"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223047443e904f40bf9e27d9c4b6a6f04e\u0022\u003EWednesday, 7 December 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c87712c3315f419db1de8c2d31f6be19\u0022\u003EWednesday, 7 December 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bb3e36606444d6c9d1b877dde81638a\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c0f7d9c459543c2923a3a699da13666\u0022\u003EReferral to Privileges Committee\u2014Hon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef27a89627a74ac58ffa908f41acf646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef27a89627a74ac58ffa908f41acf646\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek the leave of the House to move without debate the motion in my name: \u201CThat the House refer to the Privileges Committee a question of privilege relating to an alleged contempt under Standing Order 400(b) by Hon David Benson-Pope, who told the House on 12 May 2005 that \u2018I have not been guilty of, or involved in, any inappropriate behaviour in my 24 years as a secondary school teacher\u2019, despite what the police have described as \u2018evidential sufficiency \u2026 that, prima facie, an assault(s) did occur.\u2019\u00A0\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88bcf65092b4f95a7f1260b47f07d67\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002249cacac313c049c9aa6c3f0d5f21e7a3\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022432539402238489fb8377186c0822365\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d436757274c44fb966e16c9b046424e\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment, Minister\u2014Police Decision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224385be6fa5ba4d3ea27037aa9bef7385\u0022\u003E1. Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Why has she referred the actions of the Hon David Benson-Pope\u2019s press secretary to Ministerial Services yet taken no action against the Hon David Benson-Pope himself in relation to the selective leaking of police documents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002281982424f64545d6bad7e555c74953e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281982424f64545d6bad7e555c74953e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Because the staff member concerned initially denied to media that his office was the source of the information in the Herald on Sunday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fccbc9c4b1644c0a8dfb152129be61a\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Prime Minister taken no action against Mr Benson-Pope, who having delayed the scheduled release of the police file by several days, authorised its selective leaking to accommodate his own political interests, and does she accept his assurance that he was under no restraints about what he could do with the file, despite his having previously said that its release date was a matter for the police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9bf5bc87cc492394eac3dc337efa29\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is a matter of judgment by Ministers as to what they put in the public arena. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297129c965001499d940f0714b3725d86\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister asked Mr Benson-Pope for a full explanation as to why he authorised the deliberate leaking of parts of the police file over the weekend, having previously delayed the scheduled release by the police for several days for his own political interests; if so, what was the explanation given to her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c3e8fd4b3f445919cd28c7cdcaea252\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that it is a matter of judgment by Ministers as to what they put in the public arena and what legal action they choose to take to protect their reputation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192406c905494a748b46a1e863f9d12b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think it is fair that someone should be able to remember something that happened 22 or 23 years ago, when a leader of a political party in this country could not remember talking to the Brethren church 4 days ago? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c19b31bc9603442082e31d4a3c5d40e8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As members have indicated, that question was not relevant to the original question. I rule the question out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2eb75476b54ac0addbcda46afac4c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. If I were to interpose in that question whether the Prime Minister had received any reports on the issue of fairness, would it then be in order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1006a66ca704446b4c5db242ff3bd0b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It does not relate to the principal question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d1b9218a536452793ff4fc23204cfd1\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Did Mr Benson-Pope give the Prime Minister a categorical assurance that he had absolutely nothing to do with his press secretary\u2019s denying any involvement in the leak of the police file, given that Mr Benson-Pope himself had clearly made a decision to authorise the leak, and has she accepted such an assurance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7841e0b3144896a1b23534659d87b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf5e139b73249df84d1cf37dcac19be\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point in keeping a Minister of the Crown whose actions have been deliberate and deceitful, and whom the media and the public no longer trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222018c76df2048a3b5733d28191b666c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept the assertions in the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002297c2727bf7084d4da850a4342239be57\u0022\u003EPharmaceuticals\u2014Disparity with Australia\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227de410ad9e84462db29c6fcc34baced8\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is he concerned at the growing disparity in Government expenditure on pharmaceuticals between New Zealand and Australia, which now spends more than twice the amount per capita on pharmaceuticals that New Zealand does; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3f76110bea7497da29c5d60fd4a6949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3f76110bea7497da29c5d60fd4a6949\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E No, I am not. Australia spends more money on pharmaceuticals than does New Zealand, but New Zealand and Australian drug volumes are broadly equivalent\u2014the reason being that New Zealand\u2019s drug purchasing is more cost-effective. Last year, for example, drug volumes in New Zealand rose by about 11 percent, whereas costs rose by only about half that amount, thus allowing precious health dollars to be spent elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e0c8e07f1234610b4797c1bcd3edd7d\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that New Zealand\u2019s proposed increase in pharmaceutical investment of $11.85 per person over the next few years is adequate, when compared with Australia\u2019s proposed increase of $50 per person and when taking into account that an ageing population will inevitably require more medications; and is he committed to closing that gap in funding, or will it continue to widen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022799c3bb6abfc4455948e0ca136ec0f9b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I suspect that the member is a little out of date. Yesterday, the Australian federal health Minister said that the Government wants to save up to $850 million a year in Australia\u2014a figure that is much higher than New Zealand\u2019s entire drug budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227087e1221466470d86015dcc2eb4663e\u0022\u003EAnn Hartley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government have any aspects of drug expenditure under review; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022318263c059ff40c991db12f4d8d8241b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we do. As a result of our confidence and supply agreement with the United Future party, a long-term medicine strategy project is now being undertaken by the Associate Minister of Health, Peter Dunne. I am delighted that New Zealand First, apparently, is showing interest in that area of endeavour, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d872b5c099b1439f8abef336be56b6e6\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister allow the patients to come forward to tell their stories about how their lives have been damaged by the Government\u2019s medicines policy, or will he continue to shut those people out of the ministry\u2019s in-house deliberations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2fe4402eb8d475087ce1ceb76e7ab8a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I shut nobody out of anything, so long as my diary fits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cac2c5338f45453d9c3f07c755b5a2a7\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he share the concerns of the previous Minister of Health that the direct marketing of pharmaceuticals to consumers\u2014which, of course, happens only in New Zealand and the United States\u2014is driving up the demand for pharmaceuticals that are still under patent and exposing a greater number of people to the risk of adverse effects from pharmaceuticals; and will he therefore take steps to curtail the direct-to-consumer marketing of pharmaceuticals, as the previous Minister promised publicly she would do, back in 2003?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201a39bbfe9c54ed18b50567e615858eb\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member may be aware that the Government\u2019s approach to direct-to-consumer advertising is to resolve those matters in a trans-Tasman forum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee1c8a5064b44ac0b31aedbb8d35d02a\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister concur with the view that one of the reasons that lies behind the proposed national medicine strategy is to ensure not only the ongoing quality usage of pharmaceuticals but also to ensure that the issues addressed by the member asking the primary question regarding price and other forms of availability are factored into national policy, so it does not just come down to a strict rationing decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc960c09ffaa460e9d16af96c36ecd6e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Precisely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f8e46e451304571bf8cca9c4441b5b9\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that in the 18 months to May 2005, the Australian Government listed 38 new drug subsidies on its pharmaceutical schedule against nine in this country, and if so, what action does he intend to take to improve the availability of new drugs to New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ee1dc78b7994d5faaabd5001ce906d5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not be aware of a bunch of press statements that came out from Pharmac yesterday as a result of its annual report, but it is a matter of fact that there are more products on the New Zealand drug schedule than there are on the Australian schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cec5021ab9054fcfa9b1470bdf161848\u0022\u003ETe W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa\u2014Ministerial Briefings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1ca258560f144b193c9ca17032ff771\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: Can he confirm that an April 2002 briefing to the Associate Minister of Education and the Minister of Education contained this statement regarding Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa: \u201CMinistry officials have stressed the need for increased governance involvement, oversight and financial management and planning.\u201D; if so, which Ministers and officials were responsible for ensuring those concerns were acted on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3abb91ae27c40b5912a4c3118beb115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3abb91ae27c40b5912a4c3118beb115\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The quote referred to is one used to describe the advice from officials to the council of the w\u0101nanga that the officials are working with. Those officials were those from the Ministry of Education. The responsible Minister at the time was, of course, the Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022344321e13412477681b410ee65b3009a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen a report dated 18 June 2003, to Steve Maharey and Trevor Mallard, outlining officials\u2019 concerns about poor governance, conflicts of interest, and financial mismanagement, and their concern that there was a lack of progress on dealing with these issues; and why did the Government wait another 2 years before taking decisive action to sort out problems in the w\u0101nanga, when Ministers knew the facts in 2003?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226256c7fb8ac34b9ca8b0fe8ef6bd7855\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not recall seeing that particular report. Action had been taken in May 2002 in respect of the appointment of a Crown development adviser.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f08147350d54d1a856d3140f9a30b71\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: What action was taken to assist the w\u0101nanga council to improve its \u201Cgovernance involvement, oversight and financial management and planning\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cca3811427b422481c70c037e4208bb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, a Crown development adviser was appointed in May 2002. In addition, other advisers were brought in to assist with the development of rules. The problem is that often rules are adopted\u2014including rules around conflict of interest\u2014but those rules are subsequently breached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e7edbe7f7ce4d30b2a7e5e99de334fb\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his statement, made on National Radio, in respect of the work done by officials and Ministers: \u201CNone of that worked. We can agree on that. It didn\u2019t work.\u201D; if so, who is accountable for the multimillion-dollar failure of officials and Ministers to safeguard taxpayers\u2019 money spent on the w\u0101nanga over the last 5 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8273b6bb8094872874c362d7811f341\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I would have thought that the person primarily accountable was, of course, the chief executive, Mr Rongo W\u0113tere, who is now on leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d062ac0e75e48279683934df6334056\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Labour Government make Shane Jones the chair of Parliament\u2019s Finance and Expenditure Committee, when he was a member of the w\u0101nanga audit and finance committee, where one of his responsibilities was policy on credit card use, which the Auditor-General described in his report, released yesterday, as unacceptable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022214730f191c94840a36f2b39025c1868\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I note that the Minister has no responsibility for that appointment. That appointment was made by the committee. Would the member please submit another question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34b89158b404e309a9dcfcbdb83c505\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen reports that Labour MP Shane Jones, now chairman of Parliament\u2019s Finance and Expenditure Committee, was a member of the w\u0101nanga audit and finance committee during the period covered by the Auditor-General\u2019s report, and that one of his responsibilities was policy on credit card use, which the Auditor-General describes in a whole chapter of analysis as \u201Cunacceptable\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb717bd4f86b4a828b96102c617b5512\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I am advised that he also resigned in frustration at the lack of progress being made, whereas\u2014[Interruption]\u2014peace to that member, too\u2014as recently as June of this year, Mr English appeared to have learnt nothing about the failures at the w\u0101nanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f7354e32c04d79b21d369cbcd67a9a\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received any other reports on governance issues at the w\u0101nanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022474d266c8e484e86849f18591b16bd5d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I have received reports with comments: \u201CThe answer here for the w\u0101nanga is that the Government stops trying to take it over.\u201D, \u201CThe w\u0101nanga is not in a financial crisis and has not been.\u201D, and \u201CThey are good. They are courses that do have value. They do reach a lot of people.\u201D Those comments came from the Hon Bill English in June this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c74f72fbf2e44558c25a47322e2f564\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister keep saying in the media that the council of the w\u0101nanga has changed from the time when the Government threatened to sack it, when only one of the existing five members of the council is a new appointment, and the rest of them, including the chairman, are long-term members of the council who were there right through the period investigated by the Auditor-General, or are close associates of Rongo W\u0113tere; why does he keep misleading the public about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1480ccbf37b4e54b4f73ecbbde0ba10\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Far more than five members have ceased to be members of the council, and, as that member should know very well, one can be a member of a body and still be a minority within it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb08e9f5e4c14dc39bc2f371383ecac7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister whether the quotes he quoted in the last supplementary answer bar one were made on a M\u0101ori radio station, and whether that is the explanation for the inconsistent comments that he has heard from Bill English\u2014it is one of those things one says to brown people as opposed to when one speaks on National Radio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a33c756ef794f658797f04a7b6c29e2\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister is not responsible for any of those issues and cannot answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f354e1a529f84b639a14261f0ebb44a9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The second part of the question was not in order, but the first part was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0d5f6d468864b33908301acd5d36eb4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227824c7fb00ff4f30828b49ef968b4330\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. How can Dr Cullen be responsible for where quotes are made? That would be one question. The second question is what else was there in the part that you have picked out that made it comply, when there is clearly no ministerial responsibility for what a member of the Opposition has said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dc16bedadb646a1ad18a3c1815f9463\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister, in making the quotes, therefore made himself responsible for those quotes, and therefore a question directed at them was, in fact, in order\u2014but not the second part; the first part was in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d709587883641d89a0a292e9d3446c6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f773a1a8e2ae4211bec00234f65685b6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224619e0253345458699f75e029d6b2c25\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It is a clarification on your ruling. You have just ruled that, by using the quote, the Minister himself is responsible for the quote. How can that be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224330dd67ed0146ffa81105506800057e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He is responsible for it to the extent that the veracity of that quote can always be challenged by another member. So I would ask the Minister to address it to that extent. It is the veracity of those matters that he is responsible for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d694e9d351df49a9bb2ca5afc0b31251\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. A technique that is repeatedly used by Ministers to avoid the Standing Order and make quotes of the sort Dr Cullen made is to give a big, long quote then, right at the end, put the name of the Opposition member who is associated with it. If they put the name at the front end, the matter would clearly be out of order, and you would intervene to say it was outside the ministerial responsibilities. I would just ask you, as Speaker, to wake up to that technique, and to ensure that both the intent and the meaning of the Standing Orders are complied with, and that that technique is not used just as a mechanism for Government Ministers to be able to misquote Opposition members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cce50a6641c84ec2a67a6d378c67ea1d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his comments, but, as I have ruled, a Minister can be challenged or questioned on any quote he makes. That is what happened in this instance, and that part of the question should be addressed now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292729cb0ee7447c59c8df7a508a88b18\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. We down here on the cross benches have been unable hear everything, and in the points of orders we have actually lost track of what the question was. I ask whether we could have the question asked again, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6d6811536774713a903b852c3780ecc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member makes a very valuable point. The level of noise in the Chamber through chatting or commentary on questions or answers does make it very difficult for other members to hear. I tend to allow members to respond robustly, but when it impedes the hearing of other members I will intervene more often. For the purpose of the members who did not hear the question, I ask that the question be repeated\u2014but only that part of it that was in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022709570affac7498d9b977bfa38a74125\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Were the quotes the Minister supplied made on a M\u0101ori radio station, and does he have any explanation for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297c91e35519047fa8772f133482e6968\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not the last bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225537881c6e64481193b18ed2a0a33b24\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Were the quotes made on a M\u0101ori radio station; if so, which?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c43f71356c5c4315804f5382cf1ce682\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Can you explain to us where ministerial responsibility applies in this case. If members of the House are able to ask silly questions such as: \u201CWhere did you get the quote from?\u201D\u2014and no one is disputing the quote; the issue here, as Dr Smith pointed out, is the misuse of the quote, and that misuse is well outside the Standing Order\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e34efb9bad48439fd31bf1566115e8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would members please respect the member on his feet who is making a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a5a6938e19747eda4fac59afd9c9d68\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs hardly ever speaks normally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225536e71240504337a59de7737579c4a9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not necessary, either. Would the member please just make the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022958f15ecfb774bc3ae5bfc757a7d654a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that no one is disputing the quote; the issue is that the quote is being used in a way that is outside the Standing Orders. If you allow this question, it simply runs away from the intent of question time. Question time is to scrutinise Ministers, not comments made by members of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a0ab030ec0433da0a5dca81137cf54\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Apart from anything else, if members wish to have this point of order applied, then, of course, that would have ruled out Mr English\u2019s question to me about whether I had seen reports that Mr Shane Jones had been involved in doing something. I am afraid that Opposition members, if they get a ruling on this in the way they are seeking at the moment, will find asking some questions in the future very difficult indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289a3b42561af4ee6a790544d7c9a330d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will rule on the point of order. The Minister has used quotes; therefore, the Minister can be asked about those quotes. There is nothing unusual in members quoting someone else and being challenged when they do in fact make that quote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcf2a7f7275b4b03a734323f9f1bcf78\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I am advised that the comments occurred on the Willie Jackson programme. It does seem to me to be important that one has one press statement for all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da3b816541bb4517900be3e6329ae862\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain the conflict of interest inherent in the Crown\u2019s appoint of Mr Graeme McNally as the development adviser to the w\u0101nanga, when the w\u0101nanga is audited by the Auditor-General by statute, the Auditor-General has delegated Deloitte\u2019s to carry out the audit of the w\u0101nanga, and Mr Graeme McNally, on whom the Crown has relied for advice over several years, is a partner in Deloittes\u2014the firm that does the audit and should have uncovered all the financial mismanagement that the Auditor-General uncovered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c1a6be5814446fad08269687d196e4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the conflict was not known to the Minister at the time that Mr McNally\u2019s appointment was made. Mr McNally, of course, had been appointed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255c296a36548417db3ff5de76596663b\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: So no one found out what auditing firm he was from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022163f97eea0cf4662975a7e2b01d1b589\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Mr Angry act will not do in this respect. Mr McNally had been used frequently in terms of tertiary institution monitoring, and very successfully. When the conflict became clear, Mr McNally\u2019s appointed ceased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2c09b8e3da40c089f9f7736e26bf2f\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: How long did it take two Ministers of Education, one Minister of Finance, and 350 officials, all being paid tens of thousands of dollars, to work out that Mr Graeme McNally, a partner in Deloitte\u2019s and auditor of the w\u0101nanga, was the same Mr Graeme McNally who was paid $127,000 by the Government to give the Government advice on the w\u0101nanga, and is not that a direct and fatal conflict of interest? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c1365632fd4a7da7a9bf6c0de2ef10\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Rather too long, in my view, but significantly less than the time that member has taken to discover there is a financial problem at the w\u0101nanga\u2014because he still does not think there is one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4f8c074cccb406bb65b792146488f8e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I asked the Minister how long it took three Ministers and 350 officials to work out that Graeme McNally, a partner in Deloitte\u2019s, was the same Graeme McNally that the Government had appointed to give independent advice on the w\u0101nanga, and the Minister did not answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd44d7ffe9a43c2ac5273076be89e53\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister addressed the question by saying, as I heard it, \u201Ctoo long\u201D. Question No. 4, Moana Mackey. [Interruption] I am sorry but one more interjection during a point of order, or when a member is asking a question, and the member will be asked to leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002247a66cfc01de4a8094c68a66a8700544\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Examinations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225da4f31bb92f4254bcdf0a02a14b2f9f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent reports has he received on progress with the NCEA exam season?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022abeabf05d93a4c69aa67391dc3f884f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abeabf05d93a4c69aa67391dc3f884f2\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The exam season is going smoothly. The sitting of the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) exams is now complete, and scholarship will finish this Saturday. Marking is now under way and is progressing as anticipated. To ensure consistency and fairness, early in the marking process a sample of scripts is marked and checked. The marking schedule is altered if necessary. That is exactly the process that was put in place earlier this year, and it is working exactly as expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998c164904654cdd8406fedff0750e70\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What is being done to ensure a high level of transparency around NCEA and scholarship exams?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae1fd535943441388611b23e6c8c7e2\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: During the year the New Zealand Qualifications Authority held 272 workshops around the country involving 4,000 lead teachers. Prior to exams the authority sent information directly to parents and schools. Since exams began the authority has provided regular updates to the public, including a press briefing, five media statements, numerous media interviews, and an exam hotline, 0800 NCEA. Since marking began the marking schedules of just nine, so far out, of 335 standards have required attention. These have been identified early and dealt with. This means that the marking schedules for less than 2 percent of all of the questions for all of the standards in all of the subjects have required some attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276733a9f090546fd86f945444574b229\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that at a select committee hearing this morning the Ministry of Education disagreed with the public statements made by the New Zealand Qualifications Authority over how the marking is happening, and when the ministry was asked whether it agreed with Karen Sewell\u2019s statement that there was an expected distribution of results, the ministry official said: \u201CNo, it\u2019s not quite like that.\u201D, so whom do we believe? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258a22c561c3f4398ae43c5cd45982912\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: What we believe is that this is a standards-based system, and people are working towards a standard. The member has often raised the notion of scaling, so can I point out to him that scaling cannot take place until all the marks are in. All the exams have to be marked for scaling to take place. I know that the member has never marked exams, but he has to understand that that is when scaling can take place and not before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8e549a4a0ba443f87a30ea4c8779bc8\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I asked the Minister a direct question, which was whether he was aware of the disagreement between the Ministry of Education and the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. He did not actually refer to that at all, and I request that he answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221f37e34fe2c46df8a849f05549c23c5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member is correct. Would the Minister address that part of the question, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225ca01b0048148628794204d47272e5d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Until I can check that matter, given the member\u2019s track record, I will not reply to the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225970b79f35ae4701957bfcbb0dae683c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. How is that reply in any way in order and how will it help order in the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102dbe9eb4eb40779beaa0c5054a2cd5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, the Minister\u2019s reply that he should check was in order; the throwaway line about his reference to the member was not. So I ask that member to stand and withdraw that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d98717185e2a4ff0bbf5ed672afd75f1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw the last part of the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1f0872ab8a6464e8165ae789e0d9245\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received that students and parents can have confidence in the exam system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb4a6b1a0b346bc8dd0925e6eccccc0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA) recently passed a motion of confidence in the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA). Graham Young from the Secondary Principals Association, early this week, said that \u201Cproblems were being recognised early and rectified promptly\u201D. Karen Sewell, the acting Chief Executive of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, said: \u201CThe process we put in place this year is working as expected.\u201D In other words, those who set, sit, and administer the exams are confident the process is working. The only person who is seeking to undermine this confidence is Bill English, and he should take his own advice and let young people sit their exams and teachers do their marking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b55d042de0d84b7683332d6248f4bd9c\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment, Minister\u2014Police Decision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229baee8a4da914b809d92fd51b73eeda5\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does he stand by his statement in the House yesterday when he said: \u201CCan I stress that I believe I have acted in a perfectly upfront way in all matters, and have not been deceitful.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022e10af81eaec54357b97922e15382e4d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e10af81eaec54357b97922e15382e4d8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, as I said in the House yesterday, although I was not aware of any restraint placed on me with regard to the files in my possession, in hindsight I recognise that releasing details was not the wisest course of action. At the time, the material was given to a Sunday newspaper to provide a more accurate analysis of the number of students who supported me, and did not support the allegations against me, than the misinformation provided to the House last week by Rodney Hide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221464a0476f18403189ef89ea8442d32d\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: If, as the Minister says, he has acted in a perfectly upfront way in all matters and has not been deceitful, why is it that he changed his story yesterday, when he said he did not recall the alleged events, from his statement made in the House on 12 May when he said: \u201CI find such allegations ridiculous and I refute them.\u201D; or is that because he no longer stands by his statement made on 12 May?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e2113c9ecb54774b4185f1e36d64ad2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that my statement made in the House yesterday was to the effect that I am one of the 19 people who either do not recall the alleged events or do not believe they happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7524314ef3443c8a579c9775ee0e3ab\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister authorised his press secretary to leak selective parts of the police report to a Sunday newspaper, what did he tell his press secretary to say to the media in case they asked where the leak came from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc371b491514c7887e23d001b186341\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I gave no instructions, other than being completely honest with the media, to my press secretary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b6187836a64449bad9af2142b2816ba\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his press release on Sunday, which stated that the police report vindicates his position, and how is that not deceitful, given that the police report showed there were nine credible witnesses to the incident and that the police believed them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f32c18dc72e474ca2efa3a254897ac0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do stand by the statement. The prime reason is that 19 individuals, including myself, in that class either have no recollection of any such alleged incident or refute it absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d6a91e3140460ca755ed44d089ce30\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his statement to the House yesterday: \u201CCan I stress that the analysis that was released was in no way selective.\u201D; if so, would he please explain how neglecting to include any evidence that might point to his guilt is neither selective nor deceitful?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271a9bd3d373944809180c196667b43e3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and that document contained reference to statements not in support of me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ced7075b2d4692acfc51de4c98d70c\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his press release on Sunday: \u201CNow that the investigation has concluded, he does not feel constrained talking about the case.\u201D; if so, why will he not front up to the media and talk about the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295a8ad488f1a440e8a2a914ce20cf46b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I point out to the member that the police investigation recommended no further action, and, for me, that is where the matter rests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e97debc721c24a00b7c062b802939b01\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Minister mean when he told the House, on 12 May, that he refuted the allegation and he found the allegation ridiculous?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6de5973d3c849cf8b1e5e44458b6eac\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I listened carefully to the member\u2019s question. The Minister is not responsible for actions or what was said on 12 May, in the previous Parliament, when he was the Associate Minister of Education. I ask that the question be rephrased so that it is consistent with the Minister\u2019s ministerial responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424ce224d02943b6a77997e22af5bf60\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister told the House yesterday that he had no recollection of the incident, and he was one of the 19 people who could not recall it or did not believe it had happened, did he mean the same thing as saying that he refuted the allegation and found it ridiculous?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce9703c90f8346319f9485e0f2c68a03\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: The questioner has mixed up two statements in that question. What I said to the House yesterday was that I am one of the 19 people in the class who either do not recall the alleged events or do not believe they happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f64caa5e8b2462f89ff19886eb34723\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment, Minister\u2014Police Decision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0f2cde36bbc4338bb06a622166d652a\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Has his office received the transcript of the police interview he had on 21 September, where he said \u201Cthe sort of activity that I\u2019m being accused of, of forcing a tennis ball into someone\u2019s mouth would be as unacceptable then as it is now and I was not, I have never committed such an offence.\u201D, and does he stand by his statement in the House yesterday that \u201CI am one of the 19 people who either do not recall the alleged events, or do not believe they happened.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002251642ed1041a40e0b4c4c42d3a5d5788\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251642ed1041a40e0b4c4c42d3a5d5788\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022061872a0922f4d74a57e22d77c4307df\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What event has caused the Minister not to remember what he categorically denied to the police less than 3 months ago, and can he remember providing a signed statement to the police denying that he stuffed a tennis ball into the mouth of one of the students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268dacf4ea27f4bf7a408c794b790013e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: My statement to the police is a matter of public record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228fa95a3a9f24fcbb75d074a2eb6f7ee\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The fact that the Minister\u2019s statement is on the public record in no way addresses my question. He could stand up\u2014as he will probably now do\u2014and say that in answer to every question. He actually has to address the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c3730715a842f4aa354b83cde40046\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he addressed the question by stating that the statement in the police report was a matter of public record. That addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a194df7efc94bd3b58d72f86db329ae\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: No, it does not. With the greatest of respect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022607f3a4f3ab94f0ca25464ffe8c5d584\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, it does address the question. Would the member please be seated. I know that the answer may not satisfy the member, but it did address the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022361b758b460447ac9b75f83ba1b90d97\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister said yesterday to the House: \u201CI am one of the 19 people who either do not recall the alleged events or do not believe they happened.\u201D, in which camp does he fall\u2014is he one who cannot recall it or is he one who thinks it did not happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227238a60ff4bb40599f98fc2cc71cf81d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88cd0aaaf034c24b902f76a6f19a605\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why can the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d15e36111b460eaaa05e44927c3148\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have warned members that when a member is asking a question it is heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225299b84353b24cdda6a1f2837ff95b17\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why can the Minister not remember every detail of every school day 23 years ago and show a memory superior to that of the leader of the National Party, who could not remember a month-old conversation with senators, or a 4-day-old conversation with the Exclusive Brethren?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e6b2a188eeb4fea9c4f446f8d63162d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that question is not in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb2a2c4dcea465891ac5040501e051b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. With respect, I am asking the Minister why he cannot remember every detail of every school day 23 years ago, because that is the core of this issue\u2014whether there is any memory of the event about which the National Party complains. Now, according to the National Party, he should be able to remember those, and I am asking him whether there is any obvious reason why he cannot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9f46af480949d59e436fbc2ad0e491\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the question relates to the statement of yesterday, then it is in order, but the Minister is not responsible for anything that happened in the past. He is responsible for his ministerial responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a4c939974d54823bb12b309e6a35f0b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The key issue is that he says he cannot recall, and that does not relate just to yesterday; it relates to 23 years ago. I want to know why he cannot remember every detail of every school day on which he was professionally occupied 23 years ago, because the National Party thinks that that is a fair question to be asked of this Minister\u2014when its leader cannot remember conversations held 4 days ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022615405fd2aa24cd7b047e85314974f82\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but that question does not relate to the Minister\u0027s ministerial responsibilities in the way it is phrased, so I ask for the next supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca3d07b833134637b4f32695a94fd080\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister just explain to the House what he meant by saying that he was both a person who did not recall the alleged events and a person who did not believe they happened\u2014how can he be both?