0a2f30\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: This is about civil debt enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f56958aa7af548f581faeb37b01c44f9\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, we will let the Minister take a call and explain that in a moment, because that would be a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe next point the Minister may like to touch on when he takes the call is why, if that is so, we have a $5,000 threshold. Why do we not just reduce the threshold to zero, and then anybody with an unpaid fine who presents himself or herself to one or another of those departments is then clobbered? Why does the Government not do that? How come we have put a $5,000 threshold in place? Is it because the Government believes that the cost of retrieving fines of less than that might be greater than the benefit to the State? That would be a reasonable explanation. Most members in the Committee would accept that explanation, if that is so. Why is there a $5,000 threshold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab5d782217f943ee868227464eeee79c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab5d782217f943ee868227464eeee79c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022013f071556e94e76b464f1b5b13f2c86\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 8; United Future 6; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 38\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 21; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000531\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of Hon Rick Barker to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000532\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa77da1171ae4f40a059add15c76ff57\u0022\u003EPart 4  Immigration Act 1987\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002287ab1469ee52495d91298809bc801bf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287ab1469ee52495d91298809bc801bf8\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Part 4 actually has quite a significant number of important issues and questions. I hope the Minister will take a call and answer some of the questions, or I will be required to move further amendments in order to try to get some clarity on this matter. I will just look at what we are particularly wanting him to talk about in respect of this part. Part 4 proposes changes to the Immigration Act to allow for improved information-sharing on the part of the Immigration Service\u2014specifically, in its role at our nation\u2019s airports and departure points\u2014providing information to the courts on a number of areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to answer a number of questions. First of all, his Supplementary Order Paper removes the requirement for the Department of Labour to advise anybody\u2019s aliases that might have been used in its immigration files. Why would the Government not allow the fines enforcers to know the various aliases that people may be using? There are people who get fined under various aliases. Why would one remove that extra information from the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d728abebfc53446d91e1c349da823e24\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e749718f6fc24b509fe4dafb880a13ea\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, if the member looks at the Supplementary Order Paper, he will see that under clause 15 the Minister is removing the requirement to provide any known aliases\u2014[Interruption] Exactly. It is a question of whether that person is known as Anthony or Tony, or Harold or Harry, or something like that. That is the sort of information that could be provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EAlso, and I want the Minister to take a call on this, what about the new provisions that he has brought in under the Supplementary Order Paper to provide for the commercial airline carriers to receive confidential fines information? This bill did not go to a select committee. I presume it has gone past the Privacy Commissioner\u2014the officials are nodding furiously. Can the Minister explain to us why we are providing this right for the airlines to get specified fines defaulter information? Where is the protection to stop the airlines from passing that information on to anybody else? There is no protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI have moved an amendment that would expressly make it an offence for any airline, or any of its staff, to pass on the specified debtor information. That should be an offence. That is information that would normally be within the wider Crown sector going out to the airlines\u2014and sensibly too, because that is how the system will work. But where is the protection to make sure that that information does not go any further, and is not used for any other purpose at all? I would like the Minister to take some time to explain that to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI have also moved an additional amendment. I am concerned that if it becomes too difficult for the Government to implement this policy with the $5,000 cut-off and an arrest warrant\u2014117 people a year\u2014it may move to lift that threshold. Because the bill, as introduced, stated $10,000. Opposition parties got it down to $5,000, plus the power for an Order in Council to drop it further, but the wording does not say that. It allows the executive to say that that $5,000 threshold could go up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EJust remember, John Tamihere said that the Minister of Finance could pull the wool over parties by moving one word here or one word there. So I ask United Future to support my amendment that states: \u201CThe Governor-General, by Order in Council, cannot change the amount other than by Order in Council of a lesser amount.\u201D Because, remember, the Government was telling us: \u201COh, once we\u2019ve got it all organised and working efficiently, we\u2019ll drop it down.\u201D Remember? That is the line that the Government was running. But, look, one cannot trust these people. John Tamihere told us that one cannot trust them. We need to put a word in there that says that one cannot lower the level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223673653ed58b408792956228999d99e4\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: You had me up till that point, but I\u2019m going in the opposite direction now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b32480d05ee9462aae05a4106dd6466d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is my worry. I do not want these things moved in the opposite direction. I want them moved down. I saw the Minister of Finance cringe when Mr Ardern made the point: \u201CWell, why does it have to be $5,000; why can\u2019t it be lower?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00225253b27e99f04e8db84f542048ee6e6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225253b27e99f04e8db84f542048ee6e6d\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E On the basis of the member\u2019s amendment about a lesser amount, I have given an undertaking to accept his amendment. There is no problem about that. We are going to be absolutely straight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOn the other issue about information that goes to the airlines, I come back to the point I made earlier. If we want the situation whereby the bags of a \u201Cperson of interest\u201D are not loaded with everybody else\u2019s bags, and therefore we do not need to hold the plane up and everybody else, we want the airline to be able to say: \u201CThis person is of interest.\u201D No other information will be given to the airline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b5fabd43e1c4d3b9e313684b84a6d71\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: How does that work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9c3d61208be4b52938a12ba2906c180\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The airline will be told only that the person is of interest to us. It will not be given any other information or background. We can tell the airline to make sure those bags are put aside. The airline will not know any of the details. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c475e9ca95dc4537a73950dbdc9fbb1d\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What about other activities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b85c45d666114cb19be630d46c1f9b51\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The airline can have a lot of other things, but that was the issue in terms of aliases. My advice is that we want to try to avoid, as best we can, mistaken identity. If I, Rick Barker, was heading off to Australia to attend the funeral of someone who was very close, and someone else had a fine owing, and I thought: \u201CWell, my name is actually Richard John Barker\u201D, but the system had the alias \u201CRick Barker\u201D and I was told: \u201CThis is your fine.\u201D, and I was held at the airport and missed the funeral, we would all feel terrible about that mistake. We have to make sure that we do this at the highest level. The officials made the point that aliases in the system make it more probable that a mistake will occur and the wrong person will be picked out. So we are trying to do this thing properly. If it is my fine, I will have to pay it before I get on the plane.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00226680570f91114f61a4bcb57e66ce17ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226680570f91114f61a4bcb57e66ce17ed\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I feel compelled to make a contribution to this part of the debate\u2014in particular, this part of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill. I want to record the Minister for Courts\u2019 comments again in Hansard, and thank him for indicating support for what, no doubt from this point on, will become known as the \u201CRyall amendment\u201D. I think the Minister, to his credit, given the late hours that the Committee has been working on various bills, has seen the sense of the amendment tabled by Mr Ryall, and the National Party thanks the Government for its support on that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThere does, however, remain the question of the deletion in Part 4 of aliases\u2014in particular, their deletion from the information relating to a person who is in default that may be held. The Minister\u2019s statement\u2014and I will paraphrase for the Committee\u2019s sake\u2014was that the officials were against aliases being included because they were concerned that more people would be picked up who were not people of the kind that they wanted to pick up, or words to that effect. The Minister nods and agrees that that is a fair interpretation of his remarks in his last contribution. Well, actually this bill and the seriousness of the bill are not the officials\u2019 concern. They are there to advise the Minister. I would be interested in knowing why the Minister is prepared to have aliases removed from the information that may be held. The Minister gave the example of his travelling overseas, and being known by a name other than the Hon Rick Barker\u2014Richard, I believe the Minister said, was his given name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBut is not the point that that provision, which errs on the side of caution in terms of people who may go by more than one name, is completely inconsistent with the provision that follows, relating to Crown liability? Under that provision\u2014I am talking about new section 141AF(2) inserted by clause 15\u2014the Crown is \u201Cnot liable to any person \u2026 for any loss or damage caused as a result of, or in connection with, the actions described\u2019\u2019 above, which is liability for fines, if the employee of the Crown \u201Chas not acted in good faith or has been grossly negligent.\u201D Would not the easy way to deal with the aliases question, and the question contained in that part of the clause, simply be to weaken the second provision so that there is liability if the official or authorised employee was simply wrong? If we include aliases, and if the official or employee gets it wrong, then the Crown should have liability in that instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill is trying to have a dollar each way, by saying on the one hand we do not want to be too tough, and on the other hand we will make the threshold that a person owing fines has to meet far higher than an ordinary criminal threshold. In other words, there is liability on behalf of the Crown only if the employee of the Crown has not acted in good faith, or has been grossly negligent. Well, what if there was liability if the employee was just wrong? Surely, that would be enough of a protection for the person who may, or may not, use an alias, and it would enable the Government to reinsert aliases, and information relating to aliases, back into the bill. At present, the Minister is trying to have his cake and eat it too. It would be a far simpler drafting exercise for the Minister simply to include aliases and, while he is at it, drop the threshold of liability for the Crown, so that if officials get it wrong, the person concerned can bring an action against the Crown. That would make far more sense. The Minister should include aliases and drop the standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00222d8d1378b34c4936a7371c37e1c0b0dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d8d1378b34c4936a7371c37e1c0b0dc\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I shall carry on from that member on the issue about aliases. There are two issues on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker that relate to Part 4, and they are both important issues that should have gone to the Law and Order Committee so that, for a start, the airlines could make submissions on them. Why are we making the airlines responsible for helping us to catch criminals? They may be pretty relaxed about that, or they may not be. But they should at least have had the opportunity to have their say on it. It is extraordinary that it has suddenly come to the Minister\u2019s notice at this very late stage, when we are putting this legislation through in urgency, that those two very important things suddenly need to be included, or excluded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EBefore I move on from the subject of the airlines, we wonder why our airfares go up and up. It is because of all the compliance things that are put on to the airlines. The Minister says that it is just a simple thing, like noting that if certain bags belong to a person of interest, the airlines need to keep them out. But that is never a simple thing for a business. Anything that adds to the handling or the time businesses spend adds to their compliance costs, and affects their bottom line. Of course, their prices go up. In order to try to attract passengers when they advertise, they break their fares down into all the little bits, and then they are taken to court by the Commerce Commission because they are breaking their prices down into little bits and add-ons. The commission says we are all stupid, we cannot add them up, we do not know the full cost, and we need to be protected from ourselves. So that is the first issue that this provision relates to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI am pleased to support the \u201CRyall amendment\u201D, which will go in. That is a very good idea. It is extraordinary that it was overlooked before\u2014that it was not a higher amount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe other issue relates to aliases. If one looks at the way that people behave, we see they always behave according to incentives. People\u2019s behaviour is guided by incentives. For instance, when they have one child and are on the domestic purposes benefit, if they know they will get more money and a bigger house by having two or three more children, then they will have two or three more children while they are on the domestic purposes benefit for that reason. It is just human nature. We had the classic example of supplementary minimum prices, which were taken away in 1984-85. It was social welfare for farmers\u2014and my father was one of those farmers, and I probably