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286d2418b12d44c60b9f0916b7cba4b34\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I would have thought that that was self-evident. I do not have any recall of the alleged events, nor do I believe they happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce4df6ca6a54c8f9f56344bd5ba7347\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Now that the Minister has changed his mind and can no longer remember whether he jammed a tennis ball into the mouth of one of his students\u2014and according to Mr Peters that must have been a fairly regular sort of occurrence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f762e331e9345f1a78271da0dd5c4af\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. With respect, that cannot be in order, particularly in regard to myself. There is only one member in this House who could have a tennis ball put into his mouth\u2014and that is Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b0b5d62c6ec477a959c6613047e6797\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Both those references to tennis balls were out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272c7d4b35ccc48af8619e6d05c61a59d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Now that the Minister has changed his mind and can no longer remember, categorically, whether he jammed a tennis ball into the mouth of one of his students, has he contacted the police to change his statement in which he categorically denied sticking a tennis ball in a student\u2019s mouth; and, if he has not contacted the police to change his statement, why has he not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcf20906b8b64890a187ff0455faa9e6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have had no further direct contact with the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002286a6ffc80541407a946ece3537c616c9\u0022\u003EPlunketline\u2014Telephone Calls\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf066ae0b8c4c6fb74bb0445ad20ba1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How many calls were made to Plunketline (excluding calls transferred from Healthline) in the month of October 2005, and how many of these were answered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002241a900ab2c35431bb29fa97d0cb243e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241a900ab2c35431bb29fa97d0cb243e3\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The total number of calls answered in October was 5,155. The non-response rate, however, was over 80 percent. The non-response rate is why I announced last week that the Government will contract directly for a Plunketline service. The tender process is now under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283560fc0877a43f0ba479aa7dee7b6a2\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister failed to answer the question. I have been specific, because I have some information here that he could have confirmed. I asked about the total number of calls and the number of calls that would have been answered, excluding the Healthline transfers, and he has given me a figure that includes the Healthline transfers. I think he should address the question and provide the information that was sought. The question has been on notice for some hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d49aed384f147058fa401dd79d82135\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would ask the Minister to address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb23a86146854291b9b5e41d5690c9e8\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I put all this information into the public area last week. If the member wants to know the number of calls answered by Plunketline that came directly to Plunketline in the month of October, the answer is 3,425. The reason I gave the higher number is that a number of calls are made to Healthline and then directed to Plunketline, and it seemed to me that it would give the member a better idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d888aeb724549f68f54a549de192baf\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am sorry to labour this point, but we do need to have the information. There were two questions: how many calls were made to Plunketline, and how many calls were answered? We know that 3,425 were answered. Now the Minister should be able to tell us how many were actually made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2a13cea8a9c498492c0d3483dcd66d6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the Minister, through both his answers, has addressed the question, but the member may like to redirect a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b57ceba8ca7a49eb9fd67b85d5c800c1\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, Madam Speaker. The question was on notice and is quite specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267c6dc26f01c4cc3b4c69fce91027afb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister, however, has addressed the question. Ministers are not required to answer specifically with yes or no answers. They are required, however, to address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205912ef198a4df28b6425f1e1806359\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. When the Speaker is speaking to this House, it is a requirement that members of Parliament sit down\u2014even if the member is a Government poodle like Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe1aeb83ad64141b31cbd0dcc7a56c1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, you always spoil your points of order with irrelevant comments. Yes, you were right that members should remain seated, but I was not on my feet. Can we recommence with a supplementary question from the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014no, a point of order first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eea765704fc478db4a075fcc3ea3f75\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In the light of Mr Hide\u2019s point of order, I also remind you that you have already given a final warning for people who interject whilst a point of order is being made. Whilst the Hon Tony Ryall was making his point of order to you Mr Hide interjected, calling Mr Peters a \u201Cpoodle\u201D across the floor of the House. That was an interjection during a point of order, after a final warning, and I ask that you exercise your authority and chuck him out of the House as he deserves\u2014he has nothing to offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a8bc33b2ae540859cb4e6c4adbf864a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, he was actually on his feet making a point of order, but he made an irrelevant comment in the course of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d4a8eb0827e41ac9c259cae148b1aa5\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: He made the comment long before the point of order was taken by him, Madam Speaker. He was sitting in the seat, as he is now, talking while you were talking and hearing a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e8b22da338483891cdaee90721ee41\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Mark. I missed that, but I will be listening in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b9d9471bcca4b558dc0ed0c26d6f955\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have any reports on Plunketline\u2019s success over the years, particularly in the year 1999 when National\u2019s leader, Jenny Shipley, shut it down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022505e70176e6248849f4509632eba424f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly have. The issue around funding for Plunketline in the late 1990s, when the member who asked the primary question was in Cabinet but when the member who asked the first supplementary question had already left the Government, was a mean and foolish part of our recent history, characterised by, amongst other things, Plunketline shutting down for months through lack of funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ca396c1fe654d9e97bf51be565b41b3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave, before I seek the call to ask another supplementary question, to table the answer to question for written answer No. 8978, which shows that last month 3,425 calls to Plunketline were answered out of a total number of calls of 26,453. That is why he would not tell me the information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef2c86fa9d354e4eb0bbbab7af982231\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022563ac6fb4d064b8988d5130530441ef4\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: How did the previous National Government support Plunketline?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39cab27170b4306975ab7867aa8e94d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Very badly. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcb0e4fe38c34d75b936fa779c257c63\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That question is not in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206edaee70d2f43f093e8bd29f4e2650f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The House needs to know that that was a patsy supplementary question from a junior Labour Party back-bencher, written on a piece of paper\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef321751dd14367bc3e7e9323924f27\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. The member will be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225881f1242b434aa6bcdf07529f84f227\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: When only 3,425 calls were answered out of 26,453 calls made last month\u201487 percent of calls to Plunketline are going unanswered, and it has got worse since the Healthline and Plunketline merger\u2014why has it taken this Government so long to realise that Annette King\u2019s merger was a complete and utter failure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277be4d74c59948b59a221ce442bebf2e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The House may be interested to learn that McKessons, who run Healthline, and Plunket, who run Plunketline, wrote to the Ministry of Health in August 2003, stating: \u201CWe want to assure you that we share your desire to ensure a fully functioning, integrated national Healthline service.\u201D People thought it would work, and when Plunket came to the Government a few months ago and said it would take a direct contract in preference to that, we said it would be fine by us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebbd55fa2b1f4be988883d871601fe63\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government ignored endless correspondence from Plunket regarding dissatisfaction with Annette King\u2019s merger of Plunketline and Healthline, and why did the Government arrogantly ignore the concerns of Plunket and of the desperate parents who were trying to get help?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240762d5ba03e45eea9be8247eacaff3b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say again to the House that Plunket believed that an integrated service would work and said so in writing, and that is why it was embarked upon. It is clear, after a bit of learning by doing, that a direct contract between the Government and Plunket, which will be tendered for in due course, will work better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022330acbf0a89d40798e80af2b8cacd41e\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: How does this Government\u2019s support for Plunketline compare with recent history in respect of dissatisfaction with service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb4917ab46934f2aa93ebd48a0109113\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: What an excellent question! It is now known that Plunket was so frustrated with the previous National Government that two rallies were organised in the late 1990s. Plunketline was shut down, through lack of funding, in 1999. It was then opened again, but only for part of the day and only at $400,000 a year. That was the level of support that National was prepared to give Plunketline when the member who asked the primary question was a member of Cabinet. When there was a change of Government the funding was doubled to more than $1 million, and now Healthline and Plunketline, between them, are working with about $10 million. There is a much higher level of support now than there was when the member who asked the primary question was a member of the executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b5db0f429a49ccab22cf2dcc6f1b5d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How many calls\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226742cb7e6eeb49a89529420f9849aa08\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I understand that New Zealand First has four supplementary questions and that it has taken four. It is not entitled to any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022782e56a1aa374e7abf26b0f1ce3bb081\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2ef26935b742d7aae1153de9e6f640\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You will recall, Madam Speaker, that you ruled out the first two supplementary questions. That being the case, we have one to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efe5b6a68de94ea4bd1c0d2412caecef\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: They still count, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022039c4700a468458ca65745df221b7932\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can you count a question that has been ruled out? Usually one is given the right to rephrase the question, which is a privilege that you did not extend to me. I seek leave to ask one more question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a283d0c4fb694b12b5fe5701c909d5c2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was going to suggest to the member that he can always seek leave. Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5eb2048f44c4a87ad6facf3aca5e390\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: He aha ng\u0101 mahi kua wakaritea e te K\u0101wana i \u0113nei tau 2005 ki te 2006 kia \u014Drite ai te utu o ng\u0101 n\u0113hi, ar\u0101, w\u0113r\u0101 o Te R\u014Dp\u016B Tiaki Tamariki a Plunket, me Ng\u0101 N\u0113hi M\u0101ori \u0101-Rohe, ki ng\u0101 n\u0113hi e mahi ana m\u014D ng\u0101 P\u014Dari Hauora \u0101-Rohe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[What provisions has the Government considered for the years 2005-06, to ensure that nurses working outside district health boards, such as Plunket or M\u0101ori community health workers, receive salaries on a par with district health board nurses?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a087ab286da4d93bf9de46e48a80cca\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Some nurses are employed by the Government and some nurses are employed through non-governmental organisations. The Government is responsible for the setting of the salaries of the first group of nurses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c328080ba6324efca738a2d6426a19e3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How, when the Minister is reported as saying he was shocked to discover that only one in seven calls to Plunketline were being answered\u2014saying: \u201CYou couldn\u2019t rate it as a success.\u201D\u2014can he explain those comments, when Mrs King said on behalf of the Government, in light of facing the same rate of unanswered calls earlier this year, that she was pretty relaxed about the situation that six out of seven people calling Plunketline could not get anyone to answer the phone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef0b45120a14f3c9bbf0db4b999d815\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The hope has been, and had been for some time, that an improved use of software and triaging facilities would improve the non-response rate. That has proved, with the experience of time, not to be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226da98df0fdde4107a1cc0823015d438c\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If this Labour Government cannot even arrange a decent telephone service to deal with 26,000 phone calls\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290bac4f59a314449beb266dfdca8ce87\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would people please keep their chatter down. [Interruption] Those were not interjections; they were comments\u2014[Interruption] Then I am sorry, but half of this side of the House will have to go, too. The interjections have been the problem, but members do keep the level of chatter at unacceptable levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221497790d6fcc4e14ba2cf3c492958efb\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government cannot arrange a decent telephone service to deal with 26,000 phone calls from desperate parents who need some advice, how can the public have any confidence at all that this Minister could manage the hundreds of thousands of phone calls that would need to be answered during a possible bird flu pandemic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05afe007c244627b2d704f1c1288d1c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: What the member does not know, and neither do I, is how many people are not getting through. We do know how many phone calls are not being answered. Plunketline invites people to ring back. Plunket has, apparently, analysed how many phone numbers the unanswered calls come from, and it estimates that the unmet demand is much lower than the unanswered calls would indicate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002212b4820869bc4466815f2a45feb7e661\u0022\u003EKiwiSaver Scheme\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275dee5fdafe04b5ca5331e3bdc376a38\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he received on the KiwiSaver scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea52dd9618e045e8ba0685da62c4a8ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea52dd9618e045e8ba0685da62c4a8ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I received recently a report outlining the recommendations of the United Kingdom Pensions Commission that the British Government establish a national pension savings scheme similar to the KiwiSaver model. The similarities have led the British media to dub the model \u201CBritSaver\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262cba29fd2bf4c2c92dcdd564312b1de\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Do any aspects of the United Kingdom Pensions Commission report vary substantively from the approach taken by this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c224e3d9b84f4611bfae9d90f92c9608\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; there is one particularly important difference. The British commission proposes to increase the age of eligibility for the publicly funded pension from 65 to 67. That is not something this Government is considering, notwithstanding the equivocation on many occasions on this point from the current Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac0e79dabcf54c0984f5973bad82d572\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11 to Minister, 16 November \u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6db5afbd9154406a7caefbd787c1c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6db5afbd9154406a7caefbd787c1c4f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct a statement I previously made to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022426809662fd74ef6801596ec64039535\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022426809662fd74ef6801596ec64039535\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. What is it about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4d8db56a5fd4ea59dce44c604500f54\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: It is in response to a previous question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274abe53554b144068b807734e3672789\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a51f51f68fe94a05ace0359c1d6abdc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a51f51f68fe94a05ace0359c1d6abdc1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am just trying to help the Minister. It would help members enormously if the Minister would explain a little more, rather than just saying he is going to correct something he said in the House in answer to some question. I ask the member to give a fraction more detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204cfa1003a134c6ca876ef933eb9ddde\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; would the Minister clarify why leave is being sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8a511bcfdcb4365b7eac3d83aa94e9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8a511bcfdcb4365b7eac3d83aa94e9f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct a statement I previously made in the House in response to a question for oral answer on 16 November 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957c6dbf74404847ab8b053d4dab898f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1579b1fd25d4ac9a3b840ca5e2a2fac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1579b1fd25d4ac9a3b840ca5e2a2fac\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The rule, I understand, is that a Minister makes a correction at the first available opportunity. We have had a day and half of sitting since that particular day. We have also been sitting here today since 2 o\u2019clock\u2014we have had over an hour today\u2014so we would be inclined not to grant that leave. The Minister has, of course, the opportunity to make a ministerial statement to correct his position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d65d87096041d1896bb42a0b011a21\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member, and I think the course of action would be to deny the leave, but I will put the question. Leave has been sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00221ec9c7423b1c4c5096ee4e2a618c07d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ec9c7423b1c4c5096ee4e2a618c07d1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I would like some clarification because this is an important point for Ministers. If one has given an incorrect answer to the House, one seeks leave to correct it, because otherwise one is potentially exposed to a breach of privilege charge. I assume, of course, if leave is being denied, that no member is then in a position to bring a breach of privilege charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002298dfbc4b6d9f485c807066b7d1d6df4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298dfbc4b6d9f485c807066b7d1d6df4a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E The point is that the correction should come at the first available opportunity. We have had all day yesterday, and we have had today. The Minister cannot tell us that this is the first moment that he knew about it. If he knew about it at the start of the House sitting today, he should have brought it up then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b58e662320e04e0cb94db059b18ac649\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b58e662320e04e0cb94db059b18ac649\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure the member is right that, certainly, the matter could have been raised earlier today. But then, of course, I assume, if you accept that that is a hard and fast rule, that we will no longer have any points of order raised at any time other than immediately after the offence occurred\u2014which has been a frequent occurrence already in this Parliament, let alone in the previous Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5dc56b08e15491dba07af3414df8b05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5dc56b08e15491dba07af3414df8b05\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, that is not a matter for you to consider at all in this, because this is about a Minister who, after considering a question on notice, comes to the House 4 hours after he got the question, makes a mistake in the answer, then apparently does not find out about it until quite some number of days later\u201410 or 12 days later\u2014then comes to the House at 2 o\u2019clock, knowing that the mistake has been made, but waits until his question comes up on the sheet to correct it. The correction should have been made right at the start. The courteous thing would have been for his office\u2014[Interruption]\u2014to make some sort of analysis of his answer on the day, so that we would not be in the position of asking a question that might very well relate to that actual mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022142ff78d509f409ab3061f7aa247dc64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022142ff78d509f409ab3061f7aa247dc64\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very important point. The rule exists that a Minister is required to make a correction at the earliest possible time\u2014 [Interruption]\u2014because we actually want to have correct answers in this House. What appears to be the case here is that the Minister has bothered to make a correction only because he is getting a subsequent question, and that is entirely out of order\u2014and, indeed, I suspect, a potential breach of privilege\u2014because Ministers do not come down and correct their answers when they are caught; they come down and correct their answers as soon as they become aware of the need to do so. The easy course of action for the Minister is to do this\u2014[Interruption] Mr Peters has interrupted three times. Madam Speaker, it is very hard to give a point of order when Mr Peters is sitting on the cross benches chipping away three or four times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9730d75fd89464badd74f75615eb781\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I agree with you, and I would have to ask that member to leave the Chamber. There have been so many warnings. I know that this will deny some people an opportunity, because he does have a question to him on the Order Paper, but as members have raised the matter I have to ask the member to leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f36154b6fd4fe69c4afb77daebabff\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to return to answer my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff0585ec6e69417f8a1fd1d6baec0445\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a5dfa3c0024ebb89cd7a796cad56eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I seek leave to return to answer my question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f886050261f643bf9099482fb97c5e66\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have asked the member\u2014[Interruption] I am sorry, but Mr Brownlee will be joining him very shortly! As I said, there will be very few of us left at the rate we are going. I have warned this House on several occasions yesterday and today that constant chipping in is not acceptable. I let chatter go, as long as it is not too loud, but that chipping in via interjections is unacceptable. I am asking the member to leave. He has sought leave to come back for his question. Is there any objection to that? No. The member will please now go, and return for his question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257dcc89740744774927e242371ad741a\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The easy way forward for the Minister is, in seeking leave, to explain why today is the earliest possible opportunity for him to correct the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8285adf561149a9be17b54e06109c4c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Hide. That is the obvious point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2b89051a127425aac9942fe8b97a072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2b89051a127425aac9942fe8b97a072\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E It is because, quite simply, the error was not detected until the processing of an answer to a parliamentary question today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222640be300c4c4d4eac862071c9022e42\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The normal course of action is that as soon as one becomes aware of that, one should take the earliest opportunity to explain. That should, in fact, have been taken at the beginning of question time, as was indicated. It was not, but leave was sought. Leave has been denied. The member can now approach the Speaker in writing to explain what has happened\u2014that is what has happened in the past\u2014to determine whether there has, in fact, been any breach of privilege. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227aeb28fd564f4326b3b9818cb950138c\u0022\u003EImmigration\u2014Priority of Applications\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258864e12e72f49419791a8ea34c674e9\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Are immigration representations made by members of Parliament given priority over other immigration applications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002297e166c776674e30a25f267d20d50a34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297e166c776674e30a25f267d20d50a34\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Immigration representations are not applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022042dbd4b949a47e9a173d66840732ccf\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when answering a question in this House on 16 November in respect of some of the 438 immigration appeals made in the past 3 years by the honourable Taito Phillip Field, did the Minister tell the House that I had made \u201CIn the realm of 80 in the last 3 years.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfb9413f4aa247d0b20ad0539b7146c9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The member must have ESP, because that was precisely the point I was attempting to clarify for the House in my point of order. In fact, the member made only 21 representations during that 3-year period, and I take this opportunity to apologise to the member for overstating his hard work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff6333d8ae34e34a3041f0865d939a3\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: How many representations were made to the Minister of Immigration in the last financial year, and how many standard immigration applications were made in the same period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022640a4f3dd5914678971cf2e3cfee4c4b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: In 2004-05 around 4,000 ministerial representations were received, with approximately one-fifth originating from members of Parliament. In the same year over 400,000 immigration applications were made to the Department of Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e19b404c9ff4e27aee1c8784aaffe4f\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that his own department had established on 19 October\u2014not long before that Minister answered the question in this House\u2014that I had, in fact, made 21 immigration appeals in the last 3 years, and why did he choose to give this House an erroneous figure almost four times higher than the correct figure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2481307a34446db5ba59f65f907165\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Quite simply, because I made an error. I have previously apologised to the member for overstating his efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a0cc8c6ba834f459c0f63f77d4f5470\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that on 16 November he also told the House that I had \u201Cput a higher number of cases before the Minister than most members of this House have done.\u201D, and did he simply make up the figure of \u201C80 in the last 3 years\u201D in an attempt to support a false statement; if not, where did the figure of 80 come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ad84d92c254a13a08dec0a3ad2263e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: As I have already clarified, that figure was an error, and the member is now quite correct. He did not, in fact, make more representations than a majority of members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f773d9259e8d42cb942516a87b6f8f98\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does this set the standard we can expect from this Minister of Immigration\u2014that if he wants to score a political point, he is prepared to just pluck out of the air any figures that might happen to suit his political purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d9512de2bbf4055be50cea418752eee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd64e4171a50477caaa50c41c72539f1\u0022\u003EHealth Care\u2014Role of Nurses\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b55284729804005863880cf4cb6c234\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: In what ways is the Government supporting a greater role for nurses in health care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00220c5587c45cea42f3ad0a2318c94f3e96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c5587c45cea42f3ad0a2318c94f3e96\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E New regulations mean that from tomorrow qualified nurse practitioners will be able to prescribe a range of new medications. This move not only encourages the professional development of the nursing sector but is also a key part of the Government\u2019s work to provide timely, flexible, high-quality health-care for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022319599acd6ae4709a0adf5737062c13e\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: What would a nurse have to do to qualify to prescribe medication?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5d3958221f4936bf1796944858422b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a lot. Apart from the 3-year undergraduate degree that nurses must undertake, they then also should undertake a 2-year masters degree in the scope of practice for which prescribing rights are sought, followed by several years of clinical practice. Some non-doctor professionals, such as midwives, already prescribe. There is only one prescribing nurse in New Zealand at the moment, but about 100 nurses are now preparing to apply when the regulations change tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aff8263c1dce4e9a9c8da96d7f9df74e\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that by July of next year most full-time primary health-care nurses will earn around $160 less than district health board nurses for a 40-hour week, and what specific steps is he taking to bring about pay parity for those primary health-care nurses who are paid through the public health system, so that there is not a mass walk-out of primary health-care nurses next year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223949ae48dd194502b821b37a709754bf\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: We are not taking any specific steps, because we are not the employers. However, the member will be aware that this Government has a very high commitment to primary health-care, and that commitment has been matched by substantial funding increases in recent years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bad1fb382174e9cb0b7d8e8d96d19f4\u0022\u003EChina\u2014Trade Deficit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c7801008adc451c93da400d1014985c\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Why did he tell the New Zealand Press Association at the APEC meeting that he would raise our \u201C$2 billion\u201D trade deficit with China in his meeting with the Chinese Foreign Minister, and what proposals, if any, did he advance at the meeting to address the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd0cebc8580f403b8d26515ad1854b40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd0cebc8580f403b8d26515ad1854b40\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E In a pre-APEC interview with Ian Llewellyn from the New Zealand Press Association, which took place in Wellington several days prior to my leaving for APEC\u2014not at APEC, as the member falsely asserts\u2014Mr Llewellyn canvassed with me a wide range of hypothetical issues that might be raised in my meeting with my Chinese counterpart, including our trade deficit with China. On further investigation, of course, I realised that the Foreign Minister in China is very much like the Minister of Foreign Affairs in New Zealand: he does not handle trade matters. He was accompanied by one Bo Xilai, who is the Commerce Minister, who later that day had full bilaterals with Mr Goff and Mr Sutton. That is the reason why I did not raise the matter with him when I saw him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b0917f01f54d618d4001530133a725\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen the description of his performance at the APEC meetings carried by the New Zealand Herald as that of \u201Ca politician whose role is now so circumscribed by his \u2018colleagues\u2019 that he is little more than a post box through which his international counterparts must route their requests to where the real foreign policy decisions are made\u201D, and what reassurances can he give the House today that he is not just acting as a postbox for Miss Clark and Mr Goff when he meets with overseas Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3df9434163433ca8595b12fe00ba5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I have most certainly seen the New Zealand Herald editorial, which is in line, of course, with the 68 it wrote against me about the wine box\u2014and it was wrong. It has never apologised. It does not have a shred of integrity when it comes to that, but more important, I have seen this. It is a series of emails that shows that the National Party had the New Zealand Herald doing its work\u2014[Interruption] oh, yes\u2014from one Peter Keenan, who worked for Don Brash. This email states things like this: \u201COne place to argue the case would be the New Zealand Herald\u2019s \u2018Perspective\u2019 page.\u201D I will read on further\u2014no, members should listen to this; it is good stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f10bc14446a249a3954cc7e1b69f799e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It may have escaped your attention, but not ours, that Mr Peters goes not only around this country but around the world, claiming to be this country\u2019s Minister of Foreign Affairs. He has been asked a question about his activities as Minister of Foreign Affairs, and we are getting a history lesson on the greatest debacle of any politician in this country, the wine-box affair, and now on some spurious emails, which have absolutely nothing to do with his role as Minister of Foreign Affairs\u2014unless, of course, he wants to admit that he is just the postbox he is accused of being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a1851bcae06446fbc0daef63575cdd0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, perhaps, the member failed to listen to his colleague\u2019s supplementary question, which specifically referred to the New Zealand Herald article and comments about the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261d14e1db93b444abea770cc3c92da17\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will rule on the point of order. Although the member may have been discursive, he was addressing the question, because it did refer to that particular newspaper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b193c99ac29494aa792d659200a3dd3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Does that mean that if in a question to a Minister we were to mention a particular publication, the Minister could simply produce it and start reading it, because that is what he appears to be doing\u2014just reading a few pages out of the New Zealand Herald, taking up a bit of time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cde2b6335ac42308fe84f0f81dc74e9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am sorry, Mr Brownlee, but we had not actually heard the answer to the question. As I said, perhaps the Minister could address it more succinctly and relate the relevance of the emails to the question, which was about the New Zealand Herald.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bc8ec41b2ef4f358735d40d516f1c26\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I most certainly will. Hear this: \u201CWe could use a slot we have available, a free slot, in the New Zealand Herald for you. Text to be in by this Friday.\u201D That is from Peter Keenan to Don Brash, Gerry Brownlee, Murray McCully, Wayne Mapp, Pansy Wong, and Richard Long. It just shows what a scurrilous piece of ragtag journalism we have to live with.[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755ec402ca7445b68b670f52736e56c4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I agree with the member. That is drawing a long bow with the conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d9439a592245adbf8fbce2159486c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am being asked to comment on a New Zealand Herald editorial. I am giving some reasons why those comments are not worth the paper they are written on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7ac63db296415185d4594b053daada\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but it was your description at the end of that answer that was unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022786460f2e0dd46b1b485895d2dcd23c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that these very illuminating emails also discuss how they will get me on side with the National Party, post-election. Now, what does that tell us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6276ed3860b43888b621c554929b65e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not relevant to the question that was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdb63abfc0aa442c9bbb4b35243e56aa\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Perhaps it would help if the Minister were prepared to tell the House whether he considers himself to be a postbox, or, in his case, an inbox.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3dc3902d4ce46029db9f9c7b2eb8362\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. [Interruption] Please, we wish to hear what the member has to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263aa0bfc1915455d82382702e08e5389\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Just in case the public did not hear that, and, not being a plagiarist, nevertheless I will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f551de80b45348778bfeba86882e0684\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee asked a question for the Minister to respond to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223912da4fc4cd455e99067d48685ca1f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Just in case\u2014[Interruption] It was a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d0076f9b29e4532885ab0091ccdf06d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to sit down, and I apologise. I thought it was a supplementary question. It was a point of order in the form of a question. The point of order itself was not a point of order. It was invalid, and it would have been as a question. So there is no question to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fa1de5ad94f44499e36fe517a9e28fd\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have any further reports about why he might have been misinterpreted, or his role as Minister of Foreign Affairs misunderstood, by so many people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c614191b3a4e818da9daa3e4a6b27a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is an extraordinarily insightful question. Can I just say that a New Zealand Herald correspondent who went to that meeting at APEC gave a full commentary on a meeting she was not at. She said that all sorts of things happened, to the extent that I had to contact the embassy in question to confirm that the discussion reported in the New Zealand Herald did not happen. I challenged that New Zealand Herald writer to correct it, and she would not. That tells us what that newspaper\u2019s editorials and commentary are worth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262368a1ad2374a5b8223ecb21dde8c8c\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Is not New Zealand\u2019s trade deficit with China larger than it should be because Chinese exports are subsidised through wages being kept at a very low level, unions being banned, and through very little money being spent on workplace health and safety or environmental protection, as we saw in Harbin a week ago; and what is the Minister doing to end these subsidies, which are to our disadvantage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db6e25e3e42a49b29a7e96f817a8ce51\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Although our discussions were wide-ranging\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d14b5f0aabda4af591dd6cf0955cfcd8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a11743e1c914147aaa849787c5a2784\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder whether you could explain what the ministerial responsibility of the Minister of Foreign Affairs is in relation to ending Chinese subsidies in matters of this sort. At the very outside it is a matter for the Minister of Trade or the Minister for Trade Negotiations, not a matter for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250a37ba1c57e4a8ea56c6b05ea3fad89\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I assume that that was to be the point of your point of order, Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022623d2b942f68445a87b96ef963cccb40\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I was going to ask you to pay attention to the answer given by Mr Peters, because quite clearly he does want to answer as a Minister, in the House, well outside his designated portfolio areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd7c9d6d7c6d439b83c9dbc891ce3b6c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member and ask Mr Locke whether he wishes to rephrase the question so that it is within the specific area of ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022001fdd3140c04a409c3368ab017369ae\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just speak to the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fbc76fc56b0492383c888ca2efa717f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. The member may speak to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022105720e76c284f32aa7d662413f935aa\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I think that my question shows that trade questions do have a Minister of Foreign Affairs dimension to them, because my question did concern issues of human rights, union rights, environmental protections, and workplace health and safety, all of which should come within the framework of the Minister of Foreign Affairs as well as of the Minister for Trade Negotiations. Therefore, I think it is up to the Minister of Foreign Affairs to answer such questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c11eb4136b9d45018983369d2def77da\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will rule on the point of order first. The Minister is not speaking to the point of order, is he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e991418edb41439aac1bd02b503611\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa66f70613641b5b1dd1fe116e2fef9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question was about a trade deficit and Chinese trade practices, so there is a relevance to the question. But, of course, the Minister in his reply is responsible only for his ministerial responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246d0a02b512647478cc41e3258f6ec9c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am able to report that although our meeting was gracious, elegant, and went long overtime, and that the Foreign Minister for China, Minister Li, was terribly positive about our communications, we did not have time to cover every other area of the portfolio that is represented in Cabinet. Therefore, I have not written any report on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d05f78fc1a44a7a98208c9eafa7b84\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement made in the House 2 weeks ago on his behalf that \u201Cthe Minister of Foreign Affairs accepts that seeking a free-trade deal with China is one of our highest foreign policy goals\u201D; if so, how did the Minister of Foreign Affairs manage to have a formal meeting with the Chinese Foreign Minister without once raising what he accepts is our highest foreign policy goal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220144c8ecb21648b381f0837ac8c4c557\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The plain fact is that the Minister of Foreign Affairs for China, like the Minister of Foreign Affairs for New Zealand, does not cover trade and commerce matters. Hence he leaves it to his colleague Minister Bo Xilai, and he did that for the afternoon meeting with Mr Goff and Mr Sutton. There is nothing extraordinary about that. Over half of the Foreign Ministers in the 21 APEC economies do not cover trade. It is only the New Zealand Herald and the Opposition that find this extraordinary; the rest of the world finds it normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a54358354054d74b2f610ddd1f0aed6\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I asked a very specific question of the Minister starting in this way: \u201CDoes he stand by the statement made in the House 2 weeks ago on his behalf \u2026\u201D, and then I repeated a passage from Hansard. Those of us who have been here for a while will have heard many sermons from Mr Peters about the accountability of Ministers and about the requirement to provide fulsome and accurate answers. I was wondering whether you might like to suggest that an answer that complies with the Standing Orders and gets a little bit closer to the loftier sentiments for which Mr Peters has been such a fervent advocate in the past, might be called for in relation to such a specific question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261ca95e47bc346c4a846067ebe50e18e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fact that I am on record demanding accountability for Ministers. That is what I demanded on the wine-box inquiry and got expelled from the National Party\u2014does the member remember\u2014whilst they covered for their rich, fraudulent mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223fd8a2821d541f9a71448587b3827dc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not an answer. Would the Minister please be seated. I thought the Minister was talking to the point of order. I listened to the question, and I thought the Minister did, in fact, address the substance of the quote of the question. The Minister may not have answered with a yes or no answer, but he is not required to do that. The Minister did address the substance of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957b9dd74a3444ad881807b09ea07d0d\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the New Zealand Herald column by political editor Audrey Young regarding the APEC meetings, which states: \u201CUnder a private agreement between Peters and Labour, the only person who can supersede Peters is Clark. But Goff came close this week, in substance if not form, in what amounted to a very messy beginning.\u201D, and what can he tell the House about that private agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b98213fd41b451dad0e276c65843b2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell the House that I went to all the arranged bilateral meetings at the APEC conference in Korea. Not one journalist went to one of them. I ask the public of this country to answer this question: would they believe a witness in a jury box who was not at the scene, or someone who was?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213ea3f685e4047e5a901c7df232e176e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That answer is not acceptable. It can hardly be reasoned that it was addressing the question. It was certainly verbiage that came out of his mouth, but it did not address the question. I call the House\u2019s attention to a statement by Mr Winston Peters earlier this year\u20149 February, in fact\u2014when he said: \u201Cit is up to the Speaker to ensure that the Minister does his duty and answers the question. I cannot conceive of any Western democracy where the Minister could behave as incompetently as that and get by question time and still survive.\u201D I think asking Mr Peters to live by his own standard is not an unreasonable request. You should just ask him to remember what the question was and focus his answer on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2061c8a9a3e480b8dec21f41091c91a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, my point is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249fd7c7242c74a8a8ee8cfed822b5598\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227531dc16533a4117bf7679fce6ae6820\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am answering the question as the member asked me to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229911fb94b42f4673abf2602f4458372d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, would the member please sit down. I was distracted just for a second because I was trying to recall whether the question, in fact, was addressed to the Minister\u2019s ministerial responsibility or was, in fact, addressed to another arrangement. So it would certainly assist me if we could start again. The member could ask the question and then we could get the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b18b7765e2a44c6b37e60499344851a\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the New Zealand Herald column by political editor Audrey Young regarding the APEC meetings, which states: \u201CUnder a private agreement between Peters and Labour, the only person who can supersede Peters is Clark. But Goff came close this week, in substance if not form, in what amounted to a very messy beginning.\u201D, and what can the Minister tell the House about this private agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d971fc278644185ba3b2761b70b4480\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The comments made by Audrey Young in the New Zealand Herald are baseless, false, and without any merit whatsoever. In particular, she has never had a conversation with me about that, and has never attended one bilateral meeting that I have attended. Her comments, in terms of their veracity, are of the nature of her comments made back in July where she claimed that we were in secret talks with National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf044e2381844a3895eb9ed622236a3\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister advise the Asian leaders at the APEC meeting that on 19 May of this year during the Budget debate, the leader of New Zealand First referred to Asians as \u201Cying tongs\u201D; if so, what was their response? Perhaps some clarification of the volume of Hansard in which his statement is made might be necessary for the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee7a6fb7ee5e4fa0af098c944a937239\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d5e787ee6a546fca2e23d2cd876372c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I have no idea whatsoever as to why that member\u2014having got in contact with the brotherhood in Europe, I might add, to raise the question with Prime Minister Clark\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285be7904547d48af8177433742d2f252\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not relevant to the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252aa846d222c485080f8ee7eb56611dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I draw your attention to Standing Order 377(2) that a \u201Creply to any question must be concise and confined to the subject-matter \u2026\u201D and there must not be discreditable references to any member of the House. This member has, time after time, breached Standing Order 377.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217c43e04e5804846be1d26f742678def\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for referring to that. I note, however, that both questions and answers do not always comply with that, but perhaps in future we will have a stricter standard on both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c288dbd8a6d64d779f288fb8fa79046a\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister did not deal with, or in any way address, the question concerning his statements recorded in Hansard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c662d3853121470da19c4c1da3114bdc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He has not finished answering it. Could we just allow the Minister to have an opportunity to reply succinctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221decb553c8b74828983a04c49bbf5529\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: In a long career I have made many speeches in this House, and I am surely not required to remember every one of them. Mind you, they are works of art, and I can see why my colleagues have been studying them very closely. But I want to make this point very clear: if the National Party wants to throw the rubbish it is throwing around, it will get the kind of treatment it is getting right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d5a6a53ec594da8bcd843897ac562c3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not an answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afa8187cd7504ef2b6bb4e8716d99610\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is an answer. I am saying that I do not recall the content, line by line, of every speech I have ever made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224226151106bd415aa46e891d6f1b85b4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Fair enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b188d7ae470445e9fbb45f3f5cd7355\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. How on earth was that answer in any way consistent with the Standing Orders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1179558cc454451b878b8a2a48a106f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Brownlee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daae49dd0128444888d7679e8a17965e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: He gets a question asked by the Green Party, and his answer is some sort of attack on the National Party. The man is clearly struggling in his job. He set a high standard for himself; he is not meeting it. All he has to do is answer the question, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af2249c1b4e4116b3250750558b31b1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I did pull the Minister up for what was irrelevant to his answer. He then did address the question, at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee1c525bea546ca924a0160b134d37c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: He attacked us at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229daf9d6eb6b449d6893555d2af4a0679\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, he did not attack you at the end. I have ruled on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b08e61973caa4068b67bc44b88c9edf2\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister not accept that when he is superseded at public functions, as he was at the Japanese Embassy function last night by Mr Cunliffe, that will simply reinforce the impression in the eyes of overseas Ministers that he is merely a postbox to the real decision makers; and will he reconsider the practice of his being so superseded by Ministers like Mr Cunliffe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4546bb84dde47f4a9a2fb811201f5f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That comment is absolute drivel because the person who spoke there was from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and works for me\u2014one Mr McKinnon. That has been the practice that the Government has followed for a long time; otherwise, I would have to go to every embassy, nearly every night, to make a speech. I know they would welcome that, but I have not got the time!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222679d185813f406ba43a1ac022460df8\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: What did happen at APEC that caused his colleague Mr Goff to tell the media about Mr Downer questioning Mr Peters\u2019 status as Minister of Foreign Affairs, to correct his statements about Chinese students, to rebuke him for browbeating the Chinese Minister, and to refer to him as Cabinet\u2019s mother-in-law; before publicly appealing to the media to give him a fair go; and does the Minister expect to receive that sort of assistance from Mr Goff in future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8279e2321244eaba19a9c5bf5179d5c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I ask you to ask the member to authenticate most of what he has said, because most of it is totally untrue in the way he has put it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d272ccedac2e436ab353c9e3c53d51e1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. The Minister can respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b5d3d662844c44a81192338ef4d7dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I can understand why a party of perpetual bridesmaids would have problems understanding the concept of a mother-in-law. As for the other comments that Mr Goff so rightly complains about, they are a fiction concocted by the media, as I will point out in the general debate coming up shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239490328a94d4fa7bd3552f818d71e76\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table media reports to verify each of the assertions I made in respect of Mr Goff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc177761518449b4aa788a8a33ecac8b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table various media reports. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e172db86b4489587387243377ce9f2\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Through you, could I seek the opportunity for Mr McCully to seek the leave of the House to ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs another supplementary question, because so far this has been such a one-sided, lopsided affair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49c0f5ce75444868c5f9d4bc081ca60\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a valid point of order. The member cannot ask, on behalf of another member, for leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221faf72afcc9c49e280c5f4ac3fca6734\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You were probably not able to hear because of the noise, but I said \u201CThrough you\u201D could I offer the invitation for them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022763a16fd77aa43d9b581266d664a0311\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that is unacceptable. He has been here long enough to know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a01e032c1d64da180bddf2c0ced9685\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. To be fair and reasonable, and after all Parliament is the master of its own destiny, we were promised fireworks, and we are still waiting, and it is day 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3df3b89a7da42068769c87c48b8bee5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has made that point. Please be seated. That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221468b1c1bb554440b255d748af92c558\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My point of order is simply that there would have been fireworks but the cracker turned out to be a fizzer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9428b3c1c24ea3aca430085d580c45\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is equally not a point of order, and perhaps we can now desist from attempts at humour through points of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227050f5d3956249b8a4e3927513ecbbdf\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09929288f1f47cda7ae5a39be243a60\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This had better be a valid point of order; otherwise, the member will be leaving the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9002db59f024963acedaeec484c1b1f\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is that I believe that it is time for the Minister of Foreign Affairs to leave the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89bbe68b2c44c98b87256a27fee7404\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is quite correct. That is a valid point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002280825f602fcb476f953753bad09edd26\u0022\u003EPaid Parental Leave\u2014Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef6fc76cf8a247f79d7ff246a204803c\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What changes have recently been made to the paid parental leave scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c751a13e1a5441e0835657941134023b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c751a13e1a5441e0835657941134023b\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As one of a list of family-friendly moves by this Government, the successful paid parental leave scheme has been extended to 14 weeks from 1 December. This latest extension follows on from the December 2004 increase in entitlement from 12 to 13 weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db6fddcbb9b4441c94a70f0621818d98\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Are further changes being planned to the paid parental leave scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a32e9545b14d7c8c7b04253015c24a\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As a matter of fact, yes. Further extensions to the scheme are planned, with a bill referred to the select committee last evening to extend paid parental leave to self-employed people. The bill reflects this Government\u2019s strong commitment to support working families. Well over 2,000 self-employed people each year are expected to benefit from the move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d56171449b8a4a129c29ddf351119f22\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ad009b0358b42e89480b4fdd64d1a5f\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00224e5c5c3bac3b4b5ea38cb324ecca3f54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e5c5c3bac3b4b5ea38cb324ecca3f54\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. This is the first Wednesday debate of a new Parliament and the first Wednesday debate since the National Party in September historically lost its third election in a row. In doing so, the National Party has established itself in the record books as the least successful and the least effective Opposition in two generations, and have we not seen examples of that in its performance today? Sadly for the National Party members, it does not look like things are getting much better for them. A couple of weeks ago the New Zealand Herald, much mentioned in the House today, ran this headline: \u201CNational inflicts more self-abuse\u201D. Well, it does not come as a surprise to anyone in this House that the National Party is a party of self-abusers\u2014but they are still at it. Members need only look at what they have done so far this week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EYesterday the Electoral Commission laid complaints with the police against the National Party, and the charges are serious charges surrounding electoral abuses, which the National Party president has now been forced to own up to. National breached the law of the land by spending $112,000 more on broadcasting advertisements than it was legally entitled to. The question is whether that is a case of the National Party deliberately cheating to defraud the electorate by breaching the electoral law and the Broadcasting Act. Well, the party president again jumped to its defence. She said it was not deliberate\u2014that it was because they were incompetent. The National Party, which would have the country believe that it could competently manage the finances of this country, apparently cannot even manage to run competently its own financial affairs, even on a relatively straightforward matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe other instance of abuse this week was even more serious and on a personal level, and that was the statement made by its new, up-and-coming education spokesman Allan Peachey, who modestly describes himself as \u201Ca pop star\u201D and \u201Cthe best of the best\u201D. I ask Mr Peachey to take a call in this debate in the House today to explain what was in his mind when he wrote to the woman principal of one of the schools in his electorate, threatening: \u201CYes, I do have a knife in your back, so be careful!\u201D. The president of the Post Primary Teachers Association, Debbie Te Whaiti, I think accurately, described that attack as: \u201Cunprovoked, malicious, unethical and inexcusable.\u201D It was all of those things. Clearly, here is a true future leader of the National Party, whose judgment, rationality, and behaviour we can all have faith and confidence in! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESpeaking of leadership and knives in the back, I note that the National Party leadership clearly has cause for concern about its longevity and the stability of its party. I am not going to waste the time of the House with what Mr Brian Connell has said about that. But when somebody like Murray McCully attacks Simon Power, whom he describes as\u2014Mr Power should stay and wait for this\u2014the \u201Cpinstriped jailer from Manawat\u016B\u201D\u2014I do not know what that means and, obviously, Mr Power is not going to stop and tell us\u2014and when Gerry Brownlee launches an unprecedented attack on the Governor-General, and when there are leaks from the National caucus saying that Gerry Brownlee\u2019s buffoonery means he does not deserve to stay on as deputy leader of the party, one can see the problems the National Party has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EOn the back benches is an ambitious and frustrated group of National members, and those members are coming to the House for the first time and seeing the inadequacy and the poor performance of the National Party front bench and middle benches. Those new members see that those failed men on the front bench of the National Party, and the bench behind, are the cause of that once-great party\u2019s 9 years in the political wilderness. The Sunday Star-Times described the National shadow Cabinet as \u201Cthe return of the living dead,\u201D and then went on to say that Don Brash was being measured up for a body bag. Well, it cannot come soon enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce9f5f8c0afa4f0facf3de98ae4d2f34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce9f5f8c0afa4f0facf3de98ae4d2f34\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E We can see why Mr Goff was so keen to divert attention from the performance of his fellow Minister David Benson-Pope. When Helen Clark was the Leader of the Opposition, she made all sorts of statements about political standards and ministerial accountability. She said: \u201CWe are calling for higher standards of ministerial accountability and behaviour.\u201D [Interruption] Lianne Dalziel is someone who maybe should not be shouting out about this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a44c9312a94d20b7d9014b0fc00ec6\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s the last person!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d97c21b9b2604d4687a1ddfa9b770edd\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: She would be the last person to want to call out anything. In March 1997 Helen Clark said in a speech to the Lower Hutt chamber of commerce\u2014[Interruption] She did. She went on to say about Ms Dalziel, the member who keeps wanting to shout out: \u201CI advised Lianne that in my view a clear line had been crossed between a statement which was misleading and a statement which was untrue.\u201D Most of us, in the normal world, think \u201Cmisleading\u201D is pretty untrue, and that clearly is a statement and a standard that this Prime Minister is prepared to accept from her Ministers\u2014certainly, from David Benson-Pope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe have heard today from Mr Goff about editorials or comments written in newspapers many months ago. Well, let us have a look at some that were written today. What did the Press editorial state about Mr Benson-Pope and his behaviour? It stated: \u201CBut to excuse Benson-Pope\u2019s performance is to set the standards of behaviour for Cabinet Ministers at an abysmally low level.\u201D That is what the Christchurch Press said today about David Benson-Pope and Helen Clark\u2019s decision to back that man, when there are all these other MPs in Labour who could take his place. How about the parochial Otago Daily Times? This is a newspaper that always backs its local people, and it has been backing Mr Benson-Pope all the way. Then yesterday it heard him change his story. No longer was he willing to say that, no, it did not happen; suddenly, he could not remember. Today, of course, he said it did not happen and he could not remember, all in the same breath.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E This is what today\u2019s Otago Daily Times editorial said about Mr Benson-Pope: \u201CIt has succeeded in substantially enlarging the sense that Mr Benson-Pope\u2019s judgment is not reliable.\u201D\u2014that is what it said\u2014\u201CWhen measured by his own attempts this week to misrepresent the police report, his appreciation of public opinion verges on the contemptuous. Prime Minister Helen Clark does neither herself nor her unfortunate Cabinet Minister any good in turning a blind eye to the failings he has displayed.\u201D That is what the editorial of his local newspaper said about him. That is what the Dunedin people think about David Benson-Pope. He is unfit for Cabinet and he is bringing down the rest of the Labour Party, although after some of the performances we have seen today they do not have to come down very far. That is the man who said in his press release on Sunday that the police report vindicated his stance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at what \u201Cvindicated\u201D means. One dictionary states that \u201Cvindicate\u201D means \u201Cto clear someone of guilt or suspicion.\u201D Well, did it? No, it did not\u2014quite the opposite. Or it could mean \u201Cto provide justification for\u201D. Well, it did not\u2014quite the opposite. When Mr Benson-Pope said today in the House that he had told his press secretary to tell the truth when he was asked where the leaked document had come from, did any of us think that that must be true? I do not think too many of us felt it was. If he really had said that, then how come the document was leaked in the first place? Why did he not just put it out with a note, saying: \u201CHere it is! Everyone come and get it.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa84a499522b4ccfad250d1fc9a46d0e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It was an honest leak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282999883572c4ff3a34442bae0208e97\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think Mr Smith is too kind. What about the Herald on Sunday statement: \u201CLast night he refused requests for an interview \u2026\u201D? That is what the article stated about Mr Benson-Pope. Mr Benson-Pope had leaked that report\u2014or little excerpts from it\u2014to that same Herald on Sunday reporter. On the one hand Mr Benson-Pope is leaking and on the other hand he is saying he is not here to talk about it. That man is dishonest and he needs to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00221298cdd893994bc3bf78d6f8d17c1c46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221298cdd893994bc3bf78d6f8d17c1c46\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I have just three words for that member: Casino Control Authority. I have a question about the difference between the Prime Minister and the caretaker Leader of the Opposition. The Prime Minister is supported by her caucus, and the caretaker Leader of the Opposition is not\u2014and the numbers are being done as we speak. The Prime Minister is universally admired from one end of this country to the other. Admittedly, it is a begrudging admiration from people who come from the other side of the political spectrum than Labour\u2019s, but they admire her strength and ability. The caretaker Leader of the Opposition is regarded as an enormous disappointment, particularly by National Party supporters. He was funded to the nth degree to win the election, not to lose it like he did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EPhil Goff has already talked about the National Party\u2019s spend, which was illegal. I want to talk about the record spend on non-attributable advertising this election\u2014from the billboards that included what could be described as an incitement to racial division in this country, through to the Exclusive Brethren pamphlets. Who paid for the billboards? Will anyone from the National Party stand up and say who paid for the billboards? Who was the American who was touting for money for the National Party over that whole period of time? I understand that those billboards cost over half a million dollars for the time that they were up, and we know that the money was collected overseas. How much? Who from? The return of expenses will not show that, because it was not attributable spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThen we had the Exclusive Brethren pamphlets. Dr Brash knew that the Exclusive Brethren were going to publish and distribute the pamphlets, but when asked whether he knew who was behind those attack pamphlets, he said that no, he did not have a clue who was behind them. [Interruption] It is a bit rich for anyone on the Opposition side of the House to comment about me, when National\u2019s own leader lied to the public of New Zealand. I understand that over half a million dollars was paid for the pamphlets, which were distributed free into every letterbox in the country. Again, we will never know the cost, because it is not attributable. So over $1,000,000 was spent on an election campaign, and the people of New Zealand will never know where that money came from. The maximum that any party can spend on attributable spending is $1,000,000, so National was ahead before it even got started. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bottom line is, though, that several of the National back-benchers who are here today\u2014particularly some of the better-known ones\u2014were told that this election was a \u201Ccincher\u201D. They were told that they would be sitting on the Government side of the House after the election, and that is why they are sitting there like stunned mullets on the Opposition side of the House, day after day. They cannot believe they lost the election; they were promised they would win it. They cannot believe how hopeless the leadership of the party is, and how unable it is to perform in Parliament. Don Brash cannot perform in Parliament. His absences are legendary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOn a day when apparently the Opposition was all charged up and ready to take on the Government on so many issues, its members failed to fire. The Christchurch Press stated this morning: \u201COpposition squanders embarrassment of riches\u201D. Although I would dispute the underlying assumption, I say that the promised fireworks were a fizzer. When those members cannot win at question time, we get ridiculous points of order instead. It is absolutely pathetic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThere are several stages in the grieving process, and the stage of disbelief is where the National members are up to in that process at the moment. Anger is coming, and there is only one person they will direct the anger to: Don Brash. That is why he is the caretaker Leader of the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe Rt Hon Helen Clark has done what no National Party supporter ever thought would be possible. She has put together a third-term, Labour-led Government because she understands MMP, because she is a great Prime Minister, and because she believes in building a strong and an inclusive society\u2014she does not believe in driving wedges between people. The National Party has done exactly what it thought would never be possible: Don Brash has led his party to an historic third-term loss. The National Party has been punished for its divisive campaign, but it is clear that it has learnt nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb6df1cc8f854660a99f4a3df112b830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb6df1cc8f854660a99f4a3df112b830\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I will start by responding to that member\u2019s assertion about who paid for the National Party billboards by saying that it was not the Post Primary Teachers Association, it was not the engineers union, and it was not actually the Prime Minister\u2019s office using taxpayers\u2019 funds\u2014something that the Labour Party did to fund just about every part of its campaign. If we go back through history we find that a number of political leaders have led massive campaigns that not long after those campaigns got under way they regretted ever having started. One that springs to mind would be John Major\u2019s back-to-basics morality campaign. He thought it was a great idea, he fitted the charge, and within months I think he had five Ministers resign\u2014because they were caught in women\u2019s clothing or doing all sorts of things\u2014and eight back-benchers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EAnother campaign that springs to mind is the campaign Helen Clark waged before the 1999 election. That was to bring back a new standard in government. The quotes are unbelievable; I have them here. Here we go\u2014here is part of the campaign speech in Taranaki - King Country: \u201CWe will restore public accountability, openness, and honesty.\u201D, said Helen Clark. That is what she said. Here is another statement she made in May 1999 in a speech to the Labour Party congress: \u201CI want honesty in politics. I want politicians to say what they mean, and mean what they say.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EOh, it gets better. There are better quotations than those; there is so much material that I wish my speech were for an hour, not 5 minutes. She put in one speech the definition of the word \u201Cresponsible\u201D. Let us take Helen Clark\u2019s definition, not the dictionary\u2019s. She was speaking at St Andrews on The Terrace at a winter lecture series, and she said: \u201CResponsible\u2014I interpret as being morally accountable for one\u2019s actions.\u201D Now, I raise all that as background, and there are about 20 more quotes from the now Prime Minister about the new standards she would bring when Labour was in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhat has happened since then? Let me give members some names, and then they can work out what the new standard was\u2014Dover Samuels, Marian Hobbs, Phillida Bunkle, Ruth Dyson, John Tamihere, and the last of this great list of luminaries, David Benson-Pope. But there is a difference. In the case of every other one of those members whose names I read, they were dealt to\u2014sometimes when there were only \u201Caccusations swirling around\u201D. Of Dover Samuels, Helen Clark said that he would not be able to fulfil his duties as a Minister, because there were allegations, controversy, and public debate swirling around him. So she fired him. It turned out that the allegations were not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThen we had Marian Hobbs and Phillida Bunkle as the double. Both got the sack because they somehow were rorting their expense claims about where they lived. It was not proven; it was just an accusation. It went on. Lianne Dalziel was sacked for telling lies. John Tamihere got the sack for some accusations about what he might have done at the Waipareira Trust, and it did not turn out to be the case. But then we get to \u201CMr Tennis Ball\u201D, and what happens to him? Nothing\u2014absolutely nothing! I think the best I can give members is the result of a Stuff poll. Members should listen to the question: \u201CHas David Benson-Pope further tarnished his image by trying to prevent parts of a police report on bullying allegations against him from being released?\u201D. The result was that 84.3 percent of people who responded said yes\u2014yes, he had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESo it is not just the National Party that is attacking Mr Benson-Pope. It is not just a whole swag of editorials, which I have here, from right across the country. My colleague Judith Collins quoted from the Christchurch Press, but there are lots of other examples in papers, from the Taranaki Daily News right down to the Otago Daily Times, from the New Zealand Herald, and so on. But here is some good stuff out of the Christchurch Press editorial. Members should listen to this: \u201CDespite all this, Helen Clark and her colleagues have decided to brazen it out. A large part of their motivation will be a desire not to give the Opposition the satisfaction of a Cabinet-level scalp.\u201D Well, how much honesty, integrity, and decency is there in politics when the motivation is not to let the Opposition score a point when it is sitting there blatantly in front of it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut it gets better: \u201CPublic opinion on the original matter is, in any event, ambivalent.\u201D\u2014that is with regard to the tennis ball incident. I actually think that had David Benson-Pope stood up on the day and said: \u201CLook, it is possible back then that I might have done that. Teaching was different then, and who knows what happened?\u201D, it would have been all over. The paper then says: \u201CBut to excuse Benson-Pope\u2019s performance is to set the standards of behaviour for Cabinet Ministers at an abysmally low level.\u201D And that is what this House is now facing\u2014a set of standards that were supposed to be the highest, but are the lowest they have ever been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00222deb4fb3273245ceb3661b49e909247e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222deb4fb3273245ceb3661b49e909247e\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister for Building Issues):\u003C/span\u003E The only thing that member said that was relevant and that could be measured against his own performance was \u201Can abysmally low level\u201D. If he wants to quote from documents, I will quote one back to him. After all, it was Maurice Williamson, that bastion of loyalty, who showed that loyalty to his National Party leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will quote from an email by Peter Keenan, given to me by a very reliable source. It is an email to Don Brash, and says: \u201CWe are probably sitting on our base support level of 25 percent, in spite of a messy deputy leadership issue and now the Maurice Williamson issue. Actually, I will make a brief comment on that. Williamson did behave outrageously, deserved to be sidelined, and should only be allowed back in gradually. A delayed re-entry seems to be appropriate, starting at the back bench and working back from there.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0fa6cf696a427a9be3563072d3086a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164ef73eb3e147128d37fd623714c9f9\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Here\u2019s the best bit, the advice of Mr Keenan to Dr Brash: \u201CRemember what he\u201D\u2014that is, Maurice Williamson\u2014\u201Cdid to English others could do to you one day, but enough of that.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWhat we have seen in the National Party, of course, not 2 months out from an election, is a bunch of whingeing, whining individuals in this House who for 6 years have proposed no policy, or very little, and who still cannot come to terms with the fact that they lost the election. Their election tactic was very interesting. It went like this: if they have no policy, or if the people reject their policy, or if they cannot persuade them, then they will try to con them. And if that does not work, they will try to bribe them with policies, and if that does not work they will break the rules. They will be deceitful, and they will break the law. We saw, in the paper, what has been divulged\u2014$100,000 of overspending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut there is more than that. Let us look at the Exclusive Brethren issue. I say to Mr Williamson, who referred to the trade union movement, that I simply rebut his point with this: for every billboard, for every feature article, for every newspaper page that was taken out by the union movement and others, they, unlike the Exclusive Brethren, put their names to it. They declared their support. [Interruption] It is a bit like that member, Tau Henare, who declared his support for, I think, four political parties: Mana Motuhake, New Zealand First, Mauri Pacific, and now he says he is a National Party Tory. I say he always was a born-to-rule National Party Tory, and he has found his roots. He has sold out every supporter in the four political parties he represented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say that, unlike the Brethren, the trade union movement nailed its colours to the mast. We knew about it, the country knew about it, and the National Party knew about it, but, of course, no one knew about the slimy, secret deal that had been done with the National Party, and a group of people\u2014many of whom are constituents in my electorate. I say this in seriousness to those Exclusive Brethren who may be listening. I ask them to reflect on their religious beliefs, and on the religious belief of honesty. I ask them to reflect very carefully on their actions, after years of telling politicians, including myself, that they do not involve themselves in politics\u2014and that is an honourable position to have\u2014that they do not back political parties\u2014and that is an honourable position to have\u2014and that they hold dearly their religious beliefs. I respect them for that, but they cannot have it both ways. They cannot then leap into bed with the Devil and pretend they never did. And for them to show their face in the National Party and front up as holier-than-thou\u2014excuse the pun\u2014I think, is a bit rich. Front up! [Interruption] I ask Tau Henare and Gerry Brownlee to stand up in this House and do what their leader could not do\u2014tell us exactly what happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThey could not bribe the people in the end, because the people are too smart. They could not con the people in the end, because the people are too smart. So they broke the rules, they broke the law, but thank goodness, the one thing we can always count on from good fair-minded Kiwis is that they do not like to be conned. As the nameless pamphlets came through the boxes in the electorates and as the scales fell from the eyes of the Kiwi public when the scheme was revealed, they reacted to that. So I say to the Exclusive Brethren: \u201CReflect. I respect your views, but reflect.