benefited from them. But in the long run, it was better for them to be taken away. Farmers were paid more money according to how many sheep they ran, if one wants to put it simply, and the sheep were ground down for fertiliser. That is how bad supplementary minimum prices were for the country. Some of our erosion problems are a direct result of those incentives. So incentives affect people in short-term and long-term ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EMr Chairman is probably wondering how that relates to Part 4, and I am about to get back to that point. If we are to remove the reference to aliases here\u2014and the only reason we have had from the Minister to remove it is that his officials have advised him we should remove it, because of the issue of mistaken identity for the Hon Richard Barker when he goes overseas\u2014what will people do? They will use aliases. That is the first thing they will do; it is the logical thing to do. People will just go out there and use an alias. It is a very easy thing to do, for instance, if one has a car, and the fines are traffic fines. It is a very easy thing to have aliases, so that is what will happen. That will send a signal out there straightaway. Not only does someone have to owe $5,000 and have a warrant out for his or her arrest, but all that person has to do in order to escape these provisions after that is to rack up fines under a whole lot of different aliases. Then one will not come under this legislation, according to Part 4 of this bill. The Minister needs to give a better explanation than he has given for removing the reference to aliases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u002250f33f1402474320a7262bf02040055e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250f33f1402474320a7262bf02040055e\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I am really delighted to get a call on Part 4. I tried so earnestly in Part 2. I notice that a lot of clauses in the bill are very similar, except instead of the issue being between the Customs Service and the Ministry of Justice, when we get to Part 4 it is between the Department of Labour and the ministry, under new section 141AE inserted by clause 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington has probably raised one of the most interesting issues here, which is why the Minister for Courts would have put into the original bill section 141AE(4)(b), which refers to any aliases. Members should remember that this is the information that is to be made available to the authorities to identify a person who is a fines defaulter. Why would the Minister have put it in the legislation from the outset? Now we have some stupid Supplementary Order Paper amendment stating we need to take it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIf the Minister knows one thing, and if members know one thing, it is that for just about everybody we hear announced on the radio as having done some crooked deal, the announcer will say \u201Cso-and-so, also known as\u201D. We will often hear three or four names. I think it is a cracker. I do not know how people keep track of the different names they are \u201Calso known as\u201D. That is what a lot of the offending criminal world is about. [Interruption] We know how people get aliases\u2014like the David Benson-Pope \u201CTennis Ball\u201D alias, which just flies off the tongue, or \u201CDavid the Enforcer\u201D. There is a very godfather-type thing about him. We know that those aliases float around with people all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EHere is the question: why is this information going to be shared? The answer is so that we can identify the person. Therefore, would it not be logical to share every piece of information that could be provided to allow the person to be identified? Why say that we will share the information, but we will restrict it to people\u2019s full Christian name and surname, when a lot of the thugs and the crooks out there do not even remember their original Christian name and surname? Those names are often long forgotten, and they go under all sorts of names like \u201CLouie the Tough Guy\u201D. This situation is just bizarre. I did not actually pick it up until the Hon Tony Ryall made it clear, because the way it is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022850b0808e7f84d5c91a40ee069faca06\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CMaurice the Regulator\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f249344bc11342bf90e9c7e832e9eb44\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, \u201CMaurice the Regulator\u201D has a good tone to it. It never happened, but one day it might. \u201CMaurice the Regulator\u201D is a great name. All I want to say to the Minister is that if we are talking about information sharing, why is the bill so specific about these fields? That is the worst thing about legislation; we go down to the level of the actual data fields that can be passed over, and we say that probably the most useful field for identifying some of the criminal fraternity is not allowed to be passed over. So the name \u201CFrederick Horace Crichton\u201D can be passed over, even though Frederick does not know that that is his name, because although it was given to him in the hospital when he was born it has never been used since. It is just bizarre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022502ddc55d0b54dfcb377bddb81f039cc\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is this the best filibuster the member can come up with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfdac758e510408499816f4c24f66221\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, I can tell Mr Cunliffe\u2014I think that is his name\u2014that there have been better filibusters and there are more to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut I want to get on to another point in the bill and that is to do with liability of the Crown. New section 141AF in clause 15 is headed: \u201CNo Crown liability to third parties for fines enforcement action\u201D. This is where some obligation goes on the Government to act a little bit responsibly and in a timely manner. One of the things that has happened to airlines in recent years is that they rely on the very last handful of passengers loaded on to a plane for their profit. Anyone who has read the Dominion Post today will see that Air New Zealand says that even with full aeroplanes crossing the Tasman it is losing money. It is such a cut-throat, competitive business. Airlines go through the lists of people who are booked and do some culling right up until the last day. They say: \u201CWell, that one\u2019s a no-show, and that one won\u2019t be there, so go back to the travel agent.\u201D, because an airline seat is the most perishable commodity in the world. The moment the airliner door is closed, the seat has no value at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhat the Government is saying here is that it might, through its agencies, pull out of a flight right at the last moment a passenger who has paid $12,000, $15,000, or $16,000 for a first-class airfare to London. That leaves an empty seat, and the airline is unable to offer it to anybody on a wait list or a go-show. I want the Minister to explain what he will do about that liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00228f79e146d7cf41c6b26303bfc47d1fea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f79e146d7cf41c6b26303bfc47d1fea\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002286a04ef7e1fd46778b901889c0263d27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286a04ef7e1fd46778b901889c0263d27\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the call on Part 4 of this exhilarating debate. I am really enjoying being here this afternoon and digging in for a long session. I look forward to getting back here tomorrow morning and engaging in battle with my Labour colleagues. It is the type of invigorating stuff that makes one want to be a member of Parliament. I cannot wait for the election so that we can get involved again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThere were two or three components on the Supplementary Order Paper in the name of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rick Barker, that, like my colleague Tony Ryall, disturb me. One of the questions he asked\u2014and it is one that I think we need to examine in more detail\u2014is why is it that airlines are allowed to get prior information about persons of interest, when this issue was brought to the attention of the Law and Order Committee and rejected. I have here, and I will share it with the Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c57ff3bfbbfd4dd3bb165a0f238d5ef8\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Bring back Maurice Williamson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257b5908aa44d496abf64711548dc6d63\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: If he wants to take another call, he will. We will be here until morning, so the Minister should just hold his horses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277e1ea8f9f2a48bb889a0ad55029d6da\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s in no hurry to go back to Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257d0c2428ba549babba22ca2edd7f57b\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not. Let us just carry on. The Board of Airline Representatives of New Zealand presented to the select committee and said this: \u201CWe ask the committee in consideration of the bill to seek from the departments an assurance that the need for early advice to the affected airline with respect to travellers of interest is understood and will be implemented as part of the procedures that are put in place.\u201D I draw that to the Committee\u2019s attention because the select committee rejected that suggestion. We were not satisfied about how that information might be used. This is a very serious issue. The select committee rejected it because we were not satisfied as to how that information might be used by the airline\u2014that is, for commercial reasons, the breaking of privacy laws\u2014but the Minister, thumbing his nose at the select committee recommendation, has now moved it on a Supplementary Order Paper. That is one issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe second issue of note is one that my colleague Maurice Williamson was speaking about, and that is the way in which people can be identified\u2014a person\u2019s full name, aliases, etc. The one thing that is missing from the list is an IRD number. If there was concern as to who a person using an alias was, then if the IRD number was there all one would have to do is simply cross-reference. So just by pushing a button on a computer it could be instantly known whether it was the right person. Removing aliases and not having an IRD number in place is just setting up the legislation to fail from the outset. That is a significant flaw that I would like the Minister in the chair to address. My specific question to him is: why are IRD numbers not included as an identifier? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to address the issue of no Crown liability for third parties for fines enforcement action. I can understand that, but what happens if the Crown acts in such a way that it is responsible for a monumental mistake? What is an analogy? It could be making a huge mistake, like getting Kyoto wrong. Let us say that it was wrong by $1.3 billion. Would the Crown have any responsibility for that? Who was the Minister responsible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281f084924a07421bae115e8a9c3dbc83\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, probably Minister Hodgson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a9c9b2092084243a6ffc782c2e6f35b\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: It would not be him now. If he was the Minister who made that mistake, he would not still be in that position would he? [Interruption] It went well, did it not? Someone must take responsibility for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe point is if there is an error of that magnitude, who will take responsibility for it? Surely the Crown has to take responsibility if it makes a mistake of that magnitude. The next point is that if the Crown is not taking responsibility and there is a whole lot of aggrieved passengers floating around, will that responsibility be driven back to the airlines? Will they be asked to take responsibility? Is the Crown doing what it does best\u2014if we use the analogy of Kyoto again\u2014or will the airlines have to wear that liability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00226078614071de4047a461f407e85f6a7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226078614071de4047a461f407e85f6a7a\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220659b53de224412ca227e556d0b3a363\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 7; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 37\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 20; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000582\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 15 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000583\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (a)(i) of the definition serious default in section 141AD of the Immigration Act after the words \u201C(or any other\u201D, the word \u201Clesser\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000584\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000585\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to the amendment to clause 15, to omit paragraph (b) of new section 141AE(4) of the Immigration Act, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000586\u0022\u003Eto omit this amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022799ee4d9b2664911b84f753e85eabf46\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 25\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 20; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 79\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 12; United Future 7; Green Party 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000587\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to an amendment to clause 15 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000588\u0022\u003Eto insert in proposed new section 141AG of the Immigration Act the following new subsection:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000589\u0022\u003E(3A)\tNo person concerned with the movement of persons out of New Zealand may supply to any other person or entity any information supplied to that person under this section.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224004e7893e6f4b5283ab8af4fc26e76d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 25\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 20; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 79\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 12; United Future 7; Green Party 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000590\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000591\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a7f77185b5d4f4b904ffc1f5571bb42\u0022\u003EPart 5  Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 1978\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227f8ed5cca20441a185dd3dce7b1b6c71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f8ed5cca20441a185dd3dce7b1b6c71\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has introduced the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill to try to improve the collection of outstanding fines. The debt mountain was below $300 million at the start of this Government\u2019s term, and has grown to an estimated $650 million today. The estimated outstanding debt\u2014fines that are not under any payment schedule\u2014is $330 million. That is an awful lot of money, and that is why this Government is making these changes to the legislation. The Opposition says the changes do not go far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EPart 5 makes changes to the Misuse of Drugs Act, to give new powers to registrars and deputy registrars in respect of the enforcement of fines imposed by the High Court. I ask the Minister to take a call and explain exactly how the new provisions of this bill will apply to people who may be subject to the various orders issued under the Proceeds of Crime Act. People who receive convictions under that Act can be subject to various orders. What will this Government do to prevent people who are subject to proceeds of crime orders, and who have not satisfied those orders, from travelling overseas? Those people are serious fines defaulters, who have been required by the authorities to provide assets for sale under the proceeds of crime legislation. They should not be leaving the country if they have not paid the money, because they are evil people who have sold drugs to our young people. They should not be allowed out of the country while they have outstanding fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhich provision in this bill will stop those people from leaving? Which provision in this bill will deal with drug dealers in the same way we deal with speedsters? A speedster with more than $5,000 worth of fines and an arrest warrant out will be prevented from getting on a plane, but a drug dealer with outstanding orders under the proceeds of crime legislation can get on a plane and fly off to Bali or Thailand. What will be done to stop that? The Opposition agrees with what has been proposed in Part 5, but says it could go further. I ask the Minister to tell us what he is doing to stop people who are subject to an order under the Proceeds of Crime Act from getting on a plane and flying out? Those people should meet their obligations, because of the evil they have perpetrated on young New Zealanders. They should not be allowed out of the country until the order has been completely satisfied. I think that is quite an important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI would also like the Minister to explain why the system sometimes makes it so difficult for people to pay their fines. People ring me up, or come to my electorate office, who say that they have been trying to pay their children\u2019s fines, but that they cannot get any information on what is outstanding and how they can pay it. I have constituents who have rung the department and said they want to pay their son\u2019s fines, and the department has said it is sorry, but it cannot talk to them about their son\u2019s fines. People who want to reduce the debt mountain are being turned away by the Minister\u2019s department. They ring the call centres or they go into the courts, and they say they want to make payments on behalf of their son. The parents ask how much the son owes and whether they can make a contribution. The departmental officials say they cannot tell those people anything about the fines, and that they must deal with their son. If the constituent says the son is overseas, the officials say that is too bad. The department is effectively saying that it does not want the money. Why does the department make it so hard to pay fines? I have had two cases in the last 2 months of parents trying to pay their kids\u2019 fines, but they have not had any cooperation from the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ECan the Minister take a call and tell me two things. First, how are we dealing with people who, under the proceeds of crimes legislation, may have various orders outstanding? What are we going to do to prevent them from leaving the country? Secondly, why is it made so hard for parents who want to pay their kids\u2019 fines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00227ddc3f976fae4faead5239a8015e6342\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ddc3f976fae4faead5239a8015e6342\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is with some pleasure that I rise to speak on Part 5. I want to follow on from my colleague. It is absolutely bizarre that we have this situation now. Surely the Minister will take a call and explain this to the Committee. People come into constituency clinics to see us, and they run through a range of issues. They do that with me on a regular basis. I have constituency clinics in the north and south of my electorate, which are about 4 hours apart when driving between the two locations. People often come in and raise this issue. In fact, the very good member for Bay of Plenty reminded me of it. Someone may have a son, a daughter, or a relative who, for whatever reason, has a fine. It might be a minor offence in some cases, such as a speeding ticket or a parking ticket\u2014it is probably not a parking ticket because parking infringements are handled by the local council\u2014or a small fine for something or other. That person finds it enormously difficult to clear the fine on behalf of the person who owes it. The person who owes the fine has to front up and identify himself or herself with photographic identification in order to clear the fine. How bad is that! A person wants to clear a debt on behalf of another person, but under the Privacy Act as it stands at the moment he or she is not allowed to be given that information. I say to the Minister that that surely must be able to be fixed at the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ECan I also touch on a couple of points that were made earlier. I am sure I will be able to link them into Part 5, if we look hard at them. I refer to the aliases and the area of concern that was raised. I share with the Committee a simple example. I went recently to a firm in Taranaki, to whom within the last month I had paid a substantial amount of money\u2014an amount of four or five figures. I bought some goods, and the staff members said to me: \u201CWe don\u2019t appear to have an account in your name, Mr Ardern.\u201D I said: \u201CHave you looked under Philip Shane Ardern, or P S Ardern?\u201D. They said: \u201COh, no. Philip Shane Ardern. We weren\u2019t aware of that. Where did that come from?\u201D. I said: \u201CWell, that\u2019s the name I was given at birth, and that\u2019s the name we operate under. It is P S and C J Ardern.\u201D Of course they looked on their computer and there was the account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe Minister might shake his head, but I could turn up at the airport with a ticket bought in the name of Shane Ardern, MP for Taranaki \u2013 King Country. The airline staff could look on their computer and their information would say \u201CPhilip Shane Ardern, farmer from Taranaki\u201D and I could be caught by that, under the clauses in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226395f7bd849c434cb2ec660c0cfda2ba\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: Arrest him. He owes some money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241c091164df049dabe3bbd767d58114e\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Government members are interjecting. I ask the Minister whether he can name the former leader of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1e3b553b79641c69908812303e9afba\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Jim Bolger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4be082648bb462dba10953bc04daa01\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No, he is one but I am talking about the immediate past leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ff325e006a54626a24b36aece843281\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Rob Muldoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227498a0aff043431eb25f447b320c6c06\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No, he is not the immediate past leader. Get with it. He has been gone for a couple of years, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231149743c0914ced839e4555d4a6c0e4\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Jack Marshall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0d730bca7a40859df70af25c905ff3\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No, the immediate former leader of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b631b1f261ac4493a2ed2abaf8322ade\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f47c1566c9944bf8bfd7d3cde65672c\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague says \u201CBill English.\u201D Well, he is wrong. It is actually Simon William English. Who knew that? Simon William English could turn up at the airport and he could be caught under the provisions in the clauses in this bill. I say to the Minister: \u201CHow good is that?\u201D. He might be going to Australia, like Richard Barker could be. He could get caught by that. I say to the Minister that he should leave in the alias provision, instead of taking it out in the way that he has, and then reduce the ability for the Crown to abscond, as it were, with no liability if it were to get that wrong, as my colleagues have put forward previously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ECan I say to the Minister, as we seriously debate this bill, that we do need to have a look at Part 5 and what it means when it says it is going to amend the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 1978, called the principal Act in this part. What is it that the Minister or the ministry are trying to achieve in their amendment? What are the potential unintended consequences? Once again, as has been stated earlier, one of those unintended consequences could be that we have a drug dealer in this country whom of course the authorities would want to have knowledge of, and he could get through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00227cd3fe87ef52435a941388f997d77bc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cd3fe87ef52435a941388f997d77bc4\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up where my colleague Shane Ardern left off. I really need the assistance of the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, to get through this. When reading clause 16, which relates to the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 1978, I cannot remember as a member of the select committee why this is being done. I know that the Minister in the chair is all-knowledgable. I would be grateful if he could get to his feet, take a call, and explain to the Committee why it is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df9a6aa141614b95a56c7a739632a644\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: It enables fines imposed by the High Court to be collected by officers of the District Court. Currently, fines of the High Court can be collected only by officers of the High Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f994bebf85f4619b5597d6de623ab34\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: So why the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act? Why does it go to that principal Act? [Interruption] I understand. I thank the Minister for the clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a20f871031e643139a5ea4869f3bcdda\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: This is improving our efficiency in collecting the fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1a2faca73f419ebb6643dc1518d2da\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the Minister\u2019s answer and I thank him for it. I am not sure I agree with his conclusion, but I am pleased that he attempted to clarify that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EWhat is of concern to me, though, is the number of young kids in this country who have significant fines against their names, the efforts that they go to to clear their name, and the sheer red tape and bureaucracy they run into in trying to do that. As a constituency MP\u2014and I am sure the Minister in the chair will be able to identify with this\u2014I am faced all the time with parents bringing their kids into my office and saying: \u201CLook, Johnny did this. He didn\u2019t mean to. He understands it was an error. He\u2019s trying to clear his fines now, but he\u2019s having difficulties. How do we go about it? Can you help?\u201D. It is easy to give advice, but I find it very difficult to counsel these kids as to how to go about getting out of trouble. It is becoming a very perplexing issue. More and more kids are getting into these sorts of situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe other issue on my mind\u2014and I see it from an employer\u2019s perspective, through having talked to owners of businesses, and having experienced it myself\u2014is the number of employees who have the amount of fines they owe collected from their wages, and the trouble that employers go through to try to collect it. Something I see happening regularly happened just last week to a friend of mine who has a factory. The employee, who was otherwise a good employee, decided in the end that it was all too hard. He said: \u201CI just can\u2019t meet these obligations.\u201D, and he vanished. He is owed wages, but my friend does not know how to contact him. He has no idea where his employee has gone. He has just gone into the ether. It is quite possible that the guy has left the country. It is not that this person is bad. He had a very good work ethic, I am led to believe, but unfortunately everything just got too much for him. If someone could have sat down with that young fellow, counselled him, and helped him through that bureaucratic nightmare, he might have met his obligations, and then been in a position to make a constructive contribution to New Zealand society in the broader sense. He is not a bad young man; that is the emphasis I would like to leave the Committee with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe other issue is the definition of \u201Cserious default\u201D. It refers to a person who owes an amount of $1,000 or more, or any amount of reparation, and for whom there is a warrant of arrest. One would think that meant there is an obligation on that person, as soon as he or she is confronted by the authorities, to pay that money and meet that obligation\u2014working on the principle that if one owes money, one pays it. But we have been told here today, and it has been reinforced by a number of speakers, that the only obligation the authorities have if a person meets those criteria is to activate the silent alert to notify that this is a person of interest. What sort of signal does that send? Why is someone who owes less than $1,000 of less interest than someone who owes $5,000? One either owes the money or does not owe the money. I know that the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, will argue that it is all about expense-to-income ratios and whether collecting it is worth it, but the point is that it sends the wrong signals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00228fd98aa227c24d2fadbb80da4e99a820\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fd98aa227c24d2fadbb80da4e99a820\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022474036745a7049a49e0f90d0162879e4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 7; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 19; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202f8fbfa8f334113aef14c502706adf2\u0022\u003EPart 6  Privacy Act 1993\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002286cc7edb1c1c4970b6d75c6129145039\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286cc7edb1c1c4970b6d75c6129145039\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Part 6, which I think should take a reasonable amount of time to debate, because I would hate to have to write a whole lot of extra amendments in order to get some points made, is in respect of the Privacy Act 1993. Currently, section 103 of the Privacy Act prohibits these agencies from taking adverse action against any individual on the basis of a result produced under a data-matching programme, unless that agency has given the individual written notice of the adverse effect that may be taking place. So what is being proposed in this bill is that we pass a law that allows the authorities to use that information immediately. It means that people who will be stopped at the airport can be arrested and dealt with. Remember that that will be only 117 people a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhen it was introduced, this so-called get-tough bill from the Government provided that only 35 fines defaulters a year would be stopped at the airport. Following some pressure from the Opposition, the Government has dropped the threshold, which means that 117 of our country\u2019s worst fines defaulters are stopped when they get to the airport, and they will be expected to pay back $1.5 million. It is not a lot and it does not go very far. What is being proposed here is to give the power to the individual bailiff or police officer to arrest somebody using a warrant to arrest that has been granted. The only way a fines defaulter can be stopped at the airport under Labour will be if there is a warrant out for that person\u2019s arrest. Forget the 25,000 people who owe fines over $5,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4c8421eb165409e8daedb1e10827466\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e7576f750b740959dc3057075432d55\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: There are 25,000 people who owe fines over $5,000. Only 500 of them have an arrest warrant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44274cc0109488fbe006dcf0767fb0f\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: The others might be paying them off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4f6e326ae0149ff89a2a92a17e80677\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I doubt it. Of those people, 500 have an arrest warrant, and they are the people whom this legislation, apparently, will target. Of those 500 people, a maximum of 117 are expected to be caught. What is being provided in this part is power for people to deal with them. What will happen is that a serious fines defaulter, who has an arrest warrant out and at least a $5,000 fine, will turn up at the airport and check in. Little silent alerts will run through the system. That person will go through immigration, and he or she will be pulled aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat will the police officer and the bailiff do? Will they say: \u201CYou owe $5,000. You owe reparation. You\u2019re not going on that flight to London until you pay your fines.