\u201D I say to the National Party members that they should get off their hind legs and front up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8ec22c0262345bdba30a0352901a54c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8ec22c0262345bdba30a0352901a54c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E If I were a media tycoon who owned newspapers or other media outlets in this country, I would be wanting to know what on earth my money was being spent on. Journalism is a paid profession. Those people actually receive remuneration for what they do, and that is quite staggering. The question is: are they paid to write fiction or fact? Well, I believe they are supposed to write about facts, but what we are seeing in this country of late is the worst kind of fiction. It is often vindictive, lying, erroneous, deceitful, baseless, and devoid of any fact. One wonders if those people are in fact closet conspiracy-fantasy writers trying to manufacture some sort of pet blockbuster, and if they would like to call their work of fiction The Clowns Who Tried to Bring Peters Down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELet me say that that is not a new story. Some journalists have been writing those chapters in that book for years. But I have a new story for them to tell, and it is called Telling the Truth. In my view, most of those journalists would not know the truth if it slapped them in the face, and I will give them a few examples today of how they have engaged in deception. I take, as an example, the New Zealand Herald article this morning alleging that I as the Minister of Foreign Affairs was left out of a dinner. It is totally false and the writer knew it, because the paper called my office. My counterpart was not here. That is right\u2014the Foreign Minister for Turkey did not come on that trip. Many other Ministers did, and their counterparts met at the dinner. I had three other appointments; I was not left out. I covered all the issues in the Cabinet meeting that I did attend, and they had a photograph to prove it, but the journalist still wrote it and never seems to think there is anything wrong in that practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe have a writer who said I travelled first class. I told him that that was a lie. He has never apologised for it. We had someone\u2014and this someone is sitting up in the press gallery right now, from the Dominion Post\u2014who tried to make out that I was somehow erroneously seeing the Minister of Defence in Britain. Now, for 165 years we have been seeing the Minister of Defence in Britain, and it happened to be that Phil Goff had it organised, all pre-planned, when he was the Minister of Defence to do exactly what I was doing, but that did not catch the journalist by any surprise, at all. He thought there was something erroneous in that, something worth making mention of\u2014when it is total trash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut, worst of all, we had a person who wrote for the New Zealand Herald named Fran O\u2019Sullivan, who reported a meeting between myself and Condoleezza Rice. She was told that the four witnesses, myself included, thought it was a load of inventive bovine scatology, but she still stands by her words and so do the darned editorial writers for the New Zealand Herald. They are a disgrace to journalism. Fran O\u2019Sullivan was told that none of the things she reported in fact took place. Do members know what she said to me? She said: \u201CI have my sources.\u201D What sort of arrogance is that! \u201CI have my sources.\u201D, she said. Let me just say that what journalists wrote about Phil Goff over in the meeting in Korea was absolutely and totally false. They knew it, they were told it, but nevertheless they kept on writing it. And they go on interviewing each other with one tissue of lies after the other. Let me tell the New Zealand Herald writers and other journalists: \u201CIf you think I\u2019m going to go away because of your erroneous lies, you are making one big mistake.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229063d8e15b3b44fc85c4d2595d84634a\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Sue them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0185489dad46d387a4ea67f84ec2e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I will sue them. Unlike some members here, I back up what I say. I have already got two defamation writs out. One is against Television New Zealand and one is against Radio New Zealand. Unlike those members over here\u2014all talk\u2014I back up what I say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI want to make it very clear that one European Green MP in all those Parliaments, having been contacted by the New Zealand brotherhood, asked Helen Clark,\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1bf50a34dd6425b8dea971f3b9a9e3b\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member has just referred to the brotherhood. He should know that four out of six of the Green MPs are women. I think that that is an erroneous reference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd9f4d848144377b746bad1f3fef3a3\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, he made no disparaging remark about another party in this House, so that was not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cfd2ecd2c7b49bc83459a062fa727e2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: In all those Parliaments throughout all of Europe, one MP asked the question\u2014having been jacked up from back home\u2014and what did the paper say? It said that Peters was in trouble in Europe. That is a disgrace\u2014a total disgrace. When I said it was a matter of treason, I meant that someone was offshore, lying about what was happening in our country and capable of harming our relations with other countries. It is what I saw when a journalist from this country approached the Foreign Minster for Thailand and tried to raise a whole lot of issues about Winston Peters\u2019 past and Asian immigration. The fact is, of course, that Thailand has the same policy as I have\u2014only it is a hundred times more strict. But that journalist was not there to find out about avian flu, pandemics, Third World debt, or matters of development and cooperation. No\u2014journalists went over there purely to make mischief. My invitation to them is this: stay home! I will deal with the foreign media, and I will get a fair chance then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbec1676510a4ec78308fd25b7b0a26d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbec1676510a4ec78308fd25b7b0a26d\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a point of misrepresentation. Mr Peters just said then that there was some jack-up in relation to the Green MP in Europe he referred to. There is no Green MP here who even knew that this discussion was taking place at the European Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219e37d3dcdf94604b89542ec70b507b9\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ebaafb5c724e68a8943e28f9a87516\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Peters should actually read the papers to find out the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f55f2a19304228ac27b8b5ff057149\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Locke, you were able to get that point away, but it was not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u00224df5490d62534ff587714b9b93af6bcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224df5490d62534ff587714b9b93af6bcf\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start by quoting the right honourable gentleman who has just resumed his seat, who is now our Minister of Foreign Affairs. He backs up what he says. He said, in Rotorua, that he would not take the baubles of power. Oh, yes, we all believe Mr Peters! [Interruption] He says: \u201CLook who\u2019s talking!\u201D. Well, at least we stuck around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EAt least we carried out every little bit of the contract we had with the then National Government. We did not get peed off because a change of leadership brought a woman into power. Mr Peters spat the dummy because he did not like working under women. He did not like working under a very, very strong Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley, and, just as we have seen in the House today, he spat the dummy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EMr Peters spent 5 minutes having a go at our free, democratic press. We may not agree with them, but we should defend their right to report on things, and they have done a wonderful job pointing out the scurrilous behaviour that that Minister has been up to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI turn now to David Benson-Pope and to Phil Goff\u2019s comments about the party of self-abuse. I would rather be a self-abuser than use my position as a teacher to abuse a young person by forcing a tennis ball into the mouth of a young person who could not defend himself. Shame on that Minister! But he also went on to talk about it. He is one of the 19 people who cannot remember, but he denies it ever happened. How the hell can he deny something ever happening when he cannot remember it ever happening? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIt has to be one the funniest things that one of the speakers today was Lianne Dalziel. I wonder how she feels about being sacked for lying. She lied and she got the sack. She took her punishment. But now another Minister has done basically the same thing and, purely and simply because of a quirk of the Standing Orders, the House, or the Speaker, cannot nail him, even though every member of this House knows damn well that he should be gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIn the words of Trevor Mallard, David Benson-Pope should go from this House. I remember that is what Mr Mallard said about somebody who paid for a pair of underpants. Well, goodness gracious me, the underpants are on the other backside now. David Benson-Pope should leave this House. He should go, because he is the abuser. Every time there is a Cabinet meeting or a caucus meeting, every one of those Labour members will be sitting with, and be an accomplice of, an abuser, and everybody knows it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut something that really rankles with me is that in the \u201CPeters-Clark\u201D Government, we have seen those New Zealand First members, whom I actually thought had a bit of integrity\u2014I always thought that the principles of Zealand First had a bit of integrity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e37e6d0e6f6d4c22acf896b5aa7b1570\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why did you walk out then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c0f76db7fc641898aa9c05971e6c4ff\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Because it became the party of self-interest, and now in 2005 it has turned out to be the party of baubles. There is even a new game coming out prior to Christmas called \u201CPocket Baubles\u201D. That is all they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d37c7bfa11f44137bbf69b678b38c2db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d37c7bfa11f44137bbf69b678b38c2db\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Tahi, rua, toru, wh\u0101\u2014four parties. It is far, far too many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d9d07293f8b4acd88c1dc039428c3bc\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. New Zealand First, Mauri Pacific, National\u2014three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1a402fd6e274d59a912169e875220a4\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219531c4c070c4fe9938634f7ee8fd79d\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I beg to differ with the member. I remember seeing a hitchhiker wandering the lonely roads of the Bay of Islands, a distant relation lost in the Tai Tokerau, looking for a ride to the meetings called by that esteemed kaum\u0101tua of both of ours, Matiu Rata. Tahi, rua, toru, wh\u0101\u2014it is far too many. That reflects the bizarre situation my whanaunga finds himself in, which is under the cloak of hypocrisy, which we saw Mr Brownlee demonstrate with total accuracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224de667b6e5934b5a9c891282519171d0\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5aba5a499ea462d829ed43227731107\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aae5e4ba17c44d1c92e58db68b058600\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I want to raise it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c13f9154225e4c59ac9178fa05c62257\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I heard it and I am entitled to make the ruling. The member shall not use that word in respect of any member or group in this House. He will please withdraw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef863a1217d448edb8560e8e9aeaabaa\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221692d68ae1a242d0ab58bac655834675\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think he should also apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8279365e1bf43d88d0be2c4465fb886\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I made a determination that I wanted a withdrawal and that is where it rests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022337bda76c1dd41048292ce3176c90fef\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Perhaps he could talk about his two jobs and how he is enjoying double-dipping on his salary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e1671ec5414a18b7ed415f384cf385\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022914c3b23e368428899fc04a8da1a7ae7\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Let us talk about the brave Opposition leaders who wander up to Maniapoto country, go inside for a hongi, but then walk outside and try to talk tough and say they will put the Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa in a h\u0101ng\u012B. They wandered up there, tried to be staunch, tried to push the mission of accountability, but were caught off guard, then wandered out on to the public estate and talked tough. Fortunately the voters, irrespective of their ethnic hue, saw through that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnother thing the voters have seen through is that those members ran a campaign hounding the M\u0101ori personality, stigmatising and demonising, but the first thing they offered the M\u0101ori Party was to say: \u201CWe will do the Watusi with you over the takutai moana, over the seabed and foreshore.\u201D What on earth would possess our friends from the M\u0101ori Party to think for a moment that they could\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022828ad8f015fc4ebba977c86655522d5c\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am just trying to help the House. The member seems to be too close to the microphone and the sound is quite distorted for a number of our colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fdc28843746467f83059d27f197b4f1\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising that technical issue, Mr Henare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f519091e8b4a41969b6bd6e8d5a9afba\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Those members, having decided that they wanted no bar of a takutai moana, could not wait for the opportunity to put together a deal that, firstly, demeaned and destroyed the expectations that our M\u0101ori voters had of the M\u0101ori Party, and caused a whole host of people to accurately identify that they would say anything at any time to capture an opportunity to form a Government, which will definitely elude them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhat did that show? It showed how far National\u2019s leadership had departed from Doug Kidd, Doug Graham, and Jim Bolger, who knew that the way forward was to, firstly treat people with respect, and, secondly, to observe and uphold the Treaty. But, no, under the new recipe all we saw was destructiveness and a convenient denunciation of the Treaty. Deep down they knew that their pedigree was to be balanced, but the pursuit and zeal for power caused them to abandon that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBill English has actually identified that by courting and, hopefully, embracing the brown vote, his party will have an opportunity to come on to this side of the House. Well, rest assured, National will need more than a \u201CTau\u201D and a couple of brown baits to pull that off. I remind my whanaunga Tau Henare that I observed with great interest the time that he parted company with our m\u0101t\u0101mua Winston Peters. I remember, because we go back quite some time, that he said he would never serve with Jenny Shipley, Mr Birch, or Mr Bolger, but, hello, he now lies in the bed that they once made. What does that tell us about not so much his character but the selective memory of the individual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, it has come to our attention that in the pursuit of wanting to have it both ways with the M\u0101ori vote, National members have decided to embark on a policy of pretending to be friendly to Rongo W\u0113tere, but being anti the w\u0101nanga. They cannot have it both ways. The reality is that the w\u0101nanga will survive, and the reality is that the w\u0101nanga is larger than one, two, three, four, five particular people. If they chose not to follow the policies and procedures, then that is no reason why the w\u0101nanga should be either destroyed or brought down. Those people are in regular contact. They regularly share information and avoid responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223a5a1f72798c4c7db17d59b3bd8c4231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a5a1f72798c4c7db17d59b3bd8c4231\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Today in the House, during question time, Mrs Judith Collins demonstrated the sheer deceit of the Minister for Social Development and Employment, David Benson-Pope. She exposed how he has systematically manoeuvred to change his story, which is involved in this case. She also laid before the House the series of events, and the Minister\u2019s involvement in the deceitful leaking of the police report associated with the David Benson-Pope case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI think that what Mrs Collins did is a service to the nation and a service to the people of this House. She laid out the case against David Benson-Pope and displayed to the nation the deceit that he bears, sitting on the opposite side of the House. The Minister of Health, Pete Hodgson, who is also from Dunedin, is also reported to be subject to a police investigation. It involves his alleged assault against a woman protestor during the election. [Interruption] Well, it was reported in the paper today. Now we have a situation where Mr Benson-Pope has come into this House over the last two days, and, under questioning from Mrs Collins, has changed his story. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ELet us just go through exactly what Mr Benson-Pope said. When initially asked about the tennis ball allegations, he replied: \u201CI find such allegations ridiculous, and I refute them.\u201D He further repeated: \u201CI find such allegations ridiculous, and I refute them.\u201D I was in the House that day, and I must say that the impression was emphatic. It was a denial. There was no if, there was no but, and there was no maybe. It was an emphatic denial of the case. As we know, the history has flowed and the case has been subject to a police investigation. We know that in that police investigation a senior and experienced police officer said that there were nine people who confirmed that the incident happened, or an incident of that sort, and that they were credible witnesses who could be relied upon in a court of law. They said there was a prima facie case that the Minister committed those offences of child abuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe police report actually means that they did not believe David Benson-Pope, because, if they did, they would not have said that the nine other witnesses were credible and could be relied upon. So that is the conclusion of the police case. Because they thought the case was old, and because they thought there would be an undue and harsh focus due to the Minister\u2019s position, they decided not to proceed. They did not decide not to proceed because they thought they would lose in a court of law; they did not decide not to proceed because there was no foundation; it was because they thought that the case was old, and that the effect on the Minister would be disproportionate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EBut under questioning from Judith Collins during question time yesterday, Mr Benson-Pope changed his story. This is what he said: \u201CI have said from the outset that I have no recollection of these events, and I do not believe what was alleged happened.\u201D Well, that is just not true. He did not say that from the outset. From the outset he was emphatic: \u201CI find such allegations ridiculous, and I refute them.\u201D It was not a case of: \u201CLook, it\u2019s 23 years ago, I can\u2019t remember. I cannot believe that I would do such a thing and I refute it.\u201D There was no sort of conditionality. It was absolutely clear: \u201CI find such allegations ridiculous, and I refute them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThen, under questioning from the National Opposition yesterday, the story changed to: \u201CI have said from the outset that I have no recollection of these events, and I do not believe what was alleged happened.\u201D Look at the words: \u201Csaid from the outset\u201D, \u201Cno recollection\u201D, \u201Cdo not believe\u201D, \u201Calleged\u201D, and \u201Chappened\u201D. I do not think those words would have been written by the Minister. They would have been written by a lawyer, because they are very clear, they are very detailed, and it is very, very clear that they conflict with the earlier comments. So Mrs Collins has outlined the fact that we have a Minister who cannot be relied upon to tell the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba0b601f49af4e2eb51bdd6cd02a12b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba0b601f49af4e2eb51bdd6cd02a12b9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E That was Tony Ryall, whose speech was driven by a deep-seated bitterness because of having to spend 9 years in Opposition as a result of three elections. He thinks that the way back for the National Party is through character assassinations. My message to Mr Ryall is that he should look at Rodney Hide, who has spent a number of years here making character assassinations, and at the state of the ACT party in this Parliament. ACT is at 1.5 percent in the polls, and falling. So my message to Mr Ryall is that he should stop being bitter and making character assassinations, and start concentrating on policies and things that New Zealanders want to hear about. That is my advice to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIf we want to use the tennis analogy, which is very popular at the moment, then in the games between Labour and National the score is three sets to love. National has now lost three elections in a row. One could say it was understandable that it lost the first of the three, because by that stage it was tired and worn out. Basically, it had given it away. [Interruption] Yes, it was understandable. I have talked to a number of people in the National Opposition who said that they were basically quite relieved to lose in 1999, because they could flag it away and not have to worry any more about Cabinet papers. As for the second time National lost, well, that is just getting plain old careless. To lose two elections in a row is not understandable; it is just careless. But to lose a third time, in 2005, is actually unforgivable for a lot of the members who are in the back benches now. Of course, Don Brash said: \u201CWell, I expect to go, because leaders who lose shouldn\u2019t be given a second chance.\u201D But he is back there, and that is why he is so equivocal about the leadership. Members opposite can smell the blood, because they know that he will not be around for too long. They know that the numbers are working. We know about the closed doors and the private meetings. Gerry Brownlee sits there quietly. He sees the opportunity coming. He will be one of those who are behind the closed doors. The thing about Don Brash is that he must go, and he will go; it is now just a matter of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EOne of the things that happened to the National Party this week was that it was taken off to the Electoral Commission by the police because of breaking election rules. The National Party said that it was just a simple mistake: \u201CWas it GST inclusive, or GST exclusive? It was just a little mistake.\u201D This was from the former Governor of the Reserve Bank. GST inclusive and GST exclusive are important issues when it comes down to the national economy\u2014and Don Brash wants to be the Prime Minister! \u201CWhat is a bit of GST between friends?\u201D, asks Don Brash. \u201CWho cares about it; it doesn\u2019t really matter\u2014GST inclusive, GST exclusive.\u201D This cannot be the attitude of a person who wants to be the Prime Minister. Cabinets spend a lot of time on Budgets, and when they do they look carefully at GST inclusive and GST exclusive. It is not simply a mistake; it is just absolute incompetence, and, of course, the Leader of the Opposition is known for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThen there was the Exclusive Brethren\u2019s association with that. How does the Exclusive Brethren Church, whose members do not take part in elections, read newspapers, watch TV, or use the Internet, know about the detail of Labour\u2019s health policy? That is what I want to know. Either the leaders of that church are not being straight with the general rank and file or their church is telling porkies. It cannot be both; it has to be one or the other. I say that that church has been found out. It has betrayed ordinary God-fearing New Zealanders by trying to deceive them, and its members need to sit down and think about what they have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ENational does not deserve to be in Government. It actually does not really deserve to be in Opposition. That is how hopeless its members are. They do not deserve to be in Opposition. As a result of what we have seen this week, the Press headline is: \u201COpposition squanders embarrassment of riches\u201D, and that newspaper is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4b27a68d37145059f0f5bc8e6008444\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4b27a68d37145059f0f5bc8e6008444\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I begin this afternoon by offering my condolences to the New Zealand First Party. I have never seen a more pathetic effort in this House in all the 9 years that I have been here. The Hon Winston Peters stood up and, in a most Uriah Heep - like way, began to justify his position as Minister of Foreign Affairs. That tells me that he knows that he has set himself up as a joke and that his days as Minister in that portfolio are not going to be marked with great success. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMr Swain, the speaker who preceded me, made a suggestion that attacks this afternoon concerning the issues surrounding Mr Benson-Pope were about character assassination. They are not, because this issue has now moved to a point where the question has to be whether anything this Government says or does can be believed. My colleagues have given a very lengthy list of Ministers who have gone west for so-called indiscretions and, in some cases, for misleading the public. Here is a perfect situation of a Minister trying to manipulate the media\u2014trying to create an impression that was untrue, and then denying it\u2014of the Prime Minister then turning round and saying that it was a staff member who did it, and of the poor old staff member being dragged before Ministerial Services to take the rap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe should not be surprised at the particular style of this exercise. Members will remember that shortly after the Prime Minister\u2019s motorcade was sprung for speeding at 160-odd kilometres an hour across the Canterbury plains\u2014a speeding motorcade that the Prime Minister, although she was sitting in the back seat of one of the cars, said she did not notice\u2014one of her press secretaries went to a media outlet, and tried to put across the story that the drivers had to speed because there were death threats against the Prime Minister. When the media outlet decided to check that out, it discovered that the particular nutter who had made that threat had been arrested many hours before the convoy left Geraldine, and that there was no need to speed for that reason. But that account is what Helen Clark\u2019s office tried to put across. That is what David Lewis, the press secretary, tried to get out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWas David Lewis punished for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223575ed064c57463390369b13f99180f9\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Was he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2650d19628e4f0e8bede0794e839598\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No, he was promoted. For doing the Prime Minister\u2019s bidding, he was promoted to become her illustrious speech-writer and the person who constructed the words that she used throughout the last campaign. What is more, it is rumoured that that fellow, who did the Prime Minister\u2019s bidding in lying to the media, will become the next senior press secretary on the ninth floor, as the replacement for the outgoing Mike Munro. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo there is an interesting situation here. One press secretary, who goes off and lies on behalf of the Prime Minister to the media, is promoted, but another press secretary, told by Mr Benson-Pope to put this spin out all over the place, ends up getting hung out to dry. I think that Mr Coleman needs to take some advice from someone like David Lewis, in order to work out how to get on the better side of the Prime Minister and not have to take the rap for Mr Benson-Pope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMuch has been said this afternoon by Labour members about how good they are, how clever they are, and how fantastic they are. The reality, of course, is that they are members of a party that is in extreme disarray. The party is suffering extreme disunity and severe embarrassment, as was witnessed during question No. 11 today when the Rt Hon Winston Peters, Government poodle, Government lapdog, would-be Minister of Foreign Affairs, and recipient of all sorts of emails, embarrassed it to bits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe65e001384f4b39bb0daa3cb05101d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe65e001384f4b39bb0daa3cb05101d2\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Last week Meadow Fresh ended the supply of milk in glass and closed the last plant in the country capable of producing that. It was a decision opposed by a number of councils, businesses, community organisations, and individuals, yet within the present economic framework it was almost inevitable. Closing the bottling plant in Christchurch will cut costs and boost profits by externalising waste disposal costs on to local communities. And why, in one sense, should Meadow Fresh not do that? Every other milk producer did it years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe decision contravenes the New Zealand Packaging Accord 2004 and its objective of reducing packaging waste, but that is a voluntary accord and is not intended to disrupt business. That is precisely the problem. This Government, like Governments in the past, is protecting corporate subsidies by failing to introduce legislation that makes businesses pay their way. That distorts the market and puts businesses that have an ecological ethic at an unfair disadvantage. Don Brash is trying to protect the same corporate subsidy with his campaign to axe the future by smothering the carbon tax. Let taxpayers pay the clean-up tab for big business, he says. Let our young people and our environment carry the cost of the fossil fuels that we burn today. Forcing local bodies to pick up the tab for the collection, compaction, and disposal of single-use milk containers is nothing more than a corporate rort. Milk producers, like so many others, are forcing local communities to subsidise their shareholders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe cost to the community is not just economic but has significant environmental and social impacts, as well. The loss of the glass milk bottle almost certainly means the loss of the home delivery service. When glass milk bottles were taken out of circulation in the North Island, home delivery ceased in most places. Once loyalty to glass bottles was gone, consumers bought milk at the supermarket. Those with limited mobility, such as the elderly and those with disabilities, who depended on the service, simply did not represent a sufficient market to maintain the service. My conversations with vendors have indicated that despite the assurance by Meadow Fresh that it would support vendors, the company\u2019s treatment of them has, in fact, been a source of considerable ill feeling. The decision by Meadow Fresh to require bulk purchasing for other non-milk products has further undermined the viability of those independent operators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EMeadow Fresh has claimed an environmental benefit from single-use Tetra Paks. It says that glass is heavy to transport around the South Island and that washing involves lots of caustic soda, water, and energy. But there is, of course, a simple reply. The caustic solution is reused many times. In addition, it can be chemically neutralised in a simple process and be returned back into the environment. In comparison, Tetra Paks are imported from Scandinavia. Trees For Canterbury reuses about 30 percent of the Tetra Paks coming through Christchurch, but it cannot handle all the cartons now, never mind another 25,000 as a result of axing glass bottles. Tetra Paks cannot be recycled in New Zealand at all; they must be re-exported to Australia and then to Asia. The fusing of plastic tops on to card bases makes them even more difficult to recycle, and not cost-effective for most operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELast week I met with Ross Townshend, the operations manager of Rank Group, to discuss these matters. Meadow Fresh has to make business decisions within the prevailing economic framework, and, in his view, the business case is compelling. That is why I say to this House that we need to change the framework and legislate for extended producer responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002256e86c5656be41abb07877f46bb39992\u0022\u003EManfeild Park Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e31bc4017f741ad87b1489bcba37b4a\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00227d534bb5c98f486d9ce520b2b8e664ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d534bb5c98f486d9ce520b2b8e664ed\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Manfeild Park Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee, and that the committee report finally to the House on or before 27 March 2006. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Manfeild Park Bill, a local bill, has as its aim to facilitate the transfer of Manfeild Park in Feilding to the Manfeild Park Trust and to make other provisions in respect of that trust, which I will come to shortly. Prior to giving a bit of background to the bill, I take the opportunity to thank Steve Maharey, who has, in effect, co-sponsored this bill with me. Had the Standing Orders allowed for two members to be responsible for a bill, I am sure this would have been one of the instances where that would be the case. Feilding is the largest town in my electorate. As a result, I am moving the reading of the bill, and I have been nominated to do that in discussions with Mr Maharey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EHistorically, Manfeild Park in Feilding has been owned by three separate entities: the Manawat\u016B District Council, the Feilding Industrial, Agricultural and Pastoral Association, and the Manawat\u016B Car Club Inc. But in order to allow for future development and the expansion of Manfeild Park in what the trust has described as an integrated manner, ownership of Manfeild Park is to be retained by the trust itself. The bill provides for the transfer of ownership by the association, in particular, for ongoing use of the land rights for the association, and for other mechanical matters to do with the appointment and removal of trustees of the trust. The trust deed that associates itself with the industrial, agricultural, and pastoral association is the document that proves to have sufficient inflexibility to require a local bill to come to the House in order to facilitate those changes of ownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe bill requires that the owners of the land comprising Manfeild Park transfer the land to the Manfeild Park Trust for the consideration specified in respect of each owner. The bill goes on to outline the different amounts concerned, and then it also requires the three owners to apply the consideration received for the transfer by way of limited recourse loans back to the trust at the home-loan lending rate offered by the BNZ as at 24 September each year. The loans themselves are repayable only if the trust is placed into liquidation. The bill also provides for exclusive and non-exclusive use of parts of the park by the association, to allow it to continue to hold the Feilding A and P show, sheep and ram sales, an open day for mohair producers, shearing championships, cattle shows, and other events, all of which form an historic part of the Feilding community. Members will be aware\u2014in particular, I see Jim Sutton is sitting in the House, and he will certainly be aware\u2014of the impact that the Feilding saleyards have on the Feilding community, and those other events are closely associated with the agricultural basis Feilding provides for the wider rural hinterland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe bill also establishes, interestingly, an electoral college to appoint and remove trustees of the Manfeild Park Trust. The electoral college, in general terms, regulates its own procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOriginally, when I discussed this matter with the Labour Government, we were keen to see the bill expedited through the select committee procedure swiftly, with a report-back date of 27 February 2006. Since that time members of the local iwi have been in touch with both Mr Maharey and me, and they have indicated that they are concerned about one or two outstanding issues relating to the land. Having discussed some of those points with Mr Dennis Emery on behalf of local iwi, and having discussed the matter further with Mr Maharey, it was considered that a report-back date of late March would allow a further month for the iwi representatives to be able to make submissions to the select committee in a considered and timely way, and also to make any representations they may wish to make to Mr Maharey or me directly. I think that is absolutely fair and proper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt seems that the interest claim relates to some part of the Kawakawa Block, which has been owned by the Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata people. That is an issue that will need resolution as the bill progresses, and I understand that the M\u0101ori Party has determined that it will vote against the bill on that basis. My understanding is that no other party in Parliament will be voting against the bill. The other parties will be voting for the bill, which means that, hopefully, extending the time to the end of March will enable sufficient time for iwi to engage in a way that is productive. We hope that the outcome of those discussions, submissions, and the like proves to be satisfactory for all parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI do not intend to say any more than that. I look forward to the swift and constructive contributions that will be made by other parties, leading to my very short reply at the conclusion of this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u00227453f7d866c34fcb9e0efd8b935e23aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227453f7d866c34fcb9e0efd8b935e23aa\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very short call to support this bill. I am delighted that our two local members in the area, Simon Power for Rangitikei and my colleague Steve Maharey from Palmerston North, are supporting this bill, and as I am a resident of Palmerston North, I am delighted that I have this opportunity to support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EMr Power has already explained the detail of the bill. It is a very short bill, and it is really very difficult to add much more to what has been said before. I have known this park for many years myself because I have taken part in the A and P shows held there for many years. I have taken machinery and tractors, particularly new machinery and technologies, over to Feilding to promote them among the farming community. It is a great park, which hosts many, many different activities, as Mr Power has just said. There is a sheep and ram saleyard, open days for many things, shearing championships, and cattle shows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003ESo this park is very essential to the people of Palmerston North and Feilding, and it is very well-used. I am delighted that this bill provides for putting the ownership of the park into a trust, which I think will be very useful in terms of managing the various functions and activities associated with the park. I am delighted to support this bill. I do not think there is a lot I can add, but I am totally in favour of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed337aa09ce04b6c814b7ce171f737dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed337aa09ce04b6c814b7ce171f737dd\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First, likewise, is happy to support this bill, which we think is good common sense. In doing so, we would like to acknowledge the recognition of the local iwi concerned. It is good to see in this House that we are recognising things nowadays that we did not recognise previously, and we have a far more unified society because of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThis bill is common sense, and it is good to see the cooperation between the rural sector and the city environment. It is also good to see that a park such as this is enjoying multi-use. Too often around the country we see one-use facilities built by previous generations no longer fitting the use they were put aside for. Sometimes the wrangling that takes place on a change of use has to be seen to be believed, and does not make any sense at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIn this case, it appears that the multi-use includes the A and P show and motor racing. Motor racing is the one sport I follow, because it does not require me to get my body knocked around too much, and, being a small man, that is not something one wants to happen too often. So it is good to see that the motor racing girls and boys are being looked after and it is good to see that there is cooperation between the rural and the urban environments. It is also good to see a National Party member supporting these things in the community, after some dreadful years when that party seemed intent on burning off every local community in the country\u2014burning off local initiative, burning off anybody who did not have a couple of million bucks to chuck around, and looking after what it saw as the free market and private enterprise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIn spite of that, and out of the goodness of our hearts, we are prepared to overlook all those things that have gone before. We are prepared to overlook the hurt, the nasty gibes that have been flung at us, and the personal attacks we have suffered. We are not only happy to support this bill going to the Local Government and Environment Committee but also we are proud to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u002207328c791cb94c3e8d3d5f2bcebc9f30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207328c791cb94c3e8d3d5f2bcebc9f30\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E As was suggested at the beginning, the M\u0101ori Party is going to oppose this bill. As long as M\u0101ori have a claim along traditional lines, then we will support them, and we would hope that others in the House might do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI rise to speak to this bill because I am aware of the current Waitangi Tribunal claims in relation to the Kawakawa Block\u2014the claim for and on behalf of Ng\u0101ti Raukawa ki Te Tonga, Wai 113. In 1989 Ng\u0101ti Raukawa lodged a claim to the Waitangi Tribunal regarding Lake K\u014Dp\u016Btara. This claim alleges breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi regarding environmental degradation, loss of fisheries, and loss of access. There is also another claim relating to the tribal area of Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata ki Te Tonga, submitted in the context of \u201Csurplus Crown and Local Government Lands\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI think all members of the House need to be cautious of, and respectful about, situations in which Treaty of Waitangi claims are in place. We need to consider what opportunity mana whenua have had to address and resolve their claims through the Waitangi Tribunal, before any further decisions are made about Manfeild Park.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EFurther questions also need to be raised about whether the land at Manfeild Park is indeed in private ownership. As members of this House will know, private land is not generally available for use in Treaty settlements. Claimants and owners of private land are of course free to come to their own arrangements. However, the Crown does not consider it appropriate that it play a role in such a transaction. I believe we need to ask some hard questions about ownership, about the history of land alienation, and about the basis for land transfer, before we can even begin, today, to contemplate the issues affecting the Manfeild Park Trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe also need to understand the history, the utility, and the management of M\u0101ori land, and our experience of land development. Such an opportunity can occur only through robust consultation with mana whenua\u2014in this case, Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata\u2014before significant decisions are made about ancestral land, resources, and the subsequent well-being of the people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EMana whenua invest great meaning in the importance of \u016Bkaip\u014D, t\u016Brangawaewae, takiw\u0101, and rohe. These are traditional names for our relationship to the land. Twenty-five years ago the legislative review committee of the New Zealand M\u0101ori Council issued a statement that speaks of the importance and relevance of land to M\u0101ori. I quote: \u201CM\u0101ori land has several cultural connotations for us. It provides us with a sense of identity, belonging, and continuity. It is proof of our continued existence not only as people, but as tangata whenua. It is proof of our tribal and kin group ties \u2026 It is proof of our link with the ancestors of our past, and with the generation yet to come. It is an assurance that we shall forever exist as a people, for as long as the land shall last.