\u201D? Is that what will happen? The provision in this bill should be what worries people. They can go and confirm that the fine is being paid or that an arrangement to pay has been made. If fines defaulters can say that, and if they can show that they have, or will make, an arrangement for their fines, then off they go to London. If they can just say to the bailiff that they will make a deal where they pay it back at $20 a week, off they can go to London. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EHow ridiculous is this? Under our Labour liberal justice system, a woman who defrauded to the extent of $120,000 is being allowed to pay off that debt at $20 a week. It will take her 107 years to pay off her debt. That is the sort of nonsense we are seeing under this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI tell members that I do not expect that 117 people will be turned away, because what they will do under this Government\u2019s liberal system is to say that they will pay back their debt at $20 a week, and the authorities will let them go off on the plane, when the whole purpose of the legislation is that if they can afford an airfare, they can afford to pay back some, if not all, of their fines. If they can afford an airfare, they should be paying their fine or the restitution they have been ordered to pay to their victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022869c71ff60d745f49c05e460b2a9dbd4\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: A Freedom Air ticket could be a lot less than your fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adebe6112ce34f2094eb2fc6967c73ea\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: A Freedom Air ticket could be a lot less than a fine, but I would rather see that ticket price of $189, with conditions, paid to the victim of a crime or paid to the Crown in punishment, than see it going to the airline. That is the point here. This stuff needs to be tighter. Why are we not making changes to the Privacy Act so that parents can go and pay their kids\u2019 fines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002296c0d6a9843b4afbb8b61c997db2ebd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296c0d6a9843b4afbb8b61c997db2ebd6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E As I listened to the honourable member, those facts astounded me. I hope I heard him right. He said that over 25,000 people in this country have overdue fines of over $5,000, and this bill, if I have it correctly, is effectively targeting 117 of them per year. I ask the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, what he will do about the 24,883. Nothing! He has gone blank. He does not have a clue what the Government will do about the 24,883.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022370d09237e3d47c7bb3800fea877c928\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re pursuing them relentlessly. Many of them are already paying their fines off piece by piece. Under arrangement to pay is at a record level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212602d7660364016a556d6ebd7e86b90\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he has a lot of confidence in arrangements to pay. I tell the honourable member that if he owed me $10, and I could not find him, I would ask his colleagues where he was, and they would tell me. [Interruption] I will put it the other way round. If I owed him $10, he would probably ask my colleagues where I am, and nobody would worry about telling him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E There is a very simple solution to address the problem in total\u2014never mind the 117, but the whole 25,000 people with overdue fines of over $5,000. It is very simple. When people get a fine, it should be part of the understanding that if it is not paid by a certain date, they will lose their privacy privileges, totally. On the date when the privileges expire, the data-matching process would come into play. All Government agencies would have access to their information\u2014from their Inland Revenue Department number to their telephone number, their address, and any aliases. People would lose the right to privacy. It is a very, very simple solution, and the choice is not the Government\u2019s\u2014the Government is not imposing anything. The choice is that of the person who owes the Government money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf guys are getting away with owing that amount of money, that is absolute daylight robbery. It sends the wrong message to law-abiding New Zealanders, and the Minister knows it\u2014in his heart he knows it. He knows he would like to target the 24,883 people, not just the 117. A simple way to do it is to put a little notation on the bottom of a judge\u2019s order that if a fine is not paid by such-and-such a day, the Government has the right to data match all of the individual\u2019s personal data, no matter what. The situation will be permanent unless he or she pays the fine. If the individual wants to clear the backlog and get back to being treated like a normal citizen who has his or her privacy respected, maybe the Government will say that it will not charge a fee. That would encourage people to pay their fines on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses just one tiny little aspect of the problem. When I heard today that outstanding fines total over $650 million, I was absolutely appalled. I looked at the pro rata tabulation in the commentary on the bill, and I saw that it simply calculates that of the $650 million owed, in the vicinity of $400 million relates to fines that have been overdue for some considerable amount of time. I looked at figures my colleague Ron Mark gave me some time ago that showed how much people owe. This Government is stuffing around and blowing against the wind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f917c9222f96491f810b315d4fd21281\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: It must be true if Ron gave it to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8ed1728bfb747188735f02d6c687c2f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not for one moment think the member is saying my colleague was not telling the truth. He would not dare to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00223ff3303146444732a6c4a623ad974f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ff3303146444732a6c4a623ad974f9e\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I come back to this issue of whether this legislation will work. The privacy issue is one reason why we can see that it absolutely will not work, at all. It comes back to the issue of forcing everyone to be nice to each other, before we even get round to trying to get money off them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIf we look at section 103(2A), inserted by clause 19, we see that a bailiff or member of the police cannot execute a warrant to arrest an individual unless that person has been informed of the intention to execute it. The police could get a warrant then find out the person is going off on an overseas trip. A police officer could ring up the person and say: \u201CWell, Mr Richard Barker, I hate to have to tell you, but when you get to the airport we are going to execute this warrant.\u201D When the police get there, before executing the warrant they would have to give the person the opportunity to confirm whether he or she was the individual named in the warrant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EHow will that work when we have already, with a previous Supplementary Order Paper amendment, removed the opportunity to share information regarding aliases? It is well known that crims use aliases all the time. When they are arrested they give a false name. We heard a few examples before. We could have \u201CMyrtle Ardern\u201D and all sorts of aliases being used. Getting rid of the aliases provision and bringing in the Privacy Act wipes out the whole way that this legislation can even be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe Hon Tony Ryall drew our attention, in the debate on the last part, to the fact that we will try to catch people who have racked up traffic or parking fines, etc., but he also asked about those people who are fined in the High Court for selling drugs. We have this Customs and Excise Act, so what about the people who are fined\u2014if they are ever brought before the court\u2014for downloading child pornography on the Internet? I say \u201Cif they are ever brought before the court\u201D because we have such a useless and hopeless Minister of Police. Not only does he sit around and wait until Time magazine humiliates this country in front of the rest of the world about the number of paedophiles here known to be downloading child porn on the Internet\u2014and the information was handed to us on a plate by Interpol\u2014but he still sits there and does nothing. When he finally does do something, will those people be prosecuted under the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act, which the Government has just tightened so that such people can be imprisoned? No. They will be prosecuted under the Customs and Excise Act, which relates just to importing indecent and objectionable material. Such people probably will not even fall under the category in this bill, because the fines they get are so pathetic. They will be able to go off to Thailand, get more of those child videos and indecent films, bring them back, and distribute them on the Internet. They will not even be caught under this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI come back to the issue I raised before of the cost-benefit analysis. My colleagues in the National Party kindly provided me with the facts on that. It is unbelievable that we are spending this time in urgency to pass legislation that to all and intents and purposes looks good, and looks like it will do a lot, but that, as we find when we drill into it, will be very lucky to catch even the 117 people we talked about before. We are putting everything in our way, to assist those people. Members should look at this. In the first year it is estimated that we will collect $1.5 million, but that it will cost us $1.7 million to do that. It is just like the old Liable-parent Contributions Scheme that was set up. The Government is still hopeless at collecting money owed under that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022451a3ab008844a95b0de0973305e423b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022451a3ab008844a95b0de0973305e423b\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I would for a moment remind the Committee that we are talking about Part 6 of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill, and touch on a couple of the issues raised in that part, particularly around the Privacy Act. Before I do that, I also remind the Committee that the amount of outstanding fines is, apparently, according to all the information I have been given, somewhere around $650 million. We should bear in mind Dr Michael Cullen\u2019s keenness, through the taxation laws and suchlike\u2014and we debated one of those laws in the Chamber a couple of days ago\u2014to close every loophole in terms of the taxation system. We have pages and pages of regulation and ways to catch the overseas crooks who get away with New Zealand\u2019s hard-earned tax. So we would expect that when it comes to the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill, and particularly to the discussion around the Privacy Act, the Misuse of Drugs Act, and that kind of legislation, the Minister would apply the same kind of standard that he applies in the taxation legislation. But what do we have instead? What we have today is 25,000 people with outstanding fines of over $5,000. The Minister, the roaring Dr Michael Cullen, who is keen to make sure that every loophole is closed, has stumped up with what one can only describe as a wet bus ticket. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhat sort of signal does that send to society? Hard-working individuals who run small businesses and battle away day and night, good community mums and dads, and \u201CJoe Hard-worker\u201D from New Lynn\u2014and I see that the member for New Lynn is here\u2014will be clobbered by the Government, which will get its hands so deeply into their pockets that they will potentially find life pretty difficult. But when it comes to crims who run up endless speeding tickets or other kinds of fines and do not bother to pay them, the Government will make some minor adjustments to the Customs and Excise Act, the Privacy Act, and other such Acts so that it can collar them if they front up at the airport\u2014and the estimate is that about 117 of these people per year may do that\u2014and they may have to pay their fines. But the Government will make sure that they are not collared if the fine is less than $5,000. If people owe less than $5,000, the Government will not bother about them\u2014they can walk straight through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe Minister now has an opportunity to amend the Privacy Act, to allow information to flow freely between departments in order to help to catch those who would use the various clauses, loopholes, and suchlike in various bits of legislation to escape the obligation to pay their fines\u2014fines that have been set by the Parliament of New Zealand, which is the representative of all in New Zealand. I ask the Minister to take a call and explain why he does not take the opportunity to make some amendments during the Committee stage to ensure that those crooks are caught and made to pay their fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI tell the Minister again\u2014because I do not think the message got through last time\u2014that in the constituency clinics I have attended recently, people have told me what has happened when they have tried to pay a fine on behalf of their son, brother, auntie, mother, or whoever the relative is. They have fronted up to whichever of the various agencies they think will be interested\u2014the courts, for example\u2014and have been told that the agency cannot give them the information they require, because the Privacy Act stops it from doing so. They have been told that they need to track down the person who owes the money, and get that person to turn up with photo ID and verify that he or she is who he or she claims to be. If all of that can be tidied up and the person who owes the money