\u201D To M\u0101ori , the land is our mother. Our whenua is the afterbirth, and is absolutely central to our sense of identity. It explains why we are determined, and why we have the passion, to maintain our connections between tangata whenua, atua, t\u012Bpuna; between people, land, spirituality, and our ancestors and their history. The significance of whenua is core to our culture, to our mana, to our belief system, to our being. The land is both history and our future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn this matter, then, the question one keeps returning to is the question of history. Whose history preserves the value of the whenua on which the Manfeild Park Trust has come to rely? Most New Zealanders would know that the Manfeild Autocourse is one of New Zealand\u2019s premier motor sport venues. How many would know it is also part of the Kawakawa Block, which was last surveyed in the 1800s? The history of the Kawakawa Block is an interesting one, worthy of discussion. From the accounts we have received, earlier last century two P\u0101keh\u0101 farmers raised a bank loan from the Bank of New Zealand to improve the land on the Kawakawa Block. However, these two farmers encountered financial problems, so the bank moved in to take the land to cover the debt. Since that time the land has been subject to a number of private sales, with ownership now claimed by the three parties named in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ENearly 75 years ago, in 1932, a petition was brought here to Parliament by tribal elders, outlining the alienation and unlawful taking of their land, known as the Kawakawa Block, in which Manfeild Park is situated. However, due to a series of mishaps, that petition was never tabled in Parliament. The building in which the petition was housed burnt down, with all the documents being lost. What should not be lost is the memory that Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata hold of that time. Although the fire may have destroyed the petition, its flames did not destroy the oral histories passed down to their descendants today. This Parliament has a responsibility to consider that there are others who have a claim to the land. We must not let the efforts of those who petitioned this very Parliament last century be seen to have been in vain by those who petition this very Parliament in 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis bill is based on the post-colonial premise that ownership has been vested in only three separate entities: the Manawat\u016B District Council, the Feilding Industrial, Agricultural and Pastoral Association, and the Manawat\u016B Car Club Inc. This is a view of history that is different from the view I articulated earlier. We need to be able to recognise that in Aotearoa a history existed before the arrival of Abel Tasman\u2014in fact, 1,000 years of history. As we say: \u201CWhatungarongaro te tangata, toit\u016B te whenua.\u201D\u2014\u201CThe people may come and go, but the land will remain for ever in the memories and the minds of the people.\u201D The tribal elders who were on their way here in 1932 are now represented in their descendants who have lodged the claim before the Waitangi Tribunal. These descendants are truly the living faces of their ancestors. Ng\u0101 kanohi ora o r\u0101tou kua mene ki te p\u014D. It is for this reason that the M\u0101ori Party cannot support the Manfeild Park Bill 2005. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 tatou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002215177a1f37cd433ab1b310be409828e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215177a1f37cd433ab1b310be409828e9\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to acknowledge the support of parties to seeing this bill through its first reading, and in particular to a select committee; apart from the slightly bizarre outburst by Doug Woolerton over a misconstrued history of various political parties in this House, I think the debate by and large has been pretty constructive. Could I just say to Dr Sharples that I completely acknowledge the issues that he raises, and I raised those matters in my first reading speech. I must say though that I find it curious that the member and his party have chosen to make a decision to oppose the bill prior to any of the consultative submissions having occurred. I would have thought that the issues raised by Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata will in the end be ones that need to have the committee turn its mind to them in a very serious way, and I am sure it will\u2014Dennis Emery and Mason Durie are very eminent M\u0101ori scholars and well-known identities in the Rangitikei area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBut I think it odd that the M\u0101ori Party would vote against a bill prior to those submissions or consultations being carried out, and I would ask the party when considering the bill to approach the select committee process with the same open mind as the rest of us will, if indeed those concerns are brought to the committee by representatives of Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ECould I just conclude by thanking the House for its support for the bill and, in particular, as I said earlier, my colleague Steve Maharey from the region who has worked with me to ensure that the best possible version of the bill is placed before the House. I await with interest the outcome of the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022518fcac193544c7e8c133b4489784619\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Manfeild Park Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022d04fbecd6fb145759614c5db53bd80bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d04fbecd6fb145759614c5db53bd80bd\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I move That the bill be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee and that the committee report finally to the House on or before 27 March 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c162157adc41481084f10cffe1850d21\u0022\u003EManukau City Council (Control of Graffiti) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfce4e3e707a4201a30db9f4e5b4e75e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022abc38d4c27f149da8995de603bd0f01d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abc38d4c27f149da8995de603bd0f01d\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Manukau City Council (Control of Graffiti) Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EIt is with pleasure that I rise as the member for Manurewa to introduce this bill. The bill has been initiated and drafted by the Manukau City Council in response to what is acknowledged as a costly and an ongoing problem in the Manukau community. In the 2003 and 2004 surveys that measured the quality of life in New Zealand\u2019s eight largest cities, Manukau City ranked the lowest in residents\u2019 ratings of a sense of pride in the way their city looks and feels. One of the main reasons for the low sense of pride is related to the graffiti problem in Manukau. Statistics indicate that over 1,600 sites and over 3,000 graffiti marks need to be cleaned off each month by the Manukau City Council. Over the last 3 years the council has annually spent more than $800,000 on graffiti eradication and community education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe council has considered or undertaken a range of initiatives to deal with graffiti problems. Those include: quick removal, in which any graffiti mark is removed within 24 hours of being reported; community education and empowerment schemes, such as a volunteers programme; best street awards; best school and garden awards; murals; educational puppet shows; youth programmes such as the Vector Manukau Rangers Club; and a plan to design out graffiti. That is a crime prevention environmental design strategy and action plan aimed at minimising, through environmental design, the opportunity for people to commit crimes, including graffiti and vandalism, by having a different look on things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe council has also looked at overseas case studies, and in particular at the South Australia Graffiti Control Act 2001. From the city of Phoenix, the graffiti prevention and code enforcement policies have been closely examined. The council has also considered a by-law review. It has received legal advice that local authorities in New Zealand are not authorised to impose restrictions on acquiring substances used for graffiti by point-of-sale and age-limit restrictions, despite those provisions having proved to be successful in overseas cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe council has also advocated for legislative changes at the central government level. In 2003 Sir Barry Curtis, the Mayor of Manukau, submitted a graffiti remit to the Local Government New Zealand conference, advocating it for adoption by local government in New Zealand. First, it promotes zero tolerance towards unauthorised graffiti, second, it lobbies the Government for legislative changes to ban sales of paint spray-cans and broad-tipped markers to juveniles, and, third, it lobbies the Government to ensure the police have sufficient powers to apprehend offenders, and that penalties reflect the increasing seriousness with which the community views graffiti. The remit was accepted as a conference remit. However, no real, significant progress has thus far been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe council has also considered the problem throughout the Auckland region. A region-wide officers meeting group, sponsored by the city manager of Manukau City, was established in 2004 to study how councils in Auckland could work together to deal with the graffiti problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EDespite the many resources committed and initiatives launched, the Manukau City Council reports that the problem has been escalating. In addition to conventional spray-can graffiti, the council is now trying to deal with newly invented types of graffiti such as ground marks and grass scratchings. That type of graffiti is more difficult and more costly to remove than conventional graffiti. Overseas experience suggests that enforcement is currently a weak link in the council\u2019s anti-graffiti campaign. The council believes that without a legislative deterrent to offenders, Manukau City is fighting a losing battle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe opportunity of introducing a local bill to help Manukau to combat the graffiti problem was raised and discussed in July 2004 with me, as a member of Parliament, with Sir Barry Curtis, the mayor, and with other elected members of the council. I have to say graffiti is a problem that has been going on for many years. I remember that when I became mayor of the adjoining Papakura City in 1983, it was one of the first things that Sir Barry and I discussed. The problem has been going on for a long while. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the Manukau City Council (Control of Graffiti) Bill is, first, to minimise the graffiti problem in Manukau City, second, to penalise graffiti offenders, and, third, to provide the council and the police with additional powers to deal with graffiti-associated problems. The bill goes beyond the existing statutory provisions relating to graffiti, by, first, regulating the display of spray-paint cans in retail premises and their sale to minors. Although that will be controversial, people in Manukau think it is common sense. Second, it creates offences of marking graffiti and carrying a graffiti implement in certain circumstances. Third, it gives the council the power to remove graffiti on private property if it is visible from a public place. That is very, very important, because many people cannot afford to continually remove graffiti from the side of their house or fence when it is visible to the public. The bill also creates infringement offences relating to the display and storage of spray-paint in retail premises, and the marking of graffiti, and it provides the power for the police to require information from, and to arrest, a person suspected of committing an offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe Manukau City Council believes this bill for graffiti control will provide the council with the authority that would not be achieved by a by-law. It will not only defer graffiti offenders but regulate the possession, sale, and display of the tools they use to deface properties. The council also contends that the bill, together with the council\u2019s education and prevention programmes to eliminate graffiti, will help to establish a clean, safe image for Manukau City. The level of graffiti damage varies from city to city, and therefore although the need for legislative methods to help to curb the problem is seen by Manukau as important, that will vary throughout the country. In that regard, a local bill has been put forward as the most appropriate option to introduce legal methods to address the graffiti problem in Manakau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the council and the people of Manakau, I recommend the bill to members for further consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00228e678b94287e47f38e1315db05e98a7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e678b94287e47f38e1315db05e98a7e\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps I should declare an interest in this bill, because I am one of the ratepayers of the Manukau City Council. I am very pleased to be able to support this bill, and to say to Mr Hawkins that I do not think it is so controversial; I think anybody with an ounce of common sense will support this bill. It is all about saying to people in local government: \u201CParliament gives you all these jobs to do, and we\u2019re going to give you the tools to do it.\u201D I think it is a fabulous bill. I am very happy to support it. The National Party is happy to support it. I cannot imagine why anybody in this place would not support it, because it is just so interesting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224436ff590d014f978e915df86ff9f746\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Flog graffiti artists!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022391af1ea5a4b4ffa9e9bf022e8fd3522\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Is Mr Tanczos saying we should flog them? That is a terrible thing, and I suggest that in the National Party we do not believe in beating children. No, no, we will not support the flogging of children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI will not go over all the details that Mr Hawkins has already given us, because he has fully canvassed the bill and done a very good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c7bc02b44a749a184bdf4e6d7f79790\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He could have been a bit more enthusiastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a361ed2a1c784a5b8b69413d1a304116\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he could have been more enthusiastic. But the important fact is that this is kids, mostly, although not always, particularly in the Papakura area, which I am also part of although I am a ratepayer in Manukau, because the police pick up adults in their 20s defacing property with graffiti. Some are in their 20s and 30s\u2014even grandparents, apparently. It beggars belief that anyone of that age, and therefore that responsibility, could do this to other people\u2019s property. Day in, day out, businesses, home-owners, and those who rent those properties have to clean the stuff up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMany of us\u2014and Mr Hawkins as a local MP, Mr Robertson, who is the MP for Manukau East and who will have had exactly the same situation, Mr Williamson, who is the MP for Pakuranga, and those in that particular area will know\u2014have often tried to work with people who sell marker pens, spray-paint cans, and everything else, to get them to put a limit on the age of those to whom they will sell these cans. The problem is that if they do not have the legal standing to do it, those people then put themselves in the gun, should they get some civil libertarian lawyer coming along saying: \u201CI know best.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThat is what happened in Papakura, which is, of course, not part of Manukau City but has the same problems, when the local police were very, very diligent in getting people who had been caught vandalising property with graffiti to clean it up. The local police had them dressed up in little orange outfits required by Occupational Safety and Health, which said things like \u201CPolice diversion\u201D. I thought it was a very good scheme. But some visiting Queen\u2019s Counsel came through the town, saw this, and got upset. Of course, she does not have to live there, work there, or have anything to do with the ratepayers. She went to the Sunday Star-Times, from memory, and complained. So what happened? The police were told not to do that any more. So now they have them in orange outfits without \u201CPolice diversion\u201D. I thought they looked so much better with \u201CPolice diversion\u201D on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThat is the sort of thing that local people have to do, and those of us who work and live in areas like that are sick of being told by central government: \u201CYou sort it out, but we\u2019ll give you no tools to deal with it.\u201D It is a very, very good initiative for Manukau City, and I am sure, should it pass successfully through Parliament\u2014and I have a feeling it will\u2014other councils will say that it is about time they had the same initiative, or that they would like some of the same powers, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI am not quite sure whether I heard the Minister say that the Government will be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228172709580a74a69baab5b4b29e351e5\u0022\u003EGeorge Hawkins\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b541f2f0e8a348c1bff2900ab315b481\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is very good, and, of course, with our numbers I am sure it will be just fine. [Interruption] I say to Mr Tanczos, who is trying to interject, that sometimes it is sensible to have a grand coalition that is to the benefit of the people\u2014the people, in other words, who pay our salaries and the salaries of everyone in this place. So we are very, very keen to support the bill. We are very keen to support this local initiative, and to give the powers to the people who actually have to live there. I am sick and tired of people in their ivory towers telling us in Manukau City what to do, how to do it, and where to do it, and that we should be really inclusive to the point of being inclusive towards graffiti artists. I tell them to come and walk a mile in our shoes and they will find their tolerance will become zero, because ours is. We have had enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u002260d8e1a2dc854dacb3cdadf210a76762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d8e1a2dc854dacb3cdadf210a76762\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Like the previous speaker, I want to declare a vested interest in the bill, being a resident and a ratepayer of Manukau City. So I would support any legislation that would ensure the ratepayers of Manukau City are not burdened by the costs associated with the problems that this bill intends to address. While I am speaking, I want to remind the Manukau City Council that although it feels great about discussing such issues with elected members of Parliament, it does have one or two list members resident in its city, and it would not go amiss to have them considered in such deliberations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EHowever, putting that matter aside, I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to say that we will support this bill going to the select committee. I must say that this bill, which I suspect will be passed, will make Manukau City the first one in New Zealand to have strict anti-graffiti laws. But it also poses the question that if it is good for Manukau City, then it should also be considered for other local bodies throughout the country. Perhaps during the process of this bill through the different processes that are available to the House, submissions may be received from other local bodies that wish to do something similar for their city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E The bill raises one or two issues that I think ought to be considered during the select committee stage. Although it mentions crayons and spray-paints only, several businesses in the local community of the part of Manukau City that I reside in recently had the windows to their shop fronts subjected to etching. Although reference to etching is made in passing in the bill, I think that it ought to be given more prominence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EIt also raises another issue about how the agency that is charged with law enforcement decides intent. As we heard from the previous speaker, the people who are committing those acts against their local community are quite clearly not just confined to the youth of our city but are also adults and those people whom one would consider to be of a mature age. If one is apprehended in Manukau City going about one\u2019s own daily business while carrying a crayon, a marker, or even a spray-can, how is intent to be measured? That is one of the issues that will need to be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EOf course, the bill recognises overseas evidence that suggests deterrent legislation is necessary to combat this problem. Enforcement is currently a weak link in the anti-graffiti campaign in Manukau. The bill is cognisant of the \u201Cbroken windows\u201D approach to crime introduced in New York City under the mayoralty of Mayor Giuliani in 1994, which was based on the theory that neighbourhoods that neglect minor signs of decay and disorder open the door to serious crime. That zero-tolerance approach to even low-level crime resulted in a dramatic drop in overall crime rates in New York, especially serious crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI say that, notwithstanding the results the local area command is having in terms of law enforcement, its task would be made much easier if the \u201Cbroken windows\u201D approach that I have alluded to is adopted in order to address this serious issue. Graffiti is seen as a huge, ongoing antisocial problem in Manukau, which has an adverse impact on the city\u2019s image. The member in charge of this bill certainly alluded to that issue. He also alluded to the fact that it is costing the council hugely in terms of money and resources that it would prefer to direct towards positive community projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to address the escalating nature of the problems associated with graffiti. Therefore, on behalf of New Zealand First, I stand to indicate our support for this bill being referred to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00222b228058999b43f7b2b3f425109b9a93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b228058999b43f7b2b3f425109b9a93\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to point out the numerous reasons why the Green Party will not support this bill going to a select committee. It does have a couple of provisions in it that are worth this House considering\u2014and I will mention those as I talk my way through the bill\u2014but the areas of the bill that are repugnant to basic principles of justice are so overwhelming that, on balance, we cannot support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EMr Paraone said that, if enacted, this bill would mean that Manukau would have the first strict anti-graffiti laws in the country. Well, actually, what it will mean is that Manukau will be the only place in this country where the basic right to silence guaranteed in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act will no longer apply for certain offences. It will be the only place in the country where that has been enacted. Members of this House, before they get too carried away about the fact that they do not like tagging on their garages and their walls, need to think about what the bill actually does, not just what they think it does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELet us go through the bill. Clause 6 is \u201CCans of spray paint to be secured\u201D. I found that clause quite interesting. Normally we require shops to lock away guns and things that are dangerous to other people\u2014things that can kill people, and the like. Presumably, the only reason behind the idea of requiring by law that cans of paint be locked away is to stop them from being stolen. I cannot see any other basis. That is pretty weird. I find it quite strange that this House is requiring businesses to lock away products in a locked cupboard so that they do not get stolen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df0a73fc867b4e98b6e8e12ea722b6a4\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Pharmaceuticals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aa026029dbd443baa43618d81c14830\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: Pharmaceuticals are a different thing, because there is the possibility of overdose, death, and serious harm. This is about people not liking their fences being tagged. The other interesting thing in terms of locking cans away is that the legislation will not apply to all cans, because the council can agree in writing that some kinds of cans can be stored openly. The council, because it likes these cans but not those ones, can suddenly decide that those cans have to be locked away and these ones do not. Will that apply in respect of shops? Will the council be able to send a letter to certain shops to say that some do not need to lock their cans away but others do? This bill opens a very interesting door to all kinds of weird and arbitrary powers that will now become available to the Manukau City Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces an age restriction. Both George Hawkins and Judith Collins talked about the fact that an age restriction cannot be enacted by a by-law, and I accept that. I think there are arguments for introducing an age-limit, but the point is that we do not need to enact this extraordinary legislation in order to put in an age limit. We can do that without bringing with it all these other breaches of basic rights that are guaranteed to us in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EClause 9 states that an authorised person who is given a warrant by the council can enter premises and investigate whether the provisions are being complied with, and can take photographs or make films or other recordings. It does not in any way indicate what \u201Cinvestigate\u201D might mean. Does it mean that people could go in and start searching through computer files, check customer databases, and do those kinds of things? Again, that is a pretty broad scope to give to people just because they have a letter from a council saying that they can investigate whether businesses are selling spray cans to 16-year-olds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EClause 10(1), \u201CMarking of graffiti\u201D, states: \u201CEvery person commits an offence who without lawful authority marks graffiti.\u201D, which the interpretation defines as \u201Cto deface property in any way\u201D. The really interesting stuff comes in clause 11, \u201CCarrying graffiti implement\u201D: \u201C(1) Every person commits an offence who\u2014(a) carries a graffiti implement with the intention of using it to mark graffiti without lawful authority;\u201D. Mr Paraone raised the very important question of how we decide whether someone has an intention to mark graffiti. That is already covered, because clause 11(1)(b) states that every person commits an offence who \u201Ccarries a graffiti implement of a prescribed class without lawful excuse \u2026\u201D. So there does not even need to be an intention to mark graffiti; all a person needs to do is carry a spray can to commit an offence under this bill. Of course, we know that not everyone will be done for carrying a spray can. Only the young and the poor\u2014probably young M\u0101ori poor\u2014will be stung by this. We know that that is how these things get enforced on the street. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWhat is meant by a \u201Cprescribed class\u201D of graffiti implement? Let us have a look at that. What does the bill say? Well, one would think the bill would be quite specific. One would think it would lay out quite clearly the kinds of prescribed implements that a person can be found guilty of simply possessing, never mind whether he or she has an intention to use them to mark graffiti. One would think it would be specific. But no, graffiti implements are: \u201Ccapable of spraying paint or a similar substance:\u201D. Clearly this is aimed at spray cans, but it can include spray guns and all kinds of things like that. As I said, people do not have to have an intention to mark graffiti with the implement; they just have to have it on their person. \u201CPrescribed class\u201D includes \u201Cgraffiti implements designed or modified to produce a mark that\u2014(i) is not readily removable by wiping or by use of water or detergent; and (iii) is more than 15 millimetres wide. So if a person has a marker pen with a tip that is more than 1\u00BD centimetres wide:\u201D, that person would be committing an offence under this Act. People do not have to have an intention to tag, to graffiti, or to do anything; they just have to have such implements in their pockets and under this Act they would be committing an offence. I find that absolutely extraordinary. I notice that members of the National Party have suddenly buried their heads under their desks very quickly now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other concern is paragraph (c) of clause 11(3): \u201Cgraffiti implements capable of etching glass.\u201D That means that if a person is wearing a diamond ring, he or she is committing an offence under this bill, because the ring is capable of etching glass. The person does not need to have an intention to mark graffiti; he or she just needs to be carrying something \u201Ccapable of etching glass.\u201D [Interruption] I invite the honourable member to read the bill before he starts scoffing. He should read the bill and see what it says. Those are exactly its words. But we know that if a rich lawyer with a diamond ring is walking down the road in Manukau, he or she is unlikely to have any police officer try to take it and charge him or her. The provision is clearly aimed at one section of our society and at one age demographic, and I think that is repugnant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EPart 4 details \u201CCouncil powers in relation to graffiti\u201D, and clause 12 provides that a council may remove or obliterate graffiti on private property. It is a very good part, and that is a very good provision. It makes absolute sense. Some people do not have the time, money, or inclination to clean up the graffiti on their property, but they are quite happy for the council to come and do it. If the council thinks it can afford it, and if the council is so inclined, we should let it do that\u2014absolutely. We have no problem with that. There is an interesting little subclause, though\u2014clause 12(5): \u201CNo civil liability attaches to the Council, an employee of the Council, or a person acting under the authority of the Council, for anything done by the Council, employee, or person under this section.\u201D So if the council says it will clean up the graffiti on someone\u2019s garage door, but accidentally drives a truck through the garage, demolishes it, and writes off the car, there is no civil liability attached. Well, that is a nice little out for Manukau City Council, is it not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EPart 5 talks about infringement notices. It allows for infringement notices to be given, and that is something we support. Currently, sanctions already apply in relation to graffiti under wilful damage, bill sticking, defacing, and such provisions in the Summary Proceedings Act, and in section 269 of the Crimes Act, under \u201CIntentional damage\u201D. But those are all criminal sanctions, so I think it is very good that the bill might introduce infringement notices instead. That is a good thing; it is a part the Greens support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI am a little bit concerned that the serving of a notice will simply include posting it to the person\u2019s last known place of residence or business, and that it is treated as having been served when it is posted. A lot of the people this bill is specifically designed to target are young people and highly mobile, and the last place the council knows of for where they live could have been three, four, or five addresses ago. So I am a little bit concerned that we will end up with people having increased costs because their cases will go to court as they never got their infringement notices in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe last thing I would like to touch on in the brief moment I have left is Part 6, which is the really serious part. If a police officer or authorised person\u2014that is, a person authorised by the council\u2014believes on reasonable grounds that a person is committing or has committed an offence under this Act, the authorised person can direct that person to give his or her name and address. Well, that is pretty standard. But that authorised person can also direct him or her to give, to the extent known, the name, address, and whereabouts of any other person connected in any way with the alleged offence. If he or she refuses to do so, he or she is committing an offence under this part. Well, that goes far beyond the normal rights of questioning that the police have. It is a breach of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and a breach of the basic right to silence. It is interesting that the Local Government Act requires by-laws to be consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, but of course that does not apply to this Parliament\u2014so is that why Manukau has brought legislation to this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022d34ad954da78458ca384ddf8dc167804\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d34ad954da78458ca384ddf8dc167804\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E The purpose of this bill is to provide for local control over the graffiti problem in Manukau. It is that word \u201Ccontrol\u201D that encapsulates the range of issues the M\u0101ori Party has with this bill. I will return to that later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI want first to look at the problem of graffiti. I am aware of the concerns that have prompted the Manukau City Council to take up this matter in the House. Indeed, as a local member I am aware that there are concerns, shared by constituents across Tamaki Makaurau, that demand our attention. In the 2003 survey on the quality of life in New Zealand\u2019s eight largest cities, Manukau featured as one of the five cities that perceived graffiti as being problematic. The big-city survey described graffiti as impacting on the way people feel about where they live, contributing to people feeling unsafe in their neighbourhood. Over half of the residents surveyed in Manukau and Auckland\u201462 percent and 52 percent respectively\u2014stated that graffiti was a big problem in their neighbourhood. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWhen I hear the honourable Minister talk of zero tolerance for graffiti writers, I wonder about the direction in which our society is going. I would have thought that zero tolerance would be reserved for serious crime. We need fresh ideas, creative courage, and passion for our people. It should not be for us in Wellington to determine a set of solutions that we consider would suit the streets of Manukau. We must turn to the people of Manukau for that leadership\u2014I emphasise: the people of Manukau, not just the Manukau City Council. The Maori Party believes that people have the solutions. Solutions do not reside in the halls of bureaucracy, whether that bureaucracy is in the debating chamber of Parliament or in the council chamber of Manukau City. Our responsibility as central or local agents of government should be to look for ways to support local solutions to locally determined problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe solutions proposed in this bill consist of fines and wide-ranging powers for the council and police to get tough\u2014and to get even. Such solutions are Draconian and overly punitive, introducing a level of power and control coming up that responds to the issue of graffiti in a way that can only have serious consequences for the individuals involved. Are these the solutions that the people of Manukau want? When did they speak up to call for increased power for the police and council authorities? It sounds like a solution I heard that was promulgated to solve the problem of youth gangs: round them up and lock them up. I have been to community meetings in M\u0101ngere, \u014Ctara, Manukau, Manurewa, and Papatoetoe, and I have seen concerned citizens being really creative in dealing with the gang problem, in a healing manner and with long-term solutions in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221022ffdaf31848f590a8152e8d738021\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Did it work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022139ef10113874164a22e0fd8d3b40a76\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES\u003C/span\u003E: It is working. I have spoken in this House before about the appalling increase in incarceration rates in this country. Let me remind members that there has been a 51 percent increase in less than 9 years, from 4,988 people in jail in April 1997 to a staggering 7,545 inmates a couple of weeks ago. When we think about who our youth population is, particularly in Manukau, it will not take much imagination for us to work out who will be first to be convicted. It is rangatahi, the youth. Why do the city mothers and fathers of Manukau want to incarcerate their young? Who will be the next to annoy them? Why is it the case that the only answers being created by central and local government seem to be the ones that lead down a justice trajectory? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party believes that people must determine their own solutions. That applies as much to the issue of graffiti as it does to other issues, like that of youth street gangs fighting. We should not fear letting go of central control and providing space for citizens to shape our thinking in that regard. I asked around about different ideas from people outside of Manukau\u2014about what they had considered in facing this problem of graffiti. The responses were overwhelming in their commitment to local innovation. In my colleague Hone Harawira\u2019s town of Kait\u0101ia, I heard about Project Wipeout, which involves the Community Probation Service, the police, and local businesses. The safer community council supplies brushes and equipment, Kait\u0101ia businesses supply paint to match their buildings, and a backpack is provided to the offender for the prompt removal of graffiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E I move south now to Te Uruora Flavell\u2019s electorate of Waiariki and mention that the Tauranga City Council has established an 0800 SPEAK UP line for giving confidential information to police, whilst also supporting the immediate removal of graffiti in all public places and visible private property through contracting removal services. Across the straits to Te Wai Pounamu, the Kahurangi Employment Trust initiative helps keep Nelson graffiti-free and litter-free through a community project that encourages so-called alienated youth to receive mentoring and to learn working skills. These are all ways to tackle the issue of graffiti in a way that serves the community, introduces an element of rehabilitation to the offender, and avoids adding another statistic to our rates of arrest and conviction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis House must not set in place legislation that stifles creativity. Creativity is particularly important when considering the art of graffiti. The word \u201Cgraffiti\u201D simply means words or drawings scratched or scribbled on a wall. The word comes from the Greek term \u201Cgraphein\u201D, meaning \u201Cto write\u201D, and the word \u201Cgraffiti\u201D is the plural of the Italian word \u201Cgraffito\u201D. Art in the form of graffiti originated in the late 1960s, but graffiti in terms of public and unsolicited markings has been around forever. For those of us in this House who remember the 1960s, we may remember the words of musicians Simon and Garfunkel, in their classic hit \u201CThe Sound of Silence\u201D, which are: \u201CThe words of the prophets were written on the subway walls and the tenement halls\u201D. Back in Aotearoa the words of the prophets were given status in June 1986, when a Wellington building from the 1900s was covered in graffiti by up to 2000 people. What criminal sanctioned this appalling act of vandalism? It was none other that the New Zealand Historic Places Trust, which encouraged the graffiti to save the Missions to Seamen building. The graffiti included such messages as: \u201CDon\u2019t leave us with no yesterday\u201D and \u201CSave me\u201D. Graffiti was called upon as a desperate public action to save the building. The \u201CSign It to Save It\u201D campaign was ultimately successful as the Missions to Seamen building became a landmark of public significance. Earlier this year the graffiti exhibition Love Letters was an ambitious art exhibition that was part of AK05, the Auckland festival. The heart of the city exhibition gave prominence to Bucklands Building in Takutai Square, and was also seen as art, not crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESo what is different about Manukau? The act of graffiti can be seen as a defiant act of vandalism, or it can be seen as a statement of identity, a social commentary, or an art form. The graffiti art that emerged in New York in the 1970s became associated with the explosion of hip-hop culture in the 1980s. Inevitably, here in Aotearoa the influence of M\u0101ori and Pasifika taggers gave it a local edge. The Disrupt Gallery in Karangahape Road could be one site visit that I would recommend every member of Parliament having a look at. The gallery displays the talents of the graffiti art collective Disruptiv, and the works in that gallery are a celebration of identity. Indeed, even to the novice the distinctive art of an individually styled name is the focal point in the majority of graffiti paintings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe in this House need to be brave with our decisions and not reduce every problem to a quick fix, fine, or arrest. The problem of graffiti is one of arrested creativity, and it is with creativity that we should respond. All that increasing the capacity of the police and the city council officials to surveil, arrest, and fine offenders will do is to add to our justice hall of shame. We could instead look to create a hall of fame through encouraging communities and individuals to consider alternatives for the creativity and talent of the taggers to be put to constructive means. It may well mean that we reduce and minimise the risk for graffiti to be an act of vandalism and in the process create opportunities for the growth of art and culture, celebrate identities, and build community spirit, and, in doing so, create solutions that we can all sign up to. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022b145e76688ea4ebf85b9a16e7738ee7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b145e76688ea4ebf85b9a16e7738ee7c\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak to the Manukau City Council (Control of Graffiti) Bill. I say at the outset that we will be supporting the first reading of this bill in response to the request of the city council involved, which obviously feels it has a problem it wants to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe very first thing that occurred to me when I read this bill was the Broken Windows project in New York. It was interesting to grab some literature on that project, and some of the research that has come even from within New Zealand shores in that regard, and read the thinking behind it. The concern that many authors who write on this problem have is that if we decriminalise disreputable behaviour that \u201Charms no one\u201D, and thus remove the ultimate sanction the police can employ to maintain neighbourhood order, we are making a mistake. For instance, arresting a drunk or a vagrant who has not harmed anybody in an identifiable way can seem unjust, but failing to do anything about a score of drunks, or 100 vagrants, can actually destroy an entire community. Small things do matter. However, I do share some concerns that have been expressed by the Green member about how we should respond to this. Although we have some concerns with the bill as proposed, our reason for supporting it is the opportunity to iron out its wrinkles in the select committee process. We believe that that opportunity should be afforded Manukau City, because it is obviously facing some huge issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAlthough in certain contexts graffiti is an art form that can, and should, be celebrated, I believe that graffiti painted on my fence without my permission is an act of vandalism, and it should be seen as such. We should not try to confuse the two. My own personal feeling about graffiti is that when I see it, particularly in urban areas, the message conveyed to me is: \u201CNobody cares about this place\u201D. When people are led to believe that the environment they live in and connect with is not worth caring about, then\u2014as is well documented\u2014there is a deterioration in society\u2019s behaviour in general. A thesis, Broken Windows, written back in 1986, linked behavioural decline in communities to what happens in a neighbourhood when a building has a broken window that is not repaired. The simple conclusion of that simple observation was that one broken window left broken resulted in a lot of broken windows in the same building and in the same neighbourhood. People in that neighbourhood began to feel unsafe in their own streets and moved out, the criminal element moved in, and an unsafe environment was created. The police, in New York in particular, started to take a harder line on what we would refer to as petty crime\u2014like tagging, like jumping over the barrier to get into the subway without paying, like begging\u2014and decided to make some real inroads into the area of petty crimes. As a consequence, they saw a decline in the more concerning areas of crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe are all aware of the recent publicity in Manukau about gangs, and about some of the concerns that community has. So, with the reservations that have been well clarified by other parties, I think that this bill is worthy of consideration. Untied Future is very happy to support its first reading. We look forward to seeing the submissions on it. We would like to encourage the select committee, as it considers the bill, to look also at some of the projects dealing with the problem of graffiti. For instance, Hamilton\u2019s safer communities project has done some really interesting things regarding graffiti. Also, Dr Pita Sharples mentioned some other initiatives up and down the country that he is aware of, where a different and less punitive approach has been tried and has had some success. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIt may be that there is not a one-size-fits-all approach to this problem, and the suggestion that the Manukau City Council has put forward may be the solution for that community, but I am not prepared to make a judgment on that right now. I think we need to be aware that when we enshrine in law initiatives of this kind a precedent is set, and we could expect other councils to take action if this bill passes in its current form. We need to make sure that the consequences and the flow-on effect from that is what we are looking for. But United Future is happy to support the first reading and to see the work progressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u002227c53a07cbcf41258fbd418a3e890669\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227c53a07cbcf41258fbd418a3e890669\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I start by thanking members for their contributions. I do not agree with all of them, but I think the vast majority of them believe that the Manukau City Council should have its day before the select committee, and I think that is very important. I know that there are concerns in relation to the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and the select committee is the place to thrash that out. I think that a select committee examining things carefully\u2014many heads together\u2014will ensure that this legislation eventually becomes law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EMany people in Manukau City have for a long while tried to overcome the problem of graffiti. They have been doing so for many years. I do not see graffiti sprayed on someone\u2019s garage or wall as creative. I see it as a mess, and I am a former art teacher who encouraged people to be creative. I see graffiti as being a wee bit like a bird crapping in its own nest. It spoils the community. The people of Manukau want a better community\u2014one that is respected by all the people who live in it. We have good people like the Rev. Mark Beale out on Saturdays with a group of people cleaning up graffiti, as are Bill Marshall and plenty of other people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214784a97d2224fbc8a3a5521a5edc89c\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5af412da584223b66ed23b6462522c\u0022\u003EGEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I have often cleaned up graffiti. I do not mind going down and cleaning something off a building for people if it means cleaning up graffiti. If it means slapping on a paint brush, good on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI think the time has come when people are starting to take back their community, and they are bringing back some pride. It is about time that those who have concerns bring them to the select committee, have them examined, and make this bill even better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a8c50594fad44d9a82420dee9818e0aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Manukau City Council (Control of Graffiti) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 45; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022749dfdce1ec24020a18dec2d1ffb4f9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022749dfdce1ec24020a18dec2d1ffb4f9b\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Local Government and Environment Committee consider the Manukau City Council (Control of Graffiti) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00223dd1db24957c4837b6db2281e49b015f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dd1db24957c4837b6db2281e49b015f\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Although the member has mentioned which committee, is there any necessity to have a report-back date on this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00229fd5561e4db647658ce198cac8589157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fd5561e4db647658ce198cac8589157\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I think the committee has only 6 months before it has to be reported back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b48fa7353724778b2bd4a2d3b78a39f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022889de875379a45d4ab9ae85c898bd559\u0022\u003EManukau City Council (Control of Street Prostitution) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6fb2aebd74c41e4a25a70dfff4fd026\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00227dea6acfe9344169ba55e2948ded11bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dea6acfe9344169ba55e2948ded11bc\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Manukau City Council (Control of Street Prostitution) Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003ELet me begin by explaining to those members unfamiliar with the Counties-Manukau region of Auckland that it is unique in New Zealand, both in its diversity and in some of the problems it faces. It has over 160 different ethnic groups living in it, and it has some very large problems. However, Manukau is also New Zealand\u2019s second-largest city and its most culturally diverse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208dda00ee0f54017bb09cb9310698d1c\u0022\u003EHon Jim Sutton\u003C/span\u003E: Hookers\u2019 capital!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d01cab6099be4f2f98c3272aa50cf2ff\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, my colleague says that it is the hookers\u2019 capital. Many people who go around Manukau at night would probably agree with him that that is absolutely true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EManukau is a very young city. About 40 percent of its population is under 25 years of age. Since its appearance in the late 1990s, street prostitution has become a significant and ongoing community concern. It has become established in suburban town centres that are now surrounded by traditional residential housing. Those areas include Hunters Corner in Papatoetoe, \u014Ctara Town Centre, and the Great South Road in Manurewa. There is a particular concern that the number of sex workers appears to be rising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd2a9c6de5144202bd7c66af57e0be3a\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t advertise, George.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8dec4bcf0a84b8fa07cf4fd1d74df2d\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We do not need to advertise; they are out there every night, mate! In June 2003 the police established that there were 326 sex workers in the Counties-Manukau area, of whom 150 were street workers. There is anecdotal evidence that young people are increasingly being drawn into the world of street prostitution, and that was highlighted in a recent television investigation. The Manukau City Council contends that such soliciting makes people feel uncomfortable and unsafe, creates unwanted attention, and is a general nuisance to the population. The council says that street prostitution also encourages gangs and criminal behaviour, illicit drugs, substance abuse, and intimidating behaviour in areas where sex workers are present. What really annoys a lot of people is that those involved in prostitution have a huge impact on the community. Condoms have been left in school grounds and shop doorways and, of course, someone has to clean them up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c1d7c0a76d245b2a687946f6fe2b6c2\u0022\u003EGEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Manukau City Council has committed itself to trying to do something about the problem of street prostitution. It has already invested considerable time and resources. Residents\u2019 concerns have been incorporated into the council\u2019s strategic policy documents, including its long-term council community plan. The council community plan is more than just a pile of words. The Manukau City Council itself, of course, has been acting. It has been lobbying for increased police involvement, the installation of additional street lighting, the rescheduling of times for street cleaning, and the closing of public toilets and car parks, to make sure that it has done everything it can do to eliminate street prostitution as far as possible. However, the problem still exists. The council has installed CCTV and used environmental design guidelines, yet, in the end, the problem remains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThose who have been to Manukau and seen the problem for themselves will know just how ghastly it is. I know that my colleague Dover Samuels visited Manukau to see it for himself, and my colleague Tim Barnett met with the council to try to find ways to help it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI think this Parliament took a big step forward when it legalised prostitution so that sex workers were generally able to operate from safe, regulated, and legal brothels. However, in Manukau there is a situation where street prostitution remains. This bill will of course be contentious, but I ask the House to send it off to the Local Government and Environment Committee for further consideration. Yes, there are Bill of Rights considerations to be explored. The council does not intend, nor does it want, to re-criminalise prostitution in the whole of the city, but it wants legal brothels, which this Parliament has provided for\u2014although some people want to remain outside that provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EIt is not just the street prostitutes who are the problem; it is also the men who use the services of those prostitutes. Some of them are married, some of them are reasonably well-known\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0571a73d37b4a349fc5f59de4e79b5f\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Name them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ebd67c561c4783911ce7bd698aafe1\u0022\u003EGEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I was not going to name anyone, at all, but the problem is, I think, that people have been attempting to do so by photographing the cars and the curb crawling that has been going on. The council says that it is doing what it can, but that it now wants some help from Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EGiven the unique nature of Manukau, and the unique problems it is facing, this bill is a way forward for its people. On behalf of the council and the people of Manukau, I recommend this bill for further consideration. I have to say that Manukau has a council that works with its community. If it could have solved this problem easily by itself it would have done so, but for years it has been trying to overcome the problem\u2014where condoms have to be cleaned up out of school playgrounds before the kids get to school, and where shopkeepers have to get rid of condoms before they open for business each day. That is not a fair go. The community realises that it is not the council\u2019s fault that the problem exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThis Parliament, not so long ago, tried to do something about the problem, but the people involved have remained outside that attempt, and now we have to look at the overall problem. I ask members in the House tonight to vote for the bill to go to the Local Government and Environment Committee, so that it can be closely examined. When a council is prepared to face up to a problem, I think that that council deserves to have the support of Parliament. There are problems in terms of Bill of Rights considerations, but that should not make people vote against the bill going to a select committee. So I ask all members here tonight to ensure that they do the right thing by a council that is trying to do the right thing by its citizens. Let us help to clean up a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022463e43477e8b4228940e06a79f017420\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022463e43477e8b4228940e06a79f017420\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will support the referral of the Manukau City Council (Control of Street Prostitution) Bill to the Local Government and Environment Committee. I fully agree with the words just uttered by my parliamentary colleague George Hawkins that there is a problem. I congratulate Sir Barry Curtis and his council on this innovative way of coming up with a solution to their particular problem. But Parliament needs to discuss how the problem arose in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe very interesting thing that I managed to get from the Parliamentary Library was the voting record of one Hon George Hawkins when the Prostitution Reform Bill was before Parliament. Here we have a piece of legislation\u2014a local bill\u2014introduced by the Hon George Hawkins to tidy up a mess created by this Parliament when it passed the Prostitution Reform Bill. How did George Hawkins vote on that legislation? Members will be surprised to know that, lo and behold, on the first reading there is no record of his vote. [Interruption] Well, we had a few abstentions on that bill. I remember one Mr Choudhary, who sat in the back corner after he slunk into Parliament to cast an abstention vote. But on the first reading of the Prostitution Reform Bill, no vote was recorded by George Hawkins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe new members of Parliament should not be surprised by that, because George Hawkins spent an extraordinary amount of time out of the House. He is the former Minister of Police. In question time we regularly had questions for the Minister of Police, and they were frequently answered by everybody other than the then Minister of Police, George Hawkins, because he was a complete embarrassment. But then I looked at how he voted in the second reading of the Prostitution Reform Bill, and\u2014surprise, surprise\u2014he voted for it. When we came to the third reading he voted for the Prostitution Reform Bill. Here we are, about 12 months later, with the first initiative by a local council that says that that legislation was a total disaster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI am pleased that the architect of the Prostitution Reform Bill, Tim Barnett, is in the House tonight. However, he was not the real architect. That bill was prepared and put into Parliament at the instruction of Helen Clark. Tim Barnett was the sucker\u2014the name\u2014who came forward and put his name to the bill. I remember debating it in the House. I said to him: \u201CTwo things will happen. There will be far more prostitution on the streets.\u201D Tim Barnett said that there would not be, and here we are with the Manukau City Council telling us that it wants a local bill passed because of that. The other thing many local Aucklanders have told me is that the reason this matter is such a problem is the number of young kids\u201418 years and younger\u2014who are standing on the street corners of Manukau selling themselves. Again, Tim Barnett argued that that would not happen. It just goes to show how naive he and everybody else in this Parliament was in voting for the legislation. Of course we were going to see under 18-year-olds standing on the street corners selling themselves. We made it a legitimate profession in this country for people to be able to leave school and choose to be a prostitute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec02a23e4ef4f4fa9717e6e5a402d4f\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Not under 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ec669f57a464710878febdcb75c82ea\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Sue Bradford is absolutely right. They cannot be under 18. She thought that because the law says \u201Cnot under 18\u201D it would not happen. That is how naive Sue Bradford was with this legislation. Of course it was going to happen! And now Sir Barry Curtis comes along. He is a great mate of the Labour Party, but his is the very first council that has come up with an innovative solution to a disastrous piece of social legislation. So National will support the bill\u2019s referral to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIt will be interesting to see when the other councils come up with a similar solution. Parliament passes a stupid law and straight away councils are having to come back and ask for a solution to it. I think that this bill should go to a select committee, and I also invite other city councils, all around New Zealand, that are striking similar problems to those recognised by Manukau City Council to come forward with local bills. I invite Ashraf Choudhary to cast a vote this time. Members should not be pressured by Helen Clark, who knew the numbers were so tight and actually started to instruct people within her caucus how to vote. [Interruption] She did not instruct me, I can assure that man. I do not take instruction from Helen Clark. Peter Brown might, Winston Peters definitely does\u2014we know that; we have seen it all day today in the House\u2014but I do not take instruction from Helen Clark. I decided how I would vote on my conscience, and I am quite proud of the way I voted. I think my vote was correct, and I think the very fact we have got this sort of legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022674d23032bad4168a08e22c5417b2305\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Which way did your leader go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cbc9ed23c8a42818764bcfd9e1b65b3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot remember how my leader voted. That does not matter. He made up his own mind and cast his vote. He was not like Ashraf Choudhary, who had to get an instruction, and then sat in the back corner and abstained. He would not be prepared to come into Parliament, because the votes were that close. If my memory serves me right, the bill passed by one vote. In fact, Ashraf Choudhary could have stopped that legislation from passing, and we would not be facing the first local bill introduced by the Hon George Hawkins on behalf of Sir Barry Curtis because that legislation was disastrous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EGeorge Hawkins came into the House after voting for that legislation, after sitting through hours of debate\u2014certainly for the second and third readings\u2014and after being told by people who opposed the legislation that there would be more prostitutes on the street corners, more condoms in the school yards, and more under-18-year olds, and he did not believe that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bfce0f68a9f4686a6acf8d6439361a9\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s your proof of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022556221e266bd4757b76e5b0137f71c5e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask members to listen to what the promoter of the bill said. Only 5 minutes ago, the Hon George Hawkins, who was supporting this legislation\u2019s referral to the select committee, went as far as to name the street corners that were causing problems. That is my proof. He is the local member. He knows the problem is occurring, so my question is: why does he not admit he was wrong in voting for the legislation in the first place? That is the real issue. We have similar problems in Christchurch City Council. I can name the street corners where there this has been a problem. I know that there has been a lot of media coverage in the paper about the young kids under 18 years of age. [Interruption] Peter Brown seems to think it is funny. I do not. I say to Peter Brown that I have young children and I do not want them to take on a career of prostitution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111a429813a74b3fa96e9d7ba522549e\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf63c4845f84af48d1efd3f0a65593f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Right\u2014so it is not a joke. Anybody who voted for that legislation, and stupidly said that because we legalise prostitution we will not have a problem with under-age people taking up prostitution, was, frankly, either naive, or stupid, or both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fed08356bf54496dadfc10468c968d12\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: The member is exactly right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022565563be819040afa5ddf6a5eae09806\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased the member agrees with me on this occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I say to George Hawkins that I look forward to the submissions received before the select committee, and I look forward to other councils taking the initiative that Sir Barry Curtis has taken. Shortly we will have this sort of legislation being debated before many select committees, and we will have a chance to revisit that original legislation. It will be interesting to see how Tim Barnett votes for this legislation. I suspect he will probably go through the Ayes lobby with the Labour caucus. I hope he takes a call. George Hawkins and Tim Barnett should stand in Parliament and admit they got it wrong, like many, many New Zealanders said at the last election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2e7ec77f6344d2b9646700dc4bdb09a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2e7ec77f6344d2b9646700dc4bdb09a\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think you are aware that New Zealand First will be taking a split call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3cc30aa040a408ab04583a3711aa350\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I will give you a bell at 4 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd904970a794fd19572a546af5754f1\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to say right from the outset that we will support this bill going to a select committee. Again, I will comment on the original legislation that has led to this bill coming before the House at this time. I can recall that three New Zealand First MPs, two of whom were list MPs from South Auckland, stood in this House to oppose that legislation, for the very reasons that previous speakers have talked about. Although I commend the Manukau City Council for sponsoring this bill, I find it very ironical that it asked one of the very members who supported the original legislation to bring this bill to the House on its behalf. The three New Zealand First MPs who opposed the legislation at the time were not even asked to consider this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EIn spite of that, as a ratepayer and resident of Manukau City, I support the bill. It is certainly a reflection of just how wrong the original legislation was. I can recall speakers who supported the original legislation saying that it would bring safety to those who chose to enter that particular industry. I ask those members just how much safety the legislation brought to the two young ladies who, since its passing, have lost their lives. I think this bill will certainly go some way towards addressing that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe bill recognises that street prostitution is not conducive to any of the aims of the Prostitution Reform Act, which was sold and debated on the basis of safeguarding the health and safety of sex workers and of limiting the age of sex workers to 18 years and over. This bill recognises the impact of street prostitution on local residents and business owners, and the negative effect it has on the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EEach community and local body has the responsibility of ensuring that the terms of the Act are implemented. I believe that this bill signals the difficulty that all local bodies\u2014not only Manukau City\u2014have in ensuring that the terms and intent of the Act are met. Although some of us have some concerns about parts of the bill, we believe that by referring it to a select committee we will give the opportunity to members of the wider community to make a contribution. It will also provide the opportunity for other local bodies to express their views, if they share a concern about this issue with Manukau City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe Act has clearly failed to control street prostitution, and it provides no legal mechanism to do so. Manukau City should be applauded for taking the initiative to control behaviour that is having an adverse impact on the people of that city. The bill also provides the police with powers to request information, to issue instant fines, and to arrest and prosecute suspected offenders. Sadly, a lot of my relatives reside in the part of Manukau City that has been identified in some of the summaries of this bill, and I am sad to say that, unfortunately, some of my relatives are actually involved. It will be interesting to see the stance the M\u0101ori Party will take, if we take into consideration that its leader supported the original Prostitution Reform Bill. I will be very interested to see those members\u2019 response to this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcb4a897f2da4024b61781a31a16a605\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcb4a897f2da4024b61781a31a16a605\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I find myself in a somewhat unusual position at this moment. I have to congratulate the Hon David Carter on the speech he gave a few moments ago. He was absolutely correct; the Prostitution Reform Act is a disastrous piece of social legislation. That is what he said, and I agree with him one hundred percent. He went on to say that it is stupid law, and I agree with him one hundred percent. He then went on to blame the abstention of Mr Choudhary, I believe, for the law being passed. But the actual facts of the matter are that six out of the 27 National MPs voted for the Prostitution Reform Act\u2014six out of 27. Over 10 percent of the total vote cast in this House for that legislation was cast by National MPs\u2014and now they have a guilt complex. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb9e8980912742a2b8526eb6102efa37\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Get on to the subject; talk about now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206e6f89b3ca4479cb1460c8edbe5f171\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the new boys on the block are saying that it is nothing to do with them. Well, I tell those honourable members that their leader voted for the Prostitution Reform Act. Now they sit there and through David Carter they say that it is disastrous legislation. Six out of 27 National MPs voted for the legislation they are now complaining about, but from the word go they were told that the Prostitution Reform Act would expand the industry, legally and illegally. They were told there would be more street prostitution as a result of that Act, and that there would be more children involved. It is a sad testimony for this country that we have child prostitutes, right now as we speak\u2014and there has not been one arrest. We have taken the police out of the equation and now it is open slather. I say to those members that it is no good sitting here. As the honourable member David Carter has said, it was naive of six National members to have voted for the bill\u2014including the honourable Don Brash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have some sympathy for the National Party, I have to be honest. First of all, I do not know how Winston Peters convinced its members to ask all those patsy questions, when in return he has smashed them round the block. It is really quite unfair. I will have to talk to my leader, and tell him he should not take patsy questions and knock them to all and sundry. But when those members show such naivety as they have shown here in saying that this legislation is needed because the principal Act was disastrous, I have to tell them to think again. They should think who the dickens they represent when they come to this Parliament. They represent law-abiding, decent people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c653a50362d542aabb88a234be7ab590\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: About time you retired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cf07edbf9c146ccb27173afd12ca1a9\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is no good Tau Henare\u2019s shouting his head off. He knows two-thirds of nothing. What he knows about this legislation we could write in block capitals on a postage stamp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EMr Choudhary abstained from voting\u2014and it is unfortunate he did\u2014on the principal legislation; otherwise we would not have to be dealing with this bill tonight, I suspect. But we are dealing with it, and I compliment the Manukau City Council on saying that it has a problem and that it wants to address it. I say to members that, sooner rather than later, this sort of legislation\u2014assuming it is passed, and I think it will be\u2014will be taken up by other local authorities elsewhere in this country. That cannot come before time, because people involved in the prostitution industry are destroying their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI know that the Greens look at me in disgust as I speak, but if the Greens could have their way they would have people referred to a brothel-owner from Work and Income. They will oppose this legislation. They see prostitution as a legitimate job for young women to go into. If the Greens had their way, they would have Work and Income refer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227be1373bc5a9450788449fbabb68a4ad\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: No way!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205167db7f02a45dc935bd683018b6d04\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, \u201CNo way!\u201D, the member yells. Yet she says that she wants to legitimise prostitution\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c45f1949ff6348ee8c16b2f3fe7e99a1\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Decriminalise it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5054ccd1f63443b95f7523a937c6402\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014or rather decriminalise it. I can say that the day of the passing of the Prostitution Reform Act was a sad day for New Zealand. In that legislation, as I recall, there is provision for a review in 5 years. I say to the honourable Tim Barnett, and I know he is an honourable man, that he should bring that review forward. He has the clout to do it. He should bring it forward. [Interruption] Oh, United Future wants to bring it forward. There we are; the member has been listening to New Zealand First. We want to bring the review forward now. Let us have the whole thing thrashed out and looked at, because 5 years is too long to wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7779c57c1b74e84aaf928ff364972e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7779c57c1b74e84aaf928ff364972e3\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Right from the outset I want to make it very clear that the Green Party will not be supporting this bill. We think it is a disgrace that the Manukau City Council, which is often socially progressive on other issues, should scapegoat sex workers in this way and try to unilaterally reverse the intention of legislation passed in this House. In 2003 the Prostitution Reform Act was brought into being, with solid support from the Green Party. We believed, and we still do believe, that it was completely wrong to go on living with an archaic law that criminalised generations of sex workers, mainly women, for a victimless, so-called crime in the name of an antique morality shared by only some of the population. The Prostitution Reform Act decriminalised prostitution in this country, and although I recognise that both Parliament and the broader community are deeply divided on this issue, I believe that Manukau City Council needs to realise that the offence of soliciting is no longer on our law books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI do not understand why Mayor Barry Curtis, who has been around the political world for quite some time, and others involved with putting this bill forward think that it is legally viable for a local authority to create its own criminal law for one small part of New Zealand. I guess at one level I would have to say \u201CGood on you!\u201D to Manukau City Council for being a legal rebel and trying to take this step towards establishing the independent republic of Manukau, but on every other count I think that the council is heading completely down the wrong track, and I do not think it will ever be really viable or desirable for Manukau City to go it alone as a sovereign entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EInstead of putting forward this ill-advised bill, Manukau City should be looking at some of the reasons it continues to face perceived problems with street prostitution. Following the introduction of the Prostitution Reform Act, the council, along with councils in places like Christchurch and Hamilton, took the unfortunate step of passing a by-law that effectively prohibited small owner-operated brothels from functioning\u2014again flying in the face of the provisions of the Act itself. That unlawful by-law places extreme restrictions on the location of small brothels in Manukau, thereby undermining one of the key objectives of the Prostitution Reform Act, which was to reduce street prostitution by encouraging sex workers to operate in the safety and discretion of brothels rather than out in public. Manukau City\u2019s restrictions mean that many prostitutes have been unable to establish safe locations from which to work. Its by-law only keeps sex workers visible on the street and away from the increased health and security of brothels. If Manukau City Council thinks it has a problem with street prostitution, it is hoist on its own petard, and I hope that the court action that is coming up will mean that its dubious by-law on brothel location will bite the legal dust before long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, the council\u2019s latest legislative effort before us today also flies in the face of the original Prostitution Reform Act, because it is not just about controlling street prostitution but also aims to prohibit soliciting in all public places except brothels\u2014which would impose severe criminal sanctions on both sex workers and their clients. For example, a sex worker and a potential customer arranging a transaction in a pub would be rendered criminal by the bill. As if that is not bad enough, clause 8 of the bill, if enacted, would also give the police authority to engage in entrapment exercises\u2014for example, by having officers pose as prostitutes and effectively entice members of the public into what would be a criminal offence under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIt is outrageous that the council has even conceived of this giant step backwards, not just in terms of prostitution law reform but also with regard to basic civil rights. Indeed, the bill overall offends against the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990, as I think even the Hon George Hawkins has acknowledged. Not only clause 8 but also clause 12 proposes unreasonably to restrict within Manukau City the rights to freedom of association, freedom of expression, and freedom of assembly that are all affirmed by the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Through clause 12, the police are given the power to require a person suspected of an offence under the bill to provide the name, address, and whereabouts of anyone else connected in any way with an alleged offence. That falls foul of section 23 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which gives people suspected of an offence the right to refrain from making a statement\u2014one of the most fundamental safeguards of individual rights within our country\u2019s criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EBeyond all the legal problems with the bill before us tonight, there is also the question of what is actually going on, on the streets of Manukau City. It is apparent from recent media and police reports that youth gang violence is seen as a much bigger problem at the moment than street prostitution. Will councils suddenly produce a bill to try to deal with that problem in a similar way, rather than deal with the real causes like poverty, poor health, poor education, and social alienation? Manukau has far bigger issues at the moment than the offence caused to some citizens by the presence of visible sex workers on the streets. Assaults on shop owners, serious domestic violence, theft of all sorts, and assault are far more prevalent and serious crimes than those associated with a prostitute seeking and gaining customers. The police and social agencies already have their hands more than full in South Auckland. Recently there were an estimated 900 unallocated police files. I would question whether the hard-pressed force actually wants to spend its time chasing people down for soliciting or prostitution-related offences, when they are already totally unable to keep up with the existing workload.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EEven if this bill somehow did get through, in the end it is unlikely to have any effect on street workers, anyway. Opponents of prostitution reform seem to forget that sex work has been around pretty much as long as humans have been, and that people worked the streets just as visibly, and in similar numbers, before decriminalisation ever happened. I would hate to see Manukau going back to the situation where not only street workers were subject to arrest and prosecution on a daily basis but also health workers, for example, could be prosecuted for giving out condoms or for facilitating other health and safety initiatives with local prostitutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAnd just what is the situation at Hunters Corner, which is the area Manukau City Council usually talks about in relation to the impact of street prostitution? The Prostitutes Collective in Auckland, which deals with sex workers all the time, believes that workers have become the scapegoat for a whole lot of other problems in that part of town, and for problems not of their making\u2014for example, a drop in property values. In fact, the council needs to consider that other market forces may be driving property values down, in relation to a changing demographic of who is living in the area, and to the building of new shopping centres in South Auckland that has led to a decline in strip retail, with the subsequently empty shops being replaced with bars and gambling venues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWho are the street workers at Hunters Corner? The latest figures show they comprise about 70 prostitutes, 60 of whom are M\u0101ori , nine Pasifika, and one P\u0101keh\u0101. That tells us quite a lot. On top of that, 50 percent of them, roughly, are transgender. I wonder how MPs here tonight\u2014at least those from parties like Labour, the M\u0101ori Party, and others who believe in supporting the needs and rights of those most marginalised by reason of race, class, and gender\u2014feel about supporting a law that proposes to harass and recriminalise that particular, very small group of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis Parliament changed the law on prostitution for good reason. Those of us who support reform do not want to see Manukau, or any part of Aotearoa, return to the inequities and dangers of the bad old days just because some councillors are responding to a moral panic. This bill is a gross overreaction to a problem that the Manukau City Council has partly created for itself. I urge the council to embrace the spirit of the Prostitution Reform Act, review its restrictive by-law on brothel location, and involve itself in the review process established under Part 4 of the Prostitution Reform Act. We wrote those review procedures into the legislation at the select committee, because we wanted all interested groups to be able to evaluate the effects of decriminalisation, and to develop positive responses to any problems that might become apparent. If Manukau City Council were serious about wanting to deal with the plight of M\u0101ori and Pasifika street workers, it would not be doing it through oppressive and legally dodgy bills like this; it would be proactively involved with the Prostitution Reform Act review, and it would work alongside relevant community groups, like the Prostitutes Collective, to resolve problems. I hope other MPs and parties here tonight will join the Green Party in consigning this reactionary, ill-judged bill to the dustbin of history, where it so rightly belongs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc097f48b0a24603bd1f1f64bdd71378\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc097f48b0a24603bd1f1f64bdd71378\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora Madam Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. Kia ora Pita Paraone! Hoi an\u014D hei t\u012Bmata k\u014Drero, me k\u014Drero au ki taku whanaunga nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Thank you Madam Speaker, and greetings to us all. And so as a starter, I should begin by addressing Peter Paraone, my relation before me.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI would first like to pick up on a point made by Pita Paraone, who asked what our line on this bill was to be because Tariana Turia voted for the Prostitution Reform Bill. Tariana Turia voted for that bill because she believed there was a need to try to provide some kind of safety and security for those on the street. However, we do not support this bill for a whole lot of other reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI am amazed at both the tenor and intent of the bill, which seems to be an extreme response in a very small area of the country to groups and individuals who are both small in number and very marginalised in our society. It targets the vulnerable and is a metaphorical pile-driver sent to crack a walnut. The bill makes it an offence to solicit for prostitution in a public place. It creates new infringement offences and, most important, it provides the police with powers that no police force anywhere in a civilised society should have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EPrior to the Prostitution Reform Act, street-based sex workers were subject to soliciting laws under the Summary Offences Act, the maximum penalty for which was a fine of $200. The reality was that they were shunted through the courts, and they quickly returned to the streets in order to make money to pay their fines. The convictions for soliciting made no impact whatsoever on the numbers of people working on the street. People just shifted to different doorways and waited for the police to calm down before moving back to their previous sites. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EEnforcement has dropped significantly over the last 10 years, but when the police did one final raid while the Prostitution Reform Bill was before this House, most of those arrested were M\u0101ori and transgender sex workers. Street-based sex workers throughout New Zealand are mainly M\u0101ori and working-class, mothers, and transgender, and we want to ensure that they are not subjected to the punitive measures outlined in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe know that during the course of their work, Prostitutes Collective workers encountered, on average, 25 of these sex workers throughout South Auckland on mainly Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. The Prostitutes Collective tells us that the actual numbers of street-based sex workers overall are very, very small, not only in Manukau but throughout the country. To bring in a bill to try to crush just those in Manukau simply ain\u2019t going to do the business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EMost street-based sex workers are over the age of 25, although a study made in Christchurch suggests that most of them started at a relatively young age. Many of those people have worked the streets for a number of years, and are very stable and unlikely to create problems in respect of public nuisance, etc. Reintroducing penalties in relation to street-based sex workers will not make any difference whatsoever, and the statistics prove this in respect of the numbers of people engaged in sex work. It will, though, result in those sex workers being fined large amounts of money\u2014money that they will simply be unable to pay. That, of course, will result in their being further punished and criminalised for unpaid fines, which will only result in them getting community service or ending up in jail. Punitive actions are not the solution. They never have been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFurthermore, the M\u0101ori Party is concerned that the definition of soliciting is very wide\u2014that it will enable the police to act on a \u201Cperception from afar\u201D basis that a person is actually soliciting, and those decisions will be subjective. Historically, sex workers have been inclined to plead guilty when confronted with charges, even when they are just passing through known street sites, and the M\u0101ori Party is worried that anyone who even looks the part, or who fits the profile, is likely to be implicated under the terms of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFurthermore, if the bill is passed because condoms and other safer-sex gear can be listed as evidence of soliciting, sex workers will stop carrying them. That is really dumb because the police actually tell sex workers that they are happy they are carrying them, because it means safe sex is going on between them and their clients. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EStreet-based sex workers will be less likely to report crimes against themselves for fear of prosecution under this legislation, so this bill will only drive street workers into situations where they lose contact with those who can help them, such as outreach workers. We do not deny that there are issues with noise, litter, arguments, and abuse, but laws already exist to control that kind of behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAs for the police issue, we are also very concerned that, under clause 8, police are exempt from prosecution where the officer is acting under written instructions from a senior officer. That means, in simple terms, that if a cop has a note from a sergeant he or she can break the law to make an arrest. This is a dangerous precedent. While everybody may have all these other ideas about prostitution, sex work, etc., the clauses giving police wider powers will lead to sanctioning the commissioning of crimes to solve a crime. That is a very, very dangerous precedent, and that is another reason why this bill should not go through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe powers of the police under this bill are like those the United States is using to apprehend and jail suspects in Afghanistan and Iraq\u2014on the basis that they have reasonable grounds to do so. Is Manukau City to become the new Guantanamo Bay? When the police cells in Manukau City fill, and we have all heard about the renditioning that goes on\u2014the United States flies suspects all around the world to put them into its own private jails\u2014will New Zealand\u2019s version of renditioning mean that those picked up in Manukau City will be shunted off to other towns and cities in Aotearoa, as the United States does with suspects all over Europe? Will Manukau City lead the moral local body charge against a group in our society that is both vulnerable and small in number? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe have had advice from the streets that many positives have come from the Prostitution Reform Act, but we fail to see anything positive at all coming out of this bill. In conclusion, I just note how tolerant this House has been of the high level of soliciting and related nuisance-type behaviour carried out by those seeking support for this bill. The M\u0101ori Party opposes this bill. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00226ad52d6ab3b94c859a4c3d76406d5b4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ad52d6ab3b94c859a4c3d76406d5b4e\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future will be voting in favour of this bill, at least for its first reading. I want to begin by extending my congratulations to Sir Barry Curtis and the members of the Manukau City Council for actually sitting down and asking some serious questions about the problem of soliciting for prostitution that is occurring on a wide scale within that city, involving many people under 18 years of age. The council has, I think, at least partly, come up with the right solution to that problem\u2014namely, that the best way to eliminate soliciting on the streets of Manukau City, or of any other city, is to fine the client of the prostitute. That is one of the things this bill provides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EPeople\u2019s memories are very, very short when it comes to the Prostitution Reform Act, which United Future opposed and, in the course of that legislation through the House, predicted it would not work and would result in exploitation on our streets with the kind of unseemly activity that prostitution involves. During the election campaign, for example, in one of the leaders\u2019 debates between Helen Clark and Don Brash, Don Brash was asked the direct question: \u201CWhy did you vote for the Prostitution Reform Act?\u201D. His response was that when he learnt that under the old law of New Zealand a prostitute who solicited on the streets got fined but the client of the prostitute escaped scot-free, he decided that that was fundamentally unjust, sexist, and discriminatory and that he would therefore vote for the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHe conveniently, or otherwise, forgot that Dianne Yates of the Labour Party had introduced an amendment during the course of that legislation proposing to do what Sweden has done. In Sweden, it was the Swedish women\u201445 percent of the Swedish Parliament\u2014who came up with the idea, and said: \u201CWhy don\u2019t we just reverse that? Why don\u2019t we let the prostitute, who is normally a woman, do her bit. Furthermore, why don\u2019t we get some financial assistance to her so that she can get out of this industry and into something more wholesome and safe. And why don\u2019t we actually put a fine on the client, who is normally a male?\u201D Dianne Yates proposed that amendment here. I would have thought that that was the true feminist position, one that would be truly in the interests of the women of this country. But, no, apart from United Future members and literally two or three others, Dianne Yates\u2019 amendment was voted down\u2014and most of the women in this Parliament joined in voting it down. People have very short memories, because that actually was the answer to the dilemma that Don Brash had proposed in his own mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESo I think that we should pass the first reading of this bill tonight and let it go off to the select committee, and I suggest when it gets there that the committee once again looks at what has happened in Sweden, followed by Denmark, followed by Norway, and now followed by France. All of those countries have adopted the Swedish model. As a result they have no street soliciting. Those societies\u2014again, particularly led by the women\u2014have made up their minds to say: \u201CCan\u2019t we have a vision for a nation that has no prostitutes on the streets? How do we get rid of them? We actually criminalise the client.\u201D I think, with respect, that Hone Harawira completely missed this point in his speech. The solution that Sir Barry Curtis and his councillors have come up with is partly right. We want to actually see the end of soliciting. Why do we not fine the client? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to make a couple of other comments. Somebody said that the Prostitution Reform Act was passed by this Parliament to improve the safety of sex workers. Yeah, right! By definition prostitution is unsafe. No bill passed by this Parliament can sanitise or remove that reality. To prove the point, since that Act was passed two young prostitutes are dead. I think it is time we faced up to this problem honestly, and said: \u201CLet\u2019s actually bring it to an end; this is not something that our country needs. We can do without it, and our society can do without it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI mention one other point. In the confidence and supply agreement between the Labour-led Government and United Future, provision has been made for a review to be undertaken of the Prostitution Reform Act to address three issues that are of great concern in Manukau, in Christchurch, and in a number of other places throughout the country. The first issue in that Act is street soliciting. The second issue is the question of under-age sex. From memory, two or three brothel owners have been prosecuted in our courts for employing prostitutes who are under 18 years of age. But do members know that since that Act was passed not one single prosecution has been taken to our courts of the hundreds of people to whom who those under-age prostitutes provided their services? All of those hundreds of people broke the law of this land\u2014every single one of them. Not one of them has been prosecuted. No questions have been asked. We are continuing down the same old blind, bigoted way of always blaming the prostitute and always letting the client off. We need to stop that. We need to get real and say that we do not want people selling sex on our streets. Let us fix that by saying: \u201CIf you want to go on the streets and buy sex, then you\u2019re going to face a fine.\u201D Under the bill, by the way, it can be as much as 10 grand\u2014and boy, I tell members that this bill will actually fix soliciting in Manukau City! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe bill may not be perfect\u2014bills on their first reading seldom are\u2014but let it at least go through to a select committee so we can actually deal with the issues with, I hope, some sanity, balance, and fairness and try to come up with something that will improve the situation in Manukau City for the people of Manukau City. It is their bill, and I tell Sue Bradford that there is nothing unilateral about this bill. Manukau City is asking Parliament to pass a law. It is for us to decide whether we want to come to the assistance of the people of Manukau, or simply, as it were, turn, cross the street, and go past on the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u00221f97f8cc023542abb042b93da922bcc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f97f8cc023542abb042b93da922bcc5\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to take a brief call on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da73f08167a84618b3a060e9850455ea\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has sought leave of the House to have a call. Is there any objection? There is not. Is this a 5-minute call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e55c0618f5804c13bbfdd5caf7881c5a\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but it will not be as long as that. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker, and I thank my colleagues for their generosity. I want to make a few brief comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EI have grave concerns about the content of the bill. I respect the intent and the sincerity, genuine I believe, of Sir Barry Curtis and the people of Manukau City, whom he represents as mayor, in seeking to have this matter dealt with. However, I believe that some of what is in the bill is completely erroneous. The hysteria that has gone on this evening in some of the speeches regarding the Prostitution Reform Act is just that\u2014hysteria. Some of those issues would not have come to light if we had not gone down that track. I believe we are able to chuck out or address many, if not all, of the issues in this bill, because of what is happening already\u2014for example, the review that is already occurring of the Prostitution Reform Act as a result of it, and other such matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EI should declare that I am a member of the Local Government and Environment Committee. I almost welcome the opportunity to rubbish a lot of what is in the bill. However, I do maintain that I uphold the right of Manukau City and of Sir Barry in generously bringing the bill forward and using a parliamentary process\u2014almost mischievously in a sense, but, nevertheless, it is a right and correct use of the process. So I look forward to the bill coming before the select committee. I will give the bill extraordinarily close scrutiny and very deep questioning, for I, as most members of this Parliament know, have a very close association with the sex industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EI do believe that street soliciting is the more dangerous of the prostitution activities that occur, and I would like nothing more than to see people not necessarily need to be in the situation of street work. That is why I wonder where that council has been. This has not been a problem of recent occurrence but one of some history. So where are the initiatives to get those people into more desirable work and the opportunities for it, perhaps, so as to get them out of the horrible rut they can sometimes be in? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EI ask members not to remain ignorant to the goodness of what the Prostitution Reform Act provided for this country. Yes, the matters are distasteful, but we should face them, as we are, responsibly. I do believe that is what the Act provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EThis bill is a local bill. My colleague George Hawkins has quite rightly, as a local member, brought it forward on behalf of the Manukau City Council. That is why I am happy to support the referral of the bill to the select committee. I certainly cannot promise that I will support it beyond there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0669e90ce8d4ad6a2433465526d022c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0669e90ce8d4ad6a2433465526d022c\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I thank all members here tonight for what has been a very interesting debate. There are strongly held views on this matter, just as there were a few years ago when the original legislation came before the House. I must say, and I concede straight away, that David Carter seemed to blame me for the bill, although he is far more expert on the matter of prostitution than I am. However\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277b3697b4ff8481399481a4efb650d1b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Spell it out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f4e25ddb634ef592f6007ace572e0c\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That member may also be more expert than me; I do not know about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI have not heard anyone tonight invite these street workers into his or her town. I have not heard people say that that is a great idea and they should have them in their towns. Manukau is a young city. It has many problems, and it tries to deal with them. It tries to deal with ill health and with the problems associated with growing up in such a young city. It does some tremendous work for its citizens. The city\u2019s motivation is good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI ask everyone to vote for the bill to go to the Local Government and Environment Committee, so that these things can be questioned. I know that some people may vote for the referral of the bill to the committee and that their support may end there. However, many Government members are supporting its referral to the select committee to enable wider public debate to inform the work of the Prostitution Law Review Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EIt does not matter that the Manukau City Council\u2019s motivation may, in the eyes of some people, be wrong. What is important is that the council has its day before the select committee. I dare say there will be other councils appearing at the committee. If Manukau City Council has a fault it is that it cares too much; it is a city council that is concerned about all its citizens. Earlier tonight we sent a bill that deals with graffiti to a select committee. What we are really hearing tonight is that a council is turning to its Parliament and saying that it wants to be given some help. I do not think there is anything wrong in doing that. In fact, I am quite keen to see the bill go to the select committee. I may not be a person who thinks this bill is perhaps the best solution to the problem, but it is Manukau City\u2019s solution and the council wants it to be tested by this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThis issue may be offensive to many people. It may be undesirable that condoms are being left in school grounds. I think that is deplorable; I think it is dangerous for young kids. I think about the people who have to clean away condoms from their shopfronts before opening for business. That is not desirable. No one likes that. Manukau is responding to the call of its population. I hope that people will vote for the bill to go to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229dc7291c4db14dc18aa6c85fb3341a76\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Manukau City Council (Control of Street Prostitution) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000652\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa875fec60c243eea0626fba9cb18bdf\u0022\u003EMarriage (Gender Clarification) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022875c2302f3684827b983535edc024063\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002244f8a9ea846f448395a7b858cd5a4bee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244f8a9ea846f448395a7b858cd5a4bee\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Marriage (Gender Clarification) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time, I will move that the bill be referred to the Social Services Committee for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI hope every member of Parliament will support this bill on its first reading. I say that because the bill simply clarifies and codifies in New Zealand law marriage as it has always been traditionally understood, not only in New Zealand but throughout the world, not only in our culture but in every culture, not only in the Christian religion but in every religion. In 2005 some people express surprise that the definition of marriage proposed in the bill\u2014namely, that \u201CFor the avoidance of doubt, marriage may only occur between one man and one woman.\u201D\u2014is not already in the Marriage Act 1955. However, for someone of my generation, that really is no surprise at all. On the contrary, I am quite certain that in 1955 it would never have occurred to any member of the then New Zealand Parliament that it was necessary to define the word \u201Cmarriage.\u201D Those members were simply putting into legislative form what people had understood for millennia\u2014namely, that marriage is between one man and one woman. That reality would have been patently obvious to everyone, as our society had never contemplated any other arrangement or interpretation. That, of course, is because marriage is the oldest institution known to the human race. It goes back to the beginning, because, at the beginning, there was one man and one woman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHowever, for the record, let us look at the dictionary definition of the word \u201Cmarriage\u201D. That definition reads: \u201Cstate or relationship of being husband and wife. \u2026 the legal union or contract made by a man and woman to live as husband and wife.\u201D All this bill does is to codify that definition in New Zealand law. As I have already said, it was simply unnecessary to do so in 1955, but it is now necessary for a number of reasons. The first reason is the well-known 1996 court case Quilter v Attorney-General. The applicants in that case went to the High Court, by way of a test case, seeking a decision as to whether same-sex couples could lawfully obtain a marriage licence. The Court of Appeal eventually, in 1998, ruled that marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHowever, as the Ministry of Justice has made clear in its advice to the Attorney-General, although the Court of Appeal ruling upholds the common law understanding of marriage as between a man and a woman, this could be overturned because of overseas decisions. That is the critical issue that Parliament needs to determine today. The traditional, common law position could be overturned, because that has happened in Canada, in the state of Massachusetts in the USA, and now in South Africa, where marriage has been reinterpreted by the courts to include two people of the same gender\u2014in other words, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. Canada, the state of Massachusetts, and South Africa all have common law traditions; accordingly, if a couple of the same sex were to approach the New Zealand courts again for the right to marry, then, of course, decisions in those jurisdictions could be cited as creating a precedent. I am asking Parliament tonight to pre-empt that possibility, to put the matter beyond doubt\u2014members should note the words of the bill: \u201CFor the avoidance of doubt,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EInterestingly, the Court of Appeal, in delivering the court\u2019s decision, expressed the view that the question of whether the law should be changed to authorise marriage between gays and between lesbians should be decided by Parliament. So this bill is actually, if you like, a reaction to the Court of Appeal\u2019s comment in that regard, exactly in the way that, in different circumstances, Parliament reacted when the same Court of Appeal ruled that M\u0101ori might have access to private ownership of the foreshore and seabed. This bill actually tries to reverse that progress by ensuring that Parliament speaks first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThat is actually the principal issue that is involved in my bill. In addition, however, it specifies that same-sex marriages registered in foreign countries such as Canada and, now, South Africa are not recognised as marriages in New Zealand. Such a provision, of course, is necessary now only because, as I mentioned, the word \u201Cmarriage\u201D in those countries has been extended to include same-sex couples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAlso, the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act should be amended to ensure that measures intended to promote or advance marriage\u2014for example, pre-marriage counselling\u2014are not considered discriminatory. Obviously, only those who intended to marry would wish to go to a pre-marriage course. It would be quite ridiculous to say that such measures somehow discriminated against people who did not wish to marry. Such logic is deeply flawed. I think, in fact, it is patently obvious that such courses should be open just to married couples; that requires little further argument from me. It would be ridiculous, for example, to argue that a marriage enrichment course is discriminatory because it excludes single people or de facto couples. It would be a bit like saying that Victoria University, by having an entrance standard, thereby discriminated against people who did not meet the entrance standard. In order to be married under our present law, one has to find a partner whom one wishes to marry, has to decide to marry that person, has to be accepted, etc. When we think about it, it is actually a conditional situation that is very much akin to an entrance qualification to university.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI will mention in conclusion another couple of matters. A DigiPoll on this issue was conducted earlier this year, and it indicated that 57 percent of New Zealanders believe that our law should state clearly that marriage can only be between a man and a woman. I speak here tonight for those 57 percent of people. Secondly, I draw to the attention of the House the fact that the Australian Parliament passed last year, with the support of all the parties in the Australian Parliament, legislation that covers the same ground as this bill. Accordingly, this bill\u2019s passage tonight would serve to harmonise the law concerning marriage in both Australia and New Zealand\u2014something we like to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI very much hope that this first reading of my bill will, following the Australian example, attract the support of all parties. No fewer than 19 states in the United States of America have also passed similar legislation to safeguard the institution of marriage. Some may argue\u2014and I am sure they will in this debate, from what I have so far heard informally from other parties\u2014that the chances of our courts overturning the Quilter decision are remote. Well, maybe, but the question for Parliament is whether we should take that risk. Should we take a risk like that with the most basic, the oldest, and the most important institution in our society? It is an institution that is, indeed, the cornerstone and foundation of our society, and the fundamental rock upon which the strongest families in our society are built now, and have been built for many, many generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESome may argue\u2014I have heard already from the Minister of Justice in question time yesterday\u2014that it is a waste of Parliament\u2019s time to debate this matter. I, in contrast, say that there is nothing more vital to our society and its future than for Parliament to take the time to send a clear signal to the people of this country that the Parliament of New Zealand confirms and affirms the traditional meaning of the word \u201Cmarriage\u201D\u2014namely, that it is between a man and a woman. But for those who want to make this an argument about parliamentary time, I would not object to a motion that asked that the House extend its time tonight so that we could pass the bill through its first, second, and third readings this evening. I would be absolutely happy about that. If that would save Parliament\u2019s time, then if it were moved I certainly would not object. That would deal with that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI will note with interest tonight, as will the people of New Zealand, the way that parties vote on this legislation. We have just had an election. It is well known\u2014it has actually been referred to indirectly by the Prime Minister herself\u2014that it was the social engineering agenda of the last Government that produced the election results we saw just a little while ago. Labour had its worst result in 11 provincial seats in that party\u2019s history. I think some people from the National Party will vote tonight with the Labour Party on this issue, and if they do that, they will deeply disappoint the hundreds of thousands of people who cast their votes for National at the last election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6474eb44636449fa10ef89ad21b4944\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6474eb44636449fa10ef89ad21b4944\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Every single New Zealander who was polled in the DigiPoll referred to by Mr Copeland will be pleased to know that the present law in New Zealand as it stands is that marriage is between a man and a woman. I repeat: the present law states that marriage is between a man and woman. This bill adds nothing to the law\u2014the law is already settled on this matter. If people do not believe me, then I ask them to read Quilter v Attorney-General 1998, and I ask them to read various papers put out by the Ministry of Justice, by Crown Law, by Chapman Tripp, and by members of the legal fraternity like my learned colleague and friend here, Chris Finlayson. The law is very clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ELet us see the Marriage (Gender Clarification) Amendment Bill for what it is. It is a cheap political stunt put up by a party that wants to pretend it has a monopoly on having an interest in long-term relationships, and that it has a monopoly on concern for New Zealand families. I look around the House tonight. Most members here, if not all of them, believe that long-term relationships are the glue that keeps this community together. But this bill would add nothing to the present legal position\u2014nothing at all. We hear rhetoric in this House about members not taking up Parliament\u2019s time, and about our not wanting to create bills that add nothing to the law and do not make a difference, but this bill is one of those that would do nothing but restate the status quo. The purpose of this bill is so that United Future can stand up and say that it has a monopoly on believing that marriage is important and that long-term relationships are important\u2014but United Future simply does not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis bill is a cheap political stunt, and will be used as a platform for every banjo-playing, redneck homophobe who wants to stand up and make comments about the way other people lead their lives. I have referred to the impression that United Future wants to create, but this bill will add nothing to the body of law we now have. United Future wants to create the impression that we have hordes of gay and lesbian couples around the world focusing on New Zealand as their destination of choice. Again, the law is quite clear on that point. If New Zealand gay couples travel and marry somewhere else, their relationship will still be dealt with under the civil union legislation and regulations. If foreign people in some other kind of relationship want to come to New Zealand, the law is pretty clear about their status, as well. So if we look at this bill, we see that it will do absolutely nothing to change the present situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe often stand in the House and say we want to create bills that will make a difference and will stand for something, so why are we standing here debating something that is already extremely clear in the law? My great-grandmother used to have a pub years ago called The Live and Let Live, and I think that that is a very good saying. United Future members should take a look at themselves, introduce some common sense to their own views, and see that the legal situation, as it is, is quite clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EMarriage in this country is between a man and a woman, and many in this House believe in that and support that. Many people who voted for the Civil Union Bill supported that, which is why we had that bill in this country. Once again, we see that party stand up and pretend it is the only party in this Parliament that is concerned about long-term relationships. We all know that long-term relationships remain the glue that keeps our community together, but when I look at this legislation I am concerned about the sort of debate it will unleash on our communities. It will be used by many as a platform to say all sorts of things that will offend, and to make statements about other people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIn my view, this bill does nothing more than state a situation we already have. Those DigiPoll respondents will be pleased to know that the law is extremely clear. We have not had a single lawyer stand in this House and say that the law is not clear. Every law we pass in this Parliament is potentially open to challenge, but I tell members that if we put this law in place it will be challenged by those within the community, and, in particular, it will be challenged under the Human Rights Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee51c79328554327abfeeec343827828\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee51c79328554327abfeeec343827828\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is seldom I disagree with Katherine Rich but on issues like these, where effectively we are confronting a conscience vote, I simply cannot agree. The proposition being advanced to members of this House is an assumption that the law is unchanging. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. The law is constantly changing, sometimes incrementally and sometimes in dramatic advances. It is changing both as a result of decisions made by judges, and also of course by decisions made in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is right to say that judge-made law is settled by the Quilter decision, but in principle there is nothing to say that the Supreme Court, now our highest court, could not review that decision in an appropriate factual matrix. It is also absolutely clear that this Parliament could make substantial change, as Parliaments around the world have done\u2014in some cases, in short order. So the position that I adopt in speaking to members of the House tonight is that this bill should be supported. I do not for a moment buy into an argument that just because it reflects codification of the common law, then somehow it is a waste of time to have it referred to a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI plan to vote in favour of this bill for a number of reasons, and I encourage colleagues in the House who are listening to these arguments to reflect on whether their arguments are right, if it is their plan to vote against this legislation. I would say these things. First of all, I say that passing this bill will provide a significant hurdle to the introduction of same-sex marriage in this country. It will be more difficult for Parliament to introduce same-sex marriage if it first has to repeal the Marriage Act\u2014or sections of it\u2014and then pass further legislation. Second, I say that without this bill the Civil Union Act paves the way for same-sex marriage. That is because it would be much easier for a Parliament to introduce same-sex marriage by passing a minor amendment to the existing Civil Union Act and leaving the Marriage Act untouched. The Civil Union Act currently provides that a civil union couple can convert their civil union to a marriage, as long as they are able to marry anyway. I think we have also seen\u2014and this is the third point\u2014how easy it is, in the context of what has been going on in a number of countries, to change the law to sanction same-sex marriage, in short order. The latest illustration of that would be in South Africa, where there is not a definition of marriage in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is not the role of Parliament to dictate moral habit or moral custom, but as a legislator I believe it is important that we send signals to the community as to what is or what is not acceptable behaviour. I think it is appropriate that this Parliament does send a message to New Zealand families that marriage is important. We have suffered 6 years in this Parliament of quite dramatic social engineering. It is appropriate to send signals that reverse that trend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI am not sure how relevant it is that we follow patterns of conduct advanced by those across the Tasman, but the reality is that this issue has been looked at very determinedly in the context of the Australian Federal Parliament and that this bill is virtually identical to legislation that was passed by the Australian Liberal, National, and Labor parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EFinally, I conclude by noting what the Attorney General of Australia, Philip Ruddock, said during the second reading of the Australian bill: \u201CThe bill is necessary because there is a significant community concern about the possible erosion of the institution of marriage. The Government has consistently reiterated the fundamental importance of the place of marriage in our society. It is a central and fundamental institution. It is vital to the stability of our society, and provides the best environment for the raising of children.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1bc37b7e2f84cce85b55e1007ca8c1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1bc37b7e2f84cce85b55e1007ca8c1e\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E This bill purports, first, to clarify that the parties to a marriage must be one man and one woman, and as has been said by at least one of the contributors to the debate tonight, the bill is completely unnecessary as it merely seeks to confirm the law as it already stands. To vote in favour of the bill would constitute a poor process and be a waste of Parliament\u2019s time. Second, the bill also seeks to prevent overseas civil unions or gay marriages from being recognised as marriages in New Zealand. Again, that is completely unnecessary as our existing legislation is clear that such relationships cannot be recognised as marriages in New Zealand. The third aim of the bill is to ensure that active promotion of marriage is not discriminatory. That part of the bill is inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which is another reason to vote the bill down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI turn first to clauses 4 and 6. I am not aware of any confusion over the existing law in relation to what constitutes a marriage. The Court of Appeal, in the case of Quilter v Attorney-General, has very clearly ruled that the Marriage Act 1955 applies to marriage between a man and a woman only. It is interesting that the Opposition member says that the Supreme Court may overturn that. I think he will find that the make-up of the Court of Appeal and of the present Supreme Court are somewhat similar. Under the Marriage Act as it stands, people of the same gender are unable to obtain a marriage licence, and any such purported marriage would not be recognised, or would be declared void. There is no confusion about the law. In light of that, clauses 4 and 6 are unnecessary, and consideration of them would not be a productive use of this House\u2019s time or of that of a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EEqually unnecessary is clause 5 of the bill, which seeks to prevent overseas civil unions or gay marriages from being recognised in New Zealand as marriages. Again, our existing law is very clear. No overseas marriage or civil union between two people of the same gender can be recognised in New Zealand as a marriage. The Civil Union Act 2004 passed by this House makes provision for regulations to be made to prescribe the types of overseas relationships that are recognised in New Zealand as civil unions but not as marriages. Consideration of clause 5 would again be a waste of Parliament\u2019s time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EClause 7 proposes that measures taken in good faith for the purpose of assisting or advancing marriage do not constitute discrimination. In his letter to MPs, Mr Gordon Copeland states that his intention is simply to allow faith communities and others to run marriage preparation and marriage enrichment courses. Unfortunately, the amendment he proposes has far wider consequences than that. I note that the Attorney-General\u2019s report on clause 7 concludes that it unjustifiably limits the rights affirmed in section 19 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act: the right to freedom from discrimination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EClause 7 would actually allow private individuals to impose arbitrary and exclusionary policies in the field of employment and in the area of goods and services. Such provision would discriminate not just against people in civil unions and de facto relationships but also against single people and people who are widowed or divorced. Such discrimination would flow down to affect the children of such relationships. It is unacceptable that children could be treated differently because of the nature of their parents\u2019 relationships. The previous Parliament passed legislation that removed unjustifiable discrimination on the basis of relationship status. I believe that it would reflect badly on us if we were to turn back the clock by voting in favour of this bill. To do so would run contrary to a range of international and domestic human rights obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMy opposition to the bill is not a criticism of marriage. I am married myself. Marriage has an important place in our society. However, our laws need to be appropriately framed to recognise all the relationships that provide a supportive environment for the raising of children and the building blocks of strong families. Although marriage may be my preferred form of relationship, marriage does not have a monopoly on providing that. The strength of the relationship between the parents and the strength of their relationship with their children are absolutely fundamental. There is ample research to show that it is the way individuals in relationships and families interact, not the status of the relationship, that leads to successful outcomes for those families and for society at large. A man who beats his wife inflicts as much damage on her and their children as a man who beats his de facto partner. A loving, committed relationship between adults is what matters to children. As in all matters, it is the substance, not the form, that counts. The Government has committed to supporting families regardless of the legal status of the parents in the family, and they are entitled to the widest possible protection and assistance from any Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002232fdb4a1f9e54cefb230feb42e6f5850\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232fdb4a1f9e54cefb230feb42e6f5850\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E If I had any doubts about supporting this bill, the honourable member who has just resumed her seat certainly has squashed them all. I think it is absolute arrogance to stand in this House and say that clause 5, or clause 6, or whatever, is a waste of Parliament\u2019s time. We are here, elected by the people of New Zealand, to listen from time to time to the people of New Zealand, and if they want this sort of legislation debated, then it is our task to address it. I can tell members that from the feedback I have had personally, there are many, many New Zealanders who want this bill at least sent to a select committee, and I would say that the vast majority of them want it passed. We need, in my view, to strengthen marriage in this country and to strengthen it by ensuring that it is confined to being a union between a man and a woman, a husband and wife. If the family unit is the backbone of this country, marriage is the backbone of the family unit. It has served this country well, and it will serve this country well for a lot longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI want to make it quite clear that New Zealand First has made this issue a conscience vote, and we are not all of the same mind. Some of my colleagues would agree that the current legislation is strong enough and adequate enough, but that is not to say that we all agree with that view. The majority of New Zealand First MPs want this bill referred to a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI heard Katherine Rich describe a supporter of this bill as\u2014and I thought it was quite funny\u2014a redneck, banjo-playing homophobic, or something along those lines. I thought that was good. I do not play the banjo but I do not know whether I might qualify on the other score. When Katherine Rich sat down she said she wanted to hear a lawyer\u2019s opinion, and, of course, the No. 1 redneck, banjo-playing homophobic in the National Party, lawyer Mr Richard Worth, stood up and actually said exactly the opposite of what Katherine Rich said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288bd41735ebf49639d8d17fe41711078\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have been misrepresented by the use of those epithets. Banjo playing has never been a strength of mine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022500c2987075c48d9b7c1f1179911d24f\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Worth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022473e2ff195f54db2a4ce9ba648b68a84\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I actually thought that that would be the case, because I know that the member is a sailor, exactly the same as myself\u2014well, not exactly the same; in my day at sea I was a real sailor; he just played at the game. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe majority of New Zealanders, I suggest, want to see this legislation at least get to the select committee stage. That is the view that the majority of New Zealand First MPs share. I can tell members that a number of Christian people, church people, believe absolutely that this bill is essential to the family unit in the long-term future. I know that the Brethren financed\u2014somewhat unwittingly, if we believe the National Party\u2014many pamphlets to support National members and get them here. They want, to a man and a woman, this bill to go before a select committee. They financed pamphlets in support of the National Party getting here. Many of those members would not be here but for the actions of the Brethren. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThey would not be here but for what the Brethren did, and they should in fact listen to them. They wanted those members here. Those members were prepared to listen to them when they came out with pamphlets. If the National Party MPs vote against this bill going to the select committee, they are letting down some of their core supporters. [Interruption] It does not take much to rile these guys, does it? Why can they not behave like that when Winston Peters is here, and show a bit of strength? Why are they all like little mice when Winston Peters is here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E In my view, and in the view of many New Zealanders, it is possible to see the state of marriage between a man and a woman challenged. The Civil Union Act is an Act for civil unionists, but it is possible that in the not too distant future\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d815cb1d54c4980aa9e906567c9b8e7\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you were a \u201Csimple sailor\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4bf6e5746c4749a75cdbfb1e33788e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am just a \u201Csimple sailor\u201D and I see things in black and white. It is possible that two people of the same gender, married in some foreign place, may come here and challenge our system. I would not like them to succeed. I am totally supportive of this bill going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb34bc00dd924933866a1b809fd607e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb34bc00dd924933866a1b809fd607e2\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is opposed to this bill, and we will vote against it as a party. Our party policy requires us to support the extension of all legal partnership arrangements and rights to same-sex couples as are afforded heterosexual couples. That includes not just eligibility in relation to parenting, for example, but also to marriage. We are very proud to stand here as a party and say that we support the elimination of discrimination in this country, and we will not support legislation to impose even more discrimination than we already have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis legislation is entirely unnecessary, as my colleagues have expressed so far, and I certainly hope that at some point a man will stand up and defend same-sex couples in some form, because at this point only women have made any sense whatsoever in this House. Most important, this legislation is utterly discriminatory, whether or not we consider it unnecessary, and even the Attorney-General has said that the bill is inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and is an unjustified breach of the freedom from discrimination afforded to all New Zealand citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ESadly, but probably not surprisingly, I received today a piece of paper entitled: \u201CUrgent Appeal to all MPs\u201D, distributed by members of the Brethren. In fact, it is a flyer that sets out a whole lot of religious reasons why we should be legislating for discrimination in this country. I know that many Christians in New Zealand would be appalled to see this information being distributed to MPs. It is worthwhile noting that four members of the Brethren who are listed on this pamphlet\u2014Andrew Simmons, Phil Win, Tim Lough, and Doug Watt\u2014were members of the \u201Csecret seven\u201D, who produced a pamphlet attacking the Green Party before the election. They were four members of the \u201Csecret seven\u201D, who sent out a pamphlet containing lies and half-truths about Green Party policy. They distributed it around the country and hid their culpability and responsibility until they were finally exposed to the country by the Green Party. How disgraceful that United Future is promoting legislation to discriminate against New Zealanders on the back of this kind of support! It is very, very shameful indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis bill is obviously a clear example of an expression of malice and prejudice against gay, lesbian, transgender, and transsexual people. Without a doubt, it is malice and prejudice. The bill extends beyond just asking that there be no valid legal recognition of marriage. By using the word \u201Crecognition\u201D in the legislation it undermines all forms of recognition of the validity of same-sex relationships in the nature of marriage in all sorts of areas other than legal marriage. For example, in respect of income support and in respect of wills it would mean that same-sex couples would not be entitled to the same recognition that other couples have. That means, for example, that if someone\u2019s will described his or her partner using the terms of marriage, say \u201Chusband\u201D or \u201Cwife\u201D, that person would not be able to obtain the benefits of that will because this bill would stop that person from doing so. So this bill goes way beyond just legal recognition of marriage in lawful terms, but right into other areas where this country, by its legislation and policy, has indicated it will not support that discrimination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe bill legally broadens the discrimination against same-sex couples. The Greens will have no part of a bill that legislates for discrimination and hate in this country against a vulnerable and valuable sector of our community that deserves this Parliament\u2019s protection, not its prejudice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002236f6218578524f4f816e3bcdd9872bfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236f6218578524f4f816e3bcdd9872bfb\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E My name is Hone Harawira and I am married to Hilda Halkyard-Harawira. Although I did not know it at the time, I now know that our marriage was conducted under the Marriage Act of 1955, which was reinforced by the Quilter v Attorney-General Court of Appeal decision that confirmed that the Act and status of marriage is between a man and a woman. So that is my own personal situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETo clarify us as a party, the M\u0101ori Party parliamentary caucus is 100 percent married under the terms of the Marriage Act of 1955. In fact, one of our members so much believes in marriage that he has done it more than once. So I am hardly about to question the Act and the status of marriage within our own caucus. We are a man married to a woman, a man married to a woman, a man married to a woman, and a woman married to a man. That is our position as party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFrom a M\u0101ori point of view I am obviously here because my t\u016Bpuna pretty much have the same points of view. Ever since coming here from Hawaiki those relationships, thankfully, have continued right down to where we are today. The Civil Union Bill, which caused a lot of angst when it was going through the House, and out there in the boonies, is what provides the framework and the mechanism for other relationships to be confirmed and given formal value. As Katherine Rich said, overseas people may make the decisions that are appropriate for them, as we have with the Marriage Act and the Civil Union Act. They are structures that validate the relationships that people wish to enjoy here, but under the terms of the Marriage Act 1955 marriage is to be consummated only between a man and a woman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI am also a father. I am the father of seven children, and the grandfather, I am embarrassed to say, of only two. I do not ask my children what their sexual orientation is going to be, but whatever it is going to be it is not going to change in any way, shape, or form the love I have for them or for my grandchildren. The party does not think that bringing in another bill will make any difference whatsoever to the status I already have or to the status my children may wish to enjoy should they choose another lifestyle. That is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe discussed this issue in caucus and we were not all of the same point of view. I said to my caucus that as a father I want my sons and my daughters to grow up to realise what a marriage is, which is the relationship that I have with their mother. I want my grandchildren to grow up and have that same understanding. We have discussed it at depth. I am happy to say that I was considering tonight split-voting with my party on exactly what the position would be with us, and I cleared it with my co-leader, but I am more than happy to say that after discussing it with him and others, I stand in support of the M\u0101ori Party position in opposition to this bill. We are who we are. We have an Act that confirms that validity of our relationships, and we have a Civil Union Act that recognises those others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7bd32fc3eb342ad87bfbef412696343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7bd32fc3eb342ad87bfbef412696343\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Like Mr Copeland, I believe that marriage is a union between a man and a woman, and I could not support any attempt to amend the Marriage Act to accommodate marriages between persons of the same sex. Unlike Mr Copeland, however, I cannot support the Marriage (Gender Clarification) Amendment Bill. The reason is that it is misconceived. First, there is nothing to clarify\u2014as the title states\u2014because the law is clear. Same-sex marriages are not permitted under the Marriage Act. This has been clear since the decision of the Court of Appeal in Quilter v Attorney-General, not of the High Court as the explanatory note to the bill mistakenly states. That case held that the wording and the scheme of the Act could not accommodate marriages between persons of the same sex. The passage of the Civil Union Act has further clarified the position. That Act was a response to the decision of the Court of Appeal in the Quilter case. In those circumstances the law is clear, not uncertain. As the Greeks would say, why pile Pelion on Ossa? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 5 is flawed. I think it draws on section 88EA of the Australian Marriage Act. The section states that a union solemnised in a foreign country must not be recognised as a marriage in Australia. Clause 5 of this bill impacts on conflict of laws rules on recognition of overseas marriages. The reason that we and other countries have such rules is to respect comity between nations. Under the Marriage Act certain formalised foreign marriages are deemed to have been as valid in New Zealand as marriages that are solemnised in New Zealand in accordance with the Act. In common law, other foreign unions will also be accepted as valid in New Zealand, subject to any public policy against such acceptance. Given the decision in the Quilter case, and the application of conflict of laws principles to validation of foreign marriages, a formal foreign same-sex union is most unlikely to be accepted as a valid marriage in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 5 does not deal with issues of validity, but it denies recognition to foreign same-sex unions. Mr Copeland has not explained to the House what \u201Crecognition\u201D means. There are examples in the common law where a relationship may be recognised as conferring some incident of marital status without validating the underlying relationship itself as a marriage. So the clause has a longer reach than is necessary merely to avoid validation of foreign same-sex unions, and it may undo other recognition of such unions. For those reasons, the Australian precedent should not be followed in this country. This is a difficult area of law\u2014one that I think, in due course, will need to be dealt with at the international level. I think the Hague Conference on Private International Law, where New Zealand is represented, will need to address this issue. It is not an area where countries should move unilaterally for domestic political reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EMr Copeland contends that the Quilter decision could be overturned as a result of foreign decisions that permit same-sex marriage. I do not think he is right, for the reasons I have given. He fails to understand that any challenge would have to be commenced in the High Court, then go to the Court of Appeal, and thence to the Supreme Court. To get a case through the system could take anything up to 2\u00BD years. That would provide Parliament with plenty of time to legislate, if it was felt necessary. Some people, like my friend Mr Worth, say that the bill sends an important message to New Zealand families that marriage is important. With respect, I would have thought New Zealanders would know that without the need for Parliament to start sending legislative messages. In any event, I have an innate distaste for feel-good legislation. Messages of that kind should be left to priests and pastors. Some people contend that there is no harm in codification of the law. I have always thought it would be desirable to have a marriage and relationships code that brings together all statutes that deal with families and relationships, but I do not think piecemeal codification works\u2014a point illustrated by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to say to Mr Copeland that we have all received correspondence in recent days from people who genuinely believe that same-sex marriage is just around the corner. In promoting this bill, Mr Copeland has mistaken the true legal position. As a consequence, he has caused many New Zealanders unnecessary distress. Same-sex marriage is not around the corner, for the reasons I have given, and relitigating issues that the House dealt with last year is not in the public interest. I oppose the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u002206cb5ac6fb084559bb2938395962f4ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206cb5ac6fb084559bb2938395962f4ae\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the first reading of the Marriage (Gender Clarification) Amendment Bill. When I was preparing for this speech I was reminded, strangely enough, of a conversation I had with Dianne Yates about the Animal Welfare (Restriction on Docking of Dogs\u2019 Tails) Bill that she had sponsored. She explained to me that when researching the practice of docking dogs\u2019 tails she discovered that an old attempt at tax evasion was the reason that dogs\u2019 tails were docked\u2014dogs were taxed and they were counted by their tails. Over time that practice has become a preference for those who breed dogs for showing. I mention that because it is the historical context of marriage that motivates me to support the codification of the Marriage Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWhen one strips away the modern constructs of Hollywood, the baubles associated with wedding days, and even the addition of religious involvement in the valuing of marriage by religious organisations, one comes up with the way societies originally managed and protected the human breeding pool, and protected the natural family environment for the nurture and raising of offspring. The current legal constraints around marriage still reflect this, which is why, currently, marriage firstly, is between two people; secondly, is heterosexual; and, thirdly, is not allowed to be incestuous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EPrior to the advances in birth control, getting married was all about having children. It was not just about consenting adults but about the beginning of a family. Marriage and parenthood, traditionally, were inseparable concepts. Both my mother\u2019s and grandmother\u2019s generation referred to \u201Choneymoon babies\u201D who were born 9 months after the wedding. So marriage was an arrangement between breeding-capable couples. Even as recently as 50 years ago the need to codify the Marriage Act would have been considered nonsense, because the link between breeding and marriage was an automatic assumption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EToday, with the advances of medical science\u2014with contraception and new birth technology developments\u2014the traditional boundaries of marriage have been challenged, and, in some jurisdictions, have been redefined. Single-sex couples are now able to employ these more recent technologies to construct new types of social parenting arrangements. Sperm and egg donors are now no longer just helping heterosexual couples with fertility challenges but are providing the means by which both un-partnered women and gay and lesbian couples can have children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESocial parenting arrangements were traditionally resorted to when natural parenting arrangements had fallen over for some reason, and they took the form of kinship care and adoption. Today, social parenting arrangements are many and varied, and it is not my intention in the time I have left to make comments on the desirability of those new trends. But I want to suggest that the medical and scientific climate around the provisions of marriage have changed considerably, and other jurisdictions are responding in a variety of ways to those changes. Members of this House, as elected representatives, need to decide tonight whether the voters who put them here want marriage preserved, as tradition makes clear, as a social convention for a man and a woman with the natural breeding potential that they represent, or whether their voters want them to leave open the options so that marriage can be applied to non-breeding arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe chance to publicly declare and celebrate commitment, and to afford legal protection, is now available through civil unions. Marriage no longer enjoys any form of elitist status, but it does still represent a distinctiveness that the voters who sent me to this House want to see preserved. So I will support the first reading and any consecutive readings of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff6619d6c13d4fddbea3afc40b3e71f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff6619d6c13d4fddbea3afc40b3e71f1\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call to state a few concerns I have and why I will be supporting the Marriage (Gender Clarification) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAs a first principle, I say that this is members\u2019 day. It is members\u2019 opportunity to seek to enshrine in legislation things for which they are representing a constituency\u2014or, certainly, that they have the impression they are representing. So I think this House has a responsibility to consider very seriously whether a bill such as this should at least pass its first reading, to give members of the public an opportunity to state their preference. We have heard from the member in charge of the bill, Mr Copeland, that 57 percent of New Zealanders would support this bill. I have no doubt that the figure is somewhere near that, whatever the exact nature of it. So I believe we do have a responsibility to give the public an opportunity to comment, by passing this bill in its first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI make no claims to have any great knowledge of the law, and I listened with interest to both Katherine Rich and Chris Finlayson. They may well be right. So why would the public wish to see the Quilter decision codified? I will summarise some of the comments that have been made in this debate. The Hon Lianne Dalziel stated that she would not be supporting the bill. One of the reasons she gave was that it could be discriminatory against the children of parents in a variety of relationships outside the norm. If, in fact, the Quilter decision stands, there will be no married same-sex couples upon which that discrimination will fall, so there is some confusion about that particular item. The Quilter decision is enshrined in a law report and it will not be changed. We had some contradictory, or at least ambiguous, comments from Lianne Dalziel. Then the Green Party member Metiria Turei got up and said she would not be supporting the bill, because she has a definite programme to ensure no discrimination in relationships. So it is exactly her plan to see marriage for same-sex couples. Is there any reason why, then, the public at large wants to see this matter codified? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI say that this bill is not wasting time, despite the claims of members. This is members\u2019 day, and we are not wasting the Government\u2019s or Parliament\u2019s time. I have to say that, having being in this House for more than three terms, I have noted on the odd occasion behaviour that could be termed as wasting Parliament\u2019s time. When we have a significant proportion of the public saying that we need actually to codify this matter in legislation, and that it needs an opportunity to speak to it in a submission process at a select committee, then this bill is certainly not wasting time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EMr Copeland, the promoter of the bill, also mentioned situations where law reports in various countries had been overturned. I repeat that certainly the situations in Canada, South Africa, and the state of Massachusetts saw the expected outcome of law reports turned over. In times gone by, this Parliament has codified law reports to take all possible ambiguity out of a situation. I say that this is an opportunity for members to listen to what the public are saying, and if we are wrong, if the submissions overwhelmingly condemn this legislation, then what harm is done? We will have listened to what I believe a majority of New Zealanders are saying. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00224298b284f4f44a7082c7391668356da2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224298b284f4f44a7082c7391668356da2\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I rise as a member of Parliament who has a very conservative voting record on these kinds of issues, as evidenced by my opposition to the Prostitution Reform Bill, to the Death with Dignity Bill, and to attempts to bring in Easter Friday and Easter Sunday trading, and by my recently taking over sponsorship of a bill to raise the drinking age. It is fair to say that, like a fellow conservative MP such as your good self, Mr Deputy Speaker, I supported the Civil Union Bill on the basis of compassion and fairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge and compliment the very fine contributions made by the senior National Party front-bencher Katherine Rich and her colleague Chris Finlayson, who I believe made very considered and worthy contributions to the debate tonight. I particularly reflect on the very wise words of the front-bencher Katherine Rich in terms of some of the debate around the Civil Union Bill and the effects of that debate, which certainly caused much pain and anguish to many New Zealanders and their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EAs a conservative I am opposing this bill for the simple reason that there is an old saying \u201CIf it\u2019s not broken, don\u2019t fix it\u201D. Since the formation of a nation State in New Zealand, all legal forms of marriage have been between a man and a woman. I certainly agree that marriage is a bedrock relationship in our society, but I do not intend to support the Marriage (Gender Clarification) Amendment Bill, because I do not consider it to be a good use of Parliament\u2019s time to restate what actually is, when so much new legislation needs to be dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThis bill proposes to amend the Marriage Act 1955 by stating that parties to a marriage must be one man and one woman, and by forbidding marriage between persons of the same gender. The legal position, the facts, and the reality\u2014what is\u2014were clearly stated by the Court of Appeal in Quilter v Attorney-General in 1998. The Court of Appeal held that the Marriage Act 1955 applies to marriage between a man and a woman only, and that that restriction does not constitute discrimination. Therefore, I repeat that under the current law, two people of the same gender cannot obtain a marriage licence, and any such purported marriage would not be recognised in law and would be declared void. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe bill proposes to amend the Marriage Act to state that a union solemnised in a foreign country between two people of the same gender is not recognised as a marriage in New Zealand. No overseas marriage or civil union between two people of the same gender can be recognised as a marriage under New Zealand law. However, some of those overseas relationships may be recognised as civil unions under the civil union legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EAs a conservative member of Parliament, I will also make a personal statement to this House\u2014and I think my sentiment is shared by many others who are opposing this bill\u2014that in the highly unlikely event that there was ever a successful legal challenge to the current law, then I certainly would support an appropriate amendment to the Marriage Act to reinforce the fact that the Act is solely intended for a male and a female in a committed relationship. I think it is highly unlikely that we will ever see that day, and I cannot see the point of changing or interfering with what is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI simply restate: it is what is. Under the current law and, dare I say it, since time immemorial\u2014since the formation of legal systems in this country\u2014the Marriage Act has been intended for a man and a woman. That is the current state. I see no reason whatsoever to change it. I compliment, as I said before, some very considered and worthwhile contributions to this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002209a62b604ac540d99a8b0be1cad76ee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209a62b604ac540d99a8b0be1cad76ee2\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I begin my wrap-up in terms of the debate on this bill by paying tribute to my former colleague Larry Baldock. It was Larry Baldock who drafted this bill and submitted it to the ballot. It was drawn from the ballot in his name and, but for the want of what turned out to be about another 50 minutes, it would have been voted on in the last Parliament. I want to say that as far as the people of New Zealand are concerned\u2014and Larry Baldock listened very carefully to their voices, as I and others have\u2014the reality is that tonight they are interested in only one thing, which is whether members of this House are prepared to affirm and confirm traditional marriage as being between a man and a woman. People will make their judgment in terms of that reality, depending on the way members of this Parliament vote tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe fine legal arguments that were voiced here tonight, which sometimes were quite sophisticated or which sometimes had a degree of sophistry, are not necessary on a first reading; that is why we have a select committee process. Yes, there are issues in the wording of some of the subsidiary clauses of the bill that might need to be revisited in the select committee deliberation. But the big picture\u2014the true intent and heart of this bill\u2014is a very simple proposition: do people believe that marriage in New Zealand should continue for future generations to be strictly and only between one man and one woman? Once all the rhetoric that has been spoken here tonight has faded, and once all the bluff and bluster has finished, the people of New Zealand will remember one thing, and one thing only, from tonight: how members of this Parliament voted on this bill. Were they for marriage or were they against marriage? That factor will form the judgment the electors of this country will come to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI believe firmly that marriage should, for all future generations of this country, remain a relationship between a man and a woman. Why do I say that? The reason is that marriage is a solid rock. It is a tradition that, as I mentioned earlier, has endured for generations. It is in the interests of creating stable, beautiful, adult relationships between a man and a woman. It safeguards the interests of children, particularly the right of the child\u2014the right of every child\u2014to have both a mum and a dad. Of course, there are many situations in life where that is not so. For example, solo mothers tell me to keep saying what I am saying, because their circumstances are not ideal and not the circumstances they wanted. They say that it is not great being poor or bringing up kids on their own. It is difficult and tough, and they only wish that their lives could have been different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe need to continue to put that reality before this nation\u2014that marriage is the best model. It is the best model for spouses, for children, and for society. If members in this House were serious about our appalling social statistics in terms of child violence, imprisonment rates, and fatherless families, then we\u2014like people in Australia\u2014would have no hesitation in saying that marriage was important. I believe that it is important that Parliament, this House, speaks with a clear voice. To those who say that Parliament should not have any say in this matter, I would ask them what on earth leadership is about. Is Parliament to give a lead on this matter or not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ETomorrow, once the people of this nation know the names of members of this Parliament who voted for and against this bill, they will make their own judgment. They will express that judgment, as we all know, in the reality of the 2008 election. To those members who tonight decide to second-guess the many, many hundreds of thousands of people who specifically voted for their parties on the basis that those members would bring social engineering to an end\u2014and I am particularly speaking now of the National Party, which has even appointed an eradicator of political correctness\u2014I say that those people will find that disappointing in the extreme, and I believe that as a consequence we will see a great change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe have not heard the last of this matter by any means. This issue will not go away, because the people of New Zealand want members to speak clearly. I appeal to Parliament once again tonight to speak with a clear voice and support this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7963d1ff1354202bc655fc95bdee9bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7963d1ff1354202bc655fc95bdee9bb\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. National will be voting on this bill by way of a split party vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224507677ef86040518396fe3fdb82f393\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for informing me of that. That is a way we can proceed, and those parties that are voting by means of a split party vote will recall Standing Order 144(2) and deliver the names to the Table immediately after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ffcac6903cd3451bb4d247bb8ce711ff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Marriage (Gender Clarification) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 1 (Field); New Zealand National 36 (Ardern, Auchinvole, Bennett D, Bennett P, Blue, Borrows, Brash, Brownlee, Carter D, Carter J, Clarkson, Coleman, Collins, Dean, English, Foss, Goodhew, Goudie, Guy, Hayes, Heatley, Hutchison, King C, Mapp, McCully, Peachey, Roy E, Ryall, Smith L, Smith N, Tisch, Tolley, Tremain, Wagner, Wilkinson, Worth); New Zealand First 5 (Brown, Paraone, Peters, Stewart, Woolerton); United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 73\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49 (Barker, Barnett, Benson-Pope, Beyer, Burton, Carter C, Chadwick, Choudhary, Clark, Cosgrove, Cullen, Cunliffe, Dalziel, Duynhoven, Dyson, Fairbrother, Fenton, Gallagher, Goff, Gosche, Hartley, Hawkins, Hereora, Hobbs, Hodgson, Horomia, Hughes, Jones, King A, Laban, Mackey, Maharey, Mahuta, Mallard, Moroney, O\u2019Connor, Okeroa, Parker, Pettis, Pillay, Ririnui, Robertson, Samuels, Street, Sutton, Swain, Tizard, Wilson, Yates); New Zealand National 12 (Blumsky, Connell, Finlayson, Groser, Henare, Key, Power, Rich, Simich, te Heuheu, Williamson, Wong); New Zealand First 2 (Donnelly, Mark); Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c5c0d787f534df8b85559711b47841e\u0022\u003ELaw Practitioners (Corporatisation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d357849527ab439d94d39dcc5afa8729\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022f990f10dacd14bb8b63646b9d99e6dd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f990f10dacd14bb8b63646b9d99e6dd7\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Law Practitioners (Corporatisation) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. It is my intention to have the bill referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee with a standard 6-month report-back time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill has been a long time in coming to its first reading. I managed to find in my files a press release dated Thursday, 19 October 2000, when the bill was first suggested by myself. That just goes to show that we have now been on this matter for over 5 years. Darren Hughes, the junior Government whip, would do well to show such tenacity towards a piece of legislation that he cares about and brings by way of a member\u2019s bill to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill allows law firms, which must currently practise as sole practitioners or in partnerships, to have the option of practising as a company under the Companies Act 1993. It seems that in contemporary circumstances, where liability is effectively limited in many partnerships, and law firms require equity capital for their expansion, it is important to provide options for greater flexibility in structure and ownership, consistent with the maintenance of the professional standards that have always applied to the legal profession. Accounting firms currently have the ability to practise in a corporate structure, and it is my contention, through this bill, that law firms should also enjoy such flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe bill makes amendments to the Law Practitioners Act 1982 that will permit lawyers to operate legal companies. As I said earlier, the bill is neutral as to the model that lawyers elect to use; it simply provides lawyers with another option as to the way they structure their affairs. It puts lawyers operating as companies on the same footing as lawyers practising alone or in law firms operating under the Partnership Act 1908, and it is important to note that there is no change in the ability of lawyers to continue to operate on the traditional basis. I want to make two or three points very clear about that. The first is that the directors of legal companies, but not their shareholders, will be required to hold current practising certificates and will be subject, like partners in law firms, to requirements under the Law Practitioners Act relating to matters such as trust account maintenance, professional discipline, and contributions to the solicitors fidelity guarantee fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Justice, Mark Burton, has indicated to me that the Labour Party will support the referral of this matter to the select committee in the first instance, and I am grateful for that opportunity. I understand that pieces of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill may well supersede parts of this bill, although my view is that some of the emphasis is slightly different in that bill. I have explained to the Minister that if indeed the select committee makes a determination that one bill renders the other redundant, then at that point there would be no point in continuing with the progress of this particular bill. However, that is not a decision for me to make. Neither is it a decision, quite frankly, for the Minister to make. It is a decision for the select committee to make as it begins its deliberations, hopefully after the bill makes it to a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAll the parties I have spoken to in the Chamber tonight\u2014I have not had an opportunity to speak to representatives of the M\u0101ori Party\u2014have indicated that they will support the passage of the bill to a select committee. Hone Harawira is now indicating that the M\u0101ori Party will also do so. That is very helpful, and I thank him. So with that unanimous support, this bill will be rushing to a select committee on a members\u2019 evening. After only 5 years in the making, it will now speedily make its way to a select committee for a swift resolution and return to the Chamber\u2014by which time Clayton Cosgrove will probably be 65 or 70. Let us hope that the matter moves more swiftly in the select committee than it has in my short time in politics over the 5 years since I issued the first press release on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAt the time the bill was drafted, I wrote to a large number of firms and law societies, large, small, metropolitan, and provincial, to seek their views on the legislation. The result was, from memory, quite overwhelmingly supportive of this option being made available to practising law firms. On that basis, I will resume my seat and wait for the contributions from other parties in the House, which, no doubt\u2014like the passage of this bill\u2014will be swift from this point on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022efbbc89af1404ab5a28c35bbd6449671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efbbc89af1404ab5a28c35bbd6449671\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to confirm, on behalf of the Minister of Justice, that the Labour caucus will support the referral of the bill to the Justice and Electoral Committee. However, I am hopeful that the bill will not be required to be progressed beyond the passage of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill, which is No. 16 on the Order Paper. The member may not have been aware that that bill has been reported back from the select committee. I had the privilege of sitting on the Justice and Electoral Committee and having a little bit to do with the detail and some of the amendments that went through it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am certainly looking forward to the passage of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill, because it contains some very important amendments to the law that a number of people are waiting for rather impatiently\u2014like the Council of Legal Education and various others who have a great interest in progress being made\u2014and I do hope that those who have been somewhat dilatory in their attitude towards the passage of the bill might well rethink that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, because there is no provision in the current law to allow for incorporation\u2014so this is not a position that is inconsistent with our previous decision; the law does not provide for law firms to incorporate\u2014we will enable a bill that would allow for incorporation to proceed to select committee. But again, I am very hopeful that by the time the select committee has considered this bill the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill will have passed through all its remaining stages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill itself deals with a workable regime for incorporated law firms. Maybe the member might like to clarify this in his right of reply, but I understand that there are two differences between his bill and the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill\u2014that is, lawyers actively involved in the provision of regulated services are the only ones who can be directors of the company, or hold voting shares under the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. Now, that is not a limitation that the member would impose. The holding of non-voting shares under the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill extends to the relatives of those who provide regulated services, as well. So there is quite a distinction, and maybe there is room to consider those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut the other issue that is probably of more concern to me, as I come from a legal background, is that, as I understand it, the member\u2019s bill would allow multidisciplinary law firms, which is contrary to the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. But, again, it would be good to have a clarification in the response from the member. I have been concerned for a long time that multidisciplinary practices compose risks, as some types of occupations are quite incompatible with the professional standards that lawyers and conveyancers must comply with. I had quite a lengthy discussion about this in the select committee over the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. When qualified lawyers are actually operating, without a practising certificate, as employment consultants or immigration consultants, and they describe themselves as employment law specialists or immigration law specialists, they acquire the standing amongst their client base, who are in fact totally unprotected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWe have strengthened the provisions in the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill\u2014which is why I would encourage the National Party to get on with supporting us in getting that through the House\u2014around those who hold themselves out to have particular standards in order to comply with certain professional bodies\u2019 requirements, but do so by the nature of their description rather than the actuality. They certainly do not have practising certificates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMaintaining legal professional privilege in a multidisciplinary environment is also another problem. If the member could clarify that, that certainly would be of great comfort. So the Government will support the bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, consistent with its objective of enabling law firms to incorporate, but we do anticipate that the bill will not need to progress once the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill is enacted\u2014something that we urge the National Party to assist us with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b592b9ed5b7e448cb53bea5386459a52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b592b9ed5b7e448cb53bea5386459a52\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E We are going to support this bill. It makes sense to me and my colleagues that lawyers should be able to form a company and operate as a company under the Companies Act 1993. We are told by people who are more acquainted with the legal profession than, certainly, I am that that could be a significant advantage. I have no doubt that the select committee will examine the bill in detail. It is a little sad that this bill is likely to be overtaken by the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. If I heard correctly from the honourable member who has just resumed her seat, it is likely to be overtaken in a matter of weeks, by the sounds of it. I have some sympathy for Simon Power, who has waited 5 years for this bill to get here and now it will last only about 10 minutes. But New Zealand First will certainly support the referral of this bill to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf93109093f04de0a650931874dbd25d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf93109093f04de0a650931874dbd25d\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Truly, this is magic legislation\u2014magnificent in content, well typed, and not provoking much debate in this House because of its undoubted and intrinsic merit. But I would say this. This bill is necessary because of gross Government neglect and delay with the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. Those of us who have been on the Justice and Electoral Committee have suffered the tedium of sitting on that committee, doing our work, and watching the snail-pace progress of that legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI see on today\u2019s Order Paper in the Government orders of the day that the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill sits at position 16. It is stalled by the Government, with the Committee stage yet to come. It is interesting to reflect on why that is. My own theory is that it is because it is useful for the Government to hold that legislation over the Law Society by dint of saying, in effect, that if the Law Society is quiet, the Government will give further consideration to the advancement of that legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhat Mr Power proposes in his Law Practitioners (Corporatisation) Amendment Bill is eminently sensible, because for a considerable period of time law firms have not had the ability to operate within a corporate model. Other stratagems have had to be resorted to, such as trading trusts and the like. Just as other professions have moved to adopt vehicles appropriate for the delivery of professional services, so too should lawyers have that opportunity. In every respect, Mr Power is to be commended for this fine piece of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00228703be10aaf143ad8dcd189de6f416b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228703be10aaf143ad8dcd189de6f416b1\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is very important legislation, and my colleague Simon Power has spent a lot of time on its preparation. As he said, the bill had its genesis some time ago. My colleague Dr Richard Worth has articulated a very full understanding of the bill, given his expertise and knowledge of such legal matters. Another learned colleague, Chris Finlayson, has decided not to take a call, so as to enable me to speak, and I certainly acknowledge that and thank him. We would like to see this bill passed before 10 o\u2019clock. Therefore I will conclude, so that the architect of the bill can have his right of reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293a6f1d5f34b4f309333893eb5e1503c\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Power has a 5-minute right of reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022292906ef32d84f72a6b63de04a8ee23a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022292906ef32d84f72a6b63de04a8ee23a\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E It will not be 5 minutes. I thank the House for its support for passing this bill. I have to say it is good to have it off my shoulders; it has been a burden, actually, for 5 years! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI want to assure the Hon Lianne Dalziel that the issue she raises about multidisciplinary practices, and about others holding themselves out under legal practice umbrellas as specialising in areas of law without practising certificates, is not an intended provision of the bill. The House can rest assured that in the event I am required to appear before the select committee, I will certainly be making the point that there is no intention in the bill to allow that to occur. The bill is very definite about the fact that the same professional standards would apply as they currently do in a partnership or sole practitioner\u2019s environment. I thank the House for its support on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051207028e521b0a7b4a8aa0242aa81110f80a000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.54 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"