signs a paper, then the agency will accept that someone else can pay the fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ECan the Minister not see the irony and the double standard in what is going on there? Can he not understand that law-abiding, decent New Zealand citizens whom we want to encourage to get on and do well\u2014to help the Government, under its notion of how to collect tax\u2014are being penalised, while those who break the law, flout the law, and thumb their noses at the Minister are allowed to walk away scot-free? How is it that I can see that and the Minister cannot? What am I missing? Which aspect of this issue am I not picking up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022639829fec5e34796922aebcc8c0459c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022639829fec5e34796922aebcc8c0459c2\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Tainui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228b933b5699424d66b09a2aed3c328e5e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 8; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 19; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000652\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to Part 6, and the following amendments in his name to Part 6, be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000653\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1) of clause 19 after the expression \u201Csubsections (1A)\u201D, the expression \u201C, (1B),\u201D; \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000654\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of clause 20 the word \u201CSection\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000655\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of clause 20 the word \u201CSections\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000656\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a953914699d4b85b0ed1a60fb786eb2\u0022\u003EPart 7  Sentencing Act 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b19e6769f1a6458dbeaeaca256c244bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b19e6769f1a6458dbeaeaca256c244bd\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E This is quite serious; I cannot believe how quickly that last part went through. I would hate to think that that debate had been curtailed for any reason to do with the fact that we are here at 4.35 on a Friday afternoon and someone has some arrangements\u2014because this is a serious debate. The debate on Part 6 had gone for 20 minutes when Mr English, who had not participated in the debate previously, sought the call and was ignored. I would hate to think that that is what is going on. Frankly, this debate should go on a lot longer. Mr Tisch and, I hope, more Opposition members, will be down here contributing to it. I do not want someone\u2019s arrangements in his or her electorate curtailing the debate on Part 7 of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill, because it makes changes to the way in which people are paid reparation. At the moment, if someone has several reparation orders against him or her\u2014say that person has 10 reparation orders\u2014and pays $1 of reparation to the court, that $1 is split amongst the 10 people and they get 10c each. This bill proposes to set some rules for reparation. If, for example, someone\u2019s reparation orders all relate to the one circumstance\u2014if, for example, that person bashed up several people or burgled one house and got several reparation orders relating to that\u2014those orders will all be paid on a pro rata basis\u2014$1 is paid, and 10c goes to each person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EBut if the offender has a never-ending series of reparation orders, because he or she has smashed up people\u2019s property, belted people up, and stolen stuff from them, the reparation orders will now be paid in the order in which the offences took place. So the person with the oldest reparation order will be paid first, rather than getting only 10c. This means that every subsequent victim of the offender will have to wait. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis is a really big problem. We have a whole lot of career criminals whom this Government keeps letting out of prison on parole, who are continuing to offend. The House will be shocked to know that one individual has 92 orders to pay victims\u201492 reparation orders. About 20 people have over 40 reparation orders. A whole lot of bad people are getting out of prison early, having served one-third of their sentence, reoffending while on parole, and getting all these reparation orders\u2014huge numbers of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe amendments being made here are quite serious. We have close to 7,000 people who owe money under reparation orders to more than one person, so what is proposed is quite a serious amendment and quite a big change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party says that it is all very well for the Government to pass a bill that will change the order in which people who are owed reparation are paid, but let us do more to get the money in the door to start with. Over $22 million owed to victims of crime is going uncollected. Some of that debt is quite outstanding. Some of the debt that is owed in reparations has been outstanding for ages, and not enough is being done to collect it. I totally reject the proposals in Part 8 of this bill, which we will be talking about later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EA lot of people owe reparation. We are talking about huge amounts. Some people owe over $100,000 of reparation. Many owe over $2,000 of reparation. More should be done to get this money in. The Government is simply not taking advantage of every opportunity to get more information from Government departments to help locate these people. We should be telling the Inland Revenue Department to give us every piece of information it has that could help us locate these people. We should be telling the New Zealand Customs Service to give us every piece of information that it has in order to locate those people. It should be the same in respect of the Immigration Service\u2014every piece of information. We should not be limiting ourselves to phone numbers and addresses of current employers and of the individuals themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Government is not really very serious, because if it were serious, would it be bringing in a bill under urgency that would stop 117 people from getting on a plane? Maybe, or maybe not, because that is the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00228958072969184272b533dae080d16205\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228958072969184272b533dae080d16205\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be able to talk on Part 7, having been a recipient of reparation. Having received those letters in the mail so long after the offence occurred that I could not remember what it was about, I then received, even more months later, some single-figure amount. The reparation that I am talking about related to a young man who went about the Invercargill Airport car-park smashing car windows. I have to say I was reasonably impressed that someone found him, that he went to a family group conference, and that anything happened at all. I think the people involved deserved some credit for that. I am sure that his case was one that would have been considered when a policy for Part 7 was being considered. A lot of windows were smashed, and even if that young man paid what I imagine to be several hundred dollars\u2014maybe $400 or $500\u2014so many windows were smashed that we were all recipients of quite a small amount of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EAlthough the detail of this provision will continue to be debated in the Committee stage, I think we need to acknowledge that under the current Government no one who is involved in criminal activity feels any particular pressure or obligation to pay anything for any reason. That is why $22 million of outstanding reparations is owed to victims, and that is on top of the figure that appalled me, which was that there is $640 million in unpaid fines\u2014a much larger number than it was 4 or 5 years ago, and involving not only a good number of hardened criminals but tens of thousands of people. It is quite clear that the measure in Part 7, as with those in Part 6, is intended to try to turn a tide that has built up momentum and will not be turned by those particularly detailed measures. That tide is the tide of slackness and unconcern that the Government has about the effects of criminal behaviour, particularly on the victims of criminal behaviour. If $22 million is owed to victims, then I agree with my colleague Mr Ryall that the Government ought to be doing a great deal more to get that money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe problem with the reality of someone having 92 reparation orders is that it undermines the integrity of the whole system. Victims will have faith in the process only if they see it being prosecuted vigorously. In my case, I was surprised that anything happened at all, and it must have taken some 18 months. I would have to say that my faith in the forces of law and order would have been much greater\u2014in fact, I would have been impressed\u2014if something had happened within a few months, or even within 4 or 5 months. As it happened, it took about 18 months. That is why the Government is having to run around with measures like Part 7 and, previously, Part 6, trying to stick its finger in the dyke and trying to bring some credibility to a system in which victims and criminals do not believe that the people who run those systems and who provide political leadership really take them seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo I suppose that it is with some grudging acceptance that we note that the Government is making some changes here. Those changes may make some difference. It is possible that some victims will get more reparation out of this measure, but it is only trying to slice up in a different way the relatively small proportion of reparation orders that are actually fulfilled. People are not going to feel any overwhelming need or pressure to fulfil those orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002225c25d58dcca4e359402ae3763a3da31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225c25d58dcca4e359402ae3763a3da31\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I can understand why the Government wants to put this measure through under urgency, because when one studies what the Government is doing, one sees that it is basically saying to Parliament that we need to change the law because the present system is not working. If I am reading this part correctly\u2014the ACT party was not on the Law and Order Committee\u2014it appears to me that the problem is this. Crime is running out of control, and there are repeat offenders. A person who has committed an offence and been ordered to pay reparation may commit another offence in order to pay that reparation, and that person then cannot afford to make the two reparation payments. So we now have a system to decide the order in which the payments should be made. I think that that is the purpose of Part 7. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EOf course, the Government is not asking a much more basic question: how is it that we have a criminal system whereby people, despite having been caught, having gone through the court system, and having had a penalty imposed on them, then go out and commit another crime? I think Mr English put his finger on one of the reasons, which is the length of time it takes between being convicted and going through the court system. He mentioned his case, and that causes me to say that I know of one as well. I had the misfortune to be burgled in October last year. The offender was caught. I received a note from someone in the police called the victim support person\u2014I have often felt like a victim, but it was nice to get a letter from that nice person\u2014who told me that the offender had finally been sent to jail 10 days ago. In fact, I received a note asking me to ring the police. I thought: \u201COh my God!\u201D; I had completely forgotten about the burglary. The burglar was a relatively young man who had committed a string of offences, which is why he had been sent to jail. But the point is, as Mr English said to us, the offence was committed so long ago that he could not really empathise with it\u2014and Mr English is a mature man. To an 18-year-old, 6 months ago seems like forever, and that would be a very quick processing time after an offence is committed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI have been to New York and looked at how the police there have changed their system. I saw people who had been arrested that morning be processed by the court that day. They were going to be on the streets that afternoon, having to pick up litter while wearing a sign that stated: \u201CManhattan community court\u201D. That would make some progress. If we had a system whereby people were being charged and processed within a day\u2014as the Americans can do\u2014and were then being required to do reparation that day for an offence that had been committed against someone on the previous day, that system would work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say to the Government that we all know this bill will not work. We know that the earlier provision will cost more money to put in place than we will collect back in fines, and I do not believe that anyone in the Committee, including the wettest Government member, actually thinks that setting out a priority order in which people have to pay back reparations will somehow result in a better criminal system. It will not. Even the Government knows that, which is why it is putting it through on Friday afternoon, and hoping that nobody is listening to this debate. What we actually need is some fundamental reform of our legal system. We know that $650 million worth of fines is outstanding, and also $900 million worth of liable parent contributions, and $22 million worth of reparation. The figure for reparation seems to me to be a very low figure, and I suspect that it is wrong. I suspect that the real figure is much higher than that. But the Government is uninterested in reparation, because those payments actually go to citizens, and not into the greedy Government\u2019s coffers. I suspect the real figure for reparation is far higher than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say to the Committee that we will not vote against this measure, because it will not make things worse. But it certainly will not make them any better, either, and no victim will feel better to learn that he or she cannot be paid back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022627e5f6de4614d43a2332c76c3e5da6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022627e5f6de4614d43a2332c76c3e5da6b\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting to listen to that previous contribution, because a lot of very sensible advice was given to the Minister for Courts. I noticed that the Minister was not taking much notice, but he should probably be reminded of a few figures, because I doubt whether he understands them. My colleague the Hon Tony Ryall mentioned them earlier. Outstanding at the present time are 92 reparation orders that affect 7,000 people and total $22 million\u2014but the Hon Richard Prebble has said that he suspects that that figure is not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that prior to this bill being debated under urgency, we had the debate on the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2). People from all parties were in the Chamber, roaring like lions about what could be done in that regard. Some of them are Government supporters on most occasions, but they were opposing what could be done\u2014so they supported the terrorists, I guess one could argue. But those who will go out in the next election campaign, stand on podiums, thump the table, and talk about what they will do in terms of law and order, catching crims, and suchlike, have an opportunity actually to do something here today, right now, in the Committee stage\u2014where the rubber meets the road, where the legislation is formed, where we have an opportunity to debate and amend the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill, and where we can actually do something about those crims. And what have we got? We have the ACT party taking calls to make contributions, and the National Party making contributions, but there is not a peep from anybody else. The only thing we have from Government members is the closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0594d28a5d41c9a3c581ebcc24b7f2\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s United Future, the \u201Ccommon-sense\u201D party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7af0886c5644208bcaf51bd1eb1637\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. My colleague asks about the \u201Ccommon-sense\u201D party, which was roaring up and down the country at last election, and was going to fix criminal law in this country. Its members are supporters of the Government, and they have the numbers to actually change the law now. They have the opportunity, but none of them is making a contribution to this debate at the moment. The Minister is introducing a wet bus-ticket process, and nobody is doing a thing about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I suggest to the Minister that in the Committee stage, at the moment, he should move an amendment that would actually do something about the matter\u2014as the Hon Richard Prebble said, something that would be meaningful with regard to developing an incentive for those who go out and commit crime to take some responsibility for their actions. This is a classic example of members talking tough and voting soft. It is the old Phil Goff approach\u2014talk tough, and vote soft. I tell the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, that he should make a name for himself, establish himself, and do something\u2014change the law right here and now, and make it a bit tougher for those crims. He should make them front up and pay what they are owing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EAs it stands at the moment, something like $22 million worth of outstanding fines is out there on the never-never. They may be processed at some stage, but people can pay \u201Cin order of preference\u201D. That is another bit of the legislation that is certainly not just, and justice does need to be seen to be done. We have people who have a string of criminal offences. One, as I said, has 92 reparation orders against him. The people towards the bottom of the preference heap may get 10c a week if they are lucky, and those even further down the line will get something in 50 years\u2019 time if the crim is still around and still able to pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister to take a call, and explain to us why he will not take the advice given to him by senior members of Parliament. My colleague Tony Ryall made quite a few good suggestions to him, about areas where he could do something, where it is possible to do something. The Minister will be campaigning in a month or so, saying he will do something, and here he can do something. I urge United Future members to get up, take a call, and tell the Minister what they would do in these circumstances, and if the Minister will not do it, they should withhold their vote so that he will do it. But \u201CDo something!\u201D is what I say to the Minister and to those other parties. I am wondering\u2014and I am sure others are\u2014why Keith Locke has not been down to take a call on this part, because clearly he had a great interest in the previous bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002282656782a24c4e3bb5efe18b0bc0fce1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282656782a24c4e3bb5efe18b0bc0fce1\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u002255b762a1132a4f7da2c2d3bd02c88cdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255b762a1132a4f7da2c2d3bd02c88cdf\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I have taken a great deal of interest in Part 7, and I have read the entire part verbatim, which is something members of Parliament do not often get the chance to do. It seems to me that it is one of the best examples of the situation when more than two full pages of a bill state just one simple thing. Maybe the Minister can tell me whether I have it wrong, but I believe that basically the part just states that if an offender has more than one reparation order out, and if the orders are for the same offence, then the payments to be made should be split equally amongst those who are owed. If the offender has orders for different offences, then they should be paid out in the order in which they occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister whether draughtspeople get paid by the word. I mean, why was it not possible to say in two sentences: \u201CWe will split the payments; and if it is the same offence the payments will be equal, and if it is one offence before the other, then the first offence gets paid out.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d9601c79594cd7b431a30f9f0cf719\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: They wouldn\u2019t want that to be public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a4e0c50fd0c4e118be6b62fe8671ca3\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, maybe they do not want that to be public. I do not quite know, but I have to say that when I read that, and when I look at legislation like this, I keep thinking: \u201CWhy do we encumber this place with such enormous volumes of verbiage, when in fact it is just a simple thing to say?\u201D. If that is not the case, then I would really like to know. The Minister could easily take a call to explain whether there is something more devious or more well hidden. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI notice that there is a lovely little section 145C, \u201CNo Crown liability for error, etc, in applying payments of amounts of reparation\u201D, inserted by clause 22. I have to say that that will increasingly become a common practice in this Government\u2019s legislation\u2014a clause that says there is no Crown liability for Government error\u2014because this week we have seen the biggest Government error that has ever occurred in this country, in the miscalculation of our Kyoto forest credits. The Government told us it was worth $500 million per year\u2014that is what Pete Hodgson said. He asked whether the National Party Opposition was prepared to tear up a cheque for $500 million per year. It turns out that it is actually a bill for $1 billion per year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI am sure that if any legislation is to surround the Kyoto Protocol, Marian Hobbs will be listening very carefully and looking at that section and saying that yes, it is a section she wants to put into any Kyoto legislation in the future. It states: \u201CNo Crown liability for error, etc,\u201D\u2014I love that \u201Cetc\u201D! It is not just for the errors\u2014it is for anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d2ce3752ed485cb7d30040007edd09\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Does it include stupidity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741081967b8042e69d066596b2bd70ff\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I guess that is a question we should ask this Minister\u2014does the \u201Cetc\u201D include incompetence, or sheer stupidity? Let us remember that if this goes to a court\u2014if there is an error on behalf of the Crown\u2014the judge will look at this section: \u201CNo Crown liability for error, etc, in applying payments of amounts of reparation\u201D. That is the heading. The actual provision states: \u201CThe Crown is not liable to any person for any error, omission, or delay in applying any payment of an amount of reparation in accordance with section 145A or section 145B.\u201D Section 145A and section 145B were the two sections I referred to before. They state that reparation is split equally if it is for the same offence to more than one person, and that it is split in sequential order to the first person and the second person. Honestly, how much belt and braces does the Minister need to give himself to keep the Government safe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ac9828b32eb44048454367fb8cb2254\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think it\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240927460ae404914acee159f465bc90b\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: In this Minister\u2019s case it is probably not. But I can see the gleeful look on Marian Hobbs\u2019 face. I know that she would have got on to officials immediately and said that she wants this provision in any Kyoto legislation in the future. The Crown will not be liable for any error of calculation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269c01c4844f34c4abfb1aec844cbf9db\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ca78d2dae3d43b5aa71d95073d7c83b\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Etc.! I am very tempted to move in a minute, if there is another speaker in this part, to add \u201Cany error, omission, delay, incompetence, or just sheer bungling, on behalf of the Minister\u201D. I think the courts may\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022174b2e053dff48b2a8f1a4207544cd75\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think \u201Cetc.\u201D is in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f39cfba0fb7341ddaa17d1cd8e636821\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is wrong; \u201Cetc\u201D is already in there. But I think \u201Cerror, omission, or delay\u201D, needs to have an extended list added to it, and I hope the Government will accept my amendments that incompetence and sheer, complete bungling on behalf of the Minister should also be a reason why there should be no Crown liability. Because if we are going to have the legislation the way it is, then surely that is what it is now. The Minister could easily tell us why it takes more than two full pages of a bill to state something that I think could be stated in two sentences flat\u2014in fact, common sense would say that if one were splitting reparations they should be split between two people if there are more than one person, or three people if there are more than two, etc. Why, if there was one order that existed from long ago\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afcc89b5f7c04a71933ea875a3b1ad57\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: What about four?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c14ab2e710b4111a889a7b24261c3e7\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Tisch is now testing me, because I know that the moment he wants me to answer in respect of four, there will be some bright spark who wants to take it to five, and beyond that I cannot count, so I am not going to get into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022c598ab72b69d451bbaaf3ae0b0a670bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c598ab72b69d451bbaaf3ae0b0a670bf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Communications):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b6b418aeeaa244209d7bfdce39c7d540\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 7; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 18; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000700\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to the amendment to clause 22, to omit and substitute new section 145B of the Sentencing Act, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000701\u0022\u003Eto omit from the heading to proposed new section 145B of the Sentencing Act 2002 the words \u201Cwhere entitlement to payments unclear\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000702\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000703\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to Part 7 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000704\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to, and Part 7 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d1e10fa4f36457a9fd8b376c12b06d3\u0022\u003EPart 8  Summary Proceedings Act 1957\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5c2bbb7c865445daf6fbc8e088dce00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5c2bbb7c865445daf6fbc8e088dce00\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak briefly to this part, in particular to the Supplementary Order Paper amendments, and in particular new clause 30AA. This clause was put forward because there have been some significant problems in the collection of fines because of the quality of information. This came to my attention when I read in the Auckland newspaper the mayor of Auckland complaining about the courts department owing money to Auckland City, and not paying its debts. I made inquiries into what this was. It was simply that Auckland City would issue parking infringements and the like, and because they were uncollectable\u2014no one would pay them\u2014they were forwarded on to the courts department for enforcement. The department was unable to collect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI went through these and I saw that, in large part, the department did not have the information. For example, a parking ticket or infringement notice might be issued to Mr John Smith, Balmoral Road. Well, it would be very, very difficult to track down J Smith on Balmoral Road\u2014no registration number, no date of birth, nothing. Effectively, that fine was uncollectable. By the time one gets halfway down Balmoral Road the people at the beginning of Balmoral Road have changed addresses and so on. One could go up and down Balmoral Road for the rest of one\u2019s life and never find any J Smith. So we have a large number of fines that are uncollectable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EElsewhere in the Supplementary Order Paper it provides that there will be a minimum data set that people have to supply\u2014date of birth and so on. If it is not supplied, the fines or infringement notice will not be accepted by the department for collection, because it is simply uncollectable. But this amendment was to tidy up some of those cases currently in the system, and it was supposed to be about information about identity and location. On examination of it more closely, I can see that there is a problem. It seems to me that if we know the identity of the person\u2014for example, my full name and my date of birth\u2014if we are convinced that we know who the person is, it should not matter how long it takes to locate him or her; the fines should remain. But by having the 3-year limit on locating a person, the identity issue falls by the wayside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EMy point is that the wording as it is would enable the registrar to wipe fines\u2014even if the identity of the person was known\u2014if the person was not able to be located within 3 years. That is not acceptable, and I withdraw new clause 30AA on that basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022101f1f50332b47b7829dcf93f19daaf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022101f1f50332b47b7829dcf93f19daaf2\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I am glad to see that the Minister has taken notice of the point I raised with him an hour ago, when I said that I was not prepared to accept that amendment and would make it absolutely clear to Ministry of Justice officials that after the change of Government the provision was never to be used. The clause is a shameful, sneaky means by which this Government was proposing to reduce the level of outstanding debts in this country. I know that was the plan. The Government is embarrassed about the unrelenting increase in the mountain of debt in this country. If that was not the plan\u2014if it was such a good idea\u2014why was it sneaked in by way of a Supplementary Order Paper and not brought to the Law and Order Committee, and why was it never explained to United Future? Why were the consequences of new clause 30AA never explained to United Future? The reason is the one I have given. I raised the issue of this clause with the Minister. I told him it was outrageous, and I am pleased he has given it away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDoes the Minister actually read these proposals? Does he actually read what is brought before him by his officials? The proposal was that even if the registrar of the court knew the name of the person and that person\u2019s location, then the registrar could, if he or she considered the fine uncollectable, wipe the fine after 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930bc336f8f141238766df53537cdc46\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: The registrar would be able to do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d31bf79b25e4c1f9bbea7be82bbcead\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the registrar could do it. We already know that judges have wiped $40 million worth of fines, but here the Government\u2019s proposal was to allow court registrars to wipe the fines of people whose names and addresses are known but whose fines are considered uncollectable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat amounts would that have meant? In the middle of last year the total amount owed in overdue fines that were over 3 years old\u2014which one could say were uncollectable\u2014was $140 million. If the Minister wants to make a name for himself as the Minister who wiped the ever-growing debt mountain, this is not the way to do it. I am pleased he is removing that clause. We may now find ourselves in a position of being able to support the progress of Part 8, but we were very concerned about what was proposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI wonder whether the Minister would take a call and say also whether he will allow support for my amendment to the amendment to section 88(3) of the principal Act, in respect of the amount of $5,000. We have provided for the Government to be able to decide that the threshold for stopping people at the airport should drop\u2014and we have put a limit on that, stating it cannot be higher than $5,000. So surely we should be allowing for some flexibility in respect of clause 30(1). I think that that should be done. [Interruption] Yes, and that it is the charging order change. I think that that is sensible, but I wonder about whether the $5,000 needs to be affected there, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIt really worries me with this Supplementary Order Paper that the Minister is prepared to yield about the sneakiness of new clause 30AA only at this late hour. What else is on this Supplementary Order Paper that he has not read and does not fully understand? What else has he read in here? Now that he has accepted what the consequences of new clause 30AA could have been, has he read the rest of the Supplementary Order Paper? Will he give an assurance that there are no other sneaky little things like that on it, where one changes a word here or there and completely changes the outcome of the bill? Will there be any of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac9896c978e4330a63e12b5355b6cff\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: There are no sneaky things on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285b17d45b48a4314aa5553c13a9518af\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: What was being proposed was simply outrageous\u2014that we could know the name and location of a debtor and wipe the fine as being uncollectable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c7814128e034346be65766bfee58868\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: No, you couldn\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022761d82bdfbb5445b821076a70e5d0933\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That was outrageous! That is what was being proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f051da7f13473e8a6959ad9725b5db\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not what was being proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767a1a33d79442ecab9b0bf0c19c70df\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The proposal was that an effort was to be made to locate information on the identity of the informant, so that the name of the fines defaulter could be known. It was going to be left there, and the debt was going to be written off. That is wrong. That debt should stay with those people. They should pay it back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhere are the Minister\u2019s ideas about actually paying the debt off? This bill is supposed to be about reducing the debt mountain. We know that when Labour came into office that the debt was less than $300 million. Today it is estimated to be $640 million. We know that the overdue amount itself is close to $340 million. The debt is going up, so what is the Government proposing to do about it? Is it asking the Customs Service to tell it everything it knows about debtors? No, it is not. Is it asking the Immigration Service to tell it everything it knows about the debtors? No, it is not. Is it asking the Inland Revenue Department to give it every piece of information that could help locate those debtors? No, it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat is the Government proposing to do in this bill? It is proposing that if a person owes more than $5,000, is subject to an arrest warrant\u2014which means the person has to be really bad\u2014and turns up at the airport, then he or she will be taken aside and asked to make an arrangement to pay back the loan. That person can then catch the flight to London. Twenty-five thousand people owe more than $5,000 in fines, and this Government says it will pass this legislation\u2014legislation that will affect 117 people\u2014under urgency on a Friday afternoon. When this bill was introduced with great fanfare from the Government as part of a great campaign to collect money, the officials revealed that it would affect only 35 people a year. Only 35 people would be stopped at the airport and asked to make an arrangement to pay back their loan at $20 a week, and then they would be allowed to go off. But the Opposition put the pressure on, and we are now up to 117 people a year who can be stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5c076563bf948a89930e764a333cf1e\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Two a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220156f0e4d9d744d1827497972193599a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is two a week, or one every 3 days. It is just outrageous\u2014one every 3 days. That figure would not be so bad if we thought we would collect many millions of dollars from them, but do people want to know what the officials said? They said that this bill will collect an extra $1.5 million a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f021217b9f04a0f8137e18fe22375e9\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: A week!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cec24eb8dbf4dd7931502de46786895\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014a year. We have a debt mountain of $640 million, and this bill will collect $1.5 million a year. That is outrageous. We should get serious about this. I will tell people what the first few steps the next National Government Minister for Courts will take. He or she will bring in amendments to provide that the Inland Revenue Department can make all the identifying information it can available to the collections service. In this bill, the department can provide only the name and address of the current employer. What if we were to have the name and address of the former employer, because the former employer may actually know where the person is living? But the Inland Revenue Department will not be asked to provide that information, although it would be asked to do so in my amendment to Part 9. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI suspect that the reason we are not taking every opportunity to get information to deal to those people is that the Government is very worried about their privacy. Why are we asking only the current employer? If a fines defaulter changes a job, the Inland Revenue Department will tell the collections agency who the current employer is. Well, what about the past employer? What about the people paying interest on the bank accounts of those people? They could provide information. Further information could be provided about those people. None of that is included in this bill. That is why National says that this is a wasted opportunity on a Friday afternoon and that this Minister could have done a lot more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe fact that at this late opportunity, and at this late time, the Minister is removing what would have been one of his centrepiece changes in Part 8 is very, very concerning. I am not sure that he is on top of his game, because we identified that issue very early on. We raised it with him and his officials, and now, an hour later, we find that the Government is backing away from its proposal completely. What it was proposing was outrageous. It was saying that a public servant should be able to wipe out tens of millions of dollars of fines, even though he or she knows the name of the fines defaulter, and in many cases might know where he or she is, and has not taken the steps to actually get that payment. That was outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EOther members on this side of the Chamber want to take the opportunity to talk about Part 8 and explain why we were concerned about new clause 30AA. They also want to talk about what better options the Government could have had to deal with the situation and why the Government is planning a multimillion dollar advertising campaign for these changes, when all it will collect, possibly, is $1.5 million from 117 people\u2014one every 3 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00229576e9f977e24d8c935b9154978ae944\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229576e9f977e24d8c935b9154978ae944\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to pick up on the challenge made by my colleague to the Government to tell us which Government members will stand on the podium in the election campaign and quote new clause 30AA in Part 8 of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill when they talk about how they are getting tough on crime. I wonder whether the honourable Minister will do that. I say to the Minister, Rick Barker, that this is his opportunity to make a name for himself in respect of that huge pile of debt. Under Part 8 he can do that. The Minister has already acknowledged that the Hon Tony Ryall has a few good ideas, and he has accepted one amendment. Why does he not use Part 8 to assert himself and actually do something? I am sure the Hon Dr Michael Cullen would be very pleased to get some more revenue. I know that he is a bit cash-strapped at the moment\u2014he keeps telling the public of New Zealand that things are tighter than the National Party would have them believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225ccc0ce4be84572bd9d3df2ba32c995\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s got Pete Hodgson doing his Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2b067e47d254ecba21ec088838d008b\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the problem, of course\u2014and it does not matter who does it on that side of the Chamber. That is certainly the case when it comes to getting the dough out of the crooks. The Government knows how to get it from the poor \u201CJoe Hard-worker\u201D Labour voter who is out there battling away\u2014and who will not be misguided enough to vote Labour again\u2014but it does not know how to get tough on the crooks. The Government always talks about getting tough and says that it will do so, as it campaigns up and down the country. I invite the Government to go out on the hustings in this election campaign\u2014which will kick off in a few days\u2019 time when Dr Cullen says he has had enough\u2014and say that it has fixed the problem of the mounting pile of debt by adding clause 30AA. Up to $650 million is owed through all those outstanding fines. The Minister has the opportunity to fix the problem, but he does nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is a wet bus ticket of a bill that we have here today. I guess we could say that it is progress and that it is incremental. It does represent the aspirational approach that we have seen from this Government. It shows the same kind of level of aspiration in terms of getting on top of this problem as the Budget shows in terms of getting New Zealand back into the top half of the OECD. At the end of this debate, when this legislation is passed by the Government, we will have a situation where 117 criminals will be caught at the airports. Of course, that means they will be kept in New Zealand, when it would be better if they actually got away and went somewhere else. The Minister will be able to retrieve a small amount of money from them. These crooks will be asked politely and treated with absolute courtesy and, once they have made arrangements to give the Government $2.50 or some such payment a month, they will be able to hop on an aeroplane, take off to London, and disappear into the sunset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister to take a call on this part of the bill and tell us why he has not exercised the power that has been bestowed upon him to get on top of what is clearly a major problem in his own portfolio. I ask the Minister to tell the people of New Zealand why the $22 million that is outstanding from those who are supposedly paying reparation is being paid off at the rate of $2.50 a week, $5 a week, or whatever it might be, in the order in which the offences occurred. He should tell people why that is so. He should tell people why 25,000 people out there at the moment have outstanding debts, and why the court system is writing off $40 million of that a year. He should tell people why that is so, and give them an explanation as to why the Government has concluded that that is how it should stay. He should tell the people out there why he believes that clause 30AA in Part 8 of the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill is absolutely consistent with the Government\u2019s policy to get tough on crime and make criminals pay for their crimes. He should tell the people out there why, when the Government does catch those 117 people at the airport, it will extract from them no more than $1.5 million per year, when the outstanding debt is $650 million. I ask the Minister to tell people why that is so, and I tell him that he is missing an opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00224aa0f76471454ad0a3d93d554c566702\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224aa0f76471454ad0a3d93d554c566702\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E When the Hon Bill English was speaking before, he put his finger on it when he said that this legislation was nothing more than the Government sticking its finger in the dyke. As I said, we are going to support the bill because it does not make things any worse. But we could do this legislation properly, instead of rushing it through in urgency. The Government should go back and see why crime is out of control, why so many millions of dollars are owed in fines, why $900 million are owed in liable parent contributions, and why, according to the Government\u2014if we are to believe it\u2014$22 million are owed in reparation. I find the latter figure very hard to believe. As someone said, if that money was going into the Government coffers, it would work much harder to get it. I cannot see why, if liable parents owe $900 million, criminals owe $22 million\u2014it is totally illogical to believe that. I would say that at least triple that is owed in reparation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIt is obvious from all the changes in Part 8 of the bill that the Government now has an enormous problem with regard to its automatic fines system. I am not at all surprised that it has problems with that. Someone else talked about a constituent who had tried to pay a fine for an adult child who had left the country, and that parent could not do so, because one has to have a PPN number and all sorts of other information, which totally bars one from paying off some of those fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI had a constituent come to me recently. She and her husband had split up, and as part of the matrimonial property settlement the husband had taken a car. Both cars had been in the wife\u2019s name, but he had taken one and she had taken the other. The husband, because he was quite a vindictive sort of fellow, decided not to reregister the car. He could park it anywhere he liked\u2014on loading zones, and all that sort of thing\u2014because he did not get the fines notices. They went to his ex-wife, who was being driven mad by all the fines that kept coming through, even though she did not have the car. She applied to the court, which told her to fill out a section 57B form, I think it was. All that did was go back to the issuing authority. She did not get a reminder notice, and then she got the fines again. She then rang the land transport licensing authority and said she did not own the car any more, but that it was actually with her ex-husband, and she told the authority what he was doing. The authority said that it could not force anyone to register a car, but it could take the car out of her name and note on the file that it was no longer in her name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EA few more months passed and a few more fines came in, and the Ministry of Justice rang her, as it does. It is quite good at ringing people these days, to remind them that their fines are overdue. She said that she did not owe the fines, that she was not using the car, and that it was not hers, and she asked the ministry to please go and repossess the car. I am talking about this case, Mr Chairman, because it comes under clause 30B, \u201CWarrant to seize property\u201D. That is absolutely no good at all. My constituent told the land transport licensing authority that the car was no longer in her name. The Ministry of Justice could not seize the car, because although the fines were in her name, the car was not. So my constituent will probably go to the airport and be arrested, or be told that she will get arrested, and she is one of the innocent people. The thing is that she will not be arrested, because she is actually an honourable citizen and she will pay the fines. She realises that she is trapped in a situation where the dispute is a civil dispute, not a criminal dispute, and so she will pay the fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ESo all the fines that are so outstanding, and that we are spending $1.7 million on in the first year in order to try to collect, at best estimate, $1.5 million worth, will not be a drop in the ocean, in terms of the huge problem we have. As somebody else has already said today, the way to fix the problem is to deal with it fast. We should not have such a delay in the justice system. The delays between a person\u2019s arrest and his or her first court appearance are far too long. The delays from the first court appearance to the final outcome are far too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00222b8510f8193d47beb62d552229dd3680\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b8510f8193d47beb62d552229dd3680\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002211946998b9494abd861f7f954e0d72d5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 7; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 18; New Zealand First 12; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2e365f3419c4cf2bfd3a85129b5d800\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2e365f3419c4cf2bfd3a85129b5d800\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to clarify my statement to the Committee earlier. I seek leave to withdraw proposed subsection (2) from new clause 30AA set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370. I wish to leave in subsection (3), which enables the registrar to make an order remitting a fine imposed if the registrar is satisfied the person is dead and the fine cannot be recovered from the person\u2019s estate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002234f0cf00a6da4d7b9c72702366f6ecce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234f0cf00a6da4d7b9c72702366f6ecce\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. The question is that Part 8 stand part, and we have a number of amendments. The first one is in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall. It is an amendment to omit subclause (2) from new clause 30AA set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370. That amendment is now out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to proposed new clauses 25C and 33E set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in his name be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 71(1B) of the Summary Proceedings Act 1957 in proposed new clause 25C the expression \u201C21(1)(b)\u201D, and substitute the expression \u201C21(3) or (3D)\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto insert in new section 255A(1)(b) of the Fisheries Act 1996 in proposed new clause 33E after the words \u201Cfiled or\u201D, the words \u201Ca reminder notice is\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 370 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to Part 8 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to, and Part 8 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002234b52db3c3ba422894172b5dee4ca785\u0022\u003EPart 9  Tax Administration Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2f2fdbd789e4e2a810db8ea23e1a8f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2f2fdbd789e4e2a810db8ea23e1a8f1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay Of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Part 9, in a bill that is full of wasted opportunities, is really the greatest wasted opportunity. This provision allows for the Inland Revenue Department to provide information to the Ministry of Justice for the collection of fines. I have moved a number of what I think are quite practical amendments. What the Government wants to do is limit the information disclosed so that it includes only the phone number of the fines defaulter, the name of the employer of the fines defaulter, and the address and telephone number of that employer. Why limit it to that information? The Inland Revenue Department could also provide the names and addresses of former employers and of people who have filed tax returns or paid PAYE on behalf of the defaulters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe reason why that information should be provided is quite simple. If we know who the former employers are, we can ask those workplaces whether they know where so-and-so, who owes $20,000 fines, is now. Many people do keep in touch with their former workmates. They may have provided their forwarding address to their former employers. Why would the Government limit itself to just the information about the existing employer? Why would it limit itself to information as to the person\u2019s telephone number? What if a person has supplied several telephone numbers on his or her inland revenue form? What if a person\u2019s attachments to the inland revenue form\u2014we know that people have to attach evidence of share income or various payments they have made for which they make deductions\u2014have the person\u2019s actual address on them? What if the certificate of donations to a church has a person\u2019s actual address or a different address? Why cannot the Inland Revenue Department make that available to the collections units? Why cannot all that appropriate identifying information, which is not involved with a person\u2019s tax status, be involved and be made available to the Ministry of Justice? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI have put forward a number of amendments. The first is a catch-all amendment to clause 35(1). The amendment inserts paragraph (g), which states that the Inland Revenue Department would provide to the to the collections unit \u201Cany other information held which may assist in the location of the fines defaulter.\u201D If a fines defaulter has included on his or her tax return a donations form\u2014for example, from a church\u2014that gives his or her address or phone number, why cannot that be made available? [Interruption] No, the church gives the person a certificate. The Minister may not have ever made a donation to a church, but the church would give him a certificate that he would provide as authentication, and it would have his address and details on it. Why cannot that be made available? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI have moved a series of amendments to clause 35(1) that would also allow the Inland Revenue Department to provide the information of former employers, and I shall explain the benefit of that to the Minister. The Inland Revenue Department would have information about former employers. Many people who are fines defaulters are quite itinerant and may have several employers during any year. Why would they limit themselves to only one when they file their tax return? Former employers may be able to provide information about any forwarding address or where those people may be. People in the workplace may, in fact, know where they live, so why would one limit oneself to that information? Why? I just do not know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ESimilarly, I have moved an amendment to clause 35(2)(b) to make it clear that the name, address, and telephone numbers of any former employers of the fines defaulter can be made available. Essentially, my major criticism of this bill\u2014apart from the very weak response in terms of airports\u2014is that we are just not taking every opportunity to get the information to get those people. We are just not taking every opportunity. The Inland Revenue Department, the Customs Service, and the Immigration Service will have more information than the Minister is asking for. If we were really serious would we not require every one of those departments that have any additional information to make it available? That is what my amendments are proposing, in particular, with regard to the Inland Revenue Department\u2014that it give details of former employers, and any other identifying information that may have been filed with a tax return, such as a donations form from a church or some other area, that a person was claiming for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf02e50fb5b74616b99aea116d49e22a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf02e50fb5b74616b99aea116d49e22a\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I want to carry on with that exact same theme, and say to the Minister that I am disappointed that in the year 2005 we keep talking about technologies such as \u201Cphone number\u201D, as we would have back in the 1950s when people had only a phone number. [Interruption] That may be where this Minister is, in his head. But I want to assure the Minister that the world has moved on. In fact the latest tendency, and there are already several million users, is voice-over Internet protocol. Voice-over Internet protocol means we do not have a phone number. We have an Internet protocol address for a Skype-type provider. All the phone calls are carried by the Internet protocols on the Internet. So it is quite easy to track the people. We can still phone them from their voice-over Internet protocol address. We can still speak to them, as we would. But by putting such specific wording into legislation, the Minister is saying that we are excluding them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EFor example, the one phone number that normally travels with an individual, even when that person\u2019s home phone number and work phone number do not, is his or her cellphone number. Most people keep the same cellphone number as they move from job to job, from address to address. So why would the Minister not at least have put in the legislation their phone number or their cellphone number? In fact, my advice to him\u2014if he is serious\u2014is that we have a \u201Creasonable person\u201D test and we stop someone out in the street and ask whether this sounds as if the Minister were interested in catching up with these defaulters, these people who owe fines and have not paid, and then we say: \u201CHere\u2019s the list of things that you can provide in the list.\u201D It says that the Inland Revenue Department can provide the phone number, the name of the employer, the address of the employer and the telephone number, and that is all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f43dd3885da2414bb5dbaafad56ac5a6\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: At the time they filed their return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebacaaa516de45aa807688a0983137a0\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is at the time they filed their return; that is exactly right. Why would we not just put in an all-catch clause that says that the Inland Revenue Department can furnish any information that may be valuable in locating the individual? What is wrong with that? If the Minister is going to say that that is a breach of privacy or that it is a bad principle, then why is he providing this? He is providing these handfuls of fields. How many are there? There are four fields, such as phone number. I know that a lot of people, especially young people, in my electorate do not have a phone number. They have a cellphone, and that is all they have. They do not have a landline, because it is too expensive to keep both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E I know a couple of quite smart leading-technology people right now who have dropped their landline and their phone line and home line altogether and gone to a voice-over Internet protocol line. One can still call them. People can get on the Internet any time they like and use a Skype service. To show members how widespread it is, I point out that the Ministry of Social Development has gone to voice-over Internet protocol across its entire network. So if we say that we want the phone number of the people at the Ministry of Social Development, why do we not have their voice-over Internet protocol number included in this list? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWould the Minister be prepared to accept a few amendments along those lines\u2014say, an amendment that added \u201Ccellphone\u201D, \u201Cvoice-over Internet protocol address\u201D, or \u201Cemail address\u201D? They are other things that people carry with them. People can take their email address with them as they wander around the world. It is very easy to catch up with people if they have a standard email address. They do not like to give that up, because they have a list of friends all around the place who can get in touch with them. From that email address, through the Internet service provider, we can locate anybody we want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI will tell the Minister, the Parliament, and the people listening why those amendments have not been included. It is because the Minister is not serious. If he were serious about catching those defaulters\u2014it is really simple\u2014we would take out clause 35, which refers to information that can be provided by the Inland Revenue Department, we would take out all the nonsense about the time people filed their last return, we would take out all the nonsense about only these few fields, and we would include a catch-all clause that states\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e8aa53bbf374f56a50e0839e8361176\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I give up!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206aefb727ab54fbeb12a03005b4c8438\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Michael Cullen has given up. It is good that he has given in. So he will accept an amendment to delete all the words in that provision and just state: \u201CThe Inland Revenue Department can provide any information at all that may be useful in locating the individual.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2d14b8ab6fc41e0ab20b4fff8a811c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2d14b8ab6fc41e0ab20b4fff8a811c0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005061411eebefafebf46e69a3e155ada6ccf21000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.42 p.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"